A third defence of the cause of peace proving 1. the need of our concord, 2. the impossibility of it, on the terms of the present impositions against the accusations and storms of, viz., Mr. John Hinckley, a nameless impleader, a nameless reflector, or Speculum, &c., Mr. John Cheny's second accusation, Mr. Roger L'Strange, justice, &c., the Dialogue between the Pope and a fanatic, J. Varney's phanatic Prophesie / by Richard Baxter.

A THIRD DEFENCE Of the CAUSE of PEACE , PROVING 1. The need of our Concord . 2. The Impossibility of it , on the Terms of the present Impositions . Against the Accusations and Storms of , VIZ. Mr. John Hinckley . A Nameless Impleader . A Nameless Reflector , or Speculum , &c. Mr. John Cheney's Second Accusation . Mr. Roger L'Strange , Justice , &c. The Dialogue between the Pope and a Fanatic . J. Varney's Phanatic Prophesie .

By RICHARD BAXTER .

Psalm 120. 6. 7.

My Soul hath long dwelt with him that hateth peace . I am for peace , but when I speak they are for war .

Rom. 3. 17.

The way of peace they have not known .

London , Printed for Jacob Sampson , next to the Wonder Tavern in Ludgate-Street . 1681.

Readers ,

IF this striving work be unpleasant to you , it must be much more so to me : It is not the least advantage that Satan getteth against the Church , that by other mens sins he can occasion that to become our duty , which else would be a sinfull loss of time , and against the peace of our selves and others . A multitude of heresies make it our duty , to read abundance of Books , and study those languages , and trifling Arts , which else were needless : And the multitude of Erroneous , malignant , and other adversaries , and the variety of their assaults , maketh many Defences , Evidences , Witnesses , and Confutations necessary , which else would signifie that evil Contentiousness , which the assaulters manifest . Though the servant of the Lord must not strive , yet must we contend earnestly for the Faith , and must not forsake and betray truth and innocency . And the necessitated Defender may do his duty , while the wilfull Aggressor doth sinfully militate against Truth , Charity , and Peace . And as we must love our Enemies , so we take our selves bound much more , to love our tempted envyous brethren ; and if they use us as Joseph , cast us into the Pit and sell us as slaves , we will call them brethren still , and hope one day their repentance will render them more lovely than they are . And though some Preach Christ in Envy , Strife , and Contention , to add to our affliction , and not sincerely , we rejoyce and will rejoyce that Christ is Preached : And though they would drive us out from the inheritance of the Lord , 1 Sam. 26. 19. We will not venture with David to curse them , but say as he in another pursuit , 2 Sam. 15. 25. 26. Carry back the Ark of God into the City : If I shall find favour in the Eyes of the Lord , he will bring me again , and shew me both it and his Habitation . But if he thus say , I have no delight in thee , behold , here am I , let him do to me as seemeth good to him . In my endeavours for peace these Thirty Four Years , as I have been put to publish many things which I had rather might have been spared , so I have written to satisfie others , the Quantity of many Volumes , which I cast away as unnecessary to the World . But some men that I have dealt with , will not give me and the Reader such an indulgence .

Mr. Dodwell is one who shall have his answer by it self . Mr. Hinkley is another , to whose last Letter I wrote an answer about Nine Years ago : But he would not so bury his Talent , but hath printed my former Letters with his answer , and so called and constrained me to publish my last reply . Fame reporteth that the Impleader is Mr. Long of Exeter , who heretofore wrote an Accusing Book , of which I gave him a private Epistolary Animadversion . Who the Reflector or the Author of the Speculum is I know not , the Subject calleth me to no particular Answer . He and Mr. Roger le strange , who argue in the same Mood and Figure , make me little work : which concerneth others , They mistook the question , as if it had been , what the World should think of me . In which I leave them to their Liberty without much contradiction .

But our question is First , whether the Concord of Protestants being supposed necessary , the silencing , imprisoning , fining , and banishing from Corporations , all Ministers that take Conformity to the present Impositions to be a sin , be the way of Peace and Concord , either probable or possible to attain the end . Mr. John Cheny , I judge a godly serious man : who being neer me and familiar with me , never told me a word of his exceptions , nor gave me the least touch of a private Admonition for all the Atheism , Infidelity , Wickedness , Abomination , destroying all Religion &c. Which he accuseth me of in print : And his Book is so dismal a piece of work , in its extraordinary privation of Common Reason , Truth , Charity , Tenderness and Modesty , that I am constrained to think that the honest man is diseasedly melancholly : And I have known some well meaning men in that disease , that are so tenacious of all their own Conceptions , that they are still fiercely confident that the grossest things that they hold and say are right , and passionately reject all that is said against them . Whom he hath reported to be his Instigator , I shall not here proclaim . The Dialogue between the Pope and a Phanatick , and Joh. Varney's Prophesie , I leave the Reader to answer himself , as he findeth cause . If any man think it a service to God to accuse me and others , and justifie our silencing and the imposed penalties , I intreat him to remember the Ninth Commandement , and that God and his Church need not Lies for their Service , but it s he that is both the Father of them , and a Lyar from the beginning . That was a lying Spirit in the Mouth of all Ahabs Prophets , ( even of him that smote Mica●ah , for supposing the Spirit of God departed from him , ) and whose work on Earth against Christ and Souls , is done by Deceit , and Wrath , and Hurtfulness ; Imitating him will disgrace your cause and you : And Light will not so easily be hid . Great is truth and will finally prevaile . And all the waves do but break themselves , who dash against this impregnable rock . I call this Book , A Third Defence of the cause of Peace , with respect to two former , One in answer to the Accusation of Mr. John Cheny , the other in answer to Dr. Edward Stillingfleet , men whom I once thought more unlikely than most other to become our Accusers .

All Mr. Gouge's WORKS .

POlitical and Military Observations of the Court and Camp of France during the late Wars in Flanders , Germany , &c.

Sacramental Meditations upon divers select places of Scripture , wherein Believers are assisted in preparing their hearts , and exciting their Affections and Graces , when they draw nigh to God in that most awful solemn Ordinance of the Lords Supper . By John Flavel Minister of Christ , in Devon . 12o . price 1 s. 6 d.

A peaceable resolution of Conscience touching our present Impositions , wherein Loyalty and Obedience are proposed and settled upon their true Foundation in Scripture , Reason , and Constitution of this Kingdom against all resistance of the present Powers , and with compliance with the Laws so far as may be in order to Union . With a Draught or Specimen of a Bill for Accommodation . Octavo , price 2 s.

The Narrative of Rob. Bolron of Shippon-hall , Gent. concerning the late horrid Polish Plot and Conspiracy , for the Destruction of His Majesty and the Protestant Religion : Wherein is contained ,

1. His Informations upon Oath before His Majesty in Council , and before several Justices of the Peace , of the said Design , and the means by which he arrived at the knowledge thereof .

2. Some particular Applications made to himself to assist those design'd in the murdering of his Majesty ; the persons by whom such Applications were made , and the Reward promised .

3. The project of the Popish party to Erect a Nunnery at Dolebanck near Ripely in Yorkshire , together with the Names of some Nuns , actually design'd for that Imployment , and taking the Profession upon them : As also an Account of a certain Estate of 90 l. per annum , given by Sir Thomas Gascoigne to the Nunnery for ever . With other remarkable Passages relating to the horrid Piot . Together with an Account of the Endeavours that were used by the Popish party to stifle his Evidence .

The Narrative of Lawrence Mowbray of Leeds in the County of York , Gent. concerning the bloody Popish Conspiracy against the Life of his Sacred Majesty , the Government , and the Protestant Religion :

Wherein is contained ,

1. His knowledge of the said Design from the very first in the Year 1676 ; with the Opportunity he had to be acquainted therewith , and the Reasons why he concealed it so long : with the manner of his discovering the said wicked Project to his Majesty , and his most honourable Privy Council .

2. How far Sir Thomas Gascoigne , Sir Miles Stapleton , &c. are ingaged in the Design of Killing the King , and Fireing the City of London and York , for the more speedy setting uppermost the Popish Religion in England .

3. An Account of the Assemblings of many Popish Priests and Jesuits at Father Rishton's Chamber , at Sir Thomas Gascoigue's house at Barmebow ; with their , Consultations and Determinations : with other considerable matters relating to the Plot. Together with an account of the Endeavours that were used to stifle his Evidence , by making an Attempt upon his Life in Leicester Fields : price 6 d.

A Memento for the English Protestants , &c. with an Answer to that part of the Compendium which reflects on the Bishop of Lincoln's late Book . Quarto : price stitcht 6 d.

Naked Truth , the first part : Being the true state of the Primitive Church . By an humble Moderator : price stitcht one shilling .

Causa Dei ; Or an Apology for God : wherein the perpetuity of Insernal Torments is evinced , and Divine Goodness and Justice ( that notwithstanding ) defended , &c. By Richard Burthogge , M. D.

Tulli's elect Orations .

Gouge's Works , Octavo .

Horrid Popish Plot in a Pack of Cards

A second Pack , continuing a Representation of their Villainous Design , from the publication of the first Pack to the last Sessions of Parliament , begun Octob. 21. 1680.

AN ANSWER TO MR. HINCKLEY . SIR ,

I Have perused yours , ( I think Impartially ) and to tell you my Judgment of it , I perceive , is like to offend you more . I find it is natural to men to desire to be thought to be in the right , and to have said well , and done well , be it never so ill . It is some Honour to Truth and Goodness , that the Names and Reputation of them seem desirable to those that cannot endure the things ; yea , that the Things are never loathed or opposed formally as such , but for their opposition to somewhat , that is more loved . And it is some help to the depression of Falshood and Sin , that it is ashamed of its own Name , and cannot endure to see its own Face , which hath ever inclined it to break the Glass ; though to its greater shame , when every piece will shew that ugliness which was shewed but by the whole before . If nothing else had notified it to us , one might have strongly suspected that you are of that Tribe , who take themselves to be persecuted when they may not domineer , and when others may but Preach and live without their Consent ; by your excessive tenderness and impatience , calling it Poyson , Hornets , and abundance of such smarting angry Names , if a man that is cast out of God's Vineyard as well as his Maintenance among many hundreds more , do but plainly in a private Letter speak for himself , and shew the injustice of your Printed Accusations . O! that you were all but the thousandth part as tender , ( I will not say of your Brethrens sufferings ) but of the danger of many thousand perishing starved Souls ? I shall only tell you this much in general , that I now perceive you are used but for a Temptation to me , to lose my time , by the neglect of better Work . And that you do so notoriously bawk the Truth , and hide Untruth in a heap of Confident Rhetorical Flourishes ; that while you are of this temperament , I will not undertake to prove to you that Two and Two are Four .

1. My Beginning was taken from your Ending ; where you wrote [ You will satisfie your self , as little as you will do others ] And what others Mind know you better than your own ? And sure that which satisfieth not you , doth you no good as to its proper end , what ever it may do by accident some other way . Yet it seems you forgot that you had written this , and that was warrant enough for all your confident Impertinencies on that occasion . Sandy foundations , light and darkness , Hornets Nests , rushing into the midst of the Pikes , waking Dragons , the golden Fleece , &c. come all in upon this your oversight : And you seem to think that you have acquit your self well .

2. You tell me of bringing the Controversie to an issue by dint of Scripture , whether you sin in Conforming . Is this fairly done , to pretend that to be the Controversie which I never undertook to meddle with ? Could you possibly forget , 1. That You were the Plaintiff and Accuser in Print , not content that your Brethren were forbidden to Preach Christ , and that many of them live in great poverty and want ? You wrote a Book of reproachful Oratory , with no strength of Argument worthy an Answer , to make them seem the flagitious Causes of their own silence and sufferings : Against which , they ( that meddled not with you ) had nothing to do but to justifie themselves . 2. That in this Book you vehemently importune me , who never knew you , nor meddled with you , to give the World the Reasons of my Non-conformity . 3. That hereupon the Question that I treated about with you , was , How I may have leave to do it . And whether it be ingenious thus publickly to urge me to that which you know I cannot do . This was all the Controversie I had with you . I tell you again , I would go on my knees to any Bishop in England , to procure but License for my self alone , ( much more my Brethren ) to Write and Print the Reasons of our Non-conformity , after Nine years Silence , Suffering , and Accusation ; that the World and Posterity may but once hear us speak for our selves : And I would be engaged to leave out all such plain expressions as now offend you . But to begin such a Work , when I know I cannot Print it ; or to enter a Dispute with you in this rambling way , ( whose Books and Letters tell me that you will Syllogize in Aristophanes , or Lucian's Moods and Figures ; and whose Logick will take up no greater room among your Oratorical Diversions , Evasions , Subterfuges , and Flosculi , than a spoonful of Wine in a Gallon of Water , which will leave it Water still . I shall not easily be drawn to this , having lost so much time upon you already , as I have done : Therefore you here bring in your Serpents Head and Tail and Fable , upon a false Supposition of the Subject of our Debates .

§ . 1. Here first , you would have your Book go for Innocent ; no wonder : Impenitence is no rarity , among those whose office is to Preach Repentance : And therefore so many of them go without the Fruits of it , Matth. 7. 22 , 23. And he that can write against Truth , can defend it by Untruth . 2. You untruly suppose me to undertake the Confutation of your Book . But who hath so little to do , as to shew particularly of each Page and Line of a Bundle of impotent Oratorian Revilings , how little Logick or Truth is in them . 3. You untruly suppose me not to have opened the faultiness of any Page of your Book : Let the Impartial judge . 4. In all , you shew the strange unacquaintedness with your Self , and your Own , which you cannot endure to be told of . A Calumniating Volume of yours is Innocent , and affordeth no matter for blame or repentance : But to be told so , is to let fall such Drops on you as make you smart ( you say ) as if there had been poyson in them . If we that are forbidden to eat a Bit , or wear a Rag of the Levites Portion , or come within Five Miles of any Corporation , or Preach Christ to the most ignorant miserable Souls ; do but think and say , it is hard usage : We add to our guilt , and deserve yet worse , because we do not Toto pectore telum recipere : Or as Camero , unbutton our Doublets , and cry , Feri miser . But if we tell you of it , when you voluminously play with Reproaches upon them , that you are utterly unable to prove guilty and confute ; Oh , it maketh you smart like poyson . Guilt is always tender , but most in the Domineering Tribe . They are contemned and scorned , if we take not their strokes for stroakings , and their calumnies for kindness : And to tell them that their slanders are injuries , is to call them to veil their Bonnets to us , and we are Popular Rabbies ( for being against the Rabbies ) if the people ( that know them and us , will not ( because they cannot ) believe all the falshoods which such report of us , who find no readier and surer steps for their Ascension to their desired Heights .

§ . 2. First , Here you would be my T●●●r in Logick , to teach me that the Species is no● comprehended in the Genus . And that I transgr●ss the Laws of Discourse , in supposing that what was spoken against the Non-conformists , as such , was spoken against the Presbyterian Non-conformists . This is my inclosing and limiting : As if I had offended by saying , that you say that against Man , which you say against an Animal as such . And this Talk needs a Confutation ? But was not the Discipline calumniated , which I noted a sufficient explication of your sense . 2. And here you condensate your Untruths : As first , That there were but few who were not then tantum non Independants , which the Age you live in knows to be false . 2. That I intimate , that they are all of a sudden become Presbyterians , Because Presbyterians are a part of them : so part and whole are not distinguishable by the Logick of the Gamaliels , whose Instruction I mist of . When I have oft Published , that ( besides Scotland , Lancashire , and London ) I knew no great number of Ministers that received the Presbyterian Model : But almost all those in the County where you live ( Worcestershire ) Declared , that they agreed to joyn in the Practice of so much of Church Discipline , as the Episcopal Presbyterians and Independents were all agreed in ; and on those grounds to unite for the promoting of the Peoples Instruction and Salvation , without dividing for the Controverted parts , or laying a greater stress on them , than there was cause for ; yet here you have occasion to talk of the transmutation of Elements , &c.

§ . 3. Here you want Conviction still ! If so , I will not undertake to Convince you of any thing in the World which you are unwilling to know . Offer the case to an uninterested Stranger , and take his Judgment . Tell him this Truth [ Eighteen hundred Ministers are at once forbidden to Preach Christ according to their Ordination Vow : And when upon that Dedication they had alienanated themselves from all other ways of Employment and Livelihood , they and their Families are cast upon Alms in a time of extraordinary poverty , except some of them that had somewhat of their own : None of all these are put out for Ignorance , Insufficiency , or any Crime or scandal at all ; But for not subscribing Assent and Consens to all things ( without exception ) in Three Books written by men that profess that General Councils are fallible , even in matters of Faith : And for not declaring , that no man ( that vowed it ) is obliged to endeavour in his Place and Calling , any alteration of the present Church Government ( which some think the unsworn as much bound to endeavour , as to Reform the worst Alehouse or Tavern in the Land : Especially whilst Lay-men Govern by the Keys of Excommunication and Absolution ) And for not swearing and unswearing , &c. as is known , with such like things . These Men thus ejected and silenced , are forbidden , upon severe Penalties , Ecclesiastical and Corporal , to speak any thing in depravation of the Government of the Church , the Liturgy or Ceremonies , and under the penalty of total ruine in this World : To say that any man is bound by the National Vow to endeavour any alteration as aforesaid . A Law forbiddeth Printers to Print any unlicensed Book , upon penalty of losing all the Copies , Paper , and Print ; besides , answering for all therein contained . The Company in London is called together , and constrained ( as holding their Charter by Patent ; ) to make Laws also among themselves , That any man that Printeth an unlicensed Book , or Leaf , shall lose his Freedom , and become uncapable of their Trade ( and so be utterly undone . ) A Conforming Minister ( for ends best known to himself ) Writeth a Book called a Perswasive to Conformity , which containeth not the twentieth part of the Argument commonly before used by others ; Saravia , Hammond , Downame , Bilson , Burges , Fulwood , &c. ) which the Non-conformists are supposed to have studied : But florid Oratorical , confident Calumnies , most of the Book importing ; an Ignoratio Elenchi : And in this Book he vehemently urgeth one man particularly , that never saw him , nor meddled with him ; to publish to the World , An account of the Reasons of his Non-conformity . This one man tells him , that no Licenser will license it : That he hath not Printed without License , before his importunity since the Act : That some few Printers through poverty have ventured on a few Sheets , which they could quickly slip out of the way . But now severity having encreased their penalty , he knoweth not of one man that will venture so far : That if they would , it will do him no good , who hath so much to say against Conformity , as a few sheets will not contain ; and he knoweth not of that man living that would Print : And , that should he do it , he must look for such an Imprisonment as is likely to be his death : And therefore he thinketh that his Time and Life may be more usefully employed ; especially when Experience assureth him , that such a Writing would passionately displease the Prelates of the Church , and such as call for it . And therefore that he did not ingenuously that clamoured thus for an account , when he knew that all these Manacles were on our Hands : Yet will not this man be convinced but his Clamour was reasonable and innocent , because in a few Sheets that accidentally had an advantage to see the light , ( being both for the Kings and the Churches Government ) he met with a few words which he thought were not to be licensed . And if this were published without License , it was most long of himself , since his foresaid urgency , no such thing being done before , nor do I know how to procure the like again .

This is the true Case ; And now let any sober Person , Christian , or Heathen , judge betwen us , whether any thing could have hardned you into an impossibility of Conviction , but the great aversness to Humiliation and Repentance , and selfish inclination to be righteous in your own eyes ? No wonder if no man be justified as Legally innocent , when a bare Confession of a deliberate printed sin , as visible as a beam in the eye ( as Christ meant it ) is so hardly obtained with some men : And ( because with what measure men meet , it shall be measured to them again . ) Wonder not if you meet with Auditors like your self : Suppose that You whose Office is to Preach Men to Repentance , do hear the Perjured , the Drunkards , Blasphemers , the F●rnicators say , This man is a Rayler , he drops smarting poyson upon us in his Sermons ; When we hear him , we deal with a Woolf , and put our hands into a Hornets nest ; bitterness and reviling is his Dialect ; We are innocent , and all that he saith doth not convince us . What would you say to such returns ? But too many think that it is their work to preach Repentance , and other mens to Repent . As for Magistrates forbidding faithful Ministers to preach the Christian Faith , where there are not enough more to do the Work : Cannot you be content with the Honour , Comfort , and Reward of approving it , and suffer such to be without it , as refuse it . But when you say [ Alas , Church censures without the Magistrate are but brutum fulmen ] I will presume to tell you ; 1. That you seem to me to come near to Blasphemy , to intimate that Christ ordained so vain a Discipline : What ? and yet be the Infallibe Teacher and King of the Church . But if you think that He did not Institute it , tell us so plainly , and pretend not more to an unalterable Divine Institution , which all of us must swear never to endeavour an alteration of . Or if you think that Christ did institute Church Discipline to be exercised , only when the Sword will second it ; say so , that we may know your mind . And then 2ly , Do you not make the Apostles and the Primitive Church for above 300 years , to have abused the World with this brutum fulmen . If you talk of the Apostles power of seconding it by miraculous Penalties . I answer , 1. It cannot be proved that they did so ordinarily , but only extraordinarily . 2. All Pastors and Churches then had not that power , that yet were obliged to exercise Discipline . 3. The Church for 300 years had not that power every where . 4. And Discipline was to operate propria virtute , and not only by Miracles . So that you reproach the Apostles , and all the ancient Churches . 3. Do you not reproach all the ancient Councils and Canons of those times , as making such a stir in the World about a brutum fulmen . 4. Do you not reproach Constantine , and other Christian Emperors , who for a considerable time adjoyned not the Sword at all to the Churches Keys , except to remove some great Patriarch that had influence on the State ; and long after did only force them to a quiet submission to the Discipline , without the addition of another Penalty , or constraining any to say , they did repent . How long was it before the Church took a man to be meet for her Communion in the Lords Supper , that had but rather say , that he repented , than have all taken from him , and lie in Prison . 5. Do you not here tell us what you trust to , even the Magistrates Sword alone : And do you not disgrace your Cause and Function , in telling the World in plain English , that without the Sword , Prelatical Discipline is but brutum fulmen ? What then would your Church be , should the King leave it only to an equal Toleration with all other Parties . 6. And do you not highly honour us Non-conformists , that desire no greater matters , than bare Leave to Exercise Christs Discipline without the Sword , on Volunteers ; we would have no more . If any have formerly desired more , we disown it . The Scots indeed had more , but when Cromwell left them but their Liberty , their Discipline proved not brutum fulmen . And truly I see not how those few among them that are against the Supremacy of the King , Circa sacra , if there be any such , can expect any further protection or help by his Sword , than a bare Toleration . Let us but Preach and use this brutum fulmen , and then enjoy your Lordships , Honours , and all that is desired . And why are you so greatly afraid of a brutum fulmen in our hands , when you confess it to be no better in your own .

§ . 4. If you cannot see your Contradictions , repeating them will not open your Eyes . As for Valentine and Orson , and Knights Errant , I give you the honour of being better acquainted with them , than I am . 2. And next you teach us , that according to your School , a Question may be false . Well! so let it be , you shall there have the better also . I knew no more but that some kind of Questioning might imply a Proposition which is false . But I will not strive with you , if you are wiser . The Question was , [ How many of these Ministers have little more Learning than the English Books have taught them . ] If this Question be false , false let it be : I cannot make it true , I would I knew what [ How many ] fignifieth .

And what could I do more to detect your falshood , than Name you many that dwell about you , Seven neare you I named . And now ( O the power of Innocency and worth ) all those for their Gravity , Sobriety , Learning and Peaceableness , you have as much esteem for as I can have ] And really I hope as bad as they , and their adversaries judge each other , were they all better acquainted with each other , the rest would constrain their afflicters themselves to such a praise and approbation , an inconsiderable number only excepted .

But who else should I name in the County where you live , and near you , Mr. Joseph Baker , Mr. Benjamin Baxster , Mr. George Hopkins , Mr. Waldern , &c. are dead . Those living are Mr. Ambrose Sparrey , ( your predecessour at Hampton ) Mr. Andrew Tristram , Mr. Kimberley , Mr. Osland , Mr. Badland of Worcester , Mr. Sergeant , Dr. Richard Morton , Mr. Stephen Baxter , Mr. Richard Dowley , Mr. Cowper , Mr. Paston , Mr. Read , I cannot remember all . Tell me how many and which of those you mean . The Elder about you dead , were on our side , Mr. Arthur Salway , Mr. John Hall , Mr. Thomas Hall , ( your next Neighbour ) Mr. Smith at Dudley , Mr. Smith at Stoke , ( a younger Man ) and not far of Mr. Anthony Burgess , Mr. Blake , &c. which of these mean you ? And what if you can Name one unlearned Man , in Forty or Fifty . If he be but a meer Nonconformist , and not of some such Sect , with whom we have not much more affinity than with the Papists ( who conform not , and yet say they are nearer to you than to us ) I doubt , that odd unlearned Man , should he but conform , would be a great ornament to your present Church . But what course can one better take to silence such Calumnies , and to convince Posterity of such mens incredibility , than to Name the persons round about ? How many hundred worthy men in London , and a few Counties of my acquaintance could I Name you . And you say , it is a usual Stratagem with us , to possess particular persons with an opinion that you detract from them : It is bad arguing Syllogizare ex particulari ] Excellent Logick ! He that condemneth the Non-conformists , and the ejected Ministers as meer illiterate , doth not condemn the Individuals , though it came in with an How many . ] I never said , that you condemn them all ; but I askt you , as you did me , How many . And is this like syllogizing ex particulari . ] Do you intimate an Accusation against Many of them ; and when I name almost all of that County neer you , will you absolve them all ?

2. Next you say [ Those I intended have your suffrage ] Because I said [ I had rather have a meer English Divine , than an Hebrew or a Syriac Sot . It seems you are of another mind : A Sot will serve to preach Divinity , and seek mens salvation , We feel the judgment of more than you ; and this was enough to set you upon blew Aprons , &c. How forgot you Tub-Preachers ?

3. And you would fain steal some honour to your self from the Universities as a Defender of them : O happy advantage ! But who accused them ? I said [ I am grown of late years to take it for no very great honour to our young Preachers , that they are acquainted with the Universities . ] And you put [ It is ] for [ I take it ] and so I take it still . But late years signifieth not [ always ] nor [ our young Preachers ] all [ Preachers . Doth he that dishonoureth the University , deserve honour for being at the University ? What young ones you have I know not ; but our young ones that I speak of , do not yet go about to change my mind . Do you think all those named ( though he did not well ) by the Glocester Cobler Ralph Wallis , are an honour to the University , or it to them : I still take it for no very great honour , ( I said not none ) for any ignorant , idle Lad , to have been at the University : But sure I obtruded not this judgment on you or any other ! Yet here is place for Corah's holy Congregation , eclipsing the two Luminaries , Agamemnon , the Sodomites , and more such stuff . And shall it be the Controversie , whether you or I have written more for Learning and Universities ; and which of us did more to save them from the Anabaptists and other Fanaticks when they were endangered ? The visible Evidences shall decide the Case . You may be more beholden to the Universities than I ; but I have done more than wish their prosperity as well as you . But Quidvis ex quovis is your way . There went about Eleven or twelve out of Kederminster Parish and School to the University and Ministry in my time , and many since : If you please enquire of the difference .

3. And when you tell me , that I deal no better with the Primitive Fathers ; I first ask you , how could you make shift to be ignorant how ill you use the ancient Presbyters , yea and Bishops of the Church your self ? were they not mostly blew Aprons with you , and such as you disdain for want of Hebrew , &c. Know you not that the Paucity of Learned Presbyters was the true Cause that the few that were such , got the place , and honour , and power of Bishops above the rest : And how few Philosophers turned Christians then ? And how long it was before the Christians had many considerable Schools , much less Universities ? And what men the common Presbyters were ; yea , and the Bishops for the most part ? Alexandria by Pantaenus , Clemens and Origen kept up some competent Learning ; Basil , Nazianzen , Nissen , Chrysostom , were fain to go to such as Libanius , and to Athens ; except those forenamed , and Justin Martyr , and Tertullian before them , and Hierom after : how few either Linguists or Philosophers had we : And yet do not you account those holy and worthy men , blew Aprons , such as Ignatius , Polycarpus , Irenaeus , yea and Cyprian , almost all the Bishops of Rome , Graeg . Neocaesar . Antonius , Ab. Pachomius , Macarius ; yea Epiphanius himself , Ephrem Syrus , Isidore Pelesiota , Ambrose , Philastrius , Theoph. Alexand , Ruffinus , Gaudentius , Maximus , &c. Besides Simeon Stillita , and all the holy Famous Monks ; yea Augustinus himself , the best rational Divine had little enough of the Tongues . Their Writings easily prove all this , with the Historical Descriptions of others concerning them .

I said [ I think it so short a Work to read the few brief Writers of the three first Centuries , as maketh it more a dishonour to be ignorant of them , than any great honour to be acquainted with them . ] Instead of this you feign me to say ( It is no great honour to be acquainted with them . ) But is this true ? Is a Positive and a Comparative Assertion all one ? ] But it seems you are not of my mind : But take it for a greater honour for a Minister to know them , than a dishonour to be ignorant of them : And who vilified them more then you or I ? If I say , that it is a greater dishonour to be ignorant of the Alphabet , of the Grammar , of the Gospel , than honour to be acquainted with them , so as to know what is in them ; and you denied this , who vilified them most ? Have you no greater matters than these to exercise your censorious faculty on : You know in how few months all the Writers of the three first Centuries may be read over . I pray you here leave every one to his liberty of judging : Among you it shall be a greater honour to know them , than a dishonour to be ignorant of them : Among us it shall be a greater dishonour to be ignorant of them , than an honour to know them . Could you endure any to differ from you , this Comprimize might serve : But the next time falsifie not my words . As for your intimation of some that cannot read them , do you not believe your self , that its true of ten Conformists for one Non-conformist : I remember but one Nonconformable Minister in Worcester shire that was not of an University , and I conjecture that he can read the Fathers : But by your speeches , what stranger would not take it to be used by you for their ordinary Character , which you durst not charge on One by name in all the County that is an Ordained Minister when I provoked you ? Doth not this savour of Factious malignity ? As to the prepostecus method of Reading late Writers before the Fa●hers , which you talk of : 1. Papists and Protestants in all Universities have most usually done so , as far as I can hear . 2. Some take both together . 3. I suppose that if one Book be read this Month , and another the next , it is not like to make any great alteration in knowledge which goeth first . 4. Methinks still you cross your own intention , and tell men that those Non-conformists honour the Fathers more than you ; for the most judicious or necessary Authors should be read with greatest judgment , and mature judgment is usually the greatest . If you would have Boys learn the Fathers at School , as they do Tulli's Offices before their larger Catechisms , they would be lost , as Tulli's Offices usually is : And that which they have once read , though without judgment , they would think they need not read again . 5. Do you believe that Lads that never read any Method of Theology or Catechism , could draw a good Catechism or Method out of the Fathers first : suppose them to have begun at ( lem . Romanus , and taken in Dionis . Areop . and Ignatius , yea , and Martialis Apost . at a venture , true or false , and to have ended at the Nicene Council , yea or any where short of Augustine : What a Method think you would they draw up ? Yea if they must go further and read all Chrysostom , with his Enemy Epiphanius , and Augustine with his Hilary , Prosper . and Fulgentius , how would the Lads reconcile their Doctrinal Disagreements , and then draw one Method out of both Parties ? 6. Do you not condemn the Church of England , which did not send men first to the Fathers for a Method , but drew them up Catechism first , and then a Book of Articles , or Confession , and Nowell's Catechism is Authorised by them , and then an Apology , and a Book of Homilies , &c. And commandeth not subscription to the Fathers , but to these : And commanded no Commentary of the Fathers to be kept in the Churches , but Erasmus's Paraphrase . 7. And in good sadness , can you that have read both , believe that the Writings of the Fathers are as methodical , as accurate , as sound , as full , as useful to form a true Body of Theology in the Mind , as the later Writers are ? Can you believe this ? Is there any thing among them to these uses , like Melancthon's Calvin's Inst. Polanus , Ludov. Crocius , Georgius , Sohnius , Amesius , Theses Salmuenses , Synops. Theol. Leidensium , Camero , &c. Or if you had rather like Arminius , Episcopius , Dr. Hammond , especially like Bishop Andrews , Dr. Field , Bishop Davenant , &c. Are the best of their Practical Writings , even Macarius , Ephrem Syrus , &c. Comparable to abundance used now : Whether such Non-conformists as Hildersham , Perkins , Rogers , Burroughs , &c. or such Conformists , as Sibbes , Preston , Gurnal , the Practice of Piety , Hammond , &c. Do you think that the surest and readiest way for Youth to come to understand and believe the Doctrine of the Trinity , of the Godhead of Christ and the Holy Ghost ; of the Hypostatical Union , of the twofold Nature and Will of Christ , &c. is to read first , all the first Writers that say little or nothing of them , and those that say much amiss of some of them ; and then to read all the odious Wars at the Ephesine Council , at the Councils of Arimin . Sermium , and many more . And to read all the contentious Writings hereabout , of Cyril Alexand , Theodoret , Epiphanius , and down to Damascene . Is not one Joshua Placaeus pro deitate Christi , worth all that ever was then wrote ? I confess above all their Subjects , the times engaged them in the largest Defences of the Christian Religion against the Heathens ; In which Euseb. in Praeparat . & Demonstrate . Evang. & Augustine have done well : But so far short of what is done of late by Grotius , du Plessis , Vander Meulin , Camero , yea Savonarola , Vives , and many more ; as that all laid together , I am not for your Method . Take out but Justin , Tertullian , and Cyprian , in the three first Centuries , and Basil Nazianz. Nyssen , Hierom , and Chrysostom , and Augustin after , and I will not tell you what you will leave us . If Origen must be taken in , let them first fight it out to decide it whether he be a Hererick : For Halloix and our Conforming Originists tell us , that Theoph. Alexand. and Epiphanius , ended not the Controversie by the banishment of Chrisostom . 8. And if all the Naevi of the ancient Fathers , were in our modern Divines , which not only Scultetus and other Protestants have gathered , but even Baronius , Sixtus Senensis , Possevine , Bellarmine , &c. What would you call them ? What Hereticks should we be ? Was there ever so great Error charged on any one of the 1800 Ministers for their silencing , as is visible in Dionys. Constitut . & Can. Apostol. Irenaeus , Clem. Alex. Tatianus , Arnebius , Lactantius , &c. But I forgat how much Dalaeus de usu Patr. hath said more on this Subject . If we had to do with Men that could let men live by them , that obey them not , even in the method of their Studies , this much also might compremise this difference . You shall set your Pupils first to read all the Fathers , and make out of them such a Religion as they are able , or perhaps too many : ( But then you must not be their Collector as you teach them ; For 't is as good to take a Method from a Book , as from your Mouth : ) And We will teach Ours first to understand the Catechism , Ursine , Polanus , Amesius , &c. with the Scriptures , and to read the Fathers in order , when they have judgment to know how to use them , and let the issue shew which is the wiser way . But I pray you while you read the Fathers to your Scholars , call them not blew Aprons , nor Tub-Preachers , nor Fanaticks , as out as you find them to have wanted the Languages , or Academical Education , lest it hinder your success .

But I think all this quarrel with the Method of our Studies , is for the Interest of Diocesan Prelacy ; Therefore to save us any more trouble , we will refer all that Controversie to your own Ignatius alone , ( who determineth , That in every Church there is one Altar , and one Bishop , with his Presbyters and Deacons ) and with that we are content . In your Page 6 , to keep your wont ; 1. You feign me to say , that which I tell you is objected to me by others . 2. You falsly feign me to allow the Conformists to have some Hebrew , Chaldee , Syriac , and Arabic , my very mention of which words you out lay hold on , as an Honour granted to your ●●●● : But it is all a false supposition , I never ap●roved hofe words to the Conformists : I only told you , that ( valuing Matter before Words ) I 〈…〉 the Church had men that speak sound Doctrine in an apt and serious manner , for bringing Sinners to repentance in English , than such as can lace an insipid , empty , senceless Discourse , with some shreds of Chaldee , Syriac , or Arabic : and though I could wish that all the Ministers of Christ had all Accomplishments fit even for the adorning of their ●acred Work ; yet I had rather hear a meer English Divine , than an Hebrew or a Syriac Sot . ] You put me to the troublesom repeating of my words , by your falsification . I did not mention Conformists at all , nor had any thought of appropriating these Passages to them any more than others : But only to tell you , that be he Conformist on Non-conformist , if like Augustine , Ambrose , &c. he had sound Divinity without the Languages now mentioned , I could better bear with him , than with one ( whoever ) that had Words for Ostentation without Sense ; and to free you from all suspicion of Injury , I never heard one of the young Conformists which I mention , make any ostentation or credible signification of his skill in any one of those Tongues : Nor do I remember but exceeding few Conformists in England of my acquaintance , that I will accuse or suspect of any such skill : But having a Lad in my house not long ago come from School , who hath some acquaintance in all these Languages , and as many more , who I assure you is too young to be a Conformable Preacher , or Divine , he being next me , suggested the Matter of my Comparison , when you vilified I know not whom ( some unnamed ) Non-conformists , for knowing little more than English Books can teach them . One Pressick a Sadler in Leverpool hath written That against some of your Sect in English , which all their Languages will hardly enable them to Confute : And I hear but few of you that in real knowledge , are much more Angelical than Aquinas , subtle than Scotus , profound than Bradwardine , &c. when yet they and their Scholastick Tribe were commonly very sorry Linguists . But it s needful that I intreat you , that you affirm me not to have called them all Non-conformist● , because I name them in this Comparison .

As for the loads of Dirt that you say I cast , and your saying , that you see ( you should have said feel ) that its difficult to forbear reproach towards them from whom we differ . ] I answer ; 1. And I see that it s no wonder if that Tribe who think themselves persecuted , when they may not persecute and silence others , do also think themselves reproached , when others are justly vindicated from their reproach . 2. But it s hard , that as Transubstantiation must be an Article of some mens Faith ; so we also must be obliged to believe , that all our Senses and Experience are deceived : And that he that walketh in the Frost is a reproach for saying it is cold , because another affirmeth that the Summer is colder , because of now and then a rainy day . Alas , are so many great Chappelries , and many Parish Churches in several parts of the Land , utterly without any Minister at all ; Are so many others so supplied ( yea so many hundreds ) as the Lovers of Souls do groan and weep for ; and must we neither see nor feel it ? But , Sir , if we must not feel it to you , let us feel it to God , that we may feelingly and not formally pray him to send forth more and better Labourers into his Harvest . For my part , I seriously profess , that if the Gospel be but better Preached , and the Souls of all the Parishes in the Three Kingdoms better instructed for their Salvation , without us , than with us , I will never more speak for a Liberty to Preach , much less desire a Farthing of the Maintenance .

But , Sir , if you talk in Print as you do to me in private Letters , you might make strangers of your Mind ; But to the People of the present Age , that see , that hear , that know the Persons , your words will be all vain : You may call them the Children of Hell for not believing you , but men are so naturally sensible , that your Anger will not change them neer London , and in it I think are the worthiest Conformists in the Land ( proportionably ) And yet how many places not far off it , feel what I say . A worthy Learned , judicious , peaceable Divine ( bred up in one of the next Parishes to you awhile ) Mr. John Warren , is silenced at a great Town , Hatfield Broadoak in the Bishop of London's Presentation : Thus he hath long lived and done much good , yet since 1662 that he was silenced , the Place hath been void many years , because the Maintenance is small ; and there must be none at all , rather than such a one as He. But you call this casting Dirt too : The starved Souls must not take on them to feel their Case ; And to be past feeling in such cases , is a state that men are prone to of themselves ; and need no Preachers to help them to be indifferent in . Well! Souls must be starved , or not be humble . [ How can we prefer others before our selves ] unless we will be content that those for whom Christ died be neglected , and Ignorance set up to teach men knowledge , and the Ungodly to teach them Godliness . But as in Natune , so in Grace there is a Principle that will not suffer men by Words to be brought to take Famine for Food , nor saying a dry Lesson , for teaching men the Way to Heaven : Blessed be God that hath possessed all renewed Christians with a new Nature , which differenceth the Chaff from the Wheat , and words from real worth and substance . But you heard a Preacher say , That he thanked God he never heard a Preacher , but he could get something by him . Answer , And I also am of Mr. G. Herbert's mind , Church-porch , p. 15. [ If all want sense , God takes a Text and preacheth Patience . ] But for all that , I will not by my Approbation contract the Guilt of such Preachers , nor of those that set them up , and would have others silenced and calumniated , and then plead Humility for the valuing of these . Every Text that is preached on , is eaifying ; and I hope by bare reading it we may be edified : And in Muscovy where all Preaching is put down for fear of Treason , 1671. and yet now by Treason they are just between Life and Death ) they seem to have great advantage in the using of your Argument , to tell them that would have Preaching , that Humility should teach them to esteem the Readers labour above their own . And truly Basil and Chrysostom's Sermons which they read , are better than the Sermons in very many Churches in this Land , ( which you that honour the Fathers its like will not deny : ) But cheat not your self so as to dream that we are the Assailants , when we meddle not with you but by way of Comparison , when urged to it in our own defence . But because Prejudice , and Factious passages , yellow Jaundices , a Party , &c. are here accused , I could almost find in my heart to send you a Copy of some of the Sermons that I have lately heard ; But you would but pretend that this were some rare unusual thing . O let the World take heed what History they believe ; I have as much ado to perswade you , that many Churches are left in a case which calls for Tears , as I have to perswade Bagshaw and others on the other extream , that any of them have worthy or tolerable men : When yet many hundred thousand Persons have Sense , Reason , and Experience to decide the Case . But these ten years experience , and much more , have taught me , not hastily to believe a Faction , though in a matter where the common sense is Judge : for Faction is one of the greatest Lyars in the world .

But you say [ Just so did Martin Marprelate traduce the regular Clergies . Answer , Just so , is just untruly spoken by you . As well may the Papists say to the Lutherans , Just so did the Heriticks of old : Rather just so did Christ tell some men , That they took away the Key of Knowledge , and would neither enter , nor suffer others . And just so he told them , That if the blind lead the blind , both will fall into the Ditch . One of the last Sermons I heard , was on [ Servants obey your Masters in all things : ] and our own Servants being almost wholly past by , it was applied to shew , That we are Servants to the Bishops , and must obey them in all things : As if subjection without servitude had not been enough . One of the next before it , was to prove , That the Church may appoint Holy-days , because Easter-day ( which is the Lords-day ) is a Holy-day of the Churches appointment : When most of the people had more need to have been taught the Cathechistical Principles , and , what they did when they were Baptized . I can name you the Man ( and Place ) that from the Title of John's Epistle [ To the elect Lady ] proved undeniably that then there were Lord Bishops , because an Elect Lady relateth to an Elect Lord , and there are no Elect Lords , but Elect Lord Bishops . And if such as you are pleased to approve of the silencing of many hundreds , yea of such as Amesius , Cartwright , Greenham , Hildersham , John Rogers , Egerton , Dod , Bradshaw , Rob. Parker , Paget , Hering , &c. ( O what men ) and the setting up of such as These , or Readers in their stead , all is salved by telling us , that we must think others better than our selves , and that we may profit by all . And if God did work by all alike , sense or non-sence , and made as much use of the Ignorant and Ungodly to procure Knowledge and Godliness in the world , I would say as you . I believe with K. James they have an ill Spirit , that recount Grievances to make themselves popular ; ( I suppose Sir Edw. Sands named by you , was one he meant so ill do your Allegations agree ) But I will not therefore consent to their Guilt that make grievances , and then declaim against such Popularity . They please not God and are contrary to all mens forbidding us to Preach to the Gentiles that they might be saved , for Wrath is come upon them to the uttermost , was this Popular declaiming against grievances ? Deny your Children Food and Rayment , and then call them such Popular declaimers .

Again you snatch at your former self-deceiving fiction , [ did these Hebrew Children and Ara bick Lads , come out of your School , they should have been stroaked for Precious Youthes ] Answer , How pleaseing to you is a selfmade Cheat. Realy Sir , I know not one such Lad that is a Conformist , your urgency may possibly provoke me to , send you if it please you , some of our homebred Fruits , to tell you whence I fetcht my comparison . 1. ( when you well mourn for your Alehouses Sots , and yet say , that all our 1800 are not free ) your Confession on one part is constrained , your Accusation on the other side I think is a Calumny . 1. Because no one of all the Non-conformists was cast out for Drunkenness , but many on the other side were cast out uppon Accusation of that sin , seconded by Oathes , ( how just I must not presume to say ) 2. I that know the Non-conformists better than you , know not one Drunkard amongst them all in England . 3. I Challenge you to Name one of all the Ministers I Named to you , or any other in the County of Worcester where you live .

Next , ( Page 7. ) you pretend that I Change my judgement in valuing the Common Prayer and Homilies , ] Answer , all false still , no change at all . I ever valued the Common Prayer and Homilies much before such Preaching as I described to you . And realy I think that the Non conformists much more value the Homilies , than the Conformists do .

Next , I am glad that you disclaim the proving it of any of our Non-conformists in England , that he was silenced for Insufficiency . But was this impertinent to one that intimated such Charges of unlearnedness as you did . But , you say it is of another Nature ( the reason of our silence ) that we do not give security to Authority : that we will Preach up no more Wars , Answer , I summon your Conscience to justify you silencing of so many and such , in the necessity of so many Thousand Souls , one moment after death , upon the Charge now given us on these reasons , 1. I told you , and you could not deny it , that if you leave out your Oath and Subscription to the Bishops and Chancellors , with the Vast Assent , and Consent , few Non-conformists will refuse the renuncation mentioned by you about Wars . Yet still have you that front to ●ay it upon this . The many that took the Oxford Oath upon this , and the more that were ready to take it , if Judge Keeling had not presently and openly declared it to be a renunciation of the National Vow . 2. I again provoke you to prove that there is one Non-conformable Minister of Ten or Twenty , that ever was proved , or can be , to have medled with the War against the King , 3. you read and cite my late Writing , wherein I say ( Page 51. Differ . of the Pow of Mag. and Past . I ascribe all that power to Kings which is given them by any Text of Scripture or acknowledged by any Council General , or Provincial , or by any Publick Authentick Confession of any Christian Church , either Protestant , Greek , or Papist , that ever I yet saw . ) And is all this Insufficient to a Liberty to Preach Christ , to ignorant Souls , must Protestants , Greeks , and Papists , be all silenced for want of Loyalty ? I will subscribe to the utmost , that which any of their Confessions give to Kings , 4. The Non-conformists , ( as far as I am acquainted with them , have still been ready in express terms to promise never to meddle in any War against the King ; Nay to promise to employ their interest , and labour to prvent it . I● this would serve they should not be silenced , Are such as Hooker and Bilson thought worthy of Honour , and are these Principles of ours so much less security against War , as to leave us on that account uncapable to Preach . Let but reason and humility be judge of your Accusation and Cause . And here to shame your self , yet more Marchiaement Need-hams Book , is instanced in . A Man that is no Minister but a Physician : who in those daies Wrote against us Non-conformists , and against my self by Name , when the generality of the now silenced Non-conformists , and ( excluding the Sectaries ) stood , out refusing for the most part the engagement whom the Royalists of my vicinity took it . This Man that Wrote against me , and since the Kings return , hath welcomed him in florid Poems : is instanced in to tell Men what the Nonconformists are , and why they are silenced . Truly Sir I conjecture you are a Stranger to them , ( as abundance of the Prelatists are ) though you lived in England , and have dwelt somewhere where you knew but some Giddy Sectaries , and judge by them of those you knew not . And here ( Page 8. ) I am glad that you deny not , that the worst among us are received , if they do but conforme , which sheweth for what crime we are kept out . And for your exclamation against us that come not in , you would be impatient if I should but describe your dealing , What if you lived under in such a power of Usurpers as would say [ if all the Ministers in Germany Holland &c. will under their hands , or delibrately profess , that no one in the Kingdom is bound by the Oath of Supremacy or Allegiance , and promise that he will never endeavour the reformation of any Corruption in Religion , but will Assent and Consent to every Word in the Interim , and will use Exorcism , &c. they shall have leave to Preach else they shall all be silenced and deprived of all Ministerial Liberty and maintenance . ] And the● Cassander should have told them , that they shu● out themselves if they come not in . I say not that our Case is the same with this . I know it is not But Cassander dealt more Candidly than you do Is there any thing that could be imposed , that would make you a Non-conformist ? If there be , might non any Man talk to you at such rates , even tye your Legs , and intreat you to go : or blindfold you , and say , read who struck you .

