The creed of Mr. Hobbes examined in a feigned conference between him and a student in divinity.

THE CREED OF Mr. Hobbes EXAMINED ; In a feigned CONFERENCE Between HIM , AND A STUDENT in DIVINITY .

LONDON : Printed for Francis Tyton , at the three Daggers in Fleet-street . 1670.

To the Right Honourable Edward Earl of Manchester , Lord Chamberlain of his Majestie 's Houshold , &c. My LORD ,

SEeing I ow● to your Liberality both the leisure and subsistence which I enjoy at Holywell , I am under the greatest obligation of presenting , to your Honour , the First-fruits of my Studies , since my retirement to that Place . These Studies promoted by the encouragement of your Lordship , were often suggested to me , by the unwelcome conversation of two sorts of People , of which some appear'd deficient in Faith , and others , in Charity . It is not long , since , by accident , I convers'd with many who were forward enough in venting licentious Principles , in the way , but without the accomplishments , of Mr. Hobbes : neither have I escaped the trouble of meeting with some , who , having heard of the Error , and Recantation , of an unhappy young man , committed , sometime , to my care ; began to reproach my self as a favourer of such opinions . As for this rash attempt against my own good name ( the prejudice , which , from thence , might be sustained in my Calling , being set apart ) ; I could have been content to have sate down in silence under it ; being ready to despise , rather then , deeply , to resent the loudest noise of such impertinent accusers . For I had learn'd of old , and by this instance was reminded of it , how unequal Judges the vulgar are wont to be ; and how very few either can , or do , examine the reason of Things . It sufficeth me , that I continue in the good opinion of your Lordship , and of some other very excellent persons , whose Judgements seem not to be corrupted by ignorance , credulity , or , unjust suspition : and doubtless , that Honour is to be preferr'd which is rather tall then broad . In the mean time , it grieved me to see the Tru●h lye bleeding at the feet of those who had not spurned at it out of strength of Reason , but out of meer wantonness of humour ; and I esteem'd it a piece of Religion to bear such a part as I was able in the vindication of her . In this Cause some have already engaged , whose Learning is greater then that I should either equal it , or give it such praise as it hath merited : and , certainly , the Pens of many others ought also to be sharpned and employed , against our Author ; that so Religion may the more , triumph over Atheism , and glory both in the streng●h and in the number of her Advocates ; and that there may be le●t , as little soundness in the Reputations , as there is in the Discourses , of such unreasonable men .

How sound those are , of which Mr. Hobbes hath been the great Patron , I leave to the judgement of all persons , who have not , by any sensual course of life , receiv'd distastful impressions against Religion . He hath affirmed of God that he is a bodily substance , though most refined ; and that he forceth evil upon the very wills of men . He hath fram'd a model of Government , pernicious , in its consequence , to all Nations ; and injurious to the Right of his present Majesty : for he taught the people , soon after the Martyrdom of his Royal Father , that his Title was extinguish'd when his adherents were subdu'd ; and that the Parliament had the Right for that very Reason , because it had possession . He hath subjected the Canon of Scripture to the Civil Powers , and taught them the way of turning the Alcoran into Gospel . He hath said it is lawful , not onely to dissemble , but , plainly to renounce our Faith in Christ , in order to the avoidance of persecution . His imagination hath been infected with so strange an itch after uncertain Novelties in Doctrine , that he hath affronted Geometry it self , which , so well , deserveth the name of Science .

You see , my Lord , that the same Person , who endeavoureth to shake the Foundations of Religion , doth manage a quarrel against the very Elements of Euclid . He hath , long ago , publish'd his Errours in Theologie , in the English Tongue , insinuating himself , by the handsomeness of his style , into the mindes of such whose Fancie leadeth their Judgements : and , to say truth of an Enemy , he may , with some Reason , pretend to Mastery , in that Language . Yet for this very handsomeness in dressing his Opinions , as the matter stands , he is to be reproved ; because , by that means , the poyson which he hath intermixed with them is , with more readiness and danger , swallowed . Of late he hath set forth his Leviathan in the Latine Tongue ; declaring his desire ( as is the manner of infected persons ) of spreading his Malady throughout the World .

All this being considered , your Lordship will not think it strange , that I use , towards him , in some places , a little warmth in my refutation : which just Zeal , if he interpreteth , Passion and Rayling , he falleth into a like mistake with the poor Norvegian in Balzac , who fled away from a Rose , conceiving it to be Fire . Wherefore for any bitterness of style , I will not be so injurious to my own innocence as to confess it : but for the Elocution it self , I cannot but acknowledge , before so great a Master of speaking as your Lordship is known to be , that , in many places it is beneath mediocrity : yet even that imperfection serveth the Character of such a person as speaketh in an extempora●● 〈◊〉 Dialogue ; he being , now and then , at a loss for aptness or fulness of expression . Concerning the Introduction to this Dialogue , if it seemeth a little from the purpose of the ensuing Arguments , it is the more natural beginning of an occasional Conference , in which men , otherwise then in the Schools , come not immediately to the matter . And I well remember that Minutius Felix , in that Dialogue , wherein he defendeth the Christian Faith against the Cavils of the Pagans , beginneth with a story of his walking towards the Sea ; of his bathing , with good event , in the salt Waters ; and of the little sports which Children used in making the stones dance upon the surface of the waves . That which , possibly , may offend more , is the frugality of notion , wherewith I may seem to have managed some of these great Arguments ; though in relation to the chief business concerning matter as incapable of Thinking , I have not been sparing in my words or conceptions . But your Lordship ( I assure my self ) knoweth well , that a man can scarce keep at distance enough from the crime of Albutius the Rhetorician , who desired to speak , in every Cause , not all that was fitting , but all that he could say : That a Defender of Religion is not always bound to produce the Arguments which prove the Truth , of which the Church is always supposed in possession ; but it sufficeth that he keep off Aggressors : And this ( for instance ) was the manner of L●ctantius . Lastly , that the Book being composed in form of a Dialogue ; by the largeness of my Replyes , I should have seemed guilty of the incivility of common Disputants , who endeavour to ingross the talk , and are unwilling to allow , to others , their turns of speaking . For the rest , I might alledge , with truth enough by way of excuse , the performance of this Labour in the short space of the last Winter-Quarter : but the Apology it self , the great haste in those twelve Arti●les , might perhaps seem a crime and a matter of greater guilt then the errour of Ovid , who made the Sun to post through all the twelve Signes of the Zodiack in a single day . The whole , such as it is , is most humbly submitted to the Candor and Charity of your Lordship , of which , that it is great , I have good assurance , seeing your Honour hath pleased to receive into the number of your dependants ,

My Lord , Your Lordships most obliged , though unworthy Servant , Tho. Tenison . Camb. Iune 4. 1670 .

