The safe religion, or, Three disputations for the reformed catholike religion against popery proving that popery is against the Holy Scriptures, the unity of the catholike church, the consent of the antient doctors, the plainest reason, and common judgment of sense it self / by Richard Baxter.

QUERY . Whether the Reformed Catholike Christian Religion , commonly called Protestant , be a safe way to Salvation ?

THE great business of the Divel the Enemy of Mankinde , is to keep man from that Salvation , which Christ hath so dearly purchased , so graciously offered , and hath appointed us such excellent helpes to attain : To which end it is his first endeavor , that men may not know or Believe that there is such a Felicity , and what it is , and how much to be desired ; and his next , to keep them from knowing the way to it , and the last is , to keep them from walking in that way when they know it . By the first means he keeps from Salvation , all Atheists and Heathens that know not , or believe not the life to come : by the second , all Infidels that Believe not Christ to be the way , and all Hereticks that Believe not those Truths which are of absolute necessity in subordination to Christ : and by the third , all Hypocrites and unsanctified , ungodly , impenitent men , in the visible Church , that yet have a superficial Belief of these Truths .

Our Question in hand is for the escaping the second of these snares , by discovering which is the safe way to Salvation ? The Policy of the Devil hath always endeavoured to hinder the world from knowing this way , by these two means : First , if it be possible by keeping them in utter darkness , that this way may not be revealed to them , or being revealed , may not be understood : Secondly , or if that will not do , by making such a number of by-ways on every side , that the true and onely way may hardly be discerned . And this is his end in raising so many Heresies ; and this is the course he takes to mislead them that have escaped from the darkness of Infidelity . He begun this trade betime , even in the dayes of the Apostles : They saw the multifarious off-spring of the Deceiver sprouting up apace in their own times : yet did it never enter into their thoughts to tell the Church , that by this , all Heresies should be known , That the Church of Rome should condemne them , or to send it down to all posterity as the true touchstone to tell them which was the onely right way among all these Heresies , to wit , That which is believed by the P●pe or Church of Rome . This had been a ready and easie way for the Apostles to have prescribed , and for us to have received , if it had been true . It might have saved them much labor in giving us that Body of sacred Doctrine which they have made indeed the Touchstone of the safe way ; and it might have spared us much more labor of searching and studying which is the way ; and we might all have sent to Rome , and been resolved without any more ado . Surely the Apostles were not so envious to our ease and safety , as to have silenced this easie way if they had known it themselves . But as every Heretick when he findeth out a New way , doth condemne the Old , as inconsistent with his New , so do the Papists ; Since this new way hath been cryed up , that [ No man can come to heaven but by Rome ] it is their business to deter people from any other way , and to that end , to tell them that there is no safe way but theirs . As the Quakers tell us , that there is no way to Heaven but theirs , and some * * Much contrary to Damascene , who saith that the Rebaptized do crucifie Christ again , Orthod. fid. li. 4. c. 5. p. ( mihi ) 296. ( Though I suppose he is as far on the other side . ) Anabaptists say there is no way to Heaven but by being Baptized ( again as they are ) so do the Papists tell us that there is no way to Heaven but by Believing in the Pope and Church of Rome , and obeying him as the head of the Church . I never saw the place , but sure that Town hath some admirable excellency in it , that the God of Heaven should so much set his heart upon it , as to endow it with such a stup●ndious Prerogative , that no man should be saved from everlasting Torment that doth not Believe in the Bishop of that City , and obey him as the universal head . It s a wonder to me , that he that set not his heart so much on his Temple at Jerusalem , or on that chosen people , as not to forsake them for their sins , and that hath the Heavens for his Throne , and to whom the Sun it self is as Darkness , should yet be so taken with a Town called Rome , built and long inhabited by Idolaters , defiled with the blood of thousands of Martyrs , against which the fouls under the Altar cry out [ How long Lord Holy and true wilt thou not avenge our blood &c. ] as to ordain that no man in the remotest parts of the world , even the Antipodes that never heard of the name of Rome , can be saved , though he should never so much believe in Jesus Christ , unless he Believe in the Bishop of this Town and obey him when yet with Andradius and other Papists , it s a hard question whether a man may not be saved in those heathen Countries without believing in Christ himself . Is it not a marvaile that we never read that Rome was once named by Christ himself , and that it never was put into our Creed as one of the necessary Articles to salvation ? especially when we find there the Catholike Church , and Communion of Saints , which sure would have been some way intimated to be the Romane Church or that which is headed by their Bishop , if it had been so indeed . I find but three names ( strictly so called ) in the Creed , and the Popes or Romane Churches is none of them : One is Jesus Christ , and the other is hers that bore him , and the third is his , that Judged him to death ; and this indeed was a Romane name , and if the honor of it in the Creed will do them any service , let them make their best of it .

But however , this advantage the enemy of the Church hath got by it , that the new Romane Title , hath made the old Catholike Title seem questionable to many , and now so great is the audacity of the usurping Pope , that he not onely questioneth whether any Christians shall be saved that believe not in him as well as in Christ , but he flatly denyeth it ; and what he cannot get by Scripture and reason , he would get by threatning and terrible words to affright the simple , telling them that Protestants are not of the true Church or Religion , nor in a safe way to salvation , because they will not be the subjects of the Pope of Rome : Well , we shall briefly prove our way to be safe , if not to the satisfaction of perverse , ambitious , or passionate and prejudiced men , yet I doubt not to the satisfaction of all humble , impartial , diligent persons , that are willing to know the truth , and deny themselves , that they may know it , and do not stifle it by their lusts , or imprison it in unrighteousness in their byassed resolutions . And first we shall briefly open the termes .

By * *

Religion in the first sence seems to be ( as Martinius ) propriè actio ejus qui res divinas studiose Relegit , pictatis ergo , though the word be thence variously used .

( 2 ) Lactantius saith ( Instit. li. 4. c. 28. ) Hac conditione gignimur , ut generanti nos Deo justa & debita obsequia prebcamus , hunc s●lum noverimus hunc sequamur . Hoc vinculo pietatis obstricti Deo & Religati sumus un●e ipsa Religio n●men accepit ; non ut Cicero interpretatus est a Relegendo . Melius id nomen Lucretius interpretatus est , qui ait , Religionum se nodos exolvere . Hierome in c. 9. Amos , & August . de via Rel. c. 55. & Retract . l. 1. c. 13. & li. 10. de Civit. Dei . c. 4. are for the same derivation .

(3) Macrob. Saturn . li. 3. c. 3. Servius Sulpitius Religionem esse dictam tradidit quae propter sanctitatem aliquam remota ac seposita a nobis fit , quasi a relinquendo dicta , &c. vid. Martin in verb. Sometime Religious is taken for the same with sacred , and so is applyed to Persons , Actions , Things , Places , Times , &c. we here take it for a prescribed way to salvation , or that which by us is Believed or professed to be such : and this is our Religion .

[ Religion ] here we mean , the Doctrine de credendis & agendis , about matters to be believed and practised , which we hold and profess as of Divine Revelation , and injunction , in order to Gods Glory and our salvation . For though this be but the means towards those holy Affections and practices which are of neerer necessity to our salvation , as being the necessary effects of the former , yet is it not this later ; bu● the former that we are now inquiring after : Not of Subjective , but Objective Religion : not of the fides quâ , but the fides quae ●creditur ; not whether we be true to our Religion and so truly Religious , but whether we be of the True Religion , or hold that Doctrine which will save them that are true to it , in Belief and Practice . I shall not much stop the plain Reader therefore with any further and unnecessary inquiry into the Etymology of the word Religion , which some derive (1) a Relegendo , some (2) a Religando , and some (3) a Relegando & Relinquendo : But as long as we understand what is meant by the word , we shall not stick at the Etymology or propriety .

By the [ Reformed ] Religion , we mean , the Christian Catholike Religion , as it is separated from Popery : and so by this word we do distinguish our Churches from the Romane Sectaries . For , it is not every Reformation ( much less every thing so called ) that here we have respect to , but the Reformation by which we cast off Popery it self , which because it was in one Countrey done by a solemn Protestation of certain Princes and Cities against Popery , hath been since called the Protestant Reformation , and our Churches the Protestant Churches and our Religion , the Protestant Religion .

Our Religion is called Catholike , because it is ●he Religion of the Catholicke Church , which is so ●alled a 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , because it is universal , consisting not onely of Jews and their Proselites , as heretofore , nor of one Town like Rome , and those that will be ●he subjects of the Bishop of that Town , as the Papists dream , but of all that Believe in the name of Christ through the whole world , holding the Foundation or points of absolute necessity to salvation , and not again denying them by any such contradicting Errors , as will not consist with the practical belief of the said Fundamentals .

As that was called A Catholicke Epistle , which was directed to the whole Church , and not to any one person or people ; so is that the Catholike Church which containeth all Christians .

As Austin was wont to describe it against the Donatists ( who would have confined it to the adversaries of Caecilianus and followers of Donatus in Africke ) that the true Church was that which was spread over the world by the Gospel which was commanded to be preached to all Nations , beginning at Jerusalem : so do we .

By the Christian Religion , I suppose we are agreed , is meant the Religion of Believers in Christ , or that whereof Christ is the Foundation and prescriber , and faith in him the first act , which must contain all the essential parts ( though it may possibly want many integrals ) or else it is not to be called the Christian Religion . They that were called Christs Disciples were afterwards called Christians first at Antioch , Act. 11.26 . To be a Christian therefore , and to be Christs Disciple is all one .

Note therefore , that as the word Religion denoteth the sum of doctrines and way of salvation absolutely necessary , so it is but One in all the worl● ( that 's true and saving ) and that is the Christian Religion . So that if a Heathen , Jew or Mahometane ask me what Religion I am of ; in opposition to theirs , I will say , I am a Christian , and not onely that I am a Protestant : But if a Christian aske me what Religion I am of , I will say , I am a Reformed Catholike Christian : for such a question in the mouth of a Christian usually implieth that I am a Christian , and intendeth the discovery of what sort or party of Christians I belong to . But indeed Christianity is not many but one , and therefore Christians as Christians are not of many Religions , but of one : No nor Christians at all , that are truely such , if by Religion you mean , a systeme of doctrines in the main , necessary or sufficient to salvation ( or conceited so to be : ) For , as there is no such Body of Doctrine but Christs , so no man that is indeed a Christian , can believe that there is , seeing such a Belief contradicteth the essentia's of Christianity . But among those that call themselves Christians , there are some Hereticks that deny or plainly subvert some part of the essentials of Christian Religion . And among those that are Christians , some have such dangerous corruptions as do much hazard the salvation , and tend to frustrate them of their benefits of the Christian Faith , and these very corruptions they Entitle by the name of Part of their Religion , as the Papists do : In which sence I must say , I am not of the same Religion with them , though I hold the same Christian Doctrine as they , because I hold not their mixture , and add not those corruptio●s which they make a part of their Religion . The name Protestant I reject not , because it was taken up on a just occasion : but I take it to be too extrinsecal , and private to be the standing denomination of my Religion ; as being not taken from the nature of the thing , but from an occasionall action of a few men in one Countrey ; though it intimateth that all of their judgement in all other Countries , do virtually at least make the like Protestation in the maine . I do therefore rather choose to say that I am a Reformed Catholike Christian ; and when I call my self a Protestant , this is my meaning .

So that by the name [ Christian ] which expresseth all my Religion it self Positively considered , I am differenced from Heathens , Jews , Mahometans , and all Infidels , and those ( by some called Hereticks ) who usurpe the name of Christians , while they deny part of the very essentials of Christianity . And by the name [ Catholike ] I adde nothing Positive to the former , but onely intimate that I am of the Universal Church , and negatively exclude my self from all divided parties , or from any that are yet in that Church , and yet take up any dividing titles or wayes therein , though they withdraw not from it ; as they are such , I am none of them , and therefore disclaim ( when I express my Religion ) such private names ; I am no Lutheran , Calvinist , Arminian , Papist , Socinian , &c. but a Catholike .

But yet when I say I am a Reformed Catholike , I purposly disclaim the Corruptions of Popery , and in that word renounce their Errors as such , as by the word Catholike I renounced their Schisme : And so I may agree with Luther , Calvin or any man in Reformation , so far as they hold to the word of God : so that if malicious adversaries will put the name of Sect upon the Catholike verity , and call it by the name of Zuinglianisme , Lutheranisme , Calvinis●● or the like , pretending that it had its spring from these men , they shall not by such unworthy means , remove me from the Catholike Religion , nor yet cause me to own their Corruptions , because they have named the opposition of them as a Heresie Augustine would not turn Donatist , because they named the Catholikes Caecilians ; nor would Prosper turn Pelagian , because they called the Orthodoxe , Predestinarians or Fatalists , nor would Athanasius before them turn Arrian because they called the Orthodoxe Tritheists . It is not other mens fastening upon us the name of a man , or of a Sect that proves us Sectaries , or that we had our Religion originally from that man . Yet do we so much reverence their names , that we rejoyce in their labors for the Church , and bless God for them , and endeavor to imitate them in their holy doctrine and lives , though we make none but Christ the Lord of our Faith

As for the terms of the predicate they need no great explication . By salvation we mean principally Everlasting Glory in Heaven : By the way to it , we mean the means appointed by God for the attaining it . The principal means indeed is Christ himself , who is eminently called , The way , and no man cometh to the Father but by him . But in subordination to Christ all other means are the way .

By a safe way , we mean a way that in suo genere is sufficient to the attainment of the end ; so that all that sincerely are that way shall attain that end ; A certain means of happiness to all that faithfully use it . For it must be known that no Religion ( or sound Doctrines ) will save a man that is not faithful in the reception and improvement of them . A True Religion will not save him that is not True to his Religion . And therefore it is no wonder if multitudes even of Protestants do perish , though their Religion be the onely Religion in the world . For they are not heartily of the Religion which they profess . They have that doctrine which is the seal , and fit enough of its own nature quantum in se to imprint the image of God upon their souls : But if they keep this seal in their Chests , and apply it not effectually to their hearts , they may have unholy hearts and lives , though they profess a holy faith and Religion , and therefore may perish for all that profession ; yea and perish most deplorably because their profession doth aggravate their sin . If a mans Religion ( or believed doctrines ) be bad in the maine , the man himself must needs be bad too ; and therefore no man of such a Religion can be saved : But if a mans Religion ( or professed doctrines ) be never so good it is possible he may be bad that doth profess them : and then no Religion can save a wicked man . So that of the true Religion some are saved , but not all : but of a bad Religion ( in the main ) no man can be good , or be saved .

I come to the Arguments by which I prove the Affirmative , that [ The Reformed Catholike Christian Religion , commonly called Protestant , is a safe way to salvation .

Arg. 1. That Religion which best agreeth with the word of God , above all other Religions in the world , is a safe , yea the safest way to salvation : But the Reformed Catholike Christian Religion commo●●● called Protestant , doth best agree wit● the word of God : therefore it is the safest way to salvation .

One would think among Christians the Major should be unquestionable : But here the corrupt Romanists have presumed to make a new word of God , that so the determination of the case might be impossible , unless we will go up to these Philistines to sharpen our weapons : For they deny the holy Scripture to be the whole word of God , or sufficient to be the Rule for deciding of controversies in matter of saith , and tell us , that unwritten Traditions are another part : And those Traditions are such as are received by the whole Church as delivered down from the Apostles ; and that whole Church is onely the Romane party : and thus do they by their own Authority undertake to damne all the rest of the Christian world , and make themselves onely the Catholike Church : and by this trick of wit they have got one half of Gods word into their closets , and that it is his word , which they say is his word : And that you may know that they are no blabs or revealers of secrets , they have for some hundred years kept this close as a secret to themselves , yea from themselves as well as to us : so that when the common Proverb takes that to be a secret which one or two knows , but not when three know it ; yet these men have a word of God which all the Catholike Church is the keeper of , and yet those that keep it , know it not themselves , much less can we that stand by come to the knowledge of it ; but we must all wait till the last Pope have breathed out his last determination , before the Catholike Church that is said to keep it can come to know what is the whole word of God . And so among them it is ●ome to this pass ; that to be judged by Gods word , is to be judged by the Pope and his entrusted Subjects .

But if any man whatever bring us forth a Tradition , and say , that this is the word of God and came down from the Apostles , we shall desire more then ●his word for the proof of it . And when he brings us as good proof that his Tradition came from the Apostles , as we shall bring him that the Scripture came from them , then will we cheerfully receive his Traditions : but not without sufficient proof , upon the boastings of corrupted interessed men .

As for the Minor , that our Religion is most agreeable to the Scriptures , I shall now say but this to the proof of it . First , we take the Scriptures for the only Test or Rule of our faith and practice ; and we tye not our selves to any other by-rule which may force us to a misunderstanding of it . It is onely the Scripture that we still profess doth contain our Religion : And it is the chief part of the quarrel between us and Rome , that they will not take this word for the perfect or sufficient Rule of Judgement . It is this word onely that we appeal to , and desire to be judged by : And the Papists wilful declining of this Tryal and Judgement doth give any impartial observer sufficient cause to suspect , that they take the Scripture to be against their cause , or else why should they not have as much confidence in it , and commit their cause to it as well as we .

2. To run over every point of difference between us and them , and prove our part by Scripture , would be a very easie work , but it would make this Disputation swell too big . And it is done so largely and often already by our Writers that it is less necessary . If any of them complain for the omission ● this part , let him but assure me that he will stand t● the Judgement of Scripture , and I shall quickly a●● willingly enter the lists with him , and go over th●● part of the task again . In the mean time let it su●●● to tell young Students , that Amesius his Bellarmi●● Enervatus hath spoiled all their cause of this defence and manifested Scripture to be fully against them , i● a little room ; which may spare them the reading o● many larger . And for the meer English Reader , Mr. Ri. Bernard in his book called , Look beyond Luther , in his help annexed to it , hath given a brief and effectual discovery that Scripture is not on their side , in an enumeration and proof of many of the point● in difference , between them and us : which for brevity , I refer them to .

In a word , if the Scripture be true , then that Religion which agreeth with them is a safe way to salvation : But the Papists confess that the Scriptures are true : Therefore , &c. The Major is plain , in that Scripture affirmeth of it self , that it is able to make us wise unto salvation , and furnish us to every good work , and is written that we might believe , and believing might have life in Christs name , &c. Joh. 29.31 . 2 Tim. 3.16 , 17. Of which we have said somewhat in a s●ort Determination of that Question by it self .

Arg. 2. That Religion is a safe way to Salvation , by which the Apostles and the Churches in their days were saved : But by the Reformed Catholike Christian Religion , now called Protestant , were the Apostles and the Churches in their dayes saved : therefore it is a safe way to salvation .

The Major with reasonable men needeth no proof . There is not many Religions but only one that are a ●●fe way to Salvation : and that which the Apostles ●ent in and the Churches in their dayes , is undoub●edly that one . God hath not since taken down ●hat Religion and set up another , and made ●hat way safe to us , which was unsafe to them .

The Minor is thus proved , The Apostles and Churches in their dayes were saved by that Religion which is contained or expressed in the holy Scri●tures : But that is the same with this which is called ●he Protestant Religion . For proof whereof I refer you , and offer as abovesaid . Yeeld once that Scripture shall be the Rule to judge by , and the controversie will soon be ended betwixt us .

And I need not to say but these two things for proof of the point .

1. That their own Writers confess that the Affirmative or Positive part of our Religion , as it was here in England professed , was not against the word of God , contained in the holy Scriptures , only they told us that the Negatives were , of which we shall consider further anon .

2. As it is the great care of the Papists to keep the Scriptures from the people , accounting it the Original of Heresies to have them translated ( as Arboreus and many expresly say ) and burning men to ashes for reading the Scriptures , when God will burn them in Hell , if they obey them not ( which they are not like to do without knowing them ) so experience hath convinced them that where the reading of the Scriptures in a known tongue is but permitted , there doth our Religion most encrease , and Popery decay ; so that if this one means were but permitted , in Spain and Italy as it is whether they will or no in other parts , undoubtedly the Popes Kingdom would soon come down : I say , if they durst but permit men to read the Word of God in a known tongue . They know this well enough , or else they would never so torture poor Christians by the Inquisition for having a Bible in their houses . They have sure some humanity in them , as well as others : and therefore could never go so exceeding far beyond the Turke in Cruelty to Christians themselves , but that they know their whole cause and Kingdom is concerned in it , and if once Scripture get in , they are gone . In a word , multitudes of volumes have already proved that Scripture is against Popery .

Argu. 3. That Religion is a safe way to Salvation , in which the Church in the three or four first Ages at least was saved : But the Church in the three or four first Ages at least was saved in that Catholike Christian Religion , which now is called the Reformed or Protestant Religion : Therefore this is a safe way to salvation .

I mention not the former Ages as if all other following Ages had come to heaven by any other Religion , then the former ; but 1. because in them alone there is a sufficient proof of the Major Proposition : None could be saved in it , especially not so many Ages of the purest times , if it were not a safe way . 2. Because some Popish Errors began among the worser sort of Ambitious , Superstitious Prelates to creep in betimes ; and Popery it self appeared in the world soon after the six hundredth yeer , and was openly established about the thousandth yeer . And according to the degrees of corruption in the Church there was a greater difficulty of salvation , because more impediments : but still those that were saved , were all saved in and by the same Religion of the former Ages ; and if they were saved in any Corruption , yet not By it , but from it , or against it .

As for the proof of the Minor as it requireth a full volume of it self , to produce the particular Testimonies of the Fathers for us , so is it already done in many Volumes : And because the continual clamor of the Papist , is , that Antiquity is on their side , I shall anon disprove them in the fundamenta● difference between them and us , in the following Disputation , about their pretended Soveraignty and Infallibility ; and in other particulars desire them to give some reasonable answer to what is already alledged by Bishop Vsher , Dr Field , and many mor● of our Writers , before they expect we should regard their vain immodest pretences : And still let is be remembred that for all the Positive part of our Religion , they themselves cannot deny but that the Churches still held it . Our Religion is the Doctrine of the Holy Scriptures ; and doubtless that was entertained by all the Churches ; and in that Religion they were saved .

Argu. 4. That Religion is a safe way to Salvation , whose faithful Professors have a promise of Salvation made them by God in his holy word : But such is the Reformed Catholike Christian Religion , commonly called Protestant : therefore it is a safe way to Salvation .

The Major cannot be denyed : for God cannot ●ye , or break his promise . And the Minor is easily proved by parts . Our Religion is to believe all that is in the Holy Scripture to be the true word of God● and more particularly we believe all the Articles ● the Creed called the Apostles , the Nicene Creed , and that of Athanasius ; with the Doctrine of the Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper , an● we confess that in a larger sence other sacred mysteries may be called Sacraments : we believe that every man must unfeignedly Repent of all sin , and t●●● from it to God , and Love God above all , and 〈◊〉 neighbor as himself , and faithfully obey the who●● revealed will of God ; with other parciculars whic● may be seen at large in our several confessions . An● he that faithfully Believeth and doth all this , hath m●ny promises of Salvation in the Scripture , John 3.26 God so loved the world that he gave his only begotte● Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not peris● but have everlasting life . But Protestants believe in him ; and subvert not , nor nullifie that belief by any contradiction ; therefore they shall not peris● ( if they be true to their profession ) but have everlasting life .

Mark . 16.16 Go and preach the Gospel to every creature : he that Believeth and is Baptized shall b● saved . But Protestants believe and are baptized Obj. So Hereticks and wicked men may say . Ans. But not truely : For 1. Hereticks truly so called , that cannot be saved , do not Believe the whole Doctrine which is fundamental or of Absolute necessity to Salvation . Let them shew that by us if they can 2. As Hereticks have not the true faith , so wicke● men are not true in the faith : The former want the fides quae & qua both , that is , both true objectiv● and subjective faith : and the later want true subjective faith at least . And so they will confe●● that many a Pope hath done .

Rom. 10.9 . If thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus , and shalt believe in thy heart that God ●aised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved . For ●ith the heart man believeth to righteousness , and ●ith the mouth confession is made unto salvation . ●ut thus do the Protestants ; therefore they shall be ●●ved .

The Doctrine which Peter preached to Cornelius as sufficient to save him and all his house , Act. 10.14 . ●ut every word of that is believed by the Protestants , ●●erefore it may save them .

The Jaylor is promised , Act. 16.31 . that if he ●●ll believe on the Lord Jesus Christ he shall be sav●● . So Heb. 10.39 . Luk. 8.12 . It is not said , If ●●ou wilt believe in Christ and the Pope of Rome●●ou ●●ou shalt be saved , Act. 4.12 . [ Neither is there ●alvation in any other : for there is none other name ●●der heaven given among men , whereby we must be ●●ved ] Therefore not the Popes name . In Act. 15.1 . ●●s said that certain men came down from Judaea●●●ught ●●●ught the brethren , that except they were circum●●sed after the manner of Moses they could not be ●●ved : against these Paul wrote the Epistle to the ●●latians , where you may see how to think of such : ●nd in the like manner do the Papists teach men , that ●●cept they believe in the Pope of Rome , and except ●●ey believe that there is a Purgatory , and that Im●●es may be worshiped , and that the consecrated ●●st may be adored , and that we may pray to ●●ints departed , and that the Priest must take the ●●crament while the people only look on , and that 〈◊〉 the Priest must receive it in both kinds , and the ●ead alone may serve the people , and that prayers and other Church-service should be in th● Latine tongue when the people understand it not with abundance more of their vile inventions I say , those that believe not all this , they say cann●● be saved : But what say the Apostles , Elders , an● Brethren at Jerusalem , when the former case ● brought before them ? They would not have me tempt God , by putting a yoak on the most of th● Disciples , but believe that through the Grace of th● Lord Jesus Christ , those that used none of th● ceremonies should be saved as well as the Jews , Ver● 10 , 11. And the sum of their Decrees or answer is that . [ Those men who went out from them and tro●bled people with such words , did but subvert the● souls , by saying that they must be circumcised a● keep the Law , and that they gave them no such commandment ; and that it seemed good to the Hol● Ghost and them to lay upon the Gentiles no great●● burden than these necessary things , &c. ] The P●pists thus go out as from the Apostles , pretendi●● an Apostolical Tradition , and impose upon the who●● Christian world a multitude of Ceremonies and D●ctrines as necessary to salvation , which are not ● be found in the holy Scripture . How shall we kno● whether these men indeed have any command ● Tradition from the Apostles for any such course Why 1. Let them shew their Commission , and t●● proof of their Traditions . 2. We fully dispro●● them from the Apostles owne words . It seems go● to the Holy Ghost and the Apostles to lay ● the Gentiles no greater burden then the ●●cessary things here named ; and by these they m● be saved , and they that teach otherwise are p●nounced by them subverters of souls , that had ● ●ommand from them for what they did . But it ●emeth good to the Pope and his faction to lay on ●●e Gentile Churches unnecessary things , and mul●●tudes of them , pretending a necessity of them , ●hen they are none of the four that are here onely ●ade necessary by the Apostles , nor are so made by ●ny other word of Scripture ; and some they impose ●n pain of damnation , which they will not pretend ●o be of necessity themselves . By proportion there●ore we may hence judge , that the Papists are meer ●lse pretenders to Apostolical Tradition , and sub●erters of souls , and that the Protestants may be sa●ed for all their presumptuous sentence to the con●●ary .

The Gospel which Paul preached to the Corinthi●●s , and which they received , was such as would ●●ve them , if they kept it in memory , viz. that ●hrist dyed for our sins according to the Scriptures , ●nd that he was buryed , and that he rose again the ●●ird day , &c. as Paul witnesseth , 1 Cor. 15.1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , ●nd the Corinthians by the beliefe of this Doctrine , ●ere a Church of God and sanctified , 1 Cor. 1.1 , 2. ●ut the Protestants believe all that the Corinthians●●ceived ●●ceived to make them such a Church and sancti●●ed and saved ; Therefore the Protestants are so ●o .

John wrote his Gospel that men might believe , ●nd believing might have life , Joh. 20.30 , 31. There●●re he that believeth that Gospel shall have life : at the Protestants believe all that Gospel ; therefore ●●ey shall have life ( supposing it to be a true faith ●●at worketh by love . ) The Jews that heard Peters●●rmon ●●rmon , Act. 2. were converted and added to the ●hurch ( even thre● thousand souls ) and put into a state of Justification by Believing that Sermon , 〈◊〉 37 , 38 , 41 , 46 , 47. But the Protestants believe ● that Peter preached in that Sermon : there●● they also are of the Church and justified .

And least the Accusing Devil or Papists , sh●● trouble the peace of any of his people , Christ 〈◊〉 protested it with his own mouth , Joh. 5.24 [ Ve●●ly , Verily I say unto you , He that heareth my word 〈◊〉 believed on him that sent me , hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation , but is passed fr●● death to life ] Me thinks this should make any ●●liever tremble at the thoughts of condemning tho● that Christ hath protested shall not be conde●ned .

Christ hath promised that all those that receive ● words , and in whom his words abide , shall be beloved of the Father and have everlasting life , and ● heard in what they aske , Joh. 14.23 . & 15.7 . Doub●less that which Christ himself preached was the t● Gospel , and so far sufficient that whoever believe● it shall be saved . Otherwise Christ could not ●a● converted any soul , so far as to have brought the● into a state of Salvation by his Doctrine : and the● Peter and the rest of the Apostles were not tr●● Christians by the belief of the Doctrine of Christ , 〈◊〉 if the Doctrine which Christ preached be sufficie●● to make true Christians and Church-members o● those that receive it , then the Protestants are such ▪ For , they believe every word that the Evangelists record of the Doctrine of Christ . And if the Papi●● say that there is more of his Doctrine necessary t● salvation , which the Evangelists did not record i● Scripture , 1. We call for their proof of it , and 2. W●●●●ow that the Evangelists did purposely write th● ●●ur Gospels or Histories of Christ , of purpose to ac●uaint the world with his Nature , Birth , Life , doctrine ●eath and Resurrection , &c. Luke professeth that he ●rote his Gospel upon perfect understanding of all ●●ings from the very first , which conteyneth a Decla●●tion of those things which are most surely believed ●mong us , even as they were delivered by them that ●●om the beginning were eye Witnesses and Ministers ●f the Word , Luk. 1.1 , 2 , 3 , 4. And he tells us Act. ● . 1 , 2. that he wrote his Gospel of all things that ●esus began both to do and teach , untill the day in ●hich he was taken up . It would therefore have ●een an exceeding blemish to the Evangelists that ●rote of set purpose both the History of Christs ●ife and Doctrine , if they had left out any part of it ●hat was of necessity to salvation . Protestants there●ore that believe all the Gospel do believe so much ●s may bring them safely to salvation . If Christ him●elf be not a sufficient Teacher , nor the Gospel it self a ●ufficient Doctrine of Life , Then whither shall we go to seek it ? Then Peter himself was not the Rock , ●or a true Christian by Christs Teaching : And then ●he Pope could not derive that from Peter which he ●ad not . But Peter himself thought and taught o●herwise . He saith [ Lord whether shall we go ? we know that thou hast the words of Eternal Life ] For my part I will take Peters counsel , and go to Christ for the words of Eternal Life , which are purposely recorded by four Evangelists in the Gospel : Let who will go to the Pope for another Gospel , to supply the supposed defects of this , for I will not .

In Act. 22. & 26. and other places Paul preacheth so much of the Gospel , as might have made true Believers , and all that , the Protestants receive .

The Church of Rome when Paul wrote his Epistle to them , were a true Church , Rom. 1.7 . and all the Doctrine that Paul writeth to them we do believe :

Paul telleth the Elders of Ephesus , Act. 20.27 . that he had not shunned to declare to them the whole councel of God : and this is summed up in [ Repentance toward God , and Faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ ] vers . 21. And whatsoever Paul hath written to these Ephesians or any other Churches or persons , we believe .

But what should we talk any more with such an arrogant unreasonable sort of men , that dare maintaine that the belief of all the Holy Scripture is not large enough to salvation . Atheists and Infidels say of the Scripture , that it is too big to be all true : And Papists say that it is not big enough to bring a man to heaven that believeth and obeyeth it . Shall the Holy Ghost endite a Volume as big as the Bible , and when he hath done shall any pretending to be Christians , perswade the world that he that believeth all this , shall be damned if he believe not the closet . Traditions which the Romane Bishop pretendeth to be the keeper of ?

Nay see the strange contradictions of this giddy fiction ! They lock up this Scripture it self from the common people in an unknown tongue : They damne the translating of it as the root of all Heresies , and burn men to ashes for using the Bible ; when they cannot keep it unknown any longer , they translate it themselves as far as they can to their own advantage and put it forth with their perverting Annotations ; and yet when they have all done , they condemne any that read it without a special licence from their Ordinary : which in England and France they sometime grant to avoid suspicions ; but in Spaine , Italy , &c. too few if any at all . And when they have written voluminously to prove that the Scriptures are not necessary to the people for salvation , and that Ignorance is the mother of devotion , they come back again , and dispute against the Protestants , that the whole Scripture is not sufficient to salvation , and he that believes but the Scriptures is not in a safe way to salvation . It seems then that the Popes Canons are more necessary then the Scripture : For a man may be saved without the knowledge of Scripture , but not without the knowledge of the Canons of the Pope : Yes , that he may too : if some of them mistake not , if they will but implicitely believe that the Church of Rome is the Catholike Church , and that the Pope is the infallible soveraign of the Christian world , and believe some Articles of the Creed upon his credit , he may be saved without either Scripture or Canons , so he be but ready to believe and obey whatever shall be offered to him by the Pope for the time to come .

Moreover Christ and his Apostles do frequently promise Remission and salvation to all that truely Repent , that love God in Christ , that mortifie the flesh , &c. but all this do the Protestants , and their Religion teacheth them to do it . Paul concludeth that , There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus , that walk not after the flesh but after the spirit , Rom. 8.11 . But the Protestants are in Christ Jesus , and their Religion teacheth and engageth them so to walk : therefore there is no condemnation to them ( that do so ) and they may with the same Apostle , Rom. 8.33 , 34. Challenge all the Papists in the world . It is God that justifieth , who shall condemne us ?

Paul telleth Timothy that the holy Scriptures are able to make him wise to salvation , 2 Tim. 3.15 . therefore they may make us also wise to salvation . And he addeth , that [ All Scripture is given by inspiration of God , and is profitable for Doctrine , for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness , that the man of God may be perfect , throughly furnished unto all good works , ] vers. 16 , 17. It were endless to recite all that proveth the salvation of them that believe and obey the holy Scriptures . But this all true Protestants do . I shall therefore leave this taske , and next hear what the Papists can say to the contrary , and what they are able to produce to prove that we are not in a safe way to salvation .

Obj. 1. There is but one safe way to Heaven : The Protestant Religion is not that one way : Therefore not a safe way . The Minor is proved thus : That Religion which the Church hath owned from the Apostles dayes till now ▪ is that one way : The Protestant Religion is not that which the Church hath so owned : therefore it is not that one Religion . The Minor is proved by parts : 1. As to Doctrine , 2. as to Discipline , 3. as to worship . 1. The Church ever since the Apostles dayes , hath maintained the Doctrines of , 1. Free-will to good or evil , 2. of Predestination upon foreseen faith , 3. of mans merits , 4. of Justification by Inherent Grace , 5. against the certain Perseverance of all the Justified , and consequently against their certainty of salvation . 6. Vowed Chastity and Monastical Life . In Discipline the Church ever held , 1. The Popes Supremacy and Universal Jurisdiction ; 2. The Government by Bishops over Presbyters : 3. Ordination by them , and not without them . 4. Pennance and Confession of sin . 3. In matter of Worship the Church hath still used ▪ 1. Chrysme to the Baptized . 2. Imposition of hands in confirmation . 3. The sacrifice of the Altar . 4. The Cross . 5. Holy dayes . 6. Fasting dayes . All which the Protestants have cast off : Therefore they are not of the same Religion .

Answ. 1. To the Major Proposition of the main Argument , I answer . The word [ safe ] referreth to some Danger that we are safe from : The way may be called safe therefore , either in respect of sin or damnation : Also this way may be called [ one ] in respect of the Essentials of Religion , or else in respect of some inferior truths and duties , that are not of absolute necessity to salvation . And so I say that there is but one Religion as to the Essential and absolutely necessary points , in which a man can be safe from Damnation . And there is but one Religion as comprehending all the Integral parts , in which a man can be safe from sin : But yet that Religion which in the Essentials and Absolutely necessary points is but one , may yet consist with errors in lower and lesser things in the minds of those that hold it ; and yet be a safe way to salvation , though not so safe as to freemen from all sin . And consequently there may be differences among true Christians that shall be saved , though there be nothing but perfect Harmony in the entire Doctrine of Christian Religion as delivered from Christ and his Spirit : Because no man holds that Doctrine entirely and perfectly without any error or ignorance , and therefore there will be much difference among those that shall be saved . To the Major of the Pro-syllogisme , I answer , Implicitely and in Generals the Church hath owned the perfect truth in all ages , because it hath Believed that all that God saith is true , and that the Scripture is his word : But explicitely and particularly the Church hath not held all the truth of Religion , in any one age since the Apostles . For every man on earth hath been Ignorant , and the most knowing men erroneous in some things : seeing we are all imperfect , and here know but in part . And so one particular Church might erre in one thing , and another in another thing , as the differences about Easter , Rebaptizing , the Millennium , Infants Communicating , &c. shew they did . And of the same Church one Member might erre in one thing and another in another thing : it being as certain that no two men on the earth are in all things of the same minde , as that none on earth are perfect in knowledge . To the Minor I answer , that the Religion called Protestant is the same in all points absolutely necessary to salvation which the Church hath still owned ! And in other inferior points , the Churches having not been all or alwayes of one minde , some ages were more pure , and others more corrupt : The Protestant Religion is neerer to that of the purer times then the Papists is : It is the same in the Essentials ; it is the neerest it in the Integrals ; it is more remote from latter corruptions introduced in times more remote from the Apostolical purity .

To the particular instances of our differences from the former Churches , I answer particularly . 1. For Free will to God , if you mean a natural freedome , which is [ the wills self-determining Power ] so the Protestants maintain it as well as the Fathers . If you mean a moral freedom from ill-inclining habits , which is properly a right-disposition , so the Fathers maintained it not .

Obj. Let Scultetus in Medulla Patru● and others of your own Writers be judge who still number this inter naevos Patrum .

Answ. Scultetus and Calvin and others might mistake the Fathers sence and think that they spoke of moral Freedom , when they spoke but of natural , which is inseparable from the will . And its like that they did so , seeing the Fathers maintained Original sin , which is that pravity of humane nature , which is clean contrary to moral Free-will . 2. And if the Fathers were for a Free-will in a moral-Ethical sence , so is one part of the Protestants as much as they were ▪ And if they were in the right , so are those Protestants ? If in the wrong then the other part of the Protestants are in this , in the right . 3. This is a point that men may differ in , as much as the Fathers did from us , and yet be in a safe way to salvation . 4. The Dominicans and the Jesuites differ about it as much as we and the Fathers ; yea , they cannot yet agree , what natural free-will is . 2. For Predestination upon foreseen faith . * * In this the Ancients differed among themselves Austin and his followers being for absolute Predestination and for Reprobation upon foreseen unbe●ief : and others being for Predestination ( i. e. Election ) upon foreseen faith . 1. There is no Declaration of the Churches minde in those times about it , but what is found in the wrigtings of particular Doctors . 2. We confess that men are Elected to Glory and Justification from guilt , upon foreseen faith : But we say withall that they are Elected to that faith ; and that God did foresee it as a thing which he intended to give , and not as a thing which corrupted unregenerate nature would produce . 3. And we say also , that this is a point that men may differ in that yet are in a safe way to salvation .

3. As to the point of mans merits , we say ; that the Fathers differed from us but in word and not indeed : It seemed good to them to call every moral aptitude or Ordination ad Praemium , that is , the Rewardableness of our actions , by the name of merit ; and every Rewardable work meritorious . We thinke it fittest to forbear this name . This Verbal difference makes not two distinct Religions .

4. As to the point of Justification , we confess that the Fathers commonly called that Justification which we now call Sanctification . And we our selves maintain that Sanctification doth consist in Inherent Graces This difference therefore being but verbal , the Religion and the way to salvation is nevertheless the same .

5. As for the points of * * Austin , Prosper Fulgentius , &c ● fully maintain the Perseverance of all the Elect , ●hou●h not of all the Justified . Perseverance and certainty of Salvation , and Virginity or vowed Chastity , with the supposed merit thereof , and of a Monastical or Eremetical life ; we think that most of the Churches since the first century , have departed from the Apostles Doctrine in these points ; and therefore we appeal to the Scripture . But yet we know that these are not points of absolute necessity to salvation ; so that whether those Churches , or we were mistaken , yet is our Religion the same , and both they , and we in a safe way to Heaven .

2. For matters of Government and Discipline we say 1. That we undertake to manifest it as cleare as the light , that the Popes Supreme Headship , and universal jurisdiction , is a novelty introduced above six hundred years after Christ . 2. For Diocesane Episcopacy and their ordination , some of the Reformed Churches do own it : But it is not a matter so necessary to Salvation , as that all men that will be saved must needs be of one minde in it . 3. We confess and maintain the necessity of true Penitence and such confession of sin as is necessary to manifest Penitence to the Church after a notorious scandal : and of confession to those that we have wronged : and of private confession to our Pastors , in case that we cannot have a through cure of our wounds , or comfort to our consciences without it . Lastly , as for the Ceremonies mentioned which the former Churches used , and as for the bare name of a Sacrifice and Altar ( while they agreed with us in sence ) we take them not to be matters of so great moment , as must make them and us of two Religions ; as if both were not in a safe way to salvation . The best men on earth may differ in as great a matter as one of these : and if they in a mistaken zeal shall depart from the Apostles , so that we cannot imitate both the Apostles and them , we had rather of the two leave them then the Apostles ; yet holding with them still in the maine .

Obj. The Religion of Protestants differs from the Abassine and Greek Churches and all the world as well as the Romane , and therefore cannot be a safe way . Answ. 1. If that be not a safe way which differs from the Greeks , Abassines , &c. then the Papists way is much less safe then ours : for they do not onely differ from them , but un-Church them and condemne them to Hell , and so do not we . 2. We are of the same Religion with them : onely we have by Gods great mercy cast out of that one way some stones of offence , which they have not yet cast out .

Obj. 2. The true safe Religion hath had a visible Church professing it from Christs time till this day : But the Protestant Religion hath not had a visible Church , professing it to this day : therefore it is not the true safe Religion .

Ans. The Major I easily grant and disclaim the needless snift of them that would deny it . But the Minor I deny : If they call for the proof of that visible Church , and aske where it was before Luther , we say that it was wherever Christ had a Church : From Christs time till many hundred years after , even at Rome it self and many other places : and from Christs time to this day it hath been in Ethiopia , Greece , Egypt , Mesopotamia , and many other Countries , if not still among the Romanists themselves : for full proof of which , note , that it is from the Essentials , and points of great necessity that we denominate our Religion ; and every difference in ●esser things doth not make a distinct Religion : else there were as many Religions in the world as men . Note also that the main difference between us and the Papists is , not that they deny the substance of our Religion directly , but that they superadde a great many of new Articles to the old Creed , and have made their Religion much larger then ours , many of their new Articles consequently subverting the Fundamentals which they profess . So that our Re●gion is , and still hath been among the Papists , and other Churches : and if they ●dde mor● to it , that makes it not cease in it self to be what it was Our Religion is wholly contained in the Holy Scriptures ▪ ●nd that all the Churches have still allowed of : The Papists themselves confess it all to be the Word of God , which we appeal to as the onely Touch-stone ●nd rule of our faith .

Obj. So you would make our Religion and ●ours to be all one . Ans. As the word Religion sig●ifieth the Essentials of the Christian Faith , or the ●oints of absolute necessity to Salvation , so our ●eligion is with you , and is owned or confessed by ●ou : As it signifieth all those points that are conceit●d necessary to Salvation with the professors , so your ●eligion is not all , but part , with us : And as it com●rehendeth also all those Integral parts , which a man ●ay confessedly be saved without , so he do not wil●lly reject them , so yours and ours do much differ●nd that your Religion is not all with us is no loss to ● ; because the points of yours which we disown ●e both novel additions of your own brain , and al●● such as contradict the acknowledged verities . Wherever then Christ had a Church that did believe all the Doctrine of the Scripture , and specially th● Creed , the Lords Prayer , the Decalogue , the Doctrine of the new Covenant , Baptisme , the Lord Supper , and the Ministry , there was our Religion before Luther : If any added hay and stubble , if the● work be burnt , and they suffer loss , yet our Religion among them is the same still .

Obj. But do not you make this Negative a part ● your Religion ; that nothing but Scripture is to ●● believed fide divinâ ? and what Church was of th● Opinion ?

Answ. 1. We have oft at large shewed that m●● of the ancient Doctors of the Church have asser●● the Scriptures sufficiency at large , and appealed ● them as the full Revelation of Gods will concerni●● all things necessary to salvation , and the sufficien● Rule to Judge of controversies . 2. If they did 〈◊〉 of them think that the Church had a supperad●● Revelation by Tradition , in points of order , of ● necessity to salvation ; this doth not make them ●● us to be of two Religions , or wayes of Salvation as long as they do not introduce any dangerous ● destructive points under that pretence .

Obj. But the Church still held those things as ●●cessary to Salvation which you deny . Ans. W● deny that to be true : Some of the points in differ●●● are novelties of your own , which the ancient Chur●● did never hold : the rest are such as they never ● such a stress , as mens salvation upon .

To conclude , Let it be considered whether th● Argument may not damne your selves which I t● against you Thus. The true safe Religion hath 〈◊〉 a visible Church professing it from Christs time ● ●●w : But the Religion of the Romanists ( as com●●ehending all points of their faith , or made by them be necessary to salvation ) hath not had any visible ●●urch professing it of many hundred years after ●●rist : Therefore it is not the true Religion , nor a ●●e way to salvation , The Minor I shall undertake ●●re seasonably to make good : And our Divines ●●e done it already .

No doubt but common reason and justice requir●● , that you that call to us so earnestly for a Cata●●gue of the Professors of our Religion in all Ages ●●uld be as much obliged your selves to give us a ●●●alogue of yours : yea and to give it first , because 〈◊〉 are the first in pleading the necessity of it . Un●●●take this task therefore , and perform it well , and ●u shall carry the whole cause . Give us a Cata●ue of any , besides impeached Hereticks , that did ●n your main points of Popery for many hundred ●●rs after Christ , and we will give you a full ac●●nt of such as contradicted those conceits and be●●●ed as we do , and let both be compared together , ● let the most satisfaction and the fullest evidence ●●●ry it . You make a meer empty noise among the ●●gar , of Antiquity and Universality , and call for ●roof of the perpetual or continued visibility of ● Church , as if in this you had the advantage , ● the ballance did turn on your side : When as ●●ough we know that there is no such necessity of ● proof in this as you pretend yet ) we know your ●dvantage here to be so great , that if you will ● be perswaded to this way of tryal , it will be to the ●●●er shame and confusion of your cause . What s the ●●tter else that you still appeal to the latter or pre●●t Church , and that is only to the Romane , and that s onely to your selves ? If we do but invite you to tryal by Scripture , and the Fathers and Records the three first ages , you presently scorn the mo● and fall upon the Fathers with accusations , as if th● had not understood or believed all that was necessa●● to salvation , or to the being of a Christian or Church ; for you say they did not meddle with th● controversies ; and so you call us down to the la● or present times , as having equal authority with ● first : To which we say , 1. That the silence of ● first times concerning these matters , if there w● no more ( as yet there is ) is sufficient to prove t● they were not then taken for any necessary points faith . For , Though our Records of the sec● Age be very short , yet both they and m● more those of the third and fourth Ages containe such purposely undertaken , explication● the Christian faith , that we cannot imagine suc● multitude of necessary points would have been o●ted . 2. And though the Pastors of the present ● have equal Authority in Ruling their Congregatio● with those of the second , yet they cannot give ● sure an account what was the doctrine and prac● of the former Ages , nor any way prove it to us ● by producing such records .

The Papists themselves are so far from deny● that the Ancient Fathers and Churches did hold ● Positive part of our Religion , that they hold it the●selves ; For they themselves profess to believe ●● book of holy Scripture that we do : They say ● believe the Creed called the Apostles , and the ●cene and Constantinopolitane Creed , and that of ●●thanasius ; and so do we ( still taking the holy Sc●pture onely for our Rule ) so that their own tong● ●ust confess the Antiquity , and Universality , and ●ccession of our Religion : For this is ours .

But all that they have to ob●ject is this , That we ●n name no Churches or Fathers that held our Negatives . To which I say , 1. The Negatives at least , for the most part of them , if not all ) are ●e meer consequences of the Affirmatives and Posi●ves , and implyed or plainly included in them : For ●xample , when our Religion saith [ Thou shalt wor●ip the Lord thy God , and him only shalt thou serve ] ●is includeth the Negative [ Thou shalt ●ot worship or serve Saints , Mat 4.10 . Angels or ●ny other , save only by a service and honour duely ●bservient to the service and worship of God : and ●herefore that we give not Divine worship to the ●onsecrated host , or the Virgin Mary , or to any ●ther meer creature . Our Religion teacheth us [ to ●o all things to edifying ] 1 Cor. 14.26 . This includ●th the negatives [ that we must not worship God in ●n unknown tongue or unedifying manner , bleating ●nd bellowing out our prayers in hideous or ridicu●ous tones . ] Our Religion maketh it the Ministerial Commission , to teach the Nations and Baptize , Mat. 28.19 , 20. This includeth the Negative that women or lay men should not so teach ( that is , as Commissioned officers ) nor baptize : Mat. 28.19 . This affirmative [ Peter was sent to Dis●iple Nations ] includeth this Negative [ Peter was not sent to be the fixed Bishop of Rome , and there ●o reside . This affirmative [ The Apostles are the Foundation of the Church ] includeth this negative ● Peter alone is not the Foundation of the Church ] This Affirmative [ It is bread and wine which we take ●nd eat and drink in the Eucharist ] containeth or implyeth the Negative , that [ It is not Christs flesh and blood , which the bread and wine is transubstantiat●● into ] I might thus instance in many more : Our N●gatives are contained or imply●● in our Affirmatives which yo● hold or confess your selves . So Dr. White confesseth that we cannot bring a Catalogue of those that in all ages have maintained our Negations of their corruptions , because the Corrupters were 〈◊〉 then risen up ; and how should we prove that the Church opposed an error before it was hatched .

2. I answer further , that we have express negatives also both in Scriptures and Fathers , in the main points of difference between us and the Papists We have a plain [ Thou shalt not make to thy self any Graven Image , &c. Thou shalt not bow down to them nor worship them , &c. ] We have a plaine [ I● the Church I had rather speak five words with my understanding that I might teach others also , the● ten thousand words in a tongue ] ( unknown ) 1 Cor. 14.19 . We have a plain [ See thou do it not , for I am thy fellow servant ] Rev. 22.9 . And so of the chief differences through the rest .

3. If we had but this one point proved , that [ the holy Scripture is a sufficient Rule of Faith ] it fully warranteth all our Negatives wherein we differ from the Papists . For , to Believe all that is in Scripture , and that this is sufficient , will surely warrant as to exclude their additions . And we have oft proved that the first ages did maintain the Scripture sufficiency . This one answer doth fully justifie us against this c●vil of the Papists . The Ancient Church and Fathers believed the Scripture and the sufficiency of that Scripture as containing all points of faith : And so do we . And so all Popish faith is excluded ( Though we ●onfess many Ceremonies and points of order ●ere then admitted as from the Church .

4. Negatives became necessary to be expresly as●erted by occasion of Heresies . And therefore who ●an wonder if many of them are never mentioned till ●hose heresies did call them out . When there was ●o man so impudent as to say that [ The Pope of ●ome is the Universal Bishop and Governor of the whole Church ] or that [ God must be worshipped in ●n unknown tongue ] or that [ Images must be wor●hipped ] who could expect that the Church should have occasion in words to express it as a part of their faith that [ The Pope is not the universal Bishop ; not infallible , &c. ] and so of the rest ? If Popery had risen sooner , it had sooner been contradicted .

5. There may be an hundred Negatives made necessary hereafter by heresies , which it is not necessary now to put into our Creed or confessions , because they are not yet sufficiently contained or implyed in the contrary Affirmatives . If Hereticks arise that say that man hath seven souls ; that the soul returns to be Gods Essence , and was so eternally ; that there are fourteen Sacraments ; that Infants must take Orders ; with a hundred the like ; then it might be necessary for us expresly to deny these ; and shall they then tell us that our Religion is new and theirs old , because we cannot prove that any did before deny theirs ? So what if we could not prove that any before had said [ The Pope is not the Universal Governor ? ] that is because there was none so shamless for six hundred years as to say he was . Whose Religion then is proved new by this , ours or theirs ?

But I shall say somewhat more to this anon in the end ▪

Obj. 3. That Religion which cannot be known 〈◊〉 having no certain test to discern it by , can be no sa●● way to salvation : But such is the Reformed Religion , therefore , &c. The Minor is proved : If they have any such test , either it is Scripture , or so●● confessions of their own : But neither of these : therefore not Scripture : For that is appealed to by many Religions , and therefore can be no proper Test to discerne one of them from the rest : Besides it knows not so much as the name of the Refor●●● Protestant Religion : Not any confession : for they have no one which they agree in , but one disclaimeth what another owneth : And they have none agreed on by a General Councel , or by all themselves .

Ans 1. The Test of our Religion is the holy Scripture ; This we profess joyntly to be the Rule of our faith and life : To this we still Appeal , If we misunderstand it in any point , we implicitely renounce all such e●rors , because we explicitely in general renounce all that is contrary to the Scripture . This may be the true Test of our Religion though others falsly pre●end that theirs is more agreeable to it . Many things may be tryed by the same Touchstone , and weighed by the same ballance ; whereof some may be currant ▪ and others unfound , or light . May not the Law of the Land be the true Rule of our obedience to our Governors , though in the Rebellious or disobedient should pretend to be Ruled by the same Laws .

2. They are not all distinct Religions which the Papists call so : Many appeal to the same Scriptures , who agree in the maine concerning the sence , and disagree onely in some inferior things . These are not several Religions .

3. Our confessions do shew how we understand the Scripture ; wherein we agree in the main , as the Harmony of Confessions testifieth , though in some lesser things we differ .

Obj. 4. They that have causlesly separated from all the Churches in the world are not of the true Religion nor in a safe way to Salvation : But so have the Protestants done : for they are divided both from Romane Church , the Greeks , Abassines , Armenians , and all : therefore they are not in a safe way .

Ans. It s one thing to withdraw from some corruption of a Church and another to withdraw from the Church . 1. We that are now living did not withdraw from Rome or any of the rest : for we were never among you or under you . 2. Our Fathers withdrew not from the Church as Christian or Catholike , but from the particular corruptions of the Romane faction , in Doctrine , Discipline , and Worship ; rejecting their lately usurped Tyranny , by which they would have still obliged them to sin against God . As we are commanded to withdraw from each particular Brother that walketh disorderly , so must we from a particular Church when they will be so disordered , as to Tyrannize over the universal . 3. The Church of Rome rejected us by a causeless excommunication , who were not de jure under her power . 4. We still profess our selves of the same Church with the Greeks , Abassines , Arminians , Copties , and all others on earth that hold the Scriptures , and that so hold the Anticent Creeds or fundamentals of Christianity ; as that they do not evidently subvert it again by contradictory Errors : If they hold no Errors but what may consist with a true belief of the Fundamentals in the same persons ( though by an unseen consequence they may contradict them ) we seperate not from that Church so as to disclaim it from being a true Church : And therefore it s not true that we so separate from all the world : but as to the Local Personal Communion or presence , we dare not joyn with the truest Church in the least known sin : But in that respect we cannot be said to separate from the Greeks or Abassines , that we have no opportunity of Local Communion with . While all men are imperfect , one may see that Error which another seeth not : and to separate meerly from a sin of one man or a Church is not simply to separate from the man or Church .

Obj. 5. That Religion which hath no unity in it self or consistency , but is broken into many Sects , and still running further , is no safe way to salvation . But such is the Protestant Religion , therefore .

Answ. We deny the Minor . Our Religion is one , simply one , and most consistent , and having one sure standing Rule , not subject to changes as yours is ; even the word of God himself . The same Rule that the first Churches had , and the same Test by which the Christian Religion was known of old , when the Belief of the Scripture , and particularly the Ancient Creeds , and the actual Communion with the true Church , was the test of a Catholike , the one in Doctrine , the other in Communion , as freeing him from Schismes . We believe all the same Articles , and we divide not from the Catholick Church . If any depart from Scripcures as to the sence in points absolutely necessary , they cease to be of our Religion . If any depart from it in lesser things , they may yet be of the same Religion with us ; but so far we disown them , if we know it . Popery hath no , sure test , or means to prevent mutation . But we have in that we fix on the Immutable Rock . If Anabaptists , Separatists , or any erroneous persons live among us , so far as they hold those errors , so far they are none of us : And if any err , whom we dare not reject , we yet reject their errors , and take them for no part of our Religion . And if this Argument hold , it will much more condemne the Romanists , who have more diversity of opinions and wayes among them then the Protestants , as may in due place be shewed .

Obj. 6. That is not the true Religion nor a safe way to Heaven , which men can have no Infallible certainty of . But the Protestant Religion is such : For they all profess their Church to be fallible .

Answ. We must distinguish between a man that May be deceived , and a man that Is deceived : And between Infallibility in the Object , and in the Subject or Intellect . And between Infallibility in the absolutely necessary points , and in some Inferior smaller matters . And so I Ans. 1. The Rule of our Religion , viz. the word of God , is Infallible , yea the onely Infallible Rule of Religion : and therefore we have an Infallible , and the onely Infallible Religion . 2. The weakness of the Recipient must be differenced from the Religion which hath no such weakness There is still the certainty and Infallibility of the Object , when the believer through his own weakness may be uncertain . 3. No man is Falsus actually deceived , while he believes that doctrine of our Religion , that is , the holy Scripture : And this we are certain of . 4. No Christian in sensu composito , nor no Church is fallible , or can err in the Fundamentals or points absolutely necessary . For if he do so , he ceaseth to be a Christian , and that to be a Church . 5. In sensu diviso , he that was a common believer , may Apostatize from the faith , and so may a particular Church : and therefore is fallible , but is not , as is said , Deceived , till it turn from the Infallible truth . 6. The best man or Church on earth doth know but in part , and therefore erreth in part , and therfore is fallible in part or in lower things . So that it is not the least proof of the fallibility of Scripture or the Reformed Religion , that men may Apostatize from it , or that they may stagger in Believing an Infallible Truth , or that we are fallible in lesser things . All true Believers are actually Infalliblly perswaded of the Truth of Gods Word , and particularly of all things absolutely necessary .

Obj. 7. That Religion is not true nor a safe way to heaven which wanteth many Articles of faith ; But the Protestant Religion wanteth many Articles of faith : Therefore .

Answ. 1. We must distinguish of our Religion as it is in the Professed Rule , and as it is Impressed in the mindes of men : In the former respect , we say that our Religion wanteth no Article of faith : for Gods perfect Word is our Religion : But in the minds of men Religion is more or less imperfect according to the strength or weakness of mens faith . 2. We must distinguish between true Articles of Faith , and false ones made by the Church of Rome , We are without the latter ( but want them not ) but we expect that they who call them Articles of faith , do prove them so .

Obj. 8. Your Religion is unsafe by your own Testimony : You condemne one another : the Lutheran condemneth the Calvinist as Blasphemous , impious , and damnable : the Calvinists condemne the Lutherans : the Anabaptists both : and every sect is condemned by others : Therefore .

Ans. 1. The Churches confessions pass no such condemnation ; nor any moderate sober men . 2. If two children fall out , & call one another Bastard , they are never the more Bastards for that , nor will the father therefore call them so ; else what will become of your Jesuites and Dominicans .

Obj. 9. The very name of Lutherans , Calvinists , Protestants , do plainly express a Sect or party , different from the Name [ Catholike ] which denoteth the true Church which only holds the true Religion : And the very name [ Reformed ] is novel , and no proper title of the Catholike Church , but onely a cloak for your Schisme , which discloseth the novelty of your Church and way .

Answ. 1. And of how much better signification think you , is the name [ Papist ] or [ Romanist ? You call your selves Catholikes , and we call our selves Catholikes : You scornfully call us Lutherans , and Calvinists which are names that we disclaime , and then argue from your own imposed names . Would you have us do so by you ? And as for the names of Protestants , and Reformed , we use them not to express the Essential nature of our Religion , but the Accidental Removal of your Corruptions . So that though Scripture or Antiquity talke not of [ A Protestant , or Reformed Religion ] by name , yet it commendeth to us that same Religion , which we now call [ Protestant , 〈◊〉 Reformed ] but then it could not so be called , because you had not then hatched your corruptions and deformities , which are presupposed to our Reformation . The man that fell among thieves , when his wounds were healed , was a [ Cured man ] whereas before he was not a cured man , because not a wounded man : And yet he was the same man as before ; and the Theeves ●hat wounded him would have made but a foolish ●lea , if they would have dispossessed him of his In●eritance on pretence that he is not the same man , and have proved him not the same , because he hath ●ot the same name , it being not a Cured man that owned that inheritance before .

Obj. 10. Where the Catholike Church is , there the Catholike Religion is , and no where else : But the Catholike Church is not with you , but with us ▪ For , you found us in Possession of the name and thing and then departed from us as Hereticks in former ages did from the Church : Therefore it is not you but we that have the true Catholike Religion , which is the onely safe way to salvation .

Answ. 1. The Church must be known to be true and Catholike by the Religion which it owneth , and not the Religion by the Church . You begin at the wrong end : As if I would prove such a thing to be a Vertue because it is in such a man , as I esteem , when I should rather prove him to be honest and Virtuous , because that which is first , proved honesty , & Vertue dwelleth in him . 2. Did we not find the Greek , Ethiopian and other Churches in possession of the name of the Catholike Church as well as you ? Yet you would dispossess them . 3. We found you in Possession of All in your own account : and all is yours if your selves must be Judges . But in the account of the Greek , Abassine and other Churches we found you in Possession but of the name of [ A Church ] and not [ The Church ] a Part of the Church Catholike , and not the whole ; a Corrupt part and not the Head , 〈◊〉 the Purest part . 4. We departed not from you as ● Church , much less as the Catholike Church , but ● corrupted : Nor do we yet deny you to be a Church but to be a sound Church or the Catholike Church .

Concerning this and the former Queries , especially [ when our Church was in all Ages before L●ther ] we shall clear our selves by giving the true state of the case , which will Justifie it self .

