A relation of the conference between William Laud, late Lord Arch-bishop of Canterbury, and Mr. Fisher the Jesuite by the command of King James, of ever-blessed memory : with an answer to such exceptions as A.C. takes against it.

A RELATION OF THE CONFERENCE BETWEEN WILLIAM LAWD , Then L. Bishop of S. DAVIDS , afterwards Lord Arch-Bishop of CANTERBURY ; AND M. FISHER the JESUITE . F.

The occasion of this Conference was .

§ . 1 THe occasion of this Third Conference you should know sufficiently . You were an Actor in it , as well as in two other . Whether you have related the two former truly , appears by D. White , the late Reverend L. Bishop of Ely his Relation , or Exposition of them . I was present at none but this Third ; of which I here give the Church an Account . But of this Third , whether that were the Cause which you alledge , I cannot tell . You say ,

It was observed , That in the second Conference all the Speech was about particular matters , little or none about a continual , infallible , visible Church ; which was the chief and only Point in which a certain Lady required satisfaction ; as having formerly setled in her minde , That it was not for her , or any other unlearned persons , to take upon them to judge of particulars , without depending upon the judgment of the True Church .

§ . 2 The Opinion of that Honourable Person in this , was never opened to me . And it is very fit the people should look to the Judgment of the Church , before they be too busie with Particulars . But yet neither a a 1 Cor. 10. 15. Scripture , nor any good Authority , denies them some moderate use of their own understanding and judgment , especially in things familiar and evident ; which even b b Quis non sine ullo Magistro , aut interprete ex se facilè cognoscat , &c. Novat . de Trin. c. 23. Et loquitur de Mysterio Passionis Christs . Dijudicare est Mensurare , &c. Unde & Mens dicitur à Metiendo . Tho. p. 1. q. 79. à 9. ad 4. To what end then is a Minde and an Understanding given a man , if he may not apply it to measure Truth ? Et 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . i. ab to quod considerat , & discernit . Quia decernit inter verum & salsum . Damase . l. 2. Fid. Orth. c. 22. And A. C. himself , p. 41. denies not all Judgment to private men ; but says , They are not so to rely absolutely upon their private judgment , as to adventure Salvation upon it alone , or chiefly : which no man will deny . ordinary Capacities may as easily understand , as read . And therefore some Particulars a Christian may judge without depending .

This Lady therefore having heard it granted in the first Conference , That there must be a continual visible Company ever since Christ , teaching unchanged Doctrine in all Fundamental Points , that is , Points necessary to Salvation ; desired to hear this confirmed , and proof brought , which was that continual , infallible , visible Church , in which one may , and out of which one cannot attain Salvation . And therefore having appointed a time of Meeting between a B. and Me , and thereupon having sent for the B. and Me ; before the B. came , the Lady , and a Friend of hers , came first to the Room where I was , and debated before me the aforesaid Question ; and not doubting of the first part , to wit , That there must be a continual visible Church , as they had heard granted by D. White , and L. K. &c.

Num. 1 § . 3 What D. White and L. K. granted , I heard not : But I think , both granted a continual , and a visible Church ; neitherof them an Infallible , at least in your sense . And your self , in this Relation , speak distractedly : For in these few lines from the beginning hither , twice you adde Infallible between continual and visible , and twice you leave it out . But this concerns D. W. and he hath answered it .

Num. 2 Here A. C. steps in , and says , The Jesuite did not speak distractedly , but most advisedly : For ( saith he ) where he relates A. C. p. 42. what D. White or L. K. granted , he leaves out the word Infallible , because they granted it not ; But where he speaks of the Lady , there he addes it , because the Jesuite knew , it was an Infallible Church which she sought to rely upon . How far the Catholick Militant Church of Christ is Infallible , is no Dispute for this place , though you shall finde it after . But sure the Jesuite did not speak most advisedly , nor A. C. neither , nor the Lady her self , if she said she desired to relye upon an Infallible Church . For an Infallible Church denotes a Particular Church , in that it is set in opposition to some other Particular Church that is not Infallible . Now I , for my part , do not know what that Lady desired to relye upon . This I know , if she desired such a Particular Church , neither this Jesuite , nor any other , is able to shew it her : No , not Bellarmine himself , though of very great ability to make good any Truth which he undertakes for the Church of Rome . † † Veritas vincat necesse est , sive Negantem , sive con●itentem , &c. S. Aug. Epist. 174. Occultari potest ad tempus veritas , vinci non potest . S. Aug. in Psal. 61. But no strength can uphold an Errour against Truth , where Truth hath an able Defendant . Now where Bellarmine sets himself purposely to make this good , That * * L. 4. de Rom. Pont. Cap. 4. §. 1. Romana particularis Ecclesia non potest errare in Fide . the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in matter of Faith : Out of which it follows , That there may be found a Particular Infallible Church ; you shall see what he is able to perform .

Num. 3 1 First then , after he hath distinguished , to express his meaning , in what sense the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in things which are de Fide , of the Faith : He tells us , this Firmitude is , because the Sea Apostolick is fixed there . And this he saith is most true . * * Ibid §. 2. And for proof of it , he brings three Fathers to justifie it .

1 The first Saint Cyprian , † † Navigare audent ad Petri Cathedram , & Ecclesiam Principalem , &c. Nec cogitare eos esse Romanos , ad quos Persidia habere non potest accessum . Cyprian . L. 1. Epist. 3. whose words are , That the Romans are such , as to whom Persidia cannot have access . Now Persidia can hardly stand for Errour in Faith , or for Misbelief ; but it properly signifies Malicious Falshood , in matter of Trust , and Action ; not Errour in Faith , but in Fact , against the Discipline and Government of the Church . And why may it not here have this meaning in S. Cyprian ?

Num. 4 For the Story there , it is this : * * Bin. Concil. Tom. 1. p. 152. Edit. Paris . 1636. Baron . Annal. 253 , 254 , 255. In the Year 255 , there was a Councel in Carthage in the Cause of two Schismaticks , Felicissimus , and Novatian , about restoring of them to the Communion of the Church , which had lapsed , in time of danger , from Christianity to Idolatry . Felicissimus would admit all , even without Penance ; and Novatian would admit none , no not after Penance . The Fathers , forty two in number , went as the Truth led them , between both Extremes . To this Councel came Privatus , a known Heretick , but was not admitted , because he was formerly Excommunicated , and often condemned . Hereupon he gathers his Complices together , and chuses one Fortunatus ( who was formerly condemned as well as himself ) Bishop of Carthage , and set him up against S. Cyprian . This done , Felicissimus and his Fellows haste to Rome with Letters Testimonial from their own Party , and pretend that twenty five Bishops concurred with them ; and their desire was to be received into the Communion of the Roman Church , and to have their new Bishop acknowledged . Cornelius , then Pope , though their haste had now prevented S. Cyprian's Letters , having formerly heard from him , both of them and their Schism in Africk , would neither hear them , nor receive their Letters . They grew insolent and furious ( the ordinary way that Schismaticks take . ) Upon this Cornelius writes to S. Cyprian , and S. Cyprian in this Epistle gives Cornelius thanks for refusing these African Fugitives , declares their Schism and wickedness at large , and incourages Him , and all Bishops , to maintain the Ecclesiastical Discipline and Censures , against any the boldest threat●ings of wicked Schismaticks . This is the Story ; and in this is the Passage here urged by Bellarmine . Now I would fain know why Perfidia ( all circumstances considered ) may not stand here in its proper sense for cunning and perfidious dealing , which these men , having practised at Carthage , thought now to obtrude upon the Bishop of Rome also , but that he was wary enough not to be over-reach'd by busie Schismaticks .

Num. 5 2. Secondly , Let it be granted that Perfidia doth signifie here Errour in Faith and Doctrine . For I will not deny , but that among the African Writers ( and especially S. Cyprian ) it is sometimes so us'd ; and therefore here perhaps . But then this Priviledge of not erring dangerously in the Faith , was not made over absolutely to the Romans , that are such by Birth , and dwelling only ; but to the Romans , qua tales , as they were such as those first were , whose Faith was famous through the World , and as long as they continued such ; which at that time it seems they did . And so S. Cyprian's words seem to import , eos esse Romanos , that the Romans then under Pope Cornelius , were such as the * * Rom. 1. 8. Apostle spake of ; and therefore to whom at that time ( or any time , they still remaining such ) perfidious misbelief could not be welcom ; or rather indeed , perfidious Misbelievers or Schismaticks could not be welcom . For this very Phrase , Perfidia non potest habere accessum , directs us to understand the word in a Concrete sense : Perfidiousness could not get access , that is , such perfidious persons , Excommunicated out of other Churches , were not likely to get access at Rome , or to finde admittance into their Communion : It is but a Metonymie of speech , the Adjunct for the Subject , a thing very usual in Elegant † † Ego tibi istam scelestam , Scelus , linguam abscindam : Plaut. Amphit . Ex hac enim parte pudor pugnat , illinc petulantia , &c. Cic. — Latuit plebeio tectus amictu Omnis Honos . Nullos comitata est purpura fasces . Lucan . L. 2. Authors , and much more in later times ; as in S. Cyprian's , when the Latine Language was grown rougher . Now if it be thus understood ( I say in the Concrete ) then it is plain , that S. Cyprian did not intend by these words to exempt the Romans from possibility of Errour , but to brand his Adversaries with a Title due to their Merit , calling them Perfidious , that is , such as had betrayed , or perverted the Faith . Neither can we loose by this Construction , as will appear at after .

Num. 6 3. But thirdly , When all is done , what if it be no more then a Rhetorical excess of speech ? Perfidia non potest , for non facile potest ; It cannot , that is , it cannot easily : Or what if S. Cyprian do but Laudando praecipere , by commending † † Nec cogitare eos esse Romanos , quorum fides Apostolo praedicante , &c them to be such , instruct them , that such indeed they ought to be , to whom Perfidiousness should not get access . Men are very bountiful of their Complements sometimes . * * Epist. 67. Syne●ius writing to Theophilus of Alexandria , begins thus : 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. I both will , and a Divine Necessity lies upon me , to esteem it a Law , whatsoever that Throne ( meaning his of Alexandria ) shall determine . Nay the word is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and that signifies to determine like an Oracle , or as in Gods stead . Now , I hope you will say , this is not to be taken Dogmatically , it is but the Epistolers Courtesie only . And why not the like here ? For the haste which these Schismaticks made to Rome , prevented S. Cyprian's Letters : yet Cornelius very careful of both the Truth and Peace of the Church , would neither hear them , nor receive their Letters , till * * For so S. Cyprian begins his Epistle to Cornelius . Legi literas tuas frater , &c. And after : Sed enim lectâ alia Epistolâ tuâ frater , &c. S. Cypr. L. 1. Epist. 3. he had written to S. Cyprian . Now this Epistle is S. Cyprian's Answer to Cornelius , in which he informs him of the whole truth , and withal gives him thanks for refusing to hear these African Fugitives . In which fair way of returning his thanks , if he make an Honourable mention of the Romans , and their Faith , with a little dash of Rhetorick , even to a Non potest , for a Non facile potest , 't is no great wonder .

Num. 7 But take which Answer you will of the three ; this is plain , that S. Cyprian had no meaning to assert the unerring Infallibility of either Pope , or Church of Rome . For this is more then manifest , by the Contestation which after happened between S. Cyprian , and Pope Stephen , about the Rebaptization of those that were Baptized by Hereticks ; For he * * Stephanus Frater noster Haereticorum causam contra Christianos , & contra Ecclesiam Dei asserere conatur . Cypr. ad Pompeium contra Epist. Stephani Edit. per Erasmum Basil p. 327. saith expresly , That Pope Stephen did then not only maintain an Errour , but the very Cause of Hereticks , and that against Christians , and the very Church of God . † † Stephani fratris nostri obstinatio dura . Ibid. p. 329. And it would be marked by the Jesuite and his A. C. that still it is Stephani fratris nostri , and not Capitis , or summi Pastoris nostri . And after this he chargeth him with Obstinacy and Presumption . I hope this is plain enough to shew , that S. Cyprian had no great Opinion of the Roman Infallibility : Or if he had it , when he writ to Cornelius ; certainly he had chang'd it , when he wrote against Stephen . But I think it was no change ; and that when he wrote to Cornelius , it was Rhetorick , and no more .

Num. 8 Now if any man shall say , that in this Point of Rebaptization S. Cyprian himself was in the wrong Opinion , and Pope Stephen in the right , I easily grant that ; but yet that Errour of his takes not off his judgment , what he thought of the Papal or Roman Infallibility in those times . For though afterwards * * Caranza in Coucil . Carthag . sub Cornel . fine . S. Cyprian's Opinion was condemned in a Councel at Rome under Cornelius , and after that by Pope Stephen ; and after both , in the first † † Can. 1. Councel of Carthage : yet no one word is there in that Councel , which mentions this as an Errour , That he thought Pope Stephen might Erre in the Faith , while he proclaimed he did so . In which , though the particular Censure which he passed on Pope Stephen was erroneous ( for Stephen erred not in that ) yet the General which results from it ( namely , that for all his being in the Popedom , he might erre ) is most true .

Num. 9 2 The second Father which Bellarmine cites is Saint Jerome : * * Attamen scito Romanam fidem Apostolicâ voce laudat●m ejusmodi praestigias non recipere , etiamsi Angelus aliter an●●nciet , quàm semel praedicatum est , Pauli Authoritate munitam non posse mutari . S. Hieron . L. 3. Apol. contra Ruffinum . Tom. 2. Edit. Paris . 1534. sol . 84. K. Peradventure it is here to be read ( & jam st ) For so the place is more plain , and more strong , but the Answer is the same . His words are : Praestigia's , Deceits , and Delusions into it , though an Angel should preach it otherwise then it was preach'd at first , ( and ) being armed and fenced by S. Paul's Authority , cannot be changed . Where first I will not doubt , but that S. Jerome speaks here of Faith ; for the Praestigiae here mentioned , are afterwards more plainly expressed ; for he tells us after , † † Deinde ut Epistolas contra te ad Crientem mitteret , & cauterium tibi Harescos in●reret . Diceretque libros Originis 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , à te translatos , & simplici Ecclesiae Romanae ple●i traditos , ut fidei veritatem quam ab Apostolo didicerant , per te perderent . S. Hieron . ibid. fol. 85. K. That the Bishop of Rome had sent Letters into the East , and charged Heresie upon Ruffinus : And farther , that Origen's Books 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 were translated by him , and delivered to the simple people of the Church of Rome , that by his means they might loose the verity of the Faith , which they had learned from the Apostle . Therefore the Praestigiae before-mentioned , were the cunning illusions of Ruffinus , putting Origen's Book under the Martyr Pamphilus his name , that so he might bring in Heresie the more cunningly under a name of Credit , and the more easily pervert the peoples Faith . So , of the Faith he speaks . And secondly , I shall as easily confess that S. Jerom's speech is most true , but I cannot admit the Cardinal's sense of it : for he imposes upon the word Fides . For by Romana Fides , the Roman Faith , he will understand the particular Church of Rome ; which is as much as to say , Romanos Fideles , the Faithful of that Church : And that no wily delusions , or cousenage in matter of Faith can be imposed upon them . Now hereupon I return to that of S. Cyprian : If Fides Romana must signifie Fideles Romanos , why may not Perfidia before signife Perfidos ? Especially since these two words are commonly used by these Writers , as Terms * *

Qui cum Fidei dux esse non potuit , perfidiae existat . S. Cyprian . L. 1. Epist. 7. Fidem perfidi , &c. Ibid.

Facti sunt ex Ovibus Vulpes , ex ●idelibus perfidi . Optatus . L. 7. Quomodo iis pro●it q●●m baptizantur Parentum Fides , quorum iis non potest obesse perfidia . S. Aug. Epist. 23. Quanto potiùs Fides aliena potest consulere parvulo , cui sua perfidia , &c. S. Aug. L. 3. de lib. Arbit . c. 23.

Opposite : And therefore by the Law of Opposition may interpret each other proportionably . So with these great Masters , with whom 't is almost grown to be , Quod volumus , rectum est , what we please , shall be the Authors meaning : Perfidia must signifie absolutely Errour in Faith , Misbelief ; but Fides must relate to the Persons , and signifie the Faithful of the Roman Church . And now I conceive my Answer will proceed with a great deal of Reason . For Romana Fides , the Roman Faith , as it was commended by the Apostle ( of which S. Jerome speaks ) is one thing ; and the Particular Roman Church , of which the Cardinal speaks , is another . The Faith indeed admits not Praestigias , wily delusions into it ; if it did , it could not be the whole and undefiled Faith of Christ , which they learned from the Apostle ; and which is so fenced by Apostolical Authority , as that it cannot be changed , though an Angel should preach the contrary . But the Particular Church of Rome hath admitted Praestigias , divers crafty Conveyances into the Faith , and is not fenced , as the Faith it self is . And therefore though an Angel cannot contrary that , yet the bad Angel hath sowed Tares in this . By which means Romana Fides , though it be now the same it was for the words of the Creed ; yet it is not the same for the sense of it : nor for the super and praeter-structures built upon it , or joyned unto it . So the Roman Faith , that is , the Faith which S. Paul taught the Romans , and after commended in them , was all one with the Catholike Faith of Christ . For S. Paul taught no other then that One ; and this one can never be changed in , or from it self , by Angel or Devil . But in mens hearts it may receive a change ; and in particular Churches it may receive a change ; and in the particular Church of Rome it hath received a change . And ye see S. Hierome himself confesses , that the Pope himself was afraid † † Ne fidei veritatem quam ab Apostolo didicerant , per te perderent , ut suprà . ne perderent , lest by this Art of Ruffinus , the people might lose the verity of the Faith . Now that which can be lost , can be changed : For usually Habits begin to alter , before they be quite lost . And that which may be lost among the People , may be lost among the Bishops , and the rest of the Clergy too , if they look not to it , as it seems they after did not at Rome , though then they did . Nay , at this time the whole Roman Church was in danger enough to swallow Origen's Book , and all the Errours in it , coming under the name of Pamphilus : And so S. Hierome himself expresly , and close upon the place cited by Bellarmine . For he desires * * Muta titulum , & Romanam simplicitatem tanto periculo libera . Ibid. fol. 84. K. Ruffinus to change the Title of the Book ( that Errour may not be spread under the specious name of Pamphilus ) and so to free from danger the Roman Simplicity . Where , by the way , Roman unerring Power now challenged , and Roman Simplicity then feared , agree not very well together .

3 The third Father alledged by Bellarmine , is S. * * Vetus Roma ab antiquis temporibus habet rectam Fidem , & semper eam retinet , sicut decet Urbtm , quae toti Orbi praesidet , semper de Deo integram fidem habere . Greg. Naz. in Carmine de vitâ suâ . Ante medium . p. 9. Edit. Paris . 1609. Gregory Nazianzen . And his words are : That Ancient Rome from of old hath the right Faith , and always holds it , as becomes the City , which is Governess over the whole World , to have an entire Faith in , and concerning God . Now certainly it became that City very well , to keep the Faith sound and entire . And having the Government of a great part of the World then in her power , it became her so much the more , as her Example thereby was the greater . And in S. Gregory Nazianzen's time , Rome did certainly hold both rectam & integram Fidem , the right , and the whole entire Faith of Christ . But there is nor Promise , nor Prophecie in S. Gregory , that Rome shall ever so do . For his words are plain , decet semper , it becomes that great City always to have , and to hold too , integram Fidem , the entire Faith . But at the other semper , 't is † † The words in the Greek are , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Haec quidem fuit diu , & nunc adhuc est rectigrada . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Est ; So S. Gregory says ; but of an 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or a retinebit , he says nothing : Nor is semper in the Text of Nazianzen . retinet , that City from of old holds the right Faith yet : But he saith not , retinebit semper , that the City of Rome shall retain it ever , no more then it shall ever retain the Empire of the World . Now it must be assur'd , that it shall ever hold the entire Faith of Christ , before we can be assured , that that particular Church can never Erre , or be Infallible .

Num. 11 Besides these , the Cardinal names Cyrillus , and Ruffinus ; but he neither tells us where , nor cites their words . Yet I think I have found the most pregnant place in * * Petram o●inor per agnominationem nihil aliud , quàm inconcussam & firmissimam Discipuli fidem vocavit . In quâ , Ecclesia Christi ita fundata & firmata esset , ut non laberetur , & esset inexpugnabilis inferorum portis , in perpetuum manens . S. Cyril . Alex. Dial. de Trin. l. 4. p. 278. Paris●●s , An. 1604. S. Cyril , and that makes clearly against him . For I finde expresly these three things . First , That the Church is Inexpugnable , and that the Gates of Hell shall never prevail against it , but that it shall in perpetuum manere , remain for ever . And this all Protestants grant . But this , That it shall not fall away , doth not secure it from all kinds of Errour . Secondly , Bellarmine quotes S. Cyril for the particular Roman Church ; and S. Cyril speaks not of the Roman at all , but of the Church of Christ , that is , the Catholike Church . Thirdly , that the Foundation and firmness which the Church of Christ hath , is placed not in , or upon the † † Et ego dico tibi ] i tuae Confessioni , quâ mihi dixisti , Tu es Christus , &c. Dion . Carthus . in S. Mat. 16. 18. Et super hanc Petram ] i. Fidei hujus firmitatem & sundamentum . Vel super hanc Petram quam confessus 〈◊〉 , i. super M●ipsum Lapidem Angularem , &c. Ibid. Person , much less the Successor of S. Peter ▪ but upon the † † Et ego dico tibi ] i tuae Confessioni , quâ mihi dixisti , Tu es Christus , &c. Dion . Carthus . in S. Mat. 16. 18. Et super hanc Petram ] i. Fidei hujus firmitatem & sundamentum . Vel super hanc Petram quam confessus 〈◊〉 , i. super M●ipsum Lapidem Angularem , &c. Ibid. Faith , which by God's Spirit in him he so firmly professed : which is the common received Opinion both of the Ancient Fathers , and the Protestants . Upon this Rock , that is , upon this Faith , will I build my Church , S. Matth. 16. So S. Mat. 16. 18. here 's all the good he hath gotten by S. Cyril , unless he can cite some other place of S. Cyril , which I believe he cannot .

Num. 12 And for Ruffinus , the place which Bellarmine aims at , is in his Exposition upon the Creed ; and is quoted in part , the * * Bellar. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. Cap. 3. §. penult. Chapter before . But when all his words shall be laid together , they will make no more for Bellarmine and his Cause , then the former places have done . † † Illud non importun● commonendum puto , quod in diversis Ecclesiis aliqua in his verbis inveniuntur adjecta . In Ecclesiâ tamen Urbis Romae hoc non deprebenditur factum . Pro eo arbitror , quod neque Heresis u●●a illic sumpsit exordium , & mos ibi servatur antiquus , eos qui gratiam Baptismi suscepturi sunt , publicò , id est , Fidelium populo audiente , Symbolum reddere : Et utique adjectionem unius saltem Sermonis , eorum qui praecesserunt in Fide , non admittit auditus . In caeteris autem Locis , quantum intelligi datur , propter nonnullos Haereticos addita quaedam videntur , per quae novellae Doctrinae sensus crederetur excludi , &c. Ruffin . in Exposit. Symbol . ( ut habetur inter Opera S. Cypriani ) Prae●at . Expos. Ruffinus his words then run thus : Before I come to the words of the Creed , this I think sit to warn you of , that in divers Churches some things are found added to the words ( of the Creed . ) But in the Church of the City of Rome , this is not found done : And as I think , it is , for that no Heresie did take its rise or beginning there : And for that the Old Custom is there observed , namely , that they which are to receive the grace of Baptism , do publickly repeat the Creed in the hearing of the people , who would not admit such Additions . But in other places ( as far as I can understand ) by reason of some Hereticks , some things were added , but such as were to exclude the sense of their Novel Doctrine . Now these words make little for Bellarmine who cites them , and much against Ruffinus that uttered them . They make little for Bellarmine . First , because suppose Ruffinus his speech to be true , yet this will never follow : In Ruffinus his time no Heresie had taken its beginning at Rome : therefore no Heresie hath had rooting there so many hundred years since . Secondly , Bellarmine takes upon him there to prove , That the particular Church of Rome cannot Erre . Now neither can this be concluded out of Ruffinus his words . First , because ( as I said before ) to argue from Non sumpsit , to Ergo sumere non potest : No Heresie hath yet begun there ; therefore none can begin there , or spring thence , is an Argument drawn ab Actu ad Potentiam negative , from the Act to the Power of Being ; which every Novice in Learning can tell proceeds not Negatively . And common reason tells every man , 't is no consequence to say , Such a thing is not , or hath not been , therefore it cannot be . Secondly , because though it were true , that no Heresie at all did ever take its beginning at Rome , yet that can never prove , that the particular Church of Rome can never Erre ( which is the thing in Question . ) For suppose that no Heresie did ever begin there , yet if any that began elsewhere were admitted into that Church , it is as full a proof , that that Church can Erre , as if the Heresie had been hatched in that Nest. For that Church erres , which admits an Heresie in it , as well as that which broaches it . Now Ruffinus says no more of the Roman Church , then non sumpsit exordium , no Heresie took its beginning there ; but that denies not , but that some Heretical Taint might get in there : And 't is more then manifest , that the most famous Heresies , in their several times , made their abode even at Rome . And 't is observable too , that Bellarmine cites no more of Ruffinus his words then these ( In Ecclesia Urbis Romae neque Haeresis ulla sumpsit exordium , & mos ibi servatur antiquus ) as if this were an entire speech , whereas it comes in but as a Reason given of the speech precedent ; and as if Ruffinus made the Church of Rome the great Observer of the Customs of the Church , whereas he speaks but of one particular Custom of reciting the Creed before Baptism . But after all this , I pray did no Heresie ever begin at Rome ? Where did Novatianism begin ? At Rome sure . For a a Baron . ●b . 2. A● . 254. Num. 62. Baronius , b b Pamel . in Cyprian . Epist. 41. & 73. Pamelius , and c c Petavius in Epiphan. Haeres. 59. Petavius , do all dispute the point , whether that Sect was denominated from Novatianus the Roman Priest , or Novatus the African Bishop ; and they conclude for Novatian . He then that gave that Name , is in all right the Founder , and Rome the Nest of that Heresie ; and there it continued with a Succession d d Onuph . in Notis ad Plat. in vita Cornelii . of Bishops from Cornelius to Caelestine , which is near upon two hundred years . Nay , could Ruffinus himself be ignorant that some Heresie began at Rome ? No sure . For in this I must challenge him either for his weak memory , or his wilful errour . For Ruffinus had not only read Eusebius his History , but had been at the pains to translate him . Now * * Haeretici alii in morem venenatorum serpentum in Asiam & Phrygiam irre●serunt , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , quorum Dux Florinus . Euseb. L. 5. cap. 14. And in Ruffinus his Translation , c. 15. And then afterwards , c. 19. & 20. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 &c. Now these taught that God was the Author of Sin . Eusebius says plainly , that some Hereticks spread their venom in Asia , some in Phrygia , and others grew at Rome ; and Florinus was the Ring-leader of them . And more clearly after . Irenaeus ( saith he ) directed divers Epistles against this Florinus , and his Fellow Blastus , and condemns them of such Heresies as threw them and their Followers into great Impiety , &c. Those at Rome corrupting the sound Doctrine of the Church . Therefore most manifest it is , that some Heresie had its rise and beginning at Rome . But to leave this slip of Ruffinus , most evident it is , that Ruffinus neither did , nor could account the particular Church of Rome Infallible : for if he had esteemed so of it , he would not have dissented from it in so main a Point , as is the Canon of the Scripture , as he plainly doth . † † Ruff. in Exposit. Symb. p. 188. In which reckoning he plainly agrees with the Church of England . Art. 6 For reckoning up the Canonical Books , he most manifestly dissents from the Roman Church . Therefore either Ruffinus did not think the Church of Rome was Infallible , or else the Church of Rome at this day reckons up more Books within the Canon , then heretofore she did . If she do , then she is changed in a main Point of Faith , the Canon of Scripture , and is absolutely convinced not to be Infallible : for if she were right in her reckoning then , she is wrong now ; and if she be right now , she was wrong then : and if she do not reckon more now then she did when Ruffinus lived , then he reckons fewer then she , and so dissents from her ; which doubtless he durst not have done , had he thought her judgment Infallible . Yea , and he sets this mark upon his Dissent besides , * * Novi & Veteris Testamenti Volumina , &c. sicut ex Patrum Monumentis accepimus . Ruff. in Symb. p. 188. et haec sunt quae Patres intra Canonem concluserunt . Et ex quibus Fidei ●ostrae Assertiones constare voluerunt . Ib. p. 189. That he reckons up the Books of the Canon just so , and no otherwise , then as he received them out of the Monuments of the Forefathers ; and out of which the Assertions of our Faith are to be taken . Last of all , had this place of Ruffinus any strength for the Infallibility of the Church of Rome , yet there is very little reason that the Pope and his Clergy should take any Benefit by it . For † † Si Episcopi Romani est , stultè facis ab eo Exemplar Epistolae petere , cui missa non est , &c. Vade potiùs Romam , & praesens apud eum expostula , cur tibi & absenti & innocenti fecerit injuriam . Primùm , ut non reciperet Expositionem Fidei tuae , quam omnis ( ut scribis ) Italia comprobavit , &c. Deinde , ut Canterium tibi Haereseos , dum nescis , inureret . S. Hieron . Apol. 3. advers. Ruffin . sol . 85. K. S. Hierome tells us , That when Ruffinus was angry , with him for an Epistle which he writ not , he plainly sent him to the Bishop of Rome , and bid him exposiulate with him for the Contumely put upon him , in that he received not his Exposition of the Faith , which , said he , all Italy approved : And in that he branded him also , dum nesciret ( behinde his back ) with Heresie . Now if the Pope , which then was , rejected this Exposition of the Creed made by Ruffinus , and branded him besides with Heresie ; his Sentence against Ruffinus was just , or unjust : If unjust , then the Pope erred about a matter of Faith ; and so neither he , nor the Church of Rome , Infallible : If just , then the Church of Rome labours to defend her self by his Pen , which is judged Heretical by her self . So whether it were just , or unjust , the Church of Rome is driven to a hard strait , when she must beg help of him whom she branded with Heresie , and out of that Tract which she her self rejected ; and so uphold her Infall ibility by the judgment of a man , who in her judgment had erred so foully : Nor may she by any * * Quum quis se velle personas testium post publicationem repellere fuerit protestatus , Si quid pro ipso dixerint , iis non creditur . Extra . Tex . & ibi Gloss. c. Praesentium 31. de Testibus . Law take benefit of a Testimony , which her self hath defamed , and protested against .

Num. 13 With these Bellarmine is pleased to name s●x or a a Lib. 4. c. 3. §. De altero ergo . seven Popes , which , he saith , are all of this Opinion . But of Popes Opinions , he saith , That b b Quae et si ab Haereticis contemnentur . L. 4. c. 4. §. Addo etiam . these Testimonies will be contemned by the Hereticks . Good words , I pray . I know whom the Cardinal means by Hereticks very well : But the best is , his Call cannot make them so . Nor shall I easily contemn seven Ancient Bishops of Rome concurring in Opinion , if apparent Verity in the thing it self do not force me to dissent ; and in that case I shall do it without contempt too . This only I will say , * * Nemini in sua causa credendum , nisi conformiter ad Legem Divinam , Naturalem & Canonicam ●oquatur . So Jo. Gerson , and the Doctors of Paris , cited in Lib. Anon. de Ecclesiastica & Politica Potestate . c. 16. Ed. Paris . 1612. Now these Popes do not speak here conformably to these Laws . That seven Popes concurring in Opinion , shall have less weight with me in their own Cause , then any other seven of the more Ancient Fathers . Indeed could I swallow † † Lib. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. in initio . Bellarmine's Opinion , That the Pope's Judgment is Infallible , I would then submit without any more a●o . But that will never down with me , unless I live till I dote , which I hope in God I shall not .

Num. 14 Other Proofs then these Bellarmine brings not to prove , that the particular Church of Rome cannot erre in , or from the Faith . And of what force these are to sway any judgment , I submit to all indifferent Readers . And having thus examined Bellarmines Proofs , That the particular Church of Rome cannot erre in Faith ; I now return to A. C. and the Jesuite , and A. C. p. 42. tell them , that no Jesuite , or any other , is ever able to prove any particular Church Infallible .

Num. 15 But for the particular Church of Rome , and the Pope with it , erred it hath ; and therefore may erre . Erred I say it hath in the Worship of Images , and in altering Christ's Institution in the Blessed Sacrament , by taking away the Cup from the People ; and divers other particulars , as shall appear at * * §. 33. Consid. 7. Num. 5. & 12. after . And as for the Ground which is presumed to secure this Church from Errour , 't is very remarkable how the † † Romana Ecclesia Particularis non potest errare , persistente Romae Apostolicâ sede . Propositio haec est verissima , & fortasse tam vera quàm illa prima de Pontifi●e . ● . 4 de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. 2. Edit. ●ugdun . 1596. And that first Proposition is this : Summus Pontifex ●●m totam Ecclesiam docet , in ●is quae ad sidem pertinent ●ullo casu errare potest . Ibid. c. 3. §. 1. Learned Cardinal speaks in this Case . For he tells us , that this Proposition [ So long as S. Peter's Chair is at Rome , that particular Church cannot erre in the Faith ] is verissima , most true ; and yet in the very next words , 't is Fortasse tam vera , peradventure as true as the former ( that is ) That the Pope when he teaches the whole Church in those things which belong to the Faith , cannot erre in any case . What ? is that Proposition most true ? And yet is it but at a peradventure 't is as true as this ? Is it possible any thing should be absolutely most true ; and yet under a peradventure that it is but as true as another Truth ? But here without all Peradventure neither Proposition is true . And then indeed Bellarmine may say without a Fortasse , That this Proposition , The particular Church of Rome cannot erre , so long as the Sea Apostolike is there , is as true as this : The Pope cannot erre while he teaches the whole Church in those things which belong to the Faith . For neither of them is true . But he cannot say that either of them is verissima , most true , when neither of them hath Truth .

Num. 16 2 Secondly , if the particular Church of Rome be Infallible , and can neither erre in the Faith , nor fall from it , then it is because the Sea Apostolike cannot be transferred from Rome , but must ever , to the Consummation of the World , remain there , and keep that particular Church from erring . Now to this what says Bellarmine ? What ? Why he tells us , † † Pia & probabilissima Sententia est , Cathedram Petri non posse separari , à Roma , & proiude Romanam Ecclesiam absolutè non posse errare , vel deficere . ● . 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. Quod nihilominus . That it is a pious , and most probable Opinion to think so . And he reckons four Probabilities , that it shall never be remov'd from Rome . And I will not deny , but some of them are fair Probabilities ; but yet they are but Probabilities , and so unable to convince any man . Why but then , what if a man cannot think as Bellarmine doth , but that inforced by the light of his Understanding , he must think the quite contrary to this , which Bellarmine thinks pious , and so probable ? What then ? Why then * * Contraria sententia nec est Haeretica , nec manifestè erronea . L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. At secundum . Bellarmine himself tells you , that the quite contrary Proposition to this , namely , That S. Peter's Chair may be severed from Rome , and that then that particular Church may erre , is neither Heretical , nor manifestly Erroneous . So then , by Bellarmine's own Confession , I am no Heretick , nor in any manifest errour , if I say ( as indeed I do , and think it too ) that 't is possible for S. Peter's Chair to be carried from Rome , and that then at least , by his own Argument , that Church may erre .

Num. 17 Now then upon the whole matter , and to return to A. C. A. C. p. 42. If that Lady desired to rely upon a particular Infallible Church , 't is not to be found on earth . Rome hath not that gift , nor her Bishop neither . And Bellarmine ( who I think was as able as any Champion that Church hath ) dares not say , 't is either Heresie , or a manifest errour , to say , That the Apostolike Sea may be removed thence , and that Church not only erre in Faith , but also fall quite away from it . Now I , for my part , have not ignorance enough in me to believe , that that Church which may Apostatize at some one time , may not erre at another ; especially since both her erring and failing may arise from other Causes besides that which is mention'd by the Cardinal . And if it may erre , 't is not Infallible .

The Question was , Which was that Church ? A Friend of the Ladies would needs defend , That not only the Roman , but also the Greek Church was right .

§ . 4 When that Honourable Personage answered , I was not by to hear . But I presume , he was so far from granting , that only the Roman Church was right , as that he did not grant it right : and that he took on him no other defence of the poor Greek Church , then was according to truth .

I told him , That the Greek Church had plainly changed , and taught false in a Point of Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost , and that I had heard say , that even his Majesty should say , That the Greek Church having erred against the Holy Ghost , had lost the Holy Ghost .

§ . 5 You are very bold with His Majesty , to relate him upon Hear-say . My intelligence serves me not to tell you what His Majesty said : But if he said it not , you have been too credulous to believe , and too sudden to report it . Princes deserve , and were wont to have more respect then so . If His Majesty did say it , there is Truth in the speech ; the Errour is yours only , by mistaking what is meant by losing the Holy Ghost . For a particular Church may be said to lose the Holy Ghost two ways , or in two degrees . 1 The one , when it loses such special assistance of that Blessed Spirit , as preserves it from all dangerous Errours and sins , and the temporal punishment which is due unto them : And in this sense the Greek Church did perhaps lose the Holy Ghost : for they erred against him , they sinned against God . And for this , or other sins , they were delivered into another Babylonish Captivity under the Turk , in which they yet are ; and from which , God in his mercy deliver them . But this is rather to be called an Errour circa Spiritum Sanctum , about the Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost , then an Errour against the Holy Ghost . 2 The other is , when it loses not only this assistance , but all assistance ad hoc , to this , that they may remain any longer a true Church ; and so , Corinth and Ephesus , and divers other Churches have lost the Holy Ghost ; but in this sense the whole Greek Church lost not the Holy Ghost . For they continue a true Church in the main substance , to and at this day , though Erroneous in this Point which you mention , and perhaps in some other too .

The Ladies Friend not knowing what to answer , called in the Bishop , who sitting down first , excused himself as one unprovided , and not much studied in Controversies ; and desiring that in case he should fail , yet the Protestant Cause might not be thought ill of .

§ . 6 This is most true . For I did indeed excuse my self , and I had great reason so to do . And my Reason being grounded upon Modesty , for the most part , there I leave it . Yet this it may be fit others should know , that I had no information where the other Conferences brake off ; no instruction at all what should be the ground of this third Conference , nor the full time of four and twenty hours to bethink my self . And this I take upon my Credit is most true : whereas you make the sifting of these , and the like Questions , to the very Bran , your daily work , and came throughly furnished to the business , and might so lead on the Controversie to what your self pleased , and I was to follow as I could . * * De util. Credendi . c. 2. S. Augustine said once , Scio me invalidum esse , I know I am weak ; and yet he made good his Cause . And so perhaps may I against you . And in that I preferr'd the Cause before my particular Credit ; that which I did was with modesty , and according to Reason . For there is no reason the weight of this whole Cause should rest upon any one particular man : And great reason , that the personal defects of any man should press himself , but not the Cause . Neither did I enter upon this service , out of any forwardness of my own , but commanded to it by Supreme Authority .

It having an hundred better Scholars to maintain it then he . To which I said , there were a thousand better Scholars then I to maintain the Catholike Cause .

§ . 7 In this I had never so poor a Conceit of the Protestants Cause , as to think , that they had but an hundred better then my self to maintain it . That which hath an hundred , may have as many more , as it pleases God to give , and more then you . And I shall ever be glad , that the Church of England ( which , at this time , if my memory reflect not amiss , I named ) may have far more able Defendants then my self . I shall never envy them , but rejoyce for her . And I make no question , but that if I had named a thousand , you would have multiplied yours into ten thousand , for the Catholike Cause ( as you call it . ) And this confidence of yours hath ever been fuller of noise then proof . But you proceed .

Then the Question about the Greek Church being proposed , I said as before , that it had erred .

§ . 8 Then I think the Question about the Greek Church was proposed . But after you had with confidence enough not spared to say , That what I would not acknowledge in this Cause , you would wring and extort from me ; then indeed you said as before , that it had erred : And this no man denied . But every Errour denies not Christ , the Foundation ; or makes Christ deny it , or thrust it from the Foundation .

The Bishop said , That the Errour was not in Point Fundamental .

§ . 9 Num. 1 I was not so peremptory . My speech was , That divers Learned men , and some of your own , were of Opinion , that ( as the Greeks expressed themselves ) it was a Question not simply Fundamental . I know , and acknowledge that Errour of denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son , to be a grievous Errour in Divinity . And sure it would have grated the Foundation , if they had so denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son , as that they had made an inequality between the Persons . But since their form of speech is , † † Non ex Filio , sed Spiritum Filii esse dicimus . Damascen ▪ L. 1. Fid. Orth. c. 11. Et Patris per Filium . Ibid. That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father by the Son , and is the Spirit of the Son , without making any difference in the Consubstantiality of the Persons ; I dare not deny them to be a true Church for this ; though I confess them an erroneous Church in this particular .

Num. 2 Now that divers Learned men were of Opinion , that à Filio , and per Filium , in the sense of the Greek Church , was but a Question in modo loquendi , in manner of speech ; b b Pluralitas in Voce , salvat â unitate in re , non repugnat unitati Fidei . Durand . ●●b . 3. d. 25. ● . 2. and therefore not Fundamental , is evident . c c Magist. 1. Sent. d. 11. D. Sa●è sciend●m est , q ò ● lic t in praesenti Articulo à nobis Graeci verbo discordent , tamen sensu non differ●nt , &c. Bandinus L. 1. de Tri● . d. 11. & Bonavent . in 1 Sent. d. 11. A. 1. q. 1. §. 12. Licet Graecis in●e●sissimus , qu●m dixit Graecos ob●icere curiositatem Romanis , addendo ( Filióque ) Quia sine hujus Articuli prosessione salus er at ; non Respondet ●●gando salutem esse , sed dicit tan●ùm opportunam fuisse Determinationem propter periculum . Et postea , §. 1● . Sunt qui volunt susti●ere opinionem Graecorum , & Latinorum , distinguendo duplicem modum Procedendi . Se● fortè si duo sapie●tes , unus Graecus , alter Latinus , uterque verus amato● Veritatis , & non propriae dictionis , &c. de hac vis● contrarietate disquirerent , pateret utiqùe tandem ipsam Contrarietatem non esse veraciter realem , sl●●t est Vocalis . Scotus in 1. Sent. d. 11. q. 1. Antiquorum Graecorum à Latinis discrepa●tia in voce poti●s est , & ▪ modo explicandi Emanationem Sp. S. quàm in ipsâ re , &c. Jodocus Clictoveus in Damasc. ● . 1. Fid. Orth. c. 11. Et quidam ex Graecis co●cedunt , quòd sit à Filio , vel ab ●o profluat . Thom. p. 1. q. 36. A. 2. C. Et Thomas ipse dicit , Sp. S. procedere mediatè à Filio . Ib. A. 3. ad 1. saltem ratione Personarum Spirantium . Respond●● cum Bestarione , & Gennadio , Damascenum non negâsse Sp. S. procedere ex Filio , quod ●d rem attinet , qu●● dixerit Spiritum esse Imaginem Filii , & per Filium , sed existimâssè tutiùs dici per Filium , qud●n ex Filio , quantum ad modum loquen●i , &c. Bellarm. L. 2. de Christo , c. 27. §. Respondeo igitur . Et Tollet . in S. John 15. Ar. 25. & Lutheran . Resp. ad Resp. 2. Jeremiae Patriarchae . The Master and his Scholars agree upon it . The Greeks ( saith he ) confess the Holy Ghost to be the Spirit of the Son , with the Apostle , Galat. 4. and the Spirit of Truth , S. John 16. And since Non est aliud , it is not another thing to say ; The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father , and the Son , then that he is , or proceeds from the Father , and the Son ; in this they seem to agree with us in eandem Fidei sententiam , upon the same Sentence of Faith , though they differ in words . Now in this cause , where the words differ , but the Sentence of Faith is the same , d d Eadem penitùs Sententia , ubi suprà , Clictov . penitus eadem , even altogether the same , Can the Point be Fundamental ? You may make them no Church ( as e e Bellarm. 4. de Notis Eccl. cap. 8. §. Quod autem apud Graecos . Bellarmine doth ) and so deny them Salvation , which cannot be had out of the true Church ; but I for my part dare not so do . And Rome in this particular should be more moderate , if it be but because this Article ( Filioque ) was added to the Creed by her self . And 't is hard to adde , and Anathematize too .

Num. 3 It ought to be no easie thing to condemn a man of Heresie , in foundation of faith ; much less a Church ; least of all so ample and large a Church as the Greek , especially so , as to make them no Church . Heaven Gates were not so easily shut against multitudes , when S. Peter wore the Keys at his own Girdle . And it is good counsel which * * Lib. 3. cont. Haeres . fol. 93. A. ut videant ●i , qui sacilè de Haeresi pronuntiant , quam facilè etiam ipsi errent : Et intelligant , non esse tam levitèr de Haeresi censendum , &c. In verbo [ Beatitudo . ] Alphonsus a Castro , one of your own , gives : Let them consider that pronounce easily of Heresie , how easie it is for themselves to erre . Or if you will pronounce , consider what it is that separates from the Church simply , and not in part only . I must needs profess , that I wish heartily , ( as well as † † Junius Animad in Bellar. cont. 2. L. 3. c. 23. others ) that those distressed men , whose Cross is heavy already , had been more plainly and moderately dealt withal , though they think a diverse thing from us , then they have been by the Church of Rome . But hereupon you say you were forc'd :

Whereupon I was forced to repeat what I had formerly brought against D. White , concerning Points Fundamental .

§ . 10 Num. 1 Hereupon it is true , that you read a large Discourse out of a Book printed , which , you said , was yours ; the particulars ( all of them at the least ) I do not now remember , nor did I then approve . But if they be such as were formerly brought against Doctor White , they are by him formerly answered . The first thing you did , was the * * F. First righting the Sentence of S. Austine : Fere●dus est Disputator errans , &c. Here A. C. p. 44. tells us very learnedly , that my corrupt Copy hath righting instead of reading the Sentence of S. Austine . Whereas I here use the word righting , not as it is opposed to reading ( as any man may discern A. C. palpably mistakes ) but for doing right to S. Austine . And if I had meant it for writing , I should not have spelled it so . righting of S. Augustine ; which Sentence I do not at all remember was so much as named in the Conference , much less was it stood upon , and then righted by you . Another place of S. Augustine indeed was ( which you omit ; ) but it comes after , about Tradition , to which I remit it . But now you tell us of a great Proof made out of this † † By which is proved , That all Points defined by the Church are Fundamental . place : For these words of yours contain two Propositions : One , That all Points defined by the Church are Fundamental : The other , That this is proved out of this place of S. Augustine .

Num. 2 1 For the first , That all Points defined by the Church are fundamental : It was not the least means , by which Rome grew to her Greatness , to blast every Opposer she had with the Name of Heretick , or Schismatick ; for this served to shrivel the Credit of the persons . And the persons once brought into contempt and ignominy , all the good they desired in the Church , fell to dust , for want of Creditable Persons to back and support it . To make this proceeding good in these later years , this course ( it seems ) was taken . The School , that must maintain ( and so they do ) That all Points defined by the Church , are thereby a a Your own word . Fundamental , b b Inconcussá side ab omnibus . Thom. 2. 2ae q. 1. Art. 10. C. necessary to be believed , c c Scotus 1. Sent. a. 11. q. 1. of the substance of the Faith ; and that , though it be determined quite d d Eccles●● voces etiam extra Scripturam . Stap. ●elect . Con. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. Quae maturo judicio definivit , &c. Solidum est , & etiamsi null● Scripturarum , aut evidenti , aut probabili testimonie confirmaretur . Ibid. Extra Scripturam . And then e e Et penes Cercopes Victoria sit , Greg. Naz. de Disseren . vitae . Cercopes 1. Astutos , & veteratori● improbitatis Episcopos , qui artibus suis ac dolis omnia Concilia perturbabant . Schol. ib. leave the wise and active Heads to take order , that there be strength enough ready to determine what is fittest for them .

Num. 3 But since these men distinguish not , nor you , between the Church in general , and a General Councel , which is but her Representation for determinations of the Faith ; though I be very slow in sifting or opposing what is concluded by Lawful , General , and consenting Authority ; though I give as much as can justly be given to the Definitions of Councels truly General : Nay , suppose I should grant ( which I do not ) That General Councels cannot erre ; yet this cannot down with mé , That all Points even so defined are Fundamental . For Deductions are not prime and native Principles ; nor are Superstructures Foundations . That which is a Foundation for all , cannot be one , and another , to different Christians in regard of it self ; for then it could be no common Rule for any , nor could the Souls of men rest upon a shaking foundation . No : If it be a true foundation , it must be common to all , and firm under all ; in which sense the Articles of Christian Faith are fundamental . And * * Quum enim una & eadem fides sit , neque is qui multum de ipsâ dicere potest , plusqu●m oportet , dicit ; neque qui parùm , ipsam imminuit . Iren. L. 1. advers. Haeres . c. 3. Irenaeus lays this for a ground , That the whole Church ( howsoever dispersed in place ) speaks this with one mouth . He , which among the Guides of the Church is best able to speak , utters no more then this ; and less then this , the most simple doth not utter . Therefore the Creed ( of which he speaks ) is a common , is a constant Foundation . And an Explicite Faith must be of this , in them which have the use of Reason ; for both Guides , and simple people , all the Church utter this .

Num. 4 Now many things are defined by the Church , which are but Deductions out of this : which ( suppose them deduced right ) move far from the foundation ; without which Deductions explicitly believed , many millions of Christians go to Heaven ; and cannot therefore be fundamental in the Faith . True Deductions from the Article may require necessary belief , in them which are able , and do go along with them from the Principle to the Conclusion . But I do not see , either that the Learned do make them necessary to all , or any reason why they should . Therefore they cannot be fundamental ; and yet to some mens Salvation they are necessary .

Num. 5 Besides , that which is fundamental in the Faith of Christ , is a Rock immoveable , and can never be varied . Never * * Resolutio Occhami est , quòd nec tota Ecclesia , nec Concilium Generale , nec summus Ponti●ex potest facere Articulum , quod non ●uit Articulus . Sed in dubiis Propositionibus potest Ecclesia determinare , an sint Catholicae , &c. Tamen sic determinando non facit quod sint Catholicae , quum prius essent ante Ecclesie Determinationem , &c. Almain . in 3. D 25. Q. 1. . Therefore , if it be fundamental after the Church hath defined it , it was fundamental before the Definition , else it is moveable ; and then no Christian hath where to rest . And if it be immoveable , as † † Regul● Fidei una omninò est , sola illa immobilis , & irreformabilis . Tertul. de Virg. v●l . cap. 1. In ●ac ●ide , &c. Nihil transmutar● , &c. Athan. Epist. ad Jovin . de Fide . indeed it is , no Decree of a Councel , be it never so General , can alter immoveable Verities , no more then it can change immoveable Natures . Therefore if the Church in a Councel define any thing , the thing defined is not fundamental , because the Church hath defined it ; nor can be made so by the Definition of the Church , if it be not so in it self . For if the Church had this power , she might make a new Article of the Faith , * * Oceham . Almain . in 3. Sent. D. 25. q. 1 which the Learned among your selves deny : For the Articles of the Faith cannot increase in substance , but only in Explication * * Thom. 2. 2. q. 1. Ar. 7. C. . And for this , I 'le be judg'd by Bellarmine , † † Fides Divina non ideo habet certitadinem , quia toti Ecclesiae communis est : sed quia nititur Authoritate Dei , qui nec falli , nec fallere potest , quum sit ipsa Veritas . L. 3. de Justif. c. 3. §. Quod verò Concilium . Probatio Ecclesiae facit ut omnibus innotes●at Objectum ( Fidei Divinae ) esse revelatum à Deo , & propter hoc certum & indubitatum ; non autem tribuit firmitatem verbo Dei aliquid revelantis . Ibid. §. At inquit . who disputing against Amb. Catharinus about the certainty of Faith , tells us , That Divine Faith hath not its certainty , because 't is Catholike , i. common to the whole Church ; but because it builds on the Authority of God , who is Truth it self , and can neither deceive , nor be deceived . And he adds , That the Probation of the Church can make it known to all , that the Object of Divine Faith is revealed from God , and therefore certain , and not to be doubted ; but the Church can adde no certainty , no firmness to the Word of God revealing it .

Num. 6 Nor is this hard to be farther proved out of your own School ; for * * Scotus in 1. Sent. D. 11. q. 1. Scotus professeth it in this very particular of the Greek Church : If there be ( saith he ) a true real difference between the Greeks and the Latines , about the Point of the Procession of the Holy Ghost , then either they or we be verè Haeretici , truly and indeed Hereticks . And he speaks this of the old Greeks , long before any Decision of the Church in this Controversie : For his instance is in S. Basil , and Greg. Nazianz. on the one side , and S. Hierome , Augustine , and Ambrose , on the other . And who dares call any of these Hereticks ? is his challenge . I deny not , but that Scotus adds there , That howsoever this was before , yet ex quo , from the time that the Catholike Church declared it , it is to be held as of the substance of Faith . But this cannot stand with his former Principle , if he intend by it , That whatsoever the Church defines , shall be ipso facto , and for that Determinations sake Fundamental . For if before the Determination ( supposing the Difference real ) some of those Worthies were truly Hereticks , ( as he confesses ) then somewhat made them so . And that could not be the Decree of the Church , which then was not : Therefore it must be somewhat really false , that made them so ; and fundamentally false , if it made them Hereticks against the Foundation . But Scotus was wiser then to intend this . It may be , he saw the stream too strong for him to swim against , therefore he went on with the Doctrine of the Time , That the Churches Sentence is of the substance of Faith ; but meant not to betray the truth : For he goes no farther then Ecclesia declaravit , since the Church hath declared it , which is the word that is used by divers † †

Bellarm. L. 2. d● Conc. Auth c. 12. Concilia cùn definiunt , non faciunt aliquid esse infallibilis veritatis , sed declarant . Explicare , Bonavent . in 1. d. 11. A. 1. q. 1. ad finem . Explanare , declarare . Tho. 1. q. 36. A. 2. ad . 2. & 2. 2. q. 1. A. 10. ad. 1.

Quid unquam aliud ( Ecclesia ) Conciliorum decr●tis enisa est , nisi ut quod antea simplicitè● Credebatur , hoc idem posted diligentiùs crederetur . Vin. Lyr. cont. ●●r . c. 32.

Num. 7 Now the a a Sent. 1. D. 11 Master teaches , and the b b Alb. Mag. in 1. Sent. D. 11. Art. 7. Scholars too , That every thing which belongs to the Exposition or Declaration of another , intus est , is not another contrary thing , but is contained within the Bowels and nature of that which is interpreted : from which , if the Declaration depart , it is faulty and erroneous ; because instead of declaring , it gives another , and contrary c c Hoc semper , nec quicquam praeterea . Vin. Lyr. c. 32. sense . Therefore , when the Church declares any thing in a Councel , either that which she declares , was intus , or extra ; in the nature and verity of the thing , or out of it . If it were extra , without the nature of the thing declared , then the Declaration of the thing is false , and so , far from being fundamental in the Faith d d In novâ Haeresi Veritas priùs erat de Fide , et si non ita declarata . Scotus in 1. D. 11. q. 1. in fine . Haeretici multa quae erant implicita fidei nostrae , compulerunt explicare . Bonavent . in 1. D. 11. A. 1. ● . 1. ad finem . Tho. 1. q. 36. A. 2. ad . 2. Quamvis Apostolica Sedes , aut Generale Concilium de Haeresi censere possit , no● tamen ide● Assertio aliqua erit Haeresis , quia Ecclesia definivit , sed quia Fidei Catholic● repug●at . Ecclesia siquidem suâ definitione non facit talem Assertionem esse Haeresin , quàm etiamsi ipsa non definivisset , esset Haeresis ; sed id efficit ut pateat , &c. Alphon. à Castro ▪ L. 1. Advers. Haeres . c. 8. ●ol . ●1 . D. . If it were intus , within the compass and nature of the thing , though not open and apparent to every eye ; then the Declaration is true , but not otherwise fundamental , then the thing is which is declared : for that which is intus , cannot be larger or deeper then that in which it is ; if it were , it could not be intus . Therefore nothing is simply fundamental , because the Church declares it , but because it is so in the nature of the thing , which the Church declares .

Num. 8 And it is slight and poor Evasion that is commonly used , that the Declaration of the Church makes it Fundamental , quoad nos , in respect of us ; for it doth not that neither : For no respect to us can vary the Foundation . The Churches Declaration can binde us to Peace , and External Obedience , where there is not express Letter of Scripture , and sense agreed on ; but it cannot make any thing fundamental to us , that is not so in its own Nature . For if the Church can so adde , that it can by a Declaration make a thing to be fundamental in the Faith , that was not ; then it can take a thing away from the foundation , and make it by declaring , not to be Fundamental ; which all men grant , no power of the Church can do . † † Ecclesia non amputat necessaria , non apponit supers●●a . Vin. Lyr. c. 32. For the power of adding any thing contrary , and of detracting any thing necessary , are alike forbidden * * Deut. 4. 2. , and alike denied . Now nothing is more apparent , then this , to the eye of all men , That the Church of Rome hath determined , or declared , or defined ( call it what you will ) very many * Thom. Supp . q. 6. A. 6. C. things , that are not in their own nature fundamental ; and therefore neither are , nor can be made so by her adjudging them . Now to all this discourse , that the Church hath not power to make any thing fundamental in the Faith , that intrinsecally , and in its own nature is not such , A. C. is content to say nothing .

Num. 9 2 For the second , That it is proved by this place of S. Augustine , That all points defined by the Church are fundamental . You might have given me that place cited in the Margin , and cased my pains to seek it ; but it may be there was somewhat in concealing it . For you do so extraordinarily right this place , that you were loth ( I think ) any body should see how you wrong it . The place of S. Augustine is this , against the Pelagians , about Remission of Original Sin in Infants : * * August . Serm. 14. de verb. Apost. c. 12. Fundata res ▪ est . In aliis . Quaestionibu● non diligen●èr digestis , nondum plenâ Ecclesiae Authoritate firmatis serendus est Disputator errans : ibi serendus est error ; non tantum progredi debet , ut etiam Fundamentum ipsum Ecclesiae quate●e mo●iatur . This is a thing founded : an erring Disputer is to be born with in other Questions not diligently digested , not yet made firm by full Authority of the Church , their errour is to be born with : but it ought not to go so far , that it should labour to shake the foundation it self of the Church . This is the place : but it can never follow out of this place ( I think ) That every thing defined by the Church is fundamental .

Num. 10 For first , he speaks of a foundation of Doctrine in Scripture , not a Church-definition . This appears : for , few lines before , he tells us , a a Ibid. c. 20. There was a Question moved to S. Cyprian , Whether Baptism was concluded to the eighth day , as well as Circumcision ? And no doubt was made then of the b b Origine Peccati . beginning of sin ; and that c c Ex eâ re , unde nu●●a erat Quaestio , soluta est exorta Quaestio . out of this thing , about which no Question was moved , that Question that was made , was Answered . And d d Hoc de Fundamento Ecclesi● sumpsit ad confirmandum Lapidem nutantem . again , That S. Cyprian took that which he gave in Answer from the foundation of the Church , to confirm a stone that was shaking . Now S. Cyprian in all the Answer that he gives , hath not one word of any Definition of the Church : therefore ea res , that thing by which he answered , was a Foundation of prime and setled Scripture-Doctrine , not any Definition of the Church : Therefore , that which he took out of the Foundation of the Church , to fasten the stone that shook , was not a Definition of the Church , but the Foundation of the Church it self , the Scripture , upon which it is builded : as appeareth in the e e Concil. Mi●●vit c. 2. Milevitane Councel ; where the Rule , by which Pelagius was condemned , is the Rule of f f Rom. 5. 15. Scripture : Therefore S. Augustine goes on in the same sense , That the Disputer is not to be born any longer , that shall g g Ut Fundamentum ipsum Ecclesiae quat●re moliatur . endeavour to shake the foundation it self , upon which the whole Church is grounded .

Num. 11 Secondly , If S. Augustine did mean by Founded , and Foundation , the definition of the Church , because of these words , This thing is founded , this is made firm by full Authority of the Church ; and the words following these , to shake the foundation of the Church ; yet it can never follow out of any , or all these Circumstances ( and these are all ) That all points defined by the Church , are fundamental in the Faith . For first , no man denies , but the Church is a h h 1 Tim. 3. 15 Foundation ; That things defined by it , are founded upon it : And yet hence it cannot follow , That the thing that is so founded , is Fundamental in the Faith : For things may be i i Mos fundatissimus S. Aug E● . 28. founded upon Humane Authority , and be very certain , yet not Fundamental in the Faith . Nor yet can it follow , This thing is founded , therefore every thing determined by the Church , is founded . Again that which follows , That those things are not to be opposed , which are made firm by full Authority of the Church , cannot conclude , they are therefore Fundamental in the Faith . For full Church-Authority ( always the time that included the Holy Apostles being past by , and not comprehended in it ) is but Church-Authority ; and Church-Authority , when it is at Full Sea , is not simply k k Staple . Relect. cont. 4. q 3. A. 1. Divine , therefore the Sentence of it not fundamental in the Faith . And yet no erring Disputer may be indured to shake the foundation , which the Church in Councel lays . But plain Scripture with evident sense , or a full demonstrative Argument must have room , where a wrangling and erring Disputer may not be allowed it . And there 's l l Q●● quidem , si tam manifesta monstratur , ut in dubium venire non possit , pr●ponenda est omnibus illis rebu● , quibus in Catholicâ ten●or . Ita si aliquid apertissimum in Evangelio . S. August . contra Fund . c. 4. neither of these , but may convince the Definition of the Councel , if it be ill founded . And the Articles of the Faith may easily prove it is not Fundamental , if indeed and verily it be not so .

Num. 12 And I have read some-body that says ( is it not you ? ) That things are fundamental in the Faith two ways : One , in their Matter , such as are all things which be so in themselves ; The other , in the Manner , such as are all things that the Church hath defined , and determined to be of Faith : And that so , some things that are de modo , of the manner of being , are of Faith . But in plain truth , this is no more , then if you should say , Some things are fundamental in the Faith , and some are not . For wrangle while you will , you shall never be able to prove , that any thing which is but de modo , a consideration of the manner of being only , can possibly be fundamental in the Faith .

Num. 13 And since you make such a Foundation of this place , I will a little view the Mortar with which it is laid by you . It is a venture , but I shall finde it a a Ezek. 13. 11 untempered . Your Assertion is : All Points defined by the Church are fundamental . Your proof , this place : Because that is not to be shaken , which is setled by b b Plenâ Ecclesiae Authoritate . full Authority of the Church . Then ( it seems ) your meaning is , that this point there spoken of , The remission of Original Sin in Baptism of Infants , was defined , when S. Augustine wrote this , by a full Sentence of a General Councel . First , if you say it was : c c L. 2. de Author . Concil. c. ● §. A solis particularibus . Bellarmine will tell you , it is false ; and that the Pelagian Heresie was never condemned in an Oecumenical Councel , but only in Nationals . But Bellarmine is deceived : For while the Pelagians stood out impudently against National Councels , some of them defended Nestorius ; which gave occasion to the first d d Can. 1. & 4. Ephesine Councel to Excommunicate , and depose them . And yet this will not serve your turn for this place . For S. Augustine was then dead , and therefore could not mean the Sentence of that Councel in this place . Secondly , if you say , it was not then defined in an Oecumenical Synod ; Plena Authoritas Ecclesiae , the full Authority of the Church there mentioned , doth not stand properly for the Decree of an Oecumenical Councel , but for some National ; as this was condemned in a e e Concil. Milevit . Can. 2. National Councel : And then the full Authority of the Church here , is no more then the full Authority of the Church of f f Nay if your own Capellus be true , De Appell . Eccl. A●ric . c. 2. n. 5. it was but a Provincial of Numidia , not a Plenary of Africk . Africk . And I hope that Authority doth not make all Points defined by it to be fundamental . You will say , Yes : if that Councel be confirmed by the Pope . And then I must ever wonder , why S. Augustine should say , The full Authority of the Church , and not bestow one word upon the Pope , by whose Authority only that Councel , as all other , have their fulness of Authority in your Judgment . An inexpiable Omission ; if this Doctrine concerning the Pope were true .

Num. 14 But here A. C. steps in again to help the Jesuite ; and he tells us , over and over again , That all points made firm by full Authority A. C. p. 45. of the Church are fundamental ; so , firm he will have them , and therefore fundamental . But I must tell him : That first , 't is one thing in Nature , and Religion too , to be firm ; and another thing to be fundamental . These two are not Convertible . 'T is true , that every thing that is fundamental , is firm : But it doth not follow , that every thing that is firm , is fundamental . For many a Superstructure is exceeding firm , being fast , and close joyned to a sure foundation , which , yet no man will grant , is fundamental . Besides , whatsoever is fundamental in the Faith , is fundamental to the Church , which is one by the unity g g Almain . in 3. Sent. Di● . 25. q. 1. A Fide enim 〈◊〉 Ecclesia dicitur un● . of Faith . Therefore if every thing defined by the Church be fundamental in the Faith ; then the Churches Desinition is the Churches foundation . And so upon the matter , the Church can lay her own foundation ; and then , the Church must be in absolute and perfect Being , before so much as her foundation is laid . Now this is so absurd for any man of Learning to say , that by and by after A. C. is content to affirm , not only , that the prima Credibilia , the Articles of Faith , but all which so pertains to Supernatural , Divine , and Infallible Christian Faith , as that thereby Christ doth dwell in our hearts , &c. is the foundation of the Church under Christ the Prime Foundation . And here he 's out again . For first , all which pertains to Supernatural , Divine and Infallible Christian Faith , is not by and by * * Aliquid pertinet ad Fidem dupliciter . u●● modo directè , sicut t● que nobis sunt principali●●● divirit●s tradita , ut Deum esse Trinum , &c. Et circa haec opinari fallum hoc ●p●● inducit Haeresin , &c. Alio modo indirectè . Ex quibus consequitur aliquid contrarium Fidei , &c. Et in his aliquis potest falsum opinari absque periculo Haeresis , donec Sequela illa ti innotescat , &c. Tho. p. 1. q. 32. A. 4. C. There are things necessary to the Faith ; and things which are but accessory , &c. Hooker L. 3. Eccl. Pol. §. 3. fundamental in the Faith to all men . And secondly , the whole Discourse here is concerning Faith , as it is taken Objectivè for the Object of Faith , and thing to be believed ; but that Faith by which Christ is said to dwell in our hearts , is taken Subjective , for the Habit and Act of Faith . Now to confound both these in one period of speech , can have no other aim , then to confound the Reader . But to come closer both to the Jesuite , and his Defender A. C. If all Points made firm by full Authority of the Church be fundamental , then they must grant , that every thing determined by the Councel of Trent is fundamental in the Faith . For with them 't is firm and Catholike , which that Councel Decrees . Now that Councel Decrees , † † Si quis Dixerit Ordines ab Episcopis collatos sine populi vel potestatis saecularis conse●su aut vocatione irritos esse ; Anathema sit . Con. Trid. Sess. 23. Can. 7. That Orders collated by the Bishop are not void , though they be given without the consent or calling of the People , or of any Secular Power . And yet they can produce no Author that ever acknowledged this Definition of the Councel fundamental in the Faith . 'T is true , I do not grant , that the Decrees of this Councel are made by full Authority of the Church ; but they do both grant and maintain it : And therefore 't is Argumentum ad hominem , a good argument against them , that a thing so defined may be firm , for so this is ; and yet not fundamental , for so this is not .

Num. 15 But A. C. tells us further , That if one may deny , or doubtfully dispute against any one Determination of the Church , then A. C. p. 45. he may against another , and another , and so against all ; since all are made firm to us by one and the same Divine Revelation , sufficiently applied by one and the same full Authority of the Church ; which being weakned in any one , cannot be firm in any other . First , A. C. might have acknowledged that he borrowed the former part of this out of * * Co●t . Haeres . c. 31. Abdicatri enim qualibet parte Catholici Dogmatis , alia quoque atque item alia , &c. Quid aliud ad extremum sequtur ; nisi ut totum paritèr repu●ietur ? Vincentius Lirinensis . And as that Learned Father uses it , I subscribe to it , but not as A. C. applies it . For Vincentius speaks there de Catholico Dogmate , of Catholick Maximes : and A. C. will force it to every Determination of the Church . Now Catholike Maximes , which are properly fundamental , are §. 38. N. 21. certain prime truths deposited with the Church , and not so much determined by the Church , as published and manifested , and so made firm by her to us . For so † † Ecclesia Depositorum apud se Dogmatum Custos , &c. Denique quid unquam Conciliorum Decretis enisa est , nisi , ut quod a●tea simpliciter credebatur , hoc idem postea diligentiùs crederetur , &c. Vin. Lir. cont. Haeres . c. 32. Vincentius expresly . Where , all that the Church doth , is but , ut hoc idem quod anteà , that the same thing may be believed , which was before believed , but with more light , and clearness , and ( in that sense ) with more firmness , then before . Now in this sense , give way to a Disputator errans , every Cavilling Disputer to deny , or quarrel at the Maximes of Christian Religion , any one , or any part of any one of them ; and why may he not then take liberty to do the like of any other , till he have shaken all ? But this hinders not the Church her self , nor any appointed by the Church to examine her own Decrees , and to see that she keep Dogmata deposita , the Principles of Faith unblemished , and uncorrupted . For if she do not so , but that * * Vin. Lir. cont. Haeres . c. 31. Impiorum & turpium Errorum Lupanar : ubi erat antè caste & incorruptae Sacrarium Veritatis . Novitia veteribus , new Doctrines be added to the old ; the Church , which is Sacrarium veritatis , the Repository of Verity , may be changed in lupanar errorum , I am loath to English it . By the Church then this may , nay it ought to be done , however , every wrangling Disputer may neither deny , nor doubtfully dispute , much less obstinately oppose the Determinations of the Church , no not where they are not Dogmata Deposita , these deposited Principles . But if he will be so bold to deny or dispute the Determinations of the Church ; yet that may be done without shaking the foundation , where the Determinations themselves belong but to the fabrick , and not to the foundation . For a whole frame of Building may be shaken , and yet the foundation where it is well laid , remain firm . And therefore after all , A. C. dares not say , the foundation is shaken , but A. C. p. 46. only in a sort . And then 't is as true , that in a sort it is not shaken .

Num. 16 2 For the second part of his Argument , A. C. must pardon me , if I dissent from him . For first , All Determinations of the Church are not made firm to us by one and the same Divine Revelation . For some Determinations of the Church are made firm to us , per chirographum † † Vin. Lir. cont. Haer. c. 32. Scripturae , by the hand-writing of the Scripture ; and that 's Authentical indeed . Some other Decisions , yea and of the Church too , are made , or may be ( if † † Relect. cont. 4. q. 1. Art. 3. Etiamsi nùllo Scripturarum , aut evidenti , aut pro●àbili Testimonio , &c. Stapleton inform us right ) without an evident , nay without so much as a probable Testimony of Holy Writ . But * * Non potest aliquid certum esse certitudint fidei , nisi aut immediatè contineatur in Verbo Dei , aut èx Verbe Dei per evidentem consequentiam deducatur . Bellar. L. 3. de Justificat . c. 8. §. Prima Ratio . Bellarmine falls quite off in this , and confesses in express terms , That nothing can be certain by certainty of Faith , unless it be contained immediately in the Word of God ; or be deduced out of the Word of God by evident consequence . And if nothing can be certain but so , then certainly no Determination of the Church it self , if that Determination be not grounded upon one of these : either express Word of God , or evident consequence out of it . So here 's little agreement in this great Point between Stapleton and Bellarmine . Nor can this be shifted off , as if Stapleton spake of the Word of God Written , and Bellarmine of the Word of God Unwritten ( as he calls Tradition . ) For Bollarmine treats there of the knowledge which a man hath of the certainty of his own Salvation . And I hope A. C. will not tell us , there 's any Tradition extant unwritten , by which particular men may have assurance of their several Salvations . Therefore Bellarmine's whole Disputation there is quite beside the matter : or else he must speak of the written Word , and so lye cross to Stapleton , as is mentioned . But to return . If A. C. will , he may , but I cannot believe , that a Definition of the Church , which is made by the express Word of God , and another which is made without so much as a probable Testimony of it , or a clear Deduction from it , are made firm to us by one and the same Divine Revelation . Nay , I must say in this case , that the one Determination is firm by Divine Revelation , but the other hath no Divine Revelation at all , but the Churches Authority only .

● Secondly , I cannot believe neither , That all Determinations of the Church are sufficiently applied by one and the same full Authority of the Church . For the Authority of the Church , though it be of the same fulness in regard of it self , and of the Power which it commits to General Councels lawfully called : yet it is not always of the same fulness of knowledge and sufficiency ; nor of the same fulness of Conscience , and integrity to apply Dogmata Fidei , that which is Dogmatical in the Faith . For instance , I think you dare not deny but the Councel of Trent was lawfully called ; and yet I am of Opinion , that few , even of your selves , believe that the Councel of Trent hath the same fulness with the Councel of Nice , in all the forenamed kinds , or degrees of fulness . Thirdly , suppose that all Determinations of the Church are made firm to us by one and the same Divine Revelation , and sufficiently applied by one and the sante full Authority ; yet it will not follow , that they are all alike fundamental in the Faith . For I hope A. C. himself will not say , that the Definitions of the Church are in better condition , then the Propositions of Canonical Scripture . Now all Propositions of Canonical Scripture are alike firm , because they all alike proceed from Divine Revelation : but they are not all alike fundamental in the Faith . For this Proposition of Christ to S. Peter and S. Andrew , Follow me , and I will make you fishers of men * * S. Mat. 4. 19. , is as firm a truth , as that which he delivered to his Disciples , That he must die , and rise again the third day † † S. Mat. 16. 21. : For both proceed from the same Divine Revelation , out of the mouth of our Saviour ; and both are sufficiently applied by one and the same full Authority of the Church , which receives the whole Gospel of S. Matthew to be Canonical and Infallible Scripture . And yet both these Propositions of Christ are not alike fundamental in the Faith . For I dare say , No man shall be saved ( in the ordinary way of Salvation ) that believes not the Death and the Resurrection of Christ . And I believe A. C. dares not say , that no man shall be saved , into whose capacity it never came , that Christ made S. Peter and Andrew fishers of men . And yet should he say it , nay should he shew it sub annulo Piscatoris , no man will believe it , that hath not made shipwrack of his common Notions . Now if it be thus between Proposition and Proposition issuing out of Christ's own Mouth ▪ I hope it may well be so also between even Just and True Determinations of the Church , that supposing them alike true and firm , yet they shall not be alike fundamental to all mens belief .

Secondly , I required to know , what Points the Bishop would account Fundamental . He said , all the Points of the Creed were such .

§ . 11 Num. 1 Against this I hope you except not . For since the a a Tertull. Apol. contra Gentes , c. 47. de v●land . virg. c. 1. S. August . Serm. 15. de Temp. cap. 2. Ruffin . in Symb. apud Cyprian . p. 357. Fathers make the Creed the Rule of Faith ; b b Alb. Mag. in 1. Sent. D. 11. A. 7. since the agreeing sense of Scripture with those Articles are the two Regular Precepts by which a Divine is governed about the Faith ; since your own Councel of c c Concil. Trident. Sess. 3. Trent Decrees , That it is that Principle of Faith , in which all that profess Christ , do necessarily agree , & fundamentum firmum & unicum , not the firm alone , but the only foundation ; since it is Excommunication d d Bonavent . ibid. Dub. 2. & 3. in lite●am . ipso jure , for any man to contradict the Articles contained in that Creed ; since the whole Body of the Faith is so contained in the Creed , as that the e e Thom. 2. 2●● q. 1. Art. 7. c. substance of it was believ'd even before the coming of Christ , though not so expresly as since in the number of the Articles ; since f f Bellar. L. 4. de Verb. Dei non Script . c. 11. §. Primum est . Bellarmine confesses , That all things simply necessary for all mens Salvation are in the Creed , and the Decalogue ; what reason can you have to except ? And yet for all this , every thing fundamental is not of a like nearness to the foundation , nor of equal primeness in the Faith . And my granting the Creed to be fundamental , doth not deny , but that there are g g Tho. 2. 2. e. q. 1. A. 7. C. quaedam prima Credibilia , certain prime Principles of Faith , in the bosom whereof ▪ all other Articles lay wrapped and folded up . One of which since Christ , is that of h h 1 S. Joh ▪ 4. 2 〈◊〉 S. John : Every spirit that confesseth Jesus Christ come in the flesh , is of God . And one , both before the coming of Christ , and since , is that of S. Paul : i i Heb. 11. 6. He that comes to God , must believe that God is , and that be is a rewarder of them that seek him .

Num. 2 Here A. C. tells you , That either I must mean that those points are only fundamental , which are expressed in the Creed ; A. C. p. 40. or those also which are infolded . If I say , those only which are expressed , then ( saith he ) to believe the Scriptures is not fundamental , because 't is not expressed . If I say , those which are infolded in the Articles , then some unwritten Church-Traditions may be accounted fundamental . The truth is , I said , and say still , that all the Points of the Apostles Creed , as they are there expressed , are fundamental . And therein I say no more , then some of your best Learned have said before me . But I never either said , or meant , that they only are fundamental ; that they are * * Conc. Trident. Sess. 3. Fundamentum unicum , the only Foundation , is the Councel of Trent's ; 't is not mine . Mine is , That the belief of Scripture to be the Word of God , and Infallible , is an equal , or rather a preceding Prime Principle of Faith , with , or to the whole Body of the Creed . And this agrees ( as before I told the Jesuite ) with one of your own great Masters , Albertus Magnus † † I● 1. Sent. D. 11. A. 7. Regula Fidei est concors Scripturarum sensus cum Articulis Fide● : Quia illis duobus regularibus Praeceptis regitur The●logus . , who is not far from that Proposition in terminis . So here the very foundation of A. C ' . Dilemma falls off . For I say not , That only the Points of the Creed are fundamental , whether expressed , or not expressed . That all of them are , that I say . And yet though the foundation of his Dilemma be fallen away , I will take the boldness to tell A. C. That if I had said , that those Articles only which are expressed in the Creed , are fundamental , it would have been hard to have excluded the Scripture , upon which the Creed it self in every Point is grounded . For nothing is supposed to shut out its own foundation . And if I should now say , that some Articles are fundamental which are infolded in the Creed , it would not follow , that therefore some unwritten Traditions were fundamental . Some Traditions I deny not true and firm , and of great , both Authority , and Use in the Church , as being Apostolical , but yet not fundamental in the Faith . And it would be a mighty large fold , which should lap up Traditions within the Creed . As for that Tradition , That the Books of holy Scriptures are Divine , and Infallible in every part , I will handle that when I come to the proper place * * §. 16. N. 1. for it .

I asked how then it happened ( as M. Rogers saith ) that the English Church is not yet resolved , what is the right sense of the Article of Christ's descending into Hell .

§ . 12 Num. 1 The English Church never made doubt ( that I know ) what was the sense of that Article . The words are so plain , they bear th●●● meaning before them . She was content to put that † † Art. 3. Arti●●● among those , to which she requires Subscription , not as doubting of the sense , but to prevent the Cavils of some , who had been too busie in crucifying that Article , and in making it all one with the Article of the Cross , or but an Exposition of it .

Num. 2 And surely , for my part , I think the Church of England is better resolved of the right sense of this Article , then the Church of Rome , especially if she must be tryed by her Writers , as you try the Church of England by M. Rogers . For , you cannot agree , whether this Article be a meer Tradition , or whether it hath any place of Scripture to warrant it . a a Scotus in 1. D. 11. q. 1. Scotus , and b b Stapleton Kelect . Con. 5. q. 5. Art. 1. Stapleton allow it no footing in Scripture , but c c Bellar. 4. de Christo. c. 6. & 12. Scripturae passin hoc docent . Bellarmine is resolute , that this Article is every where in Scripture ; and d d Thom. 2. 2ae . q. 1. A. 9. ad 1. Thomas grants as much for the whole Creed . The Church of England never doubted it , and e e S. Aug. Ep. ' 99. S. Augustine proves it .

Num. 3 And yet again , you are different for the sense . For you agree not , Whether the Soul of Christ , in triduo mortis , in the time of his Death , did go down into Hell really , and was present there ; or vertually , and by effects only . For f f Tho. p. 3. q. 52. A. 2. c. per suam essentiam . Thomas holds the first , and g g Durand ▪ in 3. d. 22. q. q. 3. Durand the later . Then you agree not , Whether the Soul of Christ did descend really and in essence into the lowest Pit of Hell , and place of the Damned , as h h Bellar. L. 4. de Christo. c. 16 ▪ Bellarmine once held probable , and proved it ; or really only into that place , or Region of Hell , which you call Limbum Patrum ; and then , but vertually from thence into the Lower Hell : to which i i Bellar. Recog. p. 11. Bellarmine reduces himself , and gives his reason , because it is the k k Sequuntur enim . Tho. p. 3. Q. 52. A. 2. common Opinion of the School . Now the Church of England takes the words as they are in the Creed , and believes them without farther Dispute , and in that sense which the ancient Primitive Fathers of the Church agreed in . And yet if any in the Church of England should not be throughly resolved in the sense of this Article ; Is it not as lawful for them to say [ I conceive thus , or thus of it ; yet if any other way of his Descent be found truer than this , I deny it not , but as yet I know no other ] as it was for * * Non est pertinaciter asserendum , quin Ani●a Christi per alium modum nobis ignotum potuerit descendere ad Insernum : Nec nos negamus alium modum esse forsitan veriorem ; sed fatemur nos illum ignorare . Durand . in 3. Sent. Dist. 22. q. 3. Nu. 9. Durand to say it , and yet not impeach the Foundation of the Faith .

The Bishop said , That M. Rogers was but a private man . But ( said I ) if M. Rogers ( writing as he did by publike Authority ) be accounted onely a private man , &c.

§ . 13 Num. 1 I said truth , when I said M. Rogers was a private man . And I take it , you will not allow every speech of every 〈…〉 , though allowed by Authority to have his Books Printed , to be the Doctrine of the Church of Rome . † † And this was an Ancient fault too , for S. Augustine Checks at it in his time . Noli colligere calumnias ex Episcoporum scriptis , sive Hillarii , sive Cypriani & Agrippini . Primò , quia hoc genus literarum ab Authoritate Ca●o●●s distinguendum est . Non enim sic leguntur tanquam ita ex iis testimonium proferatur , ut contrà sentire non liceat , sicubi fortè aliter sentirent , quà● veritas postulat . S. Aug. Ep. 48. &c. And yet these were far greater men in their generations , than M. Rogers was . This hath been oft complained of on both sides : The imposing particular mens assertions upon the Church : yet I see you mean not to leave it . And surely as Controversies are now handled ( by some of your party ) at this day , I may not say , it is the sense of the Article in hand , But I have long thought it a kinde of descent into Hell , to be conversant in them . I would the Authors would take heed in time , and not seek to blinde the People , or cast a mist before evident Truth lest it cause a final descent to that place of Torment . But since you will hold this course , Stapleton was of greater note with you , than M. Rogers his Exposition , or Notes upon the Articles of the Church of England is with us . And as he , so his Relection . And is it the Doctrine of the Church of Rome which Stapleton affirms , ‖ ‖ Stapl. Cont. 5. q. 5. A. 1. The Scripture is silent , that Christ descended into Hell , and that there is a Catholike and an Apostolike Church ? If it be , then what will become of the Pope's Supremacie over the whole Church ? Shall he have his power over the Catholike Church given him expresly in Scripture , in the * * Mat. 16. 9. Keyes , to enter ; and in † † S. Joh. 21. 16. Pasce , to feed when he is in ; and when he had fed , to ‖ ‖ ● . Luk. 22. 32. Confirm ; and in all these , not to erre and fail in his Ministration : And is the Catholike Church , in and over which he is to do all these great things , quite left out of the Scripture ? Belike the Holy Ghost was careful to give him his power ; Yes in any case ; but left the assigning of his great Cure , the Catholike Church , to Tradition . And it were well for him , if he could so prescribe for what he now Claims .

Num. 2 But what if after all this , M. Rogers there says no such thing ? As in truth , he doth not . His words are : * * Rogers in Art. Eccles. Angl. Art. 3. All Christians acknowledge , He descended ; but in the interpretation of the Article , there is not that consent , that were to be wished . What is this to the Church of England , more than others ? And again , † † Ibid. Till we know the native and undoubted sense of this Article , is M. Rogers [ We ] the Church of England ? or rather his , and some others Judgment , in the Church of England ?

Num. 3 Now here A. C. will have somewhat again to say , though , A. C. p. 47. God knows , 't is to little purpose . 'T is , that the Jesuit urged M. Roger's Book , because it was set out by Publike Authority : And because the Book bears the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England . A. C. may undoubtedly urge M. Rogers , if he please ; But he ought not to say , that his Opinion is the Doctrine of the Church of England , for neither of the Reasons by him expressed . First , not because his Book was publikely allowed . For many Books among them , as well as among us , have been Printed by publike Authority , as containing nothing in them contrary to Faith and good manners , and yet containing many things in them of Opinion only , or private Judgment , which yet is far from the avowed Positive Doctrine of the Church , the Church having as yet determined neither way by open Declaration upon the words , or things controverted . And this is more frequent among their School-men , than among any of our Controversers , as is well known . Nor secondly , because his Book bears the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England . For suppose the worst , and say , M. Rogers thought a little too well of his own pains , and gave his Book too high a Title ; is his private Judgment therefore to be accounted the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England ? Surely no : No more than I should say , every thing said by * * Angelici D. S. Tho. Summa . Thomas , or † † Celebratissimi Patris Dom. Bonaventurae Doctoris Seraphici in 3. L. Sent. Disputata . Bonaventure , is Angelical , or Seraphical Doctrine , because one of these is stiled in the Church of Rome , Seraphical , and the other , Angetical Doctor . And yet their works are Printed by Publike Authority , and that Title given them .

Num. 4 Yea , but our private Authors ( saith A. C. ) are not allowed A. C. p. 47. ( for ought I know ) in such a like sort to express our Catholike Doctrine in any matter subject to Question . Here are two Limitations , which will go far to bring A. C. off , whatsoever I shall say against him : For first , let me instance in any ▪ private man , that takes as much upon him as M. Rogers doth , he will say , he know it not , his Assertion here being no other , then for ought he knows . Secondly If he be unwilling to acknowledge so much , yet he will answer , 't is not just in such a like sort as M. Rogers doth it , that is , perhaps , it is not the very Title of his Book . But well then : Is there never a Private man allowed in the Church of Rome to express your Catholike Doctrine in any matter subject to Question ? What ? Not in any matter ? Were not Vega and Soto two private men ? Is it not a matter subject to Question , to great Question in these Days , Whether a man may be certain of his being in the state of Salvation , certitudine fidei , by the certainty of Faith ? Doth not * * Bellar. Lib. 3. de Justific . c. 1. & 14. Bellarmine make it a Controversie ? And is it not a part of your Catholike Faith , if it be determined in the † † Huic Concilio Catho●ici omnes ingenia sua , & judicia sponte subjiciunt . Bellar. L. 3. de Justif. c. 3. S. Sed Concilii Tridentini . Councel of Trent ? And yet these two great Fryers of their time , Dominicus Soto , and Andreas Vega ‖ ‖ Hist Concil. Trident. Lib. 2. p. 245. Edit. Lat. Leidae , 1622. were of contrary Opinions ; and both of them challenged the Decree of the Councel ; and so consequently your Catholike Faith to be as each of them concluded : and both of them wrote Books to maintain their Opinions ; and both of their Books were published by Authority . And therefore I think 't is allowed in the Church of Rome to private men to express your Catholike Doctrine , and in a matter subject to Question . And therefore also ▪ if another man in the Church of England , should be of a contrary Opinion to M. Rogers , and declare it under the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England , this were no more than Soto and Vega did in the Church of Rome . And I , for my part , cannot but wonder A. C. should not know it . For A. C. p. 47. he says , that for ought he knows , private men are not allowed so to express their Catholike Doctrine . And in the same Question both Catharinus and Bellarmine * * Bellar L. 3. de Justif. c. 3. take on them , to express your Catholike Faith , the one differing from the other , almost as much as Soto and Vega , and perhaps in some respect more .

But if M. Rogers be only a private man ; in what Book may we find the Protestants publike Doctrine ? The Bishop answered , That to the Book of Articles they were all sworn .

§ . 14 Num. 1 What ? Was I so ignorant to say , The Articles of the Church of England were the Publike Doctrine of all the Protestants ? Or , that all the Protestants were sworn to the Articles of England , as this speech seems to imply ? Sure I was not . Was not the immediate speech before of the Church of England ? And how comes the Subject of the Speech to be varied in the next lines ? Nor yet speak I this , as if other Protestants did not agree with the Church of England in the chiefest Doctrines , and in the main Exceptions , which they joyntly take against the Roman Church , as appears by their several Confessions . But if A. C. will A. C. p. 47. say ( as he doth ) that because there was speech before of the Church of England , the Jesuite understood me in a limited sense , and meant only the Protestants of the English Church ; Be it so ; there 's no great harm done † † And therefore A. C. needs not make such a Noise about it , as he doth , page 48. but this , that the Jesuite offers to inclose me too much . For I did not say , that the Book of Articles only was the Continent of the Church of Englands publike Doctrine : She is not so narrow , nor hath she purpose to exclude any thing which she acknowledges hers , nor doth she wittingly permit any Crossing of her publike Declarations ; yet she is not such a shrew to her Children , as to deny her Blessing ; or Denounce an Anathema against them , if some peaceably dissent in some Particulars remoter from the Foundation , as your own School-men differ . And if the Church of Rome , since she grew to her greatness , had not been so fierce in this Course , and too particular in Determining too many things , and making them matters of Necessary Belief , which had gone for many hundreds of years before , only for things of Pious Opinion ; Christendom ( I perswade my self ) had been in happier peace at this Day , than ( I doubt ) we shall ever live to see it .

Num. 2 Well , But A. C. will prove the Church of England a Shrew , A. C. p. 48. and such a Shrew . For in her Book * * Can. 5. of Canons She excommunicates every man , who shall hold any thing contrary to any part of the said Articles . So A. C. But surely these are not the very words of the Canon , nor perhaps the sense . Not the Words ; for they are : Whosoever shall affirm that the Articles are in any part superstitious , or erronious , &c. And perhaps not the sense . For it is one thing for a man to hold an Opinion privately within himself ; and another thing boldly and publikely to affirm it . And again , 't is one thing to hold contrary to some part of an Article , which perhaps may be but in the manner of Expression ; and another thing positively to affirm , that the Articles in any part of them are superstitious , and erroneous . But this is not the Main of the Business : For though the Church of England Denounce Excommunication , as is † † Can. 5. before expressed ; Yet she comes far short of the Church of Rome's severity , whose Anathema's are not only for 39 Articles , but for very many more , * * Concil. Trident . above one hundred in matters of Doctrine ; and that in many Poynts as far remote from the Foundation , though to the far greater Rack of mens Consciences , they must be all made Fundamental , if that Church have once Determined A. C. p. 45. them : whereas the Church of England never declared , That every one of her Articles are Fundamental in the Faith . For 't is one thing to say , No one of them is superstitious or erroneous : And quite another to say , Every one of them is fundamental , and that in every part of it , to all mens Belief . Besides , the Church of England prescribes only to her own Children , and by those Articles provides but for her own peaceable Consent in those Doctrines of Truth . But the Church of Rome severely imposes her Doctrine upon the whole World under pain of Damnation .

And that the Scriptures only , not any unwritten Tradition , was the Foundation of their Faith .

§ . 15 Num. 1 The Church of England grounded her Positive Articles upon Scripture ; and her Negative do refute there , where , the thing affirmed by you , is not affirmed by Scripture , nor directly to be concluded out of it . And here not the Church of England only , but all Protestants , agree most truly , and most strongly in this , That the Scripture is sufficient to salvation , and contains in it all things necessary to it . The Fathers * * S. Basil. de ver. ● & pi● fide . Manifesta defectio . Fidei est importare quicquam eorum que scripta non sunt . S. Hilar. L. 2. ad Const. Aug. Fidem ta●●●n secuad●● ea que scripta sunt deside● antem , & hoc qui repudiat , Antichristus est , & qui simulat , Anathema est . S. Aug. L. 2. de Doctr. Christian. c. 9. In iis quae apertè in Scripturâ posita sunt , inveniuntur illa omnia quae continent fidem , morésque vivendi . And to this place Bellarm. L 4. de verbo Dei non script● , cap. 11. saith , that S. Augustine speaks de illis Dogmatibus quae necessaria sunt omnibus simplicit●r , of those Points of Faith , which are necessary simply for all men . So far then he grants the Question . And that you may know , it fell not from him on the sudden , he had said as much before , in the beginning of the same Chapter , and here he confirma it again . are plain , the † † Scotus Prolog . in sent. q. 2. Scriptura sufficient●r conti●●t Doctrinam necessariam Viatori . Thom. 2. 2● q. 1. A. 10. ad 1. In Doctrin● Christi & Apostolorum , veritas fidei est sufficientèr explicata . And he speaks there of the written Word . School-men not strangers in it . And have not we reason then to account it , as it is , The Foundation of our Faith ? And ‖ ‖ Scripturam Fundamentum esse , & Columnam Fidei fatemur in suo genere , i. e. in genere Testimoniorum , & in mater●● Credendorum . Relect. Con. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. in fine . Stapleton himself , though an angry Opposite , confesses , That the Scripture is in some sort the Foundation of Faith , that is , in the nature of Testimony , and in the matter , or thing to be believed . And if the Scripture be the Foundation , to which we are to go for witness , if there be Doubt about the Faith , and in which we are to find the thing that is to be believed , as necessary in the Faith ; we never did , nor never will refuse any Tradition that is Universal , and Apostolike , for the better Exposition of the Scripture ; nor any Definition of the Church , in which she goes to the Scripture , for what she teaches ; and thrusts nothing as Fundamental in the Faith upon the world , but what the Scripture fundamentally makes materiam Credendorum , the substance of that which is so to be believed , whether immediately and expresly in words , or more remotely , where a clear and full Deduction draws it out .

Num. 2 Against the beginning of this Paragraph A. C. excepts . And first A. C. p. 48. he says , 'T is true , that the Church of England grounded her Positive Articles upon Scripture : That is , 't is true , if themselves may be competent Judges in their own Cause . But this by the leave of A. C. is true , without making our selves Judges in our own Cause . For , that all the Positive Articles of the present Church of England are grounded upon Scripture , we are content to be judged by the joynt and constant Belief of the Fathers , which lived within the first four or five hundred years after Christ , when the Church was at the best ; and by the Councels held within those times ; and to submit to them in all those Points of Doctrine . Therefore we desire not to be Judges in our own Cause . And if any whom A. C. calls a Novellist , can truly say , and maintain this , he will quickly prove himself no Novellist . And for the Negative Articles , they refute , where the thing affirmed by you , is either not affirmed in Scripture , or not directly to be concluded out of it . Upon this Negative ground A. C. infers again , That the Baptism of Infants is not expresly A. C. p. 4. ( at least not evidently ) affirmed in Scripture , nor directly ( at least not demonstratively ) concluded out of it . In which case he professes he would gladly know , what can be answered to defend this doctrine to be a Point of Faith necessary for the salvation of Infants . And in Conclusion , professes , he cannot easily guess what answer can be made , unless we will acknowledge Authority of Church-Tradition necessary in this Case .

Num. 3 And truly since A. C. is so desirous of an Answer , I will give it freely . And first in the General . I am no way satisfied with A. C. his Addition ( not expresly , at least not evidently ) what means he ? If he speak of the Letter of the Scripture , then , whatsoever is expresly , is evidently in the Scripture , and so his Addition is vain . If he speak of the Meaning of the Scripture , then his Addition is cunning . For many things are Expresly in Scripture , which yet in their Meaning are not evidently there . And what e're he mean , my words are , That our Negative Articles refute that which is not affirmed in Scripture , without any Addition of Expresly , or Evidently . And he should have taken my words , as I used them . I lke nor Change , nor Addition , nor am I bound to either of A. C's making . And I am as little satisfied with his next Addition ( nor directly , at least not demonstratively concluded out of it . ) For are there not many things in Good Logick concluded , directly , which yet are not concluded Demonstratively ? Surely there are . For to be directly or indirectly concluded , flows from the Mood or Form of the Syllogism : To be demonstratively concluded , flows from the Matter or Nature of the Propositions . If the Propositions be Prime and necessary Truths , the Syllogism is demonstrative and scientifical , because the Propositions are such . If the Propositions be probable only , though the Syllogism be made in the clearest Mood , yet is the Conclusion no more . The Inference , or Consequence indeed is clear and necessary , but the Consequent is but probable , or topical , as the Propositions were . Now my words were only for a Direct Conclusion , and no more : though in this case I might give A. C. his Caution . For Scripture here is the thing spoken of . And Scripture being a Principle , and every Text of Scripture confessedly a Principle among all Christians , whereof no man * * Habitus enim Fidei it● se habet in in or●ine ad Theologiam , sicut se habet Habitus intellectus ad Scientias humanas . M. Canus . L. 2. de Loc. c. 8. desires any farther proof : I would fain know , why that which is plainly and apparently , that is , by direct Consequence , proved out of Scripture , is not Demonstratively or Scientifically proved ? If at least he think there can be any Demonstration in Divinity : and if there can be none , why did he add Demonstratively ?