A TABLE Of the Contents . THe Introduction , Page Mr. Hobbes and the Student meet at Buxton-well . 2. An instance , of the train of imagination occasioned there . 4 , 5. Mr. Hobbes his fear , & suspitious nature , expressed in the instance of S. Roscius , and parallel'd with the Character of Epicurus in Cicero . 5. The entrance into the Dialogue . The Students caution about Moroseness , Profaneness , &c. Mr. Hobbes accus'd by des Cartes , in one of his Epistles , as a man with whom no correspondence is to be held . Des Cartes himself noted for prophaning the holy Text. 5 , 6. Mr. Hobbes defence against the charge of Moroseness , &c. 7. Why des Cartes an Enemie to Mr. Hobbes , and how they differ in the explaining of Sense . ibid. Mr. Hobbes Creed , in 12 Articles , repeated . 8 , 9. Mr. Hobbes boasts of the good effect of his Leviathan upon many of our Gentry . 9. Article 1. Concerning the existence and immaterial nature of God . 9. &c. What Mr. Hobbes meaneth Atheistically , in his pretended argument for the existence of a God . 10. Mr. Hobbes opinion concerning the corporeitie of God noted by des Cartes , and further shewed out of his Leviathan . 10 , 11. The absurd consequences of that opinion ( which in effect denyeth the being of a God : ) one of them noted by Athenagoras . 12 , 13. Mr. Hobbes self-contradiction , whilest he saith all is body , yet denyeth parts in God . 14. Mr. Hobbes denieth incorporeal substances , because the terms are not in Scripture . 15. His self-contradiction and improprietie of speech . 16. Against Mr. Hobbes , that the Scripture favours the doctrine of incorporeal substances , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , cited by Ignatius out of the N. T. 17. Against Mr. Hobbes , that both Plato and Aristotle wrote of incorporeal substances 17 , 18. Mr. Hobbes argueth against incorporeal substances from Tertullian and the Doctors of the Greek Church . 19. Against Mr. Hobbes , that the incorporeitie of God is asserted by Athenagoras ; Theophilus Aut. Tatianus , Eusebius , Athanasius , &c. 19 , 20. Des Cartes accuseth Mr. Hobbes of making false illations whatsoever the premisses be . 20. An answer out of other places in Tertullian , to the words cited by Mr. Hobbes . 22. Mr. Hobbes writes the same over and over , especially about incorporeal substances . 23. That Mr. Hobbes fixeth a wrong sense upon the words substance and matter . 24 , 25. A saying of Marcellus concerning the making words free . 24. Mr. Hobbes doctrine concerning the incomprehensible nature of God . 26. How God is incomprehensible . 27 , 28. Against Mr. Hobbes , that we may have an Idea of God : what an Idea is . 31 , 32. That Mr. Hobbes is not advanc'd above the power of imagination . 32 , 33. That Mr. Hobbes condemneth himself by granting a conception of Vacuum . 35. Of the Antients calling God the place of all things . 36. The first Article concluded with the Apostrophe of Arnobius . 36 , 37. Article 2. Concerning the Trinity . 37 , 38. Mr. Hobbes monstrous explication of that mystery . 38. Mr. Hobbes submitteth to the Annotations of the Assembly . 40. Pope Alexanders absurd proof of the Trinity noted by Enjedinus . ibid. According to Mr. Hobbes , there may be more then 100 persons in the Deity . 41. Concerning Adam , Abraham , Moses , Saul , Christ , &c. as representing Gods person . ibid. Against Mr. Hobbes , that Father in the old Testament , is used somtimes in reference to Christ . 42. A text cited by Just. Martyr disagreeing with the vulgar copy . ibid. The Trinity according to the explication of Mr. Hobbes , no mystery at all . 43. Article 3. Of the Origin of the Vniverse . 43 , 44. &c. Mr. Hobbes , conception of a great bulk of matter arising out of a point . 44. Against Mr. Hobbes , that men are not wearied in ascending by effects and causes to the first . 45. Mr. Hobbes , supposing an eternal cause in motion , supposeth an eternal cause to be no eternal . 46. The school of Epicurus noted by Cicero as deficient touching the source of motion . 47. Against Mr. Hobbes , that the Creation is to be proved by reason , not authority . 48 , 49. Mr. Hobbes is followed in his digression about the word Magistrate , and refuted : and places out of Varro , Cicero , Tertullian , Grotius , our Articles , are , to that purpose cited , and Castalio's niceness taxed . 49 , 50 , 51. Against Mr. Hobbes , that if God is , it follows he is Creator of the order of the world : of the scituation of the heart . 52 , 53. Mr. Hobbes ( in De homine ) confesseth that the order of the parts of the body doth inferre the existence of an intelligent framer of them . 54. Article 4. Concerning the incorporeal and permanent nature of Angels : Mr. Hobbes supposeth them as phantasms in dreams , or pictures in a looking-glass 55. &c. Wh●t Spirit and Angel signifie , according to Mr. Hobbes at large . 56 , 57. Against Mr. Hobbes , that the being of Angels and Spirits may be proved from natural reasoning , and the old Testament . 58. Against Mr. Hobbes , that Religion ariseth not from tales publickly allowed 50. Of Cardan and his Genius . ibid. Concerning Witches , Sybills , Oracles , that they ceased not ( as Mr. Hobbes saith ) at Christs coming . Concerning Michael Nostredamus . 61 , 62. Against Mr. Hobbes , that the Angels sent to Abraham and Lot were not meer apparitions . 65. That Christ was not tempted ( as Mr. Hobbes saith ) in a Vision . ibid. Scultetus's mistake of the word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Mr. Hobbes his of 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . ibid. That the N. T. asserteth the existence of Angels . ●piscopius mistake concerning Christ appearing a● a meer Spectre to the Disciples . 66 ▪ 67. Mr. Hobbes late confession of Angels , as permanent ●nd substantial , from the places in the N. T. Against Mr. Hobbes , that the Scripture speaks of the cre●tion of Angels . 68 , 69. Of the ●ord 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 in Col. 1. the reading of Irenaeus noted . 70. Mr. Hobbes mistake about the word Ghost . 71. Of his verses of the Peak . ibid. Conclusion of the first dialogue . 73. Beginning of the second dialogue . Article 5. Concerning the Soul , and perception in matter . 75. According to Mr. Hobbes , the Soul is the organized body in due mo●ion ; and the Scripture meaneth by Soul , bodily life . 75 , 76. This refuted . Why blood ( called the life ) not to be eaten . 76. Mr. Hobbes hypothesis concerning sensation : be putteth the apparatus for sense it self . 79 , 80 , 81. Difficulties concerning sensation explain'd , in the way , either of Epicurus , or Des Cartes ; a vindication of him concerning the motion of the Globul● . 81. It is prov'd , that sensation is not made by motion or reaction in meer matter . 82 , 83. That Imagination is not meerly Mechanical . 86 , 87. That memory is not meerly Mechanical , 88 to 95 That reason is not Mechanical . 96. That the operation of simple apprehension is not Mechanical . 97. That universals are neither real things nor meer names . 98. That the operation of the mind in framing propositions is not Mechanical . 99. Or in deriving conclusions . 100. Against Mr. Hobbes , that reason is not meerly an apt joyning of Names . 102 , 103. Article 6. Concerning Libertie and Necessitie . 104 , &c. Regius inconsistent with himself , Mr. Hobbes consistent , and after the manner of the Stoicks , in this doctrine . 105. Man according to Mr. Hobbes chuseth , and refuseth , as necessarily as fire burneth . ibid. This doctrine refuted by the reasons in the last Article , concerning the Soul . ibid. Of Bishop Bramhal against Mr. Hobbes . Bishop Taylors judgement concerning that work . 107. This Doctor chargeth God with all impieties , and barbarities committed by men ; and Mr. Hobbes is not ashamed of the consquence . 108 , 109. Against Mr. Hobbes , that Gods permitting of sin , is not the same with willing it . 110 , 111 , 112. Mr. Hobbes doctrine upbraideth all laws . 114. The instance of whipping , and drowning , Nicons Statue . 114 , 115. Against Mr. Hobbes , that the will , if physically necessary , cannot make the action just , or unjust . 115. Against Mr. Hobbes , that men not meerly punished for noxiousness to societie . 116. Of the kil●ing of Beasts . 117. Of the necessity whereby God doth good ; it differs from Mr. Hobbes . 118. Against Mr. Hobbes , that mans libertie contradicts not Gods , or his omnipotence , 119. Nor his Prescience . 120. Of a suff●cient cause . Mr. Hobbes clearly refuted . he trifleth of moral and natural efficacy , distinct , against Mr. Hobbes . 125 , 126. Article 7. Conc●rning th● law of nature : Jus & Lex , not first distinguished by Mr. Hobbes . Of the fundamental rule of temperance , self-interest . 127 , 128. A description of Mr. Hobbes his state of Nature 129 , 130. This hypothesis refuted . 131. To such models a saying of the Lord Baco●s applyed . ibid. Of the Origin of man according to Epicurus . 132. Epicurus ( according to Gassendus ) teacheth the sa●e original of just and unjust with Mr. Hobbes . 133. An instance out of Justin of the civilitie of the Scythians without Law . ibid. All born under government . 134 , 135 , 136. There may be sin against God , and a mans self in the state of nature . 137. Some sort of murther , and theft , in a state of Nature . 138. Of promiscuous mixtures , usual among the Gentiles . 139. Scarce any consent of Nations : the chief , about the Existence of God . 140. What is right reason , and when it is the Law of Nature , and eternal . 142. Concerning the irresi●tible power of God as the measure of his actions . 144. Article 8. Of the power and right of the Civil Soveraign . 147. Laws made in vain , if self-interest be the prime Laws . The consent of Mr. Hobbes , and L.S. in Natures dowry . 148 , 149. Mr. Hobbes doctrine against the Kings Interest 149. Of the Earl of Essex . of Oliver . ibid. The doctrine of Mr. Hobbes , and Mr. White Catholick , against the Kings return . 150 , A place out of Dr. Baily , where Oliver is courted . 151. Mr. Hobbes saith falsly , that no Bishops followed the King out of the Land . 152. That Bishop Bramhal did so : his advice to the Remonstrants against Socinianism . ibid. & 153. Mr. Hobbes prov'd to speak falsly , when he saith he never wrote against Episcopacy . 155. Mr. Hobbes cu●●s zeal , ●or the late King , malicious . 156. He placeth right in present might , against the King , considering the time . 157. His doctrine destructive to Government . 161. The scurrility of his friends pref. to Liberty and necessity noted . ibid. Why the Papists contrary to the interest of the Kings government , and why Mr. Hobb's doctrine is not to be tolerated under any Government . ibid. That Mr. Hobbes doctrine de Cive is old , though bad , taught by Euphemus in an O●ation in Thucydides , and by others . 162. Of Tyranny . 163. Of the prerogative of Princes , not rightly stated by Mr. Hobbes . 165. Article 9. Of the Canon of Scripture , and its obligation before Constantine . 167. A strange saying of Dr. Westons . ibid. Of sacred books not written by those whose names they bear . 168. Of the history of Job in verse . ibid. That the writing the Canon anew by Esdras is a Fable of the Synagoga magna . Bellarmines opinion of Esdras fourth book of the Lxx. 169 , 170. Why the Apocryphall books were excluded the Canon . What books St. Hierom saw , under the title of the first of Macc. in Hebrew . 171 , 172. Of the N.T. declar'd Canon before Constan● ▪ or the Council of Laod. 173. What Pope Gelasius call'd Apocryph●l , and wh●t books he condemned . ibid. Of the Apostles Can●ns . 174. A place in Tertullian , con●●r● in t●e books of the N. T. ibid. The Copies of the N.T. not few , nor all in the hands of Ecclesiasticks , prov'd against Mr. Hobbes . Of the Traditores in Diocletian's days . 175. The N.T. Canon without the civil sanction . 176. That Christ subjected not Iews to the laws of Moses . 178 , 179. Nor the Heathens to the Laws of their Country . Idolatry there a Law , prov'd from the 12 Tables . Augus●us , Caius , Cicero , Socrates , Protagoras , Anacharsis . The design of Tiberius , for the deifying of Christ , obstructed by the Senate : and that Christ came to destroy present Idolatry . 179 , 180. Of the new laws of Christ . 181. That the commands of Christ and decrees of his Apostles , were laws , not bare counsels , against Mr. Hobbes . 184. Of the power of the Church ▪ and ●hat Mr. Hobb●s throughout his books , supposeth there is no power without force . 184 , 185. Of the Societie of the Church . 185. It is prov'd that the function Sacerdotal is not to be exercised , by the civil Soveraign without ordination : though Mr. Hobbes grants to him or any man commissioned by him , a right of Ordination , Abs●lution , Bap●izing , Administring the other Sacraments , &c. 186. Iews and Gentiles condemn'd for unbelief , and not meerly for their old sins , against Mr. Hobbes , who in that matter , fals●fyes St. John . 190. Against Mr. Hobbes , that Christ had a kingdom , and could make laws . 191. Article 10. Conc●rning profession of Christianity under p●rsecution . 192 , &c. Against Mr. Hobbes , that in any Country we are not oblig'd to active obedience . 194. Of Mr. Hobb●s , his becoming ( as Mr. Sorbiere pray'd ) a good Catholick . ibid. That we ought to suffer , rather then obey against Christ ▪ a saying of Tat●anus to that effect ▪ of the Grae●i●ns refusing prostration before the King of P●rsia . of the Christians bowing no longer before the Statues of the Emperours , when Julian added those of false Gods . 195 , 196 , 197. Of Naaman's bowing in the Temple of Rimmon . 199. Of Faith invisible , against Mr. Hobbes ▪ that we ought to profess the faith . ibid. That Christ is not to be ren●unced with the mo●th ▪ that the Magistrates command excuseth not the Apostate . of Mat. 10.23 . &c. 200 , 201. Of Martyrs , their Aera . A double sort in Mr. Hobbes . 203. Of the words Acts. 4.19 . Mr. Hobbes acc●seth them in eff●ct , of impertinencie . 207. Mr. Hobbes remitting Martyrs to heaven , fallet● into the scoff of Julian . ibid. Article 11. Concerning the future estate and place of torment . 209 , &c. Mr. Hobbes aff●rmeth , falsly , that the Torments are eternal , but not to single persons . 211. He useth the irresi●tible power , or mercy of God , as they serve his turns ; this prov'd out of ●is de Cive . 213. Against Mr. Hobbes ; that hell will not be on earth ▪ of the vast numbers of people before the floud , and in a few years after . 215. Mr. ●obbes supposeth devils , earthly enemies of Gods Church . 217. Of the second death . ibid. Whether the wicked shall be annihilated . It is prov'd against Mr. Hobbes , from Sophocles and Grotius , that a miserable life is usually expressed by death . 218. Article 12. Concerning the future estate and place of happiness . 219 , &c. Mr. Hobbes denying the immortality of the soul , granteth a future estate after the Resurrection , by Grace . Ibid. It is prov'd that the soul surviveth the body , and receiveth immediate recompence . 220 , 221. A full answer , to the place of Solomon wrested by Mr. Hobbes to prove that , in death , nothing remaineth of a man but a carcass . 222 , 223 , 224. And to those out of Job . 227. That , although God could raise the body to life , yet without the supposition of a substantial Soul , the Doctrine of Religion would be prejudiced : against Mr. Hobbes . 228. Of the Kingdom of God . Of the place of Heaven , on earth it is prov'd , that Christs Kingdom began long ago . 230 , 231. Against Mr. Hobbes , that St. Marc. 9.1 . refers to the destruction of Jerusalem , and not to the Transfiguration of Christ . 232 , 233. Of the Siege of Jerusalem by Gallus and Titus . Ibid. Coelestial bodies , in opposition to this gross flesh and bloud , confess'd , by Athenagoras and St. Hierom ▪ they seem unagreeable to an Heaven on earth 234. If a man hath no substantial soul , he cannot be the same , in the alter'd contexture of a Coelestial body . Ibid. It is prov'd from Scripture , against Mr. Hobbes , that The Heaven shall not be on earth . 235. Concerning the Argument of Christ , for the Resurrection ; against the Sadduces . 237. The double meaning of 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Ibid. An answer to 1 Cor. 15.22 . alleged by Mr. Hobbes to prove heaven on earth , and the blessed to be in the estate of innocent Adam . The Interpretation of Crellius and Vorstius . 238 , 239. Of Adams immortality on earth 240. Jerusalem not to be the Metropolis of Heaven , 241. Answer to Psal. 133.3 . produced unskilfully by Mr. Hobbes . 242. Of the New Jerusalem . Of Jerusalem above . Of the new Jerusalem descending . With what it synchronizeth . 243. Answers to the places produced , out of Isaiah ; Joel ; Obadiah ; St. John ; St. Paul ; to prove that The Heaven shall be at Jerusalem on earth , at the second coming of Christ . 244 , 245 , 246 , 247. The Conclusion . 284.

