Some drops of the viall, powred out in a season when it is neither night nor day, or, Some discoveries of Iesus Christ His glory in severall books ... : all which books are here reprinted in one booke entirely after the severall impressions of them and presented to the reader / by John Saltmarsh ...

Some Drops of the Viall , powred OUT IN A SEASON , WHEN IT IS Neither Night nor Day : OR , Some Discoveries of Iesus Christ His Glory in severall BOOKS ; viz.

1. The New Quaere .

2. The Opening of the Vindication .

3. The Smoake in the Temple .

4. The Groanes for liberty .

5. The Divine Right of Presbytery discussed .

6. An End of One Controversie .

7. Reasons for Vnity , Peace , and Love : And , Shadowes flying away .

All which Books are here reprinted in one Booke entirely , after the severall Impressions of them , and presented to the Reader .

1 King . 19. 11 , 12. But the Lord was not in the Winde , and after the Winde an Earthquake , but the Lord was not in the Earthquake , and after the Earthquake a fire , but the Lord was not in the fire , and after the fire , a still small voice , ( and the Lord was in that . )

By John Saltmarsh , Preacher of the Gospell .

LONDON , Printed for Giles Calvert , at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS , 1646.

TO HIS EXCELLENCY , Sir THOMAS FAIRFAX , Generall of all the Forccs raised for the PARLIAMENT . Right Honourable ,

THe severall pieces thus rallied , were never writ in my own power , or appointment , but I had commonly some juncture of Providence , and something of a Spirit not my own upon me ; for I observed I could not write when I would , my Springes , were not in me , nor could I end when I would , till I had finished this Testimony , and for something of God here , I am sure , there is enough of man , of my selfe ; Thus is Gods appearing while we are in the Body , he was in Christs which had no sin , but he is not so in ours which are full of sin .

I have some few things to say , and they ars things of duty from me , and of truth to you ; that God hath filled the story of your life with himselfe , with his Power , Wisdome , and Love , and all that he may be your fulnesse , and that you would glory in the Lord : Let me remind you how you have seen him from Leedes to Bradfoorth , to Wetherby , to York , to Hull , even from Yorkeshire to Lincolneshire , from thence to Naseby , and so through the Conquest of Cities , Towns , Castles , through so much almost as a Kingdom comes to . And now after all this enter into your rest , even the love of God , the Son of God , and there refresh your selfe in his light , in his glory , in the bosome of his love , there are pleasures for evermore ; this is a piece of your coursest worke , to beare the Sword for him who is the Power of God upon Earth , for the punishment of evill doers in the world , the more glorious worke is your Spirituall , where Principalities and Rulers , and Spirituall wickednesse in high places , flesh and bloud are all against you , and yet you above them all , in him , through whom you are more than Conquerour , even him that loved you .

Sir , Let it be not your busines only to Conquer as a man , but as a Saint , not as a Souldier , but as a Christian , not in the spirit of man but of God . Let not a sin , a lust , a temptation stand more before you in the body , then an enemy in the field : gird on your spirituall Armour , your Shield of faith , your brestplate of righteousnesse , your Sword of the Spirit , your Helmet of Salvation , and put on your white lining , which is the righteousnesse of the Saints , and follow him who rides on the white Horse , in a vesture dipt in the bloud of his sufferings , whose name is the Word of God , and tell me if ever there was Glory like unto this Glory .

I cannot reckon the mighty men of valour in the world , any thing but a worldly glory , which if it dyed not with them , or some ages after them , yet can live no longer than the life of the world , all these things are perishing ; but to be a man of the holy Spirit , a man borne of God , a man that wars not after the flesh , a man of the Kingdom of God , as well as of England : Thus you shall live beyond time , and age , and men , and the world ; gathered up into the life which is Eternall , and was with the Father .

Sir , Your dwelling now is much in the shadow of death , and amongst the Graves , and therefore so live in Christ your life , that you may have one life more then men can kill ; men can only kill the man , not the Christian.

Sir , I will not praise you , but blesse God for you , and his Image in you , this will make great men love God , and not themselves ; to speake of them as his , not as their own .

Now Sir , so warre , that you may be still a man of peace in the midst of battell , and of compassions in the midst of sufferings , never wearing your Laurell without some Olive , that all may know when you act as a Magistrate , and as your selfe , when you act from power , or when from love , from Justice , or when from mercy .

So love , as you may love God and Christ in men , more then men , and the Spirit in any more then the Forme either of Presbytery or Independency .

Thus Brethren who can now scarcely love one another because of that , shall love you , and shall learne to love one another from you ,

Noble Sir , Your humble servant , IOHN SALTMARSH .

A New Quaere , At this time seasonably to be considered , as we tender the advancement of TRVTH & PEACE ; Viz.

Whether it be fit , according to the Principles of true Religion , and State , to settle any Church-Government over the Kingdome hastily , or not ; and with the Power commonly desired , in the hands of the Ministers .

By IOHN SALTMARSH , Preacher of the Word at Brasteed in Kent .

2 Cor. 10. 8. Our authority ( which the Lord hath given for Instruction , and not for destruction . )

LONDON , Printed for Giles Calvert , at the Signe of the Black Spread-Eagle , at the West-End of S. PAULS . 1646.

A Quaere :

Whether it be ●it , according to the Principles of true Religion , and State , to settle any Church-Government over the Kingdom hastily , or not ; and with the Power commonly desired , in the hands of the Ministers ,

_1 . THe Rules laid down in the Word for practicall Obedience , are these in part ; Let every one be fully perswaded in his own mind , Rom. 14. 5. ver. 23. and whatsoever is not of faith , is sin . Now the setling of any Government upon a people who are yet generally untaught in the nature and grounds of it , is to put upon the people the practice of that wherein it is impossible they can be fully perswaded in their minds , and so either on a necessity of sin or misery .

2 ▪ There is great danger of bringing people under a Popish implicite Obedience , by forcing on a practice of that which they scarce know , or know but in part : And this is against the Nationall Covenant , to side with any Principles of Popery : And we know it by experience , that the people have been ever devoted to any thing the State sets up ; all the disputes or conscience of the common people usually ending in this , Whether it be established by Law or no ; and going usually no higher nor further then a Statute or Act of State for their Religion .

3. Christ Iesus himselfe could as easily have setled his Gospell-Government by miracle , as any can now by a Civill power , if there had been such a primary or moral necessity of establishing it so soon upon a people scarce enlightned for any part of it : But we see the contrary , first in himselfe , he taught long , and Iohn before him , and so the Disciples ; and the g●●●s for Government were not given till he ascended , and the Modell for Government not brought forth but by degrees , and as people fell in and were capable of the Yoake , and would ●ould more easily to the Commandements of Christs ; and whether then or no , is yet a Question which some who have sit out the debates too , though not with me , who am fully assured of a power See in M. Colemans Sermon . of order which the Apostle rejoyced to behold ; though a power with as little dominion in Government as tradition in Worship .

4. We never read in the new Testament of a Gospell-government setled upon any that were not brought first under Gospell-obedience by the power of the Word and Spirit , which thousands of Congregations in this Kingdom are not ▪ For as in materiall Buildings Stone and Timber are not to be cl●pt together without howing and squaring , so nor in the spirituall : And whereas in the Temple there should neither be Axe nor Hammer heard , because things were fitted before hand , and so laid together : I question how this could be in our Congregations now : I beleeve there would be now more of the Axe and the Hammer heard , then of the building seen .

5. We have found by experience , that the speedy setling of Government upon the Nation , hath made Reformation take little root , save in the outward man , or formall Obedience ; and the reason was , Because they received not Reformation first in the power of the Word , but of the State , which went not so deep into their Consciences , but they could part with it at any time upon a Law : Oh then , Why do not daies speake , and multitude of yeares teach knowledge ?

6. It is against the nature of Christs description of himselfe , and against that sutablenesse which he presses for , amongst all such as should submit to his Commandements ; He shall not strive , nor cry , neither shall any man heare his voyce in the streets , Matth. 11. 19. My yoke is easie , and my burden light , Matth. 11. 29. His Commandements are not grievous , 1 Joh. 5. 3. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles . All which cannot be fulfilled in the Parochiall Congregations .

7. The more time for trying the spirits , and proving all things , there is lesse danger to that State of errings in things received and authorized , and of involving it selfe into the designes of Ecclesiasticall power , then which nothing hath sooner broken the Civill power , as may be seen in Popish Kingdoms , and our late Prelaticall . There can be no great danger in the not sudden incorporating the two powers : Since Moses is not alive to bring down the just Paterne of the Tabernacle , there may a new Star arise , which was not seen at first ; which , if we shut up our selves too soone while the smoake is in the Temple , cannot appeare .

8. We have not yet any experiment of our new Clergie , who are many of them branches of the old stock , and so may weild the Government too much of the Episcopall Faction , as the Samaritans did with the Iewish Government , because they were not naturall Iews . It is not safe trusting a power too far into those hands . Our Brethren of Scotland have been more used to the way of Presbytery , and may better trust one another upon mutuall experience , then we can yet .

9. We experience in part some remainders of Prelacy working in many , which shewes a constitution not so cleare nor pure as the Disciples of Christ should have ; then whether it be safe committing the power too suddenly : For though I question not but some may be like the ten , yet there are others like the two Brethren who strove which should be greatest , till the Lord ended the difference , It shall not be so amongst you . We find the hottest Controversie is now moved about Church-government ; and there hath been most written and spoken this way , and in most violence : Now when the contention for power is so much , and the Controversie streames most in Government , we may soon discerne dispositions . Well , is it good parting with the stakes yet while there is such quarrelling for them , & when one party cannot but take it for an injury , if wholly given to the other ? It is to be feared , there is too much of man , because the bias runs most in these times towards this one truth of government , & many other are wholly set by , which might well be lookt upon with it ; which if there were not a Principle in man more fitted for a truth of this kind then any other , would not be : But every truth hath its age and season . This only for caution .

10. There is no Religion established by State , but there is some proportion in the two Powers , and some compliancy betwixt the Civill and Ecclesiasticall ; so as the establishing the one , will draw with it some motions in the other : And we all see how hazardous it is to disinteresse any in the Civill part , even in Kingdomes that are more firme , as France , where the Protestants are partly allowed their Religion in pay for their Civill engagements ; and so in other States . And sure I am , that State is most free , where the conscience is least straitned , where the Tares and the Wheat grow together till the harvest .

11. Our parties or dissenting Brethren being now together , and clasped by interest against the common enemy , this foundation of common unity is such as may draw in both affections and judgements , if not too suddenly determined into Hereticks and Schismaticks : It is possible , while a Controversie is long suspended , and time given for conclusion of things , Opinions may be sooner at peace : A fire let alone , may dye out under that wood which stirred in would kindle it . The Contentions of Brethren are like the strong bars of a Castle ; and a Brother that is offended is harder to be won then a strong City , Prov. 18. 19.

OBIECTIONS .

BUt the Temple was builded with all speed in Nehemiahs time ; and therefore , &c. And Haggai cals to the building , Is it time ? Hag. 1. 4.

Answ.

Yea , but the matteriall Patterne was more clearly left and known then the Gospell-patternes : The other were more in the letter , and these more in the Spirit . Now there must be a proving all things , else there may be more hast then good speed ; and the Temple may be built by a false Paterne as well as a true , and then better no Building , then no right Cedar to build with . And there were Prophets then , who knew the periods of times , and could Prophesie , as Haggai and Zechariah ; but none so exactly now ; and these knew both the fashion and the time for Building . Yet who ought not to hasten the Temple , if the Timber be ready , and if the Apostles and Prophets be there for a foundation , and Iesus Christ for chiefe Corner-ston ? Ephes. 2.

Object . II.

But Vice , Heresies and Schisms will grow too fast .

Answ.

So they might have done from Iohns first Sermon to Pauls Epistles , and the sending of the Spirit ; but yet you see there was no Government , till after , setled upon the people of God . And if Heresies stir up their Patrons against the State , the Magistrate beares not the Sword in vaine ? And if morall transgressions , let the Magistrate be set on in every place to quicken the Statutes ; and Preachers every where sent forth to publish the Gospell . And what if the Prince of Persia withstand for a while ? Truth is otherwise armed from heaven : Though Satan be in the wisdernesse with Corist , yet Christ shall conquer . It is the Papists and the Prelates Jealousies , to keep up their supposed truths , by suspecting every thing that appeares for an enemy . The Gospell dares walk abroad with boldnesse and simplicity , when Traditions of men , like melancholy people , feare every thing they meet will kill them : For the Angell that comes down from heaven hath great power , and the earth is lightned with his glory , Rev 18. 1.

FINIS .

THE OPENING OF MASTER PRYNNES NEW BOOK ; CALLED , A Vindication : OR , Light breaking out from a Cloud of Differences , or late Controversies .

Wherein , Are Inferences upon the Vindication , and Antiquaeres to the Quaeres ; and by that , the way a little cleared to a further Discovery of Truth in a Church-Order , by a Conference or Discourse .

By JOHN SALTMARSH , Preacher at Brasteed in Kent .

Published according to Order .

LONDON , Printed for Giles Calvert , at the Sgne of the Black Spread-Eagle , at the West-End of S. PAULS . 1645.

To the Honourable Philip Skippon , Major Generall of the Army , raised for the King and Parliament , under the Command of Sir Thomas Fairfax Generall . NOBLE SIR ,

SVpposing you may take the Book called the Vindication by Master Prynne into your hand , I desire that this Discourse may be in your other hand , as occasion serves . If the Lord hath revealed any thing in this Discourse , to enlighten the darknesse of this present Controversie , it is onely from him who is the Father of Lights , who carries on his to a more excellent way , till we may with open face , behold the Glory of Jesus Christ , and be changed from glory to glory .

Sir , The thing I only contend for , is , that which the Gospel and Spirit cals for ; Whatsoever things are pure , whatsoever things are honest , whatsoever things are of good report .

Sir , The ingagement of private respects which are upon me towards you ; and being likewise a partaker of some labours of yours in the Lord , which are abroad , as that of Promises , &c. The best treasure we have in this life , hath drawne this from me .

The Lord who hath wounded you , binde you up , and lead you on to the glorious Truths ; for , if I mistake not , our Controversie is but this in these times ; some would walke more close with Christ , some can be content like Peter to walke at more distance , and follow him afar off , and to stand warming themselves with the multitude in the Common-Hall : And let the Word judge betwixt us , which is of best report .

Sir , Yours in the things of Iesus Christ , John Saltmarsh .

But I have many Reasons I shall now acquaint you with , if you will have but patience , and not upon a Notion or Name of Heresie and Schism shut up your Windows , as against a new light , Meteor , or some Blazing-Star , as too many do : we are bidden try the spirits , and prove all things . ( Friend ) be not so discourteous to any Notion that is a stranger , it is besides the Aposties rule ▪ be not , saies he , forgetfull to entertaine strangers , for some have entertained Angels unawares .

And this is one Reason further , till more come ; we are but comming out of Babylon , you , and we were but the other day with the vaile of Prelacy upon our hearts , and we are but in healing , like the blind man ; and because yet we see men like Trees , shall we therefore judge them to be so , and not stay till our eyes be opened , that we see better ?

Have you no better reasons to convince me ? These I confesse are something , and I will think on them .

Yea , look with a single eye upon their principles , and take them in their own single Positions , not as the world Prints them , or reports them , this is much a wanting in these times ; you know what was said of the Christians to Paul , As for this sect , every where it is spoken against ; And I see no reason , why other opinions which have been held by some Author of one opinion , should be all charged upon that one for his sake , which neither in it selfe , nor any just consequence from it , can be proved of any right to belong unto it : And if there be any Tares with the wheat , they are of the enemies sowing , as Christ said , to make us go by , and not reap there where the Wheat is so scant , and the Tares so many .

But , O methinks , if things were setled about the Church once !

Yea , but how will you settle ?

How ? As it is agreed on .

Agreed on ? What , have you not heard of the new Book of the Vindication of the foure Questions ?

What of that ?

Some of the learned , for the Presbiteriall way , are divided about setling , and know not how to settle the great Ordinance of the Lords Supper upon the Kingdom or Nation .

How ? Any of our judgement divided ? I will not beleeve that : Surely , they are not like your Independent Brethrer , to crumble into divisions , and severall opinions .

Look you now , how you are mistaken ! I tell you again , The Vindication-Book , whose Author is as famous and able , as your way affords , hath writ a large Tractate for mixt Communions or Sacraments , against some of that way that are against them .

Beleeve me , if it be so , I shall be at a stand ; I thought all of our side that had been for Presbytery , had been all of a mind , and none had broken out into Factions , but they of the other side .

I love not this word Faction on any side yet , till we see more ; I would not misinterpret any willingly : You shall heare the reasons on both sides gathered up very narrowly without the passion ; for I would neither have passion to object nor to confute any thing , but meerly Scripture and Reason .

I pray you , what are the differences ?

A reverend Brother of the Presbyteriall way , answers certain Questions of anothers of that way , which he it seemes had propounded to the State , to be considered on in the setling of things over the Kingdom : and some others too , in certain Printed Treatises , have gone about to confute them ; so as his Questions , which as he professes openly , were written only for the advancement of Reformation , were interpreted by those of the same way with him , as an enemy of Reformation , as an adversary , and an obstruction Vindication , Fol. 1. to the worke of Reformation , and settlement of Church-Discipline , as he saith .

O strange ! one of them thus censured by their own , and by those , whose advancement he hath sought so much in opposing himselfe against the new waies of Independency and Separation , as he cals them : But well , how differ they ?

He holds in his Book of Vindication divers particulars concerning Church-Discipline , and censures , and the Administration of the Lords Supper , wherein the other Brethren of the Presbyteriall-way differ from him :

As first , He holds there is no precept nor president in Scripture , for the Fol. 3. suspending of any Member of a Congregation from the Lords Supper , who is not at the same time excommunicated from the Church , and all other Ordinances as well : some of the other hold the contrary , or mistake , as he saith .

2. That Matth. 18. 16 , 17. If thy Brother trespasse , &c. is not meant Fol. 3. of the Church , nor of excommunication , nor suspension from the Sacrament ; which the other hold .

3. That 1 Cor. 5. 5. to deliver such a one to Satan , is not meant of suspension Fol. 6. or excommunication from the Sacrament ; which the other hold .

4. That 1 Cor. 5. 11. with such a one , no , not to eat , is not meant of Fol 9. Spirituall eating ; which the other hold .

5. That Numb . 9. 1 , 10 , 11. is not meant of excluding any by way Fol. 14. of Type from the Sacrament in acts of suspension , but of totall putting out from all Ordinances , for legall uncleannesles , not Spiritual .

6. That Judas received the Supper , or Sacrament , as well as the other Fol. 17. Apostles , and that the Sop that was given him before he went out , was after the Bread was distributed ; which some of the other deny .

7. That the Minister hath fully discharged himselfe , if he give warning Fol. 28. to unworthy Communicants of the danger , and then give it ; which the other hold not .

8. That Ministers may as well refuse to Preach the Word to such unexcommunicated Fol. 35. grosse impenitents , for feare of partaking in their sin , as to administer the Sacrament to them ; and they heare damnation in the one , as well as eat damnation in the other .

That the Sacrament of the Lords Supper , is as well a converting Ordinance , Fol 40 , 41 , &c. as any other , being reckoned amongst the Meanes of Grace , and so to be administred to any unexcommunicated Member of a Congregation ; which some of the other deny .

That they put groundlesse differences betwixt Preaching of the Word , and Administration of the Sacraments .

9. That the putting out of the Synagogue in John 9. 21 , 34 , 35. is no Fol. 48. good proofe of excommunication or suspension from the Sacrament .

10. That the Authors Scriptures quoted in his fourth Question , are not Fol. 49. rightly applyed , as his opposites say .

And are these the differences fully ?

Yea , excepting the Proofes on both sides , for which , I refer you to the Books themselves , which all together , are large .

But how conclude they ?

The Author of the Vindication doth fairly shew them , that they Fol. 50. contend for what he doth grant them , with advantage ; and yet they quarel with him for denying it , as he saith .

Methinks these are strange mistakes one of another , and amongst these of our Preshyterial side too .

And he hopes the Parliament will consider , and take care , that the Fol. 57. Ministers , like the Bishops formerly , may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing .

But how will some of our Ministers take this ?

I know not that ; but I like well in this ; but he goes upon one ground more then all the rest .

What is that ?

That the very ground , upon which divers of the more modera●e and tender in the Presbyteriall way , go , is the ground of all the growing , and spreading of Schism and Separation , Anabaptism , and other Errours tending to them , which yet they beleeve , they so much preach against ▪ Fol. 58. a strange mistake with them , as he observes .

If it be so , how pittifully are those Ministers mistaken in their own grounds ? and the best of them too , to be so mistaken , is the more to be wondered : for I count the tenderest of them the best ; but this is yet a secret to me .

Yea , and to them it may seem so too ; but I shall unfold the mystery of this Vindication-Book , if I mistake not the suspending scandalous persons from the Lords Supper , and some other thoughts of pertaking in their sins , is it seems deemed by this Book Some principles or positions of Separation , which if fomented , as the Author insinuates , may in time Fol. 59. subvert the other principles of Presbytery , as indeed they may , being something inconsistent , and of a better and more spirituall nature ; and I am of his opinion , for I would have all of a colour and constitution , All light , or all darkenesse ; and beleeve it , your principles of a purer way , will not long incorporate with any other ; the Ark and Dagon will not stand together , and the way to overthrow the inventions of men , is by taking in some principles of the Truth into traditions ; what hath made the Popish Hierarchy go down ? Not its own principles of Idolatry , Will-worship , and Tyranny : But when there were some takings in of Reformation-principles , as when they would go from Popery to Prelacy , Popery fell much in the power of it ; and so when from Prelacy they went off to Presbytery , Prelacy fell , and so on : If you make any remove from the common principles of this Presbytery , into any of the way or parts of the Separation , your Presbytery will down too , because it takes in some purer principles then , as we may gather from the Vindication Booke , it will well beare .

But if these be then the common Principles of this Presbyteriall way , as he would have it to communicate in Ordinances thus mixedly , and to suspect no uncleannesse in any spirituall Communion from persons so communicating , though of never so unreformed a life , excepting onely some pretended form all flashy apparences of Faith and Repentance put on and off by the Communicants , as occasion serves ; I shall have I thinke no such good thoughts as I had of that way .

But the grounds are yet further laid downe in the Book , that unmixt Vind. l. Fol. 59. Communions , and suspending from the Sacrament , are grounds of Schism ; and that the teaching of these formerly , through ignorance or incogitancy , are now to be taught , and written , and preached against .

I perceive then in a word , That the maine thing the Vindication-Book drives at , is , to place Presbytery upon such a mixed uniformity in the partaking of Ordinances , that there should be no act of suspension or separation practised in their Church , lest the ground of separation get in ; and they that make conscience to separate or suspend in some particulars ▪ it implies , they may go on to a further separation , till upon more degrees of purity in communicating , they go off from all kinde of mixt communicatings , in the constituting , as well Churches , as Ordinances and Administrations , and so at length become , either Congregationall , or of the other way .

But many of us tooke such of the Presbyteriall way , as writ and taught , for a pure Reformation in partaking of Ordinances , for the better , according to their light : And it seems they are but novices , as we may gather from the Vindication-Book , and are ignorant of his Presbyteriall secret , or mystery of uniformity , and unmixt communicating , according to the grounds there .

Well , I am yet of the purer side , I like not this mystery , if the way to keep out Schism be of such a kinde , as drawes with it an unavoidable necessity of partaking with all sorts of sinners , except onely for some present affected passions of Faith and Repentance , and a Toleration of all sorts of that kinde , except by excommunication , where in some places whole Parishes , and almost in all Parishes many must stand , either excommunicated by the Classis , or Presbytery , or Reformed , which is impossible , or as frequent partakers of Ordinances , spirituall fellowship , as the best , and purest , which is intolerable .

Indeed , I am glad you come off so well already . I will not meddle with the present state of some of these first particulars in difference I named to you , but leave them to the Authors ; but come to some of the more questionable .

For that Controversie betwixt the Brethren , which is , Whether Judas Fol. 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28. received or not ? I know there are divers Leaves of Paper writ upon it in the Vindication , and many learned men are quoted , and Scriptures brought in on both sides , and harmoniously compared ; but since the Lord left it so disputable , as some imagine , we must not do in such doubtfull sayings , as those Disciples did , who because Christ said of John , If I will that he tarry till I come , what is that to thee ? and it was reported amongst the Disciples , that that Disciple should not die , though Christ said not he should not dye : but onely , what if I will that he tarry . So if the Lord hath not clearly said , that Judas was there , why goeth it so amongst the Disciples , as if he were there without all contradiction ? but if he were , and Christ gave it to Judas , as for my part , I make it not any such ground , though he and all others do , because it will not be clear then , that he gave it to Judas as a wicked man , or a formall Disciple ; for I know Christ administred then as an outward Dispenser to the Church , or chiefe pastour , and in his Body unglorifyed , whereby he kept close to the analogy of visible Administration of Ordinances , and in President and Precept , for the future to his Churches for all ages ; and so all their puzling may be at an end .

I will now acquaint you further with some Arguments or Inferences from the Vindication , which I have to strengthen you .

Vindication , Fol. 36.

THat no Minister , not knowing the present change or inclination of the heart of any , or whether God by this very duty , may not really convert him , ought to administer the Sacrament .

Inference .

Whence we may infer , That all sorts of sinners , never so prophane and abominable yet upon any present , affected , counterfeited , formall pretence of Faith and Repentance , ought to partake in all things of the most spirituall nature and fellowship ; and withall , of the most spirituall and sincere profession , contrary to these Scriptures , 1 Pet. 2. 9. 2 Cor. 6. 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18. Isai . 52. 11. Gal. 5. 9.

Vindication , Fol. 37.

The Brethrens Reason , That in the Sacrament , there is a neerer application of the Word , and Promises in particular , of the right and interest in them , more then in the Word preached , which the Vindication saith , is just like the late Archbishop of Cante●buries Doctrine for bowing at the Altar , as Gods great place of presence .

Inference .

Whence we may infer , that the Vindication doth very uncharitably compare Doctrines and Principles , viz. his Brethrens with those of Prelacy , and his Brethren with the grossest of Prelates ; and their Principles , of spirituall Administration , and Communion with those of a most Idolatrous , and externall nature , which is contrary to these Scriptures , Iames 4. 12. Matth. 7. 1 , 3 , &c. 1 Pet. 3. 8.

Vindication , Fol. 37.

That the Minister administring the Sacrament to any known impenitent sinners , yet under the Notion of penitent and repenting sinners , for that time discharges himselfe .

Inference .

Whence we may infer , That a Minister ought to comply with the Hypocrisies , pretences , co●plianc●s , formes , of any notorious , scandalous , or impenitent sinner at that time , only in the aparition or resemblance of a Saint and a Woolf in Sheeps clothing , contrary to these Scriptures , 1 Tim. 5. 21 , 22. Math. 15. 26. 2 Tim. 3. 5. 1 Thes. 5. 22. 1 Cor. 6. 16.

Vindication , Fol. 37 , 38.

That the words of Institution in the Sacrament , The Body of Christ which was broken , and the Bloud of Christ shed for you , is not of any Divine Institution , but humane only , though , warrantably practised .

Inference .

Whence we may infer , That he , in affirming the Institution to be only humane , and yet warrantable , is not only an impeaching of their worship of God in the highest and most spirituall Admirations of Will-worship , and humane invention , and want of conformity to the Rule or Word ; but even a flat contradiction in a Scripture sense , because he addes , Yet warrantably practised ; as if an unlawfull way of worship , as all will-worship is , might be lawfully practised ; which is contrary to these Scriptures , Matth. 15. 3 , 9. Isai . 29. 13 , 14. Gal. 3. 15. Iohn 10. 4 , 5. Matth. 6. 44. Tit. 1. 14. Rev. 14 9 , 10.

Vindication , Fol. 38.

That the Sacrament of the Lords Supper belongs of right to all visible knowing Members of the visible Church , as well as the Sacrament of Baptisme .

Inference .

Whence we may infer , That in this his equalizing all Ordinances under this Notion of knowing Members , that either children are not capable of Baptisme , because not knowing Members , and upon this ground of his wrongfully Baptized ; or if right Members , yet deprived of the other Sacrament of the Supper , to which , as visible Members , they have right , as well as to the other , there being no distinction of knowing and unknowing Members in this sense ; or else , that they may partake in that Ordinance of Baptisme , and be signed or sealed , and yet no right Members of a visible Church .

Vindication , Fol. 38.

That that of not casting Pearles before Swine in Matth. 7. 6 , 10 , 14. is expresly determined in 2 Pet. 2 , 1 , 2 , 21 , 22. and Heb. 10. 28 , 29. to open Apostates , not to scandalous sinners , who duly repaire to publish Ordinances , and externally professe Reformation and Repentance ; and to apply this Text to these , is a meer perverting of it .

Inference .

Whence we may infer ▪ That this cuts off the Brethren of the more purely-Presbyteriall way fully from all their foundation-Texts of any more spirituall distribution of Holy Ordinances , or any dictinction in the distribution , which they have so long breathed after , and rejoyced in the expectation of ; and their condition upon these Principles are no better now in their so much desired-for-Reformation , then it was under the Prelates and Common-Prayer-Book , which holds the doore more close against sinners , then the Vindication or they ought to do , upon these his principles .

And secondly , The full and finall determining a Scripture of this kind , or any other , to one particular sense , is not agreeable to that Spirit of Wisdom , and of God , which is an infinitely abounding Spirit ; and like the Sun , is full of beames and continuall springings of light ; nor do the Interpretations of the Word , appeare all at once : the same Scripture which many ages ago gave out one beame of light , gave more in the ages after , and more now , as the eyes of our understanding are enlightned ; so as Scriptures are not to be bounded in our sense , nor the elevations of spirit , taken by the short rule of our spirits ; which is contrary to these Scriptures , 2 Pet. 1. 20 , 21. 2. Cor. 5. 16. Phil. 3. 12 , 13 , 15 , 16. Ephes. 3. 18 , 19. 1 Cor. 2. 14 , 15.

Vindication , Fol. 41.

If the Sacrament be only a setling or confirming Ordinance of true Grace , when and where it is already begun , then it were altogether impertinent , and ineffectuall unto civill carnall Christians ; therefore doubtlesse it is , and was intended by Christ for a converting Ordinance to all such as those .

Inference .

Whence we may infer , That the Sacrament being a converting Ordinance , may be given to all unregenerate persons , in or out of the Church ; for if it be a converting Ordinance , the consequence lies cleare , that no sinners , of any sort , kind , quality , condition , in or out of the Church , ought to be denied it ; nay , to have it administred , as well without the Word , as with it , it being of equall power with the Word for converting , as the Vindication faith ; and that who holds otherwise , are mistaken . And though there be a distinction premised of converting to the Faith , or formall profession , and a converting to a spirituall sincere Faith in Iesus Christ ; yet this distinction makes not any thing against the Sacrament , to be given before the Word , even for conversion to the first Faith , or faith from Paganism ; which neither Scriptures , nor practice of Christ , or any Disciple of his , from Apostles to the seventy , and so down through any age , to our own , that ever I could read on , practised : and yet the principles laid down in Fol 38. will infer such a consequence , naturally and truly ; for the Vindication saith in Fol. 38. That the Word , and all Ordinances , are alike for conversion ; and if so , the Sacraments may be used as well to convert from Paganism , and administred singly by themselves , as the Word by it selfe may be taught .

Secondly , The Vindication saith , That it is doubtlesse to be given to all , for else it had been an impertinent and ineffectuall thing to administer to close Hypocrises that are carnall Christians .

Whence we may infer , That because the Counsels of the Lord in all his Administrations , do not clearly appeare , but through the Vindications of his own suppositions and premises ; therefore he concludes fully , That it were impertinent and ineffectuall , when as there appeares no such end at all in the institution of it , but rather two other ends .

One which himselfe laies down , as occasionall or evidentiall , for the damnation , and hardening some ; though I scarce allow him that , that Ordinances of mercy and grace , are properly active to condemnation .

The other which he never thinks on in his Book , is this , That God having left no infallible Rule for discerning , hath ordered it by a pure Gospell-rule , which if wicked men will come up to , they hazzard greater condemnation .

Further we may infer , That things may be called impertinent and ineffectuall , which are instituted of the Lord , when the reasons of the Lords Institution appeares not to us ; and that we may put our own suppositions and ends upon any administration in the Word , when his ends are not cleare to us ; nay , and conclude against any other end then that of our own conjecture , or supposed probable reason ; which I am confident is too too grosse to be in the learned Author Intentionally , though not consequentially , in his Vindication .

But the ends which I clearly gather from the Analogie of things in Gods dispensation , are these ; Why the Sacrament ; though according to the institution delivered to Hypocrites , yet is no converting Ordinance ?

God having left no infallible Rule of discerning his , but only a ▪ Rule for outward evidences , the Ordinances must either be administred to all , walking according to the Rule of outward evidences , or to none ; and according to that Rule , Hypocrites may come in , and do ; yet that is no sin to the Administrator nor Communicants , so long as Administrations be ordered according to that Rule , and Gods End of his revealed Will shewed .

Secondly , The worke of sifting , and reaping , of dividing betwixt the Tares and the Wheat , the Sheep and the Goats , is the work of the great day of the Son of man ; and therefore , though Ordinances be administred here to Hypocrites ; yet at the time of the finall discerning , the communicating of Hypocrites shall be visited in judgement , and greater condemnation upon them . So as there is no need of framing it into any Notion of a converting Ordinance , lest otherwise it prove impertinent or ineffectuall ; for if the close Hypocrites be finally impenitent ones , God reckons for a greater sin ; if not , yet it is no more impertinent then the Word is to all the children of God , who yet never partake truly of it , till converted .

Thirdly , That the distinction of his into the first conversion from Papanism to Faith ; and secondly , from a formall Faith , to a true sincere Faith in Jesus Christ , which is the corner Stone in his building , is a distinction , and certain degrees , which we have not in any such Notion in the Word ; nor if it were , doth it appeare that the Scriptures place administration upon the bottom of any such distinction , though he doth it ? But suppose I grant it , yet a formall profession then , as he contends for , and many other , was not such as is now , since Kingdoms were Christia●ized ; but a profession then was according to the Rule of evidence , till the contrary appeared , as in all the first gathered Churches , as in Simon Magus , Ananias , &c. And formall profession then , was as much as a kind of powerfull profession now ; for then it was persecution , to take up an Ordinance or Name of Christ , and now it is faction on the Law of the Land , as well as the Law of the God , to professe Christ ; neither were the whole Counsels of the Spirit of Christ brought forth then to make up the rule of evidences , as afterwards ; but they were brought forth by degrees , till the whole Scriptures of the New Testament were finished . And we are now to take the whole Counsels of God concerning Administrations , as laid down in the whole New Testament , and not by parcels , though so much as they did professe in the first time of gathering , were rule enough then , to them , when no more was revealed , yet not to us now , who have a full Gospell for our learning : And this mistake or want of just consideration of times , and Scriptures , is the ground of all the mistakes .

Vindication , Fol. 41.

Why should not the Sacrament doe the like , since Gods Spirit equally breathes , and works in all his Ordinances , and may , and doth regenerate , and beget grace in mens souls ?

Inference .

Whence we may infer , That it is lawfull , according to this Principle to beleeve , That if one Ordinance convert , any other may , whether God hath instituted so or no. We know the Lord hath appointed and ordered every Ordinance to its nature , kind , and use ; and Gods institution is to be the rule of our beleeving , and reasoning , and practising , not because such a thing works so , therefore any thing works so as that thing works . The Author himselfe reasons against this in another place , and that there is no right inference , but in things of the like kind , and under the like precept , as thus : The Word is able to convert , therefore all Preaching and Prophesying is able to convert ; but not therefore the Sacraments can convert .

Vindication , Fol. 41.

The Sacraments are by all Divines whatsoever , and the very Directory , pag. 52. ever enumerated among the means of Grace and Salvation ; Why then should they not be the means of converting ?

Inference .

Whence we may inferre , That it is warrantable to expound Divines , and the Directory contrary to their intent and meaning , and to inferre conclusions from them , to prove things which are not only very disputable , but unwarrantable , as far as any Scripture makes appeare , either in any plaine precept , or president , and especially to turne the Directory , being a Publike forme made by the Assembly , so much against their sense and meaning , as appeares by divers of their judgements of late , is an attempt , much like that of expounding a Law or Ordinance of Parliament in a private sense ; not in their own ; and this quotation of a Directory , in this kinde , is enough to make it all questionable , and to draw on a necessity of a publike interpretation upon it .

Vindication , Fol 41 , 42.

That receiving Sacraments is usually accompanied with effectuall means , as serious examinations , solemne searching out of all open and secret sinnes , with confession , contrition , humiliation , prayers of pardon , secret purposes and vowes , sundry pious and soul-ravishing meditations of Gods mercy , exhortations , admonitions , by the Ministers : And why is not the Sacrament a more fit and apt Ordinance to regenerate , convert ungodly and scandalous sinners , then the bare Word preached ?

Inference .

Whence we may infer , That there are certaine preparations and qualifications in men meerly unregenerate , which are here lifted up into something more then naturall or carnall workings , or filthinesse of the flesh ; as prayers for pardon of sin , pious and soul-ravishing meditations , with humiliation , contrition , confession , &c. Now I would faine know , what there is in man before the glorious light of Jesus Christ hath opened his eyes , and brought him out of prison , out of darknesse into light ? What kind of prayers can such make ? What pious meditations can such have of Gods mercy in Christ ? What contrition is there in such ? What humiliation ? Without faith it is impossible to please God ; and the carnall minde is enmity against God ; nor is it subject to the Law of God , nor indeed can be ; and they that are in the flesh , cannot please God . What is all this then of prayers ? When as the prayers of the wicked are abominable ; What are all those flourishes and noise of vowes and purposes , and contrition , and meditations of an unregenerate man , when they all are but glorious sins ? Doe men gather Grapes of Thornes , or Figges of Thistles ? Why should nature be made proud with these expressions ? And any ground laid for boasting ?

And whereas it is said , that the Sacrament is a more apt means to convert , then the bare Word preached , we may infer some derogating and diminution , or lessening implyed here of the Ordinance of the Word or Ministery , because it is said , Then the bare Word , as if so be , that the Word were a bare Word , when it comes in the power of salvation to regenerate , when the Spirit quickens it , and makes it a Word of truth , of grace , the power of God unto salvation ; and we see the Word or Ministery it selfe is called , The Preaching of faith , The Ministery of Reconciliation : The Sacrament is not called so any where , though no lesse glorious neither : And Christ and his Apostles and Disciples went every where preaching the Word ; but not administring the Sacrament but only there , where the ministery of the Word had first brought them under the power of the Gospell-Order , and Rule for Ordinances of a more spirituall institution .

Vindication , Fol. 4● .

That because we behold Christs death and passion more visibly represented to our eyes and hearts in the Sacrament , and remission of sinnes more sensibly applied to us , then in any other Ordinances ; therefore it is certainly the most powerfull Ordinance of all others , to regenerate and covert ; with many Scriptures to prove conversion by representation .

Inference .

We may infer , That because the Lord hath instituted his signe of Bread and Wine in the Supper to his owne end ; therefore it will serve to any end : That we can prove of our owne imagining , upon certaine rationall conclusions from Scripture or reason , without particular Scriptures authorizing or appointing it to such an end ; and therefore all these grounds , consequences , and notions which are formed upon a likelihood and probability , are nothing to prove any direct use of the Sacrament to such an end , without , as I have said , a speciall Word , Precept , or Practise , or just Consequence from Scriptures , directed to such a proof ; for else there is scarse any thing but we may reason into a notion of likelihood : but faith must have better grounds , and not of private interpretation ; and the Scriptures that are alleadged , must not be to prove that things of lively representation may most affect the soul , and have done so ; but that these Scriptures are plainly or powerfully directed by the Spirit of God to prove the very Institution of the Supper to that end ; which none of those Scriptures prove , that are alleadged in Fol. 42.

Vindication , Fol. 43.

That God doth as effectually teach , convert , and work grace by the eye as eare ; and therefore were the Sacraments , Sacrifices , Types , Miracles , &c. Why should not then the visible expressions of Christ in the Sacrament now , have the like effectuall converting power .

Inference .

We may infer , as we have done before , That all these are but Why should nots ? no words of Institution or Authority in the Scripture for it . But further , the Legall Sacraments , &c. were carnall , and more to the sense , and more of representation , but these are more in the spirit under the Gospell ; we worship now in spirit and in truth , not by representations , as under the Law : And therefore it is , that the Gospell-Ordinances are so few , so plaine , and poore to the eye , that the soule may not be taken up with the signe , but with things spirituall : And we may observe , that as little as can be of outward elements are made use on ; as in Baptisme , meere water ; and in the Supper , Wine and Bread ; and the first Ordinance is called the Baptisme of the Spirit , not of water ; and the Bread and Wine , The Communion of the Body , and of the Bloud of Christ , not Bread and Wine : And , faith the Apostle , If we have known Christ after the flesh , henceforth know we have no more .

And further , What is it that is said of grace comming in by the eye ? This is the way the Papists let in Christ , having made the eye rather the Organ for conversion then the eare : Now Faith commeth by hearing , and therefore all their Idolatrous Pictures , their Imagery ; and theabicall representations are all for the eye , and bringing in Christ by Obtick or sense , and making conversion to be by perspective , and working only an historicall faith .

And further , What is it that is said of working grace by the eye ? As if the carnall part could advantage conversion by any power there , but such a power as is meerly carnall and naturall ? What can all these signes of the Lord Iesus doe upon a blinde soul , as all unregenerate men are ? What are the glorious colours to him that hath no eyes to see ? The signes of bread and wine are given for working symbolically , or by signe , upon a soule or understanding spiritually enlightened before , and having a discerning ; and therefore it is that the Apostle saith , He that eats and drinks unworthily , eats and drinks damnation to himself , not discerning the Lords Body ; which , if the Supper had been a converting Ordinance , the Apostle would not have charged the unworthy from receiving , but rather have encouraged them in their receiving , that , of unworthy , they might have been made worthy : But you see he cals for a right discerning of the Lords Body first , which cannot be a calling of the unregenerate or unconverted to a partaking , because they have no right discerning of the Body of Christ , but by the sense first converted .

Vindication , Fol. 44.

1. That the most humbling , melting , soul-changing , sin-purging , mollifying meditations , of all others , are from Christs death and passion , &c. and therefore , &c.

2. Afflictions and corporall punishments are converting Ordinances ; therefore , &c.

3. That unworthy participating is a meanes of spirituall hardening ; and so by the rule of contraries , a worthy receiving an instrument of conversion .

4. All the ends of it are , as appeares , so spirituall ( see his Scriptures ) that how is it possible it should not be Gods intention , and Christs Ordination , to be a converting Ordination ?

5. Conversion is a turning of the whole man unto love , obedience of God in Christ , from the love of the world , &c. and what engine more powerfull for the forecited respects or spirituall ends ?

6. Experience in every Christians conscience , whose preparations and approaches to this Sacrament were the first effectuall means of their conversion ; yea , they had not been converted , if debarred from it .

Inference .

We may inferre upon the first , That there are soul-melting meditations in a soul unconverted , or unmelted ; and that there are soul-changing meditations in a soul unchanged ▪ which the Scriptures never speak on ; such waies of conversion are no waies in the Word that we read on , but hidden paths for the spirit , of mans devising .

Secondly , that because afflictions are therefore Sacraments are that is , because one thing is therefore another thing is : This is but the Old Argument , But God may sanctifie any thing at his own pleasure , to make way for Conversion and yet that no instituted Ordinance for conversion neither : Because some have been converted when afflicted , when sick , when poor ; therefore will you first go afflict them , and make them sick , and poore , taking all they have from them , that you may convert them , and so make them standing Ordinances ?

Thirdly , Is a rule of contraries a rule in the Scriptures , or in Logick ? But it is said , Worthy receiving is an instrument of Conversion , that is , Conversion is a meanes of Conversion : who can receive worthily , till in Christ , till converted ?

4. But all the ends of it are spirituall , and how is it possible but then it should convert ? This How is it possible ? is like that of Why should it not ? both of one strength to prove it ; for though the ends be never so spirituall , yet if there be no warrant for any such institution as conversion , all the reasons & extrinsecall or strange consequences , as all such are , cannot institute an Ordinance : none but God and Christ ; and therefore the Popish Arguments built upon such forreigne and externall ( though rationall ) consequences are not immediate nor intrinsecall enough to warrant any thing of their will-worship .

5. But ●● is a powerfull engine : Yea , but only for what it is instituted and o●dained ; nor is it lesse excellent , because it converts not , because every thing is beautifull in its order and place , and law of creation .

6 But the experiences of Chrictians witnesse , who had never been converted , if not at the Sacrament : But what Christians are these ? What kind of experiences are these ? I question the truth of all such conversion who have only such experience , as this , because that such experience , crosses the Word and way of the Spirit , and those are no right experiences , which are not Scripture-experiences .

But , some had not been converted , if debarred from it . This is a strange assertion , against that of the Word , The spirit bloweth where and when it liste●● ; and some are called at one houre of the day , some at another ; and how is it cleare that the Sacrament converted such or not some other act of the Word at that time , or about it ? Shew me that Christian , among so many , that can evidence his act of conversion meerely , barely , singly , immediately from the act of communicating , and then there is something proved to justifie an experience of Conversion at such a time ; but still not to justifie the Sacrament an Ordinance-Conversion ▪ and so to be used .

Vindication , Fol. 46.

Is any Master or Parent so unnaturall and sottish to deny his children or servant wholesome meat to feed their bodies ? And shall any Minister be so irrationall or inconsiderate , in denying the spirituall food ?

Inference .

Whence we may inferre , That the Vindication takes all unconverted persons , by this comparison , to be alive , and spiritually quickned , or else it were , as he sayes , unnaturall , sottish , irrationall to give them food : And if they be unconverted , as he pleads for , then who is so unnaturall , sottish , irrational , or inconsiderate , as to give them any ? Men onely hold forth food to the living , and not to the dead .

Vindication , Fol. 46.

Physitians had an errour , to deny drink to men in Feavers , which murdered Thousands ; but now they see this deadly mistake , and corect it : So let not this errour creep into Divinity and Divines , in denying the cup to such Feaverish Christians , burning in the flames of sin and lust .

Inference .

Whence we may inferre , That there is in the unconverted a spirituall Feaverish thirst after Christ , as there is in the sicke after drink . But oh ! Doth the same fountain send forth sweet and bitter waters ? Are there any such spiritually-feaverish desires in soules meerly carnall and ●●regenerate ? Can the burning in the flames of sin and lust breath any such heavenly longings ? Can there be any desires but sinfull desires after Christ ? Can any but a soule like Davids pant after the water-brookes ? Are the flames of sin and lust like that heavenly fire in the bosome which the Prophet speaks on ? Doe the hearts of any burn within them , but when Christ is in their company , and when spiritually inflamed by him ? Are the kindlings of sin like the kindlings upon the Altar ? Is the fire in the kitchin like the fire in the Temple ? Are the burnings of hell like the burnings of heaven ? If not , Why are we told of men burning in the flames of sin and lust after Christ ? The doctrine is not more unwarrantable then the expression is uncomely .

Vindication , Fol. 47.

A Peradventure we may receive or doe good , by such a particular Ordinance or action , is a sufficient encouragement for us to adventure on it in other cases ; let it be also warrantable in such cares where they have at least a probability , a possibility , a peradventure , it may be , and a Who knoweth but it may convert ?

Inference .

Whence we may inferre , That the summe of all the former Arguments now summed up , you see , will reach no higher then to a Peradventure , or to a may be . And whether these be such Scripture-grounds or assurances for administrations of the Ordinances of God , I appeale to all the world of beleevers , who knows , that May bees , and Peradventures , are not to be allowed any place in the practicail obedience of Christians ; but clear , demonstrative , solid and certain Maximes or Principles ; for , Whatsoever is not of faith , is sin : and , He that doubteth is damned : and , Happy Rom. 14. is he that condemneth not himselfe in what he doth . And who knowes not , that what is done upon May bees and Peradventures , cannot be done of faith nor perswasion ?

Vindication , Fol. 51.

That the Presbytery or Classis may order a Suspension from the Sacrament or any other Ordinances ; provided that this power be claimed by no Divine Right , but by Parliamentary Authority , and Humane Institution .

Inference .

Whereby we may infer , That what is not to be warranted in the Word , yet if Humane Authority will undertake it , it shall not be excepted against by the Vindication . But where is there that Authority that will adventure so far , to make up any thing in spirituall Administrations ▪ that there is no Spirituall nor Scripture-warrant for ? I am sorry to see the Vindication set the Parliamentary Authority so neer to Humane Invention , of whom we are perswaded better things then to take the Patronage of any such thing , which is not warrantable by the Word ; but rather to suspend all , then to settle any thing so close to the highest Administrations in the Word , which is of meer Humane Invention . Nay , I will prove this to be the very Maxime and practice of that honourable Senate , who have therefore rooted out Episcopacy , professed to the most high God in a Covenant against all Will-worship , and Traditions of men ; and therefore let us not roll such a golden ball before Authority , to put them out of their way after Christ , who have followed him so close hitherto , both in their searchings in the Word , and in their tendernesse of persecution , least they might scourge Christ out of his own Temple , and not know it .

Vindication , Fol. 57.

The practicall power of godlinesse is generally more evidently visible , and the lives of the generality of the people more strict , pious , lesse scandalous and licentious in our English Congregations , where there hath been powerfull preaching , without the practice of Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament , then in the Reformed Churches of France , Germany , or Scotland : Our English Ministers and Protestants generally excell all others , notwithstanding their strict Discipline .

Inference .

Whence we may inferre , That the Vindication , though it pretend in the generall or face of it , to be for Presbytery , yet it is very clear , that , in aspersing the government of all those Reformed Kingdomes where the practice and power of it hath been , it secretly wounds the glory of it in the opinion of the world ; and though it pull not downe the Government quite , yet it weakens the Postes , or judgements of men , on which it stands . I name not See fol. 3. &c. here the other Texts that the Vindication hath pull'd out of the building of the Presbyteriall Government ; for the taking out the Scripture , are like the pulling out the nailes and pins from the house , and a loosning of the frame . This I observe , because the Vindication professes so for that Government ; though I suppose many such friends , in time , might do as much harme , if not more , then those of the Separation , whom he cals their enemies . Surely , I do beleeve , France , Germany , Scotland , had rather such Books were not writ in their behalfe that opens the evill , corruption , and grievances of their Government so much ,

But I shall argue further : What need such comparing of the mixt Congregations of severall Kingdoms ; ours and theirs ? Surely they are all corrupt enough , and mixt enough ; and a Law for all sorts of sinners to communicate , as the Vindication would have , would not much more referme , because it would then be a kind of Church-priveledge to be a sinner , or a scandalous person ; and to be something notoriously wicked , Would be a way of enrighting them to Church-Ordinances , according to the Principles of Vindication , however some faire pretences and Colours are laid on , that we should beleeve the contrary .

But what of all this ? I beleeve there is another reason why the Government hath brought forth no more power of Godlinesse upon the Kingdoms then the Vinaication observes ; because neither the Parishes are constituted , nor yet the Government , according to Gospell-order : yet I honour them as Beleevers , and Brethren in the Lord , according to their light .

Yet I observe another secret , why the preaching of the Word thrives better , and reformes more then the Government in these Kingdoms , because that the Preaching of the Word is an Ordinance of the Lord ; and when preached or held forth to ungoldly scandalous , and notorious sinners , is but according to its right order of Institution so preached ; the end of the Lord is but fully and clearly served ; because the Word , in the ministery of it is appointed for a converting Ordinance ; but the Government and Discipline being not instituted as a converting Ordinance primatily , but for a people already converted and brought in it cannot be accompanied with such power from heaven , became it is not managed according to pure Gospell-order , nor upon a people rightly prepared and fitted : so as the fault is not , because there is a Government , as the Vindication observes ; but , not the pure Government nor the Government rightly placed .