Christ came to be the Physician of diseased souls ▪ In his Gospel he proclaimeth his office , and call them to himself for cure , and prescribeth them the means : But he takes the time of this life for the accomplishing it , and cureth no man perfectly 〈◊〉 death . His Church therefore is as an Hospital or ● City so infected , that there is not one in it that is perfectly sound : One of the deepest radical diseases is Pride , which corrupted the blood even of the Apostles themselves . So far that it broke out into such an Itch , that they could not forbear contending who should be the greatest even in the presence of Christ himself . He derides the controversie , telling them [ with you it shall not be so , but he that will be great shall be the servant of all . ] This disease of Pride was still alive in part , even wherever it was mortified , so that such like desires of superiority were excited by it also in the Apostles successors , the Pastors of the Church in following ages . But it came but to a troublesome Itch till Constantines time ▪ For the nailes of Persecution did so claw it , that the corrupt blood was let out , and the Itch was frequently abated by the smart : But when Constantine lifted up the Bishops with honors , revenew , and the ad●unction of secular power to their wills or censures , ●hen the itch turned to a plain Scab , the corrupt ●lood continuing , and the scarifying scratches of persecution ceasing . But this overspread not the whole body , the Catholike Church much less all a●ike : but it seized mainly upon the Clergy who should have been examples of humility and self-denyal to the rest : And principal●y on the Cleargy of the Romane Empire , and some others that they ●nfected : But on none so much as the Bishop of Rome , and his Clergys . For Rome being the Impe●ial seat , and drawing to it the glory , riches , and observance of the world , the Bishop of that place must needs be accordingly magnified and observed : especially because that he being at the Emperors ear might have pleasured or displeasured almost any Prince or Prelate in the Empire . At last by translation of much of the Glory to Constantinople , the heat of the disease was conveyed thither too , so that John of Constantinople and Gregory of Rome , contended about the Universal Supremacy : John laid the first ●laime to it , because he was Bishop of the Imperial ●eat . Gregory laies no claim to it himself , but contradicteth Johns , pronouncing it a note of Antichrist ●o claim the title of Universal Bishop , little think●ng that his own successors would have claimed it so ●oon . At last Phocas being helped by the Romane Bishop to possess the throne of his murdered Prince , doth help the Pope to the Title of Universal Bishop , ●nd the glory and strength of Constantinople abating , Rome did the more easily hold what they had go● . By this time the Seab was turned to a Leprosie , which drew on many other concomitant diseases a● its symptuous : The rest of the Church was some of it infected with some of the foresaid Scab , some more 〈◊〉 some less , and some of them still were onely tro●bled with the old itch , though none perfectly sou● nor was that to be expected ; much of the Weste●● parts comply with their Leprous Patriarch , and ●●mit to him while he calls himself Universal Bisho● and Head of the Catholike Church , some conse●● some say nothing though they dissent , and inde●● the power was got into his hand , so that for fear ● persecution few durst contradict , and specially whe● they saw no likelihood of doing good : Yet some i● all Ages even under his nose , did signifie their disl●●● and offer some help to the cure . At last in Luther● dayes whole Countries do withdraw from the R●mane Leprosie ( as thousands called Albigenses , W●●denses , &c. had done before them ) and so free themselves from the infection , and get off the very scab and make fair attempts for the Cure of the very itch . Now what doth the Romane Clergy , but cry out after us as Hereticks and Schismaticks , and as●● us [ where was our Church before Luther ? ] and who were of our Religion till then ? We answer them that if they have the Leprosie , and the times before them had ( in most parts ) the scab , and the former times the itch , cannot we prove that we are Men as well as they , unless we prove that we have the Leprosie , Scab , or Itch as they had ? Are these Essential or Integral parts of a man ? As humane nature is still with a Leper , but Leprous ; and still with him that hath the Scab , but scabbed : so our Religion and Church was at Rome and still is , but Leprous since the Usurpation before mentioned : It was before that at I●●●e , but forely scabbed : It was before that Rome troubled with the itch : It is still in Greece , Abassia , and other parts , but somewhat scabbed : is in millions of the people free from that scab , ●ho in all Ages disliked the Clergies usurpations : ●●ough we cannot expect to hear this from them in a ●eneral Councel , where they are not to be . But ●e take the people to be a true part of the Church . ●e have separated from you as from Lepers , not from the Dead . We bury not your title of a ●hurch or Christians , so you will adde [ Leprous ] ●nd a Leprosie proves most commonly a killing dis●●se . We have reason to secure our selves from our infection , though our love to you were never ● dear .

So that here 's the quarrel ; and here 's our defence . ● all Christs Hospital in the Western part of the ●orld , have much increased the disease that he would ●ave cured them of ; it doth not follow that any man ●●at is cured of their Leprosie , ceaseth presently to ●e a man , that he that is reformed of those vices , ●easeth to be a member of the Catholike Church : ●r that such Reformed Churches are new things that ●ere not before : The Reformation may be new as ●o the latter Ages since corruption prevailed , but ●●e Religion or Church-state is not new . It s a sad case ●ith the Church when its corruptions are come to be ●●counted of its essence , so that he that will not re●ine the corruptions , must not be accounted to be a ●hristian or a Catholike at least , and he that will be ●ured must be accounted to be killed ; The Church ●as a Church before it catcht the Romish Scab or Le●rosie , and therefore is a Church where that is cu●ed ; and I think far better without it , then with ●t .

By all this therefore it evidently appeareth that a Papists do most vainly charge us with novelty 〈◊〉 call for a Catalogue ● the professors of our R●ligion , How far we account the Church of Rome a true Church ▪ and yet the Papacy no true Church . See Junius in his exact book de Ecclesia Cant. Bellarm. oper. Vol. 2. col. 1019. And the judgement of several of our Divines by Bishop Hall in his Defence against Burton . when the no●ty is theirs , and the●selves do yet profess ● Religion , though to ● they have added th● corrupting Lepros●● Though we cannot ●●der take to prove that th● Church was perfect ( nor never will be , till it co● to heaven ) yet we have oft proved that it was ma● Ages without their Popery , and are ready to unde●take the further proof : Of which the next Disp●●tion shall give you a tast .

There is a Railing Pamphlet extant , called [ ● brief confutation of certain absurd , heretical 〈◊〉 damnable doctrines , delivered by Master James Ush●● in a Sermon preached before King James at Wanste● Jun. 20. 1624. ] The Author calls himself Paul● Veridicus : Its printed at St Omers , 1627. Because take the same way against the Romanists as this Reverend Bishop of Armagh taketh , and hath led me i● that Sermon , I think my self the more obliged 〈◊〉 consider of what is said against it .

The first onset of this Mr Maledious , pag. 9.10 , 11 ▪ Is against our assertion that we are of the same Re●gion , and Church as the Grecians , Aegyptians , Christians , Aethiopians , &c. and that all these are not ● be damned as Hereticks and unchurched , because they ●re not subjects of the Pope . To this 1. He con●●sseth that even the Greeks themselves are not sub●ect to the Pope ; and that [ they soon departed ●om the ( seeming ) union made in the Councel of ●●lorence , about the year 1439. ] 2. He confesseth ●at their doctrine about the Procession of the Holy ●host a patre per silium and not a patre filioque , was ●ch , that [ when they had explicated it they were ●und to believe very Orthodoxly and Catholikely in ●e same matter , and for such were admitted . ] ● . He affirmeth that [ he findeth not that in any sub●●antial point they do dissent from the Romane ●atholike Church , excepting the matter of Primacy . ] Let us first observe the consequences of this much . ● . From hence it followeth that the Greek Churches ●e guilty of no Heresie , but non subjection to the ●ope of Rome . 2. And that therefore indeed they ●re no Hereticks . 3. And therefore it is not of ne●essity to the being of a Church or Catholike Chri●ian to be subject to the Pope : And that the Pope ●r Romane Church is not to enter the definition of ●he Catholike Church : for as the Greeks may be Ca●holikes without subjection to Rome , so may others ▪ ● . And therefore they are no General Councels ●here all those Churches are absent , as at Trent , Constance , &c. And that its a false excuse of Bellar●ine and the rest , to say that the Greeks and the rest ●re Hereticks or Schismaticks . 5. And therefore it ●eclareth to all the world , both that the Popish de●gne and Religion is carnal and selfish , to exalt ●hemselves above the whole Church of God , and ●lso that they are more then barbarously tyranni●al censorious , and most extreamly schismati●al , that will presume to cut off from Christ and the Church , the greatest part of the Christi●● in the world , even those that themselves confess ● be in all other things Orthodoxe , and that me●● because they will not be the Popes subjects . ● now proceed to the next .

The substance of his Answer consisteth of t●● gross untruths in a publike matter of fact , wher● many millions of men are able at the first hearing ● prove him a bold false witness , making falshood ● prop of his ill cause . The first untruth which ● layeth down , is that the Grecians do claim that ●●preamacy to their own Patriarke of Constantinople which they deny the Pope : and therefore if it be h● it is as bad in them as the Papists , and so they are ● Protestants . To which I say , it is not true : whatever any private or particular man may say , its we● known that it s not true of their Church in comm●● nor found in any of their Church confessions , ● utterly and ordinarily disclaimed by them . Thoug● John of Constantinople did claim the title of Universal Bishop because of the Emperors residence there yet did he not get it , much less to be the Universal Governor , and yet much less is it now claimed wh● the Christian Empire is removed . To be Episc●p● prima sedis is as much as is desired by the Patriarc● himself ; which yet he is content to leave , and ta●● the second place , though neither of them concer●eth an Universal Episcopacy .

Can they read such books ● Nilus * * You may see it in Mich G●ld●stus d● Monarch . pag● 30. Tom. 1. Archbishop of Thessalonica de primatu Pa● Parham , and many other of the Greeks , and yet belie●● themselves in these fictions ? Why do we read or hear nothing from the Patriache of Constantinople in●iting and perswading us all to submit to his Govern●ent , as we and all the Christian world almost have ●een solicited by the Popes Emissaries to submit our ●elves to him ? A short Reply may serve to such ●mmodest false assertions as this nicknamed Veri●ieus maketh the chiefest part of his confuta●ion .

The second untruth which constituteth this part of ●is answer , is , that [ The Grecians , Moscovites , and Egyptians do in one only point dissent from Rome , and ●n no point at all agree with the Protestants sin quan●um such , and dissent from their Catholike Church . ]

This one great falshood containeth two not small ones in it , and each of those two contain abundance more .

1. That all these Churches differ from you in no one point but the Popes supreamacy is a falshood beyond all modesty . For besides the supremacy they believe not your pretended Infallibility , nor do they pretend to the like of their own : They believe not your Purgatory : they own not your pardons for easing the pains of Purgatory , nor prayers for the dead to that end ; nor the application of the treasury of the Saints Merits to that end , or for satisfaction to the Justice of God . They own not your Transubstantiation : They have the Scripture in their known languages : They worship God in their Liturgies in their known languages , the Moscovites in the Moscovian tongue , the Georgians in the Iberick ; the Arabians in the Arabick ; and so the Carmanians , Slavonians , Greeks in theirs : They administer the Eucharist in both kinds , and detest your Sacrilegious withholding of the cup : They reject your confirmation : so do they your extreme Unction ▪ They admit Priests to live with their wives which were married before ordination : They reject t●e Religious use of graven Images or Statues : They teach that the holy Scriptures are a sufficient and perfect rule of faith : they believe that they should not be lockt up from the people : They maintain that God is to be worshiped in understanding , and they a●hor your praying by Beads and tale : They think not to wash away sin or drive away the devil by holy water : They take not Traditions to be one part of Gods Word , necessary to supply the defects of Scripture ; but take them and Church customes and constitutions to be onely for matters of order and determination of such circumstances as it belonged not to the perfection of Gods Laws , to determine , but were to be left to the wisdom of Governors ; the Scriptures containing sufficient for salvation : They believe with the Protestants that Justification is not by the Merit of works : And that it is impossible for us properly to Merit ex condigno the least mercy , much less the Kingdom of Heaven at the hands of God : They have but one order of Monkes , viz. of St Basil , and those not such as the Papists ; that live a private , unprofitable , droanish life ; but their Monasteries are as Colledges to fit them for the service of God in the Church , and thence they oft proceed to be Priests and Prelates : They take your Pope to be condemnable for his pride , cruelty and presumption : his pride for pretending to an universal jurisdiction , and usurping a power to depose Princes and dispose of their Crowns : his cruelty in persecuting other Christians for their differing judgements : and his presumption in granting pardons and deliverances from Purgatory . In a word they take the Papists for Schismaticks and a●cordingly condemne them with a solemne condemnation . The Muscovites and Russians admit not Priests or Deacons to Ordination unless they be marryed : and they refuse to communicate with the Romane Church . The Egyptian Christians allow not of Baptisme in any necessity whatsoever but onely by the Priest and in the Church , and administer the Sacrament of the Eucharist in both kinds : they give not the Lords Supper or extream unction to the sick . They deny Purgatory and prayer for the dead : They marry in the second degree of consanguinity without dispensations : They elevate not the host : They reject all the general Councels after that of Ephesus : They repute the Papists to be Hereticks , and avoid their communion no less then of the Jews : Most of these ●lso is common to the Abassines , who also admit Marriages of Priests and Bishops , and eat flesh on Fridayes , communicate standing in both kinds .

Are all these nothing ? What , no one difference , with this Popish Veridicus ? I will not desire him to take my word for all this , because I will not take his for the contrary , nor will I turn him to any Protestant for satisfaction , unless he will better use that one which himself citeth ( Sands Relation of the West . Relig. or Europae Specul . p. 234. &c. ) But I may with reason intreat him to believe his own brethren the Papists , and the Greeks themselves : And in some of them he may see many more differences then I have here named : For example in their Possevin . de Rebus Moscov . at large . See also Concil. Florent . Sess . 18. Jerem. Patriarch . Const. in Resp. 1. ad Germ. Zonar . Ann●l . T●m . 3. in Imper. Leo. Nilus de Primat . Papae . ●a●lam de Primatu Papae . figebert in Chron. ad 〈◊〉 1054. Leo & Epist. ad Episcop. Constant . Jacob ● Vitriaco histor. Orient . Sigism . de Rebus Musc● . Guagu . descript. Muscov . Saecram de Errorib . ●●the● . Boleri . Relat. Thom. a Jes . Conver. Gent. G●iliel . de Rubri . Itiner . Tartar . Oforius de Reb. Emanuel . Saligniac . Itiner . Alphons . a Castro contr. Haeres . Damian a Goes . Prateol . de Haerefib . Alvarez hist●r . Ethiop . ( which yet have much falshood ) Gui● sum● . de Haerefib . Burchardus Descript. te●● . Sanct.

If our confuter cannot have leisure to read all these , let him onely read Thom. a Jes . & Possevin . de●eb . Moscov . & Apparat. Sacra . and see to his shame what his own friends say against his falshoods .

And that all these Christians are as considerable as all the Papists in the world , far over matching them for number , is apparent : Much more when we adde to the Grecians and Moscovites , and Copti's , all the Syrians , the Georgians , the Indians of Saint Thomas the Abassines , the Nestorians , the Jacobits , the Armenians , and the Maronites , and to them as Protestants , where then is the Papists Universality , and how few are they comparatively , and how plainly do they play the Donatists ( but that it is on a far worse ground ? )

The Patriarch of Constantinople alone hath under him in Asia ( as Brierwood noteth ) the Christians of Natolia ( excepting Armenia the less and Cilicia ) of Circassia , of Mengrelia , and of Russia : And in Europe also the Christians of Greece , Macedon , Epirus Thrace , Bulgaria , Rascia , Sextia , Bosnia , Walachia , Moldavia , Podolia , and Muscovia ( till lately ) together with all the Islands of the Aegean Sea , and others about Greece , as far as Corfu , with much more .

And as is noted in Curopalat . de Offic. Palas . Constant . & Offic Mag. Eccl. he hath under him , The Archbishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia ; 2. Ephesus , 3. Heraclea , 4. Ancyra , 5. Cizicum , 6. Sardis , 7 , Nicomedia , 8. Nice , 9. Calcedon , 10. Mitylene , 11. Thessalonica , 12. Laodicea , 13. Synadae , 14. Iconium , 15. Corinth , 16. Athens , 17. Patrae , 18. Trapezuntium , 19. Larissae , 20 Naupactus , 21. Adrianopolis . These are all Archbishops , and have many Bishops under them , viz. Of Muscovy 17. of Larissae 13. of Athens 11. of Corinth 10. of Tessalonica 9. &c.

And if these be under the Patriarch of Constantinople alone , how great a number are all the rest in the great Empire of the Abassines , and elsewhere through the rest of the Christian world ?

I do not mention all these to intimate either that multitudes prove them or any to have the best cause , if we were in all things of their mindes , or as if I preferred them for Arts and Civil Policy to the Romanes , but to shew both the haniousness of the Popish Schisme that would unchurch so many , and the cruelty of their censures that would damne so many , and the Impudency of their pretence of Universality , and their vaine boasting of [ All the Church ] when they are so small a part of the Church , and more bad then small .

But we have been too long on this : let us come to the confuters next untruth ; and that is [ That the Grecians , &c. do in no one point agree with Protestants as such ] what hath been said doth sufficiently shame that fiction .

But he instanceth in our differences : And 1. he saith [ The Grecians hold one supreme head of the whole Church under Christ ] Repl. An immodest fiction to uphold a cause that s like it .

2. He saith [ The Grecians hold the Real presence of our Saviours body and blood in the Eucharist ] Repl. not Transubstantiation ; which they deny : The But Protestants do hold some kind of Reall presence .

3. He saith [ The Grecians defend the necessity of Baptisme to salvation , and that Original sin is remitted thereby ] Repl. And the Protestants hold it necessary necessitate praecepti , and as an ordinary means where it can be had : And neither the Greeks nor all your own dare damne all Infants that dye before Baptisme , when it could not be had ; but you say that the Votum may serve turne . And also Protestants hold that if the Infants be within the Covenant , as it pardoneth their Original sin primarily , so Baptisme pardoneth it by way of obsignation and solemne conveyance : But what is all this to your error that Original sin is not onely remitted , but quite extinct or done away out of our natures by Baptisme ; so that the new baptized Infant , is perfectly without any Radical sin , as well as without the Guilt of it ?

4. He saith [ They say that works do justifie with faith : You not ] Repl. They say that we are not justified by the Merit of Works , but by the alone Merit of Christ ; and so do we . We deny not in every sence that [ we are Justified by Works , and not by faith onely ] for in James his sence we maintain it ; else we should deny the Scripture : The question is not therefore absolutely , whether we are Justified by Works ? but , In what sence we are , and in what not ? We say that Christ is the onely Satisfier of Gods Justice and Meriter of Righteousness ; and that Faith is the onely Receiving Condition ; and that the Works of the Law that Paul excludeth have no hand in it ; and that the Works of Grace which James takes in , are but conditions without which our Justification ( begun without them ) shall not be continued , and of our finall Absolution or Justification in Judgement ; and so are but a Particular , and not an Universall or Legall Righteousnesse . ( Of which I have given a full account in my Confession . )

5. He saith [ They maintain Freewill , even in the best actions . You not ] Repl. Freewill is either 1. Natural ; which is but its self-determining power , with spontaneity ; and this we deny not ( For who denyeth man to be man , and to have the Facultatem Volendi ? ) Or it is , 2. Moral , and that is 1. Political , when a Governor gives the subject leave to do a thing ; and so we maintain that God giveth our Wills Freedom to all good , and to no evil : Or 2. Ethical , which is nothing but the right inclination and Habits of the will with the absence of the contrary Habits : And so we say that , the better men are , the Freer , that is , the better are their Wills : And the unconverted have not this Freewill : nor the converted in perfection till they come to Glory : For the Freedom is the Goodness . And seeing the Will so far Free Ethically as it is Good , Vertuous or Holy , the Question then is , Whether every mans Will be Good and Holy ? which I am conceited you will not dare to affirme . A covetous man , a drunkard , ●● ungodly man , is as much or more denominated such , from the habite as from the act : he is most vicious that is Habitually so : To say therefore that such a mans Will is Free in this Ethical sence is to say that he is habitually no covetous man , no drunkard , no ungodly man no sinner : which being contrary to unquestionable experience , me thinks should be easily deserted . If you know of any thing else called Freewill besides these three before mentioned , we should be glad to know it too . The natural Essential Freedom , viz. A spontaneous self-determining power , we all confess : The Political Freedome , yea and obligation none denyeth : The Ethical Freedome , that is , Vertuous or holy Inclinations in wicked men , you will deny your selves ; where then is the difference between us and either the Greeks or you .

Why you 'l say , perhaps , that it s here , That we deny the will to have that Indifferency which you affirme , as to opposite objects . But we are loath to sight with you in the Dark . Do you mean by Indifferency an Indifferency of Natural Power , or an indifferency of inclination or Habite ? The first we do not deny : The will is a natural faculty that hath naturally no determination to One , where many means are propounded , but is undetermined , and hath a natural Power to determine it self to either : But yet you know the Wills Natural Power is exercised according to inclining Objects and Habits : And you cannot expect that men who are Habitually in●ined earthwards , should Will Heavenly things and ●●nounce earthly things , meerly because they have a ●atural Power of choosing : for they want that in●●ination , which is called commonly the Moral ●ower : And I should suppose that in regard of this ●oral Power , you will not affirm your selves that he ●ath indifferentiam ad oppositum ? To say that a mans ●ill is indifferently inclined to Good and to Evil , ● to say that the man is habitually neither good nor ●ad , unless as privation of due inclinations denomi●ate him bad . I say the more of this , Dr. JT . ●ecause I finde others of your party , and ●ome that seem to disown both you and us ( as a late Treatise of Repentance among others can witness ) ●o harp so much on this string , and confusedly talke ●f Freewill before they tell us what they mean , and ●o perswade the world that we teach that God hath ●aid such a natural necessity on man to sin as he hath ●o eat and drink and sleep , and that God might as well damne men for being hungry or sleepy , as for being sinful in our sence ! As if there were no more faultiness in a vicious disposition of the Will it selfe , then in a necessary natural inclination or Appetite of those faculties which were never made to rule themselves , but to be moderated by the Will of Reason . It may be these men will either deny the truth of the words of the Holy Ghost , that They that are accustomed to do evil cannot learn to do well no more then a Leopard can change his spots , or a Blackamore his skin ; or else they will think such men excusable because they are so strongly enclined to evil ; and so if a man habituated to Lust shall vitiate their wives , or a man habituated to malice shall beat them often , or maim them , or kill their friends , they may think that he deserveth 〈◊〉 punishment but pity , because he is so bad that 〈◊〉 could not ( morally , that is , he would not ) 〈◊〉 it .

But they say , we teach that mens Wills have a ●●cessity of sinning imposed on them . But we h●●● learnt that Habites do not determine the Will nat●●●ally , nor alway infallibly , but leave it free to a ●●tural self-determination : But yet we know that 〈◊〉 ordinarily determineth it self according to predominant habits . And there must be somewhat extra●●dinary to procure the Will to determine it self 〈◊〉 good where it is habitually inclined to evil . So much may serve to vindicate our Doctrine about Freewill ▪ And as for the cause of its captivity , it belongs no● to this subject to speak of it , but to that of Original sin ( where the said Doctor so notably playes his part ) to which we shall not now digress .

The next instance of the Papist is this [ They ( i●● the Greeks maintain ) seven Sacraments , you not . ] Repl. 1. This is another very immodest untruth : I wonder that men dare venture their souls upon a Religion that must be thus upheld by falshoods . Your own Writers before alledged , witness that the Greeks deny the very use of confirmation and extreame Unction : and how then can they account them Sacraments ! Nor do they take Marriage for a prop●● Sacrament . 2. We cannot dispute this point wi●● you upon the bare name ; Give us the definition of a Sacrament , and we shall give you our Reply . As a Sacrament signifieth any Christian mystery , or mysterious Ordinance signifying some spiritual thing , we doubt not but there are more then seven Sacraments , but not as it signifieth , an instituted signe , to seal the Covenant of Grace , and exhibit its great ●enefits . Calvin hath yielded to you , that in a ●●rger sence Ordination is a Sacrament .

He next addeth [ They say that Christ dyed for all ●ankind ; You say not , but onely for the Elect. ] Repl. ●till more confusion , do not your own Schoolmen ●nd other Divines say that he dyed , for All men suf●●ciently , and for the Elect onely effectually ? And 〈◊〉 do we ! where then is the difference ? Not so much 〈◊〉 this point as in another conjunct : You say that ●●s mans Free-will , that is the chief differencing ●ause , in making Christs death effectual for the sal●ation of the Elect ; and we deny it , and say that 〈◊〉 is Gods special Grace . 2. Do not you know that about this and the former point of Freewill , you differ as much among your selves , and that we say ●o more then your Dominicans do ( no nor so much 〈◊〉 the point of predetermination . ) 3. Do you not ●now that half the Protestants ( those whom you ●all Lutherans ) do hold universal Redemption as well as you ? Be it right or wrong therefore you ●hould not impute the contrary to all .

We say that it was the sins of all mankind and not onely of the Elect that lay upon Christ in his ●uffering : and that God as Legislator of the old vi●lated Law hath received a sufficient satisfaction for ●ll , and that hereupon a conditional Pardon is grant●d to all by a Law of Grace , and that the condition 〈◊〉 but their Acceptance of what is freely offered ( ac●ording to its nature and use ) and that all and onely ●hey that perform this condition shall have Actual pardon and salvation . But then we do not say , that Christ did equally intend the procurement of the performance of this condition : but that he giveth some an inseparable special Grace which shall infallib●● procure it , which he doth not to others , who y● have so much as shall leave them in their own consciences and at his bar without any just excuse . I pra● you shew us next what the Greeks say more then th●● In particular that Reverend man against whom y●● write hath an excellent M.S. abroad for Univer●● Redemption .

The next feigned difference between us and th● Greeke is this [ They confess that God hath given sufficient Grace to every one to be saved : You 〈◊〉 but only to the Elect ] Repl. You again wrong them shew us where they say so if you can . You own th● Doctrine your selves it seems ; and thereby discover your enmity to Grace ; Do you think that every childe , ignorant sot , or wicked person ha● Grace sufficient to salvation ? If he have sufficient , either he needs no more , or he may be saved without more . And then it seems converting Grace i● needless to an Infidel , for he hath enough already : then it seems , you will be beholden to God for no more Grace after the first hour of your conversion , nay after the first hour of your life or use of reason , to your death . For if you had sufficient for salvation the first hour , then what need you any more ▪ you will it seems pray God to keep it to himself , for you have enough already . I will tell you what th● Greeks and we , and some of your selves hold , th●● is , that every man hath so much Grace ( th●● is , Helpe and Mercy contrary to Merit ) as is in ● own kind sufficient to make him better then he is , and to bring him neerer to Christ or salvation , and which his owne will is obliged to make effectual by ● right entertainment and improvement , and might do : But we do not say that all men have sufficient ●race to believe to justification , or sufficient to sal●●tion ; nay we say that no Believer hath sufficient grace to salvation , till the soul pass from the body : ●r still he hath need of preserving Grace to the last ●eath . Men that are at a great distance from Christ ●ay have sufficient Grace to come neer to him ; ●d justly perish if they refuse or abuse such Grace , ●ough they never had Grace sufficient to believe ; ●ecause it is their own fault that they had it ●ot .

The next pretended difference , is [ They pray and ●er Sacrifice for the dead : You not ] Repl. I will see ●our proof of this too , before I will believe you . ●e know they do it not in the Popish sence , that for delivering souls out of the fire of Purgatory , because they deny such a state . If you will read this ●everend Bishop whom you oppose in his Answer to ●e Jesuites challenge , on that point , you will see ●e difference between the Ancients ( and so the ●reeks ) praying for the dead and yours .

He addeth [ They invocate Saints and Angels ; you ●ot ] Repl. Of this also see Bishop Vsher in the fore●ted place . We take this for their error : and we ●o not take our selves to be of a different Church or ●eligion from every one that erreth .

He next addeth [ They worship the Cross and Im●ges : you not ] Repl. But they do it not as many of ●ours , with Divine worship . Their worship is but ●everence for the Relation sake ; and they will not so ●uch as use any Statues or Graven Images as you ●o . And do not those you call Lutherans , do as ●hey in this ( though how rightly I say not ? )

He addes [ They honor reliques : you not ] Rep. 〈◊〉 honor them as far as they have any true Relation 〈◊〉 any honorable person . But we will not therefo●● carry them about us to keep away the Devil , 〈◊〉 forge a multitude of lies about tbe cures which the miraculously perform : Nor do the Greeks so far 〈◊〉 I know or hear .

The next is [ They maintain Traditions : you 〈◊〉 ] Repl. They renounce your Traditions which are pretended to be part of Gods Word , supplying the ●●fects of Scripture which is but the other half : 〈◊〉 they maintain the sufficiency of Scripture to salva●●on . And some Traditions both they and we maintai● As the Tradition of the Scriptures themselves do 〈◊〉 to our hands ; the Tradition of the Sum of Chri●●●anity in the Creed and Baptism , &c. Of which 〈◊〉 what I have said elswhere , in the Preface to the seco●● part of the Saints Rest Edit. 2. &c. And in the d●termination in a book called , The unreasonableness 〈◊〉 Infidelity : And see what the Bishop , whom you oppose hath said against the Jesuite on Tradition .

The next is [ They Au●icular confession : you not ▪ ] Rep. 1. The Christians that deny your communion are divided in this : These called Nestorians and ●●ny more deny Auricular Confession : and others 〈◊〉 it . 2. We deny not our selves , but that it is the duty 〈◊〉 Christians when sin lyeth on their consciences , 〈◊〉 when they have faln into it , and know not the wa● out again to have recourse to their faithful judicio●● Guides for advice herein for the safety of their sou●● and so far to confess as is necessary to such advice a●● safety . But we do not believe that we are bound to tell the Priest of every sin , no nor of every ●●●●ous sin : for in some cases we may have a fitter cure ▪ will not go to a Pyhsician for every prick of a pin , ● cut finger , which many neighbors or my self can ●re as well as he : I will not so far needlesly trouble ●m : Nor will I go to a bad unfaithful Physician , ●hen I can have a better ; nor yet to an ignorant ●an , because he hath got the degree of a Doctor of ●hysicke , when I may go to an able man that pro●sseth not Physick . You know the Applicati●n .

Its next said [ They Euangelical councels and works ● supererrogation : You not ] Rep. We acknowledge ●hat there are many very good works . 1. Which ●re the duty of some few Christians upon some speci●l occasions , and not of all or most . 2. Which are so ●he duty of those few , as that yet many of them are ●aved that perform them not ; being not made of the ●ame necessity to salvation as some other duties are . And we see not how any man can reasonably imagine , ●hat there is any work more excellent than others , which yet is not a duty ; when God hath commanded us to love him with all our heart , and might , and ●trength ; and to imploy all talents to the utmost for his Glory : and that any Duty can be neglected without sin , is as absurd . How the Greeks and we differ in this , we shall better know when you shew and prove it to us

He next adds [ They the Merit of good Works : you not ] We acknowledge , that Good Works are pleasing to God through Christ , and rewardable ; and they say in sence no more : We thinke not meet to quarrel about the meer name . They renounce and abhorre the Popish Merit of condignity ex proportione operis ; as is before said .

In the next place the confuter alledgeth his proofs of all these differences from us , and consent with them . The first proof is out of Act. Theolog. Witte●berg . in Crispin . de statu Eccles. in these words [ Th● Greek and Romane Church are divided onely in the contoversie of Primacy , and variety of Ceremony ] Rep● . I have not Crispinius now by me , and therefore 〈◊〉 make no other answer but this , that if he be truel● alledged , yet 1. Abundance of great differences ( 〈◊〉 about Sacraments , Orders , Traditions , &c. ) may be comprised in that of Ceremony . 2. Else your own Writers will tell you that this is a mistake .

His second proof is from Sir Edwin Sands Europ● Specul . To which I say 1. How unworthily did you conceal the multitude of differences mentioned in the same Author in the same place between you and th● Greeks , and say there was but one ? 2. By Purgatory Sands tells you after he means not your Purgatory : And it s known the Greeks deny it : Though they think that the Saints have some less degree of glory distant from the face of God before the resurrection . 3. About Transubstantiation and the M●ss Sands is mistaken . The Greeks hold a kind of Real presence , but not Transubstantiation : And the Mass of the Papists doth abundantly differ from theirs ( as in the denyal of Transubstantiation , elevation , &c. may appear , and is at large by many of ours e●pressed , which may save me the labor of a recital . )

Next the ignorant Priest would by a Syllogisme prove the Bishop a Papist , and in the making of his Syllogisme he is out before he could reach the conclusion , and begins again , and yet would not blot out his former error , so wary is he that he lose not a line of his own writing . The mended Syllogisme is his [ Those who embrace the Communion of the Greci●n Church notwitstanding the error of supremacy , ●annot in reason refuse the Communion of the Romane ●or the same : But Mr. Ushers Church embraceth the Communion of the Greek Church notwithstanding that Error : Therefore , &c. ] Repl. 1. To the Major it is ●alsly supposed that we refuse your Communion for ●hat Error alone : It is for that with abundance more . 2. To the Minor , I answer by denying it : and say you shamelesly slander the Greek Church : They main●ain not any Power of Governing the whole Church as the head of it , and Christs Vicar general , nor any infallibility , &c. as you do .

Next he will prove that Mr. Vshers Church can have no Union or Communion with the Greek Church at all : and that by this Syllogisme [ That Church which is a member of another Church , that other Church must also be a member of it : But the Greek Church is no member of Mr. Ushers Church : therefore Mr. Ushers is no member of the Greek Church . ] The Minor he proveth from Jeremias Patriarch of Constantinople and Respons. Basil . Ducis Moscov . Rep. 1. The part is not a part of another part , a member is not a member of another co-ordinate member ; but of the whole . 2. I say the proofs of your Minor are vain . It is not two mens sayings that ●an make the Greek Church and the Protestants so dis-joyned as not to be members of the Universal Church . If Italy tell France , and France again tell Italy that they are no part of Europe , it is not therefore true . If Canterbury tell York that they are not a part of England , it is not therefore true . Every childe is not a Bastard that is so called by an angry brother . If Patriarch Jeremiah fit yo●● turn ( which I know not , for I have not seen him ) why may not we as well plead the consent of Pat●iarch Cyrill , whose Protestant confession you may see in Alstedius's Euclucopaedia , and elsewhere ?

Next he comes to the Abassines , where ( after the mention of their circumcision ) he as falsly affirmeth , that [ In all other things they profess the faith of the Catholike Church acknowledging the Pope the supreme head thereof , and Christs Vicar upon earth ] which he proves by a confession exhibited to Gregory the 13. and recorded by Possevine . Rep. This is to make the foundation like the superstructure , and defend falshood with falshood : If you were so ignorant your selves as not to know the Romane jugling about that confession , you could not imagine the learned Bishop so ignorant . Not onely your own Godigam de rebus Abassinorum , may tell you , but the generality , of your faction may sure inform you by this time , that all your cunning industry cannot get the Abassines under your Papal Yoak . And if you should prevail for the time to come , that s nothing to the time past . The Abassines ( to let pass their errors wherein they differ from you and us ) do communicate in both kinds , they believe the souls of Infants departing unbaptized to be saved because they spring from faithful parents : They reject Statues ●● massy Images : They elevate not the Sacrament , nor reserve it after Communion : Their Priests , labor , but beg not : The Emperor conferreth Bishopricks and Benefices : They use no confirmation nor extreame unction : They admit a first marriage in Bishops and Priests : They eat flesh on Fridays . And yet this man saith they differ not from them .

The second Chapter is the meer ebullition of foolish malice , deserving no reply to those that do not desire to be deceived . He would prove that according to these laxe principles of our charity , we may agree with Jews , Turkes , Mahometans ! As if we needed a dispute to prove that these are no Christians , and that the Greeks , Abassines , &c. are : But such disputes do the Papists put us upon .

The Bishop had concluded in his Sermon , that [ If we should survey the several professions of Christianity that have any large spread in any part of the world , and put by the points wherein they differ one from another , and gather into one body the rest of the Articles wherein all generally agree , we should finde so much truth in them , as being joyned with holy obedience may be sufficient to bring a man to everlasting salvation ; neither have we cause to doubt but as many as do walk according to this rule , neither overthrowing that which they have builded by superinducing any damnable heresies thereupon , nor otherwise vitiating their holy faith , with a leud and wicked conversation , Peace shall be upon them and Mercy and upon the Israel of God . ]

And what hath the Confuter to say against this ? Why first he begins with the Sacraments , to try whether those commonly agreed on may save . And here he first tells us , that [ Some Churches are for seven , some for three , and some for two , ●●d no more : therefore here is no agreement ] Rep. 1. Le● the nominal differences about the word Sacrament be first laid by ( unless you think that word necessary to salvation ) and then we shall the better see what real difference remaineth . 2. The two Sacraments then are confessed by all , and the use of the rest which you call Sacraments : This much ( in its own place ) then may save , where no more is confessed . 3. You vainly put in the exclusion of more , for that s none of the things that all agree on : All agree that there are two Sacraments : and those may save . But all agree not that there is but two . This man therefore seems to dote ; when he should gather up the common agreements according to the Bishops proposal , he gathers up the disagreements , or vainly pretendeth that we agree in nothing . What , do not you confess that Baptisme and the Lords Supper are Sacraments ? and do not we do so too ?

Next he comes to the use of Baptisme , and saith that [ The Romanes and Greeks , say , that there is no other use of baptisme but to wash away sin : The Protestants of England and Geneva say , that it is no laver of Regeneration at all , but onely a seal of Gods promise made to the party baptized : and that the childe unbaptized may be saved and the baptized damned . ] Repl. 1. You make your selves ( much more the Greeks ) worse then you are . Do not your own maintain that Baptism admitteth into the Church and granteth many other priviledges , besides washing away sin . 2. We say , that to the children of promise it doth secondarily and by obsignation wash away ( or pardon ) sin by way of obsignation and solemne exhibition , as the promise doth primarily as a deed of gift or legal Grant : as also that in the same way it secondarily conveyeth further Grace according to the capacity of the subject , and admitteth into the Church . And all this is commonly confest by your selves and all Christians of the Greek or Abassine Churches , &c. This much alone without your additions is as much ( at least ) as is necessary to salvation , to be believed concerning baptism .

Next he cometh to the Lords Supper , and saith , that one party holdeth the real presence and the other not ? And what of this ? Doth that prove the insufficiency of what all are agreed on ? what we hold , you deny not : We hold the signifying , and sealing and exhibiting use of the Sacrament ( though we deny Transubstantiation ) And dare you deny these ? We hold that it is the commemoration of the sacrifice of Christs body and blood offered once on the Cross for the sins of the world : and that it is a means of Church-communion : And dare you deny these ? Lay by your Additions , and that which we are all agreed in is enough to salvation .

His next instance is about Faith ; Because we say , that Historical faith may be in Devils , and Miraculous faith in the wicked , and Calvin defineth justifying faith to be a firme and certain knowledge of the love of God to us , &c. and the Lutherans , that it is an undoubted perswasion of the pardon of our sins and adoption , &c. and this faith is by the Councel of Trent condemned to the pit of hell , therefore he concludeth that there is no saving faith common to Papists and Protestants .

Repl. Here again you vainly and fallaciously bring in the disagreements , and over pass the agreements . 1. We are agreed that all those which the Protestants call the Canonical books of Scripture are the word of God : and true , and particularly all the Articles of the Creed , and many things more : We are agreed that Christ and life is offered by the Universal promise in the Gospel to all that hear it : and that all must first believe the truth of this promise and then heartily consent to the offer and accept the benefit , and also believe and fear the threatning , and joyn sincere love and obedience to all this . This we are all agreed in : And this is certainly saving to all that sincerely believe and do as they thus profess . But then , whether Historical faith be common or not ? whether assurance or strong perswasion of pardon , be faith , or justifying faith , with other the like , these we are not agreed in ; and without these we may be saved .

The next exception is only this , The Bishop tells us not what be those Heresies that destroy this common faith . Rep. And doth that cross his former charitable conclusion ? What ? because he undertakes not an alien task ? Why in general , they are any thing that is so held as that the common Articles of faith cannot be held with it , and that practically .

The sum of the next passage , is this [ That its absurd for us to call them the true Church , or say they may be saved , when we have charged them with so much error and idolatry , &c ] Repl. 1. We onely say that you are a polluted part of the Church . 2. If your salvation be made so difficult by your errors look you to that : The Bishops conclusion ( of the sufficiency of the communiter credita ) is nevertheless sound , though you destroy your selves by your corrupt additions . 3. Multitudes among you believe not your Infallibility , Transubstantiation , and many the like errors . 4. Many that behold them as opinions speculatively , may yet hold the contrary truthes practically , not discerning the contradiction .

I would gladly have shewed the vainty of the rest of that Pamphlet , because I see he hath contracted most of their common cavils into a narrow room ; but the rest is less to our present purpose , and the same things are already answered by many ; and therefore I shall no further Digress in the pursuit of this Confuter , having already said so much against the chief of their objections , as may leave the impartial Reader confirmed in it , That notwithstanding the Popish cavils to the contrary , it is apparent , that the Christian Catholike Reformed Religion commonly called Protestant is a safe way to Salvation .

Query . Whether Popery be a safe way to Salvation ? Neg.

IT is not as other mens Judges that we determine this Question ; to their own master do they stand or fall : but it is to render an account of our own Belief and practice , and for our further confirmation in the truth for the defence of it against gain-sayers , and for the establishing of our people against the sophistry and seduction of Deceivers .

For the explication of the terms , I shall tell you 1. What I mean by Popery . 2. What I mean by Salvation . 3. What by the way to it . 4. What by the word Safe .

1. Popery is a certain farrago , a mixture of many grievous errors in the doctrine of Faith , Government and Worship , expressed in their Authorized writings , especially in their decretals and Councils , corrupting the Christian Religion which they profess ; the whole being denominated from that one falshood , that the Pope of Rome is , the Universall Bishop , and Visible Head of the Universal Church and Christs Vicar-General on earth , and that only is the Catholike Church , and those only Catholiks that so believe .

Where note 1. That the Papists professing to be Christians , do first own the substance of Christian doctrine , and then corrupt it , and contradict it by this fardle of their own inventions superadded . They profess to believe the holy Scriptures to be the word of God , and to be true : every Book that we believe ( and more ) They profess to believe all the Articles of the ancient Creeds commonly called the Apostles , the Nicene , or Constantinopolitane . It is not the Christianity or true doctrine which they profess , which we call Popery . 2. It is therefore onely their own invented corruptions , by which they contradict the Christian verity which they profess , which we call Popery . 3. Note , That the common denominating corruption , is the forementioned doctrine of the Popes Universal Episcopacy and Headship , or a supreamacy at least , if not Infallibility : and that the Catholike Church , and the Romane Church is all one : and the Pope is the visible center of its Unity . 4. Note also that as to the rest of their corruptions , they agree not among themselves what is to be esteemed of their faith or Religion , and what not : and therefore it cannot be expected that we should give you an exact enumeration of the points of their faith , and so a compleat description of Popery , which is such a self-contradicting unreconcileable hodg podge . But their errors may be distributed into these three rankes . 1 Those that are established by the Pope and his ( supposed ) general Councel : These they all receive and own . 2. Those that are established by the Popes Decretals without a Council . These some own as points of their faith , and some reject them . I will not adde as the third ▪ those that are established by a Council without the Pope ; not because there never was a Council that dissented from him in Good , but because it is a difficult matter at least to find any Council that did go beyond or without him in Evil , or erred without his Approbation . 3. The third sort therefore shall be those opinions that are commonly maintained by their most Approved Writers which are published in books that are licensed and commended by the Popes Authorized agents , but are not determined by the Pope or his Council . These though they contend for , and lay great weight on them in their disputations , yet dare they not own them as any part of the matter of their faith , lest they seem to be what they are ; divided and mutable ▪ A man would think that those volumnious hot disputes about Divine things , did intimate that the Authors did fide divin● believe those points which they do so zealously dispute of . But if it be their pleasure , that we should so distinguish , we will call the rest the Popish faith or Religion , and these last , the Popish opinions , because we would fasten on them nothing but their own .

If you ask me , which be those doctrines which they take for points of faith , which we call Popery ; I must refer you to their Decretals and Councils on one side , and Gods word on the other ; and all the Doctrines in those their Canons or determinations that are against the word of God , are the doctrines which we mean by this name . If they do lay greater stress upon any one point than others , its likely to be on those that are put into their Creeds and Vows , and therefore I shall onely recite the latter half of their Tridentine Creed , seeing they will own that or ●othing : When they have begun with the ancient Constantinopolitane Creed , containing the true Principles of Christian Religion , and have ended that they proceed thus as followeth .

The Apostolical and Ecclesiastical traditions , and the rest of the Observations and constitutions of the same Church , I do most firmely admit and embrace . I admit also the sacred Scripture according to that sence which the Holy Mother the Church hath held and doth hold , to whom it belongeth to judge of the true sence and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures : and I will never take and interpret it , but according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers . I do profess also that there are seven truely and properly Sacraments of the new Law instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord , and necessary to the salvation of mankind , ●hough not all to every one ; to wit , Baptisme , Confirmation , the Eucharist , Pennance , extreame Vncti●n , Order , and Matrimony : and that they confer ●race ; and that of these , Baptisme , Confirmation , and Order , cannot be reiterated without Sacriledge . I do also receive and admit the received and approved Rites of the Catholike Church in the solemne Administration of all the aforesaid Sacraments . I do embrace and receive all and singular things which in the Holy Council of Trent were defined and declared about Original sin and Justification . In like manner I do profess that in the Mass there is offered to God a true p●per , and propitiatory sacrifice for the living , and f● the dead ; and that in the most holy Srcrament of ● Eucharist there is Truely , Really , and Substanti●●y the body and blood , together with the soul and Di●●nity of our Lord Jesus Christ ; and that there 〈◊〉 change made of the whole substance of Bread ● the Body , and of the whole substance of Wine 〈◊〉 blood ; which change the Catholike Church c●l● Trasubstantiation . I confess also that under one 〈◊〉 onely , whole and entire Christ , and the true Sa●●ment is taken . I do constantly hold that there is a P●rgatory , and that the souls there detained are h●lp●● by the suffrages of the faithful . As also that the Sai●● raigning with Christ , are to be reverenced and called upon , and that they do offer prayers to God for m● and their reliques are to be reverenced ( or honoured ) I do most firmely assert that the Images of Christ , and of the Mother of God-ever a Virgin , as also of other Sai●● are to be had and kept , and that due honor and V●●ration is to be given them . I affirm also that the power of Indulgences is left by Christ in the Church , a● that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people . I acknowledge that the holy Catholike and Ap●stolike Church of Rome , is the Mother and Mistris ● all Churches : And I do promise and swear true Obedience to the Pope of Rome successor of Blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles , and the Vicar of Jesus Chris● Also all other things delivered , defined and declare● by the sacred Canons , and Oecumenical Councils , a● especially of the holy Synod of Trent , I do with●● doubting receive and profess : and also all things c●●trary , and all heresies whatsoever condemned by th● Church , and rejected ; and Anathematized , do I i● like manner condemne , reject and Anathematize . This ●rue Catholike faith , without which no man can be sa●ed , which at the present I do voluntarily professe , ●nd truely hold , the same will I take care to hold and ●onfess entire and inviolate , by Gods help , most con●antly , even to the last breath of my life ; and as much ●s in me lyeth , to be held , taught and preached , by ●hose that are under me , or those whose care belongs to ●e in my office . This I.N. do Promise , Vow , and ●wear , so help me God , and these holy Gospels of God .

So far the Trent Confession , which I the ra●her recite that you may see what their Religion is ● their own words and oaths ; where you see also ●●at this is but a small part of it ; for it is moreover ● large , as all the Council of Trent , and all other ●ecumenical Councils and holy Canons ; of the Im●ossibilities and self-contradictions of which faith , we ●hall say more anon .

So that I conclude that it is not Christianity , but ●is additional Leprosie which we call by the name of ●opery : they believe this much more then we ( or a ●reat part more ) and by believing more , they believe ●ss , while they destroy the sound faith which they ●efore seemed to profess .

2 For the next term to be explained [ Salvation ] ●e mean by it principally , Everlasting Glory ; and ●ithall those beginnings of it inclusively which we ●ve in this life , consisting in our Justification , A●option , Sanctification , Consolation , and Perse●erance .

3. By the term [ Way ] we mean , such necessary ●eans as are prescribed us by God for the attainment ● Salvation , either as to our Belief , or our Affection and Practice according to the directions of the doctrine which we do believe .

4. As to the sence of the word [ Safe ] it signifieth that which is free from danger , or which tendeth to a mans welfare . Now here is a double safety considerable in Doctrines answerable to a double danger . First , it s one thing to be safe from any sin in the way to Salvation ; and so we may well say that Popery is no safe way which leadeth to so much sin : But that s not all that is here intended : But it s another matter to be so deep in sin , as not to be safe from the Everlasting Punishment , but that salvation it self is endangered thereby : and this we principally intend . And whereas there are several Degrees of Danger , we mean that true Popery heartily entertained and practiced , doth leave but small probability , if any possibility , of the Salvation of any that do persevere impenitently therein to the end .

Though you may see what I deny in what is already said , yet for the greater perspicuity , I shall express my sence in these few Propositions following .

Prop. 1. That Christian doctrine contained in the holy Scriptures which the Papists do profess to believe , is of it self without their corruptions , a safe way to salvation .

Prop. 2. Whatever errors are held by Papists or any others , which do consist with a true practic● belief of the foresaid Christian doctrine which they confess , and we are agreed in , those errors sh●●● not exclude the erroneous from Salvation .

Prop. 3. The Papists do not expresly in terms and sence deny any fundamental point of faith .

Prop. 4. It s possible even practically to hold an error , which by remote consequence contradicteth a fundamental Truth , and yet to hold that truth practically , and so to be saved . For either all moral ●errots in Theology ( as Amesius thought ) do contradict the Foundation by consequence , by reason of the necessary concatenation of Truthes ; or most at least .

Prop. 5. There are some errors so great that if they were cordially and practically held , would be inconsistent with the cordial practical holding of the Foundation ; which yet may be held but speculatively and notionally in consistency with the cordial and practical belief of the fundamentals ; and the person not knowing the contradiction may be saved .

Prop. 6. Multitudes of people while they take common termes in Divinity in a wrong sence , do maintain Propositions which by plain consequence , if not directly contradict the Fundamentals according to the proper genuine sence of the words ; when yet in the sence as they mistake and misuse them in , there is no contradiction . Even as many on the other side , do hold the Christian verity in words , who in sence deny it .

Prop. 7. We have great reason to think that many millions of the Laity among the Papists , if not the far greatest part of them , do not cordially embrace the most of the Popish corruptions in doctrinals , nor the most dangerous of them .

1. Because they do not understand them , and so cannot so much as speculatively receive them . It is not one of a hundred , perhaps of many hundreds among them , that knows all contained in the Council of Trent alone , much less in all the rest of the Council , and Canons and customes wherein they place their Religion . Nay perhaps it s but few of their Clergy that know this comparatively . So that it is but an implicite general belief that they can give to such Canons as are unknown , which is not a belief of the particular doctrines contained in them , as such .

2. Because ( I hope among most or many of them ) they are first taught the Creed , the Lords Prayer , and ten Commandments ( or at least the Creed , and Decalogue , though the Lords Prayer be usually taught them in Latine ) which contain the Fundamentals of Christian faith and practice : and therefore we have reason to hope that these are deeper in their minds then any contradictory doctrines : especially when they must have so much time afterward , to build upon this foundation their hay and stubbles , that we have great reason to hope that it is but few that throughly understand or entertaine them .

3. Because we know that the generality of the people , or a very great part of them , do look upon their Clergy as having a carnal self-interest to carry on , and so far have hard and different thoughts of them ; though they are yet captivated by them too much .

4. Because we see that the Pope is faine to keep them in subjection by the most cruel force of secular power : by the bloody inquisition , tormenting and burning them , or rasing wars against them to ruine them ; or else by worldly honors , dignities , and riches to entice and ensnare them ; which were needless if he could carry it by the cogent evidence of his doctrines or their understandings .

5. Because we see by experience , that even here with us among their few most zealous and voluntary Proselites , it is but very few that call themselves Romane Catholikes , or Papists , that indeed know what Popery is : Nay most of them , if you do but name some points of the Popish faith , will tell you that you slander them ; and they hold no such thing . I have talked with many of the Laity , and find very few that will own the doctrine of mans Merits , but profess to rest on the Merits of Christ onely : The like I could say of other points : By which it is plain that the Priests do hide from the Laity so much of the venome of their doctrine as they think will prove distastful to them , and dare not let them know the worst .

Prop. 8. These persons before described , together with that part of the Clergy , who cast off much of the Romane corruptions , and yet adhere to their party , are not full and compleat Papists , but onely Papists secundum quid , incompleat , and of a lower sort , and so are not in so great danger of damnation as the rest : even as the Scab is not so bad as the Morphew , nor the Morphew so mortal as the Elephantiasis , or the full Leprosie ; though all are of kindred one to another .

9. Pro. Yet these better sort of Papists are commonly tainted with so much of their corruptions as makes their salvation much more difficult ; so that we may well judge that it is fewer by far that are saved among them , then in the Reformed Churches . Even as it is possible for men to scape catching the Plague that live among the infected , and its possible for the infected to escape with their lives , but where one scapes many dye , and it s I think more dangerous to live in an infected house or air then in a sound one .

Prop. 10 , A man that cordially and practically receiveth the whole body of Popery , and so is a co●pleat Papist , is in so great danger of eternal damnation , as that it is a very hard question whether it be possible for him at the same time to hold cordially the fundamentals of Christianity , and so to be in a state of Salvation ? Which because it is so hard a question that Protestant Divines are of different opinions about it , some thinking it possible for such to be saved , and some impossible , I will not presume here to determine it , seeing the matter in hand doth not call for the determination of it .

Prop. 11. Whosoever is saved among the Papists ; whether he be more or less tainted with theirs errors , it is not By Popery that he is saved , but from Popery , or against it by the Christian faith . So that if a Papist may be saved , it must be as a Christian , and not as a Papist : Popery and Christianity having some contrariety ; so that it must be by the prevalency and predominency of the Christian faith against Popery if ever he be saved . If a lyer might be saved it must not be by lying , but by faith in Christ and repentance . If a Leper , or one that hath the Plague , or the like diseases , may live , it must not be by the Leprosie or Plague that they must live ; but by natural vigor and the help of Medicine by which they are preserved from the killing power of these diseases ,

And here you may take notice , what a fond and vain delusion it is , by which the Priests do perswade the poor people that their Religion is a safer way to heaven then ours , even because that we confess a Papist may be saved , but they affirm that a Protestant cannot be saved . For 1. Some Protestants think they may be saved , and some deny it . 2. Those that think they may be saved do withall think that it is not by Popery , but against it and fro● it . 3. And they think that its very hard , and therefore that they are very few that are saved among them , in comparison of the number saved among us . And is not this a fair and comfortable encouragement to their poor seduced followers , that some among us confess that as its possible for here and there one to escape of a raging Pestilence , so may some Papists be saved . 4. Their condemning of all Protestants doth make themselves worse , but it makes us never the worse , nor our case ever the more dangerous . Christ hath told us that all men shall know us to be his disciples , by Loving one another , and hath bid us , judge not that we be not judged , for with what judgement we judge , we shall be judged : and Paul tells us , that charity thinketh not evil , but hopeth all things : Is it then a good & Christian arguing to say that they are safer then we , because they are more c●nsorious , and rash condemners of others ? Then he that hath least Charity is of the safest Religion . Suppose that a company shut up in a Pesthouse , being raging mad with the Plague , or otherwise distempered in their brain , should cry out , that all the Town are sick and will certainly dye , except themselves . Were it wise reasoning now to say [ You confess that some of those that are sick in the Pesthouse may escape ; but they say that none of you that are out can escape , therefore it is safer to be with them then with you . ] Even such is the reasoning of the Popish Priests in the present case . It is the disease of Popery that of its own nature causeth them to condemne all the world except themselves : And it is because we are free from their disease , that makes us not so rash and hasty in condemning them : But yet as charitable as we are to them , we are so charitable withall to our selves , that we would not be in their case , for all the world .

Prop. 12. We may well conclude therefore that whether a Papist may be saved or not , that certainely Popery is no safe way to Salvation .

If a cup of Poison be tempered for the killing of men , and one drinks it all , and dyeth , another drinks almost all , and dyeth , another drinks lesse , and yet using no remedy dyeth , another drinks but a little , or taking more , yet useth some effectual Remedy , and so with much ado scapeth death . I think , notwithstanding the scaping of these last , we may well conclude that [ Poison is no safe or wholesome food . ]

I come now to prove the Proposition last expressed .

In general 1. Popery is No way to salvation ; Therefore it is no safe way . God hath no where prescribed it as a way to salvation ; therefore it is not a way to salvation .

2. It is the way toward damnation , and from salvation ; therefore it is no safe way to salvation .

The proof of all together shall be next fetcht from some general reasons drawn from the dangerous nature of Popery ; For if I should descend to every particular error I must be voluminous , and do that which is sufficiently done by multitudes already .

Arg. 1. Those doctrines which are founded upon a Notorious falshood , and resolved into it , are not a safe way to Salvation . But such are the doctrines which we call Popery : Therefore .

For the Minor , They are founded on and resolved into the doctrine of the Popes Infallibility , or at least his Councils : This the Papists do confess and maintain . But that this is a Notorious falshood , is evident .

1. In that it is notorious that Popes have erred , and judicially erred , and erred in matters of faith . Bellarmine is put to answer to no less then fourty instances of erring Popes ; and how shamefully or shamelesly he doth it , any Learned man that will search the records and peruse the case , may soon discover .

2 It is notorious that Councils have erred . I shall not now intermix my Testimonies to interrupt the plain course which I have begun , but rather give you the proof of all this distinctly by it self in the next disputation .

3. The Papists themselves confess this that we affirm . I mean , One part of them do confess that the Pope may err ( as the French ) and the other ( the Italians and Spaniards ) confess that a Council may erre . One saith the Infallibility is not seated in the Pope ; and the other that it is not sealed in a Council , particular or general , of which see Bellarmine de Conciliis lib. 2. cap. 10. & 11. In which last he seeks to prove that a General Council may erre . 1. When they dissent from the Popes Legates . 2. And when they consent with the L●gates , if those Legates do cross the Popes instructions . 3. Yea if the Legates have no certain Instructions , the Council and all they , may consent in error : And he proves the two former by the instance of the second Council of Ephesus , and the Constantinopolitane Council in the time of Pope Nicholas the first , which erred , saith he , because the Popes Legates followed not his instructions . The third he proves by the Council of Basil Sess. 2. which together with the Popes Legate did by common consent Decree , that the Council is above the Pope , which now ( saith Bell●rmine ) is judged erroneous .

4. Some Popes themselves have confessed that they are not the seat or chief subject of the infallibility : As Adrian the sixth who hath wrote his judgement of it , that the Pope may err out of Council . And in my opinion we shall do the Pope much wrong if we shall not believe him when he speaks the truth , and tells us that he is fallible . Did Bellarmine better know Pope Adrians understanding , then the Pope knew his own ? Surely I must do as I would be done by : and if any man should perswade me that I know that which I do not know , or that I am infallible , when I know my self subject to error . I should confidently expect that all men would rather believe me of my self then believe another of me that speaks the contrary : And so will I believe Pope Adrian that he was fallible .

But of this more in the next disputation ; where you shall have fuller proof .

Arg. 2. If Popery do build even the Christian Religion it self ( as held by them ) on a foundation that is utterly uncertain , or else certainly false , then is it no safe way to salvation : For it would extirpate Christianity it self . But the Antecedent is true , as I shall thus prove .

1. They are divided and disagreed among themselves even their greatest Learned Doctors about the very foundation of their faith , as I shall further shew in the next argument : They believe upon the infallible judgement of the Church , and they are not agreed what that Church is .

2. They build the assurance of their faith upon such a ground as none of the common people , no nor any Doctors in the world , can have the knowledge of : therefore their faith must needs be uncertain . To manifest this I shall review one leaf that I wrote heretofore on this subject in the Preface to the second Part of the Saints Rest .

It is the Authority of the Church they say , upon which we must believe that the Scriptures are the word of God , and were it not for the Churches authoritative affirmation , they would not believe it ( saith one of them , no more than Aesops Fables ) Now suppose they were agreed what this Church is , and that we now take notice of their more common opinion , that it is , all the Bishops of the Church headed by the Pope , or a General Council approved of and confirmed by the Pope , I would fain know how the faith of any of us that live at a distance , yea or of any man living , can be sure and sound , when all these following particulars must be first known , before we can have such assurance . 1. It must be known that God hath given to the Church this power of judging what is his word , and what is a point of faith , and what not : so that that is so to us , which they judge so ; or that we are bound by God to believe them . Now which way doth God give the Church this Power ? Is it not by Scripture , or unwritten tradition in their own judgment ? And by what means doth he oblige us to Believe the Church in such determinations ? It must be also by Scripture or unwritten Tradition by their own confession : For if they fly to universal Tradition , and natural obligation , they give up their cause , and let go their Authoritative Tradition and Obligation , as from their Roman● Church . So that a man must ( according to their doctrine ) believe that the word of God ( written or unwritten ) hath given Power to the Church to determine what is the word of God before he can believe the word of God , or know it to be the word of God : that is , He must know and believe the word of God before he can know and believe it . Here is one of the impossib●lities that lye at the very foundation of the Romane way of faith .

2. Before men can know the Scripture to be Gods word , yea or their supposed unwritten verities , infallibly , according to the Romane way of believing , they must first know that the Church is infallible in her judgement , and this also must be known by the word of God , which is supposed not to be known yet it self .

3. They must also know , that it is the Church of Rome in particular that is the true Church and hath this power given from God .

4. To this end they must know that all those perverted Texts ( or some of them ) that speak of Peters own person , were also spoke of certain successors of his , as well as of himself ( as that on them the Church shall be built , and their faith shall not ●ail , &c. )

5. They must know that the Pope is this successor of Peter .

6. To this end , they must not onely know that Peter was at Rome ( of which read well Vlricus Velenus in Goldastus ) and was Bishop there , but they must know that he was the only Bishop there , or at least the chief , and that Paul was no Bishop there ( who is more likely to have been ) or else that he was the inferior , and that the Pope is Peters successor and not Pauls ; or else succeedeth them both , and hath his infallibility but from one , unless the successors of the rest of the Apostles are infallible too .

7. If Peter and Paul were Bishops at once of one Church in Rome , then it must be known why they may not have two successors at once ; and if there be two , which of them is to be believed when they disagree . But if Peter and Paul were Bishops of two particular Churches in Rome , the one of the Circumcision , the other of the uncircumsion , then it must be known by what right their successors made them one ? or whether it were not by a failing or cessation of the Church of the Circumcision , when all Jews were banished from Rome , and so the Church of the uncircumcision only continuing , the Pope be not only Pauls successor .

8. And it must be known whether Peter were not Bishop of other Churches as well as of Rome ( yea of Antioch before Rome ) and so whether the Bishop of Antioch be not his successor as well as the Pope of Rome , yea and the chief successor if it follow the right of primogeniture , either as to the Church o● the Bishop ; seeing Antioch was a Church before Rome , and Peter was supposed to be Bishop there before he was of Rome . And then if the Bishop of Rome and Antioch differ ( as they do ) how , shall we know whom to believe , and how shall we know that the Bishop of Antioch is not infallible as well as the Pope of Rome ?