§ . 6. What need you more to the present Case , when you say that there is never a Cherubim to hinder them , than this , that though it be no sin in your Opinion , it is a hainous sin in theirs . ? And will your Opinion prove it , where we search as diligently as you do to know the truth : If we be not as good as you , you may allow us to love our selves as well . Tell me what time of any Usurpation had such impositions , which the main Body of the present Conformists then in being , did not conform or submit to , or which they refused to the Cost of all their Church maintenance ( for the liberty of Preaching , too many of them could easily forego it ) I know that many were turned out by others , that would gladly have conformed , if that would but have been accepted . I knew not three Men in the three Counties about me , that would not then have conformed , if that would have kept them in their livings . If there were more unknown to me there or elsewhere , I would but have asked those men , whether it was a sin that was imposed on them : And if so , whether it would have prevailed with them if one had done as you , and told them that they kept out themselves , and that no Cherubin stood in the way , and how hainously they sinned in forsaking their Calling . It seems by your Complaint of the Tryers ( men that I had nothing to do with ) that either you did Conform then ( or would have done , if they had not refused you : ) They say you did Conform . I am sure that most of my Acquaintance that were sequestred , would have Conformed to have kept their Livings : But if we be of another mind now , when Declarations , Subscriptions , Oaths , and Practices are imposed on us ; which — what would you have us to do ? Our manifold Interests obligeth us to judge them lawful if we could : We lose as much by not Conforming , as most of you get by Conforming . Must we judge all lawful , because our Guides do so ? How far will that hold ? Will it hold in Italy , or in France , or in Denmark ; or formerly in Scotland if you had lived there ? He that must take all for good , which another calleth so , must know who it is , that is so far to be trusted on ; especially of those that renounce Infallibility .

2. The Irony was palpable enough to have prevented your Fancy , that I give up the Cause , scil by confessing the Crime that we sought to save Souls , and that we did eat bread . A little will encourage you sometimes to great Conclusions .

§ . 7. P. 9. Here you have many things to say , to prove that men that came into Sequestrations , either sought not , or procured the good of Souls : But O! first remember , that if that were true , yet all those ( or neer all ) were turned out of their Sequestrations before the silencing Bartholomew Day , 1662. 2. Do you think that it had been as consistent with the good of Souls , that they had for sixteen years been all untaught , and left without any Ministers , or Publick Worship , rather than any should have succeeded the ejected . 3. If our Preaching did no good to Souls , why should you think that yours does any ? If you preach the same Gospel , why should you think so well of your own works above other mens ? And if yours also do no good , why do men pay their Tythes , and trouble themselves to hear such as do but trouble the World . 4. Do you not Conspire with the Quakers that falsly cried out that our Ministry did not profit men ; and with the Levellers , that would have taken down the Ministry as unprofitable . 5. But O! what an attempt you make to prove how little History is credible , to teach men to say , How know we that Hegisyppus , that Eusebius , that Socrates , that Epiphanius say true , when such men as should be the Preachers of Truth , can say what they do of common or notorious matters of Fact ; yea and confidently stand to it , to the face of that Age which knoweth that they speak falsly . 1. Who are more competent Judges , whether men received any good by Christs Gospel which we preached you or they . Do you know the Hearts and Lives of many hundred thousands better than they do themselves : I know many are deceived with self-flattery , but are you that are a stranger to their hearts and them , the fittest Judges . Do you better know what Faith , Hope and Love what Repentance and Obedience the Gospel hath produced . To instance among strangers , is the way of darkness or evasion ; I may speak boldliest where I know best . Ask the People of Kederminster , whether in that time they received any good by the Gospel : Know you not , that when some such did but preach to them at the rates you now talk , it so alienated their minds from Prelacy and Conformity , who before were not so averse thereto , as that they have put it past my power to reconcile them so far to them as I am reconciled my self ; and were not my interest very great in them , and their Preacher very honest , I should not get them to come to Church : Such good the Spirit of Envy and Faction doth in the World , while it pretendeth to heal the hurt that others do . 2. Let the effects that are visible be judge ; if places that abounded with Rioting , Drunkenness , Ignorance , and Ungodliness , do now search the Scriptures and meditate with delight in the Law of God , and constantly worship him , and their Families call upon his Name , if they live soberly , righteously , and godly , forsaking the former lusts of their ignorance , and seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness , and live in charity and peace ; will it prove that these People are never the better , because Faction causeth a stranger to tell them so . But you say [ They were not the Souls of every Soil , such as did inhabit poor Villages , but such as dwell in fattest Parsonages , or else in great Towns , where these men who were most for the good of Souls , might act their parts , &c. ] Answer . Farwel the credit of all History , if there be no truer Historians : ( But how shall Posterity know who they are ? ) Is there an English-man that can be ignorant that the endeavour then was that no Church might be unsupplied . There is no talking a far off , was not Mr. Cowper at Moseley Chappel near you , Mr. Rock at Rowley , Mr. Tristram at Clents , Mr. Walderne at Broom , Mr. Baldwin at Chadsley , Mr. Sergeant at Stone , Mr. Baldwin at Wolverley , my Assistant at Mitton Chappel , Mr. Lovel at Alveley , &c. Doth not all the Country about you know , that this which you say is false : And are you then to be believed in difficult moral Cases of Duty or Sin , who deny publick fact which all the Country about you knoweth . Go into any one of these Churches , and tell them that these men were never their Preachers , and try whether you can convert them to believe you . 2. But that the great Towns ( which commonly had least Maintenance ) should be first provided for : That Tribe of Men should not deny , who hold that none but Cities of old had Churches and Bishops , nor should have Bishops to this day . Nor should they teach Enemies to say , These Bishops settled themselves only in the great Cities to act their parts with most popularity . Is that the reason of your remove to Hampton . 3. But what were the parts they had to act ? Their work it self is the best evidence of that . Let the two Printed Agreements of the Worcestershire Ministers , one for Discipline , and one for Catechising and personal instruction , with my Reformed Pastor , be a standing Witness to Posterity , what the Countries Ministers work was , against all factious Calumny : We lived not idle ; not one of a multitude had an hundred pounds a year Maintenance , that I could know of . In my great place ( of Sequestration ) mine was less , when I was elsewhere oft offered above Three hundred pounds ; we preached twice or thrice a week , and rarely meddled with any Controversies , except against the Quakers , and Anabaptists , when they came to trouble the Churches : We spent half two clays a week in Conference with each Family , to Catechize them , and help them to understand the Catechism , and to prepare them for another World . Besides all our Labour of Discipline ; to bring the Scandalous to Repentance , and all the other Offices of our places . In the last Leaf of my [ Uiversal Concord ] the practice of the Church where I lived is recited . This was the Part we acted for our selves . 2. But you add [ What good was done to Souls by these Intruders , late Posterity will find , &c. Answer , 1. I think that the present Age that hath the Experience may better know than Posterity , unless they have truer Historians than you . 2. Many thousand Souls already in Heaven , and many thousand more yet on Earth , that were brought to the true knowledge of God and themselves , by the Labours of such Ministers , will be their Witness what good they did . But the Stranger meddleth not with their Joys . 3. If you impute to them either the Errors or Work of Sectaries , whom they were the principal means of suppressing , and whom they did much more against than you : Or yet the Works of the Rebellious Souldiers , that pulled down Powers , and set up themselves ; you will but shew your malignity and unrighteousness : If you do not , your Accusation signifieth nothing . If you mean that the People will not be brought to like silencing of Prelats better than such Preachers ; and this is the breach which the skilfullest of you cannot heal , I am of your mind : And the Names of Intrusion and Schism will not serve to change their Minds . As for Intrusion , I knew very few such in those days that ever came to a place before they were sought to and intreated ; And I know very few now that are not Seekers . 3. Your next , against Preaching down Authority and Plundering other mens Livings to save Souls , sheweth more what you are , than what they did : When you know that I have provoked you to name one of ten or twenty that ever preached down Authority , or meddled with Arms ; Most coming out of the Universities after the Wars , and many never meddling with them ( though several Conformists did . ) And sure the Party is not to be judged or denominated by a tenth or twentieth part . I named many men to you in the former Paper , and in this : Enquire how few of all those ever meddled with Arms. 2. And those few that did , almost all did it before they came into Sequestrations , and many never did so after ; and thought it had been Authority which they had stood for : And as he that erreth in Medicine upon the judgment of a Colledge of Physicians , so he that erreth in Law upon the judgment of a Parliament , is more pardonable than some other men , and may again be capable of Preaching the Gospel , or else such should not now be readmitted . 3. And , if eating the Bread of Preachers be it you call plundring other mens livings , their Error if it were one , had these excuses , that they thought that the Tythes had been first devoted to God , and that he was the first proprietor , and that they were determinately devoted to him for this use , to maintain a lawful Minister there to officiate : and they thought that when the then Ruling Parliament had cast out some under the Notion of Insufficient and Scandalous , it was lawfull nevertheless for others to keep up a Church , and teaching , and Worship of God , and therefore to Eat the Dedicated Bread . And as for the turning out of any for the Kings Cause , that were not utterly Insufficient or Drunkards , or such like , we Printed our judgment against it ; and many would not succeed such men , which gave advantage to some that were Sectarians to succeed them ? And what got the People by that scruple ? As for the fifth part , you know it was ordinarily paid , ( and now nothing ) and , Mr. Lea's Book made no alteration . Your talk of medling with Temporals , in ordine ad spiritualia , is a meer impertinency . But if you ask Bishops , and Chancellors , whether it be lawfull to meddle with spiritual things , in ordine ad temporalia , ( yea and Priests too ) it will be a seasonable question , ( if set home . ) I am glad to read that they did but threaten to silence you . By which I perceived you were not then so scrupulous as to lose all , to escape Conformity to those times . And I also was threatned to be silenced as well as you : and virtually sequestred by an Ordor against such as would not keep their Fasts , and Thanksgivings , and that spake against their Authority ( which I openly did ) and that would not take the Engagement : and yet I was never silenced by them , ( but only as to one Assize Sermon , ) that work being fitter for Men , whose proper Office it is , and that jure divino . And my life was frequently threatned by the Souldiers , as well as yours . But I must [ tell you truly , should I reassume my Chair , would I continue in this Courteous Mood . ] Ans. You have proved already , that a Question may be false , may you not as easily prove that it may be Malignant , 1. What is my Chair ? Had I any but the Pulpit , or Reading place , at Kederminster , 2. Why do you question my Courtesie , when I both Printed my desires and reasons , against hindring any worthy Men from Preaching the Gospel , upon pretence of the Cause of the King or Prelacy heretofore , and when I have in Three or Four Books this very Year , maintained the same Impartiality and Principles . Yea most of all my Writings and Preaching for 25 Years have been much against Faction : and for the Union , Concord , and Concurrence of all Ministers and Christians , who are agreed but in Christianity it self , and the Essentials of Church Communion , in carrying on Gods Work with mutual forbearance . And when I never had a hand in putting any such men out , and have kept many of your Party in : What room after this for such a Question ? Next you carp at me , for telling you ( in reputation of your Calumnies by a Comparison ) what Ministers were in my time , and in the Places where I lived : You [ marvel at my Praecox ingenium , that could judge before I was ten years old , Who were ignorant , Who learned Preachers : You fear it is still the greatest part of some mens Devotion to censure the Parts and Gifts of the Preacher . ] Answer , O what relief are poor Souls like to have from such uncompassionate Shepherds ! I conjecture you believe me not , I will do what I can to cure you . But remember , I open not my Fathers Nakedness , while I speak nothing but what Congregations saw and heard ; and that to you alone now in secret , and that upon your urgency . I was not bred in Wales nor Ireland , but first in Shropshire . At six and seven years old my first Master was a Reader , never at University , and Preached once a Month : I name him not , because he was as●ied to me , and mended . My next Master Mr. Heyward was a Lay-man , publickly read the Common Prayer , but never Preached , but proved after an honest Lay-man , though no Scholar . My next Master , Mr. Cope , Read and never Preached . My next Master , Mr. Yale , B. D. Preached once a Month , and drank himself , Wife and Children , to be stark Beggars . These at Rowton : And still note that we had no other . I then came to live at Eaton Constantine ; the Vicar of the Parish , Mr. Richard Wolley , never Preached : The Parson of the Town , Sir William Rogers , above fourscore , had two Livings , and never Preached in his life , as was said : When his Eye-sight failed him , he said Common Prayer by Memory ; and John Colly a Day-labourer , one year , and Thomas Gaynam a Taylor , another year read the Scriptures , but none Preached . Having two Places , when he was absent , his Curate was first , his Son Francis Rogers , rarely if ever Preached ; a famous Stage-player : ( One of his Sports was on the open Stage , to let his Pudenda nudata per restem laceratam quasi neglecta se ostentare ad risum populi movendum . His next Curate , my Master John Rogers ( his Grand-child ) was unlearned and never Preached . His next Curate , Richard Bathoe , was a Lawyers Clerk , broken by drinking , who was wont , to our smart , to let us know when he was drunk ; and never Preached there but once , which was in my hearing when he was drunk , as I told you : If he be not lately dead , he is yet a Minister very near you at Patshill . In the same Village another Neighbours Son turned Priest , Mr. Thomas Rock , who being detected to be vicious , and have forged Orders , fled : So much for our Parish ( Leighton . ) The next Eastward , Bildwas , had a Minister that never Preached ; nor could I learn that ever they had before a Preacher since the Reformation . The next to that was Madeley , whose Minister preached not , and was as famous for Debauchery , as the Madmen of Madeley for Folly . On the other side us , the next Church Cressage had no Preaching . The next Kenley , had Mr. Bennet a Reading Curate , that Preached not . Mr. Bent at Harley ; my Kinsman Mr. Wood , B. D. at Cund , seldom : And the same I may say of too many other Places round about us . At Kederminster Mr. Dance Preached ( as some call'd it ) once a Quarter , or Half-year : Mr. Turner at Mitton , sometime ( when sober ) once a day , of whom I told you , that I knew by Examination , his intollerable Ignorance of the Creed . At Dowles our foresaid Sir William Rogers was Parson . In the two Chappels in the Rock Parish ( which I confess had small Maintenance ) one Reading Curate made Ropes for his living , and another cut Faggots . I will add no more ; and this is only private to your self : to excuse my self and the poor people , who you think [ place our Devotion in judging of the Ministers Parts . ] Alas , poor Souls ! Into such hands are you fallen : The Lord be more merciful to you , than such Pastors ; who if for Bread , they give you a Stone , will reproach you as Censurers of your Teachers , if you find fault : And when the first Work needful to save Sinners , is to awaken them to a care of their own Souls , and a love to Teaching ; some men are angry with them , if they will care whether they are taught or untaught . Of all Merchandize , I love not making Merchandize of Souls . But I pray you dream not , that I take all the old Ministry for such as these ? I know there are many excellent men : But I think the present Non-conformists as fit for the Sacred Office as these ; ( Is that presumption ? )

§. 10. p. 10. I thank you for your transitions and purposed brevity : To requite you ; 1. Your first Paragraph doth but say in effect , 1. That you untruly suppose me to meddle with the Controversie , which I do but wish for leave to meddle with . 2. And that you think many things good , which I think to be stark naught . But because you call me so oft to Dispute the main Controversie , I tell you once , that it is disingeniously done , still in Print and Writing to call for more , as if we had never done any thing in it , while our Printed Books lie by you unanswered . Answer my Fifth Dispute of Church Government , 1. In the Point of Prelacy , 2. Of Reordination , 3. Of Impositions ; and then call out for more when you have done : Or if you have more time , Answer Baine's , Diocesanes Tryal , Robert Parker de Polit. Eccles. & Blondel de Episcopis , where Dr. Hammond left at the entrance . One quarter of the Reasons of our Non-conformity , is contained in these Books ; and some are in Ames his fresh Suit , and Nicols and Bradshaw ; but the most are upon a new account , which our Fathers were not put upon .

2. I am ashamed to Read a Preacher , a Writer , an Accuser of the afflicted , to talk of the dreadfull subject of Oaths so poorly as you do . Though I tell you , I will not dispute this Point with you without a License from Authority , I will say , 1. That when you say [ Take an unlawfull Oath in what sense you please , and will there be much need of absolution . ] You should not so confusedly have Named an Unlawfull Oath . Remember that you have proved against me , that a Question may be false . And that an Indefinite in renecessariâ , or thus unlimitedly delivered , goeth for an Universal : an Oath is unlawfull , 1. Quoad actum imponendi , 2. Quoad actum jurandi , 3. Quoad materiam juratam . If the Materia Jurata be Lawfull , do you think that the unlawfulness of the other two , do leave no need of an Absolution ? 1. What if a Thief force me to swear Allegiance to the King , or to swear to do some Duty , doth it not add a Second bond ? Or what if I vowed without the Command of any power ? 2. What if I sinned in making a Vow , or Oath , by taking it from a Usurper ▪ or without just Cause , or unreasonably , or to an ill end , &c. If the Matter be good , doth it not then bind me . And de materiâ , what if one Article or many be bad and another good , doth the Neighbourhood of the bad , disoblige me from the good . If so , it is but inserting some bad Clauses , and men may be bound by no Oaths or Vows , as in the former Case . It is but swearing sinfully , to an ill end , &c. and never be obliged . But if this be your Divinity about Oaths and Perjury , you have no cause to censure them so deeply that swear not as quick and deep as you . Your next Question is , Must the sense of an Oath be measured by him that receiveth it , or ●rom the Authority and Intention of those that im●ose it . Answer , Still worse and worse : what Confusion is here ? Who knoweth whether by ●easuring the sense , you mean as to the taking of the ●ath , or as to the Obligation of it when taken . Your Must seemeth to speak of both . But 1. He ●hat taketh an Oath from one in lawful Authority , ●r from an Equal , is bound to take it in the sense ●f the Imposer or Requirer , whom we would sa●isfie . 2. He that taketh an Oath from a Thief ●r Murtherer , some Casuists say , ( Is bound not ●o lie to hide his sense , but ) may take it in a sense ●ifferent from the Imposers , when the plain words ●ill bear it without a Lie . As if a Thief or Tray●r should force the King to swear that he will do ●his or that , which hath an equivocal Name ; If ●he Traytor 's sense be not according to the Com●oner use , or defaniosiore analega●o , but the King 's , they think that the King is not bound to wear in his sense , though yet he may be bound ●o swear , to save his life . 3. But our Case is only ●e obligatione juramenti praestandi : If a man that ●as bound to take the Oath in a Usurpers sense , ●hall either mistake the Usurpers sense , or shall ●ke it in another sense , as supposing that he is not ●ound to the Usurpers ; I say , that this man if ●e make this A VOW to God , and not only an ●ath to Man , is bound to keep it in the sense he ●ok it in , if it were materially lawful . If I Vow to ●ive so much to a Minister of Christ , and he that ●rced me to it meant a Mass Priest , and I mistook ●im , and meant a true Minister ; I am bound by ●y Vow to give it him . If your confused Question suppose the contrary , then a man's Vows to God are all null , if he that forced him to it were of another sense . A meer Oath to confirm a Contract to a man , is to be interpreted by the Contract , being but an Obligation to perform it ; yea , and may be remitted by the man that will remit his Right . But in a Vow , God and Man are the Parties ; and God's sense imposing , and Man's sense intending in the Vow , are each obliging : So that if ten men use the same words in Vowing , in ten several senses , they are ten several Vows , and all oblige if materially lawful . And therefore when you say , that the Vow was commanded by Usurpers , and when I know not the sense of one that vowed , let him that will say of Millions , that they are not bound , no not when they vow against Schism , and Prophaneness . But you cite here a Non conformist against me , Amesius Case Consc . to you , p. 216. to me p. 203. But 1. He speaketh not at all of our Questions , In what sense an Oath bindeth when taken , but only in what sense it ought to be taken . 2. He speaketh not of a Vow , but of a meer Oath . 3. He speaketh only of the Case of Equivocation ; but he that sweareth in sensu famosiore , to a Thief whose mind he is not bound to follow , doth not equivocate . 4. He himself saith in the next Case that the words of an Oath must be taken , Eo sensu quem audientes concepturos judicamus , id est , regulariter eo sensu quem habent in Communi hominum usu . But the Audientes and the Imposers may be different ; and a man may think sometimes that the Imposers sense may be contrary to the usum communem , and his own agreeable to it . But this impertinent Question is nothing to us : Suppose that the Powers were bound to take it in the Imposers sense , but did not ; the Question is , whether it bind them not in their own sense : ( And in some possible Cases in both , and to both . )

You add [ You mention some good things in the Covenant ; as the Declaration against Popery , Schism , and Prophaneness : But you pass by the second Article , &c. Ans. So I perceive you would have me Conform that I may Preach : And what should I Preach against but Sin ? And will you not give me leave to suppose , that Perjury is one of the greatest of all sins ; and that he that is knowingly for Perjury , is against humane society , and not capable of Trust or Credit , and is against the safety of the King ; which dependeth much on the Conscience of the Oath of Allegiance in his Subjects ; and that he that would but say , I would declare my self for Perjury , that I may preach against all other sins , ●● — . These things being premised , I ask you , Are you in good sadness ? What! after such a confident Perswasive to Conformity ? Will you tell your Hearers , If you Vow to God Repentance , Obedience , or any Good ; this Vow bindeth none of you all , if there were but some Evil joyned with it . ] And so , if a Jesuit would take the Oath of Allegiance or Supremacy , yea or the Vow of Baptism be taken at our Christening , if either Ignorance or Knavery do but joyn some bad things with it ; nothing of all the rest is obligatory . What Cheater then will not foist in some bad thing into his Vows , that he may be disobliged from all the rest ? If you dare preach such Doctrine , and dare die in the Aprobation of it , and dare perswade others to do the like , as their Duty to God ; your Book 's Title , shall make me view S. Paul's warning , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Would you have me deliberately undertake to justifie all men from the lawful or good parts of a Vow , that I may have leave to preach against sin .

You add [ And the Power imposing the whole . ] Answ. Still all alike ; What ? will you tell your Hearers , that no Oath or Vow bindeth them , which powerless man imposed : The want of power in the Imposers , proveth indeed that no Power of theirs obliged you to take it . But what if you had taken it to save your life from a Thief , or within your Closet-walls voluntarily , without the command of any Power , doth it not oblige to lawful matters ? Bishop Sanderson would have taught you otherwise to resolve that Case . This is a hard way to Conformity .

You add , [ What was good in it we were obliged to by a former Covenant . ] Answ. And what then ? Is that another Doctrine , that Conformists must preach , That [ no Vow or Oath obligeth you to any good that you were obliged to before . ] Oh dreadful ! The Jesuits Morals would abhor such a Doctrine : If there may be new Vows to the same thing , there may be new or additional Obligations to the same thing ; else all the following Vows are no Vows . What if the Oath of Allegiance be thrice taken ? Doth it oblige only the first time ? Then if a man be at Baptism obliged to Christianity , no after Vows at the Lords Supper , or other time , are obligatory . Sir , be not angry with me for telling you , that Non-conformists have somewhat in them , that will not permit them to take these for indifferent things : And that the diminution of your glory and mens temptation to separation from you , hath too much occasion and colour from your selves .

You add , [ The worst of Hereticks maintain some Truths . ] Answ. And quid inde ? Suppose , so the Covenant hath some good ? Our question is not , whether we are bound to the bad , but to the good : And will you say , that I must receive no truth which a Heretick holdeth ; or am bound by it to no good , which is contained in a Vow that hath evil with it .

§. 12 , 13 , 14. Will any thing convince you of an Error or Sin , if the visibility of my words and yours , and my reminding you of your visible misreport will not do it ? but still when you see your words and mine , and hear of your mistake ; you will yet go on , yea and falsly add , that [ In one breath I say I did , and I did not retract them . ] This practice , and your fore-going Doctrine well agree : When I had askt you [ Whether it be all one to say I had expunged all that you accuse me of ( or charge me with ) and that I expunged all that you pervert ] ( or falsly took occasion from for a visible slander . ) This is no stop to you , nor worthy of any Answer ; but you go on : Yea when you tell me the Page you meant , and see that there is no such thing there as you mentioned ; yet all this ( nor my many Writings against that same Opinion ) are nothing at all to stop your Calumny . I am not justifying what I expunged ; but if it were faulty , must it needs contain a Doctrine which it never mentioned , which I openly wrote against . This dealing is enough to tell me , to what purpose a Disputation of Conformity with you would prove , when Sense it self will not convince you : And all your justification is , you [ give the sense , though not the words . ] Utterly false ; there are no words there ( how bad soever ) of any such sense . The words speak mostly De fine belli , and not of the Justifying power , which is ever supposed besides a good end . I never thought that War might be made against Authority , for Religion sake , what ever I might then think of the Subjectum in quo of that Authority , though not as Hooker did .

§ . Still Confusion and Untruth twisted : I deny not that I led many ( if you will call Convincing Reason , Leading ) into an Association : was that in the Question before ? I rejoyce and glory in it , and thank God for it , as much as almost any passage of my life ! I told you before , ( and two Printed Agreements told the World ) what our Associations were for . One was to exercise so much Discipline , as all the three Parties were agreed in , contradicting none of them in our Agreement . The other for Catechising and Instructing every Family at stated Days , every Week in course . And what 's this to mens present coming to your Churches which you talk of . If they Conform no more than I , I am not ashamed to be esteemed a Promoter of their Judgment . If they Conform less than I , that they never had that from me , my Five Disputes of Church Government , then written , are a visible Witness against your rash and heedless Calumny .

§ . 16. Be not offended with me , for judging some Conformists honest : And I could wish that you would consider of it , before you teach your People , that [ there are no honest Sinners . ] For that 's all one as to say , that the World hath never had one honest man , but Christ , and Adam and Eve a while . Though a man be not honest quatenus vel in quantum a sinner : ( nor I think quatenus a Conformist ) yet I hope still that there are some honest men in the World ; yea such as have sinned avowedly and deliberately ( when they knew it not to be sin , as most Sects that contradict each other do ) yea and some that sin against knowledge too ( as many do in their vain thoughts and words . ) But where is it that I said , that these honest Conformists sin avowedly , delaberately , and against knowledge ? Make Conscience of Truth . 'T is like that I might sometime say , What it would be in me if I should do it : But is that to say , that it is so in others , whose knowledge I am a stranger-to ; or that it borders on the sin against the Holy Ghost . As for your Invective against these honest Conformists ; I ask you , 1. May not a man be an honest Conformist , that taketh Conformity for a thing lawful meerly in case of Deprivation , as Mr. Sprint did , though he had rather be excused ? If not , few learned godly Divines of my youthful acquaintance were honest men : For all such as pleaded then with me for it , went upon those terms . May not those be honest Conformists that heartily and openly wish for abatements , as the Bishop of Chester doth , and Bishop Gawden openly upon my demand of his Judgment , oft did . May not those be honest Conformists who go on Bishop Reynolds and Dr. Stillingsteet's grounds , That no form of Church-Government is of Divine Institution : Or those that had rather all the Ceremonies were out of the Church , than so many Preachers . If they are , you do ill to censure them as dishonest ; If they are not , I shall never be induced to Conform : for it would be to give away my honesty , if I do it on those aforesaid Principles . Thus I perceive that it is not Conformity that would satisfie you if we yielded to it , unless we also did it on your Principles . But if neither the Bishops and Clergy of England in Abbot's days were any of them honest , saving the few described by Heylin that went higher ; or if all the Latitudinarians ( that had rather the Ceremonies were forborn ) and all the unwilling Conformists in England ( that would not do it but to keep their Ministry ) be dishonest men , I am not yet ready to fall in with that other sort of men that charge so many of their own Society with dishonesty , and that account so few honest , who are accounted honest by the rest of Mankind , and appropriate honesty to those , that others can hardliest discern it in .

§ . 17. And will you so grosly dispute down Non-conformity ? To distinguish between [ meddling with the War ] and entring into the Army ] to you is [ a Fly , ad populum phalerae ficulnea evasio , a little poor Criticism . ] So that it seems you dare affirm or deny that of the one , which you do of the other . Durst you swear that none of the Lords , or Commons , or Citizens meddled with the War , but those that entred into the Army ? And can you insist on such passages thus against your sight , when your Error is detected ? I pray you if ever you be a Confessor , resolve not other mens Cases of Conscience at this rate , as you do your own .

§ . 18. It is an unhappiness in you , that so hardly write that which is not errour , and yet so hardly acknowledge any crrour in your Writing . The Aphorisms recited by the Bishop were mentioned by way of Accusation : You excepted none , but spake generally of those collected by him ; What can I do more for tryal than to name Particulars ? And where should I begin but with the first ? But it 's many more that I can name , which would extort from you the same Answer : Particularly that which Bagshaw ( seeing there ) was tempted to transcribe among his falshoods , as if I had said all that of Oliver , which I said of his Son , which others also have falsly said of me .

§ . 19. It is a troublesom thing to dispute on terms not explained or understood : I thought all this while that Presbyterian and Episcopal had been terms whose sense we had agreed of , but I was mistaken ; for now you let me know , that an Archbishop ( who strove hard for such Preferment ) who drew the rest of the Bishops into that high Protestation , for which some were imprisoned , who forsook the Parliament and went to the Kings Party ; as soon as he saw that they would bring low the Bishops , who for self-safety turned to the Parliament , when he saw all was almost gone on the other side ; and this but in Wales to recover his own house : this man with you was a Presbycerian Archbishop ; I may understand shortly what a Presbyterian signifieth of late in England ! As many Episcopal Non-conformists are silenced , and go now under the Name of Presbyterians : So take heed of straining the word too high , lest Archbishops and Bishops at last be put down as Presbyterians too . If he be a Presbyterin who is an Archbishop , and would continue an Archbishop , because he foresaw that the Bishops would pull down themselves , and the Puritans would prevail . In this sense I should not have denied but that they were Presbyterians that first raised that War in England against the King : But your proof is out of Rushworth , p. 224. viz. No other than those two famous men , Sir John Lamb , and Dr. Sibthorpe importuned the Bishop to prosecute the Puritans ; the Bishop said , He knew of none , and asked what manner of people they be ? It 's answered by Sir John Lamb in Dr. Sibthorp's presence , That they seem to the World to be such as would not Swear , Whore , nor Drink , but yet would Lye , Cheat , and Deceive . That they would frequently hear two Sermons a day , and repeat the same too , and afterwards Pray , and sometimes fast all day long . Then the Bishop asked , Whether those places where those Puritans were ; did lend Money freely ( to the King ) upon the Loan . To which Sir John Lamb and Dr. Sybthorp replyed , That they did generally resolve to lend freely . Then said the Bishop No man of descretion can say , that that place is a place of Puritans : For my part I am not satisfied to give way to Proceedings against them . At which Dr. Sibthorp said , He was troubled to see that the Church was no better regarded . Very good ; A Presbyterian then is a Bishop that is not satisfied to persecute such Puritans as those . Add but what is said by many old Conformists , how the word Puritan was used with the utmost Malice by Papists and Drunkards , and ungodly persons , against those who were firm Protestants , and would not Drink , and Whore as they did ; as Dr. Robert Abhot , Regius Professor in Oxford , and Bishop of Salisbury , and Bishop Downam , ( one that I verily thought had been no Presbyterian ) in his Spittle Sermon , called Abraham's Tryal , Mr. Rob. Bolton frequently , ( who thinks there was never poor persecuted word used with such bitter malice by the mouth of the Serpents Seed , as that word Puritan was at that day of good people . ) I say take in all this , and let Posterity judge of an English Presbyterian by it , that he is one that will not persecute and undo such Puritans : We had divers such Presbyterian Bishops , Usher , Bedle , Downam , Davenant , Hall , &c. And before them Grindal , Abbots , and the most of our Bishops for Queen Elizabeth's Reign . Again , I confess that it was some such Presbyterians as these that raised the Parliaments Army in England .

The two next Sections evincing your Errour and Calumny you pass by .

§ . 22. Is of no further use to us ; only about Dr. Jo. Reignolds , you are a most deceived and deceiving Historian . 1. You do not know , &c. But you might have known that there is extant in Print his Letters to Sir Francis Knowles against Prelacy , for a meer Moderatorship or Presidency . 2. You say , [ Did he not live and die in full Conformity with the Church of England . ] Answ. A known falshood , if a Question may be false : What matter of Fact shall ever come to Posterity by such hands without falsification ? if Cartwright and Reignolds , the leading Non-conformists of England were Conformists ; Sir , I , and hundreds more have offered long to Conform as far to the utmost , as either of these did . And yet we are unworthy to Preach the the Gospel of Christ for want of Conformity ; ( It may be , left it prove them to be Presbyterians that will not prosecute us : ) Learn better whether ever Dr. Reignolds did subscribe to the Liturgy and Ceremonies ; whether ever he took the Oath of Canonical Obedience , or was not against the present Prelacy ? Whether he was for the Cross in Baptism , &c. But you verily think that were he now alive , he would be as hard a Màwl of the Schismaticks , and Non-conformists , &c. Answ. 1. Of the Schismaticks no doubt , for he wrote against both Prelacy and Separation . 2. Wonderful ! What cannot you verily believe , which you are but willing should be true ? That an Archbishop is a Presbyterian , and that the Leading Non-conformist would be a Mawl of the Non-conformists : when 1. Twice as much is now required of Conformists as was then . 2. And Dr. Reignolds was not a man to do what he did without such Reason as would have made him constant . And to requite you with as strong Confidence , Sir , I do not rashly but soberly and deliberately profess , that were they all alive at this day ( the old Religious Conformable Divines themselves ) such as Dr. Io. White , Dr. Willet , Dr. Challoner , Dr. Field , Mr. Whateley , Mr. Crooks , Mr. Robert Bolton , Dr. Preston , Dr. Sibbes , Dr. Stoughton , Dr. Taylor , with a thousand more , and a thousand ; yea these that wrote for the old Conformity , Mr. Sprint , Mr. Paybody , Dr. Jo. Burges , Forbes : yea the old Bishops themselves , Jewell , Sands , Grindall , Abbot , Miles Smith , &c. I do firmly believe without hesitation , that the generality of them would have been resolved Non-conformists at this time , not changing their judgment , but because of the great Change of Conformity : For I know that Cornelius Burges , the Learned Gataker , Dr. Robert Harris , and almost all the late Westminster Assembly , were formerly such kind of Conformists as these were : And I know the same Non-conformists now ( though not many ) would have yielded to the old Conformity . Yea more , I am perswaded that were Rogers , Bradford , Sanders , &c. Yea Bishop Hooper , Bishop Farrar , and Bishop Latimer alive now , they would all choose rather to burn at a Stake again , than to do what is required of us . Say not that I reproach the Laws , for I only speak of the matter of Fact ; whether they or the present Bishops were the wiser , I meddle not . Yea more , yet I much doubt , whether all the Bishops of England now would Conform themselves as Ministers do , if they were put to it ? For I suppose you to know , that they are not put to the Declarations and Subscriptions , as the Ministers were , nor to their Oaths : But in this I am not confident , but only doubt . But of such old Conformists as Bolton , Whateley , &c. I make no doubt at all . 3. But your Proof is , That he received Absolution according to the Church of England . Answer , Is this proving ? So would I do : yea , I do receive the Lords Supper according to the Liturgie . Am I therefore a Conformist ? Doth it follow that he would swear , subscribe , declare , use the Image of the Cross as a symbole of Christianity , &c.

§ . 23. Your intimated Calumny about Popery , it 's well you let fall , though you confess it not .

§ . 24. We come now to the greatest of our Differences , which you call my 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , about a notorious matter of Fact , Whether they were Presbyterians or Episcopal and ●rastians , that first raised the Armies in England against the King : When in the very Age that it was done , such a thing can be so confiuently denied , what Credit is there in some mens History ?

I thought all these set together , had been proof enough . 1. That former Episcopal Parliaments began the Business , and left it where those found it . 2. Heylin himself sheweth fully , that the difference was long working between the two sorts of Episcopal men , about Arminianism , favouring Papists , Innovations , and Propriety . 3. That such as Jewel , Bilson , and Hooker , gives us the Principles on which they did proceed : And Sir Edward Sands that hath written for high Conformity , and was Hooker's Pupill and bosom Friend , was one of the Chief for the People interest in th●se Parliaments . 4. That H●ylin and Rushworth and Fuller acquaint us , That Abbot was laid by for refusing to license Sibthorp's Book ; and how the rest did prosecute Mainwaring . 5. That we knew our selves abundance of the Parliament-men , who were all of their Judgment ; Viz. [ That Moderate Episcopacy was the best Government , and that the Bishops that followed Lawd did by Innovation seek to destroy both Religion and the Subjects Liberty ( as they thought ) and that it was necessary to bring down the Bishop's Power in Temporals , and to get better men that would be confined more to Spiritual Government , and use it better : But that no Episcopacy was so necessary , as that the State should be hazarded to support it . ] This was the Judgment of almost all them that I could hear or know of 6. That even to this day 1671. there are yet about threescore of them alive , besides Lords , from whom the matter may be known . 7. That understanding conscionable Members of the House yet living , openly profess that Presbytery was fearce known among them , and that there was but one known Presbyterian then in that House , which was Mr. Tate of Northamptonshire , an honest man . 8. That when they had raised their Army , in their Propositions sent to the King at Nottingham , they offer the moderating of Episcopacy , and not Presbytery . 9 That the Earl of Fssex General , the Earl of Bedford General of the Horse , the Earl of Peterborough , Sir John Merick , Dolbiere , the Earl of Stamford , the Earl of Huntington , the ( now ) Earl of Denbigh , the Lord S. John , the Lord Roberts , the Lord Mandevile ( late Earl of Manchester ) the ( now ) Lord Hollis , Colonel Essex , Col. Goodwins ; Colonel Grantham , Sir Henry Cholmley ; and so through the rest of the Colonels , were no Presbyterians ; ( though the Lord Say , Lord Brook , and the Lord Wharton were not Episcopal . ) 10. That except these three last named , all the Parliament's Lord-Lieutenants through England that ever I could hear of , were men accounted Episcopal and Conformable ; and these three were not accounted Presbyterians , but honest godly Independents or neither 11. That their Major Generals in the several Parts of the Land were commonly Episcopal and Conformable men ; yea the Earl of Stamford , Sir William Waller , Mr. G. Brown , Mr. G. Massey , Mr. Lawghorn , Ferdinando Lord Fairfax , Mr. G. Pointz , Mr. G. Morgan , Sir Thomas Middleton , Mr. G. Mitton , Sir John Gell , &c. 12. That the Synod at Westminster at first were all Conformists , except about nine or ten , ( As Doctor Hammond telleth them in his Answer to the London Ministers . ) 13. That the Scots themselves ( as may be seen in a late Answer to the Bishop of Dumblanes Accommodation ) do profess , That as England never was Presbyterian , so they never supposed that they should immediately be such , but only put into the Covenant the general words of [ Reforming according to the word of God , and the Example of the best Reformed Churches ] That they might engage them further to enquire what is the Reformation which is most agreeable hereunto ; that so in time they might attain it : So that when the said Bishop ( now Archbishop of Glasgoe ( being known to me ) citeth my own words , and other mens , to prove that the Assembly or Parliament never intended the Renunciation of Episcopacy , but of the English exorbitant Prelacy , the Scots Presbyterians deny it not , but answer as aforesaid . 14. That it is a commonly known thing , that the Covenant came in , not only after the Wars were begun , but when the Parliament was brought so low as to seek to the Scots for aid . And that Presbytery was little known in England , till the Scots brought in the knowledge of it . 15. And it was a notorious thing that the Parliament yielded to Presbytery and to exclude Episcopacy at last , not because they thought that a moderate Episcopacy was not lawful and best , but because they had no way to hold up their Wars , ( without which they thought they had no way to uphold themselves ) but by the help of the Scots and such as were against Episcopacy . And because they had seen the Prelacy fly so high , and now to be so strong against them that they had no hope of moderating it , but fear'd it would bear down all . Insomuch that Mr. Thomas Coleman gave the Covenant to the Lords with this open profession , That it signified not the Renunciation of Episcopacy . 16. And it is a notorious thing , that before the Parliament 1640 , there were not so many Non-conformable Ministers in England , ( Presbyterians , Independents , and Anabaptists altogether ) as there were Counties in the Kingdom . And 17. It is known that few of those few had any hand in raising or promoting the War : Mr. Dod in Northamptonshire , Mr. Ball in Staffordshire , Mr. Langley in Cheshire , poor Mr. Barnet of Uppington , in Shropshire , Mr. Oliver Thomas , and Mr. Wrath in Wales ( that quickly died , as almost all the rest did ) Mr. Augier in Lancashire , Mr. Slater , Mr. Root , and a few more in all England . And 18. It is known , that when necessity had drawn them to please the Scots , and take the Covenant , the Parliament would never be drawn ( though they made Ordinances for it ) to appoint any to settle Presbytery in the Counties in execution of their Ordinances . But purposely delayed , and never did it , except in London , Lancashire , Warwickshire , and a few more places . 19. And it is known , that the Ministers of England themselves were but few of them indeed Presbyterians , and therefore were the backwarder to set up that Discipline : And therefore our Worcestershire Agreement ( to concur in all that the three Parties are agreed in ) did the more easily and generally take ; and that the People themselves were so generally against Presbytery ( except some of the stricter sort ) that they never would submit to it : And so de facto , it was never indeed set up , save in the few places forenamed . 20. Lastly , It is visible , that the Reasons of the Parliament's War published in their Remonstrances and Declarations , do suppose their Consent to Episcopacy , and mention nothing of a change : And that the Lawyers of the House ( as Judge Brown , Selden , Glin , &c. ) were generally Episcopal Erastians , that thought Episcopacy lawful , as being from the Soveraign Power , which they thought might appoint Church Government as he please : ( As Dr. Stillingfleet's Irenic . pleads ; and as the Kings late Acts in Scotland intimate so far , as to determine that all the external Government belongs to the King : And I will not believe , though you should swear it , that the King is a Presbyterian . I did think that these Twenty Evidences set together , would have proved to any sober man , that on both sides it was Episcopal men , and Episcopal Erastians that raised the first War in England .

But all this Evidence notwithstanding , this is to you the strangest Paradox in Historical Transactions that ever saw the light : A serious Confutation of it would have shewed you to be in a delirium , &c. Answ. You have hit on the best Confutation of it in those words that the Cause was capable of : For now ignorant strangers and Posterity may possibly think , that a man would not so confidently deny a notorious thing , without some ground . But what are those grounds ( for it is almost all one , as to dispute whether the English War was between Protestants , or between English-men . ) Why 1. you say , That [ the Spirit of Presbytery and Non-conformity was stirring in those Parliaments , though not known by those Names . ] Answ. Nay , then there is no dealing with you in History . We judge of mens Hearts by their Professions and direct practice , and take him for conformable , that saith he is so , and actually conformeth . But you see deeper into the Spirit : So you may say that it was the Spirit of Socinianism that workt in the Arminians , as others say , it was the Spirit of Popery that workt in A. Bishop Laud and his Party ; and others say , that it is the Spirit of Democracy that worketh in popular Princes , and the Spirit of Rebellion that workt in Hooker , and the Spirit of Independency that worketh in the Presbyterians , and the Spirit of Anabaptism that worketh in the Independents ; and so Bagshaw and his Brethren say , it is the Spirit of Conformity that worketh in us . And so whatever Errour a man runs not as far from , as frightned , or furious Adversaries do , he must be said to have the Spirit of that Error . As if a Pythagorean should tell you that you have the Spirit of Ajax , Thraso , or of some Brute . Sir , we plain people have hitherto taken a Presbyterian to be one that holdeth [ That the Church is and ought to be governed by Sessions , Classes , and Synods , the lesser subordinate to the greater , to which there lieth an Appeal , and these composed of Pastors in parity and ruling Elders conjunct , and that not for meer Concord , but direct Regiment . ] These are Presbyterians in the sense of Beza and Saravia , Downam , and Gors . Bucer , Bilson , Hooker , and all that have written on it : Whom though I differ from , I take to be commonly the most sober , religious , strict , and understanding sort of Christians , ( together with the New England moderate Independents ) that I know , who make up a party in the world . And I take my self to be under a rational disparagement to differ from them so far as I do , though for truth 〈…〉 will bear that disparagement . But now forsooth , we have ●●●● professing Episcopacy and Conformity in Parliements , that have the Spirit of Presbytery : And it was Archiepiscopal and Episcopal Presbyt●●ians that began the War . Just as among the Pa●●sts , the poor Jansenists , yea the persecuting ●●●● , are said to have the Spirit of the Ca●vinist● , Ergo , they are Calvinists , deny it who dare .

2. You prove it fully , by saving , Did you never hear that when these Parliaments we●e in their full Cry against the Duke of Buckinghum ; they secretly moved him to make Dr. Breston Archbishop , and then all Complaints should be hushed ] Answ. What still untruths ? 1. Produce your credible proof if you are able . 2. Could a Parliament which doth all things by the major Vote transact such a Business secretly . Could it have been proved , would not the Duke of Buckingham have alledged it against his Adversaries ? 3. Would Heylin himself have silenced such a thing , and emplyed the contrary if it had been true .

4. Would Mr. Thomas Ball that Florid full Historian , in the Life of his Tutor Dr. Preston , have omitted it , when he advanced his Reputation as high in outward respects as possible .

5. But what if all this had been true ? Oportuit fuisse memorem ? Truth shameth the cunningest and most confident Adversaries , Doctor Preston was conformable . And is it a proof that the Parliament had the Spirit of Presbytery , if they would have had a Conformist made Archbishop . Thus we have still your first description of Presbyterians , viz. Such Conformists as would be Archbishops , and such Parliaments as would have Archbishops . We call Archbishops , Bishops , and so Episcopal ; and you call them Presbyterians : And are we not there like to agree well of the Thing , that are not agreed of the Name .

6. But he that knoweth that Abbot was then Archbishop of C. will hardly believe you , that the Parliament would have had Dr. Preston put in , ( though it be nothing to the purpose . )

What you say of the Infection from Geneva , hath this sense : [ Geneva infected the English Fugitives with Presbyterianism ; Ergo the Parliament 1642 , were Presbyterians . ] We deny the Consequence . For , 1. They infected not all England . 2. Nor those individual persons . 3. They that were infected were non-conformable Ministers , who were after silenced or trodden down by the Bishops , and had not any Votes in Parliaments .