And for his Charge against the purer Congregations , as I know not any such doings amongst them ; so I will make no Apologie for them , because that would bring them within the compasse of something like a crime ; and I know nothing but well by them .

THE NEW QVAERES . Folio 1. Of the Vindication propounded to the Honourable PARLIAMENT & ASSEMBLY .

Quaere 1.

WHether a bare Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament , not backed with Authority of the Civill Magistrate , be not like to prove an impotent , and invalid , and ineffectuall meanes ? Whether it be not a far better way , in point of Conscience and Prudence , to admit scandalous persons to the Sacrament , not actually excommunicated , though they thereby eat and drinke judgement to themselves , then to deprive any to whom it really belongs ?

Antiquaere 1.

Whether is there any excommunication or no ? For the Vindication questions it , in calling it an invalid thing ; and if so , How can any such thing be setled at all as an Ordinance in the Church ?

Whether ought Authority to joyne it selfe with any thing so questionable as the Vindication would have it ? Since nothing hath proved more fatall .

Whether excommunication being granted , be any such bare thing , as the Vindication speaks on , so impotent , 〈…〉 ▪ and ineffectuall , without being Authorized from a power from men ? And whether the Ministers are to strike with the Magistrates Sword ?

Whether all the differences about Excommunication , be not from the want of true Church-constitution ? And whether a Nationall Church be not too wide for the Ordinances , and the Scabbard too big for the Sword ? And whether Solomons Temple and Christs be all of a largenesse , so that one golden 1 Kings 6. 4. Reed will measure both ? Whether the old Temple that had Windowes of narrow Lights , be any pattern for the new ?

Whether any thing of Prudence , As admitting scandalous persons to eat their owne damnation , as the Vindication saith , Rather then to deprive them , to whom it really belongs , be any Scripture-way of arguing ; which forbids us not to doe evill that good may come thereby ?

Whether any sin or offence be committed in such cases of deprivation of scandalous persons , seeing , though it may really belong to them , yet the Church nor Dispenser not knowing any such thing , nor judging , but only by the Rule of visible walking to the Word and the Rule of evidences there , for Administration of Ordinances , can faithfully administer but accordingly ; for they that walke according to this Rule , peace be on them , and on the Israel of God .

Whether the Law of God in this , be not as equitable as the Law of Man , which judges not of secrets , nor takes cognizance of things unknown ?

Whether it be not rather the scandalous persons only sin , who if he have a reall interest , will not live in the evidence of it , nor walke by the Rule of Administrations , that he may partake ?

Quaere . 2. Fol. 51.

Whether the suspending such persons from the Sacrament , being no Ordinance of Christ without a totall suspension , will not be a meanes rather to harden ? And whether their admission be not rather a more probable way of reclayming , being accompanied with serious Admonitions , Exhortations , publike and serious Reprehensions .

Reasons .

1. Because that such persons are more hardned by it , totall exclusion only working shame .

2. Because against their receiving like Italians in Lent , they will be holy for a day or two , and make vows , &c. and may be so converted .

3. Many then will read , &c. which would not do so before , in an Hypocriticall conscience ; and the Sacrament is a Covenant which binds all receivers to reforme .

4. The Sacraments are so accompanied with Examinations , Exhortations , &c. that ten to one would be converted by such admonition rather then by suspention ; therefore Christ when he came to save sinners , permitted Luk. 7. 34 , &c. them familiarly to him and his Ordinances .

Antiquaere 2.

Whether Excommunication according to the Vindication grounds , being a questionable Ordinance , as well as suspention , one of them may not be as well made use on , as the other ; Suspention as well as Excommunication upon his grounds ?

Whether the Admonitions , Exhortations , Reprehensions , Examinations , be such as Christ appointed to make the Sacrament an Ordinance for all scandalous sinners to come to , or rather to quicken and spiritualize the worthy receivers , who receive according to the visible Rule of Administrations , as the whole straine of Scripture precept , and practice speake ?

Whether all the three first Reasons presuppose not such a Church-constitution for Ordinances and partakers , as the Scriptures never speak on ? For where is there any such constituted Church of scandalous and Italianated persons , who were constituted according to the Rule ; and for Corinth , and the rest , that had such bad Members , they are not examples in that of gathering , or constituting , or administring , but reforming , as the Apostles who calls them to the rule of the Word . This one mistake hath deceived many . 1 Cor. 11.

Whether Christ in permitting scandalous sinners to converse with him familiarly , when he was here in the flest be any rule for admitting all such sinners now to the mystery of his spirituall Ordinances ? And whether there be not a spirituall difference betwixt Christ not offered , and offered , betwixt his conversing in the flesh , for making up the mystery of Redemption ; and the mystery of Redemption made up , and finished by the eternall Spirit , in which he offered himselfe ; betwixt Christ in the flesh , and in the Spirit or Ordinance ?

Whether did Christ intend his ordinary or occasionall converting , to be any rule for his Church or Kingdome in its Administrations or Ordinances , which is a worke of another forme ? And whether this intermingling of carnall and spirituall notions be a Scripture-way ? Whether ought we to force any consequences or inferences upon the Word for practise in administrations in things neither clearly , nor intentionally , for ought we see , nor mystically directed , appointed , or instituted by Christ ? And whether such a ground once granted , will not let in one kind of will-worship , as well as another ?

And for that ten to one , being converted so as he sayes ; Quere , Whether it is not ten to one any will be a converted , but rather hardned ?

Quere 3. Fol. 53.

Whether did Christ ever intend , that none but true believers , should receive his Supper , or did he not infallibly know that many unregenerate and impenitent should and would receive it ? And the Antagonists grant , that close Hypocrites have an external right ; then if these , why not others ? Christ having ordained the Sacrament of the Supper , as well as the Word , to be a savour of death to such ; and God hath his end in both , the glory of his Justice in the one , as well as of his Grace and Mercy in the other .

Antiquaere .

Whether did not Christ intend , that all should receive or communicate in outward administrations by an externall right ? And if so , then what ground is there for the visible , imponitent , or known scandalous ?

Whether if true saving faith were the one part of the Interest , and the externall right the other part of it , there be any ground left for the other Communicants ? And whether that the Scriptures rule , and purer practice of all Churches in the Gospell , excepting when falne , or beside the rule ; and the Scripture Cautions do not wholly exclude such scandalous impenitent persons pleaded for , against all other forrain , probable , possible , rationall , or Rethoricating consequences and conclusions to the contrary .

Whether the glory of Gods justice in the judgement upon unworthy receivers , be any ground to take in Communicants for condemnation , since it is full against other Scriptures , that Christ came not into the world to condemne the world ; and to save mens lives , not to destroy them ; and he would not the death of a sinner ? And whether , though finally condemnation be ordered for all such , yet no such thing being formally , externally , dispensatively ordered , any persons ought to be called in for condemnation in such a way ?

Whether this be not quite against the nature of the Gospell dispensation ; Christ under the Gospell dispensing himselfe , and giving out himselfe , as a Saviour , a Redeemer , and in all the Gospell declining judgement ; I come not to judge the world , reserving that worke till he appeare in his own day to condemnation of sinners , this being only his day of reconciliation to them .

Whether the Apostle in Rom. 3. where he saith , But if our righteousnesse commend the righteousnesse of God , is God unrighteous , who taketh vengeance ? And not rather as we be slanderously reported ; and some affirme that we say ; Let us do evill , that good may come thereof , doth not parallell this ; For the Apostle here though Gods righteousnesse and justice was set forth by his justice upon sinners , yet he did not say as in the Quaere is said , Let us then do evill that God may be glorified , or good may come thereof .

Quaere 4. Fol. 53.

Whether all Ordinances proving alike good or bad ; saving or damning ; and impenitent persons , as well encreasing their damnation by hearing , praying , fasting , &c. What reason can be rendred by any rational Christian , why such persons should not be admitted to the Sacrament , as to any other Ordinance , or not suspended equally from all ?

Antiquaere .

Whether any such consequence of admission or suspention from Ordinances , ought to be grounded upon damnation or judgement , but rather upon words of command and institution , and Scripture-practice ? And if any such appeared , all these Consequences which the Vindication draws forth , wringing bloud , and not milke from the Word , might be saved ; and he need not go so far about , which when all is done , brings a soule , but at best , upon a probable , specious , or reall coloured Argument .

Whether , since the Vindication pulls down cleare Scripture-Texts and grounds in this Controversie , to weaken the building of his Adversary , he ought not in conscience first to have had a cleare Word or Institution for Fol. 3 , ● , 6 , 9. the contrary practice , and not only probable , and litterally conclusive grounds , that soules can stand at surest upon ; but like men upon Ice , who are in as faire a probability to fall , as stand ? And whether having taken away In Fol. 3 , 4 , 6 , 9. the Scripture-Texts for Presbytery it selfe , he can well hold up any upon his grounds ? And whether is not this sceptiall or doubtfull way of reasoning upon Scripture ; neither pulling quite down , nor building up , a way rather to fill all the roomes with rubbish ; and at length , neither to have new building nor old . What man going to build a Tower , sitteth not down first , and seeth what it will cost him , lest having begun , and not able to finish all , men begin to laugh at him , saying , &c. But whether is not all this ado about Ordinances , rather for want of a right and purer constitution of Churches , which would save all this controversie about scandalous and impenitent sinners , when the Church were not troubled with such , where the Ordinances are .

P. Well , I am by this time well perswaded ; and having heard all this , for my part , I cannot but see that in setling things suddenly upon the Kingdom , and things thus questionable , and unwarrantable in the way of Administration , and a Kingdom so full of impenitent and scandalous sinners , as Parochiall Congregations generally are , there is danger of great sin , and great trouble .

C. I will therefore adde two or three Arguments more , and so conclude .

An Experimentall-Argument for pure Churches and Ordinances .

THere is a spirituall Antipathie betwixt Grace and Nature , Flesh and Spirit ; the Flesh lusting against the Spirit , and the Spirit against the Flesh : and the more spirituall , or more carnall , the more these two contrary Natures worke , and the more powerfully against each other , as in Sarah and Hagar , Isaac and Ishmael , and the lesse or more they can beare with each other : As for example : While Iudas carnall nature or disposition , uninflamed by Satan , boyled and heightned not into any such grosse act as selling and betraying of Christ , the Disciples bore with him more , and Christ himselfe , as he was man and in a state of Infirmity , could more endure him , then upon the breaking out of his sin : and so in Simon Magus , in Ananius and Saphira , and others , whom the Apostles could no longer suffer , not by way of Discipline , or inflicting Censure , but by way of a spirituall contrarinesse to such grosse hypocrisie and sin discovered : And so the experiences of all that are of a pure Gospell-temper , will witnesse to this very Age , in acts of spirituall fellowship and Community , in all acts of Worship , &c.

This is founded not only on spirituall antipathies and sympathies , but in naturall and civill ; naturall things of a contrary nature , bearing one another no lesse ; and things of a civill nature , yet contrary doing the like .

Hence arise separations meerly naturall , and sensitive , and rationall : Hence arises a particular Schism and separation in all the things of the world , and a secret gathering and contracting of things from the contrary into the same kinde : the common purity being lost , as the Apostle implies , Rom. 8. by which Nature did at first more universally agree , as if one common spirit had been in it . And thus it was in the Churches of God at first , when three , foure , or five thousand did agree in one way of spirituall fellowship , Doctrine , breaking of bread , and Prayers ; but we see there is not now such pourings out of spirit upon multitudes and Nations , that a Nationall-Church should be together in such a unity of spirit . And under the Law there was even a weaker example in the people of the Jewes , being taken out from the people of the world and naturally hating all that were common and uncleane , as the Gentiles : And before the Law , the people of God did gather into Families and particular societies ; as in A●●●●am , &c. And those Families , the children of the Bond-woman and of the free never bearing but persecuting each other . So as all of pure spirituall constitution , cannot but experimentally finde a spirituall nature in themselves , working them into a more glorious fellowship then that of the world .

The sum of the Argument .

If then there be two contrary natures of Spirit and Flesh ; if these cannot , nor never could , in experience of all Age● , and according to the truth in Scriptures , and example of all there , beare each other into the same spirituall society or fellowship ; if nature it selfe in the creatures run out into antipathies and sympathies , that is into particular gatherings and separations , mutuall opposings and resistings of each other when together : Then spirituall and unmixt Communion and Fellowship from the world , and men of the world , is warrantable . But all this is undeniably true , to the experience of all : Therefore spirituall unmixt Communion and Fellowship from the world , and men of the world , is warrantable .

II. Argument from the Power of Spirituall Ordinances and Dispensations .

THe Gospel-Ordinances brought into the World a power , and spiritual Law in them , though in degrees and measures , and severall givings out , as in Johns time , and his Disciples , in Christs owne time , and his Disciples , and in the Spirits time , and according to these times of manifestation , believers were wrought upon : in Johns time they came out to the Baptism of Water ; in Christs and his Disciples , to the preaching of the Word ; in the Spirits time , to the B●p●●sme of the Spirit , to a more mighty and glorious working ; and all these times of Gospel-manifestation , had a prevailing losse , and more upon the believers of these severall times , in drawing them out from the World in part , though weakly : in Johns time , it is said , Then came out unto him all Judea ; yet though they were Baptised of him , they gathered not off into such particular societies , as after , The Kingdome of God then was but at hand in Christs time , though his preaching was powerfull , yet he let out the glory of his spirit , but sometimes with the Word , reserving his more glorious manifestations for other times ; and even here , though Christs preaching gathered in his Apostles and Disciples into some particular , and neerer way to himselfe , yet not many more ; nay , he rather left many , partly in that mixed condition of society he found them ; and so the Disciples Commission which was given , was to preach but little yet of Church - gathering , but by way of Prophecy , as in Matt. 16. and 18. The Kingdome of God was but yet at hand , not come : In the Spirits time , then the Kingdome of God was come , and then a mighty operation and measure of the Spirit was powred out , and then the believers through the powerfull working , were brought more off from the World , and began to gather in closer to Christ , and one another . And now all power was given to Christ , which was not before his Matt. 8. Ephes. 4. 8 , 11. Resurrection , and now he sets up a Kingdome ; All power is given into my hands and now the Kingdom begins to be set up in the hearts and practice of believers , and the Spirit to mold and cast the believers into Brotherhoods and societies , and the forme of a Kingdome ; and now the Laws and spirituall policy are given out for ordering this Kingdome : And we see how the people of God in Rome , Corinth , Ephesus , Galatia , drew off from the world , in the things of the Lord .

We see then how the Word did begin to worke Believers into a fellowship from the world ; and the more the spirit was given , the more and more off from the world , in all these severall times : And it is a rationall truth , and a clear conclusion , even to meer reason , that the more Christ , and his Spirit is in any , the more neer and close they will gather up to heaven and walkings with God ; and the more Christward any one is , the more off still from the multitude of the world : And thus the Ordinances of Jesus Christ , in which the Spirit breathes so powerfully , worke men off from the mixed world , into fellowship with the Lord , and that spirituall fellowship makes them rejoyce more in one another , then in any other that are more carnall : The more men live to Christ , the more they dye to the world , and are formed into the fellowship of his death and Resurrection .

The sum of the Argument .

If then the Ordinances and Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ had ever a power in some degree of prevailing upon the soules of Believers , according to the manifestation of the Spirit : and if this Spirit , flowing from God and Christ , carry up the soule to God and Christ , according to the measure given to those Beleevers ; and if the more they are carried towards Christ , the more they must come off from the world :

Then Congregationall or Church-order wherein Beleevers are gathered into fellowship with God in Christ and one another from the world , in the things of the Gospell , and unmixt communion , is warrantable . But all this is undeniably true from the Word . Therefore Church-fellowship and unmixt Communion is warrantable .

Argument III.

IF mixed communion and society came in upon the Apostacy and falling Rev. cha. 2 , 3 ▪ away , and Parochiall Congregations were formed up afterwards from such mixt Communion : If as Antichrist prevailed , so darknesse and corruption prevailed upon Beleevers : If Churches were called Golden Candlesticks Rev. ● ▪ ● ▪ 1 Cor. 1. 9. Ephes. . ● 19. &c. before and a Fellowship of Saints , and the Body of Christ , and Kingdom of God , till they grew mixed : If the mixt Congregations by Parishes came in first by Dyonisius Bishop of Rome , in the yeare 267. and in England by 2 Cor. 6. 5 , 16 , 7. Honorius Bishop of Canterbury ; and people were only made Congregations See the learned Mr. S●●den . Book●● ●● decimi● . by conveniency of situation , and the Law of Civill Policy : If Parishes were first the seats of Popery , and after the seats of Prelacy and now fall under the Presbytery in the same kind and Notion of a mixed multitude :

Then mixt and Parochiall Congregations are not that way and order of Christ for Ordinances which was the Primitive way revealed and practised in the Gospell But all this is undeniably true from the best Historians : Therefore not mixt Communion and fellowship , but pure and unmixt , is the only Ordinance of Christ .

Now I shall leave you for the present , and commend particulars unto you and the Kingdom : the one , A Rule of Evidences for Spirituall Communion , drawn from the Scriptures ; the other , A remarkeable passage in the Book of Vindication .

The Rule of Evidences for Spirituall-Communion .

MAtth. 15. 26. Chap. 18. 19 , 20. Joh. 10. 16. Acts 2. 44 , 46. Chap. 19. 9. Rom. 1. 7. Chap. 16. 17 , 18. 1 Cor. 1. 1 , 10. Chap. 5. 4 , 5 , 11 , 13. and 12. 12 , 13 , 14 , 20 , 25 , 27 ▪ 2 Cor. 5. 6 , 7. Chap. 6. 14 , 15 , 16 , 17. Gal. 5. 9 , 10 , 12 , 13. Chap. 6. 16. Ephes. 4. 3 , 4 , 25 ▪ Chap. 5. 1 , 2 , 11 , 12 , 21 , 30. P●il . 3. 15 , 16 , 17. 1 Thes. 3. 6. 2 Thes. 3. 14. 1 Tim. 6. 3 , 4 , 5. 2 Tim. 3. 5. Tit. 3. 10. Heb. 10 ●● . 1 Pet. 2. 9. 1 Joh. 1. 7. 2 Joh. v. 10 , 11. Revel. 2. 14 , 15 , 20. Chap , 18. 4. and 19. 20.

A remarkable Passage in the Vindication-Booke .

ANd if our Assembly and Ministers will but diligently preach against that Catalogue of scandalous sins and sinners they have presented to the Parliament , and the Parliament prescribe severe Temporall Lawes and Punishments against them , and appoint good Civill Magistrates to see them duly executed , inflicted ; I am confident , that this would work a greater Reformation in our Church and State in one halfe yeare , then all the Church-Discipline and Censures now so eagerly contested for , will do in an Age , and will be the only true way and speediest course to reforme both Church and State at once ; which I hope the Parliament will consider of , and take care , that our Ministers ( like the Bishops formerly ) may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing , but Preaching and Instructing , which is worke enough , wholly to engrosse their time and thoughts .

FINIS .

LEt this Way of Peace and Reconciler among Brethren , intituled , The Smoke in the Temple ( more then ordinarily usefull in these times be printed .

Imprimatur , IOHN BACHILER .

The Smoke in the Temple . WHEREIN IS A DESIGNE FOR PEACE & RECONCILIATION of Beleevers of the severall OPINIONS of these Times about ORDINANCES , to a Forbearance of each other in Love , and Meeknesse , and Humility .

With the opening of each Opinion , and upon what SCRIPTURES each is grounded .

With the severall EXCEPTIONS which may be made against each Opinion from the SCRIPTURES .

With one Argument for Liberty of Conscience , from the NATIONALL CONVENANT .

With another Argument to prove the Gospell , or New Testament of Iesus Christ the very Word of God ; Tendred to all the Beleeuers , to shew them how little we have attained , and there is a more glorious Fulnesse to be revealed .

With a Discovery of the Antichristian way of Peace , &c. for Opinions .

With a full Answer to Master LEY , One of the Assembly of Divines , against my late New Quaere .

With some spirituall Principles drawn forth of the Controversie .

Rev. 15. 8. And the Temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God , and from his power : and and no man was able to enter into the Temple , till the seven plagues of the seven Angels were fulfilled .

By Iohn Saltmarsh , Preacher of the Gospell at Brasteed in KENT . THE THIRD EDITION .

Printed for Giles Calvert , at the Signe of the Black Spread-Eagle , at the West-End of S. PAULS . 1646.

To the Right Honourable the Lord Vicount SAY and SEALE , and Lieutenant Generall CROMWEL . Noble Patriots ,

IF I mistake not , you may here single out somthing of the Lords from what is mine , and discerne some beames of God amongst many things of man . I know the candle of the Lord cannot shine any where with more snuff then in me ; however since the Lord hath lighted it , I dare not but let it shine ( or rather glimmer ) before men . I have writ your Names to my Book that I may be one of your Remembrancers amongst the rest to the advancement of Truth ; not but they who know ye , know ye to be acted by a Spirit of Truth in your selves . The Lord remember ye according to all the good ye have done ( in your severall Ministrations ) to this people ; and do that for ye which gives you most , and yet takes most from ye , even filling ye with himself ; till he hath emptied ye of all but his own glory , and gathered ye up into the fulnesse and righteousnesse of himselfe in Christ , where we are only nothing in our selves , and every thing in him ; and surely the most , and best and greatest thing he can do for the sons of men , is , thus to make them nothing in their own account , that he that glorieth may glory in the Lord. I may seeme strange to wish ye thus ; but I know it is not strange to ye , who know the Mystery of the Spirit , and of Christ .

My Lord , and Sir , Go on still , yet still laying your designes in a glory above that of States and Kingdomes , and involving all your Counsels there , where there is most of Heaven , and least of the world .

So praies , Your Servant in the Lord , IOHN SALTMARSH .

To the Beleevers of severall Opinions for outward Ordinances or dispensations , scandalously called Independents , Presbyterians , Anabaptists , Seekers . Brethren ,

I Have fairly set down how far each of you have attained in the Mystery of Truth ; and surely we are all short of the glory which shall be revealed in the Temple or Church of God ; and there are such clouds rolling about each opinion , that may darken it , or something of it , So as things are not so cleare as they are commonly taken by each of us ; If any man think he knoweth anything , he knoweth nothing yet as he 1 Cor. 8. 2. ought to know : So as the common ignorance and infirmity amongst us , may be a rise for a common Vnity amongst us : and seeing we all come out of Babylon ( though in several waies ) to the glorious Temple or Tabernacle which God hath sent down to be with men , and walk thus diversly thither ; yet our severall and distinct goings are but like so many Travellers to the City of London ; some travell from the North , some from the South , and from the West , some from the East , yet all thither ; though too , there may be some mistaking of the way in each , because of the little light that is abroad . The gathering of the Saints into the Heaven , or Kingdom below , in this day of Revelation , is like the gathering at the last day , which shall be all into one glorious Body , though the gathering shall be from the four winds or ends of the Earth , by the severall Trumpets or Angels .

One thing I have more . Let us seek for the Spirit of wisdom and revelation , to open to us the Mystery of the Scriptures called The Revelation ; for in that Book is the Prophecie of the Churches laid up , and the seasons and times for Truth revealed . Let us search and seek out by the Spirit of Iesus , even that Iesus which was in the Vision , and gave it out to Iohn ; for there is none found worthy to open the Book with Seals but the Lambe . Surely in the Mystery of Angels , Vials , Sea of glasse with fire , Temple with Smoke , the Angell with the everlasting Gospell , the Angell enlightning the Earth , the Whore in skarlet and pretious pearles , the Cup of abomination , the Beast like a Lamb , the Image of the Beast , the Horus and Kings of the Earth , the marke in the forehead and in the right hand , the buying and selling , the Tabernacle of God with men , the first and second Resurrection , the Ihron● of God , the pure Chrystall River of water , the Holy Ierusalem descending from God , &c. In these is much of the glory wrapped up , and from these shall the Truth we contend for , appeare to our further enlightning .

Yet one thing more . We that are thus contenders for Ordinances , for the Temple and the Vessels in it , let us take heed we forget not him who is greater then the Temple ; for one greater then the Temple is here It would be spiritually considered , that while we strive for the Vessels and Cups , we spill not the Wine .

And it ought to be so carried by all of us , that ▪ because we are so much in opinion , we may not be thought to place Religion there , as I feare too many do , making a Christ of the very Ordinance of Christ , and pressing some outward Ordinances of the Gospell so legally ; as some hearing such a power of Salvation put into them , and finding an outward dispensation more easily got then the spirituall , make haste thither only , and then sit down as saved under a meere outward Ordinance . The Lord grant that we may neither undervalue an Ordinance nor the least Institution of Iesus Christ , nor raise it up into a Iesus Christ , and set up the Law above or beside the Law-giver . We must now learne to know Iesus Christ lesse after the flesh , and not to embody salvation in a meer outward dispensation , and so incarnate Iesus Christ over again from the glory and spirituality he is in .

Brethren , farewell ; For my part , I am fully assured from Scriptures of the Church of Christ here , or Gospell-fellowship of the Saints ; and unto this If any man wi●● do his will , he shall know of the Doctrine , Ioh. 7. 17. fellowship with the Father and the Son , I endeavour ; and I have one way to reveale Truth to me which I cannot conceale , nor yet cannot practice as I would , and that is this ;

To see Truth by living in the power of Truth , and by first obtaning Jesus Christ to live in us in the power of his suffering , death , and Resurrection ; for surely Jesus Christ must do all ( though more gloriously and spiritually ) over again in his , which he did in himselfe .

If Jesus Christ the Light be in us , the light by which every outward dispensation is seen , will flow in ; for where the Sun is , there will be every beame with it .

THE CONTENTS . A way of Peace , or a Designe for Reconciliation . 1 GOds Love the first and last glorious V●ion to be considered , to draw us to Vnity . Page 1 2 Names of Sect and Division to be laid down . p. 2 3 Passions and Railings forborn . Ibid. 4 Reviling each other for infirmities forborn . Ib. 5 The sins of any not to be laid on the Cause . Ib. 6 Liberty for Printing and Speaking . Ibid. 7 Let all subscribe their names to what they Print . Ibid. 8 Let all be severally accountable . pag. 3 9 Free Debates , and open conferences . Ibid. 10 Let us call Beleevers , though of severall Opinions , if the name of Brethren cannot be justly allowed . Ib. 11 No Beleevers to esteem too highly of themselves for what they attain to . Ibid. 12 No assuming infallibility over each other . p. 4 13 No civill power drawn into advantages . Ib. 14 Tendernesse in offending each other in things of an outward nature . Ibid. 15 Severall Opinions from the Gospels first discovery , yet all beleevers . p. 5 16 No despising for too much Learning , or too little . Ibid. 17 We be one in Christ , though divers , Ibid. 18 The Spirituall Persecution to be forborn . Ib. The Unwarrantable Way of Peace , or the Antichristian Design for Reconciliation . TO beleeve as the Church or Councils . p. 6 ●o set up o●e as the Pope , for Infallibility . Ib. To allow that all may be saved in their severall wayes . p. 7 To forbid Interpretings and Disputes . Ibid. By a compu●sive power . Ibid. The Opinions of these times . ● Resbytery so called , what it is , and what they hold . p. 8 ●ceptions against Presbytery . p. 9. ● dependency so called , what it is , and what they hold . Ibid. ●ceptions against Independency . p. 10 ●abap●isme so called , what it is , and what they hold . p. 12 Exceptions against the grounds of the new Baptism . Ibid. Seeking , or Seekers so called ; what their Way is , and what they hold . p. 16 Exceptions against them , Ibid. Conclusion . p. 19 The Gospell , or New Testament , proved undeniably to be the very Word of God . p. 20 One Argument from the Nationall Covenant ( Art. 1 and 2. ) for Liberty of Conscience . p. 23 Objections against it , answered . p. 25 , 26 Spirituall Principles drawn forth of the Controversie . GOspell-truth one and the same . p. 60 Prudence and Consequences , are the great Engines of Will-worship . Ibid. The People are Brethren and Saints in Christs Church ; but in Antichrists , Parishioners and servants . p. 61 Presbytery it self is founded on Principles of Separation , which yet they condemn for Schism in other Churches●ay , is the greatest Separation . p. 62 None to be forced under Christs Kingdom , as in the Kingdomes of the world . Ibid. The power of a formall Reformation , in a Government , makes it not Christs Government . p. 63 The visible Church or Communion , is the Image of the invisible or mysticall . p. 64 How Christ is a King of the Nations and of the Church ▪ and how an Head . Ibid. The Presbyteriall Government and the Worlds , of the same equall Dominion . p. 65 The Nationall , and Congregationall Church-covenant , both lawfull , or both unlawfull . Ibid. We receive and give out Truth by parts . p. 66 All Cove●an●ers are bound to contribute to Religion as well as State . p. 67 We are to try Truth , and so receive it in its degrees . p. 67 No Church-way Independency . p. 68 A spirit of Love and Meeknes becomes Beleevers . Ib. When a State-conscience is fully p●rswaded ; doubtfull , and so sinning . Ibid. A Post-script . with Salmasius his Testimony against the present Presbyteriall way . p. 69

A WAY OF PEACE : OR , A Designe of Reconciliation . How the Beleevers of severall Opinions , scandalously called Presbyterians , Independents , Anabaptists , Seekers , may be reconciled to forbeare one another .

(1) Gods love the first and last glorious Vnion to be considered , to draw us to Vnity .

ONe way , is , to consider love as it is in God , and flowing from him upon the creature : God is love , and he 1 Iohn 4. 8. 1 Iohn 4. 16. that dwelleth in love , dwelleth in God , and God in him . Now the more love there is in any , the more of God there is in any . Satan , the first fountaine of sin , made the first Schisme in the glorious Communion : All was one , and in one glory , till the first division , Luke 10. 18 ▪ Matth. 24. 12. and till Satan fell like lightening ; and he envying the whole Creation , which was in love with it self , and him that made it , drew it into sin , and antipathies , and mutuall persecutions ; and when it began to leave loving him that was pure and infinite love , it began to hate it self , and divide from it self : So as the lesse love , the more of Satan , and sin . The consideration of Gods love to himself , which 1 Iohn 4. 8. 1 Iohn 3. 6. Iohn 13. 1. is infinite , of his love to his , which is no lesse infinite , because to sinners ; and of his Sons love , spiritually uniting himself here , and gloriously hereafter , into one Body and Communion , cannot but make us love one another .

(2) Names of Sects and Division to be laid down .

Let all names and notes of distinction taken up by way of scandall and reproach , be laid down and forborn ; names and notions are like Standards and severall Colours in wars , whereby men are gathered into severall Orders , Armies , and bodies of division , one against another ; one saith I am of Paul , and 1 Cor. 1. 12 , 3 I of Apollo , and I of Cephas ; Is Christ divided ?

(3) Passions and railings forborn .

Let a spirit of meeknesse run in the arterie of Preaching and Printing : Let not passions , evill speaking , railings , which inflame and doe not edefie , be heard Prov. 6. ●8 . amongst us : the angry stir up strife ; wherefore let all bitternesse , wrath , malice , with evill speaking , be put away from you .

(4) Reviling each other for infirmities forborn .

Let there be no rifling into each others infirmities , to the advantaging or disadvantaging the cause : What is any thing of the man to the thing it self ? Phil. 1. 15 , 16 , 17 , 18. What is ones darknesse to the light he professes ? Any ones errours to a single truth ? There is rubbish enough every where if swept from every corner .

(5) The sins of any not to be laid on the Cause .

Let not the miscarriages , the failings , the sins , the hypocrisie , &c. of any that professe a Truth , with others , be charged upon the Truth he or they Luk 2● , 58 , 60 Gal. 2. 12 , 13 , 14. professe , making such sins to be the sins of opinion , not of the Person , as one of late , who hath charged the unfortunate end of one , as a fruit of seperation , See M. Bayly his Dissuasive . Acts 1. 25. whereas he might so argue against the very Doctrine of Christ , because of one Iudas , who did the like to himself .

(6) Liberty for Printing and speaking .

Let there be liberty of the Presse for Printing , to those that are not allowed Pulpits for Preaching : let that light come in at the window which 1 Thes. 5 19. cannot come in at the doore , that all may speak and write one way that cannot another : let the Waters of the Sanctuary have issue , and spring up Vallies as well as Mountains .

(7) Let all subscribe their names to what they Print .

Let all that Preach or Print , affixe their names , that we may know from whom : the contrary is a kind of unwarrantable modesty at the best : if it be truth they write , why doe they not own it ? if untruth , why doe they write ? Some such must either suppresse themselves for shame or fear ; and they that Prov. 28 1. dare not own what they doe , they suspect the Magistrate , or themselves .

(8) Let all be severally accountable .

Let all that Teach or Print be accountable , yet in a severall way ; if it be matter of immediate disturbance and trouble to the State , let them account for it to the Magistrate , under whom we are to live a peaceable and quiet life ; 1 Tim. 2. 2. if matter of Doctrine , &c. let them be accountable to the Beleevers and Brethren who are offended by conference , where there may be mutuall Gal. ● . 1 ● . conviction and satisfaction .

(9) Free Debates and open Conferences .

Let there be free debates , and open conferences , and communication for all , and of all sorts that will , concerning difference in spirituals : where doores are not shut , there will be no breaking them open ▪ so where debates are free , there is a way of vent and evacuation , the stopping of which hath caused more troubles in the States then any thing : for where there is much new wine in old bottles , the working will be such as the Parable speaks on ; still allowing the State to secure all tumults or disturbances .

( 10 ) Let us call Beleevers , though of severall opinions , if the Name Brethren cannot be justly allowed .

Let all who pretend to come out of the Antichristian State , be acknowledged as those severall Iewes and Christians , who came out of Iudaism and Acts 21. 20 1 Cor. 8. 7 , 8 , 10 Gentilism in the Apostles times ; some were more and some lesse zealous of the Law , yet all Beleevers ; some made conscience of the Idoll , and sacrifice , some not .

( 11 ) No Beleevers to esteeme too highly of themselves for what they attain to .

Because we are but yet commings out of Babylon , and the fall of Babylon not yet , the Smoke yet in the Temple , the Angels but powring out the Vials , the Rev. 5. 6. Rev. 18. 1. Angell that enlightens the earth with glory not yet flying through the heavens ; let not any account of themselves to have attained any thing yet as they ought , or to know there is not any Church or Beleevers ; but if one see more of one truth , another may see more of another ; if one see one thing for a truth , another sees another thing for a truth , and yet all see short of the fulnesse of truth ; there is so much want , darknesse , and so little light or glory in each , as is rather matter of humiliation and praise , then glorying and exception one against another : If any man thinke he knoweth any thing , he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know , 1 Cor. 8. 2.

( 12 ) No assuming infallibility over each other .

Let us not , being under no further degree of the revelation of Truth , and comming out of Babylon , assume any power of infallibility to each other ; so as to force up all to our light or degree of knowing or practising ; for there lies as much on one side for compulsion , as on another , respectively to one another ; for anothers evidence is as darke to me as mine to his , and mine to his as his to me , till the Lord enlighten us both for discerning alike ; So as when there is no power in us to make that appeare to another which appeares to Matth. 7 1 , 2. us , there can be no reasonable equity for any inforcing or compelling in spirituals . The first great rent betwixt the Eastern and Western Kingdomes , began when the Bishop of Rome would needs excommunicate the East , for not beleeving as they beleeved .

( 13 ) No Civill Power drawn into advantages .

Let not those Beleevers who have the advantage of the Magistrate , strive to make any unwarrantable use of it one against another , because Scripture principles are not so cleare for it , and because they know not the revolution of Providence , and we are to do as we would be done to : That very day which should have been a bloudy day to the Iewes , was turned into the contrary ; Esther and the Jewes had power over them .

( 14 ) Tendernesse in offending each other , in things of an outward nature .

Let there be much tendernesse in not offending each other , but pleasing one another to edification : Paul would not offend the Idolatrous weak : The 1 Cor. 9. ●0 . Rom. 15. 2. weakest and most superstitious makes most conscience of outward things ; and the strong should know , that Idoll or Idoll-Temple is nothing : Many a one are more offended at Truth by the carriage of another , who sometimes reformes with as much superstition , as the other offends . It is as much below 1 Cor. 8. 9. Rom. 14. 17. the glory of the Gospell to thinke one place unholy , as holy : No place can defile now Salomons Temple is not standing ; yet let all Truth be brought forth peaceably : Truth and Peace can offend nothing but that which may be justly offended , which is the corruption , not the person .

( 15 ) Severall Opinions from the Gospels first discovery , yet all Beleevers .

Consider the differences and severall Opinions from the first discovery of the Gospell : Some beleeved not Christs sufferings and Resurrection ; as the Iohn 20 9. Disciples whom yet Christ took to him , and walked with , and counted as his : Some beleeved not the Holy-Ghost , nor Christs Baptism , and were zealous Luke 24. 26. Iohn 3. 25. Acts 21. 20. Mat. 11. 1 , 2 , 5● of the Law , and yet the Disciples counted them as Beleevers . Johns Disciples would have followed Iohn only ; but Iohn sent two of them to Christ at one time and told them againe he must increase , but himselfe must decrease . Christ in his time would not forbid any that went about in his Muke 9. 38. Luke 9. 49. Name ; There is none that doth any thing in my Name , can lightly speak evill of me . When the Spirit was given , the Disciples bore one another out of the Church , as the Beleevers of Iohns Baptisme , and the zealots of the Law , and A●●s 19 ▪ 2 , 3. one another in the Church ; they that did eat , them that did not eat ; and they that regarded a day , them that regarded not a day ; walking together as far as they attained by the same rule .

( 16 ) No despising for too much learning , or too little .

Let not one despise another for gifts , parts , learning : let the Spirit be heard speak in the meanest : let not the Scribe or Disputer of the Law despise the Fishermen , nor they despise them because Scribes and Disputers : The Spirit is 1 Th●ss 5. 20. in Paul as well as Peter ; in both as well as one .

( 17 ) We may be in one Christ , though divers .

Consider that we may be one in one Christ , though we thinke diversly ; and we may be Friends , though not Brethren : and let us attaine to Vnion , though not to Unity .

( 18 ) The spirituall Persecution to be forborne .

Consider there is a twofold Persecution : There is a spirituall or that of Beleevers , and a mixt Persecution , or civilly Ecclesiasticall : The spirituall Persecution is that of the Spirit meerly , and this kind of Persecution little thought on and studied ; this is when we cannot be are one anothers severall Opinions or soul-belief , in the same spirituall Society , or fellowship , but they must either be of us , or out of us ; and surely , this kinde of Persecution is as unreasonable as any other ; for what is this but soul-compulsion , when another Phi. 3. 2 , 5 , 16. must only beleeve as we beleeve , and not wait till the Lord reveale even this ? This kind of spirituall compulsion will in time breake and dissolve the visible Communion of Saints , and Body of Christ exceedingly , if taken up or continued ; and it will be amongst Christians , as amongst the Antichristians where they divide and subdivide , and some cast themselves into a Monkery from all the rest : Ierusalem and Antioch were not of this way , to cast out one another Acts 15 3 , 4. upon such grounds , but to meet , reason , and counsell , and heare : And surely the Churches can ill complaine of a mixt persecution from without , if they persecute one another from within ; the Magistrate may as justly whip them both , as they whip one another : Such grudgings , complainings , dissolvings , spirituall inforcings , gives hint to the Civill power to compell , while it beholds them but a little more spiritually co●p●lling one another : Let all Church-rights , 1 Cor. 13. 12. Col ▪ 3. 13. 1 Cor. 8. 2. priviledges , boundaries be preserved ; all Heresie and Schism by the rule rebuked , but in all spirituall meeknesse and wisdome , and not call Heretick and Schismatick too suddenly , since we see but in part .

THE UNWARRANTABLE WAY OF PEACE : Or , The Antichristian Designe of Reconciliation .

(1) To beleeve as the Church or Councels .

THat all should beleeve as the Church beleeves ; and this Church is the great Councels of Bishops , Cardinals , &c ▪ as if the souls of all were to be saved only in the bundle of theirs , as if they could beleeve both enough for themselves and all others .

(2) To set up one as the Pope , for infallibilitie .

Because there may be difference amongst many , and all may not agree , therefore there shall be one ( say they ) with the Vrim and Thummim , one infallibly decreeing , and interpreting , and unerring , to whom the Spirit of Truth is successively derived ; and his determinations , interpretations , shall be finall , conclusive ; and this that Vicar of Christ , the Pope this one way in the Antichristian State , and all Reformed Kingdomes were once under this Peace .

(3) To allow that all may be saved in their severall wayes .

Because there be severall Beleevers , and severall interpretations and opinions , one saying , This is the way , and another That , therefore say some , All in all wayes may be saved , every one beleeving every thing . Now this is one way to make peace , but not the way ; there is but one Lord , one Faith , one Baptisme .

(4) To forbid Interpretings and Disputes .

Because several opinions arise by interpretings and disputings about Scripture , therefore all openings of the Word , all disputings must be forborne : Because the Sun-shine offends some weak sight in the house , shut up doores and windowes , and make all dark . Thus the Papists and Prelats in forbidding Scriptures and Marginall Notes ; and thus fearing there may be somthing false , they will heare nothing that 's true .

(5) By a compulsive power .

Some take the Civill power in to make peace , reckoning a compulsive Vniformitie for Vnity , Peace , and Truth . This is one way to deale with the body indeed , but not with the soul ; to mind the outward man , but not the inward . This way of Civilly Ecclesiasticall peace is the Antichristian designe , who having got the Kings of the Nations to give their strength , and power , and Rev. 17. 17. Kingdome unto them , supplies that from the world which they want from the Word , making the spirituall power of Iesus Christ to receive its honour , life , efficacie , power , from the power of men . This way of peace is such as hath by experience troubled Nations , and troubled it self at length too ; and broken it self against that way which it aimed to breake : For whosoever fals upon this stone shall be broken , and on whomsoever it shall fall , it shall breake Luk. ●8 . 18. them to powder .

THE OPINIONS OF THESE TIMES :

With the Exceptions each Opinion may be charged withall ; being the great Argument for Love , Meeknesse , and Forbearance one to another , or of Peace and Reconciliation till the Lord reveale more .

Presbyterie , So called ; What it is , and what they hold .

THe Presbyterie is set up by an * * Mat. 18. 15. Acts 15. 19 , 28 , 31. and 16 4. 1 Tim. 4. 14. Titus 1. 5. 1 Tim. 1. 2. Titus 1 6. Acts 13. 1. 1 Cor. 12. 17. alleadged Patern of the Eldership and Presbyterie of the Apostles and Elders in the first Churches of the Gospell , strengthened by such Scriptures as are in the margin , and by allusion to the Jewish Government , and to appeals in Nature . Their Churches are Parochial , or Parishes , as they are divided at first by the Romish Prelates and the Statute-Laws of the State . Which Parishes and Congregations are made up of such Beleevers as were made Christians first by Baptisme in Infancie , and ‖ Acts 6 6. 2 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Tim. 4. 14. Eph. 4. 11 , 12. Heb. 13. 17. Act. 20. 28 , 29. Rev. 2. 14 , 20. not by the Word : And all the Parishes or Congregations are under them , as they are a Classicall , Provinciall , and Nationall Presbyterie ; And over those Parishes they doe exercise all Church-power and Government ‖ ; which may be called , The power of the Keyes .

Exceptions .

1. THe Apostolicall and Primitive Eldership were not so * * Acts 15. 22 , 25 , 29. 2 Cor. 1. 24. 1 Pet. 5. 3. 1 Tim. 5. 1. Mat. 20 15. ‖ Acts 15. 29. Iohn 16 13. Gal. 1. 12. Acts 2. 43. authoritative over their Congregations as these pretend , nor so compulsive or forcing their respective Congregations .

2. The Apostolicall Eldership and Presbyterie were more ‖ infallible ; they were more in the light , and the immediate way of the revelation of Truth .

3. They tooke not in the power of the * * Marke 10. 42 Luke 2● . 25. Iohn 18. 36. ‖ Acts 1. 15. & 15. 23. & 14. 23. Magistrate to help them , nor did they clasp it as one with their own .

4. They consisted of ‖ Brethren as well as of the Presbyterie , and both together had a joynt interest and concurrencie in all power .

5. The Presbyteries were not as now , Classicall , Provinciall , Nationall : these are no Scripture-forms , but devises of men . 1. Tim. 6. 3. Mat. 15. 9. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

6. The * * Acts 20. 17. & 15 4. ‖ Mat. 16. 11. & 13. 3. Iohn 6. 12. Presbyterie is of no more in the Greek , then of a ‖ metaphorical or figurative signification , signifying Seniority or Eldership : and the setting it up in a notion of power and office , is more then the Scriptures will clearly beare : such Notions in the Word , are but Notions of form and order , not of Office .

7. The Presbyteries now are not rightly constituted , because they consisted of a Ministery from * * Rev. 13. 16. Mat. 7. 14 , 15 , 16 , 17. Antichrist , and the Bishops of Rome , ordaining Iohn 10. 1 , 5. Acts 19. 15. ‖ ● Cor. 14. 23. Acts 6. 3. 1 Cor. 1. 12. one another by the same power they received from them .

8. Their ‖ Congregations are not such as before , so constituted ; because Parishes are of a Popish and politick constitution .

9. Baptisme is not to be received by Generation now , as Circumcision was , but by * * Iohn 3. 5. Acts ● . 31. ‖ Gal. 3. 7. Ephes. 1. 15. Acts 3 22. Regeneration or visible Profession , as at first : Nor are the carnall seed now any more children of Abraham , but the ‖ Faithfull : And no Ordinance is now to be administred upon legall consequence , but upon Gospell-precept .

Independancy , So called ; What it is , and what they hold .

THe people of God are only a a a 1 Pet 2. 5. 1 Cor. 1. 2 , 9. Col. 1. 2. ● Cor. 6. 16 , 17. Acts 2. 41 , 42. Revel. 3. 1. 17. Acts 9. 26 Church , when called by the Word and Spirit into Consent or Covenant , and Saints by profession ; and all b b Matt. 18 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 20. Mat. 16. 18 , 19 Church-power is laid in here , and given out from hence into c c ● Cor 12. 28 Ephes. 4. 11. Pastorship and Elders , &c. and a just d d Acts 6. 3 , 5. and 15. 22. 1 Tim. 3. 15. distribution of Interest betwixt Elders and People . All spirituall Government is here , and not in any power forreigne or extrinsecal to the Congregation or authoritative : Their children are made Christians first by Infant-baptisme , and after by the Word : and they are baptized by a e e 1 Cor. 7. 14. Acts 2. 39. Rom. 11. 16. foederal or Covenant-holinesse , or Birth-priveledges , as under the Law , They may enjoy all f f Acts 2. 42. 1 Tim. 3. 15. Ordinances in this estate , and some may g g 1 Cor. 14. 22 , 6 , 11 , 4. Prophesie .

Exceptions .

1. THat there is not such a power radically or fundamentally placed in the Church to make Pastors and Elders , &c. because there is , first , no such practice in the Word , but rather of an Apostolicall or a a Matt. 28. 18. & 18. 18 , 19. Acts 14. 21 , 22 23. Ministeriall power , which made or gathered Churches first , not Churches them .

2. The Eldership and Presbitery of Apostles and Elders did b b Acts 15 6. & 14. 23. ● Tim. 4 14. Acts 6. 2 ▪ 6. principally act , and authoritatively act , and not the whole Church or people ; they in a lower and lesse Interest , in a way of choyce or vote and consent .

3. That which is called Ordination , &c. was by the Apostles , and a power established in the c c Acts 14. 23. 1 Tim. 4 14. Presbitery not in the Church , as meer Beleevers .

4. They that were Baptized by an d d Reve 13. 16. Iohn 10. 1 , 5. Mat. 7 14 &c. Antichristian power , are no right Baptized Members of Churches ; and yet so are all of their Churches as were Baptized under Prelacie ; the power of the dispenser being Antichristian and the subject or e e Matt. ●8 18 , 19. & 3. 6. 9 Acts 8. 37 Infant no visible Beleever for that Ordinance .

5. Their Church consists not all of visible Saints or Beleevers , according to their own f f 1 Cor. 1. 2. 1 et , 2 : 5 &c. Iohn 3. ● . Principle : for their children being baptized , and in that condition , are no actuall visible Saints ; all their Church are not living stones , nor visibly holy . And it may be more cleerly proved that meer civill and morall men are rather to be admitted of their Church-society then such as children are , who are but meerly naturally visible ; neither spiritually , civilly , nor morally visible .

6. That of foederal holynesse in * * 1 Co. 7. 14. 1 Cor. 7. 14. is only to satisfie a scruple ; that if Vnbeleeving made wife or husband unholy , it made children unholy too , and so both or none , must be put away .

7. There is no carnall seed now to be sealed , Christ being come in the flesh ; which g g Gal. 3. 16. Rom. 4. 16. Iohn 3. 6. flesh before , had a Seale of Circumcision ; but there is no such h h Matth. 3. 9. externall priviledge now , by any such right .

8. All Consequences drawn from Circumcision , are of no more force then from the i i 1 Cor. 10. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. cloud and the k k 1 Cor. 10. ● , 2 , 3 , 4. 1 Pet. 3. 21. Sea , and the rocke , and Noah's Arke , and other typicall and figurative places in the Word , nor can any legall or probable Scriptures make any Law or Rule for any such Gospell-administration , which is not directly and in l l Iohn 15. 14. Acts 3. 2● . Scripture-words to be found .

9. Childrens Baptisme in the Church is a way never to have a Church of such m m Mat. 3. 5 , 6. Acts 2. 41. and 8. 12. & 10. 48. Ephes. 5. 26. Baptized Beleevers as in the Apostles times .

10. Baptisme being a n n Rom 4. 11. 1 Cor. 14. 22. visible signe , cannot rationally be administred upon one that cannot see nor discern what is done , to whom the water can be no o o Acts 22. 16. signe , but they are only told of it when they come to age : and how can it hold proportion with Circumcision , when as that was a p p Rom. 4. 11. Gen. 17 11. mark remaining in the flesh when they came to age to signifie to them ? But water is like a flash of q q Mat 24. 27. lightning which must be taken by the Beleever in that quick and r r Iames 1. 23. vanishing act , or else it hath no s s Rom 6. 3 , 4. Acts 22. 16. sensible efficacy to which it was instituted ; nor doth the Beleever thus any other way enjoy it but by way of History , or a thing past and done , which he never saw . Baptisme is as a flash of lightning , ( as it is well observed by one ; ) Circumcision was as a fixed Star ; so much difference in these two Rites .

11. Institution of Baptisme is to t t Acts 2 38 Rom 6. 3. 4. Gal. 3. 27 Col. 2. 12. Mat. 28. 18 , 19. Heb 6 ● . Mark 16. 15 , 16. duty as well as grace , which children cannot perform , and so answer the signe .

12. Institution of Baptisme is doctrinall in the very act of it , as is acknowledged by all the present Baptism , Matth. 28. Baptizing them in the Name of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost &c. Now this implies a capable and teachable subject .

13. Their Churches are not distinct from other Societies Antichristian , because there is no visible gifts by which their Churches are u u Ephes. 4. 11 , 12. visibly qualified from any other Societies , and according to the promises of gifts in Ephes. 4. 11. nor no such Church-gifts as in 1 Cor. 12. &c. where there was the w w 1 Cor. 12 ▪ 8 , 9 , 10 Acts 2. 38. and 2. 34 gifts of the Spirit powerfully and visibly spiritualizing that body , and making it to excell all other bodies civill or Antichristian .

And that Prophesie was a more x x 1 Cor. 12. 10 , 29. & 14 29. extraordinary gift , then is now any where in the Churches .

Anabatisme , So called ; What it is , and what they hold .