The Editions of such Books of Mr. Hobbes , as are cited in this Dialogue . ELementa Philosophica de Cive . A●●stero● . 1647. Humane Nature , London . 1650. Leviathan . London . 1651. Objectiones in Renati Des Cartes Meditationes de prima Philosophia . Amstel . 1654. Of Liberty and Necessity . Lond. 1654. De Corpore , in English , Lond. 1656. Six Lessons to the Oxford-Professors of the Mathematicks . Lond. 1656. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or marks of the absurd Geometry , Rural Language , &c. of Dr. Wallis . Lond. 1657. Elementorum Philosophiae sectio secunda de Homine . Lond. 1658. Mr. Hobbes considered , or his Letter to Dr. Wallis , concerning the Loyalty , Religion , Reputation , and manners of the Author . Lond. 1662. Mirabilia Pecci . Lond. Reprinted , 1666.

THE CREED OF Mr. Hobbes , &c. The First Part.

MR. Hobbes of Malmsbury , having pretended to furnish the World with Demonstration , in stead of talkative and contentious Learning ; and having particularly attempted to resolve the appearance● of Nature , by Principles almost wholly new , without any offensive novelty ; to discover the Faculties , Acts , and Passions of the Soul of Man , from their original Causes ▪ to ●uild upon these two foundations , the truth of Cases in the Law of Nature , and all the undoubted Elements of Government and Society ; to discourse of God , and of the most momentous Articles of Religion , in a way peculiar to himself ; and having done all this with such a confidence , as becometh only a Prophet or an Apostle : there is certainly no man who hath any share of the Curiosity of this present Age , or hath had his conversation amongst Modern Books , who yet remaineth unacquainted with his Name and Doctrine . Of these , the latter hath spread its malignity amongst us too too far , and it hath infected some who can , and more who cannot read a difficult Author . Wherefore it is the business of this little Book , to expose this insolent and pernicious Writer ; to shew unto my Countreymen that weakness of head , and venome of mouth , which is in the Philosopher , who hath rather seduc'd and poyson'd their Imaginations , than conquer'd their Reason . And in doing this , I shall assume the usual and allowed Liberty of feigning a Discourse betwixt Mr. Hobbes , and a Student in Divinity ; as also such Circumstances as gave occasion to the Dialogue , after the ensuing manner .

A certain Divine having allotted one moneth in a year for his Diversion , as also for his better information in the Topography of England , he chose , a while since , to become an eye-witness of those Wonders of the Peak , of which he had sometimes read with some content , in the elegant Prose of Mr. Cambden , and heroick numbers of Mr. Hobbes . In this Progress , he was led at length , by his Curiosity , to Buxton-Well , in such a juncture of time as he esteemed happy : For at the same hour with him , Mr. Hobbes alighted there , together with three or four other persons , of no inferiour quality ; for the old Man being a well-willer to long life , and knowing that those Waters were comfortable to the Nerves , (a) (a) M●rab . Pecc● . p. 1● . Haec r●●o● luta 〈◊〉 confirer a m●n 〈◊〉 tr●mentum , &c. Cam●d . 〈◊〉 Provinc . Da●b . p. 361. F●ntes — 〈…〉 corpori ●a●u● es , &c. and very usefull towards the prolongation of health , was not unwilling to be a visiter of them . The fellow-●ravellers of Mr. Hobbes had no sooner taken their Foot out of the Stirrop , than they were surprized by the Contents of a Letter , which a Messenger , dispatched after them , deliver'd into their hands . The business was a matter of great importance , and such as admitted of no delay , and was very improper for the attendance of Mr. Hobbes , who was therefore left by them with much excuse , and many expressions of Civility , to the sole conversation of the Divine . In their Address , Mr. Hobbes made his , with a stiff posture , and a forbidding countenance , having no ground of hoping for good usage from Men of that Order , upon which he had cast so much of his foulest Ink , besides their Christian Charity in forgiving Injuries . But it was not long before he learnt virtue from necessity , and chose , rather than to want , or seem to shun , an equal Companion , to put himself into a more sociable humour . After they had said those things which are of course amongst men in their salutations , and made known to one another their names and qualities , and purposes in this Journey , they prepar'd themselves to enter into the Bath ; whilest they were in it , in those intervalls wherein they abstain'd from swiming , and plunging themselves , they discours'd of many things relating to the Baths of the Antients , and the Origin of Springs : Amongst other sayings and enquiries of Mr. Hobbes , he at last brake forth , as it might seem , abruptly , into this Question , What Proportion is observed in the Tuscan Order ? The Divine being well aware of those sudden leaps which the mind often taketh , from one thing to another , return'd first this Answer , That the Tuscan O●der with Base and Capital must be seven times its thickness ; and then replied also , That he could follow the train of Mr. Hobbes 's imaginations , as far as that Question , having guessed within himself at the first hint of them ; which proof of his sagacity being desired , he applied himself in this sort , to the performance of his undertaking : You first ( said he ) beheld the Bath in which we are , you thence proceeded in your thoughts to the Baths of Rome Pagan ; amongst them you solicited the Fountain of Mars ; and thence your imagination passed to the rudeness of Nero , who ( as Tacitus (a) (a) Vide●atur po●us sacros & Ceremoni●m loci toto corpore poll ●isse , &c. saith , defiled those sacred Waters , and violated the Ceremony of the place , by entring with his polluted body , immediately after one of his Riots : Having thought of Nero , his barbarous act of setting Rome on fire ▪ came next into your mind ; and thence y●u were led unto the motive which did in part induce him to burn the City , that is to say , because it seem'd unto him a rude heap of inartificial structures , and might arise to a greater glory out of its ashes : The thought of building occasioned that of the Fire Orders ; and so at length your fancy was guided to the Tuscan . Mr. Hobbes acknowleged that he had conjectur'd aright , and begged pardon for that slight Question , protesting , that whilest he ●●sed , it came from him unawares , and being pleased with the quick ranging of his companions mind , which he conceived to have been assisted by the study of his own doctrine , concerning a Chain of Phantasmes , he encreased in complacence . When they had in this manner b b Mira●● . Pecc● ▪ p. 1● , 19. Postqua● vexatis , per tota● , fluctib●● , horam Lusimu● ; egressi siccis , &c. Ve●● . tos stratis expecta● c●●●ula menfis . passed away an hour , they stepped out of the Bath , and having dried and cloathed themselves , they sate down , in expectation of such a Supper as the place afforded , designing to make a meal like the Deipnosophistae , and rather to reason , than to drink profoundly . But in this innocent intention they were interrupted by the disturbance arising from a little quarrell , in which some of the ruder people in the house were for a short time engaged . At this Mr. Hobbs seem'd much concern'd , though he was at some distance from the persons . For a while he was not composed , but related it once or twice as to himself , with a low and carefull tone , how Sextu● Rostius was murthered after Supper , by the Balneae Palatinae . Of such generall extent is that Remark of Cicero , in relation to Epicurus the Atheist , of whom he observed , that he of all men , dreaded most those things which he contemned , Death and the Gods . But Mr. Hobbes having in a short space recovered himself , he was willing to enter with the Ecclesiastick , into a serious Discourse , and to examine and account for such Doctrines in his Books , as were usually accused not only of error , but likewise of downright irreligion . And for the more convenient managing of this Dialogue , the Divine addressed himself to Mr. Hobbes , to this purpose .