Next when I tell you , That Parliament , Militia , Army , Major Generals , &c. were no Presbyterians : You answer me , That you meddle not with Lay-men . Answ. And what need we more , were not the Parliament Lay-men ? And was it not the Parliament that raised the Militia and the Armies , and that gave Commissions to Major Generals &c. And was it not the Lay-men that were the Commanders and Souldiers that fought against the Armies of the King . And yet all this was an Historical Paradox to you . But you say , The dissenting Brethren were most guilty in blowing the Trumpet . Answ. 1. Suppose that were true ; all that you can say were but this , That one Episcopal Party raised a War against the King , and the other Party , because some Non-conformists blew the Trumpet , or perswaded them . But if Episcopal men are so unstable and simple to be drawn into such a War by a few Non-conformists , why do you not acknowledge it ? But you question whether there were ●hen so few Presbyterians in England , because a thousand subscribed a Petition in King Jame 's time . Answ. This is to write History by conjecture against notorious matter of fact . I named you the men ; I can name you those in the Assembly of Divines , Mr. Nie , Mr. Goodwin , Mr. Simpson , Mr. Bridge , Mr. Boroughs , Mr. Philips , Mr. Greenhill , and Mr. Caryl ( after ) all Independents , and Mr. Ash a Presbyterian . Name me many more English Non-conformists if you can : And name me as many more in the Land then I have named , if you can ! But a thousand subscribed the Petition . Bancroft , and your other such Conformists tell you , that it was not so , and that most of them Conformed then or soon after : You can believe such men when it serveth your turn . The truth is , many Conformed , and the rest were dead and gone . Do you think there were many Non-conformists alive in 1642 , who subscribed that Petition when King James came in . If Mr. Dod were , I suppose not many more . But did they not increase and multiply ? Answ. Excellent History ! Did not we live in the Country with them ? Should we not have known them ? Name them as I do . They were all consumed to the number that I mention , except some that went into New England ; And of these named , divers came back out of Holland . Death and Conformity had almost made an end of them , when they wonderfully revived from among your selves : Know you not , that this is the grand hope of your present Generation from old Experience , that Non conformity will be but res unius aetatis . ( But Reason , Conscience , Scripture , Duty , and Sin will for all that be still the same . )

As to your doubt , whether England infected not Scotland ? Heylin in his Life of Land will tell you plainly . They might at last encourage them , but it was not for Presbytery , but for that which they called Propriety , Liberty , and Safety from Popery . These were the frights of the Episcopal great men of those times : But as for any Ministers to infect Scotland hence with Presbytery , when it there prevailed , and here were next to none at all , it is a ridiculous fancy . But now you pretend to speak sence , and tell me , That one of the Propositions sent to the King after Edge-Hill , was to abolish Archbishops , Bishops , &c. Ans. Unhappy still ! 1. But how long since after Edge-Hill Fight ? Was it not long after , at the Treaty of Uxbridge that you mean ? And was that before the raising of the Army ? 2. Was not the Proposals at Nottingham sent by the Earl of Essex , a little before the raising of the Army ? A surer Proof against you that then they were not for Presbytery , but restrained Episcopacy . 3. Even at Uxbridge Treaty , many thought that another frame of Moderate Episcopacy would not be well set up , till the present Frame was taken down . 4. And even then they said nothing that I know of for Presbytery . 5. But the truth is , they saw by that time , that they could not stand but by the help of those that were against the Bishops , the Scots , the Independents , and the unwilling Conformists that desired a Deliverance . But this proveth not that the Parliament was Presbyterians then , much less that they were so before the Wars : But you that meddle not with Lay-men , remember that Lay-men sent those Propasitions .

You next tell me of Alderman Pennington , and the Apprentices . Answ. 1. Few of those Apprentices knew what Presbytery was , but were exasperated against Episcopacy for the sake of the present Bishops ; as the common people be now within these nine years , thinking that it 's they that silence their Teachers , and cause all our Divisions . But alas little knew they what Church-Government to desire . But most that were in judgment against Episcopacy , were Independents and Separatists then . And how inconsiderable a number in London were those Apprentices . 2. And our Question is not , what Party of Lads , or Apprentices , or Women did clamour against Bishops , ? But what Party it was that raised the War ? Did these Lads give the Earl of Essex his Commission ? But you find none that said any thing against their Petition , but the Lord Digby . Answ. And hath not he forsaken you also ? 1. Where did you seek to find it ? Not in the Parliament Journal sure , else you might have found more . 2. The truth is , the Episcopal Parliament themselves perceiving what Party they must trust to , opposed not those Petitions , because the Petitioners might serve their turns , and I doubt were too well contented with them . But as no man must say , that the King had the Spirit of Popery , because he was willing that the Papists should help him : So no man can prove that the Episcopal Parliament had the Spirit of Presbytery , or were against Episcopacy it self , because they were willing to be helped by all sorts , who on a sudden were fallen out with Bishops . The truth is , the suspending and silencing of Ministers , and the cropping the Ears , and stigmatizing Prin with Burton and Bastwick , had suddenly raised in the London Apprentices and others , a great distate of the Bishops , though they knew little of any Controversies about Church-Government at all . When you say , that [ Episcopacy ( or rather Bishops Lands ) was the Palladium , &c. ] 1. Episcopacy was not so till after the Army was raised : It was so , no doubt , in the private designs of some particular men , Apprentices and Women , in the City and Kingdom ; that is , all that were against it desired it should fall : And many that were Episcopal desired that it should rather fall , than the Abuses of it continue by such men as they thought would else ruine Church and State , thinking that there was no other way to save them : ( so far did different apprehensions about Propriety , Liberty , Popery , and Arminianism , carry men from one another , who were all for Episcopacy . ) But forget not 1. That it is the major Vote of the Parliament , and not a few secret designers within or without doors , that is the Parliament . 2. That it was the Parliament that raised the Militia and Armies . 3. That this Parliament was not at that time against Episcopacy ; ( Therefore your talk of the Isle of Wight so long after , is liker a Jest than serious . Besides that you seem ignorant of , the Parliament resolved to accept of the Kings Concessions , ( as Prins long Printed Speech will shew you ) and therefore immediately before they should have voted that closure were pulled out by Cromwell , ( who had secret intelligence what they were going to do . ) 2. And your oblivion caused you by your Parenthesis to contradict what you have hitherto said your self : For if it were Bishops Lands rather than Bishops that they would have down , it implyeth that they were not Presbyterians , nor against Episcopacy . Would you make an English-man of this age believe , that none of your own Church have an appetite to Bishops Lands ? Try them , and they will confute you more effectually than I can . Do you think that of the Multitude that now drink and ●rant , and roar , and whore , and rob , there are none whose Consciences could be content that Bishops fell , that they might have their Lands ? you will say perhaps , these are not truly for Episcopacy . Ridiculous ! Must we write Histories out of mens secret thoughts and hearts , and call men only what they are conscientiously and in sincerity ? Who knoweth another mans sincerity but God ? Come into London , or go among these Gallants , and tell them that they are not Sons of the Church if you dare . Hearken whether they talk not more for Bishops , than for any other Sect ? Whether they do not curse and damn the Presbyterians and Fanaticks , and their Conventicles , and deride their Preaching and praying , and say as bad of them as you can wish them ? Though I know that too great abundance since our silencing are fallen off from you to Infidelity or Atheism , and to make a Jest of the Sacred Scriptures ; and the Papists say , that very many thousands are turned to them : yet I speak of those that still call themselves Protestants of the Church of England . Really if you will take none to be of your Church that would sell the Bishops Lands , or none that are not conscientiously for you ; I doubt your Church yet will prove invisible , and as little as some of the housed Sects . And if that will serve your turn , I pray deal equally , and let the Sectaries also have leave to say of any of their Party that killed the King , or were guilty of Treason , he was not truly one of us . The War was first called Bellum Episcopale by the Parliament-men , because they thought or said that Land and his Adherents were the Causes of it , by seeking to reduce the Scots to their will , and to set up Altars and other Innovations in England . But not because the Parliament at that time renounced Episcopacy it self .

As to the particular Members of the Armies , I confess I did know them better than you ; I speak not of Fairfax or Cromwell's Army , but of Essex's : And it s well that you have so much modesty , as not to deny that they were Episcopal or no Presbyterians . But you venture to say of those yet living , [ That they were so whilst they assisted in the support of the late Cause , I have not so far renounced my Reason and Experience as to fall in with your account . And if we persevere in this new Doctrine , we shall be as distant as the two Poles . ] Answ. Now you are at your Strength , your Confidence , and Resolution to believe ( or say you believe ) as you do , is all the life of your Cause . It is now taken for no dishonour to the greatest Lords , to say , that they are for Episcopacy . There are yet living the Earl of Bedford , the Earl of Denbeigh , the Earl of Stamford , the Lord Grey of Warke , the Lord Hollis , the Lord Asthey , the Lord Roberts , the Earl of Anglesey ( though he be no Souldier ) Major General Morgan , Mr. G. Massey , Sir John Gell , and many more . Enquire of themselves , or any that know them , whether they were ever Presbyterians , or against a moderate Episcopacy . Sir William Waller was most called a Presbyterian ( in your sense ) who died lately , and hath told me ( being my very dear Friend ) his own Judgment and the Parliament's , as I now tell it you . I have in the heat of the Wars heard Sir Thomas Middleton , Major General Mitton , and many others thus give their Judgment : Yea , these were for the Liturgy and full Conformity ; and some of them for Dr. Hammond's highest strain of Episcopacy . But it s sufficient to your Cause , that though the men who are yet living , are the best Witnesses of their own minds , yet you are resolved not to believe either them or me . But let me remember you of one wide-mou●hed Witness more , which will almost swallow up your credit : When Cromwell and his Army , and their secret Adherents in the Parliament , cast out the eleven Members of Parliament first , and Conquered the City , and pull'd down all the Committees , and disbanded all the other Forces of Massey's Army , and all the Garrison and County Forces : ) Yea before that , when they layd by Essex and his old Officers and Army , and abundance of the Parliament-men that had Command in Garrisons , Armies , &c. by the self-denying Vote ( as it was called . ) All this was done upon Insinuations , that they were not men to be trusted , being even then at the heart for the most part Episcopal . And if yet you are incredulous , and as distant as the other Pole , I will now but intreat you to fetch one Argument from the North , to draw you from your North-Pole distance ; and tell your self whether Major General Monk ( and Morgan ) and his Army which brought in the King , and set up the Bishops again , was Episcopal or Presbyterian ? And yet their long abode in Scotland made that Army accounted to be more Presbyterian than any Army that was in England . But as King Charles saith in his Letter to Mr. Henderson , No man can so hardly understand as he that would not know . That the War is so odious now as that neither side will own it , is no wonder , when they have learned by so much Experience : I would it had been so from the beginning .

§ . 28. I must allow you to ease your Fancy with the name of [ Singularities , strange Imaginations , the body of a dead man , &c. ] for want of bettet stuff . But it s more strange to me , that the Contention between Arminian and Calvinian , Prelats and Prelatists , should be talked of as so incredible ; when your Goliah , Peter Heylin hath made it so much of the substance of his History of the Life of A. B. Laud. In what you say more of Williams , you still confute your self : For what say you , but that selfish carnal Motives did make an A. B. fight against the King . But was he therefore no Prelatist , and yet an Archprelate ; or was he therefore a Presbyterian A. B. I again advise you not to cast all out of your Church that are ruled by selfishness and worldly interest , least you leave so few as will take away the glory of your Magnitude , and leave the Sectaries to vie with you for the majority . And I will intreat you but to mark throughout the foresaid History of A. B. Laud , how grosly and uglily your foresaid Champion describeth Laud and the chief of his Party , as if Preferment and Rising were there very scope , and the contriving and seeking it by all Friends and means , were their very Trade of life and business in this world : So that to a truly heavenly mortified Christian , it must needs seem as loathsom a Character , as Christ giveth the rich man , Luke 16. 12. if not much more : For he writeth Pride , Ambition , worldliness , seeking to be greatest ; as it were the very Inscription of the Picture which he draweth : ( As his own Letters in the Caball say the same of Williams . ) And will you make that to be a mark of No-prelate , which your Champion maketh their notorious Character . Read him impartially , and judge .

As for Arrius , I had no acquaintance with him , nor have I any business with him : But if all my foresaid twenty Evidences fail me , and I cannot know what a Parliament was ? what a Synod was ? what an Army was ? when I was acquainted familiarly with so many of them all ? How should I know whether or no that Epiphanius spake truly of the secret heart of Arrius who so openly , falsly , and furiously abused and persecuted his Superiour Chrysostom . You shall believe what you will , and I will believe what I can . But few men have ventured to cast such a slur upon S. Hierom as you do , saying , That [ Jerom himself was not a jot the better for it , even for missing of a Bishoprick : ] Medina himself hath not done him so much wrong . What Bishoprick was it that he sought and missed of , and when ? Though he joyned with Chrysostom's Adversaries , I find not that he sought his Place or any other Bishops , though he sowrly over-top Augustine in confidence of arguing ; I find not that he sought to be above him in place . It 's well that you are not out of hope of Preferment your self , lest you should turn Presbyterian : for ( pardon on my smarting sharpness of speech to you ( as you account it ) while I tell you that ) I take you not for a better man than S. Jerom ; and therefore think that want of Preferment would do more with you , than it did with him . But this is the ordinary judgment of Worldlings , who measure other men by themselves . When I am dead , and cannot answer for my self , I doubt not but the same will be said of me , though you were now forced to recede from that Censure . But above all Impudencies , I must magnifie theirs that charge this on the Presbyterians as such , whose denominating opinion lieth in resisting all Honours , Preferments , Precedencies , great riches , &c. in the Ministry , save what meer Worth or Age procureth ; and yet they are said to be discontent because they cannot be Bishops , when their Doctrine is against them . The Dog that is busie about his Carrion , snarleth at every one that passeth by , as jealous that he would bereave him of his Feast .

§. 29. 31. When the Question is , As whether the Parliament of England be English-men , or French-men ? I will take your return of [ round , square , and forked Atomes ] for a very moving Answer , considering the Cause and Person . But when I alledge your perversest Champion Heylin only ad hominem , I will not believe that your Allegation of his Lies against Presbyterians is any more argumentum ad hominem to us , than if you alledged the authority of Manesseh Ben Israel , till you have proved , ( for what cannot you do that you have a mind to do ) that Pet. Heylin ( as well as the Archbishop of York ) was a Presbyterian . I thank you for your silence to §. 32.

§ . 33. When our Question was of the Causers of the late War , and we came to recite the Principles of the Leaders of the Prelatical party , what should I do more than name the men and their Books . When the Bishop silenced me , and forbid me to Preach in his Diocess , he commended for my Cure the reading of Bilson and Hooker , and named no others . I now recited the words of Bilson and Hooker , the first as asserting the Principles of the Parliament ; the second as going quite beyond them on the Principles of them that pull'd down the Parliament , I cited page and words at large . To all this I have nothing but that you will cover your Fathers nakedness , and not own all that they say : But doth not this yield that this was their doctrine ? What need you disown or cover it , if it were not so ? Yet nothing will make some men confess . But still Mr. Hooker you admire , and so did Camden , Usher , Morton , Hales , Gawden , King James , King Charles . ] I dare not joyn my self to so great Names as one of his Admirers , lest I seem too much to value my self . I will come far behind them , supposing that a long tedious Discourse in him hath as much substance , as one might put into a Syllogism of six Lines . I said , but that [ it was theirs and such Prelatist's Principles that led me into what I did and wrote . ] His Principles might do it , and not he , as they were managed by other men . But these are Niceties to men that heed not what they read or say . What is written Line 1. p. 24. §. 10. you seem to defend : and 1. you say [ What is this more , than some that writ for the Kings Cause in the late Wars professed ? ] Answ. And will you defend or own all that then was confessed by them ? Have you read the Kings Answer to the 19 Propositions ? Do you know that the Parliaments Adherents drew up a Catechism out of that Answer , as pretending to justifie all their Cause by it ? Know you not that in Fountains Letter answered by Dr. Steward ; and in Sir Francis Nethersole's Writings for the King , and many others , those things are supposed or asserted , which I would not counsel you now to assert . Your Instance is , [ That as to making of Laws , our Kings have not challenged a Power without Parliaments . ] Answer , God be thanked , but that 's none of our Question : But what you will not know , you cannot understand . Seeing you seem to justifie Hooker here , who saith , That Laws they are not , which publick Approbation hath not made so : ( Which I believe of those Countries where such publick Senates have part in the Legislation . ) By this you must say , that in the Turks Dominions , or any the like , there are no Laws . But if you say , that the Original Grant of the Legislative Power to one is equivalent to an Approbation of his Laws : I maintain that Hooker's Principle is false , [ That by the natural Law whereto God hath made all subject , the natural power of making Laws to command whole publick Societies of men belongeth , so properly to the same entire Societies , that for any Prince or Potentate of what kindsoever upon earth , to exercise the same himself , and not either by express Commission immediately and personally received from God , or else by Authority derived at first from their Consent , upon whose persons they impose Laws , it is no better than meer Tyranny . How hard a task then do you put Kings upon to excuse themselves from Tyranny , when ever such Prelatists will accuse them of it . For 1. I hope you will not put them to prove [ That they have their Power by an express Commission immediately and personally from God ] ( as Saul and David had ) Shall we obey none but those that fanatically can pretend to a Revelation , or immediate personal Commission from Heaven . And 2. prove if you can , that the People have Regal power to use or to give . I grant that originally their Consent may be necessary to the designation of the Person or Family that shall receive it from God : But it is God that giveth the power , though the people choose the Person or Family ; no man giveth that which he hath not : The People have not legal or governing Power , Ergo , they cannot give it . The Wife chooseth her Husband , but Gods Institution giveth him his power . If that it be certain ( as Doctor Hammond hath proved against John Goodwin ) that the Peoples consent doth give no power , but onely let in the person that shall receive it from God , and not from them ; how dare you thus conclude all Kings on earth to be but Tyrants , as Hooker plainly doth : For no King on Earth hath [ an immediate personal Commission from Heaven ] And no King ( that I know of ) can receive power from the People that never had it to give : Ergo , you make all Kings to be no Kings but Tyrants ; but falsly . Will you defend this because Hooker wrote it ? Were not these the Levellers and Democratists Principles , higher than the old Parliament owned ? Must a Clergy of such Principles put men upon banishing the Non-conformists five Miles from a Corporation , as men of seditious Principles . — Terras astraea reliquit . You tell me , I take what is for my purpose , and leave out the rest . Ans. Semper idem . Do I mai many Sentence ? Do I pervert any ? Is the rest contradictory to this ? What in the great Hooker ? No , not at all . I suppose the rest . Unrighteous man ! If you require me to write out all his Book , when ever I transcribe a part ? I own that which you transcribe ? What would you have more . But next you say , that I have found other Doctrine in Hookers other Books . Answ. A silly pretence , of which anon . You ask [ Was you led aside by Hooker , &c. yet you quote passages out of the 8th Book , that came out since . Ans. A man that would turn us to Conformity , must be able himself to heed what he readeth ; 1. I said , not that Hooker , but such Principles led me . 2. I never said , that I was led by every word that I now cite , but that these words contain the Principles which missed me ( that is , so far and so long as I followed those Principles . ) Do you not see that your heedlesness tempted you to this Error ; and yet your [ Ex post liminio ] and [ first building the Roof ] seemed sence to you , or you would have them seem such at least to me .

But it 's well that you disown these three Book of Hookers also . But 1. is not this forecited in the first , the very sum of all that you are afraid of 2. Will you so give away the sixth and seventh which say far more for Episcopacy than all the rest 3. Will you thus reproach all Bishop Gauden's triumphant Vindication and Dedication to the King ? 4. Did he not tell you that the Copy was interlined with Hookers own hand , as approving it ? What would you have more ? 5. I again tell you , I can bring you proof of a Concordant Copy , ( the Scribes Errates excepted ) . 6. Mr. Walton could not deny it . 7. Dr. Bernard cited by you confirmeth it . For to say , that a Sentence or two were left , doth intimate that the Book was his ; and leaving out , is not putting in : And I cited nothing that was left out , nor any thing in it that is maimed for want of it . 8. Any man may see that the 8th Book was imperfect , and that is proved by the matter , manner , and end : But it was nevertheless Hooker's , and concordant in style and matter with the first . And have you now vindicated the Doctrine of the chief Prelatists any better than by disowning them ? And do you take it as incredible , that many Episcopal men in Parliament should think as Bilson and Hooker thought , and as the great Speakers , Sir Dudley Digs , Cook , Philips , Eliot , and many such in former Parliaments did seem to think .

§ . 35. Did you write against their Discipline with such ugly Insinuations of Treason , before you knew what their Discipline was , and then think you are excused by saying , It must not be touched . 2. Did you not know till now , that the Nonconformists are not in all things of one mind ? They never pretended to it : How many men are so , whose Faith is their own ? Are you after so many years to learn , that some that Conform not are Episcopal , some Presbyterians , some Independents , and some as we of Worcestershire ( and I think most of England ) addicted to no Party ; but thinking that each of the three ( and the Erastians too ) have somewhat in which they excel the rest , and somewhat in which they erre more than the rest . This is our judgment : And will not old printed Writings make you know it , before you first write against it , and then wonder at it , and make a stir about that which you know not , when i't s told you . You next think that by proving that they flie their Habitation , and refuse the Oath , you sufficiciently prove — that the Chorus sticks at renouncing War against the King . Because it is a serious business ; I must profess that you here so cross the common Principles of Reason , Humanity , or Christianity , that you do not at all tempt me to Conform : When you know ( if you are reasonable ) that if they should take all the Oath except the last Clause , they are nevertheless to be confined from Corporations ? When you know ( if you are reasonable ) that a man may judge the first part , or one part lawful , that thinketh otherwise of the last , and so that he must remove his Habitation ! To conclude , yet that the flying of their Habitations , and not taking the Oath is a proof that they are against the whole , or against that Clause that renounceth Arms against the King ; and to take this for a Demonstration , as going is , that there is motion ; I tell you again , this reasoning beseemeth not a Divine , or a man . Doth it not imply , that you will take an Oath your self , if you judge but one part of it lawful ? And yet before , that Vo●doth bind no man to the lawful parts which you said had in it some parts unlawful . Thus Errors agree amongst themselves .

You open your self yet more ; you say , [ This makes me nauseate your Principles as much as the former , viz. Not swearing , not to endeavour an alteration in the Government of the Church . ] Answ. And indeed , do you loath as much the altering of your Church Government as the Kings , and yet be loyal ? Is it as loathsom to turn Diocesance into the old Episcopacy , or to set up Bishop Usher's Model , which we offered , yea or to take down Lay Chancellor's power of the Keys , as to take down Kings . Yet this tempts me not unto Conformity . Yet do you not stick to say next [ Yes , by Petition , as becomes Subjects ( viz. ) we may endeavour alteration . ] Answ. What a saying and unsaying is this ? And what a jumble of swearing and unswearing would you have us make ? Will men awake believe that Petitioning is no Endeavouring ? Will you preach this Doctrine to your Flock ? You may lawfully swear that you will not any time endeavour an alteration of the Scripture , of the Ministry , of the Universities , of Religion , of Monarchy , and yet may endeavour it by Petitioning , that Oath notwithstanding . ] May a man swear universally , and mean particularly . May he swear that he will not at any time murder his Child , and mean [ except by famishing him . ] May he swear that he will never endeavour to defame you , or take away your Life or Lands , and yet may Petition the King or Parliament to take them away ? swear with you at these rates that will for me . But by this it appeareth that quoad sensum you are of the Nonconformists mind , though not as to the method of swearing : For if they could but stretch their Consciences to put your sense upon that Clause of the Oath , they would take it : And yet do you nauseate their Principles and Discipline , because they cannot interpret it as you , who would take it were it so interpreted ? See then by how small a matter ( even the meer exposition of the words . ) Satan can tempt some men to nauseate the Discipline and Principles of others that fear an Oath . But you think [ in our Places and Callings ] is , that Ministers must preach them down , and Souldiers fight them down . Ans. 1. But is not Petitioning confest by you to be agreeable to the Place and Calling of a Subject , and therefore allowable . And so you build up what you would pull down . 2. Either it belongeth to the place and calling of a Minister to preach for Church Reformation in the said Alteration , or not . If it be , dare you oppose it ? If it be not , this Clause restraineth it . 3. If the King ( who can give Souldiers Authority ) should commission Souldiers to pull down Lay Chancellors , or alter Prelacy , and make a Bishop in every Market Town or Parish , would you teach the Souldiers to disobey and any to resist him ? What! and yet in the Oath swear that it is not lawful to resist any Commissioned by him ? But a Souldier that is not authorized to do it , doth it not in his place and calling . Your talk of changing Discipline with Rebellion by instances from practices , is but a proceeding in bold Calumniation , when you say nothing to the Vindications which Dr. Pet. Moulin Bishop Bilson , King James , and others have given it . And to name no Instance but that of Prague , is so bad , that I will not name its quality . Do you know what Discipline they were of at Prague ? I suppose you know that the Bohemian Waldenses were Episcopal , as Commenius and Lascitius Treatises will shew you under the name of Seniors and Conseniors . And the Palatine Discipline was mostly Erastian by Magistrates , even long before Erastus pleaded for it against Beza , even as was and is the Discipline of the Helvetians . And hath the Image of both Churches , or some such Papist put this into your head , to nauseate Magistrates , Church-Government , for the sake of them of Prague , that raised a Tumult against the Magistrate ( on what cause I leave to just Historians . ) When you ask me what I think of those disciplinarian Principles . I answer , I think who ever used them they are false , and I think him a shameless Calumniator that will charge them on us that Conform not , without one syllable or shew of proof : Do you mean [ Bancroft and Heylin charge them on some called Disciplinarians in the last age . Ergo , I may charge them on the present Non-conformists ; yea on the whole Chorus , yea on their Discipline that desired Bishop Usher's Episcopacy . ] Let it be so , that you may be your self : As to what you say against the Genevian Principles , as against Government , &c. I answer , 1. Why did you not name some one of those Principles , and try by what Consequence it inferreth all the Villanies which you name . Do not the Papists say the same of the Protestants . 2. And next , why did you not prove that we hold those rebellious Genevian Principles ? Were it Christian dealing in me , if I should say , [ Because Prins History of Prelates Treasons proveth that multitudes of Prelates have been Traytors therefore our present Prelates are such too . ] But we see what Instruments the Prince of Malice and Calumny useth . You tell me that you shall the less believe Confessions , because the Parliaments Declarations so differed from their practice . Ans. 1. But will you falsly accuse the part that is good for the part that is evil ? Most Christians live not according to the Christian Profession : Is the Christian Profession therefore bad , and the cause of all their Villanies ? Will you judge fidem ex homine ? Will you charge all that upon a mans Religion objectively considered , which you find amiss in his life . 2. Do you not know that our Question now is not what the men are , but what their Principles and Discipline , and that it is not the Professio profitens , but the Professio professa which is to be disputed of . And by what means shall any Church or Party under Heaven defend their Religion against such a Censurer and Disputant as you are ? They will say that they have the true Religion ; you will say , no , for you are not true to your Religion : They will say , that their Articles are true ; you will say , no , they are false , because you live not according to them , ( which implieth that they are true and good , or else what fault were it to contradict them in practice . ) The Protestant will say , Our Religion is sound and agreeable to Gods Word : you teach the Papists to answer , no , it 's false , for there are vicious Livers among you . And I pray you , what number of Sinners must go to prove a Religion , Creed , or Articles false ? Must it be all , or the major part , or will any one serve ? Must the Kingdom try by the Pole , or Vote whether the Vicious or the Vertuous are the greater number among them , before they can prove their Religion true ? Doth the Act go to the Essence of the Object ? 3. But if it must needs be so , I pray dispute no more against the Non-conformists , or dispute against them better by your Lives , than you have done ? Will you teach them to argue the XXXIX Articles , the Liturgy , and Book of Ordination are not true , or to be subscribed , because the Conformists live thus or thus . You know Foreigners and Posterity know not which of the Histories of this Age are true or false : Suppose that they should read Mr. White 's Centuries of Drunkards , &c. ejected from the Ministry , and the Records of the Country Committees , saying , So many and so many were upon Oath proved scandalous Drunkards , &c. And Ralph Wallis naming so many Drunkards and scandalous Conformists now . Would you have them question the Principles and Discipline of the Church of England , till they can prove these Histories false . I profess to you resolvedly , that if I must needs judge that Church or Party to have the soundest Principles and Discipline , who have the best lives ; I should far and very far prefer the Presbyterians , Independents , and much more the Conciliators , before the Prelatists , and yet not extenuate any of their Faults . But all this is nothing to you that go another way to work . [ Why tell you of mens Professions , when you see their contrary Practice ? ] When as it is not the Practice only , but the Profession that is the Principles and Discipline that you accused : And so when their Principles are in question , why do we talk to you of their Principles ? And how silly a shift is all this covered with ? Because the Parliament promised to make the King the most glorious King , if he would return to them , &c. But 1. Is a Promise and Disciplinarian Principles of the same nature , when we question their truth . The Promise is not true , unless it agree with the Mind of the Promiser , of which God is the Iudge till Performance shew it . But Principles may be true , though he that profess them be never so false . 2. And I pray remember , that the Parliament were pulled to pieces , and conquered by Souldiers ( even for resolving to close with the King ) before the King could be cut off . But as for the first War , I have told you the Authors of it .

To your next ; [ If we must call none Episcopal men that are not faithful to their Principles ] Then I know not indeed whom I may call such : If Parties must be notified by their Fidelity , we should have agreed thus to sense the Word before we had disputed , for other men speak not thus . Did you think I cited Moulin against Philanax to prove that our Principles are better than the Papists . Have you read him all , and understand him no better ? I cited him as fully proving historically that the Places now charged with Presbyterianism and Rebellion , Geneva , Holland , &c. had changed this Government before , or on other accounts ; Flanders and Brabant joyned with Holland in the change , the main Body being Papists , who after fell off when the Prince of Orange mentioned Liberty of Religion . And for Geneva , pag. 27. he faith , [ My business being to vindicate the Reformation from the charge of Rebellion , I must take from the Reformers of Geneva that Aspersion , that they expelled their Bishop , and that they altered the Constitution of that State , and both these ascribed to Calvin : It is a Tradition received in England , as a currant and undoubted Truth : ( A fair Credit to the Prelatists Honesty and historical Veracity ! ) And upon that ground many fine and judicious Inferences are built . But it is like the Story of the Phoenix , and the singing of Swans , never the truer . What credit can be given to Histories of things bapned in the Indies 2000 years ago ? if in things done so lately , and so near us , gross Mistakes go for uncontrolable Truths . ( You know with whom . ) I say , it is utterly false that Calvin was one of the Planters of the reformed Religion at Geneva . False also that he or the Reformers at Geneva turned their Bishop out of doors . And false also that the Bishop went away upon the quarrel of Religion . The Bishop was fled eight Months before the Reformation , seeing his Conspiracy discovered to oppress the Liberties of the City by the help of the Duke of Savoy , for which his Secretary was hanged after he was gone ; the said Bishop being hated before , for the Rape of a Virgin , and many Adulteries with Citizens Wives . And it is most to be noted , That they who after his flight reformed the Civil Government were strong Papists , and mainly opposed the reformation of Religion .

I shall recite no more out of this Episcopal Doctor , Prebend of Canterbury , but desire you again to read page 23 , 24. What changed Luther's mind to own the Protestants Arms against the Emperour . And page 32 , 33. What King James saith to vindicate the French Protestants ; [ I never knew yet that the French Protestants took Arms against their King , &c. ] And that Cap. 3. pag. 64 , to 73. He cites the Confessions of all the Churches , the Augustane , the French , the Belgick , the Helvetian , the Bohemian , the Saxonian , the Swevian , the English , as consenting for Obedience to their Soveraigns . But all this is nothing to you that can say nothing of worth against it : Neither the Vindication of their Principles or Practice . But ( unrighteous Judge ) I am with you ( partial and unequal . ) 1. Because I told you , that you should not have set down the bare Names of T. C. and Travers , as a Charge , without citing what they say . And is not that true ? Is that an unequal expectation ? And what if I had added , That had you proved them guilty , it had not concerned any of us , or our Discipline or Principles , till you had proved that we had owned the same ? And is that unequal ? O Justice ! 2. Because I said , [ I will no further believe Bancroft or Sir Th. Aston , then they prove what they say . ] No , nor you neither . Must I believe Adversaries accusing Parties without proof , and such Adversaries too ! Why must I believe them more than Heylin , or more than Doctor Moulin afore-cited believed the English Tradition against Geneva ? Is this the equality of your way ?

§ . 37. It 's tedious disputing with a man that cannot or will not understand what is said , no not the Question , no not the Subject of it . You cite my words out of the Saints Rest , that say not any thing to the Question . The Question is not , What were the final Motives of the War ? But , what was the Controversie of the warranting Cause and Foundation , that must decide the Case , whether it was lawful or unlawful . The Bonum publicum , and the Gospel and Religion , and mens Salvations , are the great moving ends and Reasons of a lawful War . But it is not these Ends that will serve to prove a War lawful ? Could that be the Cause or Controversie which they were both agreed in ? Did not the King profess to be for Religion , Liberty , &c. as well as they . See yet his Shrewsbury Half-crowns ( if Coin be any evidence with you ) private men may not raise War for Religion ; but the King may . The Finis and the Fundamentum are not the same . I there talkt but of the Finis and Motives , I now speak of the Fundamentum and Controversie , which is well known to be , whether the King or Parliament then had the power of the Militia , rebus sic stantibus ; and whether the Parliament had true Authority to raise an Army against the Army Commissioned by the King for that Defence , and executing the Law upon Delinquents , which they then pretended to . Now I say still , I know no Theological Controversie herein : I know no Scripture but Policy and Law , and Contract , that will tell us , whether the King of Spain , or the States , be the rightful Governours of the Low Countries ? Or , whether the King of France be absolute ? If you can out of Scripture prove that all Republicks must have the same Form and Degree of Government , or how Forms and Degrees must be varied in each Land . I resist you not , but only confess my weakness , that so high a performance is beyond my power . Had you understood the Question , you might have spared your Citation of my words .

§ . 41. You come again to our swearing Conformity ; and you say , [ That it must reasonably be understood of a tumultuous and armed endeavour . ] Answ. 1. And it is publickly known that we are ready to swear against a tumultuous and armed endeavour ( unless by the King's Command . ) If you would not endeavour it , even with Arms , if the King commanded you , accuse us not of Disloyalty for being more Loyal than you . If you would , we are of the same judgment as to the thing : And so ( while the thousands of ignorant Souls are untaught ) men of the same judgment ( on our part openly professed out ) must some be Teachers , and some silenced , some preferred , and some in Prison , and banished from Corporations , &c. even while they hold the same thing . And why ? Because one part of them dare take an Oath in a more stretching sence than the others dare : And that , 1. Because they are taught ( not only by Amesius where you cite him ) but by all consciencious judicious Casuists , That an Oath is to be taken strictly and not stretchingly , in the common sense of the words , unless the Law-givers will otherwise explain themselves . 2. And the words are universal [ Not endeavour at any time ] without the least limitation or exception of any sort of endeavour . ( I should have broke that Oath by this writing to you had I taken it . ) Et non est distinguendum aut limitandum fine lege . 3. The Law-makers are to be supposed wise , considerate men , especially the Bishops , and able to distinguish between an universal and a particular or limited enunciation , and to express their minds in congruous words . 4. The Law-makers knew before and since that we would take the Oath , if ( Endeavouring ) had been limited as you do ; and yet they never would limit it by one syllable . 5. The Reasons used for that Clause , and our acquaintance with the Bishops and other Authors of it , leave our Consciences perswaded , that their meaning was against all Endeavours , and not tumultuous , military , or illegal only ; as in the Et caetera Oath 1640. It was that [ I will not consent ] which is less than [ Endeavouring . ] And we are not ignorant what relation this Oath hath to that : And we take it to be a sin to deceive our Rulers , by taking an Oath in that sence which we believe was not by them intended , and seeming to them to swear what we do not mean . 6. When twenty London Ministers took the Oath , because Doctor Bates told them , that the Lord Keeper promised him at the giving it , to put in the words [ Endeavour by any seditious or unlawful means ] ( or to that sense ) the said limiting words were not only left out , but when old Mr. Sam. Clark said , My Lord , we mean only unlawful endeavour : Judge Keeling asked , Will you take the Oath as it is offered you , and refused to add any such Explication ; and told them when they had done , they had renounced the Covenant . 7. The Justices tell us when they offer us the Oath , That we must take it according to the plain sense of the words . 8. The Parliament in the Act for regulating Corporations , in the Declaration there imposed , and the Oath , doth fully satisfie us what is their sense about this matter . 9. It is not true ( as far as any London Ministers can know ) that ever the Judges declared their sense as you say for that limitation : That is , that ever they did by any Consultation and Concord give any judgment in the Case , whatever any single Judge ( as the Lord Keeper ) might say privately , or any one alone , when another may say the contrary . 10. If they had , it 's a known thing , whatever their judgment may do to make Cases in the Common Law , yet as to Statute Law , only the Law-makers are the Law-Interpreters , as to any Interpretation which shall be as the Law it self , a Rule universally to the Subjects : And that Judges and Justices ( who here are made the Judges ) do only interpret the Law , for the decision of particular Controversies that come before them . And if all the Judges and Justices in England should meet and agree of this Statute , it would only shew how they resolve in particular judgments to expound it , and not what is the true obliging sense to the Subjects Conscience : Otherwise the Judges would be equal to , if not above the King and Parliament . For he hath more power who determineth what sense and soul the Laws shall have , than they that only make the words and body , which others may put what sense they please on . Nor can all the Judges make it lawful to take up Arms against the King , if they so expounded any Law : They have a deciding Expositors judgment as to the Case before them , but not the regulating universal expounding power at all . 11. We think that Divines that preach against sin , above al● men must not stretch their Consciences in so dangerous a point as publick swearing . 12. And we think that if men be once taught to equivocate , and play fast and loose with the sacred Bond of Oaths , Conscience is quite debauched , no sufficient Bar is left to keep out any the greatest sins ; Preachers and People become incredible ; humane society is endeavoured to be dissolved , and the King's Life ( secured much by his Subjects Fidelity and Conscience of an Oath ) is exposed to the wicked wills of men . We charge no others with all this , but we will avoid it our selves though it cost us yet more . You may swear [ not to endeavour ] and mean particularly [ not by Tumult or Arms , but by some other endeavour ; ] but so cannot we . Therefore do you enjoy your Liberty , Maintenance , and Honour , and we will be without them ; and to morrow , at death , we shall be as free and as high as you .

But fie , Sirs , why will you talk of [ straining Oaths , and turning plain Oaths into Snares , ana● allowing no Interpreters ? ] Are your ways here equal too ? 1. What is the plain sense , but an universal sense of an universal enunciation ? If by [ All ] or [ None ] I understand All or None , and you understand not All but Some , who is the Strainer of the Oath ? And I pray you tell me , if once any endeavour shall be excepted , who shall determine how much it must be . The first part of the Oath saith [ Not on any pretence whatever : ] That is , we must not take up Arms against any Commissioned by the King . What if a bold limited Expositor will here come in , and say , [ Except King John deliver up the Kingdom to the Pope ; Or except the King's Commissions through the Officers fault should be contradictory ] Or such Exceptions as Wil. Barclay and Grotius make ? Should not this man rather be the Equivocator and Strainer of the Oath , than he that thinketh so plain a Phrase , as [ not any pretence whatsoever ] is exclusive of any pretence whatsoever ? Never trust the man that feareth not an Oath . 2. But why talk you of none being Interpreters ? we cannot give the Power to whom we please : The Law-makers think it best as it is , and will not interpret as you do , when they can , and know all the Reasons that you can give them . The Justices are made our Judges : I told you that the Justices when they sent me to the Gaol , refused to Expound it , and told me I must take it according to the proper sense of the words . Yet do you go on , as if none of all this had been said to you .

As to what you say of Obligation by the Covenant , and leaving a gap , &c. I answer , Melancholy men by fearing bring the thing feared on themselves : It was the Et caetera Oath 1640 , that forced me ( who else had lived quietly in my ignorance ) to read and study many Authors , to know the truth before I swore , who turned me ( not against Episcopacy ) but against the Italian and Diocesan frame . The Covenant is not the thing that they are in danger of , but their own Diseases ; we firmly believe that the Covenant bindeth us to nothing but what we were bound to if we had never taken it , as being not a primary Bond to make new Duty , but a secondary to bind us to that only which is antecedently a duty ; and that no Vow or Covenant bindeth us from obeying the King in any thing indifferent , much less a duty before . These are our Principles , however you nauseate them . But without respect to any Vow or Covenant , we hold that we are all bound ( not to any Treason , Rebellion , or any illegal means ; but ) in our true Place and Calling to endeavour that those things may be reformed in the Discipline , which my first Dispute of Church Government hath proved to be evil ( After which so long unanswered , you need not so loudly have called for my Reasons : ) And if this be it that maketh you think my Retraction not sincere , think what you please , I never retracted any of this .

§ . 44. First , They that exercise the Keys of Excommunication and Absolution in the ordinary open Judicatures of the Land , are Church Governours : But Lay Chancellors exercise the Keys of Excommunication and Absolution , in the ordinary open Judicatures of the Land ; Ergo , Lay-Chancellors are Church-Governours . 2. Who doubts but the Et caetera included them . If it included None , it was superfluous : If Any , how exclude you them . And is it not said , [ As it standeth , and ought to stand . ] But were it but Deans and Archdeaeons , I would not swear , that if the King commanded me by Writing or Petition to endeavour some alteration , I will resist or disobey him ; you may do as you will . 3. It were too long now to tell you , how far I take my Conscience obliged to a Lay-Chancellor , and how far not . 4. But what 's next ? That [ no Learned men so much as maintain in the Schools , the Lay-Chancellors Church Government . ] And yet have we hot and feaverish heads , if we will not swear to that which no man will maintain . Well! let it go for our Crime or Folly while such men judge . 5. Add p. 20. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom ; a good understanding have all they that do them . — Fools make a mock of sin . — See that ye walk circumspectly , not as fools , but as wise . To fear an Oath is a mark of the fear of God ; and I am sure to play with Oaths is a mark of the contrary . God will not hold him guiltless that taketh his Name in vain . All things by temptation may go for lawful to him , to whom Perjury , deliberate studied Perjury seems lawful , yea and a duty . And avoiding the name , is no avoiding of the thing . He that will commit Murder , Adultery , Theft , &c. and then prove it to be no Murder , &c. doth not thereby escape the guilt : And he that is not willing to know Sin to be sin that he may leave it , is wilful and wicked , as well as he that will not leave it , when he knoweth it . We do search the Scripture to know what is Perjury as well as we can ; And we are the less likely to be partial , when our judgment loseth us the favour of so many , and our Maintenance , and Liberty , and in Prisons , hazardeth our Lives , besides our Ministry , the most of all . Few men will take this way for the flesh ; yet this is no proof that our Cause is good : But let the Evidence shew , whether in fearing Perjury we fear [ a Serpent under every Leaf , or a Gorgons head in every Bush , and bring this Woe upon our selves ] or not : If we do , it is not for worldy ends , nor is it by a superstitious fear of things indifferent . If so many in Queen Maries days were burnt for denying the Real Presence , &c. Shall I not fear Perjury ?

§ . 44. Next p. 20. you come to the Liturgies Confession , that our Discipline is imperfect , and think that should satisfie me . Ans. So it doth satisfie me , not to assent and consent to all things contained in and prescribed by the Book of Ordination and the Liturgie , and not to forswear all lawful endeavours of a Reformation ; it seeming unmeet for me ( whatever others do ) to give so plenary assent and consent thus to swear , to that which in the same Book is confest imperfect : I can live in Communion with a Church that hath imperfections , and keep its peace , but not assent , consent , or swear to its Imperfections . 2. An you give me no reason yet , why a Confession the imperfection of Discipline should satisfie u● that all things in the Church Government , or all Church-Government is both lawful and necessary , and unalterable : For if it be alterable by King and Parliament , I wil ●●●● swear never to endeavour an alteration , though they command me : Nor will I believe you if you say that this Case ( of their command ) is excepted , while the terms are universal without exception ; Remembring that the long Parliament long before the Wars , when the Lord Falkland , Lord Digby , and the rest joyned with them , did exagitate the Et caetera Oath , for the word [ Not consent ] as establishing Prelacy as an unalterable thing ; whereas they knew not but the King and Parliament might be brought to see cause for some alteration . And this Parliament hath not restored that Oath ( and Canons , )

Ib. §. 44. My Consutation of your horned Reasoning , and of the common [ peralium ] I perceive offendeth you , as triumphant . It is natural for men that see plain truth , to be guilty of calling it truth : In this if we cannot be pardoned , we must be patient . Truth it self is our reward and satisfaction . The force of my Reply you indeed leave intire and untoucht ; For when you say , that you break my Chain at the first Link , you do but repeat what I replyed to , and put me but to say over again what I said . You say that Lay-Chancellors excommunicate neither as Lay-men , or as Clergy-men formally , or by any proper Causality , but from the Surrogates . ] Answ. And were you willing here to be understood ? Either they do Excommunicate by proper Causality , ( without causality no Act is done ) or they do not . If you mean that indeed they do not , why would you not say so , and deal plainly ? If you mean they Excommunicate but ●●●● by Causality , why would you not say so ( which ●●most absurd . ) If they do it , they do it formally as some persons , and in some capacity , and by some power or right whatever it is . That they do Excommunicate and Absolve decretively , as the stated publick Judges , is notorious to the Land . That the Person in which they do it , is formally Lay or Clergy , I thought had been past doubt , and the enumeration had been sufficient . But you do dare tertium , find out a third Mumber : He is formally neither Lay nor Clergy , but doth it from the Surrogates ; See you not how you change the Question , [ In what person he doth it ] into [ from whom he doth it ] or make that [ from ] to signifie a third Species , which you could not or would not name : And when I say , that if he do it from the Surrogate , yet he doth it either as a Lay-man or a Clergy-man ; you answer me as neither [ but from the Surrogate . ] You might have said as well , As neither , but from the King . But who ever it is from , tell us of what Species that man is in acting , who is neither formally a Lay-man , nor a Clergy-man ; whereas in our present sence , as a Clergy-man signifieth , , One in the Priesthood or Deaconship , dedicated to the Sacred Church-Offices : I easily prove that in the World there is no third sort ; because the terms signifie Opposita contradicentia , & contradictio est omnium oppositionum maxima , prima & reliquarum mensura . For to be a Lay-man , is to be one that is not devoted and separated as aforesaid . And Devotus & non devotus , separatus ad sacra & non separatus , vel persona sacrata & non sacrata , are contradicentia . And if you allow me not to swear or conform till you prove that some men are neither Lay nor Clergy , you will be no succesful Pithanalogist with me . But I desired to know who this Surrogate is that you mean , and you will not tell me : If you mean any one that is absent and no Member of the Court. 1. The Chancellor hath his power from no such man as is notorious . 2. You might better say , that he had it from the Bishop : But still I should ask in what person he acted , and whether as a Lay or a Clergy-man . But if you mean the Priest present who pronounceth the sentence , I never heard that he was called the Surrogate till now : But call him how you will ; 1. It is notorious that he giveth not the Chancellor his power at all . 2. And as notorious that he hath not , nor exerciseth the power himself : But to judge any man to Excommunication or Absolution , is the Chancellors part ; and the present Priest is but like the Parish Priest , who readeth or speaketh ( as a Cryer ) what the Chancellor judgeth and ordereth : And whether such Priest be any Member of the Court , or constantly used , I leave to your Enquiry ; but certainly he is no Judge at all , nor doth any thing but pronounce as he is bid . And still my Arguing is unanswered : For had this Presbyter the power , it would be either as a Presbyter , or as a Bishop . Not as a Presbyter , say the Prelatists ; for then it will set Presbyters too high , or rather take hundreds from that which belongeth to their Office , whilst one in the same Office exerciseth the Keys upon all their people and themselves that are his equals : Et par in parem non habet potestatem . Not as Bishops , for they are not such really , and the Episcopacy cannot be delegated , as I proved . You said ( which I am glad of ) That it may be you could wish that Excommunication were reduced into a more Scriptural , Apostolical , and Primitive Channel as much as my self . But you never look that the Church below should be without spot or wrinkle . ] Answ. You speak here so well , that it half reconcileth us : If so , then the main difference left is , ( not whether we shall live peaceably in such a Church , or promise to do so ; for that I have oft done , yea and did subscribe to the Archbishop that now is , ( when he gave me a Licence to Preach , and I could have had it without subscribing a word ) that I would not Preach against the Doctrine , Liturgy , or Ceremonies of the Church : But ) whether I may deliberately give my hand and profession that I assent and consent to such a frame , and may swear that I will not any time endeavour an alteration of that Government , which runs not in the Scriptural , Apostolick , Primitive Channel , nor of its acknowledged spots and wrinkles : That is , To promise or swear that I will not obey God , nor seek the Reformation of any such thing in his Church , which is acknowledged amiss , no not in my place and calling , and by any lawful means . Whereas in my Baptism I vowed my self and service to Christ as the Saviour of his Body ; and in my Ordination I vowed my self to him as a Minister ; and I daily pray for the hallowing of his Name , the coming of his Kingdom , the doing of his Will on Earth even as it is done in Heaven : And therefore will not by swearing to the contrary , renounce my Baptism , Ministery , or Prayers . ( Pardon the description of the Sin as it would be to me : I do not say , that it is such in you , or another that seeth not what I see . ) Good Meanings and Latitudes , and stretching Expositions , will not make this pass with me among things indifferent . And ( for your own sake , not mine , who stand or fall to a higher Tribunal : ) I entreat you to judge of us in this as of men that are dying daily , and neer a World where Preferments and Wealth , and humane Favour signifie nothing ; and who are so unwilling to neglect our undertaken Office for mens Souls , that we offer our Superiours to take it joyfully as a Favour to be any way punished for this supposed Sin ( of not lying nor being perjur'd ) so it may not hinder us from Preaching the Gospel of Salvation ; Even to be punished as deeply as common Swearers , Drunkards , or Adulterers are ; to rid Channels , to Dig or Plow , or to be burnt in the hand as Felons are , or our Ears bored or cropt as Rogues or perjur'd Persons are , so we may but Preach Christ , or see the Kingdoms so supplyed , as that our Labours may be truly needless to mens Salvation . I would take all this thankfully on my Knees : much more be denied the Levites Bread , or Ministerial Maintenance . But these are too high Favours for such as we to hope for in such a time , and from such Persons , as Experience proveth ; except that the Clemency of the King vouchsafeth us some convenience , against the will of such of the Clergy as you : Nothing but either Debauching our Consciences , and stretching them so wide , as that any thing will afterward go down ; or else deserting the Preaching of Christ for mens Salvation , will serve with some men that I have talkt with : ( For it is not my Superiours now that I am speaking of ; ) I did all that I was able unfeignedly , to have brought all men once to Union with the Church , upon any other terms than these , when the thing was feasible as to the most : But — was an Enemy , and one that deserved shame and ruine for it . But I am gone back : To return . —

I am glad also that you say , That the Surrogates have the power of the Keys ; and indeed so most School-men say , and so Spalatensis hath notably and oft proved : But what it will infer against Bishops , denying them to all the Presbyters in a whole Diocess , save one or two , or few : I will not repeat .