THe Church of Christ are a Company of a a Heb. 12 22. Acts 10. 48 & 2. 4● . & 16. 32 , 33. baptized Beleevers ; and whatsoever b b Matth. 10. 1. compard with Matth. 8. 18. Iohn 4. 1. Iohn 8. 31. Isai . 1. 16 Act 9 10. and 1. 15. Disciple can teach the Word , or make out Christ , may baptize or administer other Ordinances .

That the Church or Body , though but of two or three , yet may enjoy the Word and Ordinances , by way of an c c 1 Cor. 12. 5. Administrator , or one deputed to administer , though no Pastor .

That none are to be baptized but d d Acts 2. 38. & 10. 4● . Math. 28. 18. Marke 1● . 16. Acts 8 37. Beleevers .

That those commonly called Church-Officers , as Pastors , &c. are such as the Church or Body may be e e Acts 1. ●5 & 2 42. without .

That none are to be called Brethren but baptized Beleevers .

All administrations of Ordinances were given to the Apostles as f f Matth. 1● . 1. compared with 28 18. Isai . 8. 16. Acts 9 10. Disciples ; not so under the notion of Church-power as is pretended .

That none ought to communicate in the Ordinances of Christ till first g g Acts 2. 41 , 42. and 16. 31. baptized .

Exceptions against the grounds of the new Baptism .

1. THat those places commonly taken for the Commission for Christs Baptisin , as Mat. 28. 18. Mar. 16. and where they that now baptize ground their Commission and practice , hath no such thing in it ; For the Baptism there is a Baptism in the Name of the three Persons , of Father , Son , and Holy Ghost ; and not the Baptism of Jesus Christ alone , which the Apostles only baptized in by water , as in a a Acts 2. 38. & 10. 48 and 19. 5. and 8. 1● . Rom. 6. 3. Act. 2. 28. Act. 10. 48. Act. 19. 5. Act. 8. 16. Rom. 6. 3. where it is still said , Baptize in the Name of the Lord Jesus , or of Jesus Christ ; and a Name of any more Persons is not the least mentioned : So as to baptize as they commonly baptize in the Name of Father , Son , and Holy Ghost ; for Jesus Christs baptism , is contrary to the full b b Acts 2. 38. & 10. 48. & 19. 5. and 8. 16. practice of all that baptized by water , as they do , as in Act. 2. 38. Act. 10. 48. Act. 19. 5. Act. 8. 16. &c. and a confounding Scriptures together , viz. severall institutions and practices .

2. That baptizing , in Matth. 28. 18. cannot properly , nor in the word , and letter , be understood of baptizing by water , because there is no more mentioned in the letter , or Scripture , then meerly the word baptizing ; and to expound it as they do , by a baptizing by water , is to put in a c c Acts 3. 22. Iohn ●5 . 14. Matth. 15. 9. Revel. 22. ●9 . consequence and interpretation of their own for Scripture ; which way of consequences they condemn in all others , Presbyterials , &c. as Will-worship and traditions of men , and justly too : Now there being no water , nor any circumstance in the Text to make out any sense of water , as in other places , it is an usurpation vpon the Spirit and the Word , to put such a sense so infallibly and peremptorily upon the Word , which Jesus Christ himself uses in other d d Matt. 20. 22 , 23. and 3. 11. 1 Cor. 12. 13. and 10. 2. significations then that of water , as in Matth. 20. 22 , 23. Matth. 3. 11. 1. Cor. 12. 13. 1 Cor. 10. 2. all these places are of Baptism and baptizing ; yet not one of them of baptizing by water , but of Metaphorical and figurative Baptism by his sufferings , by the Holy Ghost , by the Spirit , by the cloud and Sea .

3. That Matth. 28. 18. Mar. 16 &c. are rather and far more probably to be expounded of the Spirits Baptisme , or the e e Ioel 2. ●8 . Isa. 44. ● . with Matth. ● . 11. Act. 1. 5. Iohn 1. 33. Baptism of the Holy Ghost , because it seems to be prophesied on by Joel 2. 28. Isai . 44. 3. where the Holy Ghosts Baptism is promised to come by Christ ; and in Matth. 3. 11. Act. 1. 5. Joh. 1. 33. prophesied on to come by John , and Christ himself to his Disciples , and was fulfilled in Christs Institution , and power which he gave , in Matth. 28. 18. by baptizing with the Holy Ghost , which the Apostles did accordingly practice , and by their Ministery was given , as in f f Acts 8. 17 , 18 and 10. 44. and 11. 15. Act. 8. 17 , and Mark. 16. 16 , 17. compared with Matth. 28. 18. doth shew that the Baptism in Matth. 28. 18. is a Baptism of gifts , as Mark. 16. 15 , 16 , 17.

4. That the Baptism of Jesus Christ by water , was only in the Name of Jesus Christ , as appears in all the places where such a g g Acts 2. 38. & 10. 48. & 19. 5. and 8 16. Rom. 6 3. Baptism was practised , as in Act. 2. 38. Act. 10. 48. Act. 19 5. Act. 8. 16. Rom. 6. 3. all which is a Baptism only in the Name of Jesus Christ , of the Person of the Son , not of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , as they now practise , and which was never practised as appeares in all the Apostles and Disciples practise .

5. That the forme by which they baptize , viz. I baptize thee in the Name of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , is a h h Matth. 9. 15. Revel 22 ▪ 19. Iohn 15. 14. forme of mans devising a tradition of man , a meer consequence drawn from supposition and probability , and not a forme left by i i Acts 3. 2● ▪ ●● Christ , to say over them at the dipping them in the water : If Christ had said , When you baptize them , say this over them , I baptize in the Name of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost ; and unlesse Jesus Christ had left this forme thus made up to their hands , they practise a thing made up by themselves , and drawn or forced out of Jesus Christs words in Matth. 28. 18.

6. That to preach in the Name of Jesus Christ , or to do things in the Name of Jesus Christ , is not alwaies in that grosse manner as it is taken , viz. naming Jesus Christ , or the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost over them .

But in the k k Mat. 18 20. Mark 13 6. Iohn 14. 13. Acts 9. 15 , 16. Iohn 17. 6 , 11 Acts 9. 14. power , vertue , efficacy , Ministery of Jesus Christ , or the Persons of the God-head of Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , as in these Scriptures Matth. 28. 20. Mark . 13. 6. Joh. 14. 3. Act. 19. 15 , 16. Joh. 17. 6 , 11. Act. 9. 14. Revel. 11. 18 , So here they are at some more losse .

7. That though I deny not but water is a signe and one of the l l Iohn 7 7 ; witnesses that beare record ; and in the Word though not yet cleare , yet neither can Christs Institution of water ; and his own Baptism , in his own Person , be made appeare out of all the New Testamont ; nor can the Apostles practise by water yet be fetched from such a particular Institution , unlesse from Iohn's : And if so , I am sure they are then at as great a Controversie one with another concerning m m Iohn 1 : 26. Mark 1 : 4 : Matth ●● : 30. Acts 10 : ● , 4 : John's ▪ Baptism and Jesus Christ's , making them to be two severall Baptisms .

8. That every common Disciple cannot so baptize as the first Disciples did , because not gifted , or n n Mark 16 17. Acts 2 : 3 , 4 : and 16. 17 : qualified as they were . And there is as much necessity to make out the Truth in the same power and way of evidence to an Antichristian estate , as to a Jewish and Heathenish , and with a Word written as well as preached ; speaking and writing lying both equally open to question and exceptions , without a power o o Iohn 1 25. Matth. 2● . 25. Heb. ● . ● . glorious working in the behalfe and to the reputation of it . Nor is there any one Disciple in all the New Testament preaching and baptizing by way of authority , but he was able to make out the truth of his calling and dispensation , either by miracle or gifts . There are but three Exceptions , and they have no weight in them .

1. p p Acts 8. 6. Ananias was a Disciple .

I answer : Yea , but he restored sight to Saul , and had vision .

2. q q Acts ● . 17. Philip did no miracle to the Eunuch .

I answer : We can neither conclude he did , nor he did not , from the Word ; for it is silent : but he did miracles in Samaria .

3. They that were scattered , went every where preaching .

I answer : Who they were , or how they preached , or what power they manifested , is not laid down in the Word neither for nor against : The Word is silent .

9. That there is not such an Officer as Administrator in the whole Word ; but Apostles , Evangelists , Prophets , Pastors , Teachers , Elders , Rulers , 1 Cor. 12. 29 , 30. Ephes. . ● . 11 Deacons , &c. and therefore Administrator is an unholsome Word .

10. None ought to give Baptism now , because there is none can give the gift of the Holy Ghost with it , to make up that glorious supplement of gifts which it alwaies had ; and they are joyned both in the Word and practice , as in Heb. 6. 1. Doctrine of Baptisms and Laying on of hands : and in their practice they were joyned as in act , Act. 8. 14. 15 , 16. And it will appeare in the Word , that the Apostles did not so reckon of them single , but together , as in Act. 8. 14 , 15 , 16. where it is said they were only Baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus ; but they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost . So as Baptism by water , and by the Holy Ghost , being joyned together both in Institution , Doctrine , and Practice , are not to be separated , nor given in such a time wherein that of the Holy Ghost is not given : For , what God hath joyned together , let no man put Matth. 19. 6. asunder .

11. That it is as unreasonable to take any such Ordinance of Jesus Christ from any that is not distinctly , specially , spiritually , powerfully enabled as the first dispensers , as it is to take the word of any a a Iohn ● . ●5 . 〈◊〉 5 4. Mat. ●● 1. ● . 8. Mark 16. 16. common man charging us in the name of the Parliament , and cannot visibly make out a visible Excellency and Supremacy of power by Ordinance or Commission .

12. That these Churches who enjoy Christs mind , as they think , most fully in the practice o● Ordinances , yet have no greater gifts in their b b 〈◊〉 . ●● . 8. 1 Cor. ● 1. Churches then there are in those called Independent , or Separatist ; Prayer , Teaching , Prophesying being as fully and powerfully performed in the one as the other . And being so , Whether must not the Churches of Christ be distinguished by some more visible glorious power and gifts as at first , by which they may be discerned to excell all other Societies ? c c 1 Cor. 1● ▪

13. That the fulnesse of time is not yet come for Ordinances : For as there were severall d d Acts 1. 4 and 7. ●7 . G●●● 4. Mark ● . ●5 . Revel. ●5 . 8. & 16 and 18 ● . Acts 1 6 , 7. seasons for the givings out of Truth before , so now .

Seeking , or , Seekers , So called ; What their Way is , and what they hold .

THat there is no Church nor Ordinances yet . That if they did not end with the Primitive or Apostles times , yet they are to begin as in the Primitive times , with a a Matth. 10. 1 Mark 16. 16. 1 Cor. 12. gifts and miracles ; and that there is as much reason for the like gifts to make out the Truth of any of the Gospell now to an Antichristian estate , as formerly to a Jewish or Heathenish . That such a Belever as can dispence Ordinances , must be qualified as the Beleevers in Mark . 16. and as the former b b Acts 8 ▪ 6. and 9. 17. Disciples were . That there is a time and c c Revel. 15. 8. and 18. 1. fulnesse for the Spirit , and for the latter pure spirituall dispensations , as there was formerly for the first dispensations : And whether this shall be while the Angels are but powring out their Vials or not , or when Babilon is fallen . And whether there is not as much need for d d Acts 2 4. Mark 16. 17. Acts 19. 6. 1 Cor. 14. 22 , 39. new Tongues to reveale the pure Origionall to us , it being conveyed with corruptions and additionals in Translations ; by which , Truth may be more purely discovered , and the waters of Life that now run muddily , may flow more cleare and Crystal-like from the Throne e e Revel. 22. 1. of God .

The Exceptions .

1. THat Jesus Christ did promise to be ever with his a a Mat. 28. 2● and 16. 18. Church , and therefore cannot be reasonably presumed to leave them without b b Iohn 14. 16 Church and Ordinances .

2. That if c c Rev 2● . 18 , 19. Scriptures were not so pure and cleere to us , as the Word of Life were not sufficiently there ; God were lesse d d Heb 7 ▪ 22. gracious to us now under Grace , and Christ come in the flesh , then before to the Jews , who gave them a Book of the Law , which remained with them to the coming of the Messiah .

3. That such gifts and miracles were rather for bringing the Word into the world , and for glorifying Christs first coming in the flesh , then for e e Iohn 20 29 ▪ 30 , 31. after .

4. That if we must have miracles to make us beleeve , and not beleeve any truth till then ; we must have for every Truth , as well as for one or two , a miracle to give it evidence : and so there must be a continuall and new miracle working for every new beleeving .

5. If there must be miracles for beleeving , Truth is not of that excellent nature that it seems : for if it be not able to make it selfe evident , and cast a native and spirituall ᶠ Ephes. 5 : 13 : shine or brightnesse upon that soule it comes into , it is but weake , dark , and insufficient .

6. If Truth be not discernable in it self by its own glorious lightsome nature , by beames from it self ; it is of a worse condition then many things below , as the Sun , and Stars , and Candles &c. which bring that light in their own nature and dispensation , by which they are discerned .

7. If every Truth be a became of g g Iohn 8 : 12 : and 9 : 5 : Christ the truth , then every beame hath h h Revel. 22 : 5 : light in it selfe , because it streams from the fountaine of light , and so is discernable .

8. That it is more glorious to take evidences from the Spirit , then from any thing without ; which can at the farthest of it self but convince the outward man .

9. That all shall now in the last times be in a secret , invisible , inward , spirituall glory , no more in grosse , carnall , visible evidences and materiall beams , as gifts & miracles . And this is to know Christ no more after the flesh .

10. No miracles can in their own nature make one beleeve , without a spirituall conviction from the Spirit of Christ going along with it ; so as we see when miracles were wrought , some beleeved , and some beleeved not : So as then there is no such reason for miracles as pretended , because that conviction which comes from the Spirit through the work of a miracle , may come by any other instrumentall or originall way . Or , it is a more glorious operation , by how much more single , or by way of immediate revelation it works .

11. To beleeve meerly by the i i Iohn 20 : 19 , 30 , 31 : Spirit , is far more glorious then by any other outward means , though never so outwardly glorious : by how much the Spirit is more excellent then any thing else , by so much more divine and spirituall are the impressions of it .

12. That when miracles are wrought , yet a pretender may work a miracle for the contrary ; like the Sorcerers of Egypt against Moses : and Antichrist is spoken on rather to come k k Matt. 2 : 24 : with signes and wonders of the two , then Christ . So as here shall be a losse to any that think to beleeve meerly by miracle . So as the Spirit is that which must make us beleeve beyond all the power of miracle , which can give out its power but upon the sense at farthest , being meerly outward and visible .

13. That there is no such power for Ordinances as is pretended ; but Beleevers , as l l Matth. 10 : 1 , compard with Matth 28 : 18 : Iohn 8 : 31 : Isai . 8 : 6 : Acts 9 ▪ 10 : Disciples , may administer ; and so did the Apostles and Beleevers formerly , as they were Disciples .

14. That the Scriptures of the Gospell , or New Testament , are of such a m m 2 Cor ● 6 , 8 , 9 : Rom: 1 : 16 : 2 ▪ Tim: 3 : 6 , 17 : Heb: 4 : 12 : ● Pet. 1 : 19 : divine and even Spirituall glory in the Letter , as no other word : There is a power to discover the reason and secrets of the heart , which the reason and heart of man witnesses unto : There is a power to convince , and accase , and terrifie , and comfort , clearly , and undeniably , and experementally known .

15. These Scriptures we have , as they are , do make a Discovery of such a way of Religion as reason never yet in any age attained to : The men of purest reason , as your old Philosophers , never attained further then the knowledge of something infinite which they did not know , and a Religion of humane or morall righteousnesse and purity , and some sacrifices of atonement , &c. And there is not any Religion in the world , Jewish or Turkish , but they are made up of carnall principles , and are founded upon reason and nature ; but this Gospell Religion hath opened a new way of righteousnesse in one that is both God and Man in a most rationall though infinite way of salvation , and a way of Worship crosse to all methods and wates of reason , and the world , opening new waies by a new Spirit , purifying naturall reason into more divine and glorious notions then ever it yet attained , bringing in a way of beleeving , and placing a Religion upon a spirituall perswasion called Faith , which is more proportionable to an infinite God , and an infinite way and depth of salvation , then reason ever invented , viz. for the soule to beleeve upon one , even Jesus Christ , in whom God hath laid up all love and fulnesse ; and so for man to become one with him who is God and Man : and there cannot be a more rationall way for man to become one with God , then by one who is both God and Man .

16. That though there be not such glorious powrings out of Spirit , and such gifts as Beleevers both may and shall have ; yet all Beleevers ought to practice so far of the outward Ordinance as is clearly revealed they may . Phil: 13 : 16 :

17. That the Scriptures or Gospell of the New Testament being as many hundred years old as from the Apostles , even in that Originall we have them , no very materiall differences in Copies , as it seems ; and though they have passed through the great Apostacy , yet they have not had the power to corrupt them materially in their Originall , to advantage their heresies and corruptions ; which very constant preservation of Truth in the midst of the very Enemies of Truth , is both a constant and standing miracle of it selfe ; and so we need not stay for a Ministery with miracle , being we have a Word with miracle , which in its matter , subject , power , speaking of God , of his Son , God and Man , of his Spirit the Actor in man from both , by waies of outward Ordinances , of the depths , windings , and workings of reason , &c. is of as much efficacy to perswade as any thing else we can have ; and the way of the pure Spirit is a more glorious way of operation then any other of a visible sensuall nature : And God may be more glorified by quickning and spiritualizing a word , and using the spiritually glorious Ministery of that , then of man : and they are far too low who look for their originall teaching from man , and not from the Word and Spirit .

CONCLUSION .

I Have drawne out this map of each opinion , that your eye may travell over that in an houre , which otherwise you might be a yeare in going over . Thus each are discovered in a narrow yet full Discovery ; and I thinke all that are divinely rationall , will see no such cause to thinke that each hath attained so ● Cor. 8. 2. far , that either they should presume in their degree , or look down from the pinacle of an infallibilitie upon each other . I have set the strength and weaknes of each opinion before it self , that on the one side as it may glory , so on the other side it may fear and be humble . All I wish now , is , that we be all so far one , at least in infirmity , and this Common weaknesse , as may be a ground of Common embodying and associating against the Common Enemy , or Grand Antichrist ; as in States , when they are at lowest , have least factions ; and when weakest , are most peaceable with one another .

The Gospell , or New Testament of JESUS CHRIST , proved undeniably to be the very Word of God , without Miracles , to assure us of the particular duties in it .

Because there are some men now of more reason then sound belief , I cannot but in a spirituall rationally way beare witnesse to our salvation in the written Word .

1. IF there were not a Word or Will of God revealed in Lawes and Ordinances written , God were worse provided then the Lawgivers of Nations and Kingdomes , and the World were left to their owne wils ; which is esteemed ridiculous in the eyes of all the Nations of the world in their very politick condition .

2. The Laws and Ordinances contained in the Word , or New Testament , beare only the Image of a God , in their holinesse , purity , righteousnesse , glory , infinitenesse , eternity , immortality , which are all , with many more things of like excellency , there , which are as the beams of light to the Sun , or so many things of God , revealing God .

3. The Word is so tempered into a middle nature betwixt God and man , as no Word can be more revealing the most glorious , spirituall , infinite things from a God , in a meane , literall , figurative , comparative , significative way to man .

4. To have a standing Word as the Gospell is , is more for the glory and authority of a God then any ministry of man , though with miracles and signs ; because such a Word , where none can joyn themselves as Authors or Parties , as in other wayes of dispensation by men , men may joyne themselves , doth undoubtedly hold forth most of God and of divine Authority ; and thus to maintaine or preserve a Law or Word in the world , is not so much with God as for King and Princes to maintaine Statutes and Lawes in their Kingdomes .

5. A Word as the New Testament is , may be as well a way and dispensation to an infinite God to make out himself by , as any other , either of dreame or vision , or Revelation , or Oracle , all being but wayes of a naturall straine and condition , no more then the Word .

6. The very manner of dispensation or writing , is such as hath the authority , power , wisedome , counsels of a God , the whole businesse of it being a work discovered to be begun by God , and amongst men , to let forth the glory of God , the mercy , love , and wisdome , of God , and the way by the Son of God , and Spirit of God , and all to be glorified with God ; and thus treating only of things divine , and a work divine , in a way divine .

7. We must either give up our selves to this Word wholly , or not at all ; and then let the world and experience judge what kind of Religion reason at large unbounded , or unenlightened , will bring forth , by the former paterns of Heathenish and Gentilish Religion .

8. Why should it not be thought the most clean and direct way for God , to manifest himself to man by Word , Gospell , and Epistle ; and so by an infinite and invisible power and hand commend and conveigh it from age to age , from generation to generation , as well as for men to make out their art , reason , knowledge , experience into books and words written , to their owne and other generations ?

9. This Gospell of Iesus Christ places Religion upon a more glorious transcendent way , to sute with an infinite God , then ever any device of man , or reason could invent , viz. upon faith , upon a beleeving or spirituall perswasion wrought by the same God , by which men are carried out into depths of infinitenesse and glory , no way measurable nor discernable but by this way of beleeving ; and there could never have been an engine contrived which could have gone from man into God but this of faith by God himself ; nor more for the advantage of the glory of a God , taking all from the creature , employing it wholly upon a God .

10. There is more reason in this Gospell , or New Testament , in the way of Religion which it holds forth by Iesus Christ , then ever could be thought on by the reason of man ; as for instance , Each mans internall conscience hath a light or law in it , which condemnes or accuseth for murther , &c. Now if there be accusations , against whom is the offence committed but against somthing infinite ? and what way is there more divinely rationall to apply to the justice of such an infinite , being on God offended , but by one who is both man and God , even Iesus Christ ? So as the mystery of salvation is such as even reason it self cannot contradict or gainsay , though it cannot comprehend to leave the world inexcusable in their unbeliefe , because it commands them to beleeve in one whom in reason they cannot deny to be a way proportionable betwixt God and themselve ▪ for salvation .

11. It carries things in such a rare way of mercy , of justice , of love , of piety ; and as it is a salvation from God to man , so it is a salvation managed by one who is God and Man ; and every thing belonging to it , is accordingly mixed or tempered , of Word and Spirit , of power divine , and outward dispensation , or ordinance ; and all this for man who is of a mixed nature of flesh and spirit : Thus things are carried in a way of proportion and sutablenesse , so full , so sutable , and compleat , and serviceable , as the invention of men could never devise .

12. It discovers reason to it self in all its workings and wayes , in its purity and corruption , in its vertues and vices , conscience bearing witnesse to the Laws and Commandements of it ; it purifies and spiritualizeth reason , and brings it into such a way of communion with God , as the souls that reade it , and are exercised in it , seem to be new-borne , to receive in another nature , an immortall and incorruptible seed .

13. It manages all the designe of salvation , contrary to nature and the world , upon contrary principles , dispensations and hands , by a Person poore , humble , and crucified for the good , by Ministers and Dispensers , meane and contemptible Fisher-men , Tradesmen , &c. yet inspired by graces contrary ; as selfe-deniall , humility , love to enemies ; by conditions contrary ; as weaknesse , affliction , poverty , suffering , dying , carrying a treasure , a comfort , a riches , a life , a glory , under all these .

14. It is accompanied by continued or standing miracles , though miracles of a more spirituall nature , as discovery of the counsels and hearts of men , as conversion from sin , mortification of sin , changing natures from evill to good , planting in new dispositions , inclinations , affections into the soul . Now , if such charges and conversions were in materiall or sensible things , as from water to bloud , from water to wine , how would it astonish ? Which in spirituals in more wonderfull , though only lesse discernable , and not to be so sensibly perceived , preserved by its very enemies , the Roman cruelty of Emperours , and Antichristian Traditions .

15. It refers the discovery of all Truth in it self to the Spirit of God , which no word but the Word of God would do , and will not take in men into glory with it self which miracles do , which are done by the hand and ministry of man ; and the Spirit in this way must needs be a more glorious Interpreter of the Will of God , then the meer ministery by man and miracles can be ▪ by how much it is of a more spirituall nature ; and it is more excellent to seek things in the Spirit , then in any outward dispensation , which as it comes more immediately from God , so it comes in more immediately upon men ; and to take in Truth by sense and sight , or miracle , is rather to know Christ after the flesh .

16. Yet after all , the Word it self is the best way to bring in evidence and discovery in its 〈◊〉 half to the souls of those that will come under the power , ●pe●at●on , and experiments of it , under the enlightening , convictions , impressions of it , in the reading , hearing , and meditating of it . These things are Iohn 20. written that ye may beleeve : And they that are thus exercised , are above all miracle , and are perswaded enough by it self without the help of an outward work .

17. To these I adde the testimonies of the most ancient in witnesse of it . De divinis nomin. c. 2.

Dionysius Areopagita , thought to live in the times of the Apostles , and Iren l. 3. c. 1. not daring to take his Divinity any where , but from these Scriptures .

Irenaeus , who was in the yeare 180 , affirming the fulnesse of these Gospell-Scriptures , Tertul. lib. contra Hermogen . and accounted them the Pillar of Truth .

So Tertullian , who lived 1400 years since ▪ doth accordingly witnesse to their perfection .

Origen , Athanasius , Chrysostome , Constantine the Great , in the first Nicene-Councell , with thousands others all along to our own age .

18. The Iewes , whose very Testament and condition answers to every Prophesie and Gospel-Scripture .

19. The many of those most eminently ancient , learned , and godly , who have shed their bloud in testimony of it .

20. The power of God going along with it .

21. The Confessions of the most learned in that , confesse , that the Originall Copies are not corrupted , but continued pure .

One Argument from the Nationall Covenant , for Liberty of Conscience , yet with all subordinate and just obedience to the State .

ART. I.

THe first Branch of the Covenant is ,

That we shall sincerely , really , and constantly , &c. endeavour , &c. the Reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England , &c. in Doctrine , Worship , Discipline , and Government , according to the Word of God , &c.

ART. II.

The second Branch of the Covenant ,

That we shall in like manner without respect of persons , endeavour the extirpation of Popery , &c. Superstition , Heresie , Schism , &c. and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound Doctrine , &c.

Now from these I argue :

1. Each one is personally and individually bound by the Covenant , and in his owne proper conscience is obliged to endeavour a Reformation according to the Word of God , and so far to the example of the best Reformed Churches as they are agreeable to that Word ; I hope no further : Now who shall be the Iudge and Interpreter of this Word of God , to each mans conscience in the things of God , but he who is Lord of the conscience , in things immediately divine and spirituall ? The consciences of men are under a spirituall and immediate Interpreter of the Word , even the Spirit of the Lord , in all things of spirituall cognizance , as every Scripture-truth , or Truth in the Word is : and this is not only strengthened and cleer from the Word , but from a testimony which some when they read , may know better then many others .

By the Clause , According to the Word of God , we understand , so far as we doe or shall in our consciences conceive the same to be according to the Word of God .

Now each man standing thus ingaged in his owne particular , and in his own proper conscience by a Covenant recommended and imposed , each is bound to bring forth the evidence of their consciences in particular , concerning this to which they are covenanted : So as I , or you , being covenanted against Popery , Heresie , and according to the Word of God , you and I stand bound by our own private consciences to reveale to the State , who hath recommended such a Covenant unto us , what our consciences interpret according to this Word , against Popery or Heresie , unlesse there could be one universall , or publike infallible Interpreter of the Word of God and Truth , who might determine concerning Heresie , and the Word of God , and whose determinations is as in the formerly inspired Apostolical teachers , we may rest .

So being thus ingaged by Covenant , we are at the same time , by one and the same Act , bound to liberty of conscience , in these particulars of the things of God : And if there should be any persecution for the pious , modest , and peaceable liberty , so taken and practised , whether would it not clearly and undeniably follow , that our consciences are not under the Lord Iesus , and his Spirit immediatly in the things of God , but under the interpretations of men .

And surely that one Clause ▪ according to the Word of God , is most providentially inserted ; for if we be so closely covenanted to the Word of God , how tender ought we to be ? lest in this dark season of our discerning , we oppose somthing of the Word , and so in ignorance , persecute what we covenant to maintaine . I wish our Assembly would presse this equally with the Covenant in their Sermons .

Object . But must every one be the Interpreter of the Covenant ?

Answ. Nay , not every one , in every thing : The Magistracy in all things of a civill cognizance , and in all spirituall things which go out from their meer spirituall condition into a morall offence ; as injustice or evill transgression into tumult or disturbance of publike or private peace , actually and expressely , not interpretatively ; for so the Nations interpreted the Iewes as troublers of the State ; and the Iewes , Christ and his Disciples , as movers of sedition : The Papists and Prelats interpreted the Nonconformists or repro●ched Puritans , as factious and tumultuous : So as in all things of Morall , Civill , or Secular cognizance , which the Magistrate hath clear rule for to walke by , He ought to interpret and proceed by ; partly , because he is the Legislator , and so is the best Interpreter , and can best resolve us in things of Law and publike liberty ; and in morals , his duty lies out more cleerly ; but in meerly divine and spirituall interpretations of Truth and Gospell-mystery , the Lord Jesus and the Spirit of Jesus Christ are both the Legislators , or Law givers , and Interpreters to the conscience .

Obj. But shall there be no power to compell consciences into Uniformity ?

Answ. I shall give light to this by propounding a Case . Suppose the severall godly parties , or beleevers , were equally principled for persecution or non-toleration , and were equally numbred , and were equally strengthened by parties of Magistracie on their side , what would come forth according to such principles ? I sigh to consider : There would be edge against edge , authority against authority , power against power , and all the State or Kingdome involved into bloud and confusion : So as we must consider things according to their principles , not according to their temporary or occasionall advantages .

Object . But you give not enough to the Magistrate ?

Answ. Yea , more then any . He that gives him that which God hath given him , gives more then any that pretend to give him the most .

The pretenders that bid for the Magistrate at this time , are ,

1. They that put him as an help and government in the Church , as some , 1 Cor. 2. 28. viz. they of the Erastian way .

2. They that make use on him but as an help to the Church extrinsecally , and by way of forraigne assistance , as others , viz. they of the Presbyteriall way .

3. They that give him power over body , goods , over all morall and civill behaviours of men , Professors and Beleevers , of what sort soever , of what opinion soever , as I and the rest of our Brethren do , praying with all manner of supplication , that under them we may lead a peaceable , godly , and quiet life .

Obj. But why dare you not ingage civill Magistracy in Religion over consciences , as some others do ?

Answ. Yea , in all things morally good and evill , God hath ingaged them ▪ and hath set the Law and Light of nature and conscience in all people to side with them , condemning and excusing what they and their Law doth condemne and excuse , and thus to beare witnesse with their dominion and power .

But in things of pure Gospel-mystery and Evangelically good or evill , I dare not ingage them ( whatever others doe ) over consciences , because I give more to their just power , and because I dare not draw them into such principles , which hath broken more Magistracy , then all the other plots and devices of men .

For things of Worship which are laid up in the pure simple mystery in the Light of the Spirit , not of nature , as all meer Gospell-mystery is , to ingage the Magistrates Sword into these , is rather a way to dash them against every mans conscience , and so in time to lay in a fatall power , or a fatall suffering .

We know that power which makes Kingdoms soundest in their ▪ Dominion , and most lasting , is the truest and wholsomest ; and surely that which ingages them lest into that part of the soule , the conscience which can lest endure to be oppressed , is the safest and most peaceable .

To my Reverend learned Freind M. LEY , One of the Assembly of Divines , at Westminster , Author of a Book called The Resolution of the New Quere , published by Master Saltmarsh . SIR ,

I Shall give you a publike account according to your publike charge in your leafe concerning me , That I intended to make you my Censor for some Papers which I did not publish . Page 1.

Sir , those Papers were an Answer to Master Fullers last Book ; and the Question about Reformation betwixt him and me , being so out of all Question , as Master Herle serveth , and ●e as I heard , being dead , made me rather put up my Arrows into their Quiver , then shoot them at such a mark .

For my contending with you in this , I hope it is but as that of Paul and Barnabas , and Paul and Peter , a contention of Brethren , not of Enemies ; for I thinke you would oppose Truth no more then my selfe ; but we both may be said to contend rather for the Truth then against it , and rather with one anothers reason , then with Truth .

In this Controversie you have much advantage of learning , and experience ; but there is a Spirit and the inspiration of the Almighty , which enlightens the young man and the old ; Elihu as well as Job or his Friends .

Your other advantages are , the Magistrate whom you have more on your side ; we only are more on the Magistrates side , then they are on ours ; yet we cannot but say , and blesse the Lord for them , they are so far on ours , as we lead a peaceable and quiet life under them .

Your other advantage , is an Assembly of learned Divines , yet not so wholy yours ; the way of Truth we stand for , hath a Party there ; and I hope when the vaile of prejudice is taken away , and Truth is brought home to their soules in its nakednesse , power , and evidence , by a power more spirituall then is yet given out from Heaven , out Party there will be greater : I willingly presume so much of them .

I have laboured that a Spirit of love and meeknesse might run through all my Reply unto you , though in my travelling over your Paper , I have met with some things in the way too sharp , and your way hath more Briars and Thorns in it then you promised in your first leafe : I had much ado not to be provoked , by how much your promise had removed all offence on your part from my expectation : If you find any passions in my Book , charge them on my unregenerate part ; for I find that when I would do good , evill is present with me .

You see my labours , deducting the time of their Printing , are of about two weeks growth , younger by some sixe weeks ( if I mistake not ) then yours . I hope where you could not expect much , you will not look for more then I here return you in this time .

Sir , I salute you in the Lord , and with all due respects to your self , your age , your learning , I begin my Discourse with you ; and the Lord let me see the failings on my part , while I seek to discover those on yours , that I may take out the beame from my own eye , as well as the more from yours .

You desired me in your Book to enter upon away of Peace ; and I have accordingly presented my Modell , to be perfected and refined by any that will set upon the work : I do not love in any thing I write , to fume out meerly in Controversie ; but in something if it may be to edification . I rest ,

Your Friend in the Lord , JOHN SALTMARSH .

THE SMOKE IN THE TEMPLE : Wherein , is the Vindication of the new QUERE , From Master Ley's RESOLUTION .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 2 , & 3.

I Put a Question , Whether he were an Independent or no ? He told me , He was not ; but that he had a latitude of charity for them of that way . Since that , I had a glimpse more of his inclination by his Dawning of Light : but a full discovery of his mind in his Book , The Opening of M. Pry●●s Vindication . I will not entertaine him as an enemy . To give him his due , in all that I have seen set forth in his name , I find him rather opinionative then passionate .

Reply .

Your Question was accordingly put by you , and accordingly answered by me . And for my appearing for Truth not all at once in my Treatises , you may see I was not hasty to beleeve , nor to write in the behalfe of a Truth before I saw it , nor to plunge my selfe into any Way till I had examined it . The Apostles waited for the full revelation of all Truth by the Spirits comming . The Bereans searched daily to see whether the things were Acts 1 & 17. 1 Iohn 4. 1. 1 Thes 5. 21. so , or no. Apollos preached not Christ clearly till he was instructed in the way of God more perfectly . We are bidden to try the spirits , and prove all things : So as I appeared in those degrees but by Scripture warrant . And I could name to you examples of another sort ; Augustine , Luther , both finding truth but in degrees ; and the latter sweetly acknowledging how he was enlightened by beam after beam . Angels , who lie more naked towards God , and take in the things they know , by way of Vision ; yet see not any of that will of God which gives Laws to them , but as he reveales : Much lesse such as we who dwell in houses of clay , and whose foundations are in the dust , and who come by the sight of things discoursively , and by spirituall reasoning ; God giving in the revelation of his Truths , in a naturall , yet supernaturall way .

But for that Notion of Independency you speake on , I dare not owne it , because I account my selfe both under a spirituall and civill Supremacy ; under Jesus Christ and the Magistrate severally , and exempt from neither . We are not of those that despise Governments , and speak evill of Dignities ; nor are we under any such singular Notion that I know on , to be called Independents , &c. We all hold of the Body of Christ , and of the Communion of Saints below ; and we hold one upon another , but not one over another . We dare not be Classicall , Provinciall , Nationall ; these are no formes of wholsome words to which we are commanded , nor know we any such power ; but that of Brethren , and Ministery , and fellowship . We dare not take out a Copy either from the States of the world , or the State of Israel , to obey or rule by under the Gospell . And if you can the Churches or Christ Independent for this , we must suffer till the Lord bring forth our righteousnesse as the noon-day . Yet this you and we both know , that when Truth would not embody or mingle at any time with corruptions , it had presently the name of Sect , Schisme , Faction ( all which are implyed in the name Independency ) put upon it . Thus were the Reformed Nations of England , Germany , France , &c. scandalized by Popish Writers , and the old Nonconformists by the Prelaticall ; the Jews formerly by the Nations , & the Christians by the Jews . We have heard enough of Independency and Presbytery , such notes of distinction are now become names of reproach : and so I lay them downe .

And whereas you say , you will not entertaine me as an enemy ; It is more likely then in the end , both you and I may prove a better friend to the Truth . It is possible many in this Age might have seen more , had they not east so much dust in one anothers eyes by their strivings : It were well such a Gospell spirit would walke more abroad , and that spirit which casts men sometimes into the fire , and sometimes into the water , were not so stirring . Well , since you will be no enemy to me , I shall not , I hope , contend with you , though I dare not but contend earnestly for the Truth . And the Truth it self which I write for , may ( I hope ) at length find you no more an enemy to it then you are to me . I cannot ●ut wish , one of your experience and abilities , like Pant , to preach for that Truth which before he destrayed . Our hearts desire and prayer should be for any of Israel .

And for that you say of me in your Observation , that I am rather opini●native then passionate , I cannot take it so ill from you that will needs be no enemy to me : I interpret any thing from such a one on the better side of it . But I shall allow you your liberty as my self : And if the truth of God may 〈…〉 more abound through my opinion ( as you take it ) unto his glory , I have enough . 〈…〉

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 4 , & 5.

I wonder he , who hath writ a whole Booke of Policie , should be so unpolitick as to think it seasonable , since it tends to retard the establishment of Government , whereto the Parliament is so much ingaged by Declaration ▪ &c. by Solemne League and Covenant , Art. 1. already setting it up in Ordinance for Ordination , &c. Though the liberty of speaking lengthens the Debates , and delayes the Votes , &c. and so much the more , because they are more in number then we , and because their determinations are finall , as ours are not .

Answer .

For some things in my Book of Policy , I praise the Lord I can looke on them as on part of the darknesse I was in : And I can freely joyne with any in censuring any unregenerate part in me , as I esteem much of my carnall reason to be . When I was a childe , I spake as a childe ; neither have I any fruit now ( as the Apostle sayes ) of some of those things . Nor would I have any goe thither for direction , but so far as they find Scripture or sound Reason . I cannot but give a Caution concerning this Booke , because I would have Readers to looke on any thing from me , as Luther speaks of himself , as I receive in light . And me thinks I scarse doe any thing which I could not , with Augustine , when it is done , find something to retract in it : either somthing is too dead , or too darke , or too carnall . Thus you see I willingly help you against my selfe ; and I account it a part of my condition here , not to see all at once .

For the unseasonablenesse of my Quere , you alleadge the Declaration of Parliament , and the Covenant in Art. 1. wherein they are ingaged to endeavour Reformation ; and the Ordinances , &c.

Now , where is my unseasonablenesse ? The Parliament is endeavouring , &c. May I contribute my moneyes , my vote , my paines my informations to the Civill ingagements , and not my notions to the Spirituall ? Are we not to bring in all our disbursements , either Naturall , Civill , or Spirituall , into that publike Treasury ? Though you of the Assembly ▪ cast in of your abundance , may not the poore ones cast in their mite ? Are we not by the same Covenant bound to discover any thing against God and the State , and the glory and peace of both ? And if I find my conscience perswading me such or such a thing is not accordingly , ought I not by all the Obligatious that are upon me , of Gospell , Parliament and Countrey , peaceably and meekly to speak a word ? May we discover any thing to the State we conceive of malignity or danger in Civill things , and not in Spirituals ▪ Is not the Spirituall or soul-liberty ▪ the more glorious liberty of the Subject ? We cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard , saith the Apostle : And ▪ What Acts 4. 20. you heare in the eare , that speake you on the house top , saith Christ . We know who it was that said , Prophesie not here ; for it is the Kings Chappell . And Amos 2. 13. for things of a Spirituall nature , we are allowed almost the fulnesse of time for season : Be instant in season and out of season , saith Paul .

But , What better season could I come in , then such a one , wherein things were but ripening and moving towards establishment ? Where nothing is setled ▪ there can be nothing disturbed . Where nothing is concluded , there can be nothing repelled . Where nothing is established , there can be nothing disordered . But since you put me to a further account , I shall give it . My Spirit was not my own so wholly then , but his ( I hope ) whose motion I obeyed , the Lords . Such breathings of Heaven who dare safely quench ? It is as fire in the bones , saies the Prophet : and like that of Mordecai , If thou altogether hold thy peace at this time , &c.

And whereas you say , that the Parliaments determinations are finall , That holds better for me , who might have spoken to much lesse purpose , had I stayed till all had been done , and the determinations ended , and become finall ; sure it was time then to speak before determinations were final , or never , and by your own account too ; for you are pleased to reckon up the proceedings of State in the businesse of Religion ; which are such , as had I stayed , I had had a worse season ; however , as the Prophet saies , I have delivered my soule : they were , you know , the foolish virgins that came not with their oyle till the doore was shut . Whatever my Oyle or my Lamp was , yet I think it not agreeable to the wisdom of that Parable , to come and knock only when the doore is not open .

Master Ley's Resolution , page 6 , 7 , and 8.

The title of the Quere is baited with Truth and Peace . He a private Divine to put such a Quere both of State and Religion , and to suggest such a suspition of hast , and to tax the Ministers for putting in for a power not consonant to Scriptures and Prudence , &c. His rendring the originall word metaphorically : His artificiall colours , Rhetoricall , &c. And my marshalling his reasons in a right method .

Reply .

I have gathered up into one bundle your pieces of a lighter concernment : I would not stay tything Annise and Cummin , but I hasten to the weightier matters of the Law . A word only to each .

For baiting my Quere with Truth and Peace , you allude to Christ's allegory , that we are fishers of men : and if I have no worse things to bait with then these two , Truth and Peace , none need , I hope , be afraid of the hooke . And for the proof of them both , argument and time will evidence .

For me , a private Divine , to put a Quere of State and Religion . What were John Hus , Wickliff , Luther , Paphnutius , who in their severall ages gave out their testimonies ? They were but single men , compared with Councels and Synods . Not that I would compare with them , who am lesse then the least of all the mercies of God ; yet they were but single , though singular men . And what if a private Divine ? Jesus Christ may bid a private man stand and speake to the people . There is a Law of the Spirit commands to speake as well as the Law of a State ; and though you speak by the later Law , another may speak by the former . And what though a Quere both of Religion and State ? Is not our Covenant mixt accordingly of Religion and State ? Doth not the State it self mix with Religion where Churches are Nationall ? And how can I speake properly but to both , where both are in interest ?

For my suggestion of a suspition of haste ; you know ; words and phrases are not the same to all : one may interpret thus , another thus . I had no thought of Jehu's driving , as you imply , when I wrote . I must lay the supposed crime at your owne doors , for it is none of mine ; nor have I ( nor any ) reason to tax that Honourable Senate , whose Counsels are grave , and serious , and deliberate . Had I lookt for Jehu , I should have lookt to another coast and quarter , where they drive more furiously . Why deale you not more candidly ? Why are you not more faithfull in your interpretation to the Originall ?

For that of my taxing the Ministers for desiring power ; none have reason to speak but the guilty , it concernes not the innocent . It is not strange for some Ministers to affect Government , or rather ruling : we have so much of Prelacie yet left , and working in the Countrey with us ; and if not in the City too I refer you to Master Coleman .

For the word rendred from the Originall metaphorically , I quoted only the Text , to my remembrance , to the Printers hand ; and how he came by the metaphor , I know not ; but I find fault as well as you : However , to make the best of it now ; translations of Scripture are not all Grammaticall , as you know ; nor to the letter , as I could wish them with you .

For Artificiall Colours , or Rhetorioall ; &c. You make me guilty of such vernish as I have not laid on , to my knowledge ; nor have much to lay on , if I would : Truth and Peace , which were my subjects , are faire enough of themselves , without any colour of mine : And I desire not to bring forth either , but in the evidence and demonstration of the spirit ; and if there be any thing of their own beauty there , call it not artificiall , put not suspitions ▪ and jealousies into any , that such things as they see are not so , to make men Scept●call . It is as much injury to Truth and Peace to misreport them , as to counterfeit them .

And for your logicall marshalling my reasons , I thank you , you took more pains with them then I would doe . Notionall order I received them in . Nor dare I be too logicall and notionall in things divine . Systems and formes ▪ of art , have done our Divinity some harm : Such Classes and methods of reason have been found too strait for the more spirituall enlargements of truth . Yet I honour your Learning , though I ▪ thus speake .

Master Ley's Resolution Page 9 , & 10.

His first reason taken from Rules of Faith , Rom. , 4. 3 , 13 , &c. Now he should have planted his reason directly against the imposing a Government , rather then obedience to it ; as thus , &c. Those that set up a Government which they are not fully perswaded on , sin : But , they that now set up Church-Government with power , &c. doe set up a Government whereof they are not fully perswaded on : Therefore in so doing , they sin . The major is true , but the minor not , because of their faithfull learned Counsellors , and Scripture-discussings .

Reply .

Since you will help me to prove you are welcome : You have furnished me with one Argument more : You are a fair enemy , to lend out your own weapon . And now you have made your Argument half for me , I shall make the other half my self . You say ,

What the imposers of Government cannot doe in Faith , is sin : This is your half Argument . But you take it for granted , Our imposers of Government are not such , but such as are fully perswaded , and can set up the Government in faith ; and you prove it thus , from those of their Counsellors so near them , and from their Scripture-discussions .

First , I know not what Counsellors you mean ; but they are too wise a Senate to be carried by any interest but their owne ; and I wish them no other Counsellors then Truth and Peace : nor doe I know that they are so fully perswaded of any such Government . I beleeve some of them are not so fully principled for your way , and then they all are not perswaded so of the Government : nor have you yet been able to make out the evidence of every truth you presented them from cleare Scriptures , saving your Art of deductions , and consequences , and prudence : and if all cannot be perswaded that State-conscience , or Publike conscience , is not so wholly nor fully perswaded : then , as you imply , a State or Publike conscience is like a Particular conscience ; which if it doth not wholly consent , is doubtfull , or weake ; for it is not in Spirituall things as in Civill : Votes of major parts make laws , and they stand good from any such forms of Policie : but I never yet saw that rule in the Gospell for any such proceedings in spirituall things : but that is a Law in Christs Kingdome , not that which is voted so , but that which is so in the truth of it : For else Popery were the best , for it hath most voices and counsels . So as unlesse you can prove the Parliament to be of one minde in it , how can you prove a Parliament so fully perswaded in minde as you imply ? Let them prove a Truth by most voices that please or can ; but I wish the businesse of a State-conscience , in a thing of this nature , were more enquired into then yet it hath been .

But if the Parliament were fully perswaded of the truth of the Government , yet there would be a new question , yea ▪ and is very learnedly discussed by our worthy Brethren , Master Coleman and the Commissioner , how they could be perswaded of the imposing , and power of setling . For my part , if there must be an imposing of Government ( for I would have the State-consciences left to their liberty as well as Particular , and yet Truth to have the liberty of accesse unto them ) I would have the power of the Parliament laid up there : we have had too sad experience when it hath been given out from thence , and trusted too far . Paul referred himselfe thither , ( I stand , saies he , at Cesar's Judgement-seat ) rather then to the Councell of the Priests and Elders . Christ had more favour from Pilate a Roman Governor , then from Caiaphas the Priest .

One word more . How can the Parliament properly be said to be fully perswaded , &c. unlesse they could freely signe it with a Jus divinum , or divine Right ? Nothing but Scripture and the Word , can properly fully perswade . Now if they cannot find so much Scripture as to warrant it for Christ's Goverment , how can there be a purely Gospell-warrantable , a full perswasion , or faith , where there wants a word of faith to secure it ?

And now I shall forme your Argument , you halfe made to my hand thus , and return another with usury .

Your Argument is this :

Those that set up a Government which they cannot be fully perswaded on , cannot but sin .

But , the Parliament cannot be fully perswaded of this Government :

Therefore , if they set it up they cannot but sin .

My proofe is this in behalfe of your Argument .

That conscience which is not wholly consenting , is not fully perswaded .

But , such is the State or Publike conscience , viz. not fully consenting at this time :

Therefore , the State-conscience is not fully perswaded .

Note .

Because some are more for it , some are lesse for it .

I prove the State-conscience not fully consenting .

That conscience which hath not Scripture to secure it , cannot be fully consenting or perswaded .

But ▪ such is the Publike conscience at this time concerning this present Government :

Therefore , the Publike or State-conscience cannot be so fully consenting or perswaded .

Note .

Because they which cannot call it a Government by Divine Right , are not secured concerning it by the Word ; and then , by conscience , are not fully consenting nor perswaded .

Master Ley's Resolution pag , 9 , & 10.

If we take his reason to stand immediately against obedience , and so consequently against commands , &c. It is more formall , but still as feeble ; Repugnant to Religion and reason , against former Protestations , and the Covenant ; for some will alwaies scruple , &c.

Reply .

Some of this might have been spared . Let us have as much reason , and as little reviling as may be . Your reason is , because then neither Protestations nor Covenant of State can be administred ; for some will alwaies scruple . So as here is the force of your reason ; Because Protestations and Covenants in the State are put upon a people unwilling and malignant , therefore Government should .

First , a truth of Government , and the establishment of it , is but indirectly , unsutably , and disproportionably proved from Oaths and Covenants . Indeed , under the Old Testament , and in the State of Israel , Covenants were more agreeable to the way of that Church ; they were part of the Worship then ; and it was a way of obligation and engagement , fitted more to the Policie of that Nation : They were a People or Nation of themselves , singled out from the world , and marked by a carnall Ordinance : And their Discipline was fitted to the whole Nation by God himselfe ; and so Covenants , &c. gathered them up from the world into their Nationall way of Worship , &c. But now , the way of Church and Worship changing , and the Laws of such kind of externall Pedagogie ceasing , and a more inward and spirituall Law comming in , you might have done well , ●re you took things thus for granted , to cleere the way of Covenants under the Gospell , and not to prove one probable thing by another . Those of your way are against a little Church Covenant , and why not a great one ?

For the imposing of Protestations now , &c. It is not my work here to discusse ; nor am I against any way of State-security , that may consist with ●ound Prudence : and for the spirituall part of them , wherein men covenant in the things of God ▪ let every one be fully perswaded in his own mind : That is the Apostle's rule , I am sure , what ever any say to the contrary , and will stand . In civill things , I would have any way or designe of assurance that is fairly and justly Politick : in spirituell things , only such waies of assurance as are Gospell-waies , and may sure with the New Testament-beleevers .

And now you are to prove more then perhaps you thought on ; that is , to cleare a Church-covenant , which many of your Way are against : for though you condemne it in some Churches , not of your Way ; yet a Nationall Church-covenant you plead for . And how can this be both true and false , that a great Church-covenant is lawfull , and a little one unlawfull ? A Nationall Church-covenant lawfull , and a Particular or Congregationall Church-covenant unlawfull ? This only by the way : To shew you how one may mistake his way in a mist : you were proving a Government , and now you are engaged to prove Church covenants , which you are both for and against .

And yet , after all this of Protestations and Covenants , there is no faire proofe of establishing a Government , or imposing it in your way and designe from these . It is not safe going to the State for a Paterne for the Church . If the State in certain seasons of unfaithfulnesse and unsettlement , contrive any way of security and assurance ( necessity is often a law maker in States , yet not so in the Church ) will you from hence argue for a liberty in the Church ? Will you make necessity your Gospell , your Law-giver there ? Necessity is sometimes a suspender of laws in the Gospell , but no law-maker .