Num. 4 Next in particular ; I answer to the Instance which A. C. A. C. p. 49. makes , concerning the Baptism of Infants , That it may be concluded directly ( and let A. C. judge , whether not demonstratively ) out of Scripture , both that Infants ought to be baptized , and that Baptism is necessary to their Salvation . And first , that Baptism is necessary to the Salvation of Infants ( in the ordinary way of the Church , without binding God to the use and means of that Sacrament , to which he hath bound us ) † † S. Aug. expresly of the Baptism of Infants . L. 1. de Peccato . Mer. & Remiss . c. 30 Et L. 2. c. 27. Et L. 3. de Animà & ejus Origine . c. 13. Nay they of the Romane Party which : urge the Baptism of Infants , as a matter of Faith , and yet not to be concluded out of Scripture ; when they are not in eager pursuit of this Controversie , but look upon truth with a more indifferent eye , consess as much ( even the Leaundist of them ) as we ask . Advertendum autem Salvatorem dum dicit [ Nisi quis renatus , &c. ] necessitatem imponere omnibus , ac proinde Parvulos debire renasci ex aquâ & Spiritu . Jansen . Harm. in Evang. c. 20. So hereis Baptism Necessary for Infants , and that Necessity imposed by our Saviour , and not by the Church only . Haeretici nulld alio quàm hoc Scripturae testimonio probare pollunt , Infantes esse baptizandos . Mald. in S. ] oh. 3. 5. So Maldonat confesses that the Hereticks ( we know whom he means ) can prove the Baptism of Infants by no Testimony of Scripture but this : which speech implies . That by this Testimony of Scripture it is , and can be proved , and therefore not by Church-Tradition only . And I would fain know , why Bellarmine , L. 1. de Baptism . cap. 8. §. 5. should bring three Arguments out of Scripture to prove the Baptism of Infants [ Habemus in Scripturie tria Argumenta , &c. ] if Baptism cannot be proved at all out of Scripture , but only by the Tradition of the Church And yet , this is not Bellarmine's way alone , but Suarez's in Tho. p. 3. q. 68. Disput. 25. Sect. 1. §. 2. Ex Scripturá possant varia Argumenta sumi ad confirmandum Paedobaptismum . Et similitèr , &c. And Greg. de Valentià , L. de Baptis . Far●ulorum , c. 2. §. 1. And the Pope himself , Innocent . 3. L. 3. Decretal . Tit. 42. Cap. Majores . And they all jump with S. Am●● L. 10. Epist. 84. 〈◊〉 Demetriadem Virginem , who expresly affirms it , Paedobaptismum esse Constitutionem Salvatoris . And proves it out of S. Joh. 3. 5. is express in S. John 3. Except a man be born again of water , and the Spirit , he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God . So , no Baptism , no Entrance . Nor can Infants creep in any other ordinary way . And this is the received Opinion of all the Ancient Church of * * Infantes reos esse Originalis peccati , & ideo baptizandos esse , Antiquam Fidei Regula● vocat . S. Aug. Ser 8. de verb. Apost. c. 8. Et nemo vobis susurret doctrinas alienas , hoc Ecclesia semper babuit , semper tenuit , hoc à majorum sid● recepit , &c. S. Aug. Serm. 10. de verb ▪ Apost. c. 2. & . S. Ambros. E. 10. Ep ▪ 84. circa medium . Et S. Chrysost. Hom. de Adam & Eva. Hoc praedicat Ecclesia Catholica ubique diffusa . Christ . And secondly , That Infants ought to be baptized , is first plain by Evident and Direct Consequence out of Scripture . For if there be no Salvation for Infants in the ordinary way of the Church , but by Baptism , and this appear in Scripture , as it doth ; then out of all Doubt , the Consequence is most evident out of that Scripture , That Infants are to be baptized , that their Salvation may be certain . For they which cannot † † Egi causam eorum qui pro se loqui non possunt , &c. S. Aug. Serm. 8. de verb. Apost. c. 8. help themselves , must not be left only to Extraordinary Helps , of which we have no assurance , and for which we have no warrant at all in Scripture , while we in the mean time neglect the ordinary way and means commanded by Christ , Secondly , 't is very near an Expression in Scripture it self . For when * * Act ▪ 2. 38 , 39. S. Peter had ended that great Sermon of his , Act. 2. he applies two comforts unto them , Verse 38. Amend your lives , and be baptized , and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost . And then , Verse 39. he infers , For the promise is made to you , and to your children . The Promise ; What Promise ? What ? Why the Promise of Sanctification by the Holy Ghost . By what means ? Why , by Baptism . For 't is expresly , Be baptized , and ye shall receive . And as expresly , This promise is made to you , and to your Children . And therefore A. C. may finde it , if he will , That the Baptism of Infants may be directly concluded out of Scripture . For some of his own Party , * * Nullum excipit , non Judeum , non Gentilem , non Adultum , non Puerum , &c. Ferus in Act. 2. 39. Ferus and † † Et ad Filios vestros : quare debent consentire , quum ad usum rationis perveniunt , ad implenda promissa in Baptismo , &c. Salm. Tract. 14. upon the place . Salmeron , could both find it there . And so ( if it will do him any pleasure ) he hath my Answer , which he saith , he would be glad to know .

Num. 5 'T is true , * * Bellar. L. 4. de Verbo Dei . c. 9. §. 5. Bellarmine presses a main place out of S. Augustine , and he urges it hard . S. † † S. Aug. Gen. ad Lit. c. 23. Consuetudo Matris Ecclesiae in Baptizandis parvulis nequaquam spernenda est , nec omnind credenda , nisi Apostolica esset Traditio . Augustine's words are , The Custom of our Mother the Church in Baptizing Infants , is by no means to be contemned , or thought superfluous , nor yet at all to be believed , unless it were an Apostol●cal Tradition . The place is truly cited , but seems a great deal stronger , than indeed it is . For first , 't is not denied , That this is an Apostolical Tradition , and therefore to be believed . But secondly , not therefore only . Nor doth S. Augustine say so , nor doth Bellarmine press it that way . The truth is , it would have been somewhat difficult to find the Collection out of Scripture only for the Baptism of Infants , since they do not actually believe . And therefore S. Augustine is at nec credenda nisi , that this Custom of the Church had not been to be believed , had it not been an Apostolical Tradition . But the Tradition being Apostolical , led on the Church easily to see the necessary Deduction out of Scripture . And this is not the least use of Tradition , to lead the Church into the true meaning of those things which are found in Scripture , though not obvious to every eye there . And that this is S. Augustine's meaning , is manifest by himself , who best knew it . For when he had said , * * Cur Antiquam fidei Regulam frangere conaris ? S. Aug. Ser. 8. de ver. Apost. c. 8. Hoc Ecclesia semper tenuit . Ib. Ser. 10. c. 2. as he doth , That to baptize children , is Antiqua fidei Regula , the Ancient Rule of Faith , and the constant Tenet of the Church , yet he doubts not to collect and deduce it out of Scripture also . For when Pelagius urged , That Infants needed not to be baptized , because they had no Original Sin : S. Augustine relies not upon the Tenet of the Church only , but argues from the Text thus . † † Quid necessarium babuit Infans Christum , si non aegrotat ? S. Matth. 9. 12. Quid est quod dicis , nist ut non accedant ad Jesum ? Sed tibi clamat Jesus , Sine Parvulos venire ad me . S. Aug. in the fore cited places . What need have Infants of Christ , if they be not sick ? For the sound need not the Physitian , S. Mat. 9. And again , is not this said by Pelagins , ut non accedaent ad Jesum ? That Infants may not come to their Saviour ? Sed clamat Jesus , but Jesus cries out , Suffer Little ones to come unto me , * * S. Marc. 10. 14. S. Mar. 10. And all this is fully acknowledged by † † Nullus est Scriptor tam vetustus , qui non ejus Originem ad Apostolorum seculum pro certe referat . Calv. 4. Iust. c. 16. §. 8. Calvine , Namely , That all men acknowledge the Baptism of Infants to descend from Apostolical Tradition . ‖ ‖ Miserrimum asylum soret , si pro Defensione Paedobaptismi ad nudam Ecclisia authoritatem fugere cogeremur . Cal. 4. Inst. c. 8. §. 16. And yet that it doth not depend upon the bare and naked Authority of the Church . Which he speaks not in regard of Tradition , but in relation to such proof , as is to be made by necessary Consequence out of Scripture over and above Tradition .

As for Tradition , * * §. 15. Num. 1. A. C. p. 49. I have said enough for that , and as much NUM. 6. ● as A. C. where 't is truly Apostolical . And yet if any thing will please him , I will add this concerning this particular , The Baptizing of Infants ; That the Church received this by † † Orig. i● Rom. 6. 8. 〈◊〉 . 2. p. 543. Pro hoc Ecclesia ab Apostolis Traditionem s●scepit , etiam parvulis Baptis ▪ mum dare . Et S. Aug. Ser. 10. de verb. Apost. c. 2. Hoc Ecclesia à Majorum fide percepit . And it is to be observed , that neither of these Fathers ( nor I believe any other ) say that the Church received it à Traditione solâ , or à Majorum fide solâ : as if Tradition did exclude collection of it out of Scripture . Tradition from the Apostles . By Tradition . And what then ? May it not directly be concluded out of Scripture , because it was delivered to the Church by way of Tradition ? I hope A. C. will never say so . For certainly in Doctrinal things , nothing so likely to be a Tradition Apostolical , as that which hath a ‖ ‖ Yea , and B. slarmine himself avers , Onnes Traditiones , &c. contineri in Scripturis in universall . Lib. 4. de verb. Dei non scripto . c. 10. §. Sic etiam . And S. Basil. Serm. de fide approves only those Agrapha , quae non sunt aliena à piâ secundum Scripturam Sententiâ . root and a Foundation in Scripture . For Apostles cannot write , or deliver contrary , but subordinate , and subservient things .

I asked how he knew Scripture to be Scripture , and in particular , Genesis , Exodus , &c. These are balieved to be Scripture , yet not proved out of any Place of Scripture . The Bishop said , That the Books of Scripture are Principles to be supposed , and needed not to be proved .

§ . 16 Num. 1 I did never love too curious a search into that which might put a man into a wheel , and circle him so long between proving Scripture by Tradition , and Tradition by Scripture , till the Devil find a means to dispute him into Infidelity , and make him believe neither . I hope this is no part of your meaning . Yet I doubt this * * Qui conantur fidem destruere sub specie Quaestionis difficible , aut sortè indissolubilis , &c. Orig. Q. 35. in . S. Matth. Question , How do you know Scripture to be Scripture ? hath done more harm , than you will be ever able to help by Tradition . But I must follow that way which you draw me . And because it is so much insisted upon by you , and is in it self a * * To know that Scriptures are Divine , and insallible in every part , is a Foundation so necessary , as if it be doubtfully question'd , all the Faith built upon Scripture falls to the ground . A. C. p. 47. Necesse est nosse ext are libros aliquos verè Divinos . Bellatm . L. 4. de verb. Dei non scripto . c. 4. §. Quartò necesse . Et etiam libros qui sunt in manibus esse illos . ibid. §. Sextò oportet . matter of such Consequence , I will sift it a little farther .

Num. 2 Many men labouring to settle this great Principle in Divinity , have used divers means to prove it . All have not gone the same way , nor all the right way . You cannot be right , that resolve Faith of the Scriptures being the Word of God , into only Tradition . For only , and no other proof , are equal . To prove the Scripture therefore ( so called by way of Excellence ) to be the Word of God , there are several Offers at divers proofs . For first , some fly to the Testimony and witness of the Church , and ( 1. ) her Tradition , which constantly believes , and unanimously delivers it . Secondly , some to the Light and the Testimony which ( 2. ) the Scripture gives to it self ; with other internal proofs which are observed in it , and to be found in no other Writing whatsoever . Thirdly , some to the Testimony of the Holy Ghost , ( 3. ) which clears up the light that is in Scripture , and seals this Faith to the Souls of men , that it is Gods Word . Fourthly , all that ( 4. ) have not imbrutished themselves , and sunk below their species , and order of Nature , give even Natural Reason leave to come in , and make some proof , and give some approbation upon the weighing , and the consideration of other Arguments . And this must be admitted , if it be but for Pagans and Insidels , who either consider not , or value not any one of the other three : yet must some way or other be converted , or left without excuse , Rom. 1. 20. Rom. 1. and that is done by this very evidence .

Num. 3 1. For the first : The Tradition of the Church , which is your way : That taken and considered alone , it is so far from being the only , that it cannot be a sufficient Proof to believe by Divine Faith , that Scripture is the Word of God . For that which is a full and sufficient proof , is able of it self to settle the Soul of man concerning it . Now the Tradition of the Church is not able to do this For it may be further asked , Why we should believe the Churches Tradition ? And if it be answered , We may believe , Because the Church is infallibly governed by the Holy Ghost ; it may yet be demanded of you , How that may appear ? And if this be demanded , either you must say , you have it by special Revelation , which is the private Spirit you object to other men , or else you must attempt to prove it by Scripture * * Esse aliquas veras Traditiones demonstratur ex Scripturis . Bellar. L. 4. de verbe Dei non scripto . c. 5. and A. C. p. 50. proves Tradition out of 2 Thes. 2. , as all of you do . And that very offer , to prove it out of Scripture , is a sufcient acknowledgment , that the Scripture is a higher Proof , than the Churches Tradition , which ( in your Grounds ) is , or may be Questionable , till you come thither . Besides , this is an Inviolable ground of Reason : * * Arist. 1. Post. ● . 2. T. 16. Per Pacium . Quòcirca si 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , propter prima scimus & credimus , illa quoque scimus & credimus 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 magis , quia per illa scimus , & credimus etiam posteriora . That the Principles of any Conclusion must be of more credit , than the Conclusion it self . Therefore if the Articles of Faith , The Trinity , the Resurrection , and the rest , be the Conclusions , and the Principles by which they are proved , be only Ecclesiastical Tradition , it must needs follow , That the Tradition of the Church is more infallible than the Articles of the Faith , if the Faith which we have of the Articles should be finally Resolved into the Veracity of the Churches Testimony . But this † † Eorum errorem dissimulare non possum , qui asserunt fidem Nostram , 〈◊〉 tanquàm in ultimam credendi causam reducendam esse . Ut Credamus Ecclesiam esse Veracem , &c. M. Canus . L. 2. de Locis . c. 8. §. Cui , & tertium . your Learned and wary men deny . And therefore I hope your self dare not affirm .

Num. 4 Again , if the Voyce of the Church ( saying the Books of Scripture commonly received , are the Word of God ) be the formal Object of Faith , upon which alone absolutely I may resolve my self ; then every man not only may , but ought to resolve his Faith into the Voyce or Tradition of the Church : for every man is bound to rest upon the proper and formal Object of the Faith . But nothing can be more evident than this , That a man ought not to resolve his Faith of this Principle into the sole Testimony of the Church . Therefore neither is that Testimony , or Tradition alone , the formal Object of Faith . * * Vox Ecclesiae non est Formale Objectum Fidei . Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 3. A. 2. Licet in Articulo Fid●● [ Credo Ecclesiam ] fortè contineatur hoc totum , Credo ea , quae docet Ecclesia : tamen non intelligitur necessario , quòd Credo docenti Ecclesiae tanquam Teste infallabili . ibid. tibi etiam rejicit Opinionem . Durandl & Gabr. Et Waldens . L. 2. Doctr. Fidei Art. 2. c. 21. Num. 4. Testimonium Ecclesiae Catholicae est Objectum Fidei Christianae , & Legistatio Scripturae Canonicae , subjicitur tamen ipsi , sicut Testis Judici , & Testimonium Veritati , &c. Canus Loc. Lib. 2. cap. 8. Nec si Ecclesia aditum nobis praebet ad hujusmodi Libros Sacros cognoscendos , protinus ibi acquiescendum est , sed ultr● oportet progredi , & Solida Dei veritate niti , &c. The Learned of your own part grant this : Although in that Article of the Creed ( I believe the Catholike Church ) peradventure all this be contained [ I believe those things which the Church teacheth ] yet this is not necessarily understood , That I believe the Church teaching , as an Infallible Witness . And if they did not confess this , it were no hard thing to prove .

Num. 5 But here 's the cunning of this Devise . All the Authorities of Fathers , Councels , nay of Scripture too , * * Omnis ergo Ecclesiastica Authoritas , ●●m sit ad Testificandum de Christo , & Legibus ejus : vilior est Christi legibus , & Scripturis Sanctis necessariò postponenda . Wald. ● . ▪ 2. Doct. Fidei Art. 2. cap. 21. Numb. 1. ( though this be contrary to their own Doctrine ) must be finally Resolved into the Authority of the present Roman Church . And though they would seem to have us believe the Fathers , and the Church of old , yet they will not have us take their Doctrine from their own Writings , or the Decrees of Councels : because ( as they say ) we cannot know by reading them , what their meaning was , but from the Infallible Testimony of the present Roman Church reaching by Tradition . Now by this , two things are evident . First , That they ascribe as great Authority ( if not greater ) to a part of the Catholike Church , as they do to the whole , which we believe in our Creed ; and which is the Society of all Christians . And this is full of Absurdity in Nature , in Reason , in All things , that any * * Totum est majus suâ parte . Etiamsi Axioma sit apud Euclydem , non tamen id●ò Geometricum putandum est , quia Geometres eo utitur . Utitur enim & tota Logica . Ram. in Schol. Matth. And Aristotle vindicates such Propositions 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , From being usurped by Particular Sciences : 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. Quia conveniunt omni ●ati , & non alicui Generi separatim . 4. Metaph. c. 3. T. 7. Part should be of equal worth , power , credit , or authority with the Whole . Secondly , that in their Doctrine concerning the Infallibility of their Church , their proceeding is most unreasonable . For if you ask them , Why they believe their whole Doctrine to be the sole true Catholike Faith ? Their Answer is , Because it is agreeable to the Word of God , and the Doctrine and Tradition of the Ancient Church . If you ask them , How they know that to be so ? They will then produce Testimonies of Scripture , Councels , and Fathers . But if you ask a third time , By what means they are assured , that these Testimonies do indeed make for them , and their Cause ? They will not then have recourse to Text of Scripture , or Exposition of Fathers , or Phrase and propriety of Languag● , in which either of them were first written , or to the scope of the Author , or the * * Intelligentia dictorum ex causis est assumenda dicendi , quia non Sermoni res , sed Rei Sermo est subjectus . S. Hilar. 1. 4. de Trin. Ex materiâ dicti ▪ di rigendus est sensus . Tert. l. de Resur . carnis , c. 37. Causes of the thing uttered , or the Conference with like † † Videndo differentias Similium ad Similia . Orig. Tract. 19. in S. Matth. Places , or the Antecedents ‖ ‖ Recolendum est unde venerit ista Sententia , & quae illam superiora pe●ererint , quibúsque connexa dependeat . S. Aug. Ep. 29. Soiet circumstantia Scripturae illuminare Sententiam . S. Aug. L. 83. Quaest. q. 69. and Consequents of the same Places : * * Quae ambiguè & obscurè in nonnullis Scripturae Sacrae locis dicta videntur , per ea quae alibi certa , & indubitata habentur declarantur . S. Basil. in Regulis contractis , Reg. 267. Manifestiora quaeque praevaleant , & de incertis certiora praescribant . Tert. L de Resur . c. 19 & 21. S. Aug. L. 3. De Doct. Christ . c. 26. Moris est Scripturarum obscuris Manifesta subnectere , & quod prius sub aeuigmatibus dixerint , apert●● voce proferre . S Hieron . in Esa. 19. princ . Vid. §. 26. Nu. 4. or the Exposition of the dark and doubtful Places of Scripture by the undoubted and manifest . With divers other Rules given for the true knowledge and understanding of Scripture , which do frequently occur in † † S. Aug. L. 3. de Doctr. Christianâ . S. Augustine . No , none of these , or the like helps : That , with them , were to admit a Private Spirit , or to make way for it . But their final Answer is , They know it to be so , because the present Roman Church witnesseth it , according to Tradition . So arguing , ● primo ad ultimum , from first to last ; the Present Church of Rome and her Followers believe her own Doctrine and Tradition to be true and Catholike , because she professes it to be such . And if this be not to prove idem per idem , the same by the same , I know not what is : which , though it be most absurd in all kind of Learning , yet out of this I see not how 't is possible to winde themselves , so long as the last resolution of their Faith must rest ( as they teach ) upon the Tradition of the present Church only . Num. 6 It seems therefore to me very necessary , * * And this is so necessary , that Bellarmine confes●es , that if Tradition ( which he rel●es upon ) be not Divine : He and his can have no Faith . Non habemus fidem . Fides 〈…〉 verbo Dei nititur . L. 4. de verbo Dei . c 4. §. At si ita est . And A. C. tells us , p. 47. To know that Scripture is Divine and Infallible in every part , is a Foundation so necessary , as if it be doubtfully questioned , all the Faith built upon Scripture falls to the ground . And he gives the same reason for it , p. 50. which Bellarmine doth . that we be able to prove the Books of Scripture to be the Word of God , by some Authority that is absolutely Divine . For if they be warranted unto us by any Authority less than Divine , then all things contained in them ( which have no greater assurance than the Scripture , in which they are read ) are not Objects of Divine belief . And that once granted , will enforce us to yield , That all the Articles of Christian Belief have no greater assurance than Humane , or Moral Faith , or Credulity can afford . An Authority then simply Divine must make good the Scriptures Infallibility , at least in the last Resolution of our Faith in that Point . This Authority cannot be any Testimony , or Voice of the * * Ecclesiaem spiritu a●flatam esse , certè credo . Non ut veritatem , authoritatemve Libris Canonicis tribuat , sed ut doceat illos , 〈◊〉 alios esse Canonicos . Nec si aditum nobis praebet ad hujusmodi sacros Libros cognoscendos , protinus ibi acquiescendum est , sed ultra oportet progredi , & solid● Dei veritate ●iti . Qu● ex re intelligitur quid sibi voluerit Augustinus , quum ait , Evangelio non creder●m , nisi , &c M. Canus L. 2. de Lacis , c. 8. fol. 3a . b. Non docet fun●●tam esse Evangilii fidem in Ecclesiae Authoritate , sed , &c. Ibid. Church alone . For the Church consists of men subject to Error ; And no one of them , since the Apostles times , hath been assisted with so plentiful a measure of the Blessed Spirit , as to secure him from being deceived ; And all the Parts , being all liable to mistaking , and fallible , the Whole cannot possibly be Infallible , in , and of it self , and priviledged from being deceived in some Things , or other . And even in those Fundamental Things , in which the Whole Universal Church neither doth , nor can Erre ; yet even there her Authority is not Divine , because She delivers those supernatural Truths by Promise of Assistance , yet tyed to Means : And not by any special immediate Revelation , which is necessarily required to the very least Degree of Divine Authority . And therefore our † † Hook. l. 3. §. 9. Worthies do not only say , but prove ▪ That all the Churches Constitutions are of the nature of Humane Law . * * Stapl. Relect. Co● . 4. q. 3. A. 1 & 2. And some among you , not unworthy for their Learning , prove it at large , That all the Churches Testimony , or Voyce , or Sentence ( call it what you will ) is but suo modo , or aliquo modo , not simply , but in a manner Divine . Yea , and A. C. A. C. p. 51. himself , after all his debate comes to that , and no further , That the Tradition of the Church is , at least in some sort , Divine and Infallible . Now that which is Divine but in a sort or manner , be it the Churches manner , is aliquo modo non Divina , in a sort not Divine . But this Great Principle of Faith ( the Ground and Proof of whatsoever else is of Faith ) cannot stand firm upon a Proof that is , and is not ; in a manner , and not in a manner Divine ; As it must , if we have no other Anchor than the External Tradition of the Church to lodge it upon , and hold it steddy in the midst of those waves , which daily beat upon it .

Num. 7 Now here A. C. confesses expresly , That to prove the Books of Scripture to be Divine , we must be warranted by that which A. C. p. 49. is Infallible . He confesses farther , that there can be no sufficient A. C. p. 50. Infallible Proof of this , but Gods Word , written , or unwritten . And he gives his Reason for it : Because if the Proof be meerly A. C. p. 51. Humane , and Fallible , the Science or Faith which is built upon it , can be no better . So then this is agreed on by me , ( yet leaving other men to travel by their own way , so be they can come to make Scripture thereby Infallible ) That Scripture must be known to be Scripture by a sufficient , Infallible , Divine Proof . And that such Proof can be nothing but the Word of God , is agreed on also by me . Yea , and agreed on for me it shall be likewise , that Gods Word may be written and unwritten . For Cardinal * * Verbum Dei non est tale , nec habet ullam Authoritatem , quia scriptum est in membr●ni● , sed quia à Deo profectum est . Bellar. l. 4. de Verb. Dei . c. 2. §. Ecclesiasticae Traditiones . Bellarmine tells us truly , that it is not the writing , or printing , that make Scripture the Word of God ; but it is the Prime Unerring Essential Truth , God himself , uttering , and revealing it to his Church , that makes it Verbum Dei , the Word of God . And this Word of God is uttered to men , either immediately by God himself , Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , and so 't was to the Prophets and Apostles : Or mediately , either by Angels , to whom God had spoken first , and so the Law was given , * * Lex ordinata per Angelos in man● Mediatoris , Gal. 3. 19. Gal. 3. and so also the Message was delivered to the Blessed Virgin , † † S. Luk. 1. 30. S. Luke 1. or by the Prophets ‖ ‖ The Holy Ghost , &c. which spake by the Prophets , in Symb. Nicen. and Apostles , and so the Scriptures were delivered to the Church . But their being written , gave them no Authority at all , in regard of themselves . Written or Unwritten , the Word was the same . But it was written , that it might be the better * * Nam Pseudoprophetae etiam viventibus adhuc Apostolis , multas fingebant corruptelas sub hoc praetextu & titulo , quasi ab Apostolis vivâ voce essent traditae : & propter hanc ipsam causam Apostoli Doctrinam suam coeperunt Literis comprehendere , & Ecclesiit commendare . Chem. Exam. Concil. Third . de Traditionibus sub octavo genere Tradit . And so also Jausen . Comment. in S. Joh. 5. 47. Sicut enim firmius est quod mandatur Literis , ita est culpabilius & majus non credere Scriptis , quam non credere Verbis . preserved , and continued with the more integrity to the use of the Church , and the more faithfully in our † † Labilis est memoria , & ideo indigemus Scripturâ : Dicendum quod verum est , sed hoc non habet , nisi ex inundantia peccatorum . Henr. a Gand. Sum. p. 1. Ar. 8. q. 4. fine . Christus ipse de pectore morit●ro Testamentum transfert in tabulas di● duraturas . Optat. L. 5. Christus ipse non transtulis , sed ex Optati sententià , Ejus Inspiratione , si non Jussu , Apostoli transtulerunt . Memories . And you have been often enough told ( were truth , and not the maintaining of a party , the thing you seek for ) that if you will shew us any such unwritten word of God delivered by his Prophets and Apostles , we will acknowledge it to be Divine and Infallible . So , written , or unwritten , that shall not stumble us . But then A. C. must not tell us , at least not think we shall swallow it into our Belief , That every thing which he says is the unwritten Word of God , is so indeed .

Num. 8 I know Bellarmine hath written a whole Book * * Bellar. L. 4. de Verbo Dei non sc●ipt . De verbo Dei non scripto , of the Word of God not written ; in which he handles the Controversie concerning Traditions . And the Cunning is , to make his weaker Readers believe , that all that , which He , and his are pleased to call Traditions , are by and by no less to be received , and honoured , than the unwritten Word of God ought to be . Whereas 't is a thing of easie knowledge , That the unwritten Word of God and Tradition , are not Convertible Terms , that is , are not all one . For there are many Unwritten Words of God , which were never delivered over to the Church , for ought appears : And there are many Traditions ( affirmed , at least to be such by the Church of Rome ) which were never warranted by any Unwritten Word of God .

Num. 9 First , That there are many Unwritten Words of God which were never delivered over to the Church , is manifest . For when , or where were the words , which Christ spake to his Apostles , during the * * Act. 1. 3. forty days of his Conversing with them after his Resurrection , first delivered over to the Church ? or what were the Unwritten Words he then spake ? If neither He , nor His Apostles , or Evangelists have delivered them to the Church , the Church ought not to deliver them to her Children . Or if she do * * Annunciare aliquid Christianis Catholici● ▪ pra●er id quod acceperunt , nunquam licuit , nusquam licet , nunquam lic●bit . Vincent . Lit. c. 14. Et pr●cipit nihil aliud in●●vari , nisi quod traditum est , S , Cypri . ad Pompelum c●nt . Epist. Stephan . princ . tradere non traditions , make a Tradition of that , which was not delivered to her , and by some of Them ; then She is unfaithful to God , and doth not servare depositum , faithfully keep that which is committed to her Trust. † † 1 Tim. 6. 20 and 2 Tim. 1. 14. 1 Tim. 6. And her Sons , which come to know it , are not bound to obey her Tradition against the ‖ ‖ Si ipsa ( Ecclesia ) contraria Scripturae diceret ( Fidelis ) ipsi non crederet , &c. He● ▪ ● Gand. S●● . p. 1. A. 10. q. 1. And Bellarmine himself ▪ that he might the more safely defend himself in the Cause of Traditions , says , ( but how truly let other men judge ) Nullam Traditionem admittimu● contr● Scripturam . L. 4. de Verb● Dei . cap. 3. ● . Deinde commune . Word of their Father . For wheresoever Christ holds his peace , or that his words are not Registred , I am of S. * * S. Aug. Tom. 96. in S. Joh. in illa Verba , Multa ●abeo dicere , sed non potestis portare modd . Augustines Opinion , No man may dare without rashness say they were these , or these . So , there were many Unwritten Words of God , which were never delivered over to the Church ; and therefore never made Tradition . And there are many Traditions , which cannot be said to be the Unwritten Word of God . For I believe , a Learned Romanist , that will weigh before he speaks , will not easily say , That to Anoint , or use Spittle in Baptism : or to use three Dippings in the use of that Sacrament : or divers other like Traditions , had their Rise from any Word of God unwritten : Or if he be so hardy as to say so , 't is gratis dictum , and he will have enough to do to prove it . So , there may be an Unwritten Word of God , which is no Tradition . And there are many Traditions , which are no Unwritten Word of God . Therefore Tradition must be taken two ways . Either , as it is the Churches Act delivering , or the Thing thereby delivered ; and then 't is Humane Authority , or from it , and unable infallibly to warrant Divine Faith , or to be the Object of it . Or else as it is the Unwritten Word of God : and then where ever it can be made to appear so , 't is of divine and infallible Authority , no Question . But then I would have A. C. consider where he is in this Particular . He tells us , We must know infallibly , that the Books of A. C. p. 49. Holy Scripture are Divine , and that this must be done by Unwritten Tradition , but so , as that this Tradition is the Word of God unwritten . Now let him but prove that this , or any Tradition , which the Church of Rome stands upon , is the Word of God , though unwritten , and the business is ended . But A. C. A. C. p. 50. must not think , that because the Tradition of the Church tells me these Books are Verbum Dei , Gods Word ; and that I do both honour and believe this Tradition ; That therefore this Tradition it self is Gods Word too ; and so absolutely sufficient and infallible to work this Belief in me . Therefore for ought A. C. hath yet added , we must on with our Inquiry after this great Business , and most necessary Truth .

Num. 10 2. For the second way of proving , That Scripture should be fully and sufficiently known , as by Divine and Infallible Testimony , Lumine proprio , by the resplendencie of that Light , which it hath in it self only , and by the witness that it can so give to it self , I could never yet see cause to allow . * * Hook. l. 2. §. 4. For as there is no place in Scripture that tells us , Such Books containing such and such Particulars are the Canon , and Infallible Will and Word of God : So if there were any such place , that were no sufficient proof ; For a man may justly ask another Book to bear witness of that ; and again of that another ; and where ever it were written in Scripture , that must be a part of the Whole . And no created thing can alone give witness to it self , and make it evident , nor one part testifie for another , and satisfie where Reason will but offer to contest . Except those Principles only of Natural knowledge , which appear manifest by intuitive light of understanding , without any Discourse . And yet they also to the weaker sort require Induction preceding . Now this Inbred light of Scripture is a thing coincident with Scripture it self : and so , the Principles , and the Conclusion in this kind of proof should be entirely the same , which cannot be . Besides , if this inward Light were so clear , how could there have been any variety among the Ancient Believers touching the Authority of S. * * Euseb. L. 2. c. 27. fi●e . Edit. Basil. 1549. James , and S. Jude's Epistles , and the † † Euseb L. 3 c. 25. Apocalyps , with other Books which were not received for divers years after the rest of the New Testament ? For certainly , the Light which is in the Scripture , was the same then , which now it is . And how could the Gospel of S. Bartholomew , of S. Thomas , and other counterfeit pieces , obtain so much credit with some , as to be received into the Canon , if the evidence of this Light were either Universal , or Infallible , of , and by it self ? And this , though I cannot approve , yet methinks , you may , and upon probable grounds at least . For I hope no † † Except A. C. whose boldness herein I cannot but pity . For he denies this light to the Scripture , and gives it to Tradition ▪ His words are , p. 52. Tradition of the Church is of a company , which by its own light shews it self to be infallibly assisted , &c. Romanist will deny , but that there is as much light in Scripture to manifest , and make ostension of it self to be infallibly the written Word of God , as there is in any Tradition of the Church , that it is Divine , and infallibly the Unwritten Word of God . And the Scriptures saying from the mouths of the Prophets , * * Isa. 44. & passim . Thus saith the Lord , and from the mouths of the † Apostles , that the Holy Ghost spake by them , are at least as able , * Act. 28. 25. and as fit to bear witness to their own Verity ; as the Church is to bear witness to her own Traditions , by bare saying they come from the Apostles . And your selves would never go to the Scripture , to prove that there are Traditions , ‖ ‖ 2 Thess. 2. 15. Jude , vers . ● . as you do , if you did not think the Scripture as easie to be discovered by inbred light in it self , as Traditions by their light . And if this be so , then it is as probable at the least ( which some of ours affirm ) That Scripture may be known to be the Word of God , by the Light and Lustre which it hath in it self , as it is ( which you * * In your Articles delivered to D. W. to be answered . And A. C. p. 52. affirm ) That a Tradition may be known to be such , by the light which it hath in it self : which is an excellent Proposition to make sport withal , were this an Argument to be handled merrily .

Num. 11 3. For the third Opinion , and way of proving ; either some think , that there is no sufficient warrant for this , unless they fetch it from the Testimony of the Holy Ghost , and so look in vain after special Revelations , and make themselves by this very Conceit , obnoxious , and easie to be led by all the whisperings of a seducing private spirit ; or else you would fain have them think so . For your side , both upon this , and other Occasions , do often challenge , That we resolve all our Faith into the Dictates of a * * A Jesuite , under the name of T. S. set out a Book , An. 1630. which he called , The Trial of the Protestant private Spirit . private Spirit ; from which we shall ever prove our selves as free , if not freer than you . To the Question in hand then : Suppose it agreed upon , that there must be a † † Ut Testimonia Scripturae certam & indubitatam fidem pr●stent , necessarium videtur ostendere , quod ips● Divin● Scripturae sint Dei Spiritu inspirata . Orig. 4. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Divine Faith , cui subesse non potest falsum , under which can rest no possible errour , That the Books of Scripture are the written Word of God : If they which go to the testimony of the Holy Ghost for proof of this , do mean by Faith , Objectum Fidei , the Object of Faith that is to be believed , then , no question , they are out of the ordinary way . For God never sent us by any word or warrant of his , to look for any such special , and private Testimony to prove which that Book is , that we must believe . But if by Faith they mean , the Habit ; or Act of Divine infused Faith , by which vertue they do believe the Credible Object , and thing to be believed ; then their speech is true , and confessed by all Divines of all sorts . For Faith is the gift * * 1 Cor. 1. 2. 3 4. Datur nobis à Deo , &c. S. Aug. in Psal. 87. of God , of God alone , and an infused † † Quia homo assentiendo eis quae sunt fidei , elevatur supra Naturam suam , oportet quòd hoc insit ei ex supernaturali principio interius movente , quod est Deus . Tho. 2. 2● . ● . 6. A. 1. c. And your own Divines agree in this , That Fides acquisit● is not sufficient for any Article , but there must be Fides i●●●sa , before there can be Divine Certainty . Fides acquisita in●ititur 〈◊〉 humanis . Ad quem modum & Saraceni suis Pr●ceptoribus ; & Jud●● suis Rabinis , & Gentes suis Philosophis , & omnes suis Majoribus inherent : non sic Christiani , sed per interi●s lumen infusum à Spirit● San●to , qu● firmissimè & certissimè moventur ad credendum , &c. Canus . L. 2. Locor . c. 8. §. Jam si haec . Habit , in respect whereof the Soul is meerly recipient ; And therefore the sole Infuser , the Holy Ghost must not be excluded from that work , which none can do , but He. For the Holy Ghost , as ‖ ‖ Symb. Nicen. The Holy Ghost spake by the Prophets , &c. Et 1 S. Pet. 2. 21. Quis modus est , quo doces animas ea quae f●tura sunt ? Docuist● enim Prophetas t●os . S. Aug. L. 11. Co●●ess . c. 19. He first dictated the Scripture to the Apostles : * * Nec enim Ecclesiae Testimonium , aut Judicium predi●amus , Dei Spiritum , vel ab Ecclesià docente , vel à nobis a●aientibus , excludimus , sed utrobique dis●rtè includimus , &c. Stapl. trip . contr. Whitak . c. 3. So did he not leave the Church in general , nor the true members of it in particular , without Grace to believe , what himself had revealed , and made Credible . So that Faith , as it is taken for the vertue of Faith , whether it be of this , or any other Article , † † Fides qué c●pit ab Ecclesiae Testimoni● , quatenus proponit & inducit ad Fidem , desinit in Deo intùs revelante , & intùs docente quod s●r●s Ecclesia pr●dicavit . Sapl . Relect. Cont. ● . q. 3. a. 2. When grave and learned men do sometimes hold , that of this Principle there is no proof , but by the Testimony of the Spirit , &c. I think it is not their meaning , to exclude all outward Proofs , &c. but rather this , That all other means are uneffectual of themselves to work Faith , without the special Grace of God . Hook . &c. Lib. 3. §. 8. though it receive a kind of preparation , or Occasion of Beginning from the Testimony of the Church , as it proposeth , and induceth to the Faith ; yet it ends in God , revealing within , and teaching within , that which the Church preached without . For till the Spirit of God move the Heart of man , he cannot believe , be the Object never so Credible . The speech is true then , but quite ‖ ‖ De habita Fidei quoad fieri ej●s , & generationem , quùm à Deo immediatè solo Do●o gratuito 〈◊〉 est , Nihil ad Qu●stionem , nisi quoad hoc quod per Scripturae inspectionem , &c. Henr. à Gand. Sum. ● . 10. q. 1. lit . D. out of the State of this Question : which inquires only after a sufficient means to make this Object Credible , and fit to be believed , against all impeachment of folly and temerity in Belief , whether men do actually believe it or not . For which no man may expect inward private Revelation , without the external means of the Church , unless perhaps the * * Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. Q. 3. A. 2. Doth not only affirm it , but proves it too , à paritate ratio●●s , in case of necessity , where there is no Contempt of the external means . case of Necessity be excepted , when a man lives in such a time and place as excludes him from all ordinary means ; in which I dare not offer to shut up God from the Souls of men , nor to tye him to those ordinary ways and means , to which yet in great wisdom and providence He hath tied and bound all mankind .

Num. 12 Private Revelation then hath nothing ordinarily to do , to make the Object Credible in this , That Scripture is the Word of God , or in any other Article . For the Question is of such outward , and evident means , as other men may take notice of , as well as our selves . By which if there arise any Doubting , or Infirmity in the Faith , others may strengthen us , or we afford means to support them : Whereas the * * Quid cum singulis agitur , Deus scit qui agit , & ipsi cum quibus agitur , sciunt . Quid autem agatur cum genere Humano , per Historiam commendari voluit , & per Prop●●tiam . S. Aug. de vera R●lig . c. 25. , Testimony of the Spirit , and all private Revelation is within , nor felt , nor seen of any , but him that hath it . So that hence can be drawn no proof to others . And Miracles are not sufficient alone to prove it , unless both They ▪ and the Revelation too , agree with the Rule of Scripture ▪ which is now an unalterable Rule by † † Gal. 1. 8. A. C. p. 52. man , or Angel . To all this A. C. says nothing , save that I seem not to admit of an Infallible Impulsion of a private Spirit , ex parte subjecti , without any infallible Reason , and that sufficiently applied ex parte objecti , which if I did admit , would open a gap to all Enthusiasms , and dreams of fanatical men . Now for this yet I thank him . For I do not only seem not to admit , but I do most clearly reject this phrensie in the words going before .

Num. 13 4. The last way , which gives * * Utitur tamen sacra Doctrina Ratione Humana , Non quidem ad proba●dum Fidem ipsam , sed ad manifestandum aliqua alia , qu● traduntut 〈◊〉 hac Doctrind . Tho. p. 1. q. ● . A. 8. ad 2. Passibus rationis novus bo●● tendit in Deum . S. Aug. de vera Relig. c. 26. ( Passibus , verum est , sed nec aequis , nec solis . ) Nam Invisibilia Dei altiori modo quantum ad plura percipit Fides , quàm Ratio natur●lis ●x Creaturis in Deum procede●s . Tho. 2. 2. q. 2. A. 3. ad 3. Reason leave to come in , and prove what it can , may not justly be denied by any reasonable man . For though Reason without Grace cannot see the way to Heaven , nor believe this Book , in which God hath written the way ; yet Grace is never placed but in a reasonable Creature , and proves by the very seat , which it hath taken up , that the end it hath , is to be spiritual eye-water , to make Reason see what by † † Animalis homo non percipit . 1 Cor. 2. 14. Nature only it cannot , but never to blemish Reason in that , which it can comprehend . Now the use of Reason is very general ; and man ( do what he can ) is still apt to search and seek for a Reason why he will believe , though after he once believes , his Faith grows ‖ ‖ Quia sci●ati● certitudinem habent ex naturali lu●ine Rationis human● , qu● potest er●are : Theologi● autem ( quae docet & Objectum & Notitiam Fidet , sicut & Fidem ipsam ) certitudinem habit ex lumine Divin● scientie , quae decipi non potest . Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 5. c. ut ipsa fide valentiores ●acti , quod credimus intelligere mereamur . S. Aug. cont. Ep. Ma●ichaej , dictam , Fundamentum . c. 14. Hoc autem ita intelligendum est , ut scientia certior sit Certitudine Evidentiae ; Fides verò certior Firmitate Adh●sionis . Majus lumen in Scientia , majus R●b●r in Fide . Et hoc , quia in Fide , & ad Fidem Actus imperatus Voluntatis conc●rrit . Credere enim est Actus Intellectus Vero assentientis productus ex Voluntatis Imperio . Biel. in 3. Se●● . d. 23. q. 2. A. 1. Unde Tho. Intellectus Credentis determinatur ad Unum , non per Rationem , sed per Voluntatem ; & ideo Assensus hic accipitur pro Actu Intellectus , secundum quod à Voluntate determinatur ad Unum ▪ 2. 2. q. 2. A. 1. ad 3. stronger , than either his Reason , or his Knowledge : and great reason for this , because it goes higher , and so upon a safer Principle , than either of the other can in this life .

Num. 14 In this Particular , the Books called the Scripture , are commonly and constantly reputed to be the Word of God , and so infallible Verity , to the least point of them . Doth any man doubt this ? The world cannot keep him from going to weigh it at the Balance of Reason , whether it be the Word of God , or not . To the same Weights he brings the Tradition of the Church , the inward motives in Scripture it self , all Testimonies within , which seem to bear witness to it ; and in all this , there is no harm : the danger is , when a man will use no other Scale , but Reason , or prefer Reason before any other Scale . For the Word of God , and the Book containing it , refuse not to be weighed by * * Si vobis , rationi , & veritati consentanea videntur , in pretio habete , &c. de mysteriis Religionis , Justin. Mart. Apol. 2. Igitur , si fuit dispositio Rationis , &c. Tertull . L. de Carne Christi , c. 18. Rationabile est credere Deum esse Autorem Scripturae . Henr. à Gand. Sum. To. 1. Ar. 9. q. 3. Reason . But the Scale is not large enough to contain , nor the Weights to measure out the true vertue , and full force of either . Reason then can give no supernatural ground , into which a man may resolve his Faith , That Scripture is the Word of God infallibly ; yet Reason can go so high , as it can prove that Christian Religion , which rests upon the Authority of this Book , stands upon surer grounds of Nature , Reason , common Equity , and Justice , than any thing in the World , which any Infidel , or meer Naturalist , hath done , doth , or can adhere unto , against it , in that which he makes , accounts , or assumes as Religion to himself .

Num. 15 The Ancient Fathers relied upon the Scriptures , no Christians more ; and having to do with Philosophers ( men very well seen in all the subtilties , which Natural Reason could teach , or learn ) They were often put to it , and did as often make it good , That they had sufficient warrant to rely , so much as They did , upon Scripture . In all which Disputes , because they were to deal with Infidels , they did labour to make good the Authority of the Book of God by such Arguments , as Unbelievers themselves could not but think reasonable , if they weighed them with indifferencie . For though I set the Mysteries of Faith above Reason , which is their proper place ; yet I would have no man think They contradict Reason , or the Principles thereof . No sure . For Reason by her own light can discover how firmly the Principles of Religion are true : But all the Light she hath will never be able to find them false . Nor may any man think that the Principles of Religion , even this , That Scriptures are the Word of God , are so indifferent to a Natural eye , that it may with as just cause lean to one part of the Contradiction , as to the other . For though this Truth , That Scripture is the Word of God , is not so demonstratively evident , à priori , as to enforce Assent : yet it is strengthen'd so abundantly with probable Arguments , both from the Light of Nature it self , and Humane Testimony , that he must be very wilful , and self-conceited , that shall dare to suspect it .

Num. 16 Nay , yet farther , * * Hook . L. 3. ● . 8. Si Plato ipse viv●veret , & me interro●a●tem non aspernaretur , &c. S. Aug. de vera Kelig . c. 3. Videamus quatenus Ratio potest progredi à visibilibus ad invisibilia , &c. Ibid. c. 29. It is not altogether impossible to prove it even by Reason , a Truth infallible , or else to make them deny some apparent Principle of their own . For Example : It is an apparent Principle , and with them , That God , or the Absolute prime Agent , cannot be forced out of any Possession . For if He could be forced by another Greater , He were neither Prince , nor Absolute , nor † † Si vim spe●●es , Deus Valentissimus est , Arist. de Mundo , c. ● . Domini & Moderatores omnium . Cic. 2. d● L●g . God , in their own Theologie . Now they must grant , That that God , and Christ , which the Scripture teaches , and we believe , is the only true God , and no other with him , and so deny the Deity , which they worshipped , or else deny their own Principle about the Deity , That God cannot be commanded , and forced out of possession : For ‖ ‖ Ipse S●turnus , & Serapis , & Jupiter , & q●●●quid Daemonum colitis , victi dolore q●od sunt , eloquuntur . Nec utique in turpit●dinem sui nonnullis praesertim vestrorum assistentibus , mentiuntur . It sis testibus esse eos Daemones de se verum con●●te●●●bus credite . Adjurati enim per Deum verum , & so●●n invi●i , &c. Arnob. 8. contra Gent. Or 〈◊〉 Foelix , as is now thought . their Gods , Saturn , and Serapis , and Jupiter himself , have been adjured by the Name of the true , and only God , and have been forced out of the bodies they possessed , and confessed themselves to be foul and seducing Devils . And their Confession was to be supposed true , in point of Reason : For they that were adored as Gods , would never belie themselves into Devils , to their own reproach , especially in the presence of them that worshipped them , were they not forced . This , many of the Unbelievers saw ; therefore they could not ( in very force of Reason ) but they must either deny their God , or deny their Principle in Nature . Their long Custome would not forsake their God , and their Reason could not forget their Principle . If Reason therefore might judge among them , they could not worship any thing that was under Command . And if it be reasonable to do , and believe this , then why not reasonable also to believe , That Scripture is his Word , given to teach himself , and Christ , since there they find Christ * * S. Mat. 12. 22. doing that , and † † S. Mat. 16. 17. giving power to do it after , which themselves saw executed upon their Devil-Gods ?

Num. 17 Besides , whereas all other written Laws have scarce had the honour to be duly observed , or constantly allowed worthy approbation in the Particular places , where they have been established for Laws ; this Law of Christ , and this Canon of Scripture the container of it , is , or hath been received in almost * * Si Libri quoquo modo se habent sancti tamen Divinarum rerum pleni propè totius generis humani confessione di●●ama●tur , &c. S. Aug. de util. Cred. c. 7. Scriptura summ● dispositione Providenti● super omnes omnium Gentium Literas , omnia ●ibi genera inguni●rum humanorum Divin● Excellens Authoritate subjecit . S. Aug. 11. de Civit. Dei , c. 1. At in omni orbe terr●rum , in omni Gr●cid , & universis Nationibus , innumeri s●nt , & immensi , qui relictis Patriis Legibus , &c. ad observantiam Mosis , & Christi , &c. Origen . 4. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . cap. 1. all Nations under Heaven . And wheresoever it hath been received , it hath been both approved for Unchangeable good ; and believed for Infallible verity . This perswasion could not have been wrought in men of all sorts , but by working upon their Reason , unless we shall think all the World unreasonable , that received it . And certainly God did not give this admirable faculty of Reasoning to the Soul of man , for any cause more prime than this , to discover , or to Judge and allow ( within the Sphere of its own Activity , and not presuming farther ) of the way to Himself , when and howsoever it should be discovered .

Num. 18 One great thing that troubled Rational men , was that which stumbled the Manichee ( an Heresie it was , but more than half Pagan ) namely , That somewhat must be believed , before much could be known . Wise men use not to believe , but what they know : And the Manichee * * Irridere in Catholicae Fidei disciplinà , quod juberentur homines credere , non autem , &c. S. Aug. 1. Retract . c. 14. scorned the Orthodox Christian , as light of Belief ; promising to lead no Disciple after him , but upon evident knowledge . This stumbles many ; but yet the Principle , That somewhat must be believed , before much can be known , stands firm in Reason still . For if in all Sciences there be some Principles , which cannot be proved ; if Reason be able to see this , and confess it ; if almost all Artists have granted it ; if in the Mathematicks , where are the Exactest Demonstrations , there be Quaedam postulata , some things to be first Demanded , and granted , before the Demonstration can proceed : Who can justly deny that to Divinity , A Science of the Highest Object , God Himself , which he easily and reasonably grants to inferiour Sciences , which are more within his reach ? And as all Sciences suppose some Principles without proving ; so have they almost all , some Text , some Authority , upon which they rely in some measure ; and it is Reason they should . For though these Sciences make not their Texts Infallible , as Divinity doth ; yet full consent , and prudent Examination , and long continuance , have won reputation to them , and setled reputation upon them , very deservedly . And were these Texts more void of Truth than they are , yet it were fit , and reasonable to uphold their credit , that Novices , and young Beginners in a Science , which are not able to work strongly upon Reason , nor Reason upon them , may have Authority to believe , till they can learn to Conclude from Principles , and so to know . Is this also reasonable in other Sciences , and shall it not be so in Theology , to have a Text , a Scripture , a Rule , which Novices may be taught first to believe , that so they may after come to the knowledge of those things , which out of this rich Principle , and * * And therefore S. Aug. 2. de Doctr. Christ . c. 8. would have men make themselves perfect in reading the Letter of the Scripture , even before they understood it . Eas notas habeat , etsi nondum intellectu , tamen lectione duntaxat ; No question but to make them ready against they understood it . And as School-Masters make their Scholars conne their Grammar-Rules by heart , that they may be ready for their use , when they better understand them . Treasure are Deduceable ? I yet see not how right Reason can deny these Grounds ; and if it cannot , then a meer Natural man may be thus far convinced , That the Text of God is a very Credible Text.

Num. 19 Well , these are the four ways , by most of which , men offer to prove the Scripture to be the Word of God , as by a Divine and Infallible Warrant . And , it seems , no one of these doth it alone . The Tradition of the present Church is too weak , because that is not absolutely Divine . The Light which is in Scripture it self , is not bright enough , it cannot bear sufficient witness to it self . The Testimony of the Holy Ghost , that is most infallible , but ordinarily it is not so much as considerable in this Question , which is not , how , or by what means we believe , but how the Scripture may be proposed as a Credible Object , fit for Belief . And for Reason , no man expects , that that should prove it ; it doth service enough , if it enable us to disprove that which misguided men conceive against it . If none of these then be an Absolute and sufficient means to prove it , either we must find out another , or see what can be more wrought out of these . And to all this again A. C. says nothing .

For the Tradition of the Church then , certain it is , we must NUM. ●0 . distinguish the Church , before we can judge right of the Validity of the Tradition . For if the speech be of the Prime Christian Church , the Apostles , Disciples , and such as had immediate Revelation from Heaven ; no question , but the Voyce and Tradition of this Church is Divine , not aliquo modo , in a sort , but simply ; and the Word of God from them , is of like Validity , written , or delivered . And against this Tradition ( of which kind this ▪ That the Books of Scripture are the Word of God , is the most general and uniform ) the Church of England never excepted . And when S. * * L. 1. cont. Epis. 〈◊〉 . c. ● . 〈…〉 non cred●r●m E 〈…〉 , ●isi me catholi●● Ecclesi● comm●veret Authorit●● . Augustine said , I would not believe the Gospel , unless the Authority of the Catholike Church moved me , ( which Place you urged at the Conference , though you are now content to slide by i● ) some of your own will not endure should be understood , save † † Occham . Dia● . p. 1 L. ● . c. 4. Intelligitur solum d● Ecclesi● 〈◊〉 ●uit ●●●pore Apostolorum . of the Church in the time of the Apostles only : and ‖ ‖ B●el . lect. 22. in C. Miss● . A tempore Christi & Apostolorum , &c. And so doth S. Aug. take ●ccles . 〈…〉 a F●●d . some of the Church in General , not excluding after-ages . But sure to include Christ , and his Apostles . And the certainty is there , abundance of certainty in it self : but how far that is evident to us , shall after appear .

Num. 21 But this will not serve your turn . The Tradition of the present Church must be as Infallible , as that of the Primitive . But the contrary to this is proved * * ● . 16. N● . 6. before , because this Voyce of the present Church , is not simply Divine . To what end then serves any Tradition of the present Church ? To what ? Why to a very good end . For first , it serves by a full consent to work upon the minds of unbelievers , to move them to read , and to consider the Scripture , which ( they hear by so many Wise , Learned , and Devou● men ) is of no meaner esteem than the Word of God . And secondly , It serves among Novices , Weakings , and Doubters in the Faith , to instruct , and confirm them , till they may acquaint themselves with , and understand the Scripture , which the Church delivers as the Word of God . And thus again some of your own understand the fore-cited Place of St. Augustine , I would not believe the Gospel , &c. * * S●ve In●ideles , ●ive in Fide Novitii . Can. Loc. L. 2. c. 8. Neganti , aut omninò nēsci●●ti Scripturam . Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 1. A. 3. For he speaks it either of Novices , or Doubters in the Faith , or else of such as were in part Infidels . You at the Conference ( though you omit it here ) would needs have it , that S. Augustine spake even of the † † Quid si fateamur Fideles etiam , Ecclesiae Authoritate comm●ueri , ut Scriptur as recipiant : Non tamen inde sequitur ●o● hoc modo penitus persuaderi : aut null● ali● fortioré●ue ratione induci ? Quis antem Christianus est , quem Ecclesia Christi ▪ commendans Scripturam Coristi , non comm●●●at ? Whitaker . D●sp . de sacrâ Scripturâ . Contr● . 1. ● . 3. ● , 8. ubi citat locum ●anc , S. Aug. faithful , which I cannot yet think : For he speaks to the Manichees , and they had a great part of the Infidel in them . And the words immediately before these , are , If thou shouldest ●ind one , Qui Evangelio nondum credit , which did not yet believe the Gospel , what wouldest thou do to make him believe ? ‖ ‖ Et 〈◊〉 Quibus ●●●empera●● dicentibus Credite Evang●●io . Therefore he speaks of himself , when he did not believe . Ego verò non , Truly I would not , &c. So to these two ends it serves , and there need be no Question between us . But then every thing , that is the first Inducer to believe , is not by and by either the Principal Motive , or the chief , and last Object of Belief , upon which a man may rest his Faith . Unless we shall be of * * ●●●tum est quod tene●●● credere omnibus 〈…〉 in Sacro Canon● , quia Ecclesia credit ●x ea ratione solum ▪ Ergo per prius & magis t●●●●u● Credere Ecclesiae , quàm Evang●●●● . A●tt 〈…〉 n. in 3 ▪ Dist. 24. Conclus . 6. ●●● . 6. And to make a shew of proof for this , he ●alsifies S. August . most notoriously , and reads that known place , not Ni●● 〈◊〉 commo●●r●● ( at all read it ) ●●● r●m●elleret . Pate● . quiae dicit Augustinus , Evangelio non Credere● , nisi ad ●o● me compell●ret Ecclesi● Authoritas . Ibid. And so also Gerson reads it , in Declarat . veritatum , qu● cr●dend● sunt , &c. part. 1. p. 414. §. 3. But in a most ancient Manuscript in Corp. Chr. Colledge Library in Cambridge , the words are , Nisi me commov●r●t , &c. Jacobu● Almain's Opinion ▪ That we are per pri●● & magis , first and more bound to believe the Church , than the Gospel . Which your own Learned men , as you may see by ● Mel. Canus , reject as Extreme ●oul , † † C●●●n L. ● . de L●c●● c. 8. fol. 34. ● . §. 16. Num. 6. and so indeed it is . The first knowledge then ( after the Quid Nomin●● is known by Grammar ) that helps to open a mans understanding , and prepares him to be able to Demonstrate a Truth , and make it evident , is his Logick : But when he hath made a Demonstration , he resolves the knowledge of his Conclusion , not into his Grammatical , or Logical Principles , but into the Immediate Principles out of which it is deduced . So in thi● Particular , a man is probably led by the Authority of the present Church , as by the first informing , inducing , perswading Means , to believe the Scripture to be the Word of God : but when he hath studied , considered , and compared this Word with it self , and with other Writings , with the help of Ordinary Grace , and a mind morally induced , and reasonably perswaded by the Voyce of the Church ; the Scripture then gives greater and higher reasons of Credibility to it self , then Tradition alone could give . And then he that Believes , resolves his last and full Assent , That Scripture is of Divine Authority , into internal Arguments found in the Letter it self , though found by the Help and Direction of Tradition without , and Grace within . And the resolution that is rightly grounded , may not endure to pitch , and rest it self upon the Helps , but upon that Divine Light , which the Scripture , no Question , hath in it self , but is not kindled , till these Helps come ▪ Thy Word is a Light * * Psal. 119 10● . S●●ctarum Scripturarum Lumen , S. Aug. L. de verâ Relig. c. ● . Quid 〈◊〉 Scripturum vanis umbris ? &c. S. August . ● . d● M●r. Eccl. Cathol. ●35 . : so David . A Light ? Therefore it is as much manifestati●um sui , as al●eri●s , a manifestation to it self , as to other things which it shews : but still , not till the Candle be Lighted ; not till there hath been a Preparing Instruction , What Light it is ▪ Children call the Sun and Moon , Candles ; Gods Candles : They see the light as well as men , but cannot distinguish between them , till some Tradition , and Education hath informed their Reason . And * * 1 Cor. 2. 14. animalis homo , the natural man , sees some Light of Moral counsel , and instruction in Scripture , as well as Believers ; But he takes all that glorious Lustre for Candle-light , and cannot distinguish between the Sun , and twelve to the Pound , till Tradition of the Church , and Gods Grace put to it , have cleared his understanding . So Tradition of the present Church , is the first Moral Motive to Belief . But the Belief it self , That the Scripture is the Word of God , rests † † Orig. 4. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . c. 1. went this way ; yet was he a great deal nearer the prime Tradition , than we are . For being to prove that the Scriptures were inspired from God , he saith , D●●oc ●ssig●abimus ●x ipsis Divi●is Scripturis , qu● nos comp●●●●t●r mo●●ri●t , &c. upon the Scripture , when a man finds it to answer , and exceed all that , which the Church gave in Testimony , as will after appear . And as in the Voyce of the Primitive and Apostolical Church , there was ‖ ‖ Princip 〈…〉 ( ●●●●m & hîc ) credimus propter D●●m , non Apostol●s , &c. H●nr à ●and . Sum. A. 9. q. 3. Now , if where the Apostoles themselves spake , ultimate resolutio Fidei , was in Deum , not in ipsos per se , much more shall it be in Deum , than in pr●sentem Ecclesi●● : and into the writings of the Apostles , than into the words of their Successors , made up into a Tradition . simply Divine Authority , delivering the Scripture , as Gods Word ; so , after Tradition of the present Church hath taught , and informed the Soul , the Voyce of God i● plainly heard in Scripture it self . And then here 's double Authority , and both Divine , that confirms Scripture to be the Word of God , Tradition of the Apostles delivering it ; And the internal worth and argument in the Scripture , obvious to a Soul prepared by the present Churches Tradition , and Gods Grace .

Num. 22 The Difficulties which are pretended against this , are not many , and they will easily vanish . For first , you pretend , we go to Private Revelations for Light to know Scripture . No , we do not , you see it is excluded out of the very state of the Question : and we go to the Tradition of the present Church , and by it , as well as you . Here we differ ; we use the Tradition of the present Church , as the first Motive , not as the Last Resolution of our Faith . We Resolve only into * * Calv. Instit. 1. c. 5. §. 2. Christiana Ecclesia Prophetarum scriptis , & Apostolorum praedicatione initio fundata ●uit , ●●icunque reperietur e● Doctrina , &c. Prime Tradition Apostolical , and Scripture it self .

Num. 23 Secondly , you pretend , we do not , nor cannot know the prime Apostolical Tradition , but by the Tradition of the present Church ; and that therefore , if the Tradition of the present Church be not Gods unwritten Word , and Divine , we cannot yet know Scripture to be Scripture , by a Divine Authority . Well I Suppose I could not know the prime Tradition to be Divine , but by the present Church , yet it doth not follow , that therefore I cannot know Scripture to be the Word of God by a Divine Authority ; because Divine Tradition is not the sole , and only means to prove it . For suppose , I had not , nor could have full assurance of Apostolical Tradition Divine ; yet the moral perswasion , reason , and force of the present Church , is ground enough to move any reasonable man , that it is fit he should read the Scripture , and esteem very reverently and highly of it . And this once done , the Scripture hath then , In , and Home-Arguments enough to put a Soul , that hath but ordinary Grace , out of Doubt , That Scripture is the Word of God , Infallible and Divine .

Num. 24 Thirdly , you pretend , that we make the Scripture absolutely , and fully to be known Lumine suo , by the Light and Testimony which it hath in , and gives to it self . Against this , you give reason for your selves , and proof from us . Your Reason is , If there be sufficient Light in Scripture to shew it self , then every man that can , and doth but read it , may know it presently to be the Divine Word of God ; which we see by daily experience , men neither do , nor can . First , it is not absolutely , nor universally true , There is * * And where Hooker uses this very Argument , as he doth , L. 3. §. 8. his words are not , If there be sufficient Light ; But , if that Light be Evident . sufficient Light ; therefore every man may see it . Blinde men are men , and cannot see it ; and † † 1 Cor. 2. 14. sensual men , in the Apostles judgment , are such : Nor may we deny , and put out this Light , as insufficient , because blind eyes cannot , and perverse eyes will not see it ; no more than we may deny meat to be sufficient for nourishment , though men that are heart-sick , cannot eat it . Next , we do not say , That there is such a full light in Scripture , as that every man upon the first sight must yeeld to it ; such Light as is found in Prime Principles ; Every whole is greater than a Part of the same ; and this , The same thing cannot be , and not be , at the same time , and in the same respect . These carry a natural Light with them , and evident : for the Terms are no sooner understood , then the Principles themselves are fully known , to the convincing of mans understanding , and so they are the beginning of knowledge ; which , where it is perfect , dwells in full Light : but such a full Light we do neither say is , nor require to be in Scripture ; and if any particular man do , let him answer for himself . The Question is , only of such a Light in Scripture , as is of force to breed faith , that it is the Word of God ; not to make a perfect knowledge . Now Faith , of whatsoever it is , this or other Principle , is an Evidence * * 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Heb. 11. 1. , as well as Knowledge ; and the Belief is firmer than any Knowledge can be , because it rests upon Divine Authority , which cannot deceive ; whereas Knowledge ( or at least he that thinks he knows ) is not ever certain in Deductions from Principles . † † §. 16. N● . 13. But the Evidence is not so clear : For it is ‖ ‖ Heb. 11. 1. of things not seen , in regard of the Object ; and in regard of the Subject that sees , it is in * * 1 Cor. 13. 12. And A. C. confesies , p. 52. That this very thing in Question may be known infallible , when 't is known but obscurely . Et Scotus in 3. Dist. 23. q. 1 fol. 41. B. Hoc modo facile est videre quomocò Fides est cum aenigmate , & obscuritate . Quis Habitus Fidei non credit Articulum esse verum ex Evidenti● Objecti , sed propter boc , quod assentit veratitati infundentis Habitum , & in hoc revelantis Credibilia . aenigmate , in a Glass , or dark speaking . Now God doth not require a full Demonstrative Knowledge in us , that the Scripture is his Word , and therefore in his Providence hath kindled in it no Light for that , but he requires our Faith of it , and such a certain Demonstration , as may fit that . And for that , he hath left sufficient Light in Scripture to Reason and Grace meeting , where the Soul is morally prepared by the Tradition of the Church ; unless you be of Bellarmine's † † Bellar. l. 3. de Eccles. c. 14. Credere ullas esse divinas Scripturas , non est omninò necessarium ad salutem . I will not break my Discourse , to ●i●●e this speech of Bellarmine ; it is bad enough in the best sense , that favour it self can give it . For if he mean by omninò , that it is not altogether , or simply necessary to believe there is Divine Scripture , and a written Word of God ; that 's false , that being granted , which is among all Christians , That there is a Scripture : And God would never have given a Supernatural unnecessary thing . And if he means by omninò , that it is not in any wise necessary , then it is sensibly false . For the greatest upholders of Tradition that ever were , made the Scripture very ncessary in all the Ages of the Church . So it was necessary , because it was given ; and given , because God thought it necessary . Besides , upon Roman Grounds , this I think will follow : That which the Tradition of the present Church delivers , as necessary to believe , is omninò necessary to salvation : But that there are Divine Scriptures , the Tradition of the present Church delivers , as necessary to believe : Therefore to believe there are Divine Scriptures , is omninò ( be the sense of the word what it can ) necessary to Salvation . So Bellarmine is herein ●oul , and unable to stand upon his own ground . And he is the more , partly , because he avouches this Proposition for truth after the New Testament written . And partly , because he might have seen the state of this Proposition carefully examined by Gandavo , and distinguished by times . Sum. p. 1. A. 8. q. 4. sine . Opinion , That to believe there are any Divine Scriptures , is not omninò necessary to Salvation .

Num. 25 The Authority which you pretend against this , is out of * * Lib. 1. §. 14. Hooker : Of things necessary , the very chiefest is to know , what Books we are bound to esteem Holy ; which Point is confessed impossible for the Scripture it self to teach . Of this † † Protest . Apol. Tract . 1. §. 10. N. 3. Brierly ( the Store-house for all Priests that will be idle , and yet seem well read ) tell us , That * * L. 2. §. 4. Hooker gives a very sensible Demonstration : It is not the Word of God , which doth , or possibly can assure us , that we do well to think it is his Word : for if any one Book of Scripture did give Testimony to all ; yet still that Scripture , which giveth credit to the rest , would require another to give credit unto it . Nor could we ever come to any pause , to rest our assurance this way : so that unless , beside Scripture , there were something that might assure , &c. And † † L. 2. §. 7. & L. 3. §. 8. this he acknowledgeth ( saith Brierly ) is the Authority of Gods Church . Certainly , Hooker gives a true , and a sensible Demonstration ; but Brierly wants fidelity , and integrity , in citing him : For in the first place , Hooker's speech is , Scripture it self cannot teach this ; nor can the Truth say , that Scripture it self can . It must needs ordinarily have Tradition , to prepare the mind of a man to receive it . And in the next place , where he speaks so sensibly , That Scripture cannot bear witness to it self , nor one part of it to another ; that is grounded upon Nature , which admits no created thing to be witness to it self ; and is acknowledged by our Saviour , ‖ ‖ S. Joh. 5. 31. He speaks of himself as man . S. Joh. 8. 13. If I bear witness to my self , my witness is not true , that is , is not of force to be reasonably accepted for Truth . But then it is more than manifest , that Hooker delivers his Demonstration of Scripture alone . For if Scripture hath another proof , nay many other proofs to usher it , and lead it in , then no Question , it can both prove , and approve it self . His words are , So that unless , besides Scripture , there be , &c. Besides Scripture ; therefore he excludes not Scripture , though he call for another Proof to lead it in , and help in assurance , namely , Tradition , which no man , that hath his brains about him , denies . In the two other Places , Brierly falsifies shamefully ; for folding up all that Hooker says , in these words ; This ( other means to assure us besides Scripture ) is the Authority of Gods Church ; he wrinkles that Worthy Author desperately , and shrinks up his meaning . For in the former place abused by Brierly , no man can set a better state of the Question between Scripture , and Tradition , than Hooker doth : * * L. 2. §. 7. His words are these : The Scripture is the ground of our Belief ; The Authority of man ( that is the Name he gives to Tradition ) is the Koy which opens the door of entrance into the knowledge of the Scripture . I ask now ; When a man is entred , and hath viewed a house , and upon viewing likes it , and upon liking resolves unchangeably to dwell there ; doth he set up his Resolution upon the Key , that let him in ? No sure ; but upon the Goodness and Commodiousness , which he sees in the House . And this is all the difference ( that I know ) between us in this Point ; In which , do you grant ( as you ought to do ) that we resolve our Faith into Scripture as the Ground ; and we will never deny , that Tradition is the Key that lets us in . In the latter place , Hooker is as plain , as constant to himself , and Truth : * * L. 3. §. 8. His words are : The first outward Motive , leading men so to esteem of the Scripture , is the Authority of Gods Church , &c. But afterwards , the more we bestow our Labour in reading , or learning the Mysteries thereof , the more we find that the thing it self doth answer our received opinion concerning it : so that the former inducement prevailing somewhat with us before , doth now much more prevail , when the very thing hath ministred farther Reason . Here then again , in his Judgment , Tradition is the first Inducement ; but the farther Reason , and Ground , is the Scripture . And Resolution of Faith ever settles upon the Farthest Reason it can , not upon the First Inducement . So that the State of this Question is firm , and yet plain enough , to him that will not shut his eyes .

Num. 26 Now here after a long silence A. C. thrusts himself in again , A. C. p. 52. and tells me , That if I would consider the Tradition of the Church , not only as it is the Tradition of a Company of Fallible men , in which sense the Authority of it ( as himself confesses ) is but Humane , and Fallible , &c. But as the Tradition of a Company of men assisted by Christ , and his Holy Spirit ; in that sense I might easily finde it more than an Introduction , indeed as much as would amount to an Infallible Motive . Well , I have considered The Tradition of the present Church both these ways . And I find that A. C. confesses , That in the first sense , the Tradition of the Church is meer humane Authority , and no more . And therefore in this sense , it may serve for an Introduction to this Belief , but no more . And in the second sense , as it is not the Tradition of a Company of men only , but of men assisted by Christ , and His Spirit : In this second sense I cannot finde , that the Tradition of the present Church is of Divine and Infallible Authority , till A. C. can prove , That this Company of men ( the Roman Prelates , and their Clergy he means ) are so fully , so clearly , so permanently assisted by Christ , and his Spirit , as may reach to Infallibility , to a Divine Infallibility , in this , or any other Principle , which they teach . For every Assistance of Christ , and the Blessed Spirit , is not enough to make the Authority of any Company of men Divine , and infallible ; but such and so great an Assistance only , as is purposely given to that effect . Such an Assistance the Prophets under the Old Testament , and the Apostles under the New had ; but neither the High-Priest with his Clergy in the Old , nor any Company of Prelates , or Priests in the New , since the Apostles , ever had it . And therefore , though at the intreaty of A. C. I have considered A. C. p. 52. this very well ; yet I cannot , no not in this Assisted sense , think the Tradition of the present Church , Divine and Infallible , or such Company of men to be worthy of Divine and infallible Credit , and sufficient to breed in us Divine , and Infallible Faith ▪ Which I am sorry A. C. should affirm so boldly as he doth . A. C. p. 52. What ? That Company of men ( the Roman Bishop , and his Clergy ) of Divine and Infallible Credit , and sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith ? Good God! Whither will these men go ? Surely , they are wise in their generation , but that makes them never a whit the more the Children of Light * * S. Luke 16. 8. : S. Luk. 16. And could they put this home upon the world ) as they are gone far in it ) what might they not effect ? How might they , and would they then Lord it over the Faith of Christendom , contrary to † † 1 S. Pet. 5. 3. S. Peters Rule ( whose Successors certainly in this they are not . ) But I pray , if this Company of men be infallibly assisted , whence is it , that this very Company have erred so dangerously , as they have , not only in some other things , but even in this Particular , by equaling the Tradition of the present Church to the written Word of God ? Which is a Doctrine unknown to the ‖ ‖ S. Basil goes as far for Traditions as any . For he says : Parem vim habent ad pietatem L. de Sp. Sanct. c. 27. But first , he speaks of Apostolical Tradition , not of the Tradition of the present Church . Secondly , the Learned take exceptions to this Book of S. Basil , as corrupted . Bp. A●dr . Opuse . cont. Peron . p. 9. Thirdly , S. Basil himself , Ser. de Fido , professes that he uses sometimes Agrapha , sed ea solùm quae non sunt aliena à piâ secundum Scripturam sententiá . So he makes the Scripture their Touch-stone , or tryal . And therefore must of Necessity make Scripture superior , in as much as that which is able to try another , is of greater force , and superior Dignity in that use , than the thing tried by it . And Stapleton himself confesses , Traditionem recentiorem & posteriorem , sicut & particularem , nullo modo cum Scripturâ , vel cum Traditionibus priùs à se explicatis comparand●m esse . Stapleton . Relect. Controv. 5. q. 5. A. 2. Primitive Church , and which frets upon the very Foundation it self , by justling with it . So belike , he that hath but half an indifferent eye , may see this Assisted Company have erred , and yet we must wink in obedience , and think them Infallible .

Num. 27 But A. C. would have me consider again , That it is as easie A. C. p. 52. to take the Tradition of the present Church in the two fore-named senses , as the present Scriptures printed , and approved by men of this Age. For in the first sense , The very Scriptures ( saith he ) considered as printed , and approved by men of this Age , can be no more than of Humane Credit . But in the second sense , as printed and approved by men assisted by God's Spirit for true Copies of that which was first written , then we may give Infallible Credit to them . Well . I have considered this too . And I can take the Printing , and Approving the Copies of Holy-Writ in these two senses . And I can , and do make a difference between Copies printed and approved by meer moral men , and men assisted by Gods Spirit . And yet for the Printing only , a skilful , and an able moral man may do better service to the Church , than an illiterate man , though assisted in other things by God's Spirit . But when I have considered all this , what then ? The Scripture being put in writing , is a thing visibly existent ; and if any error be in the Print , 't is easily corrigible by * * Ut § 18. Nu. 4. Ex S. Aug. L. 32. cont. Fanstum . c. 16. former Copies . Tradition is not so easily observed , nor so safely kept . And howsoever , to come home to that which A. C. infers upon it , namely , That the Tradition of A. C. p. 53. the present Church may be accepted in these two senses : And if this be all that he will infer ( for his pen here is troubled , and forsakes him , whether by any check of Conscience , or no , I know not ) I will , and you see , have granted it already without more ado , with this Caution , That every Company of men assisted by Gods Spirit , are not assisted to this height , to be Infallible by Divine Authority .

Num. 28 For all this A. C. will needs give a needless Proof of the Business : Namely , That there is the Promise of Christs , and his Holy A. C. p. 53. Spirits continual presence and assistance , S. Luke 10. 16. Mat. 28. 19 , 20. Joh. 14. 16. not only to the Apostles , but to their Successors also , the lawfully sent Pastors , and Doctors of the Church in all Ages . And that this Promise is no less , but rather more expresly to them in their Preaching by word of mouth , than in writing , or reading , or printing , or approving of Copies of what was formerly written by the Apostles . And to all this I shall briefly say , That there is a Promise of Christ's and the Holy Spirits continual presence , and assistance . I do likewise grant most freely , that this Promise is on the part of Christ , and the Holy Ghost , most really and fully performed . But then this Promise must not be extended further than 't was made . It was made of Continual presence and assistance ; That I grant : and it was made to the Apostles and their Successors ; That I grant too . But in a different Degree . For it was of Continual , and Infallible Assistance to the Apostles ; But to their Successors , of Continual and fitting assistance , but not Infallible . And therefore the lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church in all Ages , have had , and shall have Continual Assistance ; but by A. C's leave , not Infallible , at least , not Divine and Infallible , either in writing , reading , printing , or approving Copies . And I believe A. C. is the first , that durst affirm this : I thought he would have kept the Popes Prerogative intire , that He only might have been Infallible ; and not He neither , but in Cathedrâ , sate down and well advised . And well advised : Yes , that 's right . * * Nam multe sunt Decretales h●r●ticae , sicut dicit Ocham . Et firmiter hoc Credo , sed non licet dogmatis are Oppositum , quo●iam sunt determinatae , nisi manifest● constet , &c. Ja. Almain . in 3. St●t . D. 24. q. unic. i. Conclus . 6. Dub. 6. ●●●● . And Alphons à Castro also both says and proves , Caelestinum Papam errasse , non ut privatam Personam , sed ut Papam . L. 1. advers. Har. c. 4. and the Gloss Confesses . Eum errare posse ●●● . 24. q. 1. C. A. Recta ergo . But he may be sate , and not well Advised , even in Cathedrâ . And Now , shall we have all the Lawfully sent Pasters and Doctors of that Church in all ages Infallible too ? Here 's a deal of Infallibility indeed , and yet error store . The truth is , the Jesuites have a Moneths mind to this Infallibility . And though A. C. out of his bounty is content to extend it to all the lawfully sent Pastors of the Church : yet to his own Society questionless he means it chiefly . As did the Apologist to whom Casaubon replies , to Fronto Ducaeus . The words of the * * Nam in side quidem Jesuitam errare non posse , atque adeo esse hoc unicum 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , caeteris , quae solent à Poëtis plurim● commemorari , post●d● annumerandum , si nescis , mi Fronto , & puto nescire , doceb● te , ab Apologista doctus , hoc ipsum disertis verbis affirma●te . Sic ille , cap. 3. Ejus exemplaris quod ad Sereniss . Regem fuit miss●m , paginâ 119. Jungantur in unum , ait , dies cum nocte , tenebrae cum luce , calidum cum frigido , sanitas cum morbo , vita cum morte : & erit tum spes aliqua posse in caput Jesuitae haeresin cadere . Isa. Casaubon . Ep. ad Front . Ducaeum . Lond. 1611. Apologist are : Let day and night — life and death be joyned together , and then there will be some hope , that Heresle may fall upon the person of a Jesuite . Yea marry , this is something indeed . Now we know where Infallibility is to be found . But for my present Occasion , touching the Lawfully sent Pastors of the Church , &c. I will give no other Confutation of it , then that M. Fisher and A. C. ( if they be two men ) are lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church ; at least I am sure , they 'll assume they are , and yet they are not Infallible ; which I think , appears plain enough in some of their errors manifested by this Discourse , and elsewhere . Or if they do hold themselves infallible , let them speak it out , as the Apologist did .

Num. 29 As for the Three Places of Scripture , which A. C. cites , they are of old alledged , and well known in this Controversie . The A. C. p. 53. First is in S. Luke 10. where Christ saith , He that heareth you , S. Luk. 10. 16. heareth me . This was absolutely true in the * * Per quod docet quicquid per Sanctos Apostolos dicitur , acciptandum esse , quia qui illos audit , Christum audit , &c. S. Cyrillus apud Thom. in Catena . Et Dominus dedit Apostolis suis , potestatem Evangelii , per quos & Veritatem , id est , Dei Filium cogno●imus , &c. Quibus & disit Dominus , Qui vos audit , &c. Iraeneus praesat . in L. 3. edvers . Haer. fine . Apostles , who kept themselves to that , which was reavealed by Christ . But it was to be but Conditionally true in their † † Dicit ad Apostolos , ac per hoc ad Omnes Praepositos , qui Apostolis Vicari à Ordinatione succedunt . S. Cyprian . L. 4. Epist. 9. But S. Cyprian doth not say , that this speech of our Saviours was aequaliter dictum , alike and equally spoken and promised to the Apostles , and the succeeding Bishops . And I believe A. C. will not dare to say in plain and express Terms , That this speech , He that heareth you , ●earath me , doth as amply belong to every Roman Priest , as to Peter , and the Apostles . No , a great deal of Difference will become them well . Successors , He that heareth you , heareth me . That is , so long , and so ‖ ‖ Be ye followers of me , even as I am of Christ , 1 Cor. 11. 1. and 1 Thess. 1. 6. far , as you * * And so V●●●r . Beda expresly , both for hearing the word , and for contemning it ▪ For neither of these ( saith he ) belong only to them which saw our Saviour in the flesh ; but to all hodiè quoque : but with this limitation ; if they hear , or despise Evangelii verba : not the Preachers own . Beda in S. Luke 10. 15 , 16. speak my words , and not your own . For † † S. Mat. 28. 20. where the Command is for Preaching , the Restraint is added . Go ( saith Christ ) and teach all Nations . But you may not preach all things what you please ; but , all things which I have commanded you . The Publication is yours , the Doctrine is mine : And where the Doctrine is not mine , there your Publication is beyond or short of your Commission . The Second Place is in S. Mat. 28. There Christ says again , ‖ ‖ S Mat. 2● . 19 , 20. I am with you always unto the end of the world . Yes ; most certain it is , present by his Spirit ; For else in bodily presence He continued not with his Apostles , but during his abode on Earth . And this Promise of his Spiritual Presence was to their Successors ; else , why to the end of the World ? The Apostles , did not , could not live so long . But then to the * * R●banus Maur. goes no farther , then that to the End some will always be in the world fit for Christ by his Spirit and Grace to inhabit : Divinâ mansione & inhabitatione digni . Rab. in S. Matth. 28. 19 , ●0 . Pergatis habentes Dominum Protectorem , & Ducem , saith S. Cypr. L. 4. Epistl . 1. But he doth not say , How far forth . And , Loquitur Fidelibus sicut uni Corperi . S. Chrysost. Homil. in S. Matth. And if S. Chrysostome inlarge it so far , I hope A. C. will not extend the Assistance given or promised here to the whole Body of the Faithful , to an Infallible , and Divine Assistance in every of them , as well as in the Pastors and Doctors . Successors , the Promise goes no farther , then I am with you always ; which reaches to continual assistance , but not to Divine , and Infallible . Or if he think me mistaken , let him shew me any One Father of the Church , that extends the sense of this Place to Divine and Infallible Assistance , granted hereby to all the Apostles Successors . Sure I am , Saint † † In illis donis quibus salus aliorum queritur ( quali a sunt Prophetiae , & interpretationes Sermonum , &c. ) Spiritus Sanctus nequaquam semper in Praedicatoribus permanet . S. Greg. L. 2. Moral . c. 29. prin. Edit. Basil. 1551. Gregory thought otherwise . For he says plainly , That in those Gifts of God which concern other mens salvation ( of which Preaching of the Gospel is One ) the Spirit of Christ , the Holy Ghost doth not always abide in the Preachers , be they never so lawfully sent Pastors , or Doctors of the Church . And if the Holy Ghost doth not always abide in the Preachers , then most certainly he doth not abide in them to a Divine Infallibility always . The Third Place is in S. John 14 , where S. John 14. 16. Christ says , The Comforter the Holy Ghost shall abide with you for ever . Most true again . For the Holy Ghost did abide with the Apostles according to Christs Promise there made , and shall abide with their Successors for ever , to ‖ ‖ Iste Consolator non a●feretur à Vobis , sicut subtra●itur Humanitas mea per mortem , sed aeternalitèr erit Vobiscum , ●îc per Gratiam , in futuro per Gloriam . Lyra , in S. John 14. 16. You see there the Holy Ghost shall be present by Consolation and Grace , not by Infallible Assistance . comfort and preserve them . But here 's no Promise of Divine Infallibility made unto them . And for that Promise which is made , and expresly of Infallibility , Saint * * S. Joh. 16. 13. John 16. ( though not cited by A. C. ) That 's confined to the Apostles only , for the setling of them in all Truth . And yet not simply all : For , there are some Truths ( saith † † Omnem veritatem : Non arbitror in hac vita in cujusquam mente compleri , &c. S. August . in S. Joh. Tract. 96. versus ●in . Saint Augustine ) which no mans Soul can comprehend in this life . Not simply all : But ‖ ‖ Spiritus Sanctius , &c. qui eos doceret Omnem Veritatem , quam tunc , cùm iis loquebatur , portare non poterant . S. Joh. 16. 12 , 13. & S. August . Tract. 97. in S. Joh. prin. all those Truths , quae non poterant portare , which they were not able to bear , when He Conversed with them . Not simply all ; but all that was necessary for the Founding , propagating , establishing , and Confirming the Christian Church . But if any man take the boldness to inlarge this Promise in the fulness of it , beyond the persons of the Apostles themselves , that will fall out which Saint † † Omnes vel ins●pientissimi Haeretici , qui se Christianos vocari volunt , ●●daci as sigmentorum suorum , quas maximè exhorret sensus humanus , hac Occasione Evan●●licae sententiae color are conentur , &c. S. August . T. 97. in S. Joh. circa med. Augustine hath in a manner prophecied : Every Heretick will shelter himself , and his Vanities under this Colour of Infallible Verity .

Num. 30 I told you a * * Nam . 26. A. C. p. 52. little before , that A. C. his Pen was troubled , and failed him : Therefore I will help to make out his Inference for him , that his Cause may have all the strength it can . And ( as I conceive ) this is that he would have . The Tradition of the present Church is as able to work in us Divine and Infallible Faith , That the Scripture is the Word of God : As that the Bible ( or Books of Scripture ) now printed , and in use , is a true Copy of that , which was first written , by the Pen-men of the Holy Ghost , and delivered to the Church . 'T is most true , the Tradition of the present Church is alike operative , and powerful in , and over both these works : but neither Divine , nor Infallible in either . But as it is the first moral Inducement to perswade , that Scripture is the Word of God , so is it also the first , but moral still , that the Bible we now have , is a true Copy of that which was first written . But then as in the former , so in this latter for the true Copy , The last Resolution of our Faith cannot possibly rest upon the naked Tradition of the present Church , but must by , and with it go higher to other Helps and Assurances . Where I hope A. C. will confess , we have greater helps to discover the truth , or falshood of a Copy , than we have means to look into a Tradition . Or especially to sift out this Truth , That it was a Divine and Infallible Revelation , by which the Originals of Scripture were first written : That being far more the Subject of this Inquiry , than the Copy , which according to Art and Science may be examined by former preceding Copies close up to the very Apostles times .

Num. 31 But A. C. hath not done yet ; For in the last place he tells us , That Tradition and Scripture , without any vicious Circle , A. C. p. 53. do mutually confirm the Authority either of other . And truly for my part , I shall easily grant him this , so he will grant me this other : Namely , That though they do mutually , yet they do not equally confirm the Authority either of other . For Scripture doth infallibly confirm the Authority of Church-Traditions truly so called : But Tradition doth but morally and probably confirm the Authority of the Scripture . And this is manifest by A. C.'s own Similitude : For ( saith he ) 't is as a Kings Embassadors word of mouth , and His Kings Letters bear mutual witness to each other . Just so indeed . For His Kings Letters of Credence under hand and seal , confirm the Embassadors Authority Infallibly to all that know Seal , and hand : But the Embassadors word of mouth confirms His Kings Letters but only probably . For else , Why are they called Letters of Credence , if they give not him more Credit , than he can give them ? But that which follows I cannot approve , to wit , That the Lawfully sent Preachers of the Gospel are Gods Legats , and the Scriptures Gods Letters , which he hath appointed his Legates to deliver , and expound . So far 't is well , but here 's the sting : That these Letters do warrant , that the People may hear , and give Credit to these Legates of Christ , as to Christ the King himself . Soft , this is too high a great deal . No * * Will A. C. maintain , that any Legate ● Latere is of as great Credit , as the Pope himself ? Legate was ever of so great Credit as the King himself . Nor was any Priest , never so lawfully sent , ever of that Authority , that Christ himself ; No sure , For ye call me Master , and Lord , and ye do well ; for so I am , saith our Saviour , S. John 13. And certainly , this did not suddenly S. Joh. 13. 13. drop out of A. C's Pen. For he told us once before , A. C. p. 52. That this Company of men which deliver the present Churches Tradition , ( that is , the lawfully sent Preachers of the Church ) are assisted by Gods Spirit to have in them Divine and Infallible Authority , and to be worthy of Divine and Infallible Credit , sufficient to breed in us Divine , and Infallible Faith . Why , but is it possible these men should go thus far to defend an Error , be it never so dear unto them ? They as Christ ? Divine , and Infallible Authority in them ? Sufficient to breed in us Divine , and Infallible Faith ? I have often heard some wise men say , That the Jesuite in the Church of Rome , and the Precise party in the Reformed Churches agree in many things , though they would seem most to differ . And surely this is one : For both of them differ extremely about Tradition . The one in magnifying it , and exalting it into Divine Authority ; the other vilifying , and depressing it almost beneath Humane . And yet even in these different ways , both agree in this Consequent : That the Sermons and Preachings by word of mouth , of the lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church , are able to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith , Nay , are the * * For this A. C. says expresly of Tradition , p. 52. And then he adds , That the Promise for this was no less , but rather more Expresly made to the lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church in all ages in their teaching by word of mouth , than in writing , &c. p. 53. very word of God . So A. C. expresly . And no less then so , have some accounted of their own factious words ( to say no more ) than as the † † For the freeing of factious and silenced Ministers , is ●●●●ed , the Restoring of Gods Word to its Liberty . In the Godly Author of the late News from Ipswich , P. 5. Word of God . I ever took Sermons ( and so do still ) to be most necessary Expositions , and Applications of Holy Scripture , and a great ordinary means of saving knowledge . But I cannot think them , or the Preachers of them Divinely Infallible . The Ancient Fathers of the Church preached far beyond any of these of either faction ; And yet no one of them durst think himself Infallible , much less , that whatsoever he preached was the Word of God . And it may be Observed too , That no men are more apt to say , That all the Fathers were but Men , and might Erre , than they that think their own preachings are Infallible .

Num. 32 The next thing ( after this large Interpretation of A. C. ) which I shall trouble you with , is , That this method , and manner of proving Scripture to be the Word of God , which I here use , is the same , which the Ancient Church ever held , namely , Tradition , or Ecclesiastical Authority first ; and then all other Arguments , but especially internal , from the Scripture it self . This way the Church went in S. Augustine's * * And S. Aug. himself . L. 13. contra Faustum , c. 5. proves by an Internal Argument the fulfilling of the Prophets . Scriptura ( saith he ) quae fidem suam rebus ipsis probat quae per temporum successiones haec impleri , &c. And Hen. à Gand. Par. 1. Sum. A. 9. q. 3. cites S. August . Book de vera Religione . In which Book , though these four Arguments are not found in Terms together , yet they fill up the scope of the whole Book . Time . He was no enemy to Church-Tradition ; yet when he would prove , that the Author of the Scripture ( and so of the whole knowledge of Divinity , as it is supernatural ) is Deus in Christo , God in Christ ; he takes this as the All-sufficient way , and gives four proofs , all internal to the Scripture : First , The Miracles . Secondly , That there is nothing carnal in the Doctrine , Thirdly , That there hath been such performance of it . Fourthly , That by such a Doctrine of Humility , the whole world almost hath been converted . And whereas àd muniendam Fidem , for the Defending of the Faith , and keeping it entire , there are two things requisite , Scripture , and Church-Tradition ; † † Duplici modo muniri fidem , &c. Primò Divinae Legis Authoritate , tum deinde Ecclesiae Catholicae Traditione . cont. Haer. c. 1. Vincent . Lirinens . places Authority of Scriptures first , and then Tradition . And since it is apparent , that Tradition is first in order of time , it must necessarily follow , that Scripture is first in order of Nature , that is , the chief , upon which Faith rests , and resolves it self . And your own School confesses this was the way ever . The Woman of ‖ ‖ S. Joh. 4. Samaria is a known Resemblance , but allowed by your selves : For * * Hen. à. Gand. Sum. Par. 1. A. 10. q. 1. Sic quotidie apud illos qui foris sunt , intrat Christus per mulierem , i. Ecclesiam , & credunt per istam fa●am , &c. Gloss. in S. Joh. cap. 4. quotidiè , daily with them that are without , Christ enters by the woman , that is the Church , and they believe by that fame which she gives , &c. But when they come to hear Christ himself , they believe his word , before the words of the Woman . For when they have once found Christ , † † Ibid. Plus verbis Christi in Scriptur â credit , quàm Ecclesiae testificanti . Quia propter illam jam credit Ecclesiae . Et si ipsa quidem contraria Scripture diceret , ipsi non crederet , &c. Prima● fidem tribuamus Scripturis Canonicis , secundam , sub ista , Definitionibus & Consuetudinibus Ecclesiae Catholicae , post istas studiosis viris non sub poe● a perfidiae , sed proterviae , &c. Walden . D●ct . Fid. To. 1. L. 2. Art. 2. c. 23. Nu. 9. they do more believe his words in Scripture , than they do the Church , which testifies of him ; because then propter illam , for the Scripture they believe the Church : And if the Church should speak contrary to the Scripture , they would not believe it . Thus the School taught then ; and thus the Gloss commented then ; And when men have tired themselves , hither they must come . The Key , that lets men in to the Scriptures , even to this knowledge of them , That they are the Word of God , is the Tradition of the Church : but when they are in , ‖ ‖ In sacr â Scriptur â Ipse immediatè loquitur fidelibus . Ibid. They hear Christ himself immediately speaking in Scripture to the Faithful : * * S. John 10. 4. And his sheep do not only hear , but know his voice . And then here 's no vicious Circle indeed of proving the Scripture by the Church , and then round about , the Church by the Scripture . Only distinguish the Times , and the Conditions of men , and all is safe . For a Beginner in the Faith , or a Weakling , or a Doubter about it , begins at Tradition , and proves Scripture by the Church : But a man strong and grown up in the Faith , and understandingly conversant in the Word of God , proves the Church by the Scripture ; And then upon the matter , we have a double Divine Testimonie , altogether Infallible , to confirm unto us , That Scripture is the Word of God . The first is the Tradition of the Church of the Apostles themselves , who delivered immediately to the world , the Word of Christ . The other , the Scripture it self , but after it hath received this Testimonie . And into these we do , and may safely Resolve our Faith . * * Quod autem credimus posterioribus , circa quos non apparent virtutes Divinae , hoc est , Quia non praedicant al●a , quàm quae illi in Scriptis certissimis reliquerunt . Que constat per medios in nullo fuisse vitiata ex consenstone concordi in eis omnium succedentium usque ad tempora nostra . Hen. à Gand. Sum. P. 1. A. 9. q. 3. As for the Tradition of after-Ages , in , and about which Miracles and Divine Power were not so evident , we believë them ( by Gandavo's full Confession ) because they do not preach other things than those former ( the Apostles ) left in scriptis certissimis , in most certain Scripture . And it appears by men in the middle Ages , that these writings were vitiated in nothing , by the concordant consent in them of all succeeders , to our own time .

Num. 33 And now by this time it will be no hard thing to reconcile the Fathers , which seem to speak differently in no few places , both one from another , and the same from themselves , touching Scripture and Tradition ; And that as well in this Point , to prove Scripture to be the Word of God , as for concordant Exposition of Scripture in all things else . When therefore the Fathers say , † † Scriptur . as babemus ex Traditione . S. Cyril . Hier. Catech. 4. Multa que non inveniuntur in Literis Apostolorum , &c. nonnisi ab illis tradita & commendata creduntur . S. Aug. 2. de Baptism . contra D●●at . c. 7. We have the Scriptures by Tradition , or the like ; either They mean the Tradition of the Apostles themselves delivering it ; and there , when it is known to be such , we may resolve our Faith . Or if they speak of the Present Church , then they mean , that the Tradition of it , is that by which we first receive the Scripture , as by an according Means to the Prime Tradition . But because it is not simply Divine , we cannot resolve our Faith into it , nor settle our Faith upon it , till it resolve it self into the Prime Tradition of the Apostles , or the Scripture , or both ; and there we rest with it . And you cannot shew an ordinary consent of Fathers : Nay can you , or any of your Quarter , shew any one Father of the Church , Greek , or Latine , that ever said , We are to resolve our Faith , that Scripture is the Word God , into the Tradition of the present Church ? And again , when the Fathers say , we are to rely upon Scripture * * Non aliundè scientia Coelestium . S. Hilar ▪ l. 4. de Trinit. Si Angelus de Coelo annanciaverit praeterquam quod in Scripturis , &c. S. Aug. L. 3. cont. Petil. c. 6. only , they are never to be understood with Exclusion of Tradition , in what causes soever it may be had , † † Quùm sit perfectus Scripturarum Canon , sibique ad omnia satis superque sufficiat , &c. Vin. Lir. contra Haeres . c. 2. And if it be sibi ad omnia , then to this , to prove it self , at least after Tradition hath prepared us to receive it . Not but that the Scripture is abundantly sufficient , in , and to it self for all things , but because it is deep , and may be drawn into different senses , and so mistaken , if any man will presume upon his own strength , and go single without the Church .