9. It must be known what it is that makes a Pope , what is necessary to his being Peters successor . I● it enough that he step up into the chair and call himself Pope ? Or that his party call him so ? Then if any Heathen or Arrian conqueror , though a Lay ma● did so , he should be Pope . And he that conquers Rome may make himself Saint Peters infallible successor at any time . But if there must be an ordination and Election , then it must be known whether every Ecclesiastical Ordination or Consecration , and Election will serve or not . If it will , then when there have been three Popes chosen and consecrated at once , they were all Saint Peters infallible successors , though one condemned the other : If not , then it must be known , who it is that hath the power of election ( which being the act that determineth of th● person , is the maine that must resolve our doubts ) and also of consecration or ordination . And ho● shall the people know this , when the Clergy have been so disagreed among themselves .

10. And here it must be known whether the Cardinals have the sole power to elect ? If they have , then how came they by it ? And then , whether wer● all those that were elected by the people in the first ages , and by the Emperors in after ages , true Pope● , or not : If they were not , then Saint Peter hath no successors , because of the interruption of the succession so long ; and the Church had then no visible head . If they were , then the sufficient power is not onely in the Cardinals . And if it be not onely in them , then whether are any of those true Popes that have been chosen onely by them of late ages ?

11. And so it must be known how a possibility of uninterrupted succession can be proved , when Popes have been chosen three several wayes , sometime by the people ( or else there had not been so many slain at the election of Damasus , nor had the ancient Canons made this necessary to all Bishops ) and sometime by the Presbyters of that Church , and sometime by the Emperors ; and now by titular Presbyters , who are Bishops of other Churches , and are uncapable of being true Presbyters of the Church of Rome . If all these several wayes of Election may make true Popes , then it seems any way may serve , and then the three Popes at once will be all true : If not , then there hath been an interruption of the succession , and so according to their own Principles , there can be now no true Pope .

12. And here it must needs be known too , whether there be any thing in the person that is a qualification so materially necessary , that he can be no true Pope without it . If not , then a Pagan or a Mahometan may be Pope . If there be , then it must be known what that is , which few private men at least do know .

13. Particularly it must be known whether they that are known Hereticks , yea judged so by Councils , or by their own successors , and those that were notorious Whoremongers , Sodomites , Murderers , Poisoning their Predecessors to get the Popedome , Simonists , buying the Popedom with money , &c. were capable of being true Popes ?

14. If they are not capable , then we must all know that all the Popes were none such , when the Papists themselves confess they were such , before we can know that they were the infallible successors of Saint Peter .

15. But if such may be Popes , then must we know why a Mahometane may not as well be a Pope ? or how an enemy of Christ and the Church should come to be a Son of Promise , and the Vicar of Christ , and the head of the Church , and whether such were infallible in their judging falshood to be truth , as they did ?

16. And we must know , that the Pope onely is lawless , and under no power of Canons , or Decrees of former Popes and Councils ? Or else many such Canons will proclaim their calling null: and so the succession still hath been interrupted . And if the Authority of the former Church oblige the Pope to believe , e. g. the truth of Scripture and Traditions , then why must not the Authority of the former Church in its Canons be as obligatory to him in point of duty and penalty , and so null his calling ?

17. Bellarmine saith that it is agreed among all Catholiks that the Pope as a private Doctor may erre , through ignorance , even in universal questions of faith : Also that many Papists and Pope Adrian the sixth himself taught that the Pope as Pope may be a Heretick , and reach Heresie , so it be without a General Council : And that most of the rest do only hold , that whether the Pope be a He●tick or not , yet he cannot define any thing here●al , as to be believed by the whole Church : this ●th he , is the most common opinion : Bellarm. de ●m . Pontif. li. 4 cap. 2.

Now this being so we must be resolved , if a Pope ● a Heretick in heart , and open profession , and 〈◊〉 if a General Council be called , this Pope cannot ●e his sentence in it according to his own belief , ●hether indeed we can prove that God hath promis●● to cause a Hereticke Pope to dissemble , and to ●eak against his own judgement , which is to lye , ●ough the thing that he saith be true , or yet to tye 〈◊〉 tongue that he shall not be able to speak that ●hich he believes , and speaks at other times ?

18. And whether the promise which they alledge this purpose ( I have prayed for thee that thy faith 〈◊〉 not ) be indeed fulfilled to a Heretical Pope . If ●t , then its evident that this promise belongs not ● all Popes . If yea , then the faith of a Heretick ●th not fail ; which Bellarmine himself confesseth be false . And here note what a naked shameful ●ft it is that Bellarmine makes about this text ? He ●th that [ There are two things promised there to Pe●● : The first is that Peter should never lose the true ●ith , though tempted by the Devil ; The other privi●●ge is , that he as Pope should not be able ever to teach ●ly thing contrary to the faith ; or that in his seat no ●n should ever be found that should teach against the ●th : of which priviledges , the first perhaps was not ●rived to his successors , but the second undoubtedly ●as derived to them ] So saith Bellarmine de Rom ▪ ●nt . li. 4. cap. 3.

Now mark how contrary this is to the sence of the text . The promise that Christ made to Peter , wa● not to his tongue but to his heart : not that he should not speak against the faith , for he did deny Christ , and curse and swear that he knew not the man : b● it was that his inward belief should not fail , and ●● that he should not fall from Christ , and consequently indeed that his heart should reduce the tong●● it self . Now Bellarmine confesseth that perhaps th● part of the promise that concerneth faith it sel● ▪ reacheth not to Peters successors , but onely th● which concerneth the tongue : which was directl● none at all ; so that he gives up the true prom● made to Peter , which was that his faith should n● fail , and not that his tongue should not fail , and b● forgeth another in its stead .

19. How can we be assured that this or any promise belongeth to the Popes , when the Papists the●selves say that they were made to Peter before h● was Pope . For so Bellarmine is fain to answer , wh● we say Peter himself erred in denying Christ he saith [ Saint Peter when he denyed Christ , was ● yet made Pope : For its manifest that the Ecclesias●●cal supremacy was given him in the last of John , wh● Christ after the resurrection bid him Feed my sheep Bell. de Pontif. li 4. cap. 8.

20. It is of necessity that all Christians who belie● upon the Popes authority , must know who it is th● is the true Pope , and to be believed : And wh● there are many Popes at once pretending to that i●fallibility and authority , how can all Christians resolved which is the true Pope when one Count●● owns one , and another owns another , whom s● the vulgar own that are out of reach and uncapab●● of understanding the quarrel ? And then , w●● knows which of them must be succeeded by the next ? Nay can learned men tell ? Nay can the Cardinals ●ell that choose them ? And are we sure that any of ●he pretenders are true Popes ? Shall we hear B●llar●ine in one particular case , that is in his answer to ●he 37. instance of Heretical Popes , to wit , John●3 ●3 . who besides open Adulteries , Murders and o●her horrid wickedness , of which no less then fifty ●hree Articles were put in against him at the Council ●f Constance , all confirmed , saith Bellarmine , by ●ertain witnesses , he was moreover accused of most ●ernicious Heresie , even of denying the Resurrecti●n of the body , and everlasting life . And to this Bellarmine answereth [ Joannem 23. non fuisse Ponti●cem omnino certum & indubitatum , proinde non nec●essario esse defendendum , erant enim eo tempore tres , ●ni Pontifices haberi volebant , Gregor. 12. Benedict . ●3 . & Johan. 23. nec poterat facile judicari quis e●rum verus ac legitimus esset Pontifex cum non deessent ●ngulis doctissimi patroni . ] that is [ that●ohn ●ohn the 23. was not altogether the certain and un●oubted Pope , and therefore he is not necessarily to be ●efended , for there were at that time three that would ●e accounted Popes , Gregor. 12. Benedict . 13. and●ohn ●ohn 23. and it was no easie matter to judge which of ●hem was the true and lawful Pope , when there were ●ot wanting to each one of them most Learned Patrons . ] And yet the same Bellarmine saith , de Concil. li. 1. ●ap. 8. that its almost the common opinion that this ●ohn , Alex 5. were true Popes .

You see then the case of the poor people accord●ng to the Romish Religion : They cannot know the ●ord of God to be his word but on the authorita●ive determination of the Pope : and who is the true Pope it is impossible for them to know , when even most Learned men cannot know , and Bellarmine himself so long after saith , it could not easily be known .

21. Moreover , how can all Christians many hundred miles distant know whether indeed the Cardinals chose and consecrated him that is in the seat , or whether he forc't in himself , or bribed them to pretend what was not done , and so whether he have all the essentials of his call .

22. And if a Council must be the determiner either with the Popes , or alone , How shall the Christian world know that Christ hath promised infallibility to a Council , when there is no such promise in the word : much less can Infidels know this in order to their believing the word of God .

23. And how shall we all know what is a General Council , and when we have one ? whether it must be all the Christian Bishops in the world that must meet ? or the delegates at least of all ? or whether some Countries , or part of all may serve ? and then what Countries or parts it must be ? Bellarm. de Conc. l. 1. c. 17. Saith , that once the Patriarchs must be present , but now it s not necessary because they are all Hereticks or Schismaticks . And how shall we know that ever there was such a thing as a General Council ? For my part I see no probability that ever there were many , if any one such Council , was the Council of Trent General when the greatest part of the Christian world was absent ? When all the Bishops of Aethiopia , Egypt , Palestins , Greece , with all the Turkes dominions were absent , besides the Protestants , and most of the Popish Bishops themselves .

24. How shall we be sure that all these , or the greater part of them are true Bishops and lawfully called ? If as Bellarmine saith de Concil. l. 2. c. 9. That the contrary be not manifest , be enough , then mans error can make Gods promise of Infallibility belong to those that it was never made to ; or else God hath promised infallibility to all that may be Popes or Bishops for ought we know : and then it belongs not to the Pope and Bishops , but to all that seem such .

25. Yea that all those Bishops or most descend by uninterrupted succession from the Apostles , which is made necessary , If they plead onely the Bishop of Romes succession to warrant all the rest , before the forementioned particulars be well answered , it will appear that Romes succession hath been frequently interrupted .

26. How shall men at a distance be sure that the Councils are indeed confirmed by the Pope ?

27. How shall we be sure when all is done that we have the right sence of the Canons or Decrees of such Councils , when they speak as ambiguously as the Scripture , and the Papists think they can have no certainty of the right sence of that without a living judge : And if there be a living judge still of the sence of Councils , either he is as infallible as they , or not : If not , then he cannot make us infallibly certain by his Authoritative determination . If he be , then what need of a Council , when he is infallible alone ?

28. When several Popes and Councils contradict one another , how shall we know which of them to believe ? And this is no rare matter among them ?

29. When the Pope and Council contradict each other , how shall the people know which is infallible ?

30. When both Pope and Council contradict the express Scripture , must we take them for infallible , and believe that Scripture only on their words .

These or most of these must be known by all Christians , before they can believe the Articles of their Creed , or that Scripture is Gods word , according to the Romish grounds : When as it is impossible for any man to know them as true ; they being either false or not evident and demonstrable . So that it s now apparent that according to the Popish grounds , the People can have no certainty of the truth of their Religion , and that they shake the foundation of Christianity it self .

2. And lastly , not onely so , but they build on a foundation certainly false , that is , the Popes infallibility or a Councils : as I shall prove in the next dispute where their fallibility will be further manifested .

Arg. 3. If the Papists are not agreed among themselves either Clergy or Laity about the very fundamentals of their faith ( or matters which they make of necessity to salvation ) then Popery is no safe way to salvation : But the Antecedent is true : Therefore , &c.

We need to go no further for the proof of the Antecedent then to what is said already . They commonly maintain that we must receive our faith and the Scriptures upon the Authority of the infallible Church : and they are not yet agreed among themselves , nor ever like to be what that infallible Church is . And the difference is not with a few inconsiderable dissenters , but in their main body . The Papists of France maintain that it is a General Council that is infallible , and that the Pope is fallible : The Italians maintain that a General Council is fallible , and the Pope is infallible . Some others think that both of them are fallible separated , but both infallible when they concur . And some think that they are both infallible though separated . If the Church be the foundation , and all must be received upon its infallible authority , then no man can be saved that knows not which this infallible Church is : either therefore the French or Italians , one part or the other of them do erre in their very fundamentals , when one saith , This is the subject of infallibility , and the other say , This is it . And if a Pope or General Councel differ , to whom must the people hearken ? One part of them saith that the Pope is above the Council ; and others of them say the Council is above the Pope , and of this mind have been General Councils themselves , as the Council of Basil and Constance , and of this mind Bellarmine names , Cardinal Cameracensis , Cardinal Cusanus , Joh. Gerson Iac. Almain , Card. Florentin . Panormitan , &c.

What a strange impudency then is it of these men , to make the silly deluded people among us believe , that they are all of one mind , and it s we that are divided : when as they are never likely to agree in their very principles and great fundamental , Who it is that is the infallible Judge ? And till men know Who it is , what the better are they know , that such a judge there is seeing that the species existeth only in the individual , and no man can believe him , or apply himself to him as the infallible judge , till he know that it is he indeed that is such .

Seeing then according to their own principles , either the French Papists or the Italian and Spanish Papists must be in the way to damnation , how shall we know which it is and which to joyn our selves to with any safety ? Were it not for weakening the Popes interest , they would burn the French Papists as Hereticks as well as us .

Arg. 4. If Popery be a new devised way to heaven such as the Apostles never knew nor the Church after them for many a hundred year ( in the main parts of Popery ) then is it no safe way to salvation : But the Antecedent is true : therefore so is the consequent .

The consequence they will not deny , that which the Apostles & the Primitive Churches went in is only the safe way to heaven ( for there are not many safe ways ) But that which the Papists as Papists go in , is not that which the Apostles and Primitive Church went in : therefore it is not the safe way . And that the Apostles and first Churches knew not Popery , but it is a new Religion , or new corruption of Religion , appeareth by comparing the particular points with Scripture and Antiquity : For Scripture which is the truest Antiquity , it may give any indifferent man just cause of suspicion that the Papists do so obstinately refuse to be tryed by it ; which plainly shewes that they take it not to be on their side . And for the Councils and Fathers , for the first three hundred years or much more , they ordinarily scorn us for mentioning them to this end , because they say they wrote not of the points now in controversie , and therefore are unfit to determine them . But did not those ages take up their faith on the same grounds as we should do now ? And can they be all silent about the onely ground of faith ? If the Pope of Romes infallible authority had been the ground , would they not have told us so ? How could they convert the infidels , and confirm believers without acquainting them with the grounds of their Faith ? And what they took for the grounds their writings shew . Nay he that shall faithfully and impartially peruse the Writers of the first three-or four or seven hundred years , is blind if he see not the novelty of Popery , and in particular of the Popes infallibility , universal headship and Episcopacy , and his pretended authoriry to be the Judge of controversies , with the rest of his usurpations . Our Divines , Chamier , Jewel , Vsher , Field , and many others have manifested this so largely , that it would be superfluous for me to do it after them , and somewhat will necessary fall in with the next dispute .

I do not deny but that many ceremonies , and many controverted doctrines were very ancient : as the use of Chrisme , and a white garment , and milke and honey to the newly baptized , exorcisme , confirmation by imposition of hands , the Memories of the Martyrs , with prayers and praises at their graves , or places of suffering ; the oft use of the signe of the Cross , the observation of Lent ( as well as Easter and Whitsontide ) not to kneel on the Lords day , not to eat things strangled or bloody , so the doctrines of the power of Free-will , and predestination upon foreseen faith , and the misuse of the terms [ Merit and Justification ] the denyal of the perseverance of all Saints , &c. were too early and commonly entertained . But these be not the things that we call Popery , nor wherein the great difference between us , and the Romanists doth consist . But as for the great points in difference between the Papists and us , it is so evident in all antiquity , that Popery is a novelty , and that they have devised a new way to heaven which the Apostles and the Churches for many hundred years did never know , that onely gross ignorance of the Churches records , or a willingness to be deceived , can keep men from the knowledge of it .

And here I might easily prove what is said of the novelty of Popery , even from the confessions of their own most learned writers , that so they may not say , it is concluded from our own misunderstanding of Antiquity ; But that it would swell this disputation beyond the intended bulk and bounds . I shall onely give a brief touch in a few points of moment , which may shew you what to think of their charging us with novelty , and of their general pretences to Antiquity .

Of the humane Ordination of Papacy , and its late increase beyond its ancient bounds , and the limitation of Ecclesiastical Power ; I shall desire you to see what in the following Disputation is cited out of their Cardinal Nicol. Cusanus , a man so violent for the Eugenian faction , that Aenaenas Sylvius , afterward Pope Pius the second lamenteth that so learned a man should be the pillar of that Popes cause ; and a man so close to Papal interest , and so addicted himself to domineering , that he opposed his Prince Sigismund Duke of Austria , and caused the same Pope Pius the second to take his part , and excommunicate Sigismund and all his Counsailors , and his subjects , for taking this Cardinal prisoner by force of Armes ; of which see the story in Goldastus , with Gregor. Hemburg's ( one of the Princes excommunicated Counsailors ) his Defence against the Pope and Cardinal : Yet this man himself in his books de concordia hath confessed enough to destroy the Popes cause , and take down the Romane tyranny , if they would stand to the principles of that confession .

Others also in the next disputation are mentioned as to that subject , which I shall therefore now pretermit .

Polidore Virgil a Learned writer of theirs in his lib. 8. de Invent. R●● . cap. 5. pag. 475.476 . Saith [ Item ut nullum conventum indici , nullumque a quibusvis actum haberi ratum liceret sine Romani Pontificis authoritate , Marcellus primus omnium sanxit , deinde Julius & Damasus & Gregorius illud idem statuere ] [ i. e. [ Also that no Assembly ( or Council ) should be called , nor any act of whomsoever be esteemed ratified without the Authority of the Pope of Rome , this Marcellus was the first that did ordain , and afterward Julius and Damasus and Gregory did ordain the same thing ] And though this sufficiently proveth the novelty , yet Polidore is mistaken in taking this part of Papal Usurpation to be so ancient . For he took it on the authority of the decretals , which are meer fictions . Of which I refer the Reader to Blondellus de Decretal . Blondell . de Decret. pag. 397.403 . The sum of whose censure on Marcellus Epistles is this [ As the frequent Barbarisme shew the Author , so the following oft the version of Hiereme , the excribing of divers instances out of Innocent , Leo , Hilary , Gregory , Adrian 1. and Acacius , shew that he was many ages later then Marcellus ] See also the full evidence that he giveth in his censures against the Epistle of S. Julius and Damasus ; and for Gregory , his Epistles to the contrary purpose are well known . So that by Polidorus confession this Papal usurpation is a novelty : but indeed many hundred years neerer then he imagined .

And what good this usurpation did , himself confesseth in the following words [ Though it first broke the conventicles of Hereticks — Ita deinceps nihil attulit commodi ▪ cum per id jam pene desitum sit a concilis habendis , in quibus cuncta ex aequo traictarentur Pontifice , Romano ejusmodi negotium non magnopere curante ] i. e. [ Afterwards it did no good , when by reason of this , Councils are almost ceased , in which all things should be equally handled , the Pope of Rome not much rega●ding any such matter ] Where he addeth [ That therefore Pope Martin the fifth in the Council of Constance decreed that a Council should be called every tenth year , which hitherto hath not been kept , and therefore Religion grows daily worse ] Where by the way we may see what power the Laws of the Pope and General Councils have , and what a Religion Popery is , which sweareth men to believe and obey the Decrees of such Councils , which no man ever obeyed since they were made : For there hath been never since a Decennial Council : And the Pope himself by confirming that Council which decreed that a Council is above the Pope , did shew himself obliged to obey it , and so to have called a Council accordingly . But all others must swear to that as Gods Word and infallible , which themselves contemne . But to proceed .

The same Polidore Virgil. lib. 8. cap. 1. g. 456. shews that the beginning of Indulgences was not till Gregory appointed his stations , and made them a reward . And shewing that thy were grounded on the Doctrine of Purgatory , he bringeth in Bishop Fisher of Rochester to witness , 1. That Indulgences are lately brought in . 2. Roffeus . Cont. Lutherum . And that even of Purgatory Apud priscos nulla vel quam rarissima fiebat mentio ; sed & Grecis ad hunc usque diem non est creditum esse : quan diu enim nulla fuerat de purgatorio cura , nemo quesivit indulgentias , nam ex illo pe●det omnis indulgentiarum existimatio . Si tollas purgatorium , quorsum indulgentiarum opus erit ? Caeperunt igitur Indulgentiae , post quam ad purgatorii cruciatus aliquandiu trepidatum est ] i. e. [ With the ancients there was no mention of Purgatory , or exceeding rare : And the Greeks believe not that it is to this day : And as long as there was no care about Purgatory , no man sought for indulgences ; for all the estimation of indulgences dependeth upon that . See Mr. Sing's Rejoynder in Defens . of Bishop Usher p. 78.79 , 80 , 81 , &c. If you take away Purgatory , what use is there of indulgences : indulgences therefore did then begin , when men had trembled a while at the pains of Purgatory ] So far Bishop Fisher their Martyre .

Polidore Virgil reciting these words , next to them addeth [ Quae tu forte cum tanti sint Momenti , ut magis certa ex ore Dei expectabas ] [ Perhaps you expected to have had these things as more certain from the mouth of God , seeing they are of such moment ] A sufficient hint that he had more in his mind if he durst have spoken out .

Yet note that the profit of indulgences is expressly sworn to in the new Trent Creed as part of their Belief .

This passage of Fishers was alledged by Bishop Vsher in his Answer to the Jesuites challenge , and the like from Cajetans confessing that the beginning of indulgences is not known : What the adversaries can say against these citations , you may see confuted by Mr. Sing in his Rejoynder in Defence of Bishop Vsher against the Jesuite , pag. 81.82 , 83.

That the use of the Sacrament in one kind is a new invention , is commonly confessed by them . See Albaspinaeus a sober Bishop of theirs in his observations , after his notes on Optatus , cap. 4. de Communione Laica , pag. 10.11 . shewing the novelty of the now Romish Communion . And Gregor. de Valentia the Jesuite confesseth that minime constat , it is not known when the custome of receiving the Sacrament in one kind onely began , but that it was not by any Decree of a Bishop , but crept in by some custome of the people . Of which also see Bishop Vsher ibid. and his Defender Mr. Sing p 78.82 , 83.

About the beginning of Monkery , see Polidore Virgils confess . lib. 7. cap 1. pag. 414.415.416 . And that [ Monachi primo omnium introduxerunt in Ecclesiant Dei vota sacra , & vestimenta profana simul religi●sa secerunt ] [ Monkes were the first of all men that brought into the Church of God , sacred vows , and made common ( or profan● ) garments become Religious . ] pag. 424.

Of the beginning of forbidding Priests to marry , see the same Polid. Virgil. li. 5. cap. 4. pag. 293 , &c.

Of Peters supremacy the sam● Polidore saith l. 4. c. 6. p. 240. [ Veruntamen existunt etiam nunc , &c. There are some now that contend that Peter had power over all the Apostles : of which it belongeth not to us to determine , who are onely enquiring of the original of Priesthood : but some think the contrary , because Paul seemeth to deny it , &c. ] Where he addeth more reasons .

Of the Original of Cardinals , and the changes of the Electors of Popes , see him also l. 4. c. 9. where also he saith pag. 252. [ Verum cum postea Bonifacius 3. ab Imperatore Phoea impetrasset ut in omnes Episcopos praerogativam haberet , omniumque caput perpetuo foret , jam tum Romanus Pontifex multo quam antea unam cum suo urbano sacerdotum senatu cunctis sine controversia prestare authoritate caepit , ac simul illi presbyteri quibus Tituli dati , quibus Christianorum animas cutandi munus delatum fuerat , to Cardinalium nomine velut supremae illius dignitatis proprio cum primis honestari caepit . ] Here you have a hint of the Original of the very new frame of the Romish Church .

Many more points of the Romish way doth he in that Book discover to be novel . And in opposition to all their way if you will see how he describeth the Reformed Religion , peruse his narrative of the occasion of the Reformation , pag. 410. cap. 4. li. 8. where he saith [ Ita licentia parta loquendi : secta brevi tempore mirabiliter crevit quae Evangelica dicta est eo quod , haud ullam asseveret recipiendam esse legem quae ad animarum salutem pertineat nisi quam Christus aut Apostoli dedissent ] i. e. [ Having once leave to speak , that sect did marvailously increase ; which is called Evangelical , because they affirm that no Law is to be received which belongeth to salvation but what is given by Christ or the Apostles ] Thus you see what the Protestant Religion is and whence called Evangelical , and wherein it principally differeth from Popery , from the mouth of a Papist himself ( an Agent of the Popes with the King of England H. 7. An Archdeacon , and at last the Dean of Pauls in London , from whence he removed because of the entrance of the English changes under H. 8 )

And though he say that it then begun , meaning Luthers particular Reformation , yet what is like to be the end of it in the next words he subjoynes his Prognostick [ Mansurum ut videtur quoad Christus ipse populum suum culpâ rectorum ita in duas sectas sejunctum , rursus coegerit , a quo istud optimus quisque maxime petere precarique debet , ut ne major indidem fiat Religionis labes ] [ Its like to remain till Christ himself shall again bring together his people , who by their Rectors fault are thus divided into two * * Note that he calls the Papists a Sect as well as the Reformed . Sects ; from whom every good man ought especially to beg and pray for it , lest Religion as daily decay ] more and more .

The novelty of their doctrine de efficacia Sacramenti ex opere operato is not onely by subtile Scotus but many more of their own confessed to be new . More of their corruptions are by their own Writers confessed to be novelties ; and therefore it is great immodesty in the Papists to pretend the Antiquity of Popery , though we easily grant them the Antiquity of their Christianity . In so much as they agree with us they may prove their Religion to be ancient : but its new in ●he points wherein we differ , and most new in the greatest differences . Bishop Vsher in his Answer to ●he Jesuites challenge , and in his book de Statu & ●uccessione Ecclesiarum , hath proved the novelty of ●he main body of their corruptions , especially the points of whose antiquity themselves most boasted of , and this distinctly and fully to their perpetual ●onfusion , beyond all reply .

If therefore the Romanists would have us return ●o their communion ( not to their subjection ; for that we never owed them ) let them but cast off their novelties and return to the ancient faith and practice of the Romane Church , and we shall do it speedily ●nd do it gladly : They shall see that we are so far from affecting an unnecessary separation , that we ●ill embrace them in a lawful communion with all our hearts . I cannot better express my hearty de●ires of this , then in those hearty words of Hier. Zanchy Vol. 3. Thes. de Eccles. Milit. Thes. 19. Col. ●40 . [ Non enim ab Ecclesia Romanâ simpliciter & ● omnibus defecimus : sed in illis duntaxat rebus in ●nibus ipsa defecit ab Apostolica , atque adeo a seip● , veteri & pura Ecclesia : neque alio discessimus zimo , quam ut si correcta , ad priorem Ecclesiae for●am redeat , nos quoque ad illam revertamur , & ●mmunionem cum illa in suis porro caetibus habeamus : Quod ut tandem fiat , toto animo Domino Jesum pre●mur , Quid enim pio cuique optatius , quam ut ubi ●r baptismum renati sumus , ibi etiam in finem us●u vivamus ? modo in Domino ? Ego Hier. Zanchius . Cum tota mea familia testatum hoc volo toti Ecclesiae Christi in omnem eternitatem .

Arg. 5. If Popery do make a new Catholike Church , which was never known for many hundred years after Christ , then is it no safe way to salvation . But Popery doth make a new Catholike Church that was never known of many hund●ed years after Christ : therefore it s no safe way to salvation .

The consequence of the Major will not be denyed ; for they confess that Christs Church is but one ; He had not a Church of one sort for the first ages , and a Church of another sort since : though its accidents may vary , yet so doth not its essence . The Minor I prove thus , That which the Papists make to be the Catholike Church , is only all those Christians that acknowledge the Pope to be the universal Bishop and head of the Catholike Church , having universal supreme jurisdiction , and the Church of Rome to be the Mother and Mistris of all other Churches , and its only a Catholike Church convertible with the Romane Church . But such a Catholike Church as this was never known by the Apostles , or of many hundred years after Christ : Therefore Popery maketh a new Catholike Church , which the first ages never knew .

It s true that when Rome being then the ruling City of the world did come to own Christianity , that the Glory of the Empire occasioned the Bishop to be called Primae sedis Episcopus , as one that was to take place of the rest of the Patriarchs , who had their several orders or places ●ssigned them ( as Alexandria to be the second , Antioch the third , &c. ) which Bellarmi●● confesseth might be after lawfully changed : but as Alexandria had not the Government of Antioch by that predecency , so neither had Rome any government , of the rest : And as Constantinople was afterward set up above Alexandria and Antioch ( and claimed to be above Rome ) so might it as lawfully have been set up above Rome But what ever be said about their quarrels of precedency , which pride begun and cherished , yet it s most evident in all antiquity , that of many hundred years after Christ , there was no such Catholike Church in being , or known , as was centred in the Pope as the head or universal Bishop or Governor , or in Rome as the Mistris of the rest . We have long ago challenged them to give us the least proof of such a Church in all antiquity , and they give us nothing , but such forced passages that are nothing to their purpose , that its hard for the most charitable rational man to believe that they do indeed believe themselves , and do not know that they hypocritically endeavor to cheat poor souls by their vain cavils . All the Papists on earth will never be able to answer what our Divines have said already to prove the novelty of their Papal headship : nor can all the Popes servants in the world bring us one word of currant antiquity for many hundred years after Christ , to prove that ever such a Church was once dreamed of , as they now call the Romane Catholike Church . Indeed Rome was called then , a Catholike Church , and so was Alexandria , Antioch , and all that held the Catholike faith , and were not heretical : but it was never known till Boniface had usurped the Title of universal Bishop above 600. years after Christ ( which he procured by Phocas a Murderer that usurped the Empire when he had slain the Emperor Mauritius ) that the Romane Church and the Catholike Church was all one , or that it was necessary to make any particular Church or person Catholike , that they acknowledge the universal headship and jurisdiction of the Romane Pope , much less his infallibility .

To heap up Records here would but stop the plain Reader in his course ; and somewhat shall be s●id of it in the next dispute : Onely I now say , that if any one question whether indeed the Romane Catholike Church as now constituted be a meer novelty , I here offer my self to the fuller proof of it , and shall desire no better recreation of such a sort then to entertain a dispute about it with any Papists that will undertake their cause .

And here I must needs annex this observation ; What a shameless cheat it is by which the Papists do delude the ignorant , perswading them that theirs is the old Religion , and the ancient Church which hath continued from the Apostles without interruption ; and that we are men of a new Religion , and of a Church that had never a visible being till the dayes of Luther , Costerous the Jesuite in the Preface to his Enchiridion instructeth his deluded novices how to deal with the Protestants by urging them with three Questions ( which we shall resolve anon to his shame ) and the last of them is a challenge to us [ To name one man before Luther that agreed with us in all things ] But we challenge , and most confidently challenge all the Papists on earth to name one man for three hundred years after Christ ( I might say six hundred years ) that agreed with them ( not in all things but ) in their very Articles of Faith , yea in thei● Church fundamentals , yea in the very definition of the Catholike Church : We challenge them to name us one man and ( prove it ) that ever knew or owned such a Church as Catholike that is now so called and owned by them . We confidently affirm ( and challenge all the Papists in the world to dispute the point with us ) that their Church as Popish , is a new thing , unknown to our forefathers of the first ages ; that Popery is a fardel of new doctrines , unknown to the first Churches We admire at the immodesty of these men to aske us where our Church was before Luther , and to call it a new Religion which we profess , and to ask us whether we think our selves wiser then all the world was heretofore in the purest times ? We do most confidently return on them their own demands ? We would know from any of them where their Church was for three hundred ( yea for six hundred ) years after Christs birth ? And we wonder how they can think to be saved in a way that was not known for so long time ? Do they think themselves wiser then Christ and his Apostles , and all the Christian world for so many hundred years . Again we challenge them to shew us the least proof that ever there was such a thing for so long time , as a Catholike Church convertible with the Romane , and headed by the Pope as the universal Bishop having a universal jurisdiction over the rest , or an infallible Judgement in determining of controversies in matters of faith . It is none of the least of our Reasons why we dare not be of the Romish faction or opinions , called by them their Church and their Religion , because it is so new , and we dare not venture our souls upon new wayes , nor dare we believe that Christ hath two sorts of Churches essentially different since his Resurrection ; one sort before the Popes universal headship , and the other since : nor dare we once imagine that Christ had no true Church on earth till Pope Boniface would needs be the universal Bishop , or till Rome was advanced to the dignity and titles which it doth now usurpe . I desire no better issue then this of our difference : Let any Papists living bring out their cause to the tryal of antiquity , and let them that are of the most Ancient Church and Religion , carry the cause . If we prove not theirs new and ours the most ancient , or if they prove theirs more Ancient then ours ( as since Christs Resurrection ) then we are contented to be of their Church and way .

Arg. 6. If the Papists be the greatest Schismaticks upon earth , most desperately rending the Church and separating themselves from the maine body of the visible Church , then Popery is not a safe way to salvation . But the Papists are the greatest Schismaticks on earth , most desperately rending the Church , and separating themselves from the main body thereof : Therefore Popery is no safe way to salvation .

The consequences of the Major will be confessed by themselves . It is only the Minor , therefore that is to be proved : which is too easily done , being a matter of fact .

First , The Papists do actually rend themselves from the greatest part of Christs Church on earth , condemning all others to everlasting fire : 2. They do lay the grounds of a continual schisme , in making a new center of the unity of the Church : of these two in order .

1. He that shall consider of all the Christians in the world at this day , who subject not themselves to the Pope of Rome , and may truly be reputed to be of the Catholike Church , will see that the Papists are but a small part of the Church : But especially if we consider them as they were not many ages ago , much more numerous then now they be . The Grecians , the Syrians called Melchites , the Moscovites and Russians , the Georgians , all of the Greek Religion besides the multitude of the same Religion dispersed throughout the Turkes dominions ; also the Abassins , Egyptians , Armenians , Jacobites , who are neer of a mind , and differ from the Papists , and submit not to their authority : Besides all the Reformed Churches in Germany , Sweden , Denmark , Hungary , Transylvania , Brittain , Ireland , France , Belgia , Helvetia , and other parts with those in the Indies ; I say consider of all these Christians together and it will appear that the Papists are but a few to them , or not neer so many as they . But if you further consider of the state of the Christian world not many ages ago , when the Turkes had not yet subdued the Eastern parts , and when the Abassian Empire was much more large , and Nubia and other Countries had not revolted , it will appear that we may well say that it was but a small part of Christians comparatively that did acknowledge the universall headship and jurisdiction of the Pope , or submit themselves to him : besides many other points of Religion in which they differ from him . I know that the Papists say , that these are all either Hereticks or Schismaticks , and so no part of the Catholike Church . But the accusation of Schisme is the meer voice of Schisme , and for Heresie , its true that all men and Churches have their errors , which yet deserve not the name of Heresie : The Jacobites and the rest that are neer them , are afraid of acknowledging two Natures in Christ , lest it lead them to make two persons with the Nestorians ; but yet they are not plaine Eutichites : and both they and the Nestorians acknowledge Christ to be perfect God and perfect man ; only the Nestorians do amiss have these two natures , two persons ; and that the Euticheans in flying too far from them are afraid to call them two Natures , though they confess the Godhead and Manhood to be really distinct ; yet they say that both are as it were conjoyned or coupled into one Nature : so that wise impartial men think that the Eutichites ( or at least these Christians that are so called amiss by the Papists ) do but misuse the term Nature for the term Person , and so deny two Persons onely in sence , and two Natures only in name , and that by the same misuse of the terms the Nestorians do affirm two Natures onely in sence , and two Persons in words onely . Of this I desire the Reader to consider What Luther hath said de Conciliis This I must needs say , that if I did not exercise the same charity in judging of the Romanists , as I do in this excuse of the Jacobites , and other Christians that are not of their Communion , I should be forced to censure the former much deeper then the latter , and if by all their errors I must hold the rest to be Hereticks or Schismaticks , I must by the same measure judge the Romanists to be doubly Heretical , as I certainly know them to be most notoriously Schismatical . For though I know that they are not so barbarous and unlearned as most of these forementioned Christians , and also that they are free from many of their mistakes , yet withall they have many more in stead of them which the other are free from . And for the Protestants they are Hereticks only on this supposition , that the Pope be Judge .

By this time then it partly appeareth how great a part of the Church of Christ the Papists do differ from .

But yet this is not all , nay the smaller part . For if you will but consider the state of the Church of Christ for the first three hundred , yea five or six hundred years , you will find that the Papists do differ from them all , even from the whole Church . For then the Popes universal Episcopacy and jurisdiction was not known in the world ( as is said before . )

All these doth the Romane party now separate themseves from : All these they do pronounce to be no true Churches or true Christians , but Hereticks and Schismaticks : All these do they condemn to the pit of Hell . They have now concluded that onely those are of the true Church , that acknowledge the Mastership or universal Headship of the Pope , and the Mistrisship of the particular Romane Church which none of all those forementioned did . They now conclude that none can be saved but who are of this ( new-framed ) Church of theirs .

Now I do appeal to any reasonable impartial man alive , whether there be any more notorious Schismaticks on earth , then these men ; that dare unchurch the far greatest part of Christs Church on earth at present , & the far purest , and renounce communion with them all , and proclaim them Hereticks or Schismaticks , and sentence them all to the flames of Hell : Yea that dare do the like by all ages of Christians that have gone before them ; yea that dare unchurch and damne to Hell the whole Church of Christ for many hundred years ! For what do they less when they unchurch and damne all that acknowledge not their new made universal Bishop which the Primitive Church never did ? And when they make that to be essential to the Catholike Church which the first Catholike Church did never know ? I know there be some Enthusiasts and Anabaptists and such giddy persons , that do as the Papists do , condemn all the Churches of Christ except themselves . But yet the Schisme that they have made hereby is nothing to that which was made by the Papists , who have set the Christian world into a flame of dissention , and make it their very business daily to b●ow ●t up ; and do nourish so many Colledges of Jesuites and other orders to that end .

What notorious impudency is it then in these men to tell us that we are schismaticks , & separate from them and aske us , how we dare judge all our forefathers to damnation , and why we will not be of our forefathers Religion ? and do not observe how they condemne themselves by all these questions . What more evident then that the Papists have separated from all other Christians in the world ? How dare they condemne the far greatest part of Christians on earth to eternal torment ? yea and ( by plain consequence , though they will not acknowledge it ) the whole Church of Christ for many hundred years ? were it but one soul that they should presume to censure , they might well bethink them of an answer to Pauls Question . Who art thou that judgest another mans servant ? to his own master doth he stand or fall , When Paul wrote that to the Church at Rome , he knew of none then that would justifie the judging of all the world , and say , They are my servants , or subjects , and therefore I must judge them . Do the blind Papists think that any sober considerate impartial Christian can be of their mind , and damne the most of Christs Church on earth , meerly because they will not be subject to the Pope of Rome . If this Article be so necessary to salvation , Why do not we find it in any ancient Creed ? Why must we not say [ I believe in the Pope of Rome ] as well as [ I believe in God ? ] Or if indeed it be the Pope and Romanists that is meant by [ the holy Catholike Church ] why would not the composers of the Creed tell us so ? And why did none of the ancient Churches understand and expound it so ? And why did no age add the word [ Romane ] and call it [ the holy Romane Catholike Church . ]

2. And then withal , besides the present Schisme which they have made , they have laid the ground of a perpetual schisme . For they have made a new definition of the Catholicke Church , and made it another thing then it was before , and they have made a new head and center of its unity ; so that all the old sort of Christians to the end of the world , that cannot change their Church and unite to the new head and center , must needs be of a different body from the Romanists . And if these men say that it is the rest of the Christian world that first withdraws from them . 1. Let them prove that the Greek , Abassins & the rest of the Christian world that deny subjection to them , except these in the West , were ever under them . 2. And as for the Reformed Churches if they were drawn in heretofore ( I mean their forefathers ) to countenance the Romish usurpation & tyranny , they withdraw only from that usurpation , & separate from Rome only as it is a faction & not as from a Church . If we be drawn into a schism & separation from all the Christian world , by the fraud of Rome , is it unlawful for us to repent & return to the unity of the Catholike Church , and to renounce the Schism that we were guilty of ? This is our great sin ? we are schismaticks because we will not continue schismaticks ? we are Schismaticks by casting off the Schism of Rome , because we will not be Schismaticks by continuing to separate from all the Churches else on earth .

3. But let us come to the tryal with them who laid the first Schismatical Principle ? Was it not they that first defined the Catholike Church as equipollent with the Romane ? and first made the universal Headship of their Pope to be the center ? Did ever Peter or Paul or any Apostle do so ? Did they give us such a definition of the Catholike Church ? Or did the Church do so for many a hundred year after them ? Prove this well , and take all ; and we promise to turn Papists without delay . The plaine truth is this . The Catholike Church for many hundred years after Christ was that Body of Christians who were united or centred only in Christ the head , and held communion in the fundamentals or great and necessary points of faith and worship : and had no mortal head or Center : But the worldly greatness of the City of Rome , occasioneth the inflation and proud usurpation of her Bishop , and he will needs make himself the Center of union and universal head , when there was no Center or head , but Christ before : And is not this the vilest Schisme that men can tell how to be guilty of ? suppose that the King of Spaine having his Dominions remote one part from another , some in Europe ; and some in the Indies , that for five or six hundred years the Indies should acknowledge no other head but the King of Spaine , and the Governors of each Province should receive their several Commissions immediately from him , and stand in no regimental subordination to one another , but onely be bound by the King to have communion and hold correspondence for their mutual safety and the common good : If now after so long time the Vice King of Mexico , shall by Degrees make himself the sovereign of the rest , first claiming onely the first place in their Assemblies , because he is Governor of the greatest City ; and then requiring them to do nothing without him , or his consent , and at last proclaiming himself the head of the Indies under the King of Spaine , and that none are subjects to the King but those that profess themselves also subjects to him , but all the rest are rebels and traytors , and to be used accordingly ; exhorting and commanding all to fall upon them and use them as such : And all this upon pretence that Spain is so far off , that the King there is invisible and inaccessible to them in the Indies , and therefore the King hath given him a Commission to be his substitute , as being more visible and accessible . If now the rest of the Presidents , Governors , and Provinces , shall refuse to acknowledge the Headship of this man , and shall declare that they dare center to no head , but the King of Spaine without his express Commission manifested , and the Provinces of Mexico and the adjacent parts onely shall be otherwise minded and subject themselves to the usurper , who is it that causeth the Schisme in the King of Spains dominions ? And which partie is it that holdeth to the ancient terms of unity ? and which are the dividers ? I need not stand to make a particular application : It is even so , between us and the Pope with his Romanists . The Church of old was centred onely in Christ and headed onely by him : At last the Pope pretending Christs distance and invisibility , and a Commission that he hath from Christ to be his Vicar General ( written in letters that none can read but himself and his party ) will needs become the visible head and center : and whereas before those onely were the rebels that rejected Christ , now all must be rebels that are not subject to the Popes .

And to aggravate the crime by the addition of hipocrisie , all this Schisme and separation must be carryed on by a pretence of unity : They make the poor simple people believe that the Pope being the Head and center , there is no unity to be held but in him , and that we must all be guilty of Schisme that unite not in him , and that all our divisions are caused by our departing from this center of unity : when it is himself that hath divided from the rest of the Christian world , and would drown the infamy of it by accusing others of the same sin that he is so notoriously guilty of . By which we may well see , that accusing others is none of the surest signs of innocency , but too common a trick to divert the suspition from themselves . When the Papists that are the greatest Schismaticks on earth , do make such an outcry against us as Schismaticks , because we have repented of our joyning with them in their Schisme , and will not confederate with them in evil , against the Laws of Christ , and the necessary means of the unity of his Church .

Arg. 7. If the faith of Papists as Papists , which is it that we call Popery , be a meerly uncertain , changeable thing , so that a man can never tell when he hath it all then is it no safe way to Salvation . But the faith of Papist● ( as such ) is such a meerly uncertain changeable thing : Therefore it is no safe way to Salvation .

The consequence of the Major , I suppose they will grant . For how can that be a safe way , 1. which is uncertain , 2. and changeable ; when the true way to salvation is one and the same , and changeth not since Christ had established and sealed his Laws .

All the question therefore is of the Minor : which I prove , 1. From the Popish principles , 2. From their Practices , both which do plainly shew that their new Religion is a meer Weather-cock that must fit with the winde of the mutable conceits of the Pope and his Clergy . Even like the Religion of the Enthusiasts that wait still for new Revelations to be superadded to the Scripture .

And first for their principles , one is that [ The Scripture is not the whole word of God , or sufficient rule of faith or manners , but onely a part of the Word and Rule , and that unwritten Traditions are the other part : Yea Rushworths Dialogues , Bellarmine , and the rest of them ordinarily , tell us that Scripture was not chiefly given to be a Rule of faith at all : saith Bellarm. de verbo dei li. 4. cap. 12. [ Finis Scripturae pracipuus non est , ut sit Regula fidei , sed ut variis documentis , exemplis , adhortationibus , nunc terrendo , nunc instruendo , nunc minando , nunc consolando adjuvet nos in hae peregrinatione . ] that is [ The chief end of Scripture , is not to be a Rule of faith : but that by divers documents , examples , adhortations , sometime by affrighting , sometime by instructing , sometime by threatning , sometime by comforting , it may help us in this our peregrination . ] It is then unwritten Traditions that are part of Gods Word , and at least part of the Rule of faith : And where these Traditions are to be found , and what they are , and how many , and by what notes they may all be known , either they dare not tell us , for fear of bringing mens faith to a certainty , from under the lock and key of the Pope , or else in telling us they do but cloud the business with general terms , or else disagree among themselves . That the Scripture it self is delivered to us infallibly , we doubt not : and thereby we know the Canonical books : But this may be done without another word of God : The act of Delivery from the Apostles is not a new Revelation or Word of God , but the natural means of conveying the word to those for whom it was intended : And the object of that Act of Delivery was not another Word of God , but all and onely these same Canonical Books : so that I know which is the Canon ( among other reasons ) because I can prove ( not by another Word of God , but ) by infallible humane Testimony ( such as I have of the Laws of this Land ) that the Bible , and these particular books in it were actually delivered by the holy Writers to the Churches . If God write the two Tables of stone , and therein make known that they are his Laws , and then Deliver these to Moses , this Delivering is not a new Word of God , but a necessary act for the promulgation of the Word : So that if you aske an Israelite how he knows , whether onely the ten Commandments and all those ten were contained in the Tables ? He can prove it to you by the Tables Delivered , and by proving the Act of Delivery , though he could bring no other word of God which told you what was in those Tables . And indeed , if these must needs be another Word of God , besides the Delivering Acts to prove the former to be the Word of God , and tell us its parts , then there must also be another word to discover that second Word to be the Word of God , and another to discover that , and so in infinitum . Our acknowledged necessary Tradition , therefo●● is not another materia tradita , or Word of God , but onely one of the actus tradendi , and act of delivering the same matter or word .

But for the Papists that will have another part of the Rule of Divine faith , they will never be able to tell us what it is , and where , and to let us understand when we have all . Bellarmine de verbo dei non Scripto li. 4. cap. 9. layes down five Rules by which we may know the true Traditions . The first is [ When the whole Church embraceth any thing as a point of faith , which is not found in the Scriptures of God , we must needs say , that this was had from the tradition of the Apostles . ] The second is [ When the universal Church keepeth somewhat which none could constitute but God , and which is not found written , we must needs say , that this was delivered from Christ and the Apostles . ] The third is [ That which is kept in the universal Church , and through all times past , is deservedly judged to have been instituted by the Apostles , though it be such a thing as the Church might institute . ] The fourth is [ When all the Doctors of the Church do with one consent teach that such a thing descended by Apostolical Tradition , either Congregate in a General Councel , or writing it apart in books , this is to be believed to be an Apostolike Tradition . ] The fifth Rule is this [ That is without doubt to be believed to descend from Apostolical Tradition , which is held for such in those Churches where the succession from the Apostles is entire and continued . ] These are Bellarmines five Rules .

But 1. What the particular Apostolical Traditions are which are Gods Word according to these Rules , he had more wit , or less honesty then to let us understand . Is it because the word of God is indeed yet unknown ? or cannot be known ? or because it is not fit to make it known ? or because the Pope must pretend to the keeping of these hidden Laws , that so the world may receive them at his mouth ?

2. And I would fain know whether these Rules of Bellarmines to know the unwritten word by , are themselves the Word of God , or not ? If they be , are they written or unwritten , and how known to be so ? If not , then it seems we may have Rules and means which are not the word of God , by which we may infallibly know which is the true word of God ? And then there needs no unwritten word to deliver or prove the written word .

3. And why may not another Doctor by these Rules , know the unwritten word , as well as the Pope , and another Church as well as the Romane ?

4. And why may not the Christian people through the world procure from some one charitable Pope , through so many hundred years , a Catalogue of those unwritten verities , that the word of God may be once commonly known , and men may know when they have all , without uncertain dependencies on the Pope , or travailing in vain to Rome to know .

5. And for those few that Bellarmine hath instanced in , viz. The perpetual Virginity of the Virgin Mary , The Baptisme of Infants , the validity of Hereticks Baptism , the fast of Lent , the inferior orders of the Clergy , the veneration of Images . To the first , I say , It is no Article of Divine Faith , but of humane Ecclesiastical : The second is proved fully out of Scripture : And so is the third , if you take it of such Hereticks ( in a larger sence ) as expresly exclude nothing essential to baptism , but expresly include it all : But for the rest , Bellarmine should remember how elswhere he defendeth the Council that required the rebaptizing of those that were baptized by the Paulinists , because they were Anti-trinitarians . For Lent , I say , no more can be proved of it , but onely that it is an ancient Ecclesiastical constitution . And the inferior orders are apparently novelties , introduced after the first age , if not the second too , and not mentioned in any of the first writers , but the sum of Church Officers enumerated without them . Much more novel is the unlawful use of Images in Churches or as immediate instruments to excite devotion in prayer , and for other lawful use , we deny it not .

6. But principally I would intreat Bellarmine and the Pope that hereafter they would obtrude no unwritten word upon us , but what is proved to be such , at least by his own Rules . Let us have some proof that it proceedeth from the universal Church , and not their naked word without evidences . And then we must intreat them to be so honest , as not to unchurch the Greeks , Abassines , Armenians , Protestants , and all the Christians in the world except Romanists , that so they may be the whole Catholike Church , and then prove any thing to be the word of God by their own Testimony alone . Nor yet to perswade us that such a Council as theirs at Trent conteined the whole Catholike Church real or representative : nor yet to bring us two or three Fathers , and say that those were all the Doctors of the Church .

More particularly I answer to his Rules in order . To the first I say . 1. That prove if you can that ever the whole Church embraced any thing as a point of Divine faith which is not contained in the Written Word . 2. If the whole Church embrace it , then it is no secret , and therefore we all may know it , yea and actually do know it as well as the Pope .

To the second Rule I say , You may prove a mistaken observance of rites by the greater part of the Church , but prove that the whole Church kept any thing unwritten , which none could constitute but God : But if they did , still it must needs be known to all , and therefore not controvertible , or lockt up in the Popes closet . Prove also that the universal Church may not erre in some lesser matters about Christs supposed constitutions .

To the third I say , If by [ all times past ] you include the Apostles , then we grant your Rule : but meer Ecclesiastical Canons may be observed through all times shortly after the Apostles , and yet not as Apostolical , but Ecclesiastical : Yet when you come to try your Traditions by this Rule , I am not out of doubt that you will but disgrace them , and fail your Readers just expectations .

To the fourth I say , 1. I will believe you , if you speak of all the Doctors of the Church next to the Apostles , or so neer as that the danger of mistaking was not great . 2. But I do not believe that you will find any of your Traditions asserted to be Gods Word , by all the Doctors of the Church ( not neer all ) in any one age : unless you make your faction to be all .

The last Rule is but a meer trick of wit to get the key into the Popes hand alone : To which I say , 1. A Church that hath had an interrupted succession of true Pastors from the Apostles , may fall into many errors in process of time , which in Tertullians and Irenaeus dayes , when the memory of all the Apostles practices were so fresh , they could not fall into so easily . 2. Those Churches have received their unwritten verities , either by writings from their predecessors or without : If by writings , why cannot others find it there as well as they ? If without , it must be an uncertain , and mutable means ; or by a means so publike still that all as well as they may know of it . 3. And we undertake to prove that the succession of true Pastors of the Romish See hath been long ago , and often interrupted . And therefore this Rule will not serve your turns .

But though I have been long upon this principle of the Papists to prove the uncertainty of their faith , yet the next is the chief that I intended , which also proveth the mutability of it .

2. The Papists ordinarily hold that as to us , that is Gods Word which the Pope with his Clergy say is Gods Word ; and that his determination or Declaration that this or that is a point of faith , doth make it to us a point of faith , and necessary to be believed to salvation , which before was not so ; So that according to the Papists , the Churches faith must alter at the Popes pleasure ( at least with his Clergy ) And by new declarations and determinations , he may make them a new Article of their Creed , when he will : so that their faith is as mutable and fallible as their Pope ; and this they are themselves aware of : and therefore feign him to be infallible that they may prove their faith infallible : which if they could do ( as they never can ) yet still their faith is mutable by their own confession , if not by revocations , yet by new additions as to us : so that their Religion is in continual progress or flux , and groweth in quantity as every Pope doth adde his Determinations . Now I would know of any Papist in the world , or of the Pope himself if he would condescend to such considerations , whether they are sure that yet they have all that is made necessary to be believed to salvation , upon supposal of their determination ? How can they tell but that their successors may make the Creed as long again as it is , and make their Religion another thing ? I know they will say , that as to them no more is de fide then the Pope determineth to be so .

But then , 1. If he would not determine it , no man should be bound to believe in Christ , and so none be damned for unbelief .

2 If it be a benefit to have all points of faith determined , Why are they not done , but one Pope must adde one , and another adde another to the end of the world ( if Christ should let them go on . )

3. Sure the preaching of any one Apostle or other Preacher of the Gospel in the first age did leave the unbelievers without excuse ; and not onely the Cathedral Determination of Saint Peter And why then doth not any Preachers Revelation of Gods will from his Word , oblige men now to believe as well as it did then ?

And 3. It is evident and undenyable that their practice is according to their principles . The Popish Religion changeth so fast by the new additions of several Popes , that it is not the same thing now , as it was heretofore . Look but into the Oath , or Trent Confession which I recited in the beginning , and you may presently see how their Religion is swelled bigger then it was . All the Popes Decretals , or at least all the Canons of Trent , and every General Council ( at least , confirmed by the Pope ) do enlarge their faith , as they adde any thing to what went before . What a multitude of things are de fide now , that were not so within a thousand years ? What man can give up himself to such a growing Religion , where we must waite on the Pope , as the Enthusiasts do on God , for new Additional Revelations ? And cannot know when we have all or halfe . How can they tell but their Creed may fill more volumes yet before that all their Popes have done with it ?

Nay further note , that the Pope can make not onely new wayes to Heaven , but several wayes to Heaven at once . He could once dispence with the Bohemians for receiving in both kinds , and yet make it necessary to the salvation of others , to take it but in one , because he so decreed it to be given . So that there shall be one Creed in one part of the world , and another in the rest .

It is a damnable Heresie in parts that are absolutely under his power , for the vuglar to read the Scripture in their own Tongue . But in England , he can make it Lawfull , lest it hinder his designes , though his Doctors have long determined that it is the Mother of all Heresies .

So that Popery is not the same thing in one Country as it is in another ; nor the same thing at Rome it self in one age as it is at another .

To give you a fresh example : How long have the Dominicans and Jesuites , the Jansenists , and the Molinists been in contention about Predestination , Freew●ll , Predetermination , Universal Redemption , &c. and one party condemned the other , professing their opinions to be heretical , and destructive to the Catholike faith ? as is to be seen in the writings between Petavius , Ricardus , and Vincentius , Lenis , alias Fremondus , with many more before them : But when they speak to us about these matters they perswade us that it is onely about certain Shool points that they differ , and not about any points of faith : For they are not points of faith to us till the Pope have determined them . And while the eager contenders on either side endeavor to have the Pope determine the controversie on their side , no Pope durst do it for fear of losing the reputation of his infallibility with the adverse party ; and so the unmerciful Popes have long suffered their Doctors to live in contention , and to write voluminously against one another , and their Romane Church to be broken into parties , because they would not once open their mouths to decide the difference . But now at last it pleased Pope Innocent the tenth ( though he durst not touch the principal points ) to favor his Jesuites so far as to determine five of the controverted points for the Molinists against the Jansenians ( when Pope Clement was once about determining all for the Dominicans as they thought ) Mark here the agreement of the Papists , and the stability of their faith . Before the determination each party maintained their way as de fide , and accused the other as Heretical : some boldly prognosticated ( as our Thomas Anglus alias White ) that the Pope would never determine the controversie about Predetermination . And now the Pope hath tryed the stomacks of his Dominicans with the Determination of these five Articles . First , to see how they will digest them before he went further : And he pronounceth them to be Heretical , and some of them temerarious , impious , and blasphemous too , condemning them with Anathema : Now those become points of faith on one side , and Heresies on the other which were none before . Till this Determination the Church of Rome wanted five Articles of their Creed , or had five fewer then now they have : A man might have been saved before , that had believed , that [ Liberty from necessity is not necessary to Merit ] with the rest of them , but now all of that belief must be damned . And was not the Pope unmerciful to the poor Dominicans , to send them all to Hell , that cannot change their belief , knowing how hard it is for a learned Tribe , especially so countenanced by Augustine , and Thomas , to alter their mindes unfeignedly at a word . And yet in the Trent Confession they must all solemnly swear and vow that all things delivered , defined , and declared , by the sacred Canons and Oecumenical Councils , especially that of Trent , they do without doubting receive and profess : though no man had ever heard the Popes Reasons , yet if he do but see the Determination of their Church , he must presently not onely believe the contrary to what he believed before , but do it also without doubting ; though they 'l confess millions are saved that believe Christ to be the Son of God , though not without doubting . Well : but see what unity is procured by the addition of these new Articles to their Creed ? The French Doctors ascribe to his holiness that the said Articles may be taken in several sences : The one sence is Heretical , Lutheran or Calvinian , but that is a sence , That the words lawfully used will not hear , but onely may malignantly be fastened to them ( say they ) The other sence ( which is genuine and proper ) they Def●nd themselves , as true , and as pertaining to the Belief of the Church , as the Doctrine of Augustine , and as defined by the Council of Trent , and the contrary Opinion of Molina and the adversaries others maintain to be Pelagian or Semipelagian . See here what the Papists themselves now do implicitely charge upon the Pope ; That he ( by his express unlimited condemnation ) doth malignantly fasten an Heretical sence on the words , which properly they will not bear , or else that he contradicteth Augustine and the Council of Trent , and Anathematizeth the Christian faith , and maintaineth the Semipelagian Heresie of Molina . And yet must we judge either their Pope to be infallible ; or their Church to be at such unity in faith as they would make the ignorant vulgar believe ? More of the like contention about his holiness Determinations you may see in Tho. Whites Appendicula ad sonum Buccinae , and Franscus Macedo his Lituus Lusitanus : In all which you may see that all the comfort that the poor Dominicans have left them ( even their hope of salvation if they be Papists indeed ) consisteth in this , that the Pope speaks one thing and means another , and that ( as White so merrily saith , in so sad a matter ) The wise father of the Church was necessitated for the appeasing of contentions , to grant the more turbulent party their words , and the more obedient party their sence : so that when the Pope hath done all that he can to determine their controversies , they will still say , that he determineth but the words ( nay he doth but grant one party their words ) and not the meaning : and so not onely sence , but bare terms must be made Articles of faith .

And here you may see the great force of the Papists arguing for a necessity of a living Judge to determine of the sence of Scripture , because the Scripture is so ambiguous that each one will else wrest it , his own way : And do we not see , that the Pope cannot , after so many years deliberation , determine five short Articles so expresly and plainly , even when he doth it of purpose to decide the controversie , as to make his learned Doctors understand him ? but that each party doth take his words to be either for , or not against their opinions , and hold their opinions as fast since his determination as before : And so they do by Augustine , Thomas and the Council of Trent : each party confidently perswading the world that they were of their side . And may not God have the honor of speaking as plainly as the Pope or Thomas or the Council of Trent ? and cannot we well be without the Decision of such a Judge , as cannot speak so as to be understood by his greatest Doctors himself .

So that the Principles and Practices of the Romanists do assure us that their faith is unfixed , growing and mutable ; they may be one year of one Religion , and another year of another , as pleas● the Pope : A Dominican might have been saved at any time since the creation till May 31. 1653. when the Popes Determination was dated : but now they must all be damned for heresie . There is a new way to heaven made 1653. that never was before : and for ought they know to the contrary before their Popes have done Determining , there may be five hundred Articles more in their Creed . So that for my part I desire not either to be shut out of heaven at the pleasure of every new Pope , nor to be of so uncertain and changeable a Religion : And I cannot think therefore that Popery is a safe way to salvation .

Arg. 8. That Doctrine which derogateth from the written Word of God , and setteth the Decrees of men above it , enabling them to contradict its most express institutions , is no safe way to salvation : But such is the Doctrine of Popery : therefore it is no safe way to salvation

The Major is unquestionably true among true Christians . For the proof of the Minor I shall only give you three instances of the Popish Doctrine , because I intend not to be too particular , left I be too large .

The first is , their affirming the Scripture both to be insufficient to discover the whole doctrine of faith , as being but one part of Gods Word , and Tradition the other part , and also to be no Word of God at all to us , till the Pope and his Clergy do authoritatively determine it so to be ; or that we cannot know the Scripture to be Gods word , but upon the Authority of the Churches determination . But of this I have spoken before , and shall do more in another dispute .

The second instance that I give is , Their changing Christs most express institution , by withholding the Cup in the Lords Supper from the people , and giving them but half the Sacrament . I am not now disputing about the efficacy or inefficacy of one half , so delivered ; but proving the intolerable Arrogancy of the Papists that dare set up the will of man above Gods Word , and give power to the Pope to change Christs Institutions ; and not onely to adde but to diminish , and expresly to contradict Christ , and forbid what he commandeth . I know they pretend that it was but to the twelve Apostles that Christ gave the Cup , and not to the Laity : True , nor the bread neither : but then if he intended that none but the Clergy have the Cup , why may they not as well say so of the Bread ? But do not these deceivers know ? 1. That Christ gives this reason of his administring the Cup [ Drink yee All of it : For this is my blood of the New Testament which is shed for many for the Remission of sins ? ] So that if this reason hold to others , if his blood be shed for the sins of others as well as for the Clergie , then the command extendeth to others [ Drink ye all of it . ] And do they not know that Luke further intimateth this in his narration of the words of Christ [ This Cup is the New Testament in my blood which is shed for you ? ] So that those whom it is shed for ( and we may discern to be Believers ) it may be applyed to . 2. And do they not know that Paul delivereth the doctrine both of the Bread and Cup , as from the Lord , to the whole Church of Corinth , 1 Cor. 11. and not onely to the Clergy ? Is it not all that he expresly commandeth to [ Examine themselves , and so to eat of this Bread and Drink of this Cup ? ] Alas , they know all this : they cannot but know it , and yet they will contradict the express word of God : God saith [ Drink ye all of it ] and [ Let a man examine himself , and so drink : ] The Pope saith , Let none of the people drink of it , but the Clergy only . What is this but to abrogate Gods Laws , and set up the Popes above and against it ? Yea unless it were to shew the world their Power to contradict Christ and destroy his word , who can imagine what should move them to this attempt ? If there were any temptation of profit or honor in the business ( as there is in the maintaing of the Popes supremacy , Purgatory , Indulgences , Pardons , &c. ) we should not wonder at it : But what profit , or honor , or pleasure is it , thus to contradict Christ ? and for them that adde such a multitude of their own Ceremonies , to affect so to cut off one half of the Sacramental Rite and matter which Christ ordained .