Student .

Before we engage in any Dispute , I am desirous to deal plainly with you , in reference to some things which may obstruct our design ; and I hope you will not interpret for contempt , my ordinary liberty of conversation . You have been represented to the world , as a person ●ivine 〈◊〉 . Di. 〈◊〉 5 ▪ 6. very inconversible , and as an imperious dictator of the principles of vice , and impatient of all dispute and contradiction . It hath been said 〈…〉 . that you will be very angry with all men that will not prese●tly submit to your dictates ; and that for advancing the reputation of your own skill , you care not what unworthy reflexions you cast on others . Monsieur Descartes c c 〈…〉 hath written it to the confident Mersennus , and it is now publish'd to all the world , that he esteem'd it the better for himself that he had not any commerce with you ; as also , that if you were of such an humour , as he imagined , and had such designs , as he believed you had , it would be impossible for him and you to have any communication , without becoming enemies . You are thought , in di●pute , to use the Scrip●ure with irreverence ; and you have 〈…〉 in a scoff men●ion'd the Focus of the Parabola of Dives and La●●rus . I am ashamed of that humour in Descartes , who hearing that Monsieur Petit 〈…〉 had a little relish'd his Meditations , said , he w●s well pleased ; adding also , that there was joy in Heaven for one sinner that converted . If you appear morose , wedded to your ▪ opinion , and profane ; if you endeavour to enervate any Ar●icle of moment in our Faith , you must expect , either to be left alone , or to undergo the effects of a just indignation . I applaud in others , and I labour after a mastery of passion in my self ; but when the honour of Religion is concern'd , it is my judgement not to suppress my warrantable zeal ; and I cannot value such a moderate man , as in a worthy cause , is neither hot , nor cold .

Mr. Hobbes .

For the morosity f f Mr. H. C●usid . p. 59 , 60. and peevishness which I am charged with , all that know me familiarly , know 't is a false accusation . But it is meant , it may be , only towards those that argue against my opinion ; but neither is that true . When vain and ignorant persons , unknown to me before , come to me on purpose to argue with me , and to extort applause for their foolish opinions , and missing of their end , fall into undiscreet and uncivill expressions , and then appear not very well contented , 't is not my morosity , but their vanity that should be blamed .

For Descartes , he was moved without cause , being jealous g g Let de M● . D. 3. tom p. 159. a● M●rsen . Rego●e p●ura ex te discat de meis principiis , quam jam novit ▪ that I should supplant him in his Principles of Philosophy . That fear was groundless ; for I differed much from him , especially in the explication of sense by motion . Let any man read Descartes , h h Mr. H. six Le●s . p. 38. he shall find that he attributeth no motion at all to the object of sense , but an inclination to action , which inclination no man can imagine what it meaneth . Touching the holy Scriptures , I am so far from irreverence towards them , that I have great regard i i Lib. & neces . p. 47. to the Articles and Decrees of our Church , suspending my sentence , where the Church hath not determined .

St●d .

It would be much satisfaction to find all this in the sequel of our Discourse , confirmed to me by experience . But whatsoever your behaviour is like to be , I cannot but fear ( having been conversant in your Leviathan ) that your opinions will deserve reproof . I have sometimes heard the substance of them comprized in twelve Articles , which sound harshly to men profe●●ing Christianity ; and they were delivered under the Title of the Hobbist's Creed , in such phrase and order as followeth .

I believe that God is Almighty matter ; that in him there are three Persons , he having been thrice represented on earth ; that it is to be decided by the Civil Power , whether he created all things else ; that Angels are not Incorporeal substances , ( those words implying a contradiction ) but preternatural impre●●●ons on the brain of man ; that the Soul of man is the temperament of his Body ; that the Liberty of Will , in that Soul , is physically necessary ; that the prime ●aw of nature in the soul of man is that of self-Love , that the Law of the Civil Sovereign is the obliging Rule of good and evil , just and unjust ; that the Books of the Old and New Testament are made Canon and Law by the Civil Powers ; that whatsoever is written in these Books , may lawfully be denied even upon oath , ( after the laudable doctrine and practice of the Gnosticks ) in times of persecution , when men shall be urged by the menaces of Authority ; that Hell is a tolerable condition of life , for a few years upon earth , to begin at the general Resurrection ; and that Heaven is a blessed estate of good men , like that of Adam be●ore his fall beginning at the general Resurrection , to be from thenceforth eternal upon Earth in the Holy-Land .

These Articles , as they are double in their number ; so do they a thousand times exceed in mischievous error , those six so properly called bloody ones , in the dayes of King Henry the eighth — Nay Sir , I beseech you set not so uneasily ; neither prepare to vent your passion ; for if it shall appear in the pursuit of this disputation , that this charge which is now drawn up , is false ; I will not persist in it , but be zealous in moving all your slanderers to lay themselves at those Feet of yours ; at which ( as you your self have written ) a a Six Less . p. 57. I beli●ve my Levia●han hath framed the minds of a 1000 Gentlemen to a conscientious obedience i● p●esent G●vernm●nt , which otherwise would have wavered in that point . so very many of our English Gentry have , with excellent effect , sate for instruction . At present I desire to take no other advantage from that presumed Creed , than may be derived from the method in which the Articles of it are propounded , as also from the particular subjects contained in them , without any forestalling assent or dissent of mind . For from thence we may fitly borrow both the Heads and the Order , of such a discourse , as will lead us without confusion , throughout all those Opinions , with which you are said , to have debauched Religion .

Let us then take our beginning from the first Article , that fundamental principle , which being removed all real Religion falls to the ground ; that is to say ; the Existence of a God . Are you then convinced , that God is ?

Mr. Hobbs .

I am . For b b Hum. Nat. p 132 & Lev. c. 12 p. 53. & Object. 5. p. 97. the effects we acknowledge naturally , do include a Power of their producing , before they were produced ; and that Power presupposeth something Existent that hath such Power : and the thing so existing with power to produce , if it were not eternal , must needs have been produced by somewhat before it , and that again by somewhat else before that , till we come to an eternal ( that is to say , the First , ) Power of all Powers , and ●●rst Cause of all Causes : and this is it which all men conceive by the name of God .

Stud.

By this argument , unwary men may be , perhaps , deceived into a good opinion of your Philosophy ; as if by the aids of it , you were no weak defender of natural Religion ; but such as with due attention , search your Books , they cannot miss a Key , wherewith they may decypher those mysterious words , and shew that in their true and proper meaning , they undermine Religion in stead of laying the ground-work of it . Des-Cartes in an Epistle to Father Mersennus a a Tom. 3. p. 419 Dat. 1641. makes mention , though with much neglect of your opinion concerning a Corporeal God , this it seems you had broached in a studied Letter , which passed through divers hands , about that time when All things Sacred began to be most rudely invaded ; to wit , the commencement of our Civil Wars . And in diver ▪ Books since that time published , you have often insinuated , and sometimes directly asserted , that whatsoever existeth is material . Seing then , it is absurd to say , that Matter can create Matter ; it followeth that the effects you speak of in your argument , are not to be understood of the very Essences of bodies ( which in your Book de Corpore b b De Corp. Part. 2. p. 84. you conceive to be neither generated nor destroyed ) but of those various changes , which by motion are caused in nature : your sense then amounteth to this impious assertion ; that in the chain of natural causes , subordinate to each other , that portion of matter which in one rank of causes and effects ( for you admit c c De Corp. c. 26. p. 307 'Till at l●st we came to one or many eternal Cause or Causes . of an eternal cause or of causes ) being it self eternally moved , d d Ibid. gave the first impulse to another body , which also moved the neighboring Body , & so forward in many links of succession , 'till the motion arrived at any effect which we take notice of , is to be called God . In the like sense the Atheist Vaninus called nature , e e Tit. lib. ● . C. V. De Admirandis naturoe R●ginae Deaeque mortalium . the Queen and Goddesse of Mortals ; being ( as saith a learned Writer ) f f D. Windet de vitam funct . Stat● . p. 13. a sottish Priest of the said Goddess , and also a most infamous sacrifice .

Mr. Hobbes .

This principle , that God is not incorporeal , is g g H. Consid. p. 32. the doctrin which I have sometimes written , and when occasion serves , maintain ; I say , therefore , that h h Leviath ; part. 4. ch. 46. p. 37 ▪ the world ( I mean not the Earth only , that denominates the lovers of it worldly men , but the Universe , that is , the whole Mass of all things that are ) is corporeal , that is to say , body ; and hath the dimensions of magnitude , namely , length , breadth and depth , also every part of body is likewise body , and hath the like dimensions ; & consequently every part of the universe is body , & that which is not body , is no part of the ●niverse : and because the universe i● all , that which is no part of it is nothing ; and consequently no where nor do's it follow from hence , that Spirits are nothing ; for they have dimensions , and are therefore really bodies ; though that name in common speech be given to such bodies only , as are visible or palpable ; that is , that have some degree of opacity . But for Spirits they call them incorporeal ; which is a name of more honor , and may therefore with more piety be attributed to God himself ; in whom we consider not what attribute expresseth best his nature , which is incomprehensible , but what best expresseth our desire to honor him .

Stud.