Num. 34 To gather up whatsoever may seem scattered in this long Discourse to prove , That Scripture is the Word of God , I shall now in the Last place put all together , that so the whole state of the Question may the better appear .

First then , I shall desire the Reader to consider , that every Pun. 1. Rational Science requires some Principles quite without its own Limits , which are not proved in that Science , but presupposed . Thus Rhetorick presupposes Grammar , and Musick Arithmetick . Therefore it is most reasonable that ‖ ‖ Omnis Scientia praesupponit fidem aliquam . S. Prosper . in Psalm . 123. And S. Cyril . Hierosol . Ca●ches . 5. shews how all things in the world do fide consistere . Therefore most unreasonable to deny that to Divinity , which all Sciences , nay all things challenge : Namely , some things to be presupposed , and believed . Theology should be allowed to have some Principles also , which she proves not , but presupposes . And the chiefest of these , is , That the Scriptures are of Divine Authority .

Secondly , that there is a great deal of difference in the Manner Pun. 2. of confirming the Principles of Divinity , and those of any other Art or Science whatsoever . For the Principles of all other Sciences do finally resolve , either into the Conclusions of some Higher Science ; or into those Principles which are per se nota , known by their own light , and are the Grounds and Principles of all Science . And this is it , which properly makes them Sciences , because they proceed with such strength of Demonstration , as forces Reason to yeeld unto them . But the Principles of Divinity resolve not into the Grounds of Natural Reason ( For then there would be no room for Faith , but all would be either Knowledge or Vision ) but into the Maximes of Divine Knowledge supernatural . And of this we have just so much light , and no more , than God hath revealed unto us in the Scripture .

Thirdly , That though the Evidence of these Supernatural Pun. 3. Truths , which Divinity teaches , appears not so manifest as that of the Natural ; * * Si vis credere manifestis , invisibilibus , magis quàm visibilibius oportet credere . Litet dictum sit admirabile , verum est , &c. S. Chrysostom . Hom. 46. ad Pop. And there he proves it . Aliae Scientiae certitudinem baben● ex Naturali Lumint Rationis Humane , que decipi potest : Hec autem ex Lumine Divin● Scientiae , quae decipi non potest . Thom. p. 1. q. 1. ● . 5. c. yet they are in themselves much more sure and infallible than they . For they proceed immediately from God , that Heavenly Wisdom , which being the fountain of ours , must needs infinitely precede ours , both in Nature and excellence . He that teacheth man knowledge , shall not be know ? * * Psal. 94. 10. Our old English Translation reads it , Shall not be punish ? That is , shall not he know when , and why , and how to punish ? Psal. 94. And therefore , though we reach not the Order of their Deductions , nor can in this life come to the vision of them , yet we yeeld as full and firm Assent , not only to the Articles , but to all the Things rightly deduced from them , as we do to the most evident Principles of Natural Reason . This Assent is called Faith . And Faith being of things Heb. 11. 1. not seen , Heb. 11. † † Si sit Ratio convincens , & propter eam quis credat , ali●s non crediturus , tollitur meritum fidei . Biel. 3. D. 25. q. unic. fi●e . Non est dicendus credere , cujus judicium subigitur , aut cogitur , &c. Scapl . Triplicet . c●ntr● Whitaker , cap. 6. p. 64. would quite lose its honour , nay it self , if it met with sufficient Grounds in Natural Reason , whereon to stay it self . For Faith is a mixed Act of the Will and the Understanding , and the ‖ ‖ Fides non fit in nobis nisi volentibus . Tolet in . S. Joh. 16. Annot. 33. Et qui voluerunt , crediderunt . S. Aug. Se●● . 60. de verb. Dom. c 5. Fides Actus est , non solius Intellectus , sed etiam Voluntatis , quae cogi non potest . I●● magis Voluntatis quàm Intellectus , quatenus illa Operationis principium est , & Assensum ( qui propriè Actus fidei est ) sola elicit . Nec ab Intellectu Volu● 〈◊〉 , ●●d à Voluntate Intellectus in Actu fidei determinatur . Stap. Triolic . cont. Whitak . c. 6. p. 64. Crodere enim est Actus Intellectus determinati ad unum ex Imperio Voluntatis . Tho. 2. 2. q. 4 A●● . c. Non potest dart aliquis Assensus Fidei , quicunque ille ●it , qui non dependet in suis Causis mediatè vel immediatè ab ●●tu Voluntatis . A●● . in 3. Sent. D. 24. Conclus . 6. Dub. 4. And S. Aug. says : Fidei locum esse Cor. Tract. 52. in S. Job . Where the Heart is put for the whole Soul , which equally comprehends both the Will and the Understanding . And so doth Bi●● ▪ also , in 3. Sent. D. 25. q. unic. Art. 1. F. Will inclines the Understanding to yeeld full approbation to that whereof it sees not full proof . Not but that there is most full proof of them , but because the main Grounds which prove them , are concealed from our view , and folded up in the unrevealed Counsel of God , God in Christ resolving to bring mankind to their last happiness by Faith , and not by knowledge , that so the weakest among men may have their way to blessedness open . And certain it is , that many weak men believe themselves into Heaven , and many over-knowing Christians lose their way thither , while they will believe no more than they can clearly know . In which pride and vanity of theirs they are left , and have these things hid from them , * * Mat. 11. 25. S. Matth. 11.

Fourthly , That the Credit of the Scripture , the Book in Pun. 4. which the Principles of Faith are written , ( as of other writings also ) depends not upon the subservient Inducing Cause , that leads us to the first knowledge of the Author , which leader here is the Church ; but upon the Author himself , and the Opinion we have of his sufficiencie , which here is the Holy Spirit of God , whose Pen-men the Prophets and Apostles were . And therefore the Mysteries of Divinity contained in this Book ; As the Incarnation of our Saviour ; The Resurrection of the dead , and the like , cannot finally be resolved into the sole Testimony of the Church , who is but a subservient Cause , to lead to the knowledge of the Author , but into the Wisdom and Sufficiencie of the Author , who being Omnipotent , and Omniscient , must needs be Infallible .

Fifthly , That the Assurance we have of the Pen-men of the Pun. 5. Scriptures , the Holy Prophets and Apostles , is as great , as any can be had of any Humane Authors of like Antiquity . For it is morally as evident to any Pagan , that S. Matthew and S. Paul writ the Gospel and Epistles which bear their Names , as that Cicero or Seneca wrote theirs . But that the Apostles were divinely inspired , whilst they writ them , and that they are the very Word of God expressed by them , this hath ever been a matter of Faith in the Church , and was so , even while the Apostles themselves * * The Apostles indeed they knew , for they had clear Revelation : They to whom they preached , might believe , but they could not know without the like Revelation . So S. Job . 19. 35. He that saw , knows that he says true , that you , which saw not , might believe . D●●s is Prophe●●● & sic in Apostolis ) quos immediatè illuminabat , causabat evidentiam . Jac. Almain . in 3. Sent. Dis. 24. q. unic ● . Conclus . 6. But for the refu●●e of men , 't is no more , but as Thomas hath it : Oportet quod credatur Authoritati eorum , quibus Revelatio facta est . Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 8. ad 8. lived , and was never a matter of Evidence and Knowledge , at least as Knowledge is opposed to Faith . Nor could it at any time then be more Demonstratively proved than now . I say , not scientifice , not Demonstratively . For , were the Apostles living , and should they tell us , that they spake , and writ the very Oracles of God : yet this were but their own Testimony of themselves , and so not alone able to enforce Belief on others . And for their Miracles , though they were very Great Inducements of Belief , yet were neither they Evident and Convincing Proofs , † † Non est ●●idens vel ista esse vera miracula : vel ista fieri ad illam Veritatem comprobandam . Ja. Almain . i●● . 〈◊〉 . D. 24. q. un●c● Concl. 6. Therefore the Miracles which Christ and his Apostles did , were fully sufficient to beget Faith to Assent , but not Evidence to Convince . alone and of themselves . Both because , There may be counterfeit Miracles : And because true ones are neither ‖ ‖ Cautos nos fecit Sponsus , quia & Miraculis decipi non debe●us . S. Aug. T. 13. in S. Joh. And he that says ●●e ought not to be deceived , acknowledges that we may be deceived even by Miracles . And Arguments which can deceive , are not sufficient to Convince . Though they be sometimes too full of efficacie to pervert . And so plainly Almain , out of Ocham . Nunquam acquiritur ●videntia per Medium quod 〈◊〉 ●● general falsum assensum , sicut ver●● . Ja. Alma . in 3. Sent. Di. 24. q. unic. Concl. ● . And therefore that Learned Roman Catholiks , who tells us , the Apost●●● Miracles made it evident , that their Doctrine was true and Divine , went too far . Credible they made it , but not Evident . And therefore he is after forced to confess , That the Soul sometimes assents not to the Miracles , but in great timidity , which cannot stand with clear Evidence . And after again , That the Soul may renounce the Doctrine formerly confirmed by Miracles , unless some inward and supernatural Light be given , &c. And neither can this possibly stand with Evidence . And therefore Bellarmine goes no farther than this : Miracula esse 〈◊〉 , & efficacia ad 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . L. 4. de Nobis 〈◊〉 . c. 14. ● . 1. To induce and perswade , but not to Convince . And Thomas will not grant so much , for he says expresse : 〈◊〉〈◊〉 est sufficient caus● inducens Fidem . Quia videntium unum & idem Miraculum , quidam credunt , & quidam non . Tho. ● . 2. q. 6. A. 1. c. And 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Rom. 10. 15. is down-right at Nulla fides , est habenda signo . ●xaminand● sunt , &c. Anastasius 〈◊〉〈◊〉 , apud 〈◊〉 ad A● . 36●● 〈◊〉 ●1 . Non sunt necessaria signa vera fidei , &c. Suarez , 〈◊〉 . Fidei Cathol. L. 1. cap. 7. Num. 3. Infallible nor Inseparable Marks of Truth in Doctrine . Not Infallible : For they may be Marks of false Doctrine in the highest degree . * * Deut. 〈◊〉 . 1 , 2 , 3. 2 Thes. 2. 9. S. Marc. 13. 22. Deut. 13. Not proper and Inseparable : For † † 〈◊〉 Virtutum alteri datur , 1 ▪ Cor. 1● . 10. ( to one and another , he saith , not to all . ) Daemoniâ fu●●r● , Mortuos 〈◊〉 , &c. dedit quibusdam Discip●●i● 〈◊〉 , quibusdam 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ▪ ( That is , to do Miracles . ) 〈◊〉 Aug. Serm. 22. ●t Verbis Apost. c. ● . all which wrote by Inspiration , did not confirm their Doctrine by Miracles . For we do not find that David or Solomon , with some other of the Prophets did any , neither were any wrought by S. John the Baptist , * * S. Joh. 10. 41. S. Joh. 10. So , as Credible Signs they were , and are still of as much force to us , as 't is possible for things on the credit of Relation to be : For the Witnesses are many , and such as spent their lives in making good the Truth , which they saw . But that the Workers of them were Divinely and Infallibly inspired in that which they Preacht and Writ , was still to the ‖ ‖ Here it may be observed how warily A. C. carries himself . For when he hath said , That a clear Revelation was made to the Apostles , which is most true ; And so the Apostles knew that which they taught simplicitèr à priori , most Demonstratively from the Prime Cause , God himself : Then he adds , p. 51. I say , clear in attestante . That is , the Revelation of this Truth was clear in the Apostles that witnessed it . But to make it knowledge in the Auditors , the same , or like Revelation , and as clear must be made to them . For they could have no other knowing Assurance ; Credible they might , and had . So A. C. is wary there , but comes not home to the Business , and so might have held his peace . For the Question is not , what clear Evidence the Apostles had ? but what Evidence they had , which heard them ? Hearers a matter of Faith , and no more evident by the light of Humane Reason to men that lived in those Days , than to us now . For had that been Demonstrated , or been clear ( as Prime Principles are ) in its own light , both they and we had apprehended all the Mysteries of Divinity by Knowledge , not by Faith . But this is most apparent was not . For had the Prophets or Apostles been ordered by God to make this Demonstratively , or Intuitively by Discourse or Vision appear as clear to their Auditors , as to themselves it did , that whatsoever they taught was Divine and Infallible Truth , all men which had the true use of Reason , must have been forced to yeeld to their Doctrine . * * Esay 53. 1. Esay could never have been at Domine quis ? Lord who hath believed our Report ? Esay 53. Nor † † Jer. 20. 7. Jeremy at Domine factus sum , Lord I am in derision daily , Jer. 20. Nor could any of S. Pauls Auditors have mocked at him ( as some of them did ) ‖ ‖ Acts 17. 32. And had Zedechiah and the people seen it as clearly as Jeremy himself did , that the word he spake was Gods word , and Infallible , Jerusalem , for ought we know , had not been laid desolate by the Chaldean . But because they could not see this by the way of knowledge , and would not believe it by way of Faith , they , and that City perished together . Jer. 38. 17. Act. 17. for Preaching the Resurrection , if they had had as full a view as S. Paul himself had in the Assurance , which God gave of it in , and by the Resurrection of Christ , vers . 31. But the way of Knowledge was not that which God thought fittest for mans Salvation . For Man having sinned by Pride , God thought fittest to humble him at the very root of the Tree of Knowledge , and make him deny his understanding , and submit to Faith , or hazard his happiness . The Credible Object all the while , that is , the Mysteries of Religion , and the Scripture which contains them is Divine and Infallible , and so are the Pen-men of them by Revelation . But we , and all our Forefathers , the Hearers and Readers of them , have neither * * Nemo pius , nisi qui Scripturae credit . S. Aug. L. 26. cont. Fanstum , c. 6. Now no Man believes the Scripture , that doth not believe that it is the Word of God . I say , which doth not believe , I do not say , which doth not know . Oportet quod Credatur Authoritati eorum quibus Revelatio facta est . Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 8. ad secundum . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 &c. Quod vero Animam habemus , unde manifestum ? Si enim Visibilibus credere velis , & de Deo , & de Angelis , & de meute , & de Animâ dubitabis : & sic tibi omnia veritatis dogmata deperibunt . Et certé si manifestis credere velis , Invisibilious magis quàm Visibilibus credere oportet . Licet enim admirabile sit dictum , verum tamen , & apud mentem habentes valde certum , vel in confesso . Ex homil. 13. S. Chrysost. in S. Mat. To. 1. Edit. Fronto : Paris . 1636. knowledge , nor vision of the Prime Principles in , or about them , but * * Nemo pius , nisi qui Scripturae credit . S. Aug. L. 26. cont. Fanstum , c. 6. Now no Man believes the Scripture , that doth not believe that it is the Word of God . I say , which doth not believe , I do not say , which doth not know . Oportet quod Credatur Authoritati eorum quibus Revelatio facta est . Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 8. ad secundum . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 &c. Quod vero Animam habemus , unde manifestum ? Si enim Visibilibus credere velis , & de Deo , & de Angelis , & de me●te , & de Animâ dubitabis : & sic tibi omnia veritatis dogmata deperibunt . Et certé si manifestis credere velis , Invisibilious magis quàm Visibilibus credere oportet . Licet enim admirabile sit dictum , verum tamen , & apud mentem habentes valde certum , vel in confesso . Ex homil. 13. S. Chrysost. in S. Mat. To. 1. Edit. Fronto : Paris . 1636. Faith only . And the Revelation , which was clear to them , is not so to us , nor therefore the Prime Tradition it self delivered by them .

Sixthly , That hence it may be gathered , that the Assent , which Pun. 6. we yeeld to this main Principle of Divinity , That the Scripture is the Word of God , is grounded upon no Compelling , or Demonstrative Ratiocination , but relies upon the strength of Faith , more than any other Principle whatsoever . † † And this is the Ground of that which I said before , §. 15. Nu. 1. That the Scripture only , and not any unwritten Tradition , was the Foundation of our Faith . Namely , when the Authority of Scripture is first yeelded unto . For all other necessary Points of Divinity , may by undeniable Discourse be inferred out of Scripture it self once admitted : but this , concerning the Authority of Scripture not possibly : But must either be proved by Revelation , which is not now to be expected : Or presupposed and granted as manifest in it self , like the Principles of natural knowledge , which Reason alone will never Grant : Or by Tradition of the Church , both Prime and Present , with all other Rational Helps , preceding , or accompanying the internal Light in Scripture it self ; which though it give Light enough for Faith to believe , yet Light enough it gives not to be a convincing Reason , and proof for knowledge . And this is it , which makes the very entrance into Divinity , inaccessible to those men , who standing high in the Opinion of their own wisdom , will believe nothing , but that which is irrefragably proved from Rational Principles . For as Christ requires a Denial of a mans self , that he may be able to follow him , S. Luke 9. So as great a part as any of this Denial of his Whole-self S. Luke 9. 23. ( for so it must be ) is the denial of his Understanding , and the composing of the unquiet search of this Grand Inquisitor into the Secrets of Him that made it , and the over-ruling the doubtfulness of it by the fervency of the ‖ ‖ Intellectus Credentis determinatur per Voluntatem , non per Rationem . Tho. 2. 2. q. 2. A. 1. ad tertium . And what power the Will hath in Case of mens Believing , or not Believing , is manifest , Jer. 44. But this is spoken of the Will compared with the Understanding only , leaving the Operations of Grace free over both . Will .

Seventhly , That the knowledge of the Supreme Cause of Pun. 7. all ( which is God ) is most remote , and the most difficult thing Reason can have to do with . The Quod sit , That there is a God , b b Co●●n ●ijis enim sententia est Patrum & Theologorum aliorum , demonstrari posse naturali ratione Deum esse ; Sed à posteriori & per effectus . Sic Tho. p. 1. q. 2. A. 2. Et Damasc. I. 1 Ortho. Fid. c. 3. & Almain . in 3. sent. D. 24. q. 1. But what may be demonstrated by natural reason , by natural light may the same be known . And so the Apostle himself , Rom. 1. 20. Invisibilia Dei a Creaturâ mundi per ea quae facta sunt , intellecta conspiciuntut . And so Calvin most clearly , I. 1. Instit. c. ● . §. 1. Aperire oculos nequeunt , quin aspicere eum coguntur , though Bellarmine would needs be girding at him , L. 4. de Grat. & Lib. Arbit . cap. 2. Videtur autem & Ratio iis quae apparent attestari : Omnes enim homines de Diis ( ut ille loquitur ) habent existimationem , Arist. I. 1. de Coelo , T. 22. blear-eyed Reason can see . But the c c Damasc. L. 1. Ortho. Fid. c. 4. Quid sit , what that God is , is infinitely beyond all the fathoms of Reason . He is a Light indeed , but such as no mans Reason can come at for the Brightness . d d 1 Tim. 6. 16. Et u● Vestiglum sic accedendi relinquit . S. Aug. nisi dugeas imaginatione cogitationis lucem solis innumerabiliter vel quid aliud , &c. ● . 8. de Trin. c. 2. Solus modus accedendi , Preces sunt . Boet. de Consolat. Philos. L. 5. prosa . 3. 1 Tim. 6. If any thing therefore be attainable in this kind , it must be by e e Prates Scientias Philosophicas ; necesse est ut ponatur alia Scientia divinit●s revelata de iis quae hominis captum excedunt . Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 1. Revelation ; And that must be from Himself : for none can Reveal , but f f And therefore Biel is express , That God could not reveal any thing that is to come , nisi illud esset ● Deo praescitum seu praevisum ( i. e. unless God did fully comprehend that which he doth reveal ) Bi●l in 3. sent. D. 23. q. 2. A. 1. he that Comprehends . And g g

Nullus Intellectus Creatus videndo Deum , potest cognoscere Omnia que Deus facit , vel potest facere . Hoc enim esset Comprehendere ejus virtutem , &c. Tho. p. 1. q. 12. A. 8. C.

Ad Argumentum : Quod Deus ut Speculum est : Et quod omnia quae fieri possunt , in eo resplendent . Respondet Thom. Quod non est necessarium , quod videns speculum , omnia in speculo videat , nisi speculum vtsu suo comprehendat . Tho. p. 1. q. 12. A. 8. ad 2. ( Now no man can comprehend this Glass which is God Himself . )

none doth , or can comprehend God , but Himself . And when he doth Reveal , yet he is no farther discernable , than h h Deus enim est Speculum voluntarium revelans quae & quot vult alicui beato : non est Speculum naturaliter repraesentans omnia . Biel. Suppl . in 4. Sent. D. 49. q. 3. propos . 3. Himself pleases . Now since i i For if Reason well put to its search did not find this out , how came Arist. to affirm this by rational disquisition ? 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. Restat , ut mens sola extrinsecùs acc●dat , eaque sola divina sit , nihil enim cum ejus Actione communicat Actio corporalis . Arist. l. 2. de gen. Anim. c. 3. This cannot be spoken of the Soul , were it mortal . And therefore I must needs be of Paulus Benius his opinion , who says plainly , and proves it too , Turpiter affixam à quibusdam Aristottli Mortalitatis Animae Opinionem . Benius in Timaeum Platonis , Decad. 2 ● . L. 3. Reason teaches , that the Soul of man is immortal , and k k For if Reason did not dictate this also , whence is it that Aristotle disputes of the way and means of attaining it ? L. 1. Moral . c. 9. And takes on him to prove , That Felicity is rather an Honourable than a Commendable thing , c. 12. And after all this , he adds , Deo beata tota vita est , hominibus autem catenus , quatenus similitudo quaedam ejusmodi Operationis ipsis inest , Arist. L. 10. Moral . c. 8. capable of Felicity . And since that Felicity consists in the Contemplation of the highest Cause , which again is God himself . And since Christ therein Confirms that Dictate , that mans eternal Happiness is to know God , and Him whom he hath sent , S. l l S. John 17. 3. Ultima Beatitudo hominis Consistit in quadam : supernaturali visione Dei . Ad hanc autem visionem Homo . ●●r●●●gere non potest , nisi per modum Addiscentis à Deo Doctore , Omnis qui audit à Patre & didicit . S. John 6. 45. Thom. 2. 2. q. 2. A. 3. in c. Joh. 17. And since nothing can put us into the way of attaining to that Contemplation , but some Revelation of Himself , and of the way to Himself : I say , since all this is so , It cannot reasonably be thought by any prudent man , that the All-wise God should create man with a desire of Felicity ; and then leave him utterly destitute of all Instrumental Helps to make the Attainment possible : since * * Deus & Natura nihil frustra faciunt , Arist. ● . 1. de Coelo . T. 32. Frustrà autem est quod non potest habere suum usunt , Thom. ibid. God and Nature do nothing but for an end . And Help there can be none sufficient , but by Revelation . And once grant me that Revelation is necessary , and then I will appeal to Reason it self , and that shall prove abundantly one of these two : That either , there was never any such Revelation of this kind from the worlds beginning to this day ; And that will put the frustrà upon God in point of mans Felicitie : Or , that the Scriptures which we now embrace , as the Word of God , is that Revelation ; And that 's it we Christians labour to make good against all Atheism , Prophaneness , and Infidelity .

Last of all , To prove that the Book of God which we honour Pun. 8. as His Word , is this necessary Revelation of God and his Truth , which must , and is alone able , to lead us in the way to our eternal Blessedness ( or else the world hath none ) comes in a Cloud of witnesses . Some for the Infidel , and some for the Believer . Some for the Weak in Faith , and some for the Strong . And some for all . For then first comes in the Tradition of the Church , the present Church ; so 't is no Heretical , or Schismatical Belief . Then the Testimony of former Ages ; so 't is no New Belief . Then the consent of Times ; so 't is no Divided or partial Belief . Then the Harmony of the Prophets , and them fulfilled ; so 't is not a * * 2 Pet. 1. 1● Devised , but a forespoken Belief . Then the success of the Doctrine contained in this Book ; so 't is not a Belief stifled in the Cradle ; but it hath spread through the world in despite of what the world could do against it ; And increased from weak , and unlikely Beginnings , to incredible Greatness . Then the Constancie of this Truth ; so 't is no Moon-Belief : For in the midst of the worlds ▪ Changes , it hath preserved its Creed entire through many generations . Then , that there is nothing Carnal in the Doctrine ; so 't is a Chast Belief . And all along it hath gained , kept , and exercised more power upon the minds of men , both learned and unlearned , in the increase of vertue , and repression of vice , than any Moral Philosophy , or Legal Policie that ever was . Then comes the inward Light and Excellencie of the Text it self ; and so 't is no dark , or dazling Belief . And 't is an Excellent Text : For see the riches of Natural knowledge , which are stored up there , as well as Supernatural . Consider how things quite above Reason consent with things Reasonable . Weigh it well what Majesty lies there hid under Humility : * * Quasi quidam fluvius est , planus , & Altus , in quo & Agnus ambulet , & Elephas natet , S. Greg. Praesat . in Lib. Moralium , c. 4. What Depth there is with a Perspicuity unimitable : What † † In Lege Domini voluntas ejus , Psal. 1. 2. Dulcior super mel & fa●nm , Psal. 18. 11. & passim . Delight it works in the Soul , that is devoutly exercised in it , how the ‖ ‖ Multa dicuntur submissis & bumi repentibus animis , ut aecommodati●s pir humana in Divina consurgant . Multa etiam figuratè , ut studiosa mens , & quaesitis exerceatur utili●s & uberiùs laetetur inven●● S. Aug. de Mor. Ec. Cat. c. 17. Sed nihil sub spirituali sensu continetur . Fidei necessarium , quod Scriptura per Literalem sensum alicubi manifestè non tradat . Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 10. ad 1. Sublimist wits find in it enough to amaze them ; while the ‖ simplest want not enough to direct them . And then we shall not wonder , if ( with the assistance of * * Credimus , &c. sicut ob alia multa certiora Argument● quam est Testimonium Ecclesiae ) tum propter hoc potiffsmum , q●òd Spiritus Sanctus nobis intùs has esse Dei voces persuadeat . Whitaker . Disput. de Sac. Scrip. Controvers. 1. q. 3. c. 8. Gods Spirit , who alone works Faith and Belief of the Scriptures , and their Divine Authority , as well as other Articles ) we grow up into a most Infallible Assurance , such an Assurance , as hath made many lay down their lives for this Truth : such , as that , † † Gal. 1. 8. Though an Angel from Heaven should Preach unto us another Gospel , we would not believe Him , or it . No ; though we should see as great , and as many Miracles done over again to disswade us from it , as were at first to win the world to it . To which firmness of Assent by the Operation of Gods Spirit , the Will confers as much , or more strength , than the Understanding , Clearness , the whole Assent being an Act of Faith , and not of Knowledge . And therefore the Question should not have been asked of me by F. How I knew ? But , upon what Motives I did believe Scripture to be the word of God ? And I would have him take heed , lest hunting too close after a way of Knowledge , he lose the way of Faith , and teach other men to lose it too .

So then the Way lies thus ( as far as it appears to me ) The Pun. 9. Credit of Scripture to be Divine Resolves finally into that Faith , which we have touching God Himself , and in the same order . For as that , so this hath Three main Grounds , to which all other are Reducible . The first is , the Tradition of the Church : And this leads us to a Reverend perswasion of it . The Second is , The Light of Nature : and this shews us how necessary such a Revealed Learning is , and that no other way it can be had : ‖ ‖ Cum Fides insallibili veritati innitatur : Et ideo cum impossibile sit de vero demonstrari Contrarium 1 sequitur omnes Probationes qua contra fidem inducuntur , non posse esse Demonstrationes , sed solubilia Argumenta . Tho. p. 1. q. A. 1. 8. c. Nay more , that all Proofs brought against any Point of Faith , neither are , nor can be Demonstrations , but soluble Arguments . The Third is , The light of the Text it self ; in Conversing wherewith we meet with the * * Fidei ultima Resolutio est in Deum illuminantem . S. Aug. cont. Fund . c. 14. Spirit of God inwardly inclining our hearts , and sealing the full Assurance of the sufficiencie of all Three unto us . And then , and not before , we are certain , That the Scripture is the Word of God boty by Divine , and by Infallible Proof . But our Certainty is by Faith , and so voluntary , not by Knowledge of such Principles , as in the light of Nature can enforce Assent whether we will or no.

I have said thus much upon this great Occasion , because this Argument is so much pressed , without due respect to Scripture . And I have proceeded in a Synthetical way , to build up the Truth for the benefit of the Church , and the satisfaction of all men Christianly disposed . Whereas had I desired only to rid my hands of these Captious Jesuites ( for certainly this Question was Captiously asked ; ) it had been sufficient to have restored the Question , thus : How do you know the Testimony of the Church ( by which , you say , you know Scripture to be the Word of God ) to be Divine and Infallible ? If they prove it by Scripture ( as all of them do , and as A. C. doth ) how do A. C. p. 53. Et vid. §. 16. N. 28. they know that Scripture to be Scripture ? It is but a Circular Assurance of theirs , by which they found the Churches Infallibility upon the Testimony of the Scripture ; And the Scriptures Infallibility upon the Testimony of the Church : That is upon the Matter , the Churches Infallibility upon the Churches Infallibility . But I labour for edification , not for destruction . And now , by what I have here said , I will weigh my Answer , and his Exception taken against it .

The Bishop said , That the Books of Scripture are Principles to be Supposed , and needed not to be Proved .

§ . 17 Why , but did I say , That this Principle ( The Books of Scripture are the Word of God ) is to be supposed , as needing no Proof at all to a Natural man ? Or to a man newly entring upon the Faith ? yea , or perhaps to a Doubter , or Weakling in the Faith ? Can you think me so weak ? It seems you do . But sure I know , there is a great deal of difference between Ethnicks that deny , and deride the Scripture , and men that are Born in the Church . The first have a farther way about to this Principle ; The other in their very Christian Education suck it in , and are taught so soon as they are apt to learn it , That the Books , commonly called The Bible , or Scripture , are the Word of God . And I dealt with you * * Dixi sicut 〈◊〉 congruebat , ad quem scribebam , S. Aug. l. 1. Retract . c. 13. as with a Christian , though in Errour , while you call Catholike . The Words before spoken by me were , That the Scripture only , not any unwritten Tradition , was the Foundation of Faith . The Question between us , and you is , Whether the Scripture do contain all necessary things of Faith ? Now in this Question , as in all Nature , and Art , the Subject , the Scripture is and must be † † Nor is it such a strange thing to hear that Scripture is such a supposed Principle among Christians . Quod à Scriptura evidenter deducitur , est evidenter verum , suppositis Scripturis . Bellarm. L. 4. de Eccl. Milit. c. 3. ● . 3. supposed . The Quaere between the Roman-Catholicks and the Church of England , being only of the Praedicate , the thing uttered of it , Namely , Whether it contain all Fundamentals of Faith , all Necessaries for Salvation within it ? Now since the Question proposed in very form of Art , proves not , but ‖ ‖ De Subjecto enim queritur semper , non Subjectum ipsum . supposes the Subject , I think I gave a satisfying Answer , That to you , and me , and in this Question , Scripture was a Supposed Principle , and needed no Proof . And I must tell you , that in this Question of the Scriptures perfect Continent , it is against all Art , yea and Equity too , in Reasoning to call for a proof of That here , which must go unavoydably supposed in this Question . And if any man will be so familiar with Impiety , to Question it , it must be tried in a preceding Question , and Dispute by it self . Yet here not you only , but * * L. 4. de verb. Dei , c. 4. §. Quartò necesse est . And the ●esuite here , op●d A , C. p. 49. Bellarmine , and others run quite out of the way to snatch at Advantage .

Against this I read what I had formerly written in my Reply against M. John White : Wherein I plainly shewed , that this Answer was not good , and that no other Answer could be made , but by admitting some Word of God unwritten , to assure us of this Point .

● .

§ . 18 Num. 1 Indeed here you read out of a Book ( which you called your own ) a large Discourse upon this Argument . But surely I so untied the knot of the Argument , that I set you to your Book again . For your self confess , that against this you read what you had formerly written . Well! what ere you read there , certain it is you do a great deal of wrong to M. Hooker * * L. ● . ● . 8. , and my self , that because we call it a Supposed or Presumed Principle among Christians , you should fall by and by into such a † † Whereas Bellarm. says expresly , that in the Controversies between you and us , Non agitur de Metaphysicis subtilit atibus , qu● sine periculo ignorari , & interdum c●●● Laude opp●●nari poss●●● , &c. Bellarm. Praesat . Ope●●●us pr●●●x . ● . 3. Metaphysical Discourse to prove , That that which is a ‖ ‖ His omnibus 〈…〉 est Controversia de Verbo Dei . Neque enim disputari potest , nisi prius in aliquo Communi Principio cum Adversariis 〈…〉 nos & omnes omni●● H●reticos , Verbum Dei esse Regulum fidei , ex quâ de Dogmatibus judicandum sit , esse commune Pri 〈…〉 ab omnibus concessum , 〈…〉 , &c. Bellarm. Praesat . Operib . prafix . §. ult. And if it be Com 〈…〉 Pri 〈…〉 ab omnibus 〈◊〉 , then I hope it must be taken as a thing supposed , or as a Praecognitum in this Dispute between us . Praecognitum , fore-known in Science , must be of such light , that it must be known of , and by it self alone ; and that the Scripture cannot be so known to be the Word of God .

Num. 2 I will not now enter again into that Discourse , having said enough already , how far the Beam , which is very glorious ( especially in some parts of Scripture ) gives light to prove it self . You see neither Hooker , nor I , nor the Church of England ( for ought I know ) leave the Scripture alone to manifest it self , by the light , which it hath in it self . No ; but when the present Church hath prepared , and led the way , like a preparing Morning-Light to Sun-shine ; then indeed we settle for our Direction , yet not upon the first opening of the morning-light , but upon the Sun it self . Nor will I make needless enquiry , how far , and in what manner a Praecognitum , or Supposed Principle in any Science , may be proved in a Higher , to which that is subordinate ; or accepted for a Prime . Nor how it may in Divinity , where Prae , as well as Post-cognita , things fore , as well as after-known , are matters , and under the manner of Faith , and not of Science strictly . Nor whether a Praecognitum , a presupposed Principle in Faith , which rests upon Divine Authority , must needs have as much , and equal Light to Natural Reason , as Prime Principles have in Nature , while they rest upon Reason . Nor whether it may justly be denied to have sufficient Light , because not equal . Your own School * * Colligitur apert● ex Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A●g : ad 1. Et Articulotum Fidei veritas non potest nobis esse evidens absolute . Bellar. L. 4. de Eccles. Mit. c. 3. §. 3. grants , That in us , which are the Subjects both of Faith and Knowledge , and in regard of the Evidence given in unto us , there is less Light , less Evidence in the Principles of Faith , than in the Principles of Knowledge , upon which there can be no doubt . But I think the School will never grant , That the Principles of Faith ( even this in Question ) have not sufficient Evidence . And you ought not to do , as you did , without any Distinction , or any Limitation , deny a Praecognitum , or Prime Principle in the Faith ; because it answers not in all things to the Prime Principles in Science , in their Light and Evidence ; a thing in it self directly against Reason .

Num. 3 Well , though I do none of this , yet first I must tell you , that A. C. here steps in again , and tells me , That though a Praecognitum in Faith need not be so clearly known , as a Praecognitum in Science , yet there must be this proportion between them , that , whether it be in Science , or in Faith , the Praecognitum , or thing supposed as known , must be prius cognitum , first known , and not need another thing pertaining to that Faith , or Knowledge , to be known before it . But the Scripture ( saith he ) needs Tradition to go before it , and introduce the knowledge of it . Therefore the Scripture is not to be supposed , as a Praecognitum , and a thing fore-known . Truly I am sorry to see in a man very learned such wilful mistakes . For A. C. cannot but perceive , by that which I have clearly laid down † † §. 17 & 18. N● . 2. before , That I intended not to speak precisely of a Praecognitum in this Argument . But when I said , Scriptures were Principles to be supposed ; I did not , I could not intend , they were prius cognitae , known before Tradition ; since I confess every where , That Tradition introduces the knowledge of them . But my meaning is plain ; That the Scriptures are and must be Principles supposed , before you can dispute this Question ; ‖ ‖ And my immediate Words in the Conference , upon which the ●esuite a●●ed , How I knew Scripture to be Scripture ? were ( as the ●esuite himself relates it , apud ● . c. p●● ▪ 8. ) That the Scripture only , not any unwritten Tradition ▪ was the Foundation of our Faith . Now the Scripture cannot be the only F●●●dation of F●●●h , if it contain not all things necessary to Salvation ; Which the Church of Rome denying against all Antiquity , makes it now become a Question . And in regard of this ▪ my Answer was , That the Scriptures are and must be Principles supposed , and praecognit●● , before the handling of this Question . Whether the Scriptures contain in them all things necessary to salvation . Before which Question it must necessarily be supposed and granted on both sides , That the Scriptures are the Word of God . For if they be not , 't is instantly out of all Question , that They cannot include all Necessaries to Salvation . So 't is a Praecognitum , not to Tradition ( as A. C. would cunningly put upon the Cause ) but to the whole Question of the Scriptures sufficiencie . And yet if he could tie me to a Praecognitum in this very Question , and proveable in a Superior Science ; I think I shall go very near to prove it in the next Paragraph , and intreat A. C. to confess it too .

Num. 4 And now having told A. C. this , I must secondly follow him a little farther . For I would fain make it appear as plainly , as in such a difficulty it can be made , what wrong he doth Truth and himself in this Case . And it is the common fault of them all . For when the Protestants answer to this Argument ( which , as I have shew'd , can properly have no place in the Question between us about Tradition ) † † Hook . L. 3. §. 8. they which grant this as a Praecognitum , a thing fore-known ( as also I do ) were neither ignorant , nor forgetful , That things presupposed , as already known in a Science , are of two sorts . For either they are plain and fully manifest in their own Light : or they are proved and granted already , some former knowledge having made them Evident . This Principle then , The Scriptures are the Oracles of God , we cannot say is clear , and fully manifest to all men simply , and in self-Light , for the Reasons before given . Yet we say , after Tradition hath been our Introduction , the Soul that hath but ordinary Grace added to Reason , may discern Light sufficient to resolve our Faith , that the Sun is there . This Principle then being not absolutely , and simply evident in it self , is presumed to be taught us otherwise . And if otherwise , then it must be taught in and by some superior Science , to which Theology is subordinate . Now men may be apt to think out of Reverence , That Divinity can have no Science above it . But your own School teaches me that it hath . * * Hoc modo sacra Doctrina est Scientia ; quia procedit ex Principiis notis Lumine superioris Scientiae , qu● scilic●● est Scientia Dei & Beatorum . Tho. p. 1. q. 1. a. 2. And what says A. C. now to this of Aquinas ? Is it not clear in him , that this Principle , The Scripturis are the word of God , of Divine and most infallible Credit , is a Praecognitum in the knowledge of Divinity , and proveable in a superior Science , namely , the Knowledge of God , and 〈◊〉 ●lessed in Heaven ? Yes ; so clear , that ( as I told you he would ) A. C. cons●ll●● it , p. 51. But he adds ? That because no man ordinarily sees this Proof , therefore we must go either to Christ , who saw it cle 〈…〉 Of to the Apostles , to whom it was clearly revealed ; or to them , who by Succession received it from the prime Seers . So now , because Christ is ascended , and the Apostles gone into the number of the 〈◊〉 , and made in a higher Degree partakers of their knowledge ; therefore we must now only go unto their Successors , and borrow light from the Tradition of the present Church . For that we must do ; And 〈◊〉 so far well . ●●t that we must rely upon this Tradition , as Divine , and Infallible , and able to breed in us 〈◊〉 , and inf●●●●ble Pa●th , as A. C. adds , p. 51 , 52. is a Proposition , which in the times of the Pri 〈…〉 Church would have been accounted very dangerous , as indeed it is . For I would fain know , why ●e●●●ing too 〈◊〉 upon Tradition may not mislead Christians , as well as it did the Jews . But 〈◊〉 , with 〈…〉 , Traditionis favore Legis praec●pta transgressi sunt . Can. 14. in ● . Mat. Yet to this 〈◊〉 are They of 〈◊〉 now grown , Th●● the Traditions of the present Church are infallible : And by out 〈…〉 the Truth , told many after them . And as it is Jer. 5. 31. The Prophets prophesit untruths , and the Priests recei●● gifts , and my people delight therein , what will become of this in the end ? The sacred Doctrine of Divinity in this sort is a Science , because it proceeds out of Principles that are known by the light of a Superior Knowledge , which is the Knowledge of God , and the Blessed in Heaven . In this Superior Science , This Principle , The Scriptures are the Oracles of God , is more than evident in full light . This Superior Science delivered this Principle in full revealed Light to the Prophets and Apostles . * * Non ●teditur Deus esse Author hujus Scienti● , qui● Homines hoc testati sunt in quantum Homines nudo Testimonio Humano ; sed in quantum circa eos effulsit virtus Divina . Et ita Deus iis , & sibi ipsi in eis Testimonium perhibuit . Hen. ● Gand. Sum. P. 1. A. 9. q. 3. This Inf●llible Light of this Principle made their Authority derivatively Divine . By the same Divine Authority they wrote , and delivered the Scripture to the Church . Therefore from them immediately the Church received the Scripture , and that uncorrupt , though not in the same clearness of Light , which they had . And yet since no sufficient Reason hath , or can be given , that in any Substantial thing it hath been * * Corrumpi non possunt , quia in manibus sunt omnium Christianorum ; Et quisquts hoc primitùs ausus esset , multorum Codicum vetustiorum collation● confut●r●tur . Maximè , quia non una linguâ , sed multis continetur Scriptura . Nonnullae autem Codicum mendositates , vel de Antiquioribus , vel de Linguâ praecedente emendantur . S. Aug. L. 32. cont. Faustum , c. 16. Corrupted , it remains firm at this day , and that proved in the most Supreme Science ; and therefore now to be supposed ( at least by all Christians ) That the Scripture is the Word of God . So ; my Answer is good , even in strictness , That this Principle is to be supposed in this Dispute .

Num. 5 Besides , the Jews never had , nor can have any other Proof , That the Old Testament is the Word of God , than we have of the New . For theirs was delivered by Moses , and the Prophets ; and ours was delivered by the Apostles , which were Prophets too . The Jews did believe their Scripture by a Divine Authority : For so the Jews argue themselves : * * S. John 9. 29. S. Joh. 9. We know that God spake with Moses . † † Maldonat . in S. Joh. 9. Itaque non magis errare posse eum sequentes , quàm si Deam ipsam sequerentur . And that therefore they could no more erre in following Moses , than they could in following God himself . And our Saviour seems to infer as much , ‖ ‖ S. Joh. 5. 47. S. Joh. 5. where he expostulates with the Jews thus : If you believe not Moses his Writings , how should you believe Me ? Now how did the Jews know that God spake to Moses ? How ? Why apparently , the same way that is before set down . First , by Tradition . So S. * * Hom. 57. in S. Joh. 9. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Chrysostome : We know why : By whose witness do you know ? By the Testimony of our Ancestors . But he speaks not of their immediate Ancestors , but their Prime , which were Prophets , and whose Testimony was Divine ; into which ( namely their Writings ) the Jews did resolve their Faith . And even that Scripture of the Old Testament was a † † a S. Pet. 1. 19. Light , and a shining Light too : And therefore could not but be sufficient , when Tradition had gone before . And yet though the Jews entred this way to their Belief of the Scripture , they do not say , ‖ ‖ S. Chrysost. ubi suprd . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Audivimus , We have heard that God spake to Moses , but We know it . So they Resolved their Faith higher , and into a more inward Principle , than an Ear to their immediate Ancestors , and their Tradition . And I would willingly learn of you , if you can shew it me , where ever any one Jew disputing with another about their Law , did put the other to prove , that the Old Testament was the Word of God . But they still supposed it . And when others put them to their Proof , this way they went . And yet you say :

That no other Answer could be made , but by admitting some Word of God unwritten , to assure us of this Point .

§ . 19 Num. 1 I think , I have shewed , that my Answer is good , and that no other Answer need be made . If there were need , I make no Question , but another Answer might be made to assure us of this Point , though we did not admit of any Word of God unwritten . I say , to assure us ; and you express no more . If you had said , to assure us by Divine Faith , your Argument had been the stronger . But if you speak of Assurance only in the general , I must then tell you ( and it is the great advantage which the Church of Christ hath against Insidels ) a man may be assured , nay infallibly assured by Ecclesiastical and Humane Proof . Men that never saw Rome , may be sure , and infallibly believe , That such a City there is , by Historical , and acquired Faith . And if Consent of Humane Story can assure me this , why should not Consent of Church-story assure me the other , That Christ and his Apostles delivered this Body of Scripture as the Oracles of God ? For Jews , Enemies to Christ , they bear witness to the Old Testament ; and Christians through almost all Nations * * Tantâ hominum , & temporam consensione firmatum . S. Aug. L. de Mor. Eccles. Cath. c. 29. Ii Libri quoquo modo se habent , sancti tamen Divinarum Rerum pleni propè totius generis humani Confessione diffamantur , &c. S. Aug. de util. Cred. c. 7. & L. 13. cont. Faust. c. 15. give in evidence to both Old and New . And no Pagan , or other Enemies of Christianity , can give such a Worthy and Consenting Testimony for any Authority upon which they rely , or almost for any Principle which they have , as the Scripture hath gained to it self . And as is the Testimony which it receives , above all † † Super omnes omnium Gentium Liter as . S. Aug. 11. de Civit. Dei , c. 1. Writings of all Nations ; so here is assurance in a great measure , without any Divine Authority , in a Word written or Unwritten . A great assurance , and it is Infallible too ; Only then we must distinguish Infallibility . For first , a thing may be presented as an infallible Object of Belief , when it is true ▪ and remains so . For Truth quà talis , as it is Truth , cannot deceive . Secondly , a thing is said to be Infallible , when it is not only true , and remains so , actually , but when it is of such invariable constancie , and upon such ground , as that no Degree of falshood at any time , in any respect can fall upon it . Certain it is , that by Humane Authority , Consent , and Proof , a man may be assured infallibly , that the Scripture is the Word of God , by an acquired Habit of Faith , cui non subest falsum , under which nor Error , nor falshood is : But he cannot be assured insallibly , by Divine Faith , * * Incertum esse non potest hos esse Libros Canonicos . Wal. Doct. sid. l. 2. a. 2. c. 20. cui subesse non potest falsum , into which no falshood can come , but by a Divine Testimony : This Testimony is absolute in Scripture it self , delivered by the Apostles for the Word of God , and so sealed to our Souls by the operation of the Holy Ghost . That which makes way for this as an † † Canus Loc. l. 2. c. 8. facit Ecclesiam Causam sine qua non . Introduction and outward motive , is the Tradition of the present Church ; but that neither simply Divine , nor sufficient alone , into which we may resolve our Faith , but only as is ‖ ‖ §. 16. before expressed .

Num. 2 And now to come close to the Particular . The time was , before this miserable Rent in the Church of Christ ( which I think no true Christian can look upon , but with a bleeding heart ) that you and We were all of One Belief : That belief was tainted , in tract and corruption of times , very deeply . A Division was made ; yet so , that both Parts held the Creed , and other Common Principles of Belief . Of these , this was one of the greatest , * * Inter omnes penè constat aut certè id quod satis est , inter me & illos , cum quibus nunc agitur , convenit hoc , &c. Sic in aliâ Causâ cont. Manichaeos , S. Aug. L. de Mor. Eccl: Cath. c. 4. That the Scripture is the Word of God ; For our belief of all things contained in it , depends upon it . Since this Division , there hath been nothing done by us to discredit this Principle . Nay , We have given it all honour , and ascribed unto it more sufficiencie , even to the containing of all things necessary to salvation , with † † Vin. Lir. cont. Haeres . c. 2. Satis superque , enough and more than enough ; which your selves have not done , do not . And for begetting and setling a Belief of this Principle , we go the same way with you , and a better besides . The same way with you : Because we allow the Tradition of the present Church to be the first inducing Motive to embrace this Principle ; only we cannot go so far in this way as you , to make the present Tradition always an Infallible Word of God unwritten : For this is to go so far in , till you be out of the way . For Tradition is but a Lane in the Church ; it hath an end , not only to receive us in , but another after , to let us out , into more open , and richer ground . And we go a better way than you : Because after we are moved , and prepared , and induced by Tradition , we resolve our Faith into that Written Word , and God delivering it ; in which we find materially , though not in Terms , the very Tradition , that led us thither . And so we are sure by Divine Authority that we are in the way , because at the end we find the way proved . And do what can be done , you can never settle the Faith of man about this great Principle , till you rise to greater assurance , than the Present Church alone can give . And therefore once again to that known place of S. Augustine : * * Contra Epist. Fund . c. 5. The words of the Father are , Nisi commoveret , Unless the Authority of the Church moved me : but not alone , but with other Motives ; else it were not commovere , to move together . And the other Motives are Resolvers , though this be Leader . Now since we go the same way with you , so far as you go right ; and a better way than you , where you go wrong ; we need not admit any other Word of God , than we do . And this ought to remain , as a Presupposed Principle among all Christians , and not so much as come into this Question , about the sufficiencie of Scripture between you , and us . But you say , that

From this the Lady called us , and desiring to hear , Whether the Bishop would grant the Roman Church to be the Right Church ? The B. granted , That it was .

§ . 20 Num. 1 One occasion which moved Tertullian to write his Book d● Praescript . adversus Haereticos , was , That he * * Pamel . in Summar . Lib ... Videns Disputationibus nihil aut par●m profici . saw little or no Profit come by Disputations . Sure the Ground was the same then , and now . It was not to deny , that Disputation is an Opening of the Understanding , a sifting out of Truth ; it was not to affirm , that any such Disquisition is in , and of it self unprofitable . If it had , S. Stephen † † Acts 6. 9. would not have disputed with the Cyrenians , nor S. Paul with the ‖ ‖ Acts 9. 29. Grecians first , and then with the Jews * * Acts 19. 17. , and all Comers . No sure : it was some Abuse in the Disputants , that frustrated the good of the Disputation . And one Abuse in the Disputants , is a Resolution to hold their own , though it be by unworthy means , and disparagement † † Debilitatur generosa indoles conject a in argutias . Sen. Ep. 48. of truth . And so I find it here . For as it is true , that this Question was asked ; so it is altogether false , that it was asked in this ‖ ‖ Here A. C. hath nothing to say , but that the Jesuite did not affirm , That the Lady asked this Question in this or any other precise form . No ? why , the words preceding are the Jesuites own . Therefore if these were not the Ladies words , he wrongs her , not I him . form , or so answered . There is a great deal of Difference ( especially as Romanists handle the Question of the Church ) between The Church , and A Church ; and there is some between a True Church and a Right Church : which is the word you use , but no man else that I know ; I am sure not I.

Num. 2 For The Church may import in our Language , The only true Church ; and perhaps ( as some of you seem to make it ) the Root and the Ground of the Catholike . And this I never did grant of the Roman Church , nor ever mean to do . But A Church can imply no more , than that it is a member of the Whole . And this I never did , nor ever will deny , if it fall not absolutely away from Christ . That it is a True Church I granted also ; but not a Right ( as you impose upon me . ) For Ens and Verum , Being and True , are convertible one with another ; and every thing that hath a Being , is truly that Being , which it is , in truth of Substance . But this word Right is not so used , but is referr'd more properly to perfection in Conditions : And in this sense , every thing that hath a true , and real Being , is not by and by Right in the Conditions of it . A man that is most dishonest , and unworthy the name , a very Thief ( if you will ) is a True man , in the verity of his Essence , as he is a Creature endued with Reason ; for this none can steal from him , nor he from himself , but Death : But he is not therefore a Right , or an upright man . And a Church that is exceeding corrupt , both in Manners and Doctrine , and so a dishonour to the Name , is yet a True Church in the verity of Essence , as a Church is a Company of men , which profess the Faith of Christ , and are Baptized into his Name : But yet it is not therefore a Right Church , either in Doctrine , or Manners . It may be you meant cunningly to slip in this word Right , that I might at unawares grant it Orthodox . But I was not so to be caught ; For I know well , that Orthodox Christians are keepers of integrity , and followers of right things ( so * * Integritat● custodes , & rect a sectantes . De vera Relig. c. 5. St. Augustine ) of which , the Church of Rome at this day is neither . In this sense then no Right , that is , no Orthodox Church at Rome .

Num. 3 And yet no News it is , that I granted the Roman Church to be a True Church . For so much very learned Protestants † † Hooker l. 3. §. 1. Junius l. de Ec. c. 17. Falluntur qui Ecclesiam negant , quia Papatus in eâ est . Reynold . Thes. 5. Negat tantum esse Catholicam , vel sanum ejus membrum . Nay the very Separatists grant it . Fr. Johnson in his Treatise , called , A Christian Plea , Printed 1617. p. 123 , &c. have acknowledged before me ; and the Truth cannot deny it . For that Church , which receives the Scripture as a Rule of Faith , though but as á partial and imperfect Rule ; and both the Sàcraments as Instrumental Causes , and Seals of Grace , though they add more , and misuse these ; yet cannot but be a True Church in essence . How it is in Manners and Doctrine , I would you would look to it with a single eye , ‖ ‖ Si tamen bono ingenio Pietas & Pa● quaedam mentis accedat , fine quà de sanctis rebus nihil prorsus intelligi potest . S. Aug. de Util. Cred. c. 18. For if Piety and a Peaceable mind be not joyned to a good understanding , nothing can be known in these great things .

Num. 4 Here A. C. tells us , That the Jesuite doth not say that the Lady asked this Question in this , or any other precise form of words ; A. C. p. 53. But saith , the Jesuite is sure , her desire was to know of me , whether I would grant the Roman Church to be the right Church ? And how was the Jesuite sure the Lady desired to hear this from me ? Why , A. C. tells us that too . For he adds , That the A. C. p. 54. Jesuite had particularly spoken with her before , and wished her to insist upon that Point . Where you may see , and 't is fit the Clergy of England should consider with what cunning Adversaries they have to deal , who can find a way to * * And after A. C. saith again , p. 54. That the Lady did not ask the Question , as if she meant to be satisfied with bearing what I said . So belike they take Caution before-hand for that too ▪ That whatever we say ( unless we grant what they would have ) their Proselytes shall not be satisfied with it . prepare their Disciples , and instruct them before-hand upon what Poynts to insist , that so they may with more ease slide that into their hearts and consciences , which should never come there . And this once known , I hope they will the better provide against it . But A. C. goes on , and tells us , That certainly by my Answer , the A. C. p. 54. Ladies desire must needs be , to hear from me , not whether the Church of Rome were a right Church , &c. but whether I would grant , that there is but one holy Catholike Church , and whether the Roman Church ( that is , not only that which is in the City , or Diocess of Rome , but all that agreed with it ) be not it . About A Church , and The Church , I have said enough * * §. 20. N. 1. before , and shall not repeat . Nor is there any need I should . For A. C. would have it The Church , The One , Holy , Catholike Church . But this cannot be granted , take the Roman Church , in what sense they please , in City , or Diocess , or all that agree with it . Yet howsoever before I leave this , I must acquaint the Reader with a perfect Jesuitism . In all the Primitive Times of the Church , a Man , or a Family , or a National Church were accounted Right and Orthodox , as they agreed with the Catholike Church ; But the Catholike was never then measured , or judged by Man , Family , or Nation . But now in the Jesuites new School , The One , Holy , † † And though Stapleton to magnifie the Church of Rome , is pleased to say : Apud vet●r●s pro eod●m habita fuit Ecclesia Romana & Ecclesia Catholica : yet he is so modest as to give this Reason of it : Quia ejus Communio ●rat evidentèr & certi●●●●● cum to●d Catholied . Relect. Con. 1. q. 5. A. 3 ▪ ( Lo , The Communion of the Roman was then with the Catholike Church , not of the Catholike with it . ) And S. Cyprian imployed his Legates Caldonius and Fortunatus , not to bring the Catholike Church to the Communion of Rome , but Rome to the Catholike Church : El●borar●nt , ●t ad Catholica Ecclessae unitatem s●iss● Corporis membr● c●●p●●erent , &c. Now the Members of this Rent and torn Body were they of Rome , then in an open Schism between Corneliu● and N●vatian . S. Cypr. L. 2. Epist. 10. Catholike Church must be measured by that which is in the City or Diocess of Rome , or of them which agreed with it , and not Rome by the Catholike . For so A. C. says expresly , The Lady would know of me , not whether that were the Catholike Church to which Rome agreed ; but whether that were not the Holy Cathotholike Church , which agreed with Rome . So upon the matter , belike the Christian Faith was committed to the Custody of the Roman , not of the Catholike Church ; and a man cannot agree with the Catholike Church of Christ ( in this new Doctrine of A. C. ) unless he agree with the Church of Rome ; but if he agree with that , all 's safe , and he is as Orthodox , as he need be .

Num. 5 But A. C. is yet troubled about the form of the Ladies Question . And he will not have it , That she desired to know , whether I would grant the Roman Church to be the Right Church ? Though these be her words , according to the Jesuites own setting down , but he thinks the Question was , Whether the Church of Rome was not the Right Church ? Not Be not , but was not . A. C. p. 54. Was not ? That is , was not once or in time past the Right Church before Luther and others made a breach from it ? Why , truly A. C. needed not have troubled himself half so much about this . For let him take his Choice . It shall be all one to me whether the Question were asked by Be ▪ o● by Was ? For the Church of Rome neither is , nor wa● the Right Church , as the Lady desired to hear . A Particular Church , it is , and was , and in some times right , and in some times wrong ; and then in some things right and in some things wrong ▪ But The Right Church , or The Holy Catholike Church it never was , nor ever can be . And therefore was not such before Luther , and Others either left it , or were thrust from it . A particular Church it was ▪ But then A. C. is not distinct enough here neither . For the Church of Rome both was , and was not a Right , or Orthodox Church before Luther made a Breach from it . For the word An●e , Before , may look upon Rome , and that Church a great way off , or long before ; and then in the Prime times of it , it was a most Right and Orthodox Church . But it may look also nearer home , and upon the immediate times before Luther , or some Ages before that ; And then in those times * * C●m infiniti Abusus , Schismata quoque & Haereses per totum nunc Christianum Orbem invalescant , Ecclesiam Dei legitimâ indigere Reformatione nemi●● 〈◊〉 ●ertum ●rit . Pe● . de Ali●co Card. Camer● ▪ ce●●i● L. de Refor . Ecclesiae . And if Schisms and Heresies did then invade the whole Christian world , let A. C. consider how Rome s●aped free ▪ And I think Ca●erac●●sis was in this Prophetical . For sixty years and more before Luther was born , and so before the great troubles which have since fallen upon all Christendom , he used these words in the Book which himself delivered up in the Councel of Constance : Nisi celerite● fiat Reformatio , audeo dicere quod licet magna si●t , quae videmus , tamen in brevi incomparabiliter majora vid●bimus . Et post istae ●on●●rua tam ●●rre●●a , majora alia audi●mus , &c. Camet . l. de Refor . Eccles. And it will hardly sink into any mans judgment , that so great a man , as Pet. ●s , Aliac● was in that Church ▪ should speak thus , if he did not see some Errors in the Doctrine of that Church , as well as in Manners . Nay Cassander , though he lived and dyed in the Communion of the Church of Rome , yet found fault with some of her Doctrines . Consult . Arti● . 21 & 22. And Pope ●uli●●● the third Professed ●e Bononi● , 〈◊〉 Sacramentorum Ecclesiae ministerium i●●umerabiles Abusus irrep●isse . Espencaeus in Tit. 1. and yet he was on● of the Bishops , nay the chief Legat in the Councel of Trent . Rome was a Corrupt and a tainted Church , far from being Right . And yet both these times Before Luther made his Breach . So here A. C. should have been more distinct . For the word Before includes the whole time before Luther , in part of which time that Church of Rome was Right , and in other part whereof it was wrong . But † † A. C. p. ●4 . A. C. adds yet , That I suspected the Lady would i●ser , if once that Church were Right , what hindred it now to be ? Since that did not depart from the Protestant Church , but the Protestant Church from it . Truly , I neither suspected the Inference would be made , nor fear it , when it is made . For 't is no News that any Particular Church , Roman , as well as another , may once have been Right , and afterwards wrong , and in far worse case . And so it was in Rome after the enemy had sowed tares among the wheat . ‖ ‖ S. Mat. 13. 25. S. Mat. 13. But whether these Tares were sowen , while their Bishops slept ; or whether * * For A. C. knows well , what strange Doctrines are charged upon some Popes . And all Bellarmines labour , though great and full of Art , is not able to wish them clean . 〈◊〉 ● . 4. de R●m . Pont. c. 8 , &c. Et Papas quosdam graves errores semin●ss● in Ecclesid Christi lu●e cla●●●s est . Et pro●●tu●●d ●aco . Almain . Opus● . de Author . Ecclesiae , c. 10. And Cassander speaks it out more plainly : Uti●am 〈◊〉 ( He speaks of the Bishops and Rectors in the Roman Church ) ● 〈◊〉 haec Informa●●● 〈◊〉 ess●● , non Ipsi ●arum Superstitionum Auctores essent : vel certè 〈◊〉 i● Animi● 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ●l●quand● 〈◊〉 ca●sâ nutrir●●● . Cassand . Consult● . Art . 21. versus finem . They themselves did not help to sow them , is too large a Disquisition for this Place . So though it were once Right , yet the Tares which grow thick in it , are the Cause why 't is not so now . And then though that Church did not depart from the Protestants Church ; yet if it gave great , and just Cause for the Protestant Church to depart from the Errors of it , while it in some Particulars departed from the Truth of Christ , it comes all to one for this Particular , That the Roman Church which was once right , is now become wrong , by embracing Superstition and Error .

Farther he confessed , That Protestants had made a Rent and Division from it .

§ 21 Num. 1 I confess I could here be heartily * * Grave omni●● crimen , s●● desensionem longinquam non requirit , satis est enim negare ; sicut pro Ecclesiâ olim . S. Aug. de ●til . Cred. c. ● . ● angry , but that I have resolved in handling matters of Religion to leave all gall out of my Ink ; for I never granted that the Roman Church either is , or was the right Church . 'T is too true indeed , that there is a miserable Rent in the Church , and I make no Question but the best men do most bemoan it † † Hanc quae respect● hominum Ecclesia dicitur , observare , ejusque Communionem co●ere debemus . Calv. Inst. 4. c. 1. ; nor is he a Christian , that would not have Unity , might he have it with Truth . But I never ● . 7. said , nor thought that the Protestants made this Rent . The Cause of the Schism is yours ; for you thrust us from you ; because we called for Truth , and Redress of Abuses . For a ‖ ‖ Rect●●cia● not ●e●iss● re●●d●udo ● vobis , &c. Lucif . L. d● non co●●●nitud● cum ●aereticis . He speaks of the Arrians , and I shall not compare you with them , nor give any Offence that way . I shall only draw the general Argument from it , thus : If the Orthodox did well in departing from the Arrians , then the Schism was to be imputed to the Arrians , although the Orthodox did depart from them . Otherwise if the Orthodox had been guilty of the Schism , he could not have said , Rectè scias nos fecisse recede●do . For it cannot be that a man should do well in making a Schism . There may be therefore a necessary separation , which yet incurs not the blame of Schism ; and that is , when Doctrines are taught contrary to the Catholike Faith . Schism must needs be theirs , whose the Cause of it is . The Woe runs full out of the mouth of * Christ , ever against him , that gives the Offence ; not against him that takes it , ever . But you have , by this carriage , given me just cause , never to treat with you , or your like , but before a Judge , or a Jury . † S. Matth. 18. 7.

Num. 2 But here A. C. tells me , I had no cause to be angry , either with the Jesuite , or my self . Not with the Jesuite , for he writ down A. C. ● . 55 , 56. my words in fresh memory , and upon special notice taken of the Passage , and that I did say either iisdem , or aequipollentibus verbis , either in these , or equivalent words , That the Protestants did make the Rent , or Division from the Roman Church . What , did the Jesuite set down my words in fresh memory , and upon special notice taken , and were they so few as these , The Protestants did make the Schism ; and yet was his memory so short , that he cannot tell , whether I uttered this iisdem , or aequipollentibus verbis ? Well , I would A. C. and his Fellows would leave this Art of theirs , and in Conferences ( which * * A. C. p. 57. they are so ready to call for ) impose no more upon other men , than they utter . And you may observe too , that after all this full Assertion , that I spake this iisdem , or aequipollentibus verbis , A. C. concludes thus : The Jesuite took special notice in fresh memory , A. C. p. 55. and is sure he related , at least in sense , just as it was uttered . What 's this , At least in sense just as it was uttered ? Do not these two Enterfeire , and shew the Jesuite to be upon his shuffling pace ? For if it were just as it was uttered , then it was in the very form of words too , not in sense only . And if it were but At least in sense , then when A. C. hath made the most of it , it was not just as 't was uttered . Besides , at least in sense , doth not tell us in whose sense it was . For if A. C. mean the Jesuite's sense of it , he may make what sense he pleases of his own words ; but he must impose no sense of his upon my words . But as he must leave my words to my self , so when my words are uttered , or written , he must leave their sense either to me , or to that genuine Construction , which an Ingenuous Reader can make of them . And what my words of Grant were , I have before expressed , and their sense too .

Num. 3 Not with my self : That 's the next . For A. C. says , 'T is truth , and that the world knows it , that the Protestants did depart from A. C. p. 56. the Church of Rome , and got the name of Protestants , by protesting against it . No , A. C. by your leave , this is not truth neither ; and therefore I had reason to be angry with my self , had I granted it . For , first , the Protestants did not depart : For departure is voluntary , so was not theirs . I say , not theirs , taking their whole Body and Cause together . For that some among them were peevish , and some ignorantly zealous , is neither to be doubted , nor is there danger in confessing it . Your Body is not so perfect ( I wot well ) but that many amongst you are as pettish , and as ignorantly zealous , as any of Ours . You must not suffer for these , nor We for those ; nor should the Church of Christ for either . Next , the Protestants did not get that Name by Protesting against the Church of Rome , but by Protesting ( and that when nothing else would serve ) † † Conventus fuit Ordinum Imperii Spirae ▪ ●bi Decretum factum est , ut Edictum Wormatiense observaretur contra Novatores , ( sic appellare placuit ) & ut omnia in integrum restituantur ( & sic nulla omnind Reformatio . ) Contra hoc Edictum solennis fuit protes●atio , Aprilis 16. An. Chr. 1529. Et hinc ortum pervulgatum illud Protestantium nomen . Sc. Calvis . Chro. ad Anne 1529. This Protestation therefore was not simply against the Roman Church , but against the Edict which was for the restoring of all things to their former estate , without any Reformation . against her Errors and Superstitions . Do you but remove them from the Church of Rome , and our Protestation is ended , and the Separation too . Nor is Protestation it self such an unheard-of thing in the very heart of Religion . For the Sacraments both of the Old and New Testament are called by your own School , Visible Signs protesting the Faith . Now if the Sacraments be Protestantia , Signes Protesting , why may not men also , and without all offence , be called Protestants , since by receiving the true Sacraments , and by refusing them which are corrupted , they do but Protest the sincerity of their Faith against that Doctrinal Corruption , which hath invaded the great Sacrament of the Eucharist , and other Parts of Religion ? Especially , since they are men * * Quibus homo fidem suam protestaretur , Tho p. 3. q. 61. A. 3. 4. C. which must protest their Faith by these visible Signs and Sacraments .

Num. 4 But A. C. goes on , and will needs have it , that the Protestants were the Cause of the Schism . For ( saith he ) though A. C. p. 56. the Church of Rome did thrust them from her by Excommunication , yet they had first divided themselves by obstinate holding , and teaching Opinions contrary to the Roman Faith , and Practice of the Church ; which to do , S. Bernard thinks is Pride , and S. Augustine Madness . So then , in his Opinion ; First , Excommunication on their Part was not the Prime Cause of this Division ; but the holding and teaching of contrary Opinions . Why but then in my Opinion , That holding and teaching was not the Prime Cause neither , but the Corruptions and Superstitions of Rome , which forced many men to hold , and teach the contrary . So , the Prime Cause was theirs still . Secondly , A. C's words are very considerable . For he charges the Protestants to be the Authors of the Schism , for obstinate holding and teaching contrary Opinions . To what I pray ? Why to the † † I know Bellarm. quotes S. Jerome : Scito Romanam Fidem , &c. suprà §. 3. Nu. 9. But there S. Jerome doth not call it Fidem Romanam , as if Fides Romana and Fides Catholica were convertible : but he speaks of it in the Concrete . Romana Fides , i. Romanorum Fides , quae laudata fuit ab Apostolo , &c. Rom. 1. 8. S. Hieron . Apol. 3. cont. Ruffin . That is , that Faith which was then at Rome when S. Paul commended it . But the Apostles commending of it in the Romans at one time , passes no deed of Assurance , that it shall continue worthy of Commendations among the Romans through all times . Roman Faith . To the Roman Faith ? It was wont to be the Christian Faith , to which contrary Opinions were so dangerous to the Maintainers . But all 's Roman now with A. C. and the Jesuite . And then to countenance the Business , S. Bernard and S. Augustine are brought in , whereas neither of them speak of the Roman , and S. Bernard perhaps neither of the Catholike , nor the Roman , but of a Particular Church , or Congregation . Or if he speak of the Catholike , of the Roman certainly he doth not . His words are , Quae major superbia , &c. What greater pride , than that one man should prefer his judgment before the whole Congregation of all the Christian Churches in the world ? So A. C. out of Saint Bernard . ‖ ‖ Que major superbia , quàm ut unus homo toti Congregationi judicium su●m praeferat , tanquam ipse solus Spiritum Dei habeat ? S. Bern. Serm. 3. de Resur . But Saint Bernard not so . For these last words ( of all the Christian Churches in the world ) are not in Saint Bernard . And whether Toti Congregationi imply more in that Place than a Particular Church , is not very manifest . Nay I think 't is plain , that he speaks both of , and to that particular Congregation to which he was then preaching . And I believe A. C. will not easily find where tota Congregatio , the whole Congregation , is used in Saint Bernard , or any other of the Fathers , for the whole Catholike Church of Christ . And howsoever the meaning of S. Bernard be , 't is one thing for a private man , Judicium suum praeferre , to prefer , and so follow his private Judgment , before the Whole Congregation ; which is indeed , Lepra proprii Consilii ( as S. Bernard there calls it ) the proud Leprosie of the Private Spirit . And quite another thing for an Intelligent man , and in some things unsatisfied , modestly to propose his doubts even to the Catholike Church . And much more may ▪ a whole National Church , nay the whole Body of the Protestants do it . And for S. Augustine , the Place alledged out of him is a known Place . And he speaks indeed of the Whole Catholike Church . And he * * Similiter etiam siquid horum tota per Orbem frequentat Ecclesia ? Nam & hinc quin ita faciendum fit disputare , Insolentissimae Insaniae est . S. Aug. Epist. 118. c. 5. says ( and he says it truly ) 'T is a part of most insolent madness for any Man to dispute , whether that be to be done , which is usually done in ▪ and through the whole Catholike Church of Christ ▪ Where first here 's not a word of the Roman Church , but of that , which is tota per Orbem , all over the World , Catholike , which Rome never yet was ▪ Secondly , A. C. applies this to the Roman Faith , whereas A. C. p. 56. S. Augustine speaks there expresly of the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church , and † † Quaris quid per quintam Feriam ultimae hebadomadis Quadragesimae fieri debet , An offerendum sit manè ? &c. S. Aug. Ibid. particularly about the Manner of Offering upon Maundy ▪ Thursday , whether it be in the Morning , or after Supper , or both . Thirdly , 't is manifest , by the words themselves , that S. Augustine speaks of no Matter of Faith there , Roman , nor Catholike . For Frequentat , and ‖ ‖ And so Bellarmine most expresly . But then he adds , Universam Ecclesiam non posse errare , non solùm in Credendo , sed nec in Operando : & praesertim in Ritu & Cultu Divino , L. 4. de Verb. Dei , c. 9. § 4. And if this be true , what is it to Rome ? Faciendum are for Things done , and to be done , not for Things believed , or to be believed . So here 's not One Word for the Roman Faith in either of these Places , And after this , I hope you will the less wonder at A. C's Boldness . Lastly , a right sober man may without the least Touch of Insolencie or Madness , dispute a Business of Religion with the Roman either Church or Prelate ▪ ( as all men know * * Euseb. 1 ▪ 5. Hist. Eccl. c. 26. Et Socrat. L. 5. Hist. c. 22. Irenaeus did with Victor . ) so it be with Modesty , and for the finding out , or Confirming of Truth , free from Vanity , and purposed Opposition against even a Particular Church . But in any other way to dispute the Whole Catholike Church , is just that which S. Augustine calls it , Insolent Madness .

Num. 5 But now were it so , that the Church of Rome were Orthodox in all things , yet the Faith , by the Jesuite's leave , is not simply to be called the Roman , but the Christian , and the Catholike Faith ▪ And yet A. C. will not understand this , but A. C. p. 56. Roman and Catholike , whether Church or Faith , must be one and the same with him ; and therefore infers , That there can be no just Cause to make a Schism or Division from the whole Church . For the whole Church cannot universally erre in Doctrine of Faith . That the whole Church cannot universally erre in the Doctrine of Faith , is most true , and 't is granted by drivers * * Questio est , An Ecclesia totalis totaliter considerat● , ● . pr● omnibus simul Electis , dum sunt Membra Militantis Ecclesia , possint errare , v●l i● tot●●ide , v●l in grav● atiquo fidei p●n●to ? Et respondemus simplicit●● ▪ id ●sse impossibile , Keckerm . Sy●● . Theol ▪ p. 387. Edit. Ha●novia ▪ An. 1602 ▪ Calvinus & 〈◊〉 Har●ti●i concedunt Ecclesiam absolute ●o● posse deficere ; Sed dicunt intelligi debere de Ecclesia invisib 〈…〉 Bellar. L. 3. de Eccl●s● Milit. c. 13. §. 1. But this Exception of Bellarmine's , that the Protestants , whom , out of his Liberality , he calls Hereticks , speak of the Invisible Church , is ●●●●●ly frivolous . For the Church of the Elect is in the Church of them that are Called , and the Invisible Church in the Visible . Therefore if the whole Church of the Elect cannot erre in Fundamentals , the whole Visible Church , in which the same Elect are , cannot 〈◊〉 . Now that the Invisible Church of the Elect is in the Visible , i● manifest out of S. August . Ipsa est Ecclesta , quae intra sagenam Dominicam cum malis piscibus na●a● . S. Aug. Epist. 48. Grana sunt inter illam paleant , quando Area cum videretur tota , palea putabatur . S. Aug. in Psal. 121. And this is proved at large by Hooker , L. 3. Eccles. Pol. §. 1. For else the Elect or Invisible Church is tied to no duty of Christianity . For all such Duties are required of the Church , as 't is Visible ▪ and performed in the Church , as 't is Visible . As we hold it impossible , that the Church should ever by Apostasie and Misbelief , wholly depart from God , &c. So we hold , that it never falls into Heresie . So that Bellarmine is as much to be blamed for idle and needless busying himself to prove , That the Visible Church never falls into Heresie , which we most willingly grant . Field . L. 4. de Eccles. c. 2. Taking the Church for all the Believers now living , and in things necessary to be known expresly . Ibid. Calvinus dicit hanc Propositionem [ Ecclesia no● potest errare ] ●●r●● esse si intelligatur dum duplici restriction● . Prima est , si non pr●●onat Dogmata extra Scripturam , ●o● . ( And indeed Calvin doth say so , L. 4. Instit. c. 8. §. 13. ) Secunde est , si intelligatur de solâ Ecclesiâ Universali , non autem de Representa●ivâ . Bellar. L. 3. de Eccl. Milit. c. 14. §. 2. And I hope it is as good and a better Restriction in Calvin , To say the Catholike Church cannot erre , if it keep to the Scripture : than for Bellarmine to say , The particular Church of Rome cannot erre , because of the Pope's residing there ; or the Pope cannot erre , if he keep his Chair : which yet he affirms , L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. 2. Protestants ( so you will but understand it s not erring , in Absolute Fundamental Doctrines . ) And therefore 't is true also , that there can be no just Cause to make a Schism from the whole Church . But here 's the Jesuite's Cunning. The whole Church , with him , is the Roman , and those parts of Christendom , which subject themselves to the Roman Bishop . All other parts of Christendom , are in Heresie and Schism , and what A. C. pleases . Nay soft . For another Church may separate from Rome , if Rome will separate from Christ . And so far as it separates from Him and the Faith , so far may another Church fever from it . And this is all that the Learned Protestants do or can say : And I am sure all that ever the Church of England hath either said , or done . And that the whole Church cannot erre in Doctrines absolutely Fundamental , and Necessary to all mens Salvation ( besides the Authority of thoso Protestants , most of them being of prime Rank ) seems to me to be clear by the Promise of Christ , S. Matth. 16. That the Gates of Hell shall S. Mat. 16. 18. not prevail against it . Whereas most certain it is , that the Gates of Hell prevail very far against it , if the Whole Militant Church universally taken , can Erre , from , or in the Foundation : But then this Power of not E●ring is not to be conceived , as if it were in the Church primò & per se , Originally , or by any power it hath of it self : For the Church is constituted of Men , and Humanum est errare , all men can erre . But this Power is in it , partly by the vertue of this Promise of Christ : and partly by the Matter which it teacheth , which is the unerring Word of God , so plainly and manifestly delivered to her , as that it is not possible she should universally fall from it , or teach against it in things absolutely necessary to Salvation . Besides , it would be well weighed , whether to believe or teach otherwise , will not impeach the Article of the Creed concerning the Holy Catholike Church , which we profess we believe . For the Holy Catholike Church there spoken of , contains not only the whole Militant Church on earth , but the whole Triumphant also in Heaven . For so * * Ecclesia hic tota accipienda est , non solùm ex part● quâ peregrinatur in terris , &c. verumetiam ex illa parte quae in coelis , &c. S. Aug. Enchir. c. 56. S. Augustine hath long since taught me . Now if the whole Catholike Church in this large extent be Holy , then certainly the whole Militant Church is Holy , as well as the Triumphant , though in a far lower degree , in as much as all † † Nemo ex toto Sanctus , Optat . L. 7. contr● Parme● . Sanctification , all Holiness is imperfect in this life , as well in Churches , as in Men ▪ Holy then the whole Militant Church is . For that which the Apostle speaks of Abraham , is true of the Church , which is a Body Collective made up of the spiritual seed of Abraham , Rom. 11. If the root be holy , so are the branches . Well then , Rom. 11. 16. the whole Militant Church is Holy , and so we believe . Why but , will it not follow then , That the whole Militant Church cannot possibly erre in the Foundations of the Faith ? That she may erre in Superstructures and Deductions , and other by , and unnecessary Truths , if her Curiosity , or other weakness carry her beyond , or cause her to fall short of her Rule , no doubt need be made . But if She can erre either from the Foundation , or in it , She can be no longer Holy , and that Article of the Creed is gone . For if she can erre quite from the Foundation , then She is nor Holy , nor Church , but becomes an Infidel . Now this cannot be . For ‖ ‖ Dum Christus orat in Exc●lso , Navicula ( id est , Ecclesia ) turbatur fluctibus in profundo , &c. sed quia Christus orat , non potest mergi . S. August . Serm. 14. de Verb. Dom. c. 2. Et. Bellar. L. 3. de Eccles. Milit. c. 13. Praesidi● Christi fulcitur Ecclesi● perpetuitas , ut inter turbulentas agitationes , & formidabiles motus , &c. salva tamen man●at . Calvin . L. 2. Instit. c. 15. §. 3. Ipsa Symboli disposition● admonemu● perpetuam residere in Ecclesiâ Christi remissionem Peccatorum . Calv. L. 4. Instit. c. 1. §. 17. Now remission of sins cannot be perpetual in the Church , if the Church it self be not perpetual . But the Church it self cannot be perpetual , if it fall away . all Divines , Ancient and Modern , Romanists and Reformers , agree in this , That the whole Militant Church of Christ cannot fall away into general Apostacie . And if She Erre in the Foundation , that is , in some one or more Fundamental Points of Faith , then She may be a Church of Christ still , but not Holy , but becomes Heretical : And most Certain it is , that no * * Spiritus Sanctificationis non potest inven●●● in Haereticorum mentibus , S. Hierom. in Jerem. 10. Assembly ( be it never so general ) of such Hereticks , is , or can be Holy . Other Errors that are of a meaner alay take not Holiness from the Church ; but these that are dyed in grain cannot consist with Holiness , of which Faith in Christ is the very Foundation . And therefore if we will keep up our Creed , the whole Militant Church must be still Holy . For if it be not so still ; then there may be a time , that Falsum may subesse Fidei Catholicae . That falshood , and that in a high degree , in the very Article , may be the Subject of the Catholike Faith , which were no less than Blasphemy to affirm . For we must still believe the Holy Catholike Church . And if She be not still Holy , then at that time when she is not so , we believe a Falshood under the Article of the Catholike Faith . Therefore a very dangerous thing it is to cry out in general terms , That the whole Catholike Militant Church can Erre , and not limit nor distinguish in time , that it can erre indeed : for Ignorance it hath , and Ignorance can Erre . But Erre it cannot , either by falling totally from the Foundation , or by Heretical Error in it . For the Holiness of the Church consists as much , if not more , in the Verity of the Faith , as in the Integrity of Manners taught and Commanded in the Doctrine of Faith .

Num. 6 Now in this Discourse A. C. thinks he hath met with me . For he tells me , That I may not only safely grant , that protestants ● . C. p. 56. made the Division that is now in the Church ; but further also , and that with a safe Confidence , as one did , was it not you ? saith he , That it was ill done of those , who first made the Separation . Truly I do not now remember , whether I said it or no. But because A. C. shall have full satisfaction from me , and without any Tergiversation , if I did not say it then , I do say it now ; and most true it is , That it was ill done of those , who ere they were , that first made the separation . But then A. C. must not understand me of Actual only , but of Causal separation . For ( as I said * * §. 21. Nu. 1. before ) the Schism is theirs , whose the Cause of it is : And he makes the Separation , that gives the first just Cause of it ; not he that makes an Actual Separation upon a just Cause preceding . And this is so evident a Truth , that A. C. cannot deny it ; for he says , 't is most true . Neither can he deny it in this sense , in A. C. p. 56. which I have expressed it ; for his very Assertion against us ( though false ) is in these Terms , That we gave the first Cause ; Therefore he must mean it of Causal , not of Actual Separation only .

Num. 7 But then A. C. goes on and tells us , That after this Breach was made , yet the Church of Rome was so kind and careful to seek A. C. p. 57. the Protestants ; that She invited them publikely with Safe-conduct to Rome , to a General Councel , freely to speak what they could for themselves . Indeed I think the Church of Rome did carefully seek the Protestants ; But I doubt it was to bring them within their Net . And she invited them to Rome ; A very safe place , if you mark it , for them to come to ; just as the Lyon ( in the * * Olim quod vulpes agroto cauta Leoni Respondit , referam , Qui a me vestigia terrent Omnia te adversum spectantia , nulla retrorsum . Hor. L. 1. ●p . ●1 . ex Aesop. Apologue ) invited the Fox to his own Den. Yea , but there was Safe-Conduct offered too ? Yes , Conduct perhaps , but not safe ; or safe perhaps for going thither , but none for coming thence . Vestigia nulla retrorsum . Yea , but it should have been to a General Councel ? Perhaps so . But was the Conduct safe , that was given for coming to a Councel , which they call General , to some others before them ? No sure , * * Though I cannot justifie all which these two men said , yet safe Conduct being given , that Publike Faith ought not to have been violated . John Hus , and Jerome of Prage burnt for all their Safe-Conduct . And so long as † †

Affirmant uno censensu omnes Catholici , debere Haereticis servar● fidem , sive salvus conductus concedatur Jure communi sive speciali . Bec. Dis. Theol. de Fide Haereticis servandā , c. 1● . §. 5. But for all this Brag of ( Affirmant un● consensu omnes Catholiti ) Becanus shuffies pitifully , to desend the Councel of Constance . For thus he argues : Fides non est violata Hussio . Non à Patribus : Illi enim fidem non dederunt . Non ab Imperatore Sigismundo : Ille enim dedit fidem , sed non violavit . Ibid. §. 7. But all men know that the Emperor was used by the Fathers at Constance to bring Husse thither . Sigismundus Hussum Constantiam vocat , & missis Litaris publicâ fide cavet , mense Octob. Anno 1414. &c. Edit. in 16. Et etiamsi Primò graviter tulit Hussi in carcerationem , tamen cum dicerent Fidem Haereticis non esse servandam , non modò ●●mi sit Offensionem , sed & primus ●●●rbè in eum pronunci avit . Ibid. This is a mockery . And Beca●us his Argument is easily turned upon himself . For if the Fathers did it in cunning , that the Emperor should give Safe-conduct which themselves meant not to keep , then they broke Faith . And if the Emperor knew , they would not keep it , then he himself broke faith , in giving a Safe-Conduct , which he knew to be invalid . And as easie it is to answer what Becanus adds to save that Councels Act , could I stay upon it .

Fides Haereticis data servanda non est , sicut nec Tyrannis , Piratis & caeteris publicis praedonibus , &c. Simanca , Iustit . Tit. 46. §. 51. And although Becanus in the place above cited , §. 13. confidently denies , that the Fathers at Constance decreod , No saith to be kept with Hereticks , and cites the words of the Councel , Sess. 19. yet there the very words themselves ●ave it thus : Posse Concitium eos punire , &c. etiamsi de salvo conductu confisi ad locum vinerint Judicii , &c. And much more plainly Simanca , Instit. 46. §. 52. Jure igitur Haeretici quidam gravissimo Concilii Constantiensis Judicio legitimâ flammâ concremati sunt , quamvis promissa illis securit as fuisset . So they are not only Protestants which charge the Councel of Constance with this . Nor can Becanus say as he doth , Affer●ant uno consensu omnes Catholici , fidem Hae●eticis servandam esse : For Simanca denies it ; And he quotes others for it , which ▪ A. C. would be ●oath should not be accounted Catholikes . But how faithfully Simanca says the one , or Becanus the other , let them take it between them , and the Reader be judge . In the mean time the very Title of the Canon of the Councel of Constance , Sess. 19. is this : Quod non abstantibus salvis conductibus Imperatoris Regum , &c. possit per Judicem competentem de Haeretica pravitate inquiri .

Jesuites write and maintain , That Faith given is not to be kept with Hereticks : And the Church of Rome leaves this lewd Doctrine uncensured ( as it hath hitherto done , and no exception put in of force and violence : ) A. C. shall pardon us , that we come not to Rome , nor within the reach of Roman Power , what freedom of Speech soever be promised us . For to what end Freedom of Speech on their part , ‖ ‖ For so much A. C. confesses , p. 4● . For if they should give way to the altering of one , then why not of another , and another , and so of all ? And ●he Trent-Fathers in a great point of Doctrine being amazed , and not knowing what to answer to a Bishop of their own , yet were resolved not to part with their common error . Certum tamen erat Doctrinam eam non probare , sed quam antea didicissent firmitèr te●ere ▪ &c. Hist. Con. Trid. L. 2 p. 277 ▪ Edit. Leyd . ●6●2 . since they are resolved to alter nothing ? And to what end Freedom of speech on our part , if after speech hath been free , life shall not ?

Num. 8 And yet for all this , A. C. makes no doubt , but that the Romane A. C. p. 57. Church is so far from being Cause of the continuance of the Schism , or hinderance of the Re-union , that it would yet give a free hearing with most ample Safe-Conduct , if any hope might be given , that the Protestants would sincerely seek nothing but Truth and Peace . Truly A. C. is very Resolute for the Roman Church ; yet how far he may undertake for it , I cannot tell . But for my part , I am of the same Opinion for the continuing of the Schism , that I was for the making of it . That is , that it is ill , very ill done of those , whoever they be , Papists , or Protestants , that give just Cause to continue a Separation . But for free-hearings , or Safe-Conducts , I have said enough , till that Church do not only say , but do otherwise . And as for Truth and Peace , they are in every mans mouth with you , and with us ; But lay they but half so close to the hearts of men , as they are common on their tongues , it would soon be better with Christendom , than at this day it is , or is like to be . And for the Protestants in general , I hope they seek both Truth and Peace , sincerely . The Church of England , I am sure doth , and hath taught me to † † Biseeching God to inspire continually the Universal Church with the Spirit of Truth , Unity , and Concord , &c. In the Prayer for the Militant Church . And in the third Collect on Good-Friday . pray for both , as I most heartily do . But what Rome doth in this , if the world will not see , I will not Censure .

Num. 9 And for that , which A. C. adds , That such a free hearing is A. C. p. 57. more than ever the English Catholikes could obtain , though they have often offered , and desired it , and that but under the Princes word : And that no Answer hath , nor no good Answer can be given . And he cites Campian for it . How far , or how often this hath been asked by the English Romanists , I cannot tell , nor what Answer hath been given them . But surely Campian was too bold , and so is A. C. too , to say * * Campian , Praesat . Rationibus praefixâ . Honestum responsum nullum , no good Answer can be given . For this , I think is a very good Answer ; That the Kings and the Church of England had no Reason to admit of a Publike Dispute with the English Romish Clergy , till they shall be able to shew it under the Seal , or Powers of Rome , That that Church will submit to a Third , who may be an Indifferent Judge between us and them ; or to such a General Councel as is after † † §. 26. Nu. 1. mentioned . And this is an Honest , and I think a full Answer . And without this all Disputation must end in Clamour ; And therefore the more publike , the worse . Because as the Clamour is the greater , so perhaps will be the Schism too .

Moreover he said , he would ingenuously acknowledge , That the Corruption of Manners in the Romish Church , was not a sufficient Cause to justifie their Departing from it .

§ . 22 I would I could say , you did as ingenously repeat , as I did Confess . For I never said , That Corruption of Manners was , or was not a sufficient Cause to justifie their Departure . How could I say this , since I did not grant that they did Depart , otherwise than is * * §. 21. N. 6. before expressed ? ) There is difference between Departure , and causless Thrusting from you ; For out of the Church is not in your Power ( God be thanked ) to thrust us : Think on that . And so much I said expresly then , That which I did ingenuously confess , was this , That Corruption in Manners only , is no sufficient Cause to make a Separation in the Church ; † † Modo ea quae ad Cathedram pertinent , recta praecipiant , S. Hier. Ep. 236. Nor is it . It is a Truth agreed on by the Fathers , and received by Divines of all sorts , save by the Cathari , to whom the Donatist , and the Anabaptist after accorded . And against whom ‖ ‖ L. 4. Instit. c. 1. § 13 , &c. Calvin disputes it strongly . And S. Augustine * * Ep. 48. A malis piscibus corde semper & moribus se●arant●● ▪ &c. corporalem separationem in littore marie , hoc est , in fine saetuli expectant . is plain : There are bad fish in the Net of the Lord , from which there must be ever a Separation in heart , and in manners ; but a corporal separation must be expected at the Sea-shore , that is , the end of the world . And the best fish that are , must not tear and break the Net , because the bad are with them . And this is as ingenuously Confessed for you , as by me . For if Corruption in Manners were a just Cause of Actual Separation of one Church from another , in that Catholike Body of Christ , the Church of Rome hath given as great cause as any , since ( as † † Vix ullum peccatum ( sola Haerest exceptâ ) cogitati potest ▪ quo illa Sedes turpiter maculata non fuerit , maximè ab Anno 800. Relect. Cont. 1. q 5. Art. 3. Stapleton grants ) there is scaree any sin that can be thought by man ( Heresie only excepted ) with which that Sea hath not been foully stained , especially from eight hundred years after Christ . And he need not except Heresie , into which ‖ ‖ Biel. in Can. Miss. Lect. 23. Biel grants it possible the Bishops of that Sea may fall . And * * Stel ▪ in S. Luc. c. 22. Almain . in 3. Sent. d. 24. q. 1. fine . Multae sunt Decretales ber●ticae , &c. And so they erred as Popes . Stella and Almain grant it freely , that some of them did fall , and so ceased to be Heads of the Church , and left Christ ( God be thanked ) at that time of his Vicars defection , to look to his Cure himself .

But ( saith he ) beside Corruption of Manners , there were also Errors in Doctrine .

§ . 23 This I spake indeed . And can you prove that I spake not true in this ? But I added ( though here again you are pleased to omit it ) That some of the Errors of the Roman Church were dangerous to Salvation . For it is not every light Error in Disputable Doctrine , and Points of curious Speculation , that can be a just Cause of Separation in that Admirable Body of Christ , which is his * * Eph. 1. 23. Church , or of one Member of it from another . For he gave his Natural Body to be rent and torn upon the Cross , that his Mystical Body might be One. And St. * * S. Aug. Epist. 50. Et it●rum Columbae non sunt qui Ecclesiam dissipant . Accipitres sunt , Milvi sunt : N●●●ani●● Columba , &c. S. Aug. tract ▪ 5. i● S. John . Augustine infers upon it ; That he is no way partaker of Divine Charity , that is an enemy to this Unity . Now what Errors in Doctrine may give just Cause of Separation in this Body , or the Parts of it one from another , were it never so easie to determine ( as I think it is most difficult ) I would not venture to set it down in particular , lest in these times of Discord , I might be thought to open a Door for Schism ; which surely I will never do , unless it be to let it out . But that there are Errors in Doctrine , and some of them such , as most manifestly endanger Salvation , in the Church of Rome , is evident to them that will not shut their Eyes . The proof whereof runs through the Particular Points , that are between us ; and so is too long for this Discourse . Now A. C. p. 55. here A. C. would fain have a Reason given him , Why I did endeavour to shew what Cause the Protestants had to make that Rent or Division , if I did not grant that they made it . Why truly in this reasonable demand I will satisfie him . I did it partly because I had granted in the general , that Corruption in Manners was no sufficient cause of Separation of one Particular Church from another ; and therefore it lay upon me , at least to Name in general what was : and partly because he , and his Party will needs have it so , that we did make the Separation : And therefore though I did not grant it , yet amiss I thought it could not be , to Declare by way of Supposition , that if the Protestants did at first Separate from the Church of Rome , they had reason so to do : For A. C. himself confesses , That Error in Doctrine A. C. p. 56. of the Faith is a just Cause of Separation ; so just , as that no Cause is just , but that . Now had I leasure to descend into Particulars , or will to make the Rent in the Church wider , 't is no hard matter to prove , that the Church of Rome hath erred in the Doctrine of Faith , and dangerously too : And I doubt I shall afterwards descend to Particulars , A. C. his Importunity forcing me to it .

Which when the General Church would not Reform , it was lawful for Particular Churches to Reform themselves .

§ 24 Num. 1 Is it then such a strange thing , that a Particular Church may reform it self , if the General will not ? I had thought , and do so still , That in Point of Reformation of ▪ either Manners , or Doctrine , it is lawful for the Church since Christ , to do as the Church before Christ did , and might do . The Church before Christ consisted of Jews and Proselytes : This Church came to have a Separation , upon a most ungodly Policie of † † 3 Reg. 12. 27. Jeroboam's , so that it never pieced together again . To a Common Councel , to reform all , they would not come . Was it not lawful for Judah to reform her self , when Israel would not joyn ? Sure it was , or else the Prophet deceives me , that says expresly , a a Hos. 4. 15. Though Israel transgress , yet let not Judah sin . And S. Hierome b b Super Haereticis prona intelligentia est . S. Hier. Ibid. expounds it of this very particular sin of Heresie , and Error in Religion . Nor can you say , that c c Non tam●● cessavit Deus & populum hunc argu●r● ▪ per Prophetas . Nam ibi ▪ extiterunt Magni ill● & insignes Prophetae Elias & Elizaeus , &c. S ▪ Aug. L. 17. de Civit. Dei , ● . 22. Multi religiosè intra se D●i ▪ cultum ▪ babebant , &c. De quo numero ●●●●mve Posteris septem illa ●illi● fuiss●●tatuo , q●● i● ▪ Persecutione sub A●hab● Deum si●i a● Id●lolatr●● ▪ immunes ▪ reservârunt , nec genua ante Baal flexerunt . Fran. Monceius , L. 1. de Vit. Aureo , c. 12. Israel from the time of the Separation was not a a Church ; for there were true Prophets in it ▪ d d 3 Reg. 17. sub Acha●o . Elias and e e 4 Reg. 3. sub Jehoram ●ilio Achabi . Elizaeus , and others , and f f 3 Reg. 19 ▪ 18. thousands that had not bowed knees to 〈◊〉 And there was Salvation for these ; which cannot be in the Ordinary way , where there is no Church . And God threatens g g Hos. 9. 17. to cast them away , to wander among ▪ the Nations , and be no Congregation , no ▪ Church : therefore he had not yet cast them away in Non Ecclesiam , into No-Church . And they are expresly called the People of the Lord in * * 4 Reg. 9. 6. 〈◊〉 time , and so continued long after . Nor can you plead ▪ that Judan is your part , and the Ten Tribes ours ( as some of you do ) for if that be true , you must grant that the Multitude and greater number is ours : and where then is Multitude , your ●●merous Note of the Church ? For the Ten Tribes were more than the two . But you cannot plead it . For certainly if any Calves be set up , they are in Dan and in Bethel : They are not ours .