Nay thirdly , Do not these men know that the Bread and Cup were both given to the people by the Primitive Church ? and that it so continued for many hundred years ? and that their alteration is a meer novelty . Yes , they know all this : For the matter is so far past doubt that they cannot but know it . And yet these deceivers would make the people believe that they are of the old Religion , and our Region is new . These are they that cry out against our casting off Apostolical Traditions , and the Churches constitutions and customs , and going in new wayes which our forefathers knew not : These are they that make it a mark of an Apostolical Tradition , that the whole Church hath received it , and that as from the Apostles . And yet these men dare cast off , not onely that which they know the whole primitive Church received and practised as from the Apostles ( as Justin Martyr , Tertullian , and all antiquity profess ) but also is expresly contained in the Scripture . With what face can these that exclaim against novelty , introduce such a palpable novelty into the Church ? with what face can they that so cry up antiquity , gainsay all antiqiuty ? and they that cry up the whole Churches consent , so go against the consent of the whole Church for so many Ages after the Apostles ? They dare not deny but this part of Popery is utterly New , against the constant practice and Canons of all Churches .

The third point which I shall instance in , is , Their performing Gods publike service in Latine , and forbidding the people to read the Scriptures in their known vulgar Tongue ; when as the Apostle Paul hath written the greatest part of a whole Chapter , 1 Cor. 14. expresly against this opinion and practice , and for using of a known tongue that others may understand and be edified . The evasions by which they would elude that part of Scripture ; are so senceless that I think it not necessary to recite them : but rather suppose that they need no other confutation than the bare considerate reading of the Text ; and therefore I shall venture the Reader ( if he have common capacity and impartiality , and be but willing to know the truth ) upon any thing that the Papists shall be able to say , for their Latine Service , and locking up the Scriptures , so be it he will but read that Chapter considerately . And are not these good Teachers in Christs School that will lock up the Grammar from their Schollars , when it is the very office of the Presbyters to teach it the people ? And to hide from them that word of the living God , which he hath given the world to be their Directory to salvation ? The Prophets , and Christ and the Apostles did speak and write this word in a know● tongue to the people to whom they did immediately direct it : And must All hear and read it then , and onely the Learned now ? Are not these the men that take away the Key of knowledge , and will neither enter in themselves , nor suffer others to enter ? They do expresly contradict the Commands of God , and bid the people not read the Scripture , when God hath charged them to write it on the very posts of their houses , and on their doors , and that it be as a frontlet between their eyes , and that they teach it their children , speaking of it lying down and rising up , at home and abroad , Deut. 6 & 11. God makes it the mark of the Blessed man , Psal. 1.2 , 3. To meditate day and night in his Law , as making it his delight : and the Papists commonly maintain in their writings that to have the Scripture in the vulgar tongue is the root of all heresies . God maketh the study of his word the duty and mark of all his Disciples , and the Papists make it the mark of a Heretick , and have burned many a one for it here in Queen Maries dayes and tormented and burnt many by their bloody inquisition for it abroad . The very Pharisees thought that their vulgar were cursed that knew not the Law , and the Papists will not let it be made known to them lest it make them accursed . God saith [ To the Law and to the Testimony : if they speak not according to this word , it is because there is no light in them , Isa. 8.20 . ] The Papists cry out precul — hinc away : let it alone , meddle not with it , it will make you Hereticks : And indeed they have had large experience that the way which they call heresie , and contradicteth their impieties , is most effectually promoted by the word of God : and therefore they think they have some reason to speak against it . Saint John saith [ These things are written that ye might believe , and that believing yee might have life throagh his name ] Joh. 20.31 . The Papists say , Read not these holy writings , lest they destroy your faith , and bring you to damnation . When the man Luk. 10.26 , asketh Christ [ What shall I do to inherit eternal life ? ] Christ answereth him thus [ What is written in the Law ? how readest thou ? ] directing to the course which the Papists do forbid . The Apostle saith , that [ Whatsoever things were written aforetime , were written for our Learning , that we through patience and comfort of the Scripture might have hope ] Rom. 15.4 . But the Papists will not have men learn that , which was written for their Learning , Comfort and Hope . Joh● wrote to fathers , young men , and children , 1 John 2.12 , 13 , 14. Gods anger against the Jews was that [ He had written to them the great or wonderful things of his Law , and they had accounted them as strange things ] Hos. 8.12 . And the Papists will force people to be strange to these writings . Yet how familiar ( comparatively ) they were to the vulgar Jews and their very children ●s known and acknowledged . Is it not a high advancement of the Gospel Church , above the legal Jewish Church , which the Papists do vouchsafe it ? That we may not have the same liberty or means of knowledge as the very children of the Jews had ? Their children must be taught the Scripture , lying down and rising up , and our eldest people even to the lest breath must not read them , unless they can learn the tongues which they were first written in . The Jewes had the Septuagints Translation ( or that so called ) when the Hebrew grew strange to them , which the Apostles used in their ordinary citations ; and they heard the Gospel preached in the Syriack , which was then their vulgar tongue : But we may not read the same in our Vulgar tongue by the Papists consent , Moses , Joshua , Josiah , Nehemiah , Read the Scriptures to all the people , Exod 24.7 . Josh. 8.34 , 35. 2 King . 23.1 , 2 , 3. Neh. 8.3.8.18 . & 9 , 3 & 13.1 . And it was their custome to read Moses and the Prophets to the people every Sabbath day , Act. 13.27 . & 15.21 . 2 Cor. 3.15 . Luk 4.16 . And Christ useth to reprehend their strangeness to Scripture passages , as if they had not read them with such words as these [ Have ye not read , & c ? ] and [ Have ye never read , & c ? ] Mat 12.3.5 . & 19.4 . & 21.26 . & 22.21 . Mark 12.10.26 . Luk 6.3 . Luk. 10.26 . And Moses commandeth Israel , the Priests , Levites and all the Elders thus , Deut. 31.11 , 12 , 13. [ When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose , thou shalt read this Law before all Israel in their hearing ; Gather the people together , men and women and children , and the stranger that is within thy gates , that they may hear , and that they may learn , and fear the Lord your God , and observe to do all the words of this Law ; and tha● their children which have not known any thing may hear and learn to fear the Lord your God , as long a● ye live in the Land &c. ] It was therefore in a known tongue that it must be read ; And when the people understood not the old Hebrew tongue in which the Law was written , by reason of the change of their speech in the captivity , Nehemiah caused them to understand the Reading , Neh. 8.8 . No doubt , by expressing it in the language which they understood . And yet the Papists forb●d the unlearned , that have most need of teachings , the use of the holy Scriptures in a known tongue , and make it the mother of all Heresies . How impiously against God , and how cruelly against men , is this committed ? Must the God of heaven send down his Spirit to dictate an illuminating Doctrine to his Prophets and Apostles for the world ? must he give them a perfect Law , by which Truth and Heresie must be discerned ? Must he send his own Son to preach the Gospel ? and cause his instruments to write it , in a language best known to those that they conversed with , or to the world that was to be converted by it ? And must this Doctrine now be made the mother of Heresies , and kept from the eyes of the people that should learn it ? What , must the onely rule that condemneth Heresies , be made the cause of them ? Must the light which God hath given the world , be blamed for all the Darkness of mens errors ? Or must men be kept from the light , for fear least it lead them into Darkness ? This is the Popish Piety and Charity : In stead of helping to Illuminate the dark world , as all preachers of the Gospel should do ( Act. 26.17 , 10. ) they ●ust have all the unlearned to put out their eyes , ●d be led by their guides , and trust their souls with them , for fear lest if they have any eyes in their heads , and any light to walk by , they should stumble or erre through the imperfection of their sight .

And yet the Papists , who so much pretend to unity , are various and changeable in this high point of their abomination , as well as in other things . For when they once see that they cannot keep the Scriptures from the people , because the Protestants Translations are among them , then they will permit them to read their own Translations : And upon this account the Rhemists translated the New Testament into English , when they saw they could not wholly suppress and hide that light : And on this account it is that our Papists in England , and some other parts where the Protestants abound among them , are permitted by their Priests ( with some warnings of the needlessness , and the danger of it ) to read the Scripture in their Country tongue : When as to a Papist in Spaine or Italy it is no less a crime then to merit the Rack or Strappado of the Inquisition , and its strange if they be not burnt for it at a stake . So that I have met with some seduced Papists in England , so ignorant of their course abroad , and so gulled by the lies of their companions or Priests , that they would not believe that they do any where forbid the vulgar to read the Scripture in their own tongue ; but were confidently perswaded that it was our slander of them : so that these poor people believe that the Sun is not set in Spaine at midnight , because it shines at noon in England . Let them read but Joh. Arboreus Theosoph l. 8. c. 9. Andradius Defens . Concil. Trident. l. 4. Petrus Lizetus Dialog. de sacris libris in vulg. Floq non evertendis . Hosius Dialog. de Communion . &c. Petrus sutor de Translatione Bibliae : Bellarm. de verbo Dei l. 2. c. 15. & 16. Salmeron . in 1 Cor. Disp . 30. Bellarmine himself mentioneth the Index librorum prohibit . of Pope Pius 4. Reg. 4. which forbiddeth the reading of the Scripture , in the vulgar tongue , except only to those that the ordinary shall think will receive good and not harm by it , and so shall have a licence from him in writing , and they pronounce that the common permission of the Scriptures thus doth more harm then good : The same Index was after encreased and approved by Pope Sixtus 5. and Clemens 8. And how few they are that their Ordinaries will grant Licences to , for the reading of Scripture , is too well known by common experience . The Kings of Spaine forbid all Translations of the Bible into the vulgar tongues ; and Alphonsus a Castro commendeth them for it : and many a one hath been burnt to ashes for selling , keeping , or reading such Bibles , in Spaine , Italy , and Savoy . And Bellarmine mentioneth the Sess. 22. cap. 8 and Can. 9. of the Council of Trent forbidding both the Common reading of such Bibles , and also the publike use of them in the Churches , in both which we must have them onely in Hebrew , Greek , and Latine . Bellarm. ubi supr . If these be not notorious enemies of the Light , who are ? David faith , Psal. 119. That the word was a Lanterne to his feet , and a Light to his Paths . Isaiah sends us to the Law and to the testimony , saying that if they speak not according to these it is because there is no light in them , Isa. 8.20 . And the Phpists say ( as Arboreus ubi supra ) that the reading the Scriptures in the vulgar tongue is the Rise or Root of all Heresies : And so the Sun must be taken out of the firmament as being the fountain of all darkness , or at least the cause of mens wandrings . Onely where they cannot help it ( or as Stapleton saith , where Heresies are most common ) there they will permit or connive at it , for their own ends . For Necessity hath no Law .

I conclude therefore , and confidently conclude , that Popery is not a safe way to heaven , because it doth 1. both vilifie Gods Scriptures as an insufficient Rule , and but part of his word : And 2. presumeth to alter its most express institutions ( as the Cup in the Lords Supper ) And 3. expresly contradict it , in forbidding the Prayers of the Church to be in a known tongue . 4. And forbid the publike reading of Scripture in a known tongue . 5 And forbid the translating of Scripture , and the reading of such translations even by any private man , unless he have the Ordinaries Licence , which he may get in those Countries where there is no remedy . The Kingdome of the Devil is called in Scripture the Kingdom of darkness ; and Christs Kingdom is called , a Kingdom of light : and when ever God converteth a sinner , he translateth him from the Power of Darkness into his marvellous light , even into the Kingdom of his dear Son , Act. 26.18 . Col. 1.13 . 1 Pet. 2.9 . And God is the father of lights , Jam. 1.17 . And Satan is the Prince of the powers of darkness , Luk 22 53. Rev 16.10 . And Christ hath told us , that he that walketh in darkness stumbleth and knoweth not whither he goeth , Joh. 12.35 , 46. And that every one that doth evil hateth the light , neither cometh to the light lest his deeds should be reproved ; but he that doth tru●● cometh to the light that his deeds may be made manifest , that they are wrought in God , Joh. 3.21 . The Papists therefore give us reason to think they have not the truth , were it but in this enmity which they bear unto the Light .

Arg. 9. That doctrine which teacheth men to worship the creature with Divine worship , is no safe way to salvation . But Popery teacheth men to worship the creature with Divine worship : Therefore it is no safe way to salvation .

The Major will not be denyed by Papists : The Minor I prove by one instance onely ( at this time : ) and that is , their worshiping of the consecrated Host or Bread in their Mass , and at other times . He that worshipeth the consecrated Bread with Divine wor●hip , doth worship the creature with Divine worship : But the Papists worship the consecrated Bread with Divine worship therefore . They deny the Major , and tell us , that it is no longer Bread but the Body of Christ : But that they worship that thing which we call Bread , and they call Christs Body , with Divine worship , they do not deny . Onely some would excuse them from the guilt of Idolatry ( which is a worshiping the creature instead of the Creator ) by this , because they think it is Christ that they worship , and so interpretatively it is he in deed and the worship right . But if they will think that to be Christ which is not Christ , and then worship it , that will not excuse them from being some kind of Idolaters : What if they will think a Ranter or Quaker to be Christ , who call themselves Christ ? are they therefore excusable if they worship them ? Then why might not the old Pagan Idolaters be justified , or thus excused , seeing they thought that the Sun and Moon had been Gods . And when they worshiped an Image , they thought that some Deity had affixed this special presence to that Image : What if an Egyptian thought that an Oxe was God , or that a Deity did dwell in him , were they therefore no Idolaters ? And then , how hainously God taketh the sin of Idolatry , the Scripture fully witnesseth .

That which we have to do , therefore is onely to enquire whether indeed it be bread or Christs body , a creature or the Creator which they worship ? Concerning which there is so much said by Doctor Featly against Fisher , and by Peter Martyr against Smith , and elswhere , and by Jewel , Foxe , and abundance more , that if people would read it , I should think it vain to say any more . I shall onely annex ●hese Reasons ( very briefly ) which come first to my thoughts to prove that the Bread is not turned into the very body of Christ , but remaineth Bread still .

1. If the Bread were Christs real Body , then Christ had two real bodies : for he had one sitting at the table , which delivered the Bread , and if the Bread were another , he had two : or else the body that Christ sate and lived with , was not a whole body , but a part : But Christ had but one body , and that was entire .

2. It would follow also that Christ had a living and a dead body , a sensible and insensible body both at once .

3. It would follow that the Apostles did tear Christ true flesh , and draw out his blood as well as the Jews did .

4. Yea and that they began to the Jews , and did it before them : And therefore why should the Jews act , and theirs be so much differenced ?

5. It will follow that either Christ had one body torne by the Jews , and another by the Disciples , or else that one part of his body onely was crucified and not the whole : for the other part was eaten and drunk by the Disciples before .

6. Also either Christ had one body that did Rise again and another that never rose , or else it was but one part of Christs body that rose from the dead ; for the other part was eaten and drunke before .

7. The like may be said of his ascension ; Then it is not Christs whole body that ascended up into heaven : for part of it was eaten before by the Disciples , and digested by them .

8. It will follow that Christs glorified body is corruptible , and may be digested by a mans stomacke , and turned into dung : For so is that which is eaten .

9. It will follow also that Christs body may become an integral part of our very natural bodyes , and so his body is become sinful , as being a natural part of a sinner : for the Bread and Wine do nourish us , and turn into our substance .

10. Yea it followeth that Christ doth thus turn into the substance of every child of the Devil that eateth the consecrated Bread , and drinketh the Wine . For they certainly nourish him and turn into his substance : A most horrid consequent : For what communion hath Christ with Belial ?

11. Nay ( which is in some respect more horrid and abominable to imagine ) it will follow , that the Glorified body of Christ may turn into the substance of a mouse or a Dog : for if they eat it , the bread will certainly nourish them , and become their substance .

12. It will follow that either Christ hath an insensible body , or else men hurt him by eating him in the Eucharist .

13. It followeth that Christ hath as many thousand bodies , as there be consecrated hosts , or else that by continuation of parts it is every where , and filleth all the world ( which the Papists disavow . )

14. It followeth that Christs body admitteth of augmentation , and either daily or weekly receiveth new made parts , or else that he hath new bodies made daily .

15. Also it followeth that a creature ( either the Baker or the Priest ) may make God , or make his Saviour , at least instrumentally : which is a horrid imagination .

16. It followeth that either Christs body hath the accidents of colour , taste , dimension , &c. which are there sensible , or else that those Accidents have no subject , which is a contradiction .

17. It followeth also that Christ hath not indeed a true humane body , if it be such as is before implyed .

18. And it followeth that the body of Christ is ( part of it ) condemned , hated of God , and tormented by the Devil . Because his body was turned into the bodies of many millions of wicked men , which must be so condemned , hated and tormented .

19. Also it followeth that the Scriptures are not true , which tell us that the heavens must receive him ( in that humane nature which ascended from earth ) till the times of the restitution of all things , Act. 3.21 . and that he shall come again to judge the world .

20. Lastly it will follow that a man must not trust his sences : that though my eyes , my smell , my taste , my feeling , tell me that this is Bread and Wine , yet they are all deceived : and not mine only but all the senses in the world , to which they are objected . And if that be true , 1. What reason have I to trust any Papist living ? For all my good opinion of him must be ultimately resolved into something that I see or hear of him : And it seems , I am uncertain whether I see or hear him indeed or not . 2. And then how can I tell that I or any man is sure of any thing ? For if the senses of millions in perfect health may be all deceived in this , why not in other things , for ought we know ? 3. And then how can any Papist tell that the Bread is turned into Christs body ? If he say , because the Church or the Scripture saith so ; How knoweth he that , but by hearing or seeing ? and therefore for ought he knows his senses may be deceived when he thinketh he heareth or readeth such a thing , as well as when he thinketh that he seeth , feeleth , smelleth , and tasteth Bread and Wine .

And is there not need of very strangely cogent evidence now to impell them to believe against the concurrent vote of Scripture , sense and reason ? And what is the ground of their contrary belief ? Not the Ancient Church ( unless they willfully or negligently deceive themselves ) for the stream of antiquity is full against them : so full that its hard to believe that any of them that s verst in antiquity can truly think that antiquity is for them , if they have but the common reason of men to understand what they read . What is it then that bringeth them to this belief ? Is it the Scriptures ? That s not likely , because they make so light of it , and swear to take it in the sence of the Church , or ancient Doctors ( in which last they are here and oft most desperately forsworn ) It must be then upon the Authority of the present Church , that is , the Pope and his Clergy , that they entertain this hard belief . That is , The Pope and his Clergy believe it , because they say it themselves , and the rest believe it because the Pope saith it . And is it truely possible that any man should have so good a conceit of himself , yea or any other think so well of him , as to believe unfeignedly so great a thing upon so weak a ground ? Can the Pope therefore believe it because he doth believe it ? Or is it not too probable that thousands of them are of that Belief which Melancthon sometime told them of very smartly [ You Italians ( saith he ) Believe Christ is in the Bread , before you Believe that there is any Christ in heaven ] while they pretend to a faith above men ( that is , to believe Impossibilities upon the Popes credit ) I wish they prove to have the common belief of Christians ; and that in heart they do not ( as once one of their Popes did ) account the Gospel but a commodious fable . But let us suppose that indeed it is the word of God that is the ground of their strange belief , and that [ Hoc est Corpus meum , This is my body ] is the very word that doth convince them , as some of them do pretend . I would here be bold to aske them that say so , a Question or two . 1. What , if the Ancient Church had intecpreted this Text as we do , against your Transubstantiation ? would you then have believed it upon the bare Authority of this Text ? What need I ask this ? Your own Oaths and Profession saith , No : It is not then any evidence in this Text that compelleth your belief . And let me adde , that if I prove not ( in a fair debate upon a just call ) that the ancient Church for many hundred years after Christ , was against Transubstantiation , I will give all the Papists in England leave to spit in my face ( for all the high expressions of the Eucharist that some fathers have . ) 2. What is there in those words [ This is my body ] that can perswade any sober Christian to their strange belief ? What is it , because that they are properly and not figuratively to be understood ? And how is that proved ? Is it because we must not force the Scripture , but take it in the plainest , obvious sence ? I easily grant it . But who knows not that both in Scripture and in all our common speech , the figurative sence is oft the most plain and obvious , and the literal the most improbable ? What three sentences do we use to speak together without some figurative expression ? I will appeal to any unprejudiced man of reason , whether a Christian that should newly read those words of Christ , and had never heard them or read them before , would not sooner take them in our sence , then in the Papists ? They may easily try this upon a new convert , if they please : and I dare make their own consciences judge , if they have any left to befriend a common truth . What is there more in [ This is my Body ] being a Sacramental business , then for a man that is in a room among many Images , to say [ This is Peter or Paul , or this is Augustine or Hierom or Chrysostome ? ] And would not any unprejudiced stander by suppose that the most obvious sence of those words is [ This is the picture of Peter , Paul , & c. ? ] Or would a man easily believe that it was the meaning of the speaker , that this Picture was the very real flesh and blood of Peter and Paul , and all other Pictures that ever should be made after the same exemplar , should be so transubstantiated ? So what is the obvious signification of those words [ This is my body ] but [ This is the Sacrament or Representation of my Body ? ] Especially when his real body was distinctly there present , and he expresly biddeth them [ Do this in remembrance of me . ] 3. I would desire any Papists living to tell me , why the Text doth not as much oblige him to believe that [ The Cup is the New Testament ] substantially without a figure , as that [ The Bread is his Body ] For the Text as expresly saith one as the other , Luk. 22.20 . This Cup is the new Testament in my Blood . ] Yet I suppose they will be content to say that by [ The New Testament ] is meant , the Sacrament or Seal of the New Testament . 4. Why will not these blind wretches believe the Holy Ghost , who calls it Bread at the eating after the consecration ? 1 Cor. 11.26 , 27 , 28. three times together ; and tells us that the use of it is to remember and shew the Lords death till he come .

I might here adde to this in the next place their worshiping o● Saints , especially of the Virgin Mary , with prayers to her as the Queen of Heaven , to forgive their sins , and to command her Son to forgive them , with abundance more of such impious , idolatrous or sacrilegious expressions , as might make the ears of a sober Christian even to tingle . But these things have been so oft told them , and are so visible in their Offices and other writings that I shall pass them over . As also their worshiping of Images , and publike using them to that end in their Churches : Though most of their Laity that I have met with , say that they use them but for a remembrance of the Saints and do not worship them ( and that s bad enough in such cases ) yet their learned Schoolmen and Doctors tell us another tale , as is too visible in many of their writings .

Arg. 10. That Doctrine which teacheth men to turn the most of Gods worship into meer unreasonable ceremonies and vain formalities of mans dev ; ising , is not a safe way to salvation . But such is the doctrine of Popery : Therefore , &c

The Major is certain : For 1. God hath taken down the ceremonial Law which he himself had made , and therefore will not give leave to man to set up another in its stead , and to burden his Church with unncessary things . 2. It is contrary to the freedom and spiritual state of the Gospel Church . The Apostle bids us stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free : And Christ saith , that God is a Spirit , and they that worship him , must worship him in Spirit and Truth : for such worshipers the Father seeketh : And he telleth the formal ceremonious Pharisees , that they worshipped God in vain , teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men , Mat. 15.6 , 7 , 8 , 9. Joh. 4.23 , 24. Gal. 5.1 .

As for the Minor , it were tedious to recite but half the Romish ceremonies and formalities with which ●hey both delude and burden poor sinners . For the word of God in a tongue which they understand , they must hear a sound of a strange language which they understand not : Instead of singing praises with the heart ( as David ) and with the understanding ( as Paul requireth ) they sing over prayers and Scriptures and other things in uncouth notes and in the Latine tongue , which the people understand not : The Eucharist or Lords Supper is also celebrated in Latine and the prayers and praises adjoyned ; and the Cup taken from the people : and all turned into a meer shew , by elevation of the host , adoration of it , gaping while the Priest doth pop the Bread into their mouthes . Prayers also are used in Latine , so that the substance of publike worship is thus made a very Picture , or unreasonable service : Yea , they teach them to pray partly in Latine in private , and partly with vain repetitions , multiplying over the name Jesu , nine times together , and rehearsing over their canting shreds , and numbering their prayers on their beads to keep tale , and observing such and such hours , and praying to Saints , to one Saint for this and another for that , giving the elogies and prayers and praises to the Virgin Mary , that are due to God alone : Sacraments they multiply : even Marriage which in the Clergy is a deadly sin , and the avoiding it by the Laity is a work of supererogation , yet must it be a Sacrament . The Rules of their several Monastical orders , were tedious to recite : Touch not , taste not , handle not : such meats must not be eaten on such a day : such orders must use such meats , and forbear such : other Orders forbear other meats : some must be thus shorn , shaven , clothed ; and some thus : Much of their Devotion consisteth in being sprinkled with Holy Water , anointed with Chrysme : creeping to the Altar ; striking 〈◊〉 the breast ; making and wearing the Cross ; setting it up , and worshiping it in high wayes and Church-yards , worshiping Crucifixes ; and bowing before the Images of God , the Holy Ghost in the form of a Dove , and of the Saints ; travelling to certain Images and shrines in Pilgrimage , offering to them , especially to our Lady at some famous places ; compassing the Church so oft ; formal penances : observing multitudes of Holy-dayes for the Saints ; hearing so many Masses , saying such or such words , carrying Palms , taking ashes , carrying banners , following the Cross , and host in processions , and worshiping it , bearing candles : In Baptisme , salting , crossing , spathing , exorcizing , washing hands : Also baptizing bels : Ceremonious consecrations ; saying Dirges , and Masses for departed souls : forswearing marriage : renouncing propriety : pardons and indulgencies from the Pope ; with abundance of the like delusory carnal formalities in which much of the Popish devotion doth consist . And how can any unprejudiced man , that is but possessed with the Spirit of God , and truely knoweth what it is to worship him , imagine that God is pleased with such histrionical gandes , and childish things ? I confess the reading of their very books of devotion , their offices to our Lady , and others the like , which are stuffed with such superstitious and unreasonable passages , seems enough to me to turn the heart of a sober man against their way . For who can think that the Holy and Blessed God will be delighted in their vain bablings and childish cantings , and affected ropetitions of words , and saying , and hearing we know not what ? would any wise man regard such expressions of love or honor ? If your friend or your child should express his Love and respects to you by mimick gestures , and gambals , and making strange faces , or repeating over your name nine times in a breath , or ridiculous cantings , complements and actings like a Stage Player , would you applaud , or delight in such expressions of love and honor as these ? Or would you not rather say as the Philistine King of David , when he spit , and scraped on the Wall , Have I need of mad men ? It is sure a carnal unreasonable doctrine , that leadeth men to such carnal unreasonable services , of that God who will be served reasonably in spirit and in truth . They that have but an Image or shadow of Faith and Grace , and can expect no more of Glory , are like enough to be well pleased with these Images and meer shadows of Gods worship : But its like to be otherwise with him that hath a spirit of supplication and holiness within him , and hath known by experience what it is to walk with God , and offer him acceptable sacrifices , and to receive the tokens of his acceptance and approbation .

Arg. 11. If Popery be maintained commonly by most wicked and abominable meanes , and so by the Devil , then it is no safe way to Salvation . But the Antecedent is too true : Therefore , &c.

I speak not here of the meer miscarriages of some of their party ; but of the Pillars by which the Popes Kingdome is supported ; which that it is by abominable wickednesse , I shal● give you but these few instances following .

1. The very business or prize which they so much contend for , is Pompe , Greatness , Dominion , yea Tyranny in the world : so that it is evidently Pride , Vain-glory , and Covetousness that sets them on , and is the Spring of all their contests . What s the chief part of the quarrel , but whether the Pope and Cardinals of one City , even Rome , shall be the Rulers and Masters of all the Christian world , and all Princes and People obey them ? What unprejudiced man can be so blind , as not to see that this contest is Tyrannical , and that their Dominion is their Religion , and their Pride is their faith , and that the question is but that which one would think Christ had once sufficiently determined , Who shall be the greatest ? Did not Christ chide his Disciples for this contest ? and say , With you it shall not be so ? But the Papists , having no better way to prove the Scripture a nose of Waxe , and as flexible and multiform , as they accuse it to be , then by making it so to themselves by abusive violence and perverting it , puting by the plainest words that Christ can speak , and will take his Decision for no Decision , when it makes against the Decisive Power of their Pope .

2. And this is yet further manifest , in that such a multitude of their Popes have been Whoremongers , Murderers , Heretickes , Simoniacall , buying the Popedome with money , and poysoning one another to obtain the Popedome , and living in it liker beasts then men ? Of all which I onely appeal to Platina and other of their own Writers .

3. Another Pillar of Popery is most unconscionable impiety : They can dispense with the vilest sins for the promoting of their Kingdom . They can dispense with Oaths and with obligations of subjects to their sovereignes , with leagues of Peace and amity among Princes , yea they can themselves actually promote and execute the most abominable impieties , that will but help them to attain their ends . I will now onely instance in that which is fresh before our own eyes in England . The Papists know that Anabaptists and Separatists are erroneous ; they know that Ranters and Quakers are abominable ; and yet for their own ends , dare they here in England , put on the vizard of Anabaptists and Quakers , and with all possible subtilty and zeal , and unwearyedness , go up and down to seduce the people to be Anabaptists and Quakers , as they did a while ago to be Seekers , if not Infidels . This is sufficiently known and proved not only by the Popish pretended Jew that turned Anabaptist at Hexham , and was taken at Newcastle , and others of them taken , but by many other Testimonies , some upon oath of those that have heard such confessions from their mouthes ; and many have known them in the Quakers Assemblies , that have seen them before elswhere : And all this is done by them that they divide us and break us in pieces , and steal a credit to their pretended unity and Church Government , and turn the hearts of the people from our Ministery , and unsettle them , and make them more capable and receptive of their own opinions , and that they may make others abroad believe that we are all running mad . And can that doctrine be of God , which teacheth men to do such abominable things ? Or is that like to be the cause of Christ that must be thus upheld ? Is that person guided by the Spirit of Christ , that dares draw others to the vilest blasphemies and wickedness in a dissembling garbe , that so he may promote his own cause ? certainly Christ needeth not such hypocrisie , and wickedness for the promoting of his Kingdom ; but it seems the Pope doth need it for ●is .

4. Another of the Pillars of Popery is most gross and impudent lying . Did I not know it to be true , I durst not accuse them of it . I will give you but these three instances following .

1. They do raise and with greatest confidence propagate , most shameless lies of those whom they take for their leading adversaries . We read them in the open writings of Cochlaeus , Bolse , Staphilu● Thyraeus , and many more . What abominable stories have they of the Death of Luther , Oecolampadius , Bucer , Calvin , and others ; which it is very unlikely that they can be so blinded with mali●e as to Believe themselves ? What conference do we ever manage with them which they do not misreport ? Witness the late ridiculous passage after the conference between Fisher and Doctor Featly and Doctor White , when they boasted beyond Sea of the number of Converts , and in particular of two Earles , and this to the Earl of Warwick himself ( not knowing him ) who was fained to be one of them , and who had been a witness of their weakness . And how poorly doth Weston in his Pamphlet put this off .

2. The next instance I will give is their abominable lying legends , by which they have befooled the people , and made themselves ridiculous to the world , and occasioned others to question their reports in other things . I shall give you a taste of some of them , as Doctor Featly hath gathered them to my hand in his Epistle to the foresaid conference , yet with the Authors that report them , that you may try whether they be wronged . As that Saint Brigit laid her wimble , and Saint Aldelme his chesible upon a Beam of the Sun which supported them ( vit. Sanct. Brigit . & vit. S. Aldelmi . ) That Saint Nicolas while he lay in his cradle fasted Wednesday and Friday ; these dayes he would suck but once a day ( Festivale de Sancto Nicol ) That Saint Patricke caused a stoln Sheep to bleat in the belly of him that had eaten him ( Legend . de St. Patricio ) That the Corps of Saint Laurence at the coming of Saint Stephens●ody ●ody smiled for joy , and turned himself to the other side of the Sepulcher to make room for him ( Legend . de S. Steph. ) That Clemens wrote a letter to Saint James seven years after he was dead ( Clem. Ep. ad Jac. in Ep. Pontif. ) That Saint Denis carryed his head in his hand three miles , and rested at each place of the posts , that are set between Paris and Saint Denis ( Breu. & pictur . Dionys. ) That Saint Dunstane held the Devil fast by the nose with a pair of Tongues ( Leg. de Dunst . ) That the chamber of our Lady was carryed by Angels through the air from Palestine to Loretto in Italy ( Hist. de Nostre Dame de Lor●tto . ) That our Lady helped Saint Thomas Becket to mend or stich his haircloth ( Annot. in Clemanges ex Caesario . ) That a Parrot crying out , Saint Thomas help me , was delivered from a Hawke ( Legend . de Thom Cant. ) That Saint Lupus did shut up the Devil in a Tankard all night ( Legend . de Lupo . ) That Saint Dominicke made the Devil hold him the candle till he burnt his fingers ( Legend . de Domin . vid. Melch. Can. loc. Theol. ) That Saint Francis swallowing a Spider in a Chalice , it came whole out of his thigh ( vid. Franscis . ) That Fryer Andrew to correct his appetite of eating Birds at the Table by the sign of the Cross , commanded them to fly away after they were roasted ( Sedu●● Francis . )

I will not trouble you with the recital of more , nor do I say that their Councils have made these Articles of faith , but their Church doth indulge and make use of such lies for the beguiling of the vulgar .

3. The third instance that I give is , their abominable forgeries , and depravations of ancient writings : Feigning Decretal Epistles of their Popes , and many other writings under the names of ancient Fathers : and presuming to expunge , alter , and falsifie the true writings of the Fathers , and of the better sort of their own , as is proved already against them by many , and I need not here recite : ( See Doctor Featlyes aforesaid Confer . Append. ) Which hath done us so great a mischief , by making much if not most of the writings of the Ancients uncertain to us , as is scarce easily expressable nor are they ever able to repaire ( as the late King of England told the Marquess of Worcester in the beginning of their conference . ) See more in Doctor Willets Tetrastilon Papismi .

5. Another of the principal props of Popery , hath been most horrid inhumane bloodshed and cruelty . How many thousands of the Waldenses and Albigenses they cruelly murdered in Savoy and France , since the year One thousand one hundred and sixty . How many in Bohemia ! How many in other Countreyes , who can possibly enumerate . Cesarius saith , The Waldenses had infected a thousand Cityes . Parsons saith , That they were so numerous that they had an Army of seventy thousand men to fight for them , and that they were so spred even in Germany that they could travail from Colen to Milan in Italy and every night lodge with Hosts of their own profession . Yet did the Papists by fire and sword disperse destroy them , from the year 1206. to 1228. they had so filled their prisons with those that they had left , that the Archbishops stay it , because it was impossible to defray the charge of their food , or to build prisons for them ( as they themselves speak ) yet after this 1260. Morrel in his Memorials saith , p. ●4 . That there was above eight hundred thousand persons that made profession of the faith of the Waldenses : ( And some of their own Popish writers say , that it was so ancient that they affirmed themselves to have thus continued successively from the Apostles : And yet the Papists would make men believe that Luther was the first founder of the Reformation ) I desire the Reader that can have it to read Mr. S. Clarks general Martyrology of the persecution of the Waldenses and Albigenses , and also of the Spanish Inquisition , the Bohemian , and French cruelties , and the Irish of late to spare me the labor of further recital . The very perfidious French Massacre at once was thought in a few dayes space and a little room to murder about thirty thousand persons , and this in a pretence of peace and quietness . So many bloody bouts hath that Nation had , that it is not like to be still unavenged . The cruelty of the Inquisition in Spaine another parts , will hardly here be believed . The most horrid cruelty of the Papists in Ireland lately were beyond all the rest . The number that they murdered in time of peace by a sudden insurrection is almost incredible . In the very Province of Vlster alone , about a hundred and fifty thousand were computed to be murthered . But God hath gone far in avenging their blood already . What should we mention such lesser matters as the burning so many in Queen Maries dayes , the Powder Plot to have blown up King and Parliament ; with many such fruites of the Romane fury ? In a word I conclude , that it is not like to be the cause of Christ that hath been so long upheld by such Devilish inhumane bloody means ; nor is it like to be true Doctrine which possesseth men with such a bloodthirsty spirit ; nor is it a safe way to salvation to swim thither through the blood of Saints : nor is it any better then a cruel scorning of Christ when they have persecuted him , to murther Christians by thousands for seeking Reformation , or not yielding to the Romish errors , and then to challenge us to name or shew our Reformed Church before Luther , or to accuse us of Schism for separating from them : These Wolves will accuse , where they cannot devour .

Arg 12. If Popery do adde to all these abominations impenitency and uncurableness , then it is certainly no safe way to Salvation : But Popery doth adde to all these abominations , impenitency and uncurableness : Therefore it is no safe way to Salva●i●n .

I do not mean that the persons are simply uncurrable ; but while they are Papists , or go according to their fundamental principle , they are utterly uncurable and impenitent . For their Principle is that their Pope or Church cannot erre , but is infallible : And so they are bound to stand to all their Determinations right or wrong : For if they should repent of any , and we return from any small or great , they should in so doing proclaim that they were fallible , and so let go the principle of their profession . So that there is no hope of repentance and amendment of any error once determined of , but onely by recanting the point of their Infallibility , to make way thereto . If therefore repentance and amendment be of necessity to Salvation , what Will become of these men that suppose themselves so infallible ? and how can that be a safe way to salvation that locks up the door against repentance and amendment ? Popery therefore is no safe way to salvation .

Arg. 13. That profession which plungeth men into certain perjury , and engageth them to impossibilities , and contradictories , is no safe way to salvation . But such is the profession of Popery : as I shall prove even out of the Trent Oath or Confession , which I recit●d in the beginning .

1. They vow and swear that [ All other things delivered , defined , and declared by the sacred Canons , and Oecumenical Councils , and especially the Holy Synod of Trent , they do without doubting receive and profess ] When as many of these Canons and Councils are contrary each to other , one undoing what another did , as shall hereafter be shewn : and yet they swear to receive them all . 2. They swear to receive them even [ without doubting ] when as they are thus contradictory , and when they confess that a true faith even in the written word of God , may have doubting mixt with it . 3. They vow and swear that [ They will never take and interpret the Holy Scriptures , but according to the unaniomous consent of the Fathers . ] When as 1. The Fathers do not unanimously consent among themselves concerning the sence of the greatest part of Scripture ▪ and so they are sworn to take it in no sence , because the fathers are not unanimous . 2. He that knows not the unanimous sence of the Fathers , where they are unanimous , is sworn hereby to take and interpret the Scripture in No sence . 3. If by [ The Church ] whose sence they also swear to admit , be meant the present Romane Church , then that Church and the Fathers do differ in the Interpretation of many Scriptures : so that in one Article they must needs be forsworn . 4. Nay there are divers particulars of the Popish faith , yea which in this oath they swear to , which are against ( much more without ) the unanimous consent of the Fathers . The Fathers never consented to this very Article , that we must take and interpret the Scripture onely in the unanimous sence of the Fathers : They never consented that the Bread and Wine are truely really and substantially the whole Body and Blood of Christ by Transubstantiation ? Nay the consent of the Fathers is against these : And yet these wretches swear not to take and interpret Scripture but in the unanimous sence of the Fathers , and withal swear the contrary in particulars ; even that they believe that which the Fathers never consented to , but against . Never did the Fathers consent that [ There are seven truely and properly Sacraments Instituted by Christ . ] Never did the Fathers consent ( who lived a thousand or fourteen hundred years before ) that the Council of Trent did not erre , or could not erre : Nor [ That in the Mass is offered a true proper propitiatory Sacrifice for the living and dead ] Nor that the Eucharist may be taken under one kind , and the Cup withheld : nor [ That there is a Purgatory , or the souls there holpen by the suffrages of the faithful ] nor [ that the Saints with Christ are to be prayed to ] Nor that Images were to be worshiped ] nor the power of Popish indulgencies left by Christ in the Church , and the use of them wholsome : Never did the Fathers consent that the Romane Church is the Mistris of all Churches : or that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ over them : nor that all Christians or Bishops or Pastors should swear true obedience to the Pope as Christs Vicar ? Let these proud deceivers shew us if they can when the Fathers , or any one of the Ancients , did ever take any such oath himself , or perswade others to it ? Yea or that they have consented to any one of these Articles of the Romish faith , and Trent oath ? What more evident to any man that hath any acquaintance with the Fathers , then that these wretches do here most palpably forswear themselves ? Even as if they should swear to believe nothing but according to the Ancient Creed , and withal swear to believe that Christ never dyed , rose , or ascended , or that there is no resurrection , or everlasting life . Certainly if the very faith of Papists be contradiction , and the profession of it plain perjury , then Popery is not a safe way to Salvation .

I would here have added as the fourteenth Argument : That Popery is a mixture of old condemned errors , formerly called Heresies ; which the ancient Church hath testified against ; and therefore it is no safe way to Salvation : And here I should have tryed their particular errors not yet mentioned , or insisted on , as their Doctrine of Merits and Justification thereby , Satisfactions , and many Semipelagian errors , Image-worship , with many the like : But that this is beyond my present intended scope , and purposed brevity , and is so fully performed already by so many unanswerable Treatises of our Divines .

Let us next here what is said of most moment , to prove Popery to be a safe way to Salvation .

Obj. 1. That Religion which hath been delivered down from the Apostles to this day without interruption , is a safe way to Salvation ( For it is the same that the Apostles and all the ancient Christians were saved in ) But the Religion of the Church of Rome is that which hath been delivered down from the Apostles : Therefore , &c.

Ans. 1. There is a change of the very subject of the question . It is [ Popery ] that we are disputing of ; and this argument instead of Popery speaks of [ The Religion of the Church of Rome . ] The Religion of the Church of Rome hath two parts ; First , the Christian Faith : Secondly , their own corruptions depraving and contradicting this Faith : The first as it standeth alone uncontradicted in the Religion which ●e profess : The second is it that we call Popery , and ●ay , It is no safe way to salvation . 2. And of this I deny the Minor , and say that Popery is not the ancient Religion , the Apostles and Primitive Church never knew it : There was no such creature as a Papist known in all the world till six hundred years after the birth of Christ : It was about 606. when Pope Boniface did first claim his universal Papacy and Headship : and after that it was not till about one thousand years that the usurpation and Tyranny was consented to any thing generally in th● West : And even the multitudes , still dissented , and some opposition was still made against it ; and all the Esterne Churches and the rest of the Christian world did dissent . Of these things there is enough said to silence all the Papists on earth in Bishop Vsher de contin . successione & slatu Eccles. Occident . and his Answer to the Jesuites Challenge , and by Bishop Jewell , and Doctor Field , and in many of the old Treatises against the Pope published together by Goldastus , which shew us that he setled not his Kingdom without continnual opposition and contradiction . We affirm that Popery is a meer novelty , and challenge all the Papists in the world to prove the Antiquity of it . When they have once arrogated to themselves the name of the Catholike Church , and taught the people to believe as the Church believes , that is , to believe that all is true which the Pope and his Clergy will report of themselves , it is then an easie matter for them to prove any thing to be true which makes for their turn : then they may say , The Fathers are for them , and that they have their Papal sovereignty from St Peter , when there is never a true word in it . Then they may frame and forge new Decretals , and cut out of the Ancient Writers th● which is against them , and bring forth spurious writings under their names ; and tell the people that our Religion begun with Luther : for its easie to prove any thing , where themselves are the Judges , and no witnesses but their own must be heard : But if they dare leave that hold , and come into the light , its easie to evince the novelty of Popery ( though not of every particular error they hold . )

Obj. 2. If the Church of Rome be a true Church ; then Popery is a safe way to salvation : But the Church of Rome is a true Church : Therefore , &c. The Antecedent is granted by most Protestants : ●he consequence is good ; for it is the true Religion that maketh a true Church and Popery is their Religion . If their Religion be not true , their Church is not true : If their Religion be true , then their Church is true : and if Church and Religion be true , then they are in a safe way to salvation .

Answ. 1. The word [ Church ] doth usually signifie among Christians , a Christian society , or a company of Christians associated for Gods worship and mutual edification : sometime any company of Christians whether so associated or not : sometime those are called [ Christians ] as distinct from Infidels , who profess most of the substance of Christianity , but deny some part , or who profess the whole substance or the fundamentals , though they contradict it again by plain consequence in other superadded points : Though these as compared with the Orthodox are wont to be called Hereticks . We deny not but that the greatest Papists are such Christians , and that as the word [ Church ] is applicable to combinations or companies consisting of such materials , so far the Roma●●sts are a true Church ; supposing that we onely speak of Metaphysical Truth . But as the word [ Christian ] is taken for one that so holdeth the fundamentals of Christian Faith , as not to subvert them by plain consequence after he hath professed them , so it is yet under dispute whether the Romanists be a true Church , and therefore not to be taken as granted . However those Protestant Divines that grant them to be a true Church , do say that it is but by a Metaphysical verity , convertible with the essence ; but that Morally it is a false Church and not a true ; as a thief is a True man , that is , truely a man , but he is not a true man , that is , not an honest faithfull man .

2. The thing called [ The Church of Rome ] consisteth not of Homogeneal parts : or at least that word signifieth several sorts of persons . There are some that with the Pope and his Cardinals entertain the full body of Popery , and enslave the rest : There are multitudes of the people , that silently live under them , and let them alone , and are defiled by them in many things , but receive not the great and most dangerous part of their corruption . These are not equally to be called the Church , nor are they equally in danger of damnation .

3. I deny the consequence of the Major Proposition ; For if the Church of Rome be a true Church it is because they are true Christians , and not because they are Papists : so that to argue [ The Church of Rome is a true Church , therefore Popery is a safe way to Salvation ] is as unsound as to argue [ Gebezi the Leper is a living man : Therefore the Leprosie is a thing safe or profitable to mans life ] Popery is the disease of their Church , and Christianity is it that makes them a Church : You may well therefore co●clude that Christianity is a safe way to heaven ; but not that Popery is so .

To the confirmation I answer , That the Religion of Papists hath two parts : The Christian Religion , as they are Christians , and that maketh them a true Church if they be one . And the Popish corruptions , which denominate them Papists , and that makes them not a true Church , nor is a safe way to salvation .

Obj. 3. If Papists may be saved , then Popery is a safe way to salvation . But Papists may be saved : Therefore , &c.

Ans. To the Antecedent or Minor I answer , that Papists be not all of a sort : some may be saved , and some cannot , if they so live and dye . If you aske who may and who may not ? I answer , that all those of them that hold the substance of the Christian faith , and that practically , notwithstanding their errors ; or that hold no errors but what consist with the Practical holding of the Christian faith , these shall be saved : But all those that finally hold any error which for matter or manner is inconsistent with the Practical holding of the Christian faith , shall be condemned .

2. To the consequence of the Major I answer , by denying it ; and that on the aforesaid account . If a Papist be saved , it is not by Popery , but from Popery . It is therefore no better reasoning than to say [ If a Leper may live , then the Leprosie is wholsome , or a safe to preserve life ] I have already spoke more to this . If such do live , it is with more trouble , and less ●omfort , and it s fewer that live long with it , then of other sounder men : Men should not cast themselves into a course of great doubt and difficulty as to their salvation , and when they have done encourage themselves in it , because other men of moderate and charitable mindes are afraid to conclude that they shall certainly be damned ? Is it not a great probability or danger of damnation very terrible , though you were not certain to be damned .

Obj. 4. There is but one true Church , and consequently but one safe way to Heaven : That one Church is the Romane Church : And therefore they and onely they , are in the safe way to Heaven .

Answ. If you speak of the Universal Church , which is Christs body , there is but one and that is all true Christians . But if you speak of particular associations of Christians called particular Churches , there are many thousands : And so we say that the Church of Rome is ( at best ) but one particular Church , or one combination of some particular Churches under the Bishop of that City : But that Rome , or the Romane party , are the whole of the Catholike Church of Christ , we do with abhorrency deny .

2. If the Church of Rome be any part of that Universal Church , and so in a state of Salvation , or way to it , it is not as Papists , but as Christians , as was said before . And therefore though there be but one safe way to Heaven , yet that one being not Popery , but Christianity , why may not other Christians be in a safe way to He●ven , as well as the Papists ? especially who are free from those dangerous diseases wherewith the Papists Christianity is corrupted .

Obj. 5. That Church which hath Vnity , Vniversality , Antiquity , and unintterupted succession of Pastors and Apostles , is the onely true Church , and consequently onely in the safe way to Salvation . But such is the Church of Rome : therefore .

Answ. 1. This concludeth not the point in Question [ That Popery is a safe way to Salvation . ]

2. We deny the Major , and blame them that they still thrust it on us without proof . To the particulars , 1. If Mahometans have unity , or if Satan be not divided against Satan , it doth not follow that they have the true Church ; men may agree in evil . 2. where was your universality also , when there were scarce seven Bishops left that were free from the plague of Arrianisme ? Universality absolute ( so that all errors or other parties should be excluded ) the Church hath never had the happiness to enjoy since the begining of its flourishing in the Apostles dayes . Universality comparatively , that is , the greater part the Arrians had , at least of the Bishops . The doctrine of the M●llenaries , with many such like may plead more antiquity than Popery can : And as for succession , there is no doubt but a Bishop or Church in the line of succession may turn Heretical , and have successors in their Heresie . Have none of the Greek Churches , nor Alexandria , Antioch , &c. had a succession till it fell into the hands of a Heretick ? and it would have beeen no good plea for the first Heretical Bishop or Church to plead such succession . If there be not a succession in Apostolical doctrine , the succession of persons will be no proof of the truth or soundness of the Church .

3. And for the Minor of your Argument , I answer . 1. The Ethiopian , Alexandrian and other Churches can as truely boast of these qualifications as Rome . 2. The Papists lay a higher claim to them then they can make good . As 1. I have shewed already how far they are from unity , who are not only of so many Religions or wayes of Discipline ; and of so great distance in many doctrinals , as the controversies among themselves do manifest , but also are so disagreed about the very center of their union , their infallible soveraign Power , whether it be in the Pope , or a General Council , or both ? Besides their unity is but of their own party , the Romanists : And so all other parties are at some unity among themselves : or many at least . If John of Constantinople had prevented the Pope , and got the Title of universal Bishop , or Pope , as he did ( by composition ) of universal Patriarch ; and had pretended that this would have united the Churches , I think it would not have justified his cause .

2. How can the Papists for shame pretend to universality either as to the present or former ages ? Is it nothing that all the Ethiopian , Greek , and Reformed Churches are not of their party , besides many a thousand more ? Or will they arrogantly condemne all the rest of the Christian world as heretical , and then say that they are the whole Church ? Did they not learn this of the Donatists ? But what is become of their modesty who pretend to an universality , for the time past , when all the Christian world was against their present belief , and there was not such a thing as a Papist known ( and revealed to us ) in the world of six hundred years after the birth of Christ .

3. And for their succession , we undertake to prove it interrupted long ago , and that there were no true Bishops at Rome of a long time : Though men have sat there that were chosen by Cardinals , and call themselves Bishops or Popes , yet if according to the Scripture and ancient Councils , they were matter utterly uncapable of that form , then its plain that they were but Statues , and had but the name without the thing , i. e. the office or authority , and therefore are unworthy also of the name it self . Let me name two or three of their own Writers that bear witness of this . And first their great parasite Cardinal Baronius saith ( ad an. 912. §. 8. ) [ What then was the face of the holy Romane Church ? how exceeding filthy , when the most potent and yet most sordid Whores did Rule at Rome ? by whose pleasure Sees were changed , Bishops were given , and which is a thing horrid to be heard , and not to be spoken , their sweet hearts ( or mates ) were thrust into Peters chair being false Popes , who are not to be written in the Catalogue of the Romane Popes , but onely for the marking out of such times . ] And after he well addes to shew that the interruption was not like to be onely in the succession of true Bishops [ And what kind of Cardinal Priests and Deacons think you we must imagine that these monsters did choose ? when nothing is so rooted in nature as for every one to beget his like ] See more in Baron . ibid. Platina speaking of the evil of those times ( de Benedict. 4. ) saith that [ By ambition and bribery the holy chair of Peter was rather seized on , then possessed . ]

Genebrard ( in Chronolog. l. 4. secul . 10. ) speaking of the great unhappiness of that age , saith , that [ In this one thing it was unhappy that for neer one hundred and fifty years about fifty Popes did wholly fall away from the vertue of their ancestors , being Apotactici , Apostaticive potius quam Apostolici , Disorderly and Apostatical , rather then Apostolical . ]

What shall we think of all those that murdered their predecessors to obtain the place , were they capable of being true Bishops ? What shall we say of Pope Silvester the second who was a conjurer , and agreed with the Devil to help him to be Pope , and by the deceit of the Devil was again deprived of it by suddain death ? Doth the Devil make true Bishops of conjurers ? I know the deceiving Papists would make the simple people believe that all these things that we say of their Popes are lies of our own forging : but men that have eyes in their heads may see who are the lyars Their own Writers do commonly affirm the same that we affirm . A Cardinal of their own ( Benno ) in vita Hildebrandi , affirmeth this of Pope Silvester : and he lived in the times next him , and therefore might know . Platina another of their own affirms ( in vita Silvest. ) that [ Gesbertus impelled by ambition , and devillish desire of rule , did first by bribery ( or Simony ) get the Archbishoprike of Rhemes , then of Ravenna , and at last of Rome , the Devil giving him more of his help , but on this condition , that after his death he should be wholly his , by whose deceits he had obtained such dignity . ] The like hath Lyra in Gloss ad cap. 14. Maccab. l. 2. and a multitude of their Hystorians unanimously confirm it . Yea Aeneas Sylvius who was a Pope himself ( de gest is Concil. Basil . l. 1. ) saith [ We are not ignorant that ( Pope ) Marcellinus did at Cesars command offer incense to Idols , and that another , which is a greater and more horrible thing , did come to be Pope of Rome by the fraud of the Devil . ] In a word if Murderers , Adulterers , Conjurers that come in by the Devil , and Hereticks , may be true Bishops of Rome , and yet a man that believeth not the Popes Univerversal Vicarship can be no true Catholike Christian ; then it seems , it is a greater sin not to Believe in the Pope then not to Believe in Christ , or then it is to bargain with the Devil , or be a Murderer or Adulterer ? Certainly these men were as uncapable of being true Bishops when these things were once publikely known of them ( at least ) as a Mahometane would be : And therefore there hath been many an interruption in their succession . And many a schism there hath been wherein two or three Popes have raigned at once , and he that had the greatest strength hath carryed it , when his Right was not the greatest .

QUERY . Whether the Infallible Judgement of the Romane Pope , or his Clergy must be the Ground of our Belief of the Christian Doctrine , or of our Receiving the Holy Scriptures as the Word of God ? N.

HAving already enquired whether the Romanists or the Reformed Churches are in the safe way to Salvation ; we shall now more particularly enquire whether their faith or ours be built on the surer grounds . Our Belief is thus resolved : we believe the Christian Doctrine to be True , because the True God is the Author of it . We discern that God is the Author of it , both by his Intrinsicke and Extrinsicke Seals or attestations of it : in that it beareth his image and superscription , and is confirmed by his undoubted uncontroled Miracles , and other effects which lead us to the cause . The revealing containing signs or characters are the the holy Scriptures . That these Books were written by the Prophets , Apostles and Evangelists , and were confirmed by Miracles , and are uncorrupted in the main , we are infallibly assured of , by the evident certainty of the historical attestation and Tradition : For we depend not barely on the credit of a deceivable or deceitful man ( such as is the Pope of Rome ) or of any fallible society of men ; but on such History as we can prove by plain reason to be infallible , containing in it , besides the Testimony of the Pope and all his party , the same Testimony also of all the rest of the Christians in the world , yea and of the very Hereticks who were enemies to much of the truth ; and enough also even from the mouths of Infidels to confirm us : so that by this infallible history , and universal Tradition , we have a fuller discovery that these Books are the same that were written by the Apostles , &c. then we have that the Statutes of Parliaments in the Reign of King James or Queen Elizabeth , are the same that they pretend to be : And to a man that heareth not God himself or the Lord Jesus or the Apostles , and hath not their immediate inspirations , we know not how the Laws of heaven should be more fitly delivered in an ordinary rational way , nor what surer other means such as we can expect , who live at such a distance from the first receivers of it : unless we would have God to speak to every man as he did to Moses , or have Christ or Apostles still among us , or unless God must make us all Prophets by his extraordinary inspirations . And lastly , the true meaning of this word we understand as we do the meaning of other Laws or writings having moreover the assistance of the spirit , which is necessary because of the sublimity and spirituality of the matter , and the necessity of the great effects upon our hearts : Our Teachers by Translation and further instructions are our helpers ( as they must be in other things that we would learn ) and by the help of them without and of the spirit within , we are able to understand the meaning of the words ( especially comparing text with text ) and so receive the sanctifying impress upon our hearts . And thus is the Faith of the Reformed Catholike Resolved . He receiveth the Bible from the hands or mouth of his Teachers ( and perhaps first believeth them fide humana , that it is Gods Word : ) He knoweth that this Book was written in Hebrew and Greeke by the Prophets and Apostles , by Infallible Hystory or Universal Tradition . He knoweth that they did it by Inspiration of the Holy Ghost , by the Image of God which he findeth on it , and by the uncontroled Miracles by which they sealed it . He believeth it to be True , because it thus proceeded from the Holy Ghost , and so is the Word of God who is most True .

Of the Resolution of our Faith according to the Protestant Doctrine . See L. du Plessis of the Church . cap. 4. Translat . pag. 121.122 , 123. and Conradus Bergius Prax. Cathol. Can. p. 208.209 , 210. Disp. 2. §. 125 , 126. To this same sence . Vid. & Sibrand . Lubbert . Princip. Christ . Dogm . li. 1. pag. 20 &c.

What the Resolution of the Romane faith is , the Question which we are now to discuss doth intimate in part , for it cannot be laid down in one proposition , because they are of so many minds themselves . Indeed we may see in this their foundation that Popery is a very maze and dungeon ; for the builders of this Babel are all in confusion at the laying of their first stone . Yet this much they seem to be mostly agreed in : a a Bellar. de Verbo Dei li. 1. cap. 2. That the Scripture is the word of God , and part of the Rule of faith and duty , b b Bellar. ibid. l. 4. cap. 3. but not the whole Rule , nor the whole Word of God , but that unwritten Traditions are the other part , c c Bellar. ib. l. 3. c. 10. Grets●r . de Agnosc . Script . cap. 7. Col. 1908. Valent. Tom. 3. Disp. 1. qu. 1. punct. 7. §. 23. But say plainly that the judgement of the present Church is Gods word . vid. Melcb . Ganum . li. 5. c. 5. q. 3. Turnebull . in Tetragonis . cap. 7. & 8. and the judgement of the present Church is Gods Word after a sort ( as they speak ) That the Scripture hath its Authority in it self from God the prime truth , but quoad nos , as to us , it hath its Authority from the Church : That it is the act of Tradition or the unwritten part of Gods word to tell us that the Scriptures are the word of God , or a Divine Revelation . d d Vid. Malderum 22 aequ . 1. Art. 1. Sect. 6. Stanlet . princip. d●ct . li. 8. c. 21. & li. 9. c. 3. respons. ad arg. 5. Et in controv . rel. Contr. 4. q. 3. are . 2. & Denfens . author . Eccles. l. 3. c. 16. §. 4. & Turnebull . Tetragonism . c. 6. § 2.3 . & ● 8. §. 3. Bellarm. de Verbo Dei l. 4. c. 4. Gretser Defens . istius capi●is col . 1575 , 1576 , & Defens . c. 10. de Verbo Col. 1451. sed è contra nelius scribentem leg . Peter . de Alliaco insent . 1. qu. 1. art. 3. litera E E. & Lyranum Prolog . in Biblia . And that it is the Office of the Church to judge both of this Tradition and the Scripture ; as also to decide all controversies in Religion , and to judge which is the true sence of Scripture : and that this Church must be one only , visible , infallible , authorized thus to judge by Christ ; and this is onely the Romane Church .