Master Ley's Resolution , pag. 10.

But I answer : I wonder an ingenuous man , as M. Saltmarsh is , should make such an Objection .

Reply .

These are good words ; and I hope you shall have no worse then you bring : Yet we must speak truth .

Master Ley's Resolution , page 10.

I answer : The Church government is such as in the chiefe parts of it is from the Word .

Reply .

You grant then that the Government is but in some parts warrantable by the Word ; So was Episcopacie and Prelacy in some parts of it . There is not any false Worship or Way , but it hath some parts of truth in it . The great Image had a head of gold . &c. The Mystery of iniquity sits in the Temple of God , &c. The Whore of Babilon sits in Skarlet decked with gold , and precious stones , and Pearles . Truth must be all one and the same , and homogeneal , not in parts . The Jews had not the Law , but then their own traditions mingled . There is one Lord , one Faith ; not two .

Master Ley's Resolution , page 10.

Things of lesser moment in it , though they are not directly from Scripture , yet not repugnant ; they are of Prudence , and agreeable to the best Reformed Churches .

Reply .

But , Why of lesser moment ? All things are of moment of spirituals . Indeed , if they be such as be not the Gospel ▪ s , they are then , as you say , of lesser moment : and yet of moment too , in another sense ; for , Traditions of men make void the Commandements of God .

Nor are the grounds of Prudence any Scripture-grounds to rule by . Prudence hath let in more Will-worship then any thing . Prelacy had its Prudence for every New additionall in Worship and Government : And if Presbytery take Prudence too , let the Reader judge what may follow .

And what is that , Not directly from Scripture , yet not repugnant ? Surely Christ's rule is not such ; he opposes any Tradition to the Commandements of God . Not directly from Scripture , is repugnant to Scripture : Such is the onenesse , entirenesse , indivisibility , and essentiality of the Truth . He that is not with me , is against me .

And for the Reformed Churches as a rule ; that is to set the Sun by the Dyall , and not the Dyall by the Sun . We must set the Churches by the Word , and not Church by Church , and the Word by the Church .

Master Ley's Resolution , page 10. & 11.

Because the practice of the Government belongs not to the peoples part , but to the Ministers and Elders .

Because , so far as concerns the peoples compliance , they are to be instructed before they yeeld submission .

Because if any remain unsatisfied , they are not to be put upon his Dilemma of sin or misery , or to be ruled with the rod , but meeknesse , 2 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25.

Because the ignorance of the people generally , which he would have for a reason to suspend it , ought to be rather a reason for expedition , that they may practically know it : for while it is unknown ▪ it is slandered , which might have been more amiable .

Because his two Texts make not only against the suspending for a time , but for ever : I wish he would preach such Texts as these to his people ; ● ▪ Thes. 5. 12 ▪ 13. 1 ▪ Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13. 7 ▪ 17.

Reply .

To your first , It belongs not to the people , &c. It seems then the people must be kept out from all intermedling . But I would have the people mark well what kind of Government that is that sits upon the waters or people : I am sure Christ's Government takes in the people : and being once in a Church-way , they lose their old capacity for a new , and are raised up from People to Brethren , Act. 15. It is a worthy saying of Master Goodwyn and Master Nye , That the Clergie got the golden ball of Government amongst them ; and I censure it is not much mended in the Presbytery .

But you say , The people must be instructed , that is , they must only know that they must obey . But they are called , and consulted with , and owned , as the Scripture holds forth , where ever there is any Church spoken of ? But what though instructed ? They are only to be instructed and taught that this is the Government to which they must submit . So the people under Popery , Prelacy , &c. were instructed , with that limitation and restriction . But shall they be thus instructed and taught in it ? People , here is a Government which to some of us seemeth to be a Government according to the Word ; take it and examine it : if you be so perswaded , and that the Word holds it forth clearly , embrace it ; if not , do not obey anything in blind and implicite obedience . This were faire dealing with Conscience ; thus the Churches of Christ had their Government among them .

To that of the peoples compliancy you speak on , it is not my work here to dispute the Interests of Elders and People distinctly ▪ ; but to make answer , that the complyancy and submission which are the duties you set out for the people , are such as they may easily see the Interest you allow them : viz. an Interest of compliance only , and submission or obedience to what is done already not any liberty to examine and refuse .

And when people are instructed , still your work remaines to prove your Presbytery over Congregations , or a Church gathered out of a Church to be over a Church ; which may upon the Presbytery more justly be recriminated then where you do so often recriminate , upon gathered Churches . And me thinks to me it is unreasonable to taxe any for church-gathering , when your very Presbytery is maintained by such a kind of principle . What is your Classicall , your Provinciall , your Nationall Presbytery , but a Church gathered out of the rest , call it a virtuall , or representative , or what you please ?

For that of Meeknesse ; how meek it will prove , and how meekly they shall be dealt with under it , we are not to judge by any promises of Meeknesse , but by Principles . Are the Principles such as naturally bring forth Meeknesse , or rather such as invest the Ministers and Elders with a power supreame and of dominion ? But what if such as your self , and some other godly meek of your Way , may propound nothing but waies of meeknesse to your selves ? Can you undertake to secure the people for hereafter , and for all of the Way , and for the Way in its own nature ?

There are things of meek appearances , as the Presbytery may be , yet prove not so . The Lamb in the Revelation had two horns , though a Lamb. Hazael could say ▪ Am I a dog , that thou shouldest think so harshly of me , that I should kill the children in the womb , 2 King . 8 ? He as little suspected his own cruelty , which the Prophet foresaw in his nature would come to passe as you do in your Presbytery , which some , seeing into the nature of it , cannot but prophesie accordingly . You know Episcopacy began in meeknesse , and Bishops were brought in first for good and for Peace : But how proved they ? Tyranny had ever a countenance of Meeknesse and Love , till it got seated in the Throne . So Absolon was very faire spoken in the Gate ; but how was he in the Throne ?

For that of my Dilemma of sin and misery , which you say people shall not be put upon ; it may be some in your or another Classis may find more meeknesse , a spirit of more love and ingenuity : But what is this to the nature of the Government , that some in it are well natured ?

And for that of sin and misery ; surely if the Presbytery be set on with power , many a one will be in that snare , partly in feare , and partly in an easie complyancy : For there are whole Parishes and Counties of this constitution : And you your self say , The wilfully weak must have the rod. And who will this be ? Such as are so in the judgement and interpretation of the Classis ? or how ? I would this were well cleared .

And for your Scriptures of 1 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25. Shall I come to you with a rod , &c. and in meeknesse instructing , &c. These are full Scriptures for ordering any Church government : These are good Laws ; but then men must be rightly in Commission for ruling by them , and people rightly ordered and disposed for such rules , as in all other Laws and Kingdoms . But what is this to your purpose , till your Government appeare to be all Christs ?

To that of the ignorance of the people , which you would have for a reason of expedition rather then susponsion , that they may practically know it ; I answer :

In practicall godlinesse , the Scripture-way is not so : Things must first be known , before practically known , or else the obedience can be but mixt , blind , and Popish . Who can practically obey , taking practically in a Scripture-sense , that is , with knowledge , till they know and be perswaded ? Indeed in things civill , &c , or morall , practice may bring in knowledge ; habits may be acqui●ed and gotten by Acts ; a man may grow temperate by practising temperance , and civilly obedient practising civill obedience : But it is not so in Spirituals , there , habits go before acts , spirituall infusions before practices .

And for the amiablenesse of it , look into other Reformed Kingdoms , and see what power of godlinesse is there by reason of it . Do we not see the huge bodies of Nations very sinfull , corrupt , formall ? For Scotland , our Brethrens preaching and watchfulnesse , it may be more powerfull in a Reformation upon them , then their Government . And further , I deny not but a Government of that nature may much reforme the outward man : So may a meer prudentiall Government , a meer civill Government , if sincerely executed . The Romans had a very moral people under their Yoke , when their laws were well executed . Prelacy and Bishops had a Government which was Antichristian , yet by an exact execution , could chastise the outward man in some measure .

For your other reason : That my Texts make against not only the suspending for a time , but for ever ; I answer .

It is true , Principles and circumstances considered : For if neither the Government be Christs , nor the people Nationally a Church , when can you settle it ? And if there be no Gospell-promises , that people shall fall in so nationally as the Iews did , excepting some that concerne the world in general , as Isai . 49. 22. then how or when will you settle , or what will you settle , or upon whom ?

And for the Texts you commend to me for preaching , 1 Thes. 5. 12. &c. they all concern peoples obedience to their Elders and Rulers ; they are very materiall and pertinent to that : And I shall in requitall commend some other backe to you ; as those of not lording it over the Heritage : Against preeminence ; as helpers of your faith ; of service , and ministery : We are your servants ; we entreat you , and beseech you , not seeking our own things , not for filthy lusre , but of a ready mind , &c.

We must consider , Scripture must be taken in the wholenesse and entirenesse of it ; and we must not only mind people of their obedience , but Elders and Ministers of their service , duty , Ministery , humility , self-deniall , &c. And thus in a just distribution , deale out both to Ministers and people their measure .

Master Ley's Resolution , page 12.

Strange that he should plead for a delay in establishing of Reformation from the Covenant , wherein we are bound to endeavour it sincerely , really , &c. and more strange , under the title of Popery too , which in the next Article of Popery is disavowed ,

Reply .

Not so strange as you make it ; for we are covenanted to endeavour a setting up the Government , not a Government ; that is , as it is expounded in the Article , the Government , or Reformation according to the Word of God , &c. not a Government or Reformation of any other sort . So as I plead for a delay only in setting up a Discipline , not the Discipline : or more plainly , that the Discipline be such , that the covenanters may not violate that Article , wherein they are bound to do every thing according to the Word , and so prove unfaithfull in their covenant , while they are most zealous for it . There was such a kind of mistake in the Jews , who would have stoned the Lord of the Sabbath in zeale to the Sabbath , and following after righteousnesse , yet did not attain to the righteousnesse of God .

And for the title of Popery which I put upon such obedience ; which you say cannot be , because discovered in the next Article of the Covenant : I answer , The Popery is not in the covenant , but in the Interpretations upon it , and the mistaken practice of it , which is the thing I only aver . O! How soon may we be Popish under a Covenant against it ! What are the maintenance of Ministers by Tythes ? Jewish and Popish undeniably , and yet no notice of this at all . I had as great a Tythe once as another , but I could not hold it so , neither by Covenant nor Gospell . Nor do I taxe the Parliament , but those who are betrusted to commend Spirituall grievances to their Senate , &c. Brethren , let us lay down these grievances : Countries and Famalies are burdened : Let not the Ministers have their hooks abroad in every thing of the peoples , like Elies sons . We know the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Netherlands take their Tythes to maintain their wars , and will not let their preachers live by decimation , bur by pension . And methinks you that professe ingenuity , should be so candid to distinguish where you see I distinguish , and not to force on constructions of this nature , which neither any thing of mine nor the Covenant will beare .

And for what you say concerning the composers and penners of the Covenant , I am willingly silent : I would not aggravate any thing against a Brother , as you are , which might be only a failing in your Pen.

Master Ley's Resolution pag. 12 , & 13.

For that he saith of peoples implicite obedience , &c. of their being devoted to any thing the State sets up by Statutes , cannot be for these reasons :

Because , as in the former Reason , Instruction must go before .

Because , for that of their being devoted , it makes against setting up Doctrine as well as Discipline , and Authority of Parliament as well as Authority of Ministery : They not Ministers , make Statutes .

Reply .

To your first , That instructions must go before , I have answered to this before , as you expounded it before : One word more will suffice . What kind of instruction is it you mean , but authoritative compulsive instruction , such as the Schoolmasters , even your own instance , and here most pertinent , who teaches and whips every one of those that will not understand as well as he ? Something an unreasonable way of correction in matters of pure beleefe and conscience , and best amongst boys , as your instance implies : Men of Scripture-consciences cannot beare it .

And for that you say it makes against Doctrine as well as Discipline : Yea , in some sort it is granted ; for neither Doctrine nor Discipline ought to be forced but in a Gospell-way .

And for that you say it makes against the Parliament , because they make Statutes : I answer , Nothing makes against a Legislative power , which reduces it to ruder , and clearer , and free ▪ Principles . And thus the Parliament very justly argues in all their Remonstrances touching the King , while they go about to reduce him to his just Rights , from those exorbitances he suffers himselfe to be brought into . For instance : He that wishes the Parliament might only proceed in a way , not grieving the Spirit nor hazzarding the persecution or Truth , nor oppressing any Gospell-principle , to which they are covenanted , not keeping on in any sin of former Parliaments , of severe imposing in matters of Religion so controvertible : Is not he , I say , that so wishes , a better friend to Parliaments , Laws and Statutes , then those of contrary Principles ? Nay , I must professe that to me that very one Article of Reforming to the Word of God , most providentially inserted , is an Article of Caution , both against imposing and punishing , lest through want of a cleare discerning , we be found ▪ violaters of that we covenant to maintain , and ought to be sadly considered by all .

Master Ley's Resolution , page 12 , & 13.

His second reason of experience , That the speedy setling , &c. takes little root but in the outward man , &c. concluding pathetically , Why , do not daies speak , and multitude of years teach knowledge ? In answer ,

1. That the fault was not in over-speedy setling , but in the choyce of a wrong Government .

2. Because the Doctrine goeth on with Discipline , and so the power of the Word may go deep into the conscience , as a Schoolmaster who teaches and corrects .

3. Because the Discipline is an hedge or wall about the Doctrine , a goad to the Means of Grace , a curb to licentious courses ; though with many it go but to the outward man , that is not to be imputed to the Discipline , but their corruptions , &c.

4. Because where the Discipline hath been rightly chosen and setled , God hath blessed it with better fruits ; as in Scotland , where there is no Heresie nor Schism , &c.

5. For that of Elihu in Job , Why , do not daies speak , &c. it makes not for his purpose ; but that Wisdom is with the ancient , and gray-headed to be heard before young or green-headed Counsellors , &c.

Reply .

To your first , That the fault was in the choyce of a wrong Government , &c. I answer : That is the feare now , least there should be a choyce of a wrong Government , and so the same fault should be committed again : And this very Government hath no Image of Divine Right upon it , nor hath it warrant in all things from the Word , as your self acknowledge .

To your second : That Doctrine and Discipline go together , &c. Yea , pure Doctrine and pure Discipline go rightly together ; and if either be impure or unsound , there is so much the more danger : So as this is an Argument rather against you , because where Doctrine opens the conscience , and lets in any thing of Discipline but that of the pure Word , there is one evill only mended with another .

And for your instance of a Schoolmaster , who both teaches and corrects : You know we are not to prove but to illustrate by similitudes : And that of a Schoolmaster is a fitter illustration for the Pedagogie of the Law , and that Discipline then the Gospels : You know the Apostle uses it only to that ; The Law was our Schoolmaster , &c. Gal. 3.

To that of your description of the Government , that it is a curb , a goad , &c. I answer ; There is nothing you say of Government in these words , but may be said of any civill Government , nay , of Prelacy , when it was in its primitive form . But that only which you ought to say , and that which only differences it from all devised forms of men , as your Covenant binds you , and ought to be your only reason for erecting and setting it up , is this : Is it the Scriptures form or model ? Is the people so in the exercise and capacity of it as in the Gospell times ? If so , then you prove something . And further : All this you say is true in a kind too of Christs Government ; but yet , in some sort communicable with devised Governments . The only distinguishing and essentiall marks are not to be a curb and goad , but the Scriptures only mark and image , and some spirituall operations , &c. which no other devised form of man hath .

To your other , of the blessings and blessed fruits in Scotland that there is no Heresie nor Schism there , Let Master Coleman ( our learned and pious Brother ) speak for us both , from his experiences . And for that Kingdom , time will shew whether it will prove to be a blessing or no , to want that which you call Heresie or Schism . Surely to be free from Heresie and Schism , in a Scripture sense , it is such a blessing as the whole Gospell cannot patern . What ? No Heresie in a whole Kingdom ? No Schism in a whole Kingdom ? Never such a pure Church heard on ? Corinth , Ephesus , Colosse , Jerusalem , Antioch , all not comparable ? The worst I wish our Brethren there , is , that all were so pure as we heare on . Indeed Scotland had the honour to awaken us first in the work of Reformation and Liberty ; but lest Scotland should be puffed up , England shall have the glory ( I hope ) to improve that liberty to a fuller light , which some would close up too soon , in the narrownesse of a Presbytery .

Methinks there is something of this nature considerable in the Lutherans , who though they follow the first Light in Germany , yet the Lord hath suffered them to stick there without a fuller Reformation , that the first may be last , and the last be first ; For if a State be covenanted so close to the Word , they had need be favourable and free to all that are accordingly covenanted ; for each mans conscience is the Interpreter in himself of what makes for or against the Covenant he takes ; and by this very Covenant , you are all to be tender to consciences , because the Spirit of God ( not power of men ) can intterpret the Will of God ; but in their civill and prudentiall things only , they may interpret themselves .

To that of Job , That with the ancient , is wisdom and with the gray-headed ; which you apply in way of reproach to the younger , whom you call as it were green-heads : I answer , That the elder I esteem as fathers , and the younger we know are such in whom the Lord speaks more gloriously , as he himselfe saith ; Your young men shall see visions , and upon your sons and daughters I will powre out my Spirit , your old men shall dream dreams . Now whether is it more excellent to dream dreams , or to see visions ? The Lord delivered Israel by the young men of the Provinces . Surely we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of Reformation , then to the elder that dream dreams of it only .

Master Ley's Resolution , pag. 15 , & 16.

There is great disproportion of times . Men were then converted from Paganism , and while they were so , they were uncapable . Our Congregations in England are professed Christians ; and though there be many not so wrought on by the Word , &c. That is rather a reason for the establishment of it , Ezek. 22. 26 , 1 Cor. 4. 21. Prov. 23. 13 , 14. Nor can Sabbath nor Sacraments be administred without it .

Reply .

To that of the disproportion ( you speak on ) of times , and conversion , &c. I answer :

The Apostle's and Primitive times are the times we are to looke at for a patern and modell . 'T is true , there is great disproportion ; for they were Apostles who gave the government then ; yet are but private Divines , as you say by me , if you be compared with them .

For that of the conversion from Paganism to Christianity :

There is no such disproportion there neither , but that very proportion which our Saviour hath himself foretold , and set forth : For how doth a Iewish and Antichristian State differ ? Nay , how doth a Heathenish or Paganish State , differ from an Antichristian or Parochiall State , as Parochiall or Parish is in that notion ? Christ hath put them that are out of the Church under that very notion , Matth. 19. 17. and the spirit in the Revelation makes the Antichristian State to be as unlawfull as a Paganish , and cals out equally from that as from the other , as by comparing , 2 Cor. 6. 17. Rev. 18. 4. together will appeare .

So , as speaking of things and notions , I cannot but speake in a Scripture way nor am I uncharitable in this neither , though I thus speak ; I looke on thousands in this State as godly beleevers : It is not the Pastors I write against , but the way . There may be a Moses in Pharaohs Court ; a Ioseph in Po●phar's house ; a Cornelius , or devout man , though out of the Church ; a Luther even in Rome , till the Lord enlighten .

So as government and discipline is a Churches right , and priviledge , not the worlds and Nations priviledges , as so and then . Where are all your quoted Texts which are applied ? Surely that of Corinth , is the Churches ; and that of Ezekiel , and Proverbs , makes not for the discipline of a Church at all .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 16 , & 17.

He makes a comparison betwixt materiall and spirituall buildings , as stone and timber should not be clapt together in the one , soone in the other .

1. Similitudes may illustrate but not prove any thing .

2. Conformity betwixt materiall and spirituall things is not to be carried too far .

3. In materiall buildings , or the Temple , there is not only squared stones , but peeces and rubbish which have their use ; not so in the spirituall ; all things there are homogeneall , and square , and living stones , &c.

4. Those that he accounts rough and unsquared , are in some conformity , though not so polished as others .

5. The best stones are not to be taken from the rest , to make up a building by themselves , as in seperated Congregations .

6. Let him shew any such example in the New Testament where when there was a mixture of holy and prophane , as in Corinth , i Cor. 11. 21. the Apostles gathered out the holy part .

7. That of Axes and Hammers hath a mysterious truth in it , but not to his purpose , viz. That the spirituall building is built of the soft and secret whispers and motions of the spirit .

Reply .

To that of the similitudes :

I fully agree with you , they illustrate better then they prove .

To that of not carrying a conformity betwixt materials and spirituals too high :

I agree with you in that too , yet not so fully ; for Iesus Christ the great Prophet of the Gospell preached the glory of the Kingdome in materiall comparisons , in salt , water , leven , mustard-seed , sowers , husbandmen , vines , vineyards , &c.

To that of spirituall buildings , which you say are to be made up only of squared living stones :

I agree with you , and here the controversie might be ended : If your Temples shall be of living stones , the controversie is granted : But because I will not seem to mistake you , I beleeve the spirituall building you mean , and I , are not the same here : You mean as it appears , the invisible spirituall , or Church mysticall ; and yet there , all is not so Homogeneall , and of the same kind neither : The head of the body is both God and man , and one member like one star differs from another in glory .

But , we are speaking of the spirituall building or Church here , which is the Image of the Church above ; and as that is of true , reall , essentially spirituall living stones : so the Church below is to consist at least of such as visibly and formally appeare so ; and therefore the Apostle cals them in his Epistles Saints , and called to be Saints .

And to that of your peeces of Rubbish in the materiall building :

It is true ; But what is that to Salomons Temple , which my comparison drives up to ? How much Rubbish can you prove in that type , nay , square stones , pure Cedar , gold , &c. to figure out the Gospell-building or Temple , as in Heb. 9. So as your rubbish is only in your owne allusion , not in mine .

To that of your unpolished stones in your Parishes which may fit the Temple now ; I answer :

It must be then only such a building as the materiall one you speake on , which is made up of rubbish and broken peeces : and if that be according to 1 Cor. 19. Eph 2. 19 , 20 , 21 , 22. Christs patern , let these Scriptures in the margin , with many more , determine .

And for their submitting indeed , there is a nationall , blinde , traditionall obedience in them , I cannot call it Gospell submission .

To that of the best stones not to be taken out to make up a building , I answer :

I am sure we are to take in no ill , unhewne , unpolished ; and the Scripture cautions and practise are cleare , &c. then judge you what the stones must be .

Nor doe we so picke and chuse as if all stones were to be square alike , or equally polished ; that is , not in any materiall building : Though we would take in no rubbish , yet we take in stores differently squared . As in the body one member differs from another ; the eye , and hand , and foot , &c. and members lesse honourable , 1 Cor. 12. so in the body of the Church , every one according to his measure , and as every one hath received .

Nor do we stand so for the first polishing as you pretend . You make as if we set up such degrees of perfection as were only the degrees of the invisible or mysticall body , when it is meerly in the degrees of visible Gospell-perfection . By this you would make the carnall to abhor , and the weaker to stumble and be offended ; as if the doore of our Churches were not open for any such whom you imply , were of a temper meerly Spirituall , and of a size of our owne , not the Scriptures . Let the doores of our Churches be as strait as you imply , I am sure your doors are set open , or rather cast off the hinges : but a pure Gospel-entrance is neither too wide nor too narrow . We know there is smoaking flax , and bruised reeds , measures of grace : If they can willingly submit to Iesus Christ their Law-giver , and walk as members of the body ; here they may receive polishing , and have honour , and building up , and many other degrees of perfection which the Saints of God obtaine when they are in fellowship with the Father and the Son .

To that of your challenge , that I should shew any such example in the New ●●stament of taking out the best , when there was a mixture of holy and prophane ; I answer : Those were Gospel-Churches gathered by the Word and Spirit into Gospel-fellowship : and when you make your Parishes to appeare such Churches , then I shall tell you more : till then , I suspend your challenge . The world , and an Antichristian Nation , are both under Christs fan for gathering them out .

To that of a mysterious truth you speak on in the Axes and Hammers , I agree with you in that ; and because of the mystery , I therefore quoted it . And whereas you summe up all the mystery into the soft whisperings and motions of the Spirit , you can hardly warrant us , or secure us that your interpretation is the whole mind of the Spirit , and that very interpretation of yours is part of it the very same I aime at , viz. to shew how the Gospel-building is softly gathered and made up by the Ministery of the Word and Spirit , and not with Axes and Hammers , tools of a compulsive , forcing , sharp , and authoritative nature , as &c.

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 17 , 18 19.

For that of his , &c. whore he makes Christs description of himself , &c. to be against the establishment , and the sutablenesse Christ presses for ; I answer :

1. If his reason be of force against a speedy Government , it is as well against a Government at any time .

2. That Christ in his owne nature , and his Government , differ exceedingly . Christ came to suffer , Paul . 2. 7.

3. Neither is Christ so remisse as not to take upon him a Government . The Head must govern the Body . Nor so meeke : He hath anyron Rod as well as a golden Scepter , Psal. 2. 9. Esth . 5. 2. and though he was sometimes a servant , &c. yet sometimes a Lord too , John 2. 14. and though he be a Lambe , yet he hath a formidable mouth too , &c. Rev. 8. 15.

4. For his Scriptures produced , Mat. 12. 19. 1 John 5. 3. they make nothing against a speedy , but against a grievous Government . And though his yoke be easie , yet not easie to flesh and bloud , Matth. 5. 29. and 16. 2 , &c. as in self-deniall .

5. Nor hath his other place any sober sense in it , Matth 9. 7. nor makes it against Government at this time , but any time . The wine will be alwayes new at the first ; and the longer delayed the older will the bottles be .

Reply .

To that , If against a speedy Government , then against a Government at any time ; I answer :

How doe you infer that ? Nothing of those makes against the Government of Christ rightly constituted , and ordered and setled upon those called to be Saints . Indeed they make against any other Government at all times as well as now . Nor will there be alwayes such a people under Christs yoke as you thinke on . But you look further abroad then I , and in that we mistake one another . You looke that whole Kingdomes and Nations should submit , and I look only for one of a Tribe , two of a City , &c. Your Horiz●n and the Scripture's , for Government , are not equall .

To that of Christs nature and Government differing so much , and therefore my Text proves nothing ; I answer :

Every thing of Christ's bears the Image of Christ . Every Truth of His hath something of Himself in it , who is Truth it self by way of excellency : I am the Truth , saith he . Every beam of light is light : Then how can Christ and his Government differ so as you pretend ?

Surely , if we observe well , there is not any Truth but it partakes of Him who is The truth , and is a beam or sparkle of him . Truth is Homogeneal , and not so unlike and contrary dispositioned and natured as you pretend .

And for your expounding the Text , He shall not strive , &c. as a Prophecye , you doe well in part ; but you know Prophecyes have a latitude , and Scriptures have not only one main and principall , but many subordinate aims : so as though this Scripture concerne his sufferings principally , yet it doth in a latitude set forth the nature of Him who is Truth ; & in Him we may see how those things which are pretended for Truth hold proportion .

To that of Christ the Head , and taking the Government of his Body , &c. I answer :

It is true , Christ is a Head , but he is not a Head to every Body . He will have a Body proportionable to his Head . Is a Nation of all sorts a fit Body for such a Head ? Is he not a pure , holy glorious Head in his Gospell-dispensation ? and is a Body so leprous , so wicked , so formall , so traditionally and Antichristianly corrupted , a fit Body ? Shall I take the members of my body , saith Paul , and joyn them to an harlot , to make one flesh ? God forbid . What then shall the Head do with such Members ?

To that of His Ruling with a Rod of Iron as well as a golden Scepter , Psa. 2. Esth 5. I answer .

And doth He rule any in his Church with his Rod of Iron , who were not called in first by his Golden Scepter ?

And for that of his Iron Rod in Psal. 2. that is spoken of Christ , not as King of his Church , but of Nations .

And that of Esth . 5. what is that Golden Scepter to Christs ? unlesse you bring a Text only to prove that there is such a thing as a Golden Scepter in the Scriptures .

For your other Texts of Christs , being a servant and a Lord , a Lambe and terrible ; you only prove what I grant , that he is more a King , and a Lord in his Government , then in any other of his Gospel-dispensations : But all this will not prove the Lordship of such a Presbytery or Government . Certainly you intend it a terrible Government , because you bring in those Texts that have all the judgement and severity in them which Christ threatens to the Nations and Kings of the earth , not to his Churches . Will you make Christ rule in his Church as he doth in the world ? well , let your Presbytery enjoy the Iron Scepter , while the Churches of Christ enjoy the Golden ; and try if you ruine not more then you rule , and break not more then you bow .

To that of Mat. 12. 19. 1 Iohn 5. 3. The yoke easie , &c they make not against a speedy , but a grievous Government ; I answer :

I cannot expresse my selfe better then in your owne words ; They make against a grievous Government , which is all I aime at in the Quotation . And whereas you say the yoke is not easie to flesh and bloud ; so say I too , it is very burdensome , and the Commandements grievous to the unregenerate ; and therfore I prove from hence , that it is only a fit and sutable yoke for the Saints , and a Commandement for them . And there is the same proportion of the outward government to the outward man , that there is of the other spirituall Laws in the Gospell to the inward man , and none but the Saints can delight in either . Men are to be spiritually moulded and framed to the Law of Gospel-discipline : that kind of Discipline is not like your civill Discipline : this way of Discipline you would have , is too Politick and Nationall ; it takes in a people to subdue as the Laws of Civill Policie , which finding a people unsubdued ▪ subdues them : So doth not Christ as we reade of ; the dispensation of the Word ( not the government ) subdues .

And thus with much ado , you only prove them to be as I intended them , no Commandements for the mixed and unregenerate , or in a word , Christs government no Nationall government .

To that where you say , Nor hath his place any sober sense in it , Mat. 9. 17. The new wine will be alwayes new , and the longer delayed , the older the bottles will be ; I answer :

I wonder that one of your experience in the Majesty of the Word , should be so pleasant with a Scripture allegory , because the Scripture is of wine . You jest on it , as if it had made the sense lesse sober : I am sorry my younger pen should reprove the aged for jesting , which the Apostle sayes is not convenient . And truly it is not comely for the servants to play upon the Master of the Feast , or any thing in his house , especially upon his wine , which alludes so to his bloud , and which he hath promised to drink with us new in his Fathers Kingdome .

Nor will the wine be alwayes new to those that are renewed as they ought to be indeed ; for your Parishes which you call old Bottles , I am sure the wine , or pure government , is too new for them .

Nor will the Bottles be older , as you say , the longer the government is delayed , if the power of the Word be there for renewing them .

But you say , What sense is this ? What logicall connexion ?

I answer , that shall appear there is sense enough , and connexion enough ; and Logike enough , though I had rather have more Scripture and lesse Logike ; for all I aim at , is what the Scripture aims at , that the bottles should be fit for the wine , the necks for the yoke , and the subjects for the commands .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 23 , & 24.

To that of his , That Jesus Christ could as easily have set up his government by miracle , had there been such a primary , &c. necessity , &c.

1. The acts and times for divine Providence towards his Church are various . God had his Church at first and no written Word for it till the Law was writ , and Moses wrote , &c. And God added to the morall Lawes , ceremoniall and judiciall , divers of which were not executed till forty yeares after , at their comming into Canaan ; so far ws God beforehand .

2. Whereas he saith , Christ could as easily have setled the government by miracle ; we grant it , yea , and more , without a miracle ; and yet more that he did so , in Mat. 16. 19. John 10. 23. Mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17.

3. If Christs delay of Government must be our example , then as well for the Anabaptisticall delay of Baptism till his age , Luke 3. 23. nor was it Johns office to set up a Government , but to prepare the way , &c. And Christs publike Ministery lasted but foure yeares , or three yeares and a half , and he began then to set up Government .

Reply .

All your proof reaches but to this :

1. That God dealt variously with his Church . They had first no written Word , and after , a written Word .

2. That Christ could have setled his Government by miracle , but did not .

3. That Christs delay of Government must be no more our example then his Baptisme .

My proofe was to shew there was no such morall necessity of the setling , because it was not setled . Now , what have you overthrown here ? Not that Christ suspended his Government , and the se●ling of it ; for , that you grant with me , and prove it more at large then I did : so as all your rest will be answered in two particulars .

1. To that of Gods Church and Government before his Word , &c. which you would insinuate as some advantage to your serling , &c.

What is that to Gods dispensation now , if there wanted a Word , there was a supplement of vision and dreams , &c. And I hope you will not goe before the Law , so much as you doe for a Patern : You goe too far when you goe to the times of the Law : You have a Prophet now to hear in all things , Act. 3. 22

2. To that of Baptism to be delayed as well as Government from Christs example :

I cannot dispute that here . Master Tomes will satisfie you at large in his learned Examen , where he hath made work for a whole Assembly ; That he knowes not but it may be delayed till they be of years .

But , to answer you in your scope :

You bring this to prove , That Christ is not to be imitated in all things . I grant it . But what is that to prove that Christ setled not his Government when he began his Ministery , or Iohns ? For the businesse on your part is to find out , either that the Government was setled before , or with the Ministery , or there was as much necessity of it as of the Word ; but for some reason , and not from any thing in the nature of the Government , but some other extrinsicall reason it was delayed : Which ought not to take place now .

And this is yet to prove ; all your proof summed up , reaches not to this .

But you imply , The will of God in his dispensations was the cause : But the will of God in his dispensations carries a rule of righteousnesse along with it , and of spirituall reason . And in Gospell dispensations and extrinsicall proceedings of Gods will , you will find a rule and golden reed of righteousnesse measuring the Temple ; and every dispensation , and even this of suspending Government hath its rule in the Gospell , that a word of obedience must precede and go before a forme of obedience , and a word of faith before the obedience of faith , and living stones before a living Temple .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 24 , & 25.

Whereas he saith the gifts for Government were not given till Christ ascended , it is answered :

1. That he ascended 43 dayes after his ministration ; and that added to the yeare forementioned , makes but small difference , &c.

2. He put his Apostles upon neither of these offices , preaching or governing , without competent gifts an ●●ualifications .

3. For the modell of it , which he saith people fell under as they were capable : If he mean the written modell in the Word , though it were young in Christs time or his Apostles , yet not now ; we have had 1500 years si●c● . Why should that which is so old in constitution , be thought too soone for execution ? And bisides Scripture directions , we have many years the paterns of ●● in many Reformed Churches .

4. It hath by soft and slow degrees been brought in , a● both in debates of Assembly , Parliament , &c. And so for execution ●●● ; First , an Ordinance for Ordination , and then a Directory , &c.

Reply .

You prove here :

1. That Christ gave gifts when he ascended , and ▪ not any longtime in all his ministration and sending gifts .

2. That he qualified ●●s . Apostles for government and preaching .

3. That the government of Christ now so old , should be seen set up as in other Kingdomes .

4. That it proceeded by degrees in its setting up here .

Now all this thus gathered up , proves not any thing against my assertion , that Christ proceeded by degrees in his Ministery , and giving out his government ; but rather strengthens my assertion .

And for your Arguments for setling , implyed in these particulars :

1. That Christs government was but a while in bringing forth , the years considered .

2. That the government in the Gospel being now so old , might to be soone executed .

3. That the Paterns of it are in other Reformed Churches .

I answer to all these in as few words :

1. Prove your Argument first to be Christ● , the particulars , and entirenesse accordingly , and then I shall allow you your Argument ; but you grant it to be but partly Christs , and partly the Assemblies , or of Prudence .

2. You must prove but the same againe , that the government you have , is the government , there withall Gospel-necessaries take in ; else , though the Gospel-government be never so old , yours is but new ; and this Argument is no better then the first .

3. Prove the other Reformed Kingdoms to be Reformed Churches , as Churches are taken in the Gospel , and their Paterns pure Gospel-paterns , which by your owne you acknowledge to be in part prudential or humane as well as Evangelical and Divine ; and then your reason may have some force in it . Till then , you see with all you can doe , you cannot prove but Christs government was divers years in bringing forth by himself and his Apostles ; and so by your owne account , you ought not to be before them , unlesse you assume fuller Revelations of truth then they did .

Let the Reader judge whether any of these makes for the setting up your government , or the taking down my reasons .

To your last ; That this Reformation hath proceeded by slow pa●es and degrees .

What ? Would you prove it by its slow proceedings to be Christs Government , and therefore to be setled ? That were a strange kind of reasoning : Because Christ proceeded by degrees in giving out the glory of his Kingdom here , therefore every thing that proceeds by degrees , is Christs Government . Here is some kind of Logick indeed , as you say , but no Scripture : as for instance ; He that saies such a one is a living creature , saies truly ; He that saies such a one is a beast , saies he is a living creature : Therefore will it follow , He that saies such a one is a beast , saies truly ; So , He that saies Christs Government proceeded slowly , saies truly ; He that saies your government proceeded slowly , saies truly ; Therefore , He that saies your government is Christs government , saies truly . What have you got now by your Logick ?

Whereas you say in your second , Christ gave gifts and qualifications for government : I answer ; If you and your Parishes have such gifts and qualifications as in Ephes. 4. 1 Cor. 12. set it up when you please ; if not what haste ?

Master Ley's Resolution , Pag. 26 , & 27.

Now to his Rules and Considerations of Prudence ; The more time ( saith he ) for trying spirits , the lesse danger to that State , &c. I answer :

1. It is the duty of a State not only to try spirits , but to rule them .

And rather to rule them , then to trie them , Prov. 29. 15. and the longer they live without the yoke of Discipline , the more enormous .

And for trying all things , there is a due proportion of time to be observed .

Though it hath been the ill hap of our Chureh , &c. to have the government fluttering on the lime twig at Westminster , when it should be on the wing of actuall execution all over the Kingdom .

2. He makes it a dangerous matter for the State to involve it selfe into the designes of Ecclesiasticall power .

But unseasonably applyed to Presbyteriall-government , because both Popish and prelaticall power is abjured by it by covenant .

3. Whereas he saith , There can be no danger in the not too sudden incorporating , &c. since Moses is not alive &c. a new star may arise .

It is a groundlesse conceit refuted already ; and for that of Moses , &c. he b●wrayeth his designe to debarre the government for ever ; and for that of a new star arising , it prepares the way for some Barchochebas who pretending to be Jacobs Star mislead the Jews , and was called Benchozba , the son of a lye .

Reply .

You prove against me :

1. That people ought to be ruled rather then tried , &c.

2. That sometime is to be allowed for triall .

3. That the government hath been fluttering too long at Westminster .

4. That there is no danger to feare the Presbyteriall government , which hath abjured Popery &c. Dominion by Covenant .

5. That some of this is refuted already .

6. That my designe is to debarre it for ev●● .

7. That a new Star is a misleading star ▪

To your first I reply ;

It is true in civill government , rule there rather then trie : But what is that to Church-government , or Discipline ? The rule there , is the will of God , which is the only rule in government , and legislative power in the Church ; and that is , Trie all things before either you rule or be ruled .

To your second ;

Some time you will allow ( I see ) for triall ; but you ought not to measure and deale out time but by the Standard of the Word ; and before you call for such quick obedience as you do , and as the Apostles did , prove your power , and truth , and conclusions , and by such Apostolicall and infallible evidence , and then it is our sin if we submit not . And let the time you deale out not be like that of States and Armies in their Treaties , who are finall and peremptory in the seasons they set : You cannot set such time ; the Spirit breaths when and were it listeth .

To your third ;

What is that to the present Discipline what the Covenant abjures ? Covenant and Discipline are two distinct things ; a Covenant may abjure in word , what yet a government may practice indeed .

Nor is it enough to abjure Popery in grosse , but in every part & parcell . And now having abjured , it is not enough to sit down in that satisfaction that we have sworn against Popery ; but to search out , lest we be forsworn in the practice of it . Such a duty begins from the time of abjuring ; and it lies not only upon the State to find out Popery ; but every one in his own particular is ingaged , you and I , and every Covenanter : and therefore seeing you have ingaged thousands by conscience against Popery , and to endeavour &c. you are bound to give the same conscience liberty to bring in its result and enquiry ; else you make it a snare and trouble to Israel , and not a Covenant . And now I professe here a just and undeniable liberty by Covenant to bring forth all of Popery , Prelacy , or truth they know .

To your other ;

Why should ye speak of governments fluttering on a lime-twig at Westminster ?

Sure the State or Parliament may deserve better of any of the Assembly ▪ then to be thought their retarders or l●me twigs : How have they honoured them above their Brethren , printing their ingagements to the world before every Sermon , calling them into so neere a capacity with themselves ? though Divines have been unfortunate before , and their Predecessours raised in the curtesie and piety of former States and Parliaments into a Law and power above their Brethren ; which I hope our Brethren will remember and beware of .

But because I would not wholly interpret you into so dangerous a sense against the State , it may be you may call your dissenting Brethren the lime-twig ; which if you do , you are contrary to your own Argument , for you argued but lately the slow proceeding into a very warrantable and Scripture-way : and will you now mar●all , and defile your Argument with a lime-twig , and bewray rather your slow proceeding to have been of constraint then conscience ?

To your other ; That this is already refuted :

I say no more ; but as you have formerly refuted , so I have formerly answered ,

To your other ;

That my designe by that of Moses is to debarre it for over ; I answer :

Yea , forever would I debarre a government not clear from the Word , and not one haire would I debarre a government that had the name of Christ in Scripture-letters engraven upon it , pure Gospell-principles and proceedings .

To your other ; That a new-star is to prepare for a misguider , and your story of Barchochebas upon it , it hath more light somnesse then light in it . But why should you be so pleasant with my expression of truth by a Star ? It is the very allegory of the Spirit . Christ cals himselfe the morning star , the light which springs from above . The Spirit is called the day-star arising in our hearts ; and the Spouse is attired in a crown of twelve stars .

Nor do I call to any to look for a new created star of truth , but an old , yet new appearing star to us , one of those stars in the Gospell-firmament , which the Clouds of Tradition and Ignorance hinder us from seeing ; And now , what of your story ?

But what way is most likely to mislead ? That which b 〈…〉 you prove and try all things and accordingly follow ? or that which saith , This is the way , compell them to come in , not only as the Gospell compels in the Parable by a Spirit of power but by a civill power ; not a power of word only , but of State too : and so tw-sting the Gospell with the Law , and humane authority with divine ?

Master Ley's Resolution , pag. 27 , 28 , 29.

To his other prudent all rule , which is , That he makes the Civill and Ecclesiasticall power so linked , that if there be motions in the one , there will be no quietnesse in the other ; I answer :

1. He aimes at the perpetuall prohibition , not at a temporall forbearance only . He carries it on so , as if we must allow him the authority of a Politick Dictator .

2. What if they reciprocate interests ? must the Civill State leave every man or Congregation to be governed ? Judg. 17.6 .

3. Because disturbances are communicated , therefore the Civill State ought to settle the Ecclesiasticall , that it may enjoy its own peace .

the●olleration ●olleration of the Protestants of France ; Henry the fourth being a Protestant , though a revolter , and recovering his rights by the arms of Protestants , he could do no lesse in humanity then allow them their Religion ; though now tollerated , because the trust : est friends to the Crown of France .

For that of the State being most free where the conscience is least straitned : If free in indulgence to all Religions , he complies with the Author of The Bloudy Tenet : If free from commotions , experience in severall Ages and Countries prove the contrary .

For that of his Parable of the Teares and the Wheat : If there must be such mixtures tollerated , what warrant have they to pluck the Wheat from the Tares , nay , Wheat from Wheat , in their now gathering Churches ?

Reply .

You prove against my reason the compliance and nearnesse of the Civill and Ecclesiasticall power , occasioning motions in each other .

1. By the authority I assume of a Politick Dictator . But what doth my assuming prove against the complyaney and motions of the two Powers ? This is no proofe against the two Powers of Church and State , but against use . I hope you conceive not they are concentred in me a private Divine , as you call me ; nor would I give any thing out in way or Magistrality , but evidence : you and I , and Assemblies of men , are not infallible .

2. By my aiming at the perpetuall prohibition . But what doth this prove against the compliancy and motions in the two powers ? This is still against me , not against my reason . And further , because I suggest a reason of not embodying the Civill and Ecclesiasticall Powers too suddenly , therefore , saith he , I aime a 〈…〉 perpetuall prohibition . How doth this follow ? I aime to prohibit it , rebus sic stantibus , therefore for ever ? I aime to prohibit it , because as yet , neither the Discipline appears to be all Christs , nor the Parishes fit matter for Churches ; therefore I prohibit it for ever . Is this good reasoning ? They that do over-desire the enjoying any thing , do measure time by eternity , and weeks by Ages , and take a little deferring for everlasting . Why is his Charets , saith Siferah's mother , so long in comming ?

3. Because they reciprocate Interests , therefore is every Congregation to be left at liberty ? Yea , at liberty in Spiritualls ? and not as they will , but as the Gospell perswades the will . Yea , and because they reciprocate Interests , therefore to be left at liberty , say you . Rather , because they reciprocate Interests , to be cautious how they mingle and incorporate Interests too soon . And if any just liberty may arise to the people of God from such State-pauses , why not such a liberty ? Should the Churches be ever persecuted , and have no rest ? It was not so under the first Persecution , Then had the Churches rest .

Because , say you disturbances are communicated , therefore settle the Ecclesiasticall , that the civill may enjoy peace .

But can you secure the Civill from the Ecclesiasticall in peace ? ought you to have a State-being , or a Church-being first ? Is this good reasoning ? Because disturbances are communicated , therefore order it so that the Civill may be within the Line of communication , or of Ecclesiasticall disturbances , by clasping and incorporating them together . So as it follows better thus : Because they reciprocate Interests , therefore take heed how you establish , because the State cannot but establish a way something of its own , in the Ecclesiasticall .

To that of Henry the fourth's humanity which you presse , because the Protestants helpt him by arms ; I answer :

Let but the same humanity be copied out by the State here , and presse for it here as you do there , and we are agreed . Surely you have the same and greater ingagements . Your Brethren whom you call Schismeticks and Hereticks , have not been sparing of Arms and Bloud in the high places of the field , and in a Cause more glorious , with successe more admirable , with courage as gallant : And sure they have been found as trusty friends to this State , as the Protestants to the State of France .

You say , That State is rather free in indulgence , as the Bloudy Tenet , then free from commotions , &c.

For the freedome contended for by The bloudy Tenet , when I undertake to prove his freedom at large , then put us together ; till when , deale fairly . I could as easily draw something of yours under the Line of Prelacie ; but I would not force any mans notions , much lesse yours .

You see of what stamp the Liberty is I contend for . And for Commotions , let the world judge if all the broyles and combustions kindled not from the Coales on the Alia , and from the flame of an Ecclesiasticall . Interest , such as you contend for .

For that of the Tares and Wheat , &c. where you charge us with mixture tollerated , or rather with plucking up Wheat from the Tares &c. in Church-gathering : I answer :

We tollerate no mixture , but in the world where Christ himselfe tollerates , as in the same Pa●able ; not in the Church .

And for our plucking , it is not plucking , but gathering and calling out : Your words are of more violence then the Word will beare ; that is , more properly plucking , which is a destructive pulling out a bloudy Separation , a plucking of Persecution ; such a plucking as some contend for , and would requite our gathering with plucking , and take us all not for a mixture of Tares and Wheat , but all for Tares .

You say we gather out the Wheat ; it is well you observe that we have Wheat amongst us , which some of your Brethren will searce allow us ; and you very hardly .

Master Ley's Resolution , pag. 29 , 30 ▪ 31.

His other politike consideration is this . Our Parties , or dissenting Brethren now together , and clasped by Interest , &c. I answer :

1. No clasping in the Camp must loose us to division in the Citie .

2. Mr. Saltmarsh in his Politike adviseth to represse factions , &c.

3. The delay hath occasioned a multiplication of Heresies and Schisms .

4. Many disposed to division , heighten their spirits to contumacie and contempt .

To that other of his , it is possible while time is given , opinions may be sooner at peace ; I answer :

1. Possibility is no pleae against probability , nay , cleare experience , that by the Brethrens amiable carriage , they have driven on their designe with a politike activitie , and gained more by their adversaries slownesse , than the goodnesse of their cause .

To that of his Fire let alone under wood , and so to dye out , &c. I answer :

1. Will fire under drie wood quench it selfe , or the setling of a Government be as the Bellows ?

2. The contrarie is plaine by examples of Anabaptists and other Sectaries in Germany , whom Luther at first mediated for with Frederick Duke of Saxony ; but after he was glad to stir up the Princes and people of Germany for extinguishing a common combustion .

To that of his , &c. The contentions of Brethren are like the Bars of a Caestle , Prov. 18. 19. I answer :

1. This is his seale to his politike Aphorisa● : But will the bars of a Caestle be taken by letting alone ? We have not found it so in our wars , &c.

Reply .

To your first , That we must not claspe in the Camp , and divide in the city .

You say well ; we are to agree , or clasp both in Camp and Citie , and to divide in neither .

To your second , Mr. Saltmarsh in his Politikes , I told you before , I dare not allow my selfe the priviledge of an Aphorism of light then , when it was rather night than day with me as I told you . You know Pauls regenerate part or law of his mind , quarrelled with the law of his Members ; so doth mine ; so Luther , Augustine , &c.

To that of delaying occasioning Heresies , Whether may not your setling things thus , be as great an Heresie as you complaine against ? Be sparing . You may call these Truths , which you now call Heresies ; Paul preached that Doctrine after , which before he destroyed .

To that of many heightning their spirits into contempt .

Do not aggravate against your Brethren ; remember your own professed ingenuity , in these words , I would not excite Authority to needlesse severitie .

To that of the Brethrens politike advantage on your slow pace , and amicable carriage , as you say .

Give not over your amicablenesse for that , their policie is no warrant against your dutie ; and if they be politike , blame them in print : For my part , I hate to see in any too much of man in the businesse of God ; but if some of the Brethren be politike , what is that to the rest , who waite for the Spirit in the simplicity of their own ?

But it may be you mistake the advantages , and put their encreasing upon Brethrens policie , which is the power of the Gospell . You know in Christs time many beleeved on him , and the people went after him ; and yet not policie , but his power gathered them .

To that of your fire and drie wood , and that your setling a Government would be no bellows .

Who are the dry wood you meane ? and what fire ? and what by the bellows ? I fit be this , that the setling a Government will quench our contentions ; yea , and it may quench more then it ought , even something of the Spirit may be quenched by it : Persecution may put out many a Candle of the Lords lighting , and many a coale kindled from his Altar : But take heed there be not more fire in the bellows then in the wood .

To that of the Anabaptists and Sectaries , quenched by Luthers mediation :

I dare not beleeve your Historian , nor take all against them from the Pen of an enemie . He that takes the Parliaments battells from an Oxford Pen shall read nothing but Rebellion , rather than Religion , And me thinks I observe much here in your observation to the contrary : We may rather think that Germany is a field of bloud to this day for shedding the bloud of so many consciences for some points of difference . And for Luthers mediation against them ; Look well , and tell me how much the Lutheran there have advanced in the Reformation : Have they not rather stood like Joshua's Sun , where he left them ? Let England take warning by Germany .

To that of the Brethrens contentions , which are like bars of a Castle ; and must not then be let alone ( you say ) as in our Wars :

Yea go on , take these offended Brethren , these Castles , in your military way ; but then , let your Warfare be spirituall , your weapons not carnall put on the armour of light , &c. and take them by a Gospel-siege , and we are satisfied .

But it you take them with the power of the Magistrate , with swords and staves , as they took Christ ; if you come in this Gospel-Controversie to to take them as the Parliament takes in their Towns and Cities , by force of Arms and compulsive Artillery , as your instance seems to imply ; take heed lest you shed more spirituall bloud to that under the Altar , that never ceases to cry , How long , Lord , how long ?

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 32.

To that he saith , We have not yet any experience of our new Clergy Answ.