Num. 2 Besides , to reform what is amiss in Doctrine , or Manners , is as lawful for a Particular Church , as it is to publish and promulgate any thing that is Catholike in either . And your Question , Quo Judice ? lies alike against both . And yet I think it may be proved , that the Church of Rome , and that as a Particular Church , did promulgate an Orthodox Truth , which was not then Catholikely admitted in the Church ; namely , The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son . If she erred in this Fact , confess her Error ; if she erred not , why may not another Particular Church do as she did ? A learned School-man of yours saith she may : * * Non ●portuit ad hoc e●s vocare , q●um Authoritas fu●rit publica●di apud Ecclesiam Romanam , pr●●ip●è cum unicuique etiam particulari Ecclesiae li●●at , id quod Catholicum est , prom●lgare . Alb. Magn. in 1. Dest . 11. A. 9. The Church of Rome needed not to call the Grecians to agree upon this Truth , since the Authority of publishing it was in the Church of Rome , especially since it is lawful for every particular Church to promulgate that which is Catholike . Nor can you say , he means Catholike , as fore-determined by the Church in general ; for so this Point , when Rome added Filioque to the Creed of a General Councel , was not . And how the Grecians were used in the after-Councel ( such as it was ) of Florence , is not to trouble this Dispute ; But Catholike stands there , for that which is so in the nature of it , and Fundamentally . Nor can you justly say ▪ That the Church of Rome did , or might do this , by the Pope's Authority over the Church ▪ For suppose he have that , and that his Sentence be Infallible , ( I say , suppose both , but I give neither ) yet neither his Authority , nor his Infallibility can belong unto him , as the particular Bishop of that S●a ▪ but as the * * Non ●●rare , conv●●it Popae , ●t est Caput . ●●●●a● . L. ● . de Rom. Po●t . c. 3. Ministerial Head of the whole Church . And you are all so lodged in this , that † † L. 2. de C●ri●t● , c. 〈◊〉 . ● . Quande au●●m . So you cannot find Records of your own Truthe , which are far more likely to be kept : but when Errors are e●ept 〈◊〉 , w● must be bound to tell the place , and the time , and I know not what , of their Beginnings , or else they are ▪ ●ot Errors . As if some Errors might ▪ not want a Record , as well as some Truth . Bellarmine professes he can neither tell the year when , nor the Pope under whom this Addition was made . A Particular Church then , if you judge it by the School of Rome , or the Practice of Rome , may publish any thing that is Catholike , where the whole Church is silent ; and may therefore Reform any thing that is not Catholike , where the whole Church is negligent , or will not .

Num. 3 But you are as jealous of the honour of Rome , as † † Omninò rectè , nisi excepisset , &c. Net consideravit quanti referat concederi Ecclesiis particularibus jus condendorum Canonum de Fide , inconsultâ Romanâ Sede , quod nunquam licuit , nunquant factum est , &c. Capel . de Appellat . Eccl. Africanae , c. 2. Nu. 12. Capellus is , who is angry with Baronius about certain Canons in the second Milevitane Councel , and saith , That he considered not of what consequence it was , to grant to Particular Churches the Power of making Canons of Faith , without consulting the Roman Sea , which ( as he saith , and you with him ) was never lawful , nor ever done . But suppose this were so , my Speech was not , Not consulting , but in Case of Neglecting , or Refusing : Or when the difficulty of Time and Place , or other Circumstances are such , that a ‖ ‖ Rex co●●itetur se voensse Concilium tertium Tolet anum ; Quia d●●●rs●s retro temporibus Haeresis immine●s in tota Eclesia Catholica agere Synodica Negotia denegabat , &c. Conc●l . Tole●an . tertium . Can. 1. General Councel cannot be called , or not convene . For that the Roman Sea must be consulted with , before any Reformation be made , First , most certain it is , Capellus can never prove . And secondly as certain , that were it proved and practised , we should have no Reformation : For it would be long enough , before the Church should be cured , if that Sea alone should be her Physitian , which in truth is her Disease .

Num. 4 Now if for all this you will say still , that a Provincial Councel will not suffice , but we should have born with Things , till the time of a General Councel . First , 't is true , a General Councel , free and entire , would have been the best Remedy , and most able for a Gangrene that had spread so far , and eaten so deep into Christianity . But what ? Should we have suffered this Gangrene to endanger life and all , rather than be cured in time by a Physitian of a weaker knowledge , and a less able Hand ? Secondly , We live to see since , if we had stayed and expected a General Councel , what manner of one we should have had , if any . For that at Trent was neither general , nor free . And for the Errors which Rome had contracted , it confirmed them , it cured them not . And yet I much doubt , whether ever that Councel ( such as it was ) would have been called , if some Provincial and National Synods under Supreme and Regal Power , had not first set upon this great work of Reformation ; Which I heartily wish had in all places been as Orderly and Happily pursued , as the Work was right Christian and good in it self . But humane frailty , and the Heats and Distempers of men , as well as the Cunning of the Devil , would not suffer that . For even in this sense also , The wrath of man doth not accomplish the will of God , S. James 1. But I have learned not to S. James 1. 20. reject the Good , which God hath wrought , for any evil which men may fasten to it .

Num. 5 And yet if for all this , you think 't is better for us to be blind , than to open our own eyes ; let me tell you , very Grave and Learned Men , and of your own Party , have taught me , That when the Universal Church will not , or for the Iniquities of the Times , cannot obtain and settle a free general Councel , 't is lawful , nay sometimes necessary to Reform gross Abuses by a National , or a Provincial . For , besides Alb. Magnus , whom I quoted * * §. 24. Nu. 2. before , Gerson , the Learned and devout Chancellor of Paris tells us plainly : † † Nole tamen dicere , quin in multis partibus possit Ecclesia per suas partes reformari . Imò hoc necesse esset , sed ad hoc agendum sufficerent Concilia Provincialia , &c. Gerson . Tract de Gen. Concil. unius obedientiae , parte 1. p. 222. F. That he will not deny , but that the Church may be reformed by parts . And that this is necessary , and that to effect it , Provincial Councels may suffice ; and in some things Diocesan . And again , ‖ ‖ Omnes Ecclesiae status aut in Generali Concilio reformetis , aut in Concilus Provincialibus reformari mandet●s . Gerson . Declarat . Defectuum Virorum Ecclesiasticorum , par. 1. pag. 209. B. Either you should reform all estates of the Church in a General Councel , or command them to be reformed in Provincial Councels . Now Gerson lived about two hundred years since . But this Right of Provincial Synods , that they might decree in Causes of Faith , and in Cases of Reformation , where Corruptions had crept into the Sacraments of Christ , was practised much above a thousand years ago by many , both National and Provincial Synods . For the * * Concil. Rom. 2. sub Sylvestro . Councel at Rome under Pope Sylvester , An. 324. condemned Photinus and Sabellius . ( And their Heresies were of high Nature against the Faith . ) The † † Concil. Gang. Can. 1. Councel at Gangra about the same time condemned Eustathius for his condemning of Marriage as unlawful . The ‖ ‖ Con. Carth. 1. Can. 1. first Councel at Carthage , being a Provincial , condemned Rebaptization , much about the year 348. The * * Con. Aquiliens . Provincial Councel at Aquileia in the year 381. in which S. Ambrose was present , condemned Palladius and Secundinus for embracing the Arrian Heresie . The † † Con. Carth. 2. Can. 1. second Councel of Carthage , handled and Decreed the Belief and Preaching of the Trinity ; And this a litte after the year 424. The * * Quaedam de causis fidei , unde nunc Quaestio Pelagianorum imminet , in hoc Coetu sanctissimo primisus tractentur , &c. Aurel . Carthaginensis in Praefat. Conc. Milivit . apud Caranzam . Councel of Milevis in Africa , in which S. Augustine was present , condemned the whole Course of the Heresie of Pelagius , that great and bewitching Heresie , in the year 416. The † † Conc. Aurausican 2. Can. 1 , 2 , &c. second Councel at Orange , a Provincial too , handled the great Controversies about Grace and Free-will , and set the Church right in them , in the year 444. The ‖ ‖ Conc. Tolet. 3. third Councel at Toledo ( a National one ) in the year 589. determined many things against the Arrian Heresie about the very Prime Articles of Faith , under fourteen several Anathema's . The fourth Councel at Toledo did not only handle Matters of Faith for the Reformation of that People , * * Quae omnia in aliis Symbolis explicitè tradit a non sunt , Concil. Tolet. 4. Can. 1. but even added also some things to the Creed , which were not expresly delivered in former Creeds . Nay the Bishops did not only practise this , to Condemn Heresies in National and Provincial Synods , and so Reform those several Places , and the Church it self by parts : But They did openly challenge this as their Right and Due , and that without any leave asked of the Sea of Rome . For in this Fourth Councel of Toledo † † Statuimus , ut saltem semel in Anno à Nobis Concilium celebretur , it à tamen , ut si Fidei Causa est , aut quaelibet alia Ecclesiae communis , Generalis Hispaniae & Galléciae Synodus celebretur , &c. Concil. Tolet. 4. Can. 3. They Decree , That if there happen a Cause of Faith to be setled , a General , that is , a National Synod of all Spain and Galicia shall be held thereon . And this in the year 643. Where you see , it was then Catholike Doctrine in all Spain , that a National Synod might be a Competent Judge in a Cause of Faith . And I would fain know , what Article of the Faith doth more concern all Christians in general , than that of Filióque ? And yet the Church of Rome her self made that Addition to the Creed without a General Councel , as I have shewed ‖ ‖ ● . 24. Nu. 2. already . And if this were practised so often , and in so many places , why may not a National Councel of the Church of England do the like ? as She did . For , She cast off the Pope's Usurpation , and as much as in her lay , restored the King to his right . That appears by a * * The Institution of a Christian man : Printed An. 1534. Book subscribed by the Bishops in Henry the eighth's time ; And by the † † In Synodo Londinensi , Sess. 8. Die Veneris . 29 Januarii A● . 1562. Records in the Arch-bishops Office , orderly kept , and to be seen . In the Reformation which came after , our ‖ ‖ And so in the Reformation under Hezekiah , 2 Chron. 29. and under Josia , 4 Reg. 23. And in the time of Reccaredus King of Spain , the Reformation there proceeded thus : Quùm gloriosissimus Princeps omnes Regiminis sui Pontifices in unum convenire mandâsset , &c. Concil. Tolet. 3. Can. 1. Can convenissemus Sacerdotes Domini apud urbem Toletanum , ut Regiis imperi is atque jussis commoniti , &c. Concil. Tolet. 4. in princ . apud ●ara●zam . And both these Synods did treat of Matters of Faith . Princes had their parts , and the Clergy theirs . And to these Two principally the power and direction for Reformation belongs . That our Princes had their parts , is manifest by their Calling together of the Bishops , and others of the Clergy , to consider of that which might seem worthy Reformation . And the Clergy did their part : For being thus called together by Regal Power , they met in the National Synod of sixty two . And the Articles there agreed on , were afterwards confirmed by Acts of State , and the Royal Assent . In this Synod the Positive Truths which are delivered , are more than the Polemicks . So that a meer Calumny it is , That we profess only a Negative Religion . True it is , and we must thank Rome for it , our Confession must needs contain some Negatives . For we cannot but deny that Images are to be adored . Nor can we admit Maimed Sacraments . Nor grant Prayers in an unknown tongue . And in a corrupt time , or place , 't is as necessary in Religion to deny falshood , as to assert , and vindicate Truth . Indeed this later can hardly be well and sufficiently done , but by the former ; an Affirmative Verity being ever included in the Negative to a Falshood . As for any Error which might fall into this ( as any other Reformation ) if any such can be found , then I say , and 't is most true : Reformation , especially in Cases of Religion , is so difficult a work , and subject to so many Pretensions , that 't is almost impossible but the Reformers should step too far , or fall too short , in some smaller things or other , which in regard of the far greater benefit coming by the Reformation it self , may well be passed over , and born withal . But if there have been any wilful , and gross errors , not so much in Opinion , as in Fact , ( * * Quisquis occasione hujus Legis , quam Reges terrae Christo servientes ad emendandam vestram impietatem promulgaverunt , res proprias vestras cupidè appetit , displicet nobis . Quisquis donique ipsas res pauperum , vel Basilicas Congregationum , &c. non per Justietam , sed per Avaritiam tenet , displicet nobis . S. Aug. Epist. 48. versus finem . Sacriledge too often pretending to reform Superstition ) that 's the Crime of the Reformers , not of the Reformation ; and they are long since gone to God to answer it , to whom I leave them .

Num. 6 But now before I go off from this Point , I must put you in remembrance too , That I spake at that time ( and so must all that will speak of that Exigent ) of the General Church as it was for the most part forced under the Government of the Roman Sea . And this you understand well enough . For in your very next words you call it the Roman Church . Now I make no doubt , but that as the Universal Catholike Church would have reform'd her self , had she been in all parts freed of the Roman Yoke : so while she was for the most in these Western parts under that yoke , the Church of Rome was , if not the Only , yet the Chief Hinderance of Reformation . And then in this sense , it is more than clear , That if the Roman Church will neither Reform , nor suffer Reformation , it is lawful for any other Particular Church to Reform it self , so long as it doth it peaceably and orderly , and keeps it self to the Foundation , and free from * * And this a Particular Church may do , but not a Schism . For a Schism can never be peaceable , nor orderly , and seldom free from Sacriledge . Out of which respects , ( it may be ) as well as for the grievousness of the Crime , S. Aug. calls it Sacrilegium Schismatis , L. 1. de Bapt. cont. Donat. c. 8. For usually they go together . Sacriledge .

I asked Quo Judice , did this appear to be so ? Which Question I asked , as not thinking it equity that Protestants in their own Cause should be Accusers , Witnesses , and Judges of the Roman Church .

§ . 25 Num. 1 You do well to tell the reason now , why you asked this Question ; For you did not discover it at the Conference : if you had , you might then have received your Answer . It is most true : No man in common equity ought to be suffered to be Accuser , Witness , and Judge in his own Cause . But is there not as little reason , and equity too , that any man that is to be accused , should be the Accused , and yet Witness , and Judge in his own Cause ? If the first may hold , no man shall be Innocent ; and if the last , none will be Nocent . And what do we here with [ in their own Cause against the Roman Church ? ] Why ? Is it not your own too , against the Protestant Church ? And if it be a Cause common to both , as certain it is , then neither Part alone may be Judge : If neither alone may judge , then either they must be judged by a * * ● . 21. Nu. 9. Third which stands indifferent to both , and that is the Scripture ; or if there be a jealousie or Doubt of the sense of the Scripture , they must either both repair to the Exposition of the Primitive Church , and submit to that ; or both call , and submit to a General Councel , which shall be lawfully called , and fairly , and freely held with indifferencie to all parties ; And that must judge the Difference according to Scripture , which must be their Rule as well as Private Mens .

Num. 2 And here after some lowd Cry against the Pride and Insolent madness of the Protestants , A. C. adds , That the Church of Rome A. C. p. 58. is the Principal , and Mother-Church : And that therefore , though it be against common equity , that Subjects and Children should be Accusers , Witnesses , Judges , and Executioners against their Prince and Mother in any case : yet it is not absurd , that in some cases , the Prince or Mother may Accuse , Witness , Judge , and if need be , execute Justice , against unjust and rebellious Subjects , or evil Children . How far forth Rome is a Prince over the whole Church , or a Mother of it , will come to be shewed at after . In the mean time , though I cannot grant her to be either , yet let 's suppose her to be both , that A. C's Argument may have all the strength it can have . Nor shall it force me ( as plausible as it seems ) to weaken the just power of Princes over their Subjects , or of Mothers over their Children , to avoid the shock of this Argument . For though A. C. may tell us 't is not absurd in some Cases ; yet I would fain have him name any one Moderate Prince that ever thought it just , or took it upon him to be Accuser , and Witness , and Judge in any Cause of moment against his Subjects , but that the Law had Liberty to Judge between them . For the great Philosopher tells us , * * 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Arist. Eth. c. 6. That the Chief Magistrate is Custos juris , the Guardian and keeper of the Law ; and if of the Law , then both of that equity and equality which is due unto them that are under him . And even Tiberius himself , in the Cause of Silanus , when Dolabella would have flatter'd him into more power than in wisdom he thought fit then to take to himself , he put him off thus : No , † † Minni Jur● quoties gliscat Potestas , nec utendum Imperio , ●●i ▪ Legibus agi possit . Tacit. L. 3. Annal. the Laws grow less where such Power enlarges . Nor is absolute Power to be used , where there may be an orderly proceeding by Law . And for ‖ ‖ Heb. 12. 9. Parents , 't is true , when Children are young , they may chastise them without other Accuser , or Witness , than themselves ; and yet the children are to give them reverence . And 't is presumed that natural affection will prevail so far with them , that they will not punish them too much . For all experience tells us ( almost to the loss of Education ) they * * God used Samuel as a Messenger against ●li for his over-much indulgence to his sons , 1 Sam. 3. 13. And yet Samuel himself committed the very same fault concerning his own sons , 1 Sam. 8. 3. 5. And this Indulgence occasioned the Change of the Civil Government , as the former was the loss of the Priesthood . punish them too little , even when there is cause . Yet when Children are grown up , and come to some full use of their own Reason ; the Apostles Rule is † † Colos. 3. 21. Colos. 3. Parents , provoke not your Children . And if the Apostle prevail not with froward Parents , there 's a Magistrate , and a Law to relieve even a son against ‖ ‖ Crimini ei tribunus inter caetera dabat , quod 〈◊〉〈◊〉 mallius probri compertum , extorrem urbe , domo , penatibus , soro , lu●e , congressu aequalium prohibitum , in opus servile , prope in carcerem , atque in ergastulum dederit . Liv. dec. 1. l. 7. unnatural Parents : as it was in the Case of T. Manlius against his over-Imperious Father . And an express Law there was among the Jews , * * Deut. 21. 19. Deut. 21. when Children were grown up and fell into great extremities , that the Parents should then bring them to the Magistrate , and not be too busie in such cases with their own Power . So suppose Rome be a Prince , yet her Subjects must be tryed by Gods Law , the Scripture : and suppose her a Mother ; yet there is , or ought to be Remedy against her for her Children that are grown up , if she forget all good Nature , and turn Stepdame to them .

Num. 3 Well ; the Reason why the Jesuite asked the Question , Quo Judice ? Who should be Judge ? He says was this ; Because there 's no equity in it , that the Protestants should be Judges in their own Cause . But now upon more Deliberation A. C. A. C. p. 57. tells us ( as if he knew the Jesuites mind as well as himself ; as sure I think he doth ) That the Jesuite directed this Question chiefly against that speech of mine , That there were Errors in Doctrine of Faith , and that in the General Church , as the Jesuite understood my meaning . The Jesuite here took my meaning right . For I confess I said there were Errors in Doctrine , and dangerous ones too , in the Church of Rome . I said likewise , that when the General Church could not , or would not Reform such , it was lawful for Particular Churches to Reform themselves . But then I added , That the General Church ( not universally taken , but in these Western parts ) fell into those Errors , being swayed in these later Ages by the predominant Power of the Church of Rome , under whose Government it was for the most part forced . And all men of understanding know how oft , and how easily an Over-potent . Member carries the whole with it , in any Body , Natural , Politick , or Ecclesiastical .

Num. 4 Yea but A. C. tells us , That never any Competent Judge did so censure the Church ; And indeed , that no Power on Earth , or A. C. p. 57. in Hell it self , can so far prevail against the General Church as to make it Erre generally in any one Point of Divine Truth , and much less to teach any thing by its full Authority to be a Matter of Faith , which is contrary to Divine Truth expressed , or involved in Scriptures rightly understood . And that therefore no Reformation of Faith can be needful in the General Church , but only in Particular Churches . And for proof of this he cites S. Mat. 16. and 28. S. Luk. 22. S. John 14. and 16. In this troublesome and quarrelling Age , I am most unwilling to meddle with the Erring of the Church in general . The Church of England is content to pass that over . And though * * Art. 19. She tells us , That the Church of Rome hath Erred even in matters of Faith ; yet of the Erring of the Church in general She is modestly silent . But since A. C. will needs have it , That the whole Church did never generally Erre in any one Point of Faith , he should do well to Distinguish , before he be so peremptory . For if he mean no more than that the whole Universal Church of Christ cannot universally Erre in any one Point of Faith simply necessary to all mens salvation , he fights against no Adversary , that I know , but his own fiction . For the most † † Si demus errare non posse Ecclesiam in rebus ad salutem necessariis , hic sensus noster est : Ideo hoc . esse , quia abdicarâ omni suâ sapientiâ , a Spiritu Sancto doceri se per Verbum Dei patitur . Calv. L. 4. Inst. c. 8. S. 13. And this also is our sense . Vide sup. S. 21. Nu. 5. Lear ned Protestants grant it . But if he mean , that the whole Church cannot Erre in any one Point of Divine Truth in general , which though by sundry Consequences deduced from the Principles , is yet made a Point of Faith , and may prove dangerous to the Salvation of some , which believe it , and practise after it , ( as his words seem to import ) especially , if in these the Church shall presume to determine without her proper Guide , the Scripture , as * * Nostra sententia est , Ecclesiam absolutè non posse errart , nec in rebus absolutè necessariie , nec in aliis quae credenda vel facienda nobis proponit , sive babeantur expressè in Scripturis , sive non , Bellar. L. 3. de Eccl. Mil. c. 14 §. 5. A. C. p. 58. Bellarm. says , She may , and yet not Erre . Then perhaps it may be said , and without any wrong to the Catholike Church , that the Whole Militant Church hath erred in such a Point of Divine Truth and of Faith . Nay A. C. confesses expresly in his very next words , That the Whole Church may at some time not know all Divine Truths , which afterwards it may learn by study of Scripture , and otherwise . So then in A. C's . judgment , the Whole Militant Church may at some time not know all Divine Truths . Now that which knows not all , must be ignorant of some ; and that which is ignorant of some , may possibly erre in one Point or other ; The rather , because he confesses the knowledge of it must be got by Learning ; and Learners may mistake and erre ; especially where the Lesson is Divine Truth out of Scripture , out of Difficult Scripture . For were it of plain and easie Scripture that he speaks , the Whole Church could not at any time be without the knowledge of it . And for ought I yet see , the Whole Church Militant hath no greater warrant against Not erring in , than against Not knowing of the Points of Divine Truth . For in 8. John 16. There is as S. Joh. 16. 13. large a Promise to the Church of knowing all Points of Divine Truth , as A. C. or any Jesuite can produce for Her Not erring in any . And if She may be ignorant , or mistaken in learning of any Point of Divine Truth , Doubtless in that state of Ignorance she may both Erre , and teach her Error , yea and teach that to be Divine Truth , which is not : Nay perhaps teach that as a Matter of Divine Truth , which is contrary to Divine Truth ; Always provided it be not in any Point simply Fundamental , of which the Whole Catholike Church cannot be Ignorant , and in which it cannot Erre , as hath * * §. 21. N. 5. before been proved .

Num. 5 As for the Places of Scripture which A. C. cites to prove that the Whole Church cannot Erre Generally in any one Point of Divine A. C. p. 57. Truth , be it Fundamental or not , they are known Places all of them , and are alledged by A. C. three several times in this A. C. p. 57. short Tract , and to three several purposes . Here , to prove , That the Universal Church cannot Erre . Before this , to prove , A. C. p. 53. that the Tradition of the present Church cannot Erre . After this , to prove , that the Pope cannot Erre . He should have done A. C. p. 58 & 73. well to have added these Places a fourth time , to prove that General Councels cannot Erre . For so doth both * * Stapl Relect. praef. ad Lectorem . Stapleton and † † Bellar. ● . 2. de Concil. c. 2. Bellarmine . Sure A. C. and his fellows are hard driven , when they must fly to the same Places for such different purposes . For A Pope may Erre , where a Councel , doth not ; And a General Councel may Erre , where the Catholike Church cannot . And therefore it is not likely that these places should serve alike for all . The first Place is Saint Matthew 16. There Christ told S. Mat. 16. 18. Saint Peter , and we believe it most assuredly , That Hell-Gates shall never be able to prevail against his church . But that is , That they shall not prevail to make the Church Catholike Apostatize , and fall quite away from Christ , or Erre in absolute Fundamentals , which amounts to as much . But the Promise reaches not to this , that the Church shall never Erre , no not in the lightest matters of Farth , For it will not follow : Hell-Gates shall not prevail against the Church ; Therefore Hellish Devils shall not tempt , or assault , and batter it . And thus Saint * * Puguare potest , Expugnari non potest , S. Aug. L. de Symb. ad Catecum , c. 6. Augustine understood the place . It may fight ( yea and be wounded too ) but it cannot be wholly overcome . And Bellarmine himself applies it to prove , † † Bellar. L. 3. de Eccl. Milit. c. 13. §. 1. &c. That the Visible Church of Christ cannot deficere , Erre so , as quite to fall away . Therefore in his judgment , this is a true , and a safe sense of this Text of Scripture . But as for not Erring at all , in any Point of Divine Truth , and so making the Church absolutely Infallible , that 's neither a true , nor a safe sense of this Scripture . And 't is very remarkable , that whereas this Text hath been so much beaten upon by Writers of all sorts , there is no one Father of the Church for twelve hundred years after Christ ( the Counterfeit or Partial Decretals of some Popes excepted ) that ever concluded the Infallibility of the Church out of this Place : but her Non deficiencie , that hath been , and is justly deduced hence . And here I challenge A. C. and all that party to shew the contrary , if they can . The next Place of Scripture is Saint Matthew 28. S Mat. 28. 21. The Promise of Christ that he will be with them to the end of the World . But this in the general voyce of the * * S. Hil. in Psal. 124. Prosp. L. 2. de vocat . Gent. c. 2. Leo Ser. 2. de Resur , Dom. c. 3. & Ep. 31. Isidor . in Jos. 1● . Fathers of the Church is a promise of Assistance and Protection , not of an Infallibility of the Church . And † † In omnibus que Ministris suis commisit exequenda , S. Leo , Epist. 91. c. 2. Pope Leo himself enlarges this presence and providence of Christ to all those things which he committed to the execution of his Ministers . But no word of Infallibility is to be found there . And indeed since Christ according to his Prowise is present with his Ministers in all these things , and that one and a Chief of these All is the preaching of his Word to the People ; It must follow , That Christ should be present with all his Ministers that Preach his Word , to make them Infallible ; which daily Experience tells us , is not so . The third Place urged by A. C. is S. Luke S. Luk. 22. 32. 22. Where the Prayer of Christ will effect no more than his Promise hath performed ; neither of them implying an Infallibility for , or in the Church against all Errors whatsoever . And this almost all his own side confess is spoken either of S. Peter's person only , or of him and his Successors * * Bellar. L. 4. de Rom. P●nt . c. 3. S. Est igitur tertia . He understood the place of both S. Peter and his Successors . both . Of the Church it is not spoken , and therefore cannot prove an unerring Power in it . For how can that place prove the Church cannot Erre , which speaks not at all of the Church ? And 't is observable too , that when the Divines of Paris expounded this Place , that Christ here prayed for S. Peter , as he represented the Whole Catholike Church , and obtained for it that the Faith of the Catholike Church nunquam desiceret , should never so erre , as quite to fall away ; † † Que Expositio falsa est , Primò quia , &c. Bell. ibid. §. 2. And he says 't is false because the Parisians expounded it of the Church only . Volunt enim pro sold Ecclesi● esse eratum , Ibid. §. 1. Bellarmine is so stiff for the Pope , that he says expresly , This Exposition of the Parisians is false , and that this Text cannot be meant of the Catholike Church . Not be meant of it ? Then certainly it ought not to be alledged as Proof of it , as here it is by A. C. The fourth Place named by A. C. is S. John 14. And the consequent Place to it S. John A. C. p. 57. S. John 14. 16 , 17. S. Joh. 16. 13. 16. These Places contain another Promise of Christ concerning the coming of the Holy Ghost . Thus : That the Comforter shall abide with them for ever . That this Comforter is the Spirit of Truth . And , That this Spirit of Truth will lead them into all Truth . Now this Promise as it is applied to the Church consisting of all Believers which are and have been since Christ appeared in the Flesh , including the Apostles , is † † Field , L 4. de Eccles. c. 2. free from all error and ignorance of Divine things . absolute , and without any Restriction . For , the Holy Ghost did lead them into all Truth , so that no Error was to be found in that Church . But as it is appliable to the whole Church Militant in all succeeding times , so the Promise was made with a Limitation , ‖ ‖ And Theodoret proceeds father , and says , Neque divini Prophetae , neque mirabiles Apostoli omnia praesciverunt . Quaecunque enim expediebant , ea illis significavit gratid Spiritûs . Theod. in 1 Tim. 3. v. 14 , 15. namely , that the Blessed Spirit should abide with the Church for ever , and lead it into all Truth ; but not simply into all Curious Truth , no not in or about the Faith , but into all Truth necessary to Salvation . And against this Truth the Whole Catholike Church cannot erre , keeping her self to the direction of the Scripture , as Christ hath appointed her . For in this very Place where the Promise is made , That the Holy Ghost shall teach you all things , 't is added , that He shall bring all things to their remembrance . What ? simply all things ? No : But all things which Christ had told them , S. John 14. So there is a Limitation S. Joh. 14. 26. put upon the words by Christ himself . And if the Church will not erre , it must not ravel Curiously into unnecessary Truths , which are out of the Promise , nor follow any other Guide than the Doctrine which Christ hath lest behind him to govern it . For if it will come to the End , it must keep in the Way . And Christ who promised the Spirit should lead , hath no where promised that it shall follow its Leader into all Truth , and at least not Infallibly , unless you will Limit , as before . So , no one of these Places can make good A. C.'s Assertion , That the whole Church cannot erre Generally in any 〈◊〉 Point of 〈◊〉〈◊〉 . In Absolute Foundations * * §. 21. Nu. 5. she cannot : in Deductions and superstructures she may .

Num. 6 Now to all that I have said concerning the Right which Particular Churches have to Reform themselves ▪ when the General Church cannot for Impediments ▪ or will not for Negligence , which I have proved at large * * §. 24. Nu. 1 , 2 , &c. before ▪ All the Answer that A. C. gives , is , First , Quo Judice ? Who shall be Judge ? And that shall be the Scripture , and the † † Si de 〈…〉 set , nonne oporteret in 〈◊〉 recur●ere Ecclesias , Traditionis ? &c. 〈◊〉 L. ● . advers. Haeres . c. 4. Primitive Church ▪ And by the A. C. p. ●7 . ● Rules of the one , and to the Integrity of the other ▪ both in Faith and Manners , any Particular Church may safely Reform it self .

Num. 7 Secondly , That no Reformation in Faith can be needful in the General Church , but only in Particular Churches . In which Case also ( he saith ) Particular Churches may not take upon A. C. p. 58. them to Judge and Condemn others of Errors in Faith . Well , how far forth Reformation even of Faith may be necessary in the General Church , I have expressed * * §. 25. Nu. 4. already . And for Particular Churches , I do not say , that they must take upon them to Judge or Condemn others of Error in Faith . That which I say , is , They may Reform themselves . Now I hope , to Reform themselves , and to Condemn others , are two different Words , unless it fall out so , that by Reforming themselves ▪ they do by consequence Condemn any other , that is guilty in that Point , in which they Reform themselves ; and so far to Judge and Condemn others , is not only lawful , but necessary . A man that lives religiously , doth not by and by sit in Judgment , and Condemn with his mouth all Prophane Livers : But yet while he is silent , his very Life ▪ condemns them . And I hope in this way of Judicature , A. C. dares not say 't is unlawful for a particular Church or man to Condemn another . And 〈◊〉 whatsoever A. C. can say to the contrary , there are divers Cases , where Heresies are known ▪ and notorious , in which it will be hard to say ( as he doth ) That one Particular Church must A. C. p. 58. not Judge or Condemn another so far forth at 〈◊〉 , as to 〈◊〉 and protest against the Heresie of it .

Num. 8 Thirdly , If one Particular Church may not Judge or Condemn another , what must then be done , where Particulars need Reformation ? What ? Why then A. C. tells us , That Particular A. C. p. 58. Churches must in that Case ( as Irenaeus intimateth ) have recourse to the Church of Rome , which hath more powerful sub Principality ,

the Principality of an Apostolike Chair : Or , if you will , the Apostolike Chair , in relation to the West and South parts of the Church , all the other four Apostolike Chairs being in the East . Now this no man denies , that understands the state and story of the Church . And * * Quia Opinio inval●it ●undatam esse hanc Ecclesiam ● S. Petro ●taque in Occidente Sedes Apostolica Hon●ris caus● vo●abatur . Calv. L. 4. c. 6. §. 16. Calvin confesses it expresly . Nor is the Word Principatus so great , nor were the Bishops of those times so little , as that Principes and Principatus are not commonly given them both by the † † Princeps Ecclesiae , S. Hilar. l. 8. de Trin. Prin. And he speaks of a Bishop in gener●● . Greg. Nazianz. Orat. 17. Ascribuntur Episcopo 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Imperium , Thronus , & Principatus ad regimen 〈◊〉 ▪ Et ▪ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , hujus●odi Imp●rium . And he also speaks of a Bishop , Greg. Nazianz. Grat. 20. Nor were these any Titles of pride in Bishops then . For S. Greg. Nazianz. who challenges these Titles to himself , Orat. 17. was so devout , so mild , and so humble , that rather than the Peace of the Church should be broken , he freely resigned the Great Patriarchate of Constantinople , and retired ; and this in the First Councel of Constantinople , and the Second General . Greek and the Latine Fathers of this great and Learnedst Age of the Church made up of the fourth and fifth hundred years , always understanding Principatus of their Spiritual Power , and within the Limits of their several ▪ Jurisdictions , which perhaps now and then they did occasionally exceed . And there is not one word in S. Augustine , That this Principality of the Apostolike Chair in the Church of Rome was then , or ought to be now exercised over the whole Church of Christ , as Bellarmine insinuates there , and as A. C. would have it here . And to prove that S. Augustine did not intend by Principatus here to give the Roman Bishop any Power out of his own Limits ( which God knows were far short of the whole Church ) I shall make it most manifest out of the very same Epistle . For afterwards ( saith S. Augustine ) when the pertinacie of the Donatists could not be restrained by the African Bishops only , ‖ ‖ 〈◊〉 ad ●ratres & Colleg●s 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Ecclesiarum Episcopos , &c. S. Aug. Ep. 16● . they gave them leave to be beard by forein Bishops . And after that he hath these words : * * An fort● non deb●it Roman● Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 Episcopus cum Collegis transmarinis Episcopis illud sibi usurpar● judicium quod ab Afris 〈◊〉 , ubi Pri●as Tigisitanus pr●sedit , fuerit terminatum ? Quid quod nec ipse usurpavit ▪ Rogatus quipp● Imperator , Judices ●is●t 〈◊〉 , qui cum 〈◊〉〈◊〉 , & d● tot● ill● 〈◊〉 , quod jus●●● vider●tur , 〈◊〉 , &c. S. Aug. Ibid. And yet peradventure Melciades the Bishop of the Roman Church , with his Colleagues , the Transmarine Bishops , non debuit , ought not usurp to himself this Judgment which was determined by seventy African Bishops , Tigisitanus sitting Primate . And what will you say , if he did not usurp this Power ? For the Emperor being desired , sent Bishops Judges , which should sit with him , and determine what was just upon the whole Cause . In which Passage there are very many things Observeable . As first , that the Roman Prelate came not in , till there was leave for them to go to Transmarine Bishops . Secondly , that if the Pope had come in without this Leave , it had been an Usurpation . Thirdly , that when he did thus come in , not by his own Proper Authority , but by Leave , there were other Bishops made Judges with him . Fourthly , that these other Bishops were appointed , and sent by the Emperor and his Power ; that which the Pope will least of all indure . Lastly , lest the Pope and his Adherents should say this was an Usurpation in the Emperor , * * Ad cujus Curam , de quâ rationem Deo r●ddit●rus est , res illa maximè pertinebat . S. Aug. Epist. 162. S. Aug. tells us a little before , in the same Epistle still , that this doth chiefly belong ad Curam ejus , to the Emperors Care and charge , and that He is to give an Account to God for it . And Melciades did sit and Judge the Business with all Christian Prudence and Moderation . So at this time the Roman Prelate was not received as Pastor of the whole Church , say A. C. what he please . Nor had he any Supremacie over the other Patriarchs : And for this , were all other Records of Antiquity silent , the Civil Law is proof enough , ( And that 's a Monument of the Primitive Church . ) The Text there is , † † Nam contra horum Antistitum ( de Patriarchis loquitur ) Sententias , non esse locum Appellation●● Majoribus nostris constitutum est . Co● . L. 1. Tit. 4. L. 29. ex editione Gothofredi . Si non rata habuerit utraque Pars , que Judicata sunt , tun● Beatissimus Patriarcha Diocese●s illius , inter eos audiat , &c. Nulla parte ejus Sententiae contradi●ere valente . Authen . Collat. 9. Tit. 1● . C. 22. A Patriarchâ non datur Appellatio . From a Patriarch there lies no Appeal . No Appeal . Therefore every Patriarch was alike Supreme in his own Patriarchate . Therefore the Pope then had no Supremacie over the whole Church . Therefore certainly not then received as Universal Pastor . And S. Gregory himself speaking of Appeals , and expresly citing the Laws themselves , says plainly , * * Et ille ( scilicet Patriarcha ) secundum Canones , & Leges praebeat finem . And there he cites the Novel its self . S. Greg L. 11. Indict . ● . Epist. 54. That the Patriarch is to put a final end to those Causes , which come before him by Appeal from Bishops and Archbishops : but then he adds , † † Si dictum fuerit , quod nec Metropolita●um habeat , nec Patriarcham : dicendum est , quòd à Sede Apostolicà , quae omnium Ecclesiarum Caput est , causa a●dienda est , &c. S. Greg. Ibid. That where there is nor Metropolitan , nor Patriarch of that Diocess , there they are to have recourse to the Sea Apostolike , as being the Head of all Churches . Where first this implies plainly , That if there be a Metropolitan , or a Patriarch in those Churches , his Judgment is final ; and there ought to be no Appeal to Rome . Secondly , 'T is as plain , That in those Ancient times of the Church-Government , Britain was never subject to the Sea of Rome . For it was one of the ‖ ‖ Notitia Provinciarum Occidentalium , per Guidum Pancirolum , l. 2. c. 48. Six Diocesses of the West Empire , and had a Primate of its own : Nay , * * Hunc cunctis Liberalium Artium disciplinis eraditum pro Magistro t●●eamus , & quasi Comparem , velut alterius Orbis Apostolic●m & Patriarcham , &c. Jo. Capgravius de Vitis Sanctorum , in vitâ S. Anselm● . Et Guil. Malmesburiens . de Gestis Po●●ificum Anglorum , p. 223. Edit. Franco● . 1601. John Capgrave , one of your own , and Learned for those times , and long before him William of Malmesbury tell us , that Pope Urban the second , at the Councel held at Bar● in Apulia , accounted my Worthy Predecessor S. Anselm , as his own Compeer , and said he was as the Apostolike , and Patriarch of the other world . ( So he then termed this Island . ) Now the Britains having a Primate of their own ( which is greater than a Metropolitan ) yea a * * Ibi ( Cantuaria id est ) prima Sedes Arcniepiscopi habetur , qui est totius Angliae Prima● & Patriarcha . Guil. Malmesburiensis in Prolog . Lib. 1. de Gestis Ponti●icum Anglorum , p. 195. Patriarch , if you will , He could not be Appealed from , to Rome , by S. Gregorie's own Doctrine . Thirdly , it will be hard for any man to prove , there were any Churches then in the World , which were not under some either Patriarch , or Metropolitane . Fourthly , if any such were , 't is gratis dictum , and impossible to be proved , that all such Churches , where ever seated in the world , were obliged to depend on Rome . For manifest it is , that the Bishops which were Ordained in places without the Limits of the Roman Empire ( which places they commonly called * * Praeterea & qui sunt 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , in Barbarico , Episcopi à Sanctissim● Thro●o Sanctissi●● Constantinopolit●●● Ecclesiae Ordinintur . Codex Canonum Ecclesiae universae , Can. 206. And Justellus proves it there at large , that by in Barbarico , in that Canon , is meant in Solo Barbarorum . Annot. Ibid. Barbarous ) were all to be Ordained , and therefore most probable to be governed by the Patriarch of Constantinople . And for Rome's being the Head of all Churches , I have said enough to that in divers parts of this Discourse .

Num. 11 And since I am thus fallen upon the Church of Africk , I shall borrow another reason from the Practice of that Church , why by Principatus , S. Augustine neither did , nor could mean any Principality of the Church , or Bishop of Rome over the Whole Church of Christ . For as the Acts of Councels and Stories go , the African Prelates finding that all succeeding Popes were not of Melciades his temper , set themselves to assert their own Liberties , and held it out stoutly against Zozimus , Boniface the first , and Coelestine the first , who were successively Popes of Rome . At last it was concluded in the sixth Councel of Carthage ( wherein were assembled two hundred and seventeen Bishops , of which S. Augustine himself was one ) that they would not give way to such a manifest incroachment upon their Rights and Liberties ; and thereupon gave present notice to Pope Coelestine to forbear sending his Officers amongst them , * * N●●umosum typhum seculi in Ecclesiam Christi videatur inducere , &c. Epist. Concil. Asric . ad Papam Coelestinum Primum . Apud Nicolin . Tom. 1. Concil. p. 844. lest he should seem to induce the swelling pride of the world into the Church of Christ . And this is said to have amounted into a formal Separation from the Church of Rome , and to have continued for the space of somewhat more than one hundred years . Now that such a Separation there was of the African Church from Rome , and a Reconciliation after , stands upon the Credit and Authority of two publike Instruments extant both among the Ancient Councels . The one is an † † Epist. Bonifacii 2. apud ●col . Tom. 2. Concil. p. 544. Epistle from Boniface the Second , in whose time the Reconciliation to Rome is said to be made by Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage , but the Separation , instigan●e Diabolo , by the Temptation of the Devil . The other is an * * Exemp. Precum apud Nicolin . Ibid. p. 525. Exemplar Precum , or Copy of the Petition of the same Eulalius , in which he damns and curses all those his Predecessors which went against the Church of Rome . Amongst which Eulalius must needs Curse S. Augustine ; And Pope Boniface accepting this Submission ▪ must acknowledge that S. Augustine and the rest of that Councel deserved this Curse , and dyed under it , as violating Rectae Fidei Regulam , the Rule of the Right Faith ( so the Exemplar Precum begins ) by refusing the Popes Authority . I will not deny , but that there are divers Reasons given by the Learned Romanists and Reformed Writers for and against the Truth and Authority of both these Instruments . But because this is too long to be examin'd here , I will say but this , and then make my use of it to my present purpose , giving the Church of Rome free leave to acknowledge these Instruments to be true or false , as they please . That which I shall say , is this : These Instruments are let stand in all Editions of the Councels and Epistles Decretal . As for Example , in the Old Edition by Isidor , Anno 1524. And in another Old Edition of them Printed , Anno 1530. And in that which was published by P. Crabbe , Anno 1538. And in the Edition of Valentinus Joverius , Anno 1555. And in that by Surius , Anno 1567. And in the Edition at Venice by Nicolinus , Anno 1585. And in all of these without any Note , or Censure upon them . And they are in the Edition of Binius too , Anno 1618. but there 's a Censure upon them , to keep a quarter it may be with † † Baron . Annal. An. ad 49. Nu. 93 , 94. Baronius , who was the first ( I think ) that ever quarrelled them , and he doth it tartly . And since ‖ ‖ Valde mihi illae Epistolae suspect● sunt ▪ Bellar. L. 2. de Rom. Pont. c. 2● . §. Respondeo primùm . Sed si fortè illae Epistolae ver● sunt , nihil enim affirmo , &c. Ibid. §. ult. Bellarmine follows the same way , but more doubtfully . This is that which I had to say . And the Use which I shall make of these Instruments , whether they be true or false , is this . They are either true or false , that is of necessity . If they be false , then Boniface the Second , and his Accomplices at Rome , or some for them , are notorious Forgers , and that of Records of great Consequence concerning the Government and Peace of the whole Church of Christ , and to the perpetual Infamy of that Sea ; and all this foolishly , and to no purpose . For if there were no such Separation , as these Records mention of the African Churches from the Roman , to what end should Boniface , or any other , counterfeit an Epistle of his own , and a Submission of Eulalius ? On the other side , if these Instruments be true ( as the sixth Councel of Carthage against all other Arguments makes me incline to believe they are , in Substance at least , though perhaps not in all Circumstances ) then 't is manifest , that the Church of Africk separated from the Church of Rome ; That this Separation continued above one hundred years ; That the Church of Africk made this Separation in a National Councel of their own , which had in it two hundred and seventeen Bishops : That this Separation was made ( for ought appears ) only because they at Rome were too ready to entertain Appeals from the Church of Africk , as appears in the Case of * * And so the Councel of Carthage sent word to Pope Coelestint plainly , that in admitting such Appeals , he brake the Decrees of the Councel of Ni●t . Epist. Concil. Africa . ad Caelestinum , c. 105. Apud Nicolin . Tom. 1. Concil. p. 844. Apiarius , who then appealed thither : That S. Augustine , Eugenius , Fulgentius , and all those Bishops , and other Martyrs which suffered in the Vandalike Persecution , dyed in the time of this Separation : That if this Separation were not just , but a Schism , then these Famous Fathers of the Church dyed ( for ought appears ) in Actual and unrepented Schism , † † Planè ex Ecclesia Catholicae albo Expung●nda fuissent Sanctorum Africanorum Martyrum Agm●na , qui in persecutione Vandalica pro Fide Catholica ▪ &c. Baron . An. 419. Num. 93. Et Binius , In Notis ad Epist. Bonifacii 2. ad Eulalium . and out of the Church . And if so , then how comes S. Augustine to be , and be accounted a Saint all over the Christian world , and at Rome it self ? But if the Separation were just , then is it far more lawfull for the Church of England by a National Councel to cast off the Popes Usurpation ( as * * §. 24. Nu. 5. She did ) then it was for the African Church to separate ; Because then the African Church excepted only against the Pride of Rome † † Bel. l. 2. de Rom. Po●● . c. 25. §. 2. in Case of Appeals , and two other Canons less material ; But the Church of England excepts ( besides this Grievance ) against many Corruptions in Doctrine belonging to the Faith , with which Rome at that time of the African Separation was not tainted . And I am out of all doubt , that S. Augustine and those other Famous men in their generations , durst not thus have separated from Rome , had the Pope had that powerful Principality over the whole Church of Christ ; And that by Christs own Ordinance and Institution , as A. C. pretends he had . A. C. p. 58.

Num. 12 I told you a little * * §. 25. Nu. 10. before , that the Popes grew under the Emperors , till they had over-grown them . And now lest A. C. should say , I speak it without proof , I will give you a brief touch of the Church-story in that behalf : And that from the beginning of the Emperors becoming Christians , to the time of Charles the Great , which contains about five hundred years . For so soon as the Emperors became Christian , the Church ( which before was kept under by Persecutions ) began to be put in better Order . For the calling and Authority of Bishops over the Inferior Clergy , that was a thing of known use , and benefit for Preservation of Unity and Peace in the Church . And so much * * Quod autem postea Unus electus est qui caeteris praepon●retur , in Schismatis remedium , factum est , ●e unus quisque ad se tra●●●s Christi Ecclesiam ru●peret . Nam & Alexandriae à Marco Evangelista Presbyteri semper unum ex●se ▪ electum in excellentiori gradu collocatum . Episcopum nominabant , &c. S. Hieron . in Epist. ad Evagrium . So even according to S. Hierom , Bishops had a very ancient and honourable descent in the Church from S. Mark the Evangelist . And about the end of the same Epistle , he acknowledges it . Traditionem esse Apostolicam . Nay , more then so , He affirms plainly ▪ That Ubi non est Sacerdos , non est Ecclesia . S. Hieron . advers. Luciferian . And in that place most manifest it is that S. Jerom by Sacerdos means a Bishop . For he speaks de Sacerdote qui potestatem habet Ordinandi , which in S. Jeroms own Judgment no meer Priest had , but a Bishop only . S. Hier. Epist. ad Evagrium So even with him , no Bishop , and no Church . S. Jerome tells us . Though being none himself , he was no great friend to Bishops . And this was so setled in the minds of men from the very Infancie of the Christian Church , as that it had not been to that time contradicted by any . So that then there was no Controversie about the Calling ; all agreed upon that . The only Difficulty was to accommodate the Places and Precedencies of Bishops , among themselves , for the very Necessity of Order and Government . To do this , the most equal and impartial way was , That as the Church is in the Common-wealth , not the Common-wealth in it ( as † † Non enim Resp. est in Ecclesia : sed Ecclesia in Repub. Optat. ● . 3. Optatus tells us : ) So the Honors of the Church should ‖ ‖ Conc. Calced. Can. 9. & Actio 16. follow the Honors of the State . And so it was insinuated , if not Ordered ( as appears ) by the Canons of the Councels of Chalcedon and Antioch . And this was the very fountain of Papal Greatness , the Pope having his Residence in the great Imperial City . But Precedencie is one thing , and Authority is another . It was thought fit therefore , though ( as * * S. Cyprian . L. de Simp. Praelat . S. Cyprian speaks ) Episcopatus unus est ; the Calling of a Bishop be one and the same , that yet among Bishops there should be a certain Subordination and Subjection . The Empire therefore being cast into several Divisions ( which they then called Diocesses ) every Diocess contained several Provinces , every Province several Bishopricks . The Chief of a Diocess ( in that larger sense ) was called 〈◊〉 , and sometimes a Patriarch . The Chief of a Province , a Metropolitane . Next the Bishops in their several Diocesses ( as we now use that word . ) Among These there was effectual subjection respectively grounded upon Canon , and Positive Law , in their several Quarters . But over them none at all . All the Difference there , was but Honorary , not Authoritative . If the Ambition of some particular persons did attempt now and then to break these Bounds , it is no marvel . For no Calling can sanctifie all that have it . And Socrates tells us , That in this way the Bishops of Alexandria and Rome advanced themselves to a great height 〈◊〉 , even beyond the quality of Bishops . Now upon view of Story it will appear , that what advantage accrewed to Alexandria , was gotten by the violence of Theophilus , Patriarch there . A man of exceeding great Learning , and of no less violence ; and he made no little advantage , out of this , that the Empress E●doxia used his help for the casting of S. Chrysostome out of Constantinople . But the Roman Prelates grew by a steddy and constant watchfulness upon all Occasions to increase the Honour of that Sea . Interposing and * * 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ● 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 sive se 〈◊〉 esse . Greg. Naz. Car● . de vita sua , p. 26. assuming to themselves to be Vindices Canonum ( as S. Gregory Nazian . speaks ) Defenders and Restorers of the Canons of the Church ; which was a fair pretence , and took extremely well . But yet the World took notice of this their aim . For in all Contestations between the East and the West , which were nor small nor few , the Western Bishops objected Levity to the Eastern ; And they again Arrogancie to the Bishops of the West , as † † Orientalibus levitas , Occidentalibus arrogantia invicem objecta est . Bilius Ann●t . in S. Gregor. Naz. Vitam . Num. 153. Quid opus est Occidentali supercitio ? ex 〈◊〉 Basil , &c. Bilius observes , and upon very warrantable Testimonies . For all this , the Bishop of Rome continued in good Obedience to the Emperor , enduring his Censures and Judgments . And being chosen by the Clergy and People of Rome , he accepted from the Emperor the Ratification of that choice . Insomuch that about the year 579. when all Italy was on fire with the Lombards , and * * Hec una suit causa quare Pelagius inju●●● Principis Pontifex creatus sit , q 〈…〉 obsessam ab hoste urbem mitti quispiam non posset , &c. Postea itaque ad placandum Imperatorem Gregorius Diaconus , &c. Platina in vitâ Pelagi● 2. & Onuph . ibid. Pelagius the Second constrained through the necessity of the times , contrary to the Example of his Predecessors , to enter upon the Popedom without the Emperors leave ; S. Gregory then a Deacon was shortly after sent on Embassie to excuse it . About this time brake out the Ambition of ‖ ‖ Onuph . In Plat. in vita Boni● . 3. John Patriarch of Constantinople affecting to be Universal Bishop . He was countenanced in this by Mauricius the Emperor , but sowerly opposed by Pelagius and S. Gregory . Insomuch that S. * * In hac ejus 〈◊〉 quid aliud nisi propinqua jam Antichristi esse tempora designatur . S. Greg. L. 4. Epist. ●8 . Gregory says plainly , That this Pride of his shews that the times of Antichrist were near . So as yet ( and this was now upon the point of six hundred years after Christ ) there was no Universal Bishop , No one Monarch over the whole Militant Church . But Mauricius being deposed and murthered by Phocas ; Phocas conferred upon † † It may be they will say S. Gregory did not inveigh against the Thing , but the Person . That John of Constantinople should take that upon him , which belonged to the Pope . But it is manifest by S. Grego●●s own Text , that he speaks against the Thing it self , that neither the Bishop of Rome , nor any other , ought to take on him that 〈◊〉 . Cura totius Ecclesiae & Principatus S. Petro 〈◊〉 , & tamen Universalis Apostolus non vocatur . S. Greg. L. 4. Epist. 76. ( Therefore neither is his Successor , Universal Bishop . ) Nu●quid ego hac in re propriam causam defendo ? ●●●quid spec●alem injuriam Vindi●o ? & non magis causam Omni 〈…〉 Dei & Universalis Ecclesiae ? where ●e plainly denies , that he speaks in his own Cause , or in the Cause of his Sea , Per Ven●randam Chalcedonensem Synodum hoc Nomen Rom. Pontifici oblatum est , sed nullus eorum unquam hoc 〈◊〉 Vocabulum assumpsit , nec ●ti consens●● , ne dum privatum aliquid daretur Uni , ●onore debito Sacerdotes privarentur Universi , &c. Where he plainly says , the Roman Bishops rejected this Title . Ibid. And yet for all this Pope Gregory the Seventh delivers it as one of his Dictates in a Councel held at Rome about the year 1●76 . Quod 〈◊〉 Romanus Pontifex jure dicatur Universalis . Baron . a● An. ●076 . Num. 31 & 32. Boniface the Third that very honour , which two of his Predecessors had declaimed against as ‖ ‖ Absit à Cordibus Christianorum Nomen istud Blasphemi● . S. Greg. L. 4. Epist. 76. In isto scelesto vocabulo consentire , nihil est aliud quam fidem p●rdere . S. Greg. L. 4. Epist. 83. Monstrous and Blasphemous , if not Antichristian . Where , by the way either those two Popes , Pelagius and S. Gregory erred in this weighty business about an Universal Bishop over the whole Church ; Or if they did not Erre , Boniface , and the rest which after him took it upon them , were in their very Predecessors judgment , Antichristian . But to proceed . * * Vana tunc ●abebatur Cleri & Populi Electio , nisi aut Imperatores , aut eorum Exarchi confirmassent . Plat. in vita Severini 1. As yet the right of Election or Ratification of the Pope continued in the Emperor . But then the Lombards grew so great in Italy , and the Empire was so infested with Saracens ; and such changes hapned in all parts of the world , as that neither for the present , the Homage of the Pope was useful to the Emperor ; nor the Protection of the Emperor available for the Pope . By this means the Bishop of Rome was left to play his own game by himself . A thing which as it pleased him well enough ; So both he , and his Successors made great Advantage by it . For being grown to that Eminence by the Emperor , and the greatness of that City and Place of his abode , He found himself the more free , the greater the tempest was , that beat upon the other : And then first , † † Quum Theophylactus Exarchus Imperatoris Itali am peteret , Milites Itali , veriti ne quid mali ejus Adventus portenderet , quod superioribus temporibus fer● magis cum Pontificibus quam cum Imperatoribus sensissent , ingressurum Romam interficere constituerant . ( And the Emperors own Governor was fain to be defended from the Emperors own Souldiers by the Popes power , who had gotten Interest in them against their own Master . ) Platina in vita Johan . 6. Absimarus was then Emperor . He set himself to alion●te the hearts of the Italians from the Emperor . Next he Opposed himself against him . And about the year seven hundred and ten , Pope Constantine the first did also first of all openly confront Philippicus the Emperor in defence of Images . As ‖ ‖ Primus omnium Rom. Pontificum Imperatori Gr●●o Philippico in os resistere palam ausus est . Onuph . in Plat. in vit● Constantini 1. On●phrius tells us . After him * * Platina in vita Gregor. 2 & 3. Gregory the Second , and the third took up his example , and did the like by Leo Isaurus . By this time the Lombards began to pinch very close , and to vex on all sides not Italy only , but Rome too . This drives the Pope to seek a new Patron . And very fitly he meets with Charles Martel in France , that famous warrior against the Saracens . * * Ut laboranti Romae & Ecclesiae primo quoque tempore auxilium ●erret , &c. Platin. in vita Greg. 3. Him he implores in defence of the Church against the Lombards . This address seems very advisedly taken , at least it proves very fortunate to them both . † † Quaeres semel incoepta cum ●ongobardici Regni excidio fi●ita est . Onuph . in Plat. in vita Constantini Primi . For in short time it dissolved the Kingdom of the Lombards in Italy , which had then stood two hundred and four years , which was the Popes security ; And it brought the Crown of France into the House of Charles , and shortly after the Western Empire . And now began the Pope to be great indeed . For by the Bounty of ‖ ‖ Reddi●us ita●ue Roma●●● Exarc●atus est , quicquid Pa●um & Apenninum interjacet , &c. Plat. in vita Stephan . Secundi . P●pin Son of Charles , that which was taken from the Lombards was given to the Pope . So that now of a Bishop , he became a Temporal Prince . But when Charles the Great had set up the Western Empire , then he resumed the Ancient and Original Power of the Emperor , to govern the Church , to call Councels , to order Papal Elections . And this Power continued in his Posterity . For this Right of the Emperor was in force and use in Gregory the Seventh's time , * * Imperator in gratiam cum Gregorio rediit , eundèmque in Pontificatu confirmavit , ut tum Imperatorum mos erat . Plat. in vitá Gregor. septim . Who was confirmed in the Popedom by Henry the fourth , whom he afterward deposed . And it might have continued longer , if the succeeding Emperors had had abilities enough to secure , or vindicate their own Right . But the Pope keeping a strong Councel about him , and meeting with some Weak Princes , and they oft-times distracted with great and dangerous Wars , grew stronger , till he got the better . So this is enough to shew how the Popes climed up by the Emperors , till they over-topped them ; which is all I said before , and have now proved . And this was about the year 1073. ( For the whole Popedom of Gregory the Seventh was begun and ended within the Reign of William the Conqueror . ) Yet was it carried in succeeding times with great changes of fortune , and different success . The Emperor sometimes plucking from the Pope , and the † † Multi deinde fuerunt Imperatores Hen. similiores , quàm Jul. Caesari , quos subigere non fuit difficile , dum domi rerum omnium securi , &c. Calv. L. 4. Iustit . c. 11. §. 13. Pope from the Emperor , winning and losing ground , as their Spirits , Abilities , Aids and Opportunities were , till at the last the Pope setled himself upon the Grounds laid by ‖ ‖ For in a Synod at Rome about the year 1076. Pope Gregory the Seventh established certain brief Conclusions , twenty seven in number , upon which stands almost all the Greatness of the Papacie . These Conclusions are called Dictatus Papae . And they are reckoned up by Baronius in the year 1076. Nu. 31 , 32 , &c. But whether this Dictatorship did now first invade the Church , I cannot certainly say . The chief of these Propositions follow here . Quòd solus Rom. Pontifex jure dicatur Universalis . Quòd solius Papae pedes omnes Principes deosculentur . Quòd liceat illi Imperatores Deponere . Quòd nulla Synodus absque praecepto ejus deb●t Generalis vocari . Quòd nullum Capitulum , null●sque Liber Ca●onicus habeatur absque illius Authoritate . Quòd sententia illius à nullo debet retractari , & ipse omnium solus retractare potest . Quòd Rom. Ecclesia nunquam erravit , nec in perpetuum , Scriptur● testante , errabit . Quòd Rom. Pontifex , si Ca●onicè fuerit ordinatus , meritis B. Petri indubitantèr efficitur sanctus . Quòd à fidelitate Iniquorum subdit●s potest abso●●●re . Gregory the Seventh , in the great power which he now uses in and over these parts of the Christian world .

Num. 13 Thirdly , A. C. knowing 't is not enough to say this , That the Pope is Pastor of the whole Church , labors to prove it . And first he tells us , that Irenaeus intimates so much ; but he doth not tell us where . And he is much scanted of Ancient Proof , if Irenaeus stand alone . Besides , Irenaeus was a Bishop of the Gallicane Church , and a very unlikely man to Captivate the Liberty of that Church under the more powerful Principality of Rome . And how can we have better evidence of his Judgment touching that Principality , than the Actions of his Life ? When Pope Victor Excommunicated the Asian Churches 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 * * Euseb. L. 5. c. 25. all at a blow , was not Irenaeus the Chief man that reprehended him for it ? A very unmeet and undutiful thing , sure , it had been in Irenaeus , in deeds to tax him of rashness and inconsiderateness , whom in words A. C. would have to be acknowledged by him , The Supreme and Infallible Pastor of the Universal Church . But the Place of Irenaeus , which A. C. means , ( I think ) is this , where he uses these words indeed , but short of A. C's sense of it . † † Ad hanc Ecclesiam , propter potentiorem Principalitatem , necesse est omnem convenire Ecclesiam ; i. e. eos qui sunt undique fideles : In quâ semper ab his qui sunt undique , conservata est ea quae est ab Apostolis Traditio . Iren. L. 3. c. 3. To this Church ( he speaks of Rome ) propter potentiorem principalitatem , for the more powerful Principality of it , 't is necessary that every Church , that is , the faithful , undique , round about , should have recourse . Should have recourse , so A. C. translates it . And what doth this avail him ? Very A. C. p. 58. great reason was there in Irenaeus his time , That upon any Disference arising in the Faith , Omnes undique Fideles , all the Faithful , or , if you will , all the Churches round about , should have recourse , that is , resort to Rome , being the Imperial City , and so a Church of more powerful Principality , than any other at that time in those parts of the world . Well : Will this exalt Rome to be the Head of the Church Universal ? What if the States and Policies of the world be much changed since , and this Conveniencie of resorting to Rome be quite ceased ? Then is not Rome devested of her more powerful Principality ? But the meaning of A. C. is , We must so have recourse to Rome , as to submit our Faith to hers : And then not only in Irenaeus his time , but through all times reform Our selves by her Rule : That is , all the Faithful , not undique , round about , but ubique , every where , must agree with Rome in point of Faith . This he means , and Rome may thank him for it . But this Irenaeus saith not , nor will his words bear it ; nor durst A. C. therefore construe him so , but was content to smooth it over with this ambiguous phrase of having recourse to Rome . Yet this is a place as much stood upon by them , as any other in all Antiquity . And should I grant them their own sense , That all the faithful every where must agree with Rome ( which I may give , but can never grant ) yet were not this saying any whit prejudicial to us now . For first , here 's a powerful Principality ascribed to the Church of Rome . And that no man of Learning doubts but the Church of Rome had within its own Patriarchate and Jurisdiction ; and that was very large , containing ‖ ‖ Ed. Brierwood , of the Jurisdiction and Limits of the Patriarchs , in the time of the Nicen Councel , Ad. Qu. 1. M. S. all the Provinces in the Diocess of Italy ( in the old sense of the word Diocess ) which Provinces the Lawyers and others term Suburbicarias . There were ten of them . The three Islands , Sicily , Corsica , and Sardinia ; and the other seven upon the firm land of Italy . And this ( I take it ) is plain in Ruffinus . For he living shortly after the Ni●●ne Connec●● , as he did , and being of Italy , as he was , he might very well know the Bounds of that Patriarchs Jurisdiction , as it was then practised : * * Apud Alexandriam , ut in urbe Româ vetusta consuetudo servetur , ut ille Aegypti , ut hic Suburbicariarum Ecclesiarum solicitudinem gerat . Ruffin . L. 1. Eccles. Hist. c. 6. And he says expresly , That according to the old Custome , the Roman Patriarchs Charge was confined within the Limits of the Suburbicarian Churches . To avoid the force of this Testimony , † † Peron L. 2. of his Reply , c. 6. Cardinal Peron lays load upon Ruffinus . For he charges him with Passion , Ignorance , and Rashness . And one piece of his Ignorance is , That he hath ill translated the Canon of the Councel of Nice . Now be that as it may , I neither do , nor can approve his Translation of that Canon ; nor can it be easily proved , that he purposely intended a Translation . All that I urge is , that Ruffinus living in that time and Place , was very like well to know and understand the Limits and Bounds of that Patriarchate of Rome , in which he lived . Secondly here 's , That it had potentiorem , a more powerful Principality than other Churches had . And that the Protestants grant too ; and that not only because the Roman Prelate was Ordine primus , first in Order , and Degree , which some One must be , to avoid Confusion ; ‖ ‖ Quia cùm Orientales & Graecae Ecclesiae , & Africanae etiam , multis inter se Opinionum dissentionibus tumultuare●tur , haec sedatior aliis , & minùs turbulenta fuerit . Calv. L. 4. Iustit c. 6. §. 16. But also because the Roman Sea had won a great deal of Credit , and gained a great deal of Power to it self in Church-Affairs : Because while the Greek yea , and the African Churches too , were turbulent , and distracted with many and dangerous Opinions , the Church of Rome all that while , and a good while after Irenaeus too , was more calm and constant to the Truth . Thirdly , here 's a Necessity ( say they ) required , That every Church , that is , the faithful , which are every where , agree with that Church . But what ? simply with that Church , what ever it do or believe ? No , nothing less . For Irenaeus adds , with that Church , in quâ , in which is conserved that Tradition which was delivered by the Apostles . And God forbid but it should be necessary for all Churches ; and all the faithful to agree with that Ancient Apostolike Church in all those Things , in which it keeps to the Doctrine and Discipline delivered by the Apostles . In Iraeneus his time it kept these better than any other Church , and by this in part obtained potentiorem Principalitatem , a Greater power than other Churches , but not over all other Churches . And ( as they understand Irenaeus ) a Necessity lay upon all other Churches to agree with this : but this Necessity was laid upon them by the Then Integrity of the Christian Faith there professed , not by the Universality of the Roman Jurisdiction now challenged . And let Rome reduce it self to the Observation of Tradition Apostolike , to which it then held , and I will say as Irenaeus did ; That it will be then necessary for every Church , and for the Faithful every where , to agree with it . Lastly , let me Observe too , That Irenaeus made no doubt , but that Rome might fall away from Apostolical Tradition , as well as other Particular Churches of great Name have done . For he does not say , in quâ servanda semper erit , sed in quâ servata est : Not , in which Church the Doctrine delivered from the Apostles shall ever be entirely kept : That had been home indeed : But in which , by God's Grace and Mercy , it was to that time of Irenaeus so kept and preserved . So we have here in Irenaeus his Judgment , the Church of Rome then Entire , but not Infallible . And endowed with a more powerful Principality than other Churches , but not with an Universal Dominion over all other Churches ; which is the Thing in Question .

Num. 14 But to this place of Irenaeus A. C. joyns a Reason of his own . A. C. p. 58. For he tells us the Bishop of Rome is S. Peter's Successor , and therefore to Him we must have recourse . The Fathers , I deny not , ascribe very much to S. Peter : But 't is to S. Peter in his own person . And among them , Epiphanius is as free , and as frequent in extolling S. Peter , as any of them : And yet did he never intend to give an Absolute Principality to Rome in S. Peter's right . There is a Noted Place in that Father , where his words are these : * * Ipse autem Dominus constituit eum Primum Apostolorum , Petram firmam super quam Ecclesia Dei aedificata est ; & portae inferorum non valebunt adversus illam , &c. Juxta omnem enim modum in Ipso firmata est fides , qui accepit Clavem Coelorum , &c. In hoc enim omnes Quaestiones ac Subtilitates fidei inveniuntur . Epiphan. in Ancorato . Edit. Paris . Lat. 1564. fol. 497. A. Edit. verò Graec● . Latin . Tom. 2. p. 14. For the Lord himself made S. Peter the first of the Apostles , a firm Rock , upon which the Church of God is built , and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it , &c. For in him the Faith is made firm every way , who received the Key of Heaven , &c. For in him all the Questions and Subtilties of the Faith are sound . This is a great Place at first sight too , and deserves a Marginal Note to call young Readers eyes to view it . And it hath this Note in the Old Latine Edition at Paris , 1564. Petri Principatus , & Praestantia ; Peters Principality , and Excellencie . This Place , as much shew as it makes for the Roman Principality , I shall easily clear , and yet do no wrong , either to S. Peter , or the Roman Church . For most manifest it is , That the Authority of S. Peter is † † 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . For there begins the Argument of Epiphanius . urged here to prove the Godhead of the Holy Ghost . And then follow the Elogies given to S. Peter , the better to set off and make good that Authority ; As that he was ‖ ‖ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Princeps Apostolorum , the Prince of the Apostles , and pronounced blessed by Christ ; because as God the Father revealed to him the Godhead of the Son , so did he again the Godhead of the Holy Ghost . After this Epiphanius calls Him * * 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . solidam Petram , a solid Rock , upon which the Church of God was founded , against which the Gates of Hell should not prevail . And adds , That the Faith was rooted , and made firm in him † † 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. every way , in him who received the Key of Heaven . And after this , he gives the Reason of all : * * 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. Because in Him : ( mark I pray , 't is still in Him , as he was blessed by that Revelation from God the Father , S. Mathew 16. ) were found all the 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the very Nice-Cities S. Mat : 16. 17. and exactness of the Christian Faith . For he professed the Godhead of the Son , and of the Holy Ghost ; And so Omni modo every Point of Faith was rooted in Him . And this is the full meaning of that Learned Father in this passage . Now therefore Building the Church upon Saint Peter in Epiphanius his sense , is not , as if He and his Successors were to be Monarchs over it for ever : But it is the edifying and establishing the Church in the true Faith of Christ by the Confession which S. Peter made . And so † † 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. Qui factus est nobis reverâ solida Petra firmans fidem Domini . In quâ ( Petra ) aedificata est Ecclesia juxta omnem modum . Primo , quòd confessus est Christum esse Filium Dei vivi , & statim audivit , Super hanc Petram solidae fidei aedificabo Ecclesiam meam . — Etiam de Spiritu Sancto idem , &c. Epiphan. L. 2. Haeres. 59. contra Catharos . Tom. 1. p. 500. Edit. Graeco-Lat . He expresses himself elsewhere most plainly : Saint Peter ( saith he ) who was made to us indeed a solid Rock firming the Faith of our Lord . On which ( Rock ) the Church is built juxta omnem modum , every way . First , that he Confessed Christ to be the Son of the Living God , and by and by he heard : Upon this Rock of solid Faith I will build my Church . And the same Confession he made of the Holy Ghost . Thus was S. Peter a solid Rock upon which the Church was founded omni modo , every way . That is , the Faith of the Church was ‖ confirmed by him in every Point . But that S. Peter 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Ibid. was any Rock , or Foundation of the Church , so as that he and his Successors must be relied on in all matters of Faith , and govern the Church like Princes , or Monarchs , that Epiphanius never thought of . And that he did never think so , I prove it thus . For beside this apparent meaning of his Context ( as is here expressed ) how could he possibly think of a Supremacie due to S. Peter's Successor , that in most express terms , and that * * Ille primus ( speaking of S. James the Lords Brother ) Episcopalem Cathedram coepit , quum ei ante caeteros omnes suum in terris Thronum Dominus tradidisset . Epipham L. 3. Haeres . 78. Tom. 2. p. 1039. Et serè similitèr , Tom. 1. L. 1. Haeres. 29. twice repeated , makes S. James the Brother of our Lord , and not S. Peter , succeed our Lord in the Principality of the Church . And Epiphanius was too full both of Learning and Industry , to speak contrary to himself in a Point of this moment .

Num. 15 Next , since A. C. speeds no better with Irenaeus , he will have A. C. p. 58. it out of Scripture . And he still tells us , the Bishop of Rome is S. Peter's Successor . Well . Suppose that . What then ? What ? Why then he succeeded in all S. Peters * * Bellar. L. 1. de Rom. Pont. c. 9. §. Respondeo Pontifica●um . Prerogatives which are Ordinary , and belonged to him as a Bishop , though not in the Extraordinary , which belonged to him as an Apostle . For that 's it which you all say , † † ● . 25. N. 10. but no man proves . If this be so , yet then I must tell A. C. S. Peter in his Ordinary Power was never made Pastor of the whole Church : Nay , in his Extraordinary , he had no * * Bellar. Ibid. more powerful Principality than the other Apostles had . A † † The Fathers gave three Prerogatives to S. Peter . Of Authority . Of Primacie . And of Principality . But not of Supremacit of Power . Raynold contra Hart. cap. 5. Divis. 3. And he proves it at large . Primacie of Order was never denied Him by the Protestants : And an Universal Supremacie of Power was never granted him by the Primitive Christians . Yea , but Christ promised the Keys to Saint Peter , ‖ ‖ S. Mat. 16. 18. S. Mat. 16. True , but so did he to all the rest of the Apostles , * * S. Mat. 18. 18. S. Joh. 20. 22. S. Mat. 18. and S. Joh. 20. And to their Successors , as much as to His. So 't is Tibi , & Illis , not Tibi , non Illis . I give the Keys to thee and them , not to thee to exclude them . Unless any man will think Heaven-Gates so easie , that they might open and shut them without the Keys . And † † Si hoc Petro tantum dictum est , non facit hoc Ecclesia , &c. S. Aug. Tract. 50. in S. Joh. S. Augustine is plain : If this were said only to S. Peter , then the Church hath no power to do it ; which God forbid ! The Keys therefore were given to S. Peter , and the rest , in a Figure of the Church , to whose power , and for whose use They were given . But there 's not one Key in all that Bunch , that can let in S. Peter's Successor , to a more powerful Principality universal than the Successors of the other Apostles had .

Num. 16 Yea , but Christ prayed , That S. Peter's Faith might not fail , A. C. p. 58. * * S. Luk. 22. 32. S. Luke 22. That 's true . And in that sense , that Christ prayed , S. Peter's Faith failed not ; That is , in Application to his person for his Perseverance in the Faith , as † † Deum dare , ut in side perseveretur . S. Prosper . L. 1. de Vocat . Gent. c. 24. S. Prosper applies it . Which Perseverance yet he must owe and acknowledge to the Grace of Christ's Prayer for him , not to the power and ability of his own Free-Will , as * * Rogavi ut non deficeret , &c. Et certè juxta vos in Apostoli erat positum potestate si voluisset , ut non deficeret fides ejus ; &c. S. Hieron . l. 2. adversus Pelagianos . S. Jerome tells us . † † Aliquid speciale . Bellarm. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. §. Secundò , quia sine . Bellarmine likes not this : Because ( saith he ) Christ here obtained some special Priviledge for S. Peter , whereas Perseverance in Grace is a Gift common to all the Elect. And he is so far right . And the Special Grace which this Prayer of Christ obtained for S. Peter was , That he should not fall into a final Apostacie ; no not when Sathan had sifted him to the bran , that he fell most horribly even into a threefold Denyal of his Master , and that with a Curse . And to recover this , and Persevere , was aliquid speciale I trow , if any thing ever were . But this will not down with Bellarmine . No , The ‖ ‖ Ut nec ipse ut Pontisex doceret unquam aliquid contra fidem , sive ut in Side ejus inveniretur qui doceret . Bellar. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. §. Alterum Privilegium est . Aliquid speciale , the special Thing here obtained was ( saith he ) That neither S. Peter himself , nor any other that should sit in his Seat should teach any thing contrary to the true Faith . That S. Peter after his recovery should preach nothing either as Apostle or Bishop contrary to the Faith , will easily be granted him ; But that none of his Successors should do it , but be all Infallible , that certainly never came within the Compass of Rogavi pro te Petre , I have prayed for thee Peter . And Bellarmines Proof of this , is his just Confutation . For he proves this Exposition of that Text only by the Testimony of seven Popes in their own Cause . And then takes a leap to Theophylact , who says nothing to the purpose . So that upon the matter Bellarmine confesses there is not one Father of the Church disinteressed in the Cause , that understands this Text as Bellarmine doth , till you come down to Theophylact. So the Popes Infallibility appeared to no body but the Popes themselves , for above a thousand years after Christ . For so long it was before * * Theophylactus floruit circa An. Dom. 1072. Theophylact lived . And the spite of it is , Theophylact could not see it neither . For the most that Bellarmine makes him say , is but this ▪ † † Qui● 〈◊〉 habeo Princip●m Discipulorum , confirma caeteros . Hoc enim decet's● qui post me Ecclesia Petra es & Fundamentum . Bellarm. L. 4. de Rom. Pontif. cap. 3. §. Praeter hos . Ex Theophyl . in 21. S. Luc. Because I account thee as chief of my Disciples , confirm the rest , for this becomes Thee , which art to be a Rock and Foundation of the Church after me . For this is Personal too , and of S. Peter , and that as he was an Apostle . For otherwise then as an Apostle ▪ he was not a Rock or Foundation of the Church , no not in a Secondary sense . The special priviledge therefore which Christ prayed for , was personal to S. Peter , and is that which before I mentioned . And Bellarmine himself says , That Christ ‖ ‖ 〈◊〉 , & ibid §. Est igitur tertia . obtained by this Prayer two Priviledges , especial ones for Saint Peter . The one , That he should never quite fall from the true Faith , how strongly soever he were tempted . The other , That there should never be found any sitting in his Seat , that should teach against it . Now for the first of these , * * Ex quibus privilegiis primum fortasse non ●●●●vit ad p●st●res , at secundum sine d●bi●●●●●vit ad Poster●s sive Successores . 〈◊〉 . ibid. ● . Alterum Privilegium . Bellarmine doubts it did not flow over to his Successors . Why then 't is true , which I here say , that this was Personal to S. Peter . But the second he says , Out of all doubt passed over to his Successors . Nay , that 's not out of all doubt neither . First , because many Learned men have challenged many Popes for teaching Heresie ; and that 's against the true Faith . And that which so many Learned Men have affirmed , is not out of all doubt . Or if it be , why does Bellarmine take so much pain● to confute and disprove them , as † † Bellar. ● . ● . de Rom. 〈◊〉 c. ● . he doth ? Secondly , because Christ obtained of his Father every thing that he prayed for , if he prayed for it absolutely , and not under a Condition ▪ Father , I know thou hearest me always , S. John 11. S. Joh. 11. 〈◊〉 . Now Christ here prayed absolutely for S. Peter ; Therefore whatsoever he asked for him was granted . Therefore if Christ 〈◊〉 his Successors as well as himself , his Prayer was granted for his Successors as well as for himself . But then , if Bellarmine will tell us absolutely , as he doth , * * Donum hoc loco Petro impetratum , etiam ad Successores pertinet , Bell. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. cap. 3. ● . Quartò , donum hoc . That the whole Gift obtained by this Prayer for S. Peter did belong to his Successors ; and then by and by after break this Gift into two parts , and call the first part into doubt , whether it belongs to his Successors or no , he cannot say the second part is out of all doubt . For if there be reason of doubting the one , there 's as much reason of doubting the other , since they stand both on the same foot , The Validity of Christ's Prayer for Saint Peter .

Num. 17 Yea , but Christ charged S. Peter to govern , and feed his whole stock , S. John 21. Nay soft . ▪ T is but his Sheep and his S. Joh. 29. 151 Lambs ; and that every Apostle , and every Apostles Successor hath charge to do . * * Mat. 28. 21. & S. Mat. 10. 17. The same power and charge is given to them all . S. Matth. 28. But over the whole Flock I find no one Apostle or Successor set . And 't is a poor shift to say , as A. C. doth , That the Bishop of Rome is A. C. p. 58. set over the whole Flock , because both over Lambs and Sheep . For in every Flock that is not of barren Weathers , there are Lambs and Sheep , that is , † † And this seems to me to allude to that of S. Paul , 1 Cor. 3. 2. and Heb. 5. 12. Some are fed with milk , and some with stronger meat . The Lambs with milk , and the Sheep with stronger meat . But here A. C. follows Pope Hildebran● close , who in the Case of the Emperor then , asked this Question : Quando Christus Ecclesiam suam Petro commisit , & dixit ▪ P●s●●●ves 〈◊〉 , excep●t●● Reges ? Platin. in vita Greg. 7. And certainly Kings are not exempted from being ●ed by the Church ▪ But from being spoiled of their Kingdoms by any Church-men , that they are . weaker and stronger Christians ; not People and Pastors , Subjects and Governors , as A. C. expounds it , to bring the Necks of Princes under Roman Pride . And if Kings be meant , yet then the command is Pasce , feed them ; But Deponere , or Occidere , to depose , or kill them , is not Pascere in any sense ; Lanii id est , non Pastoris , that 's the Butchers , not the Shepherds part . If a a Sheep go astray never so far , 't is not the Shepherds part , to kill him ; at least if he do , non pascit , dum o●cidit , he doth not certainly feed , while he kills .

Num. 18 And for the Close , That the Bishop of Rome shall never refuse A. C. p. 58. to feed and govern the whole stock in such sort , as that neither particular Man , nor Church shall have just cause under pretence of Reformation in Manners or Faith to make a Separation from the whole Church . By A. C's favour , this is meer begging of the Question . He says the Pope shall ever govern the whole Whole Church , so as that there shall be no just Cause given of a Separation . And that is the very Thing , which the Protestants charge upon him ; Namely , that he hath governed , if not the Whole , yet so much of the Church as he hath been able to bring under his Power , so as that he hath given too just Cause of the present continued separation . And as the Corruptions in the Doctrine of Faith , in the Church of Rome were the Cause of the first Separation ; so are they at this present day the Cause why the separation continues . And farther , I for my part , am clear of Opinion , that the Errors in the Doctrine of Faith , which are charged upon the whole Church , at least so much of the whole , as in these parts of Europe hath been kept under the Roman Jurisdiction , have had their Original and Continuance from this , that so much of the Universal Church ( which indeed they account All ) hath forgotten her own Liberty , and submitted to the Roman Church and Bishop ; and so is in a manner forced to embrace all the Corruptions ; which the Particular Church of Rome hath contracted upon it self . And being now not able to free her self from the Roman Jurisdiction , is made to continue also in all her Corruptions . And for the Protestants , they have made no separation from the General Church properly so called ( for therein A. C. said well , A. C. p. 58. the Popes Administration can give no Cause to separate from that ) but their Separation is only from the Church of Rome ; and such other Churches , as by adhering to her , have hazarded themselves , and do now miscal themselves , the Whole Catholike Church . Nay , even here the Protestants have not left the Church of Rome in her Essence , but in her Errors ; not in the Things which Constitute a Church , but only in such Abuses and Corruptions , as work toward the Dissolution of a Church .

I also asked , who ought to judge in this Case ? The B. said , a General Councel .

§ . 26 Num. 1 And surely , What greater or surer Judgment you can have , where sense of Scripture is doubted , than a General Councel , I do not see : Nor do you doubt . And A. C. grants A. C. p. 59. it to be a most Competent Judge of all Controversies of Faith , so that all Pastors be gathered together , and in the Name of Christ , and pray unanimously for the promised assistance of the Holy Ghost , and make great and diligent search and examination of the Scriptures , and other Grounds of Faith ; And then Decree what is to be held for Divine Truth . For then ( saith he ) 't is Firm , and Infallible , or else there is nothing firm upon earth . As fair as this Passage seems , and as freely as I have granted , that a General Councel is the best Judge on Earth , where the sense of Scripture is doubted ; yet even in this passage there are some things Considerable . As first , when shall the Church hope for such a General Councel , in which all Pastors shall be gathered together ? there was never any such General Councel yet , nor do I believe such can be had . So that 's supposed in vain ; and you might have learn'd this of * * Si omnes , nullum fuit hactenus Concilium Generale , neque etiam videtur deinceps futurum . Bellarm. 1. de Conc. cap. 17. §. 1. Bellarmine : if you will not believe me . Next ( saith he ) If all these Pastors pray unanimously for the promised Assistance of the Holy Ghost . Why , but if all Pastors cannot meet together , all cannot pray together , nor all search the Scriptures together , nor all upon that Search Decree together . So that is supposed in vain too . Yea , but Thirdly , If all that meet do pray unanimously . What then ? All that meet are not simply All. Nor doth the Holy Ghost come , and give his Assistance upon every Prayer , that is made unanimously , though by very many Prelates or other Faithful People met together , unless all other Requisites as well as Unanimity , to make their prayer to be heard and granted , be observed by them ; So that an Unanimous Prayer is not adequately supposed , and therefore Concludes not . But lastly , how far a General Councel , if all A. C's Conditions be observed , is firm , and Infallible , that shall be more fully discussed at after . † † §. 33. Consi● . 1. In the mean time , these two words Firm and Infallible are ill put together as Synonima's . For there are some things most Infallible in themselves , which yet could never get to be made firm among men . And there are many things made firm by Law , both in Churches and Kingdoms , which yet are not Infallible in themselves . So to draw all together ; to settle Controversies in the Church , here is a Visible Judge and Infallible , but not living . And that is the ‖ ‖ And this was thought a sufficient Judge too , when Christians were as humble as Learned . I am sure Optatus thought so . Querendi sunt Judices . Si Christiani de utraque parte dari non possunt , q●ia ●●●liis veritas impeditur , De foris qu●rendus est Judex . Si Paganus , non potest nosse Christiana Secreta . Si Judaeus , inimicus est Christiani Baptismatis . Ergo in terris de hac re nullum poterit reperiri Judicium . De Coelo quaerendus est Judex . Sed ut quid pulsamus ad Coelum qu●m habemus hic in Evangelio ? Testamentum ( inquam quia hoc loco recte possunt terrena coelestibus comparari ) tale est , quod quivis hominum habens numerosos filios , his quamdiu pater praesens est , ipse imperat singulis ; non est adhuc necessarium Testamentum . Sic & Christus , quamdiu praesens in terris fuit , ( quamvis nec modo desit ) pro tempore quicquid necessarium erat , Apostolis Imperavit . Sed quomodo terrenus Pater dum se in consinio senserit mortis , timens ne post mortem suam , ruptâ pace litigent fratres , adhibitis Testibus Voluntatem suam de Pectore morituro transfert in Tabulas diu duraturas . Et si fuerit inter fratres contentio nata , non itur ad Tumulum , sed q●●ritur . Testamentum ; & qui Tumulo quiescit , tacitus de Tabulis loquitur . Vivus , cujus est Testamentum , in Coelo est . Ergo voluntas ejus , velut in Testamento , sic in Evangelio inquiratur . Opt. l. 5. adv. Parm. This pregnant Place of Optatus , ( That the Scripture is the Judge of Divine Truth , when ever it is questioned ) though Baldwin dare not deny both , yet he would fain slide by it , and by a parallel place as full in S. Augin Psal. 21. Exposition● 2. with this shift , that S. Augustine in another place had rather use the Testimony of Tradition , that is , the Testimony Nuncupativi potiùs quàm Scripti Testamenti , of the Nuncupative , tather than the Written Will of Christ . Baldwin . in Optat. L. 5. But this is a meer shift . First , because it is Petitio principii , the meer begging of the Question . For we deny any Testament of Christ , but that which is written . And A. C. cannot shew it in any one Father of the Church , that Christ ever left behim a Nuncupative obligatory Will. Secondly , because nothing is more plain in these two Fathers , Optatus and S. Augustine , than that both of them appeal to the Written Will , and make that the Judge without any Exception , when a matter of Faith comes in Question . In Optat. the words are : Habemus in E●●ngelio , we have it in the Gospel . And in Evangelio inquiratur , Let it be inquired in the Gospel : And Christ put it in tabulas diu duraturas , into Written and lasting Instruments . In S. Augustine the words are : Our Father did not dye intestate , &c. And Tabul● aperiantur , Let his Will , his written Instruments be opened . And Legantur Verba mortui , Let the words of him that dyed , be read . And again , Aperi , Legamus , Open the Will , and let us read . And Legamus , quid litigamus ? Why do we strive ? Let 's read the Will. And again , Aperi Testamentum , lege , Open the Will , read . All which Passages are most express and full for his Written Will , and not for any Nuncupative Will , as Baldwin would put upon us . And Hart who takes the same way with Baldwin , is not able to make it out , as appears by Dr. Reynolds in his Conference with Hart , c. 8. divis. 1. p. 396 , &c. Scripture pronouncing by the Church . And there is a visible and a Living Judge , but not Infallible ; and that is a General Councel , lawfully called , and so proceeding . But I know no formal Confirmation of it needful ( though A. C. require it , * * §. 28. Num. 1. And so plainly S. Augustine speaking of S. Cyprians Error about Rebaptization , &c. says , Illis temporibus antequàm Plenarii Concilii sententia quid in hac ●e sequendum esset , totius Ecclesiae Consensio confirmasset , Visum est ei cum , &c. L. 1. de Bapt. cont. Donatist . ● . 18. So , here is first Sententia Conci●i : And then the Confirmation of it is totius Ecclesiae Consensio , the Consent of the whole Church yeelding unto it . And so Gerson . Concurrente universali totius Ecclesiae consensu , &c. In Declaratione Veritatum quae credendae sunt , &c. §. 4. For this , that the Pope must confirm it , or else the General Councel is invalid , is one of the Roman Novelties . For this cannot be shewed in any Antiquity void of just Exception . The truth is , the Pope as other Patriarchs and great Bishops used to do , did give his assent to such Councels as he approved . But that is no Corroboration of the Councel , as if it were invalid without it : but a Declaration of his consenting with the rest . §. 33. Consid. 4 Num. 6. ) but only that after it is ended , the Whole Church admit it , be it never so tacitely .

Num. 2 In the next Place , A. C. interposes new matter quite out of A. C. p. 59 , 60. the Conference . And first in case of Distractions and Disunion in the Church , he would know , what is to be done to Re-unite , when a General Councel ( which is acknowledged a fit Judge ) cannot be had by reason of manifold impediments : Or if being called , will not be of one mind ? Hath Christ our Lord ( saith he ) in this Case provided no Rule , no Judge Infallibly to determine Controversies , and to procure Unity and Certainty of Belief ? Indeed the Protestants admit no Infallible Means , Rule , or Judge , but only Scripture , which every man may interpret , as he pleaseth , and so all shall be uncertain . Truly , I must confess , there are many Impediments to hinder the Calling of a General Councel . You know in the Ancient Church there was † † Christian●tas in diversas Haereses sc●ssa est , quia non erat licentia Episcopis in unum convenire , persecutione saeviente usque ad tempora Constantini , &c. Isidor . praefat. in Concil. Edit. Venet. 1585. hinderance enough , and what hurt it wrought . And afterward though it were long first , there was provision made for ‖ ‖ Prequens Generalium Conciliorum celebratio est praecipua cultura Agri Dominici , &c. Et illorum neglectus Errores , Haereses , & Schismata disseminat . Hec praeteritorum temporum recordatio & praesentium consideratio ante oculos nostros ponunt . Itaque sancimus , ut à modò Concilia Generalia celebrentur ; ita quod Primum à fine hujus Concilii in quinquennium immediatè sequens , Secundum verò à fine illius in septen●ium , & dei●ceps de decennio in decennium perpetuò celebrantur , &c. Concil. Constant. Sess. 39. Et apud Gerson , Tom. 1. p. 230. Et Pet. de Aliaco Card. Cameracensis lib●llum obtulit in Concil. Constant. de Reformatione Ecclesi● contra ●●inionem eorum qui putarunt Concilia Generalia minus necessaria esse , quia Omnia benè à Patribus nostris ordinata s●●t , &c. In fascic . Rerum expetendarum . sol . 28. Et Schismatibus debet Ecclesia citò per Concilia Generalia provideri , ut in Primitiva Ecclesia docuerunt Apostoli , ut Act. 6. & Act. 15. Ibid. fol. 204. A. frequent calling of Councels , and yet no Age since saw them called according to that Provision in every Circumstance ; therefore Impediments there were enough , or else some declined them wilfully , though there were no Impediments . Nor will I deny , but that when they were called , there were as many * * In Concil. Ariminensi multis pa●corum fraude deceptis , &c. S. Aug L. 3. contra Maximinum , ● . 〈◊〉 . Practices to disturb or pervert the Councels . And these Practices were able to keep many Councels from being all of one mind . But if being called , they will not be of one mind , I cannot help that ; Though that very not agreeing is a shrewd sign , that the other Spirit hath a party there against the Holy Ghost .

Now A. C. would know , what is to be done for Re-uniting NUM. 3 of a Church divided in Doctrine of the Faith ; when this Remedy by a General Councel cannot be had ; Sure Christ our Lord ( saith he ) hath provided some Rule , some Judge in such and such like Cases to procure unity and certainty of Belief . I believe so too ; for he hath left an Infallible Rule , the Scripture . And that by the manifest Places in it ( which need no Dispute , no External Judge ) is * * Non per difficiles nos Deus ad Beatam vitam Quaestiones vocat , &c. In absoluto nobis & facili est aeter●itas ; Jesum suscitatum à mortuis per Deum Credere , & Ipsum esse Dominum confiteri , &c. S. Hilar. L. 10. de Trin. ad finem . able to settle Unity and Certainty of Belief in Necessaries to Salvation ; And in Non necessariis , in and about things not necessary , there ought not to be a Contention to a † † Cyprianus & Collegae ipsi●● credentes Haereticos & Schismaticos Baptismum non habere , sint Baptismo re●●●tis , &c. iis tamen communicare quam separari ab ●nitate maluerunt . S. Aug. ● . 2 de Baptis . contra Donatist . c. 6. Et bi non contaminabant Cyprianum . Ibid. sine . Separation .

Num. 4 And therefore A. C. does not well , to make that a Crime , that the Protestants admit no Infallible Rule , but the Scripture only : Or as he ( I doubt not without some scorn ) terms it , beside only Scripture . For what need is there of another , since this is most Infallible ; and the same which the * *

Recensuit cuncta sanctis Scripturis consona . Euseb. L. 5. Hist. c. 20. De Irenaeo . Regula Principalis de qu● Paracletus agnitus . Tert. de Monogam , c. 2. And this is true , though the Author spake it , when he was Lapsed . Ipsas Scripturas apprimè tenens . S. Hieron . ad Marcellum adversus Montanum . Tom. 2. Hoc quia de Scripturis non habet authoritatem , eâdem sacilitate non contemnitur , quâ probatur . S. Hieron . in S. Matth. 23.

Manifestus est fidei lapsus , & liquidum superbiae vitium , vel respu●re aliquid corum quae Scriptura habet , vel inducere quicquam quod scriptum non est . S. Basil. Serm. de Fide . Tom. 2. p. 154. Edit. Basileae , 1565.

Contra insurgentes Hereses s●pe pugnavi Agraphis , verum non alienis à piâ secun●●● Scripturam sententiâ . Ibid . p. 153.

And before Basil , Tertul. Adoro Scripturae plenitudinem , &c. si non est scriptum , timeat Hermogenes . 〈◊〉 illud adjicientibus vel detrabeatibus destinatum . Tertul advers. Hermog. c. 22.

And Paulinus plainly calls it Regulam Directionis , Epist. 23.

De ●●c Regul● tria observanda sunt . 1. Regula est , sed à tempore quo scripta . 2. Regula est , sed per Ecclesiam applicanda , non per privatum Spiritum . 3. Regula est , & mensurat omnia quae continet : continet autem , omnia necessaria ad salutem vel mediatè vel immediatè . Et hoc tertium habet . Biel. ●● 3. D. 25. q. ●●ic● . ●onclus . 4. M. And this is all we say . Hook . L. 5. Eccles. Pol. §. 22.

Ancient Church of Christ admitted ? And if it were sufficient for the Antient Church to guide them , and direct their Councels , why should it be now held insufficient for us , at least , till a free General Councel may be had ? And it hath both the Conditions which † † Regula Catholicae fidei debet esse certa & nota . Si certa non sit , non erit Regula . Si nota non sit , non erit Regula nobis . Bellar. L. 1. de Verbo Dei , c. 2. §. 5. Sed nihil est vel certius vel no●●●s Sacrâ Scriptur● . Bellarm. ibid. §. 6. Therefore the Holy Scripture is the Rule of Catholike Faith , both in it self , and to us also ; For in things simply necessary to Salvation , it is abundantly known and manifest , as §. 16. Nu. 5. Bellarmine requires to a Rule . Namely , that it be Certain , and that it be Known ; For if it be not certain , it is no Rule ; and if it be not known , 't is no Rule to us . Now the ‖ ‖ Convenit inter nos & omnes omninò Haereticos , Verbum Dei esse Regulam sidei , ex quâ de D●g●natibus judicandum sit . Bellarm. Praefat. Tom. 1. fine . And although there perhaps he includes Traditions , yet that was never proved yet . Neither indeed can he include Traditions . For he speaks of that Word of God , upon which all Hereticks consent : But concerning Traditions , they all consent not , That they are a Rule of Faith . Therefore he speaks not of them . Romanists dare not deny , but this Rule is Certain ; and that it is sufficiently Known in the manifest Places of it , and such as are necessary to Salvation , none of the Antients did ever deny ; so there 's an Infallible Rule .