Thus far the most of them seem to be agreed . But when these mysteries of iniquity come to be opened , they fall all to pieces . For 1. Sometimes they say that the judgement of the Church is Gods word after a sort : sometime that it is some middle thing between a Testimony Divine and Humane . e e Vid Turnebull . Totragen . c. 2. a § 5. ad sinem . suarez . Disput. 3. de fide sect. 2. § ▪ 5 & Disput. 2 sect. 4 § 5. & Disput. 3. sect. 12. § 4. Bellarm. li 3. de Verbo Dei c. 10. ad arg ●3 . & 15. Et Lib. de libero Arbitr . c. 3. § At Catholici . Gretser● in Defens . c. 10. li. 3. de Verbo col. 1437. estius in sent. 3. dist. 23. § 4. Malde● . in 22ae Thom. q. 1. a 1. sec. 3. 2. And what the formal object of faith is , they are not all of a mind : whether it be only the Prime Truth , or whether the Revelation of the Material object be any part of the formal : ( But I confess this controversie is more verbal then real . ) 3. f f Lege Riveti nostri Isagog . sac . script . cap. 20. suarez Disp. de fide 5. sect. 7. § ●1 . And what place here to assign to the Testimony of the Church , they are not agreed neither . g g Vid. valent . Tom. 3. Disp. 1. qu. 1. punct. 7. § 12. Bellarm. l. 2. de Sacram. in Genere cap. 25. suarez Disput. 5. de fide sect. 5. §. 5. sed contra Melius Waldenfis li. 2. Doctrin . fid. an t . c. 19. operum . Tom. 1. &c. 27. sic Alphons . a Cast. adu . haeres . li. 1. c. 2. Melch. Can lib. c. 3. & li. 2. c. 1 . ●etr . Trigos . in summam Bonaven . qu. 1. ar. 3. suarez ( contra scipsum ) de fide . Disp. 5. §. 3. Bellarm. ( contra scipsum ) generalia controv . fine . vid. & Durand . in 3. sent. dist. 24. qu. 1. & ●erson . de vita spirit . an . lect. 2. Coroll. 7. & è contr F●ann . Driedon . li. 1. de Eccl. Script . & dogmat . cap. 1. & Waldens. li. 2. doctr. fid. antiq. cap. 19. & 20. Melch. Canum Loc. Theol. l. 2. c. 8. p. 26 , 27. &c. 4. Especially they are divided in the main , viz. what this Church is which is the infallible Judge , and into whose judgement their faith is resolved , whether it be the present Church or the former Church ? Whether it be the Pope only ( at least in case of difference between him and his Council ) or whether it be a General Council though the Pope agree not ( as the French and Venetians say ? ) h h Vid. Mel. Canum . ib. pag. 27. 28 , &c. contra . Th. Waldensem . Yea whether it be the Clergy only , or the Laity also that are this Church ? Nay some of them plead Universal Tradition ( as Holden , White , Vane , and divers other Englishmen of late ) as if that were the same with the Romane Tradition , or as if it were the point in controversie between us and them . And ordinarily they use to tell us of [ All the Church ] and [ All the Christian world ] and to mouth it in such swelling words , that the simple hearer would little think that by [ All the Church ] they meant but one man , or at the utmost , him and his factious Clergy ? So also they are disagreed among themselves whether i i Melc . Canus Loc. com . l. 5. c. 5. fol. 162.163 . the Bishops in a General Council are Judges with the Pope or onely the Popes Counsellors ? Yea or what a General Council is ? Though they all agree that it is not necessary that it be out of all the Christian world , much less the Bishops of all Churches , but onely some of those that adhere to the Pope of Rome , yet they agree not whether it must be freely elected by all the Bishops of the Romish faction , or onely so many and of such Countries as the Pope shall choose ? and whether the major part of the Council must concur with the Pope , or the Pope and the Minor part may not serve turn k k Mel. Canus l. 5. c. 5. fol. 164. 5. So also they are exceedingly disagreed about the nature and extent or pretended infallibility of the Church of the Pope in judging . l l Staplet . relect. contr. 4. qu. 2. in ●xpl . art. ●otab . 2.3.4 . Valen●a Tom. 3. Disput. 1. punct. 1. §. 5. Some say that the Church judgeth de mediis discursive , sed de conclusione per doctrinam propheticam & Divinam : And so these men may affirm ( agreeably to this principle ) that the Popes Definitions are part of the holy Canonical Scripture , as Melchior Canus affirmeth he heard a most excellent Divine confess , and citeth Gratian and Innocent also as of the same mind . m m Canus l. 5. c. 5. fol. 164 , 165. And thus all the most wicked Popes are made Prophets , and speak by inspiration of the Holy Ghost . But others of them n n Mel. Canu● ubi sup. & l. 2. c. 7. f 27. Bellarm. de Concil l. 2. c. 2. suarez T●sput 8. de fide sect. 5. §. 4. Alphons . a Castro adv haeres l. 1. c. 8 Waldensis doctr. fid. l. 2. c. 22. & 23. Becanus Tra●● . ●● fide c. 2. qu. 5. §. 4. do deny this : Though yet they know not how it is that the Pope is infallible , without declaring themselves Enthusiasts . Also ( though saith Bellarm. l. 4. de Pontif. c. 2. all yield that the Pope may personally erre through Ignorance , yet ) they are disagreed among themselves whether he may be a Hereticke . Some o o Pighius li. 4. Hier. Eccles. c. 8. Bellarm. li. 4. de Pont. c. 6. say he may not , and others that its most pious and probable to think he may not : Others reject that as false p p Staplet . contr. 3. qu. 4. concl . 2. Canus li. 6. c. 8. and say he may : And one would think it should have been out of question by long experience before this time ? And Bellarmine confesseth that three General Councils did believe that the Pope might be a Hereticke ( ubi sup. c. 11. ) some say q q St●plet . Contr. 3. qu. 4 Concl. 2. Rhimensin Luc. 22.31 . Hart. in Conf. with Reignolds c. 7. sect. 3. that when the Pope is consulted and giveth his judgement in matters of faith , he cannot err ( though in matters of fact he may ) and that he is Infallible in his Courts and Councils , though not as a private Doctor . Others r r Bellarm. l. 4. de Pontif c. 3. § ● . suarez de fide Disp. 5. sect. 8. § 4. Valent. Tom. 3. Disp. 1. qu. 1. p 7. § 40. say that he cannot err when he intendeth to binde the whole Church to receive his sentence , or when he teacheth the whole Church . s s Turrecremat . li. 2. summ . de Eccles. c. 12. & li. 4 part. 2. c. 16. Valent. ubi sup. c●l . 233 Others say that the Pope may err even defining in Council ; but not in errors manifest to the Church but onely in new or not manifest points . t t Vid Alphon. a Castro li. 1 adv. haeres . c. 4. Others come yet neerer the matter , and tell us merrily , that the Pope cannot so err in judgement about matter of Faith , because when he first erreth thus , he ceaseth to be Pope : but this is a hard conclusion in the eyes of their brethren .

The like disagreements there are among them about the Infallibility of a General Council : some will make it the proper seat of Infallibility , and say that the Pope cannot err if he be guided by the Council ; else he may : Others u u Bellarm. de Concil. li. 2. cap. 2. Valent. Tom. 3. Disp. 1. qu 1. p●●ct . 7. § 45. Col. 274 suarez . Tract . de fide Disp. 7. sect. 7. §. 10. Bellarm. de Concil. li. 2. cap. 1● . say that a Generall Council may err , if it be not confirmed by the Pope , yea though the Popes Legates did consent : or if they do not follow the Popes instructions ; But that they cannot erre if they follow them , or be confirmed by him . So Bellarmine , Canus and the late champions . And if the Pope and Council differ ( as they have shrewdly done , when Councils have deposed Popes for heresie and wickedness ) some x x Turrecrem . summ . li. 2. c. 64. Andrad . defens . fid. Trident. li. 1. pag. 86. say , that we may more safely follow the Council then the Pope . But others y y Vid. Bellarm. de Pontif. li. 4. cap. 3. Staplet . Con. 6. qu. 3. art. 5. Valentia . Tom. 3. Disp. 1. qu. 1. punct. 7. §. 45. So Canus and others . say the clean contrary , and place the Infallibility in the Pope onely , and make it his work to reclaim the Council .

Though they are thus all in pieces among themselves even about these their fundamentals , yet is it the custome of their deceitful Writers , to make the simple people believe that they are all agreed , and to tell them that they have the [ Consent of the Universal Church , and of all the Christian world , and they have Universal Tradition ] &c. that by the noise of these big words , they may do that which they cannot do by argument . Thus Doctor Vane their late proselite , and divers others do in their writings overlooking all their own disagreements , and passing on as confidently in their boasts of the [ Universal Consent ] as if they were either such Novices as understand not their own Religion , or such hardened seducers , as are not willing that others should understand it .

Here are in this our Question contained three of the greatest controversies between us and the Papists . 1. Whether it belong to the Pope or Romane Church , to be the Judge of Faith and Scriptures to all the world ? 2. Whether the Pope or his Clergy be in●llible in judging of matters of Faith ? 3. Whether our Faith must be resolved into this infallible judgement of theirs ? Our intent in this present Dispute is to deal most with the second , yet so as it is connexed with the other two ; and therefore shall take them in on the by , but say less to them distinctly ; and the rather because there is so much said already by our Divines , as all the Papists on earth will never be able solidly to answer : To let pass all those beyond Sea that have effectually confounded them , we have Brittans enough to hold them perpetual work : as Jewell , Reignolds , Whitaker , White , Field , Vsher , Camero , Baronius , Davenant , Chillingworth ( to whom they have lately lost their cause , by shewing in a vain and frivolous Reply , how little they have to say against him ) with many more , who will either remain unanswered , or the answers will be worse to the adversaries cause , then silence it self ; which we have sufficient ground already to foretell .

As to the first of these controversies ( to dispatch it in short ) as we distinguish between Judicium Descretionis , Directionis , & Decisionis , a Judgement of Discretion , of Direction , and of Decision , so we kn●w that it is onely the later that properly denominateth a Judge in the publike and ordinary sence . Take our doctrine in these few Propositions .

1. We say that every Christian hath a judgement of Discretion , to know that the Christian Faith is true , and Scripture is the word of God : Or else he were no Christian , or faith were not an act of judgement , or Reason , but a bruitish thing . This therefore we confess the Pope either hath or ought to have .

2. Every Pastor of the Church hath a judgement of direction ; that is , it belongeth to him by office to be a Director of the people , and to teach those the Christian Faith , that yet receive it not , and to confirm those in it that have received it : And they ought to have abilities for the work of this office . If therefore the Pope were a true Pastor , Bishop , or Preacher , this power we should confess to be in him , as in others .

3. It belongeth to these Teachers also , to be specially careful to preserve the sacred Scriptures from corruption , and to deliver them down to posterity in the purity as they receive them , and to translate them into known tongues , that the people may understand them . Though others also have a part in this work , yet the Pastors of the Church have by Office the chiefest part .

4. It belongeth to them also to be witnesses and informers of the people , how themselves did receive the Faith and Scripture from their Ancestors , and to shew them how it came down to our hands by certaine Infallible Tradition from Age to Age.

5. The Church guides they are both Preservers of the Scripture , Witnesses of the Tradition , and Te●chers of the truth , and have such a power of judging a● belongeth to all these three .

6. In these acts of their office they ought to be Believed , and that on a threefold account . 1. Because of the evidence which they shew to prove the truth of their Assertions : Though strictly this is rather to be called Learning , and so Knowing , then Believing : and is common to Teachers with any others that shew the same proofs ; Yet it being supposed that ordinarily they have much more Knowledge in the things which they teach then other men have , therefore we may well say that it more belongeth to them to convince , and more efficacy is in their Teaching because of their proofs , and better entertainment is due to their Teaching . 2. Such a Belief also is due to them as all men should have in their own prosession , wherein they have long studyed and laid out their time and labor , and wherein they are commonly known to excell other men . Every man that is less studyed in Law , Physicke , or any other Science or Art is bound in reason to give some credit to Lawyers , Physicians and others that Study and Practice those Arts. This is but a humane Faith . 3. Besides this credit before mentioned which Infidells themselves may give to the Ministers of the Gospel ( according to their capacities ) there is a further credit due to them from professed believers , and that is , as they are officers authorized by Christ , and have a promise of his assistance to the end of the world : which though it make them not infallible in all matters of Faith , yet doth it assure them of a more than common help of Christ , if they are his servants indeed .

7. There is more of this kind of Belief due to many Pastors ( caeteris paribus ) than to one , and to the whole Church than to any part .

8. The credit of the Church or any Pastors in witnessing to the faith , dependeth on their competency for such a Testimony ; which consisteth in their sufficency or Ability , and their fidelity , which they are rationally to manifest that it may gaine credit with others .

9. In things which God hath left undetermined in Scriptures and committed to the Governors of the Church to determine of , they have a Decisive Power . 1. For the Time or Place , or the like circumstances of Gods worship they are necessary in General ( viz. there must be some Time , Place , &c. ) but not in specie ( such a Time , such a Place is not necessary , unless it be some that God hath already made choice of ) Here the Church guides must Authoritatively Determine , whereupon the people are obliged to obey ; unless in some extraordinary cases , where the Determination is so perverse and contrary to the General Rules which Scripture hath given for it , that it would overthrow the substance of the duty it self . 2. And in case of Church censures , when any man is accused to deserve Excommunication ; the Church Governors have a Judicial Decisive Power , as to those ends , though not to make a man guilty that is Innocent , yet to oblige the people to avoid Communion with the person whom they Excommunicate ; except in such palpable mal-administration and evident contradiction of the word of God , which may nullifie their sentence ( for even here their Power is not unlimited . )

10. No man or company of men ( much less the Pope ) hath a proper Decisive Judicial Power in matter of Christian faith , or whether the Scripture , or any part of it ; be the word of God or not ?

For the opening of this , understand what we mean by a Decisive Judicial Power : to wit , such as a Judge hath in a controverted cause , where the Plaintiff and Defendant must stand to his Judgement , be it right or wrong : so that though the sentence be not just , yet must it be Decisive and obligatory : so that he hath Power to Judge in utramque partem , on either side , and the judgement must be valid . Such a Decisive power no creature hath in these cases that we have now in hand .

Where let it be still remembred , that it is not the name , but the Thing that we contend about . If they will call that a Decisive Judicial Power , which is so limited to one part , or side , that it shall not be valid or obligatory to the subject if it erre , or go on the other side , concerning which all men have a judgement of Discerning granted them by God ( so far as they are able to Discerne , they have leave and authority ) then we easily grant , that every Pastor of the Church is thus far the Judge of Faith and Scripture : That is , if any man doubt whether the Scripture be the Word of God , and ask a Preacher or Bishop , he hath Power to say , Yea : but not to say No : But this is no Judicial Power : but a Teaching and Witnessing act : For the people are bound to disobey them , if they erre , and therefore bound to ●ry whether they erre or not ; and not to follow their judgement further then it is right and sound : therefore they have no deciding Judicial Power : which I prove thus .

Arg. 1. If the Pope or any other had such a Judicial Decisive Power , then might they oblige us to Believe that there is no God , that Christ is not the Redeemer , that Scripture is not the word of God , and so they might cast Faith and Scripture out of the Church : But this is false and abominable ; therefore the Pope hath no such Power .

For the consequence , it is manifest , supposing that the Pope should give judgement against God , Christ , or Scripture , then men must ( by this Doctrine ) be bound to obey it , and forsake God , Christ , and Scripture for the Pope .

Whereunto add a second Argument from a further absurdity : Then either such as renounce God , Christ , and Scripture may be saved , or else God bindeth men ( by the Pope ) to renounce him and the faith to their own damnation . But both these consequents are false and abominable : Therefore .

I know they will here reply , that we must not suppose that the Pope can err in his judgement , and therefore being infallible , he will certainly make no such false Decision . To which I say , 1. Why then should it be said that God hath given Authority to decide in utramque partem , on either side ? Doth God give a man Authority to do that , which he hath promised him and all others that he shal never do : But he will keep him from ? This is to make Gods Commissions to be impious , and his Grace to the Pope onely to hinder the execution of them in an impious way . Who dare say openly that [ God hath given authority to the Pope to judge decisively and obligatorily that there is no God , Christ or Scripture , though he will graciously hinder him from so doing ] If the Papists say that they do not say so , I would know then what their judicial power in these matters is ? Is it onely this , that the Pope hath Power to judge , that there is a God , a Christ , a word of God ? &c. Why so have others as well he ? If they shall dare to say , that matters of faith are not such to us ( that is , we be not obliged to believe them ) till the Pope have determined them : I answer , What! is no Heathen or Infidel bound to Believe that there is a God , a Christ , a Scripture , till the Pope tell him so ? Shall all Infidels be excused in judgement , that had the Gospel preached to them by any other Christians except the Pope or others in his name ? Is no man on earth bound to believe in Christ that knows not the Popes mind in the matter ? And must men believe in the Pope before they believe in Christ ? And must they believe in Christ onely because the Pope bids them , or because they first believe in the Pope ? I do not think that either the eares of Good Christians , or rational Infidels will relish such doctrine . And what is this Believing in the Pope that must go first ? Is it not to take him to be Saint Peters successor , and that Saint Peter was Christs Disciple , who had a promise of infallibility , which is now devolved to the Pope : And must this be believed before men believe in Christ ? We must believe what he promised , and who were his servants , before we believe in himself ? This is a ground too like the Popish superstructure .

But perhaps , they may in time grow moderate , and tell us , that it is not in all points of faith , but some onely that the Pope is made Judge : He may not judge about Christ himself ▪ whether he be the Messiah , but about his Doctrines ?

Answ. 1. By what warrant will they distinguish , and claim power in one , which they have not in the other ? 2. Is it all , or some of Christs Doctrines that the Pope is Judge of ? If all , then it seems he must judge whether he that Believeth shall be saved , or not ? Whether we should love God or hate him ? Whether we should seek first Gods Kingdom , or worldly vanities ? And whether a man should commit Murder , Adultery , Theft , &c. or not ? May he decide these on either part ? or on one only , as others may do ? May he judge that there is no Judgement , Resurrection , or life Everlasting ? I know they dare not say it : If it be but some of Christs Doctrines that the Pope is made Judge of , then let them tell us which it is , and give us their proofs , and they shall hear more from us . Let it be the smallest point they will imagine ; Hath God given power to the Pope to contradict him and give him the Lye ? If God saith , It is so : May the Pope say , It is not so ? What if the Pope say that the Gospel of Mathew or Luke or John is no part of Gods word ? Must we believe him ? What if he tell as that the world was made in five days and not in six ? Must we believe him ? 2. If they yet flye to his infallibility , I shall speak more to that anon ( though the former answer may well suffice them ) But to another .

Arg. 3. The Scripture is Gods Law . The Pope is not the Judge of Gods Law : therefore he is not the Judge of Scripture .

The Major I hope no Christian will deny . The Minor is evident from the nature and use of Laws and Judgements : The Law is Norma judicis in judicando : the Judges Rule : He is not to Judge the Law , but the cause of particular persons by that Law . Indeed as to the right guidance of his own act of Decisive Judging the cause of the person , he hath a Judgement of discretion concerning the sence of the Law ; but , as if he Judge upon a false exposition of the Law , the party may appeal from him , so ( which concerneth our present case ) he hath no power to Judge the Law it self : As he cannot make a plaine text to bear a false sence , or oblige the subject to believe a false sence : so in a doubtful case it belongeth to the Law-givers onely to interpret their own Laws . Onely a sentence of a lawful Judge grounded upon a false exposition , may sometime be executed among men where justice cannot be had : but no man is bound to Believe that it is true and just : James tells men what it is to pretend to be a Judge of the Law , in stead of doing it , and leaving that to the one Law-giver , Jam. 4 , 11 , 12. And if the Pope be made Judge of every controverted difficulty in Scripture , then why is he so unfaithful that he hath not hitherto written us an infallible Commentary on it ? and why doth he not determine all the controversies about it , that among his own followers remain yet undetermined ? ( of which more anon . )

Arg. 4. If the Pope be made the Deciding Judge of Faith and Scripture , then either of the plain points , or onely of the controverted difficulties , or of both : But not of the plain points : For 1. That which is evident and not under controversie , needs no Judge : To the ignorant there may be need of an interpreter and teacher , but not of a Judge : 2. Such texts of Scripture do oblige us whether the Pope Judge of them or not : Therefore there is no need of his judgement that they may oblige us . Who dare think that a man is not bound by the word of God , to love God above all , to believe the Resurrection of Christ , and of us , to love Christs disciples , &c. unless he know the judgement of the Pope . Do not all Laws of the Land oblige the subject upon the bare legislation and promulgation , before the Judge meddle with them ? If they did not first oblige us to duty , there were no place for the Judge to sentence us to punishment for disobedience . It is the Legislator that oblige●h to duty by his Law , proclaimed or any way published in his name ▪ But judgement interveneth to oblige men to punishment , and bring it to execution , and to help them to that which by the Law is their right . If therefore it be evident in the very nature of Laws and judgement , that we are obliged by Gods Laws to Believe and obey them in the several particulars before any judgement of the Popes ; it is then but dotage to talk of a Judicial Decisive power in the Pope to oblige men to Believe those same doctrines , and obey those same precepts of the word . And for the dark and controverted texts . 1. Those are not of that moment , as that mens salvation must lye upon the exposition of them . The points absolutely necessary to salvation are plainly delivered . 2. Obscurity shews the need of a Teacher , but not of a Judge . At least its plain , that when any Teacher shall remove the obscurity , those texts oblige us as well as the plainest . 3. As I said , If the Pope be Judge of all difficult controverted texts , he is an unfaithful Judge that will not expound them to us , and decide so many controversies as yet depend . What good will it be to the Church to have such a Judge of difficult controverted texts of Scripture , as in the consciousness of his ignorance dare not give us his judgement ? but hath left them undecided these fifteen hundred years ? This dumbe Oracle that hath eyes and sees not , and a mouth but speaks not , is not a fit foundation for the Churches Faith . 5. Where God calleth men to Office and Power , he accomplisheth or fitteth them in some measure for the performance of it : but God hath not fitted all Popes , no nor any , to Jugde Decisively of all controverted difficultyes in Scripture , and Religion : Therefore he hath not made them Judges of them . The Minor shall be further proved anon : Many Popes have been ignorant , and unlearned ; many Heretickes , unfit to decide all such controversies ; and they have shewed their unfitnesse by their non performance or ill performance .

The great Objection of the Papists is this .

Obj. 1. What! Shall every one be the Judge of Scripture ? and take it in what sence he please ? shall every unlearned man or woman expound it according to their own fancies ? then we shall have variety of expositions . Whether is it fitter for the Church or every simple fellow to be Judge ?

Answ. 1. Neither ? Hath God made subjects to be Judges of his Lawes by which they must live , and by which they must be judged ? Neither they nor your Pope , must be Judges of the Lawes , in a proper sence , but obeyers of it .

2. We say not that the people should expound the Scriptures as Teachers of others ( unless in their own callings , as to the children servants , &c. when they are able ) This we reserve to the Officers of the Church .

3. Nor do we say that any people must expound Scripture according to their own fancies or mis-guided conceits , but according to the true meaning of them . 4. Nor should they in difficult cases which are past their understandings , presume of their own wit to know the right meaning ; but have recourse to the Teachers that God hath set over them , that so by their help they may learn the meaning of that word which they understood not . 5. And if their Teachers be singular , or give them just cause to suspect their skill or fidelity , they have more reason to regard the Judgement of the Judicious , then of the ignorant , and of the whole Church then of any one or few ; so far as the credit or authority of men , must support a learner while he is a learning . 6. But what ! Is it indeed such a monstrous heretical conceit in the eyes of a Papist , that every Christian should have a Judicium discretionis , a Judgement of discerning to perceive and discern which is truth and which is falshood ? Good Lord , whether will the heat of contention carry men ? Why if they must not have this discerning judgement . 1. Then God doth bind them all to be fools , and ignorant . 2. And then Religion and the Christian Faith , are the endowments of bruits that know not what they hold or do , and not of Reasonable men . 3. Or else they that will be Christians must have no Faith or Knowledge ; which is a contradiction . Is not Faith an act of discretion ? Must not he that believeth the Resurrection , and Everlasting Life , believe them with his own understanding ? And doth he not in believing them , Judge them to be True , and Judge the contrary doctrine to be false ? 4. Why will you read , or preach Scripture to the people , if you would not have them receive it , by a judgment of discerning ? would you not have their judgment discern the Truth of what God hath written , or the Priest shal preach to them ? 5. Doubtless you will allow them a judgement of Discretion , about the Popes Decrees and Canons , and your own Determinations . How can they believe you , if they do not by judgement discern the things you say to be true ? And why will you not allow them the like towards God and his Word ? Will you say , It is their duty to believe the Pope , and their sin to believe God ? Or it s their duty to understand the Popes Laws , and their sin to understand Gods Laws ? Why ? what do you say less when you yield them a judgement of discretion as to the Pope or Church , and deny it in Respect to the Word of God ? If you say that they will misunderstand the Scripture ▪ I ans. 1. So will the Pope and the best and wisest man on earth in some part : because while we are here , we know but in part . 2. Their error is their sin : But doth it follow that they may not see at all , for fear of missing their way ? Must they put out their eyes , and be led by the Pope , for fear of erring ? Must they not know or labor to know , for fear of mistaking ? Will any Master take this well of his servant , to put out his eyes , or do nothing , for fear of doing his work amiss ? Or refuse to go his journey , lest he miss the way ? Then we must not judge of the Popes Laws neither , and consequently , not judge them to be true , for fear of erring in our judgement . When you prove that the Church of Rome is the true Church , would you not have the people judge of your proof for fear of erring ? This is even to make beasts of Christians . 3. What are Teachers for , but to guide them , and help them to understand . If you are afraid lest they should erre , be the more diligent in instructing them . But this is the difference between the work of a Popish Teacher and ours . They make it their work to put out mens eyes that they may have the loading of them , because they are troubled with an imperfection in their sight , and therefore will erre if those imperfect eyes be left in their heads : we make it our work , by all means we can use , to cure their eye sight that they may be able to see themselves , in the mean time advising them , while their eyes are under cure , not wholly to trust to them , but to use the helpe of others , to shew them the way , and to tell them of dangers . The Protestant will set his Childe to School that he may learn to know , that which through childishness he knows not : But according to the Popish way , we should forbid them all books or learning , lest they misunderstand them ; and let them never know any thing lest they know amiss . The next step , is to send them to Bedlam . The Apostle would have men have their senses exercised to discern Good and Evill , Heb. 5.14 . The Papists would not have the people to have a judgement of Discerning : If they must not Discern , they must be ignorant : When God so much requireth and extolleth knowledge .

But I 'le leave this Question , and pass to the next .

Qu. 2. Whether the Pope be Infallible , in this Decisive judgement which he pretendeth to ? Which we deny .

But before I come to give the reasons of our denyal , I shall further declare our judgement about the whole matter of the Churches Infallibility , that the true state of the controversie may appear .

And 1. We easily grant that as there is an Objective certainty in all points of the Christian Faith , and in the very truth , so the Pope is infallible while he believeth and declareth nothing but the truth . He and every man else that speaks according to Gods word , is so far infallible , because that word is infallible . They need not thank us for this concession .

2. We grant that neither the Church of Rome ( if a true Church ) nor any other particular true Church can erre in fundamentals , or in points of absolute necessity to salvation , in sensu composito ; that is , while they remain a true Church , they never deny the essentials of a true Church : For if they once deny the essentials , they do eo nomine cease to be a true Church .

3. We grant that Christs universal Church shall never deny any one point of Faith essential to Christianity , or absolutely necessary to Salvation : For then Christ should have no true Church on earth ( when the whole should thus Apostatize or turn Hereticks ) and all the then present world should be damned .

4. The Church as Reasonable sensible men are infallible in many matters of fact , of which they may give us unerring reports : as that , This Bible was delivered as the word of God by their Ancestors , as they might testifie it was delivered to them : and that this Creed or sum of Faith also was thus delivered in the words now in use , &c.

5. There is an infallible certainty in the evidence which the former Church hath left , and the present Church possesset● to prove that this same Scripture was written by the Apostles and Evangelists , and was delivered to the first Churches , and from them , down to us : and that multitudes of miracles were wrought for the confirmation of the Doctrine contained in them .

6. An illiterate person may have an infallible certainty that all points necessary to salvation are expressed in certain translations of Scripture , and that so far , and much further , they are truely translated , and that such things there are in that Book as the Readers affirm there to be , though himself cannot read them . For all this is infallibly discovered by common consent , and especially of adversaries : When all men that are certainly able to judge , and are honest and impartial , affirm it without doubt , and those that would gladly contradict it , as being by their interests carryed thereto , yet cannot do it , or at least not with any considerable pretence : This gives men as infallible a proof , as the common testimony of men doth , that there is such a City as Rome or Paris which we never saw .

7. And we further grant , all that Teaching and Witnessing power to the Church officers , which was expressed under the last Question ; and all that dueness of Belief and obedience to them , which was there asserted . So much for our Concessions .

But we deny , 1. That either the Pope of Rome , or a General Council are naturally or supernaturally priviledged from all error in matters of Gods revealed will , or that they are priviledged from the danger or possibility of teaching these their errors to others , even to the Church . 2. We deny that the Pope or the Romane Clergy are secured from the danger of Apostasie or Heresie : They may fall so far as to deny the Fundamentals or Essentials of Christianity : though the Universal Church shall never so fall away .

We shall first speak of the Popes Infallibility , and afterward of a General Council , that we may speak to the several parties among the divided Papists herein .

And against the Popes Infallibility we thus argue .

Argu. 1 , They that lay claim to this Infallibility , do give us no proof of their claim : Therefore they cannot expect that we should believe them . The proof lyeth on the pretenders , who give us no proof .

If they can prove it , it must be either by his natural perfection , or some supernatural endowment , by which the Pope must be more Infallible then other men : The former they pretend not to ( and no wonder ) The later they do pretend to : But , if God supernaturally have ascertained all Popes of an Infallibility in matters of Faith , then he hath done this either by his written Word , or by unwritten Tradition , or both : by which it must to us be proved : But he hath done it neither by his written Word , nor by unwritten Tradition . For Tradition they must shew it us , either in certain monuments of the Church which are in stead of writing ( but that they cannot do ) or else in the mindes of all the members of the Church . For that which concerneth all their Salvation , must be delivered to all : But this they cannot shew : Nay we shew them the contrary : that is , the greatest part of the present Church on earth denying any such Tradition : and the most approved Writers of the former Ages , telling us the contrary , and all taking the Pope as fallible , so that they cannot give us one line of any one Father or Council for many hundred years after Christ , that ever had such a conceit as theirs . And if they will pretend to a private Tradition which none but themselves have received and are entrusted with , and so make themselves the absolute Judges of their own cause , and give us no proof but their own words , we will believe them as fast as we can , but we must desire them not to be too hasty with us .

And for the written Word they cannot thence prove a grant of their infallibility . 1. Because they tell us that we cannot know the Scripture to be the Word of God , but by their infallible judgement : Therefore we must know their judgement to be infallible first ; and therefore it is first to be known some other way , and not by Scripture . Indeed here they have long tired themselves in their Circle , which some of them would hide by vain words if they could , but Holden and others of them are forced to confess it , and that they have no way out but by retiring to the universal testimony or tradition as an infallible evidence , in stead of the Authoritative judgement , or infallibility , or private Tradition of the Church of Rome . They tell us that we cannot know the Scripture to be the Word of God , but by the infallible judgement of their Church ( And that is in the Issue of the Pope ) And when we call for the proof of that infallibility , they refer us to the Scripture . So that this is plainly to say that neither Scripture nor Papal infallibility can be proved ; and so to forsake both Popery and Christianity : Then it seems , no man can know the Popes infallibility but upon the authority of Gods word , which cannot it self be known till that infallibility be known . It must be Gods Grant , written or unwritten that must prove their infallibility : But that word or Grant , written or unwritten , cannot be known to be of God , till we first know their Authority to judge , and infallibility in judging : It evidently follows therefore according to them , that neither one nor the other can be known , because no one of them can be known till the other be first known .

But 2 If we could know the Scripture to be Gods Word , before we know their infallibility in judging , yet we cannot know the true sence of that Scripture ( as they confidently tell us ) first : Well then , I am one that doubt of the Popes infallibility , and demand his proof : Bellarmine turns me to Luk. 22. I have prayed that thy faith fail not . I must know how I shall be sure that this is the meaning of that Scripture ( which is so little apparent to an ordinary eye ) He hath nothing to tell me , but that the Church saith so : And how shall I know that the Church is in the right ? Why because it cannot erre . And how shall I know that ? Why by this Text. And so they are amazed in another Circle , past recovery . For they expresly and frequently tell us , that the Scripture is no good evidence but when it is rightly expounded : and that no exposition is right but that which is given by the infallible judgement of the Church ; and so the Popes infallibility cannot be known till the true meaning of Texts be known that prove it ; and the true meaning of those Texts cannot be known , till their infallible judgement be first known : What follows therefore , but that neither of them can be known ? The true product of Popery . This is the usual success of false arguing for a good cause ; to overthrow both the cause and argument : so do the Papists as much as in them lyes overthrow both Christs Doctrine and their own .

3. But let us examine the particular proofs from Scripture that they bring His first proof ( lib. 4. de Pontif. cap. 3. ) is from Luk. 22. [ Simon , Simon , Satan hath desired , &c. but I have prayed for thee that thy faith faile not , and when thou art converted , strengthen thy brethren . ] Doth this Text say that the Pope of Rome is infallible ? Yes , if you will take Bellarmines word . And first he tells us that ( among themselves ) there are three several expositions given of this Text ; and it is but one of the three that will serve their turn : Good still ! And how shall we know that this one which Bellarmine hit on , is the right ? Let any impartial man peruse his reasons , and make his best of them : For indeed there is no reason in them . But on the contrary I shall presume to tell them , why I suppose that this Text doth not talk of the Popes infallibility . 1. Because here is never a word either of the Pope , or of Rome , or of Infallibility . 2. Because the thing here promised is expresly restrained to one individual person , Simon . 3. The thing here promised was about Peters personal Faith , and not about infallibility in judging . For 1. In that respect that Satan desired to sift Peter , in that respect Christ promised the not failing of his Faith . But it was in respect of his personal Faith , and not his Cathedral judgement that Satan is here said to desire to sift him : Therefore , &c. 2. It is expresly said to be [ his Faith ] that should not fail : But his Faith , is not his tongue or Cathedral sentence : words be not Faith .

4. It is not all degree of infallibility or not failing that Christ prayeth for to Simon : but he onely prayeth that his Faith may not be overcome , foreseeing that it would shake , and that he would deny him : So that this is no promise of perfect Infallibility to Peter himself as appeared by the issue .

5. Peter himself was to be converted from some failing : Therefore he was not exempted from it : And the case here in hand is such as that conversion had respect to . Therefore it was not , that he should not fail in Cathedral Determinations ; for he was not converted from such . Bellarmine here most immodestly would intimate that the text speaks not of Peters conversion from any sin , but of his turning to his brethren to speak to them ; as if it were [ When thou turnest thee to speak to thy Brethren , strengthen them ] Nothing but the Popes infallibility , or the gross fallibility of common reason , could make a learned man think that this is the sence of the Text.

6. The Papists pretend that here is somewhat promised to Peter which the rest of the Apostles were not partakers of : But that is not so : For , if it were ( as it was ) that he should not Apostatize : the same was given to them all ( except Judas ) If it had been that he should be infallible in teaching the Church , so were the rest too as well as he . The reason therefore of mentioning Peter in particular , was because Christ foresaw the temptations and lamentable fall of Peter in denying Christ with cursing and oathes : from which he had need of a special conversion , that God might not forsake him and give him up to a totall failing of his Faith .

7. Two things , saith Bellarmine , are here obtained for Peter : See Bannes in 2.2 . q. 1. a. 10. p. 149. restraining the text to Peter alone . The one is that he himself should never lose the faith , nor fall as to his faith . The second is , that he as Pope should never teach any thing contrary to faith , or that none should ever be found in his seat that should so do : Of which priviledges ( saith he ) perhaps the first did not descend to his successors , but doubtless the last did .

But note here what a pass this learned Cardinal hath brought his great cause to . 1. The text speaks but of one thing and not of two : Faith is one thing , and Cathedral determination is another . Doth Christ mean both , when he names but one ? Expresly it is onely the first priviledge that he promiseth Peter , and saith not a word of the later : It was his Heart , and not his tongue that was the seat of faith , and that Christ establisheth : which is also evident by the issue : for sure his tongue failed by speaking against the faith , when he curst and swore that he knew not the man . 2. Bellarmine confesseth that this priviledge [ that his own faith should not fail ] extendeth not perhaps to the Popes : so that for all this their faith may fail : If so 1. Then the onely priviledge mentioned in the Text extendeth not to them : For it speaks of no more : The text promiseth them nothing to the Pope , but what it never promised to Peter . 2. And if it did promise both priviledges to Peter ( that neither Faith nor tongue should fail ) how can Bellarmine prove that one part belongeth to the Pope , when he confesseth the other doth not ? The Text speaks but to the same person , and not in one half to one , and in the other half to others . I may well argue therefore in this manner : To whomsoever Christ here promiseth that his faith shall not fail , to him onely doth he speak in this text : But he promiseth onely to Peter here that his faith should not fail , therefore it is onely Peter and not the Popes that he speaks of . The Major is clear according to the intelligible sence of the words ( and Bellarmine hath not yet proved a mystical sence ) The Minor is confessed by himself .

Lastly Bellarmine saith ( de verbo dei li. 3. c. 3. ) that [ Onely out of the litteral sence of Scripture , effectual arguments are to be fetched ] But this great argument of his for the Popes infallibility is not fetcht out of the literal sence of Scripture : therefore by his own confession it is uneffectual and unjust .

The second Text which he cites to this use , is Mat. 16. [ On this Rock I will build my Church , and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ] A double argument he would fetch from hence . One from the Name Rocke , the other from the nature of a Foundation , which both imply firmeness . Ans. 1. Note that here is in the Text not one word of the Pope , of the Church of Rome more then any other , or of infallibility . 2. How doth he prove , that by the Rocke is not meant Peters Faith , or that Doctrine which he confessed but Peter himself ? 3 If he had proved it , are not all the Prophets and Apostles as well as Peter called the foundation ? Eph. 2.20 . So that here is no more promised to him , then what was elswhere promised and given to the rest : Onely his present confession , occasioned the promise to be made expresly and particular at that time to him . 4. As the rest of the Apostles were the Foundation on which we are built , and yet their successors are not so : So though Peter were the Foundation , it followeth not that all or any of his successors are so .

The third text which Bellarmine citeth is Joh. last [ Feed my Sheep . ] Where note again , 1. That here is not a word of the Pope , or Rome , or infallibility . 2. Did not Christ bid the rest of the Apostles Feed as well as Peter ? Sure Mat. 28. He bid them all , Go teach all Nations , baptizing them , and teaching them to observe all things whatever he commanded them . And what could Peter do more in Feeding ? Yea thirdly , Are not all Pastors , though inferior to Apostles bound to Feed the Sheep of Christ ? and yet it follows not thence that they are infallible .

4. Bellarmine would next prove this from [ The High Priests wearing the Urim and Thummim , Exod. 28. ] When he first confesseth that it is not agreed among Jews or Christians what these are : And yet it will serve him for a proof . 2. The Priests were not infallible for all their Urim and Thummim : therefore no more is the Pope . They judged Christ not to be the Messiah , and therefore crucified him . They lived and died Infidels , and hardened the people in the same Infidelity , for which they were broken off and unchurched .

3. And whereas he argueth that the High Priest was infallible because the people were to go to him for resolution of difficulties , and obey them , Deut. 17. I must say that Bellarmine had some fault in his eyes that caused him to overlook the Judge , and name onely the High Priest . God sendeth them to the Judge , who was the chief Magistrate in those dayes , as well as to the High Priest ; as any man that will read the text may see . If therefore the one of them be infallible , because of this , why is not the other so too ? But perhaps they will make the Pope to be the successor both of the Magistrate and Priest , and so to be the universal Emperor as well as the universal Bishop ; and use both his swords , that so this promise may belong onely to him : For he will hardly grant every King or Judge to be infallible .

4. By this rule the rest of the Priests also should be infallible : For the people were also to receive the Law at their mouthes .

5. When was there ever one Priest in any age so impudent at Bellarmine and his faction are , to plead for or pretend an infallibility in themselves ? Let them name one Priest or person if they can , that ever had such a conceit of themselves , except it were Gods Prophets in the matters of their Prophecy .

6. What if the Jews High Priest had been infallible ? What s that to the Pope of Rome any more then to another man ? Hath he indeed yet proved himself successor of the Jews High Priest ? Except as a corrupter of the Law , and a persecutor of the Church of Christ .

Well! you have heard all the Scripture arguments that Bellarmine had to bring ( for he brings no more ) to prove the pretended infallibility of the Pope . May I not well say that it is no marvaile that they are such ill friends to Scripture , who have no more Scripture ( that is , none at all ) to befriend the very foundation of their cause ? And may I not justly recite again Bellarmines own conclusion lib. 3. de verbo Dei c. 3. and from thence shew them that their cause is built upon confessed fraud and vanity [ It is agreed b●tween us ( saith Bellarmine ) that onely out of the literal sence of Scripture effectual Arguments are fetcht : ] But Bellarmine bringeth no one Argument for the Popes infallibility out of the literal sence of Scripture : therefore he bringeth no one effectual Argument from Scripture .

But yet one other Argument he hath , though not from Scripture , and no more : and that is from a double pretended experience : And his first experience is [ That in all the other Patriarchal seats there have been Hereticks , but not in that of Rome . ] But here 1. Bellarmine must be judge , or the Pope who is a party , before all the Patriarchs can be thus condemned . 2. And what if that were true ? Can he say the like of all the Bishops , as well as Patriarchs ? If not , they may as well hence prove themselves infallible , as the Pope can do . 3. Whether ever there were in the chair at Rome either Pope Liberius an Arrian , Pope Honorius a Monothel●te , Pope John denying the immortality of the soul , with abundance more such like , we shall have fitter opportunity to open anon , to the shame of this experinemt of Bellarmines .

His second experiment is that [ The Pope without a Council hath condemned many Heresies , which upon that very account have been taken for true Heresies by the whole Church of Christ ] Ans. But you must first unchurch the greatest part of the Catholike Church , and damne most of the Christians on earth , the Greeks , Armenians , Abassines , &c. and make your own faction , to be the whole Church of Christ , before you will ever give us the least proof of this . All the Church doth not do that which your flatterers do . Nor did the ancient Church do any such thing . As other Bishops condemned Heresies as well as the Pope , so many a Heresie was judged such by the faithful , without any more interposition of the Pope then another Bishop .

Having seen thus how little their great Champion hath to say for the Popes infallibility , I could willingly have look't about me into some of the rest of them , to see if they can say any more ; but that it s known that most of them tread the same path Only I may not over pass the new way that some of them have taken up of late , to prove their infallibility , and to avoid their common Circle . And this you may see in the Jesuites late superficial answer to Chilling worth . Forsooth , they tell us , that when they prove the infallibility of their Church from Scripture , it is but for our sakes because we confess the Authority of Scripture , but not of their Church . But when they go according to the true nature and order of the matter , then they set the Church before the Scripture , and independantly of it . ] The reason of this Jesuite ( supposed to be Knot ) is this [ Because the Church is before the Scripture , and because the Miracles wrought by the Apostles did first prove their own infallibility , and from thence secondarily the infallibility of their Doctrine . And when we are in high expectations of the proofs of the Romane infallibility by his Arguments which are Independent of Scripture , and before the belief of it , he tells ●s that it is by the like Aaguments as the Apostles proved their infallibility , which he thus enumerateth So the Church of God by the like still continued Arguments and Notes , of many great and manifest Miracles , Sanctity , Sufferings Victory over all sorts of enemies , conversion of Infidels , all which Notes are daily more and more , conspicuous and convincing , and shall be encreasing the longer the world shall last ] And withall he tells us , that [ These Miracles , &c. prove them to be infallible in All things , and not onely in some , or else we cannot know which those some be , and what to believe and what not . ]

Thus you have the sum of the new Fundamentals of the Romish faith , and of the famous confutation of Chillingworth . But all these Knots are easily losed without cutting ; yea shake them onely , and they fall loose like Juglers Knots .

1. We easily grant that Christ the head of the Church was before the Doctrine by himself delivered in the flesh , as it containeth many things superadded to the old Testament and the doctrine of John , Baptist .

2. It s evident that Christ himself gathered his first Gospel-Church by preaching his Doctrine , that is , he drew them to be his Disciples , by convincing them that he was the Messiah , the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world ; so that this his Doctrine was before this his Church .

3. We grant that the Apostles were Apostles before themselves did preach the Gospel as Apostles : But it was the Gospel , and preacht by Christ , before they preach't it .

4. We easily grant that both Apostles and Gospel were long before the writing of this Gospel , which we call the holy Scriptures .

5. We grant that the Apostles Miraculous works did sufficiently prove , not some onely , but all the Doctrine which they delivered to the Church or any part of it , in the name of Christ and as his : For though they confirmed onely those Doctrines which were delivered in execution of their Commission , yet seeing God would not have set to this seal , if they had gone beyond and against their Commission , therefore it also assureth us that they kept close to it . But this proved them not infallible before they received that Commission , nor afterward in any point which they should deliver as their private opinion , which they fathered , not on the Inspiration of the Spirit . The Apostles were not infallible about Christs Death , Resurrection , and Ascension , when they understood them not : The Disciples were not infallible about the Acceptableness of Infants to Christ , when they forbad them to be brought . Thomas was not infallible about Christs Resurrection when he believed it not . Peter was not infallible when he gave Christ that Satanical councel , for which he was ●antum non ( almost ) excommunicated , Mat 16.22 , 23. Even presently after the great promise to him ; Nor when he denyed that he knew Christ , with curses and oathes ; nor when he dissembled and Barnabas with him , Gal. 2.

6. We maintain that the Apostles Doctrine thus sealed by Miracles , and Delivered in Writing to the Churches , doth carry with it an Attestation from God of its infallibility , if there be never more Miracle wrought in the world . For the proof of this I refer the Reader to my Determination in a Book Intitled , The Vnreasonableness of Infidelity .

7. It is this sealed Doctrine contained in Scripture , and preached by Ministers , which converteth men to Christ , and maketh them Christians , and therefore it is in order before the present Church and the cause of it .

8. We deny and confidently deny that God hath Commissioned the Pope to do the work which he Commissioned the Apostles to do , and gave them the power of Miracles to confirme , that is , to Attest the Works , Sufferings , Resurrection , and words of Christ as eye or ear witnesses of them from himself : and to be the first promulgators of some of his Laws to the universal Church , and to deliver down an infallible sealed Scripture , to all succeeding Ages , and by the ordinary working of Miracles to convince the unbelieving world . Let him shew his Commission for this Apostleship if he would be believed .

9. We as confidently deny that the Pope is a Prophet , or is inspired by the Holy Ghost , as the Prophets and Apostles were , that so they might infallibly deliver us Christs doctrine .

10. And they cannot expect that we should believe till we have some proof of it , that the Pope , or the Church of Rome hath the Power of working Miracles , or are endowed with a spirit of Miracles , or that they can convince those that deny the Scriptures by their own Miracles that they are the true Church , or that ever they confirmed those points by Miracles , which is , now called Popery .

Thus much to let the Jesuite know where we differ from him : And now to the point . We call for his proofs , which he here mentioneth to us in general names Non esse & non apparere ; are to us all one . Give us sufficient proof of your sealing the Doctrine of Popery by Miracles , or the Popes Infallibility by Miracles , as the Apostles did the Scriptures , and their preaching , and then you shall carry the cause , and we profess that we will rejoycingly pass into your Tents , and proclaim you Prophets or Apostles of Christ : But when we live among you , and so did our Fathers before us , and hear you prate and boast of Miracles , when we cannot see that ever you did so much as make a dead flea alive again , nor cannot see the least Miracle from you , if we would ride or go as far as our horse or legs can carry us , to see it , what can we take you for but the most shameless sort of cheaters ?

If you could accuse us of negligence , as if we might see your Miracles if we would but travail for it , or of unbelief , as if we denyed that which we have evidence of , we might bear the blame : but there 's no such thing . I profess as weak as I am , I would go many a hundred miles to see such Miracles as you boast of , if I had sufficient ground of expectation that I might not lose my labor . And I would read over any Volumes that I were able to find suciffient Testimony of them . But where is this testimony ? Knot refers us to Brierly , and others to such like reciters of their Fables . And when all is done , there are three sorts of Miracles that they speak of . 1. The Miracles of the Apostles and first Churches mention in Scripture , and these are against Popery ; so that we may well say that the doctrine which contradicteth Popery is confirmed by Miracles in that the Scripture is so confirmed . 2. The Miracles of the following Churches till six hundred . These were comparatively few , and less certain , and fabulous mixtures in many of the reports of them . But whatever they were , they were no confirmation of the Popes Infallibility , or universal Episcopacy or Jurisdiction , which neither the Instruments of those Miracles , nor any man else on earth , as far as can be proved did then believe . And whereas there were some Ceremonious fopperies that were then used , which the Papists do yet use , and would perswade us that these Miracles were confirmations of them , we deny it , and profess the nullity of their pretended proofs . They say , [ If they be not infallible in all things , how can we believe them in any thing ? ] I answ. Because that 1. Their Miracles are expressed Attestations to some thing , that is , to Christianity , but not to all things that they may think ! Nor could they ever work a Miracle to confirm such private opinions . 2. And the substance of Christianity which their Miracles do attest , were more unquestionable before attested by Scripture and former Miracles ; whereas the errors which they introduced are contradicted by Scripture and the Miracles that attested it .

And whereas they would make the Apostles case to be like that of the Fathers : It is very much different . For though the Apostles Miracles were attestations to all their doctrine , as well as to some part ; that was because they were Officers Commissioned by Christ to that work , to deliver his doctrine first to the world , as inspired infallible men , and to seal it to posterity for future certainty : But the Fathers had no such work in Commission ; but onely to preach the doctrine thus sealed and delivered them by the Apostles , and therefore their Miracles were to another more private , and restrained use , according to their Commissions and work ; that is , to convert those persons to the faith that knew of them , by a subservient attestation , so that it could oblige none to believe them in other things , much less in their mistakes .

3. The third sort of Miracles are those of later times contained in their Legends . And seriously , would the Jesuites perswade us that these are of equal authority with the Miracles mentioned in Scripture ? or any whit like them ? I have given you a taste of some of them in the former Disputation : more you may see of their ridiculous vanity in Doctor Franc. Whites Defence of his Brother , pag. 147.148 . [ We must believe a a Baron . an. 1028. c. 5. Baronius that Saint Fulbeck suck't our Ladyes brests : And Antonine b b Antonin . sum . hist. p. 3. tit. 23. c. 4. § 6. &c. 7. § 8. &c. 1. § 4. Math. Paris hist. Angl. in Henric. 2. pa. 92. that Saint Dominick walk't in the rain and was not wet ; and his Books lying all night in the river , were taken out dry and without hurt : That the same Fryer spyed the Devil sitting in the Church like a Sparrow , and calling him to him , deplumed him , and so put him to a great reproach : And that he made the Divel hold him the candle in his bare fingers till they were burnt : that a leacherous Priest by kissing his hand , was cured of incontinency . That Saint Bernard by blessing their Ale , and giving it some lewd persons to drink , caused Gods Grace to enter into them ; That he made an old Grandame of above fourscore years old to give suck to the Infant , when the mother was dead : That he killed Flyes by Excommunication : and excommunicated the Divel , and thereby disabled him from lying with women : c c Vita Bern. prafixa cj●● qaribu● ▪ Surius & Bonavent & Antonin . & Legend baec recitant That Saint Francis turned a Capon into a Fish , and water into wine : made the Rock send forth water , and Anchors to swimme ; Preacheth to Birds and Beasts , to praise God , till they were so attentive to his doctrine , that they would let him touch them , and would not depart till he gave them leave , and had blessed them with the sign of the Cross : converted a cade Lamb by preaching to him , so that he would frequent the Church of his own accord , and kneel before the Altar of our Lady at the Elevation of the Host : By which example , Surius calleth on the Hereticks to learn to worship the Blessed Virgin , and to adore the Sacrament . Also , that he caused Swallows , Grashoppers and a wild Falcon to joyn with him in the Praises of God . ] Abundance more of the like , more foppish , and too many to be here meddled with , their Legends are full of ; And these are their proofs of their true Church and infallibility by which they may be known by them that believe not the Scripture , I think indeed that these proofs are well said to be Independent of Scripture ; for the less a man believes the Scripture , the more he is like to believe these

But by what certain or probable Testimony shall we know that ever such things were done ? What! must we needs believe every doting Fryer that gives us but his bare word , and that many a year ( if not age ) after these Miracles are supposed to be wrought : Must we believe them that so shamefully contradict one another ? Math. Paris d d Hist. Ang Henr 3 p. 329 saith that Saint Francis was branded with his five wounds fifteen dayes before he dyed : But Bonaventure , Vincentius and Surius say he had them two years before he dyed .

Nay must we belive as the very foundation of our Faith , that which the Papists themselves believe not ? How commonly do they among themselves deride these stories , as pious fraudes , and some of them soundly chide the Authors , I will at this time cite but the words of one , and that is no Babe , even Melch. Canus , whom Bellarmine referreth us to so oft .

[ Lib. 11. cap. 6. pag. ( mihi ) 33.34 . Quidam enim corum aut veritatis amore inducti , aut ingenu● pudoris , &c. That is , Some of them ( the Heathen Historians ) either induced with the love of Truth , or in ingenuous modesty , did so far abhor a lye , that perhaps we should be now ashamed , that some heathen Historians were truer then ours . I speak rather with grief then in reproach ; the Lives of the Philosophers are much more severely ( that is , truely ) written by Laertius , than the Lives of the Saints are by Christians : and Suetonius did far more incorruptly and more entirely set forth the affairs of the ( Romane ) Caesars , then Catholikes have set forth , I say not the affairs of Emperors , but of Martyrs , Virgins and confessors . For they — But ours do for the most part either follow their own affections , or else of set purpose forge so many things , that indeed I am not onely ashamed of them , but also aweary of them . For I know that these have brought to the Church of Christ small profit , but much disprofit : I spare ( mens ) names because — It is certain that they who write Church History feignedly and deceitfully , cannot be good and sincere men ; and that their whole Narration is invented , either for lucre , or for error , whereof one is filthy , and the other pernicious . The complaint of Ludovicus is most just of some feigned Histories in the Church . He doth indeed prudently and gravely reprove them that take it to be a matter of piety to forge lyes for Religion . A thing that is very pernicious and no whit necessary . For we are wont not to believe a Lyar , even when he tells truth . They therefore who by false and lying writings would stir up the minds of mortal men to worship the Saints , these seem to me to have done nothing else , then to make men deny belief to truths , because of falshoods — To what purpose is it to pretend the name of History to fictions and fables ? As if the holy men of God did need our Lyes — But while some do too much indulge their own affections , and write those things which the writers mind , and not the Truth doth dictate ▪ they make us such Saints , sometime , as the Saints themselves would not be , if they could : Can any man believe that Saint Francis was used to take the Lice on him again which he had shak't off him ? The Writer thought this was part of the mans holiness , but so do not I , who know that the holy man was pleased with poverty , but not with filthyness . And how ridiculous is this , that the Divel raging on a time against our father Dominicke was constrained by this Saint to hold the candle so long in his hands , till it did not onely trouble him , but incredibly pain him . Such examples cannot be numbred : but in these few most of the rest may be understood , which have darkened the histories of the most famous Saints — They do therefore exceedingly wrong the Church of Christ , who think they do not well set forth the excellent deeds of the Saints , unless they adorn them with feigned Revelations and Miracles Wherein the impudency of men hath neither spared the Holy Virgin , nor the Lord Christ — Of late years when I was at the Council of Trent , I heard by some that Aloysius Lippomannus was healing this disease , by writing a history of the Lives of the Saints in a constant and grave speech : But I could never yet see this , nor any other which I could allow , of all those that have come into my hands . ☜ So far for Melch. Canus .

And do their own most Learned and Judicious Writers cry out of Lyes , and Histories so much more false then the Heathens , and impudent forgeries , and say that , they never saw any of these Histories which they could allow of ; and yet must we needs make these the Foundation of our Faith , instead of the sealed Word of God ? What a Religion have the Papists that is built on such a foundation !

Yea of the reports of some of the late Writers that were next before Popery , I will add a few more words of Canus , ib. li. 11. pag. 337. [ Cicero thought Demosthenes nodded somtime ; and Horace thought so of Homer himself . For though they were excellent , yet but men : And the same perhaps may I say justly and truly of Beda and Gregory . One of them in his History of the English , the other in his Dialogues , do write certain Miracles , talk't of and believed by the vulgar , which the criticks of this age will judge to be uncertain . I should have more approved those Histories , if their authors had according to the aforesaid rule , to severity of judgement , joyned more care in their choice — ] And how he lets fly at the lyes of Antonius and Valvacen : The next page shews : And page 338.339 . how he censures Eusebius himself . But I must forbear more such citations lest I weary the Reader .

It is now long since Doctor John White told them of their a a Opuscul . de ●oncep . Virg. c. 1. Cajetans words , who saith [ It cannot be known infallibly that the Miracles upon which the Church groundeth the Canonization of Saints , are true ] And their b b ●art . 1. t●t. 8 c. c. Antoninus Florent saith of the visions of Bernard and Brigit about the Virgin Maries conception [ They are fantastick visions and mens dreams ] And their Claudius Espeucaeus c c 2 Tim. 4 Digr. 21. saith [ No stable is so full of dung , as the Legends are full of fables — Yea very fictions are in their portesses ] And Gerson d d Part. 1. [ All these the Church receives , and permiteth them to be read , not as certainly true , but more attending to what might be in pious recogitation , then to what indeed was done ] And Doctor White then made a challenge to them , that we will admit of all those Miracles , which are reported by such men , as some of their own Writers do openly Note for Lyars . e e Whites Works fol. pag. 158. Which challenge the Popish Replyer had no mind it seems to take up .

But though it belong to the Romanists to prove their Miracles ( which prove their Infallibility without Scripture ) and not to us to prove the Negative , yet I shall try to shame their confidence by a few pertinent Questions , when it shall appear how little they have to say in answer to them .

Q. 1. And first I desire to know of them whether the Miracles that prove their infallibility without Scripture are wrought by the Present Church , or by the Church of former ages onely ? If by the present , why cannot we see them ? Why are we still sent to Saint Brigit , or Saint Francis , or Saint Somebody that is long ago dead and gone ? We thought once we had had one neer us here , I mean , the Boy of Bilson , who did wondrous things in favor of the Papists ; but in the Issue , by the industry of Bishop Morton he was proved to be a counterfeit , and confessed himself trained up by the Papists for the cheat . But if it onely the Generations that are dead and gone that wrought Miracles , then I would further aske . 1. Doth it not seem then that your Church is Apostate , in that it hath lost the gift of Miracles , which you suppose so necessary ? And how will the Gifts of your predecessors prove your present infallibility , any more then the Gifts of the predecessors of the Greek Bishops will prove their infallibility that now are ? 2. If past Miracles may serve without present , then what need any more than the old Miracles of the Apostles ? And then why are not all the Apostles successors infallible as well as the Pope ? Seeing all the Apostles had the gift of Miracles ( and many thousand more ) Therefore those past Miracles should prove all Bishops infallible that succeeded them .

2. Quest. I desire also to know whether it be your Pope himself that Works these Miracles , or some other persons ? And if others , whether it be onely some of your Church , or all ? If it be the Pope himself , why then have we more murthers then Miracles charged on your Popes by your own historians ? and why will not his holiness do some Miracles in charity to poor Hereticks ? Why do you boast no more of you Popes Miracles ? One I confess we read of in the Golden Legend , that Pope Leo the first by the means of a woman kissing his hand was so vehemently tempted with lust , that he was fain to cut his hand off : but the Virgin Mary having compassion on him , joyned his hand to his body again . But this is no foundation of our faith .

But it s plain that it is Saint Becket , and Saint Brigit and Saint Katharine that you send us to for Miracles , and not to the Pope : And then I would further know whether one mans Miracles will prove another man infallible unless they were wrought in confirmation of the assertion of that other mans infallibility ? It should rather prove Saint Brigit and Saint Katharine infallible that are said to have the Revelations and Miracles , then the Pope , that had none . Would it prove the Patriarch of Constantinople infallible , if any one that is under his Government should work a Miracle ? ? Or are you sure that there is no Miracle wrought among the Grecians , Abassines or Armenians ?

Moreover , if you are All Miracle Workers , why can we never see one , nor have certain proof of one ? But if it be but some very few of you ( as good as none ) how will that prove the infallibility of your whole Church ? When the Apostles wrought Miracles , that proved their own infallibility : but that proved not the infallibility of all in the Church nor of every teacher in it , nor of the greater number of them

3. Quest. If your Pope and Church be proved infallible , by such Miracles as the Apostles were doth it not follow then that all your Popes are inspired persons or Prophets as the Apostles were by which the gift of infallibility was conveyed to them ?

4. Quest. Yea will it not follow that all your Church are inspired Prophets , if all your Church be thus infallible : But you cannot expect that we should too easily believe these . If you have Apostolick infallibility grounded on the like Miracles , then must you not be each one dis-junctly infallible , as the Apostles were ; and not onely altogether ?

5. Quest. And is it not plain then that all your dictates are Gods word , if you have the same seal and inspiration as the Apostles had ? And so your Pope , at least , if not each one of you must make us new Revelations , or new Scripture : And is not this hainous arrogancy , thus to equal your selves with Prophets and Apostles , when you are none ? They could but be infallible , and so you say is the Pope , They could but seal their doctrine by Miracles , and so you say doth your Church .

6. Quest. Will you grant that we are all infallible here in England , if we can prove any Miracles done among us and by us ?

7. Quest. Is it not absolutely necessary to the validity of the Testimony of a Miracle , that it be not controled by some greater Miracle or evidence ? Otherwise the Magicians in Egypt , and ●imon Magus might have gone away with better reputation . But your pretended Miracles are con●rolled by far greater and surer , and therefore of no force : For yours are to confirm a doctrine contrary to the Scripture , which was confirmed by many surer Miracles . This we are still ready to prove , though here we take it for certain : but you use to decline that t●yal .

8. Quest Is not every Priest infallible , and every Church that hath the Eucharist , according to your doctrine ? For sure Transubstantiation is a Miracle : I do not think you will deny it . And a Priest , even in deadly sin , may be an instrument of this Miracle , if your Church be infallible . Is , there then no Eucharist among the Abassines , Greeks , or any that subject not to you ? Or are they all infallible ? And if Miracles be as common as Transubstantiation , the priviledge proved by them must be as common . So much to Master Knots first proof of his Infallibility without Scripture .

His second Independent proof , is [ Sanctity ] But Sir 1. Are all Saints infallible ? Sure you dare not say so ?

2. Will the Sanctity of one man , as Saint Francis or Saint Dominicke , prove the infallibility of the Pope that hath no Sanctity ? By what means ? Rather if Saints be infallible , a Murdering , Simoniacal , Drunken , Fornicating Pope ( as yours confess many of them were ) are not like to be infallible ; especially Saint Brigit cannot make the Pope infallible by that Sanctity , that would not make or prove her self infallible .

3. Who must be judge of your Sanctity and ours ? Your selves no doubt . For my part , if my salvation lay wholly upon the passing of a righteous censure between us in this point , I must needs profess , that even in England , where the Papists should be of their best sort , because it is not the common way of the Nation , but a discountenanc't way , and where they are but few , yet I have known so few of them that have not been common Swearers , Cursers , Drunkards , Whoremongers , or the like , and yet fewer that ever manifested any serious minding of God and the life to come , or any experience of the work of Sanctification on their hearts ; and who shewed any more holiness than what say in certain ceremonies , words , gestures or other formalities ; and on the contrary I know so many Protestants of heavenly hearts ( as far as I can judge ) and obedient lives ; that there is no comparison , in my most impartial judgement between Papists and Protestants in matter of holiness . If this therefore be the proof of infallibility , sure God will excuse me , if I take England to be as infallible as Rome , because he requires me not to put out my eyes , nor to say the Swan is black , and the Crow white , because the Pope shall say so before me . And yet we still disclaim all pretences to such infallibility .

The third mark that Knot brings , is their [ Sufferings . ]

But 1. Sure the Pope suffers but little ( in this life : but in the next , let him look to himself ) How then do other mens sufferings prove him infallible ?

2. Do not the poor Greek Churches and other Christians under the Turks , suffer more then the Romanists ?

3. Do they not make us suffer incomparably more then they ? Is it not impudence almost inhumane after the murder of so many thousands of the Albigenses , Waldenses , Bohemians , after the Massacres in France , Savoy , Ireland , the burnings in England , the Powder-Plot , after their bloody inquisition of so long continuance , and the rest of this kind , to tell the remnant of their surviving neighbors , that their sufferings prove them infallible , while our sufferings prove us Heretical ?

4. Is it not ambition and desire of Rule that is the very cause which they contend for ? What s the unreconcileable quarrel so much as that all the world will not be subject to them ? And yet the sufferings of these men prove them infallible ? If one Butcher Henry the third of France , and another Henry the fourth , and others would blow up the English Parliament with Gunpowder , is the Pope infallible if some of these be hanged ? Or what if some of them have suffered from infidels ? Are not others as ready so to suffer as they ? and have suffered as much as they ?