You say , I did not well to overlook what you said about Chancellour's Skill in the Civil Law , &c. ] Answ. I did not overlook it , but past it by as an Impertinency , supposing we had been agreed : 1. That the holy Scriptures are the Universal Rule of Church Discipline as to the Essentials , and the Laws of the Land , and Canonical Agreements , the subservient Rules about Circumstances , and Adjuncts , and for the execution of the former . 2. And that Ability in Scriptures ( much less in the Roman Laws ) doth give no man authority to the exercise of the Spiritual Keys without a Call , being but his remote Capacity . 3. And that he that is called hereunto is called to be a Clergy-man , to whome the Keys are proper . I pray you , Sir , deny none of this : ( Let Begging this once go instead of Arguing . 4. And he may be fit to Advise and Assist a Bishop that is himself no Clergy man ; but Advising and judicial Decreeing are several things . 5. And I am weary with saying , that we submit to Chancellors as Magistrates , doing that which belongeth to Magistrates , according to the sense of the Oath of Supremacy . But what 's all this to our Case in hand ? ] You add , [ Tell me , Sir , may not a man be said to do that virtually , which he doth not immediately . ] Answ. Yes , a man may pay a Debt by his Servant , or Deputy ; but not Baptize or Administer the Lords Supper , or Discipline by another , because Christ hath annexed the Office to the Person , and the Office is an Obligation and Authority to do the work .

You add , [ The King doth neither Preach , nor Administer Sacraments , yet hath a Supremacy of Power in all things belonging to the Church . ] Answ. Now I cannot follow you so far , as to believe that the King doth virtually Administer the Sacraments per alios : At least I durst not swear it . If you think it is but a Gorgons head that affrighteth me ; hear and judge : 1. Christ gave the Keys immediately to Ministers , and not to Kings , and distinguished their Offices . 2. Queen Elizabeth ' K. Iames , and the Convocation have publickly disclaimed such a sense of the Oath of Supremacy , and taken it for the Papists slanders , and disclaimed such a Power of the Keys in the King , and so hath our present King ( wisely ) in my hearing . 3. Some Scots are well charged with an injurious refusal of the Oath of Supremacy , on the account of such a false Exposition ; which is the Papists Case . 4. Almost all the Papists and Protestants in the World that ever I heard or read , are agreed , that the King hath not the said Power of the Spiritual Keys and Sacraments . 5. And specially the most learned and zealous Defenders of Monarchy and Prelacy : Bilson of Chest . Obed. and Perp. Gov. and Andrews in Tortura Torti , have most plainly and vehemently renounced it , and shewed their malice or ignorance , that impute such an Arrogation to our Kings : So also Carlton of Jurisdic . Jewel , Whitaker , and who not . 6. What a King may do virtually by another , I think ( unless Inconveniencies hinder the exercise ) he hath power to do himself . But I think the King may not Administer Sacraments or Spiritual Discipline himself : Which of our Kings did it ? Or who since Uzziah offered Sacrifice among the Jews . 7. Our Kings never yet pretended so much as to Ordain ; that is , to Invest another in that Power Ministerially in the Name of Christ . But as to the Supremacy , it 's true , that the King is the Supream over Physicians , Philosophers , &c. but not the Supream Physician or Philosopher : He exerciseth Coercive Government by the Sword over Bishops who use Spiritual Government by the Keys and Word ; but hath not Authority to use this same sort of oversight himself ( unless a Clergy-man were King , as some are Magistrates . ) As to the Proxies of the Lords Spiritual in Parliament , when you have as well proved that Christ hath allowed them to Preach , Administer Sacraments , and exercise the Keys by Proxies , I will yield all that Cause : But they will be loath to go to Heaven by Proxy .

Page 21. As to Jebosaphats Mission , and his Nobles Teaching ; I answer , 1. Teaching is not so proper to a Pastor or Clergy-man , as the Keys and Sacraments : Parents have their Office or Power of teaching , and School-masters and Lay Catechists have theirs , and Magistrates have theirs : Judges on the Bench do usually teach the People , even religious Duties ; so did Constantine , and so may any King . But there is a different teaching whith is proper to the Clergy ; which is [ by teaching to gather Churches , and guide them , and edifie them as Pastors , devoted or separated to this as their proper Office . ] As there is a difference between the Office of a Physician and a Womans healing a cut finger , or giving a Cordial to one that fainteth . But this proper Teaching ( which God did not leave in common to others ) no Prince can use , no Bishop can do by Proxy ; Nor can he delegate to a Lay-man the power of the Keys and Sacraments . 2. And the King may no doubt command Pastors to do their Duty as well as Physicians to do theirs . I take none of this to be quarrelling , but plain truth : Your telling us that Chancellors may direct and advise the Surrogates , may signifie something in another Land , but not with us : If we had never seen their Courts , nor read Travers , Of the difference between Christs Discipline and theirs ; yet Cousin's Tables are in our Libraries .

You add , [ We are all but the Bishops Curates in the exercise of it . ] Answ. 1. I ventured to deny that to Bag shaw who made it the Reason of Separation : And I will yet deny it of some others , though not of you . If we are all but the Bishops Curates ; the Italian Bishops of Trent were not so absurd as they were made in making the Bishops the Popes Curates . How easie should I be , were I a Curate , could I believe that I have no more to answer for , than the Bishop imposed on me , and that he must answer for all the rest . I suppose that the Office of the Presbyters or Ministers of Christ is immediately Instituted and described in the Scriptures , and that the Bishop doth but Invest them in it , and that their work is their own , as properly as the Bishop's is his own , and that his Precminence , maketh not him the Communicator of the Power to them as from himself , nor them to be his Curates . 2. And while I think that I can prove this very easily , censure us not too deeply for not swearing to the Bishops , if the sence of it be , to make us his Curates . Not that I think my self too good to be a Servant to the Bishop's Coach man , but that I dare not subvert Christ's established Church Orders .

As for your [ Engine , and Wonders , and Babel , and Lucifer , and trembling ] I have not learning enough to answer them . As to your talk of Absolute Autocratical , &c. they are but Oratorical Flowers , that speak against none of our particular Doctrines , but are the rant of your Magisterial style . And your talk of Excommunicating Kings , may pass as part of your equal ways , to one that hath written so oft against Excommunicating Kings , ( when yet Bishop Andrews and other Prelates maintain the Refusing them the Communion ; and you know in what Case Chrysostom rather offered to lose Hand and Life , even then to give the Sacrament to the Greatest that was unworthy . Prove that ever any of the present Non-conformists , who were called to present the judgment or desires of the rest , did ever say more than Andrews and Bilson , or so much . But the Lord Digby is your Author . Answ. 1. Were we and our present Controversie , ( for the most of us ) in being , and at age when the Lord Digby spake that ? Is not Conformity now another thing ? Do all or half the Non-conformists profess themselves Presbyterians ? Are Presbyterians all for Excommunicating Kings ? And do not some that are for it , confine it only to such Pastors as Kings themselves shall commit their Souls to , and give leave to exercise that Power ? Are we , I say , we now living , and silenced , answerable for all that any Presbyterian holdeth , any more than you are for what Hooker holdeth ? Some Scots-men refuse the Oath of Supremacy . Are we guilty of that Mistake , who Take it , and Write for it ? Or did we spring out of their Loins , and must be silenced for such Original sin , derived from them that were no kin to us ? 2. But where did the Lord Digby say it ? You cite no Book or Speech of his ; but cite Rushworth , p. 218. Where is no syllable of any such matter , nor any where else that I can yet find . 3. Suppose he had ; Did he not say in his Letter to Sir Ken. Digby Printed , That the Primitive Church Government will be found pecking towards Presbytery : He was then Episcopal , he is now a Papist . Is not his Authority then ad hominem , while he was one of your own , more valued against you than against them that were not of his Party or way , and is this good arguing ? [ Whatever the Lord Digby , Bancroft , Heylin , ( and if you will Bellarmine ) charge the Presbyterians with 1640 , or I know not when or where , all that are the Non-conformists , Episcopal , Presbyterians , Independents , and Catholick Moderators are guilty of in 1671. But the Lord Digby sometimes said , that the Presbyterians would Excommunicate Kings : Ergo , the present Nonconformists , even Episcopal and all , are guilty of that Opinion , even they that write against it . ] But all your ways are just and equal : But I pray you , why was no Article about Excommunicating Kings offered us as a Test ? or why was there never any such difference between us and the Prelatists pretended ? Try us whether we will not subscribe in this to , as much as the Prelatists ever did agree on , or ordinarily hold , and lay our Liberty upon it , and spare not . But I remember you nibled before at my words in Differ . of Magist . and Pastors power , Thes. 60. p. 38. as if I had said , That [ unless perhaps in some rare Case , Kings may not be Excommunicated . ] A Calumny , when I annexed those words of exception only to the Excommunicating of Parents . But your ways are still equal ! And I gave even Moral Reasons against Excommunicating Kings and Parents . But when you in swearing will put ( who knows how many ) Exceptions to express Universals , must I after all this be at your mercy , unless I will say , that [ In no rare case a Pastor may Excommunicate his own Parents . ] What if the rare Case were 1. That he were but one in a Presbytery subject to a Bishop , and his Parents were as open Apostates as Julian , and the Bishop and the rest of the Presbytery required him to concur in their Excommunication ? 2. What if the King command a Bishop to Excommunicate a Magistrate or Parent for Treason ? Must he needs be disobeyed . 3. What if God should send an Angel or Prophet with a particular Message so to do ? I am sure that Case is rare enough , and I durst not disobey . But it s hard pleasing some men .

§ . 45. Semper idem ? 1. But will you give it under your hand as a Lesson to your Flock , That a Minister may not gainsay another for slandering Christians , who in any thing differ from him that doth gainsay him ; nor may defend the Innocency of a Presbyterian , unless he be one himself ? And that all men are bound to stand to the Opinions of all Christians in all other points , whom they seek to vindicate against publick slanders . What a pack of Doctrines do the Reasonings of these your Writings imply if they were but set together . If I write almost twenty years ago , and still against Lay Elders , a Conformist may equally charge that upon me which I write against , if I do but plead against slandering those that hold what I dissent from . Yea [ he knoweth not where to have us ] so little do our Writings signifie our minds in these mens account . The first Epist. to Kederm . in the first Book that ever I wrote , disclaims them : But that 's nothing to you . And I must be taken for the Achilles of the Party , and accountable for their Opinions ; if I do but say to a Printing Conformist , [ Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy Neighbour . ] May I not say so to you for a Heathen or a Papist . Dr. Heylin tells us in the Life of Archbishop Laud , That the Kings Printers were censured sorely for Printing the Seventh Commandment [ Thou shalt commit Adultery . ] But I never yet met with the Ninth Commandment so transmuted , to give you any excuse : If you think it lawful to say any thing how unjust soever against a man that is not for your Discipline ( which you as much wish amended your self ) I am of another mind . When Lamprid . tells us , that Alex Severus borrowed his Motto of the Christians , Quod tibi fieri non vis , &c. He never said that therefore he was a Christian . I had got no Lawyer to plead for me at the Bar , if they had known that they were accountable for all my Opinions . I am sure the Lord Chief Justice when he acquit me , thought fit to declare his different judgment from mine in point of Preaching privately : Yet here your terms of Logick are , [ Into how many shapes — and Hecatetriformis — Fish , flesh , Mermaid , Episcopal , Presbyterian , Independent ; yet none of these when you please an 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , sometimes in the water , sometimes out ; I wish you were hot or cold . ] All this set together would make a Syllogism of a new Mood and Figure . But 1. For ought I know most of the Nonconformists are such are your bungling description intimateth : And whatever men hold , take it as it is , and feign them not to hold what they do not . Do not you in Print proclaim men to be flesh or fish , hot or cold , that are not so ? But lay our Error where it lieth ( even as I must not take your Chancellors for Clergy-men or Lay-men . ) 2. And did not all my tedious writings convince you before now ? that I therefore take that for an honour which you take for my disgrace ; because I take that for plain and certain truth , which you reproach , : You could not ( except a Catholick Christian ) have trulier called me , than an Episcopal Presbyterian-Independent . I have oft enough told the World , that I am very confident that each of the three Parties have some Truths and some Errors appropriate to themselves , or which the rest have not . I never found in Scripture any Obligation that I must needs be of a Faction , in a time when Faction hath bred Wars , troubled Kingdoms , silenced Preachers by the hundreds , &c. and when I have seen and felt the Effects , and not been always innocent of the Cause : Nor yet that I must either refuse all the good , or receive all the bad , and feed on the excrements of any Faction whatsoever ; I am for no such heats or cold ; I am no such fish or flesh : I will neither persecute as Paul did , nor separate as Peter did , Gal. 2. nor comply as Barnabas did , nor reject the Brethren as Diotrephes did , nor condemn others as the Weak did , nor despise them as the strong did , Rom. 14. 1 , 2 , &c. But be such an 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , as he that became a Jew , a Greek , all things to all men that he might win some . When I offended the Bishops in Conference , I openly told them , I had ever taken kneeling at the Sacrament to be lawful , but I never took it to be lawful to cast honest Christians out of the Communion of the Church of Christ , that dare not do it . Did this prove me to be neither fish nor flesh ? Is no man of your Religion that is not for Excommunication , or Prisons , Swords or Flames , for every Child of God that cryeth or wrangleth with the Breast . Again I will say , were they Priscillianists , I am more for Martin's Spirit than the Ithacian Bishops . And , Sir , that factious fury and uncharitableness keepeth up but a present violent kind of honour ; the Instance now once again named may tell you , that when all the Bishops thereabouts in their Synods did but seek to the Magistrate to use the Sword against such gross Hereticks as the Priscillianists , who as Severus saith that knew them , were Gnosticks , and but one poor ragged unlearned godly Bishop Martin , ( with one other only in all France ) did dissent from them , reprove them , and separate for it from their Synods and Communion ( Godly people accidentally falling under the Vulgars reproach for the Hereticks sake , as lately by the word Puritans here ) yet this one poor Bishop that renounced all their Communions for it , is Canonized a Saint , while Hooker himself justly reproacheth Ignatius . And it made me marvail to read in Bellarmine de Scriptor . Ecles . pag. 100. this great Lie that Ithacius ( whom he falsly makes the same with Idacius , who was one of the same Synod , and Author of the Chron. in Jos. Scaliger de emend temp. ) In eo reprehensus & punitus ab Episcopis fuit , quod Priscillianum apud seculares judices accusaverit & occidi cur averit . ] Whenas 1. The Bishops never punished him for it . 2. The Synod of Bishops joyned with him . 3. Martin was despised as an unlearned Hypocrite , and Favourer of the Hereticks that did renounce their way and Communion . 4. Ithacius and Idacius because of the common Odium , would have pretended that they put not on the Magistrate hereunto : And that Bellarmine one of the Tribe that is for burning Hereticks , should yet leave this blot on Idacius , and seek by untruths to excuse the rest of the Bishops of it ; whence is it , but that the Memory of the just shall be blessed , and the Name of the wicked ( the cruel especially ) shall rot . I digress only to tell you , that the honour of violence will end in shame , and he be odious to Posterity , who may be set up as high as Gardiner or Bonner , to serve the turn in some present Execution : And I had rather be luke-warm , than have a destroying or slandering heat .

To what you say of Beza and Selden , I answer , 1. Did I or the present Nonconformists ever subscribe to Beza or Geneva . 2. Is it not palpably against your self , that cry down Lay Elders , ( though many with Ministers have power but in one Presbytery or Synod ) when our Lay Chancellor hath the power over hundreds of Ministers and Churches . You that cry up or keep up Lay-mens Church Discipline , may worse speak against Lay-mens Church Discipline , than we that are against it in all whomsoever . 3. But Beza and Geneva do not take them for Lay Elders , nor the Scots neither , but for Church Elders , and part of the Clergy of Divine Institution ; none of which is pretended for Lay Chancellors . And is that no difference ? For Selden as I know what he saith against the Diocesan Church , Bishops in Eutychius Alexandr . So I know what he saith against all of us for Erastianism de Synedriis , better than by any Citations out of Heylin . And I know he was one of the Long Parliament that raised the War , whom even now you had possessed with the Spirit of Presbytery : And you may judge of many of the rest by Selden . And must you or I be Erastians because Selden ( and other Lawyers in the Parliament ) were so .

§ . 46. The Quibble in this Section is Content without an Answer .

§ . 47. I judged but of your Words , and judge you of my Motives for refusing a Bishoprick no worse than I give you cause . I answer you , it intimated no Ingratitude to His Majesty , nor did I ever repent : And that I did it not to keep up a Party or Interest in them , the Lord Chancellor had Evidence ; and my voluntary endeavours against all Faction , and casting away my Reputation with all such , declareth ; when I could as easily have kept it , as you with yours , and had no outward interest to move me to renounce it . I say this , because you seem suspectingly to talk of my Motives .

§ . 48. Our Question is , Whether a Church of One Altar ( as they spake of old ) Associated for personal Communion , and a Church of never so many Altars or Congregations Associated for other ends , and not for personal Communion be ejusdem speciei ? And so , whether the word Church here signifies but one Species ? You hold the Affirmative of both , and I the Negative . My reason is , 1. Because it being a Relative which is in question , [ The ends of the Society specifically differing , make the Societies specifically to differ , ( the Terminus being essential to the Relation . ) But here are different sorts of ends : Ergo , here are different sorts of Relations . I use the word ( ends ) to signifie the nearest end which specifieth , and not the remote . And to avoid the ambiguity of the word [ Terminus ] which ( as Finis cujus & finis cui are distinguished , so ) they use variously , sometimes for the Correlate , and sometimes for the nearest end ; and so I now use it . As a Master to teach a Grammar-school , and a Master to rule a Family , or to guide a Ship , are Relations specifically distinct à fine : And so is a Magistrate , and a Pastor , and a Physician , &c. This is clear . And for the Minor , That these Churches in question have different nearest ends is evident : For the end of a particular Church is personal ●ummunion in God's publick Worship and holy living , to their mutual assistance . But the ends of Churches that never know each other , but live an 100 or 1000 Miles asunder . ( They say some of our Islands and Plantations are parts of some English Diocesan Church ) can be no such thing , but only a distant communion in the same Faith , Love and Obedience . The end of a single Church is the personal Communion of Christians in that one Society . The end of an Association of many Churches , is the Communion of those many Churches in distant mental Concord , or by Delegates or Synods sometimes in ●ase of need . And who ever thought that a particular Church , a Patriarchal Church , and a Pabal or the Universal Church , were ejusdem spe●i●i . when they agree only in remote ends , and differ in the Terminus vel finis proximus . As a Kingdom and a Corporation differ Ex differentia ●inium ; because though both are Societies for Ci●il Communion and Government , and so agree ●n genere , yet the end of one is Kingdom government and Communion ; and the end of the other is ●ut Corporation-government and Communion . 2. Where there are different sorts of Relates & cor●elates , there are different sorts of Relations : But ●● a particular Church , and a Patriarchal , Dioce●n , or other Combination of many Churches , ●here are different sorts of Relates & correlates : Ergo , there are different sorts of Relations . The ●hing supposed in the major is undeniable , that ●●e Relate & correlate enter the definition ; ●●erefore the major is undeniable . The minor●pposeth ●pposeth a Church to be Constituted of the ●ars dirigens vel regens , and the pars subdita , as relate & correlate , which is undeniable . And ●en it is proved per partes . 1. The Pastor of a ●●gle Church , and a Patriarch , Pope , or Dioce●n of a multitude of combined Churches , are not the same Relate , for they have not the same Relation : ( I suppose the Relation of a Church to be thus Constitute of the two Complicate Relations , as well the Church subjectively of the two Relates . ) For , 1. The different Work . 2. And the different Correlate , prove these Pastors to be two sorts of Relation ( however agreeing in●genere . ) 1. It is not the same sort of Works personally to guide a present people in Doctrine , Worship , and Discipline ( under Christ as Prophet , Priest , King , all essential to the Office ) as to send others as his Curates to do this : ( For the King may send others , ) or to exercise some degree of Discipline himself over many Churches , where he is none of their Teacher , not Mouth , nor Guide in Worship , Prayer , Praise Sacraments , &c. Nor is it the same work to be an unusual Teacher ( as one may be in another Church or School ) and to be the stated ordinary Teacher and Worshipper of that Churrh which is the end of the particular Pastors Office . 2. And the Correlate proveth the difference : For it i● not the same Relation to be a Ruler of a Family and of a Kingdom ; and so here : which bring me to the proof of the Minor by the second part And that the Correlates are various is evident , no only from the magnitude , but the end also ther included : For the subject of Political Society ( Civitatis vel Ecclesiae ) is a Community , not an multitude of men : Because that which Aristat●calleth Privatio , and is better called Disposu●materiae , is necessary as a kind of Principle to th● reception of the Form . ( As in Physicks , so quianalogum in Relations : ) And therefore it must b● a Community . Now Communities themselves are first specified by their various ends : As a Company of men combined for Merchandize , and a Company combined for Literature , or for Souldiery , &c. are not the same : So a Company combined for Personal Communion and helps in holy Worship and living , are not the same with those combined for other ends as aforesaid . Therefore neither the Pastors nor Peoples Relation , and consequently the Churches , is not of the same sort . 3. Where there are distinct Fundamenta vel rationes fundandi , there are distinct Relations : But here are distinct fundamenta , &c. The fundamentum is , 1. Principall , which is Institution ( Divine or Humane . ) 2. Subordinate , which is Consent : Viz. 1. Of a Minister to gather Churches , Consensus duplex Dei & Ministri . 2. Of a Minister to guide Churches gathered , Consensus triplex & plerumque quadruplex ; viz. 1. Dei . 2. Ordinati . 3. Populi . 4. Plerumque Ordinantis . If any of these vary , the Fundamentum relations doth so far vary ; were it not tedious I would shew , you how much difference there is in all these . But it is the first Reason , that being most edent , I most insist on .

Now your Reason to the contrary ( for your Affirmative ) is , that Gradus non variat speciem . To which my Answer being , that Quando variat aut finem proximum , seu terminum , vel fundamentum , vel relatum correlatum , variat relationis speciem . But frequently Gradus materiae , variat finem proximum fundamentum , &c. Ergo , & speciem . The Major needeth no proof ; the Minor I cleared by the instance of a Ship , a Church , a Spoon , &c. where magnitude or parvity can make this difference . You tell me Relatives do not suscipere magis & minus . Answ. The clean contrary is an usual Maxim with Logicians : But that is so plain that it needs no dispute ; viz. Quoad subjectum ( & fundamentum aliquando ) & materiam correlati ; It may be found in divers degrees , but not in degrees of matter uncapable of the End and Form : But the forma Relativa doth not so vary ; one is not magis vel minus haec relatio , than another . But if you will extend this to the Matter of the Subject , which is our Case , you do but ( though mistakingly ) give away your Cause : For then every new Member maketh a new Church in specie , ( when you say ) [ This is only in respect of quantity ; ] You know that Aristotle saith , That Quantity non suscipit magis & minus , and so his Interpreters say , speaking strictly and not laxly : Therefore it 's this you must mean as I do , while you would say something that we may seem to differ . I told you , that different quantities in the subject may change the relations , which I think never man denied that understood what a Relation was . And you feign me to say simply [ That Magis & minus variant speciem in relatives : ] That you may have occasion to say as I said , under pretence of contradicting the same thing . But to my Instances , you say , That it is enough for your purpose that there is not a specifick difference between a little Spoon or Diocess , and a great one . ] Answ. Say you so ; our Question is , Whether different Degrees in the subject may vary the species of Relations ? Either you deny it , or you do not : If you do , common Experience and Reason will shame your denial . I instanced in a Spoon , a Church , a Troop , Regiment , Army , a Ship , &c. Wheresoever the finis proximus ( as in all Offices and Societies ) is essential to the Relation , there no man of Logical acquaintance can make a doubt of it , but that certain Quantities or Degrees in the Subject may be so over great or over small , as to be uncapable of that End , and consequently of the Relation . I will not censure you to be so ignorant as to doubt of it ; and if I do not , you force me to judge you so heedless or partial as to say something towards the hiding of that truth which you do not doubt of : I say , that Degrees in the Subject or Correlate vary not the Species , but when they vary the specifying end : some Relations are founded only in Actions past ; as Pater & filius in Generation , Creator & creaturae in Creation : And there the end following is not essential . But it is otherwise with those Relations which consist in an Authority , Obligation , undertaking of a future work , ( as a Teacher , Physician , &c. ) where the Work as undertaken is the essential end . And you had here no better a shift then to dissemble in silence the other Instances ; and to tell me , that [ a great Spoon and a little one differ not specie : ] But doth that prove , that it may be in specie a Spoon , if if be as big as a Ship , or in specie a Ship , if it be no bigger than a Spoon : Since you perceive your own deceit , which is by transferring the Question , are ad nomen , and then by choosing Instances de nomine , where the Name is never used generically , but only for one species . The name of a Spoon is never taken for a Ship , & contra : And therefore to say , that a little Spoon and a greater differ not speeie , is but to say , that the same species is the same , as being found in a capable degree of subject . But a Society , a Church , yea a Diocess , are names ( generical or analogous ) which may be and are applyed to various Species . The universal Church headed by Christ , is no more of the same species with a particular Church , than a Kingdom , and a Corporation in that Kingdom are . I use not words to hide things , but to render them intelligible . A thousand Schools combined under a general Schoolmaster , or an hundred Colledges making up one Academy , are not of the same species with one School , and one Colledge , though in the great remote end they both agree . But you fly to that poor shift of bidding me take heed of absurd and ridiculous Suppositions , not argumentative , &c. ] As if you had shewed any absurdity in these Suppositions : Or as if plain undeniable Instances had no place in Arguments or Answers , but were ridiculous Suppositions ; and he that would say , that a Kingdom is greater than a Family , and the King than a Master or Major , used a ridiculous Supposition . Just thus the poor Nonconformists are perswaded by your Pithonalogy , to subscribe , swear , &c. But I seem ( you say ) to assert this my self , by saying , there is a small difference between Bishop Usher's Model and the present . ] Answ. It 's tedious disputing with one that must have still another Writing to help him to understand that which he will first confute , yea and seemeth not willing to understand . It is a fallacy , A dicte secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter : I only askt you , What Farthing doth it take from their Estates ? What Title from their Honour , Power , Negative voice : ( even their Lordships and Parliament places . ) But is this the Question ? We then laboured to satisfie the unsatisfied Ministers , that not only Bishop Usher's Reduction , but even the King's Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs , had changed the very species of Prelacy without any of those Abatements . If you would know , it is by one word [ Consent ] restoring the inferiour Pastors and Churches , though not to their Integrals , yet to their Essentials . And we were so inclinable to Conformity , that on that supposition we had Conformed , had but that Declaration stood : ( though some of the Sects are of another mind , whom you Arguments would confirm : ) For we judge , that a Bishop of one only Church consisting of five hundred or a thousand Chappels or Congregations that are strictly no Churches ( as having no Bishops ) doth specifically differ from a Bishop of a thousand Churches , which have every one their proper Bishop , and so he is truly an Archbishop or General Bishop . But I am not to trouble you with this .

And now how impertinent was it , to bid me [ Rub up my Philosophy about Maximum quod sic & minimum quod non . ] Know you not , that the common use of those Writers are to intimate the same thing that I am saying against you ; That there is a subjective maximum & minimum , which only are capable of the relative form ? But I am next turned to Vossius de invoc . sanct . of which he hath there disputed , and one Histor. Thes . and I am not told which ( of them ) but the words are in the first Thes. 49. to prove that the Saint in Heaven and those on Earth make one Society : [ Quare cum nihil obstat quo minus unius civitatis cives dicamur , nec causae quicquam erit , quo minus aeque civilis honos dicatur , qui civibus coelestibus exhibetur , quam qui civibus terrenis : Nam grad● quidem honores isti differunt , sed uterque tamen est 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . ] And was it possible that you should think that this made for you ? Because the world or Universe of Rationals are one Body or Society , and so civil honour is the same thing as such in genere to them in Heaven as to them on Earth : doth it follow that in this universal Society there are no Kingdoms , Cities , or Families specifically different ? Nor no different species of the civil honour , what not to Kings , Parents , Masters ? What a thing is factions Interest ? Vossius only proveth Generical Identity of civil honour , and the specifical difference of it from the honour of Religious Adoration . The Church universal is one ; and the love and honour which we owe to the Saints in Heaven and Earth is Generically of the same kind . But do you believe therefore that there are no subordinate Species of Churches and Honour on Earth ? What not the Honour due to the King , the Bishop , the Chancellor , the Parish Curates , the Deacons , and the Beggars . Yet all this with you are Premises sufficient to conclude . [ And then it may be you may give leave to — Magis & minus non variant speciem , to be a Maxim still ] See what Evidence it is that must perswade us to Nonconformity . Are they not worthy to be silenced and branded as you have done , that can resist such Light ? But you come to the quick , and say , [ Is there no Communion but personal ? Answ. Yes , else they could not be two ends to make two Societies . You add , [ Many of the Kings Subjects never saw his face , yet they have many Hands and Eyes in respect of their subordinate Officers , so have Diocesans in their Curates . ] Answ. Very true ! And that proveth that a Kingdom is one Society , and a whole Diocess also one : Ignoras Elenchum . But doth that prove that there are no subordinate Societies in these ? Which though subordinate in point of Power , yet specifically differ . Is there no such thing as Personal Communion in presence , because there is such a thing as distant Communion of another sort ? For all that your terms of Hands and Eyes would hide it , I scarce think you are ignorant , that under the King there are Heads as well as Hands and Eyes : Heads of Families , Schools , Colledges , Universities , Corporations , Cities , who are constitutive parts of real Societies , which are not of the same species with a Kingdom , though in it . And if Archbishops be of God's appointment , so it should be with Archbishops and Bishops , and every Church should have a Bishop . But if you will not have it so , but we must only have a Bishop and Curates , and a Diocesan Church and Chappels , you betray our Cause to the Brownists , who easily prove [ No Bishop or Pastor , no Church in sensu politico : ] And so when you have granted them that we have no true Parish Churches , there are few of them whose Wit is so weak as not to disprove the pretended right of such Diocesan Churches as consist of the Carkasses of many hundred mortified Parish Churches .

§ . 50. My Answer I must not repeat , take it how you will : you here come to the very Controversie , I will not begin it with you , because I cannot prosecute it : I have so much to say on it , as at these rates may engage you and me in dispute for many years , if we lived so long : which I find no reason allowing me to undertake . Get me leave to Write and Publish it , and I will write you a just Volume of it , since it is published : till then I again tell you , I have said enough ( though too negligently ) in my Dispute of Church Government ; ( though one hath nibled at the Forms of some Arguments in it : ) If you would have more , answer Gers . Bucer , Parker , and Baine , Ames's fresh Suit , to name no other .

§ . 50. I shewed the invalidity , 1. Of your [ Licitis & honestis . ] 2. And of former Obedience , sub poena anathematis , as nothing to our case in hand ; and do you deny what I said , and disprove it . 2. I tell you , that so far as Bishops or Chancellors are the Kings Officers to Govern the Church circa sacra by the Sword , we will swear and perform Obedience to them under the King , in licitis & honestis . But I told you , they that take them for the Usurpers of Spiritual power , will easily prove it to be lawful to swear Obedience to Usurpers in licitis & honestis ; will you deny that . 3. And I told you that it is another Oath that is imposed on us to take . But did you well to say , You produced the words of Ignatius , to prove the antiquity of swearing to Bishops , who saith not a syllable of any such thing ? And untruly say , I took no notice of it , when I told you that Ignatius mentioned not Oaths , but only actual Obedience . This is no notice with you : But do you not know how late it was before swearing Obedience to Bishops came into the Church , and by what sort of men , and to what end and effect .

§ . 52. Your talk of Cartwright confirmeth me of the vanity of the Hypocrites reward , the praise of men ; there being nothing so false which may not by some men be said of them with boldest confidence . If Cochleus or his like , do but say , That Luther learned of the Devil ; that Calvin was a stigmatized Sodomite , &c. all their Followers can ever after say , It is in Print . So Mr. S. P. ( some body ) Printed this you say . And Heylin saith , He promised . What ? just the same , or to the same sense , as I told you , I voluntarily subscribed , when I might ( by the Kings Declaration ) have chosen , meerly because I would have them know our minds and peaceable resolutions . I told you why he that can promise to live peaceably , &c. cannot subscribe and swear the Approbation of all in that Liturgy , Government , &c. which he liveth peaceably under . But this is nothing to you ; if Cartwright Conformed , first , Prove it by credible History . 2. Why then could the great Earl of Leicester procure no more liberty for him , than an Hospital in Warwick , and no Church . 3. I have lived in Coventry , and been oft in Warwick , and know by all credible testimony of Neighbours , that it 's false , and no such thing as his Conformity was there dream'd of , any further than I Conform . 4. Why did he never declare it to the World , nor retract his Writings . 5. Your Heylin's own words intimate the contrary ; ( though I must tell you , I owe as little belief to that Book of his , as most Histories written by sober Protestants . ) But you say much more , [ Dr. Burges , p. 377. observed , That Cartwright opposed the Ceremonies as Inconveniences , but not as unlawful , and therefore perswaded men to Conform rather than leave their Flocks . ] Answ. 1. But the Ceremonies are but part , and the lesser part of Conformity . 2. Else had all Conformity been here included , he was still a Conformist : And how could you then say , That at last he wrangled himself into Conformity , if he was such at first ? 3. But if you cite him truly , be judge your self , whether Hoylin said true ; and what will be your case if you will report all that you find such men report . 1. Dr. Burges's own words are but these , pag. 423. [ The consideration of this necessity moved Mr. Cartwright to advise the wearing of the Surplice ; and Mr. Beza to resolve for the use of these Ceremonies , rather than the Flocks of Christ should be forsaken for these . ] And he citeth Cart. Repl. 2. So that here is not a word of Cartwright's Concession in any thing but the Surplice , ( kneeling he was for . ) The Answer of Amesius to his Father-in-law Burges , is in these words ; ( Fresh suit , p. 21 , 22. ) [ Whereas he addeth , that Beza and Mr. Cartwright determined with them in case of the Surplice . I answer , 1. They did not so for the Cross . 2. They did not so for subscription to either . 3. They did not so but by way of toleration , requiring also that men speak against the imposing of the Surplice . 4. Beza was not throughly acquainted with the state of our Church . Mr. Cartwright , as I have been certainly informed by his own Son , recalled that Passage of his Book , and desired that his revoking of it might be made known . ] Then followeth the Attestation of another to that report . Do you see now how credibly S. P. Heylin and you report Cartwright to have wrangled himself at last into Conformity : Be warned , and take up false reports no more .

§ . 53. I thank you for shortning my trouble .

§ . 54. [ Waspish , and faltering , and raging , after a tedious journey . ] Are your Logicks above my skill to answer ? But adrem , 1. It is a wonder to me that an Englishman should be in doubt who they be that drive men from the Parish Churches ? Enquire who drave away the People of Kederminster ? Did I ? I Preach'd , I Printed long before . That should the Liturgy be restored , it were no sufficient cause , &c , When I was silenced and might not Preach in publick , the last Sermon that ever I preached to some at my Farwel in a private House , was in conclusion to perswade all to keep to the publick Churches , where the Ministers are not notoriously Insufficient as to the very Essentials , or notorious Hercticks , or Malignant Opposers ( not of differing Parties , but ) of the certain Practice of Godliness it self . But when I had done my best then , and since by other means , the Reading Vicar , and one Sermon of the Bishops , and one of the Deans , and many of a Lecturers after , and they saw so many hundred Ministers silenced , it possessed them with so great a prejudice , that till a good Minister came among them , it was past my power to reconcile them to the Church ; nor is it done so fully as before I could easily have done .

2. As to your second Questien , When I told you how hardly the People would be driven t● Communion in your way : You answered , Ha● they not been distracted , distorted , poysoned by other Tutors . — But since they have been taught , like Wolves not to value the Scepter , — like Mastiff-dogs they will worry me to pieces . Those that are lately perverted any way , are most heady and ●ierce . The Revolters are profound to make slaughter : And after the Scribes and Pharisees compassed Sea and Land to make a Proselyte , when he was made , he was twofold more the Child of Hell than themselves : ] These are your words : And I thought I had used them very gently , when I only say , [ Whether all such Dissenters are such Children of Hell as you describe . ] ( I might have added , such Wolves , Dogs , &c. ) I shall leave to a more wise and righteous Judge , what is in these words ! Be impartial one hour before you die , and compare them with your own , and think how he that will say at last , [ Inasmuch as you did it not to one of the least of these my Brethren , &c. ] will take all these Revilings of faithful Souls . But how heedlesly do you read ? I said , [ All such Dissenters as you described , and were talkt of . ] And you say , [ all Dissenters . ] There is no end at this rate of calling you again to read what you write against . I excuse no mans faults : But I will not be one of those Nurses that will cast the Children out of the house when ever they cry or wrangle , till I find it pleaseth our Father , and till I know where to have better enow in their rooms : Nor will I call them Wolves and Dogs , that for fear of sinning against God dare not do as I do , and too precisely wrangle with me when I urge them to it : And if their narrow throats cannot swallow so big Morsels as the Nurse can , but will cry and strive when it is cram'd down by force , I will not cut their Throats to widen the passage ; nor stretch Conscience , till like a crakt Bladder it will hold nothing : Nor with Ithacius , get the worst on my side as my Flocke , and bring the strictest under suspicion and reproach , because they are angry with me . And what now your Calumniare fortiter signifieth , Review .

§ . 55. The matter of this I have answered . The Flowers of [ Flood-gates Torrents , Dragons Scum , Raca , &c. I leave unanswered , because you would have brevity : But if you would have brevity , you should not make work for prolixity , unless you bespeak me to forbear answering you . But I know not how better to spare your trouble and my own , than to tell you , that I expect or desire no answer from you to all this that I have written ; And if you do send me one , I will not promise you a Reply . I like the Work as little as you do : And for the matter and manner of my Writings , I do ( as one that daily expecteth , ( and long have done ) a speedy passage into a more holy , wise , righteous , and peaceable World ) Protest to you , that as I have not been for forty years at least the most negligent Searcher after Truth , nor the coldest Desirer of it ; but have I think Impartially laboured to know it , without adhering to any Sect , ( at least these 25 years ; ) so I do defend nothing which I am perswaded is the Truth ; nor oppose any other mens ways , but what I think my Fidelity to God , his Church , and Truth obligeth me to oppose . If you be in the right and I in the wrong , it is because you have a more blessed understanding , and not because I have been less studious , or desirous to know the truth than you . And I confess my Temper and Style is sharp ; and Verba rebus aptanda , is a Motto that Quoad dispositionem was born with me , and maketh me oft forbear that pleasing style , which should be fitted to the persons , though unsuitable to the thing . But I write in hast , and suit all my Answers just to the matter before me , not considering sufficiently how men can bear it . I justifie none of this ; and I unfeignedly desire you to pardon all Passages , which you shall truly find to transgress the Rules of Christian lenity : For if I be angry I would not sin ; but I am not conscious of wrath or disaffection when I speak most eagerly . But I must needs tell you that had this writing been for the view of the World , I would have forborne most of that freedom which in plainess I have used to you , but being only for your self I remembred L●v. 19. 17. which I need not recite : being confident that you have much wronged your bretheren by the Book which you have written . Which I impute ( with all the rest of our divisions , violences and calamities ) to wa●● of acquaintance and familiarity with each other ; each party conversing familiarly only with those of their own mind , and iudging falsly of their neerest Neighbours as of real strangers , by thereports of factious men . For I do not remember that I ever yet had reall acquaintance with any man in my Life , that I did not live in Love and Peace with . But all my reproaches , accusations , and sufferings , have come from men that know me not ( unless by a few publick interviews . ) And I do faithfully endeavour to defend behind their backs , the just Honour and Reputation of the Bishops and Conformists , as well as of the Nonconformists , being not for factious Calumny against either . Nor am so sharp in my censures , as your moderate Erasmus was against such Bishops as he then of London , that would have persecuted Dr. Colet , ( the Bishop being a learned Scotist , ) who , as Mr. Thomas Smith translateth him in the Life of Dr. Colet , saith , [ of which sort of men I have known some that I WOULD NOT CALL KNAVES , but I never knew one , whom I COULD CALL a CHRISTIAN . There be some that judge just thus of the ( not unwilling Conformists , but ) the eager promoters and defenders of it among the Clergy , ( that are not our superiours . ) But so do not I , but reprove their censoriousness ; though I must needs confess , while I fear being of a party , I fear not being one that differeth from ungodly formal Hypocrites , and that I find very great difference in point of serious piety between parties . And if in my Youth I did incline more to one party than another , it was only on the supposition that they were more spiritual , practical , and devoted to God , ( on which account I hope I shall still value them ) though even then Schism was , and now much more is , a thing which I abhorr ; but take not those to be the least promoters of it , who most accuse their brethren of it , being just of Hales's mind in that treat of Schism . And for former complyances , &c. ( you were acquainted at Co●sold , Sir Robert Pyes , Mr. Twisse's , &c. ) consider whether of us it is that needeth no Retractation : A word to the wise is enough . Having some information of your former life , I may very easily say , that as great a noise as you now make for Conformity , and against the late Usurpers , I did much more against them than you did in my Ministry ; and my danger from them was not a denial of a richer living ( which I never sought ) but for open opposing their usurpation , engagementdaies of thanksgiving for unjust victories , &c. I add this but to mind you that some men by reproaching others , do doubly reproach themselves , and that consciousness of their proper case should make men speak as they would hear .

〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. look diligently into the Scriptures which are the true Oracles of the Holy Ghost : learn that in them is contained nothing unjust , or fained , or counterfeit . For you shall not find that the just were rejected by holy men . The just suffered persecution , but from the ungodly . They were cast into prison , but by the Profane ; they were stoned , but by the unrighteous and transgressours of the Laws : They were extinct , but by the wicked and such as were pricked with unjust envy against them . Clemens . Roman . ad Corinth .

Reader , remember that this was written only for Mr. Hinkleys sight , if he had so pleased .

FINIS .

RICHARD BAXTERS second Account to Mr. John Cheney of his Judgment , accused by him of Atheism , subverting all Religion , Christianity , the Gospel , the Church , all Government , Introducing Popery , &c. Especially for asserting , 1. That Christ hath Instituted one Universal Church , of which he onely is the Head ; and particular Churches as parts of it , of which the Pastors are Subordinate Heads or Governours , and so formally differenced . 2. That neither of them is Constituted without some signification of consent : which he never before heard one Christian deny .

CHAP. I. PREFATORY .

§ 1. COntending though Defensive , and made necessary by Accusers , is an unpleasant work : As I would choose a Prison before a Defensive War , were it for no greater interest than my own ; so I would choose to be in Print proclaimed an Heretick , Schismatick , Atheist , or any thing , rather than be at the unpleasing labour of a Confutation of all Accusers , were it not for a higher interest than mine : For though we must contend for the Faith , yet the servant of the Lord must not needlesly strive , 2 Tim. 2. 24 , 25. And experience tells us , the good seldome answereth the bad effects .

§ 2. And there are few that call me to a publick Account , that I answer less willingly than Mr. Cheney : because his Accusations are such gross Mistakes , that I cannot Answer them in the gentlest manner , according to truth , without opening that which will bring him lower in the Readers esteem than I desire ; and I much fear , will be to himself a temptation which he will hardly overcome , as I see by this his 2d Book . Had he that was my familiar Neighbour thought meet to have spoken with me , before his Publications , I am past doubt that I could have convinced him of multitudes of Untruths and Errours , so as to have prevented such a publication of them ; for in private he would easilier have born the detection of them , than in the hearing of the World , ( which he has chosen . ) But whereas some cast away his Book , as a fardel of Dotage and shameless Lyes , I must remember such , that I am confident he wrote no falshoods with a purpose knowingly to deceive ; and therefore they are not strictly Lyes , but as rash untruths are such in a larger sense , which ignorant men assert for want of due tryal . It is a great errour to over-value such poor frail ignorant men as we all are : Mr. Ch. and I have both over-valued one another ; and this errour now we have both escaped , but not laid by our Christian love . And as God will not take Mens Diseases for their Sins , his bodily temper is to me a great excuse of his strong confident mistakes .