Num. 5 Nor need there be such fear of a Private Spirit in these manifest things , which being but read , or heard , teach themselves . Indeed you Romanists had need of some other Judge , and he a propitious one , to crush the Pope's more powerful Principality out of Pasce oves , feed my sheep . And yet this must be the meaning ( if you will have it ) whether Gideon's fleece be wet , or dry , Judg. 6. that is , whether there be dew enough in the Judg. 6. Text , to water that sense or no. But I pray , when God hath left his Church this Infallible Rule , what warrant have you to seek another ? You have shewed us none yet , what e're you think you have . And I hope A. C. cannot think , it follows , that Christ our Lord hath provided no Rule to determine necessary Controversies , because he hath not provided the Rule , which he would have .

Num. 6 Besides , let there be such a living Judge , as A. C. would have , and let the * * For so he affirms , p. 58. Pope be he ; yet that is not sufficient against the malice of the Devil , and impious men , to keep the Church at all Times from Renting , even in the Doctrine of Faith ; or to soder the Rents which are made . For Oportet esse Haereses , 1 Cor. 11. Heresies there will be , and Heresies properly there 1 Cor. 11. 19. cannot be , but in Doctrine of the Faith . And what will A. C. in this Case do ? Will he send Christ our Lord to provide another Rule than the Decision of the Bishop of Rome , because he can neither make Unity , nor Certainty of Belief ? And ( as 't is most apparent ) he cannot do it de facto ; so neither hath he power from Christ over the Whole Church to do it : nay out of all doubt , 't is not the least reason , why de facto he hath so little success , because de Jure he hath no power given . But since A. C. requires another Judge besides the Scripture , and in Cases , when either the time is so difficult , that a General Councel cannot be called ; or the Councel so set , that they will not agree ; Let 's see , how he proves it .

Num. 7 'T is thus ; every earthly Kingdom ( saith he ) when matters A. C. p. 60. cannot be composed by a Parliament ( which cannot be called upon all Occasions ; why doth he not add here , And which being called , will not always be of one mind , as he did add it in Case of the Councel ? ) hath , besides the Law-Books , some living Magistrates and Judges , and above all , one visible King , the Highest Judge , who hath Authority sufficient to end all Controversies , and settle Unity in all Temporal Affairs . And shall we think that Christ the wisest King hath provided in his Kingdom , the Church , only the Law-Books of the Holy-Scripture , and no living visible Judges , and above all , one Chief , so assisted by his Spirit as , may suffice to end all Controversies for Unity and Certainty of Faith ; which can never be , if every man may interpret Holy Scripture , the Law-Books , as he list ? This is a very plausible Argument with the Many . But the foundation of it is but a * * Qu● subtilissi●● de hoc disputari possunt , ità ut non similitudinibus quae plerunque fallunt , sed rebus ipsis satisfiat , &c. S. August . L. de Quant . Animae , cap. 32. Whereupon the Logicians tell us rightly , that this is a Fallacie , unless it be taken reduplicativè , i. e. de similibus qua similia sunt : And hence Aristotle himself 2 sop . Loc. 32. says , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Rursum in Similibus , si similitèr se habent . Similitude ; and if the Similitude hold not in the main , the Argument's nothing . And so I doubt , it will prove here . I 'le observe Particulars , as they lie in order .

Num. 8 And first , he will have the whole Militant Church ( for of that we speak ) a Kingdom . But this is not certain : For they are no mean ones , which think our Saviour Christ left the Church Militant in the Hands of the Apostles , and their Successors , in an Aristocratical , or rather a Mixt Government ; and that the Church is not * *

When Gerson writ his Tract De Auseribilitate Papae , sure he thought the Church might continue in a very good Being , without a Monarchical Head ; Therefore , in his Judgment , the Church is not by any Command or Institution of Christ , Monarchical . Gerson . par. 1. pag. 154.

When S. Hierome wrote thus : [ Ubicunque fuerit Episcopus , sive Romae , sive Eugubii , sive Constantinopoli , sive Rhegii , sive Alexandriae , sive Tanis ; ejusdem meriti , ejusdem est & Sacerdotil . S. Hieron . Epist. ad Evagrium , ] doubtless he thought not of the Roman Bishops Monarchy . For what Bishop is of the same Merir , or of the same Degree in the Priesthood with the Pope , as things are now carried at Rome ? Affirma●●ls etiam , Patribus & Graecis & Latinis , ignotas esse voces de Petro aut Papa Monarcha & Monarchia . Nam quod in superioribus observabamus reperiri eas dictiones positas pro Episcopo , & Episcopatu , nihil hoc ad rem sacit . Isa Casaub. Exercitatione 15. ad Annales Eccles. Baron . §. 12. p. 378. & §. 11. p. 360. disertè asserit & probat Ecclesie Regimen Aristocraticum fuisse .

Monarchical otherwise than the Triumphant and Militant make one Body under Christ the Head . And in this sense indeed , and in this only , the Church is a most absolute Kingdom . And the very Expressing of this sense is a full Answer to all the Places of Scripture , and other Arguments brought by † † Bellar. L. 2. de Concil. c. 16. §. 1 , 2 , 3. Bellarm. to prove that the Church is a Monarchy . But the Church being as large as the world , Christ thought it fitter to govern it Aristocratically , by Divers , rather than by One Vice-Roy . And I believe this is true . For all the time of the first three hundred years , and somewhat better , it was governed Aristocratically , if we will impartially consider , how the Bishops of those times carried the whole Business of admitting any new consecrated Bishops or others to , or rejecting them from their Communion . For I have carefully Examined this for the first six hundred years , even to , and within the time of S. Gregory the great . ‖ ‖ S. Greg. L. 9. Epist. 58. & L. 12. Epist. 15. Who in the beginning of the seventh hundred year sent such Letters to Augustine then Archbishop of Canterbury , and to * * S. Greg. L. 9. Epist. 61. Quirinus , and other Bishops in Ireland ; And I finde , That the Literae Communicatoriae which certified from one Great Patriarch to another , who were fit or unfit to be admitted to their Communion , if they upon any Occasion repaired to their Seas , were sent mutually . And as freely , and in the same manner from Rome to the other Patriarchs , as from them to it . Out of which , I think , this will follow most directly , That the Church-Government then was Aristocratical . For had the Bishop of Rome been then accounted Sole Monarch of the Church , and been put into the Definition of the Church ( as he is now by * * ●●●lar . L. ● . de Eccles. ● . ● . § Nostr● a●●●●● . Bellarmine ) all these Communicatory Letters should have been directed from him to the rest , as whose admittance ought to be a Rule for all to Communicate ; but not from others to him , or at least not in that even , equal , and Brotherly way , as now they appear to be written . For it is no way probable , that the Bishops of Rome , which even then sought their own Greatness too much , would have submitted to the other Patriarchs voluntarily , had not the very Course of the Church put it upon them .

Num. 9 Besides , this is a great and undoubted Rule , given by * * Non enim Respublica est in Ecclesiâ : sed Ecclesia in Republic● : ● . ci●● Imperis R 〈…〉 . Optat . L. ● . Optatus , That wheresoever there is a Church , there the Church is in the Common-wealth , not the Common-wealth in the Church . And so also the Church was in the Roman Empire . Now from this Ground I argue thus : If the Church be within the Empire or other Kingdom , 't is impossible the Government of the Church should be Monarchical . For no Emperor or King will indure another King within his Dominion that shall be greater than himself , since the very induring it , makes him that indures it , upon the matter , no Monarch . Nor will it disturb this Argument : That two Great Kings in France and Spain permit this . For he that is not blind , may see , if he will , of what little value the Pope's power is in those Kingdoms , farther than to serve their own turns of Him , which They do to their great advantage . Nay farther , the Ancient Canons and Fathers of the Church seem to me plain for this : For the a a Concil. Antioch . ● . 9. p. 507. Councel of Antioch submits Ecclesiastical Causes to the Bishops . And what was done amiss by a Bishop , was corrigible by a b b Concil. 〈◊〉 . 1. ● . ● . & Antioch . ● ▪ 12. Synod of Bishops , but this with the c c Concil. Nic. 1. ● . 4. & Antioch . Can. 9. Metropolitane . And in Case these did not agree , the d d Concil. Antioch . ● . 14. Metropolitane might call in other Bishops out of the neighbouring Provinces . And if Things setled not this way , a General Councel ( e e Sed ▪ praep●●itur Scriptura . S. Aug. L. ● . de Bapti●●●● . Donat. c. 3. under the Scripture , and directed by it ) was the Highest Remedy . And f f Nam cum Statutum si● omnibus nobis . &c. & singulis Pastoribus portio gregis , &c. S. Cypr. L. 1. Ep. 3. S. Cyprian even to Pope Cornelius himself says plainly : That to every Bishop is ascribed a portion of the flock for him to govern . And so not all committed to One. In all this the Government of the Church seems plainly Aristocratical . And if all other Arguments fail , we have one left from Bellarmine , who opposes it as much as any , g g Bellar. L. 1. de Rom. Pont. c. 8. & L. 2. de Concil. c. 16. twice for failing . And yet , where he goes to Exclude Secular Princes from Church-Government , h h Bellar. L. 1. de Rom. Pont. c. 7. all his Quotations , and all his Proofs run upon this Head , to shew , That the Government of the Church was ever in the Bishops . What says i i A. C. p. 64 , 65. A. C. now to the Confession of this great Adversary , and in this great Point , extorted from him by force of Truth ? Now if this be true , then the whole foundation of this Argument is gone . The Church Militant is no Kingdom ; and therefore not to be Compared , or Judged by One. The Resemblance will not hold .

Num. 10 Next , suppose it a Kingdom : yet the Church Militant remaining one , is spread in many Earthly Kingdoms ; and cannot well be ordered like any one particular * * Licèt sit Expediens quòd uni Populo partiali fideli praesit unus Episcopus ; non expedit tamen quod toti populo fideli praesit unus solus . Tum quia omnia Negotia unius populi partialis potest sustineve unus solus : Nullus autem unus potest ●●sti●ere omnia Negotia etiam majora omnium Christianorum . Tum ▪ quia minus malum est , ut populus partialis & parvus inficiatur ab uno Episcopo , quàm ut totus , vel ferè totus populus Christianus inficiatur ab uno Capite , quod omnibus praefit . Ockam , L. 2. Dial. Tract. 1. p. 3. c. 30. ad 8. And besides this of Ockam : To that Common Argument , That Monarchieal Government is the best , and therefore undoubtedly that which Christ instituted for his Church ▪ 't is sufficient to Answer , That a Monarchy is the best form of Government in one City or Country . Arist. L. 8. Moral . c. 10. But it follows not , That it is the best in respect of the whole world ; where the Parts are to remote , and the dispositions of men so various . And therefore Bellarm. himself confesses : Monarchiam Aristocratiae & Democratiae admi●●tam utiliorem esse in hác vitâ , quam simplex Monarchia ● . ● . L. 1. de Rom. Pout . c. 3. §. 1. Kingdom . And therefore , though in one particular Kingdom there be many Visible Judges , and one Supreme : yet it follows not , That in the Universal Militant Church there must be one Supreme . For how will he enter to Execute his Office , if the Kings of those Kingdoms will not give leave ?

Now here , though A. C. expresses himself no farther , yet I NUM. 11. well know , what he and his Fellows would be at . They would not be troubled to ask leave of any several Kings in their several Dominions . No : they would have one Emperor over all the Kings , as well as One Pope over all the Bishops . And then you know * * In the first Gloss ascribed to Isidore , in Gen. 1. 16. 't is Per Solem intelligitur Regnum ; per Lunam , Sacerdotium . But Innoceu● the Third , almost six hundred years after Isidore's death , perverts both Text and Gloss. Thus : Ad firmamentum Coeli , ● . ● . Universalis Ecclesiae , fecit Deus duo magna I●mi●aria , hoc est , duas instituit Potestates , Pontificalem , & Regalem , &c. Ut quanta inter Sole● & Lunam , tanta inter Pountifices & Reges differentia cognoscatur . Epist. ad Imperat. Constantinopolitanum . Decret. L. 1. de Majoritate & Obedientia . Tit. 33 , cap. Solitae . who told us of two great Lights to govern the World , the Sun and the Moon , that is , the Pope and the Emperor . At the first it began with more modesty , The Emperor and the Pope . And that was somewhat Tolerable . For † † Ecclesia Militans s●pt in Scripturis dicitur Luna , propter Mutabilitatem , &c. S. Aug. Epist. 119. c. 6. S. Augustine tells us , That the Militant Church is often in Scripture called the Moon , both for the many Changes it hath , and for its obscurity in many times of its peregrination . And he tells us too , That if we will understand this place of Scripture in a Spiritual Sense : ‖ ‖ Intelligimus spiritualiter Ecclesiam , &c. Et hîc quis est S●● , ●is● Sol Justitiae ● &c. S. Aug. in Psal. 103. Our Saviour Christ is the Sun , and the Militant Church , as being full of changes in her estate , the Moon . But now it must be a Triumphant Church here ; Militant no longer . The Pope must be the Sun , and the Emperor but the Moon . And lest Innocents own power should not be able to make good his Decretal ; * * Gasp. Schiop . L. dicto Ecclesiasticus , c. 145. Gasper Schioppi●● doth not only avow the Allusion or Interpretation , but is pleased to express many Circumstances , in which he would f●in make the world believe the Resemblance holds . And lest any man should not know how much the Pope is made greater than the Emperor by this Comparison ; the * * Igitur cùm terra sit septies major Lun● , Sol autem octies major terrâ , restat ergo ut Pontificalis dignitas quadragesles septies sit major Regali diguitate . Gloss. in Decret. praedict , Where first the Gloss is out in his Latine . He might have said Quadragies : for Quadragesies is no word . Next , he is out in his Arithmetick . For eight times seven makes not forty seven , but fifty six . And then he is much to blame for drawing down the Pope's power from fifty six to forty seven . And lastly , this Allusion hath no ground of Truth at all . For the Emperor , being Solo Deo minor , Tertul. ad Scap. cannot be a Moon to any other Sun . Gloss furnishes us with that too : and tells us , that by this it appears , that since the Earth is seven times greater than the Moon , and the Sun eight times greater than the Earth ; it must needs follow , that the Pope's power is forty seven times greater than the Emperor's . I like him well , he will make odds enough . But what , doth Innocent the Third give no Reason of this his Decretal ? Yes . And it is ( saith he ) † † Sed illa Potestas , quae praeest diebus , i. c. in Spiritualibus , major est ; quae verò Carnalibus , minor . Innocent. 3. ubi supra . because the Sun , which rules in the day , that is , in Spiritual things , is greater than the Moon , which rules but in the night , and in carnal things . But is it possible that Innocentius the Third , being so wise , and so able , as ‖ ‖ Ut post ejus mortem , nihil eorum quae in hac vita egerit , la●daverit , aut improbaverit , immutatum sit . Platina in vita ejus . that nothing which he did , or commended , or disproved in all his life , should after his death be thought fit to be changed , could think that such an Allusion of Spiritual things to the Day , which the Sun governs , and Worldly Business to the Night , which the Moon governs , should carry weight enough with it to depress Imperial power lower than God hath made it ? Out of doubt he could not . For he Rom. 13. 1. well knew that Omnis Anima , every Soul was to be subject to the Higher Power , Rom. 13. And the * * Patres veteres , & praecipuè August . Epist. 54. Apostolum interpretantur de Potestate seculari tantum loqui , quod & ipse Textus subindicat , &c. Salmeron , Disput. 4. in Rom. 13. §. Porr● per Potestatem . Higher Power there mentioned , is the Temporal . And the † † 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 &c. Omnibus ista imperantur , & Sacerdotibus & Monachis , &c. Et postea . Etiamsi Apostolus s●s , si Evangelesta , si Propheta , sive quisquis tandem fueris . S. Chrysost. Hom. 23. in Rom. Sive est Sacerdos , sive Antistes , &c. Theodoret. in Rom. 13. Si omnis Anima , & vestra . Quis vos ex●ipit ab Universitate ? &c. Ipsi sunt qu● vobis dicere solent , servate vestrae Sedis bonorem , &c. Sed Christus aliter & Jussit , & Gessit , &c. S. Bern. Epist. 42. ad Henricum Senonensem Archiepiscopum . Et Theophylact . in Rom. 13. Where it is very observable , that Theophylact lived in the time of Pope Gregory the Seventh ; And S. Bernard after it , and yet this Truth obtained then . And this was about the year 1130. Ancient Fathers come in with a full consent , That Omnis Anima , every Soul , comprehends there all without any Exception : All Spiritual men , even to the Highest Bishop ; and in Spiritual Causes too , so the Foundations of Faith and Good Manners be not shaken . And where they are shaken , there ought to be Prayer and Patience , there ought not to be Opposition by force . Nay he knew well that ‖ ‖ An fortè de Religione fas non est ut dicat Imperator , vel quos miserit Imperator ? Cur ergo ad Imperatorem vistri venere Legati ? Cur enim secerunt causae suae Judicem , noa secutari quod ille judicaret ? &c. S. Aug. L. 1. cont. Epist. Parmen. c. 9. Et Quaestio fuit , an pertineret ad Imperatorem adversus eos aliquid statuere qui prava in Religione sectantur . Ibid Nor can this be said to be usurpation in the Emperor . Nam S. August . alibi sic . Ad Imperatoris curam , de ▪ quâ rationem Deo redditurus est , Res illa maximè pertinebat . S. Aug. Epist. 162. & Epist. 50. Quis mente sobrius Regibus dicat : Nolite cu●are in Regno vestro ● quo tentatur , vel opp●g●etur Ecclesia Domini vestri ? &c. Antiquitas rectè dixit , Magistratus est custos Legis , scilicet Primae & Secundae Tabulae , quod ad disciplinam 〈◊〉 . Confessio Saxonica , §. 23. & Gerardus , Tom. 6. Locorum , c. 6. §. 5. Membro 1. probat ex Deut. 17. 18. Emperors and Kings are Custodes utriusque Tabulae : They , to whom the custody and preservation of both Tables of the Law for worship to God , and duty to man , are committed . That a Book of the Law was by Gods own Command in Moses his time , to be given the King , * * Deut. 17. 18. Deut. 17. That the Kings under that Law , but still according to it , did proceed to Necessary Reformations in Church-Businesses ; and therein Commanded the very Priests themselves , as appears in the Acts of † † 2 Chron. 29. 4. Hezekiah and ‖ ‖ 4 Reg. 23. 2. Josiah , who yet were never Censured to this day for usurping the High-Priests Office . Nay , he knew full well , That the greatest Emperors for the Churches Honour , Theodosius the Elder , and Justinian , and Charles the Great , and divers other , did not only meddle now and then , but did inact Laws to the great Settlement and Increase of Religion in their several times . But then if this could not be the Reason , why Innocentius made this strange Allusion , what was ? Why truly , I 'le tell you . The Pope was now grown to a great , and a firm height . * * Hic Maximus Pontifex totius Ecclesiasticae Libertatis ●●nicus Assertor . Onuph . in Plat. in Greg 7. For taking Occasion by the War which Henry the Fourth had with the Saxons and their neighbours , and the complaint of the Saxons made to the Pope ( of which Platina in the life of Gregory the Seventh ) the Pope wise enough for his own advantages , sought not only to free himself from the Emperor , but to make the Emperor subject to him ; and for this the History is plain enough . Gregory the Seventh had set the Popedom upon a broad bottom before this Innocents time . So that now 't is the less wonder , if he make so bold with the Emperor , as to depress him as low as the Moon , upon no better ground , than a groundless Resemblance . But beside this prime Reason , there are divers other , which may easily be drawn out of the same Resemblance . For since Innocentius his main aim was to publish the Popes greatness over Kings and Emperors : Why doth he not tell us , That the Pope is as the Sun , and the Emperor as the Moon ? Because as the Moon borrows all her light from the Sun : So the Emperor borrows all his true light from the Pope . Or because as the Moon still increases in light so long as she follows the Sun , but so soon as ever she steps before the Sun she waines presently , and her light decreases : So the Emperor , so long as he is content to follow the Pope , and do all that he would have him , his light , and his power , encrease ; but if he do but offer to step before ( though that be his proper place ) then his light , and honour , and power , and all decrease . And this Pope Gregory the Seventh made too good upon the Emperour Henry the Third . And Pope Adrian the Fourth , and Alexander the Fourth , and Lucius the Third , with some others , upon Frederick Barbarossa . And some other Emperours were alike serv'd , where they did not submit . And I hope no man will blame the Popes Holiness for this . For , if the Emperours kept the Popes under for divers years together , whereas * * Papa utpote Regis Regum Vicarius nunquam erat de jure subditus Imperatoribus terrenis . sed quia tum Potestas ejus non erat nota : — & quia viribus temporalibus destitutus erat , vellet , nollet , subjectus esse cogebatur . Bellar. in Apologia , c. 15. Respous . ad Me●dacium . 10. And Bellarmine is at the same Argument for Deposing of Kings too : Quia deerant vires temporales Christiants . Bellar. L. 5. de Rom. Pont. c. 7. §. Quod si Christiani . Now this is a most lowd untruth , as appears in Tertullian , who lived about the year 200 under Severus . And the Christians then had strength enough against the Emperor , had they had right enough with it . Bellarmine tells us it was against all right they should so do , the Pope being never rightfully subject unto them , I hope the Pope having now got power enough , may keep the Emperors under , and not suffer them any more to step before the Sun , lest like Moons as they are , they lose all their Light . Or because as the Moon is but Vicaria Solis , the Vicar or Substitute of the Sun , as † † L. de Monar . Philo tells us : So the Emperor , at least in all Spiritual Causes , is but the Popes Substitute , and that for the Night , that his Holiness may sleep the quieter on the other side of the Sphere . Or lastly ( if you will abuse the Scripture , as you too often do , and as Innocentius did in the Decretal very grosly ) you may say 't is , because the Woman , which all grant represented the Church , ‖ ‖ Revel. 12. 1. Revel. 12. is clothed with the Sun , that is , with the glorious rays of the Pope , and had the Moon , that is , the * * Sic enim Alexander Tertius collum Frederici Primi pede comprimebat , & dixit , Scriptum est , Super aspidem & basiliscum , &c. Jo. Nauclerus , Chron. Generatione 40. circa An. 1170. Gen. 1. 16. Emperor , under her feet . For this is as good , as literal , as proper an interpretation of these words , as that of Innocentius is of the words Gen. 1. God made two great Lights , the greater light to Rule the day , and the less to rule the night . Thus he or you may give your wits leave to play , if you will , for the Popes Decretal is a meer fancie . But the true reason indeed , why Innocentius made it , was that above mentioned . He was now in that greatness , that he thought he might pass any thing upon the Christian world , that pleased him : And was therefore resolved to bring it into the Body of the Canon , that after-times might have a Law to legitimate and make good their Predecessors usurpation over Emperors and Kings . And rather then fail of this , he would not spare the abusing of Scripture it self . Where by the way , dares A. C. say this Pope did not erre in Cathedrâ , when he was so dazled between the Sun and the Moon , that he wanted light in the midst of it , to expound Scripture ? Well , I would have the Jesuites leave their practising , and remember , First , that one Emperor will not always be able to establish and preserve one only Uniform practise and Exercise of Religion . Secondly , that supposing he both can and will so do , yet the Jesuites cannot be certain , that that one Uniform Exercise of Religion shall be the Romane Catholike . And Thirdly , That as there is a Body of Earth , a world of Confusion to Eclipse their Moon the Emperor : so in the same way , and by like interposition , the Moon when 't is grown too near in Conjunction , may Eclipse their Sun the Pope . And there is no great doubt but he will , considering what some great Kings make of the Popes Power at this day , when it pleases them .

Num. 12 And since we are in this Comparison between the Sun and the Moon , give me leave a little farther to examine , who A. C. and his fellow-Jesuites with some others would have to be this one Emperor . I am not willing to meddle with any the secret Designes of Forein States : but if they will express their Designes in print , or publish them by Great and Full Authority , I hope then it shall be neither unlawful , nor unfit for me , either to take notice , or to make use of them . Why then you may be pleased to know , They would have another Translation of the Empire from Germany to Spain . They think belike this Emperors line , though in the same House , is not Catholike enough . And if you ask me , how I know this secret , I will not take it up upon any common report , though , I well know what that says . But I 'le tell you how I know it . Somewhat above four hundred years after Innocentius made his Comment upon the two great Lights , the Sun , and the Moon , the Pope and the Emperor : * * John de Puente , La Convenientia de las des Monarquias Catolicas la de la Iglesia Romana , y la del Imperio Espaniol , y defensa de la precedentia de los Reyes Catolicos de Espania à ●odos los Reyes del mundo . a Spanish Friar follows the same resemblance between the Monarchies of Rome and Spain , in a Tract of his , intitled : The Agreement of the two Catholike Monarchies , and Printed in Spanish in Madrid , Anno 1612. In the Frontispiece or Title-page of this Book there are set out two Scutchions : The one bearing the Cross-Keys of Rome : The other the Arms of Castile and Leon , both joyned together with this Motto ; In vinculo pacis , in the bond of peace . On the one side of this there is a Portraiture resembling Rome , with the Sun shining over it , and darting his beams on S. Peters Keys , with this Inscription : † † Luminare Majus , ut praesit ●rbi & Orbi . Luminare Majus , the greater Light , that it may govern the City ( that is Rome ) and the whole world . And on the other side there 's another Image designing Spain , with the Moon shining over that , and spreading forth its Rays upon the Spanish Scutchion , with this Impress : ‖ ‖ Luminare Minus , ut subdatur Urbi , & dominetur Orbi . Luminare minus , the less Light , that it may be subject to the City ( of Rome he means ) and so be Lord to govern the whole world besides . And over all this in the top of the Title-page , there is Printed in Capital Letters , Fecit-Dens duo Luminaria magna , God made two great Lights . There follows after in this Author a Discovery at large of this Blazoning of these Arms ; but this is the Substance of it , and abundantly enough to shew what is aimed at , by whom , and for whom . And this Book was not stollen out without the will and consent of the State . For it hath Printed before it all manner of Licence , that a Book can well have . For it hath the approbation of Father Pedro de Buyza , of the Company of the Jesuites . Of John de Arcediano , Provincial of the Dominicans . Of Diego Granero , the Licencer appointed for the Supreme Councel of the Inquisition . And some of these revised this Book by * * Por Orden de los Seniores del Cons●io Supremo . Order from the Lords of that Councel . And last of all the † † Por Mandado del Rey nuestro Senior . Kings Priviledge is to it , with high Commendation of the Work . But the Spaniards had need look to it for all this , lest the French deceive them . For now lately Friar Campanella hath set out an Eclogue upon the Birth of the Dolphin , and that Permissu Superiorum , by Licence from his Superiors . In which he says expresly , ‖ ‖ Quum Gallia al at 20000000 bominum . Ex singulis centenis sumendo unum colligit 200000 strenuorum militum ●●ipend●atorum , commodè , 〈◊〉 . Propterea omnes terrae Principes met●●●●t n●●e magis d Galli● , quàm 〈◊〉 ab aliis ; Paratur enim illi Regnum Universale . ● . The. Campanellae Ecloga in Principis Galliarum Delphini Nativitatem , cum Annot. Discip. Parisiis . 1639. Cum Permissu Superiorum . That all Princes are now more afraid of France than ever , for that there is provided for it Regnum Universale , The Universal Kingdom , or Monarchy .

Num. 13 But 't is time to Return . For A. C. in this passage hath been A. C. p. 60. very Careful to tell us of a Parliament , and of Living Magistrates and Judges besides the Law-Books . Thirdly , therefore the Church of England ( God be thanked ) thrives happily under a Gracious Prince , and well understands that a Parliament cannot be called at all times : And that there are Visible Judges , besides the Law-Books , and One Supreme ( long may he be , and be happy ) to settle all Temporal differences ( which certainly , he might much better perform , if his Kingdoms were well rid of A. C. and his fellows . ) And she believes too , That our Saviour Christ hath left in his Church , besides his Law-book the Scripture , Visible Magistrates , and Judges , that is , Archbishops and Bishops , under a gracious King , to govern both for Truth and Peace according to the Scripture , and her own Canons and Constitutions , as also those of the Catholike Church , which cross not the Scripture , and the Just Laws of the Realm . * * Non est necesse , ut sub Christo fit u●us Rector totius Ecclesiae , sed sufficit quod sint plures regentes divers as Provincias , sicut sunt plures Reges gubernantes plura regna . Ocham . Di●l . L. 2. Tract. 1. p. 1. c. 30. ad 1. But she doth not believe there is any Necessity to have one Pope , or Bishop over the Whole Christian world , more than to have one Emperour over the whole world . Which were it possible , She cannot think fit . Nor are any of these intermediate Judges , or that One , which you would have Supreme , Infallible .

But since a Kingdom , and a Parliament please A. C. so well NUM. 14 : A. C. p. 60. to patern the Church by , I 'le follow him in the way he goes , and be bold to put him in minde , that in some Kingdoms there are divers Businesses of greatest Consequence , which cannot be finally and bindingly ordered , but in and by Parliament . And particularly the Statute-Laws which must bind all the Subjects , cannot be made , and ratified , but there . Therefore according to A. C.'s own Argument , there will be some Businesses also found , ( Is not the setling of the Divisions of Christendom one of them ? ) which can never be well setled ▪ but in a * * Propter difectam Conciliorum Generalium totius Ecclesiae , que sola audet intrepicè corrigere omnes , ea mala quae Universalem tangunt Ecclesiam , manentia diu incorrecta crescunt , &c. Gerson . Declarat . Defectuum V●●orum Ecclesiasticorum , Tom. 1. p. 209. General Councel : And particularly the making of Canons , which must binde all Particular Christians , and Churches , cannot be concluded , and established , but there . And again , as the Supreme Magistrate in the State Civil , may not abrogate the Laws made in Parliament ; though he may Dispense with the Sanction , or penalty of the Law quoad hic & nunc , as the Lawyers speak : So in the Ecclesiastical Body , no Bishop , no not the Pope ( where his Supremacie is admitted ) hath power to † † Sunt enim Indissolubilia Decreta , quibus reverentia debita est . Prosper cont. Collatorem , c. 1. And Turrecremata , who says every thing that may be said for the Popes Supremacie , yet dares not say , Papam posse revocare & tollere omnia Statuta Generalium Conciliorum , sed Aliqua tantum . Jo. de Turr●●r . Summae de Ecclesiâ , L. 3. c. 55. Et postea . Papa non potest revocare Decreta primorum quatuor Conciliorum , quia non sunt nisi Declarativa Articulorum Fidei . Ibid. c. 57. ad 2. disanul , or violate the true and Fundamental Decrees of a General Councel , though he may perhaps dispense in some Cases with some Decrees . By all which it appears , though somewhat may be done by the Bishops and Governors of the Church , to preserve the unity and certainty of Faith , and to keep the Church from renting , or for uniting it , when it is rent ; yet that in the ordinary way which the Church hath hitherto kept , some things there are , and upon great emergent Occasions may be , which can have no other help , than a lawful , free , and well composed General Councel . And when that cannot be had , the Church must pray that it may , and expect till it may , or else reform its self per partes , by National or Provincial Synods , ( as hath been , said * * §. 24. Nu. 1. before . ) And in the mean time , it little beseems A. C. or any Christian to check at the wisdom of † † And shall we think that Christ the wisest King hath not provided , & c. A. C. p. 60. Where I cannot but commend either A. C. his Modesty , that he doth not , or his Cunning , that he will not go so far as some have done before him ; though in these words [ Shall we think , &c. ] he goes too far . Non videretur Dominus discretus fuisse ( ut cum reverentiâ ejus ●oquar ) nisi unicum post se talem Vicarium reliquisset , qui haec omnia potest . Fuit autem ejus Vicarius Petrus . Et idem dicendum est de Successoribus Petri , cum eadém absurdit as sequèretur , si post mortem Petri , Humanam Naturam à se creatam sine regimine Unius Personae reliquisset . Extravagant . Com. Tit. de Majoritate & Obedientiâ c. Unam Sanctam . In addition . D. P. Bertrandi Edit. Paris . 1585. Christ , if he have not taken the way they think fitting to settle Church-Differences . Or if for the Churches Sin , or Tryal , the way of Composing them be left more uncertain than they would have it , that they which are approved may be known , 1 Cor. 11. 19. But the Jesuite had told me before , that a General Councel had adjudged these things already . For so he says .

I told him ▪ that a General Counee● ▪ to wit of Trent , had already Judged , not the Roman Church , but the Protestants to ●●l● Errours . That ( saith the B. ) was not a Lawful Councel .

§ . 27 Num. 1 It is true , that you replyed for the Councel of Trent . And my Answer was , not onely , That the Councel was not Legal , in the necessary Conditions to be observed in a General Councel , but also , That it was no General Councel : which again you are content to omit . Consider it well . First , is that Councel Legal , the Abettors whereof maintain publikely ▪ That it is lawful for them to conclude any Controversie , and shake it be deside , and so in your Judgement Fundamental , though it have not , I do not say now , the Written Word of God for Warrant ▪ either in express Letter , or necessary Sense and deduction ( as all unerring Councels have had , and as all must have that will not e●●e ) but not so much as † † Test●●●nio 〈◊〉 Stapl. ●otest . Cont. 4. ● . ● . A●● . 3. Probable Testimony from it , nay quite extra , without the Scripture ? Nay secondly , Is that Councel * * ●●●● ● . ● . 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ▪ that doubtless the Arri●●● also 〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that at Nice the Pope had 〈◊〉 to carry his Messages , and that 〈◊〉 of them in his place sa●e as President . Why but first ▪ 't is manifest , that Hosius was President at the Councel of Nice , and not the Bishop of Rome , either by himself or his Legates . And so much Athanasius himself , ( who was present , and surely understood ▪ the Councel of Nice , & who presided there , as well as A. C. ) tells us ● H●sius b●e est Princeps Synodor●● ▪ ( So belike He presided in other Councels as well as at Nice . ) Hic formulam Fidei in Nicaena Synodo concepit . And this the Arrians themselves confess to Constantius the Emperour , then seduced to be theirs . Ap●● S. Athanas. Epist. ad solitar ▪ ●ita●agentes . But then secondly , I do not except against the Popes sitting as President , either at Nice , or Trent . For that no might do , when called , or chosen to it , as well as any other Patriarch , if you consider no more but his 〈◊〉 as President . But at Nice the Cause was not his own , but Christs , against the Arrian : wher●●s a● 〈◊〉 , it was ●●erly his 〈◊〉 , his own Supremacy , and his Churches Corruptions , against the Protestants . And therefore 〈◊〉 not to sit President at the Trial of his own Cause , though in other Causes he might sit as will as 〈◊〉〈◊〉 ▪ And for that of Bellarmine , 〈◊〉 . de 〈◊〉 c. ●●● §. T●●tia c●●di●●● , namely ▪ That 't is ●●just 〈◊〉 ●●●● the Roman● Pr●lat●is Right ( jus suum ) in calling General Countels , and Presiding in them , in possession of which ●ight be hath 〈◊〉 for 1500 years ; That 's but a bold A●●ertion of the Cardina●● , by his ●●●ve . For he gives us no proof of ie , but his bare word . Whereas the very A●thentick Copies of the Counc●ls , published and princed by the Romanists themselves affirm clearly , they were called by Emperors ▪ not by the Pope ▪ And that the Pope did not preside in all of them . And I hope Bellar●●●● will not expect we should take his ●●●e word against the Councels . And most certain it is , that even as Hosius Presided the Councel 〈◊〉 Nice , and no way that , as the Popes Legate ▪ so also in the second General Councel ▪ which was the first of 〈…〉 , N●ctarius Bishop of Constanti●●ple Presided . Concil , Chal●ed ▪ Act. 6 ▪ p. 136. a●ud 〈…〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 , which was the first at Ephesus , S. C●●●● of Alexandria Presided . And though Pope C●l●sti●● was joyned with him , yet he sent none out of the West to that Councel , ●till many things were therein finished , as appears a●●● Act. Co●cil . Tom. 2. ● . 16 ▪ 17. In the fourth , at Chal●●● , the Legates of the Bishop of Rome ▪ had the Pr●●● place . In the fifth , 〈◊〉 Bishop of Constanti●●●● was President . In the sixth , and seventh , the Legates of the Pope were president ; yet so , as that almost all the duty of a Moderator or President was performed in the seventh by Tharas●us Bishop of Constantinople ; as appears manifestly in the Acts of that Councel . And since these seven are all the General Councels , which the Greeks and Latines joyntly acknowledge ; And that in these other Patriarchs and Bishops Presided , as o●t at lea●● as the Bishops of Rome ; What 's become of Bellarmine's Brag , That the Pope hath been possest of this Right of Presiding in General Councels for the space of 1500 years ? Legal , where the Pope , the Chief Person to be Reformed , shall sit President in it , and be Chief Judge in his own Cause ▪ against all Law , Divine , Natural , and Humane in a place not free , but in , or too near his own Dominion ? To which all were not called , that had Deliberative , or Consultative Voice ? In which none had Suffrage , but such as were sworn to the Pope and the Church of Rome , and professed Enemies to all that called for ●eformation , or a free Councel ? And the ‖ ‖ Leo 10. ●●ll . Jun. 8. 1520. Pope himself , to shew his Charity , had declared and pronounced the Appellants , Hereticks , before they were Condemned by the Councel . I hope an Assembly of Enemies are no Lawful Councel : and I think the Decrees of such a one , are omni jure nulla , and carry their Nullity with them through all Law .

Num. 2 Again , Is that Councel General , that hath none of the Eastern Churches Consent , nor presence there ? Are all the Greeks so become Non Ecclesia , no Church , that they have no interest in General Councels ? It numbers indeed among the Subscribers , six Greeks : They might be so by Nation , or by Title , purposely given them ; but dare you say they were actually Bishops of , and sent from the Greek Church to the Councel ? Or is it to be accounted a General Councel , that in many Sessions had scarce Ten Archbishops , or Forty , or Fifty Bishops present ? And for the West of Christendom , nearer home , it reckons one English , S. Assaph . But Cardinal Poole was there too : And English indeed he was by Birth , but not sent to that Councel by the King ▪ and Church of England , but as one of the Popes Legates ; And so we finde him in the five first Sessions of that Councel : And at the beginning of the Councel , he was not Bishop in the Church of England ; and after he was Archbishop of Canterbury , he never went over to the Councel . And can you prove , that S. Assaph went thither by Authority ? There were but few of other Nations , and , it may be , some of them reckoned with no more truth , than the Greeks . In all the Sessions under Paul the Third , but two French-men , and sometimes none ; as in the six under Julius the third ; when Henry II of France protested against that Councel . And in the end , it is well known , how all the French ( which were then a good part ) held off , till the Cardinal of Loraigne was got to Rome . As for the Spaniards , they laboured for many things upon good grounds , and were most unworthily over-born .

Num. 2 To all this A. C. hath nothing to say , but That it is not necessary A. C. p. 61. to the Lawfulness , and Generalness of a Councel , that all Bishops of the World should be actually present , subscribe , or consent , but that such Promulgation be made , as i● morally sufficient to give notice , that such a Councel is called , and that all may come , if they will ; and that a major part , at least , of those that are present , give assent to the Decrees . I will forget , that it was but p. 59. in which A. C. speaks of all Pastors , and those not onely A. C. p. 59. summoned , but gathered together . And I will easily grant him , that 't is not necessary that all Bishops in the Christian world be present , and subscribe : But sure 't is necessary to the Generalness of a Councel , that some be † † Ut aliqui ●ittantur , & adveniant , & conveniant , &c Bell. ● . 1. de Concil. c. 17. ● Quarta , ●● saltem . there , and authorized for all Particular Churches . And to the freedom of a Councel , that all that come , may come safe . And to the Lawfulness of a Councel , that all may come uningaged , and not fastened to a side , before they sit down to argue , or deliberate . Nor is such a Promulgation as A. C. mentions , sufficient , but onely in case of Contumacy , and that where they which are called , and refuse to come , have no just Cause for their not coming , as too many had in the Case of Trent . And were such a Promulgation sufficient for the Generalness of a Councel ; yet for the Freedom and the Lawfulness of it , it were not .

So ( said I ) would Arrians say of the Councel of Nice . The Bishop would not admit the Case to be like .

§ . 28 So indeed you said . And not you alone : It is the Common Objection made against all that admit not every latter Councel , as fully as that Councel of Nice , famous through all the Christian world . In the mean time , nor you nor they consider , that the Case is not alike , as I then told you . If the Case be alike in all , why do not you admit that which was held at Ariminum , and the second of Ephesus , as well as Nice ? If you say , ( as yours do ) It was because the Pope approved them not ; That 's a true Cause , but not adequate , or full . For it was , because the Whole Church refused them ; * * §. 26. Nu. 1. with whom the Romane Prelate ( standing then entire in the Faith ) agreed , and so ( for his Patriarchate ) refused those Councels . But suppose it true , that these Synods were not admitted , because the Pope refused them ; yet this ground is gained , That the Case is not alike for mens Assent to all Councels . And if you look to have this granted , That the Pope must confirm , or the Councel's not lawful ; we have far more reason to look , that this be not denied , That Scripture must not be departed from , in † † Here A. C. tells us , that the Arrians thought so of the Councel of Nice , p. 61. Namely , that they departed from Letter , and Sense of Scripture . They said so indeed . But the Testimony of the whole Church , both then , and since , went with the Councel against the Arrian . So is it not here against the Protestant for Trent . For they offer to be tried by that very Councel of Nice , and all the Ancient Councels and Fathers of the Church , within the first four hundred years , and somewhat farther . Letter , or necessary sense , or the Councel is not lawful . For the Co●sent and Confirmation of Scripture is of far greater Authority to make the Councel Authentical , and the Decisions of it de side , than any Confirmation of the Pope can be . Now of these two , the Councel of Nice , we are sure , had the first , the Rule of Scripture ; and you say it had the second , the Pope's Confirmation . The Councel of Trent , we are able to prove , had not the first ; and so we have no reason to respect the second . And to what end do your Learned men maintain that a Councel may make a Conclusion de fide , though it be simply * * So Stapleton often , but the Fathers quite otherwise . Que ●xtra Evangelium sunt , non desendam . ●Hilar . L. 2. ad Cohst . ab extra , out of all bound of Scripture ; but out of a Jealousie at least , that this of Trent , and some others , have in their Determinations left both Letter , and Sense of Scripture ? Shew this against the Councel of Nice , and I will grant so much of the Case to be like . But what will you say , if † † Literarum divinitùs inspiratarum testimoniis . L. 2. in Syn. Nic. Tom. 1. per Nicolinum . Constantine required , That things thus brought into Question , should be answered , and solved by Testimony out of Scripture ? And the Bishops of the Nicene Councel never refused that Rule . And what will you say , if they profess they depart not from it , * * Ib in Osi● sententiâ . p. 517. Parati ex S. Spiritus arbitrio per plurima Divinarum Scripturarum testimonia demonstrare hac ita se habere . but are ready by many Testimontes of divine Scripture to demonstrate their Faith ? Is the Case then alike betwixt it , and Trent ? Surely no. But you say that I pretended something else , for my not admitting the Case to be alike .

Pretending that the Pope made Bishops of purpose , for his side . But this the Bishop proved not .

§ . 29 Num. 11 No : Nor had I reason to take on me to prove what I said not . I know it will be expected I should prove what I say . And it is hard to prove the purpose of the ▪ Pope's Heart . For if it be proved that he made Bishops at that time ; that some of them were Titular onely , and had no Livelihood to subsist , but out of his Purse ( and so must hang their Judgement at the strings of it ; ) that some of these thus made were sent to the Councel ; and sure not without their Errand : yet if the Pope will say , he neither made , nor sent them to over-rule the Holy Ghost at that Meeting , or of purpose for his side , ( as no question but it will be said ) who can prove it , that is not a Surveyor of the heart ? But though the Pope's heart cannot be seen , yet if these , and the like Presumptions be true , it is a great signe that Trent was too corrupt , and factious a Meeting for the Holy Ghost to be at . And sure the Case in this , not alike at Nice .

Num. 2 That which I said was , That Trent could be no Indifferent Councel to the Church , the Pope having made himself a strong Party in it . And this I proved , though you be here not onely content to omit , but plainly to deny the Proof . For I proved it thus , ( and you ‖ ‖ Here A. C. is angry , and says : This was no Proof , nor worthy of any Answer , or looking into the Book for it . First , because 't is onely a Surmise of Adversaries , who are apt to interpret to the worst . Secondly , because there might be more Italian Bishops there , as bring ●earer , yet without any factious Combination with the Pope : As in the Greek Councels more Grecians were present . A. C. p. 62. No proof , or a weak one . Let the Reader Judge that . But why 〈◊〉 Proof ? Because a Surmise of Adversaries . Is that a Surmise of Adversaries , that is taken out of the Councel it self ? Is that Councel then become Regaum divisum , and apt to interpret the worst of it self ? Yea but there were more Italian Bishops , as being nearer . Most true . Nearer a great deal than the Gre●ian Bishops . But the Bishops of France and of some parts of Germany were almost as near as the Italians themselves . And why then came no more of These , that were near enough ? Well : A. C. may say what he will . But the Pope remembred well the Councels of Constance , and Bas●l , and thought it wisdom to make sure work at Trent . For in later times , ( for their own fears , no doubt ) the Bishops of Rome have been no great friends to General Councels , especially Free o●es : Multi suspicantur , quod haec dissim●laverit Romana Curia , & Concilia ●●●i neglexerit , ut possit ad sue voluntatis libitum plenius dominari , & Jura aliaru● Ecclesiarum liberius usurpare . Quod non asser● esse verum , sed quia bujusmodi laborat infamia , id●● , &c. Pet. de Aliaco , Car● Cam●ra●●nsis L. de Reformat . ●●●les . in ●asci● . rerum expe●end . sol . 204. A. answered not ) That there were more Italian Bishops there , then of all Christendom besides . More ? Yea more than double . And this I proved out of the Councel it self , which you had in your hand in Decimo sexto ; but had no great heart to look it . For , where the number of Prelates is expressed , that had Suffrage and Vote in that Councel , the Italians are set down to be 187. and all the rest make but 83. So that there were more Italian Bishops by 104 , than of all the rest of Christendom . Sure the Pope did not mean to be over-reached in this Councel . And whatsoever became of his Infallibility otherwise , he might this way be sure to be Infallible in whatsoever he would have Determined : And this , without all doubt , is all the Infallibility he hath . So I proved this sufficiently , I think . For if it were not to be sure of a side , give any satisfying Reason ; why such a potent Party of Italians , more than double to the whole Christian world , should be there ? Shew me the like for Nice , and I will give it , that the Case is alike between these two Councels .

Num. 3 Here Bellarmine comes in to help : But sure it will not help you , that he hath offered at as much against the Councel of Nice , as I have urged against that at Trent . For he tells us , † † In Concilio Nicaeno prim● ex Occidente solùm fu●unt duo Presbyteri missi ex Italiâ , unus Episcopus ex Galliâ , unus ex Hispaniâ , & unus ex Africâ . Bellarm. L. 1. de Concil. c. 17. § Antepenult. That in the Councel at Nice , there were as few Bishops of the West present , as were of the East at Trent , but five in all . Be it so : Yet this will not make the Case alike between the two Councels . First , because I press not the disparity in number onely ; but with it the Pope's carriage , to be sure of a Major part . For it lay upon the Pope to make sure work at Trent , both for himself , and his Church . But neither the Greek Church in general , nor any Patriarch of the East , had any private Interest to look to , in the Councel at Nice . Secondly , because I press not so much against the Councel of Trent , That there were so exceeding many Bishops of the West , compared with those of the East , ( for that must must needs be , when a Councel is held in the West ) but that there were so many more Italians , and Bishops obnoxious to the Popes power , than of all Germany , France , Spain , and all other Parts of the West besides . Thirdly , because both Bellarmine and A. C. seek to avoid the Dint of this Argument , by comparing the Western with the Eastern Bishops , and are content to say nothing about the Excessive number of Italians , to others of the West : That will receive a fuller Answer than any of the rest . For though very few Western Bishops were at the Councel of Nice , being so remote : yet at the same time Pope Sylvester held a Councel at Rome , in which He with 275 Bishops of the West confirmed the Nicene Creed ; * * Omnes qui ausi fuerint dissolvere ●esinitionem Sancti & Mag●i Concilii quod apud Ni●●am congregatum est , Anathematizamus . Concil. Rom. 3 sub Sylvestro . Apud Binium , p. 449. and Anathematized all those which should dare to dissolve the Definition of that Holy , and Great Councel . Now let Bellarmine , or A. C. or any else shew , That when the Councel of Trent sate , there was another Councel ( though never so privately in regard of their miserable Oppression ) which sate in Greece , or any where in the East , under any Patriarch or Christian Bishop , which did confirm the Canons of the Councel of Trent , and Anathematize them which admitted them not , and I will confess they speak home to the Comparison between the Councels , else a blinde man may see the difference , and 't is a vast one .

Num. 4 But here A. C. makes account he hath found a better Reply to this ; and now tells us , that neither French , nor Spanish , nor Schismatical A. C. p. 62. Greeks did agree with Protestants in those Points which were defined in that Councel , especially after it was confirmed by the Pope ; as appears by the Censure of Jeremias the Greek Patriarch . Who agreed with the Protestants in the Points defined by that Councel , ( as he speaks ) or rather ( to speak properly ) against the Points there defined ; I know not . And for ought A. C. knows , many might agree with them in heart , that in such a Councel durst not open themselves . And what knows A. C. how many might have been of their Opinion , in the main before the Councel ended , had they been admitted to a fair , and a free Dispute ? And it may be too , some Decrees would have been more favourable to them , had not the care of the Popes Interest made them sowrer . For else what mean these words , Especially after it was confirmed by the Pope ? As for Jeremias , 't is true , his Censure is in many things against the Protestants : But I finde not that that Censure of his is warranted by any Authority of the Greek Church ; Or that he gave the Protestants any hearing , before he passed his Censure . And at the most , it is but the Censure of a Schismatick , in A. C's own Judgement . And for his flourish which follows , That East and West would condemn Protestants for Hereticks ; I would he would forbear Prophesying , till both parts might meet in a free General Councel , that sought Christ more than themselves . But I finde the Jesuite hath not done with me yet , but addes :

In sine , the B. wished , That a Lawful General Councel were called to end Controversies . The persons present said , That the King was inclined thereunto , and that therefore we Catholikes might do well to concur .

§ . 30 And what say you to my Wish ? You pretend great love to the Truth , would you not have it found ? Can you , or any Christian be offended , that there should be a good end of Controversies ? Can you think of a better end , than by a General Councel ? And if you have a most Gracious King inclined unto it , ( as you say it was offered ) how can you acquit your selves , if you do not consent ? Now here A. C. marvels what A. C. p. 62● kinde of General Councel I would have , and what Rules I would have observed in it , which are morally like to be observed , and make an end of Controversies better then their Catholike General Councels . Truly I am not willing to leave A. C. unsatisfied in any thing . Nor have I any meaning to trouble the Church with any New Devisings of mine . Any General Councel shall satisfie me , ( and , I presume , all good Christians ) that is lawfully called , continued , and ended according to the same course , and under the same * * Ex iis Conciliis quae omnium consensu Generalia fuerunt , qualia sunt quatuor prima : Et ex consuetudine Ecclesiae colligimus quatuor Conditiones requiri , & sufficere . Bellar. 1. de Concil. c. 17. § 2. Conditions , which General Councels observed in the Primitive Church ; which I am sure were Councels General , and Catholike , what ever yours be . But I doubt that after all noise made about these Requisite Conditions , A. C. and his Fellows will be found as much , if not more defective in performance of the Conditions , than in the Conditions themselves . Well : the Jesuite goes on , for all this .

I asked the B. whether he thought a General Councel might erre ? He said it might .

§ 31 I presume you do not expect I should enter into the Proof of this Controversie , Whether a General Councel may erre in Determination , or not ? Your self brought no Proof that it cannot ; and till that be brought , my speech is good that it can : and yet I hope to be found no Infringer of any Power given by Christ to his Church . But it seems by that which follows , you did by this Question ( Can a General Councel erre ? ) but seek to win ground for your other , which follows .

If a General Councel may erre , what nearer are we then ( said I ) to unity , after a Councel hath determined ? Yes ( said he ) although it may erre ; yet we should be bound to hold with it , till another come to reverse it .

§ 32 Num. 1 Whether a General Councel may erre , or not , is a Question of great Consequence in the Church of Christ . To say it cannot erre , leaves the Church not onely without Remedy against an Errour once determined ; but also without sense that it may need a Remedy , and so without care to seek it ; which is the misery of the Church of Rome at this day . To say it can erre , seems to expose the members of the Church to an uncertainty and wavering in the Faith , to make unquiet Spirits , not onely to disrespect former Councels of the Church , but also to slight and contemn whatsoever it may now Determine ; into which Errour some Opposers of the Church of Rome have fallen . And upon this is grounded your Question , Wherein are we nearer to unity , if a Councel may erre ? But in relating my Answer to this , you are not so candid : for my words did not sound as yours seem to do , That we should hold with the Councel , erre , or not erre , till another came to reverse it . As if Grounds of Faith might vary at the Racket , and be cast of each side , as a cunning hand might lay them .

Num. 5 You forget again , omit at least ( and with what minde , you best know ) the Caution which I added . For I said , The Determination of a General Councel erring was to stand in force , and to have External Obedience at the least yeelded to it , till * * § 33. Consid. 5. Num. 1 , 2. And the Reason of this is , Because to have a General Councel deceived , is not impossible ; But altogether impossible it is , that Demonstrative Reason , or Testimony Divine , should deceive . Hook . L. 2. Eccl. Pol. § 7. Evidence of Scripture , or a Demonstration to the Contrary made the Errour appear ; and until thereupon † † In which Case Maldonat puts in the shrewdest Argument : Namely , that this way we should never have a certain end of Controversies . For to try whether any thing were Decreed according to the Word of God by one General Councel , we should need another Councel ; and then another to try that ; and so in infinitum . So our faith should never have where to settle and rest it self . Maldon . in S. Matth. 18 20. But to this I answer , That the Ancient Church took this way , as will afterward appear in S. Augustine . Next , there is no uncertainty at all : For no General Councel lawfully called , and so proceeding , can be questioned in another , unless it so fall out , that Evident Scripture , or a Demonstration appear against it . But either of these are so clear and manifest , that there need be no fear of proceeding in infinitum , and leaving the Faith in uncertainty , in necessaries to salvation . And in curious Speculations , it is no matter , whether there be certainty or no , with or without a Councel . § 33. Consid. 5. Num. 1. & 2. another Councel of equal Authority did reverse it . And indeed I might have returned upon you again : If a General Councel not Confirmed by the Pope may erre ( which you affirm ) to what end then a General Councel ? And you may answer , Yes : For although a General Councel may erre , yet the Pope , as Head of the Church , cannot . An excellent means of Unity , to have all in the Church as the Pope will have it , what ever Scripture say , or the Church think . And then I pray , to what end a General Councel ? Will his Holiness be so holy , as to confirm a General Councel , if it determine against him ? And as for ‖ ‖ Bellar. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 7. § 3. &c. Bellarmines Reasons why a General Councel should be useful , if not necessary , though the Pope be Infallible ; they are so weak in part , and in part so unworthy , that I am sorry any necessity of a bad Cause should force so Learned a man to make use of them .

Num. 3 Here A. C. tels me , The Caution mentioned , as omitted , makes my Answer worse then the Jesuite related it . And that in two A. C. p. 63 , 64. things . First , in that the Jesuite relates it thus : Although it may erre : but the Caution makes it , as if it did actually erre . Secondly , in that the Jesuite relates , That we are bound to hold it , till another come to reverse it ; that is , we not knowing whether it do erre or not , but onely that it may erre . But the Caution puts the Case so , as if the Determination of a General Councel actually erring were not ipso jure invalid , but must stand in force , and have external Obedience yeelded to it , till not onely moral Certainty , but Evidence of Scripture , or a Demonstration to the Contrary , make the errour appear ; And when it appears , we must yeeld our Obedience , till a Councel of equal Authority reverse it , which perhaps will not be found in an whole Age. So either the Jesuite relates this speech truly , or less disgracefully . And A. C. thinks , that upon better Judgement , I will not allow this Caution . Truly I shall not thank the Jesuite for any his kindness here . And for the Caution , I must and do acknowledge it mine , even upon advisement , and that whether it make my Answer worse , or better . And I think farther , that the Jesuite hath no great Cause to thank A. C. for this Defence of his Relation .

Num. 4 First then the Jesuite ( so says A. C. ) doth in his Relation make it but a supposition , That a General Councel may erre . But A. C. p. 63. the Caution expresses it as actually erring . True , But yet I hope this Expression makes no General Councel actually erre . And then it comes all to one , whether I suppose that such a Councel may erre , or that it do erre . And 't is fitter for clearing the Difficulties into which the Church falls in such a Case , to suppose ( and more then a supposition it is not ) a General Councel * * Synodum Generalem aliquoties errásse perce●i●●s . Wald. L. 2. de Doctri● . Fidei , Art. 2. c. 19. § 1. actually erring , then as only under a Possibility of Erring . For the Church hath much more to do to vindicate it self from such an Errour actually being , than from any the like Errour that might be .

Num. 5 Secondly , A. C. thinks , he hath got great advantage by the words of the Caution ; in that I say , A General Councel erring is A. C. p. 63. to stand in force , and have external Obedience , at least so far as it consists in silence , Patience , and forbearance yeelded to it , till Evidence of Scripture , or a Demonstration to the Contrary make the Error appear , and until thereupon another Councel of equal Authority did reverse it . Well! I say it again . But is there any one word of mine in the Caution , that speaks of our knowing of this Errour ? Surely not one ( that 's A. C's Addition . ) Now suppose a General Councel actually Erring in some Point of Divine Truth , I hope it will not follow that this Errour must be so gross , as that forthwith it must needs be known to private men . And doubtless till they know it , Obedience must be yeelded ; Nay when they know it ( if the Errour be not manifestly against Fundamental verity , in which case a General Councel cannot easily erre ) I would have A. C. and all wise men Consider , Whether External Obedience be not even then to be yeelded . For if Controversies arise in the Church , some end they must have , or they 'll tear all in sunder . And I am sure no wisdome can think that fit . Why then say a General Councel Erre , and an Erring Decree be ipso jure , by the very Law it self invalid ; I would have it wisely considered again , whether it be not fit to allow a General Councel that Honour and Priviledge , which all other Great Courts have . Namely , That there be a Declaration of the Invalidity of it's Decrees , as well as of the Laws of other Courts , before private men can take liberty to refuse Obedience . For till such a declaration , if the Councel stand not in force , A. C. sets up Private Spirits to control General Councels ; which is the thing he so often , and so much cryes out against in the Protestants . Therefore it may seem very fi● and necessary for the Peace of Christondome , that a General Councel thus erring should stand in force , till Evidence of Scripture , or a Demonstration make the Errour to appear , * * It is not long since A. C. compared Councels to Parliaments ; it was but p. 60. And I hope a Parliament and the Acts of it must stand in force , though something be mistaken in them , or found bur●sul , till another Parliament of equal Authority reverse it and them . For I presume you will not have any inferiour Authority to abrogate Acts of Parliament . as that another Councel of equal Authority reverse it . For as for Moral Certainty , that 's not strong enough in Points of Faith . ( which alone are spoken of here . ) And if another Councel of equal Authority cannot be gotten together in an Age , that is such an Inconvenience , as the Church must bear , when it happens . And far better is that inconvenience , than this other , † † § 33. Consid. 4. Num. 1. that any Authority less than a General Councel , should rescind the Decrees of it , unless it erre manifestly , and intolerably : Or that the whole Church upon peaceable , and just complaint of this Errour , neglect or refuse to call a Councel , and examine it . And there come in National or Provincial Councels to ‖ ‖ § 24. Num. ● . reform for themselves . But no way must lye open to private men to * * § 38. Nu. 15. Refuse obedience , till the Councel be heard , and weighed , as well as that which they say against it ; yet with † † Non est inferio●um judicare an Superiores legitimè procedant nec●e , nisi manifestiss●● è cons●ct intolerabilem Errorem committi . Bel. L. 2. de Concil. c. 8. § Alii dicunt Concilium . Nisi manifestè constet . Jacob. Almain in 3 sent. D. 24. q. unic● , fine . Bellarmines Exception still : so the errour be not manifestly intolerable . Nor is it fit for Private men , in such great Cases as this , upon which the whole peace of Christendome depends , to argue thus : The Error appears , Therefore the Determination of the Councel is ipso ●ure invalid . But this is far the safer way ( I say still , when the Errour is neither Fundamental , nor in it self manifest ) to argue thus : The Determination is by equal Authority , and that secundùm jus , according to Law declared to be invalid ; Therefore the Errour apears . And it is a more humble and conscientious way ▪ for any private man to suffer a Councel to go before him , then for him to out-run the Councel . But weak and Ignorant mens out-running both God , and his Church , is as bold a fault now on all sides , as the daring of the Times hath made it Common . As for that which I have added concerning the Possibility of a General Councels erring , I shall go on with it , without asking any farther leave of A. C.

§ 33 For upon this Occasion I shall not hold it amiss a little more at large to Consider the Poynt of General Councels , How they may , or may not erre ; And a little to look into the Romane and Protestant Opinion concerning them , which is more agreeable to the Power and Rule which Christ hath left in his Church ; and which is most preservative of Peace established , or ablest to reduce perfect unity into the Church of Christ , when that poor Ship hath her ribs dashed in sunder by the waves of Contention . And this I will adventure to the World , but only in the Nature of a Consideration , and with submission to my Mother the Church of England , and the Mother of us all , the Universal Catholick Church of Christ ; As I do most humbly All whatsoever else is herein contained .

First then , I Consider , whether all the Power , that an Occumenical Consid. 1. Councel hath to Determine , and all the Assistance it hath , not to erre in that Determination , it hath it not all from the * * Si Ecclesia Universitati non est data ulla Authoritas , Ergo nequt Concilio Generali , quatenus Ecclesiam Universalem repraesentat . Bellarm. Lib. 2. de Concil. c. 16. § Quòd si Ecclesia . Catholike Universal Body of the Church , and Clergie in the Church , whose † † Concilium Generale Ecclesiam repraesentans . Ja. Almain . in 3 Sent. D. 24. Q. unied . Episcopi sunt Ecclesia repraesentativè , ut nostri loquuntur . Bellarm. Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. c. 14. § 3. Representative it is ? And it seems it hath . For the Government of the Church being not ‖ ‖ § 26. Num. 8. Monarchical , but as Christ is Head , this Principle is inviolable in Nature : Every Body Collective that represents , receives power and priviledges from the Body which is represented ; else à Representation might have force without the thing it represents ; which cannot be . So there is no Power in the Councel , no Assistance to it , but what is in , and to the Church . But yet then it may be Questioned , whether the Representing Body hath * * Omnis repraesentatio virtute minor est Re ipsâ , vel Veritate , cujus Repraesentatio est . Colligitur apertè ex Thom. 1. 2. q. 101. A. 2. ad 2. all the Power , Strength , and Priviledge , which the Represented hath ? And suppose it hath all the Legal power , yet it hath not all the Natural , either of strength , or wisdom , that the whole hath . Now because the Representative hath power from the Whole , and the Main Body can meet no other way ; therefore the Acts , Laws , and Decrees of the Representative , be it Ecclesiastical , or Civil , are Binding in their Strength . But they are not so certain , and free from Errour , as is that Wisdom which resides in the Whole . For in Assemblies meerly Civil , or Ecclesiastical , all the able and sufficient men cannot be in the Body that Represents ; And it is as possible , so many able † † Posset enim contingere quòd Congregati in Concilio Generali essent pauci & viles , tam in re , quàm in hominum reputatione , respectu illorum qui ad illud Concilium Generale mini●è convenissent , &c. Ockam . Dial. par. 3. lib. 3. c. 13. and sufficient men ( for some particular business ) may be left out , as that they which are in , may miss , or mis-apply that Reason , and Ground , upon which the Determination is principally to rest . Here , for want of a clear view of this ground , the Representative Body erres ; whereas the Represented , by vertue of those Members which saw and knew the ground , may hold the Principle inviolated .

Secondly , I Consider , That since it is thus in Nature , and in Consid. 2. Civil Bodies , if it be not so in Ecclesiastical too , some reason must be given why ; ‖ ‖ Ecclesia est unum Corpus mysticum per Similitudinem ad Naturale . Durand . 3. D. 14. Q. 2. N. 5. Biel. Lect. 23. in Can. Miss. For that Body also consists of men : Those men neither all equal in their perfections of Knowledge and Judgement , whether acquired by Industry , or rooted in Nature , or infused by God . Not all equal , nor any one of them perfect , and absolute , or freed from passion and humane infirmities . Nor doth their meeting together make them Infallible in all things , though the Act which is hammered out by many together , must in reason be perfecter , than that which is but the Childe of one mans sufficiency . If then a General Councel have no ground of Not erring from the Men , or the Meeting , either it must not be at all , or it must be by some assistance and power upon them , when they are so met together : And this , if it be less than the Assistance of the holy Ghost , it cannot make them secure against Errour .

Num. 1 Thirdly , I Consider , That the Assistance of the Holy Ghost Consid. 3. is without Errour ; That 's no Question ; and as little there is , That a Councel hath it . But the Doubt that troubles , is , Whether all the assistance of the Holy Ghost be afforded in such a High manner , as to cause all the Definitions of a Councel in matters Fundamental in the Faith , and in remote Deductions from it , to be alike Infallible ? Now the Romanists , to prove there is * * Omnem veritatem infallibiliter docendi , &c. Stapl. Relect. Praes. ad Lectorem . infallible assistance , produce some places of Scripture ; but no one of them infers , much less inforces an Infallibility . The places which Stapleton there rests upon , are these : a a S. Joh. 16. 1● I will send you the Spirit of Truth , which will lead you into all Truth . And , b b S. Joh. 14. 16 This Spirit shall abide with you for ever . And , c c S. Mat. 28. 20 Behold I am with you to the end of the world . To these , others adde : d d S. Mat. 16. 18 The founding of the Church upon the Rock , against which the gates of Hell shall not prevail . And , Christ's Prayer for S. Peter , e e S. Luk. 22. 32 That his Faith fail not . And Christ's Promise , That f f S. Mat. 18. 20. where two or three are gathered together in his Name , he will be in the midst of them . And that in the g g Acts 15. 28. Acts : It seemed good to the Holy Ghost , and to us .

Num. 2 For the first , which is , Leading into all truth , and that for ever . * * Prosp. de vocat . Gent. L. 1. c. 10. All , is not always universally taken in Scripture . Nor is it here simply for All Truth : For then a General Councel could no more erre in matter of Fact , than in matter of Faith ; in which yet † † Bellarm. 2. de Concil. c. 8. § Respondeo quidam ▪ Where he saith , ●bi Questio est de Facto , non de Jure &c. In ejusmodi Judicius Concilium errave posie non est dubium . your selves grant it may erre . But into All ‖ ‖ Dubium est a● illud docebit omnia , S. Joh. 14. 26. referendum sit ad illud , Quaecunque dixi vobis : quasi non aliud doctu●um Spiritum Sanctum dicat , quàm quod ipse ante● docuisset , non repug●abo , si quis it● velit interpretari , &c. Maldonat . in S. Joh. 14. Truth , is a limited all : Into all Truth absolutely necessary to Salvation : And this , when they suffer themselves to be led by the Blessed Spirit , by the Word of God . And all Truth which Christ had before ( at least fundamentally ) delivered unto them : h h S. Joh. 16. 14 He shall receive of mine , and shew it unto you . And again , i i S. Joh. 14. 26 He shall teach you all things , and bring all things to your remembrance , which I have told you . And for this necessary Truth too , the Apostles received this Promise , not for themselves , and a Councel , but for themselves , and the * * Bellarm. 2. de Conc. c. 9. § Alteram . Assistentia Sp. Sancti non est propter Concil. sed ●nivers●m Ecclesiam . whole Catholike Church ; of which a Councel , be it never so General , is a very little part . Yea , and this very Assistance is not so absolute , not in that manner to the whole Church , as it was to the Apostles ; neither doth Christ in that place speak directly of a Councel , but of his Apostles Preaching , and Doctrine .

Num. 3 As for Christ's being with them unto the end of the world , the Fathers are so various , that in the sense of the Ancient Church , we may understand him present in * * S. Aug. Tr. 50. in S. Joh. Isidor . 1. Sent. cap. 14. Majestie , in † † S. Hilar. in Psal. 124. Justin , Martyr . Dial. cum Tryphone . Prosp. Epist. ad Demetriadem . Power , in Ayd and ‖ ‖ S. Hilar. in Psal. 124. Prosp. Lib. 2. de vocat . Gent. cap. 2. Leo Serm. 2. de Resurrect. Dom. cap. 3. Isidor . in Jos. c. 21. Assistance , against the Difficulties they should finde for Preaching Christ ; which is the native sense , as I take it . And this Promise was made to support their weakness . As for his Presence , in teaching by the Holy Ghost , * * S. Cyril . lib. 7. Dial. de Trin. Prosp. Epist. ad Demetriadem . few mention it ; and no one of them which doth , speaks of any Infallible Assistance , farther than the succeeding Church keeps to the Word of the Apostles , as the Apostles kept to the Guidance of the Spirit . Besides , the † † S. Hilar. in Psal. 124. S. Cyril L. 7. Dial. de T●in . S. Aug. 6. de Gen. ad ●it . c. 8. S. Leo Serm. 10. de Nat. Dom. c. 5. Isid. in Jos. c. 12. In all which places , Vobiscum is either interpreted cum suis , or Fidelibus , or Universâ Ecclesiâ . Fathers refer their Speech to the Church Universal , not to any Councel , or Representative Body . And ‖ ‖ Hoc colligitur , sed quaeritur non quid colligitur , sed quid dicere voluit . Maldonat . in S. Mat. 28. Maldonate addes , That this His presence by teaching , is , or may be a Collection from the place , but is not the Intention of Christ .

Num. 4 For the Rock upon which the Church is founded , which is the next Place , we dare not lay any other Foundation , than * * 1 Cor. 3. 11. Christ : Christ laid his † † Ephes. 2. 20. Apostles , no question , but upon Himself . With these S. Peter was laid , no man questions , and in prime place of Order , ( would his claiming Successours be content with that ) as appears , and divers Fathers witness , by his particular designment , Tu es Petrus ; But yet the Rock even there spoken of , is not S. Peter's person , either onely , or properly , but the Faith which he professed . And to this , besides the Evidence , which is in Text , and Truth , the ‖ ‖ S. Ignat. Epist. ad Philadelph . Qui suam firmavit Ecclesiam super Petram , aedificatione spirituali . S. Hilar. l. 6. de Tria . Super hanc igitur Confessionis Petram Ecclesiae aedificatio est . Et paulò ●ost : Haec Fides Ecclesiae fundamentum est . S. Greg. Nyss. a● Trin. adversus Judaeos : Super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam ▪ super Confessionem videlice● Christi . S. Isid. Pelus . Epist. l. 1. Epist. 235. Ut hac ratione certam omnibus Confessionem traderet , quam ab ●o inspiratus Pernis tanquam Basin , ac Fundamentum jecit , super quod Dominus Ecclesiam suam extru●it . S. Cyril . Alexand. de Trin. l. 4 Petram opinor per agnominationem , aliud nihil quàm inconcussam & firmissimam Discipuli fidem vocavit , in quâ Ecclesia Christi it a fundata , & firmata esset , ut non laberetur , &c. P. ▪ Theodor. in Cant. Petram appellat fidei pietatem , veritatis professionem , &c. Et super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam . S. Greg. Epist. l. 3. Ep. 33. In vera fide persistite , & vitam vestram in Petram Ecclesiae , hoc est , in Confessione B Petri Apostolorum Principis solidate . Theophylact . in Matth. 16. Super cum aedificavit Ecclesiam , quia enim confessus erat , &c. quòd haec Confessio fundamentum erit , &c. S. Aug. in 1 Epist. S. Johan . tract . 10. Quid est , Super hanc Petram ? Super hanc Fidem , super id quod dictum est , Tu es , &c. S. Bas. Seleuc. Orat. 25. Hanc Confessionem ●ùm nominâsset Christus Petram , Petrum nuncupat eum qui primùm illam est confessus , do●a●s illi hanc appellationem tanquam infign● , & monumentum hujus confessionis . Haec enim est reverâ Pietatis Petra , haec salutis basis , &c. S. Jacob. Liturg. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , p. 26. &c. And some which joyn the person of S. Peter , profess it is propter robur Confessionis . Justin. Mart. Dial. cum Tryph. S. Chrysost. Hom. 2. in Psal. 50. S. Ambros. L. 10. in S. Luc. c. 24. And S. Greg. gives it for a Rule , when Petra is read in the singular number , ( and so it is here ) Christus est , Christ is signified . Fathers come with very full consent . And this , That the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it , is not spoken of the Not erring of the Church principally , but of the * * Non deficit . S. Bern. Serm. 79. in Cant. And Bellarmine himself going to prove Ecclesiam non posse deficere , begins with this very place of Scripture , L. 3. de Eccles. c. 13. Not falling away of it from the Foundation . Now a Church may erre , and dangerously too , and yet not fall from the Foundation ; especially if that of † † L. 3. de Eccl. c. 14. § Quintò , si esset . Multa sunt de Fide , quae ▪ non sunt absolutè necessaria ad salutem . Bellarmine be true , That there are many things , even de fide , of the Faith , which yet are not necessary to Salvation . Besides , even here again , the Promise of this stable edification , is to the whole Church , not to a Councel , at least no further than a Councel builds , as a Church is built , that is , upon Christ .

The next Place is Christ's Prayer for S. Peter's Faith . The native NUM. ● . sense of which Place is , That Christ prayed , and obtained for S. Peter perseverance in the grace of God , against the strong temptation , which was to winnow him above the rest . But to conclude an Infallibility hence in the Pope , or in his Chair , or in the Romane Sea , or in a General Councel , though the Pope be President , I finde no one Ancient Father that dare adventure it . And * * Lib. 4. de Rom. Pont. cap. 3. Bellarmine himself , beside some Popes , in their own Cause ( and that in Epistles counterfeit , or falsly alledged ) hath not a Father to name for this sense of the Place , till he come down to Chrysologus , Theophylact , and S. Bernard : of which Chrysologus his speech is but a flash of Rhetorick ; and the other two are men of yesterday , compared with Antiquity , and lived when ( it was God's great grace , and Learned mens wonder ) the corruption of the time , had not made them corrupter than they are . And † † 2. 2ae , q. 2. A. 3. Probat enim ex his verbis , Fidem Ecclesiae Universalis non posse deficere . Thomas is resolute , That what is meant here beyond S. Peter's Person , is referred to the whole Church . And the Gloss upon the Canon-Law is more peremptory than he , even to the Denial , that it is ‖ ‖ Causa . 24. q. 1 c. A Recta . Non d● Papa , quia Papa potest errare . meant of the Pope . And if this Place warrant not the Popes Faith , where is the Infallibility of the Councel that in your Doctrine depends upon it ?

Num. 6 The next Place is Bellarmine's choice one , and his first ; and he says 't is a a a Testimonia propria sunt tria . Primum est Mat. 18. &c. Bellarm. L. 2. de Concil. c. 2. § 4. Sed contrà , Firmitas Conciliorum propriè non innititur his verbis . Stapl. Relect. Controvers. 6. q. 4. A. 4. ad 4. Locus hic non debet huc propriè accommodari . Valentia in Tho. Tom. 3. Disput. 1. R. 1. Punctò 7. § 45. proper place for Proof of the Infallibility of General Councels . This Place is Christ's Promise : Where two or three are gathered together in my Name , there am I in the midst of them , b b S. Matth. 18. 19 , 20. S. Matth. 18. And he tells us , The strength of the Argument is not taken from these words alone , but as they are continued with the former ; and c c Additâ Argumentatione à Minori ad Majus , &c. Bellarm. L. 2. de Concil. c. 2. § 4. Et Stapl. Relect. Cont. 6. q. 3. A. 4. that the Argument is drawn à Minori ad Majus , from the less to the greater . Thus d d Si duo vel tres congregati in nomine meo obtinent semper quod petunt à Deo , &c. Bellarm. ibid. § 5. If two or three gathered together in my Name , do always obtain that which they ask at Gods hands , to wit , wisdom and knowledge of those things which are necessary for them : How much more shall all the Bishops gathered together ( in a Councel ) always obtain wisdom and knowledge to Judge those things , which belong to the direction of the whole Church ? I answer ; First , 't is most true , that here is little strength , in these words alone . For , though the Fathers make different interpretations of this place of Scripture , yet * * S. Chrys. Hom 61. in S. Mat. 18. Ubi duo vel tres pari spiritu & voluntate collecti sunt , &c. Theoph. in S. Mat. 18. S. Cyprian . L. 4. Epist. 4. S. Hilar. ●● S. Matth. 18. most of them agree in this , That this Place is to be understood of Consent in Prayer . And this is manifest enough in the Text it self . Secondly , I think there is as little strength in them by the Argument drawn à Minori ad Majus . And that I prove two ways . First , Because though that Argument hold in Natural , and Necessary things ; yet I doubt it holds not either in Voluntary , or Promised things , or things which depend upon their Institution . For he that promises the less , doth not hereby promise the greater ; and he which will do the less , will not always do the greater . Secondly , Because this Argument from the less to the greater , can never follow , but where , and so far as the thing upon which the Argument is founded , agrees to the less . For if it do not always agree to the less , it cannot Necessarily pass from thence to the greater . Now that upon which this Argument is grounded here , is Infallible hearing , and granting the Prayers of two or three met together in the Name of Christ . But this Infallibility is not always found in this Less Congregation , where two or three are gathered together . For they often meet , and pray , yet obtain not , because there are divers other Conditions necessarily required ( as S. Chrysostom † † Quomodo igitur à Patre cuncta non consequentur ? Quia multae sunt Causae non impetrandi , &c. S Chrysost. Hom. in S. Matth. 18. Et Bellarm. ipse . Si congregari in Nomine Christi sit Nota Ecclesi● , non erit quomodocunque congregari . Sic enim omnes Haereses , & Schismata congregantur in nomine Christi . Sed , &c. L. 4. de Notis Ecclesiae , c. 2. § Tertius non . observes ) to make the Prayers of a Congregation heard , beside their gathering together in the Name of Christ . And therefore it is not extended to a greater Congregation , or Councel , unless the same Conditions be still observed . Neither doth Christs Promise , Ero in Medio , I will be in the midst of them , infer , That they , the greater or the less , three or three hundred , have all , even ‖ ‖ Etsi Christus adsit in medio talium , non adest tamen ad omnem effectum , aut ad hunc qui est Judicare de fide . Stapl. Relect. Controv. 6. q. 3. A. 4. Sed nec illi semper ad Deum respiciunt qui in medio eorum est . Nec Deus sic adest ●is qui respiciunt ad Ipsum , ut omnem veritatem doceat in Instanti & omni tempore simul , &c. Junius in Bellar. L. 2. de Concil. c. 2. necessary things infallibly granted unto them , as oft as they ask , if . they ask not as well as they ought , as what they ought . And yet most true it is , that where more or fewer are gathered together in the Name of Christ , there is he in the midst of them ; but to assist , and to grant whatsoever he shall finde fit for them , not Infallibly whatsoever they shall think fit to ask for themselves . And therefore S. Cyprian , though he use this very Argument à Minori ad Majus , from the less to the greater , yet he presumes not to extend it as Bellarmine doth , to the obtaining of Infallibility ; but onely useth it in the General way , in which there neither is , nor can be doubt of the truth of it . Thus : * * Si duo Unanimes tantum possunt ; Quid , si Unanimitas apud omnes esset ? S. Cypr. ● . 4. Epist. 4. If two that are of one minde to God-ward , can do so much ; what might be done , if there were Unanimity among all Christians ? Undoubtedly more , but not All what soever they should ask , unless all other Requisites were present . Thirdly , in this their own * * Non ad Infallibilem certitudinem a●●cujus Senten●i● , in quam plures in Nomine Christi consentiunt , locus hic ▪ Evangelii propriè accommodari debet , sed ad efficaciam consensionis plurium ad id impet●andum , quod unanimiter in Christi Nomine petunt , si id , quidem ad eorum salutem expediat . Sec●s enim non mod● ex illo loco probabitur , &c. Greg. de Valen. Tom. 2. in Thom. Disput. 1. Q. 1. Punct. 7. § 45. And although Stapleton approves this Argument à Minori ad Majus , yet withal he says , Firmitas Conciliorum illis Christi verbis propriè non innititur ; Quia nec Christus ibi de Conciliis Episcoporum loquitur , sed de quâvis Fidelium unanimi Congregation● . Nec etsi , &c. Stapl. Relect. Controv. 6. q. 6. A. 4. Great Champions disagree from Bellarmine , or he from them . For Gregory de Valentia and Stapleton tell us , That this place doth not belong properly to prove an Infallible Certainty of any sentence in which more agree in the Name of Christ : but to the efficacie of Consent for obtaining that which more shall pray for in the Name of Christ , if at least that be for their souls health . For else you may prove out of this Place , That not onely the Definition of a General Councel ; but even of a Provincial , nay of two or three Bishops gathered together is valid , and that without the Popes Assent .

Num. 7 The last Place mentioned for the Infallibility of General Act. 15. 28. Councels is that , Acts 15. where the Apostles say of themselves , and the Councel held by them : It seems good to the Holy Ghost , and to us . And They might well say it : For They had Infallibly the Assistance of the Holy Ghost , and They kept close to his Direction . But I do not finde , that any General Councel since , though they did implore ( as they ought ) the Assistance of that Blessed Spirit , did ever take upon them to say , in terminis , in express terms , of their Definitions : Visum est Spiritui Sancto , & Nobis ; It seemed good to the Holy Ghost , and to Us. Acknowledging even thereby ( as I conceive ) a great deal of Difference in the Certainty of those things , which a General Councel at after Determined in the Church ; and those which were setled by the Apostles , when They sate in Councel . But though I do not finde , That They used this speech punctually , and in terms ; yet the Fathers , when They met in Councel , were Confident , and spake it out , That They had Assistance from the Holy Ghost ; yet so , as that They neither took Themselves , nor the Councels They sate in , as Infallibly Guided by the Holy Ghost , as the Apostles were . And Valentia is very right : † † Quintum Argumentum , &c. Aut sunt ergo Arrogantes , quod putandum non est , Aut infallibilit●r definiunt . Respondet Valentia concedendo neutrum , Tom. 3. in Tho. Disp. 1. Q. 1. Punct. 7. § 45. That though the Councel say they are gathered together in the Holy Ghost , yet the Fathers are neither Arrogant , in using the speech , nor yet infallible for all that . And this is true , whether the Pope approve , or disapprove their Definitions ; Though Valentia will not admit that . The Pope must be ( with him ) infallible , what ever come of it . Now though this be but an Example , and include no Precept , yet both ‖ ‖ Firmitas eo●um nititur Exemplo primi Concilii . Stap. Rel. Cont. 6. q. 3. A. 4. ad 3. Stapleton and * * Et Bellarm. dicit locum hunc esse tertium ● Propri● . L. 2. de Concil. c. 2. § Tertius Locus . Bellarmine make this Place a proper Proof of the Infallibility of General Councels . And † † Conciliorum Decreta sunt Spiritus Sancti Oracula . Stapl. ibid. Sententia Orthodoxa prima . Stapleton says the Decrees of Councels are the very Oracles of the Holy Ghost ; which is little short of Blasphemy . And * * Si illud Concilium ex quo formam acceper●●● 〈◊〉〈◊〉 Concilia asserit Decreta su● esse Decreta 〈◊〉 . Sa●cti , certè idem a●●ere poss●nt caet●ra ligitima Concilia , &c. Bellar ibid. Bellarmine addes , that , Because all other Councels borrowed their form from this , therefore other lawful Councels may affirm also , That their Decrees are the Decrees of the Holy Ghost . Little considering therewhile , That it is one thing to borrow the Form , and another thing to borrow the Certainty , and the Infallibility of a Councel . For suppose that After-Councels did follow the Form of that first Councel exactly in all Circumstances , yet , I hope , no advised man will say , There is the like Infallibility in other Councels , where no man sate that was Inspired , as was in this , where all , that sate as Judges , were Inspired . Or if any Jesuite will be so bold as to say it , he had need bring very Good Proof for it ▪ and far better than any is brought yet . Now that all Councels are not so Infallible as was this of the Apostles , nor the Causes handled in them , as there they were , is manifest by † † Vide qudm prudentèr agunt , non praecipiat Sententiam , sed singula expendunt . Ia rebus 〈◊〉 ▪ Fid●i & quae conscientiam tangunt , non satis est , dicere , Volumus Mandamus . Vides igitur quomodo Conveniunt Apostoli , simplicitèr Conveniunt , nihil nisi Deum quaerunt , & aliorum salutem expetunt , &c. Quid igitur mirum si in hoc Concilio fu●rit Spiritus Sanctus ? &c. Nos aliter Convenimus , N●m●e cum mag●d pompâ , nosque ipsos q●aerimus ▪ atq●e nobis pollicemur nihil nobis non licere de Plenitudine Potestatis . Et quomodo Sp. Sanctus ejusmodi Concilia probare possit ? Ferus in Act. 15. 7. One of their own , who tells us plainly , That the Apostles in their Councel dealt very prudently , did not precipitate their Judgement , but weighed all things . For in Matters of Faith , and which touch the Conscience , it is not enough to say , Volumus & Mandamus , We Will and Command . And thus the Apostles met together in simplicity and singleness , seeking nothing but God , and the salvation of men . And what wonder if the Holy Ghost were present in such a Councel ? Nos alitèr . But we meet otherwise , in great pomp , and seek our selves , and promise our selves that we may do any thing out of the Plenitude of our Power . And how can the Holy Ghost allow of such Meetings ? And if not allow , or approve the Meetings , then certainly not concur to make every thing Infallible , that shall be concluded in them .

Num. 8 And for all the Places togehther , weigh them with indifferency , and either they speak of the Church ( including the Apostles ) as all of them do ; And then All grant the Uoyce of the Church is Gods Voyce , Divine and Infallible . Or else they are General unlimited , and applyable to private Assemblies as well as General Councels ; which none grant to be Infallible , but some mad Enthusiasts . Or else they are limited , not simply into All truth , but All necessary to salvation ; in which I shall easily grant a General Councel cannot erre , suffering it self to be led by this Spirit of Truth in the Scripture , and not taking upon it to lead both the Scripture and the Spirit . For Suppose these Places or any other , did promise Assistance even to Infallibility , yet they granted it not to every General Councel , but to the Catholick Body of the Church it self ; and if it be in the whole Church principally , then is it in a General Councel , but by Consequent ; as the Councel represents the Whole . And that which belongs to a thing by consequent , doth not otherwise , nor longer , belong unto it , then it consents and cleaves to that , upon which it is a consequent . And therefore a General Councel hath not this Assistance , but as it keeps to the whole Church , and Spouse of Christ , whose it is to hear His word , and determine by it . And therefore if a General Councel will go out of the Churches way , it may easily go without the Churches Truth .

Num. 1 Fourthly , I Consider , That All agree , That the Church in General Consid. 4. can never erre from the Faith necessary to Salvation : No Persecution , no Temptation , no ‖ ‖ S. Mat. 16. 28 Gates of Hell ( whatsoever is meant by them ) can ever so prevail against it . For all the Members of the Militant Church cannot erre , either in the whole Faith , or in any Article of it ; it is impossible . For if all might so erre , there could be no union between them , as Members , and Christ the Head : And no Union between Head and Members , no Body , and so no Church ; which cannot be . But there is not the like consent , That * * Ecclesia Universalis fidem hab●t indefectibilem , &c. Non quidem in Generali Synodo congregata , quam aliquoties errâsse percepimus , &c. Wald. Lib. 2. Doct. Fid. Ar. 2. ● . 19. § 1. § 38. Num. 4. General Councels cannot erre . And it seems strange to me , the Fathers having to do with so many Hereticks , and so many of them opposing Church-Authority , that in the Condemnation of those Hereticks , this Proposition , even in terms ( A General Councel cannot erre ) should not be found in any one of them , that I can yet see . Now suppose it were true , that no General Councel had erred in any matter of moment to this day ; which will not be found true : yet this would not have followed , that it is therefore infallible , and cannot erre . I have no time to descend into Particulars , therefore to the General still . S. Augustine † † Aug. ● . ● . de Bapt. Contra Donat. cap. 3. puts a Difference between the Rules of Scripture , and the Definitions of men . This Difference is : Praeponitur Scriptura , That the Scripture hath the Prerogative . That Prerogative is , That whatsoever is found written in Scripture , may neither be doubted , nor disputed , whether it be true , or right . But the Letters of Bishops may not onely be disputed , but corrected by Bishops that are more learned and wise than they , or by National Councels ; and National Councels by Plenary or General : And even ‖ ‖ Ipsáque plenaria saepè priora à posterioribus emendart . Plenary Councels themselves may be amended , the former by the later . It seems it was no News with S. Augustine , that a General Councel might erre , and therefore inferiour to the Scripture , which may neither be doubted , nor disputed , where it affirms . And if it be so with the Desinition of a Councel too ( as * * Vox Ecclesiae talis est , ut non de eâjudicemus recté●e ansecus docuerit . So. Stapl. Relect. c. 4. q. 1. A. 1. Stapleton would have it ) That that may neither be doubted , nor disputed ; Where is then the Scriptures Prerogative ?

Num. 2 I know there is much shifting about this Place ; but it cannot be wrastled off . † † De Regulis Morum & Disciplinâ . ●●lect . Cont. 6. q. 3. A. ● . Stapleton says first , That S. Augustine speaks of the Rules of Manners , and Discipline : And this is Bellarmine's last Shift . Both are out , and Bellarmine in a Contradiction . Bellarmine in a Contradiction : For first he tells us , General Councels cannot erre in † † L 2. de Conc. c. 2. Princip. Precepts of Manners ; and then , to turn off S. Augustine in this Place , he tells us , That if S. Augustine doth not speak of matter of Fact , but of Right , and of universal Questions of Right , then is he to be understood of * * Ibid. cap. 7. § Potest etiam . Precepts of Manners , not of Points of Faith : Where he hath first run himself upon a Contradiction ; and then we have gained this ground upon him , That either his Answer is nothing ; or else against his own state of the Question , A General Councel can erre in Precepts of Manners . So belike when Bellarmine is at a Shift , A General Councel can , and cannot erre in Precepts of Manners . And both are out : For the whole Dispute of S. Augustine , is against the Errour of S. Cyprian , followed by the Donatists , which was an Errour in Faith ; Namely , That true Baptism could not be given by Hereticks , and such as were out of the Church . And the Proof which Stapleton and Bellarmine draw out of the subsequent words ( † † Quando aliquo rerum experimento , quod clausum erat , ●peritur . When by any experiment of things , that which was shut , is opened ) is too weak : For experiment there is not of Fact ; nor are the words , Conclusum est , as if it were of a Rule of Discipline concluded , as Stapleton cites them ; but a farther experiment or proof of the Question in hand ; and pertaining to Faith which was then shut up , and as S. Augustine after speaks , ‖ ‖ Ibid. c. 4. Nebulis involuta . wrapped up in cloudy darkness .

Num. 3 Next , Stapleton * * Sensus est , quod Concilia posteriora emendant , id est , perfectiùs explicant fidem in semine antiqua Doctrinae latentem , &c. Stapl. Relect. Contr. 6. q. 3. A. 4. will have it , That if S. Augustine do speak of a Cause of Faith , then his meaning is , that later General Councels can mend , that is , explicate more perfectly that Faith which lay hid in the seed of Ancient Doctrine . He makes instance , That about the Divinity of Christ , the Councel of Ephesus explicated the first of Nice ; Chalcedon , both of them ; Constantinople , Chalcedon . And then concludes : † † Quâ in re nihil erroneum ul●um Concilium docuit , &c. In all which things , none of ( these ) Councels taught that which was erroneous . An excellent Conclusion : These Councels , and These , in this thing , taught no Errour , and were onely explained : Therefore no Councel can erre in any matter of Faith ; or , Therefore S. Augustine speaks not of an Emendation of Errour , but of an Explanation of Sense : whereas every eye sees , neither of these can follow .

Num. 4 Now that S. Augustine meant plainly , That even a Plenary Councel might erre , and that ‖ ‖ Saep● . often ( for that is his word ) and that in matter of Faith , and might and ought so to be amended in a later Councel , I think will thus appear . First , his word is , Emendari , to be amended ; which properly supposes for errour , and faultiness , not Explanation . And S. Augustine needed not to go to a word of such a * * Not used but either for Corrigere , or A●serre ; And so S. Augustine uses the word , ● . 20. contr. Faust. c. 21. And Bellarmine , though he interpret it in matter of Fact , yet equals the word with Correxit . 2 de Conc. c. 8. § Respond . Quaest. forced sense , nor sure would , especially in a Disputation against Adversaries . Next , S. Augustine's Dispute is against S. Cyprian and the Councel held at Carthage about Baptism by Hereticks ; in which Point , that National Councel erred ( as now all agree . ) And S. Augustine's Deduction goes on : Scripture cannot be other than right ; that is the Praerogative of it : but Bishops may , and be * * Reprehendi . Reprehended for it , if peradventure they † † Si quid in iis fortè à veritate deviatum est . erre from the Truth ; and that either by more Learned Bishops , or by Provincial Councels . Here Reprehension , and that for deviation from the Truth , is ( I hope ) Emendation properly , and not Explanation onely . Then Provincial Councels , they must ‖ ‖ Cedere . yeeld to General : And to yeeld , is not in case of Explanation onely . Then it follows , That even Plenary Councels themselves may be amended , the former by the later ; still retaining that which went before , If peradventure they erred , or made deviation from the Truth . And if this be not so , I would fain know , why in one and the same tenour of words , in one and the same continuing Argument and Deduction of S. Augustine , Reprehendi should be in proper sense , and à veritate deviatum in proper sense , and Cedere in proper sense ; and onely Emendari should not be proper , but stand for an Explanation ? If you say the Reason is , because the former words are applied to men , and National Councels , both which may erre ; but this last to General Councels , which cannot erre : This is most miserable Begging of the Principle , and thing in Question .

Num. 5 Again , S. Augustine concludes there , That the General Councel preceding may be amended by General Councels that follow , ‖ ‖ Quùm cognoscitur quod latebat . When that is known which lay hid before . Not as Stapleton would have it , Lay hid as in the seed of Ancient Doctrine onely , and so needed nothing but explanation ; but hid in some darkness or ambiguity , which led the former into errour , and mistaking , as appears : For S. Augustine would have this amendment made without Sacrilegious Pride , doubtless , of insulting upon the former Councel , that was to be amended ; and without swelling Arrogancy , sure , against the weakness in the former Councel ; and without contention of envie , which uses to accompany mans frailty , where his , or his friends Errour is to be amended by the later Councel ; and in holy Humility , in Catholike Peace , in Christian Charity , no question , that a Schism be not made to tear the Church ( as here the Donatists did ) while one Councel goes to reform the lapse of another , if any be . Now to what end should this Learned Father be so zealous in this work , this highest work , that I know in the Church , Reviewing and Surveying General Councels , to keep off Pride , and Arrogance , and Envie , and to keep all in Humility , Peace , and Charity ; if after all this noise , he thought later Councels might do nothing , but amend , that is , explain the former ?

Num. 6 That Shift , which * * Bellar. L. 2. de Concil. c. 7. § Respondeo primò sortè . Bellarmine addes to these two of Stapleton , is poorest of all , namely , That S. Augustine speaks of unlawful Councels ; and it is no question , but they may be amended , as the second Ephesine was at Chalcedon . For this Answer hath no Foundation but a peradventure : Nor durst Bellarmine rest upon it . And most manifest it is , that S. Augustine speaks of Councels in general , that they may erre , and be amended in Doctrine of Faith ; and in case they be not amended , that then they be condemned and rejected by the Church , as this of Ephesus , and divers others were . And as for that meer Trick , of the † † §. 26. Nu. 1. Popes Instruction , Approbation , or Confirmation , to preserve it from Errour , or ratifie it that it hath not erred , the most ancient Church knew it not . He had his Suffrage , as other great Patriarchs had , and his Vote was highly esteemed , not onely for his Place , but for worth too , as Popes were then . But that the Whole Councel depended upon him , and his Confirmation , was then unknown , and I verily think at this day not Believed , by the Wise and Learned of his Adherents .