The next mark that he layes down is [ Victory over all sorts of enemies ] But is it over their minds , or over their bodies that they mean ? If the first , who must be judge of their victories , but themselves ? I never heard any of them plead their cause but in my judgement they had the worst . There i● no party but may turn divers others to their opinions . Mahomet hath got far more followers in the world then Christ ; and Heathenism than either . If Papists can turn all these , why do they suffer themselves still to be confined to so small a part of the world ? And if it be victory over mens bodies that they mean , I say the like . Have not the Turkes a larger Dominion than the Pope ? Have they conquered the Great Turk , the Great Mogol , the Grand Cham of Tartary , & c ? Are we not as infallible as they on this account , when we conquer them ? It seems then , when Papists are so industrious to enlarge their Dominions , to destroy their enemies by Poysoning or stabbing Kings , or other means , it is that they may have a further Testimony of their infallibility .

The last mark which the Jesuite mentioneth , is [ the conversion of Infidels . ]

But 1 If that be a sure Mark , we are infallible as well as they : For we have been means of converting Infidels . And so have the Greek Churches , and others that disown the Popes infallibility .

2. If that Argument be good , then it was not only the Apostles , but all that converted Infidels at the first ( or after ) preaching of the Gospel , that were infallible : which sure they never pretended to .

3. If it will prove any body infallible , it s liker to prove them so that did convert any Infidels , then the Pope that onely gives them leave or order to do it .

4. Let them not boast too much of their conversions , till we have a better character of their new made Christians , and a better report of their means of conversion , then Acosta and other of their own Jesuites give us , who have been eye witnesses of the case . To cut men off by thousands or millions , and force the rest to Baptism , as cattle to watering , when they have nothing of a Christian but the name and that sign , and some forget the name it self ; this is not a conversion much to be boasted of . Nor must they think that all are Christians that the King of Spain conquereth for love of their Gold and Silver Mines . The Apostles did not convert Infidels by an Army , but by the word and miracles ; but it is the King of Spaines souldiers that have been the effectual preachers to work the conversions that you have most to glory in . If the Jesuit had put his proofs into well formed Arguments , what stuff should we have had ?

So much for the Answer to Chilling worth , and the new Fundamentals of the Romish faith , by which they can prove their Pope infallible without being beholden to Scripture for its help ( And I marvaile not at their contempt of Scripture-Testimony to them , unless there were more , or more appearance for them then there is . )

Having considered the Papists proof of their infallibility , I shall next ( though it be more then the cause obligeth me to ) say somewhat to prove the Negative , and so proceed to my second Argument against them .

Argu. 2. If the common senses of sound men ( or their sensible apprehensions ) be infallible , then the Pope with his pretended General Council is fallible : But the common senses of sound men are infallible : Therefore , &c.

I know not how we should come neerer hand with a Papist , nor to plainer dealing , then to argue from common sense . And as to the Antecedent , Either sense is infallible , or it is not : If it be , I have that I seek . If not , then mark what follows .

1. Then no man can be sure that the Christian Religion is true : For the proofs of it all vanish , if sense be not infallible . If you plead the Miracles of Christ and his Disciples , no man was sure that he saw them . If you plead the death and Resurrection and Ascension of Christ , no man was sure he saw them , and therefore could give no assurance of it to another . All the Disciples senses , and the worlds senses were ( or might be , for ought we know ) deceived . Nor are you sure that any writings or traditions came down to us from the Apostles : For the eyes of the Readers and the ears of the hearers might be deceived . 2. And then most certainly the Pope himself and all his Clergy are fallible : For they cannot be sure of that which the Apostles and following Church were not sure of : Nor can they be sure that in reading and hearing , their eyes deceive them not . And I take it for granted that the Pope and his Clergy do use their senses , and by them receive these matters into their intellect . Nay if sense be fallible , no man in the Church of Rome can tell whether there be any such place as Rome , or any such person as the Pope at all , or ever was . Nay what else can any man be sure of ?

I suppose you will marvail why I bestow so many words on such a point : But you see what men we have to deal with : When all the quarrel between us must be issued by this point , whether common sense be infallible ? For if it be , we infallibly carry the cause : Yea whether it be or be not , as shall appear .

I come next therefore to prove the consequence ▪ and that I do thus .

The judgement of the Pope and his pretended General Council is directly contradictory to the apprehension or judgement of common sense : therefore if common sense be infallible , the Pope and his Council are fallible .

The consequent is unquestionable ; the Antecedent I prove by this known Instance .

Common sense takes it to be bread and Wine that remaineth after the words of consecration : The Pope and his Council say , it is not Bread nor Wine that remains after the words of consecration : therefore the judgement of the Pope and his Council is directly contradictory to the apprehension of common sense .

For the first , I appeal to the senses of all men that ever received the Eucharist . Whether seeing , feeling , smelling , and tasting , do not as plainly take it to be Bread and Wine , as they do any other Bread or Wine at their own tables ? and whether they can see or taste , or smell , or feel , any difference to give them the least cause of doubting ? I am sure I have the judgement of thousands and millions on my side , which in a matter of sense among sound men , is certainly enough . And if the Papists are so mad as to tell me , that it is otherwise with their senses ; and will seriously profess that their eyes , and taste , &c. do not take these for Bread and Wine , but perceive that they are not , I will take them for shameless lyars , or madmen ; and I suppose no man in his senses will blame me for so doing . Well I its pa●● doubt that all our senses tell us its Bread and Wine , as confidently as they tell us any thing is such . And it is certain that the Pope and his Council tell us it is not Bread and Wine : If our eyes be infallible that read it , and our ears that hear it from their own mouthes ; then this is sure enough and too sure ; I know they will not deny it : I would they would , we should then be somewhat neerer a reconciliation . What now can be said to avoid the conclusion , is past my understanding ; save onely that it is possible that some of them may come in with some alluding distinction to see if they can blind mens sense and reason ; and so perhaps they 'l tell them that 1. sense is infallible , on supposition of the right constitution of the medium , but else not : or 2. that sense judgeth but of accidents , and not of substances , and the accidents of Bread and Wine are here ; or 3. that sense is infallible in common cases , where substances and accidents are not separated , as here they be . To which ( if such stuff deserve an answer ) I reply , 1. What medium is here questionable or questioned by you , but the accidents themselves , which you say are the objects . Sure the aire is clear and perspicuous : the distance is not too neer or too far off ; our eyes and taste are sound . 2. I think senses judge of substances with their accidents : The eye sees substantiam coloratam , and the hand feeleth the substantiam qualem & quantam , and not onely qualitatem & quantitatem substantiae . But let that controversie go how it will , I am sure the substance is objectum s●nsus per accidens , though not per se , or that the intellect infallibly judgeth of substance , by the help of the senses apprehension . Otherwise all the forementioned absurdities will follow , and still the Pope and Church will be fallible : For then the Apostles and others that saw Christs Miracles could be sure onely of the accidents , and not of the substance . Then no man is certain whether it was Christ himself that lived on earth that was crucified , and rose again , or onely the accidents of Christ : And then no man knows whether there be a Pope at Rome , or onely the accidents of a Pope : and so of the rest . 3. And to the third part of the answer I reply , That if sense be infallible when substances and accidents are inseparable , then it is alwayes infallible : For the accident separated from the subject doth perish . Moreover how shall we know whether substances and accidents are separated or not ? If we be sure of that by sense , then sense is still infallible so far : if not , then sense is fallible , because it knows not when it apprehendeth any more then naked accidents . But indeed it s a contradiction to talk of accidents that are not subjecti alicujus accidentia .

Obj. Sense is infallible ( suppose the right temper of the Organs , object , Medium ) till God tell us the contrary , but then it is fallible : But in the point of Transubstantiation God hath told us the contrary to what common sense apprehendeth : Therefore here sence is deceived .

Answ. 1. Sense must in order be first known to be infallible , before you can tell any thing that God hath said or wrote , of its fallibility or infallibility : or else you cannot tell but your eyes in reading , or your ears in hearing those words of his , did deceive you . 2. Sense and Reason are the judging faculties which God hath given to mankind for the discerning of their objects . It is not therefore to be imagined that God doth turn the great Deceiver of the world , and by supernatural light contradict the Light of Nature , even the apprehensions of the sound and general sense of the world : Gods supernatural Revalations presupposes his Natural ones , and are additions thereto , but do not contradict them : for then God should contradict himself when both are his Revelations . God cannot lye , saith the Apostle : And what were it for God to lye or say truth , but onely to make a deceitful or not deceitful discovery of his mind and will or the effects to us ? Indeed , there may through our imperfection be a deceit of the senses , when the Organs are distempered , and the medium , or object are not conveniently disposed : and every such distance , impediment , or other ill disposure , is not as Gods voice to tell us the thing as what to our imperfect sense it seems : But if the common senses of men , that are sound and not hindred by any such impediments shall yet be all deceived meerly by a contradicting ordinance of God , then it would seem that God gave man contradictory lights and guides . And their objection seems to be as bad , as if they should say so of Gods word [ That it is alway true , except where God tells us the contrary ] but if it might be false at any time , how can you tell that that very word is true which you pretend doth tell you of the falshood of another word : so say I here . If sense be not alwayes infallible ( where it hath its requisite assistance ) then how can you tell that your senses are infallible when you are reading [ Hoc est corpus meum , This is my body ] which you think contradicteth the infallibility of sense ? For 2. Is the infallibility of sense a thing that is known by nature , or by supernatural Light ? Not by supernatural Light ( unless consequentially ) where doth Scripture or your Tradition say , that sense is sometime infallibe , and sometime fallible ( supposit is requisitis ) ? And nature tells you no more of the infallibility of any other acts of sence ( or Receptions ) then of those same which you pronounce to be fallible .

3. We challenge you and all the world , to prove that ever God hath revealed in Scripture , that the common sences of men , are deceived about their proper objects , the requisites in Nature supposed ; Or that ever he made any ordinances for the deluding or contradicting the sences of his Church ? Or ever said any such thing ; Cannot Christ say [ Hoc est corpus meum : This is my Body ] but he must needs proclaim a delusion of the sences of all men that take it to be Bread ? Then when God saith [ Hoc est faedus meum : This is my Covenant ] Gen. 17.10 . He must proclaim all mens sences deceived ; because sence faith it was but Circumcision , and Bellarmine will confess it was but the sign of a Covenant . Then when Paul saith [ This Rock was Christ ] it must proclaim that all the Israelites sences were deceived , that thought it to be a true Rock : when a Papist will confess that the meaning is [ This Rock represented or signified Christ ] As if among many Images , you should say , This is Peter , and this John , and this Paul , this were plainly to say , This signifieth Peter or representeth him , &c. and doth not proclaim that deceit of sence . Bellarmine cannot deny but that it is called in 1 Cor. 10. & 11. Bread and the Cup six times over , as after the consecration ; and here his shifting answer is , that things are said to be in Scripture what they seem to be , as the brazen Serpent is called a Serpent , and so here he pleadeth a Trope . Good still ! The Scripture calls it [ Bread ] six times neer together , after the consecration , and it calls it [ Christs Body ] once ( when his living body sate by ) Now the Question is which of these speeches are Tropical . And we must believe Bellarmine that the text which calls it six times Bread , must needs be Tropical , and that which calls it once [ Christs Body ] must needs be understood without a Trope . And this is all the evidence they can bring that God hath proclaimed mens sences to be fallible . Nay all that we need for our cause is but to take [ est ] for [ significat ] which is so common that one would think there should not such unnatural absurdities be admitted to avoid it , as overthrow our humanity .

When we plead that Christ had a true body , and that a true body may be seen and felt , because Christ bids them , Luk. 24. See and feel , for a spirit hath not flesh and bones , &c. Bellarmine answereth that Sence is infallible in positives , and therefore thence we may say [ This is a body because I see it self , but not in Negatives ; and therefore we cannot say [ This is not a body because I see it not . ] And what need we more then that which is here granted ? By his own confession then we may conclude that [ This is Bread and Wine , because we see , feel , smell , taste it . ] Yet no doubt , we may also argue that it is not a natural body , because it is not visible or sensible .

So much for this second Argument , which I may thus with full advantage enforce : If sence be either fallible or infallible , the Pope is fallible : But sence is either fallible or infallible : Therefore .

If sense be fallible the Pope is fallible , and all his Church for their sences , and the Apostles and their followers were fallible . ☜ If sence be infallible , the Pope and his Council are fallible ; because the common sences of all sound men take that for Bread and Wine which they expresly say ( as de fide to be believed ) is not either Bread or Wine .

Argu. 3. If the Pope and his pretended General Councils have erred already , then are they not infallible : But the Pope and his pretended General Councils have erred already : Therefore they are not infallible .

As the first Argument was taken from the no proof of his infallibility , and the second from the common senses of mankind , so the third is taken from certain experience ; which is a medium so evident that their vain words and subtil evasions , have the less force to elude or obscure it . Of the validity of the consequence there is no question can be made . He that hath erred , is not infallible . All the doubt therefore is of the Antecedent , which hath by unquestionable evidence of History been put out of doubt by our Writers long ago . I shall produce some few instances of many .

Bellarm. de Pontif. li. 4. cap. 8.9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. There are no less than fourty Popes whom Bellarmine himself takes notice of as charged with error or heresie , for whom he frameth such poor excuses , that I should think any impartial Reader might receive satisfaction enough from Bellarmine that the Pope is too fallible . Yea that even judicially and in fundamentals he may err .

Did not Pope Liberius a a Vid. Binnium Tom. 1. Conc. part. 1. p. 478 notis in 7. Epist. Liberii & p. 480. & p. 422. Item Baron . ●●●o 357. § 9.344 . § 3.4.5 . & 359. § 4 10 & Bellar. de Pontif. l. 4 c. 9. erre judicially when he subscribed to the Arrians confession in the Council of Sirmium [ Libenti animo suscepi in nullo contradicens ] which the Fathers condemn of Heresie ? and to the Councils condemnation of Athanasius , as Athanasius himself and many more witness . Did not Pope Vigilius err judicially when he condemned the Decree of the General Council ( for condemning dead Hereticks ) ? And when Pope Pelagius and Gregory the first , and Adrian the first did all approve of the same ? Sure one party of these Popes erred , unless contradictoryes may be true ? Yea when Pope Vigilius did afterward revoke his own constitution b b Vid. Binnium net in Concil. 5. Occumenis . sure he erred either in making or revoking it ? And so did Pope Paschalis when they gave God thanks in open Council that they heard the Pope with his own mouth revok those grants which ( said they ) contained Heresie , which he himself had before made to the Emperor c c Kraulzius Saxon li. 5. cap. 38. . Though Cajetans excuse be true that it was no Heresie , yet either the making or revoking was an error . What will they invent at last to hide the nakedness of Pope Honorius who in two several General Councils was condemned for a Monothelite Heretick ? which he judicially perswaded Sergius to , when he sought his judgement . Stapleton and many more of them confess the full certainty of the Councils condemning him of Heresie ; but forsooth they say the Council did mistake the case d d Vid. Bin●●m Tom. 3. part. 1 p. 143. & Staplet . Cons. 3. qu. 4. ad arg. 7. . It seems then either a Pope may be a Heretick , or a General Council err .

Moreover will any Papists deny that Pope Stephen six , and Sergius erred when e e Vid. Sigebert in Chron p. 74. Anno. 902. & Martin . Polon . supput . p 158. they judicially decreed that those should be ordained again that were ordained by Pope Form●sus ? And of Pope Celestines error Alphonsus a Castro faith f f Alphons . ●dv . Hereses li. 1. c. 4. that he himself saw it in the ancient Decretals as his Definition , and therefore that it cannot be said that he erred as a private man , and not as Pope . What can they say of Pope John twenty two who denyed the immortality of the soul , and was admonished of his heresie by the Doctors of Paris , as not onely Pope Adrian the sixth , Joh. Gerson , Alphons . a Castro , and others witness , but Bellarmine himself confesseth also . But he excuseth him , because that opinion was not there defined against , and therefore was no heresie : See here 1. Whether the Papists do not make themselves a new Faith and Religion when they please , and that is a point of Faith with them one year that was none the year before : so that the novelty and the mutability of their Religion is thus by themselves confessed . 2. See here that a point declared in Scripture , and held by the former Church is no point of Faith with them , unless it be declared by a Pope or General Council . 3. See here what men Bellarmine would make all the former Popes to have been , that had determined , whether the soul were immortal or not . 4. Chamier truely noteth that Bellarmine himself , forgetfully contradicteth himself , and tells us elswhere that Innocent the third ( the ninteeneth Pope before John twenty two ) had taught the contrary in express words .

I shall forbear to reckon up any more , because the Reader may find it done so fully already in so many , and the excuses of Bellarmine by Chamier and many others so fully answered : and because it is a thing so far out of question , Vid. J●well Defens . part 1. c. 8. Divis. 1. & part. 2. c. 3. divis. 2 & part. 4. c. 18. Divis. 1. that nothing but gross ignorance or impudency can deny it . It is so common a thing for Popes to contradict and repeal one anothers Decrees , that their Platina in vita Stephani saith [ Following Popes do alway either infringe or wholly abrogate the Decrees of the former Popes ] Erasmus Annot. in 1 Cor. 7. See Doctor John Whites way . Dig●ess . 28. p. 104. saith [ Pope John the 22. and Pope Nicolas are contrary one to another in their whole degrees , and that in things that seem to belong to the business of Faith ] Lyra ( in Mat. 16. ) saith that Some Popes have Apostatized . Occham shews that many things in the Docretals do savor of Heresie . One Pope teacheth Emanuel King of Portugal to marry two sisters . * * Os●r . de gestis Emanuel l. 2. Another teacheth our King Henry 8 to marry his brothers wife : And even Pope Paul 4. with his Council of Trent decree , that it should be lawful for him to allow those degrees to marry together , which God in Leviticus had forbidden and to forbid those which God had allowed : which was a judicial error of the Pope and his Council , as many more in that Council were .

But I will add another Argument like the last ▪ which is as followeth .

Argu. 4. If the Pope be infallible , then all the writings of all Popes are of infallible verity : But all the writings of all Popes are not of infallible verity : Therefore the Pope is not infallible .

The consequence of the Major Proposition will be denyed by Bellarmine , unless it be limited to such writings by which the Pope doth teach the Church in matters of faith : Though indeed they will never prove him infallible in Teaching the Church while they confess him fallible in his own judgement , yet let us for disputation sake grant them this : But then ( for the proof also of the Minor ) I proceed thus : All the Theological writings of Leo , Gregory , Gelasius , Nicolus 1. Adrian 6. and other Popes are not infallible : But all these writings were to teach the Church in matters of faith : Therefore all the Popes writings which are to teach the Church in matter of Faith , are not infallible . I think no ●ober Papist will maintain that all these writings are infallible . And that they are written about matters necessary to be believed or done for our salvation , is evident to any man that readeth them . And if they were not written to teach the Church to what end were they written ? Do Popes publish writings about matters of Religion , and not to teach the Church by them ? If they say , it is but to teach part of the Church : I answer . 1. What part is it ? and where is the limitation expressed : for example , of Gregories Dialogues , Morals , de officio Pastoris , &c. 2. The Pope in a Provincial Council may teach but part of the Church , and yet Bellarmine saith that he is there infallible .

Moreover if all the Popes writings be infallible , from his gift of infallibility , then they are equal to the Scriptures ; nay what are they but Gods word , and all Popes are Apostles or Prophets , that is , inspired men ( of which more anon : ) but that s false : Therefore .

Obj. These writings come not from the Pope as Pope , but as a private Doctor , and so he may err .

Answ. Can the Pope lay by his relation when he is teaching the Church , & do it as a meer private Doctor , when he is not a meer private Doctor ? It is a hard strait that the Papists are in to tell us , and themselves , when the Pope teacheth as a private Doctor , and when as Pope ? They are never likely to be agreed about this among them . And all that we have for it , is but the private word of Bellarmine and some such disputers ; but we have no Scripture , Canon , or Decretal , to tell us how we shall know one from the other . If therefore we have no infallible means to know when the Pope teacheth as a Pope , and when as private Doctor , then we have no infallible means to know when he teacheth infallibly : But the former is most certain , therefore so is the later : And so if the Pope were infallible , it would do us no good . If they draw forth rational probabilities , and make every private man judge of them , they may as well warrant men by such means , to judge of the sence of Scripture , which they so much abhor .

Argu. 5. If General Councils be infallible , or to be credited , then the Pope is fallible : But according to one party of the Papists , a General Council is infallible : therefore the Pope is fallible .

The consequence of the Major is easily proved 1. Because General Councils have differed from the Pope . 2. Yea they have deposed divers Popes , and that for heresie : charging divers Articles against them , as also for wickedness of life . The Council at Pisa deposed two Popes at once , Gregory the 12. and Benedict the 13. and in the tenor of their deprivation call them [ Notorious schismaticks , hereticks departed from the faith , scandalizing the whole Church , cut off from the Church , unworthy the Papacy ] a a Theodor. Nicen. de schismate . l. 3. c. 44. p. 91. Antonin . summ hist. part. 3. tit. 22. c. 5. §. 3. The Council of Constance b b Antonin . ibid c. 6. § 2. concil . const. sess. 37. deposed the same Pope Benedict again , commanding all men to esteem him as an heretick and schismatick . The same Council deposed also John 23. accused for holding c c Bim . p. 1584. Conc. Const. and defending as his judgement that there is no eternal life , nor immortality of the soul , nor resurrection of the dead , and so was a stark infidel . Concerning this Pope I would desire the impartial Reader to observe what a miserable answer Bellarmine is put to give ? and whether it do not plainly give up their whole cause ? His words are these ( de Pontif. li. 4. c. 14. ) [ Responde● Johannem 23. non fuisse Pontificem omnino certum & indubitatum , proinde non necessario esse defendendum : erant enim eo tempore tres qui Pontifices haberi volebant : Gregorius 12. Benedictus 13. & Johannes 23. nec poterat facile judicari quis corum verus ac legitimus esset Pontifex cum non deessent singulis doctissimi patroni . ] That is [ I answer that John the 23. was not a Pope altogether certain and undoubted : and therefore it is not necessary that he be defended : for at that time there were three that would be taken for Popes , Gregory the 12. Benedict . the 13. and John 23. and it could not easily be judged which of them was true and lawful Pope , seeing there were not wanting to each of them most learned Patrons ] So far Bellarmine .

Where observe 1. That even learned men , yea General Councils , and the Church may be uncertain which is the true Pope . It s worth the enquiring then , whether they be not uncertain that the Romane succession is interrupted ; and uncertain at that time whether God had any word ? or what was the sence of it ? and whether it was certain to them that the Church failed not , when they had no certainty of the head ? and whether their head and so their Church were then visible or invisible , when they could so hardly be known ? And note , that Bellarmine doth disclaim the Com-popes with this John 23. and saith elsewhere , that it was most likely that this was the true Pope . They have brought their glorious head , Church and infallibility to a fair pass !

Besides this , the General Council at Basill did shortly after depose Pope Eugenius the forth , declaring him to be [ A rebel against the holy Canons , a notorious disturber and scandalizer of the peace and unity of the Church , a Simonist , and a perjured wretch , incorrigible , a schismatick and an obstinate heretick ] * * Vid. Aenaeu Sylvi . gest . Concil. Basil . li. 2. And note that this Eugenius by force kept the Popedome after a General Council had deposed him for these crimes : How then can the succeing Popes have a just title , and Rome pretend to an interrupted succession , or any other Bishops or Presbyters from them ? To this Bellarmine hath not a word to say , but onely that the Council did him wrong , and at Lansanna undid their acts . And thus he is content to grant that 1. A General Council may erre ( which he maintaineth ) 2. And that a Pope may be a heretick and to be deposed in the judgement of a General Council ? And are the Papists forced to yield us thus much ? I would fain know then from Bellarmine or any Papists surviving him , whether that General Councils do erre in faith , and be Hereticks or not , for that their judgement ? If they do so err , then where is the visibility of their Church with the rest of its privileges which they so boast of , when its Representative body , a General Council are Hereticks , as thinking the Pope to be fallible ? But if they erred not de fide , or were no hereticks . 1. Then its seems the Popes infallibility is no fundamental . 2. Then it seems we are no hereticks neither , for denying that which General Councils of Papists ( pretended by them to be General ) have denyed . 3 Nay why should they be angry with men for erring such an error ( as they account it ) which their own general Councils may one after another erre .

Argu. 6. From the Papists own open known confession : If the Papists themselves do confess both Pope and Council to be fallible , they have little reason to blame us for affirming the samewhich they confess : But the Papists themselves do confess both Pope and General Council to be fallible : Therefore , &c.

I do not mean that all the Papists confess it of both , but one part of them confess it of one and the other of the other of them . Bellarmine and his fellow Jesuites with the Italian party do confess that a General Council may erre in matters of Faith : The French and Venetian Papists , with all the Doctors of their party affirm that the Pope may erre and be a heretick , and teach heresie : so that by the confession of one half of them a Council may erre and by the confession of the other half the Pope may erre .

If any imagine that though both may erre dis-junctly , yet not conjunctly , I shall onely now say , that the concession that each of them dis-junctly may err , destroyeth the force of all those Arguments which are brought for their infallibility ; and therefore will prove it of them also conjunctly . But we have yet further proof .

Argu. 7. If the very substance of Popery be nothing but a fardell of errors brought in by the Pope and his Council to corrupt the Christian Religion among them , then certainly the Pope and his Council may erre : But the Antecedent is true : Therefore so is the consequent .

All the Question being of the Antecedent , and it being proved before in the former disputation , and fully by our writers against them , I shall thither for brevity refer you . What impudency is it to introduce such abundance of corruptions contrary to the express word of God and after all this to say , they cannot erre when they have so plagued the Church with their errors ? They teach men to serve God in an unknown tongue , and speak and hear they know not what , to worship the Bread with divine Worship , to receive onely the bread , when Christ ordained that they should have the cup , and so do abolish one half of the Sacrament , they adore the Virgin Mary and other Saints , they plead for justification by the merit of their own works , as having a condignity of the reward ; they make the Church a new thing by making a new head and center of unity and a new and daily mutable Religion , in a word they poison both Church policie , Worship and Doctrine by their errors ; and when they have done they stand to it that they cannot erre . Like a Leper that should maintain he cannot possibly be Leprous , when he is covered with it already : or like a swearing or drunken beast , that should swear that he never did swear nor was drunk , nor ever can be , when he lyeth drunk in the dirt , and breaths out his oaths . What need any impartial diseerning man any other proof that the Pope and the Church of Rome is not infallible , then actually to observe the swarm of their errors that have troubled the Church ?

Argu. 8. If the Popes themselves are to be believed , or if they are not to be believed , they are not infallible . But either they are to be believed or not : Therefore .

If they be not to be believed , what need there any more proof ? If they are , what need there also any more proof , when they themselves confess themselves fallible ? Not a Pope for above six hundred years after Christ did ever pretend to infallibility as can be proved : Pope Adrian the sixth , one of the most Learned and best that ever they had this many hundred years , hath written his judgement that the Pope may erre . And I think he is liker to know himself , as to his infirmities , than any of his flatterers are . His words are these De Sacram. Confirm . art. 4. ad fin . [ Dico , quod si per Ecclesiam Romanam intelligatur caput ejus , puta Pontifex , certum est quod possit errare , etiam in iis quae tangunt fidem ; haere sin per suam determinationem aut decretalem asserendo : plures enim fue●unt Pontifices Romani haeretici ] That is [ I say , that if by the Church of Rome be meant the Head of it , to wit , the Pope , it is certain that he may erre , even in those things that touch the faith by asserting heresie by his Determination or Decretal : for there have many Popes of Rome been hereticks . ] Thus you hear what a Pope sayes of himself .

Argu. 9. If the Pope be infallible , then either it is his mind in believing , or his tongue in speaking , or his pen in writing , that is infallible . But it is neither his Mind , nor Tongue , nor Pen : Therefore he is not infallible .

1. That his mind is not infallible , in point of belief , is confest by the Papists themselves . One part of them saying he may erre , and the other maintaining that he may be a hereticke , and that many have been so .

That his tongue and pen is not infallible when his understanding erreth is plain .

1. In that otherwise he should be infallible in dissembling , and God is feigned to promise a man to keep his tongue from error when he speaks against his own heart ; which cannot be proved , nor soundly imagined .

2. The infallible dictates of the Pope while he erreth in mind should be all either unreasonable acts ▪ as being the words of one that knoweth not what he saith , or interpretatively lies . For when a man speaks contrary to his judgement , if his words be true in themselves yet they are interpretatively lys , because he so takes them , and intendeth them as falshoods to deceive others . For instance , If Pope John the 23. that was deposed by a General Council upon Articles exhibited against him for denying the Resurrection , and the Life to come , should with his tongue have taught the Resurrection and the Life to come ; this had been as lying to him , though the thing it self be most true . And we must have a promise that the Pope of Rome and his Clergy , among all the Lyars in the whole world , shall be the onely infallible Lyars . A happy generation of Lyars sure ? But where is that promise ?

3. It was for the error of the tongue as well as of the mind , that the Clergy desposed Liberius & Felix , and that the Councils of Pisa , Constance , and Basil deposed the other Popes above mentioned . For 1. they could not know their minds but by their words . 2. They charged them with the errors of their tongues as well as mindes .

Argu. 10. If Popes be infallible in the matters which they understand not , then it must be by Enthusiasm or prophetical inspiration . But all Popes are ignorant of many Divine Truths , and some more notoriously ignorant , and yet neither All nor Any of them ( for ought is ever proved ) were Prophets , or divinely inspired : therefore they are not infallible .

For the Major its plain , that as no erring man must speak against his own mind , if he be infallible , so an ignorant man ( in those points ) must 1. either have his ignorance cured suddainly by prophetical inspiration : or else 2. must speak as in an extasie , without or beside his own mind : there being no other way imaginable .

And as for the Minor I prove both parts of it . 1. That Popes are ignorant of many Divine truths , I prove thus . 1. They that are ignorant of many truths revealed in the Scriptures , are ignorant of many Divine truths : For Scripture being Gods word , all that is therein revealed is Divine truth . But Popes have been ignorant of many things revealed in Scripture : therefore I need not sure stand to prove the Minor , for they confess it themselves . And if the Pope understood all the Scripture , he were sure the most damnable sinner in the world , for not revealing his knowledge to others . 2. Yea some of them have been so notoriously ignorant and unlearned that their own Alphonsus a Castro saith ( advers. hares . li. 1. c. 4. ) that [ It is certain some Popes be so unlearned , that they do not understand the Grammar . ] And sure if they that understand not any Hebrew or Greek ( which are the languages in which the Scripture is written ) no nor the Latin Grammar should understand all the Bible and erre in nothing , it must needs be by a Miracle , and by Prophetical inspiration .

2. But that all Popes be not inspired Prophets , nor illuminated by Miracles , I will leave to be judged by the Papists themselves . Read Platina , Stella , yea or Baronius himself , or if they have any other that is a more notorious Parasite to them , and let them be judges .

Argu. 11. If the Pope and his Council be infallible , then it is either in All things that God hath revealed in the Scripture or are necessary to be known , or but in some : If he be infallible in all things necessary to be known , believed , or decided , then will it follow ,

1. That the Pope is the most cruelly wicked man on earth , and the greatest enemy to the truth and Church that will suffer the Church to lye in so much ignorance and contention , and will not reveal the truth to reconcile and enlighten them . Why doth he not write an infallible commentary on all the Bible to perfect our knowledge and end all our quarrels ? And why doth he not write an infallible summary of all his superadded traditions ? Hath not Christ told him that no man lighteth a candle to put it under a Bushel , but where it may be seen of all ?

2. Why doth not one Pope reveal that which they think fit to reveal ; but leave it to successors one after another to do it by degrees ? Dare they say that there is any point of faith revealed in Scripture , and necessary to this age to know , which was not meet to be revealed by the Pope to the last or former age ?

3. Why do so many of themselves , yea their General Councils so much contradict their Popes in many things , if he be infallible in all things ? And all of them confess that either a Pope , or a Council may erre ?

But if it be but some things that the Pope is infallible in , then how shall we be sure which be those some ? Can we know before he discloseth them , or onely after ? I suppose they will say [ It is in all those things which he determineth or declareth ] But if that be the rule to know the extent of his infallibility by ; then I Every Pope beginneth to be infallible , when he beginneth to Determine or declare , and not before . 2. And then every Pope increaseth in his infallibility , as he increaseth his Decretals or Canons . 3. And then one Pope is much more infallible then others , who have made more decrees then others . 4. And then some Popes were never infallible , who never made any decrees or determinations or expositions at all , so that their cause is lost , if their actual discoveries be the Rule of the extent of their infallibility . And yet I cannot imagine what else they can say that may have any appearance of consisting with their interest .

For it is either a Positive or a Negative infallibility which they mean and ascribe to their Church . If a Positive , then 1. All the foresaid absurdities unavoidably follow ; whether they say that they can infallibly teach us all things ( and will not ) or but some ? But if it be a Negative infallibility which they maintain ( viz. that the Church shall never teach any false doctrine ; Or the Pope shall never deceive us by obtruding any error , though withall he may possibly teach us but part of the truth , yea the necessary truth , yea perhaps teach us none at all ) I say , if this be their meaning , then every infant or bird or beast hath as glorious a priviledge as the Pope of Rome : For every infant and bruit is so infallible ; that we are certain they will not deceive the Church by teaching any error .

Perhaps they 'l say that the Pope is positively infallible as a sufficient Teacher of the Church , in all things de fide at that time , or necessary to salvation ; and negatively infallible in all the rest , which are not de fide or necessary : To which I answer : 1. Either such points are de fide and necessary before the Pope dedeclare them so , and he therefore declares them so because they are so : or else he declares them de fide and necessary before they are so , that by declaring them so , he may make them so . If the first , 1. then the Papists have lost their cause ; for that s it which they deny , at least quoad nos , though not in se , as they use to distinguish . 2. And then its plain that no Pope hath been positively infallible in necessariis , or all points de fide : for no one hath declared all , nor are they yet all ( say they ) declared by them , but every Pope may still add more , and who knows when we shall have all . But if they take the later way , then 1. They suppose that Gods word how express soever doth not make a point to be de fide and necessary , till the Pope declare it so ( at least quoad nos : and how it can be de fide and necessary , any other way then quoad nos , they should do well to declare : For that which is credendum , est ab aliquo credendum ( that which is to be believed , must be believed by some body ) and that which is necessary is necessary to some one . ) So that the Gospel shall be no Gospel with them , nor the Law of God any Law , though we read it and hear it a thousand times , till the Pope tell us by parcels the meaning of its particular words and sentences . 2. They make the Popes acts to go before their objects , which is against the nature of actions : while they make him to declare a point to be de fide that it may become de fide . For to declare that it is so , supposeth that it is so , and not onely that it will or shall be so de futuro . 3. And so they make all the Popes infallible Declarations , Expositions , and Determinations de fide , to be Lyes : for if he Declare a thing to be necessary before it is necessary , or declare this or that to be the sence of Scripture , before it is the sence of Scripture , or to be de fide before it be so , what is this but plaine lying ? But if they say that he declareth it to be de fide and necessary onely for the future , and not to have been so before this Declaration , then the forementioned Absurdities fall upon them . And also 1. The Pope is then a Gospel-maker , and the Law giver of the Church , and that in spirituals and internals ; and consequently it is he that is the King of the Church ( who hath the Legislative power , and without whom nothing that Christ hath said shall bind us ) 2. Then the Churches faith is mutable and in a continual change by new additions : For the Decrees or Expositions of every Pope do make more Articles of faith then were before . 3. Then the present Papists are not of the same Religion as their fore-fathers ( or their fore-fathers not of the same with them ) nor do they go to Heaven by the same way : For according to their own doctrine , if the present age of the Church did not believe as de fide many things more then the former ages were bound to believe , they cannot be saved . 4. And then it is evident unmercifulness in the Popes of Rome to make more Expositions , Decrees or Determinations ! and so to make us of this Age , so much work to do before we can get to heaven and scape damnation , which our forefathers never had to do .

I know * * Answer to the Lord Falkland . one of them replyeth to this , that these Additions are no cruelty , because they make not salvation more difficult , but facilitate that which was necessary before ( or to that sence ) But 1. It seems then that somewhat was necessary and de fide before the Pope defined , determined or declared them so : By that time we are plainly told which those points be , the Papist that undertakes and performeth it , will finde himself at a sad loss . 2. But is this man serious ? Doth he think indeed that it is not easier to believe the Apostles Creed , than to believe all that is in the Councils of Trent , Basil , Constance , Laterane , with all the rest , and all the Decretals ( both the Popes and Isidore Meccator's alias Peccator . ) For instance , before the Pope determined the other day for the Molinists against some part of the Dominican , Jansenian doctrine , both parties might have gone to heaven : But now the poor Dominicans , must change part of their doctrine , or go to hell fire . I demand now whether the Popes determination have not made salvation harder to many then before ? I appeal to all the Thomists ▪ Dominicans , Jansenians , whether the Pope hath facilitated their salvation by this determination ? I appeal to Tho. Whites friendly combate with Francisc . Macedo ; & to the late Animadversions of the French Doctors on the Popes determinations .

Further I adde that if all the Popes infallibility Positive be onely in points of absolute necessity to salvation , then many a private Doctor , nay every Christian man or woman , is at present , as infallible as the Pope : for it implyes a contradiction to be a true Christian , and not to believe all that is essential to Christianity , or absolutely necessary to salvation . And if it be not de praesenti & in sensu composito , but de futuro & in sensu diviso that they mean it , that is , that another man may fall from the faith , but the Pope cannot , 1. Clean contrary , we maintain , and the Papists confess , that no elect person shall fall quite from the faith . 2. But a reprobate Pope may : witness John 23. and many another . So much for that Argument .

Argu. 12. If every Pope be infallible ( Positively in all matters of faith , or in expounding all Scripture ) then all Popes are of equal understanding and fidelity in matters of faith , and Scriptures . For the most learned , wise and pious can go no higher , but to be able infallibly to interpret all Scripture , and declare all Gods will concerning our faith and duty . But sure all Popes are not equal . None of those children or dunces that Alphonsus a Castro saith understood not the Grammar , are equal to Pius 2. or Adrian the 6.

Argu. 13. If every Pope be infallible , then study , learning , consultations , yea and Councils are needless : for the most unlearned Pope is as infallible as the most learned ; and after all the study in the world , consultation and advice of General Councils , he can he but infallible ; and so , say they he was before . If they say still , that , before he was but negatively infallible ; I say again , so is a block , an infant or an ideot . But that studies , learning , consultations and Councils are not needless , I suppose all Papists will grant : therefore they must grant that all Popes are not infallible .

Argu. 14. Notorious ungodly men that live in murder , fornication , incest , Sodomy , blasphemy , &c. have no promise from God , nor any other assurance of infallibility : but such were many Popes , Therefore , &c.

The Major I prove from many Scriptures , 2 Thess. 2.10 , 11. Because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved , and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lye . ] They that receive not the love of the truth that they may be saved , are threatened to be given up to delusions ; and therefore have no certainty of being infallible . They that choose their own wayes , God will choose their delusions , Isa. 64.4 . There is no communion between light and darkness , Christ and Belial : therefore no infallibility with the children of Belial . Of all men naturally till Christ illuminate them by special grace , it is said in Scripture that they are blind , deceived , lyars , of no understanding , receiving not the things of the spirit of God , for they are foolishness to him , neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned . 1 Cor. 2.14 . Prov. 28.5 . Rom 3.11 . Prov. 6.32 . & 9.4.10 . & 15.21 . & 7.7 . & 12.11 . 2 Pet. 1.9 . 2 Tim. 3.13 . Tit. 3.3 . It is onely the elect that cannot be deceived even in the foundation , Mat. 24.24 . None of the wicked shall understand but the wise shall understand , Dan. 12.10 . They are threatned to be given over to blindness , that they may not understand , Isa. 6.9.10 . Act. 28.26 , 27 Mar. 4.12 . The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom , Psal. 111.10 . God promiseth to teach the humble Psal. 25. but the proud he still resist , when he giveth to the humble his grace , 1 Pet. 5.5 . Jam. 4.6 .

And not onely the minds of the wicked , but their tongues are deceitful , even when they know the truth , so that a wicked Pope may lye and deceive . Psal. 36.3 . Prov. 12.5 . Mar. 7.22 . Rom. 3.13 . I confess that a wicked man may have some kind of superficial knowledge of all those doctrines ( dis-junctly at least ) which are known to true Believers ; but as he hath no solid knowledge of them , so he hath no promise or assurance of infallibility in that which he is capable of knowing : Nor is it so like that a blind deceitful man should be universally orthodox .

And for the Minor , that many Popes have been notoriously wicked , I need not prove it , while their own Historians and disputers too , do so commonly confess it . It s well known what wickedness the Councils that deposed them charged upon some , and what poisoning , and other murders , Simony , conjuration , incest , common adulteries and other wickedness , is by the writers of their lives and other Historians charged on so many more , that I should but trouble the weary Reader to no purpose to cite them . Read the lives of Pope Sylvester ( the Witch ) the 2. Alexander the 3. and the 6. John 13. and the 22. and the 23. Gregory the 7. Vrbane the 7. &c. in Platina , Luitprandus , Fasciculus temporum , Martinus Polonus , &c. Ticinus hist. li. 6. of * * Vid. Naucler . an. 956. figon . reg. Ita. l. 7. anno . 963. Anton. Chron. pa 2 tit. 16. c. 1. § 16. Bar. an. 964. n. 17 John 13. shews that his sins were proved in Council that he ravished and committed filthiness with maids , widows and wives at the Apostolick doors ; committed many murders ; drunk to the Devil ; and at Dice ask't help of Jupiter and Venus : and at last was slain in the act of adultery . See of Sylvester 2. Fascic . temp. an. 1004. Martin . Polonus Anno. 1007. Platin. in ejus vita . Of Boniface the 7. See Baronius himself anno 985. n. 1. Of Alexander the 6. see Guicciardine hist. li. 1. and Onuphrius vit. Alex. 6. But I will name no more .

Argu. 15. Other Bishops and Churches who have as good a pretence to plead for their infallibility as the Bishop and Church of Rome , are yet generally acknowledged fallible , even by themselves and by the papists : Therefore the Pope and Church of Rome also are fallible .

All that s doubtful is whether any other Churches or Bishops have as fair a plea for infallibility as the Romane ? which I prove thus .

1. The Plea of the Romanists is that their Bishop is the successor of an Apostle who was infallible , and so the Promises belonging to him , do belong also to his successors . And the successors of the rest of the Apostles may have the same plea : For all the Apostles , after the Holy Ghost fell on them , were infallible , as well as Peter : And therefore their successors have as fair a plea as Peters successors .

Obj. But there was not the like promise made to the rest for their successors stability as was to Peter . Answ. 1. There can no greater a promise to Peters successors be shewed , then was made Mat. 28.29 . to them all [ Lo I am with you alwayes even to the end of the world ] 2. The Papists ( according to their new fundamentals ) must not plead Scripture promises for their infallibility ; for they say , their infallibility is in order first known , evidenced and to be proved , before it be known that Scripture is Gods word .

2. The plea of the Romanists for their Popes infallibility is , that he is the successor of Peter . But the Bishop of Antioch might as well pretend to be the successor of Peter , and yet he pretendeth not to infallibility : Therefore , &c. That History which telleth us that Peter was Bishop of Rome , doth tell us that he was Bishop of Antioch also ; yea and that he was Bishop of Antioch before he was Bishop of Rome , so that Antioch is undoubtedly the ancienter Church . What reason then can the Papists give why the Bishop of Antioch might not as well plead that he is Peters successor , as the Bishop of Rome ? Unless they could prove that Peter did by his last Will and Testament bequeath the honor of succession , and the priviledges of infallibility to Rome onely ; which they have not yet ( that I can find ) been so bold as to go about to prove . Otherwise , if one must needs be preferred , why should not the eldest , unless they be disinherited , and the younger hath the blessing , which must be proved . Whence is it but from the honor of their Antiquity that Antioch , Hierusalem , Alexandria , and Rome should be preferred as Patriarchates before all other Churches ? And if Antiquity be a good reason for that , then why should not Jerusalem and Antioch on the same account be preferred before Rome , seeing its beyond all doubt that they were both the more ancient Churches , and Antioch the more ancient seat of Peter , in the judgement of them that make him Bishop of either . So that its clear that other Churches have as much or more to say for infallibility then Rome , who yet make no prentence to it .

Argu. 16. The Apostles themselves were not infallible till the holy Ghost fell on them , nor by any other help without the extraordinary inspiration of the Holy Ghost ( for before , they understood not that Christ must dye , rise and ascend , till it was done : but Peter Mat. 16.20 . disswadeth him from suffering ) therefore the Pope if he might plead succession from Peter , cannot expect more then Peter himself had ; and therefore cannot expect his infallibility without his spirit and inspiration : And therefore those Popes that have not the Holy Ghost , and that inspiration as Peter had , cannot pretend to be infallible , as his successors : For they must succeed him in the cause , if they will succeed him in the effects .

Argu. 17. If the Catholike Church be infallible , then the Pope and the Church of Rome are not infallible : But the Papists say the Catholike Church is infallible ; therefore according to their own doctrine it must follow that the Pope and Church of Rome are not infallible .

The argument being ad hominem and the Antecedent their own , all the doubt is of the consequence : which I prove thus , either it is the real or representative body which they must call the Catholike Church : But both these are against the Popes infallibility : Therefore .

1. For the real , no man can possibly know all their minds , nor ever expect that they should in this life be all of a minde : therefore it is the Major part that we must have respect to , as its usual in all such Bodies , or Assemblies . Now the greater part of the Catholike Church on earth , is and hath been against the Popes infallibility . That it is so now , is well known , seeing all the Greeks , Abassin , Armenian , Reformed and other Churches are far more then the Papists . 2. And that it hath been so formerly the Papists themselves confess . I will note at this time but one of the most learned and sober of them , Melch. Canus Loc. Theol. li. 6. cap. 7. fol. ( mihi ) 201. [ Pugnatum est siquidem vehementer , non a Graecis solum , sed ab aliis plerisque totius orbis apiscopis ut Roman● Ecclesiae privilegium labefactaretur . Atque habebant pro se illi quidem , & Imperatorum arma , & Majorem Ecclesiarum numerum : nunquam tamen efficere potuerunt , ut unius Romani Pontificis potestatem abrogarent — ] That is [ Not only the Greeks , ☜ but almost all the rest of the Bishops of the whole world , have vehemently fought to destroy the priviledge of the Church of Rome : And indeed they had on their side both the Armes of Emperors and the Greater number of Churches : and yet they could never prevail to abrogate the Power of one Pope of Rome ] Mark here that it is only success that he pleadeth , but confesseth that most of the Bishops of the whole world , and the greater number of Churches , besides the Arms of Emperors , were against the Romane priviledges , as they call them , & the Popes power . So that by this you may see the conscience and modesty of these men , that not onely call themselves the whole Church , as if all other besides them were some inconsiderable parcels , but also would make the simple people believe that before Luthers time , there were scarce any that denyed their pretended power : we may see from themselves then where our Chruch was before Luther , so far as Christians opposing the Romish usurpations , are our Church , even most of the Churches and Bishops of the whole world by the Papists own confession . And therefore this may stop their mouthes that use to call out to us for a catalogue of their names ? would they have the names of Most of the Bishops and Churches in the whole world ?

2. And then for the Representative Church if there be such a thing it must be a General Council . And I have shewed before , that many such as themselves call General Councils have contradicted the Pope , deposed , and condemned him . This Bellarmine , Canus and the rest of them do confess , and therefore I need not say more to prove it .

Argu. 18. That General Councils may erre , is proved fully , Vid. Baron . tom. 9. anne 794. n. 1. Bellarm. Append. de Imagin . c. 3. both by the errors that they have committed , and by their contradicting one another . It s too well known that the Arrians had as General Councils as most ever the Orthodoxe have had , Bellarmine and Canus give more instances of erring Councils then can be answered by the contrary minded . Vid. Bellar. li. 2. de Concil. c. 17. Pope Adrian and the second Council of Nice by him confirmed , decree for adoration of Images : And the Council of Frankford determined the contrary , against the said Council of Nice , though the Popes Legates contradicted them . So did the Council of Paris anno 825. Leg. Jewell . Defens . Apol. part 6. c. 17 Divis. 1. & part. 1. c. ● . Divis. 1. & part. 2. c. 3. div. 2. & part. 4. c. 1● . Divis. 1. who examined , judged and reprehended the Council of Nice , and and Pope Adrians confirmation and defence of it ; and therefore Bellarmine saith [ They judged the judge of the whole world ] Their words are recited by Bellarmine Append. de Imag. c. 3. Baronius anno 825. n. 5. It s commonly known , how Nazianzene complained that [ He never yet saw a Council have a good end , but things were made worse by it and not better . ] And Hierom ( in Epist. ad Galat. ) saith [ That is the doctrine of the Holy Ghost which is delivered in the Canonical Scriptures , against which if Councils determine any thing I account it wicked ] Instances of the errors of Councils we have too many . Leg. Joban . Raynoldi thes. 2. pag. 60.61 . ad 68. Lutheru● de Co●cil●is pag. 87 88 , 89 , 90 , &c. The Council of Neocesarea , confirmed by Leo the fourth and by the first of Nice ( as saith the Council of Florence sess. 7. ) condemned second marriages , contrary to Scripture , 1 Cor. 7. Though Bellarmine vainely excuseth them by plaine forcing their words .

The fourth Council at Carthage , forbad Bishops to read the Gentiles Books , which yet the Apostle makes use of , and the Church hath ever since allowed .

The Council of Toletane . 1. Ordain that he wh● instead of a wife hath a Concubine , shall not be kept from the Communion : which Bellarmine also falsly excuseth .

The sixth General Council at Constantinople hath many errors , which Bellarmine confesseth , and layeth the cause on this that they had not the Popes authority : Whereas Pope Adrian approved them * * D●st. 16. c sextam synodum &c. babeo liborum . , and the seventh Council judged them genuine : Adrian saith [ Se sextam synodum cum omnibus canonibus recipere ; he receiveth the sixt Synod with all its Canons and confesseth it to be Divine ] The Council at Constance decreed that a General Council is above the Pope : and the Council at the Laterane under Julius 2. and Leo 10. decree that the Pope is above a General Council Sess. 11. The Council of Calcedone abrogated the Acts of the second Council of Ephesus , and decreed the contrary . The Council of Trent , is notoriously erroneous , and contradicteth the Council of Laodicea and Carthag. 3. about the Canon of Scripture . The number of their contradictions and errors is too great for me here to recite . Many of our writers against the Papists give you large Catalogues and full proof of them . See Doctor Sutline . li. 2. de Concil. cap. 1. What Gregor. Nazianz. And ●ierome say of them , I toucht before : Hilary li. de Synodis exclaimeth against the errors and blasphemies of the Councils of Syrmium and Ancyra : Augustine saith li. 3 cont. Maximni . c. 14. [ Nec ego Nicenum , nec tu debes . Ariminense , ta●quam praejudicaturus profere concilium , nec ego hujus authoritate , nec tu illius , detinenis ] He saith also lib. 2. de Baptis . [ Concilia plenaria priora , a posterioribus emendari ] That is [ Former Councils that were full have been mended by later ] Bellarmines deceitful shifting answers to these testimonies , are not worth the repeating . Isidore saith * * G. Domino . Arist. 50 . ●ex Andradius this●o●t ●o●t . ●bemni● . lib. 1. Quotiescunque in gestis Conciliorum discors st●tentia invenitur , illius concilii sententia magis tenentur , cujus antiquior & p●tior est authoritas ] That is [ As oft as we find in the acts of Councils disagreeing judgements , let us hold the judgement of that Council which hath the more Ancient and the greater authority . ] But the confession of the adversaries here may spare us more labour , who acknowledge that a General Council though rightly Congregated , and though the Popes Legates concur , may yet erre in the faith , if so be that the Pope doth not approve or confirme their Decrees . So that when they say that [ All the Church cannot err ] and therefore a General Council cannot erre ; their own meaning is , that one man cannot erre ; but All the Church ( viz. a General Council ) without him may erre .

Argu. 19. The infallibility of the Pope or Romane Church , was never acknowledged by the Ancient Churches , or Fathers , for six hundred years after Christ : Therefore it is not now to be received .

The Antecedent is so fully proved by our Writers , and so easily discernable by those that read the writtings of those times , that there needs not any more to be said . That which I shall produce to this pupose , shall be anon to prove the following point and this together . In the mean time I refer them to Bishop Jewell , Cham●er , Bishop Vsher , Doctor White , who with many more have fully proved this .

Argu. 20. If the Pope be not the Authorized judge of Scripture , nor our faith to be resolved into his judgement ( or the judgement of his Church ) then is he not the Infallible judge of Scripture , and of controversies about matters of faith . For he that is no judge can be no infallible judge : nor doth he need infallibility to qualifie him for a work which he was never called to , nor doth at all belong to him . It is not the Pope as a private Doctor , or as the Bishop of a particular Church , which is made by them the subject of infallibility , but the Pope as the supposed head of the Catholike Church authorized to interpret Scripture , and to judge of all controversies of faith , into whose judgement ( at least with his Clergy ) our faith , they think must be resolved . If therefore we can prove the nullity of the subject we do thereby prove the nullity of the Adjunct . And this leads us up to the third Question , which we have now to deal with .

Quest. 3. Whether our faith must be resolved into the infallibility of the Romane ( pretended ) Authoritative judgement ? Or whether the Popes Authority and infallibility be the thing first to be known , and thence the truth of Scripture or Christian Religion to be received as upon his judgement ?

But because this is not the principal point intended in this dispute , and because there is enough said to it in the beginning on the by , and because I have said yet more for explication of the whole matter in the Preface to the later Editions of The Saints Rest , I shall therefore say but little to it now , reserving a fuller handling it ( if necessary ) to a fitter season . Only I shall here adde a few more Reasons to prove that the Pope or Romane Church have no such Authority to be judge of Scripture or controversies to all the rest of the Churches on earth ▪ and then I shall adde a few words to prove that we must believe in Christ and receive his doctrine before we believe in the Pope and receive his pretended authority and judgement , that is , without it .

Arg. 1. If the Pope ( or his consistory ) must be the universal Governor and Judge to all the Chrian world , then must the greatest part of the Christistian world be ungoverned and have no recourse to their Judge . But the consequent will be denyed by themselves : therefore we have reason to deny the Antecedent .

The proof of the consequence is most obvious and certain from the Popes natural incapacity and insufficiency for such a work ( and so of his consistory ) It is naturally impossible that the Pope should perform the works of this Government to all the Christian world : therefore the consequence is good . He cannot make known his determinations to all : If all men through the Christian world that have such doubts to be resolved as his Holiness supposeth belong to him properly to resolve , should have recourse to him for resolution , O how much would the wayes to Rome be beaten and frequented ? What a concurse would be about his Holiness doors ? What time would he have to resolve those millions of men : If any differences or difficulties arise in Aethiopia , or at the Antipodes , before they go or send to Rome for Resolution , and receive an answer , the persons are like to be in another world where they will have a more infallible resolution . And if they live to see the return of their messengers , they must take it on the trust of their words , that this is indeed his Holinesses resolution . Hence it is that de facto there is so few people on earth , even of the Papists themselves that are really goverened or resolved by the Pope himself , nor know what he is , or what is his minde : but all is done by his Missionaryes or Delegates ; And if the Pope can delegate his power to others , and make so many others also infallible , then infallibility is not proper to himself : and then why may not the rest of the Bishops of the Church be as infallible , who are sent by Christ , as these are that are sent by him .

Argu. 2. If the Pope be such an universal Governor and Judge , then all Popes must needs be damned for utter neglect of the works of their office . For sure when the wel-fare of the whole Church doth so much depend on the office of the head , it cannot but be damnable in him to be a neglecter of the works of that office to the far greatest part of the Church on earth . But he must unavoidably neglect ( I mean omit ) that work which it i● impossible for him to perform ▪ Therefore .

What I have further to say against the resolving of our faith into his judgement shall be contained in these few Questions following .

Quest. 1. Doth he not contradict the very definition of a Pope , that tells us that we must first believe him to be an infallible Pope , before we can believe the Doctrine of Christ ? For a Romane Pope is supposed to be the Vicar of Christ , the successor of Saint Peter , the head of the Church : And can he be thus known by a man that knoweth not or believeth not that there is a Christ , who is the Saviour and principal head , and who is supposed to send him .

Quest. 2. And doth it not contradict the definition of a Church , to say that we must believe the Church before we can believe the doctrine of Christ ? For what is a Church but a society of Christians , that is , men professing the Christian Faith ? And how can they know that such men are Christians , or profess that faith , before they know what that faith is ? And how can they know that they are to be credited as Christians , before they believe that Christianity it self is of credit ?

Q 3. Is there any man breathing that can bring sufficient Arguments to prove . 1. That there is a Church of Christ . 2. And that this Church is infallible . 3. And that the Pope and Papists are this Church , before their hearers have received or believed the word of God ? If they can , why have they not faln closer to work in this necessary point , when they know how much it would do to the determination of the whole ? If they pretend such Antecedent proof by miracles , as the Apostles proved the Doctrine by , I have shewed the vanity of this pretence ( against Knot ) before : and we must still desire them , if it be miracles that is their first witness , to let us see , or have certaine proofe of those Miracles . We protest to all the world that we are heartily willing to see them and know of them if they be true , but though we have lived in the midst of Papists all our lives , yet could we never to this day see any such matter from them , nor hear so much as of any probable proofs of any . And would they have us in a matter of salvation to believe every pr●ting boaster that will tell us of Miracles and shew us no such thing , nor any proof of them ?

Quest. 4. Whether those that do not go this most absurd way ( of proving their Church infallible to an infidel that yet believeth not Gods word , and so by means antecedent to the belief of Scripture ) must not unavoidably confess that Gods word must be first believed before the Popes or Churches infallibility or authority ( and consequently our faith dependeth not in them , nor is resolved into them ) or else they are inextricably insnared in the Popish circle , and contradictingly do make two primo credenda , the Church or Pope , the first to be believed , and yet the word of God is first to be believed ? And do not Holden , Vane , Knot , and others of them see this , who therefore shun the circle , and use not the old shifts of Becanus and others to blind the eyes of those that see them in it ?

Whether I wrong them H. Holden himself ( an Englishman , and Doctor of Paris , shall be judge , who thus commendeth his own new devised Foundation or resolution of the faith in his Divini fid. analys . li. 1. c. 9 pag. 180. [ Ex quibus patet ha●● Christianae fidei analysim haud in●idore in labyrinthum vulgarem & circulare perfugium , quo solent Theologi passim involvi , qui fidei Resolutionem juxta communem & parum attente examinatam opini●●●● conferuunt as effingunt . Quarenti namque und● noverint scripturam esse revelatum Dei verbum ? Respondent ; ex universae consentientis Ecclesiae assertione . Quibus si iterum fiet interrogatis , unde sciverint unanimeus hanc Ecclesiae Catholicae assertionem esse ab errore liberam seu infallibilem ? Respondent , ex revelat● Dei verbo . Adeo ut non audentes fidem Divinam in certitudine & evidentia naturali fundare , in circulum hunc inevitabiliter illabuntur , & in orbem turpissime saltantes , fidem , quam ipsa prima ratio format & efficit , rationis experem reddunt ; voluntque homines rationales , mentis ac judicii partioipes , in fidei assensu certiores esse , quam vel ratio postulat , vel approbat , Hasitant quippe Theologi quidam asseverare & agnoscere quod omnia argumenta , etiam firmissima , omnesque rationes , item evidentissimae , quibus universam fidei Divinae & Catholicae traditionem solidam erroris immunem & infallibilem esse demonstramus , adeo veritatem hanc evincant , ut nulla prorsue subsit aberrationis facultas ? Ideoque ●pinantu● Christianorum a●imos adhuc ita vacillantes & fluctuantes derelictos esse , ut privatum aliquem & singularem instinctum pernecessarium autument quo omni fidei Christianae assensui certitudo & infallibilitas divina ( at ajunt ) attribuatur . Nos antem levibu● hisce & voluntariis opinationibus fidei divinae & Religionis Christianae certitudinem & soliditatem , inniti aut fundari , nequaquam judicamus .

That is in English [ From hence its evident that this resolution of the Christian faith , doth not fall into the common Labyrinth and circular shift in which Divines are commonly wont to be involved , who do frame and fashion the resolution of faith according to the common and unheedfully examined opinion . For when they are asked , how they know then Scripture to be the revealed word of God ? they answer , By the assertion of the universal consenting Church ? And if they be again asked , how they know that this unanimous assertion of the Catholike Church is free from error or infallible ? They answer , By the revealed word of God , so that not daring to found divine faith in natural certaintainty and evidence , they unavidably slide into this circle , most filthily dancing in a ring ( or round ) the faith , which the first reason formeth and effecteth , they make void of Reason , and would have reasonable men who have understanding and judgment , to be more certain in the assent of faith , then reason doth either require or allow . For some Divines , &c. — ] Here you see a Learned Papist confessing that the Papists are commonly entangled in this circle , and filthily dance in a round , and would make our faith an unreasonable thing . Let Knot note this that would make Chillingworth a Socinian and an Infidel for making faith a reasanable act . And let the common sort of Papists note this that deny faith to have any evidence . And let it be considered according to this mans judgement , on what foundation the generality of Papists do build their faith , and what a faith it is that hath such a foundation . Yea and let it be considered whether the wiser sort of Papists begin not to change the very foundation of their Faith ? And how neer they begin to draw to the Reformed Churches in the Resolution of their Faith ? For this same Doctor doth well disprove the infallibility of the Pope , pag. 179. Saying [ Owne quidem Episcopi Apostolorum successores sunt , Apostolos vere ade● confirmatos in gratia fuisse , ut infallibiles omnino , seu in doctrina Christiana tradenda ab omni erroris periculo immunes fuerint , agnoscit universa Ecclesia . Nunquid ergo omnes Episcopi ab errore liberi ? Omnibus quidem Apostolis revelata fuisse secreta Caelestia , iissque , ut nec decipi nec hallucinari possent ; divina & extraordinaria via donatum esse certissime tenemus . Nun● quid ergo vel summo Pontifici vel caeteris Episcopis haec sunt divinitus concessa privilegia ? ] That is [ All Bishops are the Apostles successors : And that the Apostles were so confirmed in grace , that they were altogether infallible , or free from all danger of error in delivering the Christian doctrine , this the universal Church acknowledgeth . But are all Bishops therefore free from error ? We certainly hold that to all the Apostles the heavenly secrets were revealed , and that by a Divine and extraordinary way it was given to them , that they could not be deceived or erre . But are these priviledges therefore granted to the Pope , or to other Bishops ? ]

And what is the infallibility that this Doctor resolveth his Faith into ? Let it be observed whether it be neerer the Miracles of Knot , or to the universal Tradition of Chillingworth . Pag. 174 , 175. He hath these words [ Statuendum 20. juxta superius stabilita principia , Ecclesia soliditatem in fide , seu in fidei divinae & Catholicae in haerendi certitudinem & infallibilitatem , non in privilegio aliquo aut sedi Romanae , Deo authore , concesso , aut S. Petri successori Pontifici Romano divinitus impartilo , &c. Sed universae & Catholicae traditioni Ecclesia speciali Dei providentia , & Christi Domini promissis fulcitae , praecipue tribuendam esse ] & postea [ Deinde Catholicae & universae traditionis rationem omnibus ommino fidei divinae dogmatibus pernecessariam esse . Traditioniis vero medium seu testimonium ade● publicum , universale , & apartum esse debere , ut sensibus ipsis externis fidelibus omnibus Christianis oporteat constare . ] That is , The Churches infallibility and certainty of faith [ Is not in any privilege either granted by God as the Author to the See of of Rome , or bestowed from God on the Pope of Rome as Saint Peters successor ; but it s chiefly to be attributed to the tradition of the universal and Catholicke Church upheld by the special providence of God , and the promises of Christ — And the account of this Catholike and universal Tradition is most necessary to all points of divine faith . And the means or Testimony of this Tradition must be so publike , universal and open , that it must be manifest to all Christians to their very outward senses .