How can there bee experience of them , if there be no government to try them withall ?

Reply .

So as you will have an hazard run both in State and Church for a new experiment upon the Ministers : but sure your Statists will tell you , it is not safe trying experiments with State ; they are too vast bodies for that . What thinke you of that Physician that will cast his Patent into a disease , to try a cure on him ? You know the old morall adagie , Turpius ejicitur quam non admittitur hospes : One is sooner kept out , then cast out .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 32.

To that , It is not safe trusting a power too far into those hands . Answer .

He need not much feare , the government will be so qualified , so disposed for the persons that manage it , &c.

Reply .

These are faire promises . It is pitty that government should ever be set up , that cannot tell before hand how well it will carry it selfe . Oh I saith Absolon , If I were a King , it should not be thus .

But , what is a qualified Government that is not Christs ? I can never hope to gather grapes of thornes , or figs of thistles . Sure it can never be well for for the Trees of the Forrest when the Bramble will reigne .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 33.

There are many of note who affirme the best way to suppresse the multiplicity of Sects is to let them have scope , and they will run themselves out of breath ; but I cannot give my Vote , false teachers are not to be tolerated , no , not for an hour , Gal. 2. 5.

Reply .

I would there were more such of that minde ; I am sure it is safest and soundest . It is safest , there is no such danger in that of crucifying Christ in ignorance of fighting against God . And soundest , for so they die out most naturally by their owne unsoundnesse , without noise and commotion . Sometimes the cure makes the greater disease , when the cure is not naturall but violent . For that of Pauls withstanding Peter to the face , I allow you all such Gospel-wayes of contention , so you only withstand them to the face , and doe not as the High-Priest did command them to be smitten on the face . Oppose with words as Paul did , but not with swords , taking and turning the Edge of Authority against us .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 33.

We experience , saith be . But where roads this Writer this phrase ?

Reply .

You criticise on words ; I cannot take time to do so ; I wonder you ( an Assembly-man ) have leisure for that ; this is logomac ice , or word-fighting : and why not We experience ? You know our times have found out such ways of elegancy in the English , though I thought not any such thing when I wrote . But why doe I triffle too ? To your matter .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 33.

But it appeareth by his , &c. Whether it be safe to commit the power , &c. That to commit any power , or establish any government , especially the Presbyteriall , is too soon or suddenly done , if done at all .

Reply .

Yea , and it is not too suddenly if done at all , and not done as it ought , or in Christs way : I am for any thing of Christs , when , and where , and how soone you will .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 34.

We may say as he ; Some may be like the ten , yet others like the two Brethren . For two ambitious Presbyterians , there may be ten more modest .

Reply .

But how come you by such plenty of the better sort ? It is not thought by most of your way ; I am sure some of your way were taking care how to furnish their Presbytery . their 10000 Parishes . And this I know , that if there were such plenty , Why doe you make shift with so many of the Episcopall stamp , who keep their Parishes , and resolve while they live , to try out all turns of government , rather then turne off a tythe of two hundred per annum ? But I beleeve the English Presbytery and Prelacy are well agreed in that .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 34.

Besides , the Presbyteriall government is framed directly according to the Resolution of our Saviour .

Reply .

Not so directly neither : It is rather directly according to the prudentiall designe of your Assembly , as you say : so as all yet is but So you say , and we say the contrary ; there is You say , and We say , Authority not Scripture and evidence , carries it on your side ; And let the Reader judge bet wixt us . Indeed you are able to prove by the Magistrate , that your Presbytery is some of it Christs way : That is an Argument of power , not of Scripture .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 34 , 35 , 36.

To that he saith , The Controversie is hottest about government , &c. It may be so without fault in those that are for it , but not without crime in those that oppose it .

To that of his , Is it good parting with the stakes ?

The Question presupposeth evennesse betwixt parties , whereas the difference is betwixt government and no government . The high Court of Parliament , and all the Orthodox Churches , &c. on the one side , and a small inconsiderable party on the other .

Nor is it so much injury to resolve for government against them , as the Bishops , who had possession of Prelacy by a prescription legally &c.

To that of his , It is to be feared there is too much of man :

It is likewise to be in those who despise government &c.

And if the Bias run most to this truth of government ( as he saith ) it is but as it should be .

The Bishops government being put downe , it is necessary some other should be set up , and before all , the Presbyteriall .

And if ( as he saith ) some other truths are wholly set by , it may be the fault of those who set themselves too much against government , I am sure not in such as are for the Presbytery .

And for his caution as he concludes with , I wish he had had more caution in his minde , and his paper ; he had had few faults , and a shorter refutation would have served .

Reply .

You say , The Controversie may be hottest , yet no fault in those that are for it , but against it .

But , is all the heate in those that oppose it ? Nay sure : Witnesse the importunity , the petitioning of your party , &c. we silent all the time .

You say , The difference is not so equall , but betwixt government and no government ; Parliament and all Orthodox Divines against an inconsiderable party .

Indeed it is unequall : It is betwixt a government of man of Prudence , as you confesse , and a Scripture government ; betwixt an huge Nationall Government , and Christs little flocke , or Church . Nor is it a Controversie with the High Court of Parliament ; we contend not with them , but humbly petition and represent the truth unto them : but this is the old way to winde in under the wing of Authority , and to engage them . But they are wise to discern , and not to be engaged as their Predecessors were by the Church-men as they called them ; there are too many sad stories .

But what of our inconsiderable party ? We had rather be a few with truth , then a multitude against it . And how inconsiderable soever we are in number , the stone cut out without hands may fill the earth : the Kingdome of Christ , and the worlds , are not so one as you would make them ▪ Unus homo totius orbis impetum fustinuit ; It was said of Euther ; He was but one against a world . Your non-conformists were but inconsiderable to the Kingdom of Prelacy almost . A pebble in the band of David may do more then a mighty speare in the hand of Goliah .

You say , The Bishops had a better prescription even by Law for their government then we .

But how is this ? Is a legall prescription better hold then a Gospell prescription ? Is it more priviledge to be founded upon a Statute , or Act of Parliament then Scripture ?

You say , If too much of man be in this Controversie , it is in those that oppose and despise Government .

But what is that to our Controversie ? We are not of those that speake evill of d●g●i●ies , or desp●se government , unlesse you count your Presbyterie to be that government and dignitie spoken on by the Spirit ; and that remaines to be proved : That which cannot be proved to be a Scripture-government , cannot challenge a Scripture-law to defend or secure it .

You say , If the Byas run most towards government , it is but as it should be : Yea , if towards a Scripture-government ; else it is as it should not be ▪ and not as it should be .

You say , The Bishops government 's put down , some must be set up ; and that is Presbytery .

But there is one set up already , a civill Parliament arie government ; and will you set up another above that ? or cordinate with that ? Will you set up one government to rule another ? or tutour another ? And must you needs set up as large a Dominion as the eiv●ll Power hath ? Must our Presbytery be full as ample , as high , and supream , as our Parliament ? Will no lesse territory or Kingdom serve it but all England ? Whole Nations ? Must Christs government be just as broad and long as the worlds ? You find not the golden Read for the Temple of that length . Now Reader , judg , which government affects Dominion ? Which brings in whole Nations under the Scepter of it ? Poore Scripture-government can be content to sit down in a Village ; To the Church in thy house , saith the Spirit ; In a City as Corinth , and over but a few there , the Saints only in fellowship ; to the Church in Corinth : In a Countrey not over a Countrey : so the seven Churches in Asia , not to the Church of Asia , or the Church Asia , a Church taking in halfe part of the world . Sure if Christ would have had such a Nationall compreliensive Church , he could have converted King ▪ and Princes first , and they should have given up their Scepter● and Kingdoms to Jesus Christ , in the way of a Presbyterian : Nay ▪ it ought to have been so ; Jesus Christ was bound in the way of righteousnesse , to have be un the practice and modell● to us over whole Kingdoms , having not left it in precept in the whole Gospell ; and we ought either to have had practice or precept to order and command us in what we obey .

You say ▪ If other Truths be set by , it is by those that so oppose Government , and not by the Presbyteriall .

I see the Presbytery must be in no fault : Happy men ! that have nothing but Truth on their side .

You wish I had more caution in my mind and paper , and ● shorter Refutation had served .

Cautions are not amisse both for you and me ; and I think you had need of more caution of the two , by how much more vast and nationall the Government is , you manage . You that put yokes upon whole Nations in a day , had need to have the cautions of a yeers provision laid in before hand .

And for your Refutation of my paper ; do not beare witnesse of your●selfe ; let Truth judge bet wixt us , and let the Reader pray for a spirit of discerning to judge both what is Truth and which is Truth ; that which you , or I , affirme . Nor will I say I have made here a Refutation of yours . If I have done well , What have I that I have not received ? And if I have not , the Lord enlighten and enable me to refute my selfe .

Master Ley's Resolution , pag. 36 , 37 , 38.

To that of his , that the matteriall Temple was more clearly left and known then the Gospell paterne , &c. Answer :

1. He would not be thought to side with Sanballat and Tobijah , and so endeavours to shew some considerable difference .

2. If it be●to● soon now for the Government , will he set a time for it when it will be seasonable ? or will he have it stay till it be a matter all building , or till we have inspired Prophets ?

3. It cannot be of too quick dispatch , if we set it up by the dictates of the Holy Ghost in the New Testament ; nor the determination sudden , if after consideration with Scriptures , with the best Divines , and collation of the exactest paterns , after long debates in the Assembly of Divines , where the dissenting and liberty to object ; and lastly received by Parliament .

4. By the builders , speciall regard hath been had to Jesus Christ for Foundation &c. And now by Master Saltmarsh his consent the work may go on , &c.

Reply .

You say , I would not seem to side with Sanballat and Tobljah .

You say true , I would not . But every building is not Temple-work . And though I would not with knowledge hinder the Temple of the living God , yet if another kind of frame were in building , I would do my best to hinder and be no Sanballat neither . But they are Sanballats , not whom man , but whom the Lord counts so . But surely they hinder more , that set up another kind of Temple then Christs , then he that advises to look well that all be right and Temple-worke that is set up .

To the difference I made of the materiall and Gospell-paterns , you say nothing ; and that is the only considerable . It may be as you said by me , you are best able to deale with the other .

You say , I should set a time then for the setting it up .

Yea , I shall set you a time , yet not in mine own authority but Christ's : When your Patern is all Gospell , and your people all qualified in that Gospellpatern , then is my time for setting up , and then is Christ's time too .

Nor would I stay you for a materiall building , as you say . You know I call you on to the Gospell ▪ I am very far from turning you back to the Law ; I call you on to Christ ; I would not turn you back to Solomon .

And for the inspired Prophets you tell me I stay for , and would have you stay too :

Is not that a very Gospell-way to stay for the Spirit 's coming into the servants of the Lord ? Take heed of denying inspired Disciples . You know it is part of the f●l●illing of the great Prophecie , Acts 2. Indeed some of the Prelates , many of them being uninspired themselves , and having little of the Spirit , or none , would needs say therefore , All inspirations and Spirituall enlightnings , &c. were ended in the Church , because ended in them : and because they were so carnall themselves , they thought none was Spirituall . And you remember how they made Laws even against the Spirit in Prayer .

I speake thus , only to remember you who spoke most against inspiration and the Spirit , lest you may let fall some words which may be taken up by some of that way , to countenance them in their Invectives . Not but that I esteem of you as one inspired your selfe in a measure , and having the Spirit of God in you ; therefore I know the Spirit will be very tender in opposing the Spirit .

You say , you ought to dispatch the Government , because you have followed the dictates of the Holy Ghost , of the Assembly , and Parliament .

Then let me put one Question ; Why is it not called Christs Government ? Why hath it not a Jus divinum , a Divine Right put upon it , if all be of the Holy Ghost in it ? But I would not mistake you ; you say only that all is by the dictate of the Holy Ghost , of the Assembly and Parliament . So it is but part then , by your own confession , of the Holy Ghost ; the rest is of the Assembly and Parliament .

You say , The builders have had speciall regard to Jesus Christ the Foundation .

I will not suspect the Counsels and Debates of any of the builders . I know the Disciples of Christ were true Disciples , though they had not all of the Spirit at one time which they had at another ; I hope and I pray , that the Lord will make up to the builders what of the Spirit he hath not given them ▪ that they may both see to build right , and see where they have builded wrong ; and so pull down againe , as well as set up .

And whereas you say , The building may go on ▪ by Master Saltmarsh his own consent :

I say , your building will go on it seems , whether Master Saltmarsh consent or no. Master Ley , in his capacity , is better able to put it on at this time then Master Saltmarsh is to put it off to another time , unlesse the Lord who is above all , and hath the mighty , even the Princes of the earth to command , work for his own glory above all that we can or think .

Master Ley's Resolution , pag. 38 , 39 , 40.

To the second Objection and Answer of Heresies and Schisms , and so they might have done from Iohn's first Sermon , he saith ,

1. Why doth he begin with Iohns first Sermon . ▪ Were not the Esseans , &c. Hereticks and Schisma icks ? See Epiphanius , &c.

2. He makes Pauls Epistles the terminus ad quem which from John's first Sermon to the last , make up Twenty nine yeers . After the Epistles , he brings in the sending the Spirit , &c. which was but five yeares after the first Sermon of John Baptist .

3. Before the end of the Epistles , that Government was not which we find in Scripture ; and if so , the Church-Government was not long suspended .

4. Nor would it prejudice our expedition : People of that Age could not be so easily gathered as with us they may be .

5. What was long in establishing in Primitive times , cannot be said to be hastily done now , after so many discussions and deliberate resolutions .

Reply .

You say first , Why begin I for Hereticks and Schismaticks from John's first Sermon ?

I begin there , because there began the mystery of the Gospell . And yet I shew you that no Government began with that Gospell manifestation ▪ by which I made appeare , that if Government had been of such morall necessity , why was it not given out with the Gospels first giving out .

Now you prove in a chronologicall discourse the space of time from Johns Sermon to Pauls Epistle , to make the time appeare for Government . And , after you have summed up all the time and periods , and find it no two or three yeers work , you conclude People of that age could not be so easily gathered as now : Nor the long establishing then to be an hasty establishing now .

And now , after all this discourse and ravellings out of time from Johns Sermon , &c. What have you gained ? Not that the Government was soon setled . Then you have proved ( much to my advantage , and in a clearer and fuller computation then I did ) the contrary . So as you have only been taking some learned paines , if you well observe , and the Reader well observe you , to prove that the Government at first was not suddenly cast into modell , nor brought forth in practise , which is the very thing I aimed at ; and truly your pains in it have been more exact then mine ; and I thank you for it .

But you say , It ought not to be so now ; nor can it be said to be hastily done now , that was done so long ago .

You say true in that : But you know the same Spirit must reveale it that formed it ; and it formed it at first by degrees : and the way of Revelation hath been more year's then the first farming ; reckon but your Antichristian years as exactly as you have done your first Christian and Primitive yeares , and you may be more satisfied ▪ So as all , both the first Revelation of it from Prophesies , and the latter from Antichristianism , makes all for the not hastening , which I aimed at .

Indeed , if you can as infallibly assure us this forme and modell is the very forme then given out , it were very true that you say , That it cannot be said to be hastily done now , what was done so long agoe : viz. If it be that very one which was done so long ago .

For your exception against me concerning my placing the giving of the Spirit so late , if you interpret sense by the strict order of words , you will lose many a Scripture truth in the words , as you well know .

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 40 , & 41.

To that of Heresies , &c. he saith ;

What if they do not ster up their Patrons against the State , &c. but they busily poyson the soules of the people ; and shall they ( if as Paul Best ) be suffered to blaspheme and reproach , and perturb the publike Peace ? An Indulgence much like old Elies , &c.

If Truth be not more precious then Peace , why doth our Saviour say , He came not to send pe●ce ? And why do the Fathers contend so against the Arrians about a letter ? And why we so with the Romish Religion rather then be at peace with them ?

For that of morall transgressions , he would have the Magistrates set on .

Set on ? By whom ? We have not such meane thoughts of the Magistrate as to make mention of him in such terms of disparagement .

And for all his Disciplines regulating men for religious walking , there will be worke enough for the Magistrate to bring them under civill tryall for c●ntuma●ie , &c.

Reply .

You say , What ? If here●ies stir not up , they poyson souls .

If they poyson , let the Gospel-antidote be applied then and no other way which the Gospell will not beare no● allow ; there is the sword of the Spirit , and weapons not carnall , but mighty and spirituall .

For that of old Elies indulgences which you speak on you are still looking upon Moses , though you tell us of Christ . Make the Kingdome of Israel and of England the same ; a Iewish and Christian State the same ; and then we shall allow you both Elies sin , and his sons maintenance by tythes & offerings .

You say , Truth is more precious then peace ; yet there is a peace precious as well as Truth , even the Peace of Christ , as well as the Truth of Christ .

But to the businesse ; You would prove Truth to be precious , to the disadvantage of Peace ; and therefore you bring in the Fathers against the Arrians , and us against the Papists , and Christ against Peace : But what would you prove ? Would you prove that truth ought to be established against peace , and peace to be no way to truth ? Surely truth and peace doe meet together ; nay , they are so much one , as there is even a truth in peace . He that was Truth it self could say , My Peace I leave with you .

But , What of the contention spoken on of the Fathers and ●● , &c. If there be any quarrelling for Truth either by the Fathers or us ; but in a Gospel-way , we are not excusable ▪ neither doth Christ speak of truths drawing swords , but of swords drawn against truth ; which is no Argument for you . When Peter would draw a sword in the defence of truth , Christ bid him put it up . So far is he against your way of defending truth .

You say , By whom should Magistrates be set on , and that you cannot speak in such disparaging words ?

By whom be set on ? By the legislative power , by the Parliament ▪ The Parliament can set on their respective Committees , Iustices ▪ &c. and is this any disparagement ? I speak of subordinate Magistrates , not of the supream .

You say , There will be worke for the Magistrate enough , to punish the contumacious ▪ &c.

That is in English , the Presbytery will keep the Magistracy doing : and now who disparages the Magistrate ? Who set them on work ? Who makes them their Deputy-punishers ? Nay , Who is the Satan to whom the excommunicate are delivered ? It is an expression not much besides your principles : and who disparages the Magistrate in that ?

Master Ley's Resolution , Page 41 , & 42.

To that of Truth , being otherwise armed from Heaven ; I answer :

We thinke it not meet to divide the subservient means from the supreme power , nor the exercise of Discipline from his assistance who can make it effectuall , the sword of God and Gideon .

To that of the imputation of jealousie , &c.

There is a godly jealousie , which would set up as many securities as may be against Heresie and impiety .

The faulty jealousie is theirs that would stiffle the Government : but there is a fear which we professe of Gods anger for connivance and communion with hereticall men , &c. There is in some an aversenesse to Heresie in a trne zeal and love of God .

There be many other causes of jealousie , but I will take but that one of the Lords and Commons , p. 43.

If Master Saltmarsh ●ad well considered who were engaged , &c. he would not have undervalued their piety and prudence , to compare them with Papists and Prelates .

I will conclude with a peece of his own politick advice , &c. Vpon such principles is Church-Government ordained ; for his Text out of the Revelation , Rev. 18. 1. As he began , so he ends with mis-application of Scripture .

Reply .

You say you cannot divide Discipline from his assistance , who can make it effectuall .

That is , from the Magistrates . This is a signe without further Argument , that you do not hold your government for Christs , because it cannot be effectuall of it self , without help from below , and the world , and to another power then its own ; nor is the sword of God , and Gideon any faire and just proof for joyning Presbytery and Magistracy ; it joynes only God and the Magistrates .

You say , Your godly jealousie will set up as many securities as may be .

But then they are warrantable and Gospel-wayes of security . That is no godly jealousie which sets up other wayes ; as Herod killing all the children to secure his Kingdome ; David dissembling to escape ; Iacob to get a blessing : there is jealousie , but no godly jealousie nor warrantable security : So to secure any way , though of truth , by a power not allowed on in the Gospell , as no such compulsive power is in your way , is not to be jealous with a godly jealousie ; though I deny not but some of those may be godly who are so jealous , but not in that .

You say , that some fear ▪ Gods anger for their communion with Hereticks , &c.

You know all such feare is only warrantable in the Church not in the world : It is not so with the Nations now as with the Iews . Now if we have not communion with them in the Nation , we must goe out of the world . But , What communion is this you meane that will bring Gods anger ? You have your liberty to withdraw , to separate as they from you : If it be nationall or civill communion , then you pluck up the tares before the time of harvest .

But whom you esteem Hereticks , they it may be think they have as good Scriptures to esteem you so ; and this is Heretick for Hereticks , interpretation against interpretation . And since there is only a sufficiency , but no infallibility now as before ; since there is no Apostles for interpretation as at first , for Revelation , why do we thus cry out , Hereticks , Hereticks ; the Sword , the Sword ? Let me put one Question here .

Suppose those you call Hereticks were of equall number to you , and both of you equally numbred with Magistrates , and both of you equally principled for persecution and both equally calling out for the Magistrates Sword ; What clashing of swords would there be ! What edge against edge ! What authority against authority ! What power against power ! What bloudy doings ! What sad workings ! What confusion would there be ! This is an Image of your Incorporation of your two powers that you so plead for in this kind . If we were equally principled and armed for persecution as you are , and acted by your spirit ; Ah , what a Kingdome would here be !

You say , Some have aversenesse to Heresie in a true zeale to God .

These are but generall notions of Heresie . Every thing is not Heresie that is called so . And for true zeal to God in that aversenesse all this is granted , if that be Heresie indeed . But how if it be such a zeal as Paul saith the ●ewes had , a zeal , but not according to knowledge ? how if it be such a zeal to God as crucified the Sonne of God ? and such a zeal there hath been , we know . The Iews did much in zeal to Truth , even against Truth .

But you close up with that of the Lords and Commons in an Ordinance , &c.

I am afraid these are such proofs as you intend most in your Presbytery , to make your supplement to Scripture from Authority , and so to make us beleeve what you cannot perswade us to beleeve , and to make it out by an Ordinance what you want by Scripture .

But I hope that honourable Senate will rather let you argue from the Scripture against us then from their Authority .

But I have not to doe here with answering Ordinances of Parliament .

I contend not , but submit to them in every Ordinance for the Lords sake ; nor doth my Argument lie against any thing of theirs , but yours . I dare not undervalue them to count them as Parties , but Iudges in out difference . I appeal to the Parliament , as to Caesar : nor in it a faire proofe of Truth , to draw the Magistrates Sword out of the Scabbard .

You say , You wonder , considering who was ingaged , I would so undervalue them to compare them with Papists and Prelates .

I did consider who was ingaged , a Parliament , &c. and had I not highly valued them , I had not ventured so far in my Quaere . I considered the sad and farall troubles which attended the Magistrates ingagements with the Ministers ; the bloud which hath been powred out by Nationall compulsion of tender consc●e●ces ; and like a spirituall Watchman , I could not but blow my Trumpet , and give warning . And for my comparison or Papists and Prelates , I appeal to the world if there be any reproach ; whether it be not in the Interpreter , rather then in the Author . But I know no such thing by my Paper : And if it be lawfull to draw in consequent conclusions ▪ and then father them , I could prove you to speake Treason , Blasphemy , Idolatry , Atheisme , Heresie , nay , Independencie , which some of your Way thinke worse ▪ A●abaptisme , Separation , which would seeme to be as hatefull to you : But I judge you not in any such sort ; nor had I spoken so far now , but in a just Vindication .

You say , You will conclude with my Politicks ; and upon such Principles as mine , Church-government is ordained .

I have told you my Politicks were written by my dimmer light . And if your Government be built upon no better Principles then mine , I cannot but be out of conceit with that Government , being so far out of conceit with mine own Principles ; and it makes me think the worse of it , because my former Principles fit it so well . Those Principles you speak on are partly of C●vill power and the Sword ; and the Dominion or Scepter in the Gospell , is more Spirituall .

You say of my Text in the Revelation , Revel. 18 ▪ 1. that as I began , so I end , with misapplication of Scripture .

Misapplication is a word sooner writ then proved ; and my reasons were rather crowded then ordered in my Paper .

The Scripture was this : For the Angell that came down from Heaven hath great power , and the earth is lightned with his glory .

Which Scripture there applyed , doth hint to any that will not rather cavill then interpret , that my only reason for delay of Government was in this : An Angell was yet to come with power and glory ; or , the Gospell would fill the earth with more light ; ●o as we should not shut up our selves too soon in the dark .

And now Reader , judge whether it be my mis-application , or his misinterpretation .

Spirituall Principles drawn forth .

Gospell-Truth is one and the same .

THat which is only in some parts of it warrantable by the Word , is not purely , nor in a Scripture-way warrantable : For there is not any Will-worship , but it hath something from the Patern of the true . The Samaritan-worship was coppied after the Jewish ; and the Jewish , when Christ came , had Priests , and Temple , and Sacrifices , and was copied by the Law : But then there was Traditions and Commandements of men . That is pure Gentilism , which hath no Image of Gospell nor l●gall Truth . Antichrist sits in the very Temple of God , though rather upon it . False Christs call themselves Christs as well as the true . The great Image had a head of Gold , though feet of Iron and Clay . Every Heresie hath a Scripture Word in it . But Truth must be all one and the same and Homogeneall ; not in parts so , but all so . There is but one Lord , one Faith , &c.

Prudence and Consequences , are the great Engines of Will-worship .

THings of Prudence meerly , are not to be admitted into the Spirituallway and Gospell-designe . Prelacy had its Prudence for every new additionall in Worship and Government . And once let Prudence open a doore , and then will more of man crowd in , then the 〈…〉 of God can keep out . Nor is that to be admitted , which is so received a Maxime , Though not directly , yet not repugnant to the Word . Christs rule is not such ▪ he opposes any Tradition to the Commandements of God . Not direct from Scripture ▪ is indirect and repugnant , though not to the very letter of such words , yet to the form and Analogie of truth to the generall Scripture-Law , viz. the will of God , that nothing shall be added or diminished ; & ye are only my friends , saith Christ , if ye do what I command you ; and the Lord will raise you up a Prophet , him shall yee heare . For if any thing of Prudence is to be let in , then something of Tradition ; for Prudence can make nothing higher , no● purer , nor better ; m●n can but give his own Image to the things ●e makes himself : though he make them up of divine materials from Scriptures ▪ yet the form none but the Lord himself can give ; and the form is that which stamps Christs Image upon every Truth . Every thing in the Word hath a form ; that is , it is ●uch a thing of truth , and not another . Nothing but Gods power and will can make a thing Truth : his power creates it , and his will creates it such a Truth . Nothing is agreeable to the Will of Christ ▪ but the very Will of Christ . The Will of Christ is the only Legislative power in the Gospell . Nothing is agreeable to his Will but what he wils ; & every thing is repugnant to his will but what he wils : so as this will is the supreme general law , & indeed the very form or essence of Scripture & the Word of God . And whatsoever is devised by Prudence , though upon Scripture-materials , yet being not the work of this will , nor having the Stamp or Image upon it , is none of Christs , but as repugnant as any other Tradition or invention of men .

And here let us look to that new , though old design against Truth , the most subtill , undiscernable , and divinest kind of Will-worship in the world , that which some call Scripture-consequence , an unwholsome word as it hath been used : for under colour of consequence what Conclusions may be promoted ! What may not Reason draw from Scripture , and what may it not fashion like a Truth ? But consider , in Parliament Laws , or Ordinances , or Commissions , is it lawfull to take them and from every part of them to draw out results of our own ? and when there is but one Law , make many subordinate Laws of our own ; and frame Laws out of Laws , and Ordinances out of Ordinances , and Commissions out of Commissions ? No sure : But we must keep to that one , generall , entire , litterall Law and Will of the Parliament . Is it thus in Laws humane , and not much more in Ordinances divine ? Yea , there is the same onenesse , entirenesse , indivisibility , and essentiality of the Truth .

Nor do I here disapprove any Scripture-consequence , if meerly consequent and not formed up into a Law by meere reason ; for then m●n makes Laws from the Laws of God ; and this is not the least engine that Antichrist hath wrought with .

The people are Brethren and Saints in Christs Church ; but in Antichrists , Parishioners and Servants .

WHat kind of Government is marked out in Scriptures for sitting on the waters , or people ? Christ governs by the people ministerially , not over the people authoritatively only ; and the people being once in his Church-way , lose their old capacity for a new , and are raised up from people to Brethren , to Churches . It is a saying of Master Goodwyns , and Master Nye , not so pleasant as true . The Clergie had at first the golden ball of government amongst themselves ▪ and it is not much mended any where , but in that Church where the people have their Interests as well as others ; they are the Clergie properly , a notion which the Ministers got only to themselves till of late : The interest of the people in Christs Kingdom is not only an interest of complyancy ▪ and obedience , and submission ; but of consultation of debating ▪ counselling , prophesying voting , &c. and let us stand fast in that liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free .

Presbytery it self is founded on Principles of separation , which yet they condemn for Schism in other Churches ; nay , is the greatest separation .

WHat is a Presbytery over Congregations or a Congregation , but a Church gathered out of a Church ? Nay , is not that the only Church ; and the remainder of people made but an accessory , or something of another kind ▪ or rather the Nation or Kingdom which is only subject to this power supream ? And though Presbytery be but a Church-gathering , and founded on a Principle of seperation , yet do they not disapprove , and condemn seperation , and semi or halfe-seperation and Church-gathering for Schism , & c ? When their own power is a Schism respectively to the Parishes that are distinct ; and whatever distinction is formed to make them appear as part of their Congregations , yet is it indeed so . Is not their whole power defended to be entirely , essentially , dispensatively in the Presbytery called by themselves the Church , and by the very authority of one whom I name with reverence to his learning and moderation , Master Herle ?

So as I wonder why there should be such envyings , raylings , accusings ▪ dissentings betwixt us that are beleevers , though of severall waies , when as each is principled , founded , administred upon the same ground and way of Schism , seperation , and Church-gathering ; nay , the Presbytery hath more Schism and separation in it then the rest , by how much it is constituted from the people and Brethren , and Acts in its ministration apart too , viz. over the people , rather then with them .

None to be forced under Christs Kingdom , as in the Kingdoms of the world .

IN a Spirituall Government the ignorance of people which some would have for expedition , that they may practically know it , is no Scripture way of knowing : in practicall godlinesse , things must be known before practically known ; and practice is to begin from faith , and faith from knowledge ; else the obedience can be but blind , mixt , and Popish . Indeed in things civill or morall , practice may bring in knowledge , habits may be acquired and gotten by Acts ; a man may grow temperate by practising temperance , and civilly obedient by practising civill obedience ; but it is not so in spirituals there , habits go before acts , spirituall infusions before practices .

Indeed the Laws of States and Kingdoms and Civill Policy , teach men best by ruling them practically ; but it is not so in the Church , men are not to be forced into Christs Kingdom as into the Kingdoms of the world ; the Kings of the Nations exercise their Dominion ; it shall not be so among you .

The power of a formall R●formation in a Government makes it not Christs Government ,

A Government ; though not purely Christs , may be made up of such Scripture and prudentiall materials as may much reform the outward man , even as a meer prudentiall Civill-Government may do , if severely executed . The Romans by how much they excelled other Nations in Laws , so much the more they excelled them in a people reformed , moralized , and civilized ▪ in many Civill States , meerly from their wholsome Policy and administration , excellent and precious flowers spring up , many morall vertues , as prudence , temperance , obedience , meeknesse , love , justice , fortitude : Yet all this makes not a Government to be Christs ; but only that which is meerly the Discipline of Christ , and Policie of Christ . Prelacie in its Primitive time did reforme ; the beast like a lamb , which compelled the Nations to Worship , and made even fire to come down from Heaven , or was religious in the eyes of men , and did miracles ; yet was no true nor heavenly Power neither .

There are certain parts and degrees of Reformation common and communicable with the Government of Christ and other Governments ; but then , there is a forme and Image of Christ in it which no others have , and some certain spirituall operations and workings which exceed the power of all other Governments ; and this makes the difference and puts on the essentiall , true , and individuall forme upon it ; so as in choyce of Governments they are not to be chosen by some Summer - fruit in the outward man , but by the Word and Spirit .

The visible Church or Communion , is the Image of the invisible or mysticall .

THe invisible or mysticall Church is made up of pure living stones ; all is spirituall and yet all not spirituall in the like kind , nor degree ; Jesus Christ the corner stone is both God and man ; and some of his differ in glory as one Star differs from another ▪ and as it is here , in this spirituall , invisible , glorious building ▪ so it is in the outward , visible Communion below , or building here , which is the Image of that above : The Temple here is acording to the Patern there ; and as that is of true , reall , essentially spirituall living stones ; so the Church here is to consist of such as visibly formally , and outwardly appeare so ; and therefore called Saints , and golden Candlesticks , and holy Natio , &c. And though all the materials in this building are to be proportionable , and pure , to make up a representative of the Church above ; yet all is not of one square , and measure , and polishing : some are greater and some lesse ; some Babes and children in Christ ; some smoaking Flax , and bruised Reeds : And as this Church bears the Image of the heavenly ▪ so the mate●●●ll one bore the Image of this : there was p●ne stones , gold , and Cedar ; so as there is room in the Church now for any small stone or the least peece of timber , if it be but lively or squared , if Cedar or Firr● .

How Christ is a King of the Nations , and of the Church , and how an Head .

CHrist is a King to the Nations and to the Church ; nor doth he rule the Nations as the Church , nor the Church as the Nations ; he rules ministerially in his Church and Monarchically in the Nations ; he rules with a gold●n Scepter in his Church with an iron Rod in the Nations : Nor doth Christ rule as the Kings of the Nations , who finding people rude , barbarous , uncivill , subdue them into obedience and civility ; but so doth not Christ in his Church , that we know on ; the dispen●ation of his Word ( not of the Government ) first ●ubdues .

And it is true ▪ Christ is an Head , but not an Head to every body ; he will have a body proportionable to his Head both here and hereafter , in earth as well as in heaven ; he is a pure , holy , glorious Head in his Gospel-dispensation , and will have a body sutable pure .

Not only is the visible body of Christ thus pure , but every truth of Christ bears the Image of Christ ; every truth of his hath something of himself in it who is Truth it self ; I am the Truth saith Christ ; every beam of light is light ; every truth is a sparkle of truth it self . Thus we may judge of truth by what of Christ we see in it . They who break a Chrystall , may see their face in every pe●●e and parcell : so in every thing of Christ there is an Image of Christ , either of his purity , or holinesse , or love , or humility ▪ or meeknesse ▪ &c.

The Presbyteriall Government , and the Worlds , of the same equall Dominion .

WHat kind of Church-government is that , which will set up it selfe with the Civill and State-government , even co-ordinate with it , if not to the ruling and tutoring of it ? which hath as large a Dominion as the other ? which is as full , as ample , as high , and as supream ? which no lesse territorie then a Kingdome will serve , then a whole Nation ? Mu●● Christs Government be just as large as the worlds , which Government affects Dominion ? which brings in whole Nations under the Scepter of it ? This , or that little one in the Scripture , which sits downe sometimes in a house , to the Church in thy house ; sometimes in a City as Corinth , and over a few there , to the Church in Corinth , in a Countrey , not over a Countrey ; to the seven Churches in Asia , not to the Church of Asia , or the Church Asia , a Church a fourth part of the world . Sure if this Nationall and comprehensive Church were the patern we should walk by , Why did not Christ begin first at Kings and Princes , and so bring Nations and Kingdomes , and make Churches of them ? But we see no such thing , he begins lower , at the base and weake , and foolish , and few ; and raises up his Kingdome from the bottome of the world , and not from the top or pinacle of Princes , Kingdomes , and Nations .

The Nationall , and Congregationall Church-covenant , both lawfull , or both unlawfull .

HOw can a Church-covenant be unlawfull , if the Nationall-covenant be warrantable ? and why doe any plead against that , who are for this ? A Covenant is condemned in the Congregationall Church , and yet commended in the Nationall . Now , How can a Church-covenant be both true and false ? Is a great Church-covenant lawfull , and a little one unlawfull ? a Nationall Church-covenant warrantable ▪ and a Congregationall unwarrantable ? But Covenant● in their nature were a dispensation more of the Ol● Testamen● ▪ strain ; a Nationall Church had a Covenant to gather them up into their Nationall way of worship , and were under the Laws of an externall Pedagog●● ; and now the spirituall dispensation being come , even the Gospell of Iesus Christ , there is a fulnesse of spirit let out upon the Saints and people of God , which gather them up more closely , spiritually , and cordally , then the power of any former dispe●sation could : the very Covenant of God himself , of which the former were typicall and Propheticall , comes in nakedly upon the spirits of his , and drawes them in , and is a law upon their inward parts , sweetly compelling in the consciences with power , and yet not with force ; with compulsion , and yet with consent ; and surely where this Covenant of God hath its kindly and spirituall operation , there would need no such externall supplement as before ; but because of the hardnesse of our hearts , it is thus , from the beginning it was not so ; the spirit tyed up thousands together then .

Let States then have any prudentiall security , any designe of sound wisdome , to consora●e people together ; but let the Church only be gathered up by a Law of a more glorious and transcendent nature , by the pure Covenant of God himsel● , with the souls of his .

We receive and give out Truth by parts .

MEn are to be judged and followed according to the degrees of light they receive ; and if any have some light , that light is not to be used as an advantage to all their other darknesse , as if all their darknesse might passe under that one beame of light . The light rises upon the Prophets , as the Sun upon the Earth ; it is dawning and morning , and noon with them . Thus came the Gospell ; Iohn preached Repentance , Iesus Christ Faith and Repentance ; Iohn came with Water , Christ with the Spirit , and first in Parables , and after in power : the Apostles they knew first Christ for Messiah ; then , that he should suffer and die , and rise againe , and then the Kingdome of God . Luther knew first that Indulgences were unwarrantable ; and after , that Popery was Antichristianism , and Rome was Babylon , and works could not justifie ; and after , conscience was not to be compelled in spirituals . Thus we grow from Faith to Faith , to the fulnesse of stature in Christ , to a perfect man in him , growing with the increasings of God : The Kingdome of God is like a little leven , like a grain of mustard seed . So as while we see but things in degrees , we are neither to be too sudenly admired by others , nor our selves .

All Covenanters are bound to contribute to Religion as well as State .

WHosoever hath Covenanted , is bound to assist the Publike to his utmost in every Condition , and Calling and Place , and Way accordingly , from naturall abilities to his relations , from one relation to another , even to all ▪ to that of Christian and Spirituall ; his Prayers , Counsell , Notions , with Countributions of all sorts ▪ Civill , Naturall , Temporall , Spirituall ▪ He is bound by Covenant to discover malignity in State , in Church ; enemies to God as well as man ; endeavours to any thing of Popery and Prelacy , under what visage , habit , form of Words , of Doctrine , Discipline , be it Presbytery , or whatever , if repugnant to the Word of God , as we are perswaded in conscience who have personally Covenanted . The breathings and speakings of the Spirit , are not to be quenched : Every season is for the Lords service ; in season and out of season : Watchman , watchman , what of the night ? The Spirit is powred upon sons and daughters . Synods of men are not infallible : Not because more men , more of the Spirit . The liberty of the subject is that of soule as well as body ; and that of soul more deare ▪ precious , glorious , The liberty wherein Christ hath made us free . Be not ye then the servants of men in the things of God .

We are to try Truth , and so receive it in its Degrees .

ENquiries for Truth ought to be according to Scripture-rule ; and that rule lights us on to the triall of all things , and proving spirits , and judging between the precious and the vile . The water that is mingled with the wien , the Tares with the Wheat , will require sound tryall , lest we make but an exchange of one Error for another . The Apostles waited for the Spirit , the Bereans searched the Word : we are bidden to trie and prove . The Prophecies of seducers , false Christs , Antichrist , with lying wonders , are as reall cautions given out by the Spirit . The examples of former Ages , Luther , &c. were enlightned by degrees . Angels , who see by vision , see but as God reveales ; much lesse men who take in Truths by spirituall reasoning , as well as revelation . Arise , why tariest thou , is a Text only for him who had such a Vision as Paul to obey by ; and such a Vision as Ananias had to Preach by .

No Church-way INDEPENDENCIE .

THe Beleevers for the Church-way falsly called Independents , they hold on Christ for a spirituall Head , on the Magistrate for their civil Head , on the Body of Christ above and below in the communion of Saints here : their Dependency is spirituall , Ministeriall , communicative ; not Classicall , Provinciall , Nationall : Their power is for one another , not over one another . They cannot mingle or embody with those in a Way not of Truth . Their separation is not from men but manners ; not from beleevers themselves , but their practices and corruptions . Nor go they out but they are called out : Come out of her , my people ▪ &c. And thus the Jews were Independent to the Nations , the Christians to the Jews , the Reformed to the Papists , the Non-conformists to the Prelaticall , and these to the Non-conformists .

A spirit of Love and Meeknesse becomes Beleevers .

THey that write not as enemies , are likely to prove better friends to the Truth , because they raise not so much dust with their striving as others , to blind one anothers sight . Those spirits which cast men sometimes into the fire , sometimes into the water , are not from Christ ; it were happy the Lord would cast out those , and let a more Gospell-spirit walke amongst us ; we might then sooner attaine to that of the Apostle , To walke by the same rule so far as we have attained together , till the Lord reveale and the stronger to beare with the weake ; and to please one another to edification , rather then our selves , in all things wherein the Lord may not be displeased in the way of his dispensation . I know no advantages we have got , but the reviling our selves before our enemies as well as one another . And oh ! why do we tell it Gath , and publish it in the streets of Askalon , to make the uncircumcised triumph ? Was the Lord in the wind , or in the fire , or in the still small voyce , when he spake to the Prophet ? only in the still voyce . How was the Lord heard in the time of his Indignation ? Man heard the voyce of the Lord God walking in the garden in the coole of the day . Oh! could we find out the coolest times to speake and write one to another in , and not in the heat of the day , as we do .

When a State-conscience is fully perswaded ; doubtfull , and so sinning .

IT is with a Publike or State-conscience , as it is a personall or particular conscience : What is done , must be done in Faith , or else there is weaknesse , doubting , and sin . Now where there is not a full consent and perswasion from the Word of faith , there cannot be faith properly , and where there is not a Word of faith for that Conscience to be grounded upon , there cannot be a purely and spiritually full perswasion . And one may question whether in spirituals , as in Civils , Votes and Voyces are to make Laws ; for in the Gospell we find that Divine Laws have their subsistance there , without the Vote of any : and that is only to be a Law or Truth in the Church and Kingdom of Saints , not what is so in the co●mon consent or voyce , but what is a Law in the very Gospell-truth of it . If the Laws of truth were founded as the Laws of Civill-States ▪ in a meere Leg●slative power ; then Popery hath had as good assurance as any ; they have had most v●ces , most Counsels : and so Arrian●sm , when the world went after it .

Post-script . The Testimony of Salmasius , the approved German writer of the Presbyteriall way and employed by the States of Holland to write .

THat the Baptism in the name of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , is not that way of Baptism practised by the Apostles .

The Baptisme of Apostolicall use and institution ▪ is in the Rivers not with invocation of the three Persons , seeing the Apostles Baptized only in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ .

In his owne Latine thus .

Baptisma in aquis perennibus Apostolici instituti & moris sed non invocatio Trinitatis super Baptizatum , cum Apostli in solo nomine Iesu Baptizarent .

Salmasius in apparatu ad libros de primatu papae , fol. 193.

Salmasius his Testimony against the present Presbyteriall-way .

DUobus modis ha● Independentia ecclesiarum accipi potest , si vel respectum non habeant ad vicinas ullas ecclesias , aut si non pendeant ab authoritate aliquot Ecclesiarum simul in unam Classem vel Synodum conjunctarum cujus conventus partem & ipsae faciant . Prior modus similior reperitur primitivae ecclesiae praxi , consue●udini ac usui , quo voluntaria haec 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 et communio inter ecclesias fuit : Posterior magis convenit eum instituto quod postea juris humani dispositione introductum est .

Hoc posteriore modo l●ber●as particularium ecclesiarium magis immmuta videtur quam priore .

Sed quod ab initio fuerit voluntatis , postea factum est juris .

Et hoc jus sane ▪ positivum , atque ecclesiasticum humanumque ▪ non divinum The begin●● of his Post-●●● p● witnesses to page ●3 . Exception 4. juris est quidem divini , ut una si● ecclesia christi , unitas autem ejus non gregalium aut concorporal●um plurium adunata collectione consistat , sed in fidei ac doctrin● unanimi consensione .

Pag. 265 , 266 ▪ in apparatu .

In English thus :

THis Independency of Churches may be taken two waies ; Either as not having respect to any neighbour Churches , or as not depending on the authority of ●ome Churches that are joyned in some Classis or Synod , of which the Churches themselves may make a pa●t ▪ The former way is found to be more like the practise , custome , and use of the Primitive Church , whereby this voluntary communion was among th● Churches . The latter way doth more agree with the institution which afterwards was introduced by a humane authority .

By this latter way the liberty of particular Churches seem to be l●sse diminished then by the former .

But that which from the beginning was arbitrary afterwards is made necessary [ as a Law . ] This Law truly is positive and ecclesiasticall a●d humane , not divine . 'T is ●y a divine Law that the Church of Christ should be one , but the unity of it doth not consist in the union [ o● collection ] of many that are of the ●ame flock or body , but in the unanimous consent agreement in faith and doctrine .

Page 65 66. in apparatu .

FINIS .

THese Groanes for Liberty , out of Smectymnuus his owne mouth , I approve to be printed .

Feb. 27. 1645. IOHN BACHILER .

If any are ignorant who this Smectymnuus is ,

Stephen Marshall

Edmund Calamy

Thomas Young can tell you .

Matthew Newcomen

William Spurstow

GROANES FOR LIBERTY . PSESENTED From the Presbyterian ( formerly Non-conforming ) Brethren ; reputed the ablest and most learned among them , in some Treatises called Smectymnuus , to the high & Honorable Court of Parliament , in the yeare 1641 , by reason of the Prelates Tyranny .

Now awakened and presented to themselves in the behalfe of their Non-conforming Brethren . WITH A BEAM of LIGHT , discovering a way to Peace . ALSO , SOME QUAERES For the better understanding of Mr. Edwards last Book called GANGRENA . With a PARALLEL between the PRELACY and PRESBYTERY .

By JOHN SALTMARSH Preacher of the Gospell .

Mat. 18. 32 , 33. I forgave thee all that debt because thou desiredst me ; Shouldst no thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant , even as I had pity on thee ?

LONDON , Printed for Giles Calvert , at the black spread-Eagle at the West end of Pauls , 1646.

TO THE HONOVRABLE , THE Knights , Citizens , & Burgesses of the House of COMMONS In PARLIAMENT . Honourable ,

I Here present you with some Notions of the Brethren of the Presbyterian Way , which were presented to your HOUSE some foure or five yeares since ; wherein they doe in much strength and piety , as it seems to me , open the way and secrets of Spirituall Tyranny , and Conscience-yoaks ; there is some occasion now of reminding the Brethren of these , because the straine of their preaching and printing seemes to have forgotten these principles : Spirituall ▪ Yo●ks and Burdens being taken off from us ( through the hand of God upon ye ) the memory of them seems to be gone off too from some ; some have forgotten that they were strangers in the Land of Egypt ; the Lord hath seemed to forgive the formerly Nonconforming Brethren all their debt , because they desired him : And now the Question is , Whether they should have compassion on their fellow servants as he had pity on them ?

The Controversie now before ye , is of all your Faithfull ones , and therefore it cals for the tenderst judgement : Fathers may better beat servants then children out of doores ; the one sort ●● I mistake not ) contend that they may rule with ye ▪ the oth●●●●●t they may be ruled by ye in the things of your owne Kingdome and in that of the Kingdome of God , that Iesus Christ may rule both ye and them : how just , how spirituall , this latter plea is , will appeare from the choycest Reasonings of some in reputation with ye , which I have awakened .

The things I present ye , I would not presume to make too positive , because I would not conclude a wisdome of your latitude under any notion of mine , ( though I see private men take too much liberty in that way towards ye ) though it is your indulgence not to know it .

I here present ye things only to be considered , to be quaered , in the behalf of truth , and the advancement of your State , to which I am covenanted ; and I am the bolder and freer , having sold something that I had for that pearle , for which we are bidden to sell all : I shall adde some Considerations here to the rest :

1. Consider whether under Popery the mystery of the Nationall Priesthood was not rather held up by the power of Princes and States , then States themselves by such a way of power ; and whether the mystery of the Nationall Ministery be not rather held up by the power of States now , then the States themselves in such a way of power ; and then , whether all the Pretences and Consequences to draw● in States and Kingdomes for the Churches interest ( if clearly discussed ) be not rather a way of Antichristian mystery ▪ then of zeale to Religion , or the power of Magistracy ?

2. Consider whether in the Kingdome of Jesus Christ any other Scepter should be lifted up then that golden one of his own , and whether if there be a Kingdom of God , if Iesus Christ be the Lawgiver , and the Spirit of of Christ the interpreter of those Laws , and this Kingdom of God within the throne of that King of Kings , and Lord of Lords the Lord Iesus , any other power should rule , any other Scepter ▪ any other Laws , or any other sit down in that Throne , which is only the Throne of the Son of David ▪ whose Throne is for ever , the Scepter of whose Kingdom is an everlasting Scepter ?

3. Consider whether there be not an Heathenish or Gentilish world , and an Antichristian world , or a world of many called Christians and beleevers in Christ , and yet a Church of Christ which is neither of these ; and if so , whether is all this Kingdom of England that Church of Christ , or not rather much of it that part of the Antichristian world , over which one part of the mystery of iniquity hath sat long , and is yet upon it ? And if so , then is there not room in England both for Presbyteriall Churches , and Believers of other waies to live in that part of this Kingdom which is the world , and not that Church ? And if so , ye may be rich in people , rich in peace , rich in the praises of the people of God . Honourable , go on to do worthy things ▪ for our Nation , as worthy things have been done by you ▪ and may ye be as the wings of a Dove covered with Silver , and her feathers with yellow Gold .

So praies , Your humble faithfull Servant , IOHN SALTMARSH .

To the Reverend Divines of the Presbyteriall way . Brethren ,

THese are the sig hings of some of your own spirits under Episcopacy , under the Tyranny of that government . O how acute and sensible were your Iudgements and Consciences then of the usurpation , dominion , imposed Formes , when you were the sufferers ! but now that your Brethren are become the Non-conformists to you , as you were Non conformists to the Prelates ; and you the imposers , and your Brethren the sufferers ; I find times and conditions are forgotten , and yoakes are called for which neither we nor our fathers were able to beare . I see by your printings and preachings the working of new dispositions in you , and Symptomes of something like Dominion and Persecution ; surely Brethren your crying out thus for the civill power to help you or all is undon , is a sign you trust not to the Gospel strength , nor truth of you● way , but to the arme of flesh . Methinks of late your Sun is turning into darknesse and blacknesse over us , and your Moon into bloud : is it possible that yoakes , burthens , whips , prisons , banishments , can be soon forgotten ? Can Saints like naturall men see their faces in a glasse , and so soon forget what manner of men they were ?

I have reasoned with you in your own arguments ; I hope your own arguments may find accesse to your spirits when ours cannot ; men are sooner perswaded by their own reason then anothers . O that the same sounding of bowels may be heard in you to your Brethren , that ye wished to heare in others who were once your task-masters ! What Joseph said in his affliction , we shall say to you , Think on us I pray you when it sh●ll be well with you , and shew kindnesse ; for it may be as Mordecai said , ye are come to the Kingdom for such a time as this ; if not , enlargement and deliverance shall arise from another place .

IOHN SALTMARSH .

GROANES FOR LIBERTY .