§ 3. The very Introductory Preface of his Books disowning Cruelty and uncharitable dividing Impositions , enableth me to forgive him the multitude of rash untruths and slanders : and instead of a Mentiris , I shall put but a Putares or Non-putares .

I have just such a task in dealing with Mr. Ch. as with one that is hard of hearing : when I speak to such a one , that heareth but one half , and mis-heareth the rest , he answereth me as he heard : and when I tell him his mistake , his last reply is [ I thought you had said thus and thus : ] but if I should dispute a whole day with such a man , I should be sharply censured if I printed the Dispute , and told the World how many hundred times the man mis-heard , and so mistook me . And I fear neither he himself , nor the Reader that valueth his time , would thank me for such exercise of my Arithmetick with Mr. Cheney .

§ 4. For his Preface I thank him : It tells me , that all our Accusers do it not in meer Malignity : and that he hath a few steps further to tumble , before he come to the bottom of the hill . His Book consisteth partly of a handsome considerable discourse for Prelacie , and other Church-Offices of Humane Invention ; and partly of a new & singular Doctrine about Church-Forms ; & partly in a critical discharge of his fancy , and unpacking his preparations against the Independant Covenant , and Church-Form ; and partly in detecting my many Atheistical , Infidel , Impious Errours , by which he supposeth I am deceiving the world ; and partly n a multitude of falshoods of me ( and others ) in matter of fact ; and partly ( I hope an ignorant ) plea for the Pope . To open all these fully , would tire the Reader and me .

CHAP. II. What the Doctrine is which he accuseth of Atheism , Impiety , &c.

§ 1. THE Reader that hath well perused my Writings knoweth it : but I cannot expect that all should do so that read his Book . The abstract is this .

I. That Jesus Christ is Head over all things to the Church , Eph. 1. 22 , 23.

II. That the Mosaical Law , as such , never bound other Kingdoms , and is ceased , with their Commonwealth , and is abrogated by Christ , and that he as King of the Church , hath established a sufficient Law for all that is universally necessary for Doctrine , Worship , and Church-order or Government : and was faithful in all his house as Moses , and Commissioned his Apostles to Disciple Nations , Baptizing them and teaching them what Christ himself had commanded them , Matth. 28. 19.

III. That he setled the Ministry and Church-Form before he made any Magistrate Christian , and that no Magistrate hath power to change them .

IV. That what his Apostles did by his Commission and Spirit , he did by them .

V. That Church-Forms being so Instituted and Constituted , he hath not left them so much to the will of Man , as he hath done the Forms of Civil Government .

VI. That Christ hath One Universal Church , of which he is the onely Head and Law-giver , and no Vicar personal or collective , as one Political person or power : of which professed believers and consenters in Baptism are the visible Members , and sincere Believers and Consenters the Spiritual saved Members .

VII . That the World and Church are not all one ; nor Heathens and Infidels the same with Christians , nor any parts of the Church properly called .

VIII . That Christs Ministers first work to which they were Commissioned , was not on the Church or any Member of it , but the Infidel world to gather them into a Church ; and the first Baptized person was not Baptized into a pre-existent Church ; but the Church existing , Baptism entereth men into it .

IX . That the first Baptizer was no Pastor of such an existent Church , but an Organical Minister to gather a Christian Church .

X. That though at Baptism one may enter into the Universal and a particular Church , yet Baptisme qua talis entereth us onely into the Universal , being our Christening or Covenant-uniting to the body of Christ .

XI . That a Pastor in the Scripture and usual sense , is a Relate to Oves the Sheep or Flock , and not to Infidels : And a Ministry to Infidels , and an Episcopacy or Pastorship of the flock , are different notions : but if any will use the terms otherwise , we contend not de nomine , though you call him a Pastor of Infidels , or what else you can devise .

XII . To explain my self , when I mention a Bishop or Pastor , I mean the Bishop or Pastor of a Church : and I take not Heathens for the Church .

XIII . I believe that in this Universal Church are thousands of particular Churches , and this by Christs Institution .

XIV . I believe that there is no particular Church or Christian on earth , who is not ( respectively as Visible or Mystical ) a part of the Universal Church .

XV. As every worshipping Assembly is a Church in a larger sense , so a Church in a political sense is essentially constituted of the Pastor and People , or the Sacerdotal guiding and the guided parts : and of such a Church it is that I am speaking .

XVI . As such meeting in transitu are an Extemporate transient Church , so fixed Cohabitants ought to be a Church accordingly fixed , related to each others as such for longer than the present meeting .

XVII . Every such Political fixed Church , should consist of a Pastor ( at least ) accordingly fixed , to a cohabiting people , and as their Pastor more specially related by obligation and authority to them , than to strangers or neighbour Churches . He is not bound to do that for all , as he is for them , nor may go into other Pastors Churches with equal power , nor officiate where he please .

XVIII . If there be no Church but the Universal , than there is neither Parochial , Diocesan , or National , nor are Assemblies Churches . Nor is our King the Royal Governour of any Church : for of the Universal he is not .

XIX . Christian Princes must do their best to settle faithful Pastors in all Churches , that is , according to the Laws of Christ , but not against them . But as they must do their best that all their Subjects may have good Phycisians , Schoolmasters , Wives , or Husbands , Servants , Dyet , Cloathing , &c. but yet are not trusted by office to choose all these for every one , and impose them on Dissenters , because the same God that made Kingly power , did first make personal and paternal power , which Kings cannot dissolve : so every man is so nearly concerned for his own Salvation , more than for Wife , Servant , Dyet , Phycisian , &c. that though he must thankfully accept of all the Rulers lawful help , he is still the most obliged chooser . Nor is it any part of the office of a King , to choose and impose on every Subject a Guide or Pastor , to whom only he shall trust the Pastoral conduct of his Soul , any more than a Physician or a Tutor for him .

XX. Parish-bounds are not of Primitive or Divine Institution : but cohabitation or propinquity is a needful qualification of setled Members , gratia finis : And Parish-bounds are a useful humane determination , according to the general Rules , Do all to edification and in order .

XXI . No one is a Church-member merely because he dwelleth in the Parish ; for unbaptized Infidels , Heathens , Atheists , may dwell there .

XXII . Nor is a stranger a Church-member for coming into the Assembly ; for such , as aforesaid , or Jews , Mahometans , may come in .

XXIII . A Pastor oweth more care and duty to his flock , than to the rest of the world ( as a Physician to his Hospital . ) Therefore he must know who they are , better than by knowing that they dwell in the Parish ; nor may he Baptize them , or give them the Lords Supper , only because he seeth them in the Assembly or in the Parish : else Jews and Heathens must have it .

XXIV . Nor is he to give it to every one that demandeth it : for so may Jews and Heathens , that take it in scorn , or for by-ends .

XXV . Yet a Christian having a valid Certificate that he is such , hath right to transient Communion with any Church of Christ where he cometh : but for order , the antient Churches used not to receive them without some Certificates from the Churches that they came from , lest Hereticks and Excommunicates , unknown persons , should be every where received .

XXVI . No man can be an ( adult ) Christian without signified consent : nor a stated member of any particular Church , without such consent : no , nor a lawful transient Communicant without consent . For so great benefits none but consenters have right to , nor can such relations be otherwise contracted .

XXVII . Consent not signified nor known , is none to the Church .

XXVIII . A man may be obliged to consent that doth not : but that makes no man a Christian or member of the Universal Church ; else Millions of Infidels and Heathens are Christians ; And so it maketh no one a member of a particular Church , that he is obliged to be one : nor am I a Pastor over any men as a Church , because they are obliged to take me for their Pastor , no more than that is a Husband , Wife , Servant , who is obliged to be so , and will not . To say that I am a Pastor to Heathens as a Church , is a contradiction : or that I am their Pastor as my special Christian flock , and particular Church-members that consent not .

XXIX . But the same man that liveth among such , may be to consenting Christians a Pastor ; and to Refusers , Infidels , or Heathens , a Teacher . The Church ever distinguished the Audientes and Catechumene Candidates , from the Fideles , who were the Members of the Church .

XXX . No Pastor or people should impose any Covenant on any adult to be Christened , but consent to be Christians signified by Baptism ; nor on any in order to transient Communion among strangers , but just notice of their Christianity and understanding consent to that Communion : nor on any in order to their being the stated Members of this or that flock and particular Church , but due notice of their Christianity , and of their understanding consent to what is essential to such members ; that is , to the relation as essentiated by the correlate and ends .

XXXI . No one should be obliged by covenant to continue one year or Month in the station of that particular relation : because they know not when Gods providence may oblige them to remove or change it .

XXXII . Though the Peoples consent be necessary to their relation , their Election of the Pastor ( which signifieth the first determination who shall be the man ) is not absolutely necessary , though of old so thought . An after-Consent may serve ad esse relationis .

XXXIII . Much less is it necessary that the people choose who shall be ordained a Minister unfixed , and only of the Universal Church .

XXXIV . 1. Mutual consent of the duely qualified Ordained and Ordainer , determineth who shall be a Minister in the Church Universal ; as consent of the Colledge and the Candidate do who shall be the Licensed Physician . 2. The Peoples consent and the Ministers instituted , determine who shall be the Pastor of this particular Flock or Church . 3. The King determineth whom he will tolerate , countenance and maintain .

XXXV . Though a man may be Ordained but once to the Ministry unfixed in the Universal Church , ( to which I said the Peoples consent is not necessary ) yet may he be oft removed from one particular Church to another , on just cause , to which the peoples consent ( if not Election ) is still necessary . Though to avoid Ambition , the old Canons forbad Bishops to remove .

XXXVI . It 's lawful to be ordained sine titulo only to the Ministry in general ; but in settled Churches it is usually inconvenient : And he that is ordained to a fixed Church , doth at once become a Minister in the universal Church ( and may act as a Minister , and not as a Layman , when called elsewhere ) and also a fixed Minister of a particular Church ; even as he that is baptized into a particular Church , is a member of both : Though Baptism and Ordination qua tales enter but into the Universal .

XXXVII . It is not this or that mode of signification of consent that is necessary to either relation of Pastor or Flock ; but Consent signified intelligibly : where Laws and Custome order it that actual ordinary attendance in publick worship and communion , and submission to necessary ministration , shall be the signification , all that so do express consent by it . And therefore our ordinary Parish-Assembling and Communion , being express consent to the mutual relation , have that which is necessary ad esse to true Churches ; and they slander them that say , they are not such . But ad melius esse more may oft-times be profitable ; 1. Because that is the best means , which is best fitted to the end : But the end of Signes being Notification , that is , caeteris paribus , the best which is most notifying ; as that is the best Language which is most significant and intelligible . Why should playing in the dark , or dealing under-board , be preferred in the greatest things ? 2. It oft falls out , that some that live in the Parish are known Church-Papists , Church-Atheists & Infidels , & will tell in their meetings to their companions , [ I believe not the words of the Parish-Priest : It is his Trade to talk for gain : I will do what the Law requires of me , for my safety ; but I will have no more to do with him , nor do I take him for a true Pastor , that hath any Authority but by Law , nor for any Pastor to me . ] And 3. there are many Hereticks and Schismaticks , engaged Members of other Churches ; who yet to avoid suffering , will do that in the Parish-Church , which the Law requireth . 4. And the Antient Churches used express Consent , yea and Election . So for the Minister ; he is no Pastor without his signified consent : but actual Ministration may be such a signification . This is enough to reconcile the difference about Church-covenants .

XXXVIII . They that rail against a more express consent in cases truly dubious , as if it were tyranny and destructive to Christianity , do suppose that if the King and Law commanded such a thing they commanded Tyrannically that which destroyeth Christianity ; and contradict themselves when they say that Rulers may make various orders of Church-governours , and determine of undetermined Modes .

XXXIX . As it is not needful and usual to set up a Coordinate Imperium artificum vel Philosophorum in Imperio Civili ; so it seemeth also of an Imperium Religiosum . The first Question is , whether Christ hath Instituted such : The second , whether he hath given power to Men to make it . There is not in any Kingdom that I hear of , ( but somewhat towards it in China ) such a Society of Physicians , Astronomers , Navigators , Lawyers , Schoolmasters , Philosophers , &c. who set up a Co-ordinate Empire or Government , that shall have all degrees of self-governing power as a National Socity , with one Supreme , either Monarchical , Aristocratical , or Democratical Head , according to the order of Civil-government : Nor doth any reproach Schools , Colledges , Hospitals , or any trading Societies , that they are confused , Independent , and ungoverned , because they have no common Governour but God and the King , nor any particular Governour , but the Principal , or Master and Fellows of the Society ; nor any National association , besides their subjection to one King , and their voluntary correspondence for concord and mutual assistance with one another . And much less is there any Co-ordinate , Political Regiment of any of these through all the world , under one visible humane Head , personal or collective . And yet many think that there is such a Society and Regiment for Religion ; National say some , Universal say others : That all that will serve God and be saved , must be under one Co-ordinate power over all the Kingdom , or World , besides Christ and the Supreme Magistrate : and they contend whether this power be Monarchical or Aristocratical , &c. I am so far Independent , as to think that Christ hath Instituted no such Universal or National Power and Head of Religion : but that 1. his own Universal Kingdom : 2. And particular Churches under their several Bishops and Teachers : 3. And Synods for concord and mutual help : 4. And Christian Magistrates to rule all by the Sword : 5. With the improvement of Mens eminent gifts and opportunities , that these be Instituted by Christ I doubt not : 6. And whether some should succeed the Apostles ( excepting their extraordinary powers ) in having a visiting , instructing , ordering care of many Churches and their Bishops and Teachers , I confess my self uncertain ; and therefore will never strive against such , nor deny due obedience to them , who shew a true call to such an employment . Nay , if Christ have made no such Institution ; yet 1. if the Christian Magistrate , 2. or the Churches by consent , choose some faithful Ministers to such a power , onely to direct , instruct , guide , admonish , reprove , exhort the Bishops and Teachers of the particular Churches , without any other force than the Apostles used , and not destroying any of their proper power and duty , or that Church-order which the Apostles setled ; I am no opposer of any such , though my uncertainty disables me from subscribing and swearing to the right of their Authority . The Scots themselves , even by Knox's consent , set up Super-intendents over many Churches ( John Spotswood Super-intendent of Lothian , and so others . ) And the power of a President , Principal or Rector of a Colledge of Physicians , Philosophers , or Divines , doth not make him of any other Order or species of Office and Profession than the rest . But if any affirm more than this , I will learn , but cannot yet swear or subscribe it .

XL. Those that are for the obligation of the Jewish order , I have fully spoke to in my first Plea for Peace . Those that are only for the power of man to make such several Orders or Ranks of Governours in the Church , as are in Armies , and Kingdoms , 1. Must tell us what sort of power may be given them : 2. And who must give it . And 1. No men can Institute a power of the same species , or another species from that which we call the Sacred Ministry , or as the Fathers , the Sacerdotal , but what is subordinate about the Accidentals of Religion and the Church . 1. Not the same species , because it is Instituted by God already : No Man can create a creature already created . 2. Not of another supra-ordinate or co-ordinate : for 1. they can prove no power given them to do it : 2. And that were to accuse Christ of insufficient doing his undertaken work , and being less faithful in his house than Moses : 3. And it will infer Mans introduction of a new co-ordinate Doctrine , Worship , or Religious Ministration : for the Ministration of the word and Sacraments , and Keys , is already appointed by Christ : And the Office or Order is specified by the work and terminus ; and a new Office hath new work . But in the same species of Religious Ministration , there are abundance of accidentals and circumstances ; and Princes or consenting Churches may give men power in those accordingly . But not to forbid what Christ commanded , nor destroy the works and power of his Institution . And if they that are for other superiour or co-ordinate species of Church-power , besides what is afore-granted , say that it is a lawful humane Ordinance : 1. Those that say , Princes only may make it , confess the Church had none that was lawful for three hundred years . And they must prove the Commission . 2. Those that say the Inferiour Bishops made it by consent ; 1. feign Inferiours to have power to make a power above their own , ( which is more than for Presbyters to ordain their like . ) 2. Why may not Archbishops then make Patriarks , and they a Pope , ad summum ascendendo ? 3. They must prove their power ; and that they are so far equal to Apostles , ( who yet were but to teach the Nations what Christ commanded them ; which these Men know not but by the Scripture . ) 4. What Man maketh , Man may unmake . And how came we to be less free than our Ancestors that made such Offices ?

XLI . In my Book of Concord where this is granted , yet I say , that let Church-Patriarchs , Metropolitans , Primates , Archbishops , or Diocesans , like ours that have no Bishops under them , be never so probably maintained to be lawful , yea , and desirable ; yet the uniting in them by consent and approbation , will never become the terms or way of Universal Concord , which I have fully proved ; even all that is true and good , will never be the terms of Universal Concord , nor just Christian Communion ; much less that which hath so much matter of doubt , and great suspition of evil . But I will live in Christian love , peace , and submission my self , on terms uncapable of common concord , or my own approbation of the things as imposed or done by all others .

XLII . Lay-Chancellours may do what belongeth to a Magistrate , but not use the Church-Keyes , nor be the Church-Judges of Mens Communion , because Christ hath Instituted the Sacred Office for it .

XLIII . A Church is Ens Politicum ( in the sense in hand ) and the form of it is Relative , in the predicament of Relation .

XLIV . The parts of the Universal Church are similar and dissimilar , more simple or more compound . And the word [ whole ] applyed to a part , disproveth not its being a part of the whole Christian world or Church . A whole hand , foot , head , &c. is part of a whole Body ; and a whole Body part of a whole Man , and a whole Man part of a whole Family , and a whole Family part of a whole street , and that of a whole City , and that of a whole County or Kingdom : A whole Colledge of a whole University , &c. All Members save Souls and Atomes , are compounds .

XLV . When we call all the Christian world [ The Catholick Church ] and call e. g. Hippo [ A or the Catholick Church ] the word [ Catholick ] and [ The ] are not univocal : In the later we mean only [ The Church at Hippo ] which holds the true Catholick Faith , and is a true part of the Catholick Church in the first sense . Penuria nominum necessaria reddit aequivoca .

XLVI . Particular Churches are Visible in the Regent and Governed parts : The Universal Church is Visible in the Governed part , and in the Head only , so far as he was once on Earth , and is now visible in Heaven ( his Court ) and will be visible at last to all , and ruleth by visible Laws ; but not as a Head now visible on Earth : nor is this any deformity to his Church , nor any reason why it may not be called Visible ; as I have fully proved in two Books against W. Johnson , alias Terret .

XLVII . Those that deny an Universal Visible Church , differ only de nowine , not de re : They only deny any Universal Regent power , Monarchical , or Aristocratical , or Democratical , under Christ ; but I know no Christian that ever denyed the fore-described .

XLVIII . Forma dat esse : Divers constitutive forms , or specifying differences , make divers Essences . Therefore the form of a Troop being the Captains Government , differs from the form of a Regiment , which is the Colonels Governing Relation , and both from the forms of the Army , which is the Generals . The formal Essence of a Colledge , is divers from that of an University ; and of a Family from a Corporation , or City ; and that from a Kingdom . And as forma dat nomen , they have divers names : A Family quatalis , is not a Kingdom , &c. Reader , forgive the mention of these things , which Children know , and till now I never read or heard any man deny or question . In that which followeth , you shall see the Reasons that excuse me .

CHAP. III. What Mr. Cheyney saith against these things : And 1. Of Church-Forms and Essence .

§ 1. THough it tempt me not to Conformity as the way of Concord , where I see the great difference of such as plead for it amongst themselves , yet I must do that right to the Conformists , as to tell the world that they must not be judged of by Mr. Ch 's opinions ; and that I know no other Conformist ( or Non-conformist ) of his mind about Church-Forms .

§ 2. But I must add , that his Case doth increase my Conviction against himself and them , that their Conformity is so far from being the necessary Cement , that it is utterly destructive of it , as so imposed : and that it must be on few plain necessary things , that common concord must be held , or we must have none . Mr. Ch. thinks me one who may be endured in the Ministry , and I think so by him ; and yet how far easier and plainer than our Controversies of Conformity , are those things in which we differ to the height of his following Accusations ? If none should be endured that cannot Covenant , Swear , Subscribe , Declare and Practice , as is required , how much less can such as he and I be endured in one Church , if we differ as he saith we do ? O what pardon and forbearance doth our peace require !

§ 3. Of Church-Forms and Essence , hear some of his Judgment .

Pag. 3. [ The several Congregations and Assemblies of Pastors and People throughout the Kingdom , are not limbs and parcels of a Church , but they are so many Churches — consisting of a Pastor Governing , and people governed , joyning together in publick worship — It is called [ the Church of England ] as all the Christian Pastors and people throughout the world , are called the Universal Church — One Church , of which Christ is the transcendent Head — I do not see but it is proper to call all the Christian Pastors and people of England — One Church . — P. 6. Christ is the Head of the Church of England , — and under Christ all the Parish-Ministers are subordinate Guides and Rulers of their Flocks respectively . — P. 7. Some are as Colonels of Regiments , others as Captains of Troops ; the Body is but One , the Members many . — P. 13. The New Testament saith , — The Churches of Galatia , Gal. 1. 2. the Churches of Judea , Asia , — Yet One body . — All the faithful make One heavenly City , — one Church of the first born ; — so that Gods Church on Earth is Many Churches , and yet but One Church . — ( Do you not think now that we are agreed ? But hear him judge himself . ) P. 15. I will shew one common Errour or mistake in multitudes of our able Divines , — That those we call particular Churches , are counted Parts and Members of the Church Universal . This I deny , — Mr. Baxter makes the Church of England , or the Churches of England , to be an integral part of the Church Universal , — as a Troop of an Army , or a City of a Kingdom . So the Independents . I overthrow this Errour by this Argument . One and the same thing cannot be both a Body and a Member , a whole and a part , a society and one single person . — But that which we call a single or particular Church , is not a Member but a Body ; it is not a limb or part of a Church , but a whole and entire Church , — It hath a whole within it . — London is not a Member of England , but a City and aggregation of Members . It 's no less than a flat contradiction in terms , — what Dr. Ames saith , Medul. l. 1. c. 32. that a particular Church est Membrum ex aggregatione variorum Membrorum singulorum compositum , contrary to common reason and plain Scripture . — P. 18. A bare Member in the Body hath no Authority , but acteth by mere natural life and appetite , and is not endued with rational authority , nor can be capable of any . — That which we call a single Church , is a Catholick or Universal Church . It hath an Universal Head . To be a Christian , is to be of an universal impartial spirit ; — where there is an All , there is an Universal . — But every single Church hath an All within it , the Pastor and all his flock . — The Church Universal and particular , do only differ as to place and number ; — A Church of godly Ministers and people in France , Holland , — and England , differ but as to place . — Every Church ( of Christians ) must needs be a Church Universal ; not a limb or member of another Church , but a true body , or entire Christian society . — P. 20. Christs Body is One : not as one is opposed to Multitude — but to division , contrariety , and destruction .

§ 4. P. 21. This leads me to shew the unsoundness of another part of Mr. Baxters Doctrine , and some others with him : He saith , [ There are two essentially different Policies or Forms of Church-Government of Christs Institution , never to be altered by man : 1. The Form of the Universal Church as Headed by Christ himself , which all Christians own as they are Christians , in their Baptism . 2. Particular Churches headed by their particular Bishops or Pastors , and are parts of the Universal , as a Troop of an Army , or a City of a Kingdom . — And he defines the Universal Church to be , The universality of Baptized Christians , headed by Christ himself . These his sayings contain many Errours ; I will first note them out , and then confute and prove them to be Errours . 1. It is an Errour in the art of defining , to put in those words , [ Headed by Christ himself . ] 2. It is another Errour to define the Universal Church without Guides and Ministers , as one essential constituent part . 3. It is another Errour to say , that the Universal Church , and Churches particular , differ essentially . 1. It is an Errour in the art of desining to say , — Headed by Christ himself ] that 's supposed , but need not be in the definition . He finds fault himself with such a defect in the definition of a particular Church . Grant them to be Christians , and you grant they own Christ . — 2. It is an Errour to define the Universal Church without Pastors , — So doth the Assemblies Confession , and Mr. Hudson — His definition of the Church without Pastors , is , as if he defined a living healthful man , without a stomach , liver or lungs . — P. 24. 3. If there be an essential difference between Church and Church , what then is the difference between the Church and the World ! Heaven and Hell ! the righteous and the wicked ! — How can any man know which is the right Church ? We shall never be able to confute Popery nor Infidelity by this Doctrine : For this Doctrine supposeth two essentially different Churches : The Universal Church without Pastors , and of this Christ is Head himself : Particular Churches , of which Christ is no Head , but particular Pastors are the Heads . — By this Doctrine the same thing shall be contrary to it self . — Christs Church in this world is but one ! And can one and the same thing have two different Essences , beings , and definitions ? Quae conveniunt uno tertio , &c. But the Church Universal and particular agree in uno tertio . They stand on one foundation , are directed by one rule , quickned by one spirit ; an addition of homogeneous Particles makes no essential difference . It will necessarily infer , that God is contrary to himself , and that the essentiating principles of Church holiness , order and government , are black and white , darkness and light , — P. 25. If this opinion stand , Religion cannot stand , Two essentially different Forms of Churches , will infer two sorts of Holiness , the one repugnant to the other , ( yet ) subordinata non pugnant . If Christ set up two repugnant , or essentially different Church-Forms , he is not the Saviour , but the deceiver of the world . ( O dreadful ! )

§ 5. P. 92. A word more ad hominem of that opinion , That particular Churches are parts of the Universal , as a Troop is of an Army , or a City of a Kingdom .

This is Mr. Baxters opinion : why then do you blame the turning all the Parish-Churches into Chappels , and making them to be but parts of the Diocesan , as a Troop is of an Army , &c. who sees not that your Doctrine doth the same that you condemn , &c. If they are but parts and Members of another Church , ( the Universal ) then they are not Churches . — It is not unlikely but you can find somewhat to say in defence of this your self-contradicting Doctrine ; but I believe it will match your wit , were it ten times more , and prove too hard for you . Look to it ; if your disputations against Prelacie stand , down goes this main assertion of yours . If your disputations against Prelacie be found to have a hollow and false bottom , then you have made you work for repentance , you have greatly injured the Church of God , and particularly the Church of England , and have deceived a great many . Look what Bellarmine maketh the Pope to be to all the Pastors , Churches , and Christians through the world , That do you make this which you call the Church Universal : for you say that particular Churches , as headed by their respective Bishops and Pastors , are parts and members of another Church called the Church Universal : By which assertion you set up an Universal Head or Government over all the Pastors , Churches , and Christians in the world besides Christ ; and you say this is of Divine Institution ; and you lay the concord of all the Churches upon it . Do but grant the Papists this one assertion , that particular Churches , as headed by their respective Pastors , are parts and members of the Universal Church , as a City is of a Kingdom , and overthrow the Popes headship over all if you can . It will follow that there must be , besides Christ , an Universal Ecclesiastical Monarch on Earth , either personal or collective , who must have the Supreme power . P. 96. But indeed you have gone beyond Bellarmine in seting up Papal Monarchy . Your other assertion sets up Atheism , by making the Holy God the Author and Founder of two essentially different Churches , or Church-Forms . According to Bellarmines assertion for the Pope , there would be Pastors , &c. But according to your assertion , all the world must be Atheists , of no Religion at all . — P. 224 , 225. Your division of the Church into Universal and particular , is plainly against that Rule in Logick ; Membra omnis bonae divisionis debent esse inter se opposita . But in this your division the Membra dividentia are not inter se opposita : you oppose the same thing against itself . You make the Church at Corinth a particular Church , — The whole or the Universal Church at Corinth is sound and good . You plainly leave out of your description , the differencing Form or token of that which you call a particular Church , and that is Neighbourhood , or dwelling or abiding in this or that place , — you make a new essential of Church-Membership and Church-Communion , and lay the peace of all the Churches on it , and say it is Divine , sure , harmless , fitted to the interest of all good men . This startles me , I strive to be silent and cannot : The more I strive , the more I am overcome * * Alas ! then there is no remedy ! . Mr. Cawdrey was lately with me , and we had Conference about this point , — suspecting mine own judgment ; I have conferred with divers about your other Notions , two Churches , or two Church-Forms differing essentially ; and they cannot apprehend how it can stand ! you make the Universal Church-Form , and the particular Church-Form to differ essentially , and this by Divine Law . I prove to you from the nature of the thing it self , and the express word of God , that the Universal Church of God at Corinth , and the particular Church of God at Corinth , are one and the same . — To oppose the Universal and particular Church , and say they differ essentially , is to oppose the same thing against itself , and make the Lord Jesus Christ the Authour and Founder of selfsubverting Principles . P. 226 , 227. As for that other point , of the Church particular being part of the Church Universal , it is to say , that the whole Church at Corinth is a part of the whole Church , which is absurd .

Reader , I must not Transcribe the whole Book : the rest is too like this ; exercise your patience in receiving a short Answer to the several parts which seemeth needful .

CHAP. IV. A Defence against the foresaid Accusations .

§ 1. WHat Christians heart can choose but mourn for the Church of God , and the puzzling confounding temptations of the ignorant , that must hear men charged thus publickly with Atheism , and the overthrow of all Religion , for that which the Christian world agreeth in ; and this by Preachers of professed humility , sincerity and zeal ? How shall the unlearned know when they are safe ? yea , what snares are thus laid to rob men of their time , as well as their Faith and Charity ? I must not give such lines their proper names : but I will say that it remembreth me of Isa. 1. 6. and it cryeth out unclean , unclean . How few words of Truth , and soberness , and soundness , can you number among all these ? Had he written and published it in his sleep , as some talk , and walk , it were some excuse ! But for a Man , a Minister , awake , and after publick admonition , deliberately , on consultation , a second time , to talk at this rate in the Press ! — And yet cannot we be endured without their Ceremonies , &c. When the Friendly Debater and Mr. Shurlocke have compared such Books as this with those that they reprehended , perhaps they will say , Iliacos intramuros , &c.

To begin at the end , I am sorry to read what he saith of the Divers he Conferred with , &c. 1. I never till now read or heard Papist , Protestant , or any Christian of his mind : And , alas , are divers of it now ? Are Conformists come to that ? Either they were at Manhood , or in breeches at least , or not : If not , he should have chosen other Counsellers : If yea , were they Laymen or Clergymen ? He was to blame if he took up with the former alone in such a case . If the later , he greatly disgraceth them .

But we must say somewhat of our Atheistical Errours . The beginning of his words , which say the same thing which he so abominateth , I will not charge with contradiction in sence from the rest : for if he mean the same thing by [ One and Two , A Church and no Church , A part and no part , Yea and Nay ] they are no contradictions in sence . And indeed I cannot perceive that he understandeth what he readeth and answereth , nor well what he saith . And therefore I am not sure when I understand him ; but I will review some of the things that his words seem to accuse in order .

§ I. The Universal Church , as I defined it , is a True Church . Proved : Where there is a true Church-Head and a Body of all Christians on earth , united and subjected to that Head by mutual consent and Covenant , there is a true Universal Church : but such is that which I named and defined as the Church Universal . — Ergo. — The Major is from the definition to the thing denominated . As to the Minor , 1. That Christ is the True Head . 2. And all Christians the Universal true body , ( visible as Baptized , and mystical as Heart-Covenanters . ) 3. And that mutual Covenanting is a sufficient bond for this Church-union , the Christian Reader will chide me if I stay to prove .

§ 11. Particular Churches existent , are true Churches in Essence . Proved to him : 1. He oft confesseth this and the former . 2. A true pars dirigens & pars subdita , necessarily qualified , ad esse , and united in those relations for Church-ends , are a true particular Church : But such are many existent particular Churches ( and all that I defined : ) Ergo. 1. That a true Bishop , at least with his Presbyters , is a true pars dirigens : 2. And a qualified flock , a true pars subdita : 3. And that such are found united in these relations , I will take for granted with the Reader , except Mr. Ch. And the Major is the definition .

§ III. That the Relative union of the governing Part , or nearest Head to the Governed body , is the specifying form . The proof being de Ente politico & notione Logicâ , is the consent of all Politicks , Logicks , and use of speech by the professours of both , known to us in the world . I oft enough distinguishing de nomine aequivoco , have told men that it is not every Christian Assembly that we speak of , but societas politica . And all Politicks call the form of the Government , the specifying form of the Politick Society , throughout the known world . So Monarchy , Aristocracie , Democracie , are specifying forms of Republicks : And Schools , Armies , Navies , have divers Relative forms , specifyed by the union of the various Regent Relative parts to the rest .

§ IV. The Form is a chief essential part .

§ V. Therefore divers specifying forms , prove divers essences in specie .

§ VI. It is not the generical form that specifieth . Else all things that are ejusdem generis , should be ejusdem speciei . All bodies are not Animate , nor all Animals Men , nor all Men Bishops or Physicians .

§ VII . The Genus denominated without defining it , with the specifying form or difference , makes the Definition of the Species . Else the Definition of the species infima , would be confounded by the conjunct definitions of all the superiour Genera : He that defineth a King , must not put in it the definition of Homo , of Animal , of Vivens , of Corpus and Anima , of substantia .

§ VIII . The highest species must be defined by its proper highest form , though not the subordinate species . The King must be put in the definition of a Kingdom , but not of a City , Country , Church , Family , School ; he is there supposed in a Kingdom . And so of others .

§ IX . The higher Genera must not be named in the definition of the species , but the next , which is the superiour species . Therefore Mr. Ch. mistook his Art of defining , when he said I mist it , by naming Christ as the Head of the Church Universal , and adding that I blame my self that defining of a particular Church . As in Relations it is not the ultimate end , but the nearest that must be in the definition ; so is it not the highest but the next Genus that must be named . In defining all the lower species , the higher Genera are but implyed in the naming of genus proximum , and not named .

§ X. The Relation of Jesus Christ , and of a humane Bishop , are not the same Relation , in specie , though both be called Heads or Rulers . Proved : There is not the same subjectum , nor the same fundamentum , vel ratio fundandi , nor the same Correlate , ( for all the Christian world and a Diocese are not the same ) nor the same nearest terminus : Ergo , not the same Relation .

§ XI . Therefore the Universal Church Headed by Christ onely , and a particular Church subordinately Headed by a Bishop or Clergy-head , are essentially divers , and two : Proved : Where the formal specifying Head or Regent part is two , or divers , and the Body divers , &c. there the societies are divers in specie , or essentially : But so it is here : Ergo. That One and One are Two , I will not undertake to prove to Mr. Ch. nor think it needful to prove to others , nor yet that Christ is One , and a Bishop one ; and not the same . That Christ is the formal Head of the Universal Church , all Christians confess , and therefore to be named in the definition , whether Mr. Ch. will or not , and not supposed : Baptismal Union and subjecting to him , maketh us Christians , and not supposeth us such ( in visible Church-state . ) That Christ is not the formal specifying Head of a particular Church as such , but of the Universal , and so the Supream Head only of the particular , is proved before . 1. Because the specifying forma totius heterogenei , is not the specifying form of the parts . 2. Else all that Christ is Supreme Ruler to , should be such particular Political Churches : which is false ; It is not true of single persons , of Christian Armies , Troops , Markets , Parliaments , Courts , &c. as such . 3. Christ himself by his Apostles hath ordained a subordinate humane species of Church-heads or Rulers . 4. From parity of cases : Natural and Political . The forma animalis , is not forma hominis , nor forma hominis forma oculi , manus , pedis , &c. The General is the formal Head of the Army , but not of a Regiment , but the Colonel : Nor the Colonel of a Troop , but the Captain ; nor the King of a City , but the Maior or other subordinate head : Nor the King or Maior of a Family , School , Colledge , but the Pater-familias , the Master , the Rector , &c. Depose the subordinate Head , and it's part of the Kingdom still , but no Family , School , Colledge , Troop , Regiment , &c. All Mankind that profess dealing in such subjects , ( as far as I know ) are agreed in all this . As to the Body related also , a Diocess is not all the Christian world .

§ XII . Every true particular or single Church , is part of the Universal , ( which is Headed only by Christ . ) That it is part of the Universal , I know not that ever man denyed till now , that a conformable pious Divine maketh this with the former Atheistical , making God and Christ a deceiver , driving all Religion out of the world , Popery , worse , &c. Proved . Quae unita totum constituunt sunt partes : At Ecclesiae omnes particulares , cum membris caeteris & Christo Capite totam seu Universam Ecclesiam Redemptorum constituunt : Ergo , sunt Ecclesiae Universae partes . Ecclesia universa constat ex horum unione . Ergo , haec omnia sunt ejus partes . Again , If the single Churches be no parts of the Universal , either they are Co-ordinate Churches with the Universal , or there is no Universal . If the Universal be All without them , than they are none : If not , then it is not Universal , if there be other Churches which are no parts of it . Again , If they be no parts of the Church Universal , they are no parts of the Body or peculiar people or Kingdom of Christ , ( for that is but one , 1 Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 15 , 16. & 5. &c. ) But they are parts of the Body of Christ . Ergo.

§ XIII . To say that the whole Church , e. g. at Corinth , and the whole Church in the world are the same , and what 's predicated of one is also of the other , is a saying — not to be justly denominated . The subjectum , relatum , correlatum , fundamentum , terminus , proximus , and so the relation are divers . The whole Church and its Head , and a part and its subordinate Head , are not the same . The Kingdom and the City , the City and a Parish or Ward , the University and a Colledge , the Man and a hand , &c. are not the same .

§ XIV . To say as he doth , that a Family is not a part of the street , or that of the City , and London no Member or part of the Kingdom , is stuff that — I will not name : an ill foundation for the charge of Atheism , Blasphemy , and all Impiety . But I am out of all fear that he should make one Proselyte that 's sani cerebri . If any accuse him of less than denying God and Christ , even but of Deposing the King from most of his Kingdoms , and saying that London , and so of every one City , Corporation , &c. is no part of it , I would desire them to allow him his own Exposition : for he mcaneth not so ill as he saith .

§ XV. To say that one whole cannot be a Member or part of another whole , is yet , if possible , more — than the former . What , may not Corpus politicum be a member of a larger body Politick ? Is there any part of the Universe if this be true ? at least save Atomes and Spirits : And in what sense an Atome , or Anima , or Spiritus , may be called totum , Scaliger , and the Schoolmen , and Metaphysicks , commonly tell you . Are not whole stones part of Mountains ? and whole Trees of the Forrest ? and whole Herbs of the whole Garden ? and whole Fields of the whole Countrey ? and whole Parishes of the whole Diocess and County , and those of the Kingdom ? and that of Europe ? and that of the world ? Is not a whole hand or foot part of a whole man ? Is not the mateial Universe made up of compounded parts ? What a trick has he found to exempt us all from Government ? every man may say , I am a whole man : therefore I am no part of the Bishop of Londons Diocess , or of the Parish , or of the Family . Deny or destroy all such parts , and you deny or destroy the whole . Did he think that all Noun Substantives signified the same thing , which have the same Adjective ; and that a whole Man , and a whole Dog , or World , are all one ?

§ XVI . It 's little better when he argueth that homogeneal parts make not a new species . As if he could prove that the Church is Totum homogeneum . Are not Christ and Christians , the King and the Subjects of the Universal Church , partes heterogeneae , in esse politico relativo ? Are not Bishops and Laicks partes heterogeneae ? Had he forgot how much of his Book is to prove even Bishops and Presbyters as widely different ? No Christian denyeth it of the Church Universal , nor any of single Churches , that denyes not a Ministry , and the being of such Churches as Political .

§ XVII . While thus he maketh National Churches Metropolitical , Diocesane , Parochial , and the very Independent , which he most revileth , all one , or of one essential species , it seemeth that he knoweth not how he unsaith most that he said before .

§ XVIII . It is little better that he maketh several Churches , viz. at Paris and at Plimouth , &c. to differ only in Number and Place . 1. Do not the Popish , Protestant , Episcopal , and Presbyterian , differ in the Form of Government ? 2. Do not those of the same Form differ as Individuals by their several Rulers ? besides abundance of accidental differences ?

§ XIX . And what Doctrine is it to say , Christs Body is one ; not as one is opposed to multitude , but to division and destruction ? Hath Christ a multitude of Bodies univocally so called ? even such a Body as we treat of ? Hath Christ many Universal Churches containing all Christians headed by Christ ?

§ XX. When he had so grosly wronged himself , as to say , It is an errour in the art of defining , to say of the Universal Church , it is Headed by Christ himself ; what other Head or formal Regent part doth he name ? will he have another ? or will he have none in the definition ? Is that the art of defining ?

§ XXI . It 's little better to say , Is is an errour to define the Universal Church without Pastors , as the Assembly did . What! a better Logician than all the Assembly too ? Alas , how fell the good man under this temptation ? He instanceth in a body defined without Liver , Stomack , &c. But 1. I hope he doth not think all is excluded that is not to be named ? 2. Is there no better definition of a man , than Animal implume , bipes , &c. or one that hath a Liver and Stomack , &c. When to the Entelechia or anima , he added Corpus organicum , Aristotle thought he said enough of the body . Is not Animal rationale a just definition of a man , without naming his Liver and Spleen , or Heart ? Is not the Genus & differentia enough for a definition ? Definitiones debent esse breves ; & nihil otiosum continere : otiosum est quo ablato , definitio reliqua rei essentiam explicat . A Kingdom is defined by naming no more than the King and Subjects in general , without naming Judges , Justices , Sheriffs , &c. There are no constitutive principles in Nature , but Mater , materiae dispositio & forma : And the imperfect definitions of accidents , must be as like as may be to those of substances . The specifying form here , is only Christ the Head so related : Though he made Christians before Ministers , and were all Pastors dead , the Church were still Christs Universal Body ; yet I grant it is not a just organized body without Pastors : but that maketh them but to be the nobler part of the disposed matter : men do not use to play the Anatomists in definitions , and instead of Animal , or of Corpus organicum , to name Heart , Stomack , Lungs , &c. But it is a healthful man that Mr. Ch. is defining . Answ. 1. But it is not a healthful Church , but a true Church in essence that I was defining . 2. If it had been otherwise , the name of the parts need not enter the definition of health . And are these his saving truths ?

§ XXII . And what an intimation is it , that if there be an essential difference between the Universal and particular Church , there 's none between the Church and the world , the righteous and the wicked , Heaven and Hell . These things are fitter to be answered by Interjections ( which be no words ; but voces non vocabula ) than by Speech . If Christ and a Bishop in esse relationis politicae differ essentially , must good and bad , Heaven and Hell be all one ? If an Army , and a Regiment , and a Troop , differ in their formal specifying essences , must a Subject and a Rebel , the Court and the Gallows therefore be all one . Proh ! apage !

§ XXIII . Next he asks , How can any man know the right Church then ? Answ. What! no way but by making Christ and a Bishop formally the Head ? we know the Universal Church by its true definition ; and a true particular Church by its true definition and properties .

§ XXIV . Yea , he saith , we shall never be able to confute Popery and Infidelity by this Doctrine . Answ. Alas , will the good man turn Papist or Infidel , unless the Universal Church and a Diocesane have the same specifying difference , or formal Head ? Then what remedy ?

§ XXV . I have no Interjection deep enough for that which followeth , viz. This Doctrine supposeth two essentially different Churches : The Universal Church without Pastors , ( Putares ) and of this Christ is Head : particular Churches , of which Christ is no Head ] Putares ! Where said I any such thing ! Is this lawful ? As if 1. there must be no Pastors , unless they be the formal Head of the Universal Church . 2. And as if there must be no Christ the Supream Head , if the Bishop be the formal differencing specifying subordinate Head : and all but the named parts are denyed : As if he would have more than the genus proximum , and differentia specificans in a definition : yea , even the genus supremum ! and Christ shall be the specifying Head , or none !

§ XXVI . He saith , [ So the same thing shall be contrary to itself . ] As if 1. Christ and a Bishop , in formal relation were proved to be the same . 2. Or things subordinate were contrary , ( which he denyeth himself . )

§ XXVII . He saith , [ Christs Church in this world is but one . ] Answ. If there be but one particular Church , 1. Then numerically the Church of London and Basil are one : And then if I separate not from the Church at Basil , I separate not from the Church of London . 2. If de specie there be but one , then a Patriarchal , Diocesane , Parochial , Presbyterian , and Democratical Church are but of one species : And why then did you use so many words to tell us of the need of Bishops over Bishops , and of the several sorts of supra-ordinate Church-Rulers ? Then a National Church and a Parish-Church are but one .

§ XXVIII . He addeth , [ Quae conveniunt uno tertio , conveniunt inter se ; but the Church Universal and particular agree in uno tertio , &c. ] Answ , As if Convenientia generica , were convenientia totalis vel specifica ? or , Convenientia partialis & totalis , Accidentalis & Essentialis , were all one ? What pretty Logick is here , to prove a King and a Constable all one , because they are both Men , both Christians , and both Rulers ? I hope then a Bishop and a Presbyter are all one , that in your sorry sense agree in uno tertio ? But let us hear the inferred Charge against us .

§ XXIX . An Addition of Homogeneous Particles ( saith he ) makes no essential differences . Answ. Christ and a Bishop are heterogeneous : Yea , a Diocesane and a Parish-Priest : have you proved that they are not ? or that they are ?

§ XXX . It will necessarily infer that God is contrary to himself , saith he . Answ. O Temerity in the dark ! that is , unless his Church-relation be the same with the Bishops ? As if the King be contrary to himself , if his Kingdom and a Corporation or School be not of the same species ?

§ XXXI . He saith , [ If this opinion stand , Religion cannot stand . An. Do you mean in you or in me , or all others ? Do you resolve to cast away all Religion , if Christ and a Bishop be not the same informing regent parts of the Church Universal and particular ? Think better of it first ; for Religion is more necessary than so . Do you think that the Christian world , which hath ever been of the opinion which you detest , had never any Religion ? Nor hath now any ? Which way do Churches that are parts of the Universal , cast out all Religion ?

§ XXXII . If Christ set up two essentially different Church-Forms , he is not the Saviour but the deceiver of the world . Answ. And must Christ bear such a charge as well as I ? I should sooner have expected it from a Turk or Jew , than from you .

§ XXXIII . He saith , [ Why then do you blame turning Parish-Churches into Chappels , and making them but parts of a Diocesane , as a Troop of an Army ? ] Answ. Putide putares . When shall we meet with a true Sentence ? It is not for making them parts of a Diocesane Church as Troops of an Army , but for making them no Political true Churches , but disbanding all the Troops , by making them no Troops , but such parts of a Regiment as Squadrons are . It is for putting down Inferiour Bishops , and not for being themselves Bishops over them ; yet on this doth he ground his charge of my deceiving men , and wronging God and his Church , &c.

§ XXXIV . He addeth , [ Look what Bellarmine maketh the Pope , &c. that do you , &c. for you say that particular Churches , as headed by their respective Bishops and Pastours , are parts of another Church called the Church Universal . By which assertion you set up an Universal Head — besides Christ , and you say this is of Divine Institution , and lay the Concord of all the Churches on it . ] Answ. If you are sani Cerebri , this is so gross , that your putarem hath no excuse . Had you not your self repeated my definition , and carpt at those very words , [ Headed only by Christ ] and many times your self repeated it as my opinion . 2. Or had you tryed your wrangling wit to have proved , that [ if Christ only be asserted to be the Head , I thereby assert another Head ] or that [ If I make Bishops particular specifying Heads , I therefore assert a humane Universal Head , ] you had some cloak for your putarem : But now — If you next print that I said that a Dog is a man , I will no more wonder at it than at this . See Reader how my Church-Concord is oppugned , and by what weapons Satan doth that work . As if he that saith the King only is the specifying Head of the Kingdom , and the Captain of his Troop , or the Diocesans of a Diocess , were a Traytor , and did assert another Head of the Kingdom than the King .