I confess this Doctor allows us pretty fair quarter in comparison of many others of his party . If they will but give us such Open publike universal certain Tradition , which must be known to the very outward senses of every Christian , we shall be very ready to comply with them in receiving such a Testimony . But if all the Romish Traditions had been such , they would be known to all Christians as well as to the Pope , and not lock't up in his Cabinet , and our selves should sure have known them before now , if we be Christians .

Quest. 5. To proceed , I am very desirous to know whether it be upon the credit of the present Church ( Pope or Council ) or of those former that are dead and gone , that we must receive our faith and the Scriptures ? Or upon both ? If it be on the credit of any former Church , then would I know of which age ? whether of the neerest , or the middle , or of the first and remotest age , that is , from the Apostles and the Church in their dayes ? If from the last age , then 1. How know we their Testimony ? If it be by their writings , Canons or Decrees , why cannot other men who are much wiser and better , understand these as well as the Pope ? And why do they not refer us to those writings , but to their own determinations ? If it be by the Fathers telling the children what hath formerly been believed , then , why cannot I tell what my Father told me , without the Pope , and better then the Pope that never knew him ? 2. And then it must be known upon whose credit the former ages did receive that faith and Scripture which they deliver down to us ? Doubtless they will say , from their predecessors ; and they again from their predecessors , and so up to the Apostles . And why then may not we take it immediately on the credit of the Apostles as well as the first ages did ? supposing that we have the mediation of a sure hand to deliver to us their writings , without meditation of the like inspired prophetical persons , or of any priviledged infallible judge of the faith ; And if it be on this Testimony of former ages that we must receive the Scripture as the word of God , I shall then proceed further to demand .

Quest. 6. Why may not the Greeks , Abassines , Protestants , &c. that acknowledge not the Popes authority or infallibility , receive the Scripture as the word of God , as well as the Papists ? Do they think that none else in the world but they can tell what was the judgement of the former Church ? What records or Tradition have they which all the rest of the world is ignorant of ? Or dare they say ( if they have the face of Christians ) that none of all the Christians on earth , but Papists onely , have any sufficient evidence that the Scripture was written by the Apostles , and delivered from them , and that this is it which is now in the Church ? Can no man indeed but a Papists know the Scripture to be the word of God , upon justifiable grounds ?

But if it be on the credit of the present Church ( or both ) that we must take the Scripture to be Gods word , then I shall further desire to be informed .

Quest. 7. What is it which they call the present Church : Is it 1. The whole number of the faithful . 2. Or a major vote , or part . 3. Or the Bishops , or Presbyters in whole or part . 4. Or a Council chosen from among them , 5. Or the Pope ? If the first ,

Quest. 8 Do they not then make all Christians infallible as well as the Pope . And so they are in sensu composito in the essentials of Christianity and the whole Church shall never deny those essentials , but 1. whole particular Churches may , and 2. the whole Church may erre some smaller errors against the revealed will of God ; the Apostle telleth us that we know but in part ; and as in many things we offend all , so in many things we err all . And moreover if this be their sense .

Quest. 9. Will it not then follow , that the Pope cannot be proved infallible , because it is most certain that All the Church doth not take him to be infallible : no nor the greatest part of Christians in the world . Yea if they will take none for Christians but Papists , yet it will hence follow that there is no certainty that either Pope or Council are infallible . For the French take a Pope to be fallible , and the Italians and others take a General Council to be fallible : and therefore the whole Popish Church being not agreed of it , we cannot be sure that either of them is infallible . And moreover on this ground I demand ,

Quest. 10. How shall we know ( in very many cases at least ) either which is the judgement of the whole Church or of the major part ? What opportunity have we to take the account ? Or can no poor Christian believe the word of God , that cannot take an account of this through the world ?

The same Question also I would put , if they take all or most of the Pastors for this Church .

Quest. 11. But if they take a General Council for the Church , I would first know , How we shall be sure that ever there hath , at least , these thousand years , been ever a true General Council in the world ? The Popish Doctors ( as Doctor Holden de Resolut . fid. li. 1. cap. 9. pag. 156. ) say that [ It must arise to that degree of universality that there may not be any suspicion of conspiracies and combined factions , that so every prudent man may be able heartily to say that the Assemblies are truely General . ] And is it so , when there are none but the sworn obliged vassals of the Pope of Rome , and the Greeks , Ethiopians , Protestants , &c. and most of the Church are absent ? and when it is a known combination to promote their own espoused cause ?

Quest. 12. And then is the whole foundation of Divine faith extinct and lost , when there is no General Council ? It may be we may have no General Council of a hundred or six hundred , or a thousand years together ? Have we no Church then ? Or no certainty of Scripture or of the faith ? If they say that we are certain by the determinations of former Councils , then they speak of the Church that is past and gone , of which I moved the doubts before : And the Canons of these we can read and understand as well as the Pope : But when we appeal to former Councils and Ages , they would hold us to the present Church , and that must be their own : and so be sure to be judges in their own cause .

Q. 13 I would know also whether it were by the judgment of a General Council that the first Churches believed the Scripture to be Gods word ? Did not the Church of Rome believe the Epistle to the Romanes , and the Church of Corinth believe the Epistle to the Corinthians , and so the rest , to be the word of God , as soon as they received them by an undoubted messenger from Paul ? Or did they stay till they had the judgement of a General Council or of all the Churches ? Indeed they made use of the intervening humane ( but certain ) testimony , of him that was the messenger or bearer of the Epistle , to know that it was the writing of Paul indeed : and so we still maintain the necessity of a credible humane Testimony that these writings came from the Apostles hands : But Tychicus , or Trophimus , or Timothy , or Ones●mus , were not a General Council , nor the whole Church And doubtless those Epistles that were written to each particular Church were received by all the rest of the Churches upon the credit of that particular Church as having received it from an Apostle : and not that the particular received it from the universal . How did the universal Church know that those Epistles were written by Paul to Titus , Timothy , Philemon , to the Ephesians , &c. but on the report of the persons and Church to whom they were written ? or else of those particular persons or Churches to whom the Apostle did communicate a copy of them .

Quest. 14. And how did all the Church know the Scripture to be Gods word before the Council of Nice , when there had been no General Council to ●etermine the business ?

Quest. 15. Dare a Papist undertake to justifie at Gods judgement all that part of the unbelieving world , for not taking the Scripture for the word of God , who have seen or heard it , and had all other ●estimonies of it , but never knew of the Testimony of the Pope or a General Council ? Shall none of ●hese perish for this unbelief ?

Quest. 16. And if it be the Pope that they call ●he Church , and take it to be this infallible judge , ● then demand , How knows the Pope that the Scripture is Gods word , or that the Christian Faith is ●rue ? The like also I ask of a Council : How doth that Council know it themselves from whom we must know it ? Either the Pope and Council must believe it because they first believe themselves , and so take it on their own words , or else on the words of some others . ●f the former , then they Believe it because they Believe ●t : then they are the original of their own belief , and believe themselves first , and then would have all the world to believe them . And this is not onely to be ●o arrogant as to be the God of themselves , and the Church , but also so impudent and unreasonable as to believe themselves without reason , and to expect that all others should do so too . But if it be not from themselves that the Pope and Council believe the Scriptures , from whom then is it ? not from any others of the present Church doubtless , therfore it must be from the former Church : And if so 1. Have not we the same means to know that the former Church believed the Scriptures as the Pope hath , and therefore may believe it without recourse to him , and as infallibly as he ? 2. And then it seems that acccording to their doctrine the Pope and his Council receive not their faith or the Scriptures on the same ground as all the rest of the Church must do : so that the Church must have a twofold foundation of her faith , whereof one is necessary only to one part , and not to the other that is , All the rest of the Church must believe the Scripture to be Gods word , because the presen● Pope or Council saith so ( having first believed the infallibility ) but the Pope and Council themselve● need not any such ground of their faith ? And this distinction is not made between the Laity and the Clergy in general : But even the Clergy themselves out of Council , or who never were of the Council ( which sure is more then a hundred for one ) must thu● differ from the Pope and Council in the foundation of their Faith . This is another taste of the famous Romane unity : Paul saith there is One Faith : b●● if two divided Foundations , or Reasons of Belie● do make two Beliefs , surely the Church of Rome hat● two .

Quest 17. Do you believe that the Lord Jes● Christ understood the doctrine of your Papal Authority and infallibility , when he so chid his Apostles fo● striving who should be greatest : and telleth them so expresly , that the Kings of the Gentiles exercise Authority over them , and are called , Gracious Lords : but with you it shall not be so : And when he sets before them a little child , and telleth them that he that will be greatest among them , must be as that child : that is , that humility is the thing that they must strive to be great or excell in , and so to serve one another in love . Also when he commandeth them to call no man on earth Father or Master , that is , of their Faith . Did ever Christ direct the world to go to the Church of Rome to know whether he be the Christ , or whether the Scripture be his word or not ?

Quest. 18. Where is the Faith of the Church when the Pope is dead , and when there are three or four at a time , and when there is an interruption by Schisme thirty years together , as it is known there hath been : Hath not the Church then lost her faith by losing the foundation of it ? Or whether then must poor Pagans have recourse to know that Scripture is the Word of God ? If Infallibility survive in other Pastors , then it seemes it is not the Pope onely that is infallible , but others as well as he .

And was not the Churches Faith resolved into the Infallibility of a Woman in Pope Joanes dayes ? I know the shifts of Bellarmine and Onuphrius to make the world believe that the Story of Pope Joane is but a Fable : Florimondus Remondus is common on this subject .

But the case is out of question thus farre , that we have neer fifty of their own Writers , especially old Historians that give us the History of this Pope Joane ; as Platina in vit. Joh. 8. Sabellicus Enead . l. 1. Antoninus Archbishop of Florence part. 2. li. 16. Chalcondyla li. 6. Marianus Scotus , Martinus Polonus , Fasciculus Temporum , Nauclerus , Volaterane , Textor . Caryon , Sigebertus Gemblacensis , Mat. Palmerius , Massaeus , &c.

And I marvaile why the Papists should be so industrious in refelling it , as if their cause lay more on this then other things . If a Conjurer , a common Whoremonger , a Murderer , a Simonist , a Heretick , may be the infallible judge of the faith , why may not a woman ? Hath Christ laid more on the Sex then on all these ? specially if she had but kept her self honest , I should have thought Joane had been better then John the 22. or 23. and many another that yet was of the more worthy gender .

Quest. 19. And further I would know , If the City of Rome were consumed with fire , or the Pope-dome removed from that Sea ( which Bellarmine confesseth , it is not impossile to be done ) where then were the infallible head of the Church , and what were become of the Romish faith ? If they say that this can never be , and that Christs promise implyeth the preservation of the City of Rome . I answer , 1. It will be long before they will give us any proof of that . 2. Their own writers confess the contrary . 3. Let the end determine it . But if they say that infallibility is not tyed to the place , but to the Person , who shall be Peters successor , I answer , we thought hitherto that to be Peters successor , and to be the Bishop of Rome , had been all one with them . If another man that is no Bishop of Rome may be Peters successor , then how shall we know who have succeeded him all this while ? Why not the Bishop of Alexandria , Hierusalem , Ephesus , or other place as well as the Pope ? specially why not the Patriarch of Antioch , who is said to be the eldest son of Saint Peter , as inheriting his first chaire I doubt , if Rome were extinct , and the Bishop of Mentz , or Cullen , or Vienna , or Rhemes , or Paris or any other should pretend to be the infallible head of the Church , not only the old Patriarchs but their neighbor Bishops would much contradict it ; and the world would be at a great loss to find the Popish faith or infallible head .

Quest. 20. Lastly I will appeal to the conscience of any Papist that hath any conscience left , and hath read the Fathers or History of the first Ages of the Church whether the rest of the Bishops and Curches in those times did believe the Scripture upon the credit of the infallibility of the Pope or the Romane Church ? Did the rest of the Apostles receive the Gospel on the credit of Peter , or were they sent by him ? or did they receive their authority from him ? Do they find that ever the Apostles , or any following Bishops of the Church did take such a course to bring men to the faith , as first to teach them that the Romane Pope or Clergy were infallible , and therefore to perswade them to believe the Scriptures or Christian faith , because they say its true . Is it possible that any learned Papists can seriously believe that this was the ancient way of believing ? Do they think in good sadness that the world was converted to Christianity by this means ? Sure it is scarce possible that they should be so far distracted by their prejudice and faction ? Do they read in Clemens Rom. or Alexandrin , in Ignatius , Justin , Irenaeus , Tertullian , Origen , Cyprian , or any other of those times , that the preachers that went abroad the world to perswade men to Christianity , did ever use this Popish Medium , or go this way to work ? Did they first preach the Pope and Romane Church before they preach't Christ or Scripture ? Did they first preach men into a belief of the Romane infallibility , and then bring them to Christ or to believe the Scripture upon the credit of that ? O that these men would but shew us in what history we may find the reports of this way of preaching ? Or tell us what parts of the world were converted by this argument ?

How many and large Orations , Apologies and other discourses do we find in the Fathers writings for the Christian Faith , to convince the unbelieving world ? in Clem Alexand. Tertullian , Origen , Athenagoras , Tatianus , Minutius Faelix , Arnobius , Lactantius Greg Nazianz. Nissen , Athanasius , Basil , Eusebius , Cyril Alexandr . Augustine , and many others ? And can any man of brains imagin that if the infallibility , ●ea or but the authority of the Romane Pope or Church must needs be known before we can believe the Scripture or the Christian faith , and that it must be received upon the credit of that Church , that all these Fathers and others defenders and propagators of the Faith , would have quite forgotten and left out this great and necessary point ? What! Would all the preachers and defenders of the faith , overlook and omit the very foundation into which all mens faith must be resolved ? Undoubtedly , if this had been then thought to be true which the Papists now teach , we should have had the first part , and a great if not the greatest part of all tho●e Apologies and discourses , laid out in the proof of the Romane infallibility . What man will go to evince a whole systeme of doctrines to be true , and quite forget that medium , by which onely it is first to be proved ? Would not this have found one place at least if not the chief among Eusebius his Preparations or Demonstrations ? Where was there ever in all Antiquity found such an Argument as this to convince an unbeliever ? [ Whatsoever the Pope and Church of Rome determineth is true : But they do determine that Scripture is the word of God , or that Christianity is the right Religion : therefore this is true . ]

Nay further consider : If this kind of arguing had been then used , may not any man see that hath not renounced his wits , that the Heathens would have sorely stuck at the Major proposition ? and that it would have met with so many objections and contradictions from them , that surely we should have found some of them remembred to posterity . Did Julian never stick at this very principle of the faith , the Romane infallibility ? who stuck at so many things in the faith it self ? Or have Cyril Alexandr . and others quite forgot to mention these among the rest of his contradictions ? Did it never come into the mind of Celsus , Porphyry , or any other unbeliever that we read of to doubt of and object against this fundamental infallibility ? O what an incredible thing is this ?

Yea and yet the more incredible will it appear , if you consider , that all the whole cause between the Christians and the Infidels , according to the Popish conceit , must depend upon this one point of their infallibility . For what man will be so mad as to contradict the Church if he once believe that the Church is infallible . Can they think that all the learned Heathens were such fools ? It must needs be therefore that their first stop must be at the Major proposition , even at this principle of the Churches infallibility ▪ and therefore certainly their most objections would have been against it , and the most of the Christian Doctors labor would have been in the defending of it : But that its certain they then believed no such thing , and the Church was at that time utterly unacquainted with the foundation of the present Romish faith .

Moreover , if this Popish foundation had been then known , do you think that the Fathers would not have appealed to Rome , for a decision of all their perplexing controversies ? What readier way to have silenced all gain-sayers , and ended all strifes , and to have saved the labor of so many volumes , then to have bestowed their pains with all dissenters upon this one point alone [ That Rome is infallible ] and then have sent them thither for satisfaction in all the rest . Common reason must needs have told men of such principles , that this was the way ? But do we find that this way was taken ? How come we then to have so many volumes of the Fathers controversal writings , and not one Book , or Chapter , or leaf or line , to prove the Romane infallibility ?

And because the order of our discourse hath brought us up to the judgement of the Fathers , I shall here give you a brief taste of their judgement in this point , and so conclude this argumentation .

In the contention about Easter day between the Eastern & Western Churches , Bellarm. de Verbo Dei li. 3. c. 6. Baron . an. 198. Policrates with the Asian Bishops resisted the Popes judicial determination , anno 198. And therefore doubtless they believed not his infallibility nor universal jurisdiction .

In the Council of Nice , the first that subscribed , was Eustathius Patriarch of Antioch before the Legates of the Bishop of Rome : Theodor. li. 1. c. 7. So did Hosius Bishop of Corduba in Spain , as Athanas . Apolog. 2.

In the Council of Africk the Popes Legates had the last place , Conc. Afric . Baron . anno 258. ● . 15 , 16. spondan . Epit. Baron . 5. & 9. Can. 100. In the Council of Calcedon there was 157. subscribed before Philip the Popes Legate . In the fifth Council of Constantinople , Menna their Bishop was President : Evangri . l. 4. c. 38.

And if the Pope had not then so much as the Presidency , how much less an universal jurisdiction with infallibility ?

When Stephen the Bishop of Rome determined judicially against rebaptizing Hereticks , and excommunicated Firmilianus for not assenting , and wrote to Cyprian about it , what did they do ? Did they either submit to the judgement of the Pope as infallible , or obey him as their universal Ruler ? No , but Cyprian , Firmilian , with the rest of the Bishops , did unanimously joyn against the Popes decree .

I would fain know by what spectacles the Papists can read these words of * * Cyprian . Edit. Pamel & Goulart . pag. 229. Cyprians , to find out their infallibility in them ? In his Epist. 74. ad Pempeium , he saith thus [ I have sent a Copy of our Brother Stephens letters which when you read you will see his error more and more , who endeavoureth to maintain the cause of Hereticks against the Christians , and against the Church of God . For among things which he writeth either proudly or nothing to the purpose , or contrary to himself and ignorantly and unadvisedly , he addeth , &c. ] Here mentioning Pope Stephens pleading of Tradition , he saith [ Whence is that tradition ? Is it from the Authority of the Lord and the Gospel ? Comes it from the commands and Epistles of the Apostle ? For that we must do those things that are written , God testifieth and propoundeth to Joshua saying , Let not this Book of the Law depart out of thy mouth , &c. If therefore it be contained in the Gospel , Epistles or in the Acts , then let this Divine and holy Tradition be observed . — What obstinacy is this ? And what presumption , to prefer Humane Tradition before Divine appointment ? and not to consider that God is angry and offended as oft as humane Tradition doth lose or pass by the commands of God . As Isaiah saith , This people honoureth me with their lips , but their hearts are far from me : in vain do they worship me , teaching the doctrines and commendements of men : and as the Lord in the Gospel reproveth them , Yee reject the commandments of God to establish your Tradition . So Paul 1 Tim. 6.3 . If any teach otherwise , and rest not in the wholsome words of our Lord Jesus Christ , and of his doctrine he is proud ( or lifted up with stupidity ) knowing nothing , from such we must depart . — The custome which hath crept in with some , ought not to hinder the truth from prevailing and overcoming . For custome without Truth , is but antiquity of error , therefore leaving error , let us follow truth . — It is through a study of presumption and contumacy that a man will rather defend his own wicked and false opinions , than consent to anothers that are right and true : Paul therefore saith that a Bishop must be no quarreller , but mild and teachable ; for a Bishop must not onely teach , but be taught . — And there is a speedy way for Religious and simple minds to lay down error , and to find and disclose the Truth . For if we return to * * That is , the Scriptures . the Head and Original of Gods tradition , humane error ceaseth , and whatsoever was in cloudy darkness , it opened in the light of truth — If the water Pipes be stopt , do we not run to the fountain to see what 's the matter . — So now must the Priests of God that keep his commandement , that if in any point Truth have changed or wavered , we may return to the original , even the Tradition by the Lord , by the Gospel and by the Apostles : and the Reason of our action may rise from thence from whence both order and beginning did arise . ] So far Cyprian .

If the Papists can make their followers now believe that Cyprian believed the Popes infallibility , or that the Church of Rome was the onely keeper of Tradition , or that Traditions were not to be tryed by the Scriptures , then you may see to what purpose it is that they must needs be the judges of Controversie and the sence of Scripture , and why they call it a Nose of wax ; even that it may be at their service , and so flexible as to yield to what sence they will put upon it , when they will needs exercise the same Authority on the Fathers themselves who in their familiar Epistles speak as plain as they can .

Firmilianus , a famous Bishop writeth a confutation of Pope Stephens Epistle and therefore took him not to be infallible ; * * Cyprian pag. 236.237 . and he parallell's him with the Ancient Hereticks , Marcion , Apelles , Valentinus , Basilides , as bringing in error under pretence of Tradition as they did . And saith [ And for them that are at Rome , they do not in all things observe those things which were delivered from the beginning , and do in vain pretend the Authority of the Apostles ; as may be seen in that about Easter and about many other Divine mysteries , there are some diversities with them , and they do not equally observe all things as at Hierusalem they are observed . As also in many other Provinces many things are varyed according to the diversity of places and names , and yet no breach of the Churches unity and peace for this . Which now Stephen hath dared to do , breaking the peace with us , which his ancestors kept in love and honor : and moreover defaming Peter and Paul , as if he had this Tradition from them . — And in this I have just indignation at the open and manifest foolishness of Stephen , that he that thus boasteth of the place of his Bishopricke , and contendeth that he holdeth the succession of Peter , upon whom the foundations of the Church are laid , doth bring in many other Rocks and maketh new buildings of many Churches while by his authority he defendeth that there is Baptisme ▪ — And as to the confutation of Custome , which they seem to oppose to truth , who is so vain as to prefer custom before truth ? Or that seeing the light will not forsake the darkness ? Except that when Christ , that is the truth , was come , the most ancient custom would have in any thing helpt the Jews , that leaving the new way of truth , they remained in Antiquity , Which you Africans may say against Stephen , that having knowledge of the truth you have forsaken the error of custome . But we do both joyn custome to truth , and to the custome of the Romanes , we oppose custome but of the truth , from the beginning holding that which from Christ and his Apostles was delivered to us . Nor can we remember any beginning of this — Yea thou art worse then all the hereticks — See then how ignorantly thou darest to reprehend them , who strive for the truth against a lye . For who should more justly be angry with the other ? he that defendeth Gods enemies or he that consenteth ? But that it is manifest that the ignorant are haughty and angry , while for want of judgement and speech they easily turn to indignation ; so that of no man more then of thee doth Gods Scripture say , An haughty man breedeth strife , and an angry man heapeth up sins ( Prov. 29.22 . ) For what strifes and dissenssions hast thou made through the Churches of the whole world ? And how great a sin hast thou heaped on thy self , when thou hast cut off thy self from so many flocks ? For thou hast cut off thy self : deceive not thy self : For he is truely the schismatick , who maketh himself an apostate from the communion of Ecclesiastical unity . For while thou thinkest to suspend all from thy communion , thou dost onely suspend thy self from the communion of all . Can there be one Body and one spirit with such a a man whose soul perhaps is not one , so slippery and mutable and uncertain is it — And yet is not Stephen ashamed to patronize such against the Church , and for the defence of hereticks to divide the brother hood ; and also to call Cyprian a false Christ , and false Apostle and a deceitful worker ; who being conscious that all these were in himself , did by prevention , object all that to another by a lye , which himself deservedly ought to hear ] So far Firmilianus .

The question is not whether Stephen of Rome , or the Eastern Bishops were in the right , but whether these passages do not sufficiently declare , that they had then no conceits of the Popes infallibility ? and that when he excommunicated other Churches , they took it but as an excommunicating of himself , and therefore plainly called him a Schismatick .

In the Council of Carthage , 87. Bishops decreed expresly against the sentence of the Bishop of Rome . And Cyprian in Council speaks thus [ Let every man speak his judgement , judging no man , nor removing any man from the right of communion , that thinks otherwise : For none of us takes himself to be a Bishop of Bishops ; or by a tyrannical fear doth compell his Colleagues to obey : seeing every Bishop hath by licence free choice of his own liberty and power , and can neither be judged of another , nor can judge another : But let us all expect the judgement of our Lord Jesus Christ , who onely and solely hath power to set us over his Church in Government , and to judge of our actions .

If this be not as plain as need be spoken against the Papal usurpation , I know not what can be accounted plain .

Yea Cyprian and the Council say the like to the Pope himself [ These things dear brother we speak to thy conscience for the common honor and for simple love — But we know that some men will not lay down that which they have once drunk in , Cyprian . Epist. 72. Edit. Goularti . nor easily change their purpose , but saving the bond of Peace and concord among Collegues will retain some things of their own , which are once grown into use among them . Wherein we do neither use violence , nor give Laws to any ; seeing that every Ruler ( or Bishop ) hath the free arbitration of his own will in the administration of the Church , as one that must give account of his doings to the Lord. ]

If this be not plain still against Papal , and all Archiepiscopal government of Bishops , I know not how a man should speak plain .

The Council of Carthage ( saith Gratian Dist. 99 ) saith [ Even the Pope of Rome must not be called the universal Bishop . ]

Gregory called the great Bishop of Rome , but a few years before Boniface claimed the universal Episcopacy , wrote thus against John of Constantinople who would have had some such title [ None of my predecessors would use this prophane word ( viz. Universal Bishop ) because if one will call himself universal Patriarch , Greg. Epist. 80. the name of Patriarch is stoln from others : But far be it from a Christian soul that any should falsly ascribe to himself that whereby he diminisheth any thing from the honor of his Brethren To consent to that unjust speech is no other thing then to fall from the faith . One thing we owe to the unity of the faith , and another to suppress pride . And I say boldly that he who calleth himself universal Pastor or desireth so to be called surpasseth the Antichrist in pride — ]

So Epist. 188. l. 6. He saith [ I have said that he cannot have place with us , if he corrected not the vanity of that supersticious and ambitious word which hath been invented by the first Apostate . And to speak nothing of the injury done to your honor , if a Bishop be called universal , that universal once falling the universal Church must also fall . ] Here it is especially to be noted that this very reason by which Gregory condemneth universal Episcopacy , is now used by the learned Papists to prove the Popes infallibity : For they argue that the Pope cannot err de fide in Cathedra , be●ause else the universal Church should fail with him if he fail .

The same Gregory in Epist. 78. saith [ It is a thing too hard to endure that our Brother and fellow Bishop , should be alone called Bishop in contempt of all the rest : And what other thing doth this arrogancy portend , but that the time of Antichrist approacheth already , in so far as he imitated him who disdaining the company of Angels assayed to ascend to the top of singularity ? ]

A man would think that all this should be plain enough to resolve us beyond all further doubting , that the Popes Universal Episcopacy is new . But to t●● the Papis● have no thing to say , but a foolish pretence that John of Constantinople would have been the sole Bishop on earth , and have had no Bishop else but himself alone , which the Pope never arrogated . Ans. A silly shift , which supposeth all the world to be so unreasonable as to be satisfied with any thing , or else would make them so : A shift that hath not a word of proof to support it , but contradicteth the full course of History , and the words of Gregory themselves , which all shew that it was but an universal Episcopacy to which all other should be subject , which John of Constantinople did challenge ; if so much . And all their shew of proof of the contrary is , because Gregory here saith that [ He would be alone called Bishop ] But that s not as if directly in terms , but onely by consequence , he is supposed to lay such a claim , in that he claimed the title of universal Bishop . Vid. Platin. in vita Gregorii . 1. But I now see that the Papists will make a nose of wax of their own Popes Writings as well as of the Scriptures ; and that the Pope hath no more the gift of speaking intelligibly than Peter , Paul or Christ himself is by them supposed to have . And therefore what should they talk any more of a living judge , when that living judge himself cannot speak so as to be understood ?

Platina saith that [ Bonifacius tertius a Ph●ca Imperatore obtinuit , magna tamen contentione , &c. That Boniface the third obtained of Pho●as the Emperor , but not without great contention , that the seat of the blessed Apostle Peter which is the Head of all Churches , inter inter Platina in vit. Bonif. 3. should be so called and accounted of all ; which place indeed the Church of Constantinople did seek to challenge to it self — ]

So that it was the same place or name which the Bishop of Constantinople would have had , which Boniface after got , and not as Bellarmine feigneth , a quite different thing . Nay I cannot perceive any probable evidence that Boniface himself had any thought of that Universal Jurisdiction , which now is arrogated , but onely to be the Greatest and Highest of all Bishops , and in that sence called the Head or the universal Bishop .

If they knew the Pope to be the supreme infallible head of all the Church , why did the Council of Calcedon ( the fifth general Council ) examin Leo's Epistle , Vid. Binnium Tom. 2. Conc. part 1. art. 4. Conc. Calced. p. 218. & part . 2. Art. Conc. gene. 5. Collat. 6. p. 101. & Collat. 8. p. 113. Vid. Constitut. Vigil . in Binnium Tom. 2. part . 2. p. 25 , 26. & Baron . anno . 553. and profess to recive it onely on its agreement with former doctrine ? Yea why did this Council condemne Pope Vigilius his judicious sentence de 3 capitulis ? Yea and anathematize all that condemned not Theodorus , of whom Vigilius was one ? and this in a Doctrinal Point , Whether Hereticks may be condemned after death ? Yea they pronounce the Pope and his adherents defenders of impiety , and such as cared not for Gods decrees , or the Apostles pronunciations , or the Fathers Traditions . If these 165. Bishops had believed the Popes infallibility , they would rather have craved his Definitive sentence . And why did the Council of Calcedon also Decree without the Popes consent , that the Bishop of Constantinople was equal with him ; and the 5-sixth general Council confirm it ?

Any man of understanding that readeth over the Decretals of the several Popes shall find besides all other errors , so many false expositions of Scripture , even common reason , and the Papists themselves being judges , that there needs no other proof that they are too fallible .

Augustine in l. 2. August . li. 2. Contr. Donatist c. 3. de Bapt. pag. Edit. Paris . 40. Contr. Donatist . saith [ Ipsa concila qua per singulas regiones , &c. That is , Who knoweth not that the very Councils themselves which are held in several Regions or Provinces , do without more ado yield to the authority of fuller Councils which are made out of the whole Christian world ? And that the full Councils themselves which were before are oft * * Or Corrected . mended by the later , when by some experiment of matters that is opened which before was shut up , and that is known which lay hid , and this without any smoak of sacrilegious pride , without any inflation of arrogancy ▪ without any contention of livid envy , with holy humility , with Catholike peace , with Christian charity . ]

This he brings as a majore to shew the Donatists the invalidity of Cyprians authority , telling them that it is the holy Scriptures that are undoubted and of unquestionable credit , but not the writings of any Bishops since , no nor of Councils themselves .

This place of Austin doth confirm the French Papists as well as the Italian , that they have nothing to say against it , that without meer impudency can be thought to be of any weight . What is vainly said by them , you may see answered in A.B. Laud's Book against Fisher and A.C. Pag. 240 , 241 , 242.

In Austines Book against Petilianus the Donatist the very question debated , is , How they may know where the true Church is ? And is it not a wonder that Austin never remembred to direct them to Rome , or to the Popes infallibility , if that had been the approved way ? Here then what way Austin went Cap. 2. August . Cont. Petil. Don. c. 2. & 3. pag. ( mihi Edict . Paris ) 141. Quaestio c●●te inter nos versatur , ubi sit Ecclesia ? utrum apud nos , an apud illos ? — Quid ergo facturi sumus ? in verbis nostris eam quaesituri , an in verbis capiris sui Domini nostri Jesu Christi : & puto quod in illius , &c , that is , The question handled between us is where is the Church ? with us or with them ? What must we do then ? must we seek it in our words , or in the words of our Lord Jesus Christ our head ? I think in his who is truth it self , and best knows his own body , 1 Tim. 3. The Lord knoweth who are his — ] Cap. 3. p. 142. Sed ut dicere caeperam , non audiamus , haec dico , haec dicis , sed audiamus , haec dicit dominus , &c. That is , But as I began to say , Let us not hear , I say this , and you say that , but let us hear , Thus saith the Lord . There are certainly the Lords Books , to whose authority we both consent , we both believe them , we both obey them ; there let us seek the Church , there let us discuse our cause . — Auferantur , ergo illa de medio , &c. Away with those things from among us , which we bring against one another , not out of the Divine Canonical Books , but from elswhere — Quia nolo humanis documentis , &c. Because I will not have the holy Church to be demonstrated by humane documents , but by Gods Oracles . For if the holy Scriptures have placed the Church in Africa alone , and in a few places of Rome , &c. then whatsoever may be brought out of other papers , the Church is onely with the Donatists . Si autem , &c But if the Church of Christ is placed by the Divine and most certain testimonies of the Canonical Scriptures in all Natitions ; then what ever they bring , and whence ever they recite it , who say , Lo here is Christ , or lo there ; let us rather , if we be his sheep hear the voice of our Shepherd , saying , Believe them not . For those parcels are not found in many Nations , where that ( Church ) is : but it , which is every where , is found even where they are ; therefore let us seek it in the holy Canonical Scriptures . ]

And thus he goes on and proves at large by the Scriptures the true Church ; fitting all as meet to the present schisme of the Papists , almost as if he had seen and named it .

Cap. 18. Begins thus [ Because therefore the holy Church is manifestly known in the Scriptures , &c. ] Remotis ergo omnibus , &c. Laying aside therefore all such matters , let them demonstrate their Church if they can ; not in the speeches and rumors of the Africans , not in the Councils of their Bishops , not in the writings of any disputers , not in signes and fallacious Miracles , because we are prepared and cautioned against such things by the word of God : Cap. 18. but in the writings of the Law , in the predictions of the prophets , in the Psalms , in the words of our Pastor himself , in the preachings and labors of the Evangelists , that is , in all the Canonical authorityes of the sacred Books . ]

Next he shews that it must not be out of Parables , Allegories or such Scriptures that make no more for one side then the other ( what then ? doth he tell them that it is all such , and send them to Rome to know the sence ? no ) but it is the plain Scripture of which he produceth abundance that must tell us which is the true Church . And he thus begins the 19 Chap.

Omissis ergo , &c. Letting pass therefore the snares of delayes let him shew their Church , Cap. 19. pag. 154. &c. and so shew it , as not to say , It s true , because I say it , or because my collegue said it , or these collegues of mine , or those Bishops , or Clerks , or our Layity , or therefore its true * * How fit is this wedge for Master Knot if he will but apply it , it may easily cleave his new foundation of the faith . because these or those wonders were done by Donatus or Pontius , or any other , or because men pray and are heard at the Memories ( or shrines ) of ours that are dead , or because such or such things happen there , or because that brother of ours , or that sister of ours saw such a sight waking , or had such a dreaming vision sleeping . Away with these either fictions of lying men , or wonders of deceiving spirits : For either the things that are said , are not true , or if any wonders are done by hereticks , we must the more beware , seeing the Lord when he told us there would come deceivers , who by doing certain signs would deceive if it were possible , even the elect , addeth , Lo I have foretold you , — And if any be heard praying at the Memories of hereticks , it is not for the desert of the place , but the desert of his desire that he receiveth good or evil . — No man can have Christ for his head , that is not in his Body , which is the Church : which ( Church ) we must know as we do Christ himself in the sacred Canonical Scriptures , and not to inquire into the various rumors of men and their opinions , and deeds , and sayings , and sights . — But let them shew me whether they have the Church , no way but by the Canonical books of the divine Scriptuers : Because neither do we therefore say , that they ought to believe us that we are in the Church of Christ , because that ( Church ) which we hold is commended by Optatus Melevitanus , or by Ambrose of Millan , or innumerable other * * Was the Pope of Rome none of those innumerable Bishops of the Church ? Bishops of our communion , or because it is predicated ( or praised ) by the Councils of our Collegues , or because through the whole world in the holy places which are frequented by our communion , so great marvailes of hearings , or healings are done ( here some are named . ) What ever things of this sort are done in the Catholike Church , ☜ are therefore to be approved , because they are done in the Catholike Church , but it is not therefore manifested to be the Catholike Church , because these things are done in it . — This he testifieth is written in the Law and the Prophets and Psalms ; this we have commended by his own mouth . These are the documents of our cause , these are its foundations , these its upholders ( or confirmers . ) We read in the Acts of the Apostles of some Believers , that they daily search't the Scriptures whether those things were so : What Scriptures ? but the Canonical of the Law and prophets ? Hereto are added the Gospels , the Epistles of the Apostles , the Acts of the Apostles and the Revelation of John . Search all these , and produce somewhat manifest which will demonstrate that the Church either * * Or Rome . remaineth in Africke alone , or is to be from Africk , so that it may be fulfilled which the Lord saith , This Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world , &c. But bring somewhat that needeth nor an interpreter , that you may not be convinced that it speaks of another matter , and that you strive to turn it to your own sence * * Like the Papists , Pasc● oves meas : &c. es P●trus , &c. — ] Chap. 25. [ The question is not dark in which they may deceive you — You see the Church is every where diffused , and increaseth to the harvest . ]

This whole Book of Austin is written , as if it had been purposed as a confutation of the Papists that will have the Church to contain onely the Romane faction , and exclude all the rest of the world , and will try the Scripture by the Church , and not the Church by the Scripture , but fly to I know not what visions and pretended miracles to prove their Church which Austin professeth are not a proof no not of the true Church , though there be much more then there to boast of : so that the Papists cannot here say that Austin thus dealeth with the Donatists because they denyed the Church of Rome and believed the Scripture : he expresly enough preventeth all such expositions of his words .

August . Cont. Crescon li. 2. c 33. August . con. Cresconium li. 2. cap. 33. p. 177. Saith [ Ego hujus Epistolae , &c. I am not bound by the authority of this Epistle ( of Cyprians ad Jubai : ) because I take not Ciprians Epistles be Canonical , but by the Canonical I consider them , and that in them which agreeth to the authority of the Divine Scriptures , I accept with his praise , but that which disagreeth I refuse with his peace . And so if thou hadst recited those things which he wrote to Jubajan out of some Canonical book of the Apostles or Prophets , I should have had nothing at all to gain-say : But now , seeing what thou recitest is not Canonical , by that liberty to which the Lord hath called us , I refuse it , &c. ] And he compareth it to Peters compelling the Gentiles to Judaize Gal. 2. shewing that even Peter should have been so refused in error .

The words of Austin in Epist. 19. ad Hieron . are commonly cited [ I have learned to give onely to those writings which are now called Canonical , August . ad Hieron . Ep. 19. this reverence and honor , as that I dare say , that none of them erred in writing : but others I so read , that how holy and learned soever they be , I do not therefore think it true , because they so judged , but because they perswade me either by those Canonical books or by probable reason that they say true . ]

As commonly cited is that li. 3. Cont. Maximin . Arrian . c. 14. pag. ( mihi ) 306. August . cont. Maximin . l. 2. c. 14. Vid eti●m August . in Psal. 21. expos●t . 2. [ Sed nunc nec ego , &c. But now neither ought I as fore-judging ( or for prejudice ) to bring forth the Nicene Council , nor thou the Council of Ariminum ; I am not bound by the authority of this no● thou of that . Let matter contend with matter , caus● with cause , reason with reason , by the authoritie of the Scriptures , which are witnesses , not proper to either of us , but common to both . ]

It were too long to recite the fourtieth part which Augustine hath to this purpose . He that would se● more , let him read his Epist. 112. & de Morib . Eccles● Cathol. c. 7. & Epist. 111. & Contr. Faustum li. 11. c. 5 & de Trintat . li. 3. &c.

The words of Optatus lib. 5. advers. Parmen . ar● frequently cited by our writers : which are thu● [ Quaerendi sunt judices , &c. We must seek judges . Optatus li. 5. advers. Parmen. I● Christians , they cannot be admitted on either side , because by siding the truth is hindred . We must seek a judge abroad ( or without . ) If a Pagan , he cannot know the Christians secrets . If a Jew , he is an enemy to the Christian Baptism . On earth there can no judgment of this matter be found . We must seek a Judge from heaven . But wherefore should we go knock at heaven , when we have it here in the Gospel ? A Testament ( I say , because here we may well compare earthly things to heavenly ) is such , as that a man that hath many sons , doth command them all himself as long as the father is present : Vid. A.B. La●d against Fisher . and A.C. pag 194. vindicating this . there is then no need of a Testament . So Christ , as long as he was present on earth ( though yet he be not wanting or absent ) commanded the Apostles whatever was needful , for the time . But as a father when he feeleth himself neer to death , fearing lest after his death , the Btethren should unpeaceably quarrel , doth before witness put his Will out of his dying brest into writings which may endure . And if there shall rise any contention among the Brethren , they go not to the Grave , but seek the Testament ; and he that resteth in the Grave doth silently speak by the writings . The Living ( Lord ) whose the Testament is , is in heaven . Let his will therefore be sought in the Gospel , as in a Testament . ]

The Author of the imperfect work on Mat. commonly imputed to Chrysostome Homil. 49. saith [ At this time , since heresie hath possessed these Churches , Opus imperfect . in Math. Hom. 29. there can be no proof of true Christianity , nor any other refuge of Christians , that would know the truth of Belief , but the Divine Scriptures . For before it was declared by many means , which was the Church of Christ , and which was Gentilism . But now it is by no way known to them that would know , which is the true Church of Christ , but only by the Scriptures . — How therefore should he that would know which is the true Church of Christ , come to know it , but onely by the Scriptures ? ]

One would think this were plain enough , if the Papists were not the Judges of the meaning of all writings , as well as the holy Scriptures , which condemne their cause ?

Junilius ad Primasium ● part . divin . legis li. 2. Junilius ad Primal . li. 2. qu. 29. qu. 29 Saith . [ Vnde probamus libros , &c. How do we prove that the Books of our Religion are written by Divine inspiration ? Many wayes , of which the first is the truth Scriptur● it self , then the order of things ; the agreement o● precepts , the manner of speech without affectation ( or compasses ) and the purity of words ; Ther● is added also , the quality of the writers and preachers ; that meer men could not have delivered such Divine things , and vile men such high things and uneloquent men such subtile things , unless they were filled with the Holy Ghost . And the force o● the preaching of it , which it had when it was preached , though by a few contemned men . Hereto is added the witness of the contrary party , as the Sybils or Philosophers : the expulsion of adversaries ; the utility of the consequents , the event which by acceptations and figures and predictions were foretold : and lastly the Miracles which were continually wrought till the Scripture it self was received by the Nations : of which this sufficeth for the next Miracle that it is known to be received by all . ]

Saith Chamier citing this passage , Here are arguments enough to prove the authority of Scripture , Vil. Scot. in ●●nt . Prolog . qu 2. internal and external ; but no mention of the Churches antecedent judgement to determine it . The same may be said of Eusebius , Anstia and the rest that prove the Scripture and Christian Religion .

Hieromes words are frequently cited on Math. 23. [ Hoc quia de Scripturis , Hierom. in . Math. 23. &c. This is as easily contemned as proved , because it hath not authority from the Scriptures . ] And on Isaiah 8. He saith [ Side aliquo dubitatis , &c. Hierom. in Isa. 8. fol. ( mihi ) 18. If you doubt of any thing know what is written — If you would know the things that are doubtful , rather give up your selves to the law and to the testimonies of the Scriptures . ] And on the 86. Psalm , He saith [ Quamvis sanctus aliquis , &c. Idem in Psal. 86. Idem Epist. ad Rusticum , Idem ad Evagr. Though there be some Saint after the Apostles never so eloquent , yet he hath not authority . ] And Epist. ad Rustic . [ Since covetousness entered into the Church as into the Empire , the Law is perished from the Priests , and the vision from the Prophets . ]

And the same Hierome Epist. ad Evagr. ( fol. 150. Edit , Basil . per Froben , 1516. Tomo . 3. & pag. 329. Edict . Basil. 1536. Tomo . 2. ) Saith thus [ Quid ●uim facit excepta ordinatione Episcopus , quod presbyter non faciat ? Nec altera Romana urbis Ecclesia , altera totius orbis existimanda est : Et Gallia , & Britannia , & Africa , Erasmus in his first Annotations saith that [ hac oli●● sort●sse vera ▪ nunc magna ex parte commutata sunt , viz. Quod aequat Eugubiensem Epi copum cum Romano , nec putat ullum Episco●um alio majorem esse nisi qu●tenus superat humilitate , & non pu●at . Episc●pum quovis sacerdote prestantiorem esse , nisi quod jus habet ordi●andi . ] But in his latter Annotations he merrily referreth all the equality in their respect to the Deacons , that he might 〈◊〉 to abate the offence . & Persis , & Oriens , & Judia omnes Barbarae nationes , unum Christum ad●rant , unam observant regulam veritatis . Si Authorit●● quaritur , Orbis major est Vrbe . Vbicunque fuerit Episcopus , sive Romae , sive Fugubii , sive Constantinopoli , sive Rhegii , sive Alexandriae sive Tanis , ejusdem meriti , ejusdem est & sacerdotii . Potentia divitiarum , & paupertatis humilitas , vel sublimiorem vel inferiorem Episcopum non facit . Caeteram omnes Apostolorum successores sunt . Sed dicis , Quomodo Romae ad testimonium Diaconi presbyter ordinatur ? Quid mihi profers unius urbis consuttudinem ? Quid paucitatem , de qua ortum est supercilium in leges Eccesiae vindicas ? ] That is [ For what doth a Bishop except ordination which a Presbyter may not do ? Nor is the Church of the Romane City to be esteemed one and the Church of the whole world another : Both France , and Brittaine , and Africk , and Persia , and the East , and Jndia , and all the Barbarous Nations do worship one Christ , and observe one Rule of truth . If you seek for Authority , the worlds is greater than the Cities ( of Rome ) Wherever there is a Bishop , whether at Rome , or at Eugubium , or at Constantinople , or at Rhegium , at Alexandria or at Tanis , of the same Merit , he is also of the same Priesthood . The Power of riches , and the lowness of poverty , make not a Bishop high-eror lower : But they are all the Apostles successors . But you say , Baronim ad Tom. 402. pag. ( mihi ) 160 To. 5. & ita Tom. 1. Doth in vain seek to ●void the force of this passage , as if the equality were only quoad sacros ordines . It seems the Popes juri●diction is no part of his office , nor belongeth to him by ●●●ted orders . How is it that at Rome a Presbyter is ordained on the testimony of a Deacon ? What tell you me of the custome of one City ? why do you defend a few ( of which superciliousness is arisen ) against the Laws of the Church ? ]

It may be the Papists by their supereminent power of interpreting all Church writers , can put such a sence on these words of Hierom , as shall consist with that which he purposly doth oppose : But I think an impartial man can hardly believe that when he wrote these words , he was acquainted with Romes claim of universal jurisdiction and infallibility .

Nay when it is the scope of much of the former part of this Epistle to prove the equality of Bishops and Presbyters , in the beginning , and that at that time they differed in no power but that of ordaining ( when yet he saith the Presbyters of Alexandria did long make their own Bishops ) how then could Hierome believe the Popes universal jurisdiction ? Could he think that the Bishop of Rome had that power over the Church which he thought not any Bishop to have over the Presbyters of any one Church ?

Greg. Nazianzene saith of Councils [ If I must write the truth , Nazianzene Bellar. li. 2. de concil . e. 7. pag ( mihi ) 121. I am of this mind , that I will flye or avoid all Councils of Bishops : for I never saw a glad or happy end of any Councils , or which did not rather bring an addition or increase of evils , then a removal of them . ] To this of Nazianzene Bellarmine answereth that [ Gregory meant that in his time no Council could be wholly lawful : for he lived between the first and second general Council , where he had seen many Councils which because of the great number of Hereticks had a bad end . ] And he names five of them .

Answ. 1. But by what Authority doth Bellarmine confine Gregories words to some Councils , which he speaks in general of all that he had seen or might do resolving to avoid all hereafter . 2. Here note that Bellarmine confesseth that Councils may erre ; and then where is the French Religion ? 3. I would fain know where was the Churches infallibility , and power of judging of matters of faith in Nazianzens dayes ? If there were no lawful General Councils , nor could be , then it was not in them ; therefore it must be either in the people ( and how shall we gather the world together to consult with them ) or else as Bellarmine will say , in the Pope alone , or in the Romane Clergy with him . Why did Nazianz. never remember , when Councils all failed , and the Pope was the onely living fallible judge , to have pleaded this with the Hereticks , and to have sent them all to Rome instead of the Councils . I hear not yet that they are very forward to prove that the Romane Clergy in particular are Infallible ( though Bellarmine hath given us his bold conjectures of that ) It must needs be therefore that at that time all the Churches infallible judicial power , and so the foundation of our faith must be resolved into the Pope alone ; and so the faith of all the world must then be resolved into the credit of the word of a single and silly man . I know the Italian faction will not abhor this at any time ; but then they should for shame speak out and deal plainly with the world , and not talke of the whole Church and all the Church , when they mean but one man . 4. And I would fain know of any friend of Bellarmines , how far the universal Church was visible at that time , when all Councils were bad , and none could be lawful ? The visibility was not in a Council to represent the whole : and the ●aity are not much noted when Councils go wrong , ●o that the Church was visible onely in one man , or ● few particular persons , according to the Papists common reckoning , who judge by the Pastors visi●ility : Yea the Church of Rome it self was invisible ●hen and divers times when their Bishop was a Here●ick . If therefore they will say either that the Church was visible in one man , or in the Laity of many partes opprest by the Clergy and Magistracy and they have nothing more to say ) then we will ●ay as much of the visibility of our Church before Luther , and more too . 5. It s confest here also that ●ot onely a Council , but the greater number ( by ●ery many ) of the Bishops of the Church may be ●eretickes or erre in faith . 6. And then the Church may lye in the smaller oppressed part : and why then may not the most erre now ? * * Stapleton de princip. doctrin . li. 2. cap. 18. Hieron . Dialog. advers. Lucifer . Stapleton himself confesseth ●hat Luther was not much out of the way , when he said , ●here were scarce five Bishops ●o be found that turned not Arrians . And Hierome●aith ●aith Dialog. advers. Lucifer . ) [ The whole world ●●aned , and wondred that it was turned Arrian . ] ● . And did the authority of the Scripture at that time ●ll quoad nos , when the judge was turned heretick ? ●ven Liberius and the Councils ?

And if the high Elogies of the Romane Church would prove its Authority , then see what Nazian●ene , saith of the Church of Caesarea . In his 22. Epistle ad Caesarienses patris nomine scripta ( found among his own works , Edit Paris . Tom. 1. Greg. Naziazen . Epist. 22. To. 1. p. 85. pag. 785. and also in Basils works translated by Musculus Edit. Basil . 1565. Tom. 2. pag. 17. [ Seeing every Church as being Christs body is to be watched over ( or looked to ) with greates● care and diligence , then specially yours , which anciently was , and now is and is esteemed , almost ( o● nigh ) the mother of all Churches , on which th● whole Christian Commonwealth doth cast their eyes even as the encompassing circle doth on the center , not onely for the soundness of doctrin● long divulged to all , but also for that conspicuou● grace of Concord which God hath given them . ] What would the Papists say , but that this were fo● their supremacy , if they found but this much in him for the Church of Rome .

And I think there is no doubt but that in thos● ancient times the Church was acquainted with th● true way of Government as well as Rome is now and therefore I would know further . 8. Whether th● truest Government may not stand with great desolations , divisions of the Church and multitudes of errors ? Greg. Nazianzene saith ( Orat. 20 pag. mih● 345. Nazianz. Orat 20. p. 345. ) That when Basil se● upon the great work of healing the Church [ The holy Nation , the Kingly Priesthood was so far amiss that it was distracted into six hundred opinions and errors ; And spoiled and wasted by the Devil . ] If the Popes Monarchical Government was then a foot , then it seem● that Government will no more prevent sects and errors then the worst : If it were not , then 1. They are now usurpers , 1. And they cannot prove ou● way of Government to be wrong by the multitude of errors that are in the Church .

Basil was far from resolving his faith into the Popes infallibility when he wrot his Ascetica ( or at least Eustathius Sebastienus , if they be his ) when ( pag. 195. Basil , Mag. To. 2. Ascet . p. 197. Tom. 2. translat . Musculi , Basil ) he saith [ It is a manifest lapse of faith , and apparent vice of pride , either to refuse any thing which the Scripture containeth , or to bring in any thing which is not written : seeing Christ saith , My sheep hear my voice , and premiseth , But another they will not follow , but flye from him , because they know not a strangers voice . ] And pag. 193. he saith , that sometimes he had used unwritten sayings against hereticks [ But never aliene from the Scripture sence , &c. ] and that now he was resolved [ To make use of what he had learned from Scripture , and but sparingly , to use the very names and words which are not literally conform to the divine Scripture , though they do retain the Scripture sence . ] The same Basil Epist . 80. To. 2. p. mihi . 74. Basil To. 2. Epist. 80. ad Eusta●hium Medi●um . renouncing the argument from custome , saith [ Let us stand therefore to the arbitration of the Scriptures inspired from God : and with whomsoever is found the opinions which are agreeable to the Divine oracles , to him let the sence ( or sentence ) of truth be wholly adjudged . ] This is Basils judgement of the judge of controversies .

Hilarius Pictav . in his Hilarius Pictav . Edit. Paris . 1531. pag. 318 , &c. Idem de Trinit. li. 2. p. 16. Idem ●● Mat. p. 498. Epistle de Synodis adversus Arrianos pag. ( mihi ) 318 ▪ 319. and fully sheweth his thoughts that Council● have erred , and that even those of the Orthodox are to be tryed by the Apostolical doctrine . And lib. 2. de Trinitate pag. 16. col. 2. he saith [ Commendat autem fidei hujus integritatem , &c. The integrity of this faith is commended by the Authority of the Gospel and Apostolical doctrine — For this foundation standeth strong and unmoved , &c. ] And he maketh it a remedy against all Heresies .

And in his Commentary on Mat. Canon . 8. pag. 498. he saith [ Igitur secundum haec Ecclesiae intra quas verbum Dei non vigilaverit , naufragae sunt , &c. i. e. The Churches in which the word of God doth not watch , are shipwrackt . ]

And most fully lib. 4. de Trinitate pag. 31. col. 2. Nemini autem dubium esse oportet , &c. that is , No man ought to doubt but that we must use Gods doctrine for the knowing of divine things . For humane weakness cannot of it self attain the knowledge of heavenly things . — It is God himself that we must believe concerning himself , and those things which he offereth to our knowledge , of himself , must we obey . For either we must deny him as the Gentiles do , if we disallow his testimonies ; or if he be believed to be God , as he is , nothing of God can be understood , but as he hath witnessed of himself ; Let mens own opinions therefore cease ( or be laid by ) and let not mens judgements extend themselves beyond Gods constitutions — For the understanding of sayings , must be fetcht from the causes of the speech , because the thing is not subject to the words , but the words to the matter ]

And li. 4. de Trinitate , pag. 29. col. 1. when he sheweth that the hereticks use to plead Scripture misunderstood , he doth not send them to Rome for a judgement of the sence ▪ but still concludeth [ Respondendum esse existimo haereticorum perversitati , & omnes corum stultas ac mortiferas institutiones Evangelicis atque Apostolicis Testimoniis coarguendas : That is , I judge that we must answer hereticks perverseness , and all their foolish and deadly institutions , by the testimonies of the Gospel and of the Apostles . ]

And the same Hilary doth largly perswade to a close adhering to the Gospel , Hilary ad Constant . Imper. pag. 307. &c. and the sum of Faith called the Apostles Creed , without adding or altering , under any pretence of amending , and sheweth the divisions and depravations that have followed since the Council of Nice would make one emendation , and on their example other Councils had made and mended , done and undone so oft , that they had marr'd all by it : and he perswadeth the Emperor * * It is a great doubt whether this Book were written in Constantins his life time or since his death : of which see Hieronim . de Scrip. Ecclesiast. Erasm . Baronius tom . 3. Annal. pag. 714 , 715. Bellarmin de Scriptor . Eccles. pag. ( mihi ) 25. But it s plain by the Epistle it self , that it was written as to Constantius alive , though its possible , as Bellarmine conjectureth , that he might be dead , and Hilary in France not know it ; For its clear that was written a little before or after his d●ath , even the same yeare that he dyed . to hearken to the ancient Gospel faith and not to Synods . His words are in Epist. vel Lib. ad Constant . August . pag. ( Edit. Paris . ) 307.308 . where having shewed how he had erred in looking after Councils , he saith [ Recognosce fidem quam , &c. that is , Reacknowledge that Belief which thou desirest to hear from the Bishops but hearest not . For they of whom it is required do write their own things , and do not preach the things of God ; they have drawn about an endless and perpetual circle . For the modesty of humane infirmity should have contained all mysteries of divine knowledge in those bounds of conscience onely , which he believed in , and not after a Belief confessed and sworn in Baptism , in the name of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , to doubt or innovate any thing else . — Under the improbable occasion of this necessity * * Of keeping the right sence . the custome is come up of writing and renewing the Belief . Which after that it began rather to frame new things , then to retain what was received , it neither defended the old , nor confirmed the new , and Belief is now become rather ( a belief ) of the times than of the Gospels : while it is written according to the years , and not held according to the Confession of Baptism . It is a most perillous and miserable thing , that we have as many Beliefs as Wills ; and as many Doctrines as manners ; and that as many causes of blasphemy spring up , as there are vices . And when according to one God and one Lord , and one Baptism , there is one Belief , we are faln from that Belief which is but one , and while many are made , they therefore begin to be , that there may be none . For we are on both sides conscious , that since the meeting of the Council of Nice , we have wrote nothing but Beliefes . While there is quarrel about the words and questions about the newness , and occasion about the ambiguityes , and complaints about the Authors , and strife about the parties , and difficulty in consents , and while every one begins to be an Anathema to another , almost no one now is Christs . For we are carryed about by an uncertain wind of Doctrine , and either while we teach we trouble , or while we are taught we erre . And what is the change that is in the last years belief ? The first decreeth that the word homousion shall be silenced : The next decreeth and preacheth the homousion : The third doth by indulgence excuse the word usia which was simply before used by our fathers . The fourth and last doth not excuse it , but condemn it . and at last it s come to this , that there is nothing remaineth established and inviolable with us , nor * * i. e. That was so with us , &c. with any before us . And as for the likeness 'of God the Son to God the Father , it is the Belief of our miserable time , that he is not like in whole , or but in part . We are excellent * * That is , the Councils of those times . judges ( or Arbitrators ) sure , the seekers of the heavenly misteries who do calumniate in our professions of the faith of God , we decree yearly and monethly Beliefs of God ; we repent of our decrees , we defend them , we Anathematize those that were defended , we damne other mens matter in ours , or they damne ours in theirs , and biting one another , we are consumed one of aouther . A Belief is again sought for , as if there were no beliefe . A belief must be written , as if it were not in our hearts . Being already regenerated by faith , we are now taught to believe : As though the Regeneration were without Belief . We lear● Christ after Baptism ; as if Baptism could be anything * * Or there could be any Baptisme . without the faith o● Christ — p. 309. Amon● these shipwracks of faith the heritage of our heavenly patrimony being no● almost profligate , it is the safest way for us to retain that first and onely Evangelical Belief confessed in Baptism and understood , and not to chang● that good Belief which onely I have received and heard . Not as if those things which are contained in the Council of our Fathers , * * The Council of Nice , are to be damned as irreligiously and impiously written ; but because through mens rashness they are used to contradiction , that for this the Gospel might safely be denyed under the name of novelty , as if it were innovated that it might be mended . That which is mended alwayes effecteth this , that while every amendment doth displease , every amendment may be condemned by a following amendment ; as if now , whatever it be , it were no amendment of an amendment , but began to be a condemnation of it . In this much , O Emperor Constantius , I admire thee as of a blessed and Religious will , desiring a Belief onely according to what is written ; ☞ and indeed justly hastening to those very words of the onely begotten God , that the brest capable of impartial solicitude , may also be full of the knowledge of the words of God . He that refuseth this is an Antichrist : and he that counterfeiteth it , is Anathema . But this one thing I intreat of thee , — that the Council being present which now quarrels about the Belief , thou wilt vouchsafe to hear me a few words , of the Holy Scriptures , and I may speak with thee of the words of my Lord Jesus Christ , whose banished man , or Priest I am . — O Emperor dost thou seek a Belief ! Hear it , not out of newpapers , but out of the Books of God . — Remember , that it is not a question of Philosophy , but in the doctrine of the Gospel . I desire not audience so much for my self as for thee , and the Churches of God . For I have my Belief with my self , and need none from without . That which I have received , I hold , and I change not that which is of God . But yet remember that there is no hereticke but doth falsly pretend that he speaks that in which he blasphemeth , according to the Scripture . — ( Here he names Marcellus , Photinus , Sabellius , Montaneus , Manichaeus , Marcion . ) They all speak Scripture without its meaning ; they pretend faith without faith . For the Scriptures lie not in reading , but in understanding , nor in prevarication , but in charity . Hear , I pray thee , what is written of Christ , lest under them those things that are not written be preached . Submit thy ears to those things which from ( these ) Books I shall speak ; lift up thy faith to God : Hear that which profiteth to Belief , to Unity , to Eternity . I will speak to thee with the honor of thy Kingdom and thy faith , all things profitable to the peace of East and West : under the publike knowledge , under a disagreeing Council , under a famous contention . — I will defend nothing to scandal , nor that is without ( or besides ) the Gospel . ] Here he reciteth a short creed in Scripture words , especially about Christ .

I confess I fear I am too tedious in these long citations ; but I do it , that the Papists may not say that we take particular words or shreds of sentences , without the full sence . Here I desire that it may be noted , 1. That Councils may erre and differ . 2. That they are so far from being the authorized judges of our belief , that in Hilaryes judgement , their determinations have occasioned the ruine and dangerous divisions of the Church . 3. And that this is not onely true of the Arrian Councils , but of the Council of Nice it self though its Belief were sound , even by the novelty of terms , and example for further innovating . 4. That Hilary never calls the Emperor to consult with the Pope or Church of Rome as the authorized infallible judge , even when he professeth to tell him all that was necessary to the peace of the whole Church East and West . If it be said , that this is because Hereticks believed not Romes authority or infallibility ; I answer , It had then most neerly concerned Hilary to teach it them , when he taught them all that was necessary to peace ; especially if that be the foundation into which the rest of our faith must be resolved . 5. Lastly note , that it is only the word of God , and the ancient Baptismal Creed which Hilary here calls them to for Peace and healing of all the worlds division .