1. Divisions ought to be no prejudice to the Truth . BVt he upbraids us with our Divisions and Subdivisions , and so doe the See the ministers Book called Smeetymnuus presented to the Parliament , sect 18. printed 1641. Papists upbraid the Protestants with their Lutheranisme , Calvinisme , and Zuinglianisme ; and this is that the Heathens objected to the Christians , their fractures were so many they knew not which Religion to chuse if they should turne Christians . And can it be expected , that the Church in any age should be free from Divisions , when the times of the Apostles were not free , and the Apostle tels us it must needs be that there be Divisions ? In Greg. Nazian. his daies there were sixe hundred errours in the Church ; do these any waies ●erogate from the truth and worth of Christian Religion . Quaere .

1. Whether are not Divisions and Subdivisions objected now to all that are dissenting Brethren from the present wa● of Church-government ? and whether are Divisions any more scandall to Religion now then before ?

2. Whether is Independancy , Anabaptism , Brownism , Seekers , of more evill report now ▪ then Lutheranism , Calvinism , Zuinglianism formerly ?

3. Whether is an hundred and eighty opinions , as some would reckon Mr. Edwards . them , more to be cast in the face of Religion now , then sixe hundred in the daies of Nazianzen ?

4. Whether is this faire dealing for Brethren to make Apologies for divisions and severall opinions when they are oppressed , and to turne back in accusations upon their Brethren when the oppression is off from themselves ?

2 Stinted Formes not to be imposed . The validity of which plea your Honours are best able to judge ; and therefore See the same Smect . sect. 2. we leave it at your Barre : Yet these two things w● know , first that this forme viz. of Liturgie , was never established to be so punctually observed , so rigorously pressed to the casting out of all that scruple it , or any thing in it . Quaere .

1. If former Liturgies were never established to be so punctually observed , why is there such pressing now for establishment of Formes , now to be observed in Worship and Discipline ? seeing the former Divines walkt as they thought by as true a light then , as the Divines of this age do now ?

2. If Synods did not formerly establish things for such punctuall observations , why are there any penalties , fines , imprisonments called for now , upon non-conformity to things established by them ?

3. Why are the formes composed now so rigorously pressed , Vniformity so urged , when such practices and designes were condemned but a few yeers since ? and they who urge it now , would scarce then seem to beleeve it to be the mind of former Synods and Parliaments ?

4. If things were not to be rigorously pressed then to the casting out of any that scruple , why now ?

3. No Formes of Particular men to be imposed on all the rest . But if by Lyturgy he understand prescribed and stinted formes of administration , See Smect . sect. composed by some particular men in the Church , and imposed upon all the rest ( as this we must understand , or else all he saith is nothing ; ) we desire and expect th●● those Formes which he saith are yet extant , and ready to be produced , might once appeare . Quaere .

1. If Formes composed by particular men be not to be imposed on all the rest , why do the Brethren now urge upon us all and upon all the Kingdome , their owne Uniformity and Formes , since theirs is no more a Truth to others then others Formes were formerly a Truth to them ?

2 Whether one Synod of Divines is not as well a few ( ● ) compared 2 A some . with all the rest of the Kingdom as another Synod ? and the same that were but a few (2) sixe yeers since , or sixty yeers since ▪ but a few (3) still , unlesse 2 Or some . 3 Or some . the same numbers and accounts alter by yeers and seasons ? and if so what reason is there ●on ones imposing more then anothers , since Truth is no more to be reckoned by multitudes and Synods in one age , then in another ?

4. No binding to the use of composed Formes . All other Reformed Churches , though they use Liturgies , yet do not bind See Smect . Quaere . Ministers to the use of them . Quaere .

1. Why doe any Reformed Churches now undertake to bind any to the use of their Formes , seeing the Churches formerly durst not usurp it ? and why under penalties now more then before ?

2. Whether is that lawfull now which was not foure yeers since , and for these Brethren to do , which was unlawfull for their Predecessors ?

5. Severe imposing ▪ a sin and a snare . That which makes many refuse to be present at our Church service , is not only See the same Quaere . the Liturgie it selfe , but the imposing it upon Ministers . Quaere .

1. If imposing of Formes was a snare before , how comes it to be none now ?

2. If Ministers were not to be compelled then , why are they to be compelled now ?

6. Liberty in use of Formes breeds no disturbance .

Object . If it be objected that this will breed divisions and disturbances in the Se● the same Quaere . 2. Churches unlesse there be a uniformity .

Ans. It hath not bred any disturbance in other Reformed Churches .

Why should the free liberty of using or not using breed mo●e confusion then the liberty of reading or not reading Homilies , especially when Minsters shall teach people not to condemn one another in things indifferent .

Quaere .

1. How comes it to passe that liberty in the use of Formes bred no disturbances before , and yet now all is pretended to be undone if uniformity be not preserved

2. Why are Divines more jealous of conscientious and in offensive liberty now , that the Government is comming into their own hands , then when it was in their Predecessours ?

3. If Brethren are not to condemn one another in things indifferent , why do they teach now a Persecution to all that conform not to things indifferent only , but unlawfull , as all parts in Worship and Government are , which are Devices of men ?

7. No set Formes for the first 300. years . For Christian Liturgies which the Remonstrant had affirmed to have been See Smect . ● sect. 2. the best improvement of the peace and happinesse of the Evangelical Church ever since the Apostles times , we challenge the Remonstrance , setting aside those that are confessedly spurious , to produce any Liturgie that was the issue of the first 300. Yeeres . Quaere .

1. If solemn and set-formes and Directores were excepted against , and accused then as no friends to the peace and happinesse of Churches , why are they made now the choycest meanes of peace and unity , and all those Churches condemned as erronious that are without them ?

2. If no set-formes can be produced as the issue of the first 300. yeers , why are they continued still , * * Viz. in the worship no● Sect. ●● . which hath neither precept from Scriptures , nor president from Apostles or Primitive practice to warrant them ? why are the crimes and will-worship of fore-fathers condemned by their children , yet afterwards taken up ? the fathers eate sowre grapes , and the childrens teeth are set on edge .

8. Things that even offend Anabaptists are to be removed . It is under carefull hands , and hearts more mercifull , viz. the Parliament , See Smect . sect. ● . then this Remonstrant is ( to remit troubled consciences to no better cure then Mr , Fishers Book ) who we hope will do by those as the Helvetians did by somethings that were stumbled at amongst them , though there were none but Anabaptists that stumbled at them , yet the State did by Authority remove them , and Zuinglius their pofessed adversary gives them thanks for occasioning the removall . Quaere .

1. Why may not the Brethren look for better cure to their troubled consciences from the State now , then from some of their Brethren , because the hands and hearts of the State have appeared more carefull , more mercifull then some of them ? the Priests and Levits walke by , while the good Samaritans comfort the wounded .

2. If the State of the Helvetians would not offend the very Anabaptists , but remove the scandall : why should any State now be set on and inflamed not only to offend , but persecute them ; not only Anabaptists as they are called , but all other their Brethren that dissent ? If States are commended then for being so tender , why are they preached now into severity , wrath , revenge and tender troubled consciences made the only trouble ?

9. Rigour makes Separatists . But we think , nay we know that some few Prelates by their over-rigorous See Smect . sect. 2. pressing have made more Separatists then all the Preachers dis-affected to Ceremonies in England . Quaere .

1. If it hath appeared formerly that rigorous imposings have occasioned Separation , why do they now cry out of so many Separatists , and not look up to themselves ? Why do they beat their fellow servants out of doores , and then cry out of their running away ?

2. Why is not persecution and imposing more forborne by the Brethren now , when they have found it the cause of their owne Separation formerly ?

3. Why do they cry out of Separatists , when they see Separatists have not so much made themselves so as they have been made so by others , and they have been rather driven away , then they have drawn away themselves ? Why do they cry out of Separation , when they force them into corners first , if they would have the communion of their Brethren more , why make they not their persecution lesse , and their offences in Worship and Government lesse ?

10. Burthens to Churches to be removed . In the meane we blesse God who hath put into the hearts of others into See Smect . sect. 2. whose hands he hath concredited the work to judge more wisely , and consider more mercifully , and to professe in the hearing of some of us , they would willingly part with that which was indifferent to themselves , if they were but truly informed it was offensive to others , according to that of Gregory , those customes which are known to bring any burthens upon the Churches , it becomes us to consider of the removing of them . Quaere .

1. Why may not the State too be petitioned by their people now of tender Consciences , to the same temper of tendernesse and mercy to them , that the Brethren then desired for themselves ? Whether are those good neighbours that would have it raine only in their own Gardens , and the Sun to shine only on their own blossoms and have peace only in their own dwellings , and their neighbour Towns running with bloud ?

2. Were the times of Non-conformists then times only for removing burdens from Churches , and the times of Non-conformists now times of burdening Churches ?

11. Mens devices ought not to hinder preaching . This is just as our Bishops were wont to do , who give a full power to a See Smect . sect. 87. Presbyter at his Ordination to preach the Gospell with a charge to do it , yet will not suffer him to preach no not in his own cure without a Licence . Quaere .

1. When any then was gifted and called to preach the Gospell and Licenses were complained on to hinder , why are there any other waies devised against the liberty of the Gospell now ? as uniformity , &c.

2. Were Licenses chaines and fe●ters to the glorious and free spirit ? And are internogatories and ●uestions at times of Ordination and admission about Anti-Paedo-Baptisme , Antinomianism now no restraints nor devices to the same purpose , is this to rejoyce that Christ is preached , howsoever , nay is not this to forbid him because he follows not with us ?

12. Mens inventions to set up jus Divinum to advance Government . They that have studied to advance the Babel of Episcopacy , have endeavoured See Smect . sect 87. to underpin it with some Texts of Scripture , that they might plead a jus divinum for it . Quaere .

1. Was it unlawfull , and politick in some to underpin Episcopacy with some Texts of Scriptures , and so to get up a ●us divinum for it ? and is it not as unlawfull to set up another Forme that is not purely of God , underpinned with Texts of Scripture for a jus divinum , or divine right as some would have had it ?

13. Oath ex officio an unlawfull engine . We desire to see further how abominable this Oath is , how cryed down by The same Sm● sect. ●6 . learned men , how contrary to the Word of God , the Law of nature , to the Civill and Cannon Laws , and to the Statutes of our Kingdom , he may find in Mr. Parker . Quaere .

1. Was it so contrary to the Word of God , to all Civill and Common Laws , and the Law of our own Kingdom to extort from men Consciencesecrets ; then of what kind are all Formes of posing , examining , interogating to find out the opinions of those who are to preach in any Congregation ?

14. When Presbyters grow as tyrannous as Bishops they are to suffer . But if the Presbyters should be as generally corrupted as Bishops now are , have as much strength to suppresse the Gospell and promote Popery , as the Bishops by their supream power have , and if they can bring no more evidence of divine institution then Bishops can , and are of no more necessity to the Church then Bishops are let the function suffer . Quaere .

May not the very thing be more feared and presumed by us now , from some late experiments of them viz. that the Presbyters may grow strong to suppresse the Gospell , and tyronnous &c. and may be corrupted , as Bishops formerly , as well as they might prophesie this of themselves ? Caiaphas thought as little of Christ when he said , one should dye for the people , as some Presbyters thought of suppressing the Gospell themselves , and suffering for it , when they wrote thus against Bishops and Presbyters .

15. Change of words in Religion an ill signe ▪ We find that the late Innovators which have so much disturbed the peace and purity of our Church , did first be●in with alterations of words ; and the Apostle exhorts us to hold fast the forme of sound words , 2 Tim 1. 13. and avoyd prophane novelties of words . Quaere .

1. If the change of words be so dangerous , and unwholsome Formes , and so condemned before ▪ why are unwarrantable words taken up again , as Classicall Provinciall , Nationall , Triers , Directories , which are no more Formes of wholsome , nor Scripture words ?

16. Repro●ches ●o Arguments . If confident slightings and scornfull den●als be sufficient answers to us and our arguments , never any man hath better defended Episcopacy , or more strongly confuted those that oppose it . Quaere .

If confident sleightings ▪ &c. were counted no sufficient answers from the Prelates to the Presbyters , why are Presbyters sleightings counted so sufficient arguments for their Dissenting Brethren now ? and if to raile be to reason , and to revile be to refute ; Mr. Edwards and some of his brethren have as strongly confuted us , as the Prelates did formerly them .

17. Prelates impropriate Orthodox . In impropriating to the same party the praise of Orthodox , as if to speak See Smect . Epist. a word or think a thought against them were no lesse Heresie , then it was in former times to speak against the Popes Supremacy , or the Monks fat belly . Quaere .

1. It it were so ill taken by the Presbyters then , that the Prelates impropriated the name Orthodox : how may it be taken now by all the rest who are cast out as Hereticks and Schismaticks , while they walke abroad cloathed only in the name of Orthodox Divines ?

2. If the Popes Supremacy and the Monks fat belly , and the Prelates could not beare a word nor a thought against them ; are not some Divines working for a supremacy and a reuenue , against which it may prove as great a crime to speake .

18. All not of their opinion are factious . Sure the man thinks he hath obtained a Monopoly of Learning , and Smect . sect. 3. all knowledge is loct up in his bosome , and not only Knowledge but Piety and peaceablenesse too ; for all that are not of his opinion must suffer , either as weak or factious if he may be their judge . Quaere .

1. Whether do not they who hold all other in Schisme and Heresie , and a company of Mechanicks who conforme not to them , conceive they have the Monopoly of Learning as once the Prelates did : and who are these now ?

2. Whether do not they who look on their Brethren that dissent as Troub●ers , Factious , Schismaticall ; cenceive all Piety and peaceablenesse to be lockt up in their own bosomes : and who are they ? and who are the weake and factious if they may be judges ?

19. Prelates pathes causes of Divisions . It is no wonder , concerning the pathes our Prelates have trod , that there See Sect. 18. are divisions in the Nation ; the wonder is the Divisions are no more , no greater . Quaere .

If the usurpation , Tyranny , Persecution of the Prelates , were reckoned for the supreme division makers in the Kingdom , when the Non-conformists were the only Separatists ; Why do they not find out some other or such like cause now , in some other place , rather then amongst their dissenting Brethren themselves , whom they now only accuse of division and faction ? but this is the difference of being Parties and Iudges , we naturally spie out faults furthest from our selves .

20. Where is the Church of England ? We desire him to tell us what the Church of England is , for it doth not please Sect. the same him that we should call the Convocation the Church of England , much lesse the Bishops or Archbishops . Quaere .

It was so hard to find out the Church of England in the Prelates dayes , surely it is hard to find it out now ; then it seemes neither Synod , Bishops , nor Archbishops were the Church . Then Quaere , where is the Church now ? not in the Assembly , they are but consulting how to build the Church ; not in the Presbytery , for that is a Church unbuilt yet ; not among the Paris●es , they are not Scripture-Churches or Congregations as the same Smectymnuus sayes ; then where is the Church of England ?

21. The name of Church is the Gorgons-Head . But these Episcopall men deale as the Papists that dazle the eyes , and astonish Smect . sect. 17. the senses of poore people with the glorious name of the Church , the Church , the holy mother the Church ; this is the Gorgons-Head that hath inchanted them and held them in bondage to their errours ; all their speech is of the Church , the Church ; no mention of the Scriptures of God the Father , but all of the mother the Church . Quaere .

1. If the name of Church then , the Mother-Church , the Church was such a Gorgons-Head by which Prelates as well as Papists inchanted thousands of people to beleeve : why is that very thing or device taken up in another forme to inchant with still , viz. The Church of England , the Orthodox Churches , the Reformed Churches ?

2. If the Church Mother was so much spoken on before , and the Scriptures so little ? why is not the Church of England the Reformed Churches , the Orthodox Churches and Divines lesse spoken on , and the Scriptures more ?

22. An ill Custome to say Church of England and Conformity . It hath been the custome of late times to cry up the holy mother the Church Sect. the same of England , to call for absolute obedience to holy Church , full conformity to the orders of holy Church , neglecting in meane time God the Father and the holy Scriptures . Quaere .

If it hath been the unwarrantable custome of late times to cry up the Church of England , and absolute obedience to the Church , and confor●●●● , why is this custome still kept up ? conformity , obedience , and uniformity as much called for still , as before ? why is not the word more spoken on , and the Reforme● Church lesse ? why is not free Christian liberty , peaceable forb●arance of each others differing opinions , and practices in unity , more heard among us , and obedience , conformity , and uniformity lesse ?

23. To call Schismaticks and Hereticks the Bishops practice . Only there is one practice of our Bishops , that is their casting out unconforming Sect. the same . Brethren commonly known in their Court language by the name of Schismaticks and Hereticks . Quaere .

1. If the Bishops did practice the casting out the Non-conforming Brethren , w●itner ought any such practice to be taken up by the Non-conforming Brethren against Brethren now not Conforming to them ?

2. If all the Non-conforming Brethren were in their Court-language Hereticks and Schismatick , whether ought not such names to be sent packing to Court again , rather then taken up by the same Brethren , who were so much called so themselves , Hereticks and Schismaticks , that they have taken it up against others ?

24. Heresies and Schism harsh words . But we had hoped the refusall of the use of a Ceremony , should never have See Sect. the same . been equalized in the punishment either to Heresie or Schisme . Quaere .

If you hoped that the refusall of a Ceremony would not have been punished with Heresie and Sc●ism from Bishops , may not your Brethren hope much more from you , that their dissenting from you in things of outward Cognizance and Form , as Church Order and Baptism , would not be so branded for Heresie and Schisme by you ( who glory in a more Gospell-way ) as as you were branded yourselves of late ?

25. Heavie censures for Non-conformity . I am sure above the crime of the Remonstrant , Non-conforming Brethren , See Smect . sect. 13. who are unsetled in poynts of a meane difference ( which their usuall language knowns by no better● terme then Schismaticks and factions ) yet even such as have fallen under the heaviest censures of Excommunication , deprivation , suspentio● , &c. Quaere .

1. Why was it such a crime to count any Schismaticks and factious , under Prelacy ? and why is it now under Presbytery matter of just report against others ?

2. If Excommunications , Deprivations ▪ Suspensions , &c. were esteemed so burdensome and cruell ? then why are Fines , Penalties , and imprisonments , so much preached for now ? why do not the Brethren of the Presbyteriall way , thinke it as hard for the Magistrates to aflict their Brethren , as they thought it hard in the Prelates to afflict themselves ?

26. No Presbyters to be Ambitious . Neither in any of his writings the least intimation of superiority of one Sect. the same Presbyter over another save only where he names Diotrephes as one ambitiously affecting such Supremacy . Quaere .

If none but such as Diotrephes is observed in Scripture for affecting Supremacy , and Superiority , and if one Presbyter cannot be found affecting place above other Presbyters in opposition to Bishops ; then how is it cleared , that a Presbyter may be supreame to a whole Church or Congregation : and that it is not as much Superiority for some few Presbyters to affect being above many Saints together in one Church , as for one in name or office as a Bishop , to affect place above another in name or office as a Presbyter , and so Episcopacy be as warrantable as Presbytery , and both alike unwarrantable ?

A Beame of Light to discover a way to the peace both of CHURCH and STATE . By way of Considerations .

Consid. 1.

LEt it first be considered where the great obstructions lie against Liberty or Tolleration of Brethren of severall waies , and if it may not be found to be in these things ;

1. A taking the whole Kingdom of England for the Church of England , and so setting up the National Magistracy of Israel in the Nation now as it was then , which how it may be warranted , would be well considered .

2. A jealousie how to preserve the present Ecclesiasticall Interest without the choycest power of the Magistrate to help it , which if well observed , makes it appeare to be lesse of God and more of Man .

3. An interpretation of these Gospell Scriptures which concerne Magistracy , Rom. 13. 4. 1 Tim. 2. 2. 1 Pet. 2. 12 , 14. ( which I humbly conceive to be so far as concernes any good or evill either of the Law of Nature or Nations ) into a good or evill purely spirituall , and of meere revelation in the Gospell , as things of Gospell-light , and mystery , and notions of Heresie and Schism are : this latitude of interpretation of the generall Rules in the Gospell concerning Magistracy , into all particulars of Truth and Heresie , is of high consideration .

Consid. 2.

Let it be considered , how the Kingdome of England may be called the Church , taking in all the Northen parts , the Western parts , the whole Nation generally to the very wals of London , with Mr. Marshals Testimony , M. Marshals serm Nov. 17. 1640. that many thousands , nay , thousands of thousands ▪ ( which accordingly reckoned takes up almost the greatest part of the Kingdom ) not knowing their right hand from their left in the very principles of the Doctrine of Christ ; and saith Mr Marshall ; no land can be esteemed Christs Kingdom where the preaching of the w●ra is not established : is any country esteemed a part of a Princes Dominion that is not ruled by his Laws ?

Consid. 3.

Let it be considered then , seeing the Kingdom of England is not a Church , but in the generall a Nation baptized into they know not what at first , and beleeving generally they knew not in whom ever since , as Mr. Marshall , whether there may not be a free peaceable cohabitation of the people together , viz. of those called Presbyteriall , Independent , Anabaptists , enjoying there severall waies of practice in things of outward cognizance and order , as Baptism , Church-Order , &c. in all peaceable demeanure and godlinesse , as well in this spirituall variety , as so many Corporations , Counties , Divisions , Armies , and severall Companies , in that their civill variety ; and yet in all , a civill comelinesse , peace ▪ and unity .

Consid. 4

Let it be considered , whether the Civill power in such a Gospell-mystery , as Presbytery is , and the way of Baptism is , and the way of Independency is , may not with more lawfulnesse , lesse hazzard of sin , and safety , keep off , or suspend his engagements from all sides , seeing there lies Gospell-strength and Arguments on all sides , and walke only according to those generall Rules the Gospell hath laid him down in Rom. 1. 3 , 4. 1 Tim. 2. 2 ▪ 1 Pet. 2. 13 , 14. not daring to draw himselfe to revenge any misbeleefe of particular Scripture misteries ; forcing either side either for Presbytery , Independency , or Baptism , which the Gospell hath no where warranted him in speciall or in any cleare consequence to do , but such as the present prevailing Brethren draw out from the judiciall law of Moses to help : and from these generall Gospel rules , which can bring forth but an opinionative justice , as their Arguments an opinionative truth , or Presbytery & whether the Magistrate ought not to demand a more clear & equitable rule in things of spiritual cognizane , I humbly present to be considered . Whether there ought not to be a certain Rule for a certaine justice : so if there should ever be a proceeding to Fines , Imprisonment , Banishment , the Divines can administer no more certain grounds for the Magistrates conscience , then such as they have for their own , which are but probable , controvertible , doubtfull , as the Arguments on all sides will make appeare .

Consid. 5.

Let it be considered , whether it hath not been one of the Nationall sins , viz. Making Laws , against all other I ormes , but what it did establish it self Nationally ; by which experience hath told us , how Gospell Truths have been kept out whole Generations ; ●opish States kept out Protestantism , and Prelacy kept out Peesbytery , and whether Presbytery proceeding on the same ground , is not in the same danger of sin , and of keeping out other Truths ; and whether upon this ground , any Gospell Revelation or Light Mr. Case Serm. Gods waiting , pag. 62. ( of which there shall be an Encreasing every day , as Mr. Case himselfe preached ) ever shall come into this Nation , but of the Nationall size and temper ; and we know that is not often the Gospell way ; the Lord hath chosen the weake things , and base things .

Consid. 6.

Let it be considered whether part of the great Mystery of iniquity be not that of drawing in the strength of the Nations , the Princes of the Rev. 17. 12 , 13. earth , to support the Ecclesiasticall or Church glory , and let this be sadly considered ; did not Popery get in the Kingdoms of the world to support itselfe ? Did not Prelacy stand by the same power ? Doth not Presbytery hold it selfe by the same strength of Magistrates ? Are not the same Iron rods and scourges of steele conveyed over from one of them to the other ? Did not the Pope whip the Protestant with fine , imprisonments ▪ and the Prelate take the rod out of his hand and whip the Non-conformist , and the Non-conformist or Presbyter take the same ●od out of the Prelates hand and scourge those that are Non-conformists to him ?

Consid ▪ 7.

Let it be well considered , whether the design of the Nationall Ministery , eversince the first working of it upon the Magistrates hath no● a design for strengthening their own interest by the Magistracy of the Kingdoms , and how have ▪ Kingdoms been embroyled for the serving of this designe , and whether is not this guilded with the glorious name of Reformation .

Consid. 8.

Let it be considered from the severall waies and Formes of proceeding in which the beleevers of severall opinions have gone in these times to support themselves , which stands most on a pure Gospel spirituall bottom , supported by its own innate ●ongeniall and proper strength , clasping about no stones ▪ no pillars of the world ▪ or humane strength .

Consid. 9.

Let it be considered , whether the whole cry of the Divines of the other Mr. Edw. his Gangraena . party ( as in the late Book ) is not all to the Magistrate : Help us Parliament , help us City or we are undon , the Heresies and Sects will undo us ; What said Ezra , I was ashamed ( saith he ) to require of the King an army and Ezra 8. 22. horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way , because we had said the hand of our God is upon all them that seek him .

Consid. 10.

Let it be considered whether they whom he cals Hereticks and Schismaticks , make it one of their choycest Principles to desire the Magistrate to help their opinions with their prisons , fines , pillories ; but rather that they would let them alone to stand and fall by the power or weaknesse of their Gospell principles , and that they may have liberty to pray for them , pay to them and possesse the Gospell .

Each opinionst ted briefly , respectively to Toleration . Let it be considered to what each pretended Heresie will amount to .

Independency .

INdependents beleeve that since the Parishes are so generally corrupted , the Churches ought to consist of those of them only that professe more purely , as they find Scripture Rule and Practice ; and as the Presbyterians themselves many of them practice in some Ordinances ▪ as that of Baptism and Supper ▪ giving them only to the purest Beleevers .

They also beleeve that they ought not be a few Ministers and Elders of the Churches to bring all the Churches and Congregations under their Power and Dominion , but rather under under their advice and consultation .

Quaere .

Because then they practice to meet more purely , and to rule lesse one over another ; whether is this enough that they should be fined , imprisoned , banished ?

The Anabaptists .

THe Anabaptists so called , they hold that Beleevers ought only to be baptized , and that Baptisme ought to be so for the manner , as may set forth Christs Death , Buriall and Resurre●●ion by water , as the Greek word and Apostles practice seems to imply , and some of the ablest Divines both of England and the great Adversaries the Papists themselves deny not ; and for children , they read of none the Apostles Baptized , and they see not any Scripture cleere enough to warrant , and they therefore forbeare .

Quaere .

Because they will not practice then what is not cleere in command , and confessed by all to be but in hidden consequence ; because they baptize as they find the clearest rule and practice , and as none can deny but it was the Apostles generall practice to baptez ▪ Beleevers : therefore , whither is this enough that they should be Fined , Imprisoned , Banished ?

The Seekers .

SEekers , some of them Question only the way of Church and Ordinances , as of Baptism , &c. because they find that the power was at first given to the Apostles with gifts , and from them to others , and they dare not take it from Antichrist and the Bishops , as the Reformed Kingdomes generally take it , nor from the Churches , because they find no such power begun from the Churches , but only of ch●y●e of consent , not of power not Churches begun before Apostles or Disciples with gifts .

Quaere .

Whether then is this enough , because they conceive they dare not take Ordinances , but from such , and in such a manner as was given at first , to Fine , Imprison , or Banish them ?

A Modell or Short Draught of the whole difference betwixt the Divines for the Presbytery and them of the other way respectively ▪ to the Magistrate or State drawn from the late Books and practice of both parties , in a Pet●●nary way .

They of the Presbytery to the Magistrates or State .

WE humbly Petition ye , that Herericks and Schismaticks ( we beleeving all that differ from us to be so ) may have your power inflicted upon them , whether to Fines , Imprisonm●n , or Banishment , and upon this condition , ye shall have what we can do , or preach , &c.

The Independents to the Magistrates or State .

WE humbly Petition , that ye will not hazzard nor endanger your civill power of the State to helpe our opinions against our Brethren , for we are not Infallable nor Apostolicall , we see but in part , and that ye will not punish any of our Brethren Presbyterials or others , for what they beleeve or differ from us in things of outward order in the Gospell , and that we may have leave to pray for ye , to pay tribute to ye , to fight for ye , and to worship the Lord among our selves peaceably as we beleeve , and to punish us when we disturbe ye by tumults , or trouble your peace in our way of worshipping .

Some Quaeres for the better understanding of M. Edwards last Book , called in Latine Gangrena , But in English , a Book of Scandals , against the Honourable Houses of Parliament , the Army , the Saints and Churches of Christ , that differ from him .

Quaere . 1.

WHether this be not a new way , and work of Providence to bring forth some Gospel-light to the world by presenting some truth under the name and notion of errours and heresies , which can scar●e obtaine from the Presse and Pulpit any other way of appearing abroad : and if this ●e not to take the wise in their owne craftinesse , and to make M. Cranford the Licenser , and M. Edwards the Publisher of some such Truths , which the world had else never knowne so publikely , but under the forme of heresie , and from their two pens , but under this disguise ?

Whether that Story which M. Edwards tels of Brasteed in Kent , where he sayes a woman preaches which is known to my selfe , and all in that place to be a meere untruth , be not a way to judge of most of his Stories , Letters , Relations ?

Whether this late Book called Gangrena , where there are so many letters writ to the Reverend M. Edwards , to the Worthy M. Edwards , to the Good M. Edwards , to the Father M. Edwards , to the Worthy , Reverend , good M. Edwards , with divers other insinuations of his own worth , be not a way of seeking glory ▪ and praise from men ?

Whether so many Letters as are in the Book called Gangrena , where there is not one name subscribed , may not be as well written from M. Edwards as to him : and whether the Authours of those Letters whose names are suppressed , are not afraid to be questioned for their Relations , and therefore have either conceived their names themselves , or M. Edwaras for them ?

Whether the great reasonings and conflicts , which M. Edwards saith he had in his spirit in the writing of this book , and sayes were only carnall conflicts , were not rather conflicts with that spirit of God , which breathed on him more love and charity to his Brethren , then it seems he would receive at that time .

Whether his accusing the Parliament and Army , the one for tolerating as never Christian State or Magistrate were known to doe ; the other for Antinomianism , Independency , Familisme , Seraphanisme , &c. be not of high and dangerous insinuation to the people at such a juncture of time , and of desperate ●ritation to our Brethren of Scotland , and is against the solemne League and Covenant , one great Article of it ?

Whether this be a sufficient confutation of my Booke called the Smoake in the Temple , to call it a Book of errors , as he doth in Pag. 3. Epist. and in Pag. 180. where he saith only , this is an errour , and that is an errour , without the least particle of Reason or Scripture to prove it ; where if meere accusations may passe for crimes , I wonder he made his Book so large , and rather summed not all up into one grand affirmative , viz. This is all heresie , and so have spared the Reader much paines , and himselfe much paper ?

Whether hath M. Edwards dealt faithfully and ingenuously as became a Brother , pretending to so much clearnesse and integrity of spirit ( and which makes me suspect him in the rest ) viz. to charge me with positive errours ( which my Booke can witnesse to the world ) I writ as exceptions to serve a design of Peace and Reconciliation , and not as my opinions ?

Whether the designe which M. Edwards pretends in setting forth his Book , viz. to make the blasphemies and errours of the times ( as he cals them ) to be detested , is not rather a far contrary designe , viz. to spread poyson , infect many souls who by this shall come to the knowledge of such things as they never heard before , having provided no Antidote , nor any Answer of Scripture or reason against them , but meerly contradictions , and ill words ; it was observed that some books set forth for the discovery of w●●ch●raft , made many W●ches ; and so who knowes how many hereticks he may make by this his pretended designe against them ; sure either some of the heresies or diseases were so above his care or remedy , or he had a counter design to make Hereticks , or the wisdome of his designe was turned into folly , making Hereticks by writing against them .

M. Edwards Designes against His Brethren that differ from him .

Gangrena , p. 164. Let us fill all Presses , and make all Pulpits ring , and so possesse Parliament , City and whole Kingdome against Sects . Quaere .

Whether this be not according as the Priests and Elders did about Christs Resurrection saying to the Souldiers , say you they stole him away , and if any thing come to the Governours eare , we will perswade him , that is , let us cry out they are all Hereticks and Schismaticks , and we will perswade the Governours that it is so .

M. Edwards Book , p. 172. Let the Magistrate put out some Declarations declaring they shall be proceeded against as Vagrants and Rogues . Quaere .

Whether is this wisedome like that from above , which is first pure , then peaceable : whether these be such words as the Angell gave , who would not give the very Devill himself ill language , but The Lord rebuke thee O Satan .

M. Edwards Book , Epist. Page 4. When I thinke of , &c. how many powerfull Sermons you have had preached before you about the Covenant against the Sects , the many Petitions , and yet how little is done , &c. God accounts all those Errors , Heresies , let alone and suffered , to be the sins of those who have power . Quaere .

Whether is not this a representing to the world , and a publike insinuation that the Parliament are Sermon-sleighters , Covenant-breakers , hereticall , unjust , Petition-sleighters ; and whether this ought not to have been rather represented by him in private papers , then thus to arraigne them before the people , and to make them vile in the eyes of the world , who have exceeded all their Predecessors in being tender of the bloud and sufferings of Gods people , and giving the Churches rest , for which they have prospered more in the field in victories for this their peace at home , then ever before .

M. Edwards , p. 2. Epist , to Gangrena . You have done worthily against Papists and Prelaies , &c. but what have you done against other kind of growing evils , Heresies , Libertines , &c. Quaere .

Whether is not this to charge upon the Parliament all those things which he so grosly aggravates to the world as Blasphemies , &c. and to bury all the Honour of the Good they have done , in the Sepulcher of the Evill which he saith they are now in doing .

M. Edwards Epist. Noble Senatours , be pleased to pardon the boldnesse I shall take , &c. not to impute it to my malignity , &c. I am one who out of choice , and of judgement , have embarqued my selfe with you . Quaere .

Whether doth it not clearly appeare by this Apology , and insinuation of his own worth and good affections that he knew well to what a Crime and Transgression both against Parliament and Piety the Book he had writ would amount to , and therefore bespake their just indignation and Censure beforehand with this story of his good affections , and imbarquing himself for them .

Whether did M. Edwards consider the Parliaments Honour , Quality , Capacity , that durst entitle them to the Patronage of such immodest , ridiculous Stories and Tales , as he brings in his Gangrena .

An Expostulation with M. Edwards , upon his Booke called GANGRAENA . SIR ,

THe uncharitable expressions of your Book against those who see not by your Light , and write not by your Candle ; your binding up the Tares with the Wheat together , and the precious with the vile ; your trampling upon your Brethren as the mire in the streets , have forced my Spirit into these few Quaeries ; for Stons sake I cannot hold my peace .

The Designes of your Book seem to be these :

1. A Designe of Provocation to the Magistrate against your Brethren .

2. Of Accusatio● , under the old project of Hereticks and Schismaticks .

3. Of Historicall Recreation to the people , that they may make themselves sport with the Beleevers that differ from ye , as the Philistins with Sampson upon the Stage .

Can your wounded Brethren make ye good musick ? Can their failings make ye more innocent ? Or their sins make ye more spirituall ?

You would have all the Beleevers that are not of your minde , banished , &c. will you who pretend your selfe to be a friend , be such an enemy to the State as to cut off ( like Ner● the Tyrants wish ) so many thousand of their faithfull servants at a blow , in such a juncture of time when they need so many ? Ought ye to work off so many choice ones from this Cause , till you have as many more of your way for their places ; and till as many Battels , yeares , experiments , prove them as gloriously faithfull , as these are ; is this faire dealing with the State ?

You have brought forth before Israel and the Sun , many pretended sins and crimes of your Brethren : Suppose they should write by your Copy , and bring forth the Aslembly-sinnes , the crimes of all those of your way , of all the Divines and others that you take in , and rake back into the ashes of their unregenerate condition , keep Almanackes for the yeares and dayes of their faylings , watch their haltings in all things they say or doe , tell all the Stories of them they heare , what would the next generation thinke of their Book and yours ? At this rate of writing they would not reade one honest man of all their forefathers yet this is your course and method .

I have done for this time , and I hope all that are not inchanted with the Gorgons-head of Hereticks and Schismaticks and Church of England , ( as your owne Smectymnians say ) will reade and judge . I had said more to ye , had you printed us more Reason , and lesse Reviling , and something more then Stories and Winter-tales .

And for our Licenser , whom you so rayle at , he is so much a friend to all the world of beleevers , as to give them the Scripture-liberty of proving and trying all things ; and not to silence the Presse , as some would , and as the Prelates did silence the Pulpit .

And now let any age , weighing all the differences ( excepting the Blasphemies , &c. ) and the nature of them nakedly , without aggravations , and fallacy of words , bring forth a Book printed in such Letters of bloud , as this Gangraena , bind up all the Oxford Aulicusses , the Mountagues , the Pocklingtons , and see if this Gangraena doe not exceed them all ; this is Persecution and Prelacy sublimate .

And for all this , I would not have the Civill power drawne against you , ( if we had all the Magistrates on our side ) but rather that you may in the flowings of a more heavenly spirit , with your head of waters , and your eyes a fountaine of teares , write against your owne Book , and let the world see that Men in these times are not infallible , as you all conclude , but may mistake their Brethren for Enemies , some Truths for Errours , and Zeale for Persecution , as the very Jewes did when they crucified Christ , as they thought , for Blasphemy ; And some shall kill ye , saith Christ , and thinke they doe God good service .

A Parallel between the Prelacy and the Presbytery .

Quaere . WHether if we should reply to M. Edwards in his owne words , and as Salomon saith , answer him according to his , &c. we not compare things as followeth , and trace up their proceedings into the very mystery of Prelacy ?

1. The Prelates were ordained Ministers by the Bishops .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines that sit now , are Ordained by the same power of Bishops to be Ministers , and so by that power ordaine others ?

2. The Prelates when they had made Canons , procured the power of the State to impose them upon all the Kingdome .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now get the same power to what they decree , and accordingly impose them upon the Kingdome ?

3. The Prelates composed one great Service-booke for direction to Uniformity of worship , according as they had ordered under penalties , yet without the least word of Scripture to prove the truth of any thing in it .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , Divines have composed one great Booke accordingly now for the like Uniformity , viz. the Directory to be observed under fines and penalties ; and yet without the least word or tittle of Scripture to prove the truth of any thing in it ?

4. The Prelates ordered , that from that Book Prayers should be read to the people .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now have not cast the Prayers of the Spirit into such Formes and Methods , that a little invention will make them as stinted currant and legible Formes as before , and accordingly read in divers places ?

5. The Prelates counted all that would not conforme to them , Schismaticall and Hereticall .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now count not all so that will not be uniforme with them ?

6. The Prelates forbad all to Preach and Print , that did not Preach and Print for their way of worship and Government .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now would not have all hindred from Pulpit and Presse that will not be of way of Worship and Government with them ?

7. The Prelates possessed themselves of the States power and favour .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now wholly labour after the same interest , both in Parliament and other Councles ?

8. The Prelates had their Licensers to stop all that write against their power and pompe .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now labour to ingrosse the power of licensing only to themselves ?

9. The Prelates had for part of their Government , Fines , Pillories , Whips , Imprisonment .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now have those very things for part of theirs ?

10. The Prelates had Parishes for their Churches , and Tythes for their maintenance .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said the Divines now have the same Parishes now for Churches , the same Tythes for maintenance ?

11. The Prelates called all other meetings but their Parish-meetings , Conventicles .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now call the Churches and people that meet now together apart from them , Conventicles as formerly .

12. The Prelates called the Non-conformists factious troublers of the State . Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now doe accordingly call any that write or oppose their Presbytery , factious and State-troublers ?

13. The Prelates ever accused their Non-conforming Brethren to the King and Councell .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now accordingly accuse their Non-conforming Brethren to the Parliament and other Councels ?

14. The Prelates had a designe to send all their Non-conformed Brethren to strange Kingdomes , as New-England .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now endeavour to send their Non-conforming Brethren to other places out of the Kingdome ?

15. The Prelates ingrossed all the Preaching , and preferring Divines to all places of honour and popularity in the Kingdome to themselves .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now doe accordingly preferre to all places of publike trust , honour , and imploiment ▪ as Universities , Navy , Armies , Garrison-Towns , Counties , Cities , & c ?

16. The Prelates would not suffer men whom they called Lay-men , to speake of the Scriptures .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now doe forbid and contemne all Lay-mens gifts in the same manner ?

17. The Prelates would not suffer any to goe from the Parish-Minister .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now accordingly labour to have all keep to their Parishes .

18. The Prelates called Truths which they received not ; New Lights , Errours .

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now accordingly call all things they receive not , New Lights , Whimsies , Errours .

19. The Prelates laboured to scandalize their Non-conforming Brethren with Nick-names , &c.

Quaere . Whether may it not be said , the Divines now accordingly labour to make their Non-conforming Brethren vile and scandalous to the Kingdome ?

Ezek. 18 2. Thus the Fathers have eaten sowre grapes , and the childrens teeth are set on edge .

Thus if we would compare crimes and times , we might write and speak .

Quaere . Whether M. Edwards in reekoning up divers ▪ things for Errors , hath not much aspersed his owne Brethren ▪ Doctor Twisse , M. Gattaker , and many others in many Doctrinall points they hold ?

The Testimony of M. Samuel Rutherford , one of the Scotch Comm●ssioners , in the last Page of his Epistle to the Reader , in his Booke Intituled , The Divine Right of Church-Government , and Excommunication . No incroaching on Christs Prerogative .

BUt it is a Controversie ( say some ) whether the Government of the Church of the New Testament , belong to the Magistrate or to the Church ? To which I say 1. It was a controversie created by men willing to please Princes , with more power in the Courts of Christ then ever the Lawgiver and Apostles gave them , and that against the minde of glorious Lights , the first Reformers , and the whole Troop of Protestant Divines , who studied the Controversie against the usurped Monarchy of the man of sin , more exactly then one Physitian , who in a cursory way diverted off his Road of Medicine , of which he wrote learnedly , and broke in on the by upon the deepest Polemicks of diyinity , and reached a riders blow unawares to his Friends . 2. In things doubtfull , conscience hath refuge to the surest side : Now it s granted by all , and not controverted by any , that in the Apostolike Church , the government of the Church of the New Testament was in the hands of Apostles , Pastors , Teachers ; and therefore Conscience would sway to that in which there can be no Error , except on supposall of abuse ; and Christian Rulers would not doe well to venture upon Eternity , wrath , the judgement to come ; confiding on the poore plea of an Erastian distinction , to incroach upon the Prerogative Royall of Jesus Christ .

FINIS .

THese Reasons , tending not only to the sweetning of the TWO KINGDOMES , England and Scotland , the Parliament , and Dissenting Brethren on both sides , in the Assembly , each to other ; but also to the preserving a Just Liberty for them all respectively , I commend to the Presse .

March 30. 1646. IOHN BACHILER .

THE DIVINE RIGHT OF PRESBYTERY ; Asserted by the present Assembly , and Petitioned for accordingly to the Honourable House of Commons in PARLIAMENT .

With REASONS Discussing this pretended Divine-Right ; and yet with tendernesse to the Brethren of the Presbyteriall way . Pleading for a Liberty of Conscience for them in this their Opinion , as for others of their Dissenting Brethren , and equally for both . With Inferences upon their late PETITION .

By John Saltmarsh , Preacher of the Gospell .

Rev 2. 2. Thou hast tried those that say they are Apostles , but are not .

LONDON , Printed for Giles Calvert , at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS . 1646.

To those Brethren of the Assembly of Divines , Petitioners who are for the pretended Divine Right of the present PRESBYTERY .

BRETHREN , Meeting ye but of the Assembly , or that bounder appointed ye by Par● . I cannot justly be denied this reasoning with ye ; for the Ordinance by which ye sit , doth enable ye only to advise of See Ordin . Iu● . 12 1643. P. 4. things propounded , but not to propound or demand any as ye have done of late ; so as in this ye have brought your selves down to the same magnitude with us that are private men : Here is the difference now ; Ye are many of better parts and abilities ; I am as one borne out of duetime ; yet the same Covenant is upon me with your selves ; nor ought I because I am but one , presume to see Truth more then one , because ye are many ; Nay , it is that voyce from the excellent 2 Pet. 1. 17. glory which both you and I must heare , and which can only teach us Truth ; It is not the voyce of any other . And surely , since Truth hath had its lot in the world to l●ve upon voyces in Assemblies and Synods , where that is only Truth which is voted so , and not in its own glory and evidence , where that is only Truth which is so : The Mystery of iniquity hath been more advanced then the Mystery of godlinesse .

THE DIVINE RIGHT Of Presbytery , &c. With Reasons discussing this pretended DIVINE - RIGHT .

FIrst , They who are the Presbyters in this present Presbytery , pretend to be Presbyters by a power of Ordination from Bishops , as the Bishops were Presbyters : and if so , they are to make it appeare , that there is a true personall succession of Ministery from the Apostles , and that they doe lineally succeed without interruption ; for in succession , unlesse there be a certain , perpetuall , and personall derivation of power , there can be no certainty , nor infallibility of the truth of such a power ; and whether the proof of this drawes not with it a necessary and perpetuall visibility of a Church , ( contrary to the opinion of all the Reformed Divines ; ) and further , a truth of Church-Ministery , and Ordinances of Jesus Christ . in the Antichristian State , from whence this Ministery of theirs comes , by which they stand present Presbyters , and how any true Ministery can be found in that very Antichristian State , which is called the man of sin , the mystery of iniquity , the Whore of Babylon , the falling away ; and how the same State can be both meerly Antichristian and Christian , a Whore of Babylon , and a Spouse of Iesus Christ , a Ministery of God , and a mystery of iniquity , a Temple of God and of Idols ; I leave it to be judged .

2. That these present pretended-Presbyters cannot be found true Presbyters but by such a personall and successively derived power , will appeare , from their present Modell of Ordination ; they allowing and accounting none for Presbyters or Ministers , but such as are sent out by their personall Ordination , or were formerly ordained by Bishops ; so as they make these , and these must make others ; and thus their power is derived from a personall and lineall succession , and demonstratively proved from their owne practice : nor will it help them that Iesus Christ alwayes had a Church , or some invisible Saints under Antichrist because they must both prove themselves and the Episcopall Ministery to succeed that very Church , or those very invisible Saints ; and that , that Church or those very Saints , were Presbyters or Ministers ; for we know men may be Saints , but not sent , or ministerially Saints sent ; good men , but not good Presbyters , as in their owne way of practice will more appeare : for if any should now call himself a true Presbyter or Minister , he must prove his sending to them by a personall Ordination ; which proof of their Ordination we demand from them , as they would doe now from any others .

3. How these things can stand together . That the Divine Right is in See their humble Advice . the Congregationall Presbytery , as they acknowledge ; and yet that there is a Classicall , Provinciall , and Nationall Presbytery , which are but Prudentiall and humane , or mixed Judicatures , according to such a distinction ; and yet are allowed by them a Power Supreme and coercive to the Divine Right of the Congregationall Presbytery , which is the first and immediate subject of the Divine Right of Presbytery , as they themselves acknowledge . And now whether doe not their owne principles controll See in their Humble advice , &c. to the Parl. Manus . page 4. that pretended Divine Right they plead for and set up , a Presbytery of Charity and Prudence , over the Presbytery in the particular Congregation , which they say is only of Divine Right ?

4. How can that Presbytery whose constitution is so questionable , challenge such a Divine Right ? As first , their Presbyters , or first constituting Principles , are ordained by a questionable power , viz. that of Bishops .

Their Ruling-Elders by a power as questionable , viz. by a Rule or Ordinance of Parliament ; prudentiall for triall ▪ for election , because of the generall corruption in this Kingdome , both in Ministers and people ; not by that very Apostolicall Scripture-Rule or Institution of Jesus Christ .

Their Congregations Parishionall , and of politick constitution ; not Congregationall , according to Scripture .

Their way of constituting this present Presbytery extraordinary , by such an Assembly , without precept or example for such a Way in the whole New Testament , from whence the whole Order of that dispensation ought to be framed , and not from the Law , or Old Testament , or See the humble Advice , &c. of the Assembly in manus . some cases of necessity in the State or Church of Israel by way of Analogy , as they say in their Modell to the Parliament .

The Primitive Elders and Apostles were qualified immediately from the Spirit with gifts proper to such a Ministration ; which these Presbyters and Elders being not , but most by gifts , and habits of Art and Science acquired by industry ; therefore these present Presbyters cannot challenge the same power for Church-Censures , without the same Spirit gifting them , and anointing them to such a power and administration in the Church ; but ought to be content meerly with a mixed and partly prudentiall power , because of the mixture of their anointing and gifts , if they will needs have such a Government set up for Christ's , which is not all Christs , and most of that all very questionable whether of Christ or no.

For all their proofs alleadged from Scripture for the Presbytery by Divine Right ▪ or of such Presbyters as were ordained either by Christ himself , as the Apostles ; or by a power from the Apostles , or from such who in that power received from the Apostles , did ordaine , or by a power in the Church or Congregation preceding such a power , and accompanying such a power : Now this present Presbytery can neither make it selfe appeare to be so purely ordained , nor have they the Church or Congregationall power so preceding or accompanying such an Ordination ; nor is that act of Imposition of hands by which their present Presbyters stand Ministers , a meere signe of setting apart , or meerly significative , but an Institution for gifts to be conferred : under the Law , it was an empty and bare Rite ; but under the Gospell , it cannot be proved to be such an empty Rite ; Gospell-signes being but few full , and ministeriall to the spirit ; not meerly significatively-visible , as the Institutions and Rites under the Law were . So as all being thus questionable still in this present Presbytery ; how can they so Apostolically challenge such a Divine Right , their present constitutions being mixt , questionable , fallible , not one and the same with that primitive , pure , certaine constitutions and practices ?

Whereas it appears in their Scripture-proofs , that both in Jerusalem , Ephesus , Crete , &c. the Presbyters and Elders did constitute , &c. and were most consulted with , and advised ; and therefore they assume the same power , and so force out rather then prove out their frame of their present Presbytery from such practices : I desire the Brethren to tell us whether the Word of the Gospell was then wholly in Scripture or writing , but partly in the Spirit and gifts or teaching : and therefore the Eldership of the Churches then were so gifted , as to direct , constitute , advise ; and from the ministration of gifts in the Eldership , &c. the Institutions , formes and Rules were given out into Scripture or writing ; which Scripture or written Word is now in the place of that infallible Primitive Eldership : and therefore for any Presbytery or Eldership to assume now such a power as the first did , they doe not only without warrant substitute themselves to such a Presbytery or Eldership , which stood by another anointing or spirit of gifts then themselves doe ; but they sit downe in the throne with the very Scripture or written Word of God , casting a shadow upon the glory and infallibility of that Word , by that present authority and power which they now challenge in the interpretation of that Word in their Presbytery , because by such a sure and certaine power as Divine Right allowes them , they having not a sure and infallible Spirit for Church-censures , or the execution of such a power , may put forth a certaine , sure , executive power , by an uncertaine , unsure , and fallible spirit . And so how proportionable a power of Divine Right , is with a Spirit not purely Divine ; and how proportionable a power of Church-censures acted by a gift not purely the Spirit 's , but rather the Vniversities and Schooles ; and to joyne such an Eldership so with the infallible Word or Scripture , which for want of that primitive or pure anoynting by gifts , shall controule the pure Word of Truth , by an Interpretation lesse then Truth , I leave to all the world of beleevers to judge .

How such a visible power and Judge as a Nationall Assembly of such a Presbytery , can be set up , which must judge all the Churches and Congregations of Christ , all the Magistracy and State-power in the Kingdom , they assuming to themselves a spirit of judging and discerning of sins : And whether by this power the Parliament of England shall not fall under the See in their last Petition . cognisance , interpretation , and censure of such an Assembly , for some sins which they as a Civill power may commit , especially dealing in Ecclesiasticall causes : And then how far such a Nationall Assembly may manage such crimes to the heightning of their own interest , and to the troubling the interest of the State amongst the people , I let all judg , who know how the same visible Ecclesiasticall Judge is condemned by all the Reformed Kingdoms under another notion , viz. of the Antichrist , and Pope , and Councels : And how that Antichristian power and Judge in Ecclesiasticals hath troubled this and other Kingdoms to the imbroiling them by excommunications into Wars and commotions ( as in our Histories , &c. ) and hath at length taken up other weapons then the Word to make good their Ecclesiasticall censures and interests .