§ XXXV . Do but grant the Papists ( saith he ) this one assertion , that particular Churches , as headed by their respective Pastors , are parts and members of the Universal , as Cities of a Kingdom , and overthrow the Popes Headship over all if you can . It will follow , that there must be besides Christ , an universal Monarch on earth , &c. Answ. 1. Affirmanti incumbit probatio . Did you think we must take your bare word in so great a case ? Do you say one word to prove your affirmation ? Must we all turn Papists upon your immodest naked saying , it is so ? 2. But your immodesty is in this excessive to me , that have written two Books against Johnson , alias Terret , and the later but lately and largely , to prove that the Church hath no Universal Head but Christ , notwithstanding the particular Regency of the Bishops ; and for you to give me not a word of answer to them , and bid me now prove it if you can , when I have voluminously proved it ! This is such dealing as I will not name . — 3. But I am heartily sorry , what ever did it , that you are got so neer to Popery . As if you will be a Papist , unless all the writers of the Christian world are deceived , and if the particular Church be a part of the Universal , which ●●●● dare boldly swear it is , and sober men doubt not .

XXXVI . He adds , [ Indeed you have gone be●ond Bellarmine , in setting up Papal Monarchy . Your ●ther assertion sets up Atheism , by making the holy God the authour and founder of two essential different Churches , or Church-Forms . ] Answ. Putares . But if all the Christian world be of the same mind , do they all set up Atheism , and are you only free ? As for Tho. Hooker whom you cited , though it be twenty four years , or thereabouts , since I read Mr. Hudson and him , ( and will not tast away my time in perusing them ) my memory doubts not that it was only a Universal Church made one by one universal humane policie , that he denied ; and that they differed but about words . Did ever Christian before you , deny particular Churches to be distinct policies , and parts of the Universal ? Have we so many Books written of Ecclesiastical Policie , and is there no such thing ? or no Churches that are Politick Societies ?

§ XXXVII . He adds , [ According to your assertion , all the world must be Atheists , of no Religion at all . ] Answ. Then all the world of Christians are so ; for as far as writings notifie , they are generally of this mind . Alas , Brother , did you shew this to any man before you Printed it ? for their honour I must think you did not ; and for your sake I wish you had .

§ XXXVIII . He adds , [ Your division of the Church into Universal and particular , is plainly against that Rule in Logick , Membra omnis bonae divisionis debent esse inter se opposita ] but you oppose the same thing against it self . Answ. Thus do men humble themselves by forsaking humility ! Had it not been better for your to have let your Logick alone , than to bewray that which you might have concealed ? Are not diversa distinguishable as well as opposita ? And is there no diversity in parte essentiae , ( as in subalternis ) where there is not a diversity in totâ essentia , ( as there is in summis generibus ? ) is there not both diversity and opposition , inter totum & partem , and between the species of an universal and particular Society ? Are they not Relative opposita ? May you not distinguish Army , and Regiment , and Troop , Kingdom and City , Christ and a Bishop ? &c.

§ XXXIX . He adds , [ You make the Church at Corinth a particular Church . ] Answ. And do not all Christians ? Is it all the Christian world ?

§ XL. You plainly ( saith he ) leave out of your description the differing form or token of that which you call a particular Church , and that is , Neighbourhood , &c. Answ. Anne putares ? 1. Have I so oft exprest it , and yet will you say so ? 2. But it was in descriptions indeed , and I was far from your Logical belief , that Neighbourhood is the differencing form . And I hope no one else is of your mind . 1. If Neighbourhood be the differencing form , then all Christian Neighbours are particular Churches : But that is false : Ergo. — 1. Those that dwell together only for Trade , are not therefore Churches . 2. Those that hold that there are no particular Churches or Pastors , but that all Christians are as Priests . 3. Those that hold that the Minister of the Parish where they live is no true Minister , nor the Parish a true Church . 4. Those that profess themselves Members of no particular Church . 5. Those that profess to be no Members of that Church , but of another . 6. Papists and Sectaries that stand in opposition to that Church . 7. Those that dwell near another Parish-Church , and many miles from their own , are not Members by proximity . 8. Those that are Excommunicated , which is de facto all professed Non-Conformists . 9. In places where the Magistrate tyeth not Churches to Parish-bounds , persons of the same street and house may be of several Churches . 10. No man that consenteth not is a Church-Member . 11. And who knoweth not that proximity is but dispositio materiae , and not the differencing form ? All these singular novelties should have had better proof than these dry assertions , contrary to all Christian sense .

§ XLI . [ This startles me : I strive to be silent and cannot , ( saith he ) and the more I strive , the more I am overcome . ] Answ. If you are so far gone , I shall hereafter , I think , without any striving with my self , let that which is within you talk on , and not resist you . For who can hold that which will away ? But I wish you the benefit of some stiptick remedy , and a sober mind .

§ XLII . [ I prove to you ( saith he , when there is nothing like one proving word ) &c. you make the Lord Jesus the authour and founder of subverting principles . ] Answ. Read the Ninth Commandment . I conclude with these requests to him , as my true friend ; viz. to consider : Qu. 1. Whether a man so far from persecution , and yet condemning us of Atheism , blaspheming , and destroying all Religion , &c. be not much more uncharitable , than they that charge no such thing upon us , but trouble us for refusing Forms are Ceremonies ? or is it not the same spirit ?

Qu. 2. Whether he justifie not the silencing and ruining of all whom he so accuseth ? should not such impious Atheists be silenced ?

Qu. 3. If he knew that the generality of the Christian world in all ages hold what he thus censureth , what will he call it , to charge all Christians so far with Atheism , and casting out all Religion , and making God and Christ a deceiver ? If he knew it not , what will he call it , to venture thus to publish such an accusation , before he knew that which an ordinary Inhabitant of the world might so easily have known ? As if he had published [ All that say a City is specified by its subordinate Form of Government , and is a part of the Kingdom , specified by the Monarch , are Traytors , and depose the King , or make him a deceiver and no King , and deny all obedience . ] What will you call this dealing ?

Qu. 4. Was it well done to write such a Book , while he understood so very little of the very plainest passages which he wrote against ?

Qu. 5. Was it excusable to confess some errour of the last , and to add far worse , and after warning a second time , so to speak evil of what he understood not ?

Qu. 6. Was it humility to make ostentation of the Logick he understood not .

Qu. 7. Doth not the extreme bold confidence of the falsest of his own conceptions , shew a very unhumbled overvaluing of his own understanding ? To be ignorant is common to Mankind ; yea , and to be much ignorant of our ignorance , and to think that we know more than we do : But to have so little sense of this calamity , and so little suspicion of ones own understanding , as to be confident to such a height of accusation of the grossest falshoods , where a lad of fourteen years old , that had read any thing of Logick and Politicks , might have better taught him ; ( that I say not , the reason and use of Mankind ) this seemeth somewhat beyond the common measure of self-conceitedness .

Qu. 8. Whether the great number of asserted untruths here , shew not some want of necessary tenderness , or care of writing ?

CHAP. IV. Mr. Chenies Accusations of me about Church-Covenants , and rigid Independencie , and the odiousness hereof , considered .

§ 1. WHen he had said , that [ it leads to two contrary Gods , which is to make no true God , p. 69. ] He proceedeth [ Mr. B. hath devised and framed two Covenants , the one to make a man a Member of the Church Universal , the other of the particular , p. 97. I will shew , 1. That this is the same with the upstart way of the Independents : 2. The unsoundness of it , p. 101. Mr. B. and the Independents now , are contrary to their own principle in baptizing the Infants of Non-Confederates , p. 129. [ I do utterly withstand it as Wickedness and Abomination in Gods Church ; I am to die and burn at a stake before I yield to any such thing : This is Mr. Baxters way : He offers it to Bishop Morley and Bishop Gunning , in his Preface to his last Book of Concord , that posterity may see what it is that he would have had , and laboured to set up in all the Churches : And accordingly , let both the present and future Ages see and know , p. 130. Your way is not so innocent as that of re-baptizing . For the very matter and terms of your Church-Covenant are unsafe , and plainly Schismatical ! As if Constables and people of each Town must Confederate to be a Corporation , an Independent body having all jurisdiction within themselves , and such as will not enter into this Confederacy , must be counted none of the Kings Subjects . — To say there are no Churches in the world but a few Independent Churches , — were to go beyond Brownism : It were rather to teach Infidelity : such an opinion would be abhorred by all : Now Mr. Baxter and the Independents Doctrine saith it . — Their errour , should they hold it habitually , predominantly , and practically , would be certainly their damnation . — p. 141 , [ I see not but Pagans , gross Hereticks , Apostates , Thieves and Robbers might combine together and say , I take thee for my Pastor , and I take you for my people : Doth not your Doctrine infer it ? p. 143. If I yield to their assertion , I must subvert the office of Christ and his Apostles , and all his faithful Ministers , and all the Churches to this day ; which I will not do for fear of the censure of any man living , no nor of a whole Council of men , p. 57. The way that Mr. Baxter offers , seems to be a worse way , — It is the way of rigid Independencie . — Indeed Mr. B. in all his Writings seems to be against the Office of Lay-Elders : But that he is not for them under another notion , as Heads and delegates of the people , mutually chosen by the Pastor and people , for assistance in Discipline , may be doubted . He seems to hint at it , &c.

§ 2. How little truth is in all this , and abundance such ? 1. either it is truth that I am for rigid Independency , or not . If not , — if yea , I am glad that the Independent way is no worse . I am not much acquainted with them : But , if this man say true , 1. They are for no Covenanting , but consent to the relation signifyed . 2. They are not for binding any to continue in that relation . 3. They are not for binding any from a regular use of any other Minister , or Churches Communion . 4. In places where Parishes are divided by Law , and the ordinary attendance on the Pastors Ministration goeth for a sign of consent , they are true Churches and Members that thus signifie it ; and ad esse it is usually enough , though ad bene esse in doubtful cases the more express , as more intelligible caeteris paribus is best . 5. They are against an Office of Lay-Elders , distinct from Ministers of the Word and Sacraments , as of Gods institution for Church-government . 6. They are against Democracie , or the Church-governing power of the People . 7. They take reformed Parish-Churches for the best Order , not taking all for Members that are in the Parish , but all the capable . 8. They are against gathering Churches out of such Parish-Churches , without great necessity . 9. They are greatly against requiring any qualification as necessary to Communion in point of holiness , but express consent to the Baptismal Covenant , or profession of Christianity , not disproved . 10. They make not the peoples Election of their Pastors necessary ad esse , but meer consent , though the Patron or others Elect them . 11. They suppose that the peoples Election or consent is not necessary to make a man a Minister in the Universal Church , but only to make him their Pastor . As to make a Physician , and to make him my Physician , differ . 12. They suppose that a true Minister officiateth as such , where ever he doth it . 13. They suppose that associations or correspondencies of Churches for concord and help , and Synods to that end , and dependencie on such Synods , is usually a duty where it can well be had ; and needless discord a fault . 14. They refuse not to submit in practice to the instructions or admonitions of any general Visiter or Overseer of many Churches , called by some Archbishops . 15. They refuse not the precedency of one Pastor in every particular Church over the rest of the Presbyters . 16. They refuse him not the name of the Bishop , nor yet to submit to his negative voice as of the Quorum ( or the Archbishops either ) in Ordinations and all great publick matters . 17. They are for separating from no Christians , further than they separate from Christ , or would force them to sin ; but are for universal Love and Concord . 18. They are for obeying the Magistrate in all lawful things belonging to his function . 19. They take the most extensive Love , Peace , and Concord for the most desirable and best . 20. It is next their obedience to Christ and his sufficient Laws ; the great reason why they are against the terms imposed in most places of the Christian world , where things unnecessary and suspected are made necessary to Communion . Reader , Mr. Ch. is so honest a man , that it were unjust to take him for a deliberate studied Lyar. Therefore seeing he saith that my way is rigid Independency , and oft maketh me a downright Independent , I that know my own Judgement , and knew not theirs so well as he seems to do , am glad to hear that they are no worse , and that they are wronged by such as accuse them of denying any of those Twenty points .

§ 3. And supposing that he saith true , and that they hold but my way , as he calls it , I will now try the force and honesty of his charge against them .

And first , it savours of a spirit worse than his own , that when he had before used the word [ Oath ] as owned by me , and then said , he repented of it , that he still useth the word [ Covenant ] here as mine , instead of Consent , which is the word which I use , and over and over say , that I own no Covenant but any signification of Consent to the relation ; onely because I said , that not ad esse , but ad bene esse , plain or express Consent in doubtful cases is best . This smells of an ill intention ; and now I will try his arguments against this Consent .

§ 4. P. 101. he saith Mr. B. acts contrary to his own Principles in baptizing the Children of No● confederates . The Universal and Particular Church make but one Church of God . He that refuseth one Essential of Church-communion , is no Christian , and is to be debarred the Priviledges of Christians . But according to you , Non-confederates refuse one essential of Church-communion — I may not baptize you , you are to me a Pagan .

Ans. Putares , sed calumniaris . Here is fallacia aequivocationis , and so quatuour termini . This Parish-Church and the Universal are not the same . The word Church in the Major , signifieth one thing , and in the Minor another . All is not essential to Communion in the Church Universal , which is essential to Communion with this or that , or any particular political Church . To the later , there must be , you say , Neighbourhood ; and I say , proper Pastors and Flocks for personal Communion . But the Eunuch , Acts 8. was baptized into the Universal Church , and not into any Neighbourhood , Parish , Diocess , Assembly , or had any stated Pastor . He came into no Church-meeting . Philip ( the Deacon supposed ) was snatcht away from him in the open field , &c. Baptism as such , enters us into no particular Church . Your words [ you are a Pagan to me ] are too false for a Christian to have used . He that believeth with all his heart is no Pagan . I am a Minister of Christ to the world ; but Infidels are not my Flock , or a Church . Catechizers should teach Children all this plain truth .

§ 5. II. P. 102. [ Ask Mr. Baxter ( saith he ) Whom do you mean by the word Church , and at last he must come to one man the Pastor ( as the Papist● the Pope . ) He that covenanteth first , covenantet● with none but the Pastor . You change your terms . What Church must he covenant with that was first baptized ? Ans. Christ was baptized , and his first baptized Disciple and he were the Embryo of the Universal Church , if you can prove that one was baptized alone . And as to a particular Church , the Gatherer at first is onely a Minister in the Church Universal , and authorized to that gathering which shall be the Foundation of his future relation : And the first person that consenteth , and he , are not a proper Church ; for it is an Embryo , and in fieri , as a Troop when the Captain hath listed the first man . But usually many are made Christians first , and then they are materia disposita , and Consent maketh the Pastors and them to be particular Churches , Acts 14. 23. They ordained them Elders in every Church . Elders of their own , Acts 20. the Elders of the Church of Ephesus , and so of the rest of the Churches , are mentioned . And is the Captain a Troop , or the Pastor a Church , if he be the gatherer of it ?

§ 6. III. You name not Christ , ( saith he ) but the Pastor . Ans . When we say Captain A. B's Troop , we name not the General . When we say , the Bishop of London 's Diocess , the King's Dominion , &c. we name not Christ , or God : For onely the Genus proximum is to be in definitions . The Superiour are supposed : they are Christians first .

§ 7. IV. You say ( saith he ) that before this Covenant men are but hewed stones , that is , all the faithful are Pagans . Ans. Putares . To be prepared for Baptism is somewhat more than to be Pagans : But till consent Christians are not Members of any particular Church . The Eunuch was but a hewn stone , as you call it , as to a formed Congregation ; but he was no Pagan , but a Member of the Body of Christ .

§ 8. V. This ( saith he ) makes the most excellent Ministers , Apostles , &c. mere Lay-men , such as go up and down preaching to Pagans where Christ is not known — plainly subverts the Gospel , &c. Ans. They are Christ's Ministers , and not Lay-men , while they convert Pagans , and yet Pagans are no Church : And till they are a Church , no Apostle is a Pastor of them as a Church . The Gospel standeth for all this .

§ 9. But ( saith he ) may not a man be a Shepherd by calling and occupation , unless he have a Flock , as well as a Physician ? &c. Ans. Either you quarrel de re or de nomine . If de re , do you mean any more than that he is authorized to gather and rule a Flock ? If more , what is it ? If not , you calumniate if you pretend that I deny this ; but if it be onely de nomine , whether the name of a Pastor may be given him that yet hath no Flock , or of a Captain to him that hath no Troop ; I answer , 1. When you wrangle but about Names , try once more to stay that list of laying the overthrow of the Gospel on your Names . 2. Titles of Relation may be given aptitudinally ex intentione de futuro : But if one may be called a Pastor by relation to an intended Flock , much more to an actual Flock , and still it is a Relative to such a Flock intended . 3. Try in Scripture , and Councils , and all Church-writers , whether the title Pastor be not usually given onely to those that have actual Flocks . But to avoid your quarrel , call you them by what name you list , if that will ease or please you .

§ 10. VI. According to this Doctrine , a Minister hath no Office or Authority but just to those of his own charge , he preacheth elsewhere but as a gifted man . Ans. Still false , as to me , of whom you speak ! what a strange Chain of Calumnies can you make ? A Minister is 1. Christ's Officer to the world to convert them . 2. To gather a Church in fieri . 3. To officiate pro tempore in any other Church , as a Licensed Physician to others ( even to Physicians ) doth his office .

§ 11. VII . It maketh void ( saith he ) Gods Ordinance of Ordination : for either they are Ministers by Ordination , or not : If yea , this Doctrine is erroneous . Ans. Unproved : Ordination , sine titulo , maketh a man a Minister to the World and to the Church indefinitely . Ordination with Institution doth that and more , viz. it tieth a Minister to a consenting people . Your Writings are all stigmatized with the shame of naked affirmations without proof , and then forgetfully you oft say [ I have proved . ] Why may not Consent , and Ordination , and Institution , and Induction too , be all needful ? Is a man and womans Consent needless , unless the Ministers marrying them be needless ? May not a Town , Hospital , or Person , chuse a Physician as theirs if he were licensed be-before ? If a Captain have commission to raise a Troop , is consent of the Listed needless ? So of a Major ; a Pilot , or any relation which requires Consent .

§ 12. VIII . It inferreth ( saith he ) that the Church is before the Officers , viz. Pagans a Church . Ans . All fictions as to me to whom he speaks : I said before , they are as the Heart to the Body ; the punctum saliens is the first organical part to make the rest ; but not a part of the Body till the Body be made . They are Ministers to gather Churches , and then Pastors of Churches onely by consent . And when Churches are gathered , and the Pastor dead , the people are Intentionally a Society , but actually but a Community , till a Pastor related to them make them a politick society : And then relata sunt simul —

§ 13. IX . This Doctrine puts a new clause into Baptism , which Christ never put in , and altereth Christianity ( saith he . ) Before I baptize you , I must have an antecedent Covenant or signified Consent from you to submit to me ; and you must be baptized in the name of Paul , &c. No Church-covenant , no Church-member , no right to any Church-ordinance . Ans. Confundendo fortiter caluminaris . 1. The Eunuch consented to be a Christian of the Church Universal , but not to be of a particular Church ; without that Consent he had not been baptized : but this was not needful to it . 2. The dispute whether Lay-mens baptism be valid , I leave to you . But if yea , it is not necessary that I judge the Baptizer a Minister . If not , then it is necessary , and my consent is necessary to make me a Christian , but not him a Minister : But mutual consent is necessary to his Pastoral relation to a particular Church . 3. An Ordinance common to the Church Universal , and proper to a particular Church , should not be confounded , nor so much as the modal ministration . Do I adde to Baptism , if I say that by the Canons and Custom of all the Churches for one Thousand years , a man was not to be taken for the Bishop of any Church without mutual consent ? what 's this to Baptism ? And what temerity is it to feign men to wrong Christ by that which was his Institution , and so judged and used in all the Churches ?

§ 14. X. [ Saith he ] It maketh the people Church-Rulers or Co-partners in office with the Pastors , so that without their Consent they can do nothing ; not baptize . Ans. Of me the calumny hath no excuse , I have written so much to the contrary : Yea , the very Act calumniated essentially containeth the contrary in it . As he that consenteth to be a Servant , consenteth not to be Master , but to obey : So they that consent to be Lay-members of a Pastors Flock , consent that he , and not they , shall rule , and that they will be the obeying part . How could you wink so hard , as not to see that your false witness confuteth it self ? And what if he cannot be their Governour without their consent , doth this give them any part in governing ? Nay what if he cannot baptize a Non-consenter , or give him the Lords Supper , is the Refuser a Church-governour ? The man had got a heap of Notions against the Independents in his mind , or his instigator that hath the same disease had thrust them in , and out they must come against he knew not whom or what , upon the word [ Consent . ] What work would he make in the Church , if he should deny the necessity of this Consent , and have the Church made a Prison where Infidels should be cram'd and drencht with the Sacrament ?

§ 15. XI . [ It sets up ( saith he ) Rebaptization by a Law — For it requireth of godly baptized ones an antecedent Covenant to be Members of the particular Church : As if a man should covenant to be a godly Citizen of London — to be a Member of Gods Church at K. and hold communion therewith : the people are called on to be new Christians , as if they had been no Christians before ] Ans. It is a sin to read such words without grief and indignation . What! is every renewal of the Covenant of Godliness or Christianity a Rebaptizing , or supposeth us Pagans ? Is this made by a Minister a heinous sin ? Are we not to do it in every partaking of the Lords Supper ? Yea , explicitely or implicitely in every prayer . Is Mr. Allen's Book for Covenanting , and Mr. Rawlet's of Sacramental Covenanting , such unchristening Heresies ? Is it damnable or sinful to covenant to be a godly Servant , or a godly Husband or Wife , or a godly Minister or Magistrate ? Doth this suppose them ungodly before ? with wat weapons are we assaulted ?

§ 16. XII . He addes [ It bindeth people to be dwellers within the precincts of that one Church , to hear no other Minister , to joyn with no other Congregation . Ans. Concatenated Calumnies , as to me : They onely consent to the Relation of Lay-members till they remove their dwelling or relation . They consent to take that Church but as a part of the Universal , and therefore to hold just Communion with all others , and receive what benefit they can from any other Ministers . I abhor a Covenant that renounceth Communion with the Universal Church , or any part of it , without necessary cause . Putide haec putares .

§ 17. XIII . He addes , [ What shall godly Strangers , Travellers , &c. do ? your Doctrine maketh them invaders . ] Ans. 1. If I have no notice of their consent to communicate with us pro tempore , they expect it not : And de ignotis non judicat Ecclesia ; and non apparere is equal to non esse . If I have notice of their Consent , it supposeth some notice that they are baptized , or Christians , and have more right than Heathens to Communion : And if so , 1. They consent to be Members of the Universal Church , and as such I shall give them the Sacrament and Communion , though I were no Pastor of any particular stated Church . 2. They consent to a Transient Temporary Communion with me as a Minister in the Catholick Church . And 3. They consent to transient temporary Communion with that particular Church , and transient temporary Communion I will give them ; yea , and may call them transient Members of that Church ; but no further any of these than they consent . A Christian giving evidence of his Christianity , hath right to transient Communion in all Churches in the world where he cometh : yea , all are not bound to live in stated Churches ; some are Travellers , some unsetled Embassadors , some Factors amongst Heathens , some of no Habitation , Beggars , Pedlars , Tinkers , and such wandring Trades ; some live where is no Church with whom they may hold lawful Communion , &c. Now we have a new Divine risen up in the end of the world , that seems to make all the setled Churches of Christ in the world for many hundred years , to be all Traitors to Christ , because these wanderers must not consent to their special relations , nor enjoy their proper Priviledges ; and because they consent themselves to a more setled relation and Communion than these wanderers or refusers are capable of . What would all the old Church , that made so many Canons about their proper Communion , have thought of this mans Doctrine , if he had come among them at their Elections , Discipline , Distributions to the Widows and Poor , and said , Hold Sirs ! You are all destroying Baptism and Christianity , by consenting to more towards one another than you owe to every unknown wanderer , or refuser of a setled Church-state ? As if with our new Politician all Cities and Corporations are Traytors , or deny or wrong the King , because all Subjects are not Citizens , some being Vagrants , some in Villages , some Souldiers , some in odde Houses , &c. and because Cities consent to a special sort of Government which the rest have not . Between the Anathematizers and these over-wise Censurers , there are few Christians in the world that are not condemned as no Christians for being sound Christians .

§ 18. XIV . He was aware that we say that every one that may come into the Temple is not a part of my special Charge as a Pastor , which I cannot do for all : And he saith , [ It 's all one to your Doctrine if he refuse your Church-covenant — The Minister all this while is no Minister ; the People all this while are no Christians . — They are no more lawful Pastor and People , than Whoremonger and Whore going together , and committing acts of filthiness , and living in Fornication all their days — Ans. Continued Calumny as to me . Is no modesty or tender fear of sinning against the Ninth Commandment left ? 1. He that refuseth Consent to be a stated Member , is none such : But is he therefore no Christian ? Awake , Conscience ! Do any Independents say that none are Christians but their special charge ; yea , or stated Members of particular Churches ? If there be any such , what 's that to me ? 2. Such persons may be Members of the Universal Church , and I am a Pastor in the Universal Church ; and as such may communicate with them . 3. If he desire temporary Communion , he consents to as much as he desireth , and that he may have : If he desire more , he shall have more . § 19. But ( saith the Accuser ) what speak you of Literae Communicatoriae , These are nothing to yourcase ; ( he saith it , ergo , he proveth it . ) It shuts him out of all particular Churches and Congregations under Heaven , except , &c. ] Ans. Putares ! of me it 's thus true or false . 1. He that consents not to be a stated Member of any Church , none , because he would be none : and it 's blind self-contradiction , to say that I shut him out , because he will not come in . 2. He that consenteth to be a Member of the Universal Church shall not be shut out . 3. He that by literas Communicatorias , or any good testimony , sheweth himself a Christian , and desireth onely one days temporary Communion with a stated particular Church , shall not be denied that which he desireth , nor will we urge him to more .

§ 19. XV. He adds [ It layeth waste Parish-bounds , leaving people to go to what Church they will — Intimating , that being a godly man and a Parishioner , doth not make him a Member of the Parish-Church — Teaching people to be disorderly . ] Ans. 1. A quatenus ad omne valet consequentia . I said enough before to prove the falsehood of your Church-estate . 1. Then there were no Church till there were Parish-bounds 2. Then if Papists , Anabaptists , &c. be godly , and dwell in the Parish , they are Members against their wills . 3. And they are Members of two particular Churches ; one in despight of them , and of the other as Consenters . 4. There are some Houses that are in no Parish ( that I have known . ) Alas , these must be of no Church . 5. Some parts of one Parish are in the middle of another . The truth is , Parish-bounds are ordinarily of good use for Order , and Order is for Edification , and to promote the thing ordered : and he layeth it not waste , 1. That giveth it no more than its due , as a humane mutable circumstance , and not as essential . 2. Nor he that refuseth it when it is turned against the end and the res ordinanda .

§ 20. XVI . He addes , [ Then if the Pastor set over them be a son of Belial — and sinfully tolerated by the Magistrate ; the people of the Parish who can neither remove him , nor sit under a more edifying Minister , must covenant to him , &c. Ans. Strange ! who would have thought but this was neerer your opinion than theirs ? Briefly , if the man be tolerable , they must rather accept of him than have none . If he be intolerable in the Ministry , they may use such common gifts as he hath , ( as we read even a Cicero ) but they must be of no particular Church , till they can be so on lawful terms . Even a Council of the Popes decreed , that till men can have lawful Pastors , they must forbear that Communion that supposeth such : And who can doubt of it ?

§ 21. XVII . Next , he quibbles onely with a Question [ How long shall it last ? ] Answ. How long will you be of the Parish-Priests or the Diocesans Flock , or of a Physicians Hospital ? We cannot secure men from providential changes a day , and therefore would not have them to binde themselves but on such suppositions — He that means to go to morrow to another Countrey , should consent but to this days Communion . He that intendeth here to dwell , must consent to the relation of a stated Member of that Flock till he remove , or till God shew him just cause to change that relation : till then , he should know his proper Pastors .

§ 22. XVIII . Next , he questioneth , [ Who shall degrade them that prove Heretical or Scandalous ? &c. ] Ans. The Ordainers made him a Minister by Investiture , &c. and yet without our consent he was not related to us as our Pastor , or we to him as part of that Church . And so we may withdraw our consent , and become none of his special Church-flock , and leave it to the Ordainers to degrade him if he must be degraded , as to the world and Church Universal . One would think this Answer should be undeniable . But he goeth on with his dismal accusations , p. 116. [ The particular Church-covenant is a thing of mans invention , no where required of God ; it is destructive to the Church and Souls , should it be practised . ] Ans. Seeing Covenanting and known Consenting are all one with him , what a dreadful damning sin doth the man make it for to consent to be under our Pastors Office ? Then he that would escape damnation must not consent to the office of the Parish-priest , much less of the Bishop : much less swear obedience to the Bishop : And least of all , say or swear never to endeavour any alteration . We have need to bless us from Conformity , if Consenting be so damnable . But what meant he to say [ should it be practised ? ] Doth he not know that it is practised by them all ? and so that this Judge doth damn them all .

§ 23. XIX . He next answereth two of our pretences . 1. From the Election of Ministers by the people : And saith , Election is quite another thing ; till they are ordained , they are no men in office — but persons designed — Ans. Alas , that the man that hath all this while been damning others , should not see that he hath so damned himself ; yea , and quite exceeded my damning errour . This it is to print with the zeal described Jam. 3. before men know what it is that they talk of . Note , that he is not against the peoples election ( if he be intelligible ) and yet elsewhere [ They are Rebels and no Christians ] that stand not to the King and Parliaments election . 2. Note , that he talks of one election , ( to the Office of the Ministry as such ) and I talk of another election , even to be our particular Pastor : For this Physician to be my Physician . 3. Note , that the mans bare word must , against all common use and reason , perswade us that Consent which I require is more than Election , which is much less . The Elector nominateth and first determineth of the person . Consent may come after , even in obedience to the Elector . The King electeth the Bishop , and the Patron the incumbent Parson . Doth every one that after consenteth do more ? or must we lay by our senses in believing such Writers against damning errour ? 4. Note , that he quite overgoeth the truth on the popular extream , which he accuseth others of : As if the people must elect a man to the indefinite Office of a Minister as such , which is false . Christ sent out his Apostles , and the Apostles sent abroad a converting Church-gathering Ministry without any popular election . The Ordainers must chuse who shall be a Minister ( by his consent . ) The Christian people should chuse [ and must consent at least ] who shall be the special Guide of their own Souls ; or their Pastor in particular . And the Magistrate must chuse , 1. Whom he will maintain and encourage . 2. Whom he will tolerate . How came he to think that Election is nothing to the case , as if Consent were something more ? yet is he at it again , P. 119. [ They make it another Baptism . ]

§ 24. XX. Next , he answereth our saying that [ No man can be a Pastor to a people against their wills . ] And doth he say Yea , or Nay ? Neither plainly , but talks of somewhat else , and saith , [ He is a Pastor by Office and Calling whether the people will or not , and so Pastor and people are not simul naturâ . ] As if the equivocating with the word [ Pastor ] warranted him to damn his Brethren , and confound Church-order : As [ a Pastor ] signifieth but a Minister commissioned to become the actual undertaking Guide of a particular Church-flock when he is called to it ; so this man may be called a Pastor aptitudinal , as a man is a Captain that hath Commission to raise a Troop : But as the word [ Pastor ] signifieth one that is actually the Overseer of a particular Church-flock , he is none till he have a Flock ; and in both senses Pastor and Flocks are relate and correlate , & simul naturâ : that is , in the first , simul in esse cognito & intentionali : In the later , in esse existente . But , saith he , [ God is God whether the people will or no ; and Christ is Christ , Apostles are Apostles — and so faithful ordained Ministers are Pastors . ] Ans. This is but the fallacy of the foresaid equivocation of the word [ Pastor . ] 1. God is not made God , nor Christ made Christ , nor Apostles or indefinite Ministers such by contract or humane consent : But he that said , Come out from amongst them , &c. I will be your God , and you shall be my people , and maketh some a holy Nation and peculiar people , &c. is so related to none but Consenters . Christ is an offered Saviour to refusers ; but he is not the Saviour and Head of any as Christians , or a Church actually , but Consenters : without consent we are not materia disposita receptive of the peculiar relation . A man may be authorized to be a Tutor , Schoolmaster , Physician , Captain , Master , &c. without my consent : but he is not my Tutor , Master , &c. till I consent , save aptitudinally , not actually . 2. And these relations are more dependent on humane Contract or Consent , than Gods being God , &c. But , saith he , [ If all be Pagans , the Minister lawfully ordained and appointed to convert and baptize and be a Pastor to them , is a true , full , and compleat Pastor before he have christened one soul of them . Ans. True or false as the equivocation is taken : As one decreed to be a Husband to a Wife that is yet unborn , may by the deceiving improper language of an equivocator be said to be the true , full and compleat Husband of her yet unborn or unmarried ; that is , one designed to be a Husband hereafter in a proper sense ; so here . But Pastor est ovium seu gregis Pastor : Analogum per se positum stat pro significato famosiore . Heathens are no Church ; Ergo , no man is a Pastor of them as a Church . Is he a compleat Pastor of a Flock that hath none ?

§ 25. XXI . But saith he , [ Mark the matter , you are baptized a godly man ; I have nothing against you , onely this , I cannot take you for one of my Flock , unless by a voluntary consent , &c. I must shut you out as an Apostate , or a Pagan . ] Ans. Calumny and Deceit conjunct . 1. It 's immodest calumny to say , [ as an Apostate or a Pagan ] I take him for a Christian , and on due testimony shall admit him to such Communion ( lawful ) as he himself desireth . 1. Whether as a Member of the Universal Church . 2. Or also as a fixed Member of another Church desiring temporary transient Communion here . 2. It is gross Deceit to say [ I put him out ] that refuseth to come in . If I give him no more than he is willing of , what do I put him out from ? If I take him not for a Member of my proper stated Charge , it is because he desireth it not . I thank God I never was a proper Pastor to any People against their wills , nor ever will be , were I capable of more service .

§ 26. But , saith he , [ This makes against you — Can any man forbid these people from being Members of the Particular Church that are of the Universal ? ] Ans. Self-contradiction ! Do we forbid them that are not willing , or do they forbid themselves ? Doth the Physician forbid them to be his Patients that consent not ? Do we shut them out that will not come in ? Yet he feigneth us to do no less than cast them out of the Church Universal , as casting them out of all Particulars under Heaven . Ans. Calumny hath got such a channel , that his Writing runneth commonly that way . 1. I cast them out of no Church under Heaven , who will not consent to come in . 2. Were they of no particular Church , they may be in the Universal , as I before proved , of many sorts .

§ 27. He next noteth , that it is but signified Consent that I require : But he saith , neither Christ nor his Apostles mention it , and all the Church are without it . Ans. Let us trie here whether this be true or false , and all his damning and unchristning censures fall not on the Holy Ghost and all the Churches . I. It is certain , that besides Ministers unfixed and of general indefinite work , there were by the Holy Ghost in the Apostles time fixed Churches of Neighbour-Christians setled . II. It is certain that these had fixed Pastors of their own , that were related to them specially as their special Charge , so as they were not related to all or any other Churches . III. It is certain that these Pastors had not equal authority to go into all other mens Diocesses or Parishes , and say , You are as much my Charge as any others , and play the Bishops in other mens Diocesses ; though when they had a Call , they might be Ministerial Temporary Helpers . IV. It is certain that these Pastors were specially obliged to many Offices for those peculiar Flocks , which to other Churches they were not so obliged to ( but onely to occasional help . ) Dr. Hammond nameth many of them , and so do the Scripture and Canons . 1. A constant publick Teaching them , which they owe not to all others or any . 2. Constant Government by the Keys . 3. Constant Administration of the Lords Supper . 4. Constant leading them in publick Worship , Prayer , Praise , &c. 5. A special care of the Poor . 6. Ordinary Visitation of the Sick . 7. Comforting the Afflicted , admonishing Offenders , watching over all . The Canons will tell you much , which every man oweth more to his own Charge than to others . V. It is certain that this Flock oweth a more special attendance , and account , and obedience to these Pastors , than to Strangers or others of other Churches . 1. To hear them . 2. To receive the Communion ordinarily of them . 3. To maintain them ; and so in the rest . V. I. It is certain that none of this was done or can be done without mutual Consent . VII . It is certain that this Church-state , Office , and Duty was setled by Christ's Apostles , and continued by the common consent of the Churches on Earth from age to age .

§ 28. That it was an Apostolical Establishment is plain in Acts 14. 23. They ordained them Elders in every Church . To omit the sence of 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , which in the most usual sence includeth Suffrages , it is evident that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 implieth the fixing of the several Elders to their several Churches , so as to make them the stated Elders of those Churches as their Flock in pepeculiar . Acts 20. 17. Are they called the Elders of that Church over which , as their Flock , the Holy Ghost had made them Overseers to feed the Church of God , to imitate Paul that taught them publickly and from house to house ; and was this no peculiar pastoral relation ? or were any but Consenters Members of that Church ? Tit. 1. 5. when Titus was to ordain Elders in every City , it is equal to every Church . And it stated them as their peculiar Pastors , even Bishops , as Gods Stewards over them in particular , v. 7. more than others . Jam. 5. 14. the sick that must call for the Elders of the Church , were their proper Flock , as is supposed . The Angels of the seven Churches Rev. 2 and 3. were not equally the Angels of other Churches . Phil. 1. 1. the Bishops and Deacons of the Church at Philippi had a fixed peculiar relation to them as theirs : Archippus had a proper Ministry at Colosse , Col. 4. 17. And Laodicea had a peculiar Church , v. 16. 1 Thess. 5. 12 , 13. sheweth the common state of the Christian Churches : Know them which labour among you , and are over you in the Lord , and admonish you ; and to esteem them very highly in love for their works sake . And be at peace among your selves . Here Pastors to labour , and admonish , and be over them , are to be known , owned , esteemed , beloved persons , dwelling among them , and knowing their own Flock , and the peoples duty to them and one another laid down . And shall a Christian Minister say , [ O but do not promise , no nor signifie any consent to do it , for that is to be rebaptized , and is damning to the practisers . ] The Bishops and Elders that Timothy is instructed about , were such as had their proper Flocks , and took care of them as the Church of God , that were to rule them well , and labour in the Word and Doctrine ; to preach the word in season and out of season , reprove , rebuke , exhort , with all long-suffering and Doctrine , &c. 1 Pet. 5. 1 , 2 , 3. the Elders that Peter writeth to were to feed the Flock of God which was among them , taking the oversight of them ( more than of all the world ) not by constrain , but willingly , ( and may they not signifie willingness ? ) not as Lords , but Examples to their Flocks , and Shepherds under the chief Shepherd . Heb. 13. 7 , 17 , 24. fully expresseth it , Obey them that have the rule over you ; they watch for your Souls as those that must give account , not of all the world , but of that Flock that they oversee . The same Church had Bishops that had Deacons , and some Deaconesses , Widows , &c. but it was never known that Deacons were to be indefinite Overseers of the poor of all Churches , but they had ever relation to particular Churches . This is the ordering of the Churches appointed by the Holy Ghost , Tit. 1. 5. And yet this man maketh it an abuse or injury against Christ , and overthrow of the Gospel .

§ 29. II. As for the constant judgement and practice of all Churches , I am ashamed that such usage should put me to such a work , as to prove that they ever held and practised that which this man condemneth in me . He knoweth nothing of the Churches state , and History , and Canons , that knoeth not , 1. That all Churches were Societies of Christians united under their proper known Bishops or Pastors , fixed to those Flocks by proper relation , though also related to the World and the Church Universal . 2. That the people did not onely Consent , but Chuse their Pastors , and he was to be no Bishop that had not their consent . 3. That the Laity of other Churches promiscuously had no power to chuse them , but onely those whom they were set over . 4. That the Bishops , as Ignatius speaks , were to know the particular Members of their Churches , and see that they came constantly to the Assemblies , even to enquire after Maids and Servants , saith he , by name . 5. That they made multitudes of Canons for exercising particular Discipline on each person that needed it , by long suspending some from Communion , restoring others , taking care of the poor and of all . 6. That they took not the Catechumens for the Church , but Candidates , and prepared and tried them before admittance . 7. That it was not mere baptizing that made them of that Flock ; for they preached and baptized in other places . 8. That it was not mere neighbourhood of Christians ; for there were sometime divers Churches in one City , as in Meletius case at Alexandria ; and Dr. Hammond thinks the Jewish and Gentile Christians at first had several Bishops and Churches in the same Cities ordinarily . And the Audians , Luciferians , Donatists , and others that were of the same Religion , had divers Churches , besides such as the Novatians , that had some little Doctrinal differences : and none till now ever thought that these were all the same Pastors special Flocks , and the same particular Churches . Yea , I have elsewhere cited that Council that decreed that if any Bishop neglected to convert the Hereticks , &c. he that converted them should have them ( as his Flock or Church . ) In a word , all Church-history and Canons describing their particular Churches , and their Elections , Orders , Offices , Priviledges , Discipline , &c. and limiting them that strove for the greatest , from encroaching one on another , tell us so fully that they were so many incorporate Christian Societies consisting by mutual Consent of their proper Pastors and Flocks , that Et pudet & piget , that such a task as the proofs should be thus imposed on me by a Minister .

§ 30. The same is still continued , even by the Conformists . 1. The Ministers are even to swear Obedience to the Diocesane , and the Diocesane promise it to the Arch-Bishop : And this is a Covenant and more . 2. They are to attend him at Visitations , and otherwise to express their consent to his Government , which they do not to the Bishop of the Neighbour-diocesses . 3. The Parishioners signifie their consent to their Relation to that particular Church and Incumbent , by their constant Attendance , Submission , Communion , &c. 4. The Law and Canon command their Consent ; yea , to keep their own Parishes , though the Minister preach not at all , suspending Neighbour-ministers that receive such to their Communion that come from such a Reader to them . And the Conformists say that men are bound to obey these Canons .

§ 31. Either Parishioners are supposed thus to signifie Relation-consent to that particular Pastor and Church , or not : If yea , this Accuser falsly supposeth that no Church but the Independents do so . If not , then he giveth up most of their Cause to the Brownists , that say the Parish-Churches are none : For it 's easie proved that Non-consenters are none . Thus rash men confute themselves . Nay we are all silenced for not Covenanting to the present frame of Diocesane Churches , and never to endeavour an alteration . Yet saith this man [ It is not in any of the Churches , unless Independents , neither explicite nor implicite . ] Then none should so much as implicitely shew Consent to the Relation to his Diocesane or Parish-pastor or Church .

§ 32. But saith he , ( to me with gross falsehood ) [ Your Covenant is to this effect , you shall not onely submit to me as your Pastor , but binde your self by a particular antecedent Covenant so to do : You shall dwell in the Parish , and Covenant so to do , &c. ] Ans. I wish , that though design brought the word Covenant infread of Consent into his mouth , it might not so long stick there as to choak his Conscience , to think that any use of it is lawful . Where and when did I engage any to dwell in the Parish ? If they dwell there , I never hindred any from removing . 2. But the Consent required is beforehand ! very true . The Liturgie bids men come tell the Ministers before-hand that they desire the Communion : Shall I ask them to consent to their duty when it is past ? Or can I know who are capable till I know who consenteth ? But , saith he , Why not à Church-Covenant for all other Duties ? Ans. Why not a Marriage-covenant to make one a Priest ? &c. Why not an Oath of Allegiance to make one a Coblar ? &c. Consent necessary to the being of a Relation , is one thing ; and Consent to every Duty , is another ; which yet in general all Christians should promise sincerely to perform . Must we write Books against such things as these ?

§ 33. To the Objection , [ I am not bound to take every one that comes into the Parish for one of my Charge : he hath no better answer than to tell us of Parish-bounds setled by law , and binding me to do my best for all . ] Ans. Deceitfully confounding [ Charge ] the Genus with [ Church : ] As if Heathens , and Atheists , and Papists , and Refusers are of that Church , because I have a Charge to seek their Conversion : Or as if I had no special Charge of that Church . 2. He did not see that he confuteth himself , implying that we must consent because of the Law . 3. And he forgot the many hundred years before Parish-divisions .

§ 34. His zeal at last thus swelleth [ p. 129. I do utterly withstand it , as wickedness and abomination in Gods Church : I am to die and burn at a Stake before I yield to any such thing . You make two Churches , two Church-forms , as two Baptisms — p. 130. to teach Infidelity , — &c. ] Ans. Let him that thinks he standeth , take heed lest he fall . Alas ! for the Church , whose Guides are no wiser and better men , and tenderer Conscienced than he or I , which ever is in the wrong . 1. You will make me think you are deeply melancholy ! Is it so frightful a thing for me to say , I will be no Pastor to any that consent not , as to put you into talk of dying and burning at a Stake ? Had the Martyrs been burnt , if men had been of this minde ? Did you ever know any put to death or burnt at a Stake for your Opinion ? Which is liker to be the burning party ! they that say [ We will rule none but Consenters or Volunteers , ] or they that call this wickedness and abomination , and so are for the contrary course ? Which Party hath killed more for Religion ? Reader , you see my wickedness and abomination .

CHAP. V.

I Had thought to have gone thus over the rest of his Book ; but it is such stuff , that my Reason and Conscience bid me spare my own and the Readers time . I. He begins with telling me what the Church of England is , and all is worse than nothing : Instead of telling me what is the Constitutive , Formal , Regent part , he tells me of Bishops , Pastors , Convocation , King , &c. as if he defined a Man to be one that hath a Head , Eyes , Liver , Stomack , &c. II. It grieveth me to read what he saith of Popery . 1. His Supposition that Popery is sound , if the Particular Church be a part of the Universal , having its subordinate form of Government under Christ's . 2. His Supposition of the Emperour of Constantinople's turning Christian , and becoming the Universal Prince and Bishop of his Empire , as a lawful thing . 3. His Supposition of the Pope's resigning his Place to St. Peter , if he were alive , &c. 4. His Note that to claim but St. Peter's Place is not to claim Christ's , with more such , are unwise Temptations to Strangers to fear lest London-Air have done him hurt . III. His many words about the Princes power to chuse Pastors for all his Subjects , and that if faithful , he is no Christian that refuseth to accept them . 1. Is all a bare saying over what he thinketh ; taking little or no notice of my Discourse on that subject in my first Plea ; where all that 's against us is answered before , and I will not repeat it . 2. And it shamefully condemneth his foresaid Condemnations . Is not Consent then necessary to the imposed Pastor , if not consenting Unchristen men ? 3. It supposeth that the political Controversie [ Whether the King be authorized by God to chuse what pastoral Guide all the Subjects shall trust their Souls with ? ] ( any more than what Tutor , Physician , Wife , Diet , they shall take ) is an essential of Christianity , and yet it is not in the Creed , &c. When yet it is notorious that all Churches for most Ages since Christ , if not almost all in the world to this day , were and are of the contrary minde , and so are all unchristened by him . 4. And though I urge him , he will not answer what I said of the Question , Who shall judge whether the Minister be faithful ? 5. If the Patron present a weak ignorant man , that is faithful , but of little use comparatively ; and people that feel their need , and regard Eternity , chuse before him such a one as Hildersham , Rogers , Dod , Preston , &c. he declareth them not onely Sinners , but Rebels against Christ , and no Christians . IV. His recitals of the particular Controversies in the end , take so little notice of my former Answer to him , and do but pour out much of the same , that I resolve hereafter to take as little notice of what he shall say that ringeth on like a Bell , and hath all Tongue and no Ears . He is full of his own , that must come out , he cannot stop it ; and his Oyl increaseth by pouring out : He is fuller than before , and hath no room for the reception of what he greately needeth .