Num. 1 Fifthly , it must be considered , If a General Councel may erre , Consid. 5. who shall judge it ? S. Augustine is at * * Ibid. priora à posterioribus , Nothing sure , that is less then a † † § 32. Num. 5 General Councel . Why , but this yet lays all open to uncertainties , and makes way for a Whirlwind of a Private Spirit , to ruffie the Church . No , neither of these . First , all is not open to uncertainties . For General Councels lawfully called , and ordered , and lawfully proceeding , are a Great and an Awful Representation , and cannot erre in matters of Faith , keeping themselves to God's Rule , and not attempting to make a New of their own ; and are with all submission to be observed by every Christian , where Scripture , or evident Demonstration come not against them . Nor doth it make way for the Whirlwind of a private Spirit : For private Spirits are too giddy to rest upon Scripture , and to heady and shallow to be acquainted with Demonstrative Arguments . And it were happy for the Church , if she might never be troubled with Private Spirits , till they brought such Arguments . I know this is hotly objected against ‖ ‖ Praefat. p. 29. Hooker , the * * Dial. dictus , Deus & Rex . Authour calls him a † † Cordatus Protestans . Wise Protestant , yet turns thus upon him . If a Councel must yeeld to a Demonstrative Proof , Who shall judge , whether the Argument that is brought , be a Demonstration , or not ? For every man , that will kick ▪ against the Church , will say , the Scripture he urges , is evident , and his Reason a Demonstration . And what is this , but to leave all to the wildness of a Private Spirit ? Can any ingenuous man read this Passage in Hooker , and dream of a Private Spirit ? For to the Question , Who shall judge ? Hooker answers , as if it had been then made ; ‖ ‖ Praefat. p. 29. And therefore A. C. is much to blame after all this , to talk of a pretext of seeming evident Scripture , or Demonstration ; as he doth , p. 59. An Argument necessary and Demonstrative , is such ( saith he ) as being proposed to any man , and understood , the minde cannot chuse but inwardly assent unto it . So , it is not enough to think or say it is Demonstrative . The Light then of a Demonstrative Argument , is the Evidence which it self hath in it self to all that understand it . Well ; but because all understand it not , If a Quarrel be made , Who shall decide it ? No Question , * * § 32. Num. 2 but a General Councel , not a Private Spirit : first , in the intent of the Authour ; for Hooker in all that Discourse makes the Sentence of the Councel † † Praefat. p. 28. binding : and therefore that is made Judge , not a Private Spirit . And then for the Judge of the Argument , it is as plain : For if it be evident to any man , then to so many Learned men as are in a Councel , doubtless : And if they cannot but assent , it is hard to think them so impious , that they will define against it . And if that which is thought evident to any man , be not evident to such a grave Assembly , it is probable 't is no Demonstration , and the producers of it , ought to rest , and not to trouble the Church .

Num. 2 Nor is this Hooker's alone , nor is it newly thought on by us . It is a Ground in Nature , which Grace doth ever set right , never undermine . And ‖ ‖ 2 de Bapt. cont. Don. cap. 4. S. Augustine hath it twice in one Chapter , That S. Cyprian , and that Councel at Carthage , would have presently yelded to any one that would * * ●●ni verum dicenti , & demonstra●ti . demonstrate Truth . Nay , it is a Rule with † † Cont. Fund . cap. 4. him , Consent of Nations , Authority confirmed by Miracles , and Antiquity , S. Peter's Chair , and Succession from it , Motives to keep him in the Catholike Church , must not hold him against Demonstration of Truth ; ‖ ‖ Quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur , utin dubium venire non possit , praeponenda est omnibus illis reous , quibus in Catholica teneor : Ita si aliquid apertissimum in Evangelio . Ib. c. 4. which if it be so clearly demonstrated , that it cannot come into doubt , it is to be preferred before all those things , by which a man is held in the Catholike Church . Therefore an evident Scripture , or Demonstration of Truth must take place every where ; but where these cannot be had , there must be Submission to Authority .

Num. 3 And doth not Bellarmine himself grant this ? For speaking of Councels , he delivers this Proposition , That Inferiours may not judge , whether their Superiours ( and that in a Councel ) do proceed lawfully , or not . But then having bethought himself , that Inferiours at all times , and in all Causes , are not to be cast off ; he addes this Exception , * * L. 2. de Concil. c. 8. § Alii dicunt Concilium . Nisi manifestissimè conste● intolerabilem Errorem committi . Unless it manifestly appear that an intolerable Errour be committed . So then , if such an Errour be , and be manifest , Inferiours may do their duty , and a Councel must yeeld ; unless you will accuse Bellarmine too of leaning to a Private Spirit : for neither doth he express who shall judge , whether the Errour be intolerable .

Num. 4 This will not down with you ; but the Definition of a General Councel is , and must be infallible . Your Fellows tell us , ( and you can affirm no more ) That the Voice of the Church determining in Councel , is not † † Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. Q. 3. Art. 1. Humane , but Divine . That is well ; Divine , then sure Infallible : yea ; but the Proposition sticks in the throat of them that would utter it . It is not Divine simply ▪ but in a * * Divina suo modo . Ibid. And so A. C. too , who hath opened his mouth very wide to prove the Succession of Pastors in the Church , to be of Divine and Infallible Authority ; yet in the close is forced to adde , Atleast in some sort , p. ●1 . manner Divine . Why but then sure not infallible , because it may speak loudest in that manner , in which it is not Divine . Nay more : The Church ( forsooth ) is an infallible Foundation of Faith † † In altiori genere , viz. in genere causae efficientis , atque 〈◊〉 aliqud ex par●e formalis . Ibid. Q. A. Ar. 3. in an higher kinde than the Scripture : For the Scripture is but a Foundation in Testimony , and Matter to be believed ; but the Church as the efficient Cause of Faith , and in some sort the very formal . Is not this Blasphemy ? Doth not this knock against all evidence of Truth , and his own Grounds , that says it ? Against all evidence of Truth : For in all Ages , all men that once admitted the Scripture to be the Word of God ( as all Christians do ) do with the same breath grant it most undoubted and infallible . But all men have not so judged of the Churches Definitions , though they have in greatest Obedience submitted to them . And against his own Grounds , that says it : For the Scripture is absolutely , and every way Divine ; the Churches Definition is but s●o modo , in a sort , or manner Divine . But that which is but in a sort , can never be a Foundation in an Higher Degree , than that which is absolute , and every way such : Therefore neither can the Definition of the Church be so Infallible as the Scripture ; much less , in altiori genere , in a higher kinde than the Scripture . But because , when all other things fail , you flie to this , That the Churches Definition in a General Councel , is by Inspiration , and so Divine and Infallible : my haste shall not carry me from a little Consideration of that too .

Num. 1 Sixthly then , If the Definition of a General Councel be infallible , Consid. 6. then the Infallibility of it is either in the Conclusion , and in the Means that prove it ; or in the Conclusion , not the Means ; or in the Means , not the Conclusion . But it is infallible in none of these . Not in the first , The Conclusion and the Means : For there are divers Deliberations in General Councels , where the Conclusion is Catholike ; but the Means by which they prove it , not infallible . Not in the second , The Conclusion , and not the Means : For the Conclusion must follow the nature of the Premisses or Principles out of which it is deduced ; therefore if those which the Councel uses be sometimes uncertain , as is proved before , the Conclusion cannot be Infallible . Not in the third , The Means , and not the Conclusion : For that cannot be true and necessary , if the Means be so . And this I am sure you will never grant ; because if you should , you must deny the Infallibility which you seek to establish .

Num. 2 To this ( for I confess the Argument is old , but can never be ▪ worn out , nor shifted off ) your great Master * * Re●ect . Cont. ● q. 2. a● Arg. 11 Stapleton ( who is miserably hamper'd in it , and indeed so are you all ) answers , That the Infallibility of a Councel is in the second Course , that is , † † And herein ▪ I must needs commend your Wisdom . For you have had many Popes so ignorant , grosly ignorant , as that they have been no way able to ●i●t , and examine the Means . And therefore you do most advisedly make them infallible in the Conclusion without the Means . § 39. Num 8. It is infallible in the Conclusion , though it be uncertain and fallible in the Means , and Proof of it . How comes this to pass ? It is a thing altogether unknown in Nature , and Art too , That fallible Principles can , either father , or mother , beget , or bring forth an infallible Conclusion .

Num. 3 Well , that is granted in Nature , and in all Argumentation , that causes Knowledge . But we shall have Reasons for it : ‖ ‖ Ibid. Not. 4. First , because the Church is discursive , and uses the Weights , and Moments of Reason in the Means ; but is Prophetical , and depends upon immediate Revelation from the Spirit of God , in delivering the Conclusion . It is but the making of this appear , and all Controversie is at an end . Well , I will not discourse here , To what end there is any use of Means , if the Conclusion be Prophetical ; which yet is justly urged : for no good cause can be assigned of it . If it be Prophetical in the Conclusion , ( I speak still of the present Church ● for that which included the Apostles , which had the Spirit of Prophecie , and immediate Revelation , was ever Prophetick in the Definition , but then that was Infallible in the Means too ) That since it delivers the Conclusion not according to Nature and Art , that is , out of Principles which can bear it , there must be some Supernatural Authority which must deliver this Truth : That ( say I ) must be the Scripture . For if you flie to immediate Revelation now , the Enthusiaesm must be yours . But the Scriptures , which are brought in the very Exposition of all the Primitive Church , neither say it , nor enforce it . Therefore Scripture warrants not your Prophecie in the Conclusion . And I know no other thing , that can warrant it . If you think the Tradition of the Church can , make the world beholding to you . Produce any Father of the Church that says : This is an Universal Tradition of the Church , That her Definitions in a General Councel are Prophetical , and by immediate Revelation . Produce any one Father that says it of his own Authority , that he thinks so : Nay , make it appear , that ever any Prophet , in that which he delivered from God , as infallible Truth , was ever discursive at all in the Means . Nay , make it but probable in the ordinary course of Prophecie , ( & I hope , you go no higher , nor will I offer at God's absolute Power ) That that which is discursive in the Means , can be Prophetick in the Conclusion , & you shall be my great Apollo for ever . In the mean time , I have learnt this from * * Prophete audi●ba●t à Des interiùs inspirante . Tho. 2. 2● . q. 5. A. 1. ad. 3. yours , That all Prophecy is by Vision , Inspiration , &c. & that no Vision admits discourse : That all Prophecie is an Illumination , not always present , but when the Word of the † † The Word of the Lord came unto me , is common in the Prophets . Lord came to them ; & that was not by discourse . And yet you * * Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 2. ● . 473. say again , That this Prophetick Infallibility of the Church is not gotten without study and Industry . You should do well to tell us too , why God would put his Church to study for the Spirit of Prophecie , which never any Particular Prophet was put unto . † † Propheticam Revelationem ●●●●o pacto ha●●●● posse , vel 〈◊〉 Naturae , vel ●●udio , contra Avi●e●nam , Alg●● a●em , Averr●em , &c. Fran. Picus , 2. Praenot . c. 4. And whosoever shall studie for it , shall not do it in vain , since Prophecie is a ‖ ‖ 1 Cor. 12. 10. Gift , and can never be an acquired Habit. And there is somewhat in it , that Bellarmine , in all his Dispute for the Authority of General Councels , dares not come at this Rock . † † L. 2. de Conc. c. 12. He prefers the Conclusion , and the Canon , before the Acts and the Deliberations of Councels ; and so do we : but I do not remember , that ever he speaks out , That the Conclusion is delivered by Prophecie , or Revelation . Sure he sounded the shore , and found danger here . He did sound it : For a little before he speak , plainly ( would his bad Cause let him be constant ) * * Concilia non habent , neque scribunt immediatas Revelationes , &c. sed ex verbo Dei per ratiocinationem deducunt Conclusiones . Bellar. Lib. 2. de Concil. cap. 12. S Dicuntur . Councels do deduce their Conclusions . What ? from Inspiration ? No : But out of the Word of God , and that per ratiocinationem , by Argumentation : Neither have they , nor do they write any immediate Revelations .

Num. 4 The second Reason , why † † Stapl. Ibid. 374. Stapleton will have it Prophetick in the Conclusion , is , Because that which is determined by the Church , is matter of Faith , not of Knowledge : And that therefore the Church proposing it to be believed , though it use Means , yet it stands not upon Art , or Means , or Argument , but the Revelation of the Holy Ghost : Else when we embrace the Conclusion proposed , it should not be an Assent of Faith , but an Habit of Knowledge . This for the first Part ( That the Church uses the Means , but follows them not ) is all one in substance with the former Reason . And for the later Part , That then our admitting the Decree of a Councel , would be no Assent of Faith , but an Habit of Knowledge ; what great inconvenience is there , if it be granted ? For I think it is undoubted Truth , That one , and the same Conclusion may be Faith to the Believer , that cannot prove , and Knowledge to the Learned , that can . And ‖ ‖ Cont. Fund . c. 4. S. Augustine , I am sure , in regard of one , and the same thing , even this , the very wisdom of the Church in her Doctrines , ascribes Understanding to one sort of men , and Belief to another weaker sort . And * * Tho. p. 1. q. 2. A. 2. ad 1. Nihil prohibet illud , quod secundùm se demonstrabile est , & scibile , ab aliquo accipi ut Credibilt , qui Demonstrationem non capit . Thomas goes with him .

Num. 5 Now for farther satisfaction , if not of you , yet of others , this may well be thought on . Man lost by sin in the Integrity of his Nature , and cannot have Light enough to see the way to Heaven , but by Grace . This Grace was first merited , after given by Christ : this Grace is first kindled by Faith ; by which , if we agree not to some Supernatural Principles , which no Reason can demonstrate simply , we can never see our way . But this Light , when it hath made Reason submit it self , clears the eye of Reason , it never puts it out . In which sense , it may be , is that of * * L. 3. Rationabi●is & ubique diffusa . Optatus , That the very Catholike Church it self is reasonable , as well as diffused every where . By which † † ut ipsa fide valentiores facti , quod cre 〈…〉 intelligere ●●ereamur , non jam hominibus , sed Deo intriasecùs mentem nostr●m 〈◊〉 & illuminante . S. Aug. cont. epist. Fundament . c. 14. Reason enlightned , ( which is stronger than Reason ) the Church in all Ages hath been able , either to convert , or convince , or at least ‖ ‖ Omnia generà Ingeniorum subdita Scripturae . S. Aug. L 22. cont. Faust. c●● . 96. stop the mouthes of Philosophers , and the great men of Reason , in the very Point of Faith , where it is at highest . To the present occasion then . The first , immediate , Fundamental Points of Faith , without which there is no Salvation , as they cannot be proved by Reason ; so neither need they be determined by any Councel , nor ever were they attempted , they are so plain set down in the Scripture . If about the sense , and true meaning of these , or necessary deduction out of these Prime Articles of Faith , General Councels determine any thing , as they have done in Nice , and the rest ; there is no inconvenience , that one and the same Canon of the Councel should be believed , as it reflects upon the Articles and Grounds indemonstrable ; and * * Almain . 3. D. 24. q. 1. & Tho. 2. 2. e. q 1. A. 5. C. Id quod est scitum ab uno homine etiam in flatu vi . c , est ab alio Creditum , qui hoc Demonstrare non novit . yet known to the Learned , by the Means and Proof , by which that Deduction is vouched , and made good . And again , the Conclusion of a Councel , suppose that in Nice , about the Consubstantiality of Christ with the Father , in it self considered , is indemonstrable by Reason ; There I believe , and assent in Faith : But the same Conclusion , ‖ ‖ Concilium Nicaenum deduxit Conclusionem ex Scripturis . Bellar . L. 2. de Concil. c. 12. § Sic etiam . if you give me ground of Scripture , and the Creed ( and somewhat must be supposed in all , whether Faith , or Knowledge ) is demonstrable by natural Reason , against any Arrian in the world . And if it be demonstrable , I may know it , and have an Habit of it . And what inconvenience in this ? For he weaker sort of Christians , which cannot deduce , when they have the Principle granted , they are to rest upon the Definition onely , and their Assent is meer Faith : yea , and the Learned too , where there is not a Demonstration evident to them , assent by Faith onely , and not by Knowledge . And what inconvenience in this ? Nay , the necessity of Nature is such , that these Principles once given , the understanding of man cannot rest , but it must be thus . And the † † S. Pet. 3. 15 Apostle would never have required a man to be able to give a Reason , and an account of the hope that is in him , if he might not be able to know his account , or have lawful interest to give it , when he knew it , without prejudicing his Faith by his Knowledge . And suppose exact Knowledge and meer Belief cannot stand together in the same Person , in regard of the same thing , by the same means ; yet that doth not make void this Truth . For where is that exact knowledge , or in whom , that must not meerly , in points of Faith , believe the Article , or ground upon which they rest ? But when that is once believed , it can demonstrate many things from it . And Definitions of Councels are not Principia Fidei , Principles of Faith , but Deductions from them .

Num. 1 And now because you ask , Wherein are we nearer to Unity Consid. 7. by a Councel , if a Councel may erre ? Besides the Answer given , I promised to consider which Opinion was most agreeable with the Church , which most able to preserve , or reduce Christian Peace : The Romane , That a Councel cannot erre ; or the Protestants , That it can . And this I propose not as a Rule , but leave the Christian world to consider of it , as I do .

Num. 2 First then I consider , Whether in those places of Scripture before mentioned , or any other , there be promised to the present Church an absolute Infallibility ? Or whether such an Infallibility will not serve the turn , as * * Relect. cont. 4. q. 2. Notab . 3. Exact● & Omni modâ Infallibilitate non indiget , sed satis est semel acceptis , &c. Stapleton , after much wrigling , is forced to acknowledge ? One not every way exact : because it is enough , if the Church do diligently insist upon that which was once received : and there is not need of so great certainty to open and explicate that which lies hid in the seed of Faith sown , and deduce from it ; as to seek out , and teach that which was altogether unknown . And if this be so , then sure the Church of the Apostles required guidance by a greater degree of Infallibility , than the present Church ; which yet , if it follow the Scripture , is Infallible enough , though it hath not the same degree of Certainty which the Apostles had , and the Scripture hath . Nor can I tell , what to make of Bellarmine , that in a whole Chapter disputes five Prerogatives , in Certainty of Truth , † † L. 2. de Conc. c 12. § ult. Cùm utraque sint infallibilis veritatis , ●què certa dici possunt . that the Scripture hath above a Councel ; and at last Concludes , That They may be said to be equally certain in Infallible Truth .

Num. 3 The next thing I Consider , is : Suppose this not Exact , but congruous Infallibility in the Church ; Is it not residing according to Power , and Right of Authority in the whole Church ( always understanding the Church in this place pro Communitate Praelatorum , for Church-Governours , which have Votes in Councels ) and in a General Councel , onely by Power ‖ ‖ Quòd si Ecclesiae Universitati non est data ulla Authoritas ; ergo nec Concilio Generali , quatenus Ecclisiam Universalem repraesentat . Bellar. L 2. de Concil. c. 16. § Ex his habemus . deputed with Mandate to determine ? The Places of Scripture , with Expositions of the Fathers upon them , make me apt to believe this . S. Peter ( saith * * Petrus Personam Ecclesiae Catholicae sustinet , & huic datae sunt Claves , quùm Petro datae . De Ag●n . Chr. c. 30. S. Augustine ) did not receive the Keys of the Church , but as sustaining the person of the Church . Now for this Particular , suppose the Key of Doctrine be to let in Truth , and shut out Errour ; and suppose the Key rightly used , Infallible in this : yet this Infallibility is primely in the Church Docent , in whose person ( not strictly in his own ) S. Peter received the Keys . But here Stapleton lays cross my way again , and would thrust me out of this Consideration . He † † R●l . Cont. 6. q. 3. A. 5. Sed propter Primatum quem gerebat Ecclesiae , id●bque etsi finalitèr Ecclesia accepit , tamen formalitèr Petrus accepit . grants , that S. Peter received these Keys indeed , and in the Person of the Church ; but ( saith he ) that was , because he was Primate of the Church ; And therefore the Church received the Keys finally , but S. Peter formally : that is ( if I mistake him not ) S. Peter for himself , and his Successors received the Keys in his own Right ; but to this end , to benefit the Church , of which he was made Pastor . But I keep on in my Consideration still . For the Church here is taken pro Communitate Praelatorum , for all the Prelates , that is , for the Church as 't is Docent , and Regent , as it Teaches , and Governs . For so onely it relates to a General Councel . And so * * Ad omnes dicitur , Pasce oves , &c. S. Aug. de Ag one Christian. c. 30. which cannot be spoken or meant of the Laitie . Et Bilson . Perpet . Gover. c. 8. fine . S. Augustine , and Stapleton himself , understand it in the places before alleadged . Now in this sense S. Peter received the Keys formally for himself and his Successours at Rome , but not for them onely ; but as he received them in the person of the whole Church Docent , so he received them also in their Right , as well as his own , and for them all . And in this sense S. Peter received the Keys in the person of the Church ( by Stapleton's good leave ) both Finally and Formally . For I would have it considered also , whether it be ever read in any Classick Author , That to receive a thing in the person of another , or sustaining the person of another , is onely meant Finally to receive it , that is , to his good , and not in his right . I should think , he that receives any thing in the person of another , receives it indeed to his good , and to his use , but in his right too : And that the formal right is not in the receiver onely , but in him or them also , whose person he sustains while he receives it . I 'll take one of Stapleton's † † Stapl. Relect. Cont. 3. q. 1. A. 1. ad 2. own Instances . A Consul or prime Senator in an Aristocratical Government ( such as the Churches is Ministerially under Christ ) receives a Priviledge from the Senate , and he receives it as Primarily , and as Formally for them , as for himself , and in the Senates right as well as his own , he being but a chief part , and they the whole . And this is S. Peter's Case in Relation to the whole Church Docent and Regent , saving that his Place and Power was Perpetual , and not Annual , as the Consul 's was . This Stumbling-block then is nothing , and in my Consideration it stands still , That the Church in this Notion by the hands of S. Peter received the Keys , and all Power signified by them ; and transmitted them to their Successours , who by the assistance of Gods Spirit may be able to use them , but still in and by the same hands , and perhaps to open and shut in some things Iufallibly , when the Pope , and a General Councel too ( forgetting both her , and her Rule , the Scripture ) are to seek how to turn these Keys in their Wards .

Num. 4 The third Particular , I Consider , is : Suppose in the whole Catholike Church Militant , an absolute Infallibility in the Prime Foundations of Faith , absolutely necessary to Salvation ; and that this Power of not erring so , is not * * Non omnia illa quae tradit Ecclesia sub Definitione Judiciali ( i. in Concilio ) sunt de Necessitate Salutis credenda , sed illa duntaxat quae sic tradit concurrente Universali totius Ecclesiae consensu , implicitè , vel explicitè , verè , vel interpretativè . Gerson . Tract . de Declaratione veritatum quae credendae sunt , &c. § 4. par. 1. p. 414. communicable to a General Councel , which represents it , but that the Councel is subject to errour : This supposition doth not onely preserve that which you desire in the Church , an Infallibility , but it † † Possit tamen contingere quòd quamvis Generale Concilium definiret aliquid contra Fidem , Ecclesia Dei non exponeretur periculo . Quia possit contingere quòd congregati in Concilio Generali essent pauci & viles tam in r● , quàm in hominum reputatione , respectu illorum qui ad illud Concilium Generale minimè convenissent . Et tunc illorum levitèr Error extirparet●● per multitudinem meliorum & sapientiorum & ●amosiorum illis . Quious etiam multitudo simplicium adhaereret magis , &c. Och. Dial. p. 3. l. 3. c. 13. meets with all inconveniences , which usually have done , and daily do perplex the Church . And here is still a Remedy for all things . For if Private Respects , if ‖ ‖ Many of these were potent at Ariminum , and S●l●ucia . Bandies in a Faction , if power , and favour of some parties , if weakness of them which have the managing , if any unfit mixture of State-Councels , if any departure from the Rule of the Word of God , if any thing else sway and wrench the Councel ; the Whole * * Determinationibus quae à Concilio , vel Pontifice Summo fiunt super iis dubitationibus , quae substantiam fidei concernunt , necessariò credendum est , dum Universalis Ecclesia non reclamet . Fr. P. Mirand . Theor. 8. Church , upon evidence found in express Scripture , or demonstration of this miscarriage , hath power to represent her self in another Body , or Councel , and to take order for what was amiss , either practised , or concluded . So here is a means without any infringing any lawful Authority of the Church , to preserve , or reduce Unity , and yet grant , as I did , and as the † † Artic. 21. Church of England doth , That a General Councel may erre . And this course the Church heretofore took ; for she did call , and represent her self in a new Councel , and define against the Heretical Conclusions of the former : as in the case at Ariminum , and the second of Ephesus , is evident : And in other Councels named by ‖ ‖ Bellar. L. 2. de Concil c. 16. § Tertiò , Concilium sine Papâ Bellarmine . Now the Church is never more cunningly abused , than when men out of this Truth , that she may erre , infer this Falshood , that she is not to be Obeyed . For it will never follow , She may Erre , Therefore She may not Govern . For he that says , Obey them which have the Rule over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , * * Heb. 13. 17. Heb. 13. commands Obedience , and expresly ascribes Rule to the Church . And that is not onely a Pastoral Power , to teach and direct , but a Praetorian also , to Control and Censure too , where Errours or Crimes are against Points Fundamental , or of great Consequence . Else S. Paul would not have given the Rule for Excommunication , 1 Cor. 5. Nor Christ himself have put the 1 Cor. 5. 5. man that will not hear and obey the Church into the place and condition of an Ethnick and a Publican , as he doth , S. Mat. 18. S. Mat 18. 17. And Solomon's Rule is general , and he hath it twice : My son , forsake not the teaching , or instruction of thy Mother . Now this Prov. 1. ●8 . is either spoken and meant of a natural Mother ; And her Authority Vid. S. Aug. 2. Conf. c. 3. and Prov. 6. 20. Ecclus 3. 3. Prov. 15. 20. over her Children is confirmed , Ecclus 3. And the fool will be upon him , that despiseth her , Prov. 15. Or 't is extended also to our Mystical and Spiritual Mother , the Church . And so the Geneva * * Forsake not thy Mothers instruction , that is , the Teaching of the Church , wherein the faithful are begotten by the incorruptible seed of Gods Word . Annot. in Prov. 1. 8. Note upon the Place expresses it . And I cannot but incline to this Opinion ; Because the Blessings which accompany this Obedience are so many and great , as that they are not like to be the fruits of Obedience to a Natural Mother onely , as Solomon expresses them all , Prov. 6. And in all this , here 's no Exception of Prov. 6. 22. of the Mothers erring . For Mater errans , an erring Mother loses neither the right nor the power of a Mother by her errour . And I marvel what Son should shew reverence or obedience , if no Mother , that hath erred , might exact it . 'T is true , the Son is not to follow his Mothers errour , or his Mother into errour . But 't is true too , 't is a grievous crime in a Son to cast off all obedience to his Mother , because at some time , or in some things , she hath fallen into errour . And howsoever , this Consideration meets with this Inconvenience , as well as the rest . For suppose ( as I said ) in the whole Catholike Militant Church , an absolute Infallibility in the Prime Foundations of Faith absolutely necessary to Salvation : And then , though the Mother-Church , Provincial , or National , may erre ; yet if the Grand-mother , the whole Universal Church cannot in these necessary things , all remains safe , and all occasions of Disobedience taken from the possibility of the Churches erring , are quite taken away . Nor is this Mother less to be valued by her Children , because in some smaller things Age had filled her face fuller of wrinkles . For where 't is said , that Christ makes to himself a Church without spot or wrinkle , Eph. 5. that is not understood Ephes. 5. 27. of the Church Militant , but of the Church Triumphant . † † In id progrediuntur ( Pelagiani ) ut dicant vitam Justorum in hoc seculo nullum omnino habere peccatum , & ex his Ecclesiam Christi in hac mortalitate perfici , ut sit omnino sine maculâ & rugâ . Quasi nou sit Christi Ecclesia , quae in toto terrarum orbe clamat ad Deum : Dimitte nobis debita nostra , &c. S. Aug. i de Haeresibus , Haer. 88. And to maintain the contrary , is a Branch of the spreading Heresie of Pelagianism . Nor is the Church on earth any freer from wrinkles in Doctrine , and Discipline , than she is from Spots in Life and Conversation .

Num. 5 The next thing I Consider , is : Suppose a General Councel take it self to be infallible in all things which are of Faith : If it prove not so , but that an Errour in the Faith be concluded ; the same Erring Opinion that makes it think it self Infallible , makes the Errour of it seem irrevocable . And when Truth , which lay hid , shall be brought to light , the Church ( who was lulled asleep by the opinion of Infallibility ) is left open to all mauner of Distractions , as it appears at this day . And that a Councel may erre , ( besides all other Instances , which are not few ) appears by that Errour of the Councel of ‖ ‖ Sess. 13. Constance . And one Instance is enough to overthrow a General , be it a Councel . * * S. Matth. 26. 1 Cor. 11. 23. Christ instituted the Sacrament of his Body and Bloud in both kindes . To break Christs Institution , is a Damnable Errour , and so confessed by † † Return of Untruths upon Mr. Jewel . Ar. a. Untruth 49. Stapleton . The Councel is bold , and defines peremptorily , That to Communicate in both kindes , is not necessary , with a Non obstante to the Institution of Christ . Consider now with me , Is this an Errour , or not ? * * 4. De Eucharist . c. 26. Bellarmine , and Stapleton , and you too , say 't is not ; because to receive under both kindes , is not by Divine Right . No ? No sure . For it was not Christs † † Bellar. Ibid. § Vicesimo proferunt . Precept , but his Example . Why , but I had thought , Christs Institution of a Sacrament had been more than his Example onely , and as binding for the Necessaries of a Sacrament , the Matter and Form , ‖ ‖ And now lately in a Catechism Printed at Paris , 1637. without the Authors name , 't is twice affirmed thus : The Institution of a Sacrament is of it self a Command . Conference 14. p. 244. And again , p. 260. Institution is a Precept . as a Precept : Therefore speak out , and deny it to be Christs Institution , or else grant with Stapleton , It is a damnable Errour to go against it . If you can prove , that Christs Institution is not as binding to us as a Precept , ( which you shall never be able ) take the Precept with it , * * S. Matth. 26 1 Cor. 11. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , in Liturg . S. Chrys. Drink ye All of this ; which though you shift as you can , yet you can never make it other than it is , A binding Precept . But Bellarmine hath yet one better Device than this , to save the Councel . He saith , It is a meer Calumny , and that the Councel hath no such thing : That the Non obstante hath no reference to Receiving under both kindes , but to the time of receiving it , after Supper ; in which the Councel saith , the Custome of the Church is to be observed , Non obstante , notwithstanding Christs Example . How foul Bellarmine is in this , must appear by the words of the Councel , which are these : † † Licet Christus post Caenam institucrit , & suis Discipulis administraverit sub utrâque specie Panis & Vini hoc venerabile Sacramentum , tamen hoc Non obstante , non d●bet confi●i post Coenam , nec recipt nisi à 〈◊〉 . [ Here Bellarmine stays , and goes no farther ; but the Councel goes on . ] R● similitèr quòd licèt in Primitiva Ecclestâ Sacramenta reciperentur sub utráque Speci● à fidelibus , tamen haec Consuetudo , ut à Laicis sub speci● Panis tantum susciptatur , habenda est pro Lege , quam non licet reprobare . Et asserere hanc esse illicitam , est Erroneum , Et per●in●cit●r asseren●es sunt arcen●i tanquam Haeretici . Sess. 13. Though Christ instituted this venerable Sacrament , and gave it his Disciples after Supper under both kindes of Bread and Wine ; yet , Non obstante , notwithstanding this , it ought not to be Consecrated after Supper , nor received but fasting . And likewise , that though in the Primitive Church this Sacrament was received by the faithful under both kindes ; yet this Custom , that it should be received by Lay-men onely under the kinde of Bread , is to be held for a Law , which may not be refused . And to say , this is an unlawful Custom of Receiving under one kinde , is erroneous ; and they which persist in saying so , are to be punished , and driven out as Hereticks . Now , where is here any slander of the Councel ? The words are plain , and the Non obstante must necessarily ( for ought I can yet see ) be referred to both Clauses in the words following , because both Clauses went before it , and hath as much force against Receiving under both kindes , as against Receiving after Supper . Yea , and the after-words of the Councel couple both together , in this Reference : for it follows , Et similiter , And so likewise , that though in the Primitive Church , &c. And a man by the Definition of this Councel , may be an Heretick , for standing to Christs Institution , in the very matter of the Sacrament : And the Churches Law for One kinde may not be refused , but Christs Institution under Both kindes may . And yet this Councel did not erre ; No ; take heed of it .

Num. 6 But your Opinion is more Unreasonable than this : for consider any Body Collective , be it more , or less Universal , whensoever it assembles it self , did it ever give more power to the Representing Body , of it , than binding power upon all particulars , and it self ? And did it ever give this power otherwise , than with this Reservation in Nature , That it would call again and reform , yea , and if need were , abrogate any Law , or Ordinance , upon just cause made evident , that this Representing Body , had failed in Trust , or Truth ? And this Power no Body Collective , Ecclesiastical or Civil , can put out of it self , or give away to a Parliament , or Councel , or call it what you will , that represents it . Nay , in my Consideration it holds strongest in the Church . For a Councel hath power to order , settle , and Define differences arisen concerning Faith . This Power the Councel hath not by any immediate Institution from Christ , but it was prudently taken up in the Church , from the * * Acts 15. In Novo Testamento Exemplum celebrationis Conciliorum , ab Apostolis babemus , &c. Joh. de Turrecremata Sum. de Eccles. Lib. 3. c. 2. Et firmitas Conciliorum nititur Exemplo primi Concilii . Stapl. Relect. Cont. 6. q. 3. A. 4. ad 3. Apostles Example . So that to hold Councels to this end , is apparent Apostolical Tradition written : but the Power , which Councels so held have , is from the whole Catholike Church , whose members they are , and the Churches power front God . And † † This is more reasonable a great deal than that of Bellarmine , 2. de Concil. c. 18. Pontificem non posse se subjicere sententiae coactivae Concilior●m . this Power the Church cannot farther give away to a General Councel , than that the Decrees of it shall binde all Particulars , and it self , but not binde the whole Church from calling again ; and in the After-calls , upon just Cause , to order , yea , and if need be , to abrogate former Acts. I say , upon just Cause . For if the Councel be lawfully called , and proceed orderly , and conclude according to the Rule , the Scripture , the whole Church cannot but approve the Councel , and then the Definitions of it , are Binding . And the Power of the Church hath no wrong in this , so long as no Power , but her own , may meddle , or offer to infringe any Definition of hers made in her Representative Body , a Lawful General Councel . And certain it is , no Power , but her own may do it . Nor doth this open any gap to private Spirits . For all Decisions in such a Councel , are Binding : And because the whole Church can meet no other way , the Councel shall remain the Supreme , External , Living , Temporary , Ecclesiastical Judge of all Controversies . Onely the Whole Church , and she alone hath power , when Scripture or Demonstration is found , and peaceably tendred to her , to represent her self again in a new Councel , and in it to order what was amiss .

Num. 7 Nay , your Opinion is yet more unreasonable : For you do not onely make the Definition of a General Councel , but the Sentence of the Pope infallible , nay more Infallible than it . * * Bellar. ● . 2. de Concil. c. 16 & 17. For any General Councel may erre with you , if the Pope confirm it not . So belike this Infallibility rests not in the Representative Body , the Councel , nor in the Whole Body , the Church , but in your Head of the Church , the Pope of Rome . Now I may ask you , to what end such a trouble for a General Councel ? Or wherein are we nearer to Unity , if the Pope confirm it not ? You answer , ( though not in the Conference , yet elsewhere ) That the Pope erres not , especially giving Sentence in a General Councel . And why especially ? Doth the Deliberation of a Councel help any thing to the Conclusion ? Surely not in your Opinion : For you hold the Conclusion Prophetical , the means fallible : and fallible Deliberations cannot advance to a Prophetick Conclusion . And just as the Councel is in Stapleton's Judgement , for the Definition and the Proofs ; so is the Pope , in the Judgement of * * Canus lib. 6. de Locis , cap. 8. § Et quidem in . Pontifices Summi in Conclusione errar● nequeunt , Rationes autem , &c. Melch. Canus , and them which followed him , Prophetical in the Conclusion . The Councel then is called but onely in effect to hear the Pope give his Sentence in more state . Else what means this of † † Relect. Co●t. 6. q. 3. Art. 5. & ibid. Quia ad co●p●●cendos importunos Haer●ticos Concilii Generalis Definitio illustrior est , &c. Et vulgo hominum magis satisfacit , &c. Stapleton : The Pope by a Councel joyned unto him , acquires no new Power , or Authority , or Certainty in Judging , no more than a Head is the wiser by joyning the Offices of the rest of the members to it , than it is without them ? Or this of ‖ ‖ 4. d● Rom. Pont. c. 3. § At contra , Nam . Ex quo apparet tota● firmitatem ▪ Conciliorum Legitimorum esse ● Pontific● , non partim à Pontifice , partim à Concilio . Bellarmine , That the firmness and infallibility of a General Councel is onely from the Pope , not partly from the Pope , and partly from the Councel ? So belike the Presence is necessary , not the Assistance : Which opinion is the most groundless , and worthless , that ever offered to take possession of the Christian Church . And I am perswaded , many Learned men among your selves scorn it at the very heart . And I avow it , I have heard some Learned and Judicious Romane Catholikes utterly condemn it . And well they may . For no man can affirm it , but he shall make himself a scorn to all the Learned men of Christendom , whose Judgements are not Captivated by Romane power . And for my own part , I am clear of * * Et ●●●rum est quod Adversarii non asserant cum Impeccabilem : Et credo assererent , nisi quotidiana summorum Pontificum Opera ad ●●●dendum Oppositum compell●rent . Almain . de Author . Eccles. c. 10. fi●● . Jacobus Almain's Opinion : And a great wonder it is to me , That they which affirm the Pope cannot erre , do not affirm likewise , that he cannot sin . And I verily believe they would be bold enough to affirm it , did not the daily Works of the Popes compel them to believe the Contrary . For very many of them have led lives quite Contrary to the Gospel of Christ . Nay , such lives , as no Epicurean Monster storied out to the world hath out-gone them in sensuality , or other gross Impiety , if their own Historians be true . Take your choice of * * Platina & Onuphrius is Vitis corum . John the thirteenth , about the year 966. Or of Sylvester the second , about the year 999. Or John the eighteenth , about the year 1003. Or Benedict the ninth , about the year 1033. Or Boniface the eighth , about the year 1294. Or Alexander the sixth , about the year 1492. And yet these , and their like , must be Infallible in their Dictates and Conclusions of Faith . Do your own believe it ? Surely no. For † † Non enim credo aliquem esse adeo impudentem P●p● Assentatorem , ut ei tribuere hoc velit , ut nec errare , nec in Interpretatione S. S. Literarum ha●●●ci●ari possit . Alphons . à Castro , Lib. 1. advers. Haeres . c. 4. And the Gloss confesses it plainly , in c. 24. q. ● . c. A recta ergo . Alphonsus à Castro tells us plainly , That he doth not believe ; that any man can be so gross and impudent a flatterer of the Pope , as to attribute this unto him , that he can neither erre , nor mistake in expounding the holy Scripture . This comes home ; And therefore it may well be thought it hath taken a shrewd Purge . For these words are Express in the Edition at Paris , 1534. But they are not to be found in that at Colen , 1539. Nor in that at Antwerp , 1556. Nor in that at Paris , 1571. ‖ ‖ Harding his Detection of Errors against Jewel , p. 64. Harding says indeed , Alphonsus left it out , of himself , in the following Editions . Well : First , Harding says this , but proves it not ; so I may chuse whether I will believe him , or no. Secondly , be it so , that he did ; that cannot help their Cause a whit . For say he did mislike the sharpness of the Phrase , or ought else in this speech , yet he alter'd not his Judgement of the thing . For in all these later Editions he speaks as home , if not more than in the first ; and says Expresly , * * Coelestinus erravit non solùm ut privata persona , sed ut Papa , &c. Alph. à Castro , L. 1. adv. Haeres . c. 4. ibid. That the Pope may erre , not onely as a private person , but as Pope . And in difficult Cases he addes , That the Pope ought to Consult Viros doctos , men of Learning . And this also was the Opinion of the Ancient Church of Christ concerning the Pope and his Infallibility . For thus Liberius , and he ● Pope himself , writes to Athanasius : Brother Athanasius , if you think in the presence of God , and Christ , as I do , I pray subscribe this Confession , which is thought to be the true Faith of the Holy , Catholike , and Apostolike Church , that we may be the more certain , that you think concerning the Faith , as We do . † † 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Liberius in Epist. ad 〈…〉 than●f . 〈…〉 than 〈…〉 . p. 〈◊〉 . ●●it . Parisiens . 1608. Et E●it . Paris . Latine-Gr . 1627. Ut ego etiam persuasus sim inhaesitantèr , That I also may be perswaded without all doubting of those things which you shall be pleased to Command me . Now I would fain know , if the Pope at that time were , or did think himself Infallble , how he should possibly be more certainly perswaded of any Truth belonging to the Faith by Athanasius his concurring in Judgement with him . For nothing can make Infallibility more certain than it is : At least , not the concurring judgement of that is Fallible , as S. Athanasius was . Beside , the Pope Complemented exceeding low , that would submit his unerring Judgement to be commanded by Athanasius , who , he well knew , could Erre . Again , in the Case of Easter , ( which made too great a noise in the Church of old ) * * Post Aegypti●●●●●pputationes & Alexandrin● Ecclesie definitionem , Epoisco●i quoque Romanae Ecclesiae per Literas plerique meam adhuc expectant sententiam , quid existimem de die Paschae . S ▪ Ambr. L. 10. Epist. 83. Very many men called for S. Ambrose his Judgement in that Point , even after the Definition of the Church of Alexandria , and the Bishop of Rome . And this I presume they would not have done , had they then conceived either the Pope , or his Church infallible . And thus it continued down to Lyra's time : For he says expresly , † † Ex hoc patet quòd Ecclesi● non consistit in hominibus ratione Potestatis vel Dignitatis Ecclesiasticae , vel Saecularis , quià multi Principes & Summi Pontifices , & alii inferiores inventi sunt Apostatasse à Fide , &c. Lyra in S. Matth. 16. 18. That many Popes as well as other Inferiours , have not onely erred , but even quite Apostatized from the Faith . And yet now nothing ▪ but Infallibility will serve their turns . And sometimes they have not onely taken upon them to be Infallible in Cathedrâ , in their Chair of Decision , but also to Prophesie Infallibly out of the Scripture . But Prophetical Scripture ( such as the Revelation is ) was too dangerous for men to meddle with , which would be careful of their Credit in not Erring . For it fell out in the time of Innocent the third , and Honorius the the third , ( as ‖ ‖ Rom. Pontifices ex Historid , &c. Quae mendacissima esse exitus probavit . Aventin . Annal. Bo●orum , L. 7. p. 529. Edit. Basil. 1580. Aventine tells us ) That the then Popes assured the world , that Destruction was at hand to Saracens , Turks , and Mahumetans ; which , the Event shewed , were notorious untruths . And 't is remarkable which happened anno 1179. For then in a Councel held at Baron . An. Rome , Pope Alexander the third Condemned Peter Lombard of 1179. N. 13. Hereste : And he lay under that Damnation for thirty and six years ▪ till Innocent the third restored him , and condemned his Accusers . Now Peter Lombard was then condemned for something which he had written about the humane Nature of our Saviour Christ . S● here was a great Mysterie of the Faith in hand ; something about the Incarnation . And the Pope was in Cathedrâ , and that in a Councel of three hundred Archbishops and Bishops . And in this Councel he condemned Peter Lombard , and , in him , his Opinion about the Incarnation : And therefore of necessity either Pope Alexander erred , and that in Cathedrâ , as Pope , in Condemning him ; or Pope Innocentius , in restoring him . The truth is , Pope Alexander had more of Alexander the Great , than of S. Peter in him . And being accustomed to Warlike Employments , he understood not that which Peter Lombard had written about this Mystery . And so He , and his Learned Assistants condemned him unjustly .

Num. 8 And whereas you profess * * Apud A. C. p. 68. after , That you hold nothing against your Conscience ; I must ever wonder much , how that can be true , since you hold this of the Pope's Infallibility , especially as being Prophetical in the Conclusion . If this be true , why do you not lay all your strength together , all of your whole Society , and make this one Proposition evident ? For all Controversies about matters of Faith are ended , and without any great trouble to the Christian World , if you can but make this one Proposition good , That the Pope is an Infallible Judge . Till then , this shame will follow you infallibly , and eternally , That you should make the Pope , a meer man , Principium Fidei , a Principle , or Author of Faith ; and make the mouth of him , whom you call Christs Vicar , sole Judge , both of Christ's Word , be it never so manifest , and of his Church , be she never so Learned , and careful of his Truth . And for Conclusion of this Point , I would fain know ( since this had been so plain , so easie a way , either to prevent all Divisions about the Faith , or to end all Controversies , did they arise ) why this brief , but most necessary Proposition , The Bishop of Rome cannot erre in his Judicial Determinations concerning the Faith , is not to be found either in letter or sense , in any Scripture , in any Councel , or in any Father of the Church , for the full space of a thousand years and more after Christ ? For had this Proposition been true , and then received in the Church , how weak were all the Primitive Fathers , to prescribe so many Rules and Cautions for avoidance of Heresie , as Tertullian , and Vincentius Lirinensis , and others do , and to endure such hard Conflicts , as they did , and with so many various Haereticks ; To see Christendom so rent , and torn by some distempered Councels , as that of Ariminum , the second of Ephesus , and others ; Nay , to see the whole world almost become Arrian , to the amazement of it self ; And yet all this time not so much as call in this Necessary Assistance of the Pope , and let the world know , That the Bishop of Rome was infallible ; that so in his Decision all Differences might cease ? For either the Fathers of the Church , Greek as well as Latine , knew this Proposition to be true , That the Pope cannot Erre Judicially in matters belonging to the Faith , or they knew it not . If you say they knew it not ; you charge them with a base , and unworthy Ignorance , no ways like to over-cloud such , and so many Learned men , in a Matter so Necessary , and of such infinite use to Christendom . If you say they knew it , and durst not deliver this Truth ; how can you charge them , which durst die for Christ , with such Cowardise towards his Church ? And if you say they knew it , and with-held it from the Church ; you lay a most unjust Load upon those Charitable souls , which loved Christ too well to imprison any Truth , but likely to make or keep peace in his Church Catholike over the world . But certainly , as no Divine of Worth did then dream of any such Infallibility in Him ; so is it a meer Dream , or worse , of those Modern Divines , who affirm it now * * The wilde Extent of the Popes Infallibility and Jurisdiction is a Mistake . These are the words of a Great Romane Catholike uttered to my self . But I will spare his Name , because he is living ; and I will not draw your Envie upon him . . And as † † ●uto quòd ipsi etiam rideant , quum hoc audiunt , & tamen nisi hoc dicant , quod erubescant si dicant , non habent omni●ò quod dicant . Sed quid ad nos ? No●●●● invidemus . ●egant nobis ●●o de Scripturis Sanctis , & ●●edimus . S. August . de ●nit . Eccles. cap. 17. S. Augustine sometimes spake of the Donatists , and their absurd limiting the whole Christian Church to Africa onely ; so may I truely say of the Romanists confining all Christianity to the Romane Doctrine , governed by the Pope's Infallibility : I verily perswade my self , That even the Jesuites themselves laugh at this . And yet unless they say this , which they cannot but blush while they say , they have nothing at all to say . But what 's this to us ? we envie no man . If the Pope's Decision be infallible , Legant , Let them read it to us out of the Holy Scripture , and we 'll believe it .

Num. 9 In the mean time , take this with you , That most certain it is , That the Pope hath no Infallibility to attend his Cathedral Judgement in things belonging to the Faith . For first , besides the silence of Impartial Antiquity , divers * * Papa non solùm Errore Personali , sed & Errore Judiciali potest errare in Materiâ Fidei . Almain . L. de Author . Eccles. c. 10. of your Own confess it , yea and prove it too , by sundry Instances .

Num. 10 Secondly , There is a great Question among the Learned , both School-men and Controversers , Whether the Pope coming to be an Heretick , may be Deposed ? And 't is Learnedly disputed by † † L. 2. de Rom. Pont. c. 30. Bellarmine . The Opinions are different . For the ‖ ‖ Si sit à Fide devius . Dist. 40 Can. Si Papa . Canon-Law says expresly , He may be judged and deposed by the Church in case of Heresie . * * Jure Divino Papatu privatus est , &c. Jo. de Turrecr . l. 4 Par. 2. c. 20. Et Bellar. L. 2. de Ro. Pont. c. 30. Joh. de Turrecremata is of Opinion , That the Pope is to be deposed by the Church so soon as he becomes an Heretick , though as yet not a manifest one ; Because he is already deprived by Divine Right . And recites another opinion , That the Pope cannot be deposed , though he fall into secret or manifest Heresie . † † Papa factus Haereticus non est ipso facto , vel jure Divino , vel humano depositus , sed deponendus . Cajet. Tract . de Author . Papae & Concilii , c. 20. Cajetan thinks that the Pope cannot be deposed , but for a manifest Heresie ; and that then he is not deposed ipso facto , but must be deposed by the Church . ‖ ‖ Papa Haereticus manifestus per se desinit esse Papa & Capat , &c. Et tum potest ab Ecclesiâ Judicari , & puniri . Bellar. L. 2. de Rom. Pont. c. 30. § Est ergo quinta . Bellarmine's own Opinion is , That if the Pope become a manifest Heretick , he presently ceases to be Pope and Head of the Church , and may then be Judged and punished by the Church . Bellarmine hath disputed this very Learnedly , and at large ; and I will not fill this Discourse with another mans Labours . The use I shall make of it , runs through all these Opinions , and through all alike . And truly the very Question it self supposes , that A Pope may be an Heretick . For if he cannot be an Heretick , why do they question , whether he can be Deposed for being One ? And if he can be one , then whether he can be Deposed by the Church , Before he be manifest , or not till after , or neither before nor after , or which way they will , it comes all to one for my purpose . For I question not here his Deposition for his Heresie , but his Heresie . And I hope none of these Learned men , nor any other , dare deny , but that if the Pope can be an Heretick , he can erre . For every Heresie is an Errour , and more . For 't is an Errour oft-times against the Errants knowledge , but ever with the pertinacie of his Will. Therefore out of all , even your own Grounds ; If the Pope can be an Heretick , he can erre grosly , he can erre wilfully . And he that can so Erre , cannot be Infallible in his Judgement private or publike . For if he can be an Heretick , he can , and doubtless will Judge for his Heresie , if the Church let him alone . And you your selves maintain his Deposition lawful , to prevent this . I verily believe * * Pighius L. 4. Ecclesiasticae Hierarchiae , c. 8 Alb. Pighius foresaw this Blow : And therefore he is of Opinion , That the Pope cannot become an Heretick at all . And though † † Communis Opinio est in contrarium . Ecll. L. 2. de Rom. Pont. c. 30. § 2. Bellarmine favour him so far , as to say his Opinion is probable ; yet he is so honest as to adde , that the Common opinion of Divines is against him . Nay , though ‖ ‖ Lib 4. de Rom. Pont. cap. 11. he Labour hard to excuse Pope Honorius the first from the Heresie of the Monothelites , and says , that Pope Adrian was deceived , who thought him one , yet * * Tamen non possumus negare , quin Adrianus cum Romano Concilio , imò & tota Sy●odus octava Generalis senserit , in causd Haeresis posse Rom. Pontificem judicari . Adde quod esset miserrima conditio Ecclesiae , si Lupum manifestè grassantem pro Pastore agnoscere cogevetur . Bel. L. 2. de . Ro. Pont. c. 30. §. 5. He confesses , That Pope Adrian the second , with the Councel then held at Rome , and the eighth General Synod , did think that the Pope might be Judged in the Cause of Heresie : And that the condition of the Church were most miserable , if it should be constrained to acknowledge a Wolf manifestly raging for her Shepherd . And here again I have a Question to ask , Whether you believe the eighth General Councel , or not ? If you believe it , then you see the Pope can erre , and so He not Infallible . If you believe it not , then in your Judgement that General Councel erres , and so that not Infallible .

Num. 11 Thirdly , It is altogether in vain , and to no use , that the Pope should be Infallible , and that according to your own Principles . Now God and Nature make nothing in vain . Therefore either the Pope is not Infallible , or at least God never made him so . That the Infallibility of the Pope ( had he any in him ) is altogether vain , and useless , is manifest . For if it be of any use , 't is for the setling of Truth and Peace in the Church , in all times of her Distraction . But neither the Church , nor any member of it , can make any use of the Popes Infallibility that way ; Therefore it is of no use or benefit at all . And this also is as manifest , as the rest . For before the Church , or any particular man , can make any use of this Infallibility , to settle him and his Conscience , he must either Know or Believe that the Pope is Infallible : But a man can neither Know nor Believe it . And first for Belief : For if the Church , or any Christian man can believe it , he must believe it either by Divine , or by Humane Faith . Divine Faith cannot be had of it : For ( as is before proved ) it hath no Ground in the written Word of God . Nay ( to follow you closer ) it was never delivered by any Tradition of the Catholike Church . And for Humane Faith , no Rational man can possibly believe ( having no Word of God to over-rule his Understanding ) that he which is Fallible in the Means , as * * Stapl. Relect. cont. 4. q. 2. N●tab . 4. your selves confess the Pope is , can possibly be Infallible in the Conclusion . And were it so , that a Rational man could have Humane Faith of this Infallibility ; yet that neither is , nor never can be sufficient to make the Pope , Infallible . No more than my strong Belief of another mans Honesty can make him an Honest man , if he be not so . Now secondly , for Knowledge ; and that is altogether impossible too , that either the Church , or any Member of the Church , should ever know that the Pope is Infallible . And this I shall make evident also out of your own Principles . For your * * Om●ia Sacramenta tribus perficiantur , &c. Decret. Eugenli 4. in Concil. Florent . Councel of Florence had told us , That three things are necessary to every Sacrament ; the Matter , the Form of the Sacrament , and the Intention of the Priest , which administers it , that he intends to do as the Church doth . Your † † Conc. Trid. Ses. 7. Can. 1. Councel of Trent confirms it for the Intention of the Priest . Upon this Ground ( be it Rock or Sand , it is all one ; for you make it Rock , and build upon it ) I shall raise this Battery against the Popes Infallibility . First , the Pope if he have any Infallibility at all , he hath it as he is Bishop of Rome , and S. Peter's Successour . ‖ ‖ Bellar. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. § Alterum Privilegium est . This is granted . Secondly , the Pope cannot be Bishop of Rome , but he must be in holy Orders first . And if any man be chosen that is not so , the Election is void ipso facto , propter errorem Personae , for the errour of the Person . * * Constantinut ex Laico Papa circa An. 767. ejectus Papatu . Et Steph. 3. qui successit , habito Concilio statuit , ne quis nisi per Gradus Ecclesiasticos ascendens Pontificatum occupare a●deret sub poenâ Anathematis . Decret. Dist. 79. c. Nullus . This also is granted . Thirdly , He that is to be made Pope , can never be in Holy Orders , but by receiving them from One that hath Power to Ordain . This is notoriously known ; So is it also , that with you Order is a Sacrament properly so called . And if so , then the Pope , when he did receive the Order of Deacon , or Priesthood at the hands of the Bishop , did also receive a Sacrament . Upon these Grounds I raise my Argument , thus . Neither the Church , nor any Member of the Church , can know that this Pope which now sits , or any other that hath been , or shall be , is Infallible . For he is not Infallible , unless he be Pope ; and he is not Pope , unless he be in Holy Orders ; And he cannot be so , unless he have received those Holy Orders , and that from one that had Power to Ordain ; And those Holy Orders in your Doctrine are a Sacrament ; And a Sacrament is not perfectly given , if he that Administers it have not intentionem faciendi quod facit Ecclesia , an intention to do that which the Church doth by Sacraments . Now who can possibly tell , that the Bishop which gave the Pope Orders , was first , a man qualified to give them ; and secondly , so devoutly set upon his Work , that he had , at the instant of giving them , an Intention and purpose to do therein as the Church doth ? Surely none but that Bishop himself . And his testimony of himself , and his own Act , such especially as , if faulty , he would be loth to Confess , can neither give Knowledge nor Belief sufficient , that the Pope , according to this Canon , is in Holy Orders . So upon the Whole matter , let the Romanists take which they will ( I will give them free Choice ) either this Canon of the Councel of Trent is false Divinity , and there is no such Intention necessary to the Essence and Being of a Sacrament : Or if it be true , it is impossible for any man to know , and for any advised man to Believe , That the Pope is Infallible in his Judicial Sentences in things belonging to the Faith . And so here again a General Councel , at least such a one , as that of Trent is , can Erre , or the Pope is not Infallible .

Num. 12 But this is an Argument ad Hominem , good against your Party onely , which maintain this Councel . But the plain Truth is , Both are Errours . For neither is the Bishop of Rome Infallible in his Judicials about the Faith : Nor is this Intention of either Bishop or Priest of Absolute Necessity to the Essence of a Sacrament ; so , as to make void the gracious Institution of Christ , in case by any Tentation the Priests Thoughts should wander from his Work , at the instant of using the Essentials of a Sacrament , or have in him an Actual Intention to scorn the Church . And you may remember , if you please , that a Neapolitan * * Minovensis Episcopus fuit . Bishop then present at Trent , disputed this Case very Learnedly , and made it most evident that this Opinion cannot be defended , but that it must open a way for any unworthy Priest to make infinite Nullities in Administration of the Sacraments . And his Arguments were of such strength , † † L. 2. Hist. Trident . p. 276 , 277. Leidae , An. 1622. ut caeteros Theologos dederint in stuporem ; as amazed the other Divines which were present . And concluded , That no Internal Intention was required in the Minister of a Sacrament , but that Intention which did appear Opere externo ; in the Work it self performed by him : And that if he had unworthily any wandring thoughts , nay more , any contrary Intention within him , yet it neither did , nor could hinder the blessed effect of any Sacrament . And most certain it is , if this be not true , besides all other Inconveniences , which are many , no man can secure himself upon any Doubt or trouble in his Conscience , that he hath truly and really been made partaker of any Sacrament whatsoever , No , not of Baptism ; and so by Consequence be left in doubt whether he be a Christian or no , even after he is Baptized . Whereas 't is most impossible , That Christ should so order his Sacraments , and so leave them to his Church , as that poor Believers in his Name , by any unworthiness of any of his Priests , should not be able to know whether they have received His Sacraments or not , even while they have received them . And yet for all this , such great lovers of Truth , and such careful Pastors over the Flock of Christ , were these Trent-Fathers , that they regarded none of this , but went on in the usual track , and made their Decree for the Internal Intention and purpose of the Priest , and that the Sacrament was invalid without it .

Num. 13 Nay , one Argument more there is , and from your own Grounds too , that makes it more than manifest , That the Pope can erre , not Personally onely , but Judicially also ; and so teach false Doctrine to the Church ; which * * Summus Pontifex quùm totam Ecclesiam docet , in his quae ad Fidem pertinent , null ocasu errare potest . Bellar. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. § 1. Bellarmine tells us No Pope hath done , or can do . And a Maxime it is with you , That a General Councel can erre , if it be confirmed by the Pope ; † † Concilia Generalia à Pontifice Confirmata errare non possunt Bellar. L. 2 de Concil. c. 2. § 1. But if it be confirmed , then it cannot erre . Where first , this is very improper Language . For I hope no Councel is confirmed , till it be finished . And when 't is finished , even before the Popes confirmation be put to it , either it hath Erred , or not Erred . If it have Erred , the Pope ought not to confirm it ; and if he do , 't is a void act . For no power can make Falshood Truth . If it have not Erred , then it was True before the Pope confirmed it . So his Confirmation addes nothing but his own Assent : Therefore his confirmation of a General Councel ( as you will needs call it ) is at the most Signum , non Causa ; a Signe , and that such as may fail , but no Cause of the Councels not Erring . But then secondly , if a General Councel Confirmed ( as you would have it ) by the Pope have Erred , and so can Erre ; then certainly the Pope can Erre Judicially . For he never gives a more solemn Sentence for Truth , than when he decrees any thing in a General Councel . Therefore if he have Erred , and can Erre there , then certainly he can Erre in his Definitive Sentence about the Faith , and is not Infallible . Now that he hath Erred , and therefore can Erre in a General Councel confirmed , in which he takes upon him to teach all Christendom , is most clear and evident . For the Pope teaches in and by the ‖ ‖ Concil. Later . Can. 1. Councel of Lateran Confirmed by Innocent the third ; Christ is present in the Sacrament by way of Transubstantiation . And in and by the * * Concil. Const. Sess ▪ 13. Councel of Constance , the Administration of the Blessed Sacrament to the Laity in one kinde , notwithstanding Christs Institution of it in both kindes for all . And in and by the † † Concil. Trid. Sess. 25 Decret. de Invocation● . Councel of Trent , Invocation of Saints , and Adoration of Images , to the great Scandal of Christianity , and as great hazard of the Weak . Now that these Particulars , among Many , are Errours in Divinity , and about the Faith , is manifest both by Scripture , & the Judgement of the Primitive Church . For Transubstantiation first ; That never was heard of in the Primitive Church , nor till the Councel of Lateran ; nor can it be proved out of Scripture ; and taken properly , cannot stand with the Grounds of Christian Religion . As for Communion in one kinde ; Christs Institution is clear against that . And not onely the Primitive Church , but the Whole Church of Christ kept it so , till within less than four hundred years . For ‖ ‖ Providè in quib●●d●m Ecclesiis observatur , ut Popul● Sanguis non deti● . Thom. p. 3. q. 80. A. 12. c. So it was but in some Churches in his time . Negare non possumu● etiam in Ecclesiâ L●tinâ fuisse usum utriusque speciei , & usque ad Tempora S. T●om● durasse . Vasq. in ● Disput. 216. c. 3. ● . 38. Aquinas confesses it was so in use even to his times ; And he was both born & dead during the Reign of Henry the third of England . Nay , it stands yet as a Monument in the very * * Refecti cibo pot●● ▪ c●lesti , Deus ●oster , Te●supplices ex●ramu● , &c. In proprio Missarum de Sa 〈…〉 , Jan. 15. Orat. post Communionem . 〈◊〉 Jan. ●1 . Missal , against the present Practice of the Church of Rome , That then it was usually Given and received in both kindes . And for Invocation of Saints , though some of the Ancient Fathers have some Rhetorical flourishes about it , for the stirring up of Devotion ( as they thought ) yet the Church then admitted not of the Innovation of them , but onely of the Commemoration of the Martyrs , as appears clearly in * * Ad quod Sac●●ficium suo loco & ordine Homines Dei nomind●tur , non tamen a Sa●●rdo●● , qu● Sa●r●●●ca● , Invocantur . S. Aug. L. 22. Civ . Dei , c. 10. S. Augustine . And when the Church prayed to God for any thing , she desired to be heard for the Mercies and the Merits of Christ , nor for the Merits of any Saints whatsoever . For I much doubt this were to make the Saints more than Mediators of Intercession ▪ which is all that † † Bellarm. L. 1 de Sanctor . Bedtitud . c. 20. § Ad primum ergo locum , &c. you acknowledge you allow the Saints . For I pray , is not by the Merits , more than by the Intercession ? Did not Christ redeem us by his Merits ? And if God must hear our Prayers for the Merits of the Saints , how much fall they short of sharers in the ‖ ‖ Sunt Redemptores nostri aliquo modo & secun 〈…〉 aliquid . Bellar. L. 1. de Indulgen● . c. 4. Et Sanctos appellat Numina , L. 2. de Imagin . Sanctorum , c. 20. § 3. Now if this word ( Numen ) signifie any thing else besides God himself , or the power of God , or the Oraole of God , let Bellarmine shew it ; or A. C for him . Mediation of Redemption ? You may think of this . For such Prayers as these the Church of Rome makes at this day , and they stand ( not without great scandal to Christ , and Christianity ) used , and authorized to be used in the Missal . For instance : * * Ut eju● Meritis & Precibus ● Gehe●ne ●●cendiis liberemur . In proprio Missarum de Sanctis , Decemb. 6. Upon the Feast of S. Nicolas you pray , That God by the Merits and Prayers of S. Nicolas , would deliver you from the fire of Hell . And upon the Octaves of S. Peter and S. Paul , † † Ut A●borum Meritis aeternitatis Glor●am consequam●● . Ibid. Julii 6. you desire God that you may Obtain the Glory of Eternity by their Merits . And on the ‖ ‖ Ejus intercedentibus Meritis ab Omnibus nos absolve peccatis . Ibid. Julli 14. Feast of S. Bonaventure you pray , that God would absolve you from all your sins by the Interceding Merits of Bonaventure . And for Adoration of Images , the * * In Optatus his time , the Christians were much troubled upon but a false report , That an Image was to be placed upon the Altar . What would they have done , if Adoration had been Commanded ? &c. Et rectè dictum erat , si tasem famam similis veritas sequeretur . Optat. L. 3. ad finem . Ancient Church knew it not . And the Modern Church of Rome is too like to Paganism in the Practice of it ; and driven to scarce Intelligible Subtilties in her Servants Writings that defend it ; And this without any Care had of Millions of Souls unable to understand her Subtilties , or shun her Practice . Did I say , the Modern Church of Rome is grown too like Paganism in this Point ? And may this speech seem too hard ? Well , if it do , I 'll give a Double Account of it . The One is : 'T is no harsher Expression than They of Rome use of the Protestants , and in Cases in which there is no shew or resemblance . For † † Sicut non licet cum Ethnicis Idola colere . Becan . L. de side Haeret. servunda , c. 8. Becanus tells us , 'T is no more lawful to receive the Sacrament as the Calvinisis receive it , than to worship Idols with the Ethnicks . And Gregory de Valentia enlarges it to more Points than one , but with no more truth . The Sectaries of our times ‖ ‖ Co●●i●git aliq●a●do H●retic●s ●ir●a plura errare quàm Gentiles , ut Manich●os , inquit Thomas . Quòd nos possumus verè dicere ●e nostri temporis Sectariis , qui culpabil●●èr in pluribus videntur errare . Valentia in 2. 2 ● . Disp. 1. ● . 1● . Punct. 3. ( saith he ) seem to Erre culpably in more things than the Gentiles . This is easily said , but here 's no Proof . Nor shall I hold it a sufficient warrant for me to sowre my Language , because these men have dipped their Pens in Gall. The Other Account therefore which I shall give of this speech , shall come vouched both by Authority and Reason . And first for Authority ; I could set Ludovicus Vives against Becanus , if I would , who says expresly , That the making of Feasts at the Oratories of the Martyrs ( which * * Quod quidem à Christianis m●lioribus non ●it . S ▪ Aug. L. 8. de Civ . Dei , c. 27. S. Augustine tells us , The best Christians practised not ) are a kinde of † † Illa quasi Par●u●alia superstitioni Gentilium simillima . Lud. Vives Ibid. Parentalia , Funeral-feasts too much resembling the superstition of the Gentiles . Nay , Vives need not say , resembling that superstition , since ‖ ‖ Quod ergo mortuis litabatur , utique Parentationi deputabatur , qu● species proinde Idololatriae est , quoniam & Idololatri● Parentationis ●●t species . Tert. L. de Spe●●acu●is , c. 12. Tertullian tells us plainly , that Idolatry it self is but a kinde of Parentation . And Vives dying in the Communion of the Church of Rome , is a better testimony against you , than Becanus , or Valentia , being bitter enemies to our Communion , can be against us . But I 'll come nearer home to you , and prove it by more of your own . For * * Manifestus est , quàm ut multis verbis explicari de●eat ▪ Imaginum & simulachrorum Cultum nimium invaluisse , & affectioni , se● potiùs superstitioni populi plus sa●●● indultum esse , it à ut ad summam adorationem , quae vel à Paganis suis simulachris ●xbibert consutvit , &c. Cassand Consult . Art. 21. C. de Imagibibu● . Where he names divers of your own , ●s namely , ●urant●s Minatensis Episco●us , John Billet , Gerson , Durand , Holkot , and Biel , rejecting the Opinion of Thomas , and other superstitions concerning Images . Ibid. Cassander , who lived and died in your Communion , says it expresly , That in this present Case of the Adoration of Images , you came full home to the Superstition of the Heathen . And secondly , for Reason , I have ( I think , too much to give , that the Modern Church of Rome is grown too like to Paganism in this Point . For the † † Non quod Credatur ●nesse aliqua in iis Divinitas , & velut● olim fiebat à Gentibus . Conc. Trid. Sess. 25. Decret. de Invocat. Councel of Trent it self confesses , That to believe there 's any Divinity in Images , is to do as the Gentiles did by their Idols . And though in some words after , the Fathers of that Councel seem very religiously careful , that all ‖ ‖ Et ●●dibus periculosi Erroris Occasiouem , &c. Ibid. Occasion of dangerous Errour be prevented ; yet the Doctrine it self is so full of danger , that it works strongly , both upon the Learned and Unlearned , to the scandal of Religion , and the perverting of Truth . For the Unlearned first , how it works upon them by whole Countries together , you may see by what happened in Asturiis , Cantabria , Galetia , no small parts of Spain . For there the People ( so * * Et ad●ò Gens affecta est trancis corrosis & deformibus Imaginibus , ut me teste , quo●●es Episcopi , decentiores ponere jubent , veteres suas petant plorantes , &c. Hieron . Lamas S●mma ▪ p. 3. c. 3 He tells me that was an Eye-witness , and that since the Councel of Trent ) are so addicted to their worm-eaten and deformed Images ; that when the Bishops commanded new , and handsomer Images to be set up in their rooms , the poor people cried for their old , would not look up to their new , as if they did not represent the same thing . And though he say , this is by little and little amended , yet I believe there 's very little Amendment . And it works upon the Learned too , more than it should . For it wrought so far upon Lamas himself , who bemoaned the former Passage , as that he delivers this Doctrine : † † Imagines Christi & S. Matris ●j●●s , & Sanctorum non sunt v●nerand● , acsi in ipsis Imaginibus esset Divinit a● , seeundùm quod sunt Materia Arte ●ffigiata , & non secundùm quod repraesentant Christum , & Sanctos , &c. Sic enim adorare , vel petere aliquid ab iis , esset Idololatria . Lam. ibid. That the Images of Christ , the blessed Virgin , and the Saints , are not to be worshipped , as if there were any Divinity in the Images , as they are material things made by Art , but onely as they represent Christ and the Saints : for else it were Idolatry . So then belike ▪ according to the Divinity of this Casuist , a man may worship Images , and ask of them ▪ and put his trust in them , as they represent Christ , and the Sam●s . For so there is Divinity in them , though not as Things , yet as Representers . An● what I pray did , or could any Pagan Priest say more than this ? For the Proposition resolved is this : The Images of Christ and the Saints , as they represent their Exemplars , have Deity or Divinity in them . And now I pray A. C. do you be judge , whether this Proposition do not teach Idolatry ? And whether the Modern Church of Rome be not grown too like to Paganism in this Point ? For my own part , I heartily wish it were not . And that men of Learning would not strain their wits to spoil the Truth , and rent the Peace of the Church of Christ , by such dangerous , such superstitious vanities . For better they are not ; but they may be worse . Nay , these and their like have given so great a Scandal among us , to some ignorant , though , I presume , well-meaning men , that they are afraid to testifie their duty to God , even in his own Quis ferat populum in Templum irruentem , 〈◊〉 haram sues ? Certè non obs●●t populo C●●●moni● , sed prosunt , si modus in ●is servet●r , & caveamus●è 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 loco habeaatur , hoc est , nè precipuam pietatem in illis collocemus . Rhen. Annot. in T●rtul . de Cor. ●●il . House , by any outward Gesture at all . Insomuch that those very Ceremonies , which , by the Judgement of Godly and Learned men , have now long continued in the Practice of this Church , suffer hard measure for the Romish Superstitions sake . But I will conclude this Point with the saying of B. Rhenanus : Who could endure the people ( says he ) rushing into the Church like Sivine into a Stye ? Doubtless , Ceremonies do not hurt the people , but profit them , so there be a Mean kept , and the By be not put for the Main , that is , so we place not the principal part of our Piety in them .

The Conference grows to an end , and I must meet it again ere we part . For you say ,

After this ( we all rising ) the Lady asked the B. whether she might be saved in the Roman Faith ? He answered , She might .

§ 34 What ? not one * * Cave nè dum v●s alium notare Culpae , ipse uoteris Calum 〈…〉 . S. Hier. ● . 3. advers. Pelagianos . Answer perfectly related ? My Answer to to this was General , for the ignorant , that could not discern the Errours of that Church ▪ so they held the Foundation , and conformed themselves to a religious life . But why do you not speak out what I added in this Particular ? That it must needs go harder with the Lady , even in point of Salvation , because she had been brought to understand very much , for one of her Condition , in these Controverted causes of Religion , And ● person that comes to know much , had need carefully bethink himself , that he oppose not known Truth against the Church that made him a Christian. For Salvation may be in the Church of Rome , and yet they not finde it , that make surest of it . Here A. C. is as confident as the Jesuite himself , That I said expresly , A. C. p. 64. That the Lady might be saved in the Roman Faith . Truly , 't is too long since now for me to speak any more than I have already , upon my Memory : But this I am sure of , That whatsoever I said of her , were it never so particular , yet was it under the Conditions before expressed .

I bad her mark that .

§ . 35 Num. 1 This Answer ( I am sure ) troubles not you . But it seems you would fain have it lay a load of envy upon me , that you profess you bad the Lady so carefully , mark that . Well , you bad her Mark that . For what ? For some great matter ? or for some new ? Not for some New sure . For the Protestants have ever been ready for Truth and in Charity to grant as much as might be . And therefore from the beginning many * *

Nos fatemur sub Papatu plu●imum esse boni , imò omne bonum Christianum , atque etiam illinc ad nos devenisse , &c. Luther . contra Anabaptist . citante Bellarmino , L. 4. de Notis Eccles. c. 16. §. penult. Et ●●●eld . Appendic● , par. 3. c. 2. Et Jos. Hall Bishop of Exeter , L. Of the Old Religion , c. 1. Many holding Christ the Foundation aright , and groaning under the burden of Popish trash , &c. by a general repentance , and assured Faith in their Saviour , did finde favour with the Lord. D. Gro. Abbot late Archbishop of Cant. Answer to Hill. ad Ration . 1. §. 30.

For my part I dare not deny the possibility of their Salvation , who have been the chiefest Instruments of ours , &c. Hooker in his Discourse of Justificat . §. 17. In former times a man might hold the general Doctrine of those Churches , wherein our Fathers lived , and be saved . And yet since the Councel of Trent some are found in it in such degree of Orthodoxy , as we may well hope of their Salvation . Field . l. 3. Eccl. c 47.

The Latine , or Western Church subject to the Romish Tyranny , was a true Church , in which a saving profession of the Truth of Christ was found . Jos. Hall Bishop of Exeter . L. Of the Old Religion , fine . in his Advertisement to the Reader , p. 202.

Non pauci retinuerunt Christum Fundamentum , &c. Mornaeus Tract . de Ecclesia c. 9. fine .

Inter sordes istas , ista quae summo cum periculo expectetur salus , non ipsorum Additamentis , sed iis , quae nobiscum habent communia , Fundamentis est attribuenda . Jo. Prideaux Lectione 9. fine .

Papa aliquam adhuc Religionis formam relinquit , spem vitae aeternae non tollit , &c. Calv. Instruct. advers. Libertinos , c. 4.

Learned men granted this . So that you needed not have put such a serious Mark that upon my speech , as if none before had , or none but I would speak it . And if your Mark that were not for some New matter , was it for some Great ? Yes sure , it was . For what greater then Salvation ? But then I pray , mark this too , That might be saved , grants but a † † Here A. C. gets another snatch , and tells us , That to grant a Possibility of Salvation in the Romane Church , is the free Confession of an Adversary , and therefore is of force against us , and extorted by Truth : But to say that salvation is more securely , and easily to be bad in the Protestant Faith , that 's but their partial Opinion in their own behalf , and of no force , especially with Romane Catholikes . I easily believe this latter part , That this , as A. C. and the rest use the matter with their Proselytes , shall be of little , or no force with Romane Catholikes . But it will behove them , that it be of Force . For let any indifferent man weigh the Necessary Requisites to Salvation , and he shall finde this no partial Opinion , but very plain and real Verity , That the Protestant living according to his belief , is upon the safer way to Heaven . And as for my Confession , let them enforce it as far as they can against me , so they observe my Limitations ; which if they do , A. C. and his fellows will ( of all the rest ) have but little comfort in such a limited Possibility . Possibility , no sure , or safe way to Salvation . The Possibility I think cannot be denied , the Ignorants especially , because they hold the Foundation , and cannot survey the Building . And the Foundation can deceive no man that rests upon it . But a secure way they cannot go , that hold with such corruptions , when they know them . Now whether it be wisdome , in such a Point as Salvation is , to forsake a Church , in the which the Ground of Salvation is firm , to follow a Church , in which it is but possible one may be saved , but very probable he may do worse , if he look not well to the Foundation , judge ye . I am sure ‖ ‖ L. 1. De Bapt. cont. D●n . c. 3. Graviter peccarent in rebus ad salutem animae pertinentibus , &c. eo solo , quod certis incerta praeponerent . S. Augustine thought it was not , and judged it a great sin , in Point of Salvation , for a man to prefer incerta certis , uncertainties and naked possibilities before an evident and certain Course . And * * Propter incertitudinem propriae Justitiae , & periculum inanis gloriae , tutissimum est fiduciam totam in solâ Dei misericordiâ & be●ignitate reponere . Bellar. L. 5. de Justif. c. 7. §. Sit tertia Propositio . Bellarmine is of opinion , and that in the Point of Justification : That in regard of the uncertainty of our own Righteousness , and of the danger of vain glory , tutissimum est , 't is safest to repose our whole trust in the Mercy and goodness of God . And surely , if there be One safer way than another , as he confesses there is , he is no wise man , that in a matter of so great moment will not betake himself to the safest way . And therefore even you your solves in the Point of Condignity of Merit , though you write it , and preach it boysterously to the People ; yet you are content to die , renouncing the condignity of all your own Merits , and trust to Christs . Now surely , if you will not venture to die as you live , live and believe in time , as you mean to die .

Num. 2 And one thing more , because you bid Mark this , let me remember to tell you for the benefit of others . Upon this very Point ( That we acknowledge an honest ignorant Papist may be saved ) you and your like work upon the advantage of our Charitie , and your own want of it , to abuse the weak . For thus I am told you work upon them . You see the Protestants ( at least many of them ) confess there may be salvation in our Church ; We absolutely deny there is salvation in theirs : Therefore it is safer to come to Ours , than to stay in theirs ; to be where , almost all grant Salvation , than where the greater part of the world deny it . This Argument is very prevailing with men , that cannot weigh it , and with women especially , that are put in fear by † † And this piece of Cunning to affright the weak was in use in Justin Martyrs time . Quosdam scimus , &c. ad Iracundiam suàm Evangelium pertrabentes , &c. quibus si potestas ea obtigisset ut nonnullos Gehennae traderent , Orbem quoque Universum consumpsissent : Just. Martyr . Epist. ad Zenam & Sere●●m . ( And here 't is ) ad Iracundiam suam Ecclesiam pertrabentes , &c. violent ( though causless ) denying Heaven unto them . And some of your party since this , have set out a Book , called Charity mistaken . But beside the Answer fully given to it , this alone is sufficient to Confute it . First , that in this our Charity ( what ever yours be ) is not mistaken , unless the Charity of the Church her self were mistaken in the Case of the Donatists , as shall ‖ ‖ § 35. Nu. 3. after appear . Secondly , even Mistaken Charity ( if such it were ) is far better than none at all . And if the Mistaken be ours , the None is yours . Yea , but A. C. tells us , That this denial A. C. p. 56. of Salvation is grounded upon Charity , as were the like threats of Christ , and the Holy Fathers . For there is but one true Faith , and one true Church , and out of that there is no Salvation . And he that will not hear the Church , S. Matth. 18. S. Mat. 18. 17. let him be as a Heathen , and a Publican , Therefore he says , 't is more Charitie to forewarn us of the danger , by these threats , than to let us run into it , through a false security . 'T is true , that there is but one true Faith , and but one true Church . But that one , both Faith , and Church , is the * * And this is proved by the Creed . In which we profess our Belief of the Catholike , not of the Roman Church . Catholike Christian , not the Particular Roman . And this Catholike Christian Church , he that will not both hear , and obey ; yea , and the Particular Church , in which he lives too , so far as it in necessaries agrees with the Universal , is in as bad condition as a Heathen and a Publican , and perhaps in some respects worse . And were we in this Case , we should thank A. C. for giving us warning of our danger . But 't is not so . For he thunders out all these threats , and denial of salvation , because we joyn not with the Roman Church , in all things ; as if her Corruptions were part of the Catholike Faith of Christ . So the whole passage is a meer begging of the Question , and then threatning upon it , without all ground of Reason or Charity . In the mean time let A. C. look to himself , that in his false security , he run not into the danger , and loss of his own salvation , while he would seem to take such care of ours . But though this Argument prevails with the weak , yet it is much stronger in the cunning , than the true force of it . For all Arguments are very moving , that lay their ground upon * * This is a free Confession of the Adversaries Argument against themselves , and therefore is of force . A. C. p. 64. But every Confession of Adversaries , or others , is to be taken with its Qualities and Conditions : If you leave out , or change these , you wrong the Confession , and then 't is of no force . And so doth A. C. here . And though Bellarm. makes the Confession of the Adversary a note of the true Church . L. 4. de 〈◊〉 Eccl. 16. yet in the very beginning , where he lays his Ground , §. 1. he lays it in a plain fallacy a secundùm quid ad simpliciter . the Adversaries Confession ; especially if it be confessed , and avouched to be true . But if you would speak truly , and say , Many Protestants indeed confess , there is salvation possible to be attained in the Roman Church ; but yet they say withal , that the Errours of that Church are so many † † For they are no mean Differences that are between us , by Bellarmines own Confession . Agendum est non de rebus levibus , sed de gravissimis Questionibus qua ad ipsa Fidei fundamenta pertinent , &c. Bellarm. in praefat. Operibus praefix● , §. 3. And therefore the Errours in them , and the Corruptions of them cannot be of small Consequence , by your own Confession . Yes , by your own indeed . For you A. C. say full as much , if not more than Bellarmine . Thus We Catholikes hold all points . In which Protestants differ from us in Doctrine of Faith , to be Fundamental , and necessary to be Believed , or at least not denied . A. C. Relation of the first Conference , p. 2● . ( and some so great , as weaken the Foundation ) that it is very hard to go that way to Heaven , especially to them that have had the Truth manifested ; the heart of this Argument were utterly broken . Besides , the force of this Argument lies upon two things , one directly Expressed , the other but as upon the By.

Num. 3 That which is expressed , is , We and our Adversaries consent , that there is salvation to some in the Roman Church . What ? would you have us as malicious , ( at least as rash ) as your selves are to us , and deny you so much , as possibility of Salvation ? If we should , we might make you in some things strain for a Proof . But we have not so learned Christ , as either to return evil for evil in this heady course , or to deny salvation to some ignorant silly souls , whose humble peaceable obedience makes them safe among any part of men , that profess the Foundation , Christ ; And therefore seek not to help our Cause by denying this comfort to silly Christians , as you most fiercely do , where you can come to work upon them . And this was an old trick of the Donatists . For in the Point of Baptism ( whether that Sacrament was true in the Catholike Church , or in the part of Donatus ) they exhorted all to be baptized among them . Why ? Because both parts granted , that Baptism was true among the Donatists ; which that peevish Sect most unjustly denied the sound part , as * * Esse v●●● apud Donatistas Baptismum , & illi aesserunt , & nos concedimus , &c. L. 1. de Bap. cont. Donat. c. 3. S. Augustine delivers it . I would ask now , Had not the Orthodox true Baptism among them , because the Donatists denied it injuriously ? Or should the Orthodox against Truth have denied Baptism , among the Donatists , either to cry quittance with them , or that their Argument might not be the stronger , because both parts granted ? But Mark this , how far you run from all common Principles of Christian Peace , as well as Christian Truth , while you deny salvation most unjustly to us , from which you are farther off your selves . Besides , if this were , or could be made a concluding Argument , I pray , why do not you believe with us in the Point of the Eucharist ? For all sides agree in the Faith of the Church of England , That in the most Blessed Sacrament , the Worthy receiver is by his † †

Corpus Christi manducatur in Coena , &c. tantùm Coelesti & spirituali ratione : Medium autem quo Corpus Christi accipitur & manducatur in Coenâ , Fides est . Eccl. Angl. Art . 28.

After a spiritual manner by Faith on our behalf , and by the working of the Holy Ghost on the behalf of Christ . Fulk in 1 Cor. 11. p. 528.

Christus se cum ommibus bonis suis in Coena offert , & nos cum recipimus fide , &c. Calv. 4. Instit. c. 17. §. 5. Et Hooker . L. 5. §. 67. p. 176.

And say not you the same with us ? Spiritualis manducatio , quae per Animam fit , ad Christi Carnem in Sacramento pertingit . Cajet. Tom. 2. Opusc. de Euchar. Tract . 2. Cap. 5.

Sed spiritualiter , id est , invisibiliter , & per virtutem Spiritus Sancti . Thom. p. 3. q. 75. A. 1 ad ● .

Spiritualiter manducandus est per Fidem & Charitatem . T●na . in Heb. 13. Difficultate 8.

Faith made spiritually partaker of the true and real Body and Blood of Christ ‖ ‖ I would have no man troubled at the words Truly and Really . For that blessed Sacrament received as it ought to be , doth Truly and Really exhibit and apply the Body and the Blood of Christ to the Receiver . So Bishop White in his Defence against T. W. P. Edit. London . 1617. p. 138. And Calvia . in 1 Cor. 10. 3. Verè datur , &c. And again in 1 Cor. 11. 24. Neque enim Mortis tantùm & Resurrectionis suae beneficium nobis offert Christus , sed Corpus ipsum in quo passus est , & resurrexit . Concludo Realit●r ( u● vulgò loquuntur ) hoc est . Verè nobis in Coen● datur Christi Corpus , ut sit An●mis nostris in Cibum Salutarem , &c. truly , and really , and of all the Benefits of his Passion . Your Roman Catholikes add a manner of this his Prefence , Transubstantiation , which many deny ; and the Lutherans a manner of this Presence , Consubstantiation , which more deny . If this Argument be good , then even for this Consent , it is safer Communicating with the Church of England , than with the Roman , or Lutheran ; Because all agree in this Truth , not in any other Opinion . Nay , * * Hoc totum pend●t ex Principiis Metaphysicis & Philosophicis , & ad Fidei Doctrinam non est necessarium . Suarez i● 3. Thom. Disput. 50. §. 2. Suarez himself , and he a very Learned Adversary ( what say you to this A. C ? doth Truth force this A. C. p. 64 , 65. from him ? ) Confesses plainly , That to Believe Transubstantiation is not simply necessary to Salvation . And yet he knew well the Church had determined it . And † † Bellar. L. 3. de Eucha . c. 18. §. Ex his colligimus . Bellarmine , after an intricate , tedious , and almost inexplicable Discourse about an Aductive Conversion ( A thing which neither Divinity , nor Philosophy ever heard of till then ) is at last forced to come to this : * * Sed quidquid sit de Modis loquendi , illud teuendum est , Conversionem Panis & Vini in Corpus & Sanguinem Christi esse substantialem , sed arcanam & ine●●abilem , & nullis natur olibus Conversionibus per omnia similem , &c. Bellar. in Recognit . hujus loci . Et Vid. § 38. Num. 3. Whatsoever is concerning the manner and forms of speech , illud tenendum e●t , this is to be held , that the Conversion of the Bread and Wine into the Body and the Blood of Christ , is substantial , but after a secret and ineffable manner , and not like in all things to any natural Conversion whatsoever . Now if he had left out Conversion , and affirmed only Christs real Presence there , after a mysterious , and indeed an ineffable manner , no man could have spoke better . And therefore , if you will force the Argument always to make that the safest way of Salvation , which differing Parties agree on ; why do you not yield to the force of the same Argument , in the Belief of the Sacrament , one of the most immediate means of Salvation , where not onely the most , but all agree ; And your own greatest Clarks cannot tell what to say to the Contrary ?

Num. 4 I speak here for the force of the Argument , which certainly in it self is nothing , though by A. C. made of great account ; A. C. p. 64. For he says , 'T is a Confession of Adversaries extorted by Truth . Just as * * Sed quia ita magnum firmamentum vanitatis vestrae in hâc sententiâ esse arbitramini , ut ad hoc tibi terminandam putares Epistolam quo quasi recentiùs in Animis I●gentem remaneret , brevitèr respondeo , &c. S. August . L. 2. cont. Lit. Petil . c. 108. And here A. C. ad hoc sibi putavit terminandam Collationem : sed frustra , ut apparebit . Num. 6. Petilian the Donatist brag'd in the case of Baptism . But in truth , 't is nothing . For the Syllogism , which it frames , is this . In Point of Faith and Salvation 't is safest for a man to take that way , which the differing Parties agree on . But Papists and Protestants ( which are the differing Parties ) agree in this , that there is salvation possible to be found in the Roman Church . Therefore 't is safest for a man to be , and continue in the Roman Church . To the Minor Proposition then ; I observe this only , that though many Learned Protestants grant this , all do not . And then that Proposition is not Universally true , nor able to sustain the Conclusion . For they do not in this all agree ; nay , I doubt not , but there are some Protestants , which can , and do as stifly , and as churlishly deny them Salvation , as they do us . And A. C. should do well to consider , whether they do it not upon as good reason at least . But for the Major Proposition ; Namely , That in Point of Faith and Salvation , 't is safest for a man to take that way , which the Adversary confesses , or the Differing Parties agree on . I say , that is no Metaphysical Principle , but a bare Contingent Proposition , and being indefinitely taken , may be true or false , as the matter is to which it is applied ; but being taken universally , is false , and not able to lead in the Conclusion . Now that this Proposition ( In point of Faith and Salvation , 't is safest for a man to take that way , which the differing Parties agree on , or which the Adversary confesses ) hath no strength in it self , but is sometimes true , and sometimes false , as the Matter is , about which it is conversant , is most evident . First , by Reason : Because Consent of disagreeing Parties is neither Rule , nor Proof of Truth . For Herod and Pilate , disagreeing Parties enough , yet agreed against Truth it self . But Truth rather is , or should be the Rule to frame , if not to force Agreement . And secondly , by the two Instances † † §. 35. N. 3. before given . For in the Instance between the Orthodox Church then , and the Donatists , this Proposition is most false ; For it was a Point of Faith , & so of Salvation , that they were upon , Namely , the right use and administration of the Sacrament of Baptism . And yet had it been safest to take up that way , which the differing Parts agreed on , or which the adverse Part Confessed , men must needs have gone with the Donatists against the Church . And this must fall out as oft as any Heretick will cunningly take that way against the Church , which the Donatists did , if this Principle shall go for currant . But in the second Instance , concerning the Eucharist , a matter of Faith , and so of Salvation too , the same Proposition is most true . And the Reason is , because here the matter is true ; Namely , The true , and real participation of the Body and Blood of Christ in that Blessed Sacrament . But in the former the matter was false , Namely , That Rebaptization was necessary after Baptism formally given by the Church . So this Proposition ( In Point of Faith and Salvation it is safest for a man to take that way , which the differing Parties agree in ; or which the Adversary confesses , ) is , you see , both true and false , as men have cunning to apply it , and as the matter is , about which it is Conversant . And is therefore no Proposition able , or fit to settle a Conclusion in any sober mans minde , till the Matter contained under it , be well scanned , and examined . And yet as much use as you would make of this Proposition to amaze the weak , your selves dare not stand to it , no not where the matter is undeniably true , as shall appear in divers Particulars beside this of the Eucharist .

Num. 5 But before I add any other particular Instances ▪ I must tell you what A. C. says to the two former . For he tells us , These A. C. p. 65. two are nothing like the present case . Nothing ? That is strange indeed . Why in the first of those Cases concerning the Donatists , your Proposition is false ; And so far from being safest , that it was no way safe for a man to take that way of Belief , and so of Salvation , which both parts agreed on . And is this nothing ; Nay , is not this full , and home to the present case ? For the present case is this , and no more . That it is safest taking that way of Belief which the differing Parties agree on : or which the Adversary Confesses . And in the second of those Cases concerning the Eucharist , your Proposition indeed is true , not by the Truth which it hath seen in it self , Metaphysically , and in Abstract , but onely in regard of the matter , to which it is applied ; yet there you desert your own Proposition , where it is true . And is this nothing ? Nay , is not this also full , and home to the present case , since it appears your Proposition is such as your selves dare not bide by , either when it is true , or when it is false ? For in the Case of Baptism administred by the Donatist , the Proposition is false , and you dare not bide by it , for Truths sake . And in the case of the Eucharist , the Proposition is true , and yet you dare not bide by it , for the Church of Romes sake . So that Church ( with you ) cannot erre , and yet will not suffer you to maintain Truth ; which not to do , is some degree of Errour , and that no small one .

Num. 6 Well , A. C. goes on , and gives his Reasons why these two Instances are nothing like the present Case . For in these Cases A. C. p. 65. ( saith he ) there are annexed other Reasons of certainly known peril of damnable Schism and Heresie , which we should in●ur by consenting to the Donatists denial of true Baptism among Catholikes : and to the Protestants denial , or doubting of the true substantial Presence of Christ in the Eucharist . But in this Case of Resolving to live and die in the Catholike Romàne Church , there is confessedly no such peril of any damnable Heresie , or Schism , or any other sin . Here I have many Particulars to observe upon A. C. and you shall have them , as briefly as I can set them down .

And first , I take A. C. at his word , that in the case of the Donatist , Punct. 1. should it be followed , there would be known peril of damnable Schism , and Heresie , by denying true Baptism to be in the Orthodox Church . For by this you may see , what a sound Proposition this is ( That where two Parties are dissenting , it is safest believing that in which both Parties agree , or which the Adversary confesses ) for here you may see by the case of the Donatist , is confessed , it may lead a man , that will universally lean to it , into known and damnable Schism and Heresie . An excellent Guide , I promise you , this , is it not ?

Nor secondly , are these , though A. C. calls them so , annexed Punct. 2. Reasons ; For he calls them so , but to blaunch the matter , as if A. C. p. 65. they fell upon the Proposition ab extra , accidentally , and from without ; Whereas they are not annexed , or pinned on , but flow naturally out of the Proposition it self . For the Proposition would seem to be Metaphysical , and is appliable indifferently to any Common Belief of dissenting Parties , be the point in difference what it will . Therefore if there be any thing Heretical , Schismatical , or any way evil in the Point , this Proposition being neither Universally , nor necessarily true , must needs cast him , that relies upon it , upon all these Rocks of Heresie , Schism , or what ever else follows the matter of the Proposition .

Thirdly , A. C. doth extremely ill to joyn these Cases of the Donatists Punct. 3. for Baptism , and the Protestant for the Eucharist together , A. C. p ▪ 66. as he doth . For this Proposition in the first concerning the Donatists , leads a man ( as is confessed by himself ) into known and damnable Schism and Heresie : but by A. C's good leave , the later concerning the Protestants , and the Eucharist , nothing so . For I hope A. C. dare not say , That to believe the true * * Caterùm his absurditatibus sublatis , quicquid ad Exprimen 〈…〉〈…〉〈…〉 Sanguinis Domini Communicationem , que sub 〈◊〉〈◊〉 symbolis , fidelibus exhibetur , facere potest , libenter recipio . Calv. L. 4. Inst. c. 17. § 19 ▪ 〈…〉 , per symbola 〈◊〉 & vi●i Christus verè nobis 〈◊〉 , &c. 〈◊〉 ●●s 〈◊〉 substanti● ejus facti sumus . Ibid. § 11. substantial Presence of Christ , is either known , or damnable Schism , or Heresie . Now as many , and as Learned † † § 35. Num. 3. Protestants believe and maintain this , as do believe possibility of Salvation ( as before is limited ) in the Romane Church : Therefore they in that not guilty of either known , or damnable Schism , or Heresie , though the Don●tists were of both .

Fourthly , whereas he imposes upon the Protestants , The denyal Punct. 4. A. C. p. 66. or doubting of the true and Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist ; he is a great deal more bold , than true , in that also : For understand them right , and they certainly , neither deny , nor doubt it . For as for the Lutheranes , as they are commonly called , their very Opinion of Consubstantiation makes it known to the world , that they neither deny , nor doubt of his true , and Real presence there . And they are Protestants . And for the Calvinists , if they might be rightly understood , they also maintain a most true and Real presence , though they cannot permit their Judgement to be Transubstantiated . And they are Protestants too . And this is so known a Truth , that ‖ Bellarmine

* Bellarm. L. 1. de Euchar. c. 2. ● Quint● d●cit . Sacramentarii saepè dicunt reale Corpus Christi in Coenà adesse , sed realitèr 〈…〉 dicunt , quod legerim , nis● 〈◊〉 loquuntur de Coenâ quae fit in Coel● , &c.