☞ O sad case that this advice was never taken to this day ! O happy Church when ever it shall be taken , and never till then .

And here because I am afraid of wearying the Reader , and making these testimonies unproportionable to the brevity of the disputation , I shall forbear adding those that I thought to have added , yet assuring any Papist that readeth it , that it is not for want of more sufficient Testimonies of the Fathers on our side . For I had ready to transcribe in those few books which stand at my elbow , sufficient Testimonies ( shorter or longer ) in all these following Authors in their own writings , viz. Clemens Romanus , Ignatius , Justin Martyr , Irenaeus the supposed Dionisius Areop , Tertullian , Origen , Clemens Alexandr , Athenagoras , Fatianus , Arnobius , Athanasius , Lactantius , Macarius , Cyril . Alexand. Cyril . Hierosol . Synesius , Epiphanius , Eusebius Caesariensis , Chrysostome , Gregorius Thaumat . Neocaesar . Greg. Nyssen , Basilius Seleuciae , Ambrose , Theodoret , Damascene , Isidore Hispal . Gaudentius Brixianus , Vincentius Lirinensis , Salvianus Massil . Caesarius Arelatens . Alcuinus vel Albinus , Beda , Vigilius , Joannes Maxen●ius , Alcimus Avitus , Prosper , Fulgentius , Oecumenius , Theophylact. Bernard , with many others , besides all before named : of whom , some speak fully to the point , and all the rest call us to the word of God in Scriptures , for the resolution or ground of our faith , and not to the authority or infallibility of the Pope of Rome . I shall onely stay so long as to adde two or three of the eldest ( though briefest ) and two or three Canons of some Councils , because there will seem more weight in their testimonies . And for any Reader Papist or Protestant that would have more Testimonies to this end ( to see whether it be Romes authority or infallibility , or rather the Scriptures , that is the Testimony which must support our faith , and is first to be known ) I desire them to read them already collected in Chamier , in Doctor Sutlive , in Sibrandus Lubbertus de princip. Christ . Dogmat . in Chemuitius , and Bellarmine himself who reciteth them out of Chemnitius , and pretendeth ( and vainly pretendeth ) to answer them , to whom Lubbertus , and many more of ours have therein replyed : But specially read that excellent Treatise of Philip Mornay Lord du Plessis of the Church .

Clemens Rom. ad Corinth . Clemens Romanus in his Epistle to the Corinthians useth not once to them any argument from his authority and infallibility , which sure he would have done for the healing of so great a schisme , if it had been true . Nay when he doth earnestly press them to submit to and obey their own Presbyters , he never requireth any obedience to himself or to the Romane Church . Nay so far is he from taking any notice of any universal Monarchy or infallibility in himself that he doth not so much as take notice of any Bishop distinct from a Presbyter in their own Church , nor once call them to be determined by any single or supereminent Bishop at all ; but onely to obey their Bishops or Presbyters .

Ignatius ad Rom. Ignatius writing to the Romanes calleth them onely the Church [ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ] [ Quae & praesidet in loco regionis Romanorum ] or as Bishop Vshers ancient Version hath it [ Quae & praesidet in loco chori Romanorum ] which is not a presidency over the whole Church . And towards the end , he saith [ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ] i.e. [ Memores estote in precibus vestris Ecclesiae quae est in Syria , quae prome , jam Christo Pastore utitur . ] as Hier. Vairlenius Sylvius interpreteth it in his Edit. pag. 69. I know that the old vulgar Latin Edition , which is in Joachimus Perionius his Edition , pag 494. and in Bishop Vshers pag. 89. translateth it Mementote in orationibus vesiris illius qui pro me recturus est ecelesiam quae est in Syria ] as if it were his successor that he would have them pray for : But as Vairlenius , so Vedelius also better translateth it [ Ecclesiae quae est in Syria , quae pro me jam Domino pastore utitur . ] ( Edit. Vedel . pag. 250. ) And Bishop Vshers old Latine Translation , is [ Ecclesiae quae pro me pastore Dei utitur . ] And the next words are [ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ] i. e. [ & solus ●am visitahit & sit vestra in eo dilectio ] as the vulgar Latin Version , or Solus ipsam curabit visitabitque ] As Vairlenius and Vedelius : or rather as Bishop Vshers old Latin version [ Solus ipse ( Jesus Christus ) vice Episcopi sit ] From whence I gather that the Bishop of Rome was not the Bishop universal of that Syrian Church , or else Ignatius 1. Would have sure commended it to his care . 2. Or at least not have expresly said that Christ onely was their Bishop when he was gone .

Moreover , is it a probable thing that Ignatius would have so frequently and importunately have pressed the Church , that he wrote to in all his Epistles , to be subject to and obey their Bishops , Presbyters and Deacons , and yet would never have given them one word of advice to be subject to , and obey the Bishop of Rome , if the peace and unity of the whole Church , and the very faith and salvation of the particular members , had so much depended on this as the Papists would perswade us ? Certainly a Negative Argument from the silence of the writers of those times , is a sufficient confutation of the Romish usurpation .

Policarpus Epist. ad Phil. Policarp in his Epistle to the Philippians , perswadeth that Church [ to be subject to the Presbyters and Deacons as to God and Christ ] not mentioning any other superior Bishop , much less an universal Bishop to whom also they must be subject . And whereas Valens one of their Presbyters was faln ( with his wife ) into some sin which Policarpe professeth his sorrow for , he doth not direct them to seek remedy at any higher power , but perswadeth them to reduce him themselves as a straying member . And having before mentioned divers heresies of those times , be addeth as the Remedy , not an advice of appeal to Rome , or to seeke for their determination , or to hold to their infallibility , but [ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ] i. e. [ Wherefore leaving the vanity of many , and false doctrines , let us return to that Word which from the beginning was delivered to us . ] It is to the first word , and not to Rome that this blessed Disciple of John doth send the Philippians for stability against errors .

Irenaeus Euseb. Hist. Eccles. li. 5. c. 26. Irenaeus is said by Eusebius ( Eccles. Hist. li. 5. cap. 26. ) to have sharply reproved Victor for breaking the Churches peace , by excommunicating the Asian Churches about Easter day , The Asian Churches . and tells him that [ The like was never heard of ] and that [ his predecessors did otherwise ] therefore he took not Victor to be infallible .

And it is apparent that all the Asian Churches ●ho stood against Victor and were excommunicated by ●im , did little dream that he was the universal Bishop or infallible . Nay their Bishops [ sharply reprehend him and their words are yet extant ] saith Eusebius .

Moreover in the same Chapter of Eusebius it is expressed by Irenaeus to Vict●● , Policarp . ibid. that Policarp the Disciple of John differed from Anicetus , and neither of them could be perswaded to alter his opinion . Therefore Policarp never dream't , either that the Romane Bishop was infallible , or was his Governor , whom he should obey .

And its worth the reading in the 24. and 25. Chapters of Eusebius , how confidently Policrates opposeth Victor , alledging a General custome from the Apostles , and resolveth never to change his custome : And the Bishops and Churches here in England , did follow the same custome , and differ from Rome .

And in the 28 Chapter Eusebius mentioneth an ancient writer , that opposed the heresie of Artemon , and whereas they alledged that all the Bishops of Rome till Zephyrinus were of their mind , and preached it , even Victor himself ( that is , against the Godhead of Christ ) he answereth them thus [ This peradventure might seem to have some likelihood of truth , if it were not oppugned , first of all by the holy Scriptures , next by the books of sundry men long before the time of Victor ] As Justin , Miltiades , Tatianus , Clemens , and Irenaeus . So that this old writer supposed it no impossible thing for a Bishop of Rome to have taught heresie .

And in the very conclusion of the Chapter and Book Eusebius recites many more of the words of that old writer among the which there are these against the hereticks of those times for presuming to correct and so deprave the Scriptures , which methinks , should touch the Romanists to the quicke : [ Belike they are altogether ignorant what presumption is practised in this wicked deed of theirs . For either they perswade themselves that the holy Scriptures were not indicted by the instinct of the Holy Ghost , and so are they Infidels , or else they think themselves wiser then the Holy Ghost ; and what other thing do they in that than shew themselves possessed of the Devil ? ]

So that if we must go to the Arbitration of the Pope to know whether the Scriptures were indited by the Holy Ghost . We must go to him to know whether we must be Infidels or not ? For they that deny this are Infidels . But I hope all the world will not remain Infidels , till they know the Arbitrement of the Pope , or till his Authority move them to be Christians . For its an impossibility and contradiction , that any man should believe in Christs pretended Vicar , as his Vicar , and believe an authority and infallibility which he or his Church of Rome hath received from Christ , before they believe in Christ himself .

How Tertullian lib. de Pudicitia c. 21. takes up the Pope , if he pretend to his pardoning power from Do tibi claves , or supra hanc Petram , I shall for brevity refer you to the place in him .

And Origen upon Math. on the words , is large and full against them , I refer you to the words themselves in him .

I conclude this ranke of testimonies in the words of Tertullian [ Credunt sine Scripturis ut credant contra Scripturas ] They believe without the Scripture , Tertull. de praescript . that they may believe against the Scriptures . Had Scripture been for the Pope and Papists , then the Pope and they would have been for Scriptures ; and then we might have spared all this ado . But because it is against them , no wonder if they be against it .

I shall next give a touch more of some passages of Councils concerning this controversie . And first it is known that the first Councils did commonly decree that appeals should be from a Bishop to a Synod , or the Metropolitane , and that if the Synod of Comprovincials disagreed , that the Metropolitane should call some of the next Province to assist them , and that was the highest , unless there were a more general Council , as Concil. Antiochen . Can. 14. and divers more , beyond doubt , declare : So that here was no appeal to the Pope . Yea in the 6. Canon of that Council of Antioch , it is decreed that till an offending Priest , Deacon , or Layman , be reconciled to his own Bishop , or else have given satisfaction to a Synod , that no other Bishop shall receive him : so that Rome it self may not receive him : much less absolve him .

Also in the 22. Canon of the same Council ( and in many other Councils ) it is decreed that no Bishop shall come into the City of another Bishop , not subject to him about ordination , and if they there ordain any , it shall be void , and they shall be questioned by a Synod . And Chrysostome hereupon complaineth of Theophilus Patriarch of Alexandria , for exercising authority at Constantinople , out of his o●n juris●iction , contrary to the Canons ; as may ●e s●en in his first Epipse to Pope Innocent . I know they pretend that by that Epistle he yet acknowledged Innocents superiority and jurisdiction : As if a man might not make his moan , or seek all possible relie● from any that are capable of helping them , without respect to superiority or jurisdiction ; It was R●mes greatness and interest in the Emperor and others , and not a universal jurisdiction , that made Innocent seem capable of affording some help to * * Which yet he was not able to do . Chrysostome . But thus Baronius the Popes Annalist , where ever he findeth but a letter writen to the Bishop of Rome , or his advice or help in any thing desired , doth presently conclude that they acknowledged in the Pope universale regimen , an universal Government . And by the like reason many another should be universal Governor as well as he .

Moreover , in the third Council of Carthage Can. 26. it is decreed [ Vt primae sedis Episcopus non app●●●tur princeps sacerdotum , aut summus sacerdos , aut ●liquid hu●● modi , sed tantum primae sedis Episcopus ] that i● [ That the Bishop of the first seat shall not be called the chief of the Priests , or the chief Priest , or any such thing , but only the Bishop of the first ●●at . ]

One would think that this were as express against Romes usurpation , as can be spoken . But they that must be the interprets of Scripture because it speaks ●●t plain enough , must be judge of Councils too , which it seems can speak no plainer then Scripture , 〈…〉 taught them to speak anew .

Or if plainer may be ( of the power as well as the name ) let us hear the Council of Milevis ( of which saith Prosper , Aurelius was the Captain , and Augustine the ingenium : And Baronius saith that Augustine was magna pars a great part of the Council , and by reason of his great abilities and interest ) Whether there were two Milevitane Councils , as Baronius not improbably thinks , or but one , it much matters not : The Canons are now usually commixt as if they were one , and undoubtedly the true Canons , and so that which is now the 22. Canon runs thus [ Item placuit ut Presbyteri , Diaconi , vel caeteriis inferiores clerici in causis quas habuerint , si de judiciis Episcoporum suorum quaesti fuerint , vicini Episcopi eos audiant , & inter eos quicquid est finiant adhibiti ab eis ex consensu Episcoporum suorum . Quod si & ab eis provocandum putaverint , non provocent nisi ad Africana concilia , vel ad Primates provinciarum suarum . Ad transmarina autem qui putaverit appellandum , a nullo intra African in communionem suscipiatur . ] That is [ It seemeth good that Presbyters , Deacons , and the other inferior Clergy , if in their causes they complain of the judgements of their Bishops , neighbor Bishops shall hear them , and being used by them with their Bishops consent , shall end whatever is between them . But if they think good to appeal from them , they may not appeal but to the Africane Councils , or to the Primates of their Provinces . But if any think to appeal to those beyond Sea , * * That is , to Rome or any other . let none in Africk receive him into communion . ] Then it was a matter of excommunication to appeal to Rome , and consequently to acknowledge their universal Government : and now it is become essential to a Church , and to a Christian to believe it .

Concil Nis. Can. 6. The General Council of Nice before this ( according to such Canons as are now extant ) C. 6. doth give the Patriarchs of Alexandria power over Egypt , Libia & Pentapolis , quoniam quidem & Episcopo Romano parilis mos est , Because the Bishop of Rome hath the like custome , so that the Bishop of Rome is equalized with them , and his power restrained to his own Patriarchate , or the Ecclesiae suburbicariae ( of the extent whereof read Salmasius his learned Treatise against Sirmondus de Ecclesiis subuarbicariis ) which was so plain to Cusanus a Cardinal of Rome , that it made him say , hereupon [ Videmus quantum Romanus Pontifex ultra sacras observationes , ex usu & consuetudine subjectionalis obedientiae hodie ●cquisivit ] That is [ We see how much the Pope of Rome hath at this day gotten beyond the sacred observations by use and custome of subjectional obedience . C●sanus li. 2. de concord . cap. 12. ] And Barth . Caranza having mentioned this Canon in his summ . Council . p. 48. had no other evasion but this , that among all the Greek and Latin Copies which he searched , Cardinal Marcellus a Legate at the Trent Council , shewed him one Latine Copy that had [ Metropolitane ] instead of [ Romane ? ] But is this much to the purpose ? Or if it were , is one Latin Copy in a Cardinals hand more credible then all the rest in the world , that have c●●e to light ?

In the 6. Council of Carthage , Au●elius heard it and Augustine was there , and there they again determined that the Bishop of Rome should not receive the Priests or excommunicate persons that appeased to him . And they give this as the Reason [ Quia hoc nulla patrum , &c. ] That is [ Because this was never derogated from the Asricke Church by any definition of our Fathers , and the Nicene Decree do commit both the inferior Clergy , and and the Bishops themselves to their Metropolitans . For they most prudently and justly provided that all businesses should be finished in the places where they were begun : and the grace of the holy Ghost will not be wanting to each province : Let this equity be constantly and prudently observed by Christs Priests : especially seeing every man hath leave , if he be offended with the judgement of the known , to appeal to a Council to his Province , or to a General Council . Unless there be any man that can think that God can inspire a Justice of Tryal into any one person , and deny it to innumerable that are congregated in Council . ]

And whereas the Bishop of Rome would have sent his Legates into those parts , to take cognisance of their affairs , they answered [ Vt aliqui tanquam atuae sanctitatis latere ad nos mittantur , nulla invenimus Patrum Synodo constitutum ] That is [ That any should be sent against as Legates from your sanctity , to us , is a thing which we find not constituted by any Synod of the Fathers ] But here Gratian hath falsified the Canon , by the addition of a [ Save to the See of Rome ] where the Milevit●n Canon is repeated : In which manner they have used too much of the Churches records .

Can we think that Augustine and the rest of the Bishops in these Councils did not understand what they did , and purposly restrain the Romane ambition ?

The case also which is related in Augustine between the Catholikes and the Donatists shews how far they were in those dayes from dreaming of the Romane decisive judgement . The great controversie was , who had the true Church the Donatists , or the Catholikes ? And the Donatists great Arguments were , that Caecilian had been ordained by Traditors , and therefore his party and those that communicated with them were not the Church nor to be communicated with . Mark now how the Catholikes plead this cause . 1. They procure it heard by the Emperors Cognitor , Marcellinus ; and not by the Pope . 2. They never once fetch their proof that the Catholike Church was theirs from their agreement with Rome , or subjection to the Pope , nor once in all their mention of the Catholike Church do give the Popish description of it , or fetch it from the Romane Bishop as the head ; but over & over again they prove that their Church is the Catholike Church because it is [ That which beginning at Jerusalem , is tranfused over all the world . ] and frequently they give this same description of it , and hence prove it out of Scripture , as is apparent in Austins writings at large . They never say , the Catholike Church is the Romane or that which submitteth to the Pope . 3. Note ( which is the chief thing that here I do intend ) that it was publikely proved in the conference that first Melchiades Bishop of Rome , with other Bishops were appointed to hear the business between Donatus a nigris Casis , and Caecilianus , and that they absolved Caecilianus , and condemned Donatus And then that the Donatists rested not here but appealed to the Emperor , and the Emperor caused a certain number of Bishops to meet at Arles to hear over all the cause again , and these Bishops not agreeing ( though they were most of them against Donatus ) the Emperor Constantine was fain to determine the matter himself , who absolved Faelix and Caecilianus , and condemned the Donatists , yet giving them liberum arbitrium , as it was called then , or Liberty of conscience , as it is called now . So that the Bishop of Rome acteth but as appointed with others ; and his judgement is not that highest from which there is no appeal ; for the Bishops at Arles must judge of all again , and the Emperor after them . Of all this see Augustine in Brevicul . Collation cum Donat. throughout , specially pag 288. ( Edit. Paris . ) & lib. ad Donatist . post . Collation . cap. 33. pag. 245.

I shall onely adde to these Testimonies foregoing , the witness of some of their own party . I have before shewed that one part of their Church denyeth the Popes infallibility , and the other a Councils : and that they are not agreed about the ultimate resolution of their faith . Their Cardinal Nic. Cusanus li. de Concord . Cathol. c. 13. & 34. maintaineth that [ All Bishops are equal as to the jurisdiction , though not as to the execution , because the executive exercise is restrained by certain positive bounds , and that for the better , to bring men to God , which when it ceaseth , the positive rights cease ] And he saith that in time of necessity a simple Priest may absolve even one that is excommunicated by the Pope ; And concludeth that the Papacy is but of Positive right ; and that both it , and all Majority among Bishops is constituted by subjectional consent ▪ that the power of binding and losing is immediately from Christ , and therefore that Priests are equal , and that the distinction of Diocess , and that a Bishop should be over the Presbyters , are of positive right : And that Christ gave no more to Peter then to the rest of the Apostles , nor said more to him then to them , Yea and he addeth , that if the Bishop of Trevers were by the congregate Church chosen to be their President and head , he should properly be more the successor of Peter then the Bishop of Rome . ] This is plain dealing for a Cardinal .

* *

Occham & Almaine in 3. sent D. 24. Conc. 6. dub . 6. There are many heretical Docretals Alph. a ● astro adv. har. l. 1. c. 4. Waldens. Doct. fid. l 2. ar 2. c. 19. § 1. § 38. N. 4. Leg. Card. de Alliaco de reform . Eccles. Picus in quest. ves . per.

Adco ut jam borrendam quorundam proverbium est al cum statum devenisse Ecclesiam , ut non fit digna regi nisi per reprobos inquit Card. de Alliaco .

That the like passages are frequent in Gerson is so well known that I need not mention them . And in Cardinal de Aliaco , and many other Cardinals , Bishops , and Schoolmen of their own , the like passages are well known , and so oft cited already , that I shall forbear to recite them .

I have oft times observed how they have alledged Durandus , as pleading that the last resolution of our faith is into this primo creditum , that the Church is guided by the holy Ghost , and that therefore we believe the Scripture to be Gods word e. g. the Gospel of Matthew rather then that of Nicodemus , because the Church approveth it , who is guided by the spirit . But I find that even there Durandus destroyeth the Romane cause . For he immediately addeth , that [ Hoc quod dictum est de approbatione Scripturae per Ecclesiam intelligitur solum de Ecclesia quae fuit tempore Apostolorum , qui fuerunt repleti spiritu sancto , & nihilominus viderunt Miracula Christi & audierunt ejus doctrinam , & ob hoc fuerunt convenientes testes omnium quae Christus fecit aut do●uit ut per eorum testimonium scriptura continens facta & dicta Christi approbaretur ] That is , Durandus in sem. li. 3. Dist. 24. q. 1. pag. mihi 576. [ This which is said of the approbation of the Scripture by the Church is onely meant of the Church which was in the times of the Apostles , who were filled with the Holy Ghost , and also saw the Miracles of Christ , and heard his doctrine , and therefore were fit witnesses of all that Christ did or taught that by their testimony the Scripture containing the deeds and words of Christ , Vid. Zabarell . Cardin. Florent . in li. Schism . & Conc. That future Councils may abrogate that which was unjustly done in former , and that they may erre . might be approved ]

This he proveth from Scripture , and concludeth , that the Gospels which that Church approved cannot now be rejected , because there is not the like cause , and that [ Immo tenens contrarium haereticus est , cujuscunque status aut conditionis existat ] [ Yea he that holdeth the contrary is a heretick , of what state or condition soever he be ] Not excepting the Pope himself . Is this liker the doctrine of Papists or of Protestants ?

Yea one word to Master Knot and those of his that will resolve their faith into the Miracles of the present Rome Church . If those Miracles which they glory in be indeed regardable , then the Church of Rome is not infallible ; for the author of those Miracles do witness them to be fallible . The old Saint Austin and the rest of his time and before , whose testimonies about Miracles they bring in , as I have sufficiently proved are against their usurped jurisdiction and infallibility . Their Saint Maud saith , that the Romane Church shall ere long Apostatize from the faith totally and openly , which did obscurely Apostatize of a long time before . Their Saint Elizabeth saith , That Christ the head of the Church cryeth out but his members are dead : Abbas Joachim in Jerem. that the Apostolike seat is possessed with pride , and the flocks go astray . The supposed Prophet Abbat Joachim saith There is yet another figtree withered by the curse of prevarication ; the Latin Church , or the Ship of Peter , whose temporal leaves are made covers to excuse sin , with which both Adam the Pope , and Eve the subjects of the Church do cover the dishonesty of their lives , See many of the Papists cited against themselves by Doctor Sutlive de Eccles. c. 11. pag. 55.56 , 57. and miserably hide themselves in the wood of Ecclesiastical Glory . ]

But I will trouble my self and the Reader with no more of this work , fearing that I have trespassed in doing more than needs in so plain a case , already . I will therefore shut up all that I have to say from humane Testimony , with the words of Chrysostom ( or whoever else is the author of the imperfect work on Math. ) and his own certain expressions elsewhere .

In the Imperfect Comment. ( Edit. Commel . an. 1617. ) in Math. 20. Hom. 35. Opus Imperf. in Math. Hom. 35. pag. 900.901 . pag. 900.901 . it is said as followeth [ Fructum humilitatis terrestris posuit primatum caelestem , & primatus terrestris fructum , posuit confusionem caelestem . Quicunque ergo defiderat primatum caelestem , sequatur humilitatem terrestrem ; quicunque autem desiderat , primatum in terra , inveniet confusionem in caelo : ut jam inter servos Christi ●on sit de primatu certamen ] That is [ He hath made the Celestial primacy to be the fruit of terrestrial humility : and the fruit of earthly Primacy , he hath appointed to be Celestial confusion * * That is , confusion from heaven . . Whosoever therefore desireth Celestial primacy let him follow terrestrial humility : but whosoever desireth Primacy on earth , shall find confusion in heaven : That so a mong the servants of Christ there may be no strife for Primacy . ]

And afterward he addeth [ Primatum autem Ecclesiasticum concupiscere , neque ratio est neque causa : quia neque justum est , neque utile : Quis enim sapiens ultro se subjicere festinar servituti , labori , dolori , & quod majus est , periculo tali , ut det rationem pro omni Ecclesia apud justum judicem , nisi forte qui nec credit judicium Dei , nec times , uti abutens primatu suo Ecclesiastico seculariter , convertat eum in secularem . ] That is [ But to desire an Ecclesiastical Primacy , there is neither reason nor cause , because it is neither just nor profitable : For what wise man will voluntarily hasten to subject himself to servitude , labor , grief , and which is more to such a danger , as to be accountable to the righteous judge for all the Church ? unless it be one that perhaps doth neither believe the judgement of God , nor feareth it , that abusing secularly his Ecclesiastical primacy , he may turn it into a secular . ] One would think this should be plain enough against the Papal usurpation ! If they tell me that this is none of Chrysostomes works , but some hereticks ; I answer , When they have use for it , they can magnifie it . Let their Sixtus Senensis words be weighed which are printed before this book , especially what he saith of some ancient Copies , which have the errors onely in the Margin , written by some Arrian hand , and withall that it is very observable , that the errors are so intermixed , that yet you may take them out , and not maim any of the sence , but leave the rest entire , yea they seem as parenthentical or superfluous , and then conjecture whether yet it may not be Crysostomes : But whose so ever it is , it is ancient , and commonly much commended . But let that go which way it will , as long as in the undoubted works of Crysostome there is over and over again the like . In his Homil. 66. alias 67. in Mat. 20. pag. 577. Chrysost. on Math. 20. Hom 67. Grec . 66. juxta Edit. Comm. pag. 577. he saith [ They that seek Primacy , are a disgrace to themselves not knowing that by this means they shall thrust themselves into the lowest ] state . The like he hath in Homil. on Math. 18.

I shall now leave it to the consideration of the impartial , by this smal taste of the judgement of former tmes , whether the Romane infallibility and universal government were a thing known to the Church of Christ of old , or yielded as soon as ambitiously sought ? And whether this be a sit ground for us to build our faith upon , or resolve it into ? And if any would see more of the resistancy of their usurpations , even when it was at the highest , he may read in Mich. Goldastus a multitude of Volumes , that will give him further information : or in Bishop Vsher de Success . & stat. Eccles. he may find enough in narrower room .

The last part of this disputation should consist of an answer to the Popish Arguments for their cause : but I can find so little in any of their writings that s worthy to be taken notice of , more then what is answered before , that I shall not need to stand long upon this .

They tell us that , if our Church be not infallible ▪ then people have small reason to hear us or regard us ? or to trust their salvation on the doctrine which we deliver to them , ; seeing for ought we know , or they know , we may but deceive them , as being first our selves deceived ; so that this makes way to infidelity or uncertainty of the faith , if the Church be not infallible .

This is their all , the first and last , for ought I can find ( that 's worth the repeating ) and of how little value this arguing is , me thinks should be very easie to apprehend .

1. Look back to the stating of the Question , and remember how far we say the Church is fallible , and how far infallible , and it may suffice to confute all this .

2. It s not all one to be absolutely infallible , and to be actually Not-mistaken . Nor to be certain of some things , and to be certain of all things that ought to be known or believed : Nor to be certain by such external evidence of verity and internal grace , as is ordinary to the faithful , and to be certain by a pretended priviledge above all the rest of the world ; even knowing the conclusion as such without knowing the medium . We are certain that Scripture is Gods word : and certain that we are certain ; and therefore pro tempore infallibly certain : And if we should say that we are certain that no true Believer shall ever fall from this certainty , we should speak more agreeably to the Protestant doctrine then to yours , who say that they may fall away . And we maintain that there is still an Objective certainly or Infallibility ( if I may use the word actively ) in the word of God and every sentence of it , which can never fail , if our faith should fail . And we can manifest to our hearers such grounds of their belief , as are infallible , and will never deceive those that trust in them

Your argument therefore most vainly supposeth , that mens saith must be grounded on the word and credit of their Teachers , and that therefore they can have no stronger a faith , then is answerable to our credit with them . But it s no such matter : It is Gods Veracity and not ours that is the formal object of the hearers faith : We do not desire ( as it seems the Papists do ) that they should take their faith on trust from us , and believe all on our words . We do but reveal to them that word of God , which is the ground of faith ; and we prove it to be the word of God , and shew them that in it which will prove it self to be so : so that as long as our Reasons , Proofs , Evidences are infallible , what necessity is there that the speaker must be infallible , and that in every thing that ought to be believed ? Are all the Preachers of the Romish faction infallible ? You will say , no , your selves . Must they not therefore be heard ? Or may not the doctrine which they preach beget a certain belief in the hearer ? You will , I know , with one voice , say , that I may and doth . How then do fallible men among you , by preaching bring men to an infallible faith ( in tant●m ) and why may it not be so with us ? Will you say that you preach in the name of the Pope who is infallible ? Why but , how do your hearers know that ; Must they take it on the preachers word , who proclaimeth himself fallible ? Why then , may they not as well take it on our words that Christ and Scripture is infallible ! When we say , we preach in Christs name , as confidently as you say that you preach in the Popes name ? and so your doctrine and ours should be both uncertain , if both rested on the fallible preachers word . But if you will not bid your hearers take your word , but will undertake to demonstrate to thtm by cogent evidence , that you are sent by the Pope , and that he is infallible , and that you speak nothing but what he infallibly warranteth you to speak ( all which will be incumbent on you to prove ) then will we much more easily and truly prove , that God is true and that Scripture is his word ( which is all that is incumbent on us to prove ; seeing an infallible word , of an infallible God , must be heard , how fallible soever we may be ) so that you might easily see , if you would that your task is incomparably harder then ours ( even as much as to prove a falshood is harder then to prove a truth . )

How will you approve of such reasoning as your own in other cases ! What if ten men that have been at a fight , come home and tell you , which side had the better ? though they are all fallible , may they not possibly give you such infallible proof of what they say , as may make it certain ? What if all the Lawyers in the Land are fallible men , yea and all other men in the Land ; and do not know all things , nor all that should be known about the Lawes ? Doth it follow that these fallible men , may not infallibly know themselves and infallibly prove to others , even by certain humane testimony , uncapable of deceit , that this or that is indeed a statute Law of the Land made by King and Parliament ? Do all men hold their lands and lives by Law , and so many dye at the Gallows by Law , and yet is it uncertain whether they be the Laws indeed or not , and all because the men that say so , are not infallible ( and all are dead that saw them made ! ) Why but a man may be certain of many a thing that yet is not infallible in all things , nor in all that he ought to know . Your argument therefore is strong against your selves , who resolve mens saith into humane credit , but it s nothing against us , who resolve it into Gods veracity , and teach not men to take all upon trust from our bare words . It is sufficient that God is infallible when we perswade them to believe , and that we can infallibly prove to them that the Scripture is Gods word , and what it containeth in the points of necessity to salvation . We can without infallibility in all other matters , infallibly prove to them what God requireth them to Believe and Do as Necessary to Salvation . It is the infallibility of our proofs ▪ and not of our bare words , that is necessary to mens belief . But the Papists expect their misled flock should take their bare word , and so make the faith of their followers , a humane faith ; and to blind the business they pretend to a certain infallibility as if their sayings were Divine .

Men will make use of Phisicians for their bodies though they be not infallible : Much more might they do it with encouragement , if they could infallibly tell them the true cure of every mortal disease , though there were an hundred smaller diseases that they could not cure , or a hundred questions in Anatomy and about the nature of diseases which they could not resolve . Why then should men conceit that the Ministry is vain that is not infallible , and knoweth not all things . Hath Gods Church been without infallible ordinary guides from the creation to this day , and we must now begin to feign a Necessity of their infallibility ? Let it be sufficient that God , and the extraordinarily inspired Prophets and Apostles are infallible , and that we have Teachers that can infallibly prove to us what he requireth of us in his words in points of Necessity to our everlasting happiness .

And for themselves , pretending to infallibility makes them not , nor procureth them infallible , whereas their voluminous errors , and the wicked practices grounded thereupon , and their frequent self-contradictions and mutations , do proclaim aloud to the world that they are both deceivable , deceived and deceivers : while the holy Scriptures whose sufficiency they deny is by themselves confessed to be of infallible verity .

We are resolved therefore by the grace of God , in a business of such moment as the everlasting saving or losing of our souls to venture and bottom all our Hopes on that word of God whose infallibility they confess , then on the word● of men who pretend to infallibility , and notoriously declare the vainty of those pretences .

Some more of the Sence of Antiquity in the main Controversie between us and the Papists , to declare further who it is that is of the New Religion .

CYrill . Hierosol . Cateches 4. Sect. de spiritu sancto , pag. ( Edit. Paris . 1631. ) 30.

〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. i. e. For concerning Divine things , and the holy mysteries of faith , nothing , no not the smallest thing ought to be delivered without the Divine Scriptures ; nor to be brought forth by simple probability , ☜ If the Tongue of man can speak plain this is plain . nor by a train of words . Nay do not simply believe me my self when I speak of these things to thee , unless thou receive a demonstration of the things which I speak from the Divine Scriptures For the very safety of our faith , resteth not on the elegancy of speech , but on the proof of Divine Scriptures . ]

And pag. 36. Sect de Sacra Script . he telleth you what Scriptures he meaneth earnestly disswading from the Apocryphal books , and numbering the same onely which we own as Canonical , save that he saith [ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ] and omitteth the Epist. to Hebrews and the Apocalypse .

And Cateches. 17. pag. 192. he saith [ And we now also ingeniously confess that we will not use humane reasonings ; but will only commemorate those things which are in the holy Scriptures : for this is most safe as Saint Paul , 1. Cor. 2.4 .

And Cateches. 18. pag. 220 , 221 , 222. See how he describeth the Catholike Church without the least intimation of the Romane description .

August . Cont. literas Petiliani li. 3. cap. 6. pag. Edit. Paris . 127. ) col. 1.

[ Proinde sive de Christo , sive de ejus Ecclesia , sive de quacunque alia re quae pertinet ad fidem utramque nostram ; Note here , 1. That it is , Ecclesia vel quacunque re alia , that Austin speaks , 2. That its cum omnibus , and therefore not an Argument onely for such as deny the Church and right grounds . 3. So do we procure the flames of Popish hatred . non dicam nos , nequaquam comparandi ei qui dixit , Licet si nos , sed omnino quod secutus adjecit , Si Angelus de caelo vobis annunciaverit preterquam quod in Scripturis legalibus & Evangelicis accepistis , anathema sit . ☞ 4. So may w● say [ As if we had bid the Apostles put nothing in the Bible to prove the Romane Catholike Church . Hac vobiscum & cum omnibus quos Christo lucrati cupimus actitantes , atque inter caetera sanctam Ecclesiam quam in Dei lieris promissam legimus & sicut promissa est in omnibus g●ntibus reddi cernimus , praedicantes , ab iis quos ad ejus pacificum gremium attrahi cupimus , pro actione gratiarum flammas meruinnus odiorum . ] That is [ Moreover , whether it be of Christ , or of his Church , or of any other thing which pertaineth to our faith and life , I say not [ if we ] who are not to be compared to him who said [ Though we ] but that which he next added [ If an Angel from heaven shall preach to you any other thing then that which you have received in the Scriptures of the Law and the Gospel , let him be accursed . While we deal thus with you and with all men whom we desire to win to Christ , and among other things , do preach the holy Church , which we find promised in Gods Scriptures , and which we see to be placed in all Nations as was promised , we have deserved ( or procured ) the flames of hatred from those whom we desire to draw into its pacifike bosome in stead of thanks . ] And he proceedeth [ as if it were we that so long before had bid the Prophets and Apostles that they should not put in their books any Testimonies , by which the faction ( or party ) of Donatus is proved to be the Church of Christ . ]

The Epistle ad Demetriadem commonly reckoned the 142. among Augustines cap. 9. saith [ Scito itaque in Scripturis divinis ( per quas solas potes plenam Dei intelligere voluntatem ) &c. ] By the Divine Scriptures alone thou maist understand the full will of God . ] I know the Lovaine Doctors put this Epistle in the Appendix and conjecture it to be of Pelagius : but 1. it shews the doctrine of that age : 2. Never did Austin contradict it , but oft say the like .

August . de peccat . Merit . & Remiss . li. 2. cap. 36. pag. ( mihi ) 304. saith [ Talis populus ut praedixi , eruditus in Regno caelorum per duo testamenta vetus & novum , non declinans in dextram superba presumtione justitiae , neque in sinistram secuva delectatione peccati , in terram illius promissionis intrabit : ] & postea [ Vbi enim de re obscurissima disputatur , non adjuvantibus Divinarum Scripturarum certis clarisque documentis , cohibere se deb●t humana presumptio nihil faciens in partem alteram declinando ] So that in Austius judgement the old and new Testament teach us enough to salvation ; and in the difficult points we must not so much as incline to either side , without the Scriptures , it being presumption to speak when they are silent .

And in his 49. Tract . on John he saith [ Evangelista testatur multa Dominum Christum & dixisse & fecisse quae non scripta sunt , electa sunt autem quae scriberentur , quae saluti credentium sufficere videbantur . ] i. e. [ The Evangelist testifieth that the Lord Christ spoke and did many things that are not written : but those were chosen to be written , which seemed sufficient for the salvation of Believers . ]

And li. de Nat. Grat c. 26. he saith to the Pelagians [ Solis Canonicis debeo sine ●ulla recusatione consensum ] That is [ I owe a consent without any refusal to the Canonical Scriptures alone ] An hundred more such sayings might be cited out of Augustine .

Hierom on the first Ch. of Hag. ( fol mihi . 102. ) speaking of the use of Hereticks , saith [ Sed & alia quae absque authoritate & testimoniis Scripturarum quasi traditione Apostolica sponte reperiunt atque confingunt percutit gladius Dei . Andradius Defen . l. 2. Vainly replyeth that this is spoken onely to those Hereticks that plead only Tradition and reject Scriptures . 1. That s plainly false : for Tatianus did not so 2. He speaks of all such traditions therefore of the Popish . ] i. e. [ But other things which without the Authority and Testimonies of Scripture they do of their own accord find out and feign as of Apostolical tradition the sword of God will cut down . ] And he instanceth in the fastings and other austerities of the Tatiani , which he saith they suffer causlesly .

The same Hierom against Helvidius saith [ Vt haec quae scripta sunt non negamus , ita ea quae non sunt scripta renuimus . Natum Deum esse de virgine credimus quia legimus : Mariam nupsisse post partum non credimus , quia non legimus ] So then the Church in Hieromes time would believe no more by Divine Faith , but what was written .

Chrysostome saith on the 95. Psal. . [ when any thing is spoken that is not written , the very thoughts of the hearers are lame ] And again on the 2 Thess. 3. [ All things are clear and sincere that are in the Divine Scriptures , every thing that is necessary is therein plain ] The words are spoken against those that would not go to the Congregation because there was no Sermon ; And though Chrysostome was almost daily in preaching , yet to shew them that the word read was worth their hearing , he addeth this answer : And he proceedeth to answer their other objections taken from the supposed obscurity of Scripture , telling them they are spoken in their own tongue and plainly . Orat. 3. pag. ( mihi ) 1503.

And on 2 Cor. Hom. 3. he calleth the Scripture the ballance , the square and rule of all things ; which words Bellarmine de verbo Dei l. 4. c. 11. endeavoreth to pervert in vain .

Theodoret Dialog. 1. inter Orthodox . & Eranist . in the beginning ( pag. 1. ) saith [ I would not have thee by humane reasons to enquire after the truth , but seek the steps of the Apostles and Prophets and their followers ] And in the second Dialogue [ I am not so rash as to assert any thing wherein the holy Scripture is silent . ]

Cyril of Alexandria in his seventh book against Julian ( pag. mihi 159. ) saith [ The Divine Scripture is sufficient to make them that are exercised in it , wise and most honest , and to have sufficient understanding . ] The like he hath twice or thrice over in that same Section , which I will not stand to repeat lest I be tedious .

Ambrose having mentioned the diversity of Heresies agreeing in una perfidia , giveth us this direction for cure : Itaque tanquam boni gubernatores quo tutius praetermeare possimus fidei vela tendamus Scriptuarumque relegamus ordinem . Amb. de fide li. 1. cap. 4. pag. 56. And many more express passages he hath : as [ Quae in Scripturis sanctis non reperimus , ea quemadmodum usurpare possemus ? ] This citation I take on trust from others that have before produced it , having before mentioned more .

Athanasius in his Orat. against the Gentiles in the beginning saith [ The holy and Divinely inspired Scriptures are sufficient for all instruction of verity ] And afterward he addeth that the writings of the Fathers and our Teachers do help us to interpret and understand Scripture .

Hippolytus ( in Bibliothec. Patrum Tom. 3. Edit. col . p. 20.21 . ) saith [ Vnus Deus est , quem non aliunde agnoscimus , quam ex sacris scripturis . Quemadmodum enim siquis vellet sapientiam hujus seculi exercere , non aliter hoc consequi poterit , nisi dogmata Philosophorum leg at : sic quicunque volumus pietatem in Deum exercere non aliunde discimus quam in scripturis Divinis ] i e. [ There is one God , whom we no other way know , * * That is [ Savingly . ] but by the holy Scriptures : For as he that will exercise the wisdom of this world , cannot otherwise attain it , but by reading the opinions of the Philosophers i● so those of us that will exercise piety towards God , do no other way learn it but in the Divine Scriptures .

Clemens Alexandrinus Stromat . li. 6. saith [ Without the Scripture we say nothing . ]

In the Life of Antony the Author saith [ The Scriptures are sufficient for our instruction . ]

Theodoret li. 1. histor. c. 7 reporteth the words of Constantine the Great spoken to the Fathers in the Nicene Council , after Eustathius Oration to him , thus [ He shewed them how grievous a thing it was and how bitter , Constantinus Magnus . when the enemies were profligate , and there was none left that durst oppose them , that they should strive against one another , and should make mirth for their enemies , and become their laughing stock : specially seeing they dispute about Divine things , and have the doctrine of the Holy Ghost laid down in the Scripture monuments : For , saith he , the Books of the Evangelists and Apostles , and also the Oracles of the ancient Prophets do evidently teach us what we are to hold concerning God . Laying aside therefore all seditious contention , let us resolve the matters that are brought into question , by the Testimonies of the writings of Gods inspiration ] And Theodoret addeth , that [ While he spoke these and the like things to bring them to a consent in the Apostolical doctrine , all the Synod except a few Arrians obeyed and stablished concord on these terms .

Yet doth Andradius think to disable Constantines testimony by saying that the Arrians were pleased with these words of Constantine , See Andrad . T●ef . l. 2. fol. 110 , &c Where are the rest of his cavils . and Bellarmine vainly endeavoreth to lessen their esteem , because Constantine was no Doctor of the Church .

Salvianus Massil . de Provid li. 3. pag. ( mihi ) 62. Salvian saith [ Si scire vis quid tenendum sit habes literas , sacras perfecta ratis est hoc tenere quod legeris ] i. e. [ You see Scripture is the only Rule of Faith with him .

But I will once more stop this work of citations , it being so fully done already . Onely desiring the Reader to lay those before produced together with these last , and to compare with them , 1. the Protestants judgement , and then the Papists , I shall lay them here by him , that seeing them together he may the better judge .

And for the judgement of the Reformed Churches , I shall say no more then what I before mentioned out of their own Polidore Virgil [ That they are called Evangelical , because they maintain that no Law is to be received in matters of salvation , but what is delivered by Christ or his Apostles ] And this is in the Scripture fully contained and safely delivered to us ( which kind of Tradition of the books of the old and new Testament as Canonical , saith Molinaeus we readily receive , which is so far from being an addition to Scripture , that it tells us that nothing is to be added thereto ) Compare this with the Fathers judgment before laid down .

As for the Papists judgement you shall have it in their own words , lest we seem to wrong them .

Vasquez Tom. 2. Disp. 216. N. 60. saith [ Licet concederemus ho● fuisse Apostolorum praeceptum , nihil●minus Ecclesia & summus Pontifex potuerunt illud justis de causis abrogare : Neque enim maj●r fuit potestas Apostolorum , quam Ecclesiae & Pontificis inferendis praeceptis ] That is [ Though we should grant that this was a precept of the Apostles , nevertheless the Church and the Pope might upon just causes abrogate it : For the power of the Apostles was not greater then that of the Church , and Pope in making precepts . ]

The Council of Trent say , Sess. 21. c. 1.2 . that [ This power was alway in the Church , that in dispensing the Sacraments , saving the substance of them , it might ordain or change things as it should judge most expedient to the profit of the receiver . ] ( So that they may change any thing that God appointeth about Sacraments , except the substance : And it were well if they would have left that unchanged . )

The Council of Constance took the cup from the Laity [ Licet in primitiva Ecclesia hujusmodi sacramentum reciperetur a fidelibus sub utraque specie . ] Though in the primitive Church this Sacrament was received of the faithful under both kinds . ] So that they confess they contradict the Primitive Church .

Bellarmine plainly saith li. 4. de Pontif. c. 5. [ Si Papa erraret in praecipiendo vitia , vel prohibendo virtutes , teneretur Ecclesia credere vitia esse bona & virtutes malas , nisi vellet contra conscientiam peccare . ] That is [ If the Pope should erre in commanding vices , and forbidding virtues , the Church were bound to believe that vices are good , and vertues bad , unless they would sin against conscience . ] And against Barelay cap. 31. he saith [ In bono sensu dedit Christus Petro Potestatem faciendi de peccato non peccatum , & de non peccato , peccatum ] That is [ In a good sense Christ hath given power to Peter to make sin no sin , and no sin to be sin . ] ( compare this doctrine with the Fathers . )

The Glasse in Can. Lector Dist. 34. saith , [ Papa dispensat contra Apostolum ] The Pope dispenseth against the Apostle . ]

Innocent . 3. Decret. de conces . prebend . tit. 8. c. proposuit , saith [ Secundum plenitudinem potestatis de jure supra jus possumus dispensare ] According to the fullness of our power we can dispense with the Law above Law . ] And the Glosse addeth [ For the Pope dispenseth against the Apostle , and against the old Testament , as also in vows and oaths ] And another Gloss saith [ The Pope dispenseth with the Gospel , in interpreting it . ] More such Glosses you may find , if not yet more gross and impious ; which I 'le not stand to recite .

Gregory de Valentia Tom. 4. disp. 6. qu. 8. p. 5. § 10. saith [ Et certe quaedam posterioribus temp●ribus rectius constituta esse in Ecclesia quam initio se haberent ] That is [ And certainly some things are more rightly constituted in the Church in the latter times then they were in the beginning . ]

Andradius Defens . Concil. Trident. lib. 2. pag. ( mihi ) 236. saith [ Vnde etiam liquet minime eos errasse qui dicunt Romanos Pontifices posse nonnunquam in legibus dispensare a Paulo , primisque quatuor Conciliis ad Ecclesiam exornandam , moresque componendos pro temporum necessitate edictis , qualis est illa quae interdicit , ut digamos creari ne liceat Episcopos . ] i. e. [ Whence it appeareth that they did not erre who say that the Pope of Rome may sometime dispense with Lawes made by Paul and the four first Councils for the necessity of the times to the adoring of the Church and the composing of manners ; such as is that , which forbiddeth , those to be made Bishops who are the husbands of two wives . ]

Cardinal Perron against King James li. 2. Obser . 3. ● . 3. p. 674. hath a Chapter purposely [ Of the Authority of the Church to alter matters contained in the Scriptures ] And pag. 1109. & 1115. he saith , that [ When in the form of the Sacraments some great inconvenicies are met withal , the Church may therein dispense and alter . ] And that the Lords words [ Drink yee all of it ] were a precept not immutable nor in dispensable ] for [ the Church hath judged that there may be a dispensation for ●t . ]

B●ovius Observ . on C. 24. constit . Apost . saith [ Ecclesia Romana quae Apostolica utens potestate , singula pro conditione temporum in melius mutat ] i.e. [ The Church of Rome , using Apostolical power , doth according to the condition of times change all things for the better . ]

Cardinal Tolet saith [ Cum certum sit non omnia q●ae Apostoli instituerunt jure Divino esse instituta ] i. e. [ It is certain that all things which the Apostles instituted were not instituted by Divine right . ]

And the Council of Trent hath shewed its usurpation of power above Scripture , in dispensing with the degrees of Marriage in Lev. 18. & 20. adding to what God hath prohibited , and relaxing what God hath restrained , and that [ To Great Princes and for a publike cause ] When they make it sin to other men .

These and many more of their gross sayings and usurpations against Scripture and above it : they have been long ago told of by Jewell , Reignolds , Whittakers , Molinaeus , and others ; and how sleight their evasions are , the considerate and impartial may discern .

I have therefore recited thus much of their words here , that you may compare them with the Ancients , and then see who are the Changlings and Novelists , and who they be that keep to the old Church and Religion .

And among other ancient Writers I would desire you ( besides all the forecited ) to compare the Popish frame with the Directions of Vicentius Lirinensis , The sum of Vincentius Lirinensis adv Heres. which he giveth us for the discovery of Truth and avoiding heresie , in his book Contr. Haeres . Which I the rather mention , because I admire that the Papists should be so immodest as to boast so much of him as if he were on their side . The sum of his advice to avoid heresie , is this . 10 Fidem munire Divinae legis authoritate . 20 Ecclesiae Catholicae traditione : To fortifie our faith . 1. By the Authority of Gods Law . 2. By the Tradition of the Catholike Church . This way he saith he was himself directed to by all the holy Learned men that he enquired of : Saepa magno studio & summa attentioae perquirens a quamplurimis sanctitate & doctrina praestantibus viris quonam modo possem certa quadam & quasi generali ac regulari via Catholicae fidei veritatem ab haereticae pravitatis falsitate discernere , hujusmodi semper responsum ab omnibus fere retuli ] cap. 1. ( Edit. Colon. a. 1613 , & pag. 617. Edit. Perionii . Lugd. 1572. ) So that we are given to understand by this passage .

1. That this was no private opinion of Vincentius , but the common way that was then taken by Holy learned men to discern Truth from Heresie .

2. And note well that he doth not once in all the book direct us to the Determination , much less to the In●allible determination of the Pope or the Romane Church as the way to discern Truth from Heresie . And can any man of common reason that is willing to know the truth , imagine that there is the least probability that Vincentius should silence this Romish decision , in a Treatise written purposely and onely on that subject , and wherein he undertaketh to give us the full and certain direction to avoid Heresies , if the Church had then been of the Romanists opinion ? O intolerably forgetful , negligent , delusory man , that would not give us one word of that which is now the foundation of all , and into which our faith must be ultimately resolved ! What never a word to tell us that whatsoever the Pope or Clergy of Rome are for or against may be known accordingly to be true or false , because he is the infallible Head of the Church and decider of controversies !

3. Observe also that Vincentius doth fully and purposely acknowledge the Scripture sufficiency , and never once mention any Traditions as necessary to supply the defects of Scripture , or as part of Gods word when Scripture is but the other part . Not a word of such Traditions . But onely of Tradition subordinate to Scripture finaliter for the true expounding of them . Hear himself [ Cap. 2. Hic forsit an requirat aliquis : cum sit perfectus scripturarum Canon , sihique ad Omnia satis superque sufficiat , quid opus est ut ei Ecclesiasticae intelligentiae jungatur authoritas ? Quia videlicet scripturam sacram pro ipsa sua altitudine non uno eodemque sensu universi accipinut . ] And in his recapitulation Cap. 41. [ Diximu● in superioribus hanc fuisset semper est esse hodie Catholicorum consuetudinem , ut fidem veram duobus his modis approbent . Primum divini Canonis authoritate : deinde Ecclesiae Catholicae Traditione : Non quia Canon solus non sibi ad universa sufficiat ; sed quia verba Divina pro suo plerique arbitratu interpretantes varias opiniones errores que concipiant . ]

So that Scripture is sufficient ad omnia , ad universa , onely the Churches tradition , that is , interpretation is the safe way to avoid heresie , for the understanding of it .

4 Note also that the Catholike Church which Vincentius mentioneth is not the Romane Church any more then any other : but the Tradition that he referreth us to is , that which hath been taught or held ubique , semper , & ab omnibus : every where , alwayes , and by all .

5 Note also that it is not any authoritative Determination , of any person or persons whomsoever : but universal consent that he referreth u●to .

6. And it is not in lesser , probable , or controverted points : but in those great necessary points , which the Church hath wholly , every where , in all ages agreeed in .

7. Note diligently , that one of the cases he putteth is this , cap , 4. [ Quid si novella aliqua contagio non jam portiunculam tantum , sed totam pari●er Ecclesiam commaculare conetur ? ] i. e. [ But what if any novel contagion , shall not onely stain a small part of the Church , but also the whole Church ? ] A presumptuous Question in the Papists sence ! But what saith he to it ? doth he say , it is impossible ? no but [ Tunc item providebit , ut Antiquitati inhaeteat : quae prorsus jam non potest ab ulla novitatis fraude seduci ] i. e Then let him see that he stick to antiquity , which cannot at all now be seduced by any fraud of novelty . ] Here 1. he supposeth that the present Church may all erre ; 2. He makes the remedy to be an appeal to the ancient Church , and not as the Papists , to appeal in all cases to the present Church or Pope . ( Costerus seeks by a citation out of Tertullian in his Annot. to detort both . )

8. Lastly note diligently , that it is not in all cases that Vincentius leadeth us to the exposition of the Church and Fathers , but onely ( as in the weighty use beforesaid so ) in case of [ the newness of errors , when they first arise : before they falsifie the Rules of the ancient faith * * That is , before they corrupt antient Writers or grow so old as to pretend to antiquity themselves . , let them be forbidden by the straights of time ; and before by the large spreading of the poison they endeavor to vitiate the volumes of our Ancestors : But dilated and inveterate heresies are to be set upon this way , because by the long tract of time , they have had a long occasion of stealing truth ( that is , Antiquity and other signs of truth ) And therefore as for all those Ancient prophanesses of schismes or heresies , we must by no means convince them , but by the onely authority of Scripture , if there be need , or avoid them as certainly already of old convicted and condemned by the General Councils of Catholike Priests . ] They are his own words translated , pag. 677. Edit. Perionii , & pag. 87 , 88. Edit. Colon. 1613.

So that you see Vincentius supposeth error may infect all the Church , and may grow old and so seem to be the Truth , and in such cases onely Scripture must be pleaded against it , unless also we can produce some ancient Council that hath condemned it . This is the very case between us and the Papists : Their heresies are old , and far spread , though not universal nor of utmost antiquity : therefore between us and them the Scripture only must be pleaded . Where there is no need of a judge by reason of its plainness we need not go to the Ancient Church ; where there is need of an Expositor , we are content to deal with them on Vincentius grounds , and to admit of that which ubique , semper & ab omnibus hath been held in point of faith , if they will do the like ; And indeed this is our very Religion . Will the Papists but dispute their cause with us on these terms , we shall readily joyn issue with them , and doubt not of a good success . Of this see more in our Conradus Bergius Prax. Cathol. divin . Canonis .

THe Dispute which we have hitherto managed being only against Popery in the gross , and two or three branches of it onely in particular , I had thought to have annexed a Brief enumeration of the particular errors of the Papists , that the vulgar might observe and avoid them ; and therein I thought to have endeavored the true stating of the differences between us , both for the avoiding of error on the other extream , and also that we may take out of the Papists hands the greatest of all their advantages against us , which is the false-opposed opinions and unsound Arguments of such as thus erre on the other side : But perceiving how it would lengthen this work beyond the intended limits , and how certainly all those that so run into extreams would fall a quarrelling with me for not stating the controversies according to their fancies , I have thought best for answering all my ends at cheaper rates to give you the chief of the Popish errors in the words of Doctor Feild , and to that end to tran●●ribe his seventh Chapter of the third Book ; that so the simple Reader may have some help to in●orm him without a commixed means to pervert him . And for those that desire to see the Protestant Doctrine solidly defended , and cannot have time to read many books , I know not of any one that they may more profitably and safely read to that end then the said Book of Doctor Field on the Church ; and especially the Appendix to the third part , which is but the Defence of this very Chapter , proving it in particulars , that the Western Church was Protestant and not Popish even in the worst times before Luthers Reformation ; and that the Papists were but a seducing tyrannical party in the Church , endeavoring to obtrude their errors against the mind of the generality of good men : In which he hath quite broken down those pretences of Vniversality and [ All the Church ] which the Papists do so fondly boast in .

Dr. Feild of the Church , li. 3. Cap 7.

Of the several points of difference between us and our adversaries , wherein some in the Church erred , but not the whole Church .

FOr neither did that Church , wherein our Fathers lived and dyed ● hold that Canon of Scripture , which the Romanists now urge ; nor that in sufficiency they now charge it with ; nor corruption of the Originals , nor necessity of following the vulgar Translation ; nor the Heresies touching mans creation brought into the Church by certain barbarous Schoolmen , as that there are three different estates of men ; the first of pure nature , without addition of Grace , or sin ; and two other , the one of Grace , the other of Sin : That all those evils that are found in the nature of man , since his fall , as Ignorance , Concupiscence , Contrariety between the better and meaner faculties of the Soul , difficulty to do well , and proneness to do evil , were all natural , the conditions of pure nature , that is , of nature , as considered in it self , it would come forth from God : That these evils are not sinful , nor had their beginnings from sin , that they were the consequents of nature in the state of creation , but restrained by addition of supernatural Grace , without which the integrity of nature was full and perfect : That men in the state of pure nature , that is , as they might have been created of God in the integrity of Nature , without addition of Grace , and in the estate of Original sin , differ no otherwise , but as they that never had , and they that have lost rich and precious cloathing ; so that Original sin is but the loss of that , without which natures integrity may stand : That no evils are brought in by the fall , but nature left to her self to feel that which was before , but not felt , nor discerned while the addition of Grace bettered nature : None of these errors , touching the estate of mans creation , were the Doctrines of the Church , but the private fancies and conceits of men .

So likewise touching Original Sin , there were that taught , that it is not inherent in each particular man born of Adam , but that Adams personal sin is imputed onely : That the propagation of sin is not general , Mary being conceived without Original sin : That the punishment of it is not any sensible smart , or positive evil , but privative onely ; and that therefore there is a third place , neither Hell , nor Heaven , named , Limbus Puerorum ; which is a place , whereas some think , they who are cond●mned thither , though they be excluded from the Kingdom of Heaven , and all possibility of ever coming thither , yet are in a state of natural happiness , and do enjoy the sweet content of Eternal Life . These Pelagian Heresies were taught in the Church of God , but they were not the Doctrines of the Chu●ch , being condemned , rejected and refuted , as contrary to the Christian Verity , by many worthy members and guides of the Church : who as they never received these parts of false Doctrine : So likewise the Church wherein they lived , neither know , nor approved that distinction and difference of venial and mortal sins , which the Romanists now Teach , nor power of nature to do the works of the Law according to the substance of the things commanded , though not according to the intention of the Law-giver to love God above all , and to do acti●●s morally good , or not sinful , without concurrence of special Grace , nor election and reprobation depending on the foresight of something in us positive or privative ; nor merit of congruence and condignity ; nor works of supererogation ; nor counsels of perfection , as they now teach ; nor justification by perfection of inherent qualities ; nor uncertainty of Grace ; nor seven Sacraments properly so named , nor local presence ; nor Transubstantiation ; nor ●rall manducation of the body of Christ , nor real sacrificing of it for the quick and the dead : nor remission of sins after this Life ; nor tormenting of the souls of men dying in the state of Salvation in a part of Hell , hundreds of years , by Divels in corporal fire ( out of which , prayer should deliver ●hem ) nor that the Saints hear our Prayers , ●ow or are acquainted with our particular wants : nor the gross idolatry in those times committed , and intollerable abuses found in the number , fashion , and worship of their images : nor their absolution , as now they define it : nor treasure of the Church growing out of the superstuity of Saints merits , not rewardable in themselves , to be disposed by the Pope for the supply of other mens wants to release them out of Purgatory by way of indulgence : nor the infallibility of the Popes judgement , and plenitude of his power such and so great that he may dep●s● Princes , and dispose of their Crowns , and digr●●ie● and that whatsoever he doth he may not be brough● into order , or deposed by authority of the whole world in a general Council .

Those are the errors which we condemne and our adversaries maintain and defend : these we are all assured were not the Doctrines of that Church wherein our Fathers lived and dyed , though we do not deny , but they were taught by some in that Church . All these we offer to prove to be error in matter of our Christian faith , and that seeing we could have peace no longer with our adversaries , but by approving these impieties , we had just cause to divide our selves from them , or ( to speak more properly ) to suffer our selves to be accursed , anathematized , and rejected by them , rather then to subscribe to so many errors , and heresies , contrary to the Christian , and Catholike verity .

WHereas the Papists have little else to say to us , but onely to call still for a Catalogue of Professors to prove the successive visibility of our Church ; we require of them first an answer to those Writings that have been extant so long on this subject : especially Bishop Vsher de successione & Statu Eccles. and his answer to the Jesuits challenge ( Defended by Master Sing and Master Puttock ) Doctor Fields Treat . of the Church , especially the Appendix to the third part : Simon Birkbecks Protestants evidence : Doctor Whites Way to the true Church . Abbot against ▪ Hill . Illiricus his Catalogues testium veritatis . Mornays two Treatises of the Church , and the Mystery of iniquity ( to say nothing of that of the Mass ) Johan . Lidii Waldens . Nicol. Vignier Ecclesiast. Histor. And the confessions of your own Writers : Your after Pope Aenaeas Sylvius Histor. Bohem. and that commonly cited passage of your inquisitor Rainnerius , which I will adjoyn .

Rainerius contr. Waldens. cap 4. Inter omnes sectas que adhuc sunt & fuerunt , non est perniciosior Ecclesiae quam ea Leonistarum , idque tribus de causis . 1. Quia est diuturnior : aliqui enim dicunt quod duravit a tempore Silvestri : alii a tempore Apostolorum . 2. Quia est generalior : fere enim nulla terra est in qua haec secta non sit . 3. Quia cum omnes aliae sectae immanitate Blasphemiarum in Deum audientibus horrorem inducant ; haec scilicet Leonistarum magna habet speciem pietatis , eo quod coram omnibus juste vivant , & bene omnia de Deo credant , & omnes articules qui in symbolo continentur : solummodo Romanam Ecclesiam blasphemant et Clerum .

That is [ Among all the Sects that yet are and have been there is not a more pernicious to the Church then that of the Lyonists , and that for three causes . 1. Because it is the more 〈◊〉 ( or of longer continuance ) for some 〈◊〉 it hath endured from the time of Silvester ; other from the time of the Apostles . 2. Because it is more general , for there is scarce any land in which this ●ect ●s not . 3. Because , when all other sects do by the immanity of their blasphemy bring horror into the hearers ; this of the Lyonists hath a great shew of godliness ; in that they live righteously before all men , and they believe all things well concerning God , and all the articles that are contained in the Creed : onely they blasphem the Romane Church , and the Clergy .

To this adde what I cited out of Canus and others before .

Lastly , Give us some tolerable answer to all that voluminous evidence of your oppositions , by Princes , Prelates , Divines and Lawyers , which Mich. Goldastus hath collected and published , on his volumes de Monarche & constitut . Imperial .