There is a Law against Lying , To which we must Conform : OR Truth pleaded for Peace , Against The many Falshoods of an un-named Impleader ; who pretendeth to Answer several Writings of the Author Richard Baxter .

CHAP. I. PREFATORY . Our Accuser's Advantages .

§ 1. I Know when I wrote for Christianity , the Souls Immortality , against Popery , Perjury , Lying , Covenanting against Reformation ; and when I wrote against Antinomianism , Anabaptism , Schism , that all that I had so written was easily answered by Male or Female , at Age or under Age , Learned or Unleaned : For Nature and Parents teach Mankinde to talk betimes , and we have many Schools to teach them to read and write : And I hear by my Neighbours when they fall out about Interest or Words , that without a School or University , they can attain to copious fluent pungent Oratory , to describe each other as all that is nought ; and prove all so undeniably by vehement asseveration or Oath , that he shall pass for Criminal that will not take their words for demonstration . And what an advantage and improvement would it be to this natural promptitude and fluencie , if one were but hired or engaged to the work by an Hundred or a Thousand pound a year ; yea , and also by the stream and interest of the Army or Sect , in which he is listed by Heart and Hand , and by such necessitating interest of Reputation ( contrived by the Listers ) as that accusing others shall seem a necessary diversion of the Charge from himself and of his Conscience from disquieting him , like her that is called A continual dropping ? But yet if Academical Education should train men up to the degree of Masters or Doctors of the talking and contending Trade , what an elevation of the faculty would it be ? And yet all this is little to the pondus of an inbred enmity to the thing first , and consequently to the persons , whom they are to make and prove intolerable . And there i● one that , unseen , can prompt and furnish them with materials of all sorts ; yea , and help their Subtlety , Vehemency , and most fearless Asseve rations . I have heard of a Cambridge Doctor ●● the Chair , that was called , The certain infallible Doctor , that was so far from seeming to know what Doubting was , that he took him for intolerable that was not of his opinion . And it 's like Bonner and Gardiner were such , and that it is much of the Roman-Catholick Infallibility : for sure they durst not wrack , burn , and massacre , and ruine all sorts , for that which they did not think themselves certain of ; yea , and certainly necessary to the noble ends of Unity , Government , and Peace .

§ 2. To talk it out to the last with these infallible Talkers , is a task for one that hath as many Tongues as all they , and is as ready a Linguist , and that is like to overlive them , and that hath no better work to do , and that thinketh that they will read or hear him without the ferment of tumifying impatient Pride : Or else that it is necessary to save the endangered people from seduction , to overtalk the seducers in length and number of words , and that Souls are still unsafe and loose to the truth , as long as there are any to talk against it . I confess , that if you will hive the Swarm aright , it is usually necessary that with a lowder noise you drown the Voice of the Misleader . But I have no such sounding Voice : I am not for the Celeusma , Cannons and Guns , with the shouts of the multitude ; and that on the higher ground can easily silence me , or drown my Voice . Reason speaketh not so lowd as these .

§ 3. I was lately where it was made a question , Whether Mr. Kettleby and such other Booksellers , be not Enemies to their own Trade , by Printing such Books as the Impleaders , Mr. Hinkley's , Mr. Cheyney's , &c. The Affirmer said , It would make Books as contemptible as Ballads , and no body would regard and buy them . As when News-books were weighty and credible , most bought them ; but when beggarly Forgers took up the Trade , you may hear the Hawkers cry a Book , a Book , a Book ; News , great News , and no body regard them : This therefore will break the Book-sellers at last . The Opponent answered , [ Set but the Supposition right , and you will see how you confute your self . You suppose most men to be wise , than which nothing is more false . If you hear not Christ and Paul , hear Seneca's saying , [ A wise man must be content of few approvers . ] It is the gainfullest way that the Book-sellers could have taken : What Books sell better than Play-books , Ballads , and Romances , and Books of Tales , and Complement , and Jeasts ? What Book-sellers break faster than those that confine their Trade to rare Pieces of Antiquity , Learning , Reason , and serious Piety ? Do not men pay dearer for a place in a Play-house , than in the Church ? And I have oft heard some gentile Sons of the Church of England say , that they can profit more by a Play than by a Sermon . You think that such Books will make the Book-sellers-shops , like the Toy-shops : And what if they do ? Will there not be Children and indulgent Parents while the world lasteth ? What Shops have more trading , or seldomer break , than Toy-shops , that sell Babies , and Puppets , and Hobby-horses , and Pipes ? &c. and those that sell Perriwigs , Pide-silks and Ribbons ? You think that the Book-sellers Shops will grow like Ale-houses and Taverns which sober men will rarely visit . And what if they do ? Let those sober men pass by ; Do such Houses want custome ? The Throat will be the Throat still , and Mirth will be Mirth ; and the lightest Heads shall be the greatest number . ] And this prevailed .

§ 4. I must seriously profess , that I finde in our present Controversie , that my Opponents and Accusers have a great advantage of me , and such as I see no great probability to overcome . I mean in the quality as well as the number of their Hearers and Readers . 1. Can I expect that men of great Wealth , and Power , and Honour , and who would still fain be greater , should be as willing to believe that those are in the way of Truth and Righteousness who are by Law judged what we are judged , and adjudged to such Reproach and Punishment ; and that go under the Censures , Suspitions , and Contempt , as we have here long done , and are hunted and laid in Jayls with Rogues ? 2. Can I expect that men that never were studious or bookish , especially in matters of Divinity and Holiness , but have been bred up in fulness and pleasure , in courtship and converse with such as themselves , who will take him for a Fanatick that doth but talk much and seriously of Heaven , or Scripture , or things Divine , that scarce ever heard what a Nonconformist hath to say for himself , nor ever seriously examined the cause , or read a Book which openeth their case in all their lives . I say , can I expect that such should be able or willing to understand us ? I mean , not as if All were such ; but it hath been my hard hap to meet with few persons , even of Gentile Education , who ask me , Why do you not Conform ? that do not presently shew me in Conference , that they are quite out of their Element when they meddle with such matters , and talk of things which they never studied or understood ; and indeed do not think it belongeth to them , but to the Church : And that is , to those Church-men that the King and the Patron please to chuse ; which maketh the Papists say the Laity of the Church of England cry down our believing as the Church believeth , when they do the same by their own Church-men . The Question is but whether it be our Church-men or theirs that are to be believed ? And when Kings were on out side , it was our Church-men that were to be believed : and when they are on their side , it is theirs . And Mr. Hutchinson , alias Berry , spake harshly when he said in Print , that there was so little of conscionable Religion in the people of the Church of England , that if one were but toucht with the Conscience of Religion , he turned Puritan o● Papist . I shewed him the injury of his Speech ; but I would he had much less occasion for it . Dr. Stillingfleet told me , that there was scarce an● of his Hearers or Readers , how mean soever ther● capacities were , but could discern the weakness of no Evasions . I dwell near the Verge of his Parish . I have talkt with some of his Auditors , and enquired of many others ; and I think verily he is more in the right than I at first believed : For I finde that abundance of his Auditors hear him some once , some twice , some thrice a year , and some of them know not whether Christ be God or man , or both ; or whether he had a humane Soul , or what a man differs from a Beast ; nor what is the true sence of many ( if any ) Articles of the Creed . And I am perswaded these whom he calleth of the meanest capacity , are the likeliest men to discern the weakness of My Arguments , I have talked also with divers of his Readers , and I found that they understood this much , that Dr. Stillingfleet wrote his Sermon against the Nonconformists ; and that he is a Dean , and may be greater ; and is a man that can talk with any of us . It may be some that I have not met with know more , as being of a higher Form ; and some few I have met with that indeed know more , and those lament the Doctor 's undertaking ; and when they have read my Answer or Account , confess that they cannot justifie his Charge . Could I but tell how to get most of the Church of England to know what Religion is , and to be seriously of any Religion , and to understand Baptism , and the Lords Supper , the Creed , Lords Prayer , and Ten Commandments ; how boldly should I expect their Christian sense and candour in our Cause ? But till then , I confess that the Accusers have the advantage of us , and their Books unread will do more than ours .

§ 5. And it is a great advantage which they have got by the Oxford-Act of banishing above five Miles from Cities and Corporations all that swear not as is there required . For though the King's Wisdome and Clemency have let down he Floud-gates , and somewhat stopt the impetus of the Clergy-stream , yet it was many years before Nonconformists durst be openly seen in Cities or Corporations , much less at Court , or among great Men ; and modesty and prudence yet obligeth them to abstain from the presence of their Superiours , where the Law forbids it ; so that the Ears of Country-Nobles , and most of our Rulers , hear but what our Accusers say , and have no knowledge of our Cause , but as described by them , whose descriptions are many of them no more credible than if they said that we are Turks .

§ 6. And their Art hath got us to such a straight , that whether we speak or are silent , we are guilty ; and whatever we do except swearing , saying , and doing as they require , it shall turn to our Accusation . For instance , Do some think that Dr. Stillingfleet is in the right , that pronouneeth Damnation without Repentance against them that prefer not the purest Church , and thereupon come not to the Parish-Assemblies ? Against such they cry out [ Separatists , Schismaticks , preparing for Rebellion ; away with them , execute the Laws . ] But if others do as I do , who daily joyn with the Parish-Church in all their Worship , and Communicate in their Sacrament , and oppose Separation ; ] Some say [ Such are like Ap● that are the ugliest Creatures , though likest unto men while they are not men . ] And others say , [ We know not what to make of Mr. B. he is neither Flo● nor Fish : He is like one that will go one step on one side the Hedge , and another on the other side , to avoid Uniformity . ] And the men are not altogether mistaken : I profess that I once made it the most earnest action of my life to have prevented the building of a separating Wall , or a dividing Thorny-hedge in the midst of this part of the Vineyard of Christ , to separate one part of the faithful Ministers and people from the rest : And that I earnestly desire to see that Wall or Hedge pull'd down , that Christ's Flock among us may be one : And I will do the best I can whilst I live to get it down , that there may be no such separation . And seeing this is a work above my power , I will go sometime on both sides the Hedge , though by so doing I be scratcht , and a Thorn in the Flesh by a buffetting Messenger of Satan reprehend me . But reverend Doctors hear my Reasons : It is not to avoid Uniformity , but Separation . I am a Catholick , and not a Sectary : I am for Communion with the Universal Church : If you will hedge in one corner , and the Anabaptists another , and the Separatists another ; and so other Sects that must have their peculiars , and turn Christ's house into your several Chambers , and his Common-field into your little Inclosures ; and then say , Keep onely in our Room , and go into no other ; Keep onely in our Enclosure , and go not on the other side of the Hedge : I shall tell you , that I abhor your separation . I have business on both sides : I believe the holy Catholick Church and the Communion of Saints , and not onely your Enclosure , and the Communion of your Conformists : I have some business on your side the Hedge , the Law and your own expectation will tell you part of it : I see some of my Fathers Family with you . I have busines , on the other side the Hedge : There are as good as you ; and such as I am neerly related to , and commanded to love as my self , and to receive as Christ received us ; and not to doubtful disputations , ( to prove or approve all your Jurisdictions , Assumptions , Oaths , Covenants , Subscriptions , Reordinations , Formalities and Ceremonies . ) Your thorn-hedge hath enclosed but one corner of Christs Vineyard , and I have business in the rest : It hath separated Parents from Children , Husbands from Wives , as to Church-communion , Masters and Servants , Brethren from Brethren , Neighbours from Neighbours : If they that made the hedge can justifie it , let them do it , it will be tryed before a jealous God ere long ! if those of you that in learned Books and Sermons exhort us ( with somewhat hissing Rhetorick ) to separate from those on the other side the hedge , can prove that themselves are all Christs Church , and that God would have us separate from all save them , and give over Preaching and all publick Worship of God , till we can conscionably conform to all their Impositions : I say , if all these silencing Preachers can make good their accusation of the Brethren , and their conclusions , let them that undertake it speed as they perform it : but for my part , I will not separate from Father , Mother , Brother , Friend , and all good Christians save a domineering Sect , because that Sect will else call me Separatist . I was wont to draw the Map of the Church Universal as one Body or Field , or Vineyard of Christ , hedged in indeed round about from Infidels , and distributed into thousands of particular Churches , as Streets and Families in one City : But if any will say , Hold Communion with one Street or Family , and separate from the rest , and then say that you are a Schismatick for not being for that odious Schism ; I will hear such , as I do the people that talk through the windows on the west side of Moor-fields , when they say that all are mad or Schismatical , that are not in their Cubs and Chains . Mr. Cheney was never there I think , and yet it was ( per album an atrum nescio ) revealed to him that I am downright for an Independant Covenant , which hath twenty Arguments extant to batter it , and prove it guilty of irreligiousness , or somewhat worse : And they say ( for I am not acquainted much with their practice ) that the Independent bind their flock to hold Communion with none but their own Sect , nor to depart without leave from their particular Churches . I am apt to believe that they are slandered ( for whoever falls sick , I will first fear the most epidemical or common disease : ) but if it be no slander , I profess that I will never be of a particular Church , which claims to be the universal , and will forbid me Communion with all save them . And if in this the Prelatists agree with the Independents , I am against the separating , Sectarian , Schismatical presumption of them both . I take the Kitching and Cole-house to be parts of the house , and I have sometimes business in them both . But I am most in my Study and Chamber , and I will take both Chamber and Colehouse for Schismticks , if ever I hear either of them say , I am all the house , or [ it is lawful to be in no other room . ] Lord pull up the separating Schismatical Thorn-hedge , which hath cursedly divided thy family and flock .

CHAP. II. The Impleaders Truth examined .

§ 1. CHrist saith , that the Devil is the Father of Lies ; and doubtless he hath subtilty to excuse them and improve them : and it is a great advantage to them , that they are so disowned by humane nature , that it is taken for an injury to humanity , to charge any man to be a Lyar ; and a Ruffian will say it deserveth a challenge or a stab . You will think it a paradox , that natural dislike should be turned to the advantage of a sin . But it is but natural light convincing the understanding , not changing or fortifying the will against it . And therefore it is but pride of reputation and impenitency , that is indeed the fortress of the sin .

§ 2. Accordingly it hath many times been my hard hap , to have such Books written against me , ( and that by men whose Reputation is not undervalued by themselves or their followers ) as were to be answered chiefly by a Mentiris from end to end , if it would not seem by custom to be uncivil . And to tire the Reader by turning a Mintiris into a civil long Parenthesis , and this as frequently as gross falshoods are openly said or intimated , is tedious , even when necessary . With one I was put to use my Arithmetick , and to answer him by numbring the untruths asserted : But I have forborn it with others far more guilty , lest their reverence and power should make truth intolerable , whose passion or interest , or errour , had made gross Lies seem true and necessary .

§ 3. This Impleader hath been taught too much by the same . Master ; and had he not spent part of his Book on Doctrinals , where his Errata are but mendae , but been all Historical where there are too many Mendacia , I might have been put to the way of answering before-mentioned : But be they Mendae or Mendacia , they need aniendment , and the Reader may need an antidote against them .

§ 4. Some beginning we have on the Title-page , [ pretending to shew the Reasons of the sinfulness of Conformity . ] Mend. 1. I pretend in my Plea to shew but the matter of Nonconformity , and Historical Narrative of our judgment and matters of fact , passing by the Reasons or Arguments that must prove the things unlawful ; though Reason may be gathered by the Reader , from the matter or History itself .

§ 5. The same is repeated p. 1. [ He pretends to give Reasons for the sinfulness of Conformity , M. 2. ] And he overpasseth the chief part of my Book , in which I state the case of Government and Separation , on pretence that it is [ a dark and dirty way in which I have lost my self . M. 3. And a little will satisfie him , that regards such an easie , dark and dirty answer .

§ 6. He guesseth that kneeling at the Sacrament [ for that was then discourst of ] was one and the chief of those many heinous sins of Conformity : Mend. 4. It seems the man was present . Reader , look to thy belief when thou art among such men . 1. There was not a word spoken then against the lawfulness of Kneeling at the Sacrament . 2. I openly declared that I held it lawful , and none of my Brethren contradicted . 3. The thing which we proved unlawful then was , [ Casting those faithful Christians out of the Church-Communion in that Sacrament , who dare not take it kneeling , for the reasons which cause them to think it sinful . ]

§ 7. Impl. [ He will not urge the case , but barely mention matters of fact 〈…〉 much less do we here give the reasons of our Cause . ] He dare not be so bold yet as to venture to displease us . But this Hypocrisie is so thin , that the weakest eye may look through it . ] Mend. 5.

Answ. 1. The Printer put [ urge ] instead of [ argue ] which he was told in the Errata . And he maketh the errour his own , by feigning the words to be mine . 2. If I have disputed the Case by Reasons , Why did he not cite them , and tell where ? 3. He alloweth the Reader to take him for a Calumniator , who will judge the heart which he knoweth not , and bring no proof of the hypocrisie , which he saith the weakest eye may see . — Indeed the weakest is liker than the strongest to see as he doth . 4. I will shew him three Reasons , why it is not like to be Hypocrisie . 1. Because there are severe Laws against all that shall deprave the Common-Prayer Book , or accuse Conformity of being sinful , which is Excommunication ipso facto , &c. And also Printing such a charge , might have cost both Printer and Writer dear : And the Book was written divers years ( as many can witness ) before the Act that restrained the Press expired . And is it not credible that every man loveth himself , and is unwilling to be ruined ? I knew how easily you are displeased , and I felt a little what you can do when you are displeased , and others felt more . And is it hypocrisie then to say , I feared to displease you ? And verily , I was afraid by it of occasioning your wrath and contentious Writings against many others , and making the breach wider , which I desired to heal .

2. When it 's visible in the Book that I avoid Argumentation , doth not that prove that I said true ?

3. The third Proof , if God will , is yet to come : when you see my Arguments added to the History , you will confess that it was not Hypocrisie to tell you , that I used them not before .

§ 8. Impl. [ For whereas the Right Reverend and Learned Bishop of Eli had told Mr. B. as he confesseth — That he would petition Authority , that they might be compelled to give their Reasons , he there saith , [ To answer the earnest demand of our Reasons by you , the Lord Bishop of Eli , I have published an Historical Narrative of our Case and Judgment . ]

Answ. Had he not mentioned weak Eyes , you might wonder that he saw not how he here confuteth his own falshood : when in the words cited I profess to give but the Historical Narrative of our Case and Judgment , and not the Arguments or Reasons for it : But he thinketh , [ If the History be given in answer to him that demanded the Reasons , then the History containeth those Reasons ; ] Negatur Sequela : The matter of Fact must go first . The Bishop demanded of me an account of our Non-conformity . This is the beginning of an Answer . The Reasons may come next .

§ 9. Impl. [ And if he may be believed , they are not only Mr. Baxter's Reasons , ( m. 6. ) but of many others ( m. 7. ) for p. 3. it is said [ We that publish this here , give an account of our own judgment , how far we hold it lawful or unlawful to gather or separate from Churches , or to differ from what is established by Authority .

Answ. The man knoweth not the difference between giving an account of our judgment in Thesi , and in Hypothesi . If I tell you in what cases I hold it lawful or unlawful to separate from Churches , or how far humane Power may go ( as I have done in the second Plea ) is that to tell what I take for sin in our Conformity , and the Reasons of it ? What if I shew how far Lying is unlawful ? Doth that say that Conformity is Lying , &c.

§ 10. Impl. [ Where is that allowance from Authority , which he pretends to have so long waited for , and begg'd on his knees ( m. 8. ) And where is that care not to displease or provoke the Conformists , by shewing the many heinous sins in their Conformity ( m. 9. ) When without leave of God ( m. 10. ) or man , he not only endeavours to displease ( m. 11. ) but to ruine us . ( m. 12. ) If any thing may be , this is worse than his hypocrisie , it is mere distraction and rage ( m. 13. ) When our common Adversaries the Papists , &c.

Answ. 1. It was leave that I desired , but I never said , I begg'd it on my knees : but that I would gladly do it , could that prevail .

2. I never shewed the heinous sins of the Conformists , but over and over professed that I accused not them , nor meddled with their case ; but only said , How heinous a sin it would be to us to Conform , till we knew more reason for it than we do !

3. That it is without leave of God , that we give a reason of our not conforming , I take for false , while our Superiours so long and earnestly commanded it , and it is so necessary to abate the dividing odium raised against us , Rom. 12. 18. If it be possible , as much as in you lyeth , live peaceably with all men . ] And if we are taken for intollerable Malefactors , is not undeceiving our Accusers and Haters a necessary means of Peace ?

4. It 's false that an endeavour to undeceive the offended , is an endeavour to displease them .

5. And it is more palpably false , that [ I endeavour their ruine . ]

6. How false is it then , that [ this is distraction and rage ? ] And what more necessary to unite us against the common Adversaries ? What Physicians hath this poor Nation , that know no way to unite us , but laying us in Jails with Rogues , till we can believe all to be lawful which they impose ?

Reader , Pitty the case of this poor Land ! What hands are we fallen into ? What false Doctrine is charged on us ? What is the Crime that we have committed ? We are forbidden to Preach Christ's Gospel , though we were solemnly devoted to it by Ordination , under the Penalties of great Mulcts , and Imprisonments , and ruine , till we will do that which after our best enquiry we verily judge would be our heinous sin . We forbear many years to tell them so much as what it is which we dare not to do ; till at last , the Bishops themselves tell us , They will petition Authority to constrein us to it : And Parliament-men long askt us , What is that you stick at ? And when after about seventeen or eighteen years Silence , I do but tell them what it is , the Clergy-men are so displeased , that they tell me , that It is distraction , and rage , and an endeavour to ruine them . When I never moved to put one Priest of them out of his Benefice , nor Bishop , Dean , Archdeacon , Canon , Prebend , out of a Farthing of his maintenance , nor one Bishop from their Lordships , or Parliament-Power ; much less did I ever motion the silencing of any one of them , or making them pay Fourty Pound a Sermon , or laying them in ●ayl , as we are used ; and yet they cry out , that we endeavour to ruine them . The Lord pity his poor Flock ! What a case are we in , when our Pastors seem to think , that they are ruined , if we be but suffered to Preach Christ's Gospel , and to live out of a Jayl : and think that if we offer to refel the Slanders that render us odious to them , and do but speak for our Ministry and Liberties , as every Malefactor is allowed by the Judges to speak for himself , we seek the ruine of our Clergy-Accusers ? Do not Heathens abhor such Injustice as this ?

My Purse is less to me than my Ministry ; and all that any man can take from me , will be much less than Fourty Pound a Sermon : And yet if any men on the High-way , or in my House , should not only take away all that I had , but afterward prefer a Bill against me , as seeking their ruine , because by Reason I intreated them to forbear , and that in vain , it would be one of the oddest Cases that hath come into Westminster-Hall . I was once neighbour to a valiant Knight , who yet was so gentle , that when the Hookers in a Moonshine-night were hooking his Cloaths and Goods through the window , and he lay in Bed and saw them , he lay still , and mildly told them , Gentlemen , This is not well done , These things are not yours ; If you are taken , you may be hanged for it . And by that time his Sermon to them was done , they had got what they came for , and were gone . But I never heard that they entred a Suit against him , for seeking to ruine their Trade by his reprehension . But if any of you have such a trade , as will not endure the Plea of innocent Sufferers for Peace or Mercy , without your ruine , I would some one that you have more regard for , would perswade you quickly to lay by that trade , lest when Christ is Judge , and saith , Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these , you did it to me , your Clergy will not save you from his Sentence ; were it but the devouring of Widows houses , it is not the longest Liturgy that will excuse you by a Legit ; nor will you escape with Burning in the Hand , unless Repentance now prevent it . The evil Servant that stuffs his guts , and beats his Fellows , presuming on his Lords delay , you know is threatned with a sharper penalty .

§ 11. Impl. p. 4. No person of any Note , that I have heard of , in all that Party who were in places of Trust and Publick Employment , did on the late Test refuse to communicate with the Church of England .

Answ. 1. How far doth your hearing reach ? 2. How many of that Party have you known in such places of Trust ? I suppose you know , when the Test in the Corporation-Act was imposed , that Party were then turned out of all Corporation-power ? In some places not two of the old staid in : And is it any wonder then , if none of that Party be in such Power ? 3. And is Communicating in the Lords Supper all the Conformity that is scrupled ? And what 's all this to our Controversie ?

§ 12. Impl. [ When all our United strength is too little to withstand the attempts of our common Adversaries ; it is a wonder to me , with what Confidence and what Designe he should not only proclaim Conformity on the Ministers part to be impossible , but endeavour also with all his might to withdraw the Laity from our Communion . ] m. 14.

Answ. 1. Is it a Truth , that one that holdeth Communion with your Church , and speaketh and writeth for it , and disswadeth none from it , doth endeavour with all his might to withdraw the Laity from it ? Can you not forbear this ill custome a few Lines together ?

2. Ex ore tuo : See , Reader , the man confesses the need of our United strength . Hold him to that word : And I repeat , If he and the rest of that Tribe do believe , that it was morally possible that the two Thousand Silenc'd Ministers , and all that came after them , should believe all the things which I named in my Plea for Peace , and all the rest which many scruple , are lawful for them to do ; I wonder not at any Confusion , Calamity or Corruption that shall befal a Church that is conducted by such men ! Who would have thought that there had been such men among Christians , and Pastors of a Reformed Church ? But I do not believe that there are many such , that think it morally possible that we should all believe all Conformity lawful ; they would never else have trusted so much to Mulcts and Jails , as to think their Church undone without those Helps . They are not such strangers to Sence and Conscience : It is the wearing out of the present Generation of Non-Conformists , and alluring or affrighting Youth from following them , which the men of any Brains have trusted to .

Judge by these Evidences of this mans Wit and wondering . 1. By the great number of the things which we judge sinful : They might dispute men into their Opinion in some few differences , that cannot in so many . 2. The Sins feared are so heynous , as that Conscience will not quickly universally swallow them . 3. The number of the Dissenters : To dispute a few men out of their Judgments in difficult cases proveth hard , much more many hundreds or thousands . 4. Consider the quality of the silenced Ministers : Could they think that such men as Anthony Burges , Sam. Hildersham , Mr. Hughes , Dr. Manton , Dr. Seaman , &c. did not consider what they did , neither in their Health , nor before their Death ? Did they never read or hear what might be said for the New-Conformity ? Had they not Learning or Wit enough to understand it ? Or had they no Conscience living or dying ? So many hundreds that after their best enquiries , and hearing all , remain Non-Conformists , are unlike to be all brought to Conform . 5. Judge by old experience : Were old Hildersham , Ames , Dod , and hundreds like them , brought to Conformity heretofore ? Mr. Sprint , Dr. Burges and some others were , but more were not . Did not even the Westminster-Assembly of old Conformists forsake it assoon as they could ? 6. Judge by the change of the Case , and the Writings even of the old Conformists : Such things are put into the New-Conformity , as Bilson , Hooker , Usher , and other old Conformists have written against . And would they also repent and change their minds , if they were alive ? I again profess , that I am bound in Charity and Reason fully to conclude , that had Usher , Bilson , Hooker , Jewel , Preston , Sibbes , Whately , Bolton , and all such , yea Dr. Jo. Burges , Sprint , and such others of their minde that writ for the old Conformity bin alive , they would all have bin Nonconformists to our new Impositions . 7. Judge by the means that are used to convince us : Is there any thing said that hath such cogent Evidence as to convert so many hundred men to your Opinions ? Did such men as Dr. Twisse , Mr. Herle , Mr. Gataker , Mr. Vines , &c. want the Instruction of our present Lords , to make them wise enough to Conform ? When I know none of the Conformists writings that have so much as named some of the things that we think worst of . 8. Judge by present Experience : Why is it not done , if it be morally possible ? Have you not had near twenty years Trial , by your Reasonings , Preachings , Writings , Reproaches , Allurements , Threatnings , Canons , Fines , Jails , Informers , crying out for execution of the Laws , &c. and is it yet done ? Have there not since more ( of the Laity ) turned from you , than have turned to you ? Will not Experience convince you ? 9. Judge by the great diversity of mens conditions and capacities , which I have elsewhere opened . Will ever men of such different Capacities , Educations , &c. agree in such and so many things ? 10. Judge by the requisites to such a Concord . It must be by bringing all the Ministry to a higher degree of Knowledge , or Conscience and Honesty than all the Nonconformists . For it can be nothing that you think keeps us from Conforming , but Ignorance or Badness . ( Dr. Asheton undertaketh , as going to the bar of God , to prove that it is Pride and Covetousness ) And how can you hope to make us all so much Wiser and Better than we are ? Do you believe that the seven Thousand that had Conformed to the Directory , and staid in by Conforming to your Law , 1662. were so much Wiser and Better than the two thousand that were cast out ? Or that the greater part of your Countrey-Priests now ( if the lamenting people wrong them not ) do Conform , because they know more , or are Better men than we ? If it be so , he is unworthy to be a Pastor , that knoweth not how hard a matter it is to make all the Ministers of a Nation so much wiser and better . He is blinde that seeth not that it is Fines , Jails and Death , that our Prosecutors trust to . And will true Conscience be convinced by such Arguments ? Would you your selves change your minds in Religion , if you were but Fined and Imprisoned ? If so , you are men of no true Religion : If not , why expect you it from us ?

§ 13. But what am I doing ? Will it not more tire than profit the Reader , if I should number abundance more of his Untruths ? I will step to his concluding Farewel to me , and then see how he justifieth the trade , by pleading for Equivocation , Pag. 128. [ You gave several intimations that the King was Popishly affected , as Bishop Bramhal affirms , ] Mend. 15.

Answ. Why did not the man tell where and when ? I have Printed the contrary in the time of highest Usurpation , that the King was no Papist . Is he not a Calumniator , unless he prove it ? But he saith [ Bishop Bramhal affirms it . ] Answ . A man that never saw me : why did he not cite Bishop Brambal's proof ? But see what this sort of men are come to ! Do they think it enough to warrant their slanders of us , because one of their Archbishops hath slandered us before them ? What Credit then is to be given to such mens History or Reports ? Is this it in which the Authority of Archbishops consisteth , that they must be followed in slanders ? No : It is not their Obedience to Archbishops , but their Conformity to a calumniating Spirit : For Brambal's Predecessor , Arch-Bishop Usher ( a man honoured by all good men that knew him , for Learning , Piety , and Honesty ) was of no such Authority with them ; but we are scorned for conforming to his Judgment . But you see that a Calumniator with you is no singular person . They are not ashamed to tell the world , that their Archbishops lead them , and are as bad as they .

§ 14. Impl. p. 128. [ You applauded the grand Regicide , as one that prudently , piously and faithfully , to his immortal Honour , did exercise the Government . ] Mend. magn. 16.

Answ. Reader , Do not wrong this man so much , as to think he is the Father of this . He taketh it up but in Conformity to his Fathers and Brethren that have oft printed it before him : and he must keep company and be Conformable . Alas ! It is not one or two such men as are the Guides of Souls in England : But what ? Had he no pretence for it ? Yes , more than for many of the rest . He that undertook to be a Lying Spirit in the mouth of all Ahab's Prophets , never undertook to deceive them without any pretence . I have somewhat else to do than to write the History of my actions in those Times , as oft as any such man will tell such a Story as this .

In short , I thought then that both sides were faulty for beginning the War ; but I thought the Bonum Publicum , or Salus Populi , made it my Duty to be for the Parliament , as Defensive against Delinquents , and as they profest to be only for King , Law and Kingdom : When at the New Moddle they left out [ for the King ] and changed their Cause , I changed from them , and was sent by two Assemblies of Divines to do my best though to my utmost labour and hazard , to disswade them . Cromwel having notice of it , would never let me once come near him or the Head-Quarters . I continued on all occasions publickly and privately to declare my judgment against him as a rebellious Usurper till he died . But being at London a year or two before he died , the Lord Broghil ( since Earl of Orery ) would needs bring me to him ; where I dealt so plainly with him , in demanding by what Right , against the Will of almost all the Kingdom , he pull'd down our lawful English Monarchy that we were sworn to , and the Parliament , as cast him into such Passion , as broke out in reviling many of the worthiest Parliament-men , that he knew me to be familiar with . The last time the Earl of Orery saw me , he told me , he had told the King of that Conference , and that he should love me the better while he lived , for my Faithfulness . He and Lambert and Thurloe were ( silently ) present . A Twelvemonth after , Sir Francis Nethersole would needs dispute me into Repentance for being for the Parliaments Cause , by way of Writing : I told him , that the sad effects were enough to make us all suspicious ; but I would give him those Reasons that had moved me , with a true desire to know the full truth , that if I had erred , I might not remain through Ignorance without Repentance : He wrote to me , that in the mean time , seeing I was satisfied against Cromwels Usurpation , I should go to London to set it upon his Conscience to perswade him to restore our present King : I sent him word , that as he took me for his Adversary , so his Conscience was not so easily perswaded to give up such a prey ; and that this was not now to do ; I had been lately with him , and I and others had tried such perswasions , or the like , in vain . While I was preparing my Papers for Sir Francis Nethersole , cometh out Mr. Harrington's Oceana , contriving the Settlement of a Democracy , which they called a Commonwealth ; and Sir H. Vane was about another Model : I wrote somewhat against them , and Mr. Harrington printed a Paper of Gibberish , scorning at my Ignorance in Politicks : Against him I wrote my Political Aphorisms , called A Holy Common-wealth , in the beginning pleading for the Divine Universal Soveraignty , and next for Monarchy as under God ; and next ( seeing they were all on New Modelling ) I told them , how Piety might be secured and promoted by Monarchy ; and to get Sir Francis Nethersoles Answer for my fuller satisfaction , I added as to him , as I promised , the reasons that had moved me to be for the Parliament . While I had purposed the later part first , Oliver died , and his Son Richard was set up while I was writing the Book : Before I had finish'd it , the Army had pull'd down first his Parliament , and next Richard himself ; I never had known a Parliament more enclined to Piety and Peace . My deep displeasure against the Madness of the Army , that had rebelliously pull'd down all Power , King , Parliaments , and at last him whom they set up themselves , drew me first to write the sad Meditations in the end , and then a sharp Preface to the Army against their Rebellions : In which I aggravated their Crime in the last instance among the rest , in putting down suddenly Richard their Protector , whom they had lately Courted and Set up : and I used these words , [ It was written while the Lord Protector ( prudently , piously , faithfully , to his immortal Honour , how ill soever you have used him ) did exercise the Government , ] &c. Now so congruous are these mens Principles and Practice , that they fear not to tell the world in Print , and that successively from one another , that I [ said this of the grand Regicide ] Oliver , whom I so openly and so deerly opposed : And a putarem , or a non putarem , will excuse a Volume of such tricks , if the cheat or falschood be discovered . They might easily have seen by the whole scope of that Preface , that it was Richard , and not Oliver , that I spake of . It was not Oliver that they misused and pulled down . And I praised him , to shew the evil of their Rebellious Proceedings . It was not Taking the Government , which he had no Right to , which I praised ; but his short Exercise : And I thought him praise-worthy on many accounts .

1. He never meddled in any War against the King , notwithstanding all his Fathers Interest and Power , but was suspected to be for the King . 2. We never heard that he sought or expected the Government , but it was thrust upon him . 3. When he was offered help presently to apprehend them that supprest him ; he refused it , and renounced the Government at a word , resolving not to shed a drop of blood to keep that which was so thrust upon him . 4. He set himself by a Parliament of pious peaceable men , to have supprest Heresie and Confusion , and to have restored Order , and Equity , and Peace . 5. The Kings chief Friends about us told me , that Richard was for the King , and that some were Treating with him to Restore him : Though I confess , I hardly believed that his Self-denial was so great . I thought all this had so much laudable , as to aggravate the madness of that Army , who when they had destroved the King , and pulled down the Parliament , did also put down him whom they had Set up and Sworn Fidelity to themselves . His want of Right did not justifie their Perfidiousness . Thus the Conformist grounds his Accusation .

§ 15. Impl. p. 128. He repeateth a Leaf of my own words to Mr. Bagshaw , against the Armies Rebellion against King and Parliament , and setting up the Protector , and the rest of their Injuries ; not seeing that he confuteth his own Calumny , while to prove that I am for those actions , he proveth that I have condemned them as heinous sin : See here how strongly these men argue !

§ 16. Impl. p. 131. [ His applauding the first Boutefeus , as glorious Saints in Heaven , his vindicating the Authority and War of the Parliament against the King , his pertinacious adhering to the Covenant , crying down the Royal Martyr as a Papist , after he had sealed the sincerity of his heart to the Reformed Religion with his Blood ; and the crying up his Murtherer for a prudent , pious and faithful Governour : His Principles in his Holy Commonwealth , and his present practices in defending Schism , and so sowing Sedition , &c. Cry aloud for Repentance and Retraction , &c. ]

Answ. Here are his Doctrinal Principles exemplified : He hath now got the art of linking and condensing falshoods so close , that I must cease numbring them , while one is made up o● so many .

1. The first Accusation went before , p. 88 , 89. where he mentions Brooke , Pym , Hampde● , and White , &c. saying , [ What if they are gone to another place ? — You were ashamed to continue them in your ( Book ) being left out in your later Editions .

Answ. 1. I left them out , because the Book could not be Licensed else : And should I not rather leave out a few Names , than cast away the whole Book ? Had I done it in Repentance or to please such as you , you tell me how it would have been taken .

2. I never spake with one of them ; but I have heard so credible testimony of their conversation , especially of Hampden and White , that I am far more confident that they are in Heaven than that such as you will ever come thither . Impartial men of both sides honoured them ; I heard an antient grave Gentleman , that was no Phanatick , nor accounted a Puritan , but a sober honest man , say , 1644. [ If I might choose what person in all the world I would be , I would be John Hampden . ]

3. It is not only Bishop Jer. Tailor , but Politicians commonly that acknowledge , that It hath not pleased God to make Politick Cases of the degrees and forms of Power so easie to us , as that all good Christians can decide the Controversies about them . It 's commonly agreed , that God hath not forbidden Monarchy , Aristocracy , Democracy , or Mixt Government ; nor made only one of these to be lawful . And it is past Controversie then , that it is National Fundamental constituting Contracts , Laws or Customs , and not any express Scripture , that must tell us de facto & jure , what is the Species of each Countreys Government . It is not in the Creed , Lords-Prayer , Decalogue , or Sacraments : Therefore the knowledge of it is not of absolute Necessity to Salvation : I finde it not in the condition of the Covenant of Grace . Methinks they that say Heathens may be saved , should grant it of Christians that know not when a sinful division falls out between King and Parliament ( and that with many difficult circumstances ) which it is that should be then obeyed or defended . Christ was drawn by Hypocrites to pay Tribute to Caesar , rather than offend ; but he would not be drawn to justifie his Dominion over the Jews . Paul commands Obedience to the Higher Powers as of God , and as watching for our good : But he would not be drawn to declare , Whether it was Caesar or the Senate which was the Higher Power , when they came to be divided in their Commands .

4. I have produced too large Testimony from Antiquity , how ordinarily the Bishops of East and West too quickly owned and praised the Usurpers of the Empire , when once in possession : Not only the Synods in Martius time that owned Maximus , but Ambrose and Theopl . Alexand . to Eugenius , and Gregory the first , and many Western Bishops , and ordinarily far most of the Eastern Bishops presently owned Usurpers , that came into the Empire by the Murder or Deposition of their Predecessors . And are all these Fathers and Christians damn'd ?

5. The Liturgie requires that when such are Buried , they are openly pronounced saved ; that is , That God of his great Mercy hath taken to himself their Souls out of the miseries of this Life , and that we hope to be with them : We must be Silenced and Imprisoned if we will not say this , and subscribe to it , and reproached if we do : This is the Conformity which they would have us yield .

6. Do you not tremble your self , when you question whether they be not gone to a worse place and revile us for the hopes of their Salvation ? Doth not your Conscience ask , If such men be not saved , what will become of me , that deliberately write such Volumes of Falshoods against God's true Servants , and their present serving him , as if they must cease Preaching and all Church-worship , till they dare Conform to all imposed ? O why will you condemn your self in others !

7. I finde many of your selves honouring Bishop Jewel , Bishop Bilson , and Mr. Hooker , and such others that held the Principles which those men went upon ; and you never yet , that I heard of , reviled any man for hoping that they were saved : No nor Grotius , nor Barclay , nor the common sort of Lawyers , and Politick-Writers , that have said more of the Cases in which Kings may be Resisted and Deposed , than they did , or than I ever said . If such Principles may stand with the Salvation of Grotius , Hooker , Bilson , Althusius , Alstedius , Willius , &c. Why not of theirs that I have mentioned ?

8. You know , I suppose , that it was mostly Episcopal men that began the War ; Lords , Commons , and Souldiers on both sides . ( If you will not know , and can be ignorant when you list , your Will hath a freedom which mine hath not . ) And are you sure that your Conformists also are damned ?

9. You hereby teach them that are confident that the Laudian Clergie were the chief Causers of the War , to conclude therefore that they are damned . And so our Clergy on both sides will be like Gregory the Seventh's and the Emperour 's in Germany , first exciting and encouraging the Princes and People of the two sides , and then taking Oaths against each other , and lastly damning one another ; till a Reverend Council of Bishops Decreed , that all the Bishops on the Emperours side should be Deposed , and the Dead digg'd out of their Graves and burnt .

10. You will open the eyes of the people to see what manner of Spirit you are of , and that it is no wonder if you cannot endure us to Preach and Live by you ; who take us for Criminal for hoping that men are saved , who otherwise were of most exemplary Lives ; but being in point of Politiques on the Parliaments side , and doing accordingly , while they professed to arm only against Subjects , holding the person of the King to be inviolable . I finde not that even in the Barons Wars , or the Wars between the Houses of Lancaster and York , no nor King Stephens , the Censures were so high . Anselme Archbishop of Canterbury is Sainted , that was against his King .

§ 17. The second Charge is , my Vindicating the Parliaments War against the King ]

Answ. 1. I believed then that it was not against him , when their Commissions were for him . 2. I proposed my Reasons upon a Learned Knights demand , requesting satisfaction by an Answer : And had you or any of you ever since confuted them , it had been more charity than only to Recite them and Condemn them . But I have over and over publickly declared my revocation of that whole Book , ( though not of all that 's in it ) and wisht that I had never written it , for more Reasons than I will now name to you . 3. My Judgment about the King's Power , and our Obedience , I have fully declared in The Second Plea for Peace .

§ 18. The third Accusation is , [ His pertinacious adhering to the Covenant . ]

Answ. 1. The man knoweth that I own not the imposing it , specially as a Test for the Nations Concord , it being an engine of Division so imposed . 2. That I own not the taking it so imposed . 3. That I deny that it obligeth me to any thing that is evil , yea or from any Obedience to the King in things lawful , nor to any thing but what I have a former obligation to from God himself . 4. But I confess that I dare not say , that it obligeth no man to repent of his Sin , nor to be against Popery , Prophaneness or Schism , nor to endeavour any amendment of Church-Government . And I will not deny , but that I take Perjury to be no indifferent thing ; which of these is the Crime of Adherence , he tells me not .

19. The next Accusation is , [ Crying down the Royal Martyr as a Papist . ]

Answ. I have said , Till he tell me where , and how he proveth it , I must take him for a gross Calumniator , and wonder not that he Conformeth . In my Key for Catholicks he may see where I prove the contrary , that the King was no Papist . I will confess that which he knoweth not : 1662 , and 1663. when the Kings Letter in Spain to the Pope was Printed out of Mr. de Chesne by Prynne , I was struck a while with doubt and suspicion ; But I soon considered , 1. That the words promised but Endeavours for Unity . 2. And that it was written in the Spaniards power , in a streight .

§ 20. The next is , [ Crying up his Murderer . ]

Answ. A repeated malicious falshood .

§ 21. The next Accusation is , [ His Principles in his Holy Commonwealth . ]

Answ. 1. I oft told you , The Book is revoked long ago . 2. The Principles which I own I have published as aforesaid in the Third Plea : and he doth not confute them . 3. Of the Wars I spake before : What other doth he name ? Bishop Morley recited many of them ; and the first as I remember was , that I say , [ That pretence to unlimited Monarchy is unlawful , or Tyranny , because God hath Limited all Humane Power . ] If this be Heresie or Disloyalty , I hold it still : I mistake much , if any Kings have Power from God to command all their Subjects to blaspheme or deny God or Christ , or to renounce his hope of Heaven , or to worship the Devil , and sell his Soul to him , nor to murder Father , Mother , Wife or Children . I will venture to dispute this with any Conformist . But as to the harder question , Whether Kings may kill any or all their Senators or innocent Subjects for nothing , or burn all their Cities , or take all their Wives , Children and Estates , I will leave it to Statesmen to debate . I am sorry that ever I wrote so much about their matters .

§ 22. The next charge is , [ His present practices in defending Schism . ]

Answ. Prove it , or number it with your Slanders . What is the Schism ? Is it Schism to say , That it is unlawful like Atheists to cease all Publick Worship of God , till Conscience can finde it lawful to Conform ? Others think that the contrary is both Schismatical and Atheistical . Can you prove that I am for Silencing faithful Ministers , and making partition separating hedges in the Vineyard of Christ ? My Rule is , to go no further from any Christian than he goeth from Christ , or would force me to sin for his Communion .

§ 23. The next charge is , Sedition ; that is , not giving over God's Worship , till I can swear , say and do all that is imposed . Where is the proof of all these Accusations ? But their method of Justice is , first to do execution ( casting out 2000 ) and next to justifie it by an Accusation behinde our backs , and next to bring their Witnesses , when we are dead or forbidden to speak ; and they are one anothers Witnesses . This mans proof is , that Bishop Bramhall of Ireland said it : The next mans may be , that This man said it : Dr. Ashetons proof was , that the Debate-maker said it ; and who said it to him I know not .

And p. 100. This man hath an infallible witness , Bishop Morley then of Worcester . And what saith he ? Why first , That I did what I could to make the King odious to his people . But where 's his proof ? It 's enough ; The Bishop said it . 2. I sowed the seeds of Sedition at Kederminster : The proof is the same ; the Bishop said it . 3. The Bishop taught him to adde , [ I my self have heard him , in a Conference in the Savoy , maintain such a Position , as was destructive to the Legislative Power of God and man . ] But what if the Bishop spake as falsely , as if he had said that I pleaded for Mahomet ? Where is your proof then ? I after Printed the words with the Dispute of the Dr's , to which they were an Answer : And I have in my Second Plea , in a Disputation of Scandal , vindicated them . Let any man of brains read both , and believe the Bishop and you if he can . But , Reader , if such mens renewed Accusations cause me yet to Print that Answer to the Bishop's Letter , which for peace I cast away ; blame not me , but them that force me to it : I am for peace , but they are for War .

§ 24. But what good will it do the Reader , to have this mans Falshoods detected and numbred ? They are so many and so gross , that it is a troublesome work ; as p. 107. [ Your Principles which assert , that the King may be Deposed . ]

Answ. Burn any Book of mine with scorn , where I ever asserted any such thing : But if it be a Forgery , believe such men accordingly .

So p. 112. [ Refusing the Tests of Obedience , which require only the disclaiming of Rebellious Principles and Practices . ] Answ. See my Profession and Renunciation , second Plea , Chap. 3 , 4 and my Confutation of Hooker , Chr. Direct . Par. 4.

Pag. 112 , 113. He joyns with those that would bring us into the Plot , and fathers his Accusation on the Acts of Parliament against us .