If every part of body be body , not only ●s to us , but in it self ; there seemeth to be such an inexhaustibleness in the least atome , as will render it , as infinite as the whole Mass of the remaining Matter , neither do I apprehend how there can ever be made a true beginning of the Theory of Nature ; if after the utmost resolution of matter , it be impossible to descend to the very root of Bodies : which Root I would name , a Physical Monad , if you would not use your standing weapons of reproach , a a Lev. p. 4.11 , 19 , 39 , 371. lib. & ●●c . p. 5. six Less . p. 56. Jargon ; nonsense ; absurd and insignificant speech . But I will pursue this perplexing Argument no further , because we must not loose sight of our main Subject , touching the Corporeity of God ; which is affirmed by you in this place , without the least offer of a Reason ; which in good earnest were a very vain attempt , for if All be matter ; seeing God is infinite and every where b b Lev. part. 2. p. 190. & Hum. Nat. p. 134 and Body cannot be at the same time in the same space with body , c c D. Corp. part 2. p. 78 , 79. ( both which by you are also granted ) then by the name of God we must understand the universe . Then d d Iupiter est quodcunque , vides quoc●nque mov●●s . whatsoever we see , or whatsoever we move towards , the same is Jupiter , and such an opinion if it once break in upon our belief , it will make a way there , by which a million of absurdities may follow after it , and that I may not seem to deceive by a general assertion , I will here repeat a few of them . It will follow thence , that All the actions of God proceed by unavoidable compulsion , from the mechanic Laws of moving and moved Matter . That some parts of the Deity perceive , what others do not , there being in divers bodies , divers Re-actions , in which you place the nature of conception a a Lev. p. 3. &c. & . part. 4. p. 352. &c. in organized matter ; and must also allow the same in that which hath neither brain nor heart , if you will admit of perception every where , in Your Deity . That if any parts of matter be perfectly at rest , then such parts of the Deity , ( suppose of Gold , Lead , or Marble ) are without understanding , and thus in opposition to the Sovereign God , whose being and knowledge are no where excluded , you have set up a Baal of your own , of which one part is asleep , in the depth of Rest ; and the other is in a journey hurried by motion . It will also follow from this principle of yours , that Idolatry which you somwhere b b Lev. part. 4. p. 359. to 366. condemn as sinful , is no crime ; it being no other than an amicable officiousness in one part of the Deity towards the other , if the Universe be God ; and here a saying of Athenagoras c c Athenag . Leg. pro Christian. p. 14. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 comes in fit time into my mind ; and it is to this effect . If God and Matter be the same thing under differing appellations ; we are impious if we deny to Stones and Trees , to Gold and Silver divine honor . Lastly , if the Universe be God , then Cain , and Cham , and Pharaoh , and Herod , and Pila●e , and Iuda , and ( that I may say it with sufficient emphasis ) the Teacher also of this doctrin is part of the Deity .

Mr. Hobbes .

This d d H. consid. p. 62.63 . is all error and railing , that is , stinking wine , such as a Jade le ts fly , when he is too hard girt upon a full Belly .

Stud.

This nasty metaphor is widely misplaced , whilst instead of saying that I am hard girt , you should have confess'd your self ( for that 's the truth ) to have been galled to the quick . For my self , ● was not intemperate in my passion , but zelous in the truth : but your language is both foul and unjust ▪ and ( to allude further to the beast you speak of ) you therefore boggle and foam , because of a sudden there is too much Light let in upon you , but laying aside this reviling humor , which is common ▪ not with ingenious Phylosophers , but with people of poor and evil education ; let me with calmness be informed of those Reasons , upon which you so confidently support your self in maintaining the materiality of God .

Mr. Hobbes .

Before I repeat my Reasons , I wil● let you understand that I have expresly taught i● My Leviathan , a a Lev. p●rt . 2. p. that those Phylosophers , who said the World , or the Soul of the World wa● God , speak unworthily of him ; and denied his Existence : for by God is understood the Cause of the World ; and to say that the World is God , is to to say , there is no cause of it , that is , no God .

Stud.

In this you are at agreement with me , but seem to contradict your self , for here you deny that the World is God , and elsewhere you defend it most pertinaciously , that All is Body , which 〈◊〉 it be , then as hath been said ) the whole is God , if he existeth ; seeing nothing that is , can give bounds unto his in●inite nature , and Body can be a neighbour to Body , but not an Inhabitant . In some places you write down , and in others you dash out your fancy of a corporeal God : you have said , that whatsoever is , is Body ; you have also written , b b Ibid. that to attribute to God , parts or totality , is not honour , because they are attributes only of things finite : and now methinks you should not be so impatient of contradiction from others , seeing you swallow it without straining in your own Books . But from this diversion , please to return unto those promised Reasons , wherewith you are wont to manage this Argument of the materiality of our Creator .

Mr. Hobbes .

In this I will comply with you ; and my care c c F.B. Ep. to Humna● . it is , and labour , to satisfie the judgement and reason of mankind .

And first , d d H. Consid. p. 32 , 33. what kind of attribute , I pray you , is immaterial or incorporeal substance ▪ Where do you find it in the Scripture ? Whence came it hither , but from Plato and Aristotle , Heathens , who mistook those thin inhabitants of the brain they see in sleep , for so many incorporeal men ; and yet allow them motion , which is proper only to things corporeal ? Do you think it an honour to God to be one of these ? And would you learn Christianity from Plato and Aristotle ? But seeing there is no such word in the Scripture , how will you warrant it from natural reason ? Neither Plato nor Aristotle did ever write of , or mention an incorporeal spirit ; for they could not conceive how a spirit , which in their language was 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , ( in ours , a wind ) could be incorporeal .

Stud.

In this first Endeavour ( for a Reason I cannot style it ) there are many things which appear to me absurd . You tell us that the Attribute of Incorporeal was borrowed from the Heathens , Plato and Aristotle ; and yet almost in the same breath , you say , that neither of them did ever write of , or mention an incorporeal spirit . You reproach us , as learning Christianity ( in stead of which you ought to have used the more proper term of Natural Theology ) from such Heathens ; and thereby you seem to herd with that ignorant multitude , who of late decry'd all humane Learning , upon pretence that it was heathenish and prophane , as if the Pearl of Wisdome and Reason were so besmear'd by the usage of the Heathens , as to be rendred unfit for the touch and service of a Christian Philosopher . You again are too too much in their humour , whilest you require expres● mention of a term in holy Scripture , and upon the supposed silence of it , reject the notion which may be delivered in another form of words . And moreover , when you say that Plato and Aristotle could not conceive a spirit , by reason that with them it signified a wind , to be incorporeal ; therein also you ought not to have used such confidence in your assertion : for if wind be motion , and motion be so unglued and loose , as to pass from Body to Body , I know not whether the n●me of wind may not more promote , than obstru●t the apprehension of an incorporeal Being . We are informed by Sextus Empiricus , a a S●xr . Emp. Pyr. upp . l. 3. c. 17. p. 13● . that some of the Antients contended expresly for the incorporeity of motion . I mean by motion , that force so little yet understood , which is the cause of the translation of bodies , and not , as you somewhere b b De Corp. pa●t. 2. c. 8. p. 79. speak , the relinquishing of one place , and acquiring another .

But leaving this subtiler Consideration , I will proceed to shew , that neither the Scripture , nor the School of Plato , or Aristotle , is wholly unacquainted with the Doctrine of an incorporeal spirit . Concerning the holy Scripture , it saith , that God created all things , and filleth all things , and therefore it teacheth that he is immaterial . And for the very term , we may perhaps meet with it in the words of our blessed Lord c c Luke 24 39. who appearing to the doubting and amazed Disciples , encouraged and confirmed their faith , by saying to them , Lay hold of me , handle me , and see that I am not an incorporeal Daemon : you will now tell me , that I follow not the true Copy of the New Testament , in the translation of this produced Text. I defend my self , by answering , that I follow holy Ignatius , who in his undoubted Epistle to those of Smyrna d d Ign. Ep. ed. Vess . p. 3. cited both by Eusebius and St. Hierome , bringeth in our Lord using these words , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . This excellent person who saw our Lord after his resurrection , did either cite the words exactly e e He pref●c●th to th●m by 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , he said unto them , not adding , to this purpose , or else , which also strengtheneth my cause , he e●press'd the sence of them , according as it was received in the incorruptest Age of the Christian Church .

Concerning the Philosophy of Plato , in relation to the Question which lay before us , there is nothing more received , than that he affirmed the most celestial parts of matter , neither to be God , or Angel , or spirit of man , but to be 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , ( as is the phrase of Hierocles ) the spiritual Chariots of prae-existing Angels , or of departed minds . In the beginning of the Dialogue with the Jew Trypho , Iustin Martyr a a J●st . M●r● . op. p 219. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. at large , relating his small proficiency under the Tutorage of a Stoick , a Peripatetick , and a Pythagorean , adds also , that he adjoyn'd himself at last to a Platonist of great fame ; that he improved daily by his instruction ; that he was extreamly pleas'd , amongst other parts of science , by him taught , with the notion of incorporeal beings : and if I well remember , the great admirer of Plato , Psellus , has call'd the Soul an immaterial and incorporeal fire . b b 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . And touching Plato himself , I am sure that I have read this Maxime in his Politicus , c c Plat. Pol. Ed. Fir. p. 182. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Soc● . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . that incorporeal Beings , which are of all others the most glorious and great , are only conspicuous to the faculty of Reason , which though it be there said by Hospes , yet it is approved of by Plato himself , under the name of Socrates , who reply'd , that he had excellently spoken . Neither will I pass by the testimony of Aristotle , who by his separate Intelligences , meaneth ( saith Ben Maimon ) d d More Nerochim , part. 2. c. 6. p. 200. the same with those , who maintain the existence of incorporeal Angels . And concerning the rational soul , he teacheth , e e Arist de An. l. 2. c. 1. that it is separable from the body , because it is not the Entelech of any body , having a while before enquired whether it be endued with any peculiar function , not arising from this compounded estate . He also f f Ar. de Coelo . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 denieth , that motion can arise from a body .

Mr. Hobbes .

It is manifest by your thick quotations , that you are much in love with Authority ; to that therefore in the second place I will refer you . Know then g g Mr. H. Cons. p. 37. that whatsoever can be inferr'd from the denying of incorporeal substances , makes Tertullian , one of the antientest of the Fathers , and most of the Doctors of the Greek Church , as much Atheists , as my self .

Stud.

You have not , by this means , advanc'd your hopes of victory ; for I shall make it evident , that the Forces in whose numbers you trust , are falsly muster'd . The Fathers of the Greek Church believe in the same sence with the Doctors of our own , that God is a Spirit : for Ignatius , and Iustin Martyr , you have heard already on what side they stand .