And whether this visible forme of Classicall , Provinciall , Nationall , Oecumenicall , be any other then the like Papall , Episcopall power , differing only in forme , in Consistoriall , Provinciall , Nationall , Oecumenicall Counsels and Synods , the like spirit of Dominion , ruling , conventing , excommunicating in each .

Objection . But how will you do to satisfie Parliament , Presbyterials , and other dissenting Brethren ? Answ.

Not that I will determine , but propound for the Parliament : It appeares that the State-conscience according to the present corrupt constitution both of Ministers , and Elders , and People of this Kingdom , cannot yeeld a Divine Right to a Presbytery so constituted ; and therefore they are not to be forced to the judgement of the present Assembly , no more then the Assembly do desire to be forced themselves to their judgment ; and therefore each is to enjoy their liberty in the Lord as they are perswaded .

The State is to enjoy their liberty in their judgement of no Divine Right in this present Presbytery .

The Assembly may enjoy theirs , in their judgement of a pretended Divine Right or Presbytery in all Congregations , which will conscienciously practice with them , not seeking to make the State subservient to them by their Civill power , which no Scripture practice will warrant from any Eldership or Presbytery there : and thus the French Churches enjoy the Presbytery at this day , having no Civill power to help them .

And the other dissenting Brethren may enjoy their Divine Right too , being as fully perswaded from Scripture of theirs as the other are of theirs , and equally live under the same liberty , and not trouble the State with any thing but their prayers and obedience .

Objection . But the Brethren of the Assembly expect the Parliament should joyne with their results . Answ.

I know not why they should expect that , for they are no more infallibly gifted then their Brethren , that they should expect more from the State then they .

Their Ministery is as questionable .

Their Interests are more in the world then the Interests of the first Presbyters were , as in their maintenance by Tythes , and in their power of Classicall , Provinciall , Nationall , the Kingdom being thus corrupted , and in that subserviency and power of compulsion , they demand of the Magistrate , and Princes of the world .

And why our dissenting Brethren may not with as much justice , honor , conscience , desire the State to settle such a Gospell-order as they beleeve to be true ; the other being no more enabled to demand of the State any power for imposing their conclusions true by a power of the States own giving by Ordinance : And whether the State seeing no infallibility of spirit in any of all sides , since what the Truth which they hold bring in its own evidence and demonstration before them , ought to be pressed ▪ as bound to one by any Interest more then to another ▪ save that of Truth , I leave to be considered ; and then , what reason the Brethren have thus to presse their supposed Divine Right , I desire to know .

Objection . Whether is this to settle things according to Covenant ? Answ.

Yea , The Covenant binds us to Vniformity ; but then , that clause According to the Word of God doth restraine the Vniformity to the light which each Kingdom sees by according to that Word ; and therefore our Brethren of Scotland see Presbytery in one degree , the Hollanders in another , and the French in another , and at this time England in another ; and yet all should be one in that clause of the Covenant , viz. to defend each other in their degrees of Reformation against the common enemy ; We Scotland , and Scotland us ; and what a comely thing it is for Brethren to dwell together in Unity , though they cannot in Uniformity !

The Last Petition of the Assembly , for Divine Right in their present Presbytery , with Inferences upon it .

Petition . THat the Provisions of Commissioners to judge the scandals not numerated , appeares to our consciences to be so contrary to that way of Government which Christ hath appointed in his Church . Inference .

Whence we may inferre , that the Assembly do suppose the Parliament and Commissioners to be far below the Ministers and Eldership in spirituall gifts and discerning , which I suppose cannot be well presumed , considering the Assembly and Eldership now is not annointed with that pure spirit and gifts as the first were ; but with habits of Arts and Sciences , and with some measure of the Spirit , which many both of the Parliament and Commissioners both may be , and are enabled with as well as they ; and whether is not this to set up the old distinstion of Layty and Clergy , and to set the present Eldership and Presbytery upon a higher Forme then the Magistrate ? seeing the gifts are not so distinct as at first , why should the Offices be so distinct ?

Petition . In that it giveth a power to judge of the fitnesse of Persons . Inference .

Whence we may inferre , that they presume themselves to be that very Ministery and Eldership of Jesus Christ , though both their Ministery is by Bishops , and their Elders by a prudentiall constitution and election at this present ; and may not the Magistrate , who is unquestionably the power of God , Rom. 13. appointed to be Judge of good and evill ; more lawfully judg o● sins and Gospell-Rules , then they who are a questionable Ministery and Eldership in this present Presbytery ?

Petition . And to be so differing from all examples of the best Reformed Churches , and such a reall kinderance to the bringing the Churches of God in the three Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity , and in all those respects so disagreeable to our Covenant . Inference .

Whence we may inferre , that if all do not beleeve as one beleeve , it is pretended that all are in breach of Covenant ; and thus the Covenant is made a snare by interpretation , and principles of spirituall compulsion implyed in the Covenant , contrary to the Spirits wisdom who both allowes and advises the severall statures and measures of light , the weak and strong : and whether the Communion by unity is not a glorious supplement to the Rent of Vniformity , that of Vnity being in the Spirit , that of Vniformity in the Letter ; and why should our Brethren thus bring down the State and Kingdom more to other Reformed Kingdoms , or not rather raise up the other Reformed Kingdoms to this ? and if any thing be revealed more to this Kingdom , that hath sit by this long time , why should not the other hold their peace , and beleeving Kingdomes as Beleevers walke one with another so far as they have attained ? and wherein they have not , the Lord shall reveale even this unto them ; not but that this Kingdome ought to forme it selfe into any Communion with the rest , so far as their Communion excels , and so the other into Communion with this so far as this excels , and both so farre to one another , as they are perswaded , not compelled , which are no Arguments for Faith but Formality .

Petition . Do humbly pray that the severall Elderships may be sufficiently enabled . Inference .

Whence we may inferre , that their whole endeavour is to raise up the Interest of the Eldership and Presbytery into a distinct , sole , and Independent body and power , which how conformable , and obedient , and consistent it may prove to and with the power of the State in one and the same Kingdom , would be considered , when such an Interest grow●s up from its infancy and first Reformation , into a fuller and more perfect man : And whether their petitioning of a power from the State to compleat and make them an Eldership and Presbytery , doth not imply a power in the State more or rather as fully Ecclesiasticall as their Presbytery ; for can the State give them any Ecclesiasticall power , and have none it selfe ; so as according to these Principles the State is Ecclesiastical as well as they , and so not to be denied the power of Commissioning with them : or else t is a meere contradiction to pray for power from those to their Eldership and Presbytery , which they say is a Government and Power entirely Ecclesiasticall and compleat in it selfe ; and so , as they either pray for that which they have of their own already , or else pray for that from the State which they cannot give them .

Petition . It belongs unto them by Divine Right , and by the Will and appointment of Jesus Christ ; which with the help of superiour Assemblies in cases of appeale , or in all administrations therein , will prevent ( through the blessing of God all the feared inconveniences . Inference .

Whence we may infer , that the Presbytery and Eldership of a Congregation is of Divine Right , &c. yet that Divine Right is perfected and compleated by that which is not of as pure Divine Right as it selfe , viz. Superiour Assemblies ; and so becomes neither purely Prudentiall , nor Divine , but Mixt ▪ and so is neither good Divine , nor good Humane Right .

Petition . And the Magistrate to whom we professe the Church to be accountable for their proceedings in all their Elderships and Church Assemblies , and punishable by him with Civill censures for their miscarriages . Inference .

Whence we may inferre , that the Civill Magistrate is neither over nor under the Presbytery , and where they place it , who can tell by this Petition of theirs ? for over it the Magistrate is not ; for they say Commissioners over them are not sufferable ; and under it they say the Magistrate is not , for their Eldership and Presbytery are to be accountable to the Civill power for their miscarriages ; and how at the same time they should subject their Churches in their mal Administrations to the Magistrates power of judging and yet challenge such an entire , sole , supreame and Ecclesiasticall Judicature , is a mystery becomming the learning of that same Assembly to reveale which first begun it .

Principles against the Divine Right o● 〈…〉 present Presbytery extracted from the Reasons .

1. THey are no such Presbyters of Jesus Christ as the first were , because ordained by an Antichristian power of Bishops ; nor were Bishops true Presbyteres , nor those who joyned with them in their Ordination who were made by them , nor is there any succession of Ordination , but it implies both a Perpetuall Visible Church , and a true Church Ministery and Ordinances under Antichrist , which all are to be proved by them .

2. If there were any such true Church invisible under Antichrist , to which they succeed in their Ministery , then it must appeare that they succeed that very invisible Church , and that that very invisible Church had a true Ministery or Presbytery in it ; for men may be Saints , or good men , yet not good Presbyters , or Ministerially sent .

3. As they now in their practice will not account any for true Presbyters but such who can prove to them their personall Ordination from them , so we demand of these Presbyters an account of their personall succession accordingly , which personall succession if it be false and interrupted any where in the Line , must needs be all false , from such a point where the first interruption was made .

4. Though Christs promise is enough to ground a perpetuity of Church and Christs presence , yet not of his promise made good to such particular men , or to their pretended succession .

5. They that challenge a Divine Right to the power they act by , must act by a gift as Divine and infallible as their right and power , and thus did the primitive Presbyters and Elders ; therefore the gift being but mixt , their right or power is but mixt accordingly , and not Divine .

6. They who were Elders or Presbyters in the first Churches , as Ierusalem , &c. were gifted by a spirit which taught the very infallible Word which is now written or Scripture , and so they then did constitute , advise , counsell in the place of this written Word ; and all Scripture Formes and Institutions were then in the gift , and persons ; but no such thing can be said of any Eldership or Presbytery of men now .

7. They who set up an Eldership or Presbytery now of Divine Right , to constitute , ordaine , counsell , &c. do joyne to the Word written , or infallible Scripture , a Power lesse infallibly gifted , who by such a Divine Right and Power pretended , shall controle the Word of Truth , by Interpretations of that Word lesse then Truth , which is not consistent with the glory of the Word .

8. There is no Eldership or Presbytery in Scripture , but either the Churches Act did precede it , act it , or accompany it , by precept or practice , which makes the Divine Right of the Presbytery questionable , uncertain , unsafe , because of a contrary Scripture , and Precept .

9. The Eldership and Presbytery which are brought for instances , are questionable ; first for the Persons , who were not such very Presbyters as they would imply , but Apostles , Evangelists , &c. or otherwise ordained , either by Apostles or Church , or otherwise gifted by speciall unction , or else an Eldership of eminency , not of Office .

10. They hold this Divine Right is in the first subject in the Congregationall Presbytery , and yet they set up a Classicall , Provinciall , Nationall Presbytery to compleat and controle this of the Congregationall , and how this their Divine Right can be subjected thus to a Right lesse Divine , is unreasonable , and unscripturall to imagine .

11. Suppose such a power as a Nationall Presbytery collected from all parts of the Kingdom , every Congregation having an Interest , or part there , and this Presbytery so Nationall and Collective informed by a Divine Right , for judging sins , &c. shall not this Nationall Presbytery take cognizance of States , if sinning , Ecclesiastically as well as others ? and if so , what proceeding , what cen●ures will follow from such a body as universall as the body of that State , and of as much Interest in the Kingdom as they , and of more interest , by how much more Divine a Right they act by , and by how much neerer they are seated to the conscience , and how Kingdoms have been embroyled by such an Ecclesiasticall Interest , Histories will tell ye ?

12. So as in this straite when Parliament is perswaded of no Divine Right , Assembly of a Divine Right , and the Dissenting brethren of another Divine Right ; is not the way this , to let the Parliament have their Liberty of Conscience , to settle no Divine Right , by a power , and the Assembly to use their Liberty in a Divine Right , with all that will peaceably joyne with them in the Kingdom under that Power , and not to trouble the Magistrate further ; and the other Brethren as peaceably to enjoy their other Divine Right , as the Brethren of the Presbyteriall way theirs , and all alike under the same Civill Power , and neither of them with it , and all other Reformed Kingdomes , in unity of the Spirit , and love , to one another ?

Principles destructive to their present Petition extracted from the Inferences .

1. The Presbytery now not so distinct in gifts and office , but the Magistrate may rule with them .

THe Eldership , and Presbytery in the primitive Churches had a spirit anointing them to such Administrations ; but now as the anointing is not so , nor is the Office pure , peculiar , and distinct ; the Magistrates and Parliament have gifts as spirituall as there are any now in the pretended Presbytery , and may therfore as well put forth a Power in their Churches or Congregations , as they , unlesse their Churches , Officers , and Gifts , were more Christs then they are .

2. The Magistrate may better rule then the Eldership or present Presbytery .

The Magistrate is unquestionably a power of God , and the present Presbytery are Officers questionable in their Offices , Gifts &c. Therefore the Magistrate may more lawfully put forth a Power coercive to sin then they .

3. Vniformity in the Word of God is the Vniformity of Church●● .

They that presse the Covenant for Vniformity so penally as they do , make it a snare of compulsion , not in the Word of it , but in their Interpretation of that Word ; unity in the Spirit , makes up the want of Uniformity in the Letter ; Kingdoms are to be no more compelled to Vniformity in Laws Ecclesiasticall then in Civill , but may walke together as Beleevers so far as they have attained ; that clause according to the Word of God , makes roome for the severall statures of Christ , and measures of light in the Covenant , and they that agree in that are truly Vniforme , for it is the Vniformity with the Word , not with one another , but so far as we are all alike in that Word , which is the very Vniformity of the Kingdom of Christ .

4. The Magistrate as they now make him , is Ecclesiasticall as well as they .

They that ascribe a Power to any to compleat and actuate them in their Ministration , do acknowledge that very Power by which they are informed to be in those that so informe and compleat them ; so as the very Petitioning a State for Power and qualification for Eldership and Presbytery , doth imply a Presbyteriall and Ecclesiasticall Power in that State ; and if so , the Magistrate may as well govern in that Church , as any ruling Officer they have .

5. The present Presbytery in mystery , both over and under the Magistrate .

They that are a Magistracy neither over nor under the Presbytery , tell me in what spheare or where rule they ? for over it , they are not ▪ Commissioners See Petition . they say are contrary to the Word ; and under it , they are not , for their Presbytery is accountable as they say unto ●● ▪ so as they who are so much in the dark ▪ with their Government , do with Magistracy they know not what , and would place it they know not where .

The Position being a safer way for the Magistrate then the Erastian , and how the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot justly exclude him from ruling with them , according to the present constitution both of the pretended Church and Presbytery .

THat the Magistrate or Parliament cannot be excluded from Government in this present Presbytery as the present Assembly would exclude them , because this Kingdom of England is not a Church in Gospell-order , but a Kingdom of Beleevers in generall , and because their present Presbyters and Elders are no true Presbyters of Jesus Christ according to Gospell-order ; and till both this Nationall Church and Officers be that very Kingdom of Christ , and those very Officers of Christ , the Magistrate may as lawfully , yea more lawfully rule then any other pretended Officer , Minister , or Elder amongst them ; for Magistrates have the whole Kingdome of the world allowed them from God for their place of Government : And this Kingdom of England being but a Kingdom or world of Beleevers , not a Church , they may as they are powers of God rule amongst them ; Jesus Christ being only King and head in that Church or Kingdom which is more his own , and the Magistrates Kings for him in that Kingdom which is the worlds , or lesse his own : so as the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot exclude the Civil power from governing with them according to the unsound constitution of their Church , Ministers and Elders , nor till they have proved the truth both of their very Church , Ministery , and Eldership ; for all Scripture proofes of Eldership and Presbytery is respective to the true Presbytery and Eldership ; according to Truth , not to every pretended Presbytery and Eldership of the Nations ; so as till the very Constituting Principles of Presbytery be proved ●●ue , no Scripture either alleadged for Presbytery belongs to them , nor any other by which they would exclude the Magistrate , as from the Church of Christ .

Conclusion .

These few things I have writ to draw forth the strength of others in a thing of this Nature , which is of high concernment in the things of Gospell-order , as any point now abroad ; for surely it is not a Vniversity , a Cambridge or Oxford , a Pulpii and Blacke gowne or Cloake , makes one a true Minister of Iesus Christ , though these are the best things in the composition of some the Mystery of Iniquity hath deceived the world with a False and Artificiall unction for that true one of the Spirit ; and the Ministery hath beene so cloathed with Art and Habit , that if the Apostles should live again , and preach in that plainnesse they came , they would be as despised ; for we wonder after the Wise , the Scribe , and the Disputer of this World .

FINIS .

An End of ONE CONTROVERSIE BEING An Answer or Letter to Master Ley's large last BOOKE ; called , LIGHT FOR SMOKE . One of the Assembly at WESTMINSTER : Which he writ lately against me .

In which the Summe of his last Booke , which relates to the most materiall Passages in it , is gathered up and replied to .

By Iohn Saltmarsh , not revolted ( as Master Ley saith ) from a Pastorall Calling ; but departed from the Antichristian Ministery by Bishops , and now a Preacher of the Gospell .

Isa. 5. 20. Woe be to them that put darknesse for light . Acts 19. 32. Some therefore cried one thing , and some another : for the Assembly was confused , and the most part knew not wherfore they were come together . Ver. 41. And when he had spoken this , he dismissed the Assembly .

LONDON , Printed for Giles Calvert , at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS . 1646.

THE Law of Nature giving a man leave to speake fairely in his owne just defence , and the Law of Grace requiring him to speake zealously in the defence of Truth , I thinke it equall that this answer to Mr Ley should be printed .

April 15. 1646. John Bachiler .

The LETTER . SIR ,

FOr the Controversie in substance betwixt us , I cannot think the Truth I defended , so weak as to need a new Treatise to beare it up . I see it is otherwise with you , who dare not let your former Books stand by themselves , without another to support them . It is indeed the way of the Popish Schooles to fill the world with Volumes and Tomes , and rather to astonish then convince : and this is one thing which hath made the world wonder after the Beast . There is no end in making many Books . How hath Eccles ▪ 12. 12. Truth been carried out of sight from the Reader in the Labyrinth of Replies and Rejoynders . Your selfe gives us an Experement in this Book : for , how are you puzled to let the Reader know what was yours , and what was mine at first , and what is yours again , and what was mine afterwards , and what is yours again in answer to mine , and what Truth is after all this .

I find it to be the wisdom of the Spirit of God , to leave the world a sufficiency of Scripture and Truth ; but not to write all , list the world should not contain it . And Pilate was not amisse in that : Iohn 21 ▪ 25. What I have written , ( sates he ) I have written , when they desired him to write more .

So as things being thus , I hope I shall write you as much , if not more , in One Sheet and an halfe , as you have writ me in Seve●teen : for he that writes anything of Truth , more properly writes much , then he that writes against it , though in more Paper .

The Summe of your Book is this :

1. YOur Epistles , which are a competent Treatise of themselves , and the very Cisterne of your reasoning , from whence you fill all the other Pages of your Book .

2. The parrs of my Treatise , with your Answer , or rather much of your former reply , which in things of most weight is no refutation , but a reference to other Divines , who have writ of the like subject , &c. it seems you have a common stock of learning amongst you , or a Argumentative Treasurie , to which you referre us with much ease ; but I cannot take this for good paiment , to be put over to another man , when you are bound to pay me your selfe : I could turne you over thus to as able Divines , as you do me , to Mr Tho. Goodwyn , Mr Burton , Mr Iohn Goodwyn , Mr Nye , Mr Tombes , Mr Pr●●● , Mr Burrough , Mr White , Mr Eator , Mr Den , Mr Knolls , &c.

3. The Appendix to your Book writ by a Master of Arts , whether your friend , or your selfe , for I know not whom you make the two letters C. D. to stand for ; who brings in testimonials of your abilities , learning , piety , good carriage , worth , &c. who methinks speaking so much to your praise as he doth , stands a little too neere you ; we should not seek glory one of another , our praise should be of God , not of men .

Thus I have contracted you , to save you some evill in the multitude of your words , now to your matter .

(1) THat they should counsell me , not to cry down the Government . (2) That In Epistles to Sir William S●rickland and M. Gr●●●sto● , and in Epist , to myselfe . no Presbytery Parochiall ▪ &c. assumes such power as the Prelaticall . (3) That if the question were rightly stated , men would be convinced , Magistracy and Christian Liberty would be preserved . (4) That I should restore such Tythes , if unlawfull , as I formerly received , because the sin till then is not remitted . (5) That I would have men beleeve as they list . (6) That he was wished rather to a neglect of me , then alloud conquest over me . (7) That he had rather consute Bellarmine , then my new-sprung Notions . (8) Because I am against Logick and Formes of Art , I am no right Disputant . (9) That I am an Ubiquitary in my Beleefe , because of the Opinions set down in The Smoake , &c. ( 10 ) That I am an Antinomian , and deales with some late Divines , as some with Luther . ( 11 ) That I am unstable . ( 12 ) That I glory in the quick dispatch of my worke : To which Tertullian , and some old Poetry , and other Authors , with a Story of a Noble-man and a Brewer , is brought . ( 13 ) That my Interposition is like to be no delay to the Government . ( 14 ) That he may be better imployed then in writing : and others shall undertake me .

To the first .

1. ARe you in such feares of your Government , that you make friends to me to be silent ? Is it so weak , that it may be cryed down ?

To the 2. Is Presbytery , because Parochiall , Classicall , Provinciall . lesse Tyrannicall then Episcopall , because many rule in that , and in this but one ? or rather not more Tyrannicall , because one Tyrant is not so much as many together ? Evill in a Community , is stronger & more diffusive then in Vnity .

To the 3. Is not the Question of the Presbytery yet stated ? Yea surely ? What else hath your Assembly and others been doing ? Is it not a power in your Eldership and Presbytery , how little or large soever , over the Churches and Congregations ? Independent upon the Magistrate , coercive to all that beleeve not as they beleeve , as to Hereticks and Schismaticks ? And yet men are not convinced , nor is Magistracy or Christian liberty so preserved as you say : let both the Magistrates and Christians judge , who in the mean time you would be Iudges over .

To the 4. For my restoring of Tythes , now unlawfull to me ; I have done it ; I have returned to the State my property of a full yeers Arrearage : nor did I take Tythes since I was in Kent , but the peoples free composition from the first , and being even convinced against that too , a yeere since , I forbore it . But take heed how you put forgivenesse of sin upon restitution ; for that is not only Popery , but like the Pope you would sell Pardons only to the rich , and none to the poore ; and you would put more upon Sacrifice then upon Mercy .

To the 5. Nor would I have men beleeve as they list , as you say of me : I would only not have men forced to beleeve as others list , as you or your Brethren list : I would have Faith wrought by the Spirit of God , not by the spirits of men , who have no Dominion over Faith .

To the 6. And why do you speak so of a loud Conquest over me ? Truth is not conquer'd , when the man is trampled on . It is not your being great , can make you a Conqueror , no more then your calling by the Bishops a true Presbyter .

To the 7. And for your desire rather to deale with Bellarmine then me : I did not think I had been so formidable an enemie ; but I will not presume . Indeed , Bellarmine is a more easie adversary , because he opposes the Truth ; and I , though a weake one , may be more considerable , because Truth defends me , rather then I the Truth : for I will rather make it my Champion , then my selfe a Champion for it . And for my new-sprung Notions ( as you say ) call Truth Notion , or new , or what you will ; you can never call it out of its own nature or essence : And Truth is Gods own Notion ; neither mine nor yours : and new only to the old man , not to him who after God is created in Epli. 4. 4. righteousnesse and true holinesse .

To the 8. Nor am Ilesse a Disputant in Divinity , because against Forms of Art and Logick ( as you say ) I may dispute in Christs Schoole , though refused in the Schoole of Tyrannus . And if you will challenge me in any poynt of Philosophy , I shall not refuse you there in Logick or Forms of Art . They are Forms only for the wisdom of men , not the wisdom of God . Nor dare I take my discoveries of Christ from Reason , nor seek the glory of him in Forms so much below him , and fashion the Creator like to the Creature , who is God blessed for ever . You and I must die more to vaine Philosophie , to the wisdom of the Greek , to the rudiments of the world . I allow Learning its place any where in the kingdoms of the world , but not in the Kingdom of God .

To the 9. For my being a Vbiquitary ( as you say ) in beleefe , and your proofe of this from the severall Opinions stated in my Book : Can you be so unfaithfull to that Book ? Can you , who would be counted an Orthodox , and a Divine , thus force and compell those Opinions upon me , or not rather upon the Paper only where they were printed ? Because I stated the Opinions of man , am I therfore a man of all those Opinions ? The best is , the world may convince you of this , and of my purpose in that : And now you are thus unfaithfull in a little , I may suspect you for more . Are you one of those who pretend to be in the Mount with God , and to give Laws for Religion ? Can we trust you in the more excellent mysteries of the Father , while you trifie thus , and deceive the Brethren ?

To the 10. For my being an Antinomian , If to say we serve not in the oldnesse of the Letter , but in the newnesse of the Spirit : If to say , The Law was given by Moses , but grace and truth by Jesus Christ : If to say . We are not under the Law , but under Grace : If to say , We are delivered from our enemies , that we might serve him without fear● , in holinesse , and righteousnesse : If to say , The Commandement is holy qust , and good : If to say , Shall we sin that Grace may abound ? God forbid : If this be Antinomianism , I am one of that sort of Antinomians , I know no other for my part , though you have filled the world with a noise , if this be Heresie , so worship we the God of our Fathers ; nor have I mis-quoted any , but only singled out that truth from many , in one leafe , before they spoyled it in the next , and like Pilate , who asking only what truth was , would not tarry by it , but departed .

To the 11. And for my unstablenesse : If to be sometimes darknesse , and now light in the Lord : If to put off the old man with the former lusts , and to put on the new : If to come out of Babylon when the Spirit cals : If to adde to faith , vertue ; to vertue , patience ; to patience , godliness , &c. If to grow in the encreasings of God , to a fulnesse of stature in Christ : If leaving things that are behind , and pressing to things that are before , be unstablenesse , let me be alwaies thus changing , till he who can only change our vile bodies , fashion me like unto his glorious body .

To the 12. Nor do I glory I hope in the quick dispatch of what I do : but do not you as well over deliberate , as I over dispatch and glory in that ? But are you no better acquainted with the Spirit , in the things of God ? Are we to be ever consulting with flish and bloud ? did the Disciples and Brethren when they spake the Word of God , tugge first amongst so many Schoole-men ? so many Fathers ? so many moderne Divines ? so many Commentators ? so many old Poets as you do ? Or rather , only with the Word and Spirit , and power of Christ : and for that of your Poetrie , and your Brewer , I desire not to shew so much of the old-man , or former corruption , as to sparkle so lightly with you .

To the 13. For my Interposing , being no delay to the Government ( as you ●ist . p. 1. say ) Why do you say then in other places , I presented you with a former Book , against M. Saltmarsh his Remora : And again , Mr Saltmarshs Quaere , to retard the establishment ? I pray now , be friends first with your self , before you be too much an enemie to the truth , or to me ; and though I cannot stand in the way of the establishment ; I am the least in my Fathers house ; I am but as the fli● upon the wheele ; yet truth is mighty , and of that power , as it can weigh heavie upon your Chariot-wheels , when you would be driving into the red Sea of persecution , and pursuing Israel .

To the 14. Whereas you say you are wished to be better imployed then in writing , they are your friends indeed that wish so , you cannot be worse imployed I am sure , then in speaking ill of your brethren , in advancing your selves , in Lordino it over the heritage , in tryumphing upon the vantage ground of your place , and power ; in supplicating , and at the same time judging the Magistrate ; or in a word , intreating them that they may rule , not you , or your Presbytery , but whom you allow them from your Presbytery .

And for others undertaking me , as many as please , for I feare not an host , nor a multitude of pen-men ; I see more for us then against us , I know this present Presbytery may have many pensioners ; there are such great livings of hundreds a yeers to spice the Government ; the silver shrines had many that cried great was Diana in the Ephesians .

Master Leys Treatise .

1. THe subordination of Assemblies is made good by the learned Book of Mr Rutherford against the Congregationall Independency .

2. The subordinate Presbyteries are not Churches out of Churches , as yours Pag. 12. are , not in such singularity , with free choyce , more conveniencies in Parishes , more for preservation of Peace , more agreeable to the Apostles , Acts 15. more authorized Pag. 13. by Parliament .

That tythes are spoken against by those that scruple not at slander or sacriledeg , Pag. 19. 20. that they usurp upon God and his Ministers that alienate them from his Worship and Service .

That Old men are more honourable then the Young , therefore called Senators , Pag , 25 , 26. Elders , Sages ; that Dreams are more glorious then Visions , because of more Communion with God in the sleep , then waking , and because of many Divine things revealed in dreames , and that John was old when he had his vision .

That it is lawfull to jest at mis-application of Scripture by Gods example in Pag. 40. Gen. by Eliahs by others , &c.

That the other Church-Government comes not under such tryals of the Pag. 54. Parliament , as Presbytery , but is set up without their authority .

That Gospell-patternes are as much in the Letter , as the Legall , because Pag. 62. written .

That Mr. Prinn , Dr. Bastwick , Mr Burton , Mr Lilburne were cruelly Pag. 82. used by the Bishops . Mr Lilburne whipped from Fleet-Bridge to Westminster , so cruelly , that the cords bruised his shoulders , and made them swell as bigg as a penny ●oase ; and the Warden made him be gagged , as if he would teare his jawes .

Answer .

THat the graduall subordination is made good by Mr Rutherford , &c. Is this reasoning or reference ? And this you have done all along , referred to 9. us either to your selfe , or some other to answer for you .

That your Presbyteries are not so singular , more free , convenient , more to 21. peaceable , more Apostolicall , more Authorized then other Churches : These are good commendations ; but had halfe so much been proved by the Word , your Government had passed before this .

For that of Sacriledge , and usurpation upon God in alienating Tythes ; never did Prelate , no nor Bishop Mountague plead an higher title for 3. tythes . What sacriledge and usurpation to deny Tythes ? Where are you ? in the Covenant , or no ? is it not a Parliament Ordinance you take them by ? and will you set up a Divine Right over that now ? surely they may justly now withdraw their Ordinance for Tythes , and leave you to your Divine Right , and see what the people will pay you .

To that of your commending old men and age ; I reverence age , and old 4. men , but not the old man in them . And for dreames being more excellent then visions ; It is a curious speculation , and enough may be said for both ; yet if you take Visions more spiritually , they are a more glorious way of Revelation Acts 2. then that of dreames : but what are these dreames to yours ? Surely Reformation in bloud , or by persecution , is but a dream of such as have slept long in Prelacie .

Why are you so much in the defence of jeasting and so serious in your 5. Scripture proofes for it ? take heed of strengthening corrupt nature by Scripture ; God and Eliah saw errors more cleerely then you or I , who may assoon laugh at the Scripture it selfe , as something beside it .

And for other Church-Governments not comming under the tryall of 6. Parliament , nor comming out by their authority , I know not any that would not humbly lay downe their Scripture-order to that honourable Senate , and rejoyce that they would take it up to discusse , and for not comming out under their authority ; I know none of the rest so ambitious or troublesome to the Magistrate , as to solicite them to compell their order upon all their Brethren , and all must be Hereticks and Schismaticks that will not though they cannot beleeve so

For Gospell-patterns being as much in the letter as the Legall , because written , are you such a stranger to the Spirits notion of Letter and Spirit in the New Testament ? Know you not that the Temple or Legall Worship before was said to be in the Oldnesse of the Letter ? Know you not that Gospell-patternes are more seen by the Spirit now , then before ? and though both be written , and in Letter , yet not both equally litterall , but the one more glorious in the ministration , the other lesse .

For that of the sufferer● , Mr Prynn , Mr Burton , Mr Lilburne , and Mr Bestwick ; And Mr Lilbourne written in such capitall Letters of bl●●●d , as you justly say ; and can you name these , and call for the power in your hands as you do ? Can you thus remember Prelates , and yet petition to be such Presbyters ? Can you see these yet bleeding , and desire to persecute by such a President of Bloud ?

FOr Salmasius his testimony , with the Baptisme in the name of the Lord Iesus Christ : and his testimony that the Presbyter● is but of humane and positive right , not of Divine ; He is mine , and not yours , and all you● paines and quarrelling , and after quotations cannot make him more yours , or lesse mine . and it is no little disadvantage to you , that one so great a Schollar , as your whole Assembly affords any , hath thus witnessed with the truth , which so many Schollars oppose .

C. D. his Treatise printed with Master Ley's Book , in Master Ley's Commendation : whether made by himselfe , or some other , he best knows .

HIs Title is , One of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster . Pag. 4. And there you might have known of what account he was among his Reverend Brethren .

He was chosen Chaire man of the Committée of examination of Ministers , and of the Committée of Printing ; and one of the Tryers , and one of the Ordainers of Ministers ; next after the two Doctors , Chaire-man . [ I remember not any of the Apostles in such Offices and Titles .

You might have known him by his Pattern of Piety , his Book on the Sabbath ; by divers Sermons of his ●● Print , his Annotations on the Pentateuch : and he hath much more prepared for the Presse then is already printed : All which are approved by those most able to judge of iudicious and learned Laboure . [ Give them leave to speak themselves in this point .

The Greek Anagram made on his name when President of Sion Colledge ; THE SUN IN SION ; with Verses . [ If the Sun be there , why no more Light there then ?

For his Name , you would think it too venerable , &c. John in the Hebrew signifies Grace ; and Ley in Spanish , the Law .

With some Letters in his Commendation , in pag. 19 , 20. &c.

THus I have gathered up all in your Book that concernes you materially , and your friend printed on the backside of yours : And for other particulars more substantiall , your Books and mine are both abroad ; let them speak for themselves : the Readers must now judge in the Spirit , what we both write in the Letter ; for I intend not to puzzle the world with any more of this Controversie . Some Truth may be seen : and what is more , is but you and I.

SIR , I was unwilling to set your failings before you and the world : but since you printed them once over in mistake , I thought I might print them over in a cleerer letter , that you may see things for Errours , which before you took for Truths .

Conclusion .

THus I have replyed to your Positions , not to your passions nor reproaches ; in which you are something larger then I had thought becomes an Orthodex Divine .

And for the dirt you cast in my face , I have only wiped it off , without casting it back on yours : I had rather let it fall in the Channell , which best becomes it .

For your Revilings , sleightings and railings , if they trouble not your selfe to write , the Presse to print , and the Reader to read , I promise you they trouble not me . And though I am much below many , yet I am in this above you , that I can forgive you , by how much he that can pardon , is greater then he that offends .

I thanke you for your ill usage : you cannot do that against me which works not for my good ; for I am learning to blesse them that curse me , to pray for them that despightfully use me .

And truly this advantage I shall make of your taxing me for faults which I have not , To taxe my selfe of the many other faults which I have indeed , which you and the world see not .

FINIS .

REASONS FOR Vnitie , Peace , and Love , WITH AN ANSWER ( Called Shadows flying away ) to a Book of Mr Gataker one of the Assembly , intituled , A Mistake , &c. and the Book of the namelesse Author , called , The Plea : both writ against me .

And a very short ANSWER , in a word , to a Book by another namelesse Author , called An After-reckoning with Master Saltmarsh ; and to Master Edwards his Second Part , called Gangrena , directed to me .

Wherein many things of the Spirit are discovered , Of Faith and Repentance , &c. Of the Presbytery : And some things are hinted , to the undeceiving of people in their present Ministers .

By John Saltmarsh , Preacher of the Gospell .

Acts 7. 26. Sirs , ye are brethren ; why do ye wrong one to another ?

LONDON , Printed for Giles Calvert , at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS . 1646.

Reader ,

IN this Answer to Master Gataker , I conceive thou hast a taste of the true Notion both of the sweetnesse and glory of the Gospell .

Imprimatur ,

May 26. 1646. IOHN BACHILER .

To the Right Honourable , the Lord Maior , Aldermen , and the Common-Councell of the City of LONDON . Right Honourable ,

MAny who call themselves Ministers and Prophets of God , accuse us of Heresie and Schism before ye . But I hope ye will take notice they are but men as we are , and of like passions with us ; neither Apostles , nor Prophets of the first Baptism , or gifts of the Spirit . Yet if the Priests and Elders , or any Oratour , as Tertullus , accuse Paul to Festus or Agrippa , be cannot but answer for himselfe .

I have but few words to speak to ye ( Noble Citizens ) That ye would in that Spirit which is of God , judge the Doctrines of Men , and single them from Traditions , Customes , Councels , Synods , Interests . Ye are bid to try the spirits whether they be of God , or no.

Try whether it be according to God , for some Ministers , and those not Apostles , to call others Hereticks who beleeve not as they beleeve : What will become then of the strong and weak Christian , of the Rom , 15. 1. 1 Iohn 2 : 13 , 14. children , fathers , and young men ?

Trye whether they ought to preach to ye to suppresse all but themselves ; since they are not infallible , but may erre ; and where is the Remedy then , if they erre ? Who shall judge the Iudges ?

Try whether this make for unity of spirit , to allow no more fellowship nor brotherhood then in Horme and practice . And what will they have ye do if Formes should alter ? For States may change : England hath done so .

Try whether this make for the glory of Christians , to persecute or banish ( as they would have ye ) all but themselves . May they not as well tell ye that God hath made England only for men of the Presbytery or one opinion to live in , and worship in : And where find they that ?

Trye whether some by their daily Invectives from Presse and Pulpit against Independent's and others , bring not in the Popish Designe in another Forme , to divide the godly party , both Presbyterian and Independent , and so to ruine all .

Try if all such Doctrine as they commonly preach and write to ye , resolve not it selfe most into their own interests , profits , place , power : And what doth the Scripture and Histories tell ye of that ?

And now I have done ; praying for ye ,

That ye may be still a free City , and not disputed by the miscelany of Logick and Divinity of some , into bondage .

That ye may be still populous , and not your streets growing with grasse through any un neighbourly Principle of Persecution , which must needs lose ye many , and much resort from this famous City , under the name of Hereticks , not letting such live beside them .

That ye may be a peaceable City , and not raised up and dashed by any breath of men against the other and greater part of your selves , the Parliament . England hath long enough broken it selfe against its own walls : let it now be our strength to sit still , and to stand still and see salvation .

And since the Lord hath let the most of the successe of the Presbytery , which is so much desired , come thorow the hands of those and that Army whom they have told ye over often were Hereticks ; let this be but taken notice on by ye , what God hath told ye in the successe of that Army ; and I trust ye will never regard the Messengers by whose hands the Presbytery in a kind came , by beating them out of doores . Thus rests he ,

Who would rejoyce in your Peace , Prosperity , and GOSPELL-unity , JOHN SALTMARSH .

REASONS FOR Vnity , Peace , & Love .

THe Nations and Kingdoms of the world shall bring their glory to Christ , and be at peace with all his , according to the Prophesies , isai. 11 6 , 7 , 8. Revel. 21. 26. Isai . 49. 23. And how happy is that Nation or Kingdom which shall be first in this truth , and have rather a peace of Prophesie , than Policie , a peace of God , than man . How happy shall this Kingdom be to fulfill any of this Prophesie , of peace to one another , and to the Saints .

That all Kingdoms , and Nations , and Princes , and People , prospered according to their love to Christ , and his : Pharaoh for Ioseph , Ahasuerus for Mordecai , Artaxerxes for Nehemiah and the people of the Iews ; and those Nations have been ever nations of bondage and tyranny to themselves , which became so first to the Saints .

That Ierusalem hath been ever a burdensome stone , and a cup of trembling to all that oppressed her , and the stone cut out of the Mountaine without hands , too mighty for all the Mountaines of the world : And the bloud of the Saints , where-ever spilled , and where ever found in literall or mysticall Babylon , never left crying , till that very place had bloud given them to drink for in her was found the bloud of the Prophets .

That the true Peace indeed , is more spirituall and comprehensive then men usually think it , and takes in severall natures , nations , people , languages , of every tongue and kindred ; so , severall spirits , consciences , judgements , opinions ; not a Peace only of such or such an Opinion ; not a Peace only of such or such a Society ; of such or such a Body ; not a Peace of Presbytery only , nor Independency only , nor Anabaptisme only , but a Peace of All , so far as that all , or many may be one , which is that unity of spirit in the bond of peace .

That true Peace is an enemy to all selfish interest , and selfish preservation , and selfish unity , or selfish peace ; because that when Uinity , Peace , Preservation , gathers up from that common interest Peace and Unity , to which they are appointed by the law of Creation , and Institution , and becomes only their own , and not anothers , their own peace , their own unity , their own preservation , they breaking that law of the Spirit , and Communion of their first Creation , each perishes in their single , private and unwarrantable way of saving themselves ; And the eye saith unto the hand , I have no need of thee , and the head to the foot , I have no need of you .

That there is no such impossibility of being one under divers Opinions , as we are made beleeve , no more then there was for those that eat flesh , and those that eat herbs ; for those that regarded a day , and those that regarded it not ; for those that used milke , and those that eat stronger meat ; for those that were zealous of the Law , and those that were more in the Gospell , to be one , or together , or to please one another to edefication . Did Paul bid the eaters of flesh call the eaters of herbs , hereticks ? or them that regarded a day , the others that regarded it not , hereticks ? or them that were zealous of the Law , them that were of the Gospell , Heretickes ? or thus ; Flesh-eaters , and Day-regarders , and Legalists ? as we doe , Presbyterians , Independents , Anabaptists .

That there is so much in every one of these , wherein they appeare to stand in need of one another , that the Presbyterian cannot say , I have no need of the Independent ; nor the Independent , I have no need of the Presbyterian ; nor either of them say , we have no need of you Anabaptist : For , the Presbyterian may need the Independent , because he is for a purer Communion of Saints then he ; They both the Anabaptist , because he baptizeth Beleevers , as the Apostles alwayes did : They both the Seekers , because none of them have these Ordinances by the first patterne in the Word , as by Apostleship and Baptisme of Spirit : Nor these the Presbyterians , because there may be some gift , some power of the Spirit , some principle of Administration in them , which may help the Body , and the Common-wealth , or Parliament . All these , because they are all members of the same State .

That Love is the more excellent way revealed , then either the way of Gifts , or Ordinances , and therefore no gift or ordinance is to be preferred 1 Gen. 12. 31. 31. 2. before love : Love neither envies , nor vaunts , nor behaves it self unseemly , but beareth all things , and hopeth all things : and this is that love which is of God , and extends it self as God , and comprehends and embraces men ; not as this man , or that man , meerely ; not as a man of this , or that opinion : but because it is love from the fountaine of infinite love ▪ it flowes upon all , and hath a kind of peace with all , and loves all : God is love ; and therefore just and unjust good and bad , are taken into something of him , seeing he giveth to all things life and breath , and all things : and the more this love is amongst men , the more they love as God , and the more large in love , and universall in love . That love which is only to one kind , is but low , narrow , and naturall , the meer love of creatures as creatures ▪ but that love which can love those of other kinds ; as Presbyterian , Anabaptist , Independent , is not that love of a creature only : so as the more we love any that are not as we are , the lesse we love as men , and the more as God .

That the first and most glorious and spirituall unity is that of spirit ; and therefore things that are outward , formall , and perish with using , nor any Ordinance , were ever made an hinderance to that unity : let not Christians think they cannot be One , nor in any communion of spirit , till they be like one another in the body first , and in the Ordinance first , which it may be they never shall be , for we see God hath hid outward Ordinances deepest from discovery ; so as they that find most , find but pieces and parcels , and one one part , and another another part , and another another part , all finde not all , because all should not want one another , and we find these things last , because there was lesse need : how many hundred yeares from Christ , and nothing of these ? yet Christ was knowne , and some of the more spirituall glory of Christ : and if Christians should not be one , till they be like one another , how little would the peace be ? even as little as that unity they contend for : and what peace would it be , but that of flesh and forme , the peace of Ordinances , not of Spirit . I desire this may be considered , that according to the first patterne , the Baptisme of the Spirit , or Gifts and Ordinances , were together , never asunder , from the Apostles times to the falling away : and let there be a Word held out for Ordinances by themselves without the like Gifts , or else let us be in more unity of Spirit then we are .

Christians are truly so alike , and so one and the same , as they are one in Christ in union and spirit , one in God , as they partake of the Divine nature of the Image of Christ , as they are branches in the same Vine , members in the same body : so God loves all his , as they are of him , born of the incorruptible seed , being the glory of the second Adam , quickned by that life , that eternall life : God looks not ▪ nor loves not , as men are Presbyterians , or Independents , or Anabaptists , we commonly love so , who begin to love at the outward man before the inward : God loves us first as in Christ , and loves us because in Christ ; God loves according to the figure of himself in us , and so we should love one another , if we will love according to God : let Papists love Papists only , and Prelates love Prelates only , because they are so ; let us love according to that of spirit , we discerne by the same spirit in each , according to that of love , faith , meeknesse , patience , purity , faithfulnesse , glory , which are the fruits of the Spirit : let us love , as we judge , and that is in spirit , as spiritually discerning according to fruits of righteousnesse and holinesse , not according to this and that forme which is carnall : for as he is not a Jew , which is one outwardly , no more is he a Christian , which is one outwardly , circumcision and Christianity is not of the letter , but of the spirit ; so as loving thus , we should not thinke nor speake against these , and these , because they are not Presbyterians as we are , because they beleeve not as we beleeve , and think not as we think .

Were it not madnesse to fight , because we are not like one another in the face , in feature , in complection , in disposition , in a word , because we are not alike in body ? and what were it lesse to sight with one another , because we are not alike in the Spirit , in soule , in judgement , in conscience , in opinion ? If the whole body were the eye , where were the hearing ? If the whole were hearing , where were the smelling ?

The lesse we endeavour this bond of peace , the more we shall take in new fuell to our old fire , the more advantage and opportunity will be opened to let in the old remainders of the war amongst us , which shall be as a train of powder to kindle us into new contentions ; and thus new divisions will spring out from the ashes of the old , and those whom we conquer one day , will be conquerors amongst us another day , and we shall not know them from some of our selves , and all our victories and conquests will be but the enemies design of recruiting our misery ; they whom we subdue , finding the veine of enmity running through Presbytery and Independency , will soone gird themselves to battle in those Notions , and we shall never want enough of Presbytery and Independency , till they undo us after our own fashion : and if they cannot kill us as Cavaliers and Malignants ; in this new way , they may kill us as Presbyters and Independents . And surely they will have so much Iesuitisme , as never to let us starve for Hereticks and Schismaticks : the Iesuits run commonly over to the Lutherans , and raile there against Calvinists and so they never want matter for division in Germany ; it is the great design of Conclaves and Popish Councels , to practice upon States in their own religions and customes , and to turne us back into Popery , by being Protestants amongst us , and to raise up new troubles by changing the old , and by transfiguring their enmity ; Satan himselfe can be an Angell of light , when he cannot passe as a power of darknesse , and where works he thus but in the children of disobedience ? And Brethren , let us not let our enemies in at back-do●res , of Presbytery and Independency : let us not undo our selves when God would save us : let us see that these workings are but the old designe in a new Forme .

The last reason is : People are not wholly undeceived in their present Ministers . And to that end consider ,

1. That these Ministers who tell them thus , and preach thus , are neither as Aaron was nor as the Prophets were , nor as the Apostles were , nor have such an infallible gift , nor spirit of discerning , so as their words and Sermons are no more to be beleeved then the words of the Scripture proves , and people are to trie all and to trie spirits , and so trust , and now ( friends ) not beleeve Sermons too suddenly , because their Sermons are not very Scripture , but interpretation to their light , and light may be darkned with carnall reason and interest .

2. That these Ministers who preach so for Presbytery through bloud and persecution now , did but a few yeers since preach as confidently for the Service-book , for Bishops , or against the Presbytery , & our Brethren of Scotland .

3. That these Ministers that preach nothing but Presbitery , Government , and Divine Right , yet never tryed it in their lives , nor lived in the experience of it , but have it by report , and by Idaea , or modell , or Landship from other Countreys , and some specious Scriptures .

4. That these Ministers who would presse the Covenant against Popery and Episcopacy root and branch , yet will be content , though Bishops be unlawfull , to say the Bishops hands which ordained them are not ; and that Bishops could make them Ministers of Christ , though they were Antichrist themselves , and that Episcopacy could make a lawfull Ministery .

5. That these Ministers who preached against Deanes , and Archdeacons , and Prelates , as unlawfull , can be content very well with their maintenance ; their tythes are not popish , nor the profits nor revenues are not against Covenant : ( people ) look a little into these men , that hold there is no popery in any thing that makes them rich , or maintaines them : is this the doctrine of the crosse , and selfe-deniall ?

6. That these Ministers who preached against Pluralities , yet now a Mr Seaman , Mr. Vines , Mr. Hill , Mr. Segwick , &c. mastership of a Colledge , and a great Living or two of some hundreds a yeer , with Chaplainships , as they commonly have , and two or three great Lectures in conjunction with a great Living , is not Plurality , nor must be accounted so : Nay , for a Presbyter to have two livings is no plurality now , but for a Prelate to have them is undoubtedly so . By the same tenure the Prelates formerly lived at Court , and in Lords houses , and held Livings , as they in the Assembly , now , by their attendance there .

7. That these Ministers who pretend to so much light and certainty of truth ; yet after two yeers reasoning and proofe , have not been able to prove their way of Government from Scripture ; so as there are so many excellent Quaeries propounded from the Honourable Parliament , which lye unanswered , unlesse the Ministers intend to resolve the Parliament some other way , by making the tumults more , and their answers lesse ; for their books and Sermons speak no lesse . Was ever Reformation , but where the Red Dragon is in the Pulpit , preached for in so much bloud ? and I pray ( friends ) are all things so true as they tell you ? our greatest and wisest Counsell can see no such thing in it yet : and since you expect your Government from the Parliament , I pray go not before them in your judgements , but stay and examine as they do .

8. That the mystery of the Popish Ministery hath ever been to lead the people , and stir up the people , either by merit , or martyrdome , or ministery : and therefore the poore soules of England had given away all their Lands once to Monks and Friers , and would all fight for the Holy Land , and the Kings and Princes their power to do with as they pleased : and all was , as the Priest said , for Religion too , all as the Holy Church said : and now merit , martyrdome , and ministery carry all before them yet , in some measure , though not in so much : England hath seen so much , as to take much of their lands again , and Tythes again from the Ministery ; and the Parliaments have seen so much as a little to debate Religion with the Synods : and this Parliament hath seen more , by how much they have reasoned , disputed , quaeried with their Ministers : When did ever England see so much liberty before ? when durst Parliaments talke with their Ministers till now ? And ( friends ) let not the old Popish things of merit , martyrdome , and ministery , carry us away as they did . I remember an excellent saying reported of Generall Lesley to our Nobles and G●ntry , when they were ready to fight for Bishops , to this purpose , Shall we lose our bloud for so many fat Swingers ? And I pray , are not these the Sons of the Swingers according to ordination , ordained and called by Bishops ? Is our bloud too good for Bishops , and not for Presbyters , as some think ?

9. That these Ministers who seem to close with those whom they so lately called , and preached against as Malignants and Cavaliers , yet cannot love them , or use them otherwise then in designe to help up with the Government , and then leave them , und persecute them under the same Notion with us as Hereticks , using them now , as the Israelites did the Gibeonites , as hewers of wood , and drawers of water ; and then what will become of these poore soules , who having helped up the Presbyters into the roome of the Bishops , to be sure they shall neither have Common-prayer-book , nor Surplice , nor Bishops , nor Sacraments ; for the Directory shall keep out the Common-Prayer-book , and Presbyters shall keepe out Bishops , and Elders shall keep out all Communicants of such and such sins , and Vniformity will keep out Conformity : And if ye hope for better , by the bustle and differences , and sideings ; Issues and successe are in Gods hand , not in ours : Ye may know when ye begin , but not when ye end ; and they will be first in the Presbytery , before ye in the Prelacy . Therefore consider things .