And that he means to brand Protestants under the name of Sacramentarii , is plain . For he says the Councel of Trent opposed this word realitèr , Figmento Calvinistico , to the Calvinistical Figment . Ibid.

confesses it . For he saith , Protestants do often grant , that the true and real Body of Christ is in the Eucharist . But he addes , That they never say ( so far as he hath read ) That it is there Truely and Really , unless they speak of the Supper which shall be in Heaven . Well : first , if they grant that the true and Real Body of Christ is in that Blessed Sacrament ( as Bellarmine confesses they do , and 't is most true ) then A. C. is false , A. C. p. 65. who charges all the Protestants with denyal , or doubtfulness in this Point . And secondly , Bellarmine himself also shews here his Ignorance , or his Malice : Ignorance , if he knew it not ; Malice , if he would not know it . For the Calvinists , at least they which follow Calvin himself , do not onely believe that the true and real Body of Christ is received in the Eucharist , but that it is there , and that we partake of it verè & realitèr , which are † † Calv. in 1 Con. 10. 3. verè , &c. 〈◊〉〈◊〉 1 Cor. 〈◊〉 . 24. realiter . 〈◊〉〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 . 3. Calvins own words ; and yet Bellarmine boldly affirms , that to his reading , no one Protestant did ever affirm it . And I , for my part , cannot believe but Bellarmine had read Calvin , and very carefully , he doth so frequently and so mainly Oppose him . Nor can that Place by any Art be shifted , or by any Violence wrested from Calvin's true meaning of the Presence of Christ in and at the blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist , to any Supper in Heaven whatsoever . But most manifest it is , that Quod legerim , for ought I have read , will not serve Bellarmine to excuse him . For he himself , but in the very ‖ ‖ Bellar. L. 1. 〈◊〉 Eucharisti● , c. ●● 5 〈…〉 , docet . Chapter going before , quotes four Places out of Calvin , in which he says expresly , That we receive in the Sacrament the Body and the Bloud of Christ Verè , truly . So Calvin says it four times , and Bellarmine quotes the places ; and yet he says in the very next Chapter , That never any Protestant said so , to his Reading . And for the Church of England , nothing is more plain , than that it believes and teaches the true and Real presence of Christ in the * * The Body of Christ is given , taken , and eaten in the Supper ( of the Lord ) onely after an Heavenly and Spiritual manner . And the means whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten , is Faith . Eccl. Angl. Art . 28. So here 's the manner of Transubstantiation denied , but the Body of Christ twice affirmed . And in the Prayer before Consecration , thus : Grant us graci●●● Lord so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ , and to drink his Bloud , &c. And again , in the second Prayer or Thanksgiving after Consecration , thus : We give thee thanks , for that thou dost vouchsafe to feed us which have duly received these holy Mysteries with the spiritual food of the most precious Body and Bloud of thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ , &c. Eucharist , unless A. C. can make a Body no Body , and Bloud no Bloud , ( as perhaps he can by Transubstantiation ) as well as Bread no Bread , and Wine no Wine . And the Church of England is Protestant too . So Protestants of all sorts maintain a true and Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist ; and then , where 's any known , or damnable Heresie here ? As for the Learned of those zealous men that died in this Cause in Q. Maries days , they denied not the Real presence simply taken , but as their Opposites forced Transubstantiation upon them , as if that , and the Real presence had been all one . Whereas all the Ancient Christians ever believed the one , and none but Modern and Superstitious Christians believe the other ; if they do believe it : for I , for my part , doubt they do not . And as for the Unlearned in those times , and all times , their zeal ( they holding the Foundation ) may eat out their Ignorances , and leave them safe . Now that the Learned Protestants in Queen Mary's days , did not deny , nay did maintain the Real presence , will manifestly appear . For when the Commissioners obtruded to Jo. Frith the Presence of Christ's natural Body in the Sacrament , and that without all figure , or similitude : Jo. Frith acknowledges , † † Jo. Fox Martyrolog. Tom. 2. London 1597. p. 943. That the inward man doth as verily receive Christ's Body , as the outward man receives the Sacrament with his Mouth : And he addes , ‖ ‖ Fox Ibid. That neither side ought to make it a necessary Article of Faith , but leave it indifferent . Nay , Archbishop Cranmer comes more plainly , and more home to it than Frith . For if you understand ( saith * * Cranmer apud Fox ibid. p. 1301. he ) by this word really , Reipsa , that is , in very deed and effectually ; so Christ by the grace and efficacie of his Passion , is indeed , and truly present , &c. But if by this word Really , you understand † †

I say Corporalitèr , corporally ; for so Bellarmine hath it expresly : Quod autem Corporalitèr & propriè s●●●atur Sanguis & Caro , &c. prob●●i potest omnibus Argumentis , &c. Bell. L. 1. de Eucharistic ▪ 12. § Sed tota . And I must be bold to tell you more than , That this is the Doctrine of the Ch. of Rome . For I must tell you too , that Bellarm. here contradicts himself . For he that tells us here , that it can be proved by many Arguments , that we receive the Flesh and the Bloud of Christ in the Eucharist corporalitèr , said as expresly before ( had he remembred it ) that though Christ be in this Blessed Sacrament verè & realiter , yet ( faith he ) non dicemus corporaliter , i. e. co modo quo s●d naturâ existunt Corpora , &c. Bell. L. 1. de Euchar. c. 2. § Tertia Regula . So Bell. here is in a notorious contradiction . Or else it will follow plainly out of him , that Christ in the Sacrament is existent one way & received another ; which is a gross absurdity . And that corporaliter was the Doctrine of the Ch. of Rome , & meant by Transubstantiation , is farther plain in the book called The Institution of a Christian man , set forth by the Bishops in

Convocation in H. 8's time , an. 1534. c. Of the Sacrament of the Altar . The words are : Under the form & figure of Bread & Wine , the very body and bloud of Christ is corporally , really , &c. exhibited and received , &c. And Aqui●as expresse●●● thus : Quia tamen substantia Corporis Christi realiter non dividitur à sua quantitate dimensiva , & ab aliis accidentibus , ind● est , quòd ex vi realis Concomitantiae est in Sacramento tot● quantitas dimensiva Corpori● Christi , & omnia accidentia ejus . Tho. p. 3. q. 76. Ar. 4. c.

Corporalitèr , Corporally , in his natural and Organical Body , under the Forms of Bread and Wine , 't is contrary to the Holy Word of God . And so likewise Bishop Ridley . Nay , Bishop Ridley addes yet farther , and speaks so fully to this Point , as I think no man can adde to his Expression : And 't is well if some Protestants except not against it . Both you and I ( faith * * Apud Fox ibid. p. 1598. he ) agree in this : That in the Sacrament is the very true and natural Body and Bloud of Christ , even that which was born of the Virgin Mary ; which ascended into heaven , which sits on the right hand of God the Father , which shall come from thence to judge the quick and the dead . Onely we differ in modo , in the way and manner of being . We confess all one thing to be in the Sacrament , and dissent in the Manner of Being there . I confess Christs natural Body to be in the Sacrament by Spirit and Grace , &c. You make a grosser kinde of Being , inclosing a natural Body under the shape and form of Bread and Wine . So far , and more , Bishop Ridley . And † † Apud Fox ibid. 1703. Archbishop Cranmer confesses , That he was indeed of another Opinion , and inclining to that of Zuinglius , till Bishop Ridley convinced his Judgement , & setled him in this Point . And for ‖ ‖ Tantùm de modo quaestiö est , &c. Et ●acessat calum●ia auferri Christum à Coenâ suâ , &c. Calv. L. 4. Inst. c. 17. § 31. Veritatem Dei in quâ acquiescere tutò licet , sine controversia amplectar . Pronunciat ille Carnem suam esse Animae meae cibum , Sanguinem esse potum . Talibus alimentis animam Illi meam pascendam o●●●●o . In S. Coena jubet me sub Symbolis Panis & Vini Corpus & Sanguinem suum sumere , manducare & bi●ere . Nihil dubito , quin & Ipse Verè porrigat , & ego recipiam . Calv. ibid. § 32. Calvin , he comes no whit short of these , against the Calumny of the Romanists on that behalf . Now after all this , with what face can A. C. say ( as he doth ) That Protestants deny , or doubt of the true , and Real presence of Christ in the Sacrament ? I cannot well tell , or am unwilling to utter .

Fifthly , whereas 't is added by A. C. That in this present case , Punct. 5. there is no peril of any damnable Heresie , Schisme , or any other A. C. p. 66. Sin , in resolving to live and die in the Roman Church . That 's not so neither . For he that lives in the Roman Church , with such a Resolution , is presumed to believe as that Church believes . And he that doth so , I will not say is as guilty , but guilty 〈…〉 is , more , or less , of the Schism which that Church first caused by her Corruptions , and now continues by them , and her power together ; And of all her Damnable Opinions too , in point of Misbelief , though perhaps A. C. will not have them called Heresies , unless they have been condemned in some General Councel ; And of all other sins also , which the Doctrine and Misbelief of that Church leads him into . And mark it I pray . For 't is one thing to live in a Schismatical Church , and not Communicate with it in the Schism , or in any false Worship that attends it . For so Elias lived among the Ten Tribes , and was not Schismatical , 3 Reg. 3 Reg. 17. 17. And after him Elizaeus , 4 Reg. 3. But then neither 4 Reg. 3. of them either countenanced the Schism , or worshipped the Calves in Dan , or in Bethel . And so also beside these Prophets , did those Thousands live in a Schismatical Church ; yet never bowed their knee to Baal , 3. Reg. 19. But 't is quite another 3 Reg. 19. 18. thing to live in a Schismatical Church , and Communicate with it in the Schism , and all the Superstitions and Corruptions , which that Church teaches , nay to live and die in them . For certainly here no man can so live in a Schismatical Church , but if he be of capacity enough , and understand it , he must needs be a Formal Schismatick , or an Involved One , if he understand it not . And in this case the Church of Rome is either far worse , or more cruel than the Church of Israel , even under Ahab and Jezabel , was . The Synagogue indeed was corrupted a long time , and in a great degree . But I do not finde , that this Doctrine , You must sacrifice in the high places : Or this , You may not go and worship at the one Altar in Jerusalem , was either taught by the Priests , or maintained by the Prophets , or enjoyned the people by the Sanedrim : Nay , can you shew me when any Jew living there devoutly according to the Law , was ever punished for omitting the One of these , or doing the Other ? But the Church of Rome hath solemnly decreed her Errours : And erring , hath yet decreed withal , That she cannot erre . And imposed upon Learned men , disputed and improbable Opinions , Transubstantiation , Purgatory , and Forbearance of the Cup in the blessed Eucharist , even against the express Command of our Saviour , and that for Articles of Faith . And to keep off Disobedience , what ever the Corruption be , she hath bound up her Decrees upon pain of Excommunication , and all that follows upon it . Nay , this is not enough , unless the Fagot be kindled to light them the way . This then may be enough for us to leave Rome , though the old Prophet 3 Reg. 13. 11. forsook not Israel , 3. Reg. 13. And therefore in this present case there 's peril , great peril of damnable both Schism and Heresie , and other sin , by living and dying in the Roman Faith , tainted with so many superstitions , as at this day it is , and their Tyranny to boot . So that here I may answer A. C. just as * * Petilianus dixit , Venite ad Ecclesiam populi , & aufugite Traditores ( ita Orthodoxos tum appellavit ) si cum iisdem perire non vultis . Num ut facilè cogno●catis quòd ipsi sunt rei , de fide nostra optimè judicant . Ego illorum infectos baptizo . Illi meos ( quod absit ) recipiunt baptizatos , quae om●ino non ●acerent , si in Baptismo nostro culpas aliquas agnovissent . Videte ergo quod damus , quam sanctum sit , quod destruere metuit Sacrilegus Inimicus . S. August . respondet . Sic approbamus in Haereticis Baptismum , nox Haereticorum , sed Christi , sicut in Fornicasoribus , Idololatris , Veneficis , &c. approbamus Baptismum non eorm , sed Christi . Omnes enim isti , inter quos & Haeretici sunt , sicut dicit Apostolus : Regnum Dei non possidebunt , &c. ● . August . ● . 2. cont. Lit. Petiliani . c. 108. S. Augustine answered Petilian the Donatist , in the fore-named case of Baptism . For when Petilian pleaded the Concession of his Adversaries , That Baptism , as the Donatists administred it , was good and lawful , and thence inferred ( just as the Jesuite doth against me ) that it was better for men to joyn with his Congregation , than with the Church S. Augustine answers ; We do indeed approve among Hereticks Baptism , but so , not as it is the Baptism of Hereticks , but as it is the Baptism of Christ . Just as we approve the Baptism of Adulterers , Idolaters , Witches , and yet not as 't is theirs ; but as 't is Christs Baptism . For none of these , for all their Baptism , shall inherit the Kingdom of God . And the Apostle reckons Hereticks among them , * * Galat. 5. 19 , 20 , 21. Galat. 5. And again afterwards : It is not therefore yours ( saith † † Non ergo vestrum est quod destruert metuimus , sed Christi ; quod & in sacrilegis per se sanctum est . S. August . Ibid. Saint Augustine ) which we fear to destroy , but Christs , which even among the Sacrilegious , is of , and in it self , holy . Now you shall see how full this comes to our Petilianist A. C. ( for he is one of the Contractors of the Church of Christ to Rome , as the Donatists confined it to Asrick . ) And he cries out , That a Possibility A. C. p. 64 , 65. of Salvation , is a free Confession of the Adversaries , and is of force against them , and to be thought extorted from them by force of Truth it self . I answer . I do indeed for my part ( leaving other men free to their own judgment ) acknowledge a Possibility of Salvation in the Roman Church . But so , as that which I grant to Romanists , is not as they are Romanists , but as they are Christians , that is , as they believe the Creed , and hold the Foundation Christ himself , not as they associate themselves wittingly and knowingly to the gross Superstitions of the Romish Church . Nor do I fear to destroy quod ipsorum est , that which is theirs ; but yet I dare not proceed so roughly , as with theirs , or for theirs to deny , or weaken the Foundation , which is Christs , even among them ; and which is , and remains holy even in the midst of their Superstitions ; And I am willing to hope there are many among them , which keep within that Church , and yet wish the Superstitions abolished which they know , and which pray to God to forgive their errours in what they know not , and which hold the Foundation firm , and live accordingly , and which would have all things amended that are amiss , were it in their power . And to such I dare not deny a Possibility of Salvation , for that which is Christs in them , though they hazzard themselves extremely by keeping so close to that , which is Superstition , and in the Case of Images , comes too near Idolatry . Nor can A. C. shift this off A. C. p. 66. by adding , living and dying in the Romane Church . For this living and dying in the Romane Church , ( as is before expressed ) cannot take away the Possibility of Salvation from them which believe , and repent of whatsoever is errour , or sin in them , be it sin known to them , or be it not . But then perhaps A. C. will reply , that if this be so , I must then maintain , that a Donatist also , living and dying in Schism , might be saved . To which I answer two ways . First , that a plain honest Donatist , having ( as is confessed ) true Baptism , and holding the Foundation ( as for ought I know , the * *

For though Prateolus will make Donatus , and from him the Donatists , to be gullty of an impious Heresie ( I doubt he means Arrianism , though he name it not ) in making the Son of God less than the Father , and the Holy Ghost less than the Son . L 4. de Haeres . Haer. 14. yet these things are most manifest out of S. Aug. concerning them , who lived with them both in time and place , and understood them , and their Tenets far better than Prateolus could .

And first , S. Aug. tells us concerning them : Aryiani ▪ Patris , & Filii , & Spiritus Sancti , diversas substantias esse dicunt . Donatistae autem unam Trinitatis substantiam confitentur . So they are no Arrians .

Secondly , Si aliqui eorum minorem Filium esse dixerunt quàm Pater est , ejusd●m tamen substantiae non ●●gârunt . But this is but si aliq●● , if any : so 't was doubtful , this too , though Patreolus delivers it positively .

Thirdly , Plurimi ver● in iis ●oe se dicunt , omnino credere de Patre , & Fili● , & Spirit● Sancto , quod Catholica credit Ecclesia . Nec ●●sa cum illis vertitur Questio , sed de sola Communione i●●oeliciter litigant , &c. De sola . Only about the Union with the Church . Therefore they erred not in Fundamental Points of Faith . And

Lastly , All that can farther be said against them , is , That some of them , to win the Goths to them , when they were powerful , said , Hoc se Credere quod & illi Credunt . Now the Goths ( for the most ) were Arrians . But then , faith S. Aug. they were but n●●nulli , some of them . And of this some it was no more Certain , than sicut andivimus , as we have heard , S. Aug. knew it not . And then if it were true of some , yet Majorum s●orum Authoritate convincuntur ; Quia nec Donatus ipse sic credidisse asseritur , de cujus parte se esse gloriantur . S. Aug. Epist. 50. Where Prateolus is again deceived ; for he says expresly , that Donatus affirmed the Son to be less then the Father . Impius ille asserebat , &c. But then indeed , ( and which perchance deceived Patreolus ) beside Donatus the founder of this Heresie , there was another Donatus , who succeeded Majorinus at Carth●ge , and he was guilty of the Heresie , which Prateolus mentions , Et extant scripta ejus ubi appare● , a● S. Aug. confesses , L 1. de Haeres . Haer. 69. But then S. Aug. adds there also , nec facilè in iis quisquam , that scarce any of the Donatists did so much as know , that this Donatus held that Opinion , much less did they believe it themselves . S. Aug. Ibid.

Donatists did ) and repenting of what ever was sin in him , and would have repented of the Schism , had it been known to him , might be saved ▪ Secondly , that in this Particular , the Romanist and the Donatist differ much ; And that therefore it is not of necessary consequence , that if a Romanist now ( upon the Conditions before expressed ) may be saved ; Therefore a Donatist heretofore might . For in regard of the Schism the Donatist was in one respect worse , and in greater danger of damnation than the Romanist now is : And in another respect better , and in less danger . The Donatist was in greater danger of damnation , if you consider the Schism it self then ; for they brake from the Orthodox Church without any cause given them . And here it doth follow , if the Romanist have a Possibility of Salvation , therefore a Donatist hath . But if you consider the Cause of the Schism now , then the Donatist was in less danger of Damnation than the Romanist is ; Because the Church of Rome gave the first and the greatest cause of the Schism ( as is proved † † §. 21. N. 1 , &c. before . ) And therefore here it doth not follow , That if a Donatist have possibility of Salvation , Therefore a Romanist hath ; For a lesser Offender may have that possibility of safety , which a greater hath not .

And last of all , whereas A. C. adds , that confessedly there is Punct. 6. no such Peril . That 's a most loud untruth , and an Ingenuous A. C. p. 66. man would never have said it . For in the same * * §. 35. N. 1 , 2. place , where I grant a possibility of Salvation in the Roman Church , I presently add , that it is no secure way , in regard of Roman Corruptions . And A. C. cannot plead for himself that he either knew not this , or that he overlook'd it ; for himself disputes against it as strongly as he can . What modesty , or Truth call you this ? For he that confesses a possibility of Salvation , doth not thereby confess no peril of Damnation in the same way . Yea , but if some Protestants should say there is peril of Damnation to live and die in the Roman Faith , their saying is nothing in comparison of the number or worth of those that say , there is none . So A. C. again . And beside , they which say it , are contradicted by their own more Learned Brethren . Here A. C. speaks A. C. p. 66. very confusedly . But whether he speak of Protestants , or Romanists , or mixes both , the matter is not great . For as for the Number and Worth of men , they are no necessary Concluders for Truth . Not Number ; for who would be judged by the Many ? The time was when the * * I●gemuit totus Orbis , & Arrianum se esse miratus est . S. H●er . advers. Luciferian . post medium . To. 2. Arrianorum Venenum non ●am portiunculam quandam , sed p●●è Orbem totum contaminaverat , adeo ●t propè cunctis Latini Sermonis Episcop●● , partim vi , partim fraude deceptis , caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur , &c. Vin. Lir. cont. Haeres . c. 6. Ecclesia non Parietibus consistit , sed in Dogmatum veritate . Ecclesia ibi est , ubi fides vera est . Caeterùm ante annos quindecim , aut viginti , Parietes omnes hic Ecclesiarum Haeretici ( de Arrianis & aliis Haereticis loquitur ) possidebant , &c. Ecclesia autem illic erat , ubi fides vera erat . S. Hier. in Psal. 133. Constantius Tantane Orbis terrae pars , Liberi , in te residet , ut tu solus homini Impio ( de Athanasio loquitur ) subsidio veni●● , & pace● Orbis ac Mundi totius dirimere au●●as . Liberius . Esto quod ego solus sim , non tamen propterea Causa fidei fit inferior ; nam olim tres solum erant reperti , qui Regis mandato resisterent , &c. Theod. L 2. Hist. Eccles. c. 16. Dialogo inter Constant. Imp. & Liberium Pa●am . So that Pope did not think Maltitade any great note of the true Church ubi sunt , &c. qui Ecclesiam multitudi●e definiunt , & parvum gr●gem aspernantur , &c. Greg. Naz. Orat. 25. prin. Nay , the Arrians were grown to that boldness , that they Objected to the Catholicks of that time Paucitatem , the thinness of their number , Greg. Naz. Carm. de vita sua , p. 24. Edit. Paris . 1611. Quum ejecti tam●● essent de Civitatibu● , ja●●aba●t in desertis suis Synagogis illud : Multi vocati , pauci electi , Socr. L. 1. Hist. Eccl. c. 10. Arrians were too many for the Orthodox . Not Worth simply , for that once † † Error Origenis & Tertullian● magna fuit in Ecclesia D●● Populi tentatio , Vin. Lir. cont. Haer. c. 23 , & 24. misled , is of all other the greatest misleader . And yet God forbid , that to Worth weaker men should not yield in difficult and Perplexed Questions , yet so , as that when Matters Fundamental in the Faith come in Question they finally rest upon an higher , and clearer certainty than can be found in either Number or Weight of men . Besides , if you mean your own Party , you have not yet proved your Party more worthy for Life of Learning than the Protestants . Prove that first , and then it will be time to tell you , how worthy many of your Popes have been for either Life or Learning . As for the rest , you may blush to say it . For all Protestants unanimously agree in this , That there is great peril of Damnation for any man to live and die in the Roman perswasion . And you are not able to produce any one Protestant , that ever said the contrary . And therefore that is a most notorious slander , where you say , that they which affirm this peril of Damnation , are contradicted A. C. p. 66. by their own more Learned Brethren .

Num. 7 And thus having cleared the way against the Exceptions of A. C. to the two former Instances , I will now proceed ( as I ‖ ‖ §. 35. N. 4. promised ) to make this farther appear , that A. C. and his Fellows dare not stand to that ground , which is here laid down . Namely , That in Point of Faith and Salvation , it is safest for a man to take that way which the Adversary Confesses to be true , or whereon the differing Parties agree . And that if they do stand to it , they must be forced to maintain the Church of England in many things against the Church of Rome .

And first , I Instance in the Article of our Saviour Christs Descent Punct. 1. into Hell . I hope the Church of Rome believes this Article , and withal that Hell is the place of the Damned ; so doth the Church of England . In this then these dissenting Churches agree ; Therefore according to the former Rule ( yea and here in Truth too ) 't is safest for a man to believe this Article of the Creed , as both agree : That is , that Christ descended in Soul into the Place of the Damned ; but this the Romanists will not endure at any hand . For the * * Sequuntur en●m Thom. p. 3. q. 52. Ar. 2. c. Verba ejus sunt . Anim● Christi per suam essentiam descendit solum ad locum Inferni , in quo justi detinebantur , &c. Ezec. 13. 10. School agree in it , That the Soul of Christ in the time of his death went really no farther than in Limbum Patrum , which is not the place of the Damned ; but a Region or Quarter in the upper part of Hell , ( as they call it ) built up there by the Romanist , without Licence of either Scripture , or the Primitive Church . And a man would wonder how those Builders with untempered Mortar found light enough in that dark Place to build as they have done .

Secondly , I 'll instance in the Institution of the Sacrament in Punct. 2. both kinds . That Christ Instituted it so , is confessed by both Churches ; and the Ancient Churches received it so , is agreed by both Churches . Therefore according to the former Rule ( and here in Truth too ) 't is safest for a man to receive this Sacrament in both kinds . And yet here this Ground of A. C. must not stand for good , no not at Rome , but to receive in one kinde is enough for the Laity . And the poor † † Basiliens● Conc●lium concessit Bohemis utriusque spec●●i usum : mod● faterentur id sibi concedi ab Ecclesia , non autem ad hoc teneri Divino j●r● . Bel. L. 1. de Sacrament . in genere , c. 2. §. 2. Bohemians must have a Dispensation , that it may be lawful for them to receive the Sacrament as Christ commanded them . And this must not be granted to them neither , unless they will ackdowledge ( most opposite to Truth ) that they are not bound by Divine Law to receive it in both kinds . And here their Building with untempered Mortar appears most manifestly . For they have no shew to maintain this , but the fiction of Thomas of Aquin , That he which receives the Body of Christ , receives also his Blood per ‖ concomitantiam , by concomitancy ; because the Blood goes always with the Body ; of which Term ‖ ‖ Tho. p. 3. q. 76. A. 2. c. & alibi passim . Thomas was the first Author I can yet finde . First then , if this be true , I hope Christ knew it : And then why did he so unusefully institute it in both kinds ? Next , if this be true , Concomitancy accompanies the Priest , as well as the People ; and then why may not he receive it in one kinde also ? Thirdly , this is apparently not true : For the Eucharist is a Sacrament Sanguinis effusi , of Blood shed , and poured out ; And Blood poured out , and so severed from the Body , goes not along with the Body per concomitantiam . And yet Christ must rather erre , or proceed I know not how in the Institution of the Sacrament in both kindes , rather than the Holy unerring Church of Rome may do amiss in the Determination for it , and the Administration of it in one kinde . Nor will the Distinction , That Christ instituted this as a Sacrifice , to which both kinds were necessary , serve the turn : For suppose that true , yet he instituted it , as a Sacrament also , or else that Sacrament had no Institution from Christ ; which I presume A. C. dares not affirm . And that Institution which the Sacrament had from Christ , was in both kindes .

And since here 's mention happen'd of Sacrifice , my Third Instance Punct. 3. shall be in the Sacrifice which is offer'd up to God in that Great and High Mystery of our Redemption by the death of Christ . For as Christ offer'd up * * Christ by his own Bloud entred once into the Holy place , and obtained eternal Redemption for us . Heb. 9. 12. And this was done by way of Sacrifice ; by the offering of the Body of Jesus Christ once made , Heb. 10. 10. Christ gave himself for us , to be an Offering , and a Sacrifice of a sweet smelling savour unto God , Eph. 5. 2. Out of which place the School infers , Passionem Christi verum Sacrificium fuisse . Tho. p. 3. q. 48. Art. 3. c. Christ did suffer death upon the Cross for our Redemption , and made there , by his one Oblation of himself once offered , a full , perfect , and sufficient Sacrifice , Oblation , and Satisfaction for the sins of the whole World . Eccles. Angl. in Canone Consecrationis E●cbar . himself once for all , a full and all-sufficient Sacrifice for the sin of the whole world : So did He Institute , and Command a † † And Christ did Institute , and in his holy Gospel Command us to continue a Perpetual Memory of that his precious Death , until his Coming again . Eccles. Angl. ibid. Memory of this Sacrifice in a Sacrament , even till his coming again . For at , and in the Eucharist , we offer up to God three Sacrifices . One by the Priest onely , that 's the ‖ ‖ Sacramentum b●c est Commemorati●um Dominice Passionis , quae fuit verum Sacrificium ; & sic Nominatur Sacrificium . Tho. p. 3. q. 73. A. 4. C. Christ being Offer'd up once for all in his own proper Person , is yet said to be Offer'd up , &c. in the Celebration of the Sacrament ; Because his Oblation once for ever made , is thereby Represented . Lambert in Fox his Martyrolog. Vol. 2. ●dit . ●ond . 1579. p. 1033. Et postea ▪ 'T is a Memorial , or Representation thereof . Ibid. The Master of the Sentences judged truly in this Point , saying : That which is Offer'd and Consecrated of the Priest , is called a Sacrifice and Oblation , because it is a Memory , and Representation of the true Sacrifice , and holy Oblation made on the Altar of the Cross. Archb. Cranm●r in his Answer to Bishop Gardner concerning the most holy Sacrament , L. 5. p. 377. And again , this shortly is the minde of Lombardus , That the thing which is done at Gods Board is a Sacrifice , and so is that also which was made upon the Cross , but not after one manner of understanding ▪ For this was the Thing indeed , and that is the Commemoration of the thing . Ibid. So likewi●e Bishop Jewel acknowledgeth incruentum & ●atio●abil● Sacrificium , spoken of by Euseb. de Demonstrat . Evang ▪ ● . 1. Jewels Reply against Harding . Art. 7. Divis. 9. Again , the ministration of the holy Communion is sometimes of the Ancient Fathers called an Unblo●dy Sacrifice , not in respect of any Corporal or Fleshly presence , that is imagined to be there without bloudshedding , but for that it representeth , and reporteth to our mindes that one , and everlasting Sacrifice that Christ made in his Body upon the Cross. This Bishop Jewel disliketh not in his Answer to Harding , Art. 17. Divis. 14. Patres C●nam Dominicam duplici de causa vocaru●t Sacrificium incruentum . Tum quo●●●t Imago & sole●●is repraesentatio illius Sacrificii 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 quod Christus cum sanguinis effusione obtulit in Cruce : Tum quod sit etiam Eucharisticum Sacrificium , id est , Sacrificium Laudis & grati●rum actionis , cùm pro benefic●is omnibus , tùm pro redemptione imprimis per Christi mort●m peractâ . Zanch. in 2 Praecept . Decal . T. 4. p. 459. And D. Fulk also acknowledges a Sacrifice in the Eucharist . In S. Matth. 26. 26. Non dissimulaverint Christiani i● Coena Domini , sive ●t ips● loqu●bantur , in Sacrificio Altaris peculiari q●odam modo praesentem se venerari Deum Christia●or●m ▪ sed que esset forma ejus Sacrificii quod per Symbol● Panis & Vini peragitur , ●●c V●teres prae se non ●erebant . Isa. Casaub. Exe●cit . 16. ad Annal. Baron . §. 43 ▪ p. 560. Commemorative Sacrifice of Christs Death represented in Bread broken , and Wine poured out . Another by the * * In the Liturgie of the Church of England we pray to God immediately after the reception of the Sacrament , That he would be pleased to accept this our Sacrifice of Praise and Thanksgiving , &c. And Heb. 13. 15. The Sacrifice Propitiatory was made by Christ himself onely , but the Sacrifice Commemorative and Gratulatory is made by the Priest and the People . Archbishop Cranmer in his Answer to Bishop Gardner , L. 5. p. 377. Priest and the People , joyntly ; and that is the Sacrifice of Praise and Thanksgiving , for all the Benefits and Graces we receive by the precious death of Christ . The Third , † † I beseech you Brethren by the mercies of God , that you give up your Bodies a living Sacrifice , holy , and acceptable unto God , Rom. 12. 1. We of●er , and present unto thee , O Lord , our selves , our souls and bodies , to be a reasonable , holy , and living Sacrifice unto thee . So the Church of England ▪ in the Prayer after the receiving of the Blessed Sacrament . by every particular man for himself onely ; and that is the Sacrifice of every mans Body , and Soul , to serve him in both , all the rest of his life , for this blessing thus bestowed on him . Now thus far these dissenting Churches agree , that in the Eucharist , there is a Sacrifice of Duty , and a Sacrifice of Praise , and a Sacrifice of Commemoration of Christ . Therefore according to the former Rule , ( and here in truth too ) 't is safest for a man to believe the Commemorative , the the Praising , and the Performing Sacrifice , and to offer them duely to God , and leave the Church of Rome in this Particular to her Superstitions , that I may say no more . And would the Church of Rome stand to A. C's Rule , and believe dissenting Parties where they agree , were it but in this , and that before , of the Real presence , it would work far toward the Peace of Christendom . But the Truth is , They pretend the Peace of Christendom , but care no more for it , than as it may uphold at least , if not increase their own Greatness .

My fourth Instance shall be in the Sacrament of Baptism , and Punct. 4. the things required as necessary to make it effectual to the Receiver . They in the common received Doctrine of the Church of Rome are three . The Matter , the Form ; and the Intention of the Priest , to do that which the Church doth , and intends he should do . Now all other Divines , as well ancient as modern , and both the dissenting Churches also , agree in the two former ; but many deny that the Intention of the Priest is necessary . Will A. C. hold his Rule , That 't is safest to believe in a controverted Point of Faith that which the dissenting Parties agree on , or which the Adverse Part Confesses ? If he will not , then why should he press that , as a Rule to direct others , which he will not be guided by himself ? And if he will , then he must go professedly against the * * Concil. Trid. Sess. 7. Can. 11. Councel of Trent , which hath determined it as deside , as a Point of Faith , that the Intention of the Priest is necessary to make the Baptism true and valid . Though in the ‖ ‖ Hist. Concil. Trid. L. 2. p. 277 Edit. Lat. Leyda , 1622. History of that Councel , 't is most apparent the Bishops and other Divines there could not tell what to answer to the Bishop of Minors , a Neapolitane , who declared his Judgement openly against it , in the face of that Councel .

My fifth Instance is : We say , and can easily prove there Punct. 5. are divers Errours , and some gross ones , in the Roman Missal . But I my self have heard some Jesuites confess , that in the Liturgie of the Church of England there 's no positive Errour . And being pressed , why then they refused to come to our Churches , and serve God with us ? They answered , they could not do it , Because though our Liturgie had in it nothing ill , yet it wanted a great deal of that which was good , and was in their Service . Now here let A. C. consider again , Here is a plain Concession of the adverse Part : And both agree , there 's nothing in our Service , but that which is holy and good . What will the Jesuite or A. C. say to this ? If he forsake his ground , then it is not safest in point of Divine Worship to joyn in Faith as the dissenting Parties agree , or to stand to the Adversaries own Confession . If he be so hardy as to maintain it , then the English Liturgy is better , and safer to worship God by , than the Roman Mass. Which yet , I presume A. C. will not confess .

Num. 8 In all these Instances ( the Matter so falling out of it self , for the Argument enforces it not ) the thing is true ; but not therefore true , because the dissenting Parties agree in it , or because the adverse Part Confesses it . Yet lest the Jesuite , or A. C. for him , farther to deceive the weak , should infer that this Rule in so many Instances is true , and false in none , but that one concerning Baptism among the Donatists , and therefore the Argument is true ut plerumque , as for the most , and that therefore 't is the safest way to believe that which dissenting Parties agree on ; I will lay down some other Particulars of as great Consequence , as any can be in , or about Christian Religion . And if in them A. C. or any Jesuite dare say , that 't is safest to believe as the dissenting Parties agree , or as the adverse Party confesses , I dare say he shall be an Heretick in the highest degree , if not an Insidel .

And First , where the Question was betwixt the Orthodox , Punct. 1. and the Arrian , whether the Son of God were consubstantial with the Father . The Orthodox said he was 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 of the same substance . The Arrian came within in a Letter of the Truth , and said he was 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 of like substance . Now he that says , he is of the same substance , confesses he is of like substance , and more , that is , Identity of Substance ; for Identity contains in it all Degrees of likeness , and more . But he that acknowledges , and believes that He is of like nature , and no more , denies the Identity : Therefore if this Rule be true , That it is safest to believe that , in which the dissenting Parties agree , or which the Adverse Part Confesses , ( which A. C. makes such great A. C. p. 64 , 65. vaunt of ) then 't is safest for a Christian to believe that Christ is of like nature with God the Father , and be free from Belief , that He is Consubstantial with him ; which yet is Concluded by the * * Concil. Nicen. Fides vel Symbolum in fine Concil. Councel of Nice as necessary to Salvation , and the Contrary Condemned for Damnable Heresie .

Secondly , in the Question about the Resurrection , between Punct. 2. the Orthodox , and diverse ●ross † † Saturninus , Basilides , Carpocrates , Cerinthus , Valentinus , Cerdon , Appelles , &c. Tertull. de praescript . advers. Haer●t . c. 46 , 48 , 49 , 51 , &c. Hereticks of old , and the Anabaptists and Libertines of late . For all , or most of these dissenting Parties agree , that there ought to be a Resurrection from sin to a state of Grace , and that this Resurrection only is meant in divers Passages of holy Scripture , together with the Life of the Soul , which they are content to say is Immortal . But * * Libertini rident ●●em omnem quam de Resurrectione habemus , idque jam nobis even●sse dicunt , quod adhuc expectamus , &c. ut Homo sciat Animam suam Spiritum 〈◊〉 esse perpetu● viventem in Coelis , &c. Calv. instructione advers. Libertinos , c. 22. prin● . Sunt etiam hodie Libertini qui eam irrident , & Resurrectionem quae tractatur in Scripturis , tantùm ad Animas referunt . Pet. Mart. Loc. Com. Class . 3. Ca. 15. Nu. 4. they utterly deny any Resurrection of the Body after Death : So with them that Article of the Creed is gone . Now then if any man will guide his Faith by this Rule of A. C. The Consent of dissenting Parties , or the Confession of the Adverse Part , he must deny the Resurrection of the Body from the Grave to Glory , and believe none but that of the Soul , from sin to Grace , which the Adversaries Confess , and in which the Dissenting Parties agree .

Thirdly , in the great Dispute of all others , about the Unity Punct. 3. of the Godhead . All dissenting Parties , Jew , Turk , and Christian : Among Christians Orthodox , and Anti-Trinitarian of old : And in these later times , Orthodox and Socinian ( that Horrid and mighty Monster of all Heresies ) agree in this , That there is but one God . And I hope it is as necessary to believe one God our Father , as one Church our Mother . Now will A. C. say here , 't is safest believing as the dissenting Parties agree , or as the Adverse Parties Confess , namely , That there is but one God , and so deny the Trinity , and therewith the Son of God the Saviour of the world ?

Fourthly , in a Point as Fundamental in the Faith , as this , Punct. 4. Namely , whether Christ be true and very God . For which very Point , most of the † † Hebr. 11. 37. Cyrillus Alexandrinus malè audivit , quod Ammonium Martyrem appellavit , quem constitit te●eritatis poenas dedisse , & non Necessitate negandi Christi in tormentis esse mortuum . Socr. Hist. Eccl. L. 7. c. 14. Martyrs in the Primitive Church laid down their lives . The dissenting Parties here were the Orthodox Believers , who affirm He is both God and Man ; for so our Creed teaches us : And all those Hereticks , which affirm Christ to be Man , but deny him to be God , as the b b Optatus L. 4. Cont. Parmen. Arrians , and c c Tertul. L. de Praescrip. c. 48. Carpocratians , and d d Tertul. Ibid. Cerinthus , and e e Tertul. L. de Carne Christi , c. 14. Hebion , with others : and at this day the f f Si ad Jesu Christi respicias Essentiam atque Naturam , non nisi Hominem eum fuisse constantèr affirmamus . Volkelius , Lib. 3. de Religione Christianâ , cap. 1. Socinians . These dissenting Parties agree fully and clearly , That Christ is Man . Well then . Dare A. C. stick to his Rule here , and say , 't is safest for a Christian in this great Point of Faith to govern his Belief by the Consent of these dissenting Parties , or the Confession and acknowledgment of the Adverse Party , and so settle his Belief , that Christ is a meer Man , and not God ? I hope he dares not . So then , this Rule , To Resolve a mans Faith into that , in which the Dissenting Parties agree , or which the Adverse Part confesses , is as often false , as true . And false in as Great , if not Greater Matters , than those , in which it is true . And where 't is true , A. C. and his fellows dare not govern themselves by it , the Church of Rome condemning those things which that Rule proves . And yet while they talk of Certainty , nay of Infallibility , ( less will not serve their turns ) they are driven to make use of such poor shifts as these , which have no certainty at all of Truth in them , but infer falshood and Truth alike . And yet for this also men will be so weak , or so wilful , as to be seduced by them .

Num. 9 I told you * * §. 35. Nu. 2. fine . before , That the force of the preceding Argument lies upon two things . The one expressed , and that 's past ; the other upon the Bye , which comes now to be handled . And that is your continual poor Out-cry against us , That we cannot be saved , because we are out of the Church . Sure if I thought I were out , I would get in as fast as I could . For we confess as well as you , That † † Extra Ecclesiam neminem Vivificat Spiritus Sanctus . S. Aug. Epist. 50. ad finem . Field . L. 1. de Eccles. c. 13. una est Fidelium Universalis Ecclesia , extra quam nullus salvatur . Conc. Lateran . Can. 1. And yet even there , there 's no mention of the Roman Church . Out of the Catholike Church of Christ there is no Salvation . But what do you mean by Out of the Church ? Sure out of the ‖ ‖ And so doth A. C. too : Out of the Catholike Roman Church there is no Possibility of Salvation . A. C. p. 65. Roman Church . Why but the Roman Church and the Church of England are but two distinct Members of that Catholike Church which is spread over the face of the Earth . Therefore Rome is not the House where the Church dwels , but Rome it self , as well as other particular Churches , dwels in this great Universal House ; unless you will shut up the Church in Rome , as the Donatists did in Africk . I come a little lower . Rome and other National Churches are in this Universal Catholike House as so many * * And Daughter Sion was Gods own phrase of old of the Church , Isa. 1. 8. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Hyppol . Orat. de Consum . mundi . Et omnis Ecclesia Virgo appellata est . S. Aug. Tr. 13. in S. Joh. Daughters , to whom ( under Christ ) the care of the Houshold is committed by God the Father , and the Catholike Church the Mother of all Christians . Rome , as an Elder Sister , † † For Christ was to be preached to all Nations , but that Preaching was to begin at Jerusalem , S. Luc. 24. 47. according to the Prophesie , Mic. 4. 2. And the Disciples were first called Christians at Antioch , Acts 11. 26. And therefore there was a Church there , before ever S. Peter came thence to settle One at Rome . Nor is it an Opinion destitute either of Authority , or Probability , That the Faith of Christ was preached , and the Sacraments administred here in England , before any settlement of a Church in Rome . For S. Gildas the Ancientest monument we have , and whom the Romanists themselves reverence , says expresly , That the Religion of Christ was received in Brittany , Tempore ( ut scimus ) summo Tiberii Caesaris , &c. In the latter time of Tiberius Caesar. Gildas de excid . Brit. whereas S. Peter kept in Jewry long after Tiberius his death . Therefore the first Conversion of this Island to the Faith , was not by S. Peter . Nor from Rome , which was then a Church . Against this Rich. Broughton in his Ecclesiastical History of Great Britain , Centur. 1. C. 8. §. 4. says expresly : That the Protestants do freely acknowledge , that this Clause of the time of Tiberius ( tempore summo Tiberii Caesaris ) is wanting in other Copies of that holy Writer , and namely in that which was set forth by Pol. Virgil , and others . Whereas first these words are express in a most fair , and ancient Manuscript of Gildas to be seen in Sir Rob. Cotton's Study , if any doubt it . Secondly , these words are as express in the printed Edition of Gildas by Polyd. Virg. which Edition was printed at London , An. 1525. and was never reprinted since . Thridly , these words are as express in the Edition of Gildas , by Jo. Joselin . printed at London also , An. 1568. And this falshood of Broughton is so much the more foul , because he boasts ( Praefat. to his Reader , fine . ) That he hath seen , and diligently perused the most , and best Monuments and Antiquities extant , &c. For if he did not see and peruse these , he is vainly false to say it : if he did see them , he is most maliciously false to belie them . And Lastly , whereas he says : The Protestants themselves confess so much , I must believe he is as false in this as in the former , till he name the Protestants to me , which do confess it . And when he doth , he shall gain but this from me , That those Protestants which confessed it , were mistaken . For the thing is mistaken . but not the Eldest neither , had a great Care committed unto her , in , and from the prime times of the Church , and to her Bishop in her : but at this time ( to let pass many brawls that have formerly been in the House ) England , and some other Sisters of hers are fallen out in the Family . What then ? Will the Father , and the Mother , God , and the Church , cast one Childe out , because another is angry with it ? Or when did Christ give that power to an Elder Sister , that She , and her Steward , the Bishop there , should thrust out what Childe she pleased ? Especially when she her self is justly accused to have given the Offence that is taken in the House ? Or will not both Father , and Mother be sharper to Her for this unjust and unnatural usage of her younger Sisters , but their dear Children ? Nay , is it not the next way to make them turn her out of doors , that is so unnatural to the rest ? It is well for all Christian Men and Churches , that the Father and Mother of them are not so curst as some would have them . And Salvation need not be feared of any dutiful Childe , nor Outing from the Church , because this Elder Sisters faults are discovered in the House , and she grown froward for it against them that complained . But as Children cry when they are waked out of sleep , so do you , and wrangle with all that come neer you . And * * Return of Untruths upon M. Jewel . Art. 4. Untruth 105. Stapleton confesses , That ye were in a dead sleep , and over-much rest , when the Protestants stole upon you . Now if you can prove that Rome is properly The † † For I am sure there is a Roman Church , that is but a Particular . B●llarm . L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. And then you must either shew me another Roman Church , which is The Catholike : Or you must shew how One and the same Roman Church is in different Respects or Relations A Particular , and yet The Catholike . Which is not yet done . And I do not say , A Particular , and yet A Catholike ; But A Particular , and yet The Catholike Church : For so you speak . For that which Card. Peron hath , That the Roman Church is the Catholike Causally , because it insuses Universality into all the whole Body of the Catholike Church , can , I think , satisfie no man that reads it . That a Particular should infuse Universality into an Universal . Peron . L. 4. of his Reply . c. 9. Catholick Church it self ( as you commonly call it ) speak out and prove it . In the mean time , you may Mark this too , if you will , and it seems you do ; for here you forget not what the Bishop said to you .

The Lady which doubted ( said the Bishop to me ) may be better saved in it , than you .

§ . 36 I said so indeed . Mark that too . Where yet by the way , these words ( Than you ) do not suppose Person only . For I will Judge * * Rom. 14. 4. no man , that hath another Master to stand or fall to . But they suppose Calling and Sufficiency in the Person . Than you , that is , Than any man of your Calling and Knowledge , of whom more is required . And then no question of the truth of this speech , That that person may better be saved ( that is , easier ) than you , than any man that knows so much of Truth , and opposes against it , as you , and others of your Calling do . How far you know Truth , other men may judge by your Proofs , and Causes of Knowledge ; but how far you oppose Truth known to you , that is within , and no man can know , but God and your selves . Howsoever , where the Foundation is but held , there for * *

Caeteram turbam non intelligendi vivacitas , sed Credendi simplicitas tutissini●● f●ti● . S. Aug. Cont. Fund . c. 4. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Naz. Orat. 21.

Omission of Inquiry many times saves the people .

ordinary men , it is not the vivacity of Understanding , but the simplicity of Believing , that makes them safe . For S. Augustine speaks there , of men in the Church ; and no † †

Hereticks in respect of the Profession of sundry Divine Verities which they still retain in common with right Believers , &c. do still pertain to the Church . Field , L. 1. de Eccles. c. 14. Potest aliquis Ecclesia membrum esse secundum quid , qui tamen simpliciter non est . Haereticus recedens à Fide , non dimittitur ut Pagani●● , sed propter Baptismi Characterem , punitur ut transfuga , & Excommunicationis gladio spiritualitèr occiditur . Stapl. Controv. 1. q. 2. A. 3. Notabil . 3.

The Apostle pronounces some gone out , S. Joh. 2. 19. from the fellowship of sound Believers , when as yet the Christian Religion they had not utterly cast off . In like sense and meaning , throughout all Ages , Hereticks have justly been hated , as branches cut off from the true Vine , yet only so far forth cut off , as the Heresies have extended . For both Heresie , and many other Crimes which wholly sever from God , do sever from the Church of God , but in part only . Hooker , L. 5. Eccles. Pol. § 68.

man can be said simply to be Out of the Visible Church , that is Baptized , and holds the Foundation . And as it is the simplicity of Believing , that makes them safe , yea safest : so is it sometimes , A quickness of Understanding , that loving it self , and some by-respects too well , makes men take up an unsafe way about the Faith . So that there 's no Question , but many were saved in corrupted times of the Church , when their ‖ ‖

Ipsis Magistris pereuatibus : nisi fortè ante mortem resipuerint . Luth. de Serv. Arbit .

H●resiarche pl●s peccant , quàm alii qui Heresin aliquam secuti . Supplem . Tho. q. 99. A. 4. c.

Leaders , unless they repented before death , were lost . And * * Si mihi videretur u●●s & idem Haereticus , & Haereticis credens homo , &c. S. Aug. L. 1. de util. Cred. c. 1. Et Epist. 162. ad Donatist . Episc. S. Augustine's Rule will be true , That in all Corruptions of the Church , there will ever be a difference between an Heretick , and a plain well-meaning man that is misled , and believes an Heretick . Yet here let me adde this for fuller Expression : This must be understood of such Leaders and Hereticks as † † S. Mat. 18. 17. Qui oppugnaut Regulam Veritatis . S. Aug L. de Haeresibus : versus sinem . refuse to hear the Churches Instruction , or to use all the means they can , to come to the knowledge of the Truth . For else , if they do this , Erre they may , but Hereticks they are not , as is most manifest in ‖ ‖ Cypria●us Reatus , & Martyr . S. Aug. L. 1. de Bapt. cont. Do●at . c. 18. S. Cyprian's Case of Rebaptization . For here , though he were a main Leader in that Errour , yet all the whole Church grant him safe ; and his * * Donatistae verè ( qui de Cypriani Authoritate sibi carnaliter blandiuntur , S. Aug. L. 1. de Bapt. cont. Donat. c. 18. ) nimium miseri , & , nisi se corrigant , à semetipsis omninò damnati , qui hoc in tanto viro eligunt imitari . Ibid. c. 19. Followers in danger of damnation . But if any man be a Leader , and a Teaching Heretick , and will adde † † Rei falsitatis ( circa accusatum Caeci●ia●um ) deprchensi Donatistae , pertinaci dissentione firmatâ , Schisma in Haeresi● verterunt . S. Aug. L. de Haeres . Haer. 69. Et Tales , sub Vocabulo Christiano doctrinae resistunt Christian● . S. Aug. L. 18. de Civ . Dei . c. 〈◊〉 . prin. Schism to Heresie , and be obstinate in both , he without Repentance must needs be lost , while many that succeed him in the Errour onely , without the Obstinacy , may be saved . For , they which are misled , and swayed with the Current of Time , hold the same Errours with their Misleaders , yet not supinely , but with all sober diligence to finde out the Truth : Not pertinaciously , but with all readiness to submit to Truth , so soon as it shall be found : Not uncharitably , but retaining an internal Communion with the Whole Visible Church of Christ in the Fundamental Points of Faith , and performance of acts of Charity , not facticusly , but with an earnest desire , and a sincere endeavour ( as their Place and Calling gives them means ) for a perfect Union , and Communion of all Christians in Truth , as well as Peace . I say these , however misled , are neither Hereticks , nor Schismaticks in the sight of God , and are therefore in a state of Salvation . And were not this true Divinity , it would go very hard with many poor Christian souls , that have been , and are misled on all sides in these and other Distracted times of the Church of Christ ; Whereas thus habituated in themselves , they are , by God's mercy , safe in the midst of those waves , in which their Misleaders perish . I pray you Mark this , and so , by God's Grace , will I. For our * * Qui et●i ips● postmodum ad Ecclesiam red●unt , restituere tamen eos , & secum rev●care non possunt , qui ab iis sedu●●i sunt , & foris morte praeventi extra Ecclesiam sine Communicatione & Pace per●erunt , quorum Anima in die Indicii de ipsorum manibus expetentur , qui perditionis Authores , & duces extiterunt . S. Cypr. ● ▪ 2. Epist. 1. Reckoning will be heavier , if we thus mislead on either side , than theirs that follow us . But I see I must look to my self ; for you are secure : For ,

D. White ( said I ) hath secured me , that none of our Errours be damnable , so long as we hold them not against our Conscience . And I hold none against my Conscience .

§ . 37 Num. 1 It seems then you have two Securities : D. White 's Assertion , and your Conscience . What Assurance D. White gave you , I cannot tell of my self ; nor , as things stand , may I rest upon your Relation . It may be you use him no better than you do me . And sure it is so . For I have since spoken with D. White the late Reverend Bishop of Ely , and he avows this , and no other Answer . He was asked in the Conference between you , Whether Popish Errours were Fundamental ? To this he gave an Answer , by distinction of the Persons which held and professed the Errours : Namely , that the Errours were Fundamental reductivè , by a Reducement , if they which embraced them did pertinaciously adhere to them , having sufficient means to be better informed : Nay farther , that they were materially , and in the very Kinde and Nature of them , Leaven , Dross , † † 1 Cor. 3. 12. Hay , and Stubble . Yet he thought withal , that such as were misled by Education , or long Custom , or over-valuing the Soveraignty of the Romane Church , and did in simplicity of heart embrace them , might by their general Repentance , and Faith in the Merit of Christ , attended with Charity , and other Vertues , finde mercy at God's hands . But that he should say signantèr , and expresly , That none either of yours , or your Fellows Errours were damnable , so long as you hold them not against Conscience , that he utterly disavows . You delivered nothing to extort such a Confession from him . And for your self , he could observe but small love of Truth , few signes of Grace in you ( as he told me : ) Yet he will not presume to judge you , or your Salvation ; It is the * * S. Joh. 12. 48 Word of Christ that must judge you at the later day . For your Conscience , you are the happier in your Errour , that you hold nothing against it , especially if you speak not against it , while you say so . But this no man can know , but your self : † † 1 Cor. 2. 11. For no man knows the thoughts of a man , but the spirit of a man that is within him ; to which I leave you .

Num. 2 To this A. C. replies . And first he grants , that D. White did A. C. p. 67. not signanter and expresly say these precise words . So then here 's his plain Confession : Not these precise words . Secondly he saith , that neither did D. White signantèr and expresly make the Answer above mentioned . But to this I can make no Answer , since I was not present at the first or second Conference . Thirdly , he saith , that the Reason which moved the Jesuite to say D. White had secured him , was because the said Doctor had granted in his first Conference with the Jesuite these things following . First , That there must be one or other Church continually visible . Though D. White , late Bishop of Ely , was more able to Answer for himself ; yet since he is now dead , and is thus drawn into this Discourse , I shall , as well as I can , do him the right , which his Learning , and Pains for the Church deserved . And to this first , I grant as well as he , That there must be some one Church or other continually visible : Or that the Militant Church of Christ must always be visible in some Particulars , or Particular at least ( express it as you please . ) For if this be not so , then there may be a time in which there shall not any where be a Visible Profession of the Name of Christ ; which is contrary to the whole scope and promise of the Gospel .

Num. 3 Well . What then ? Why then A. C. addes , That D. White A. C. p. 67. confessed that this Visible Church had in all Ages taught that unchanged Faith of Christ in all Points Fundamental . D. White had reason to say that the Visible Church taught so ; but that this or that particular Visible Church did so teach , sure D. White affirmed not ; unless in case the whole Visible Church of Christ were reduced to one Particular onely .

Num. 4 But suppose this . What then ? Why then A. C. tells us , that A. C. p. 67. D. White being urged to assigne such a Church , expresly granted he could assigne one different from the Romane , which held in all Ages all points Fundamental . Now here I would fain know what A. C. means by a Church different from the Romane . For if he mean different in place ; 'T is easie to affirm the Greek Church ( which as hath † † §. 9. before been proved ) hath ever held , and taught the Foundation in the midst of all her Pressures . And if he mean different in Doctrinal things , and those about the Faith , he cannot assigne the Church of Rome for holding them in all Ages . But if he mean different in the Foundation it self , the Creed ; then his urging to assigne a Church , is void , be it Rome , or any other . For if any other Church shall thus differ from Rome , or Rome from it self , as to deny this Foundation , it doth not , it cannot remain a Differing Church , sed transit in Non Ecclesiam , but passes away into No Church , upon the Denial of the Creed .

Num. 5 Now what A. C. means , he expresses not , nor can I tell ; but I may peradventure guess near it , by that which out of these Premises he would infer . For hence he tells us , He gathered that D. A. C. p. 67. White 's Opinion was , That the Romane Church held and taught in all Ages unchanged Faith in all Fundamental points , and did not in any Age erre in any Point Fundamental . This is very well . For A. C. confesses , he did but gather , that this was Doctor White 's Opinion . And what if he gathered that , which grew not there , nor thence ? For suppose all the Premises true , yet no Cartrope can draw this Conclusion out of them . And then all A. C's labour 's lost . For grant some one Church or other must still be Visible : And grant that this Visible Church held all Fundamentals of the Faith in all Ages . And grant again , that D. White could not assigne any Church differing from the Romane , that did this ; Yet this will not follow , that therefore the Romane did it . And that because there 's more in the Conclusion , than in the Premises . For A. C's Conclusion is , That in D. White 's Opinion A. C. p. 67. the Roman Church held and taught in all Ages unchanged Faith in all Fundamental points . And so far perhaps the Conclusion may stand , taking Fundamental points in their literal sense , as they are expressed in Creeds , and approved Councels . But then he addes : And did not in any Age erre in any Point Fundamental . Now this can never follow out of the Premises before laid down . For say some one Church or other may still be Visible ; And that Visible Church hold all Fundamental Points in all Ages ; And no man be able to name another Church different from the Church of Rome , that hath done this ; yet it follows not therefore , That the Church of Rome did not erre in any Age in any Point Fundamental . For a Church may hold the Fundamental Point literally , and as long as it stays there , be without control ; and yet erre grosly , dangerously , nay damnably in the Exposition of it . And this is the Church of Rome's Case . For most true it is , it hath in all Ages maintained the Faith unchanged in the Expression of the Articles themselves ; but it hath in the Exposition both of Creeds , and Councels , quite changed , and lost the sense , and the meaning of some of them . So the Faith is in many things Changed both for Life and Belief , and yet seems the same . Now that which deceives the World , is , That because the Bark is the same , men think this Old Decayed Tree , is as Sound as it was at first , and not Weather-beaten in any Age. But when they can make me believe that Painting is true Beauty , I 'll believe too , that Rome is not only sound , but beautiful .

Num. 6 But A. C. goes on and tells us , That hereupon the Jesuite asked , A. C. p. 67. whether Errours in Points not Fundamental were damnable ? And that D. White answered , they were not , unless they were held against Conscience . 'T is true , that Errour in Points not Fundamental is the more damnable , the more it is held against Conscience : But it is true too , that Errour in Points not Fundamental may be damnable to some men , though they hold it not against their Conscience . As namely , when they hold an Errour in some Dangerous Points , which grate upon the Foundation , and yet will neither seek the means to know the Truth , nor accept and believe Truth when 't is known , especially being men able to Judge ; which I fear , is the case of too many at this day in the Roman Church . Out of all which A. C. tells us , The A. C. p. 68. Jesuite collected , that D. White 's Opinion was , That the Roman Church held all Points Fundamental , and only erred in Points not Fundamental , which he accounted not damnable so long as he did not hold them against his Conscience ; And that thereupon he said D. White had secured him , since he held no Faith different from the Roman , nor contrary to his Conscience . Here again , we have but A. C's and the Jesuites Collection : But if the Jesuite , or A. C. will collect amiss , who can help it ?

Num. 7 I have spoken before in this very Paragraph to all the Passages of A. C. as supposing them true : and set down what is to be answered to them , in case they prove so . But now 't is most apparent by Dr. White 's Answer , set down before † † §. 37. N. 1. at large , that he never said , that the Church of Rome erred only in Points not Fundamental , as A. C. would have it . But that he said the contrary , Namely , that some errours of thy Church were Fundamental reductivè , by a reducement , if they which embraced them , did pertinaciously adhere to them , having sufficient means of information . And again expresly , That he did not say , that none were damnable , so long as they were not held against Conscience . Now where is A. C's Collection ? For if a Jesuite , or any other may collect Propositions , which are not granted him ; nay , contrary to those which are granted him , he may infer what he please . And he is much to blame , that will not infer a strong Conclusion for himself , that may frame his own Premises , say his Adversary what he will . And just so doth A. C. bring in his Conclusion , to secure himself of salvation , because he holds no Faith but the Romane , nor that Contrary to his Conscience : Presupposing it granted , that the Church of Rome errs only in not Fundamentals , and such Errours not Damnable , which is absolutely and clearly denied by D. White . To this A. C. says A. C. p. 67. nothing , but that D. White did not give this Answer at the Conference . I was not present at the Conference between them , so , to that I can say nothing as a witness . But I think all that knew D. White , will believe his affirmation as soon as the Jesuites ; To say no more . And whereas A. C. refers to the Relation A. C. p. 67. of the Conference between D. White and M. Fisher , most true it is , there * * A. C. in his relation of that Conference , p. 26. D. White is charged to have made that Answer twice . But all this rests upon the credit of A. C. only ( For † † For so 't is said in the Title-page , by A. C. he is said to have made that Relation too , as well as this ▪ ) And against his Credit I must engage D. Whites , who hath avowed another Answer , as ‖ ‖ §. 37. N. 1. before is set down .

Num. 8 And since A. C. relates to that Conference , which it seems he makes some good account of , I shall here once for all take occasion to assure the Reader , That most of the Points of Moment in that Conference with D. White , are repeated again and again , and urged in this Conference , or the Relation of A. C. and are here answered by me . For Instance : In the Relation of the first Conference , the Jesuite takes on him to prove the Unwritten (1) Word of God out of 2 Thes. 2. pag. 15. And so he doth in the Relation of this Conference with me , pag. 50. In the first he (2) stands upon it , That the Protestants upon their Principles cannot hold , That all Fundamental points of Faith are contained in the Creed , pag. 19. And so he doth in this , pag. 46. In the first , he would fain through Master (3) Roger's sides wound the Church of England , as if she were unsetled in the Article of Christs Descent into Hell , pag. 21. And he endeavours the same in this , pag. 46. In the first he is very earnest to prove , That the Schism was made by the Protestants , (4) pag. 23. And he is as earnest for it in this , pag. 55. In the first he lays it ▪ for a Ground , That Corruption of Manners (5) is no just Cause of separation from Faith , or Church , pag. 24. And the same Ground he lays in this , pag. 55. In the first he will (6) have it , That the Holy Ghost gives continual , and Infallible Assistance to the Church , pag. 24. And just so will he have it in this , pag. 53. In the first he makes much adoe about the Erring of (7) the Greek Church , pag. 28. And as much makes he in this , pag. (8) 44. In the first , he makes a great noyse about the place in St. Augustine , Ferendus est disputator errans , &c. pag. 18. and 24. And so doth he here also , pag. 45. In the first , he would make his Proselytes believe , That he and his Cause have mighty advantage (9) by that Sentence of S. Bernard , 'T is intolerable Pride : And that of S. Augustine , 'T is insolent madness to oppose the Doctrine , or Practice of the Catholike Church , pag. 25. And twice ( 10 ) he is at the same Art in this , pag. 56. and 73. In the first , he tells us , That * * Postquam discessionem à toto mundo facere coact● sumus . Calv. Epist. 141. Calvin confesses , That in the Reformation , there was a Departure from the whole world , pag. 25. And though I conceive Calvine spake this but of the Roman world , and of no Voluntary , but a forced Departure , and wrote this to Melancthon , to work Unity among the Reformers , not any way to blast the Reformation : Yet we must hear of it again in this , pag. 56. But over and above the rest , one Place with his own ( 11 ) gloss upon it pleases him extreamly , 'T is out of S. Athanasius his Creed . That whosoever doth not hold it entire , that is , ( saith he ) in all Points : and Inviolate , that is , ( saith he ) in the true unchanged , and uncorrupted sense proposed unto us by the Pastors of his Catholike Church , without doubt he shall perish everlastingly . This he hath almost verbatim in the first , page 20. And in the Epistle of the Publisher of that Relation to the Reader , under the Name of W. I. and then agian the very same in this , if not with some more disadvantage to himself , page 70. And perhaps ( had I leasure to search after them ) more Points than these . Now the Reasons which moved me to set down these Particulars thus distinctly , are two . The One , that whereas the * * In the beginning of the Conference set out by A. C. Jesuite affirms , that in a second Conference all the speech was about Particular matters , and little or nothing about the main , and great general Point of a Continual , Infallible , Visible Church , in which that Lady required satisfaction , and that therefore this third Conference was held ; It may hereby appear that the most material , both Points , and Proofs are upon the matter the very same in all the three Conferences , though little be related of the second Conference by A. C. as appears in the Preface of the Publisher W. I. to the Reader . So this tends to nothing but Ostentation , and shew . The Other is , that Whereas these men boast so much of their Cause and their Ability to defend it ; It cannot but appear by this , and their handling of other Points in Divinity , that they labour indeed , but no otherwise , then like an Horse in a Mill ; round about in the same Circle ; no farther at night then at noon ; The same thing over and over again ; from Tu es Petrus , to Pasce oves ; from thou art Peter , to Do thou feed my Sheep ; And back again the same way .

The Lady asked , Whether she might be saved in the Protestant Faith ? Upon my soul ( said the Bishop ) you may . Upon my soul ( said I , ) there is but one saving Faith , and that is the Roman .

§ . 38 Num. 1 So ( it seems ) I was consident for the Faith professed in the Church of England , else I would not have taken the salvation of another upon my soul. And sure I had reason of this my Confidence . For to believe the Scripture , and the Creeds ; to believe these in the sense of the Ancient Primitive Church ; To receive the four great General Councels , so much magnified by Antiquity ; To believe all Points of Doctrine , generally received as Fundamental in the Church of Christ , is a Faith , in which to live and die , cannot but give salvation . And therefore I went upon a sure ground in the adventure of my soul upon that Faith . Besides , in all the Points of Doctrine that are controverted between us , I would fain see any one Point maintained by the Church of England , that can be proved to depart from the Foundation . You have many dangerous Errours about the very Foundation , in that which you call the Roman Faith : But there I leave you to look to your own soul , and theirs whom you seduce . Yet this is true too , That there is but one saving Faith . But then every thing which you call De Fide , of the Faith , because some Councel or other hath defined it , is not such a Breach from that One saving Faith , as that he which expresly believes it not ; nay , as that he which believes the Contrary , is excluded from Salvation , so his * * §. 32. Nu. 5. Disobedience therewhile offer no violence to the Peace of the Church , nor the Charity , which ought to be among Christians . And † † Multa sunt de fide , quae non sunt absolutè necessaria ad Salutem . Bellarm. L. 3. de Eccles. Milit. c. 14. §. Quinto , si esset . Bellarmine is forced to grant this , There are many things de Fide , which are not absolutely necessary to salvation . ‖ ‖ Wald. Doct. Fid. l. 2. A● . 2. §. 23. Therefore there is a Latitude in the Faith , especially in reference to different mens salvation . To set * * §. 38. Nu. 8. Bounds to this , and strictly to define it for particular men , Just thus far you must believe in every Particular , or incur Damnation , is no work for my Pen. These two things I am sure of . One , That your peremptory establishing of so many things , that are remote Deductions from the Foundation , to be believed as Matters of Faith necessary to Salvation , hath , with other Errours , lost the Peace and Unity of the Church , for which you will one day Answer . And the other , That you of Rome are gone farther from the Foundation of this One saving Faith , than can ever be proved , we of the Church of England have done .

Num. 2 But here A. C. bestirs himself , finding that he is come upon the Point , which is indeed most considerable . And first he A. C. p. 68. answers , That it is * * Pope Pelagius the second thought it was sufficient . For when the Bishop of Is●ria deserted his Communion in Causa trium Capitulorum : He first gives them an Account of his Faith , that he embraced that Faith , which the Apostles had delivered , and the four Synods explicated . And then he adds : Ubi c●go de Fidei firmitate nulla vobis poterit questio , vel suspicio generari , &c. Concil. ●o . 4 p. 473. Edit. Paris . So then , that Pop● thought there could be no question made , or suspition had of any mans faith , that prosessed that Faith , which the Apostles delivered , as 't is explicated by those Great Councels . And yet now with A. C. 't is not sufficient . Or else he holds the Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ in such respect of persons ( contrary to the Apos●es Rule , S. James 2. 12. ) as that profession of it , which was sufficient for Pope Pelagius , shall not be sufficinet for the poor Protestants . not sufficient to beget a Confidence in this Case , to say we believe the Scriptures and the Creeds , in the same sense which the Ancient Primitive Church believed them , &c. Most true , if we onely say , and do not believe . And let them which believe not , while they say they do , look to it on all sides ; for on all sides I doubt not , but such there are . But if we do say it , you are bound in Charity to believe us , ( unless you can prove the Contrary ) For I know no other proof to men of any Point of Faith , but Confession of it , and Subscription to it . And for these particulars , we have made the one , and done the other . So 't is no bare saying , but you have all the proof that can be had , or that ever any Church required : For how far that Belief , or any other , sinks into a mans heart , is for none to judge but God .

Num. 3 Next , A. C. Answers , That if to say this be a sufficient A. C. p. 68. Cause of Considence , he marvels why I make such difficulty to be Confident of the Salvation of Romane Catholikes , who believe all this in a far better manner than Protestants do . Truly , to say this , is not a sufficient cause , but to say and believe it , is . And to take off A. C's wonder why I make difficulty , great difficulty of the salvation of Romane Catholikes , who , he says , believe all this , and in a far better manner than Protestants do ; I must be bold to tell him , That Romanists are so far from believing this in a better manner than we do , that , under favour , they believe not part of this at all . And this is most manifest : For the Romanists dare not believe , but as the Romane Church believes : And the Romane Church at this day doth not believe the Scripture and the Creeds in the sense , in the which the Ancient Primitive Church received them . For the Primitive Church never interpreted Christ's descent into Hell to be no lower than Limbus Patrum . Nor did it acknowledge a Purgatory in a side-part of Hell . Nor did it ever interpret away half the Sacrament from Christ's own Institution , which to break , † † St. apl . Return of Untruths upon B. Jewel Art. 2. Untruth 49. fol. 44. Stapleton confesses expresly , is a Damnable Errour ; Nor make the Intention of the Priest of the Essence of Baptism ; Nor believe Worship due to Images ; Nor dream of a Transubstantiation , which the Learned of the Romane party dare not understand properly , for a change of one substance into another , for then they must grant that Christ's real and true Body is made of the Bread , and the Bread changed into it ; which is properly Transubstantion . Nor yet can they express it in a credible way , as appears by * * Est totalis Conver sio substanti● Panis & Vini in Corpus & Sanguinem Domini . Bellar. L. 3. de Enchar . c. 18. § 1. Substantialis conversio , seu Transubstantio , sicut Ecclesia appellat . Greg. de Valen. Tom. 4. Disp. 6. q. 3. pu●ct . 3. Now you shall see what stuff Bellarmine makes of this . Con●ersio Panis in Corpus Domini , nec est Productiva , nec Conservativa , sed Adductiva . Nam Corpus Domini prae●xistit ante Conversionem , sed non sub speciebus Panis . Conversio igitur non facit , ●t Corpus Christi simplicitèr esse incipiat , sed ut incipiat esse sub speciebus Panis , &c. Bellarm. L. 3. de Euchar. c. 18. § Ex his colligimus . So upon the whole matter , there shall be a total Conversion of the Bread into the Body of Christ : And yet there shall be no conversion at all , but a bringing of the Body of Christ before pre-existent , to be now under the species of Bread , where before it was not . Now this is meerly Translocation , 't is not Transubstantiation . And I would have Bellarmine , or any Jesuite for him , shew where Conversio Adductiva is read in any good Author . But when Bellarmine comes to the Recognition of his Works , upon this place he tells us , That s●me excepted against him , as if this were Translocation , rather than Transubstantiation . So in this charge upon him I am not alone . And fain would he shift off this , but it will not be . But while he is at it , he runs into two petty Errours , beside the main one . The first is , That the Body of Christ in the Sacrament begins to be , non ut in loco , sed ut substantia sub Accidentibus . Now let Bellarmine , or A. C. for him , give me any one Instance , That a Bodily substance under Accidents , is , or can be any where , and not ●● in loco , as in some place , and he says somewhat . The second is , That some Fathers and others seem ( he says , but I see it not ) to approve of his manner of speech of Conversion by Addu●tum . And he tells us for this , that Bonaventure says expresly , In Transubstantiatione sit , ut quod erat alicubi , sine sui mu●at●one ●it alibi . Now first , here 's nothing that can be drawn with Cart-ropes to prove Conversion by Adduction . For if there be Conversion , there must be Change : And this is ●ine mutatione sui . And secondly , I would fain know , how a Body that is alicubi , shall be alibi , without change of it self , and yet that this shall be rather Transubstantiation than Translocation . Besides , 't is a Phrase of very ●owre Consequence ( should ● man squ●●●● it ) which Bellarmine uses there even in his Recognition ▪ Panis transit in Corpus Christi . Bellarmine's Struggle about it , which yet in the end cannot be , or be called Transubstantiation , and is that , which at this day is a * * A Scandal , and a grievous 〈◊〉 . For this gross Opinion was but Confirmed in the Councel of Lateran : It had got some footing in the Church , the two blinde Ages before . For Berengarius was made recant in such terms , as the Romanists are put to their shists to excuse . Bellar. L. 3. de Euchar. c. 24. § Quartum Argumentum . For hesays expresly : Corpus Christi posse in Sacramento sensuali●èr manibus Sacerdotum tract●ri , & frangi , & fidelium dentibus a●●●●i . Decr. par. 3. de Consecratione . Dist. 2. C. Ego Berengarius . Now this Recantation was made about the year 1050. And the Councel of Lateran was in the year 1215. Between this gross Recantation of Berengarius , and that Councel , the great Learned Physician and Philosopher Averroes lived , and took scandal at the whole Body of Christian Religion for this . And thus he saith : Mundum peragravi , &c. & non v●di Sectam deteriorem , aut magis fatuam Christianâ , quia Deum , quem colunt , dentibus devorant . Espencaus 1. 4. de Euchar. adoratione , c. 3. scandal to both Jew and Gentile , and the Church of God .

Num. 4 For all this , A. C. goes on , and tells us , That they ( of Rome ) A. C. p. 69. cannot be proved to depart from the Foundation so much as Protestants do . So then , We have at last a Confession here , that they may be proved to depart from the Foundation , though not so much , or so far as the Protestants do . I do not mean to Answer this , and prove that the Romanists do depart as far , or farther from the Foundation , than the Protestants ; for then A. C. would take me at the same lift , and say I granted a departure too . Briefly therefore , I have named here more Instances than one ; In some of which they have erred in the Foundation , or very neer it . But for the Church of England , let A. C. instance , if he can , in any one Point , in which She hath departed from the Foundation . Well , that A. C. will do : For he says , The Protestants erre against A. C. p. 69. the Foundation , by denying infallible Authority to a General Councel , for that is in effect to deny Infallibility to the whole Catholike Church . † † § 33. Consid. 4. Num. 1. No , there 's a great deal of difference between a General Councel , and the whole Body of the Church . Aud when a General Councel erres , as the second of Ephesus did , on t of that great Catholike Body another may be gathered , as was then that of Chalcedon , to do the Truth of Christ that right which belongs unto it . Now if it were all one in effect to say , a General Councel can erre , and that the Whole Church can erre , there were no Remedy left against a General Councel erring ; ‖ ‖ § 33 Consid. 7. Num. 4. which is your Case now at Rome , and which hath thrust the Church of Christ into more straits than any one thing besides . But I know where you would be . A General Councel is Infallible , if it be confirmed by the Pope ; and the Pope he is Infallible , else he could not make the Councel so . And they which deny the Councels Infallibility , deny the Pope's which confirms it . And then indeed the Protestants depart a mighty way from this great Foundation of Faith , the Popes Infallibility . But God be thanked , this is onely from the Foundation of the present Romane Faith ( as A. C. and the Jesuite call it ) not from any Foundation of the A. C. p. 68. Christian Faith , to which this Infallibility was ever a stranger .

Num. 5 From Answering , A. C. falls to asking Questions . I think he means to try whether he can win any thing upon me , by the cunning way A multis Interrogationibus simul , by asking many things at once , to see if any one may make me slip into a Confession inconvenient . And first , he asks , How Protestants , admitting A. C. p. 69. no Infallible Rule of Faith , but Scripture onely , can be infallibly sure that they believe the same entire Scripture , and Creed , and the Four first General Councels , and in the same incorrupted sense in which the Primitive Church believed ? 'T is just as I said . Here are many Questions in one , and I might easily be caught , would I answer in gross to them all together ; but I shall go more distinctly to work . Well then ; I admit no ordinary Rule left in the Church , of Divine and Infallible Verity , and so of Faith , but the Scripture . And I believe the entire Scripture , first by the Tradition of the Church ▪ Then by all other credible Motives , as is before expressed : And last of all , by the light which shines in the Scripture it self , kindled in Believers by the Spirit of God . Then I believe the entire Scripture Infallibly , and by a Divine Infallibility am sure of my Object : Then am I as sure of my Believing , which is the Act of my Faith , conversant about this Object : For no man believes , but he must needs know in himself whether he believes or no , and wherein , and how far he doubts . Then I am Infallibly assured of my Creed , the Tradition of the Church inducing , and the Scripture confirming it . And I believe both Scripture and Creed in the same uncorrupted sense which the Primitive Church believed them ; and am sure that I do so Believe them , because I cross not in my Belief any thing delivered by the Primitive Church . And this again I am sure of , because I take the Belief of the Primitive Church , as it is expressed , and delivered by the Councels , and Ancient Fathers of those times . As for the Four Councels , if A. C. ask how I have them , that is , their true and entire Copies ? I answer , I have them from the Church-Tradition onely : And that 's Assurance enough for this . And so I am fully as sure as A. C. is , or can make me . But if he ask how I know infallibly I believe them in their true and uncorrupted sense ? Then I answer , There 's no man of knowledge , but he can understand the plain and simple Decision expressed in the Canon of the Councel , where 't is necessary to Salvation . And for all other debates in the Councels , or Decisions of it in things of less moment , 't is not necessary that I , or any man else , have Infallible Assurance of them ; though I think 't is possible to attain , even in these things , as much Infallible Assurance of the uncorrupted sense of them , as A. C. or any other Jesuites have .

Num. 6 A. C. asks again , What Text of Scripture tells , That Protestants now living do believe all this , or that all this is expressed A. C. p. 69. in those particular Bibles , or in the Writings of the Fathers and Councels , which now are in the Protestants hands ? Good God! Whither will not a strong Bias carry even a learned Judgment ! Why , what Consequence is there in this ? The Scripture now is the onely Ordinary Infallible Rule of Divine Faith , Therefore the Protestants cannot believe all this before mentioned , unless a particular Text of Scripture can be shewed for it . Is it not made plain before , how we believe Scripture to be Scripture , and by Divine and Infallible Faith too , and yet we can shew no particular Text for it ? Beside , were a Text of Scripture necessary , yet that is for the Object and the thing which we are to believe , not for the Act of our believing , which is meerly from God , and in our selves , and for which we cannot have any Warrant from , or by Scripture , more than that we ought to believe ; but not that we in our particular do believe . The rest of the Question is far more inconsequent , Whether all this be expressed in the Bibles which are in Protestants hands ? For first , we have the same Bibles in our hands , which the Romanists have in theirs ; Therefore either we are Infallibly sure of ours , or they are not Infallibly sure of theirs ; For we have the same Book , and delivered unto us by the same hands ; and all is expressed in ours , that is in theirs . Nor is it of moment in this Argument , that we account more Apocryphal than they do ; For I will acknowledge every Fundamental point of Faith as proveable out of the Canon , as we account it , as if the Apocryphal were added unto it . Secondly , A. C. is here extreamly out of himself , and his way ; For his Question is , Whether all this be expressed in the Bibles which we have ? All this ? All what ? Why , before there is mention of the four General Councels ; and in this Question here 's mention of the Writings of the Fathers and the Councels . And what , will A. C. look that we must shew a Text of Scripture for all this , and an express one too ? I thought , and do so still , 't is enough to ground Belief upon * * Non potest aliquid certum esse certitudine Fidei , nisi aut immediatè contineatur in Verbo Dei : aut ex Verbo Dei per evidentem Consequentiam deducatur . Bellar. L. 3. de Justif. c. 8. §. 2. Necessary Consequence out of Scripture , as well as upon express Text. And this I am sure of , that neither I , nor any man else is bound to believe any thing as Necessary to Salvation , be it found in Councels , or Fathers , or where you will , † † Nec ego Nicaenum , nec tu debes Ariminense tanqu●m pr●judicaturus proferre Concilium . Nec ego hujus Authoritate , nec tu illius detineris . Scripturarum Authoritatibus , &c. Res cum re , Causa cum causà , Ratio cum ratione concertet . S. Aug. L. 3. cont. Maximinum . c. 14. Testimonia Divina in fundamento ponenda sunt . S. Aug. L. 20. de Civ . Dei . c. 1. Quia principia hujus Doctrinae per Revelationem habentur , &c. Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 8. ad 2. Solis Scripturarum Libris Canonicis didici hunc honorem deferr● , ut nullum Authorem eorum in scribendo errâsse aliquid firmissimè credam . Alios autem ita le●o , ut quantalibet sanctitate , doctrin●que praepolleant , non ideò verum putem , quod ips● ità senserunt , vel scripserunt . S. Aug. Epist. 19. if it be Contrary to express Scripture , or necessary Consequence from it . And for the Copies of the Councels and Fathers which are in our hands , they are the same that are in the hands of the Romanists , and delivered to Posterity by Tradition of the Church , which is abundantly sufficient to warrant that ▪ So we are as Infallibly sure of this , as 't is possible for any of you to be . Nay , are we not more sure ? For we have used no Index Expurgatorius upon the Writings of the Fathers * * Sixtus Senens . i● Epist. ad Pi●m quintum . as you have done : So that Posterity hereafter must thank us for true Copies both of Councels and Fathers , and not you .

Num. 7 But A. C. goes on , and asks still , Whether Protestants be Infallibly A. C. p. 69. sure that they rightly understand the sense of all which is expressed in their Books , according to that which was understood by the Primitive Church , and the Fathers which were present at the four first General Councels ? A. C. may ask everlastingly , if he will ask the same over and over again . For I pray wherein doth this differ from his † † §. 38. N. 5 : Question , save onely that here Scripture is not named ? For there the Question was of our Assurance of the Incorrupted sense : And therefore thither I refer you for Answer , with this , That it is not required either of us , or of them , that there should be had an Infallible assurance that we rightly understand the sense of all that is expressed in our Books . And I think I may believe without sin ▪ that there are many things expressed in these Books ( for they are theirs as well as ours ) which A. C. and his Fellows have not Infallible assurance that they rightly understand in the sense of the Primitive Church , or the Fathers present in those Councels . And if they say , Yes , they can , because when a difficulty crosses them , they believe them in the Churches sense : Yet that dry shift will not serve . For belief of them in the Churches sense is an Implicite Faith ; but it works nothing distinctly upon the understanding . For by an Implioite Faith no man can be infallibly assured that he doth rightly understand the sense ( which is A. C's Question ) whatever perhaps he may rightly believe . And an Implicite Faith , and an Infallible understanding of the same thing , under the same Considerations , cannot possibly stand together in the same man at the same time .

Num. 8 A. C. hath not done asking yet : But he would farther A. C. p. 69. know , Whether Protestants can be Infallibly sure that all and onely those points which Protestants account Fundamental and necessary to be expresly known by all ▪ were so accounted by the Primitive Church ? Truly , Unity in the Faith is very Considerable in the Church . And in this the Protestants agree , and as Uniformly as you , and have as Infallible Assurance as you can have , of all points which they account Fundamental ; yea , and of all , which were so accounted by the Primitive Church . And these are but the Creed , and some few , and those Immediate deductions from it . And † Tertullian and * * Tert. praescrip. adversus Haeres . c. 13. &c. Ruffinus upon the very Clause of the Catholike Church , to decipher it , make a recital onely of the Fundamental Points of Faith . And for the first of these , * Ruffin . in Symb. the Creed , you see what the sense of the Primitive Church was by that Famous and known place of * * Et neque qui valde potens est in dicendo ex Ecclesi● Praesectis alia ab his ●di●et , &c. Neque debilis in dicendo hanc Traditionem i●●minuet . Quùm enim una & eadem fides sit , neque is , qu● mult●● de eâ dicere potest , plusquam opportet , dicit , neque qui parum , ipsam imminuit . Irenae . ● . 1. Adv. Her. c. 2. & 3. E. S. Basil. Serm. de Fide , To. 2. p. 195. E●it Basil. 1509. una & Immobilis Regula , &c. Tert. de V●land . Virg. c. 1. Irenaeus : where after he had recited the Creed , as the Epitome or Brief of the Faith , he adds , That none ▪ of the Governours of the Church , be they never so potent to Express them selves , can say alia ab his , other things from these : Nor none so weak in Expression as to diminish this Tradition . For since the Faith is One , and the same , He that can say much of it , says no more than he ought ; Nor doth he diminish it , that can say but little . And in this the Protestants all agree . And for the second , the immediate Deductions , they are not formally Fundamental for all men , but for such † † Quantum ad prima Credibilia , quae sunt Articuli Fidei , tenetur homo Axplic●●e crede●● , sicut & tenetur habere fidem . Quantum 〈◊〉 ad alia Credibilia , &c. non tenetur explicitè credere , nisi quando hoc ci constiterit in Doctrina Fidei contineri . Tho. 2. 2. q. 2. ● . 5. 6. Potest quis Errare Creae●d● oppositum Alicui Articulo subtili , ad cuius fidem explicitam ●on omnes tenentur . Holkot . in 1. sent. q. 1. ad quartum . as are able to make or understand them . And for others , 't is enough if they do not obstinately or Schismatically refuse them , after they are once revealed . Indeed you account many things Fundamental , which were never so accounted in any sense by the Primitive Church ; such as are all the Decrees of General Councels , which may be all true , but can never be all Fundamental in the Faith . For it is not in the power of ‖ ‖ ●esotutio Ocham est , ●uod nec tota Ecclesia , nec Concilium Generale , nec summus Pontifex potest facere Articulum q●od 〈◊〉 fuit Articulus . Articulus enim est ex ●o solo , quia a Deo R●v●la●us est , Almain . e● 3. sent. D. 15. q. unica . Conclus . 4. Dub. 3. the whole Church , much less of a General Councel , to make any thing Fundamental in the Faith , that is not contained in the Letter or sense , of that common Faith , which was once given ( and but once for all ) to the Saints , S. Jude 3. S. Jude vers. 3. But if it be A. C's meaning to call for an Infallible Assurance of all such Points of Faith as are Decreed by General Councels : Then I must be bold to tell him : All those Decrees are not necessary to all mens salyation . Neither do the Romanisis themselves agree in all such determined Points of Faith ; Be they determined by Councels , or by Popes . For Instance . After those Books ) which we account Apocryphal were * * Concil. Trid. Sess. 4. defined to be Canonical , and an Anathema pronounced in the Case , † † Six . Senens . Biblioth. Sanct. L. 1. Sixtus Senensis makes scruple of some of them . And after ‖ ‖ Non est necessari● credendum Determinntis ▪ per Sum. Pontificem , &c. Almaln . in 3. sent. D. 24. q. unica Conclus . 6. Dubio . 6. fine . Pope Leo the tenth had defined the Pope to be above a General Councel , yet many Roman Cathalikes defend the Contrary ; And so do all the Sorb●nists at this very day . Therefore if these be Fundamental in the Faith , the Romanists differ one from another in the Faith , nay , in the Fundamentals of the Faith ; And therefore cannot have Infallible Assurance of them . Nor is there that Unity in the Faith amongst them , which they so much , and so often boast of . For what Scripture is Canonical is a great point of Faith . And I believe they will not now Confess , That the Popes power over a General Councel is a small one . And so let A. C. look to his own Infallible Assurance of Fundamentals in the Faith : for ours , God be thanked , is well . And since he is pleased to call for a particular Text of Scripture to prove all and every thing of this nature , which is ridiculous in it self , and unreasonable to demand ( as hath been * * §. 38. Nu. 6. shewed ) yet when he shall be pleased to bring forth but a particular known Tradition , to prove all and every thing of this on their side , it will then be perhaps time for him to call for , and for us to give farther Answer about particular Texts of Scripture .

Num. 9 After all this Ouestioning A. C. infers , That I had need seek A. C. p. 69. out some other Infallible Rule , and means , by which I may know these things infallibly , or else that I have no reason to be so confident , as to adventure my soul , that one may be saved living and dying in the Protestant faith . How weak this Inference is , will easily appear , by that which I have already said to the premises ; And yet I have somewhat left to say to this Inference also . And first , I have lived , and shall ( God willing ) die in the Faith of Christ , as it was professed in the Ancient Primitive Church , as it was professed in the present Church of England . And for the Rule which governs me herein , if I cannot be confident for my soul upon the Scripture , and the Primitive Church expounding and declaring it , I will be confident upon no other . And secondly , I have all the reason in the world to be confident upon this Rule ; for this can never deceive me ; Another ( that very other which A. C. proposes ) namely , the Faith of the Roman A. C. p. 72. Church ) may . Therefore with A. C's leave , I will venture my salvation upon the Rule aforesaid , and not trouble my self to seek another of mans making , to the forsaking and weakening of this which God hath given me . For I know they Committed two Evils , which forsook the Fountain of Living Waters , to hew out to themselves Cisterns , broken Cisterns , that can hold no Water , Jer. 2. For here 's the Evil of Desertion of that Jer. 2. 13. which was Right : and the Evil of a bad Choice , of that which is hew'd out with much pains and care , and is after Useless and Unprofitable . But then Thirdly , I finde that a Romanist may make use of an Implicite Faith ( at his pleasure ) but a Protestant must know all these things Infallibly ; that 's A. C's word , Know these things ; Why , but is it not enough to believe them ? Now God forbid it should . Else what shall become of Millions of poor Christians in the world , which cannot know all these things , much less know them Infallibly ? Well , I would not have A. C. weaken the Belief of poor Christians in this fashion . But for things that may be known as well as believed , nor I , nor any other shall need forsake the Scripture , to seek another Rule to direct either our Conscience , or our Confidence .

Num. 10 In the next place A. C. observes , That the Jesuite was as confident for his part , with this difference , that he had sufficient A. C. p. 69. reason of his Confidence , but I had not for mine . This is said with the Confidence of a Jesuite , but as yet , but said . Therefore he goes on and tells us , That the Jesuite had reason of his A. C. p. 70. Confidence , out of express Scriptures , and Fathers , and the Infallible Authority of the Church . Now truly , Express Scriptures , with A. C's patience , he hath not named one that is express , nor can he . And the few Scriptures which he hath alledged , I have * * §. 25. N. 5. §. 33. Co●sid . 3 N. 1. Answered , and so have others . As for Fathers , he hath named very few , and with what success , I leave to the Readers judgment . And for the Authority of the Catholike Church , I hold it † † §. 21. N. ● . as Infallible as he , and , upon better Grounds , but not so of a General Councel , which he here means , as appears ‖ ‖ A. C. p. 71. after . And for my part I must yet think ( and I doubt A. C. will not be able to disprove it ) that express Scripture , and Fathers , and the Authority of the Church will rather be found proofs to warrant my Confidence , than his . Yea , but A. C. saith , That I did A. C. p. 70. not then taxe the Jesuite with any rashness . It may be so ; Nor did he me . So there we parted even . Yea , but he saith again , that I acknowledge there is but one saving Faith , and that the Lady might be saved in the Romane Faith , which was all the Jesuite took upon his soul. Why , but if this be all , I will confess it again . The first , That there is but one faith , I confess with S. Paul , Ephes. 4. And the other , that the Lady might be saved Ephes. 4. 5. in the Romane Faith , or Church * * §. 35. N. 1. , I confess with that charity which S. Paul teacheth me , Namely , to leave all men , especially the weaker both sex and sort , which hold the Foundation , to stand or fall to their own Master , Rom. 14. And this is no mistaken Rom. 14. 4. charity . As for the Inference which you would draw out of it , that 's answered at large † † §. 35. N. 2. A. C. p. 70. already . But than A. C. adds , That I say , but without any proof , that the Romanists have many dangerous errours , but that I neither tell them which they be , nor why I think them dangerous , but that I leave them to look to their own souls ; which ( he says ) they do , and have no cause to doubt . How much the Jesuite and A. C. have said in this Conference , without any solid Proof , I again submit to judgment , as also what Proofs I have made . If in this very place I have added none , 't is because I had made proof enough of the self-same thing ‖ ‖ §. 33. N. 12. §. 35. N. 7. before . Where , lest he should want and call for Proof again , I have plainly laid together some of the many Dangerous errours which are charged upon them . So I tell you which , at least , some of which they be : and their very naming will shew their danger . And if I did remit you to look to your own souls ▪ I hope there was no offence in that , if you do it , and do it so , that you have no cause to doubt . And the reason why you doubt not , A. C. tells us , is , Because you had no new device A. C. p. 70. of your own , or any other mens , nor any thing contrary to Scripture , but all most conformable to Scriptures interpreted by Union , Consont of Fathers , and Definitions of Councels . Indeed if this were true , you had little cause to doubt in point of your Belief . But the truth is , you do hold new Devices of your own , which the Primitive Church was never acquainted with . And some of those so far from being conformable , as that they are little less than contradictory to Scripture . In which particulars , and divers others , the Scriptures are not interpreted by Union , or Consent of Fathers , or Definitions of Councels , unless perhaps by some late Councels , packed of purpose to do that ill service . I have given Instances enough * * § 33. N. 12. § 35. N. 7. before ; yet some you shall have here , lest you should say again , that I affirm without proof or Instance . † † Conc. Lateran Can. 1. I pray then whose Device was Transubstantiation ? ‖ ‖ Conc. Constan. Sess. 13. And whose Communion under one kinde ? * * Propter Haeresin Rex non solùm Regno privatur , sed & filii ejus à Regni successione pelluntur . Simanca Cathol. I●stit . tit . 9. § 259. Absoluti sunt Subditi à debito Fidelitatis : Et custodes Artium , &c. Ibid. tit . 46. § 37. It was sti●ly avowed long since by — That no man could shew any one Romane Catholike of note and Learning , that affirmed it lawful to kill Kings upon any pretext whatsoever . Now , surely he that says ( as Romanists do ) that 't is lawful to Depose a King , says upon the matter , 't is lawful to kill him . For Kings do not use to be long-liv'd after their Deposition : And they seldom stay till grief break their hearts : They have Assassinates ready to make shorter work . But since he is so confident , I 'll give him an Author of note , and very Learned , that speaks it out . Rex debet occidi , si solicitet populum colere Idola , vel desere Lege● Dei . Tostat. in 2 Sam. c. 11. q. 17. And he makes bold with Scripture to prove it , Deut. 13. And Emanuel Sa in his Aphorisms , Verbo T●●annus ; yet he is so moderate , that he would not have this done , till he be S●●s●●c'd ; but then , Quisquis potest fieri Executor . Mariana is far worse : for he says it is lawful to kill him , postquam à pancis Seditiosis , sed doctis c●perit Tyrannus appellari . L. 1. de Rege . & Reg. Institutione , c. 6. Yea but Mariana was disclaimed for this by the Jesuites . Yea but for all that , there was an Apologie Printed in Italy , An. 1610. Permissu Superiorum . And there 't is said , They were all Enemies of the holy Name of Jesus , that condemned Mariana for any such Doctrine . As for Tostatus , no Sentence hath touched upon him at all for it . And whose Deposition and Unthroning , nay Killing of Princes , and the like , if they were not yours ? For I dare say , and am able to prove , there 's none of these but are rather contrary than conformable to Scripture . Neither is A. C. or any Jesuite able to shew any † † Corpus Christi verd●iter esse in Encharistist ex Evangelio habemus : Conversionem verò P●nis in Corpus Christi Evangelium non explicavit , sed expresse ab Ecclesiâ accepimus . Cajetan . in Thom. 3. q. 75. Art. 1. Scripture interpreted by Union or ‖ ‖ D● Transubstantiatione Panis in Corpus Christi rara est in antiquis Scriptoribus m●●tio . Alpha Castro , L. 8. advers. Har. Verbo Indulgentia . Consent of Fathers of the Primitive Church , to prove any one of these : Nor any Definition of Ancient Councels , but only * * Concil. Lateran . C●● . 1. Lateran for Transubstantiation , and that of † † Concil. Constan. Sess. 13. Constance for the Eucharist in one kinde ; which two are Modern at least , far downward from the Primitive Church ; and have done more mischief to the Church , by those their Determinations , than will be cured I fear in many Generations . So whatever A. C. thinks , yet I had reason enough to leave the Jesuite to look to his own soul.