Athenagoras , in his Embassie , in behalf of the Christians , to M. Aurelius Antoninus , and L. Aurelius Commodus , discourseth to this purpose . a a Athen. Leg. p. 5. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. The Athenians did most justly condemn Diagoras for sacrilegious impiety , who rather than his Coleworts should remain unboyl●d , would cut in pieces the Statue of Hercules , who also did expresly affirm that there was no God at all . But as for us , who separate God from matter , and teach that God is one thing , and matter another , the reproach of Atheism is most unreasonably and injuriously charg'd upon our Creed . The same Athenagoras , in a few Pages after this discourse b b Ath. p. 9. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . again professeth , not as his private opinion , but as the faith of the Christians of that Age , that God admitteth not of any division , neither consisteth of any parts . Then for Theophilu● , the Patriarch of Antioch , who likewise writeth , not as a private man , but as a common Apologist for the Christians ; he tells Antolycus the Heathen c c Theoph. Antioch . l 2 p 81. that God is every where , and that every thing is in God . Had he believed God to have been a Body , he would not have placed all other Beings in his boundless Essence , unless we shall take the boldness to accuse the holy Patriarch of that fault , which Des-Cartes imagined he had espied in your self , of failing d d Obj. & Resp. 3. p. 103. R●●p . ad Obj. 12. M●ro●que m● nullam hacte●●s rectam ●llationem in ●is objectioui●us invenisse . whatsoever the Premisses be , in the Illations deduced from them . If we consult Tatianus , in his Oration contra Graecos , we shall likewise obtain his suffrage e e Tat. Assyr . p. 162. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . for the immateriality of the first cause . There are , said Tatianus , who do maintain that God is a Body ; I am not of the same belief with them , for my perswasion is , that he is incorporeal . E●sebius may be produc'd in the same place f f Eus dem . Evang. l. 3. p. 69. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. both against your self , touching the materiality , and against Idolater● , touching the worship of Angels ; for thus he speaks , We have learn't to honour the incorporeal powers , according to the degree of their dignity , ascribing divine honour to God alone . St. Athanasius tells the Followers of Sabellius , that it is a very childish and foolish conceit , by the eye , or by the circumscription of place , to comprehend that which is incorporeal g g Ath. cont. Sab. gr●g . tom. 1. p. 660. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. understanding this speech of the infinite Majesty of Almighty God . St. Chrysostome in the same place affirmeth , God and the soul of man , to be incorporeal . h h Ap. Sandit interp. Parad. in ● c. 4 . 2● . p. 197. I might here subjoyn in favour of the common opinion , St. Iren●eus , i i I●en . l. 3. c. 23. p. 290. St. Basil , St. Gregory Nazianzen , St. Gregory Nyssen ▪ St. Epiphanius , and a long order of others , if it were not a needless labour , and would not look more like o●tentation , than necessary defence of truth .

Some indeed of the Antients believed Angels not to be wholly incorporeal ; and St. Hierome placeth it amongst the Errors of Origen , that he ascribed to Angels , bodies of Air : they taught not , that Body was their sole essence , but their cloathing . So that to speak after your own manner a a Lib. & Nec . p. 6. I observe a great part of those Forces , by the strength of which you contend against incorporeal substances , to look and march another way .

Mr. Hobbes .

Tertullian however is on my side ; for he b b Mr. H. Consid. p. 37 , 38. in his Treatise de Carne Christi , sayes plainly , Omne quod est , corpus est sui generis ; ni hil est incorporale , ●isi quod non est . That is to say , Whatsoever is any thing , is a body of its kind ; nothing is incorporeal , but that which has no being . There are many other places in him to the same purpose ; for that doctrine served his turn to confute the heresie of them that held , that Christ had no body , but was a Ghost : also of the soul he speaks as of an invisible body . You see what fellows in Atheism you joyn with me .

Stud.

Some perhaps might here reply , that Tertullian was a single witness , and that his testimony might appear invalid , because he was condemned of old , as an Heretick for this very Doctrine ; because he was a man of a various Creed ; because he was better skilled in the Laws of the Roman Empire , than in those of nature ; at least that he attended not to the phylosophick consequence of his opinion ; lastly , because to avoid his adversaries , he ran too nigh the other extreme , and would have used different weapons in another controversie . But it will be more agreeable to the reverence which we owe to that very antient and learned Writer , to explain one place in him by another , than rudely to accuse him . It is therefore to be noted , that Tertullian sometimes called the passive matter by the name of body , and sometimes by body understood the meer substance , being , or essence of things . In the first sence , are those words to be expounded , which we find in his Book de Animâ . c c Te●tul . de An. c. 7. p. 268. In quantum omne corporale , passibile est , in tantum quod passibile est , corporale est . Now it is not to be imagined , that in this meaning of the word Corpus , a body should be attributed to the impassible Nature of God , by a man who devoutly adored his Perfections . For the second sence , I will alledge the explication which he himself hath made , in his Book against Hermogenes d d Tert. advers Herm. c. 35 p. 246. the Phylosopher and Painter , who being perhaps debauched by his very profession , which chiefly imploy'd his fancie , affirmed that matter was co-eternal with God . Nisi fallor enim , omnis res aut corporalis aut incorporalis sit necesse est : ut concedam interim aliquid incorporale de substantiis dun●axat , cum ipsa substantia corpus sit rei cujusque And in the very words which Us●er in those , now cited by you , and craftily conceal'd , it is apparent that by body , Tertullian meant only essence , and not impenetrable matter . The words are these , Quum autem sit , habeat necesse est aliquid , per quod est : Si habet aliquid per quod est , hoc erit corpus ejus . Omne quod est corpus , est sui generis .

Mr. Hobbes .

Of Authority enough , let us consult natural Reason , by attending to which I maintain , a a Hum. Nat. p. 1●8 . that Incorporeal Body , is not a name but an absurdity of speech ▪ Spirits b b Hum. Nat. p. 135 supernatural commonly signifysie some substance without dimension ; which two words do flatly contradict one another . I say , again , c c Lev. c. 4. p 17. an Incorporeal Body or ( which is all one ) an incorporeal sub●tance , is a name made up of two names , which have significations contradictory and inconsistent , for d d Obj●ct . 9 p. 100. Subst●ntia est materia subjecta accid●nlibus , & mutationibus . a substance is matter , subject to accidents and alterations . If a man e e Lev. c 5. p. 19. should talk to me of a round Quadrangle ; or accidents of Bread in Cheese , or immaterial substances ; — I should not say he were in an error , but that his words were without meaning ; that is to say , absurd . Though men may f f Lev. c. 12 p. 53. put together words of contradictory signification , as spirit and incorporeal , yet they can never have the imagination of any thing answering to them . Substance incorporeal g g Lev. c. 34. p. 207. are words , which when they are joyned together destroy one another . I say again , h h Lev. c. 34. p. 214. that to men that understand the signification of these words , substance and incorporeal , as incorporeal is taken , not for subtil body , but for not body , they imply a contradiction .

Stud.

This unbacked confidence in an argument of such moment , provokes me to tell you , that you are as notorious in repeating , as those Priests whom men of your perswasion are wont to flout at , whilst they should rather have regard to the dulness of their common Audience : as also , that if all things twice said , or elsewhere written by you were picked out ; your Great Leviathan would shrink to a little Scallop .

But to reason with you in your own way , I deny it , once and again , that the speech , Incorporeal Substance , either is or implies a contradiction , there 's a bare Nay , of as good strength , as your naked affirmation , you have somewhere promised a a Hum. Na● p. 2. ●● to endeavor as much as you could , to avoid too happy concluding : but here you are so hasty , as to leap over all proper premises into such a conclusion , as is made only by a stiff and presumptuous will . But I will be content to answer also , that we forsake the usage of speech , when we confound the names of Body and Substance . The Logicians , who are at variance in other matters , consent in this , that a Substance is either material , or immaterial . If you resolve to fix a sence to the word , Substance , which hitherto all Custome ( which is th● Interpreter of Speech ) ha's determin'd ag●inst ; you usurp too great Authority . M. Pomponius Marcellus fear'd not to tell Tiberius the Emperor , who had us●d a word not truly Latin , in one of his Edicts ; that b b S●et●n . de 〈◊〉 G●amm●● . p. 23. in M. ● M. T is eni● Caesar 〈…〉 Ve●bis seem●th t●● be●●er ●●●ding . it was in his Power to make Men , but not to make Words free of the City .

Mr. Hobbes .

Do you understand M● . H. ●o●s p 33. the connexion of Substance and Incorporeal ? If you do , explain it in English ; for the words are Latine . It is something , you 'l say , that being without Body stands under — stands under what ? will you say under accidents ? almost all the Fathers of the Church will be against you ; and then you are an Atheist .

Stud.

By avoiding the word , Substance , by which ( in despight of general use ) you will mean Body , your cavil vanisheth : for if we should use the terms of , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Being , or Essence ; affirming that God is a Being which neither is , nor ha's a Body , you will be of a very quick and sagacious Nose to smell out a contradiction in words so put together . For to Be , and to be without Body , are not terms which destroy each other . It might then be inferred , that all moral virtues and all Physical notions were names and nothing else . But I will admit of the word , Substance , and ( which may seem a concession with advantage ) of the word , Matter , too , without any real prejudice to this Cause , for by Substance is frequently under●●ood ( as Des-Cartes himself , d d Resp. tertiae p. 94. Sub ratione substantiae vele●iam si lubet , sub ratione materiae nempe Metaphysicae . who favour●d not the abuse of words ha's phras●d it ) Metaphysic-Matter . That Matter is the subject about which our mind is conversant , whither it be a feigned notion , a name , a privation , or negation ; for as Plato ha●s observed , the Art of Reasoning , handles , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Matters , which are not real , after the manner of Reals ; and Aristotle ( whom you are wont to cite when he may serve your occasion ) divideth a a Ar. ● . 8. M●t c. 6. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . matter into intelligible and sensible ; not meaning , as is manifest from his context , such matter as is composed of imperceptible parts , but such as I now describ'd . Cicero b b ●nver . Or. 8 l. 3. p. 203. likewise calleth Indoles by the name of Matter .