10. That these Ministers , though some of them were old Non-conformists , and have a power of God in them , ( which I desire to love under any Forme ) yet according to their Interests they are not so , nor to the flesh they are not so , and it is their old man I write against , not their new ; so far as they are men , and so far as they are persecuters , so far as they are lovers of gaine , not of godlinesse , so far as they are accusers of their Brethren , so far as they are in the Forme of Godlinesse , not in the power : Therefore consider , these men are not all spirit and truth , we are not to call one of them Iubiter , nor the other Mercurius ; They are men of like passions with us , and ye ; and the worst I wish ( saving their humour of Persecution ) is that the Lord would make them love us in the Spirit , and we shall in all love allow them their Formes .

To Mr. GATAKER . SIR ,

I Hope I shall answer all things materiall in your Book ; but your Margin I shall not meddle with : I observe , you commonly in all your books fill that with things , and Authors , of little value to Christ crucified ; As in your last leafe , where you quote Sophecles the Poet , comparing your selfe to an old prancing horse . I should not rebuke your yeers , but that I find you Comicall and Poeticall ; and for my part , I am now ashamed to own those Raptures , though I am young , having tasted straines of a more glorious Spirit ; how much more you that are old , and call your selfe a Divine , ought not to have any fruit in those things ?

I hope I shall be in no more passion with you , than with your Brother of the Assembly , Mr Ley. I write to edifie , not to conquer ; nor to teach others , but that we may be all taught of God .

JOHN SALTMARSH . To the Author of the PLEA for the Congregationall , or ( as he should have said ) Parishionall Government . SIR ,

A word to you the Author of the Plea . You have so entangled and wrapped your selfe in the Congregationall and Church-principles , as if you meant to engage me at once against your Presbytery , and the dissenting Brethren . But that Spirit which makes me oppose you , makes me discerne your designe , and so I hope I shall single you from them ; though you have cloathed your selfe in their Apologeticall Narration , yet I must deale with you as your self , and your Brethren , not as theirs ; and it is but a little I have to say to you . But why no Name ? Is your Divine Right so questionable , that you will not own it ? or are you one of them that sit too neare it to commend it with open face , and think you may better , and more modestly do it in disguise , and without a name ? Had I not some reason to suspect it came from some of that sort , I had passed it by with as little noise as it came abroad : And I have but little to say to you now ; I cannot stand long wrangling in things that grow clearer and clearer every day , for the day breaks , and the shadowes flie away .

SHADOWES FLYING AWAY : Or , A Reply to Master Gataker's Answer to some passages in Master Saltmarsh his Booke of FREE-GRACE .

Master Gataker . (1) THat he was traduced by one Master John Saltmarsh , a man unknown to him , save by one or two Pamphlets , as witnessing to the Antinomian party . (2) That he must unbowell and lay open some of the unsound stuffe . (3) That some think they have found out a shorter cut to Heaven . (4) That my inferences upon his words are not true , nor as he intended : As if a Protestant with a Papist disputing about the Masse , should say the Controversie is not concerning the nature of Sacraments , &c. Answ.

To the first , that you were traduced by me : Let not you and I be judge of that : both our Books are abroad ; and I have quoted your words to the very leafe where they are . Your meaning I could not come at : the deep things of the heart are out of the power of anothers quotation .

For my selfe unknown to you but by two Pamphlets : I take your sleighting : I could call your Treatises by a worse name then Treatises ; for I knew one of them some yeers since , that of L●ts , wherein you defended Cards and Dice-playing : And it had been happy for others as well as my selfe , in my times of vanity , had you printed a Retractation . I beleeve you strengthened the hands of many to sin . I know you love ancient Writers well , by your Margin and quotations . And I pray remember how Augustine honoured Truth as much by confessing Errours as professing Truths . What fruit should you and I have of these things whereof we are now ashamed ?

For your witnessing to the Antinomian party against your will : Is that your fault , or mine ? Nor am I to judge of your reserves , and secret senses , but of words and writings . Nor is it an Antinomian party I alleadge you to countenance : but a Party falsly traduced and supposed so : a Party called

Antinomian by you , and others , and then writ against : A setting up Hereticks to deceive the world , and then telling the world such and such are the men . You may make more by this trick , then you find so .

To the Second , that you will lay open the unsound stuffe : I shall not be unwilling , I hope , to be told my failings : but I must look to the stuffe you bring in the roome of mine , and entreat others to trye the soundnesse of yours It is not my saying , that mine is sound , will make it better ; nor your saying it is unsound , can make it worse . Let every ones work be proved , and then he shall have whereof to boast .

To your Third , of some finding out a shorter cut to Heaven then some former Divines : I know not what you meane by shorter cuts . The Papists find a way , they say , to Heaven by works , some Protestants by Jesus Christ and works , and others by Jesus Christ alone , and make works the praise of that Free grace in Jesus Christ : And is that a shorter cut then theirs , as you call it ? or rather , a clearer revelation of Truth ? Methinks you expressions have too much of that which Solomon cals frowardnesse in old men . Argue , and prove , and bring Scripture as long as you please , but be not too quarrelsome . But I shall excuse you in part , because you tell us you are not yet recovered from sicknesse : so as I take this , with other of your Books , as part or remainders of your disease , rather then your judgement ; and the infirmity of your body , not the strength of your spirit . But why chose you not a better time to trie Truth in , when you were not so much in the body ?

To the Fourth , That nothing lesse was intended by you : I undertook not to discover your intents to the world . You might have don well to have revealed your selfe more at first , that I might not have taken you to be more a friend to Truth then I see you are : forgive me this injury , as the Apostle saies ▪ if I accounted you better then you desire to be . Love hopeth all things ▪ and beleeveth all things . And Paul it seems was better perswaded of Agrippa then there was cause , and quoted some of the Heathen Poets better then they intended them , as it seems I have done with you ; that being the greatest thing you lay to my charge .

Master Gataker . (1) That our Antinomian Free grace is not the same with that of the Prophets in the Old Testament , and the Apostles in the New . (2) That in saying the Old Testament was rather a draught of a Legall dispensation , then an Evangelicall or Gospell-one , was to taxe the Ministery of the Prophets for no Free-grace . (3) That in saying the Ministers now by the qualifications they preach , do over-heat Free-Grace as your poore soules cannot take it , doth make the Prophets , Iuglers and deluders of the people . Answer .

To your first , That our Antinomian Free Grace , is not the same with the Prophets and Apostles : Why do you tell us of Antinomians , of Prophets and Apostles Free-grace ? It is not the Free-grace of any of these : Free-grace is of God in Jesus Christ ; Prophets and Apostles are but dispencers of it , and Ambassadours of it , and Ministers of it ; and yet Ambassadours not in the same habit : The Prophets preached Grace in a rough and hairy garment , or , more Legally ; the Apostles in a more clear and bright habit , in the revelation of the mystery of Christ : The Law was given by Moses , but Grace and Truth by Iesus Christ . I could as easily say , Master Gatakers Free-grace , and the Legalists Free-grace , as he sayes Our Antinomian Free-grace ; but such words and reproaches make neither you nor I speake better truth .

To your Second , That in saying the Old . Testament straine was rather Legall then Gospell , taxes the Ministery of the Prophets for no Free-grace : That is according to your Inference only . Because the Spirit sayes , the Law was given by Moses , therefore will you put upon the Spirit , that Moses taught or gave out nothing but Law ? Because I say , The Old Testament was a Legall ministration , therefore do I say there was no Free-grace in it ? or doe I not rather say , Therefore it was Free-grace legally dispenced , or preached , or ministred ? Would not such Inferences be bad dealing with the Spirit , and will it be faire dealing with me ? I wonder you who pretend to write against me , as having not dealt justly with your sense , will deale so unjustly with mine , and commit the same sin your self , in the very time of your reproving mine . You may see what this Logick hath brought you to , To deceive your selfe , as well as your neighbour . Can you cast out my mote , and behold , a beame in your own eye ?

I have printed all you quoted : let the Reader judge from this and compare it with the rest of my Book .

The whole frame of the Old Testament was a draught of Gods anger at sin . — And God in this time of the Law appeared only as it were upon tearmes and conditions of reconciltation : and all the Worship then , and acts of Worship then , as of Prayer , Fasting , Repentance , &c. went all this way , according to God under that appearance . And in this straine ( saith he ) runnes all the Ministery of the Prophets too , in their exhortations to Duty and Worship , as if God were to be appeased and entreated , and reconciled , and his love to be had in way of purchase by Duty , and Doing , and Worshipping : So as under the Law , the efficacy and power was put as it were wholly upon the Duty and Obedience performed , as if God upon the doing of such things , was to be brought into tearmes of peace , mercy and forgivenesse ; so as their course and service then , was as it were a working for life and reconciliation .

Do not these words and termes inserted , As it were , and , in the way , and , as if , and , is it were , cleare me from such positive and exclusive assertions of Free-Grace as you would make me speak ?

To the Third , That in saying the Preachers with their qualifications over-heate Free-grace , I doe by that make the Prophets deluders of the people , &c. I answer : That way of preaching the Prophets used , pressing , as you say , Repentance , Reformation , Humiliation , and with Commination , and the Law , &c. was but according to the way , and method , and straine the Spirit taught them under the Old Testament : but if the Prophets should have held forth Jesus Christ under the New Testament , and when Christ was manifested in the flesh , with such vails over him , and so much Law over him , as they did before , they had sinned against the glory of that ministration , as well as some of you , who bring Christ back againe under the cool shadow of the Law , and make that Sun of Righteousnesse that he warmes not so many with the love of him as he would doe , if ye would let them behold with open face as in a glasse the glory of the Lord , and if you would give his beams more liberty to shine upon them ; doth not the ministration of the Spirit exceed in glory ?

Nor were the Prophets deluders of the people then , because it was the peoples time of Pupillage , and being under Bondage ; they were shut up under the Law till faith came ; they were under Tutors and Governors till the time appointed : So as that was truth , and right dispensation in them to preach so much of the Law , of curse , and judgement , &c. as they did ; and of Repentance and Reformation in that straine they did : But in ye who pretend to preach Christ come in the flesh ; ye who pretend to be Preachers in the Kingdome of God , and so greater then the greatest Prophet , then he that was more then a Prophet ; in ye , such preaching were delusion , because it were not as the truth is in Christ , nor according to that glory of the Gospell , to that grace revealed , to that manifestation of Christ in the flesh , to that ministration of glory ; but rather to those deceitfull workers the Apostle speaks on , to those that troubled them with words , subverting their souls , who preached Law and Gospell , Circumcision and Christ . Acts 5. 24.

Master Gattaker . (1) That we gird at those that bid men repent , and be humbled , and be sorry Matth. 18. 3. 16. 23. Luk 14. 16. Luk. 14. ●3 . for sinnes , and pray , &c. as Legall Teachers . (2) That Christ preached repentance , humiliation self-deniall , conversion , renouncing all in purpose : this is not the same Gospell with that they preach , as in Free-grace , pag. 125 , 126 , 152 , 153 , 163 , 191 , 193. Answer .

To your first , for our girding at those that bid men repent , and be humbled , &c. as Legall teachers : If ye presse repentance and humiliation legally , why wonder ye at such words as Legall teachers ? Will ye doe ill , and not be told of your faults ? must we prophesie smooth things to you , and say ye are able Ministers of the New Testament , when we are perswaded that truth is detained in unrighteousnesse ? We blame not any that bid men repent , or be sorry for sinne , &c. be humble , &c. if they preach them as Christ and the Apostles did ; as graces flowing from him , and out of his fulnesse , and not as springings of their owne , and waters from their fountaines ; as if the teachers , like Moses , would make men beleeve they could with such Rods and exhortations , smite upon mens hearts as upon rocks , and bring waters out of them , be they never so hard and stony . We agree with you , that repentance , and sorrow for sinne , and humiliation , and self-deniall , are all to be preached , and shall contend with you , who preaches them most , and clearest : but then , because Iohn said Repent , and Christ said Repent , and Peter said Repent ; are we to examine the Mystery no farther ? Know we not that the whole Scripture in its fulnesse and integrality reveales the whole truth ? and must we not looke out , and compare Scripture with Scripture , spirituall things with spirituall , and so finding out truth from the degrees , to the glory and fulnesse of it , preach it in the same glory and fulnesse as we find it ? We heare Christ preaching before the Spirit was given , Repent ; and we find , when the Spirit was given , Christ is said to give Repentance to Israel , and forgivenesse of sinnes ; and shall we not now preach Jesus Christ , and Repentance in Jesus Christ the fountaine of repentance , the author of repentance , and yet preach repentance , and repentance thus , and repentance in the glory of it more ? The Apostle in one place saith , Beleeve in the Lord Iesus Christ , and thou shalt be saved ; and in another place , He is the author and finisher of our Faith ; Shall we not now preach Iesus Christ first ? and Iesus Christ the fountaine , and Iesus Christ the author of faith and beleeivng , and yet preach faith ; yea and thus preach faith , faith in the glory , faith in the revelation of it , faith from Christ , and faith in Christ ?

One Scripture tels us godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation , &c. And another tels us , They shall look on him whom they have peirced , and they shall mourne for him , &c. Shall we not now preach sorrow for sin took from Christ , Christ piercing , and wounding , and melting the heart ; Christ discovering sin , and powring water upon drie ground ? this is sorrow for sin in the glory of the Gospell .

One Scripture bids , He that will follow me , let him deny himselfe , and take up his crosse . Another saith , It is he that worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure , and I am able to do all things through Christ that strenghneth me . Shall we not now preach Christ our strength , and Christ our selfe-deniall ? and is not this selfe-denyall in the glory of the Gospell ?

So as the difference betwixt us is this ; Ye preach Christ and the Gospell , and the graces of the Spirit in the parts as ye find it : we dare not speak the mystery so in peices , so in halfe and quarter revealings ; we see such preaching answers not the fulnesse of the Mystery , the riches of the Gospell , the glory of the New Testament : We find that in the fulnesse of the New Testament , Christ is set up as a Prince , as a King , as a Lord , as a crown and glory to every grace and gift : nay , he is made not only righteousnesse , but sanctification too ; and so we preach him . Whereas to preach his riches without him , his graces by themselves single , and private ; as , repent , and beleevs , and be humbled , and deny your selves , ye make the gifts lose much of their glory ; Christ of his praise , and the Gospell of its fulnesse .

To the Second , of your alleadging my Book in such and such pages , as another Gospell from Christs : I shall print them as you quote them ; and with them , I desire these things to be considered , together with the other parts of my Booke , and the scope of it , which you have detained in unrighteousnesse : All these I freely open to the judgment of all who are Spirituall .

Master Gataker . (1) That John , Christs , and his Apostles Method were all one for matter Mat. 3. 2 , 8. Mat 4. 17. Marke 1. 15. Acts 20 21. P. 11 , 12 , 13. and manner ; for they all preached Faith and Repentance ; and yet we are taxed for these things as Legalists by this Author . (2) John and the rest preached life and salvation upon condition of Faith , and Repentance , and Obedience . (3) Where we find Faith only preached , it is because we have but the Summaries or heads of their Sermons . Answer .

To the first , that I taxe you for preaching Faith and Repentance , as the Apostles did , and John did , as Legalists . Nay , I tax ye only because ye preach it not as they did , according to the full revelation of it in the New Testament ; but you preach it only as you find it in their Summaries , and in the briefe narration of their Doctrine ; and this you ought not to do , if you will preach according to that glorious Analogie of the Gospell : and to this , I shall only bring in your own words to convince you , and so from your own mouth condemn you . You say of the Apostles , We have but Summaries See p. 13. of them , as in Acts 2. 40 and 16. 32. and you knowing this , preach only by their first Methods and Summaries , not looking to the revelation of the mystery , which the Apostle saies is now made manifest . And for Rom. : 6. 25 , ●6 ▪ Iohns manner of preaching , his Preaching is to be no more an example to you then his Baptism . You know the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater then he .

To the second , That Faith , Repentance , and Obedience , were conditions of life and salvation . Why keep you not to the Forme of wholesome words in Scripture ? Where doth the Scripture call these conditions of salvation ? They that are Christs , do beleeve , and repent , and obey ; but do they beleeve repent , and obey that they may be Christs ? Hath not God chosen us in Ephes. 1. him , & predestinated us unto the adoption of children in Jesus Christ ? But I know you wil say , That when the Apostles did beleeve , repent , and obey , it is by consequence as much as a condition , and the same with a condition . But answer : The interpreting the Spirit thus in the letter , and in consequence , hath much darkned the glory of the Gospell . When some of Christs Disciples took his words as you do , under a condition , Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man ; &c. the words , saith he , that I speake , are Spirit . Consider but what st●●●ts you bring the Gospell into : first , you make life appearing to be had in the Covenant of Grace , as at first in the Covenant of Works ; Do this , and live ; so , beleeve , repent , obey and live ; thus runs your Doctrine : nor can you with all your distinctions make Faith in this consideration , lesse then a worke , and so put Salvation upon a condition of works againe . Is this Free-Grace ▪ But you say Faith is a gift freely given of God , and here is Free-grace still . But I pray , Is this any more Free-Frace respectively to what we do for life , then the Covenant of works had ? All the Works wrought in us then , were freely of God , and of free-gift too , as Arminius well observes in the point of universall Grace ; and we wrought only from a gift given . Either place Salvation upon a free bottom , or else you make the New Covenant but an Old Covenant in new tearmes ; in stead of Do this and live , Beleeve this and live , repent and live , obey and live : And all this is for want of revealing the mystery more fully .

To your third , That where we find Faith only preached , and so Salvation made short work ; that it is because we have but the Summaries . I agree with you that we have but the Doctrine of the Apostles , as Johns , of whom it is said , He spake many other things in his exhortation to the people : It is true , we have much of what they said , and we want much ; yet we have so much , as may shew us , that according to the work of Salvation in us , Faith is the worke which gives most glory to God : Abraham believed , it is said , and gave glory to God ; they that beleeve , give glory ; and Faith of all the works of the Spirit , is the glorious Gospell-worke ; Christ cals it the worke indeed , this is the worke that ye beleeve : So as the only reason why we heare so much of Faith in the Gospell , is not only and meerely as you insinuate , because we have but their Sermons in Summaries , and because of another reason of yours , drawn from the qualification of some they Preached to , that had other gifts , and not Faith : But because Faith is of all Spirituall encreasings in us , the most gloriously working towards Christ , Faith goes out , and Faith depends , and Faith lives in Christ , and Faith brings down Christ , and Faith opens the riches , and Faith beleeves home all strength , comfort , glory , peace , promises .

And Faith hath so much put upon it , as becomes a stumbling stone , and a rock of offence , to many : Justification , imputation of righteousnesse is put upon Faith ; Salvation upon Faith as Christs Bloud , is put upon the Wine ; the Cup that we blesse , is it not the Communion of the bloud of Christ ; and Christs body upon the bread , the bread that we breake , is it not the Communion of the body of Christ ? and yet neither the Wine nor the Bread , is his Bloud or his Body , no more then Faith is either Justification or Righteousnesse ; but such a work as goes out most into him , and carries the soule into him who is Righteousnesse and Justification to us .

The Word were no mystery , if it were not thus ordered , and things so mingled , that the Spirit only could discerne and distinguish ; Do not the Papists stumble at Works ? And why ? because they see not Faith for Works : And do not others stumble at Faith ? And why ? because they see not Christ for Faith ! Do not some say that the words , world , and all , and every man , makes some stumble at the Election of some , and so conclude Redemption for all .

Master Gataker . (1) That Christ and his Apostles never Preached Free-grace , without conditions and qualifications on our parts , Rom 8. 1. Mat. 5. 8. &c. (2) Christs Pag. 14 , 15 , 16. Bloud or Wine is not to be filled out too freely to Dogs and Swine , to sturdy Rogues . (3) That saying , promises belongs to sinners as sinners , not as humbled , &c. and all that received him , received him in a sinfull condition , is a Pag. 17. creeping to Antinomiamsme . (4) That God may be provoked to wrath by his Children , and David and Peter made their peace with God by repentance . (5) That God loves us for his own graces in us ; God is as man , and as a Father is angry and chastiseth his for sin . (6) Faith is not a perswasion more or lesse of Christs love , all may have that , men may beleeve too suddenly , as Simon Magus . (7) Christ bids us repent , as well as beleeve ; yea , first to Pag. 20 , 21. repent , we are to try our Faith , 2 Cor. 13. 5. 1 John 4. 1. (8) That he clog● men with conditions of taking and receiving , as well as we of repenting and obeying . (9) The summe of this mans Divinity is , Men may be saved whether Pag. 24 ▪ they repent or no , whether they beleeve or no. Answer .

To the first , That Christ and his Apostles never Preached Free-grace , without conditions , &c. on our parts :

I answer , They Preached Faith , and Repentance , and Obedience : But how ? First ; in degrees of Revelation , the Gospell came not all out at once in its glory : They Preached them , but how ? not in parts , as we have their Doctrine , as you confesse they Preached them ; but all along in the New Testament there is more of their glory and fulnesse revealed concerning them ; so as the degrees of revealing , the parts or summaries of their Sermons , the fuller discovery in the whole New Testament , are those things you consider not , and they are the things we only consider , and so dare not Preach the Gospell so in halfes , in parts and quarters as you do , and yet will not beleeve you do , which is so much worse , Ye say ye see , and therefore your sin remaineth .

To the second , Christ Bloud is not to be filled out to Rogues and Dogs .

Take heed you charge not Christ for being with Publicans and Sinners , you may upon this ground say he Preached false Doctrine , because he said , He came not to call the Righteous , but Sinners .

What , were all of us in our unregenerate condition sinners or righteous persons ? unholy or holy ? men of Faith or unbeliefe ? or not rather dead intrespasses and sins , till quickned with Christ ?

To the third . That saying , Promises belongs to sinners as sinners , and not humbled , &c.

I pray , to whom doth all Promises belong first , but to Christ ? and from whom to us , but from Christ ? and what are the Elect , and the chosen in him , before they are called or beleeve , but sinners as sinners ? Do you look that men should be first whole for the Physitian , or Righteous for Pardon of sins , or justified for Christ ; or rather sinners , unrighteous , ungodly ? While 〈…〉〈…〉 we were yet sinners Christ dyed for us ; He dyed for the ungodly . Christ is the Physitian , the Righteousnesse , the Sanctification , and makes them beleved that were not beloved , and to obtaine mercy that had not obtained mercy , and Saints who were Sinners , and Spirituall who were Carnall .

So as we looke at Christ and the Promises comming to men in their sins ; but those men were beloved of God in Christ , who suffered for sins before ; so as they begin not now to be loved , but to be made to love ; God begins not to be reconciled to them , but they begin to be reconciled to him ; The love of God being shed abroad into their hearts by the Holy Ghost , Rom. 5. which is now given unto them .

So as we looking at persons as chosen in Christ , and at their sins , as borne by Christ on his body on the Tree , we see nothing in persons to hinder them from the Gospell , and offers of Grace there , be they never so sinfull to us , or themselves , they are not so to him who hath chosen them , nor to him in whom they are chosen : And this is the mystery , why Christ is offered to Sinners , or Rogues , or whatsoever you call them , they are , as touching Rom. 1● . 28. the Election , beloved for the Fathers sake : I speak of such to whom Christ gives power to receive him , and beleeve on him , and become the Sons of God ; and Christ findes them out in their sins , and visits them who sit in the region and shadow of death , and them that are darknesse , he makes light in the Lord .

To your fourth , That God may be provoked to wrath by his Children .

I pray , Can God be as the Son of man ▪ Is there any variablenesse or shadow of change in him ? Can he love and not love ? Doth he hate persons or sins ? Is he said to chastise as Fathers , otherwise then in expressions after the manner of men ; because of the infirmities of our flesh must we conceive so of God as of one another ? Can he be provoked for sins done away and abolished ? Hath Christ taken away all the sin of his ? Hath he borne all upon his body or no ? Speakes he of anger otherwise then by way of Allusion and Allegory ? as a Father &c. And is that , He is a Father after the fashion of men ? Or speaks he not in the Old Testament according to the Revelation of himselfe then , and in the New Testament of himselfe now , only because our infirmity , and his own manner of appearing which is not yet so ; but we may beare him in such expressions , and yet not so in such expressions , but we may see more of him and his love , and the glory of Salvation in other expressions , and not make up such a love as you commonly do of benevolence and complacence .

Did David and Peter , as you say , make up their peace with God by Repentance : Is there any that makes peace but one Jesus Christ , who makes peace through the bloud of his Crosse ? Can Repentance make peace ? Or Obedience make peace ? Is there any sacrifice for sin , but that which was once offered , even he that appeared in the end of the world , to put away sin by the Heb. 9. 28. & 10 12. sacrifice of himselfe ? And was not this called by the Apostle , One sacrifice for sins for ever ?

Repentance , Obedience , &c. may make way for the peace made already for sin , that is , in such workings of the Spirit , the love of God in the face of Iesus Christ , may shine upon the Soule more freely and fully ; and the more the Spirit abounds in the fruits of it , the more joy and peace flows into the Soule ; and the more the Soule looks Christ in the face , so as peace with God is not made , but more revealed by the Spirit in obedience and love , &c.

To your fifth , That God loves us for his own graces in us .

I thought he had loved us too in himselfe , and from that love given Christ for us , and yet loved us in Christ ●op ; Can any thing without God , be a cause of Gods love ? Doth God love as we love one another , from complexions or features without , or loves he not rather thus ? God is love , and therefore we are made , and Redeemed , and Sanctified ; not because we are Sanctified , therefore he loves us ; We love him , because he first loved us ; he loved us , because he loved us , and not because we love him ; not because of any Spirituall complexion or feature in us ; because of his Image upon us , that is but an earnest of his love to us , that is only given us , because he loved us ; he loves us from his will , not from without ; for though we are like him , yet we are not himselfe , and he loves us as in Christ and himselfe .

Whereas you say , God is as man , and as a Father ; I hope you meane not as in himselfe , but as in his wayes of speaking and appearing to us , and if so , we are agreed : But your taking things more in the Letter , then the Spirit , makes your Divinity lesse Divine , and your conceptions more like things of men then of God . This makes the Gospell so legall and carnall , when we rise little higher then the bare Letter or Scripture , not the inspiration by which it came all Scripture being given by inspiration .

To your sixth , That Faith is not a pers●●sion more or lesse of Gods love , and that all may have that .

I pray mistake not , Can all beleeve from the Spirit ? Can all be more or lesse spiritually perswaded ? Do I speake of any perswasion of Christs love which is not Spirituall ? Deceive not your selfe , nor your Reader , nor wrong not your Author ; or do I speak of Faith abstracted from all Repentance , Obedience , &c , why deale ye thus ? When you say men may beleeve too suddenly , because I presse men to beleeve , and you instance in Simon Magus ; Was he blamed for beleeving too suddenly , or for mis-beleeving ? because he beleeved the gifts of the Holy Ghost were to be bought with money ? Can any beleeve too soon ? if some mis-beleeve , or beleeve falsly , what is that to Rom. 3. them that truly beleeve ? Shall the unbeliefe of some make the Faith of God without effect ? God forbid : Can Christ be too soon a Saviour to us ? Can the Fountaine be too soon opened for sin ? Can the riches of Christ be too soon brought home ? Paul counts it an honour to be first in Christ : Salute Andronicus Rom. 16. 5 , 7. and Iunia , who were in Christ before me , and the Church in Pr●scilla's house , and Epenetus , who were the first fruits of Achai● unto Christ .

To your seventh , That Christ bids us repent as well as beleeve ; yea , first repent .

Yea , but will you take the Doctrine of the Gospell from a part , or summary of it , as you say , and not from the Gospell in its fulnesse , and glory , and Revelation : Will ye gather Doctrines of Truth , as Ruth for a while did gleanings , here one eare of Corne , and there another ; and not rather go to the full sheafe , to Truth in the Harvest and Vintage ? Will you pluck up Truth by pieces and parcels , in Repentance , and Obedience , and Selfe-dentall ? and not reveale these as Christ may be most glorified , and the Saints most Sanctified , and these gifts most Spiritualized and improved ? Will ye Preach Doctrines as they lie in the Letter , or in their Analogie and inference of Truth ? The Papists Preach Christs very flesh and bloud to be in the Wine : And why ? but because they looke but halfe way to the demonstration of Truth in the Spirit , they shut up Christ in one Notion and not in another , and so loses the Truth by revealing it in that Forme of words which is too narrow for it , and too short of the height , and depth , and length Ephes. of it .

You say , We are to try our Faith : So say I too , if you would not pick and choose in my Book , to make me some other thing then you find me : But you mean , we must try our Faith for assurance , as your other words imply ; and so far I say too , but you will not heare me speak : But you would have the best assurance from tryall ; but so far I say not as you say , is that the best Spirituall assurance that is from our own Spirits in part , or from Gods alone ? from our own reasoning , or his speaking ? Can a Spouse argue better the love of her friend from his Tokens and Bracelets , or from his owne word , and Letter , and Seale ?

One of the three that beare witnesse on Earth is the Spirit , and in 1 Iohn 5. whom , after ye believe , ye were sealed with that Spirit of promise . Can any Inference or Consequence drawn from Faith or Love or Repentance , or Obedience in us so assure us , as the breathing of Christ himself , sealing , assuring , perswading , convincing , satisfying ; I will hear what God the Lord will say , for he will speak peace to his Servants : A Saint had rather P●●l . hear that voice , then all its own Inferences and Arguments , which though they bring something to perswade , yet they perswade not so answerably 1 Pet. 1. till the voyce speake from that excellent glory .

To your eighth , That I clog men with conditions of receiving , as well as you of repenting &c.

I answer , I preach not Receiving as a condition , as you do Repenting . I Preach Christ the Power , and Life , and Spirit , that both stands and knocks , and yet opens the doore to himselfe . I Preach not Receiving as a gift , or condition given or begun for Christ , but Christ working all in the Soul , and the Soul working up to Christ by a power from himselfe . And if you would Preach Repentance and Obedience as no other preceding or previous dispositions , we should agree better in the Pulpit then we do in the Presse .

To your ninth , That the sum of my Divinity is , That men may be saved whither they Repent or no , or beleeve or no.

I answer , Should I say to you , The sum of your Divinity is this , That Faith , and Repentance , and Obedience , are helps with Christ , and conditions with Christ to mans Salvation ; and that Salvation in not free , but conditionall ; the Covenant of Grace is as it were a Covenant of Workes ? Should I do well in this to upbraib you and those of your way ?

Say not then that I thinke men may be saved that never repent nor believe : Why do you thus set up and counterfeit opinions , and then engrave our Names upon them ? Could not I piece up your Book so ( if I would be unfaithfull ) as make ye appeare as great an Hereticke as any whom you thus fancy ; because I preach not Repentance , or Faith as you do ; because I make all these as gifts from Gods love in Christ , not as gifts to procure us God , or his love , or Christ ; because I make all these the fruits of the Spirit , given to such whom Christ hath suffered for , to such whom God hath chosen in him ; because I Preach Faith , and Repentance , and Obedience , in that full Revelation in which they are left as in the New Testament , and not in that sca●tling of Doctrine , as they are meerly and barely revealed in the History of the Gospel , or Acts of the Apostles , onely where the Doctrine is not so much revealed as the Practise , and the Story in Summaries , because we Preach thus , therefore we are all Antinomians , Hereticks , men not worthy to live .

Brethren must ye forbid us to Preach , because we follow not with you , because we Preach not the Law as ye do , nor Faith as ye do , nor Repentance as ye do ? therefore do we not Preach them at all .

We Preach them all , as we are perswaded the New Testament and Spirit will warrant us , and as we may make Christ to be the power of all , and fulnesse of all , as we may exalt him whom God hath exalted at his own right hand . And we wish that ye and all that heare us , were both almost , and altogether as we are , except in reproaches .

CONCLVSION .

FRom the 29 Page to the last , all your Replyes amount not to any thing of substance , but of quarrelsome and humorous exceptions ; and I shall , I hope , redeem my time better then in making a businesse of things that will neither edify the Writer nor the Reader : There are some things you might ( had you pleased ) raised up into some Spirituall discourse , as that of Works , and Signs for assurance , &c. But you say of your self ( how becoming such a one as you I leave ) that you were like an Old Steed which neighs Pag. 43. and prances , but is past service ; so as I must take this of your age and infirmity , as a fuller Answer , or Supplement to what you faile in against me .

There are two or three things more observable then the rest :

1. That you tax me for saying , That the markes in Johns Epistles and James , are delivered rather as marks for others , then our selves to know us by ; and I affirme it againe , not as you say , excluding that other of our selves , but as I said , rather markes for others , though for both in their degrees , and kindes of manifestation .

So in James 2. 24. where he saith , By Workes a man is Justified , not by Faith ; So in Vers. 18. 21. All which set forth Works a signe to others rather then our selves . So in 1 John 3. 14. Hereby know we , we are passed from death to life , because we love the Brethren ; compared with Ver. 17. 18. shewes , That it is a love working abroad in manifestation to the Brethren ; and yet I exclude not any evidence which the fruits of the Spirit carry in them , as in my Book , which yet you alleadge to that purpose , after Pag 81. 32. you have been quarrelling so long with it , pulling my Treatise in pieces to make your selfe worke , and then binde it up againe after your owne fashion .

For your Story of your Lady , and your fallacy , That she might as well conclude her selfe damned because she was a sinner , as one that Christ would save because she was a sinner , And durst you thus sport with a poor wounded spirit , that perhaps could see little but sin in her selfe to conclude upen ? Know you not that Christ came to call sinners , to save sinners ? And durst you make use of your Logick to cast such a mist upon the promises to sinners ? Suppose one should aske you how you gather up your assurance , now you are an old man ? how would you account to us ? Would you say , such a m●asure of Faith , so much obedience , so much love to the Brethren , so much Zeale , Prayer , Repentance , and all of unquestionable evidence ? But if we should go further , and question you concerning your failings when you writ in the behalfe of Cards and Dice , of the Common-Prayer-Book ; if we should aske ye of your luxuriarcy in quotations in your Books and Sermons ; whether all be out of pure zeale , no selfishnesse , no vain-glory ? Whether all your Love was without bitternesse to your Brethren of a diverse judgement , whom you call Antinomian , &c. Whether you preached and obeyed all out of love to Iesus Christ , and not seeking your own things , not making a gaine of godlinesse ? Whether all your Fastings and Repentance were from true meltings of heart , sound humiliation ; or because the State called for it , and constrained it ? Whether your praying and preaching was not much of it Self , of Invention , of Parts , of Art , of Learning , of seeking praise from man ? Oh , should the light of the Spirit come in clearnesse and glory upon your spirit ; Oh! how much of Self , of Hypocrisie , of Vanity , of Flesh , of Corruption , would appeare ? how would all be unprofitable ? For my part , I cannot be so uncharitable but to wish you a better assurance then what you and your Brethren can find in your own works or righteousnesse : For , it is not what we approve , but what God approves is accepted . And I am perswaded , however you are now loth , it may be to lose reputation by going out of an old track of Divinity , as Luther once , yet when once your spirit begins to be unclothed of forms of darknesse and art , of self-righteousnesse , and that you with open face behold the glory of the Lord , you will cry out , Wo is me , I am undone , for I have seen the Lord ; and Lord depart from me , for I am a sinfull creature ; and , What went I out to see ? My owne unrighteousnesse ; or rather , A Reed shaken with the winde .

An Answer to a Book intituled A Plea for Congregationall Government : or , A Defence of the Assemblies Petition , &c.

YOu write thus :

(1) That the independents confesse you a true Church and Minstery . (2) Those that are ordained by Bishops , may be true Ministers ; else how am I a Preacher , or they true Ministers ? (3) Succession is not necessary to the essence of a true Ministery . (4) If no true Ministery , no true Baptisme . (5) Must not there be persons ordaining , and persons ordained ? And so the dissenting Brethren hold . (6) That you abuse the Assembly in citing their Humble Advice touching the Divine Right of a Congregationall Presbyteriall , and not of the other . The Independents assort a Divine Right there , and in Synods too , as they do : They hold a Divine Right in one as well as the other . (7) Their ordination by Bishops though it should be null , yet they have all you can alleadge necessary to a Preacher . (8) Parishes here are but as in New-England , as in Jerusalem , Antioch . (9) Some of the dissenting Brethren hold Synods an holy Ordinance of God , and this Assembly so to be . ( 10 ) If no Presbyteries must be of Divine Right , because not infallibly gifted , this concludes against Presbyteries and Ordinances . ( 11 ) If you would have them content with a mixed power partly prudentiall , because of their mixt dnointing , you contradict that pure one you plead for . ( 12 ) The Apostles , and Elders , and Angels of the Churches of Asia were not infallible as in divers practices . ( 13 ) To say the Apostles did advise in place of the written Word , is little lesse then Blasphemy . ( 14 ) The Presbyterians in France , and Scotland , and the Netherlands , do not so imbroyle Kingdoms . The feare of excommunicating Parliaments and Kingdoms , is but a Bugbeare . ( 15 ) They aske not of the State an Ecclesiasticall-power , but a liberty to exercise that power . ( 16 ) Hath Christ● said , that in a sound Church , Church-Officers shall excommunicate , Pag. 17. and in an nnsound , the Magistrate shall do it ? ( 17 ) He may in time say as much against Equity and justice living upon voyces in Assemblies , as Pag. 21. against Truth .

Answer .

To the first , That the Independents confesse you a true Chruch and Ministery . You are not to prove what others confesse or hold you to be , but what you are indeed , according to Truth . Nor do I contend with those that hold you so , but with you that hold your selves so ; as the Spirit to the Laodiceans ; Thou sayest thou art full , &c. and , behold , thou art poore , &c.

To the second , That they ordained by Bishops , are true Ministers as the Independents , and I a Preacher , for all that Ordination . If you meane that the Bishops Ordination makes not one for ever a false or Antichristian Minister , I grant it , because it is no marke to them that renounce it : Babylon is no more Babylon to them that are gone out of it . But what is this to your Ministery or Ordination , who are yet under the Marke and Babylonish Ordination ? Renounce it , come out as the Spirit cals ye , and then your being Antichristian is no more to ye , then to the Ephesians that they should be lesse light because they were once darknesse , or lesse alive because they were once dead .

To the third , That Succession is not necessary to a true Ministery , It is both true , and false , in severall acceptions . When there was a true power , they ordained others , and others them . There was succession . But that being lost under Antichrist , so far as visibly to derive it to us , there can be no such true visible Succession appearing . And yet you that pretend to stand by the first power , must prove your Succession , if you will prove your power .

To the Fourth : If no true Ministery , no true Baptism . For that as you please : I dare not exalt the truth of your Baptism above that of your Ministery , no more then you .

To the Fifth : The dissenting Brethren hold there must be persons ordaining and ordained , as well as we . Ye● , but do they hold Bishops ordaining , and Presbyters ordained by Bishops , and Presbyters of their ordaining , ordaining others as you do ?

To the Sixth , of my unjust citing the Assemblies Modell or Humble Advice : and that there is no more Divine Right asserted in the Congregationall Presbytery then in the Classicall , &c. which is done so by the dissenting Brethren . I answer : Let the Modell be printed to the world , to end the difference betwixt you and me . And for the Divine Right of the one and the other , I am of your mind ; they are able to prove both alike of Divine Right that is in their Presbytery : The one is no more of Divine Right then the other , and neither of them of any . And for the dissenting Brethren , it is not them , but you I deale with . Why come you under their shadow in a storme , and yet will let them have no liberty under yours , but would turne us all abroad as Hereticks and Schismaticks .

To the Seventh : Though the Ordination by Bishops be null , yet they have the other necessaries to a Preacher . Will ye undertake for the Assembly they shall stand to this , that all their former Ordination by Bishops is null ? If so , we are agreed : if not , all their other necessaries are no more then Ahabs peace : What peace , saith Jehu , so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Iezebell are alive ? So , what Ministery , so long as the whoredoms of Babylon yet remaine ?

To the Eighth , That the Parishes are but as in New-England , as in Ierusalem , &c. I pray forbeare this ; it is too manifest an errour . Are the Parishes of England and Churches of Ierusalm one and the same , so discipled , so constituted ? Were all of Ierusalem and Antioch reckoned for Christs Congregations , as all Parishes are ?

To the Ninth , That some of the dissenting Brethren hold Synods Ordinances of God , and this Assembly so . I know some of our Brethren for the Presbytery Mr Tombes . hold Infant-Baptism unlawfull , and Antichristian , and hath better defended it then any yet whom I have read , hath answered it . And for this Assembly to be an Ordinance of God , I thought that had been but an Ordinance of Parliament , and stood by that power by which they were called by at first : Yet deny not but that consultations for holy ends , about the things of God , are lawfull by the Word .

To the Tenth , That Presbyteries , because not infallibly gifted , are of no Divine Right , and so concludes against all Presbyteries and Ordinances . Yea , against all your Presbyteries to be of Divine Right as the first . But our question is rather whether the first was any such Presbytery as you now affirme : and for ought I see , you can no more prove the truth of the Presbytery then in the sense you take it , then your Presbytery to be one with it , one only in Divine Right , not in Divine power or gifts . And how are these things sutable ?

To the Eleventh , That I contradict the pure Government I plead for , by pleading for yours as prudentiall . It were true indeed , if I pleaded it in mine own behalfe . I plead it occasionally for them , who will needs have what the State cannot in conscience allow them , and yet will not practice any other but what the State shall give them ; and so trouble both the State and their own consciences , and would cast a snare upon both . Brethren , if ye will needs have the State to allow ye your Presbytery , Why are ye not content with what they can allow ye ? If ye will have a Divine Right which they cannot allow ye , why do ye trouble them , and sit down under a bondage of your own making ? But how justly is this yoke come upon you , who would have brought a worse upon your Brethren .

To the Twelfth , That the first Presbyters , and Apostles , &c. were not infallible as in divers practices . What is this to the truth and gifts they taught and taught by ? They failed as men , but not as Apostles : They erred as they were Peter and Paul , but not as moved by the Holy Ghost . Take heed by opening the Apostles failings to justifie your own you speake not worse Blasphemy then you name in me , and make that glorious Word of Scripture questionable which they preached , like the words that your selves preach from that Scripture .

To the Thirteenth , That to say the Apostles did advise in place of the written Word , is Blasphemy . What Blasphemy is it to say , that the same Word which they writ and preached ; the same Spirit spake in them , and spake the same truth in them which writ in them ? And is it so with any of your Presbyters ? Therefore till the same Spirit speak truth in them so as in the first Presbyters , will they challenge the same right , the same power ? Will they have a Divine Right acted by a spirit lesse Divine then the Right ?

To the Fourteenth , That the Presbyterians in France , Scotland , and the Netherlands , do not embroyle Kingdoms . There is good reason : in France they cannot if they would . I wish you would walke under the Magistrate as they do , and as your dissenting Brethren here , and not make him serve you , And in the Netherlands , do you as they do there , and leave your Brethren to the like liberty that is in that State , and they will not grudge ye your Presbytery amongst your selves . For Scotland they are Brethren I wish no worse to , then Truth , and Peace , and power above their Ministers .

To that of excommunicating kingdoms being a bugbear . You do well to say so , till ye be established : but you that dare so capitulate with States , whom ye are called to advise in things onely propounded , what more may be expected upon all your principles , I leave to be judged .

To the Fifteenth , That they aske not of the State a power , but a liberty to exercise that power . Well : and will ye trouble the State no further ? Will ye not intreat them to punish such a one , and such a one , whom ye judge an Hereticke and a Schismaticke ? to fine and imprison , when you have done with them at Excommunication ? May the State be quiet if they say to ye , go all that are so perswaded as you are , and worship and practise as your dissenting brethren and other Saints , and trouble not us to provide for your Tythes , and Rule for you in things of your own cognizance over Consciences .

But you would onely have liberty from them ; your power is of Christ . But you cannot so cleare things as you thinke . If your power and liberty respectively to your selves and the Magistrate be so distinct , why have ye mingled them and confounded them all this while ? Why make ye the truth and power ye have from Christ , wait so at Parliament-doores , as Master Case said ? If the powers on earth will not do for Christ , as you would make the people beleeve , Why do not ye your selves more for Christ ? Is it better to obey God or man ? Thus the more ye would single your selves in your power and right from the Magistrate , the more your practice makes an argument against ye .

To the Sixteenth , That I should say , 〈◊〉 sound Church ▪ Church-officers shall excommunicate and judge of offences ; and in an unsound the Magistrate , and the Inference there : I answer , I spake and writ so , according to your principles , not to my owne . Nor can I see how you can chalenge such a one , entire , and simple Discipline exclusively to the Magistrate , upon no more true , pure , and Scripture-principles then your present Presbytery is . And I conceive the powers on earth , or in the world , have to do in every Government that is more of the world then of Christ ▪ For if ye exclude them from a part in that Government which is partly prudential , and of man , you exclude them from off part of their owne Kingdome , which is theirs by inheritance , and of more Divine Right then I conceive yours to be . And whereas you would make us beleeve you stand onely in a pure Gospel strength and power , and desire no more of the Magistrate but liberty : can this be so in truth , when all is esteemed invalid and nothing , if the Magistrates power doth not actuate the Ministers power ? I know you may distinguish of powers Scholastically , and Spheres of working for those powers , and so tell the Magistrate and us , he doth but act in his Sphere , when he acts in yours , and indeed acts yours , making it to be stronger then it is in it selfe . But is not his Civil power that which puts life , as you think , into all your Presbytery ? Yet he must think he doth but as a Magistrate still , as if so be that the Magistrate were made to be rods in the hands of the Church , and Swords to be drawn by them , and Iron whips at their girdles . We are not now as Aarois and Moset : we are not a Kingdom of Israell , nor a Church of Israel ; though too many of you have preached the Old Testament more then the New ; for what advantage , let the Magistrate judge .

To the Seventeenth , That he may in time say as much of justice living upon voyces in Assemblies , as of Truth ▪ and so to be a Mystery of Iniquity . These are but insinuations to the Magistrate , and ghosts of Jealousie which you raise . And to put an end to such feares ; when I make Church and State , Magistrate and Ministery , Gospell-laws and Civill to be both one , then challenge me for that opinion : But I have learned , that Christs Kingdom and the worlds have a severall Policy ; and that may be a Law in the one , which is not to the other . And now is it your Inference , or my Principle , wrongs the Magistrate ?

An Answer in few words to Master Edwards his second Part of the GANGRENA , And to the namelesse Author of a Book , called , An After-reckoning with Master Saltmarsh .

MAster Edwards , the difference betwixt ye both , is this : You set your name to more then you know , as hath been well witnessed ; and this man dare set his name to nothing : You sin without shame , and your Partner is ashamed of what he doth . Sin is too powerfull in you against Truth , because you shew your selfe : and Truth is too powerfull for him , because he hides himselfe .

Master Edwards , I shall answer you in these few words : but first , The Lord rebuke thee , even the Lord .

1. If the Image of Christ be in any of those you so persecute ; how can you answer it to Jesus Christ , to cast any dirt on the glory of him ?

2. If God be in any of those you are so much an enemy to ; how will you answer it to fight against God , any thing of God ?

3. If any of those be the children of the heavenly Father , or the little ones of the Gospell , It were better that a milstone were hanged about your neck , and you cast into the Sea : So Christ tels you .

4. What is it to sin against the holy Ghost , but to hate the Light once known , or to blaspheme the works of the Spirit ? And you once professed to me you had almost been one of those whom you call Hereticks . Oh take heed of that sin● there is no more Sacrifice for that . And how if the works of those you so judge , be wrought in the Spirit ? shall you ever be forgiven in this world , or in that to come ? Read the words , and tremble .

5. Doth not the Word bid you restore those that are fallen , in meeknesse ▪ and tell your brother his fault , first betwixt you and him ? And you never yet came to any of them that I could heare of ; but print , proclaime , tell stories to the world of all you heare , see , know . Is Christ in this Spirit ? Is the Gospell in this straine ? Will this be peace to your soule hereafter ?

6. Solomon tels us , that a man may seem faire in his own tale , till his neighbour search out the matter . And how dare you then take all things at one hand , and not at anothers ? How dare you have one eare open for complaints , and faults , and crimes , and the other shut against all defence ? Did ever Justice do this ? Did you ever call for their accusers face to face ? Did you ever traverse Testimonies on both sides ? And dare you judge thus , and condemne thus ? Shall not the Judge of ▪ Heaven and Earth make you tremble for this Injustice ? Shall he not make Inquisition upon your soule for this bloud ?

7. Is it any other ground or bottome you stand on in this your way of accusing the Brethren , but Paul you say named some , and the Fathers named some so , and Calvin , as you told me the other day when I met you ? And was there ever crime without some Scripture , or shadow of the Word ? Did not Canterbury on the Scaffold ▪ preach a Sermon of as much Scripture and Story for what he did , as you can for yours , if you should ever preach there ? He thought ye all Hereticks , as you do us ; he thought he might persecute you , as you do us ; and he had a Word from John Baptist for his manner of death , and a Word from the Red sea and Israelites for his death , and enemies ; and a Word from Paul for his Changing Laws and Customes : and for his crime of Popery , he had a Word f●●m them that feared the Romanes would come and take away their Government ▪ Thus Satan and Selfe can paint the worst kind of sin .

Poore soule ▪ Is your conscience no better seated then in such a●ery apparitious of Scripture , and failings of Fathers ? Do not you heare the Prayers of those soules you wound , pleading with God against your sin ? Are you not in the gall of bitternesse and bond of iniquity● Is not your spirit yet flying , when none pursues you ? Are not your dreames of the everlasting burning , and of the worme that never dies ? Have you no gnawings , no flashings , no lightnings ? I am afraid of you . Your face and complexion shewes a most sadly parched , burnt , and withered spirit . Methought when I called to you the other day in the street , and challenged you for your unanswerable Crime against me , in the third page of the last Gangrena , in setting my name against all the Heresies you reckon , which your own soule and the world can witnesse to be none of mine , and your own confession to me when I challenged you : How were you troubled in spirit and language ? Your sin was , as I thought , upon you , scourging you , checking you , as I spoke . I told you at parting , I hoped we should overcome you by prayer . I beleeve we shall pray you either into Repentance , or Shame , or Judgement , ●re we have done with you . But Oh might it be Repentance rather , till Master Edwards smite upon his thigh , and say , what have I done ?

For your Anagram upon my name , you do but fulfill the Prophesie , They shall cast out your name as evill , for the Son of mans sake .

And for your Book of Jeeres and Stories of your Brethren ; Poore man ! It will not be long musick in your eares , at this rate of sinning .

For the namelesse Author and his After-reckoning ; let all such men be doing , for me : Let them raile , revile , blaspheme , call Hereticks : It is enough to me , that they write such vanity they dare not own .

And now let me tell ye both , and all such Pensioners to the great accuser of the Brethren , Fill up the measure of your iniquity , if ye will needs perish whether we will or no. I hope I rest in the bosome of Christ , with others of my Brethren : raile , persecute , do your worst , I challenge all the powers of hell that set ye on work , while Christ is made unto me righteousnesse , wisedome , sanctification and redemption .

And I must tell ye further , that since any of the light and glory of Christ dawned upon me : since first I saw that Morning-Star of righteousnesse , any of the brightnesse of the glory in my heart , that heart of mine which once lived in the coasts of Zebulon and Nephtaly , in the region and shadow of death , I can freely challenge ye , and thousands more such as ye , to say , write , do , worke , print , or any thing , and I hope I shall in the strength of Christ , in whom I am able to do all things , give you blessings for cursings , and prayers for persecutions .

FINIS .

Pag 144. line 37. for Antichristian , read great corruption .

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