Pag. 113. He saith , I have [ a better opinion of the Papists , than of the Conformists , ] because I say , I had rather be saved from the Gallows by a Papist , than hang'd by a Conformist .

So p. 132. [ To withdraw your avowed Communion ] Answ. A Fiction : witness the Parish-Assembly .

Pag. 133. Your Practice continueth and encourageth Separation from our Communion . ] False .

Ibid. Cartwright , after he had written as much as he could against Conformity , repented and Conformed at last . ]

Answ. A Fiction : No more than I Conform . Many a time have I been in Warwick , where he last lived Master of the Hospital , and the antient people there and at Coventry knew the contrary . If to joyn in the Liturgy and Sacrament ( and perhaps rather than be Silenced , to wear the Surplice ) be Conforming , you abuse many whom you reproach and silence as Nonconformists .

Pag. 134. He mentions my Positive opposing and hindering their Communion . The Book is much made up of such untruths in matter of Fact .

§ 25. His Postscript is his Ingenuous Conjectures , if not Proofs , that I am a Liar and an Hypocrite , in the dating of my Prognostication ; and that it was written 1680. Answ. Should I abuse the Reader by a particular Answer to them ? That it was not written 1680 , many persons that saw them can witness . Will his Reasonings make me ignorant of such a matter of my own fact ? All that I know of it is this , 1. As far as I can remember , it was shortly after the Savoy-Conference , that the first Copy was written ; but just the Month I do not remember . 2. Finding this Copy among my rude neglected Papers , I wrote it fair in 1671. And my Memory is not so strong , as to be sure that I altered not a word : For I cast away the first rude Copy . 3. After that , I thought it had been lost , not seeing it some years : Till Mr. Matthew Silvester told me , that I had long ago lent it him to read : I did not think it worth the Publishing . But one of judgment that he shewed it to , thinking otherwise , I added a few Lines in the End : This is the Truth , and if it be the Impleaders interest to believe it to be false , let him use his Intellect and Pen accordingly , I 'le no more strive against him .

CHAP. III. His Answer to the first Plea for Peace Examined .

§ 1. BEcause the great Charge against th● Non-Conformists is , 1. Their Not Conforming . 2. And that till they can Conform they cease not Preaching and all publick Worship o● God ( which is to live like Atheists , and chus● Damnation . ) The first thing that I did in the First , Plea , was to Declare our Judgment about Churches , Ministry , Church-Communion and Seperation , ( in what Cases we hold it sinful or lawful . ) To my great wonder , almost all this i● past over by all my Accusing Answerers that ●●●● have seen , as if it had bin little to them . And they go on to take it for granted , that we are guilty of Schism and sinful Separation , or in wondering that we do not grant it . 2. And as to the second part of our Charge , I have seen none yet but Mr. Cheney and this Impleader that pretend to bring proof of the Lawfulness of the●● Points of Conformity which we avoid . And to Mr. Cheney I gave a Reply , which I judged satisfactory ; and this man where they agree repeateth the same things , as if I had not Replied ; and therefore I refer him to that Reply , rather than write the same over again . But in some things they as much differ from each other as from me .

§ 2. Pag. 4. He premiseth , 1. What are the Parts of the Book to which we are to declare our Assent and Consent ? Answ. All things contained and prescribed in and by it . Are not these words plain ? We are not for Equivocation : What he saith of this , is answered to Mr. Ch.

2. Pag. 9. He saith , [ It is granted by the Non-Conformists , that the Common-Prayer Book , as it is now amended and abstracted from the Declarations and Subscriptions required by the Act of Uniformity , is better to be assented to , than as it stood before .

Answ. 1. I know none of those Non-conformists : It 's better in some things ( as the Translation of the Epistles and Gospels ) and worse to them in other . 2. But what 's this to the Case ?

3. Pag. 11. He saith , [ Non-Conformists grant , that it is better to submit to the practice of a doubtful small evil , than to forbear a necessary great Duty . ]

Answ. This I answered to Mr. Ch. I know one of them that grant it . They suppose that a doubtful Evil ] is really evil ; and the Doubt will not make it Lawful ( or Better , ) but Less Evil than a greater : And that no Duty should ●e forborn , while Duty , nor Evil done . But ●e must not forbear Duty till we can do it without adherent evil : But we must do our best to ●●rbear all-evil .

Ibid. He speaketh against over-strict Interpre●tions of Impositions . Answ. I stand to Bishop ●anderson's Solutions , whom he citeth , which ●e in the end of The First Plea for Peace .

Pag. 12. 4. He saith , [ Practice is the best Ezounder of the Law : many Laws are worded for terrorem iniquum petere , ut quod aequum est ferant ; Lex non curat minima . Neither the Lan of God or Man is sollicitous about Circumstances and the lesser Punctilios . ]

Answ. 1. When they either comprehend the Least in Generals , or name them particularly , we think they extend to them : And that he that breaketh one of the Least , and teacheth 〈…〉 all be called Least in the Kingdome of ●●●● Mat. 5. 2. The seven thousand Ministers ( and more ) that Conformed to the new-made Law 1662 , did not stay till Practice expounded it . 3. And whose practice must it be that is the Exposition ? When your practices much much differ ? 4. I think you abuse the Law and Lawgivers , by making them first injust , iniquum petendo , and next unintelligible , and lastly opening a door for disobedience .

Pag. 13. 5. He noteth that we are not agreed what is unlawful in Conformity .

Answ. 1. Nor are we agreed of all forbidden in Gods Laws ; Must we therefore forbear no sin ? 2. We are agreed ( as far as I know ) of all the many particulars enumerated in the Plea : Deliver us from what we are agreed against . 3. The Bishops of England are not agreed in how many things we must differ from the Papists : All are not for so much of theirs as the Greeks , or as Grotius , or Bishop Bromhal , or Mr. Thorndike , or Will . Forbes of Edenborough were for . And what of that ? Must not Popery be renounced till you are all herein agreed ?

53. Pag. 14. He noteth what I said of the root of the first difference between the old Nonconformists and Conformists , One part cleaving to the Scripture , and the other being for reteining all that came in before 600 , and common to them with the Greeks , [ which ( saith he ) doubtless was the sounder Opinion ; so that the Foundation of Non-conformity was laid on a false Principle , and they that built thereon frequently raised Sedition , &c. ]

Answ. 1. They that thought each mutable circumstance of Worship must have a particular Command in Scripture , erred ; but there were few such , at least of any Learning : But those that took the Law of God in Nature and Scripture , for the only and perfect universal Law , did not erre .

2. So many Corruptions in Doctrine , Worship and Discipline came in before 600 , and are reteined by the Greek Church , that we cannot make that the measure of our Reformation : If you are for all [ that is common to the Papists and Greeks ] How prove you that you may Silence and Imprison all that are not ?

3. And if this be the Rule , you are yet ill reformed . It is more than three and three Ceremonies and Additions which you yet want , which the Papists have : I could name such a Catalogue as might make English-men better understand what your Conforming Principles are , and what must be further expected when you are able . And the Council of Florence will tell us , when once England is of the Greek Religion , how possible it is to step over to the Pope . But why doth not the Church of England conform to the Greek Church now , if it be so great a Duty , as will warrant the Silencing and Imprisoning of Refusers ? I hear but of few that grow in love with their Worship , since the Greeks had a Church in London ; especially Scholars that understand them .

4. But what if the first Non-Conformists erred ? What 's that to us any more than to you ? We reverence the Primitive Example more than theirs ; and never took them for the Masters of our Faith .

5. Your Charge of their Sedition is much more sharply laid on the Protestants in general by Pateson , the Image of both Churches , and by Philanax Anglicus , and many others , than you lay it on the old Non-conformists : and all parties can talk at that rate against others , as Pryn doth of Prelates Treasons .

§ 4. Pag. 15. Of Assent and Consent to all things , and Subscription that nothing is contrary to the Word of God . 1. He tells us , What men have subscribed . 2. That we must allow it a just and favourable Construction .

Answ. I grant that worthy men have subscribed , and that as favourable a construction must be made , as will stand with Truth and Justice . But this doth us no good .

§ 5. Pag. 16. Impl. [ All Lawgivers do leave to the Judges and Magistrates a Power to interpret the doubtful Letter of the Law , and to mitigate the rigour of its execution , in order to the publick good . ]

Answ. 1. I have answered this to Mr. Cheney : There is an Interpretation which giveth us the general obliging sence of the Law ; which Conscience must judge by , if we will subscribe : and this belongeth only to the Lawgivers , as I have proved . And there is an Interpretation which only directs the Judicial Sentence , in this or that mans particular Case , as whether he shall be punished as guilty or not ; and this is it that belongeth to the Judges : If the Judges will put a false sence on the Oath of Allegiance and Supremacy , I may not take them in that sence . Their Expository Power must direct their own Sentence , and that the Execution ; but if I be put to Swear or subscribe my self to any imposed words , no Judge can Absolve me from taking them in the usual sence , unless the Law-givers give another . This is our Rule , and we dare not Equivocate .

2. As to your confused talk , that [ Magistrates can dispense with the lesser parts of the Law , ] it is useless to me : The Lawgivers can expound , suspend and change the Law : The Executive Magistrate can suspend his own Sentence and Execution in some cases ; but not the sence of the Law , nor allow my Conscience to change the sence .

§ 6. Impl. [ All that is required by the Act , is unfeignedly to Assent and Consent that there is such a measure of Truth and Goodness in the Book of Common Prayer , as qualifies it for the publick worship of God . ]

Answ. 1. Gratis dictum . Who authorized you to say that [ Assenting and Consenting to all things contained and prescribed ] meaneth not as it saith ? but only an useable measure of Truth and Goodness ? Is this the usual sence of [ All things , &c. ] If not , where have the Law givers given us another ? If you can think so , why must all be silenced that think otherwise , and dare not be so bold ?

§ 7 Impl. [ The title of the Act is the Key — If Uniformity be observed , the Act is satisfied . ]

Answ. 〈…〉 is not de fine only , but de medio , to secure Uniformity , by profest Assent , &c. All Lawyers know that Laws have usually more in the Body than is in the Title .

§ 8. Impl. [ They say , 1. Assent implies the Truth , and Consent the Goodness . 2. All things they say , meaneth all words and expressions . 3. By [ to the use ] is meant those things that come not into use . 4. When it 's said , in sensu composito , conteined and prescribed in and by , &c. they extend it to all things that are conteined as well as prescribed . ]

Answ. I see that Wit is useful to many ends : Here are so many and rare Expository Evasions , as Escohar or Bauny could not have excelled in them .

1. If Assent signifie not Judging all to be true , it hath lately got a new signification : Consent indeed signifieth oft an object practicable and existent for some good motive of Consent .

2. If the [ all things ] in the Books , mean not [ all the words ] but [ things ] distinct from [ words ] I would we could know what they are : Sure it is not the Paper and Ink that the Parliament mean . Prayers and Forms are words . Actions or Ceremonies that are not words , are but little of the Book , or rather none of it , being but the matters commanded by it .

3. There is no word or part of the Book that was not made for some use . If not , how shall we know which words are useless ?

4. I do not think that there was a man in the Parliament when the Act was made , that ever thought of this subtle Exposition , that any man would take [ all conteined and prescribed ] only in sensu composito ? And so that we profess Assent to nothing contained in the Book , but that which is prescribed also . If so , is not [ conteined ] an idle word when all men know that all that is prescribed is conteined ? And yet by that time prescribed Doctrines , Calendars , Rules , Forms , &c. are taken in , they will prove more than my Assent and Consent will reach to .

§ . 9. Whereas the Commons brought the Lords to agree with them , for not limiting the sense of the Declaration of Assent and Consent to the Use of all ; he answereth , 1. That the Bishops then were more our friends than the Commons : As if the Bishops always went with the major Vote of the Lords .

2. He giveth Reasons , why it is meet that men Approve as well as Use what they do . And what else is it that we say , but the Using without Approving , satisfieth not the imposition ?

§ 10. He citeth my words , That we may take an Oath , whose words in the plain and proper sense are lawful . But the Question is , Whether these be such ?

§ 11. II. pag. 21. He defends the words , [ Easter-day on which the rest depend , is always the first Sunday after the first Full-Moon , which happens next after the 21 of March . ] Which being oft false , he saith , 1. Being a General Rule , it may be allowed to have some exception . Answ. And so they say [ Always ] and they mean not always , but sometimes .

2. He proceedeth : [ The Rubrick doth not say , [ a Rule ! but [ Rules ] in the Plural : and where the first Rule fails , the defect is supplied in the second . ] Answ. What may not such a Wit prove true and lawful , if the man be willing ? 1. The Rules contained in that Section under that Title , are only this , and one for Advent and other Sundays , and none for Easter but this . 2. To say , This is always so , and after to say the contrary , is but to say , One is true , and the other false . Always excludeth your acknowledged Falshood sometimes .

3. He saith , The Defect never cometh into practice . Answ. It 's an useable Rule , and so you covenant to practice it , if the Use of all things be intended : and so you must keep two Easter-days .

Object . 4. [ Mr. B. might as well have objected against the Almanack , which saith February hath 28 days . ] Answ . So I should if it had said [ always ] and [ only 28. ]

§ 12. III. Impl. p. 22. defendeth these words , [ We are fully perswaded in our judgments , and we here profess it to the world , that the Book as it stood before established by Law , doth not contain any thing contrary to the Word of God . ] And 1. he blameth me for omitting the condition of a just and favourable Construction , &c. Answ. I undertook not to transcribe the whole Book , which is in so many hands : A just construction is still supposed , and as favourable as will stand with Truth . I have oft enough told him the Rule by which we Interpret words , viz. The ordinary sence in which they are understood by men of the profession which they belong to , unless the Speakers otherwise expound them . If he thought this Rule to be false , he should have disputed that . If on pretence of [ favourable Interpretations ] you resolve to put a good meaning on any words which your Interest perswadeth you to take , nobis non licet , we cannot do so : else we could take any Oath in the world , while all words have divers sences , and are arbitrary signs , which we can put what sence upon that pleases us .

§ 13. Impl. p. 22 , 23. [ He well knows our Assent to the words there mentioned is not required , nor could be intended . Answ. Utterly false : I know it not , but verily believe the contrary .

Impl. For it is only a profession of our Superiours that were then in being , what their judgment and belief was , &c. ] Answ. So the Rubrick and the 39 Articless were the judgment of your Superiours : But are not they , and that Preface , parts of the Book ? If not , tell us how we shall know what are parts of it , and to what we must consent ? And must you not Assent and Consent to all things in it ? I like not those Equivocations , which will make Oaths and Promises to be but what the Speaker please .

§ 14. Impl. [ Mr. B. doth very ill to recount those mistranslations in the old Book , which are amended in the new , &c. — which Mr. B. knows to be false , ( viz. that Assent to them is required . )

Answ. 1. How did this bold man know my thoughts ? I know these words to be a deliberate Printed Falshood , and this man to have so many such , as that to me he is incredible .

2. When the New Book justifieth the old , as having nothing contrary to the word of God , and you must Assent to all things in the new one , I think you assent to that justification . If you mean otherwise , tell men your own thoughts ; but if you would any more be believed , speak not falsly of other men , whom you never knew .

3. The old Translation of the Psalms is still used , unreformed . Do you not Assent to that neither ?

§ 15. He tells us that [ Psal. 105. 28. the two Translations are not contradictory , They were not obedient to his word , and they Rebelled not against his word : Because some Translaters understood it of the Egyptians , and others otherwise . ]

Answ. And had the Text those contrary senses ? If not , is not one of them contrary to the Text ?

§ 16. Impl. p. 24. [ The same Answer will serve the exception against the Collects of the old Book , which for divers days together used the word [ This day . ] Answ. And the same Reply will serve : You dare not say that on Christmas-day , Whitsunday , &c. [ This day ] signifieth not the very particular Day , but the Week or Time of the Year . And hath not the same Collect the same sense on the next days ? Are your words like Cyphers , that change their power by such additions ?

§ 17. Impl. [ Little reason have they to object against any words or phrases in the Liturgy , who are still fond of singing Psalms according to the Translation of Strenhold and Hopkins , &c. ]

Answ. Little reason hath any man to be forward to believe your Affirmations , that are so used to falshood . I finde none so willing to use other Versions as they that you say are fond of this : many use the Scot's Version , many Barton's , some Rous's , and some Mr. Patrike : And the reason why they no more forsake the old one , is not because they are fond of it , but lest they too much displease the Church of England , which hath allowed no other , and those that are apt to turn all Reformations and Varieties into reproach .

§ 18. IV. To what he saith of the Apocrypha , I answered already to Mr. Cheney , and will not now repeat . The Objections against the Fictions in Tobit are Bishop Barlow's , now of Lincoln , in a Learned M. S. written to satisfie Mr. Dodwell .

§ 19. V. Our great doubt about the abuse of Godfathers , and excluding Parents from their proper Office , he saith nothing to that needs any reply ; but what is in the Book which he answers , and in the Reply to Mr. Cheny , he answers as if he understood not the question : and feigns the Liturgy to lay that on the Parents which it doth not , but excludes them from it , and laies it on uncapable persons .

§ 20. Impl. p. 30. [ Mr. B. excepts against the Rubrick , which saith , It is certain by Gods Word , that Children , which are baptized , dying before they commit actual Sin , are undoubtedly saved . ] This being a Rubrick , and never coming to Use in the Publick Worship , it cannot reasonably be thought to be imposed as an Article of Faith on others , but only as the judgement of our Superiours .

Answ. I perceive the Parliaments Act and Declaration is to you a mere Nose of Wax ; It meaneth what you will , or none can tell what . 1. Are Rubricks of no use ? Yea those that determine of Doctrines , which are not only de Fide , but matters of Salvation , certain undoubted Salvation of all baptized Infants ? What is of Use if these be not ? 2. Are such Doctrines of certain Faith no parts of the Book ? nor contained in it ? Is not your Superiour's judgment imposed on you to Assent to ? What then is imposed to be believed ?

§ 21. But p. 31. he citeth Texts as proving the truth of the Article .

Answ. Not a word to the purpose . He seems not to understand that it is not of the Salvation of true Believers Infants that we doubt : But whetherthis be true of all without exception that have such Godfathers as ours , that take not the Children for their own ; even the Children of Atheists , Infidels , Heathens , Mahometans , &c. all which the Minister is bound by the Canon to Baptize , if offered .

§ 22. VII . Impl. 31. [ Mr. B. is the first that hath accused the Church of England of instituting a second Covenant of Grace . ]

Answ. Still more untruths . I have no such Accusation : It is but for making and imposing on pain of Rejection , &c. another Sacrament , or a Sign too much Sacramental , of the same Covenant of Grace , which Baptism is the Sacrament of . 2. And of this he cannot truely say that I am the first .

I proved from the imposed words and ends , that it is appointed to the uses of a Sacrament , but indeed not by Christ , and therefore is but a humane Sacrament ; And I answered his Objections to Mr. Che. which he taketh no notice of .

He cites me as saying , that Parents may offer their Children to Baptism , though they cannot have it without the Cross , it being the Ministers sin , and not theirs . And what then ? Is it therefore none of the Ministers sin , 1. To consent to it . 2. To use it . 3. To refuse to Christen Children whose Parents dare not submit to it . 4. Nor the Bishops to silence Ministers that refuse such Conformity ?

§ 23. p. 34 , 35. He would explain the Rubrick by Art. 27. Those that rightly received Baptisine , &c. and Christian Proprietors may offer their Children , &c.

Answ. 1. The Canon forbiddeth the Minister to refuse any as aforesaid ; What 's this then to the rest ? 2. Right coram Ecclesiâ giveth the Church Power to receive them : But it must be Right coram Deo to Remission , &c. that must assure their Salvation : which we cannot prove that the Children of Atheists , Sadduces , or Infidels have . 3. The Conformists are here themselves divided : One part of them give that certain Salvation only to all baptized Infants , which the other give to all in the world , baptized or unbaptized . See Mr. Che. and the Answer .

§ 24. VIII . About our Refusing Children , whose Parents refuse the foresaid Crossing , and abuse of Godfathers , he saith , p. 36. [ 1. That in private Baptisme , and consequently in other cases of Necessity , the Church alloweth the omission of Cross and Godfathers . 2. That they have a low esteem of the Sacrament , that for this withdraw . ]

Answ. 1. Your Consequence is contrary to the Canon : And 't is known that the Church allows not Ministers to forbear them on pretence of such Consequences .

2. Much less do they allow the refusal of Dissenters for such a Necessity .

3. And it may be no contempt of the Sacrament , when men are afraid of a sinful use of it though they mistake .

4. Nor is it such a fault of the Receiver or Parent , that will warrant a Minister to deny them Christendome , or a Sacrament by your selves judged so necessary to Salvation .

§ 25. p. 36. He returneth to the case of Crossing , as a transient Image in worship , &c. I think few will judge his Answer worthy of a Reply .

§ 26. p. 37. IX . The next is , [ That no man should come to the Sacrament without a full trust i● God's Mercy and a quiet Conscience . ] I would make nothing worse than it is : I do not think the Imposers meant that all men should stay away till they had a full trust and quiet Conscience . But that 's the plain importance of the words : Here therefore it is more ill words than ill meaning , which I do deny Assent and Consent to .

§ 27. X. Pag. 38. About compelling each Communicant to receive thrice a year , he saith , 1. It is the Statute , not the Minister . 2. It is only the duely qualified .

Answ. 1. The Bishops are Statute-makers . 2. Nothing more common with the Canoneers , than to call to Magistrates to execute such Laws . 3. The Canons and Liturgy require it . 4. It is not true , that it 's only the duely qualified : It is all that are not Naturally , but Morally unfit , that is , that are at Age , and have Reason and Health . If the Priest should put away any as unfit , he must accuse them to the Chancellor , and they must be Excommunicate and lie in Jayl while they live , unless they Communicate . So that here is a plain Exposition . 4. There are multitudes unfit to Communicate , whom the Minister cannot put away , that were they not constrained , would keep away themselves ; as secret Atheists , Infidels , Sadduces , Socinians , Arians , Seekers , secret Fornicators , Thieves , Drunkards , &c. that are conscious of their Sin and Impenitence : But rather than lie in Jayl , will all Communicate .

§ 28. Impl. [ What deplorable times are we fallen into , that our highest Priviledge should be counted a great grievance , &c. ]

Answ. Still deceit . 1. Is it our highest Priviledge to have unfit men constreined to prophane holy things , and profess themselves what they are not ; and the dogs forced in , that should lie without ? Is Christ's Discipline against our highest Priviledges ? 2. Who knoweth not that Infidels , Sadduces and wicked men do account these Priviledges to be none : Cure them of their Contempt , and you need not force them by a Jayl . Till then , is it the Pastors that refuse such till they voluntary seek it , or the Contemners of these Priviledges , that are to be reproved ? Christ giveth pardon and life to none but desirous Consenters ; and if you will seal and deliver the promise of it to those that will but prefer it to a Jayl , and make up your Churches on such terms , we dare not imitate you . The Church-Keys exercised are , as Tertullian speaketh , Praejudicium futuri judicii , and should intimate to men , who they be that shall be let into Heaven , or shut out : And to say , Come all and take Christ , Pardon and Life , who will rather take the Sacrament than lye in a Jayl , is like another Gospel .

§ 29. XI . The pronouncing Salvation to all that they bury , save the three excepted sorts , ( Unbaptized , Excommunicate , and Self-murderers ) is the next . And 1. he will not have the words to signifie Salvation . The words are [ Forasmuch as it hath pleased Almighty God , of his great Mercy , to take to himself the Soul of our dear Brother here departed . ] And [ we give thee hearty thanks , for that it hath pleased thee to deliver this our brother out of the miseries of this sinful world . ] And [ That we may rest in Him ( Christ ) as our hope is this our brother doth . ] If all this signifie not Salvation in your judgment , it doth in ours : We accuse not you of deceiving Souls , at a time when it will take the deepest impression ; but we only tell you , we dare not Assent and Consent to that , which to us would be false Equivocation , and that in so serious a thing : And if the difference be but Grammatical , doth it deserve our Silencing and ruine , to believe that those words import Salvation ?

§ 30. But 2. he saith , [ Christian Charity teacheth us to hope the best of all that die in the Communion of the Church . ]

Answ. It is not Christian Charity which is contrary to the Christian Verity and Covenant : Nor that which tendeth to undo the living by false hopes : Hobbes and such others as oppose Fundamentals , deride Christianity , or the Immortality of the Soul , some by Writing , some by common Talk , do die in the Church of England : I have heard Preachers lament their Numbers , Impudence and Increase ; but never heard one of them Excommunicate , nor brought to publick Repentance . All die in the Church , that Communicate rather than lie in Jayl and be ruined ; yea thousands that will not Communicate , notwithstanding such Severities ; When in a Parish of 8000 or 10000 Communicants , no more ( even on a Whitsunday ) than about 100 Communitate , though the Minister be one of the best ; yet the rest are still in your Church . We desire the highest degree of Charity . But such a judgment of mens future state , though called Charitable , seemeth to us so fearfully uncharitable , that it is one of the greatest things in which we seem to differ : And I will not shew the rise , and the import and tendency of it , lest Dr. Fullwood , and the Reflecter on Sacril . Desert . say again , that I gather too hard Consequences from our Difference . But nobis non licet , Must we be Silenced and ruined for want of such Charity ?

§ 31. XII . Silencing such as think the Surplice unlawful , is the next , pag. 42. And he saith , [ If any man , against such Authority and Arguments , should think the Surplice unlawful , it is better he should be Silenced , than that the Churches Peace and Order be disturbed , or antient Laws abrogated . ]

Answ. You have owned it : If it be well done , you may partake of the Reward ; If ill , of the Punishment . Qu. Whether consenting so to Silence 2000 ( and 9000 if they had not Conformed ) will not make your Reward greater , than if you had consented and subscribed to the Silencing but of one ? His blood be on us and on our Children , were the words of Factious Zeal , that escaped not without punishment . Paul that consented to the death of Stephen , and hunted others , saith , He was mad , yea exceeding mad against them . Christ never laid the Order and Peace of the Church , nor the Preaching of the Gospel on such things ; nor ever encouraged any to do it . Of which see Bishop Jer. Tailor in the words largely cited in my Second Plea .

§ 32. XIII . Though Athanasius Creed as to the damnatory part was that which Mr. Dodwell scrupled , I will not answer this mans equivocating Exposition of it , lest I be thought to tempt others to blame the Creed itself , which I honour . Where he saith , p. 43. [ I frequently and falsely accuse the Conformists of Socinian or Antitrinitarian Doctrine : Let him tell us where , or else I accuse him as a false Accuser . But it 's his mode .

§ 33. XIV . Whereas all must Assent and Consent to read the Common-Prayer every day of the year , ( if not specially hindred ) he tells us what reason there is for it : But 1. will it not necessitate the omission in many places of more necessary works ? 2. What encouragement have we to embody with that Tribe , who all Consent to this , and not one of multitudes of them do it ? Is such Conformity tolerable , and our Preaching intolerable without it ?

§ 34. XV. Pag. 46. He calls it a Calumny that I say the Liturgy is defective and Disorderly .

Answ. I did in 1660. draw up a Catalogue of the mere defects and disorders , but never offered it , to avoid offending them .

He tells us , 1. of the disorders of the Directory . ( And had he proved it , is that a justification of the Liturgy ? ) 2. And also he tells us of the defects and confusions which were in Mr Baxter's eight days exploit , ( our Additionals , or Reformed Liturgy , 1661. ) when as neither this Accuser , nor any of the Bishops or Dissenters then said one word of particular accusation against it , nor any other that ever I knew of to this day , save an impertinent quarrel of Mr. Roger le Strange , that we used not more imposing words , and such trifles .

§ 35. XVI . Next comes the Profession of the Antiquity of Three Orders in the Preface of the Book of Ordination and elsewhere , p. 47. And he citeth me , Christ . Direct . p. 127. as against my self ; falsly intimating , that I assert three Orders , because I am uncertain whether there be not divers Degrees in one Order . I cited out of Spelnian the Canons of Aelfrike , shewing that the Church of England , even in times of Popery , took Bishops and Presbyters to be the same Order , as many Papists-Schoolmen do . And the man should have known , that it is not the Bishops of a particular Church that I mentioned in my Direct . but only such as have the care of many Bishops Churches .

§ 36. XVII . He next defends the Scenical Call to the people , to [ come forth and shew reason , why the person may not be Ordained . ] As if he knew not , that it is not the sence of the words that is questioned ; but that this insignificant Ceremony should be set in the place of the ancient demand of their free consent over whom the Minister is set , to seem as if they had still that liberty , when it is no such matter ; nor do the people , whose Souls he is to have the charge of , know any thing usually of his Ordination ; nor at his Institution , which sets him over them , have they any Call . Nor are so much as these Shews used at the Ordination of Bishops , which by the old Canons was void without the Peoples Consent .

§ 37. XVIII . Of the words , Receive the Holy Ghost , &c. he saith less than Mr. Cheny , whom I have answered .

§ 38. XIX . So have I there answered ( p. 11 , 12. ) what he saith for the Oaths of Obedience to Archbishops , Bishops , Chancellors , &c. 1. It 's one thing to Obey them , and another to Assent to the Oath of Obedience . 2. And it 's one thing to swear Obedience to them , as exerci●ing the power of Magistrates under the King ; and another thing as Laymen exercising the power of the Church-Keys , &c. And I have elsewhere cited divers old Canons , that condemn such Oaths as dangerous .

§ 39. XX. In the 20th Chap. to Mr. Cheny I have abundantly answered what he saith here about keeping men from the Sacrament , and informing the Ordinary .

These be [ the Number ] of our Exceptions which the Impleader could finde , though the rest were as plainly written .

§ 40. XXI . As for our Objections against the Declarations and Oaths required by Act of Parliament , because it is not the sence of the Liturgie , but of an Act of Parliament that we doubt of , he refers us to the Executioners of the Law for our Instruction , ( their natural way of satisfaction : ) the Justice and Jailor I suppose . Did these satisfie him to Conform herein ? Doth he take such Arguments for unanswerable ? Why did he pretend to defend the rest , which are imposed in the same Act ? These are greater matters than the Ceremonies , and need as clear a Justification .

§ 41. But that you may see the measure of his Knowledge , he can tell you , that our mistake is wilful , and an act of pure malice and revenge .

Answ. Our Rule oft mentioned is agreed on by Casuists , viz. To take such Oaths , Promises and Professions , in the sense of the imposing makers of them , ( if they are our Rulers ) and unless they give us another sense , we must take the ordinary sense that those words are used in to be theirs . Therefore we take [ on any pretence whatsoever ] and [ those Commissioned by him ] and [ any alteration of Government in the Church ] and [ not at any time endeavour ] and [ no obligation on any other person ] as well as [ Assenting and Consenting to all things conteined and prescribed ] to have that meaning , which not only our Parents that taught us to speak , and our Masters and Dictionaries , and the use of such as we hear talk , hath taught us to take such words in ; but also in the sense of the Lawyers and Law-books which we are acquainted with , unless any odde persons differ from the rest . And this sagacious man hath found , that this Exposition is a wilful mistake , in malice and revenge . Just as others of them can prove before God , that it is through Covetousness that we Conform not ; viz. Two thousand Ministers ( England knoweth of what sort , though the Accusers do not ) have forsaken all Church-maintenance , and their Rulers countenance , and put themselves under a Law that mulcts them 40 l. a Sermon , banisheth them from Cities and Corporations , lays them in Jayl , &c. reproacheth them as seditious ; and all this in Covetousness , Malice , and Revenge . I have seen a Child throw away his meat in revenge , but he returned to it in less time than 18 years : I have heard of a woman that cut her throat , and another that drowned herself and Children , in a revengeful passion against her drunken cruel Husband : but sure , if she had 18 years deliberated , it would have calm'd her passion : But that 2000 such Ministers should chuse ruining Fines , and Poverty , and Jails , and wilfully damn their own Souls by sin , and all to be revenged on Parliament or Prelates , is somewhat strange ! Especially when it is that which that Parliament and Prelates themselves are pleased with , who chose the terms . What kinde of Revenge hath our Malice found out , which destroyeth ourselves and pleaseth our Afflicters !

§ 42. And here p. 55. he falls with scorn on my Book of Concord ; and that his Book may be Conformable to itself , describeth my terms of Concord by downright fiction and falshood ; as if he had thought none would ever open the book to shame his Calumny . He tells you , that the result of all is , That every Pastor be independent , free from any superiour to controul him , and have an arbitrary Power , and arbitrarily exercise the power of the Keys without Appeal ; to have the power of Ordaining who they will , the power of altering the Laws in Church and State , &c. All which I have expresly written against at large .

Besides what I have written , 1. For Bishops in each Church . 2. For Archbishops or general Overseers . 3. For Synods . 4. Had it been no more than what I have written for the Magistrates Governing of all Pastors and Churches , it would prove the falshood of this mans Assertion .

Yet that you may see that his Charity and his Veracity are proportionable , he hence inferrs , p. 57. [ Did ever any Bishop aspire to such Tyranny as this , the Pope only excepted ? Is not the King and whole Nation greatly culpable not to trust themselves with the ingenuity of this people , &c. ]

Answ. Reader , which is liker to be guilty of Tyranny , 1. We that desire no power but to plead God's Law to mens Consciences . 2. And that but with one Congregation . And 3. with no constrained unwilling persons , but only voluntary Consenters . 4. And to rule over none of our Fellow-Ministers . 5. And only to be but Freemen , as Schoolmasters and Philosophers be in their Schools of Volunteers , that we may not against our Consciences be the Pastors of the unwilling , or such as we judge uncapable according to God's Laws , but to use the Keys of Admission and Exclusion as to that particular Church . 6. And to do all under the Government of the Magistrate , who may punish us as he may do Physicians , Schoolmasters , or others , for proved mal-administration , and drive us ( not from , but ) to our Duty . 7. And to be ready to give an account of our Actions to any Synod , or Brethren that demand it , and to hear their Admonitions and Advice . Yea , and to live in peaceable submission where Archbishops or General-Visitors are set over us ; and upon any Appeals or Complaints , to hear and obey them in any lawful thing belonging to their Trust and Power . 9. And if we be judged to have worngfully denied our Ministerial help and Communion to any , we pretend to no power to hinder any other Church or Pastor from receiving him . 10. And if we be by Magistrates cast out or afflicted for our Duty , we shall quietly give up the Temples and publick Church-maintenance , of which the Magistrate may dispose , and without resisting or dishonouring him , endure what he shall inflict upon us , for our obedience to God . This is our odious Tyranny .

2. On the other side , our Accusers , 1. Some of them are for power in themselves to force men by the Sword , that is , by Mulcts and corporal Penalties , to be subject to them , or be of their Church and Communion . 2. Others are for the Magistrate thus forcing them , when the Bishop Excommunicates them . 3. They thus make the Church like a prison , when no man knoweth whether the people be willing Members , or only seem so , to escape the Jail . 4. They would be such forcing Rulers over many score or hundred Parishes . 5. They would have power to Rule , Suspend and Silence the Pastors of all these Parishes , when they think meet . 6. They hinder the Pastors of the Parish-Churches from that exercise of the Keys aforesaid in their own Parish-Churches , which belongs to the Pastors Office . 7. They would compel the Parish-Ministers to Admit , Absolve , or Excommunicate ( at least as declaring other mens Sentences ) when it is against their Consciences . 8. They would make Ministers swear Obedience to them , and Bishops swear Obedience to Archbishops . 9. Some of them are for their power to Excommunicate Princes and greatest Magistrates , though contrary to the fifth Commandment , it dishonour them . 10. Some of them say , that if the King command one Church-Order , or Form , or Ceremony , and the Bishop another , the Bishop is to be obeyed before the King : As also if the King bid us Preach , and the Bishop forbid us , 11. And they say , that their Censures , even Clave errante , must be obeyed . 12. And that he whom a Bishop cuts off from one Church , is thereby cut off from all , and none may receive him . 13. And that it is lawful to set up Patriarchs , Metropolitans , &c. to rule the Church , according to the state and distribution of Civil Government . Look over these two Cases , and judge which party is liker to Church-Tyrants ; and then judge what Credit is due to such Accusers of the Non-Conformists in this Age.

§ 43. II. As to Reordination , I have answer'd to Mr. Cheny what he saith : He deceitfully avoideth determining the first Question , whether they intend a Reordination or not : Whereas I have proved , 1. That the Church of England is against twice Ordaining . 2. That they call it and take it for a true Ordination which is to be received from them , by such as Presbyters had Ordained . 3. And therefore that they suppose the former Null . 4. And this is much of the reason of mens doubting whether they should receive the second , which is given on such a Supposition . But this man is little concerned in the true stating of the case .

§ 44. III. What he saith of the Ministers power for Discipline , is answered already to Mr. Cheney that hath the same .

§ 45. About the Covenant , 1. he falsly makes me say , that the King took it : Whereas ( whether he did or not ) I only say , that he was injuriously and unlawfully drawn to seem to owne it and declare for it .

2. Next he aggravates this Injury : And who contradicteth him ?

3. He pleadeth , That the King is not obliged by it to make any alteration in the Government of the Church .

Answ. I will not examine your Reasons : The King never made me his Confessor , nor put the question to me ; Why then should I make my self a Judge of it ? And why must my Ministry lie on a thing beyond my knowledge ? But am I sure that no Parliament-man that took that Vow is bound there in his place to endeavour a Reforming Alteration , when I am past doubt that much is needful ?

He would 1. make it doubtful , Whether it was a Vow to God ? I think it not worth the labour to prove it to him that doubteth of it after deliberate reading it .

2. He saith , [ Any lawful endeavours are not denied . ] Answ. But the Obligation to lawful endeavours are denied . Are not the words universal ?

3. He saith , [ The Covenant condemned as unlawful , cannot lay an Obligation . ]

Answ. A Vow to God unlawfully imposed and taken , may binde to a Lawful Act.

4. He calls it [ unnecessary alterations against the Law of the Land . ]

Answ. I suppose I shall prove some reforming alteration necessary ; And it is not against Law for a Subject to petition for it , or a Parliament-man to speak for it . Yet when the man seems to me to be pleading Conscience out of the Land , he saith , [ Would not this cause the Christian Religion in a short time to be exploded out of all Kingdoms ? ] Alas poor people ! what uncertain Guides have you ?

5. He concludes , that the power of Reforming being in the King , the Vow was null . Answ. The Regal Power of Reforming is only in the King : To change Laws without him , is Usurpation . But Parliament-men may speak for it , and Subjects petition , and on just causes write and speak for needful Reformation : And I speak for no other .

§ 45. IV. About not taking Arms against those Commissioned by the King ; He plainly professeth that we must not distinguish where the Law doth not . And if it be an unlimited Universal Negative , it will quite go beyond Mainwaring or Sibthorpe : And for all his talk , my ignorance of the Law shall suspend my Subscription . 1. King John gave up his Kingdom to the Pope : I cannot say it had been unlawful for the Kingdom to resist such as he should have Commissioned to execute it . 2. Nor such as should be Commissioned to dispossess the right Heir , and settle it on a Stranger , or an Enemy . 3. Nor such as should be Commissioned to seize on all the Subjects Estates or Lives , yea or lay Taxes contrary to Law , in cases where the Law enableth the Sheriff by the Posse Comitatus to resist . 4. Nor if any get the Broad-Seal to Commissions to seize on the King's Garrisons , Forts , Navies , Treasures , Guards , whereby a traiterous Lord-Keeper might at any time Depose the King . I have told you , that old Parliaments Popish and Protestant , and Archbishop Abbot , and Bishop Bilson , &c. were as much Nonconformists in this as I am .

And so much to the Impleaders Accusations of the Nonconformists , and his Reasons for the justifying of their Silencing and ruine , and the Lawfulness of some of the things which they judge to them unlawful : Let the impartial Reader try and judge . The rest of my Book , which is the far greater part , he answereth by contempt and silence .

CHAP. IV. Of his dealing with the Second Plea for Peace .

WHile we hear men , that should be our Brethren , go on to call to Magistrates for Execution of the Laws ( which they have got ) against us , and for want of matter of Accusation against those that they prosecute , raking up odious Criminations from the late Wars , which few of the now Silenced Ministers had any hand in ; and never ceasing to tell men , that the Beginners of that War were guilty of the King's Death . After 17 or 18 years Silence , 1. I told them , That two parties of the Episcopal Conformists being the beginners , in England , it 's wonder'd that they see not how they accuse themselves : And why do they not profess Repentance first ? 2. I fully told them what are our Principles of Government and Obedience , and intreated them to shew me , wherein they are disloyal or culpable . And this man is the first that I finde pretending to assault it , and shame lessly passeth over the Book itself , and by his silence seemeth to justifie our Doctrine . And yet to shew his Will , he taketh occasion again to take up the foresaid actions of the evil Civil War , as if that were any thing to the present Cause ; or as if he were calling the dead to Judgment : ( For we have oft offered them thanks , if they will Silence only those that had a hand in those Wars . ) 2. He taketh on him to answer my Historical Preface ; and therein heapeth abundance of untruths , part of which I mentioned in the second Chapter , and the rest I have so fully confuted in my Answer to Mr. Hinkley , and in an Historical Index of those affairs , that I will not waste my own and the Readers time , by saying the same things here again . And his Accusations of my Concord and Moral Prognostication , I have answered before . It is the manner of the man to name Books , and take occasion from somewhat in them , to pour out that which he most abounds with ; and to try , whether men will take this for a Confutation . O miserable world ! Where the very Preachers of Holiness , Love and Peace , go on to the Grave , and Judgment , and Eternity , fighting against Holiness , Love and Peace ; forbidding others to worship God , ( that cannot swallow all their Inventions ) and not enduring their Brethren to live in Peace among them . But 't is Letter in the World of Holy Love and Peace .

A REFLECTION on the REFLECTER on a Book against Sacrilegious Desertion of the Sacred Ministry .

§ 1. WHen the King , being more merciful than the Canoneer Clergy , had granted Licenses to the Nonconformists , for the publick worshipping of God in peaceable Assemblies , many of the Clergy still cryed down such Assemblies as Schismatical ; when before they seemed to lay the charge of Schism on them , for their want of Authority : And these are the men , that when it is for their Interest , are zealous defenders of the Royal Power against some Parliaments Limitations ; but their Interest can extol , or at least absolve Mr. Hooker himself . Some of them would have perswaded us to forbear the Liberty which the King had granted us , and so to be the Silencers of our selves , and to forbear Gods publick Worship till we dare Conform . And no wonder , when they apprehended such dismal Consequents to their Church from our Preaching , as Mr. Hinkley in his Letter-book hath told you . Among others , Dr. Fulwood would have drawn us into half this guilt , on pretence of perswading us to the moderate use of our Licenses . On which occasion I wrote a small Book , to prove that wilful deserting of our Ministry even when it is forbidden unjustly , and yet remaineth notoriously necessary to the ends of the Institution ) is downright Sacriledge , and worse than alienating Church-Goods or Lands . But I took occasion in it to deal as plainly with those Non-Conformists who are inclined to unwarrantable Separations , as with our Accusers . Dr. Fullwood wrote an Answer to this Book : I never replyed , partly that they may see that I can give such men the honour of having the last word , and partly to save mine own and the Readers time . But now either he , or some other unnamed Author that is marked M. A. hath published more Useful Reflections on that Book . He knoweth to what use , and let him use them accordingly .

§ 2. I. Part of his Reflections are Citations out of that and other of my Books , of such words as seem to be for them , and against the Non-Conformists and my self . II. The other part is his descant on the words , which he disliketh , and setteth them to the Tune which suits his Inclination , and may serve his turn .

Should I Print an Answer to such stuff as this , and in many Sheets tell men where and how such men speak amiss , the Reader might think that Satan hath such power on me , as by any of his Instruments , at his pleasure , to draw me to cast away my own and other mens precious time .

§ 3. All therefore that I shall say to him shall be this , I. As to the first , that 1. I can reconcile my own words , though he cannot : And as he never desired me to teach him to do it , I am not at leisure to offer him my Service : All is not contradiction , which men that understand not words do think so . 2. Readers , You see here when they call for Moderation , and would have us come as near them as we can , they do but turn it to reproach . And one that granteth them all that they cite out of my Books , and comes as near them as I do , is nevertheless thought unsufferable by them , in the exercise of the Ministry and out of Jayl . This is the spirit of the men .

§ 4. II. To the other part I only say , The man mistakes all the question ; which is not , Whether I be good or bad , learned or unlearned : Let this be determined with him as he will . I am so ignorant and bad , that I will not now trouble him with much contradiction . But the question is , 1. Whether the two thousand Ministers were justly Silenced ? 2. And whether if they wilfully ( though so Silenced ) desert the Ministry to which they were Devoted and Consecrated , they will not be guilty of damnable Sacriledge and Perfidiousness ? If the man will speak to purpose to this question , it is like that some one will confute his Defence of so great a sin , when I am past this unpleasant Military Work .

A Note on J. Varney's Book against the Dissenters from the Church of England .

INstead of Confuting it , I commend the reading of it to such as would see which side hath Phanaticks . It declareth that J. Varney hath by Faith pulled down the Devils Kingdome ; and that King Charles 2. shall be Emperour of all Nations , by whom Christ will govern them ; greater than Turk , Pope , or French . And the way is , The Dissenters from the Government of the Church of England must be made Hewers of wood and Drawers of Water , and must pay all Taxes and Payments of the Land , to maintain the Forces that shall preserve the Land against them : Like Decimation .

Notes on Mr. Le Strange 's Casuist uncased .

I Have had some gentle Touches from this Musical band heretofore , which I found not my self obliged to answer . Nor shall I now say any more than this :

I. That he that fetcheth his chief Stings and Scorns from a Book , and the leaf of another Book about twenty years or longer at least revoked and obliterated , sheweth that if with Austin we wrote Retractations , such men would turn all to reproach .

II. That I make not Mr. Le Strange 's judgment the measure of my Repentance or Retractations .

III. That I have never had the Schooling of him , and so never taught him to understand my Writings , and therefore undertake not that things congruous shall not seem contradictions to him . But I can reconcile more than he can . For instance , 1. My Disputation of Scandal , Plea Second , reconcileth what he dreamed was contradiction , about imposing things evil by accident . 2. I can reconcile the Kings having power about the circumstances , yea and substance of Religion ; and yet that he hath none but what he had from Christ . But I have not leasure for such work as this .

IV. Mr. Le Strange quite mistakes the Non-Conformists Question , as the Reflecter doth ; as if Hissing and Stinging were disputing . He seemeth to make the Question to be , Whether I be not a giddy , mutable , self-contradicting Fool and Knave : Let him in that believe what pleases himself . Our Question is , Whether Silencing , Fining , Imprisoning the Non-Conformists , be the way of Peace , and of the desired Concord of Protestants ? Yea , Whether Concord be possible on those Terms , and they will ever end our sad Divisions .

Notes on a Dialogue between the Pope and a Phanatick .

MR. L. Strange's Dialogue minds me of this , for it is a Book not to be forgotten : The Scope of it is to shew , that the Non-Conformists are designing to Destroy the King ; that their Principles are rebellious ; that they have so far prevailed already , that we must have no King , or no Parliament ; which yet being needful , and the genius of the Parliament thus corrupted , the King must choose his own Councellors , and take the choice from the People ( to this sense ) , and all the Loyal Subjects must give their hands , and list or engage themselves to defend the King against these Conspirators . Just the Meal-Tub Plot ! But my Second Plea was written to answer such as this ; and I leave the fuller Answer to those that are more concerned in it .

So much against this Regiment of Accusers . Turba gravis Paci placidaeque inimica qui●ti .

FINIS .

Notes, typically marginal, from the original text

Notes for div A27046-e41350