But substance ( you say ) being construed aright , doth signifie something that standeth under , under what , when ascrib'd to God ? that 's your smart question , it soundeth hastily to answer under Accidents , which are for the most part appurtenances to Body . But if I say , under Attributes ( seeing the Anti-Remonstrants have of late allowed it for good Doctrin , that the Decrees of God are not the very essence of God ; ) c c Vide A●min Ex. Thes. Gom. p. 159. & Goma● . Tom. 3. Disp. 9. I am not for such an answer , so nigh the borders of Atheism ( you should have said of Heresie ) as you by your false prospective are ready to espie me . But to take away all occasion of further cavil about this name , Incorporeal Substance ; I will at last referr you to the Law , towards which you pretend the profoundest reverence , submitting your very words at the Foot-stool of such Authority . If then a Substance signifieth Body ; and every thing that is , be body ; then is the first Article of the nine and thirty ( which ha's as much validitie in Law , as the Kings Broad-Seal can give it , which I know you judge sufficient ) an heap of absurd and inconsistent words , for , in that Article we are taught that there is but one Living and true God , Everlasting , without Body , Parts or Passions .

Mr. Hobbes .

To those Doctrins of the Church , which are made Law by the Kings Authority , I owe reverence ; and have alwaies a will to pay it , in pursuance of which will , I have taught in my Leviathan , d d Lev. part. 2. p. 190. and you your self a while since took notice of it , that to attribute Totality or parts to God , is not to honor him ; you may likewise understand , that my opinion concerning God , sayes nothing of him , but that he is . Forasmuch e e Hum. Nat. p. 132. as God Almighty is Incomprehensible , it followeth , that we can have no conception or Image of the Deity , and consequently all his Attributes signifie our inability and defect of power to conceive any thing concerning his Nature , and not any conception o● the same , excepting only this , that there is a God . The Nature , I say , of God f f Lev. c. 34 p. 208. is incomprehensible ; that is to say , we understand nothing of what he is , but only that he is ; and therefore the Attributes we give him , are not to tell one another what he is , nor to signifie our opinion of his Nature , but our desire to honor him with such Names , as we conceive most honorable amongst our selves . S. Lev. p. 53. & p. 371. & Hum. Nat. p. 134 & H. cons. p. 31.

Stud.

To this last effort of yours , there are divers things to be replyed ; and in the first place , whereas you have said that to attribute parts to God , is not to honor him ; it follows then , that you , who would seem to mention his Nature with the highest degree of veneration , have notwithstanding a most unworthy conceit of him ; seeing to call him Body , is to cast the reproach of having parts upon him . So that the character which Cicero gave of the Herd of Epicurus , will not be disagreeable to the followers of a Phylosopher whom you know very well ; in words they affirm , but in truth they deny the Existence of God b b Verbi● quidem ponunt rei●sa tollunt Deos . .

Again , whilst in your opinion the Deity is so incomprehensible , that you understand not any thing of his Nature ; but profess to honor him at adventures , by such tokens of esteem as are in use with men : or by such as imply our inability to conceive of him ; the burthen of our holy Lord against the blind Zealots of Samaria , may be most justy taken up against you , who worship , you know not what ? and to say that God is , and also that you apprehend not any attribute that properly appertaineth to his nature , is only to pronounce of God , as of an indefinite Name : for such is naked Being , strip●d and devested o● all such attributes as are required to particularness or distinction of things . Tell me not ●ow , c c Hum. Nat. p. 133. Obj. ● . p. 97. Lev. c. 11. p. 51. that though it be not possible for a man that is born blind , to have any imagination what kind of thing fire is , yet he cannot but know somewhat there is , that men call fire , because it warmeth him : for it is not to be concluded from that similitude , that all that will consider , may know that God is , though not what ; he is for a Blind man warmed by the fire understandeth well , because he feeleth the true nature of it , which consisteth not in the colour or shining of i● , but in that sensation which ariseth in him from his nerves touched by such of the more earthy parts of matter , as are put into vehemen agitation . That God is incomprehensible in some sense , is acknowledged by all , who will not arrogantly suppose their minds , as infinite as God , but to say ●hat we know not any thing of God , because we have not an adequate conception of him , is as absurd , as if a Navigator should affirm , that he knows nothing of the Sea , but that it is , because he cannot fathom the utmost depths of it . Maimonides , in the same place d d More Nev. c. 59. part. 1. p. 98 99. acknowledgeth God to be incomprehensible , yet sheweth that he is incorporeal ; and that something is to be known of him , besides his bare existence , because some men have better apprehensions concerning God than others , who are equal with them in knowing that he is , we pretend not by searching , to find out God ; to find out the Almighty to perfection , but after some imperfect degree of knowledge to apprehend his Nature , if this be denyed to the mind of man , after the most sagacious ranging of it ; and if the attributes , not only of incorporeal and Omnipotent , but also of good , and just , and holy , and true , be not some real strokes of the divine Image , but only marks of honor in the societies of men , then is it an impossible undertaking ( so far will it be from the rule of Religion ) to labor to imitate Him we worship , then are those places to be blotted out of the holy Canon wherein 't is written , That God is Love : that we must be holy , because God is holy : that it behoveth us to be merciful ( for the quality of our virtue ) as our Father , who is in Heaven is merciful , than by affirming that God is good , or just , or holy , we cannot assure our selves , that we shall not by such speeches talk wickedly for God .

Mr. Hobbes .

That e e Lib. nece●●. p. 21. which men make amongst themselves here by Pacts and Covenants , and call by the name of Justice , and according whereunto men are accounted and termed rightly just or unjust , is not that by which God Almighties actions are to be measured or called just , no more than his Counsels are to be measured by humane wisdome , that which he do's is made just by his doing of it , just I say , in him , though not alwayes just in us .

Stud.

Of eternal reasons of good and evil , we may discourse more pertinently , in our intended Disquisition touching the Law of Nature , and the obligation of humane Laws . Yet I cannot abstain from interposing here this short reply , that although the most incomprehensible God has not submitted all the Acts of his boundless wisdome to our narrow Judgements , yet for his Acts of justice and equity , he hath appealed to the reason of mankind ; which therefore is an universal and eternal standard , and not made a just and equal measure , by the meer seal and allowance of humane authority . O Inhabitants of Ierusalem , and men of Iudah , judge I pray you ( saith God Almighty ) betwixt me and my Vineyard ! f f Isa. 5.3 , 4. He also by the Prophet Ezekiel g g Ezek. 18.25 , 29. maketh appeal to the faculties of mortal men , touching the equity of his dispensations . Ye say the way of the Lord is not equal ; hear now , O house of Israel ! Is not my way equal ? Are not your wayes unequal ?

Mr. Hobbes .

I am willing to dismiss this Argument for a time , and to re-assume it , as you propounded , in its more proper place . In the mean time , I will go on with my opinion , concerning the incomprehensible nature of God . It is h h Mr. H. Cons. p. 31. by all Christians confest , that God is incomprehensible ; that is to say , that there is nothing can arise in our fancy from the naming of him , to resemble him , either in shape , colour , stature , or nature ; there is no Idea of him . At i i Hobbii Obj. 5. p. 97 the venerable name of God , we have no Image or Idea of God ; and therefore we are forbidden to worship God by an Image , lest we seem to our selve● to conceive him , who is unconceivable . Christian Religion k k Obj. 11. p. 10● . obligeth us to believe that God is unconceivable , that is , as I understand it , such a one of whom we have no Idea . And Reason teacheth , that because l l Lev. c. 3. p. 11. whatsoever we conceive , has been perceived first by sense , either all at once , or by parts , a man can have no thought representing any thing , not subject to sense .

Stud.

If ●od be a body , seeing man may have an image of extention , and of all the possible figures , which may be made by the varieties of extention in matter , what hindreth that we may not have , in your gross way , an Image of God ? But because he is an immaterial substance , we cannot indeed have any bodily resemblance of him ; but there is in every man a power to have an Idea of him . For although it hath been said that there have been found whole Nations ( as in the Western World in Brasil ) who have liv'd without the least suspicion of an infinite Being , yet there is no Nation so very barbarous , wherein the Inhabitants have no faculty at all of exciting in them , this Idea of God . And here I cannot but reprehend it , as a very shamefull error , in a man who placeth truth in the right ordering of names , and pretendeth a a See Lev. c. 4. p. 15. to begin the sciences , by setling at first the significations of their words , to confound the names of Image and Idea , as if they were terms of equal importance . It is also an argument of thickness of mind , of a soul not yet advanced above the power of fancy , to say that no man hath , or can have any kind of conception without an Image , as if nothing were authentically written upon the table of our minds , without a seal and sensible impression affixed to it . I conceive ( said a very learned person ) b b Ep. to R. before Phylos . E●say . that case in this to be alike , as if whilest two men are looking at Iupiter , one with his naked eyes , the other , with a Telescope ; the former should avow that Iupiter had no attendants , and that it were impossible he should have any . The reason why Mr. Hobbes denies immaterial Beings , whilest other men apprehend them , is , for that he looks at them with his fancy : they , with their mind . By Idea , is understood , not meerly a corporeal similitude , but any notion without imagery , and whatsoever occurreth in any perception : the very form of cogitation , whereby I become conscious to my self that I have perceived , is an Idea . And Plato , to whose School we owe chiefly this name of Idea , has expresly contended for a knowledge , soaring above the ken of fancy , and taught us , that the greatest and most glorious objects have no Im●ge c c Plat. Po●●● . p. 1●1 . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. attending on their perception . And Clemens Alexandrinus d d Cl●m . Al. Adm. ad G●nt p. 34 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. in his admonition to the Gentiles , told them , with reference to their Idolatry , that the Christians had not any sensible image of sensible matter in their divine worship , but that they had an intelligible Idea of the only sovereign God . There is a great difference betwixt an object seen through a polished Chryst●l , and a piece of painted Glass ; and there is a far greater difference betwixt the Idea of God in a perspicuous mind , and the notion of a God taken through the pictures of Imagination . When we consider that all perfections that are , or can be thought of , by man a second cause , are more eminently to be ascribed to the first ; and when we further conceive , that it is much better to have wisdom , power , truth , justice , goodness , than to want them , and that th●refore they are , in any being , so many perfections , and when we thence indefinitely extend those perfections by the utmost stretch of our minds , we form aright ▪ though not by way of adequate comprehension , such a true and pure Idea of God , as is not discoloured by corporeal phantasms . But because you move in the lower sphear of fancy , you must be satisfi'd in your own way , and be instructed through a corporeal image , or otherwise you will not admit of any Idea . The Iews of old were of that unreasonable temper , who although they had miracles wrought amongst them , exceeding great , great as their own unbelief ▪ yet would not they be contented without a sign from Heaven , such as was that of the descent of Manna , to which that Nation had sometimes been more accustom'd . But if this should naturally be in others , as it seemeth accidentally to be in you , the effect of poring upon points , and lines , and figures ; to conceive nothing without a bodily image , Archimedes and Euclid should as soon by me be condemned to the flames , as Aretine , and any of the Histoires G●lantes .