Num. 11 But A. C. having as it seems little new matter , is at the same again , and over and over it must go , That there is but one A. C. p. 70. saving Faith : That this one Faith was once the Romane : And that I granted , one might be saved in the Romane Faith . To all which I have abundantly answered * * § 35. N. 1. & § 38. N. 10. before . Marry then he infers , That he sees not how we can have our souls saved , without we entirely hold this Faith , being the Catholike Faith ; which S. Athanasius saith , unless a man hold entirely , he cannot be saved . Now here again is more in the Conclusion than in the Premises ; and so the Inference fails . For say there was a time in which the Catholike and the Romane Faith were one , and such a time there was , when the Romane Faith was Catholike and famous through the world , Rom. 1. Yet Rom. 1. 8. it doth not follow , since the † † Concil. Trident . Bulla Pii 4. super formâ Juramenti professionis Fidei àd finem . Concil. Trident. Councel of Trent hath added a new Creed , that this Romane Faith is now the Catholike . For it hath added extranea , things without the Foundation , disputable , if not false Conclusions to the Faith . So that now a man may Believe the whole and entire Catholike Faith , even as S. Athanasius requires , and yet justly refuse for dross a great part of that which is now ‖ ‖ And this is so much the more Remarkable , if it be true which Thomas hath . S. Athanasium non composuisse hanc Manifestationem Fidei , per modum Symboli , sed per modum Doctrinae , &c. Et deinde Authoritate summi Pontificis receptam esse , ut quasi Regula fidei habeatur . Tho. 2. 2 ae . q. 1. A. 10. ad 3. Symbolo Apostolorum àddita sunt duo alia , scilicet Symbolum Nicaenum , & S. Athanasii , ad majorem Fidei Explanationem . Bie ) . in 3 Sent. D. 25. q. unicâ . A. 1 D. the Romane Faith . And Athanasius himself , as if he meant to arm the Catholike Faith against all corrupting Additions , hath in the beginning of his * * S. Athanas. in Symb. Creed , these words , This is the Catholike Faith , This , and no other : This and no Other , then here follows . And again at the end of his Creed , † † And yet the Councel of Trent having added twelve new Articles , says thus of them also : Haec est vera Catholica Fides , extra quam nemo salvus esse potest , &c. Bulla Pii 4. super forma Juramenti professionis Fidei . In fine Concil. Trident. This is the Catholike Faith , ‖ ‖ Integram Fidei Veritatem , ejus Doctrinam breviter continet . Tho. 2. 2 ▪ ae . q. 1. A. 10. ad 3. This and no more than is here delivered , ( always presupposing the Apostles Creed , as Athanasius did ) and this is the largest of all Creeds . So that if A. C. would wipe his eyes from the mist which rises about Tyber , he might see how our souls may be saved , believing the Catholike Faith , and that entire , without the Addition of Romane Leaven . But if he cannot , or , I doubt , will not see it ; 't is enough that by Gods grace we see it . And therefore once more I leave him and his , to look to their own souls .

Num. 12 After this , A. C. is busie in unfolding the meaning of this great Father of the Church , S. Athanasius . And he tells us , That he A. C. p. 70. says in his Creed , That without doubt every man shall perish , that holds not the Catholike Faith entire , ( that is , saith A. C. in every Point of it ) and inviolate ( that is , in the right sense ) and for the true formal reason of divine Revelation , sufficiently applied to our understanding by the Infallible Authority of the Catholike Church proposing to us by her Pastors this Revelation . Well , we shall not differ much from A. C. in expounding the meaning of S. Athanasius ; yet some few things I shall here observe . And first , I agree that he which hopes for Salvation , must believe the Catholike Faith whole and entire in every Point . Next , I agree , that he must likewise hold it inviolate , if to believe it in the right sense , be to hold it inviolate . But by A. C's leave ▪ the Believing of the Creed in the right sense , is comprehended in the first branch , The keeping of it whole and entire . For no man can properly be said to believe the Whole Creed , that believes not the Whole Sense , as well as the Letter of it , and as entirely . But thirdly , for the word inviolate , 't is indeed used by him that translated Athanasius . But the Father 's own words , following the Common Edition , are , That he that will be saved must keep the Faith 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Now 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , is the sound and entire Faith . And it cannot be a sound Faith , unless the Sense be as whole and entire as the Letter of the Creed . And 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 is compounded of the Privative particle ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , which is reproach or infamy . So that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 signifies , the holding of the entire Faith in such holiness of life and conversation , as is without all infamy and reproach . That is , as our English renders that Creed exceeding well : Which Faith unless a man do keep whole and * * Sic Ecclesia dicitur 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Eph. 5. 27 & in veteri Glossario , Immaculatus , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . undefiled , even with such a life as Monius himself shall not be able to carp at . So Athanasius ( who certainly was passing able to express himself in his own Language ) in the beginning of that his Creed requires , That we keep it entire , without diminution ; and undesiled , without blame : And at the end , that we believe it faithfully , without wavering . But [ inviolate ] is the mistaken word of the old Interpreter , and with no great knowledge made use of by A. C. And then fourthly , though this be true Divinity , That he which hopes for Salvation , must believe the Whole Creed , and in the right sense too ( if he be able to comprehend it ) yet I take the true and first meaning of inviolate ( could Athanasius his word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 have signified so ) not to be the holding of the true sense , but not to offer violence , o● a forced sence or meaning upon the Creed ; which every man doth not , that yet believes it not in a true sence . For not to believe the true sence of the Creed , is one thing : But 't is quite another , to force a wrong sence upon it . Fifthly , a Reason would be given also , why A. C. is so earnest for the whole Faith , and bauks the word which goes with it , which is holy or undesiled . For Athanasius doth alike exclude from Salvation those which keep not the Catholike Faith holy , as well as these which keep it not whole . I doubt this was to spare many of his † † §. 35. N. 6. holy Fathers , the Popes , who were as far as any ( the very ●ewd●st among men without exception ) from keeping the Catholike Faith holy . Sixthly , I agree to the next part of his Exposition , That a man that will be saved must believe the whole Creed for the true formal reason of divine Revelation . For upon the Truth of God thus revealed by Himself ▪ 〈◊〉 the infallible certainty of the Christian Faith . But I do not grant , that this is within the compass of S. Athanasius his word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , nor of the word Inviolate . But in that respect 't is a meer strain of A. C. And then lastly , though the whole Catholike Church be sufficient in applying this to us and our Belief , not our Understanding , which A. C. is at again ; yet Infallible She is not , in the A. C. p. 70. proposal of this Revelation to us by every of her Pastors , some whereof amongst you , as well as others , neglect , or forget at least to feed Christ's sheep , as Christ and his Church hath fed them .

Num. 13 But now that A. C. hath taught us ( as you see ) the meaning of S. Athanasius ; in the next place he tells us , That if we did believe A. C. p. 70. any one Article , we ( finding the same formal Reason in all , and applied sufficiently by the same means to all ) would easily believe all . Why surely we do not believe any one Article onely , but all the Articles of the Christian Faith ; And we believe them for the same formal Reason in all , namely , Because they are revealed from and by God , and sufficiently applied in his Word , and by his Churches Ministration . But so long as they do not believe all in this sort ( saith A. C. ) Look you ; He tells us we do not believe all , when we profess we do . Is this man A. C. p. 70. become as God , that he can better tell what we believe , than we our selves ? Surely we do believe all , and in that sort too : Though , I believe , were S. Athanasius himself alive again , and a plain man should come to him , and tell him he believed his Creed in all and every particular ; he would admit him for a good Catholike Christian , though he were not able to express to him the formal reason of that his belief . Yea but ( saith A. C. ) while they will , as all Hereticks do , make choice of what they A. C. p. 70. will , and what they will not believe , without relying upon the Infallible Authority of the Catholike Church , they cannot have that one saving Faith in any one Article . Why , but whatsoever Hereticks do , we are not such , nor do we so . For they which believe all the Articles ( as once again I tell you we do ) make no choice ; And we do relie upon the Infallible Authority of the Word of God , and the whole Catholike Church ; And therefore we both can have , and have that one saving Faith which believes all the Articles entirely , though we cannot believe that any particular Church is infallible .

Num. 14 And yet again A. C. will not thus be satisfied , but on he goes , and adds , That although we believe the same truth which other A. C. p. 71. good Catholikes do in some Articles , yet not believing them for the same formal reason of Divine Revelation sufficiently applied by Infallible Church-Authority , &c. we cannot be said to have one and the same Infallible and Divine Faith which other good Catholike Christians have , who believe the Articles for this formal Reason , sufficiently made known to them , not by their own fancy , nor the fallible Authority of humane deductions , but by the Infallible Authority of the Church of God . If A. C. will still say the same thing , I must still give the same answer . First , he confesses we believe the same Truth in some Articles ( I pray mark his phrase ) the same Truth in some Articles with other good Catholike Christians : so far his Pen hath told Truth against his will : for he doth not ( I wot well ) intend to call us Catholikes , and yet his Pen being truer than himself , hath let it fall . For the word ( other ) cannot be so used as here it is , but that we , as well as they , must be good Catholikes : For he that shall say , the old Romans were valiant , as well as other men , supposes the Romans to be valiant men ; And he that shall say , The Protestants believe some Articles ▪ as well as other good Catholikes , must in propriety of speech suppose them to be good Catholikes . Secondly , as we do believe those some Articles , so do we believe them , and all other Articles of Faith , for the same formal reason , and so applied , as but just * * §. 38. N● . 1● . before I have expressed . Nor do we believe any one Article of Faith by our own fancy , or by fallible Authority of humane deductions ; but next to the Infallible Authority of God's Word , we are guided by his Church . But then A. C. steps into a Conclusion , A. C. p. 71. whither we cannot follow him : For he says , that the Article to be believed must be sufficiently made known unto us by the Infallible Authority of the Church of God , that is , of men Infallibly assisted by the Spirit of God , as all lawfully called , continued , and confirmed General Councels are assisted . That the † † §. 21. N● . ● . whole Church of God is infallibly assisted by the Spirit of God , so that it cannot by any errour fall away totally from Christ the Foundation , I make no doubt . For if it could , the gates of Hell had prevailed against it , which , our Saviour assures me , S. Matth. Matth. 16. 18. 16. they shall never be able to do . But that all General Councels , be they never so lawfully called , continued , and confirmed , have Infallible Assistance , I utterly deny . 'T is true , that a General Councel de post facto , after 't is ended , and admitted by the whole Church , is then Infallible ▪ for it cannot erre in that which it hath already clearly and truly determined without Errour . But that a General Councel à parte ante , when it first sits down and continues to deliberate , may truly be said to be Infallible in all its after-determinations , whatsoever they shall be , I utterly deny . And it may be it was not without cunning that A. C. shuffled these words together , Called , Continued , and Confirmed ; for be it never so lawfully called , and continued , it may erre . But after 't is confirmed , that is , admitted by the whole Church , then being found true , it is also Infallible ; that is , it deceives no man . For so all Truth is , and is to us , when 't is once known to be Truth . But then many times that Truth , which being known is necessary and Infallible , was before both contingent and fallible in the way of proving it , and to us . And so here , a General Councel is a most probable , but yet a fallible way of inducing Truth , though the Truth once induced may be ( after 't is found ) necessary and Infallible . And so likewise the very Councel it self for that particular in which it hath concluded Truth . But A. C. must both speak and mean of a Councel set down to deliberate , or else he says nothing .

Num. 15 Now hence A. C. gathers ▪ That though every thing defined to A. C. p. 71. be a Divine Truth in General Councels is not absolutely necessary to be expresly known and actually believed ( as some other Truths are ) by all sorts : yet no man may ( after knowledge that they are thus defined ) doubt deliberately , much less obstiuately deny the Truth of any thing so defined . Well , in this Collection of A. C. First , we have this granted , That every thing defined in General Councels is not absolutely necessary to be expresly known , and actually believed by all sorts of men ▪ And this no Protestant , that I know , denies . Secondly , it is affirmed , that after knowledge , that these Truths are thus defined , no man may doubt deliberately , much less obstinately deny any of them ▪ Truly ▪ Obstinately ( as the word is now in common use ) carries a fault along with it : And it ought to be far from the temper of a Christian , to be obstinate against the Definitions of a General Councel . But that he may not upon very probable grounds , in an humble and peaceable manner deliberately doubt ; yea , and upon Demonstrative grounds constantly deny even such Definitions , yet submitting himself and his grounds to the Church in that or another Councel , is that which was never till now imposed upon Believers . For 'T is one thing for a man deliberately to doubt , and modestly to propose his Doubt for satisfaction , which was ever lawful , and is many times necessary . And quite another thing for a man upon the pride of his own Judgment , * * §. 32. Nu. 5. to refuse external Obedience to the Councel , which to do , was never Lawful , nor can ever stand with any Government . For there is all the reason in the world , the Councel should be heard for it self , as well as any such Recusant whatsoever , and that before a Judge as good as it self at least . And to what end did † † S. Aug. 1. 2. de Bapt. cont. Donat. c. 3. Ipsaque plenaria , saepe pri●ra à posterioribus em●ndar● . S. Augustine say , That one General Councel might be amended by another , the former by the Later , if men might neither deny , nor so much as deliberately doubt of any of these Truths defined in a General Councel ? And A. C. should have done well to have named but one ancient Father of the Primitive Church , that ever affirmed this . * * §. 21. N. 5. For the Assistance which God gives to the whole Church in general , is but in things simply necessary to eternal Salvation ; therefore more than this cannot be given to a General Councel , no nor so much ▪ But then if a General Councel shall forget it self , and take upon it to define things not absolutely necessary to be expresly known , or actually believed ( which are the things which A. C. here speaks of ) In these as neither General Councel , no● the whole Church have infallible Assistance : so have Christians liberty modestly and peaceably , and upon just grounds , both deliberately to doubt , and constantly to deny such the Councels Definitions . For instance , the Councel of Florence first defined Purgatory to be believed as a Divine Truth , and matter of Faith ( * * I know the Greeks subscribed that Councel . Sed in i●●o Concilio Graeca Ecclesia di● restitit . Pet. Mart. Loc. com . classe tertiâ , c. 9. Nu. 13. Et in ultimâ Sessione istius Concilii Graeci dixerunt se si●e Authoritate totius Ecclesiae Orientalis Questionem aliam tractare non posse , praeter illam de processione Spiritus Sancti . Postea verò , consenti●nte Imperatore , tractárunt de aliis , &c. Florent . Con. Sess. ult. apud Nicolinum , To. 4. p. 894 , &c. This favours of some art to bring in the Greeks . Howsoever this shews enough against Bellarmint , That all the Greeks did not constantly teach Purgatory , as he affirms , L. 1. de Purgat . c. 11. §. De tertio modo . if that Councel had Consent enough so to define it . ) This was afterwards deliberately doubted of by the Protestants ; after this as constantly denied , then confirmed by the † † Concil. Trid. Sess. 25. & in Bullâ Pii 4. super formâ Jurame●ti professionis Fidei . Councel of Trent , and an Anathema set upon the head of every man that denies it . And yet scarce any Father within the first three hundred years ever thought of it .

Num. 16 I know * * Omnes veteres Graeci & Latini ab ipso tempore Apostolorum constanter docuerunt Purgatorium esse , Bel. L. 1. de Pur. c 11. §. De tertio modo . Bellarmine affirms it boldly , That all the Fathers , both Greek and Latine , did constantly teach Purgatory from the very Apostles times . And where he brings his Proofs out of the Fathers for this Point , he divides them into two Ranks . † † Bel. Lib. 1. de Purg. c. 6. §. 1. In the first , he reckons them which affirm Prayer for the dead , as if that must necessarily infer Purgatory . Whereas most certain it is , that the Ancients had , and gave other Reasons of Prayer for the dead , then freeing them out of any Purgatory . And this is very Learnedly , and at large set down , by the now Learned a a Jaco . Usher Armachan . In his answer to the Jesuites Challenge , c. 7. p. 194. Primate of Armagh . But then in the second , he says , there are b b Sunt apertissima Loca in Patribus , ubi asserunt Purgarium , Bel. L. 1. de Purg. c. 6. §. Deindesunt most manifest places in the Fathers ▪ in which they affirm Purgatory . And he names there no fewer then two and twenty of the Fathers . A great Jury certainly , did they give their Verdict with him . But first , within the three hundred years after Christ , he names none but Tertullian , Cyprian , and Origen . And c c Tert. L. de An● . c. 17. Infer . Tertullian speaks expresly of Hell , not of Purgatory . d d Cypr. L. 4. Ep. 2. Em●●dayi igne . S. Cyprian of a Purging to Amendment , which cannot be after this Life . As for e e Origen . L. 1. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . c. 6. S. Hieron . in Jonae 3. Bellar. L. 1. de Purg. c. 2. §. Porro non . S Aug. L. 21. Civ . Dei , c. 17. Origen , he , I think , indeed was the first Founder of Purgatory ; But of such an One , as I believe Bellarmine dares not affirm . For he thought there was no Punishment after this life , but Purgatory ; and that not onely the most impious men , but even the Devils themselves should be saved , after they had suffered and been Purged enough . Which is directly contrary to the Word of God expounded by his f f Aug. L. 2● . Civ . Dei , c. 17. Church . In the fourth and fifth ( the great and Learned Ages of the Church ) he names more , as g g S. Amb. in Psal. 36. 14. S. Ambrose . But S. Ambr. says , That some shall be saved , quasi per ignem , as it were by fire , leaving it as doubtful , what was meant by that Fire , as the Place it self doth , whence it is taken . h h 1 Cor. 3. 15. 1 Cor. 3. i i S. Hieron . in 66 Isai. fine ▪ S. Hierome indeed names Purging by fire ; But 't is not very plain , that he means it after this life . And howsoever , this is most plain , That S. Hierome is at Credimus , we believe eternal Punishment ; but he goes no farther than Arbitramur , we think there is a Purging . So with him it was Arbitrary ; And therefore sure no Matter of Faith then . And again * * S Hiero. L. 4. cont. Pelag. ultra medium . he saith , That some Christians may be saved , post poenas , after some punishments indured , but he neither tells us Where , nor When. † † S. Basil. in Isai. 9. S. Basil names indeed Purgatory fire ; but he relates as uncertainly , to that in 1 Cor. 3. as S. Ambrose doth . As for ‖ ‖ Paulin. Ep. 1. Paulinus , he speaks for Prayer for the dead , but not a word of Purgatory . And the Place in * * Greg. Naz. Orat. 39. fine S. Gregory Nazianzen is far from a manifest Place . For he speaks there of Baptism by fire ; which is no † † I think the first that ever used that phrase , Baptism by fire , was Origen . And he used it for Martyrdom , as clearly appears by a passage of his in Euseb. L. 6. Hist. c. 4. Edit. Graec. Lat. Coll●niae Allob. 1612. usual phrase to signifie Purgatory . But yet say that here he doth , there 's a 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , a fortassis , a peradventure in the words , which Bellarmine cunningly leaves out . And if it be a Peradventure ye shall then be Baptized with fire ; why then 't is at a Peradventure too , that ye shall not . Now such Casual stuff as this ; peradventure you shall , and peradventure you shall not , is no Expression for things , which are valued to be de side , and to be believed as Matters of Faith . Bellarmine goes on with ‖ ‖ Lact. L. 7. c. 21. Lactantius , but with no better success . For he says indeed , That some men perstringentur igne , shall be sharply touched by fire . But he speaks of such , quorum peccata praevaluerunt , whose sins have prevailed . And they in Bellarmine's Doctrine are for Hell , not Purgatory . As for * * S. Hilar. in Ps. 118. v. 20. S. Hilary , he will not come home neither . 'T is true , he speaks of a Fine too , and one that must be indured ; but he tells us , 't is a punishment expiandae à peccatis animae , to purge the soul from sins . Now this will not serve Bellarmine's turn . For they of Rome teach , That the sins are forgiven here , and that the Temporal Punishment onely remains to be satisfied in Purgatory . And what need is there then of purging of sins ? Lest there should not be Fathers enough , he reckons in ‖ ‖ Boetius . L. 4. Pros. 4. Boetius too . But he , though not long before a Convert , yet was so well seen in this Point , that he goes no farther than Puto , I think that after death some souls are exercised purgatoriâ clementiâ , with a Purgative Clemency . But Puto , I think 't is so , is no expression for Matter of Faith . The two pregnant Authorities which seem to come home , are those of Gregory Nyssen , and Theodoret. But for * * Theo. in 1 Cor. 3. Theodoret in Scholiis Graecis ( which is the Place Bellarmine quotes ) I can finde no such Thing : And manifest it is , Bellarmine † † Bellarm. L. 1. de Purgato . c. 5. §. Ex Graecis habemus . himself took it but upon trust . And for ‖ ‖ S. Greg. Nyss. Orat. de Mortuis . p. 1066. Edit. Paris . 1615. Tom. 2. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . ibid. p. 1067. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. ibid. p. 1068. S. Gregory Nyssen , 't is true , some places in him seem plain . But then they are made so doubtful by other Places in him , that I dare not say simply and roundly , what his Judgment was . For he says , Men must be purged from Perturbations , and either by Prayers , and Philosophy , or the study of Wisdome , or by the furnace of Purgatory-fire after this life . And again , That a man cannot be partaker 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 of the Divine nature , unless the Purging-fire doth take away the stains that are in his Soul . And again , That after this life a Purgatory-fire takes away the blots and propensity to evil . And I deny not , divers other like places are in him . But first , this is quite another thing from the Roman Purgatory . For S. Gregory tells us here , that the Purgatory he means , purges Perturbations , and stains , and blots , and propensity to evil . Whereas the Purgatory which Rome now teaches , purges not sin , * * Item definimus , si verè poenitentes in Dei charitate decesserint , antequam dignis poenitentiae fructibus de Commissis & Omissis satisfecerint , poenis Purgatoriis post mortem purgari , Concil. Floren. circa prin. per Bin. Edit. Colon. 1618. but is only satisfactory by way of punishment for sins already forgiven , but for which satisfaction was not made before their Death . Secondly , S. Gregory Nyssen himself seems not obscurely to relate to some other Fire . * * S. Greg. Nyss. da Animâ & Resur . Tom. 2. p. 658. For he says expresly , That the soul is to be punished , till the Vitiosity of it be consumed , Purgatorio igne ; So the Translation renders it ; but in the Original it is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that is , in a fire that sleeps not , which , for ought appears , may be understood of a Fire that is eternal ; whereas the fire assigned to Purgatory shall cease . Besides , S. Gregory says plainly : The Soul cannot suffer by sire but in the Body ; and the Body cannot be with it , till the Resurrection . Therefore † † S. Greg. Orat. 3. de Resurrect. Christi . he must needs speak of a fire after the Resurrection , which must be either the Fire of the General Conflagration , or Hell ; Purgatory he cannot mean ; Where , according to the Romish Tenet , the Soul suffers without the Body . The truth is : Divers of the Ancient , especially Greeks , which were a little too much acquainted with Plato's School , ‖ ‖ Non expedit philosophari alt●ùs , &c. Orig. L. 6. cont. Celsum . philosophized , and disputed upon this , and some other Points with much Obscurity , and as little Certainty . So upon the whole matter , in the fourth and fifth hundred year , you see here 's none that constantly and perspicuously affirm it . And as for S. Augustine he a a Constat Animas purgari post hanc vitam , S. August . Lib. 21. Civ . Dei , c. 24. vide . said , and b b Justorum flagella non incipiunt post mortem , sed desinunt . Et Anima mox in Paradisum , &c. S. Aug. contr. Foelicianum , c. 15. Et duo tantum loca esse , &c. S. Aug. Ser. 19. de verb. Apost. c. 15. Et L. 21 de Civ . Dei , c. 16 fine , Negat , nisi sit Ignis ille in Consummatione saecult . unsaid it , and c c Quaeri potest , &c. S. Aug. in Enchirid. c. 69. Forsitan verum est , &c. S Aug. L. 21. de Civ . Dei , c. 26. Quid S Paulus senserit , 1 Cor. 3. de Igne illo , male intelligentiores , & doctiores andire , S. Aug. L. de Fide & Oper. c. 16. at the last left it doubtful ; which had it then been received as a Point of Faith , he durst not have done . Indeed then in S. Gregory the Great 's time , in the beginning of the sixth Age , Purgatory was grown to some perfection . For S. d d S. Greg. in Psal. 3. Poenitentialem princ . Gregory himself is at Scio ( 't was but at Puto a little before ) I know that some shall be Expiated in Purgatory flames . And therefore I will easily give Bellarmine all that follow . For after this time Purgatory was found too warm a business to be suffered to Cool again . And in the after Ages , more were frighted , than led by proof into the Belief of it .

Num. 17 Now by this we see also , That it could not be a Tradition ; For then we might have traced it by the smoke to the Apostles times . Indeed Bellarmine would have it such a Tradition . For he tells us out of S. * * Quod Universa tenet Ecclesia , nec Conciliis institutum , sed semper retentum est , non nisi Authoritate Apostolicá traditum rectissimè creditur , S. Aug. L. 4 ▪ de Bapt. Cont. Donatist , c. 24. Nec ad Summ●s Pontifices referri potest . Addit Melch. Canus , L. 3. de Locis , c. 4. prin. Augustine , That that is rightly believed to be delivered by Apostolical Authority , which the whole Church holds , and hath ever held , and yet is not Instituted by any Councel . And he adds , That Purgatory is such a Tradition , so Constantly held in the whole Church , Greek , and Latine . And † † Non invenimus initium hujus dogmatis , sed omnes veteres Graeci & Latini , &c. Bellar. L. ● . de Purg. c. 11. §. De tertio modo . that we do not finde any beginning of this Belief . Where I shall take the boldness to Observe these three things . First , that the Doctrine of Purgatory was not held ever in the whole Catholike Church of Christ . And this appears by the proofs of ‖ ‖ L. 1. de Purg. c. 6. Bellarmine himself produced , and I have * * §. 38. N. 16. before examined . For there 't is manifest , that scarce two Fathers directly affirm the belief of Purgatory for full six hundred years after Christ . Therefore Purgatory is no Matter of Faith , nor to be believed as descending from Apostolical Authority , by S. Augustine's Rule . Secondly , that we can finde a beginning of this Doctrine , and a Beginner too , namely Origen . And neither Bellarmine , nor any other is able to shew any one Father of the Church that said it before him . Therefore Purgatory is not to be believed as a Doctrine delivered by Apostolical Authority , by Bellarmine's own rule ; For it hath a Beginning . Thirdly , I observe too , that Bellarmine cannot well tell where to lay the foundation of Purgatory , that it may be safe . For first , he labours to found it upon Scripture . To that end † † Bellar. L. 1. de Purgat . c. 3. & 4. he brings no fewer then ten places out of the Old Testament , and nine out of the New , to prove it . And yet fearing lest these places be strained ( as indeed they are ) and so too weak to be laid under such a vast pile of Building , as Purgatory is ‖ ‖ De tertio modo perspicuum est , &c. Bellar. L. 1. de Purgat . c. 11. §. Tertiò ex Verbo , &c. & §. De tertio modo , & c. , he flies to unwritten Tradition . And by this Word of God unwritten , he says 't is manifest , that the Doctrine of Purgatory was delivered by the Apostles . Sure if Nineteen places of Scripture cannot prove it , I would be loth to flie to Tradition . And if Recourse to Tradition be necessary , then certainly those places of Scripture made not the proof they were brought for . And once more , how can Bellarmine say here , That we finde not the Beginning , hujus dogmatis , of this Article ; when he had said before , that he had found it in the Nineteen places of Scripture ? For if in these places he could not finde the beginning of the Doctrine of Purgatory , he is false while he says he did : And if he did finde it there , then he is false here in saying , we finde no beginning of it , And for all his Brags of * * Omnes veteres Graci & Latini , &c. Bellarm. L. 1. de Parga . c. 11. §. Detertio modo . Omnes Veteres , all the Ancient Greek and Latine do constantly teach Purgatory . Yet † † De Purgatorio in Antiquis Scriptoribus potissinùm Graecis ferè nulla mentio est . Quâ de causâ usque in hodiernum diem Purgatorium non est ●d Graecis creditum , Alphon. à Castro . L. 8. advers. Haeres . Verbo Indulgentia . Alphons . à Castro deals honestly and plainly , and tells us , That the mention of Purgatory in Ancient Writers is ferè nulla , almost none at all , especially in the Greoks .

And he addes , That hereupon Purg●tory 〈◊〉 not believed by the Graecians to this very day ▪ And what no● , I pray , after all this , may I not so much as del●berately doubt of this ▪ because 't is now Defined ▪ and but now in a manner and thus ▪ No sure . So A. C. tells you . Doubt ▪ No ▪ For when you had fooled the Archbishop of Spalat● ▪ back to Rome ▪ there you either made him say , or said it for him ▪ ‖ ‖ Purgatorium nullum esse ▪ est manifeste 〈◊〉 ▪ &c ▪ M. Anton. de Do 〈…〉〈…〉 . P●●●s . 10●● . p. 17. Me●●●a , 〈◊〉 , & ●●●●qua , qu● su●●●●us 〈◊〉 in Ecclesia 〈…〉 Artic●ls Fundamentales , 〈…〉 Revelation , qu●m 〈…〉 ▪ Ibid p. 32. And so much A. C. himself says of all Points in which in the Doctrine of the Faith 〈◊〉 differ from them . In his Relation of the first Conference , p. 28. ( for in Print it is , and under his Name ) That since 't is now defined by the Church , a man is as much bound to believe there is a Purgatory , as that there is a Trinity of Persons in the Godhead ▪ How far comes this short of Blasphemy ▪ to make the Trinity , and Purgatory , things alike and equally Credible ?

Num. 18 Yea , but A. C. will give you a Reason , why no man may deliberately doubt , much less deny any thing that is defined by a A. C. p. 71 ▪ General Councel . And his Reason is , Because every such doubt and denyal is a breach from the one saving faith . This is a very good reason , if it be true . But how appears it to be true ? How ? why it takes away ( saith A. C. ) Infallible credit from the A. C. p. 71. Church , and so the Divine Revelation not being sufficiently applied , it cannot according to the ordinary course of Gods providence breed Infallible Belief in us . Why but deliberately to doubt , and constantly to deny , upon the grounds and in the manner * * ● 38. Na. ● . aforesaid , doth not take away Infallible credit from the whole Church , but onely from the Definition of a General Councel some way or other misled , And that in things not absolutely Necessary to all mens Salvation ; for of such things † † Though every Thing defined to be a Divine Truth in General Councels is not absolutely necessary to be expresly known , and actually believed by all sorts , &c. A. C. p. 71. A. C. here speaks expresly . Now to take away Infallible credit from some Definitions of General Councels , in things not absolutely necessary to Salvation , is no breach upon the one saving Faith which is necessary , nor upon the Credit of the Catholike Church of Christ in things absolutely necessary ▪ for which onely it had Infallible assistance promised . So that no breach being made upon the Faith , nor no Credit which ever it had being taken from the Church , the Divine Revelation may be ▪ and is as sufficiently applied as ever it was ; and in the ordinary course of Gods providence may breed as Infallible belief in things necessary to Salvation , as ever it did .

Num. 19 But A. C. will prove his Reason before given , and therefore A. C. p. 71. he asks out of S. Paul , Rom. 10 ▪ Now shall men believe unless Rom. 10. 14 , 15. they hear ? How shall they hear without a Preacher ? And how shall they preach ( to wit ▪ Infallibly ) ●●less they be sen● , that is , from God , and infallibly assisted by his Spirit ? Here 's that which I have twice at least spoken to already , namely , That A. C. by this will make every Priest in the Church of Rome that hath Learning enough to preach , and dissents not from that Church , an Infallible Preacher ; which no Father of the Primitive Church did ever assume to himself , nor the Church give him . And yet the Fathers of the Primitive Church were sent , and from God , were assisted , and by God , and did sufficiently propose to men the Divine Revelation , and did by it beget and breed up Faith , saving Faith , in the Souls of men : Though * * Alios ( ab 〈◊〉 Ca●●●itae Scriptur● ) ita 〈…〉 quantalibet sanctitate doctr 〈…〉 , non ideo vtrum ●●tem , q●●d ●●si ita 〈◊〉 , vel scripserunt . 〈◊〉 1. q. 1. A. 8. ad ▪ 2. Ex S. Aug. Ep. 〈…〉 non cre●●● , nisi Demonstr Demonstr 〈…〉 accipias ex sacris Literi● . S. Cyril Hierosol . Cat. no one among them since the Apostles , was an Infallible Preacher . And A. C. should have done very well here to have made it manifest , That this Scripture , How shall they preach ( to wit , infallibly ) is so interpreted by Union , Consent of Fathers , and Definitions of Councels , as he † † A. C. p. 〈…〉 bragged before , that they use to interpret Scripture : For I do not finde How shall they preach ( to wit , ‖ ‖ Verba hac Apostole 〈◊〉 possunt intelligi de Fide insusa , illa enim immediatè à Deo creata est , & non est ex auditu ut haec . Apertissimè colligitar ex Biel in 3 Sent. D. 23. q. 2. A. 2. Co●●l . 1. Ergo Fides acquisita necessari● est . Ibid. sed praeter Acquisitam , Insusa etiam requiritur , & non solum propter Intentionem Actus , sed etiam propter Assensum & Certitudinem . Quia non potest esse firmus Assensus à Fide acquisita . Quia per cum nu●us credi , alicui , nisi quem scit posse falli & fallere , licet credat cum non Velle fallere . Scotus in 3 Sent. D. 23. q. unica . Therefore in the Judgment of your own School , your Preachers can both deceive and be deceived . And therefore certainly are not Infallible . And M. Canus very expresly makes this but an Introduction to Infallible Faith . Primum ergo id status juxta Cor●munem Leg●m aliqua exteriora & humana incitamenta necessaria esse , quibus ad Evangelli fidem inducamur . Quomodo enim credent ei , quem non audierunt , &c. Canus ● . 2. de ●ocis , c. 8. S. Primum ergo . Et iterum . Si Fides infusa ita Fidei acquisitae uiteretur , tanquam suo Fundamento ; ipsum Fundamentum Fidei nostrae non esset Divina , sed Humana Veritas . Ibid. S Cui & tertium . Therefore surely A. C. abuses this place of the Apostle very boldly . Infallibly ) to be the Comment of any one of the Fathers ; or any other approved Author ; And let him shew it , if he can .

Num. 20 After this ( for I see the good man is troubled , and forward A. C. p. 71. and backward he goes ) he falls immediately upon this Question : If a whole General Councel defining what is Divine Truth , be not believed to be sent and assisted by Gods Spirit , and consequently of Infallible Credit ; what man in the world can be said to be of Infallible Credit ? Well , first , A. C. hath very ill luck in fitting his Conclusion to his Premises , and his Consequent to his Antecedent ; And so 't is here with him . For a General Councel may be assisted by God's Spirit , and in a great measure too , and in a greater than any private man not inspired , and yet not consequently be of Infallible credit : for all assistance of God's Spirit reaches not up to Infallibility . I hope the Antient Bishops , and Fathers of the Primitive Church were assisted by God's Spirit , and in a plentiful measure too , and yet A. C. himself will not say they were Infallible . And secondly , for the Question it self , If a General Councel be not , what man in the world can be said to be of Infallible Credit ? Truly I 'll make you a ready Answer , No man . Not the Pope himself ? No : Let God and his Word be true , and every man a Lyer , Rom. 3. for so , more or less , every man will be found to be . And this is Rom. 3. 4. neither dammage to the Church , nor wrong to the person of any .

Num. 21 But then A. C. asks a shrewder Question than this . If such A. C. p. 71. a Councel lawfully called , continued and confirmed , may erre in defining any one Divine Truth , how can we be Infallibly certain of any other Truth defined by it ? For if it may erre in one , §. 10. N. 15. why not in another , and another , and so in all ? 'T is most true , if such a Councel may erre in one , it may in another , and another , and so in all of like nature : I say in all of like nature . And A. C. may remember he expressed himself a little A. C. p. 71. before , to speak of the Defining of such Divine Truths as are not absolutely necessary to be expresly known and actually believed of all sorts of men . Now there is , there can be no necessity of an Infallible certainty in the whole Catholike Church , and much less in a General Councel , of thing not * * §. 21. N. 5. absolutely necessary in themselves . For Christ did not intend to leave an Infallibe certainty in his Church to satisfie either Contentious , or Curious , or Presumptuous Spirits . And therefore in things not Fundamental , not Necessary , 't is no matter if Councels erre in one , and another , and a third , the whole Church having power and means enough to see that no Councel erre in Necessary things , and this is certainty enough for the Church to have ▪ or for Christians to expect ; especially since the Foundation is so strongly and so plainly laid down in Scripture and the Creed , that a modest man might justly wonder why any man should run to any later Councel , at least for any Infallible certainty .

Num. 22 Yet A. C. hath more Questions to ask ; and his next is , How A. C. p. 72. we can ( according to the ordinary Course ) be Infallibly assured that it erres in one , and not in another , when it equally by one and the same Authority defines both to be Divine Truth ? A. C. taking here upon him to defend M. Fisher the Jesuite , could not but see what I had formerly written concerning this difficult Question about General Councels . And to all that ( being large ) he replied little or nothing . Now when he thinks that may be forgotten , or as if he did not at all lye in his way , he here turns Questionist , to disturb that business , and indeed the Church , as much as he can . But to this Question also I answer again , If any General Councel do now erre , either it erres in things absolutely necessary to Salvation , or in things not necessary . If it erre in things Necessary , we can be infallibly assured by the Scripture , the Creeds , the four first Councels , and the whole Church , where it erres in one , and not in another . If it be in non necessariis , in things not necessary , 't is not requisite that we should have for them an infallible assurance . As for that which follows , it is notoriously both cunning , and false . 'T is false to suppose that a General Councel defining two things for Divine Truths , and erring in one , but not erring in another , doth define both equally by one , and the same Authority . And 't is cunning , because these words ( by the same Authority ) are equivocal , and must be distinguished , that the Truth , which A. C. would hide , may appear . Thus then , suppose a General Councel erring in one point , and not in another , it doth define both , and equally by the same delegated Authority which that Councel hath received from the Catholike Church , But it doth not define both , and much less equally , by the same Authority of the Scripture , ( which must be the Councels Rule , as well as private mens ) no nor by the same Authority of the whole Catholike Church ( who did not intentionally give them equal power to define Truth , and errour for Truth . ) And I hope A. C. dares not say the Scripture ( according to which all Councels , that will uphold Divine Truth , must Determine ) doth equally give either ground or power to define Errour and Truth .

Num. 23 To his former Questions A. C. adds , That if we leave this to A. C. p. 72. be examined by any private man , this examination not being Infallible , had need to be examined by another , and this by another without end , or ever coming to Infallible certainty necessarily required in that one faith which is necessary to salvation , and to that peace and unity which ought to be in the Church . Will this inculcating the same thing never be left ? I told the Jesuite * * §. 32. N. 5. §. 33. Consid. 7. Num. 4. before , that I give no way to any private man to be Judge of a General Councel : And there also I shewed the way how an erring Councel might be rectified , and the peace of the Church either preserved or restored , without lifting any private spirit above a Councel , and without this process in Infinitum ( which A. C. so much urges ; and which is so much declined in all † † Arist. 1. Post. Tex . 6. & 4. Metaph. T. 14. Sciences . ) For as the understanding of a man must always have somewhat to rest upon , so must his Faith . But a ‖ ‖ §. 38. Nu. 15. private man , first for his own satisfaction , and after for the Churches , if he have just cause , may consider of , and examine by the * * Hic non loqui●ur ●e De●is●●●● , 〈◊〉 Determinatione Doctrinali , qu● ad ●●●●quemque virum peritum spectare dignoscitur ; sed de Authoritativ● & Judiciali , &c. la. Almain . L. de Author ▪ Eccles. c. 10. Pri● . Judgment of discretion , though not of power , even the Definitions of a General Councel . But A. C. concludes well , That an Infallible certainty is necessary for that one Faith which is necessary to salvation . And of that ( as I expressed † † §. 38. Nu. 1. before ) a most infallible certainty we have already in the Scripture , the Creeds , and the four first General Councels , to which for things Necessary and Fundamental in the Faith , we need no assistance from other General Councels . And some of your ‖ ‖ Sunt qui nescio quà ductiratione sentiunt non esse opus Generali Concillo ( ●e Constant●en● loquitur ) dicentes , omnia bene à Patribus nostris Ordinata ac Constituta , modò ab omnibus ●egiti●● & fid●liter ser●●rentur . Fatemur equid●m i● ipsum esse verissimum . Tamen cum nihil ferè servetur , &c. Pet. de Aliaco . ● . de reformat . Eccles. ●ine . So that after-Councels are rather to D●●r●● for Observance , than to make any new Determinations of the Faith . own , very honest and very Learned , were of the same Opinion with me . And for the peace and unity of the Church in things absolutely necessary , we have the same infallible direction that we have for Faith . But in Things not necessary , ( though they be Divine Truths also ) if about them Christian men do differ , 't is no more than they have done , more or less in all Ages of the Church ; and they may differ ▪ and yet preserve the * * Non omnis Error in his que fidei sunt , est aut Infidelitas , aut Haeresis . Holkot . in 1 Sent. q. 1. ad 4. ● . One necessary Faith , and † † Scimus quosdam quod semel imbiberint nolle deponere , nec propositum suum facilè mutare , sed salvo inter Collegaa pacis & concordia vinculo , quaedam propria quae apud se semel si●t usurpata , retiuere . Qu● in re nec nos vim cuiquam facimus , aut legem damus , &c. S. Cypr. ● . 2. Epist. 1. Concordia quae est Charitatis effectus , est unio Voluntatum , non Opinionum , Tho. 2. 2. q. 37. Ar. 1. c. Dissensio de Minimis , & de Opinionibus repugnat quidem paci perfectae , in qua plenè verita● cognoscetur , & omnis appetitus complebitur . Non tamen repugnat paci imperfectae , qua●●s habetur in via . Tho. 2. 2● . q. 29. A 3. ad 2. Charity too , entire , if they be so well minded . I confess it were heartily to be wished , that in these things also men might be all of one mind , and one judgment , to which the Apostle exhorts , ‖ ‖ 1 Cor. 1. 10 Phil. 2. 2. 1 Cor. 1. But this cannot be hoped for till the Church be Triumphant over all humane frailties which here hang thick and close about her . The want both of Unity and Peace proceeding too often , even where Religion is pretended , from Men and their Humours , rather than from Things and Errours to be found in them .

Num. 24 And so A. C. tells me , That it is not therefore ( as I would perswade ) A. C. p. 72. the fault of Councels Definitions , but the pride of such as will prefer , and not submit their private Judgments , that lost , and continues the loss of peace and unity of the Church , and the want of certainty in that one afore-said soul-saving Faith . Once again I am bold to tell A. C. there is no want of certainty , most infallible certainty of That one soul-saving Faith . And if for other opinions which flutter about it , there be a difference , a dangerous difference , as at this day there is , yet necessary it is not , that therefore , or for prevention thereof , there should be such a Certainty , an Infallible Certainty in these things . For he understood himself well that said , Oportet esse Haereses , 1 Cor. 11. There must , 1 Cor. 11. 19. there will be Heresies . And wheresoever that Necessity lies , 't is out of doubt enough to prove , that Christ never left such an Infallible Assurance as is able to prevent them : Or such a Mastering Power in his Church , as is able to over-awe them ; but they come with their Oportet about them ; and they rise and spring in all Ages very strangely . But in particular for that which first caused , and now continues the loss of Unity in the Church of Christ , as I make no doubt but that the Pride of men is one Cause , so yet can I not think that Pride is the adaequate and sole Cause thereof . But in part Pride caused it , and Pride on all sides ; Pride in some that would not at first , nor will not since submit their private judgments , where , with good Conscience , they may , and ought . And Pride in others that would not first , nor will not yet mend manifest , great , and dangerous errours , which with all good Conscience they ought to do . But 't is not Pride , not to submit to known and gross Errours : And the Definitions of some Councels ( perhaps the Lateran , Constance , and Trent ) have been greater and more urgent Causes of breach of Unity , than the Pride of men hath been ; which yet I shall never excuse , where-ere it is .

Num. 25 How far this one soul-saving Faith extends , A. C. tells me I have confessed it not a work for my Pen : But , he says , it is to be A. C. p. 72. learned from that One , Holy , Catholike , Apostolike , always Visible , and Infallible Romane Church ; of which the Lady , once doubting , is now fully satisfied , &c. Indeed ( though A. C. sets this down with some scorn , which I can easily pass over ) 't is true that thus * * §. 38. Nu. 1. I said . There is a Latitude in Faith , especially in reference to different mens Salvation : But to set a Bound to this , and strictly to define it ; Just thus far you must Believe in every particular , or incur domnation , is no work for my Pen. Thus I said , and thus I say still . For though the Foundation be one and the same in all , yet a † † § 38. Num. 8. Latitude there is , and a large one too , when you come to Consider not the Foundation common to all , but things necessary to many particular mens Salvation . For to whomsoever God hath given more , of him shall more be required , ‖ ‖ S. Luc. 12. 48. Unicuique secuo●●m proportionem suam , secunaù● disserentiam Scien●iae vel Ignorantiae , &c. Et post●a . Extenditur doctrina haec , non solù● ad Donum Scientiae , &c. Caietan . in S. Luc. 12. Ecce quomodo Scientia aggravat Culpam . Unde Gregorius , &c. Gorran . in S. Luc. 12. Therefore many things may be necessary for a knowing mans Salvasion , which are not so for a poor Ignorant soul. Si qui● de Antecessoribus nostris vel ignorentér , vel simplicitèr non hoc observavit , & tenuit , quod nos Domnius facere exemplo & magisterio suo doçuit , potest simplicitati ejus de Indulgentid Domini Venia concedi . Nobis verè non poterit ignosci , qui nunc à Domino adm●niti & instructi sumus . S. Cyprlan . L. 2. Epist. 3. S. Luc. 12. as well in Belief , as in Obedience ▪ and Performance . And the gifts of God , both ordinary and extraordinary , to particular men , are so various , as that for my part I hold it impossible for the ablest Pen that is to express it . And in this respect I * * § 38. Num. 1. said it with Humility and Reason ; That to set these Bounds , was no work for my Pen. Nor will I ever take upon me to express that Tenet , or Opinion ( the denial of the Foundation onely excepted ) which may shut any Christian out of heaven . And A. C. I believe you know very well , to what a narrow S●antling , some † † Articuli Fidei sunt sicut Principia per se nota . Et sicut quaedam eorum in aljis implicitè continentur , it a omnes Articuli implicitè continentur in aliquibus primis Credibilibus , &c. secundum illudad Heb. 11. Tho. 2. ● a , q. 1. A. 10. c. In absoluto nobis & facili est aeternitas : Je●um suscitatum à mortuis per Deum ●redere , & ipsum esse Dominum confiter● , &c. S. Hilar. L. 10. de Trin. ad finem . S. Matth. 22. 37. Learned of your own side bring the very Foundation it self , rather than they will lose any that lay hold on Christ , the Son of God , and Redeemer of the World . And as Christ Epitomizes the whole Law of Obedrence into these two great Commandments ; The love of God , and our Neighbour , S. Mat. 22. So the Apostle Epitomizes the whole Law of Belief into these two great Assents : That God is ; and That he is a rewarder of them that seek him : Heb. 11. that seek him in Christ . And S. Heb. 11. 6. Peter was full of the Holy Ghost , when he exprest it , That there is no salvation to them that seek it in , or by another Name , Act. 4. Acts 4. 12.

Num. 26 But since this is no work for my Pen , it seems A. C. will not say 't is a work † † And yet before in this Conference , & apud A. C. p. 42. the Jesuire whom he defends hath said it expresly , that all those are Pundamental which are necessary to Salvation . for his . But he tells us , * * A. C. p. 72. 'T is to be learned of the One , Holy , Catholike , Apostolike , always Visible , and Infallible Romane Church . ' Titles enough given to the Romane Church ; and I wish she deserv'd them all , for then we should have peace . But 't is far otherwise . One she is , as a particular Church , but not The One. Holy she would be counted ; but the world may see , if it will not blinde it self , of what value Holiness is in that Court and Country . Catholike she is not , in any sense of the word ; for she is not the † † Romana Ecclesia particularis . Bellar. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. § 1. Catholica autem est illa quae diffusa●est p●r universum Orb●m . S. Cyril . Hierosol . Catech. 18. Universal , and so not Catholike in extent . Nor is she sound in Doctrine , & in things which come neer upon the Foundation too ; so not ‖ ‖ Catholica enim dicitur Ecclesia illa quae universalitèr docet sine ullo defectu , vel differentiâ dogmatum . S. Cyril . Hierosol . Catech. 18. Unde Augustinus subscripsit se Episcopum Catholica Ecclesiae Hipponiregensis , L. 1. de Actis cum Foelice Manich. c. 20. Et l. 2. c. 1. Et Catholicà Alexandrinorum . Soz. L. 1. Hist. 9. Et L. 2. c. 3. And so every particular Church is or may be called Catholike , and that truly , so long as it teaches Catholike Doctrine . In which sense the Particular Roman Church was called Catholike , so long as it taught all and only those things to be de Fide , which the Catholike Church it self maintain'd . But now Rome doth not so . Catholike in Belief . Nor is she the Prime Mother-Church of Christianity ; * * Suprâ . § 35. Num. 9. Other Churches beside the Romane are called Matres , and Originales Ecclesiae , as in Tertul. de prisceipt . advers. Heres. c. 21. Et Ecclesia Hierosolymitana quae aliarum omnium● Mater . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. Theodoret. L. 5. Hist. Eccl. c. 9. ex ●ibello Synodico à Concil. Constantinopol. 2. transmiss● ad Concilium sub Damaso tum Roma coactum . Et Constantinopolitana , Ecclesia dicitur omnium aliarum Caput . Cod. L. 1. Tit. 2. L●g . 24. That is , not simply of all Churches , but of all in that Patriarchate . And ●so Rome is the Head of all in the Romane Patriarchate . Jerusalem was that ; and so not Catholike as a Fountain , or Original , or as the Head , or Root of the Catholike .

Num. 27 And because many Romanists object here ( though A. C. doth it not ) that S. Cyprian called the † † Et Ecclesiae Catholicae radicem & Matricem agnoscereat & tenerent . S. Cyp. L. 4. Epist. 8. Romane Church , The Root and Matrix of the Catholike Church of Christ ; I hope I shall have leave to explain that difficult place also . First then , S. Cyprian names not Rome . That stands onely in the Margin , and was placed there as his particular judgement led ‖ ‖ Edit. Basili●ns . 1530. And Sima●ca also applies this speech of S. Cyprian to Rome Tit. 24. § 17. And so also Pamellus upon S. Cyprian . But they wrong him . him that set out S. Cyprian . Secondly , the true Story of that Epistle , and that which led S. Cyprian into this Expression , was this . Cornelius then chosen Pope , expostulates with S. Cyprian , That his Letters to Rome were directed onely to the Clergie there , and not to Him ; and takes it ill , as if S. Cyprian had thereby seemed to disapprove his Election . S. Cyprian replies , That by reason of the Schism mov'd then by Novation , it was uncertain in Africk which of the Two had the more Canonical Right to the See of Rome ; and that therefore he nam'd him not : But yet that during this uncertainty , he exhorted all that sailed thither , ut Ecclesiae Catholicae Radicem & Matricem agnoscerent & tenerent ; That in all their carriage they should acknowledge , and so hold themselves unto the Unity of the Catholike Church , which is the Root and Matrix of it , and the onely way to avoid participation in the Schism . And that this must be S. Cyprian's meaning , I shall thus prove . First , because , This could not be his meaning or Intention , That the Sea of Rome was the Root or Matrix of the Catholike Church . For if he had told them so , he had left them in as great , or greater difficulty , than he found them . For there was then an Open and an Apparent Schism in the Church of Rome . Two Bishops , Cornelius and Novation ; Two Congregations , which respectively attended and observed them . So that a perplexed Question must needs have divided their thoughts , which of these Two had been that Root and Matrix of the Catholike Church . Therefore had S. Cyprian meant to pronounce Rome the Root and Matrix of the Catholike Church , he would never have done it at such a time , when Rome it self was in Schism . Whereas in the other sense , the Counsel is good and plain , Namely , that they should hold themselves to the Unity and Communion of the Catholike Church , which is the Root of it . And then necessarily they were to suspend their Communion there , till they saw how the Catholike Church did incline , to approve , or disaprove the Election of the One , or the Other . And thus S. Cyprian frees himself to Cornelius from the very least Touch of Schism . Secondly , Because this sense comes home to * * Baron . Annal. 254. Num. 64. where he cites this Epistle . Baronius . For he affirms that S. Cyprian and his Colleagues the African Bishops did Communionem suspendere , suspend their Communion until they heard by Caldonius & Fortunatus , whose the undoubted right was . So it seems S. Cyprian gave that Counsel to these Travellers , which himself followed . For if Rome , during the Schism , and in so great uncertainty , had yet been Radix Ecclesiae Catholicae , Root of the Catholike Church of Christ , I would fain know , how S. Cyprian , so great and famous an Assertor of the Churches Unity , durst once so much as think of suspending Communion with her . Thirdly , Because this sense will be plain also by other Passages out of other Epistles of S. Cyprian . For writing to Jubaianus an Africane Bishop against the Novatians , who then infested those parts , and durst Rebaptize Catholike Christians , he saith thus . † † Nos autemqui Ecclesiae unius Caput & Radicem tenemus , pro certo sci●●● , & credimus , ●ihil extra Ecclesiam lic●●● , & Baptismatis quod est unum ; Caput nos esse , ubi & ipse Baptizatus p●ths fuerat , quando Divinae ●ivitatis , & Rationem & veritatem tenebat . S. Cypr. ad Jubain . Epist. 73. Edit. Pam●l . But we who hold the Head and Root of One Church , do know for certain , and believe , that nothing of this is lawful out of the Catholike Church ; And that of Baptism , which is but One , we are the Head , where he himself was at first Baptized , when he held the Ground and Verity of Divine Unity . Now I conceive 't is all one , or at least as Argumentative to all purposes , to be Caput or Radix Baptismatis , Head or Root of Baptism , as Head or Root of the Church . For there 's but One Baptism , as well as but One Church , and that is the entrance into this . And S. Cyprian affirms and includes himself , Nos esse Caput , that we are the Head of Baptism . Where yet ( I pray observe it ) he cannot by Nos , We , mean his own Person ( though if he did , he were the more Opposite to Rome ) much less can he mean the Romane Church , as it is a Particular , and stands separate from others . For then how could he say , Nos esse Cap●t , that we are the Head ? Therefore he must needs mean the Unity and Society of the Church Catholike , which the Novatians had then left , and whereof he and his Church were still Members . Besides most manifest it is , that he calls that Church Caput Baptismatis the Head of Baptism , where Novatian was Baptized ( they are his own words ) and probable it is that was Rome , Because that Schismatick was a Roman Priest . And yet for all this S. Cyprian says , No● esse Caput Baptismatis , that we are the Head of Baptism , though he were at Carthage . By which it is plain , That as Caput is parallel to Radix , and Matrix : So also that by Caput , the head of Baptism , he includes together with Rome all the other members of the Church Universal . Again , S. * * Elaborarent ut ad Catholicae Ecclesie unitatem sci●●i corporis membra compontrent & Christianae Charitatis vinculum c●pularent . Se●● quontam diversae partis obstinata & inflexibilis pertinacia non tantum Radicis & Matris sinum atqut complexum recusavit , sed etiam gliscence & in pejus recrudescente discordiâ , Episcopum sibi constituit , &c. S. Cypr. ● . 2. Epist. 10. Cyprian writes to Cornelius and censures the Schismatical Carriage of the Novatians at Rome . And tells him farther , that he had sent Caldonius and Fortunatus to labour Peace in that Church , that so they might be reduced to , and composed in the Unity of the Catholike Church . But because the Obstinate , and inflexible pertinacy of the other Party had not onely refused Radicis & Matris sinum , the bosome of their Mother and embracings of their Root , but the Schism increasing and growing raw to the worse , hath set up a Bishop to it self , &c. Where 't is observable , and I think plain , That S. Cyprian employed his Legates not to bring the Catholike Church to the communion of Rome , but Rome to the Catholike Church . Or to bring the Novatians not onely to Communicate with Cornelius , but with the Church Universal , which was therefore Head and Root in S. Cyprian's judgment , even to Rome it self , as well as to all other , Great , Ancient , or even Apostolical Churches . And this is yet more plain by the sequel . For when those his Legats had laboured to bring those Schismaticks to the Unitie of the Catholike Church ; yet he complains their Labour was lost . And why ? Why ? because recusabant Radicis & Matris sinum , they refused the Bosome of the Root , and the Mother . Therefore it must needs be ▪ that in S. Cyprian's sense , these two Unit as Catholicae Ecclesiae , the unity of the Catholike Church . And Radicis , or Matricis Sinus ; or Complex●● , the Bosome , or Embracing of the Root , or the Mother , are all one . And then Radix and Matrix are not words by which he expresses the Roman Sea , in particular , but he denotes by them the Unity of the Church Catholike . Fourthly , Because † † T●t at tantae Reclesiae . Una est illa a● Apostolis prima , ex quâ Omnes . Sic omnes primae , & ●mnes Apostolicae , dum unam omnes probant Unitatem , Terr . de praes. advers. Haer. ● . 20. Porro unam esse primam Apostolicam , ex quâ reliquae . Hanc nulli loco affigit B Rhenanus Annot. in Argumento , Tert. de praescript . &c. Null● loco . Therefore not at Rome . But these words [ Hanc nulli loco affi●it ] deleant●r , says the Spanish Inquisition upon R●en●●●s , printed at Madrid An. 1●84 Tertullian seems to me to agree in the same sense . For saith he , these so many and great Churches founded by the Apostles , taken all of them together , are that One Church from the Apostles out of which are All. So all are First , and all Apostolike , while they all allow and prove Unam Unitatem , One Unity . Nor can any possibly understand this of any Particular Church , but subordinately . As S. Gregory Nazianzen says the Church of Caesarea was * * G●●g . Nazia● . says the Church of C●saria was Mater propè omnium Ecclesiarum . Epist. 18. Mater , the Mother of almost all Churches ; which must needs be understood of some Neighbouring Churches , not of the whole Catholike Church . And where † † Pamel . ●● Tertul . d● praescript . adv●s . Haeres . c. 21. Nu. 129. Pamelius speaks of Original and Mother-Churches , he names six , and others ▪ and Rome in the last place . Therefore certainly no Particular Church can be the Root or Matrix of the Catholike ; But she is rooted in her own Unity , down from the Apostles , and no where else extra Deum ▪ And this is farther manifest by the Irreligious act of the Emperour Adrian . For he intending to root out the Faith of Christ , took this course . He Consecrated Simulacrum Jovis ; the Image of Jupiter in the very place where Christ suffer'd , and prophaned Bethlehem with the Temple of Adonis . ‖ ‖ Ut quasi ▪ Radix & Fundamentum Ecclesia tolleretur , si in 〈◊〉 loc● Idola 〈◊〉 in quibus Christus ●atu● est , &c. S. Paul ●us Epist , 11 ▪ ad Sev●rum . To this end , that the Root , as it were , and the Foundation of the Church might be taken away , if in those places Idols might be worshipped , in which Christ himself was born , and suffered , &c. By which it is most evident , That either Jerusalem was the Root of the Catholike Church , if any Particular Church were so ; Or rather , that Adrian was deceived , ( as being an Heathen he well might ) in that he thought the Universal Church had any particular or Local Root of its Being : Or that he could destroy it all by laying it waste in any one place whatsoever . And S. Augustine I think is full for this , That the Catholike Church must have a Catholike Root or Matrix too . For * * Hareses omnis de illâ exi●runt tanquam sar●●●ta ▪ ●nutilia de Vite pr●cisa . Ipsa autem ma●●t in Radic● sud ▪ &c. S. Aug. de Symb. ad 〈◊〉 . L. 1. ● . 6. he tells us , That all Herestes whatsoever went out de illâ , out of the Catholike Church . For de illâ there can be out of no other . For all Heresies did not go out of any one Particular Church . He goes on . They were cut off de Vite , from this Catholike Vine still , as unprofitable Branches . Ipsa autem , but this Catholike Church remains in Radice suâ , in in its own Root , in its own Vine , in its own Charity , which must needs be as ample , and as Catholike as it self . Or else , were it any Particular , All Heretical Branches could not be cut off from one Root . And S. Augustine says again , † † Pars Donati non considerat se praecisam esse à Radice Orientalium Ecclesiarum , &c. §. Aug. Ep. 170. p●in . That the Donatists did not consider that they were cut off from the Root of the Eastern Churches . Where you see again , 't is still but One Root of many Churches : And that if any man will have a Particular Root of the Catholike Church , he must have it in the East , not in the West at Rome . And now lastly , besides this out of S. Cyprian to prove his own meaning , ( and sure he is the best interpreter of himself ) and other assisting Proofs , 't is most evident , that in the prime and principal sence , the Catholike Church , and her Unity , is the Head , Root , or Matrix of Rome , and all other Particular Churches ; and not Rome , or any other Particular , the Head , Root , or Matrix of it . For there is a double Root of the Church , as there is of all things else : That is , Radix Essentiae ; the Root , Head , or Matrix of its Essence . And this is the prime sence . For Essence and Being is first in all things . And then there is Radix Existentiae , the Root of its Existence , and formal Being , which always presupposes Being ; And is therefore a sense less Principal . Now to apply this . The Catholike or Universal Church is , and must needs be the Root of Essence and Being to Rome , and all other Particulars . And this is the Principal Root , Head , or Matrix that gives Being . And Rome , but with all other Particular Churches , and no more then other Patriarchal Churches , was and is Radix Existentiae , the Root of The Churches Existence . And this agrees with that known and received Rule in Art : That Universals give Essence to their Particulars , and Particulars supply their Universals with Existence . For as Socrates and every Particular man borrow their Essence from the Species and Definition of a man , which is Universal , but this Universal Nature and Being of Man hath no actual Existence but in Socrates and all other particular men : so , the Church of Rome , and every other particular Church in the world , receive their very Essence and Being of a Church from the Definition of the Catholike Universal Church of Christ ; But this Universal Nature and Being of the Church hath no actual Existence but in Rome and all other Particular Churches , and equal Existence in all her particulars . And should all the Particular Churches in the world fall away from Christ , save onely One ( which God forbid ) yet the Nature , Essence , and Being of the Universal Church would both Exist and Subsist in that one Particular . Out of all which to me most clear it is , That for the Churches Being , the Catholike Church , and that in Unity ( for Ens & Unum , Being , and Being one , are Convertible ) is Radix , the Root , Head , Matrix , Fountain , or Original ( call it what you will ) of Rome , and all other Particular Churches . But Rome is no more than other Churches , the Root , or Matrix of the Catholike Churches Existence , or Place of her actual Residence . And this I say for her Existence only , not the purity or form of her Existence , which is here not considered . But if the Catholike she be not , nor the root of the Catholike Church , yet Apostolike I hope She is . Indeed Apostolike She is , as being the Sea * * Not as Bellarmine would have it , with a Hinc dicitur Apostolica , quia in eâ Successio Episcoporum ab Apostolis deducta est usque ad nos , Bellar. ● . 4. de notis Eccl. c. 8. §. 1. For by this Reason neither Jerusalem , nor Antioch were in their times Apostolike Churches ; Because Succession of Bishops hath not succeeded in them to this day . De Collegis agebatur qui possent , &c. Judicio Apostolicarum Ecclesiarum causam suam integram reservare , S. Aug. Epist. 162. Jo. de Turrecrem . enumerat sex Verbi hujus significationes . Quarum prima est . Apostolica dicitur quia in Apostolis , &c. initiata est . Hos enim instituit qua●i fundamentum Ecclesiae , &c. Jo. de Turrecr . ● . 1 ▪ Summae , c. 18. Et quia Originem sumpsit ab Apostolis , &c. Ibid. ubi dicit etiam S. Patres appossuisse hanc Vocem [ Apostolicam ] in Symbolo suo , supra symbolum Apostolorum , ibid. of One , and he a Prime Apostle . But then not Apostolike , as the Church is called in the Creed from all the Apostles , no nor the † † Ecclesiae Apostolicae , ut Smyrnaeorum , & reliquae ab Apostolis fundatae , Tertul. de praescrip. advers. Haeret. c 32. Percurrae Ecclesias Apostolicas , &c. Habes Corinthum , Philippos , Thessalonicenses , Ephesum , Roman , ibid. c. 32 ▪ Et Pamelius inumerat Hierosolymitanam , Anti●ebenam , Corinthiam , Philippensem , Ephesinam , Romanam . Pamel . ib. c. 21. Num. 129. And it may be observed , that so long ago Tertullian , and so lately Pamelius should should reckon Rome last . Quin & aliae Ecclesiae quae ab his Apostolicae etiam deputantur , at soboles Ecclesiarum Apostolicarum , &c. Tertul. ib. c. 20. Only Apostolike , Visible I may not deny God hath hitherto preserved Her , but for a better end doubtless than they turn it to . But Infallible She was never : Yet if that Lady did as the Jesuite in his close avows , or others will rest satisfied with it , who can help it ? Sure none but God . And by A. C's leave , this ( which I said , is no work for my Pen ) cannot be learned , no not of the One , Holy , Catholike , and Apostolike Church , much less of the Roman . For though the Foundation be one and the same , and sufficiently known by Scripture and the Creeds ; Yet for the building upon the Foundation , the adding to it ; the Detracting from it ; the Joyning other things with it ; The grating upon it : Each of these may be damnable to some , and not to others , according to the Knowledge , Wisdome , means of Information which some have , and others want : And according to the ignorance , simplicity , and want of Information , which some others have ▪ and cannot help : And according to the Negligence , Contempt , Wilfulness , and Malice , with Obstinacy , which some have against the Known Truth ; and all or some of these in different degrees in every particular man . And that in the whole Latitude of mankinde , from the most wise and learned in the School of Christ , to the simplest Idiot that hath been so happy as to be initiated into the Faith by Baptism . Now the Church hath not this knowledge of all particulars , Men , and Conditions , nor can she apply the Conditions to the Men. And therefore cannot teach just how far every man must believe , as it relates to the possibility , or impossibility of his salvation in every particular . And that which the Church cannot teach , men cannot learn of her . She can teach the Foundation , and men were happy if they would learn it , and the Church more happy would she teach nothing but that as necessary to Salvation ; for certainly nothing but that is Necessary . Now then whereas after all this , the Jesuite tells us , that

Upon this and the precedent Conferences , the Lady rested in judgment fully satisfied ( as she told a confident Friend ) of the Truth of the Roman Churches faith . Yet upon frailty and fear to offend the King , she yielded to go to Church ; for which she was after very sorry , as some of her friends can testifie .

§ 39 Num. 1 This is all personal . And how that Honourable Lady was then setled in Conscience , how in Judgement , I know nor . This , I think , is made clear enough , That that which you said in this and the precedent Conferences could settle neither , unless in some that were setled or setling before . As little do I know what she told any confident friend of her approving the Roman cause ▪ No more whether it were frailty , or fear , or other Motive that made her yield to go to Church , nor how sorry she was for it , nor who can testifie that sorrow . This I am sure of , if she repent , and God forgive her other sins ▪ she will more easily be able to Answer for her coming to Church , than for her leaving of the Church of England , and following the superstitions and errours which the Romane Church hath added in Point of Faith , and the Worship of God . For the Lady was then living , when I answered thus .

Num. 2 Now whereas I said , the Lady would far more easily be able to answer for her coming to Church , than for her leaving the A. C. p. 73. Church of England ; To this A. C. excepts , and says , That I neither prove , nor can prove , that it is lawful for one ( perswaded especially as the Lady was ) to go to the Protestant Church . There 's a great deal of Cunning , and as much Malice in this passage : but I shall easily pluck the Sting out of the Tail of this Wisp . And first , I have proved it already through this whole Discourse , and therefore can prove it , That the Church of England is an Orthodox Church . And therefore with the same labour it is proved , that men may lawfully go unto it , and communicate with it ; for so a man not onely may , but ought to do with an Orthodox Church . And a Romanist may communicate with the Church of England , without any Offence in the Nature of the Thing thereby incurred . But if his Conscience , through mis-information , check at it , he should do well in that Case , rather to inform his Conscience , than forsake any Orthodox Church whatsoever . Secondly , A. C. tells me plainly ▪ That I cannot prove that a man so perswaded as the Lady was , may go to the Protestant Church ; that is , That a Romane Catholike may not go to the Protestant Church . Why , I never went about to prove that a Romane Catholike being and continuing such , might against his Conscience , go to the Protestant Church . For these words ( A man perswaded as the Lady is ) are A. C's words ; they are not mine . Mine are not simply that the Lady might , or that she might not : but Comparative they are , That she might more easily answer to God for coming to , than for going from the Church of England . And that is every way most true . For in this doubtful time of hers , when ▪ upon my Reasons given , she went again to Church ; when yet soon after ( as you say at least ) she was sorry for it . I say , at this time she was in heart and resolution a Romano Catholike , or she was not : If she were not , ( as it seems by her doubting she was not then fully resolved ) then my speech is most true , that she might more easily answer God for coming to Service in the Church of England , than for leaving it . For a Protestant she had been , and , for ought I knew , at the end of this Conference , so she was ; and then 't was no sin in it self to come to an Orthodox Church ; nor no sin against her Conscience , she continuing a Protestant , for ought which then appeared to me . But if she then were a Romane Catholike , ( as the Jesuite and A. C. seem confident she was ) yet my speech is true too . For then she might more easily answer God for coming to the Church of England , which is Orthodox , and leaving the Church of Rome , which is Superstitious , than , by leaving the Church of England , communicate with all the Superstitions of Rome . Now the cunning and the malignity of A. C. lies in this : He would fain have the world think that I am so Indifferent in Religion , as that I did maintain , the Lady , being conscientiously perswaded of the Truth of the Romish Doctrine , might yet , against both her conscience , and against open and avowed profession , come to the Protestant Church .

Num. 3 Nevertheless , in hope his cunning Malice would not be discovered , against this ( his own sence , that is , and not mine ) he brings divers Reasons . As first , 't is not lawful for one affected as that Lady was ; that is , for one that is resolved of the Truth of the Romane Church , to go to the Church of England , there , and in that manner to serve and worship God ; Because ( saith A. C. ) that were to halt on both sides , to serve two Masters ; ● . C. p. ●3 . and to dissemble with God and the world . Truly , I say the same thing with him ; And that therefore neither may a Protestant , that is resolved in Conscience , that the profession of the true Faith is in the Church of England , go to the Romish Church , there , and in that manner to serve and worship God . Neither need I give other Answer , because A. C. urges this against his own fiction , not my assertion . Yet since he will so do , I shall give a particular Answer to each of them . And to this first Reason of his , I say thus , That to Believe Religion after one sort , and to practise it after another , and that in the main points of worship , the Sacrament and Invocation , is to halt on both sides , to serve two Masters , and to dissemble with God and the world . And other then this I never taught , nor ever said that which might infer the Contrary . But A. C. give me leave to tell you , your fellow Jesuite * * Quintò quaeritur ▪ A● ubi Catholici un● cum Haereticis versantur , liti●um sit Catholico adire Templa ad qu● Heretici 〈…〉 eorum interess● Conventibus , &c. Respondeo : Si r●i Naturam spectemus , non est per se malum , sed suâ natur â indifferens , &c. Et postea . Si Princeps b●res● labor●t , & ●ubeat subditos Catholicos sub p●n● Mortis , vel Con●●scationis bo●●rum frequentare Templa Haeretic●rum , quid tum faciendum P Responde● : ●●●●be●t tantum , ut omnes Mandato suo obedient , li●●tum est Catholicis facere : Qui● pr●stant solum Obedientiae officium . Sin jub●at , ut ●o Symbolo simul Religion●m H●reticam profiteantur , par●r● non debent . Qu●res it●rum , An li●tat Catholico ob●dire , ●●d● publick ●sseveret s● id ●●●●cere , sol●● ut Principi suo obediat , non ut sectam ●●●●ticam pro●●●●atur ? Respondeo : Quidam id li●●r● arbitrantur , 〈◊〉 bon● ejus public●●tur , vel Vita ●ripiatur . Quod san● pro●abiliter dici videtur . Azorius Instit. Moral . p. 1. L. 8. c. 27. p. 1299. ●●it . Paris . 1616. Azorius affirms this in express terms ; And what do you think , can he prove it ? Nay , not Azorius onely , but other Priests and Jesuites here in England , either teach some of their Proselytes , or else some of them learn it without teaching , That though they be perswaded as this Lady was , that is , though they be Romane Catholikes , yet either to gain honour , or save their purse , they may go to the Protestant Church , just as the Jesuite here says , The Lady did out of frailty and fear to offend the King . Therefore I pray A. C. if this be gross dissimulation both with God and the world , speak to your fellows to leave perswading or practising of it , and leave men in the profession of Religion to be as they seem , or to seem and appear as they are ; Let 's have no Mask worn here . A. C's second Reason why one so perswaded as that Lady was , might not go to the Protestant Church , is , Because that were outwardly to profess A. C. p. 73. a Religion in Conscience known to be false . To this I answer , first , that if this Reason be true , it concerns all men , as well as those that be perswaded as the Lady was . For no man may outwardly profess a Religion in conscience known to be false ; For with the heart man believeth to righteousness , and with the mouth he confesseth to salvation , Rom. 10. Now to his own Rom. 10. 10. salvation no man can confess a known false Religion . Secondly , if the Religion of the Protestants be in conscience a known false Religion , then the Romanists Religion is so too ; for their Religion is the same ; Nor do the Church of Rome and the Protestants set up a different Religion ( for the Christian Religion is the same to both ) but they differ in the same Religion : And the difference is in certain gross corruptions , to the very endangering of salvation , which each side says the other is guilty of . Thirdly , the Reason given is most untrue ; for it may appear by all the former Discourse to any Indifferent Reader , that Religion , as it is professed in the Church of England , is nearest of any Church now in being to the Primitive Church : And therefore not a Religion known to be false . And this I both do and can prove , were not the deafness of the Asp upon the ears of seduced Christians Psal. 58. 4. in all humane and divided parties whatsoever .

Num. 4 After these Reasons thus given by him , A. C. tells me , That I A. C. p. 73. neither do nor can prove any superstition or errour to be in the Romane * * I would A. C. would call it the Roman Perswasi●on , as some understanding Romanists do . Religion . What none at all ? Now truly I would to God from my heart this were true , and that the Church of Rome wore so happy , and the whole Catholike Church thereby blessed with Truth and Peace . For I am confident such Truth as that would soon either Command Peace , or † † For though I spare their Names , yet can I not agree in judgment with him that says in Print : God be praised for th 〈…〉 isagreement in Religion . Nor in Devotion with him that prayed in the Pulpit : That God would tear the Rent of Religion wider . But of S. Greg. N●● . opinion I am . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 &c. Non st●d●mu● paci in detrimentum vir● Doctrin● — ut facilit●●●s , & Mansuetudinis famam colligamus . — Et rursum , Pa●●m colimus legiti●● pugnantes , &c. Orat. 32. confound Peace-Breakers . But is there no Superstition in Adoration of Images ? None in Invocation of Saints ? None in Adoration of the Sacrament ? Is there no errour in breaking Christs own Institution of the Sacrament , by giving it but in one kinde ? None about Purgatory ? About Common Prayer in an unknown tongue none ? These and many more are in the Romane Religion , ( if you will needs call it so . ) And 't is no hard work to prove every of these to be Errour , or Superstition , or both . But if A. C. think so meanly of me , that though this be no hard work in it self , yet that I ( such is my weakness ) cannot prove it , I shall leave him to enjoy that opinion of me , or what ever else he shall be pleased to entertain , and am far better content with this his opinion of my weakness , than with that which follows of my pride ; for he adds , That I cannot prove any Errour or Superstition to be in A. C. p. 73. the Romane Religion , but by presuming , with intolerable pride , to make my self or some of my fellows to be Judge of Controversies ; and by taking Authority to censure all to be Superstition and Errour too , which sutes not with my fancy , although it be generally held , or practised by the Universal Church . Which ( saith he ) in S. Augustine's judgment is most insolent madness . What , not prove any Superstition , any Errour at Rome , but by Pride , and that Intolerable ? Truly I would to God A. C. saw my heart , and all the Pride that lodges therein . But wherein doth this Pride appear , that he censures me so deeply ? Why first in this , That I cannot prove any Errour or Superstition to be in the Romane Religion , unless I make my self or some of my fellows Judge of Controversies . Indeed if I took this upon me , I were guilty of great Pride . But A. C. knows well , that before in this Conference , which he undertakes to Answer , I am so far from making my self or any of my fellows Judge of Controversies , that * * § 33. §. 26. Nu. 1. & 11. I absolutely make a lawful and free General Councel Judge of Controversies , by , and according to the Scriptures . And this I learned from † † Praep●nitur Scripturae , &c. S. Aug. L. 2. de Bapt. cont. Donat. c. 3. S. Augustine , with this , That ever the Scripture is to have the prerogative above the Councel . Nay , A. C. should remember here , that ‖ ‖ §. 32. Nu. ● . A. C. p. 63. he himself taxes me for giving too much power to a General Councel , and binding men to a strict Obedience to it , even in Case of Errour . And therefore sure most innocent I am of the most intolerable pride , which he is pleased to charge upon me ; and he , of all men , most unfit to charge it . Secondly , A. C. will have my pride A. C. p. ●3 . appear in this , that I take Authority to censure all for Errour and Superstition , which sutes not with my own fancy . But how can this possible be , since I submit my judgment in all humility to the Scripture interpreted by the Primitive Church ; and upon new and necessary doubts , to the judgment of a lawful and free General Councel ? And this I do from my very heart , and do abhor , in matters of Religion , that my own , or any private mans fancy should take any place , and least of all against things generally held or practised by the Universal Church , which , to oppose in such things , is certainly ( as * * S. Aug. Ep●●● . 118. c. 5. S. Augustine calls it , Insolentissimae insaniae , an Attempt of most insolent madness . But those things which the Church of England charges upon the Roman Party to be superstitious and erroneous , are not held or practised , in , or by the Universal Church generally , either for time or place . And now I would have A. C. consider how justly all this may be turned upon himself . For he hath nothing to pretend , that there are not gross Superstitions and Errours in the Romane Perswasion , unless by intolerable pride he will make himself and his Party Judge of Controversies , ( as in effect he doth ; for he will be judged by none but the Pope , and a Councel of his ordering ) or unless he will take Authority to free from Superstition and Errour whatsoever sutes with his fancy , though it be even Superstition it self , and run cross to what hath been generally held in the Catholike Church of Christ ; Yea , though to do so , be , in S. Augustine's judgment , most insolent madness . And A. C. spake in this most properly , when he called it taking of Authority ; For the Bishop and Church of Rome have in this particular of judging Controversies , indeed taken that Authority to themselves , which neither Christ , nor his Church Catholike did ever give them . Here the Conference ended with this Conclusion .

Num. 5 And as I hope God hath given that Lady mercy : so I heartily pray that he will be pleased to give all of you a Light of his Truth , and a Love to it , that you may no longer be made Instruments of the Pope's boundless Ambition , and this most unchristian * * §. 33. Nu. 6. brain-sick device , That in all Controversies of the Faith he is Infallible , and that by way of Inspiration and Prophecy in the Conclusion which he gives . To the due Consideration of which , and God's mercy in Christ , I leave you .

Num. 6 To this Conclusion of the Conference between me and the Jesuite , A. C. says not much : But that which he doth say , is either the self same which he hath said already , or else is quite mistaken in the business . That which he hath said already , is this ; That in matters of Faith we are to submit our judgments A. C. p. 73. to such Doctors and Pastors , as by Visible Continual Succession , without change , brought the Faith down from Christ and his Apostles , to these our days , and shall so carry it to the end of the world . And that this Succession is not found in any other Church differing in Doctrine from the Romane Church . Now to this I have given a full Answer * * §. 37. N. 3. 4. already ▪ and therefore will not trouble the Reader with needless and troublesome repetition . Then he brings certain places of Scripture to prove the Pope's Infallibility . But to all these places I have likewise answered † † §. 2● . Nu. ● . before . And therefore A. C. needed not to repeat them again , as if they had been unanswerable .

Num. 7 One Place of Scripture onely A. C. had not urged before , either for proof of this Continued Visible Succession , or for the Pope's Infallibility . Nor doth A. C. distinctly set down by which A. C. p. 73. of the two he will prove it . The Place is * * Ephes 4 〈◊〉 . Ephes. 4. Christ ascending gave some to be Apostles , some Prophets , some Evangelists , some Pastors & Teachers , &c. for the edification of the Church . Now if he do mean to prove the Pope's Infallibility by this place , in his Pastoral Judgement ; Truly I do not see how this can possibly be collected thence . * * Pontificatus Summus disert● positus est ab Apostolo in illis verbis , Eph. 4. 11. & in illis clarioribus , 1 Cor. 12. 28. Ipse posuit in Ecclesia primùm Apostolos , &c. Bellar. L. 1. de Rom. Pont. c. 1. § Respondeo Pontificatum . And he gives an excellent reason for it . Siquidem Jumma potestas Ecclesiastica non solum data est Petro , sed etiam aliis Apostolis . Ibid. So belike , by this reason , the Apostle doth clearly express the Popt●●●● because all the rest of the Apostles had as much Ecclesiastio●l Powe● , as S. Peter had . But then Bellarmine would salve it up with this , That ●●●s Power is given Petro 〈◊〉 Ordinario Pastori cui succederetur , aliis verò tanquam Delegatis , quibus non succederetur . Ibid. But this si meer Begging of the Question , and will never be granted unto him . And in the mean time , we have his absolute Confession for the other , That the Supreme Ecclesiastical Power was not in S. Peter al●ae , but in all the Apostles . Christ gave some to be Apostles for the Edification of his Church : Therefore S. Peter , and all his Successors , are Infallible in their Pastoral Judgement . And if he mean to prove the Continued Visible Succession , which , he saith , is to be found in no Church but the Romane , there 's a little more shew ; but to no more purpose . A little more shew : Because it is added † † Ephes. 4. 13. Vers. 13. That the Apostles , and Prophets , &c. shall continue at their work ( and that must needs be by Succession ) till we all meet in unity and perfection of Christ . But , to no more purpose . For 't is not said that they , or their Successors should continue at this work in a personal , uninterrupted Succession in any one Particular Church , Romane , or other . Nor ever will A. C. be able to prove that such a Succession is necessary in any one particular place . And if he could , yet his own words tell us , the Personal Succession is nothing , if the Faith be not brought down without change from Christ and his A. C. p. 73. Apostles to this day , and so to the end of the world . Now here 's a piece of Cunning too , The Faith brought down unchanged . For if A. C. mean by the Faith , the Creed , and that in Letter ; 't is true , the Church of Rome hath received and brought down the Faith unchanged from Christ and his Apostles to these our days . But then 't is apparently false , That no Church differing from the Romane in Doctrine hath kept that Faith unchanged , and that by a visible and continued Succession . For the Greek Church differs from the Romane in Doctrine , and yet hath so kept that Faith unchanged . But if he mean by the Faith unchanged , and yet brought down in a continual visible Succession , not onely the Creed in Letter , but in Sense too ; And not that onely , but all the Doctrinal Points about the Faith , which have been Determined in all such Councels as the present Church of Rome allows : ( * * And so also Bellarm. Sexta nota est Conspiratio in Doctrinâ cum Ecclesiâ Antiqua . L. 4. de Noti 〈…〉 Eccles. c. 9. §. 1 as most certainly he doth so mean , and 't is the Controversie between us : ) then 't is most certain , and most apparent to any understanding man that reads Antiquity with an impartial eye , that a Visible Continual Succession of Doctors and Pastors have not brought down the Faith in this sence from Christ and his Apostles to these days of ours in the Romane Church . And that I might not be thought to say , and not to prove , I give instance . And with this , that if A. C. or any Jesuite can prove , That by a Visible Continued Succession from Christ and his Apostles to this day , either Transubstantiation in the Eucharist ; Or the Eucharist in one kinde ; Or Purgatory ; Or worship of Images ; Or the Intention of the Priest of necessity in Baptism ; Or the Power of the Pope over a General Councel ; Or his Infallibility with , or without it ; Or his Power to depose Princes ; Or the publike Prayers of the Church in an unknown tongue ; with divers other Points have been so taught , I , for my part , will give the Cause . Beside , for Succession in the general I shall say this . 'T is a great happiness where it may be had Visible and Continued , and a great Conquest over the Mutability of this present world . But I do not finde any one of the Ancient Fathers that makes Local , Personal , Visible , and Continued Succession , a Necessary Signe or Mark of the true Church in any one place . And where * * Vin. Lir. cont. Haer. c. 4. Vincentius Lirinensts calls for Antiquity , Universality , and Consent , as great Notes of Truth , he hath not one word of Succession . And for that great place in † † Hâc Ordinatione & Successione ea quae est ab Apostolis in Ecclesiá Traditio , & veritatis praeconiatio pervenit usque ad nos . Et est plenissima haec Ostensio , Unam & tandem Vivificatricem fidem esse , quae in Ecclesià ab Apostolis usque nuac fit conservata , & tradita in veritate . Iren L. 3. Advers. Haer. c. 3. Irenaeus , where that Ancient Father reckons the Succession of the Bishops of Rome to Eleutherius , ( who sate in his time ) and saith , That this is a most full and ample proof or Ostension , Vivificatricem Fidem , that the Living , and Life-giving Faith is from the Apostles to this day Conserved and delivered in Truth ; And of which place ‖ ‖ Per hanc Successionem confundi omnes Haereticos . Bellar L. ● . de Notis Eccles. c. 8. § 1. There 's no such word found in Irenaeus , as per hanc Successionem , or Hâc Successione , in the Church of Rome onely , which is Bellarmine's sence : But by Succession in general in other Churches , as well as in Rome . Bellarmine boasts so much . Most manifest it is in the very same place , that * * Testimonium his perhibent quae sunt in Asiâ Ecclesia Omnes , & qui usque adhuc Successerunt Polycarpo . Iren. L. 3. advers. Haeres . c. 3. Constat omnem Doctrinam quae cum illis Ecclesiis Apostolicis , Matricibus , Originalibus Fidei conspiret , Veritati deputandam . Tertul. de praescript . advers. Haeretic . c. 21. Ecclesia posteriores non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consangiunitate Doctrinae . Ibid. c. 32. Ecclesia non in Parietibus consistit , &c. Ecclesia autem illic erat , ubi fides vera erat . S. Hieron . in Psal. 133. Irenaeus stood as much upon the Succession of the Churches then in Asia , and of Smyrna ( though that no prime Apostolical Church ) where Polycarpus sate Bishop , as of the Succession at Rome . By which it is most manifest , that it is not Personal Succession onely , and that tyed to one Place , that the Fathers meant , but they taught , that the Faith was delivered over by Succession in some places or other still to their present time ; And so doubtless shall be , till Time be no more . I say , The Faith ; But not every Opinion , true or false , that in tract of time shall cleave to the Faith . And to the Faith it self , and all it's Fundamentals , we can shew as good , and full a Succession as you ; And we pretend no otherwise to it than you do , save that We take in the Greeks , which you do not . Only we reject your gross Superstitions , to which you can shew no Succession from the Apostles , either at Rome or else-where , much less any one uninterrupted . And therefore he might have held his peace that says , It is evident that the Roman Catholike Church only hath had a Constant and uninterrupted Succession of Pastors , and Doctors , and Tradition of Doctrine from Age to Age. For most evident it is , That the Tradition of Doctrine hath received both Addition and Alteration , since the first five hundred years in which † † Antiqua Ecclesia primis quin●●ntis A 〈…〉 vera Ecclesia suit , & proinde Apostolicam Doctrinam ●etinu●● , Ecl L. 4. de Notis Eccles. c. 9. §. 1. Bellarmine confesses , and B. Jewel maintains the Churches Doctrine was Apostolical .

Num. 8 And once more , before I leave this Point . Most evident it is , That the Succession which the Fathers meant , is not tyed to Place or Person , but 't is tyed to the Verity of Doctrine . For so * * Ad hanc formam provocabuntur ab illis Ecclesiis , quae licèt nullum e● Apostolis , vel Apostolicis Authorem suum proferant , ut multò posteriares quae denique quotidie institu●utur , t●mem in eadem side couspirantes , non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitàti Doctrinae , Tertul. de praescript . c. 32. Tertullian expresly . Beside the order of Bishops running down ( in Succession ) from the beginning , there is required Consanguinitas Doctrinae , that the Doctrine be allyed in blood to that of Christ and his Apostles . So that if the Doctrine be no kinn● to Christ , all the Succession become strangers , what nearness soever they pretend . And † † Illis Presbyteris obediendum est , qui cum Episcopatus Successione Charisma acceperu●t Veritatis , Iren. Lib. 4. cap. 〈◊〉 . Irenaeus speaks plainer than he . We are to obey those Presbyters , which together with the Succession of their Bishopricks have received Charisma Veritatis , the gift of truth . Now Stapleton being press'd hard with these two Authorities : first , ‖ ‖ Successio nec Locorum tantùm est , nec personarum , sed etiam verae & sanae Doctrinae , Stapl. Relect. Controver . 1. q. 4. A. 2. Notab. 1. Confesses expresly , That Succession , as it is a Note of the true Church , is neither a Succession in place onely , nor of Person onely , but it must be of true and sound Doctrine also . And had he stayed here , no man could have said better , But then he saw well he must quit his great Note of the Church-Succession ; That he durst not doe . Therefore he begins to cast about , how he may answer these Fathers , and yet maintain Succession . Secondly , therefore he tells us , That that which these Fathers say , do nothing weaken Succession , but that it shall still be a main Note of the true Church ? and in that sense which he would have it . And Quia Doctrina Sana est ab ipsaver● & legitimà Successione indiv●●sa , Stapl. Ibid. his Reason is . * Because sound Doctrine is indivisible from true and lawful Succession , Where you shall see this great Clerk ( for so he was ) not able to stand to himself , when he hath forsaken Truth . For 't is not long after , that he tells us , That the People are led along , and judge the Doctrine by the Pastors ; But when the Church comes to examine , she judges the Pastors by their Doctrine . And this † † Nam è Pastore ●●●pus fieri potest . Stap. ibid. Notab. 4. he says is necessary , Because a man may become of a Pastor , a Wolf . Now then let Stapleton take his choice . For either a Pastor in this Succession cannot become a Wolf , and then this Proposition's false ; Or else if he can , then sound Doctrine is not inseparable from true and Legitimate Succession : And then the former Proposition's false , as indeed it is . For that a good Pastor may become a Wolf , is no news in the Ancient Story of the Church , in which are registred the Change of many * * Vincent . Lir. ●ont . Haer. c. 23. 24. Great men into Hereticks , I spare their Names ; And since Judas chang'd from an Apostle to a Devil , S. John 6. 't is no wonder to see others change from Shepherds S. John 6. 70. into Wolves . I doubt the Church is not empty of such Changelings at this day . Yea but Stapleton will help all this . For he adds , That suppose the Pastors do forsake true Doctrine , yet Succession shall still be a true Note of the Church ; Yet not every Succession , but that which is legitimate and true . Well : And what is that ? Why , * * Legitima autem est illorum Pastorum , qui Unitatem tenent & Fidem , Stap ▪ ibid. Notab. 5. That Succession is lawful which is of those Pastors , which hold entire the Unity and the Faith . Where you may see this Sampson's hair cut off again . For at his word I 'll take him . And if that onely be a Legitimate Succession which holds the Unity and the Faith entire , then the Succession of Pastors in the Romane Church is illegitimate ; For they have had † † In their own Chronologer , Onuphrius , there are Thirty acknowledged . more Schisms among them than any other Church : Therefore they have not kept the Unity of the Church . And they have brought in gross Superstition : Therefore they have not kept the Faith entire . Now if A. C. have any minde to it , he may do well to help Stapleton out of these briars , upon which he hath torn his Credit , and I doubt his Conscience too , to uphold the Corruptions of the Sea of Rome .

Num. 9 As for that in which he is quite mistaken , it is , his Inference , which is this . That I should therefore consider carefully , Whether it be not more Christian , and less brain-sick , to think that the Pope , being S. Peter's Successour , with a General Councel should be Judge of Controversies , &c. And that the Pastoral Judgment of him should be accounted Infallible , rather than to make every man that can read the Scripture , Interpreter of Scripture , Decider of Controversies , Controller of General Counsels , and Judge of his Judges : Or to have no Judge at all of Controversies of Faith , but permit every man to believe as he list . As if there were no Infallible certainty of Faith to be expected on earth ; which were , instead of one saving Faith , to induce a Babylonical Confusion of so many faiths , as fancies ; Or no true Christian Faith at all . From which Evils , Sweet Jesus deliver us ! I have considered of this very carefully ; But this Inference supposes that which I never granted , nor any Protestant that I yet know ; Namely , That if I deny the Pope to be Judge of Controversies , I must by and by either leave this supream Judicature in the hands and power of every private man that can but read the Scripture ; or else allow no Judge at all , and so let in all manner of Confusion . No , God forbid that I should grant either : For I have expresly * * §. 26. Nu. 1. declared , That the Scripture interpreted by the Primitive Church , and a lawful and free General Councel determining according to these , is Judge of Controversies : And that no private man whatsoever , is , or can be Judge of these . Therefore A. C. is quite mistaken ( and I pray God it be not wilfully , to beguile poor Ladies , and other their weak adherents , with seeming to say somewhat ) I say , quite mistaken , to infer , that I am either for a private Judge , or for no Judge ; for I utterly disclaim both ▪ and that as much , if not more than he , or any Romanist , whoever he be . But these things in this passage I cannot swallow . First , That the Pope with a General Councel should be Judge ; for the Pope in Ancient Councels never had more power than any the other Pat●●●r●hs : Precedency , perhaps for Orders sake , and other respects , he had . Nor had the Pope any Negative voice against the rest in point of difference . * * Patrum & Avorum nostrorum tempore , p 〈…〉 , Papam esse supra 〈◊〉 . 〈…〉 , 〈…〉 notum , quia Roma 〈…〉 . rerum ▪ Ex●●●●●d . f●● . 5. Nunc autem , Papam esse non 〈◊〉 supra Concilium Generale , sed & 〈◊〉 Ecclesiam , est propositio ●ere de Fide . Bellar. 1. 2. ●● Concil. c. 1● . §. ● . No nor was he held superiour to the Councel . Therefore the ancient Church never accounted or admitted him a Judge ; no , not with a Councel , much less without it . Secondly , it will not down with me , that his Pastoral Judgement should be Infallible ; especially since some of them have been as † † 〈◊〉 hoc tempore 〈…〉 Romae ( ut fa●● est ) qui ●acr as 〈◊〉 as didic●rit , ●u● front● 〈◊〉 eorum docert audebit , quod nos di●●cerit ? A●●i●ph . 〈◊〉 Concil. 〈◊〉 . Nam 〈…〉 et 〈…〉 adeo illiteratos esse ut Grammaticam penitus ignorarent , qui 〈◊〉 u● sacr●s Lit●ras interpretari possint ? Alphons . à Castro , L. 1. advers. Haeres . c. 4. versùs medium . Edit. Pa●●s . 1534. ( For both that at Antwer● , An. 1556. and that at Paris , An. 1571. have been in Purgatory . ) And such an Ignorant as these was Pope John the four and twentieth , Platino in Vita ejus . E. §. 33. N 6 Ignorant , as many that can but read the Scripture . Thirdly , I cannot admit this ●e●ther ( though he do most cunningly thereby abuse his Readers : ) That any thing hath been said by me , out of which it can justly be inferred , That there 's no Infallible certainty of Faith to be expected on earth . For there is most Infallible certainty of it , that is , of the Foundations of it in Scripture and the Creeds . And 't is so clearly delivered there , as that it needs no Judge at all to sit upon it , for the Articles themselves . And so entire a Body is this one Faith in it self , as that the ‖ ‖ Resolutio Occham est , Quòd nec tota Ecclesia , nec Concilium Generale , n●c Summus Pontifex potest facere Articulum , quod non fuit Articulus . Sed Ecclesia bene ●●terminat de Propos●tionibus Catholic● , de quibus erat dubium , &c. Ja. Almain . in 3. Sent. D. 25. q. unic● . Dub. 3. Sicut ad ea quae spectant ad . Fidem nostram , & nequaquam ex voluntate humana dependent , non potest Summus Pontifex , nec Ecclesia de 〈◊〉 non ve●● , veram : nec de non fal●● falsam facere , ità non potest de non Catholic● Catholicam facere , nec de non 〈◊〉 Haerititam . Et ideo non potest ●●●●m Articulum facere , nec Articulum Fidei tollere . Quo●iam sicut Veritates Catholicae absque omni approbatio●● Ecclesia e● naturâ rei sunt immutabiles , & immutabilitèr vera , ità sunt immatabiliter Catholicae reputandae . 〈…〉 H●reses absque omni reprobatione , & damnatione sunt falsae , ità absque omni reprobatione sunt Haereses r●putanda , &c. Ex posteà . Patet ergo quòd nulla Veritas est Catholica ex approbatione Ecclesiae vel Papae . Gab. 〈◊〉 3. S●●t . Dist. 〈◊〉 . q. unica . Art. 3. 〈◊〉 , 3. versùs 〈◊〉 . Whole Church ( much less the Pope ) hath not power to add one Article to it , nor leave to detract any one the least from it . But when Controversies arise about the meaning of the Articles , or Superstructures upon them , which are Doctrines about the Faith , not the Faith it self ( unless where they be immediate Consequences ) then both in and of these a * * §. 26. Num. 1. Lawful and free General Councel , determining according to Scripture , is the best Judge on earth . But then suppose uncertainty in some of these superstructures , it can never be thence concluded , That there is no Infallible certainty of the Faith it self . But 't is time to end , especially for me , that have so Many Things of Weight lying upon me , and disabling me from these Polemick Discourses , beside the Burden of sixty five years compleat , which draws on apace to the period set by the Prophet David , Psal. 90. Psal. 90. 10. and to the Time , that I must go , and give God , and Christ an Account of the Talent committed to my Charge ; In which God , for Christ Jesus sake , be merciful to me , who knows , that however in many Weaknesses , yet I have with a faithful and single heart ( bound to his free Grace for it ) laboured the Meeting , the Blessed Meeting of Truth and Peace in his Psal. 85. 10. Church , and which God , in his own good time , will ( I hope ) effect . To Him be all Honour , and Praise for ever . AMEN .

FINIS .