But because you stick in this lower Form of Imagination , I will therefore attempt to take you out such a lesson , as is most agreeable to you in that capacity .

Call to mind then , that you begin your na●●ral Phylosophy a a De Corp. c. 7. p. ●7 . from a feigned annihilation of the World , though you dwell not upon the notion of empty space remaining , but straightway fill it with the phantasms of all such bodies , as before their supposed annihilation , you had perceived by your eyes , or any other instruments of sense . And I must note it by the way , that you except man only from this universal annihilation of things , and leave not God out of it , although his Idea implying necessary existence , the not retaining of him , be a contradiction . After this , you lay aside those phantasms , and b b De Corp. p. 68. grant a conception of boundless space . You likewise maintain that body and space are not the same ; and you conceive , though you do not assert , a Vacuum .

Mr. Hobbes .

No man c c De Co●p . ib. Sect 2. calls this phantasm , space , for being already filled , but because it may be filled ; nor does any man think bodies carry their places away with them , but that the same space contains sometimes one , sometimes another body , which could not be , if space should alwayes accompany the body which is once in it . — Place d d Ib c. 8 p. 77. is immoveable ; for seeing that which is moved is understood to be carried from place to place , if place were moved , it would also be carried from place to place , so that one place must have another place , and that place another place ▪ and so on infinitely , which is ridiculous . And for the conceit of Vacuum , I say e e Ib. p. 79. Sect. 9. that though between two bodies there be put no other body , yet if there intercede any imagined space , which may receive another body , then those bodies are not contiguous . I suppose also f f P. 83. Sect. 19. that a finite body , at rest , when all space besides is empty , will rest for ever .

Stud.

Be it so . From hence it may be collected , that you conceive of space , as of something without your mind , into which you suppose no notion can come but from some outward object . You conceive it as something , which doth exist betwixt two bodies , and hindreth the contiguity of them : for bodies are not therefore separated , because I so magine ; but because t●ey are not contiguous , I have an imagination of their distance , and of something interceding . Seeing also you must acknowledge , that this Vacuity may be conceived , greater or less , you cannot imagine ●hat as a meer nothing , which is capable of such affections . You then by consequence ( though in direct terms you will not grant it ) conceive this space as a phantasm of something ; yet not of body , seeing you have said , one body may relinquish and another possess the same immoveable space ; whereby it follows , that you apprehend it as a phantasm o● such a Being , as has largeness and penetration appertaining to it . Extend then your conception of this space indefinitely ; and remember that you conceive the world without any involution of body in body , placed in it ; and that it may remain in your imagination after you have by fiction destroy'd the visible world ; and that the imagined space is such , as you cannot disimagine ; and observe at last , whether you have not attained in your own way , to some competency of fancying an infinite immaterial Being . For my self I have been apt to think of space , as a phantasm of body , really existing ; and because I conceive this boundless extention , by you suppos'd an iniquity , as dull and unactive , and understand not how to deduce from it , or apply to it , the moral perfections which appertain to the Idea of God ; I therefore suspend my sentence . But the Argument presseth yourself , who distinguish the conceptions of space and body , beyond the probability of a Rejoynder .

If you were much concerned for Authority , I would here suggest to you , that St. Paul affirms of God , that in him we live and move ; and that it is said by Theophilus A●tiochenus , a a Ad Ant. l. 2 p. 81. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . as also by Tertullian ( the Author whom you your self celebrate , that God b b Te●t . adv. Prax. p. ●03 . a. &c. is the Place of all Beings But touching the particular explication of such sayings , let every man abound in his own sence .

And now having spun out this first S●bject of our Discourse , ( concerning the Immateriality of God ) into such an undesigned length , I remember no Conclusion less improper for the winding of it up ( if it may stand with your good liking ) than the Apostrophe of Arnobius , which may thus be rendred : c c Arn. l. 1. p. 17. O thou greatest and chiefest Creator of invisible things ! O thou invisible Divinity , never to be comprehended by the scanty compass of created minds ! Thou art worthy , thou art truly worthy ( if our unhallow'd mouths may presume to mention that transcendent worthiness ) to receive from every understanding nature , never-ceasing praise ; to be petitioned throughout our lives , ( too short alas for such devotion ) with the humblest prostrations ; for thou art the First Cause , the Place and Space of Things , the foundation of the Universe , infinite , unbegotten , immortal , eternal , whom no corporeal Image can describe , no circumscription can determine .

We have dwelt long on this first head ; and it was necessary on my part to pursue it with such a copiousness : for if this foundation of the corporeity of all things had not been shaken , your superstructures would have become almost inexpugnable by Phylosophy . But this being rendred sandy and unsound , there will be the less work and strength required to the demolishing of those ; and so in our proceeding , we may imitate ( perhaps ) the descent of heavy bodies , making the more hast , the further we go . I 'm sure in our next Subject ,

The holy Trinity ; we cannot speak much , and well , it being a deep and revered mystery .

Mr. Hobbes .

That Doctrine is entangled in words , whereby there is little said of it intelligibly . Hypostatical a a Lev. c. 5. p. 21. is a name that signifies nothing , but is taken up , and learned by rote from the canting Schoolmen . The b b Lev. c. 42 p. 268 , 269 doctrine of the Trinity , as far as can be gathered directly from the Scripture , is in substance , this , that the God who is alwayes one and the same , was the person represented by Moses ; the person represented by his Son incarnate ; and the person represented by the Apostles . The true God c c Lev. c. 16. p. 82. may be personated ; as he was , First , by Moses , who governed the Israelites , ( that were not his , but Gods people ) not in his own name , with Hoc dicit Moses , but in God● name , with Hoc dicit Dominus . Secondly , by the Son of man , his own Son , our blessed Saviour Jesus Christ , that came to reduce the Ie●s , and induce all Nations into the Kingdom of his Father ; no● as of himself , but as sent from his Father . And thirdly , by the holy Ghost , or Comforter , speaking and working in the Apostles ; which holy Ghost was a Comforter , that came not of himself , but was sent , and proceeded from them both . d d It is pl●in from Lev. p. 210 214 215. that he means not a person by the H. G. but zeal . The voice of God in a dream . Gifts ; the power of God working by causes to us unknown . Moses and the Priests , e e Lev. c. 33 ● . 204 , 205 the Man Ch●ist , and the Apostles , and the Successors to Apostolical power , these three at several times did represent the person of God : Moses , and his Successors the High Priests , and Kings of Iudah , in the Old Testament ; Christ himself , in the time he lived on earth ; and the Apostles and their Successo●s from the day of Pentecost , to this day . God f f Lev. p. 266. is one person as represented by Moses , and a●●o her person , as represented by his Son the Christ : for Person being a relative to Representer , it is consequent to plurality of representers , that there be a plurality of persons , though of one and the same substance .

Stud.

You surprize me here with such an explication of the Trinity , as has not been invented by any Heretick of the unluckiest wit , for these sixteen hundred years . And now I am guided after the manner of the multitude , whose curiosity leads them to see the deformed births and mishapen effects of miscarrying nature , rather than to contemplate the Master-pieces of the Creation : it is not so much the goodness , as the prodigiousness of this novel doctrine , which enticeth me to consider it . And in truth , this conception of a Trinity seems to me more a Monster , than the head of Cerberus , ( that is , death ) it self ; which head would have been call'd four-fold , if the fourth part of the world ( America ) had been then discover'd : but this conception , as will by and by appear , may multiply it self an hundred fold , and be rather a Century , than a Trinity . There is also in it this inconvenience , that before the dayes of Moses , you must affirm one only natural person to have been in the divine nature .

Mr. Hobbes .

There was but one from whence we may a a Lev. c. 42. p. 26● . gather the reason , why those names , Father , Son , and Holy Spirit , in the signification of the Godhead , are never used in the Old Testament : for they are Persons , that is , they have their names from representing , which could not be , till divers men had represented Gods Person , in ruling , or in directing under him . Our Saviour b b Lev. ● . 41 p. 266. both in teaching and reigning , representeth ( as Moses did ) the person of God , which God , from that time forward , but not before , is called the Father .

Stud.

Where is now your will to pay a reverence to the Law , by whose Authority you are taught , in the first Article of the Church of England , that there be three persons , of one substance , power , and eternity . But you will say , that your Leviathan was published in those dayes c c Ann● 1650. when the King by your doctrine , was no King ; when the Parliament having the supreme strength , had for that very reason , ( the reason which you give , and I may consider in its assigned place ) the sovereign Right , by which they preferred their own Ordinances , and the Constitutions of the Assembly , to the Canons and Articles of the Convocation . And indeed you have told us in that Book , d d Lev. p. 238. & H. Cons. p. ●● . that you submitted in all Questions ▪ whereof the determination dependeth on the Scriptures , to the interpretation of the Bible , authorized by the Commonwealth , whose Subject you were : that is to say , to the Annotations of the Assembly of Divines ; wherein , no doubt , you might have read the Doctrine of an eternal Trinity asserted , seeing in their shortest Catechism , 't is not omitted . But Law and Scripture ( like the servants of an hard and selfish Master ) are used by you , whilest they have strength to serve your purpose ; but when you cannot work your design by them , they are cast off with utter neglect .

But to proceed ; you your self , together with the Law , have affirmed Jesus to be God-man ; e e Lev. p. ●61 . c. 45. O● S●viou● was a m●n , whom w● also believe to be G●d imm●r●al . and Arrius granted to him a duration before the world ; and Eusebius , who had some favour for the Arrian Doctrine , supposeth him often to have appeared before , and under the times of the Law . And a very late Writer , who has not fear'd , in his Rhapsodie of Ecclesiastick Stories , f f Sandius in Enuel . H●st Ecc. l. 10. p. 229. to deny the Eternal God-head of Christ , hath yet maintained it to he very dangerous , to deny his Pre-existence . There were then ( and it follows from the sense of your own confession ) at least two natural persons , of the Father and of Christ , before this world was founded .

Further , if every one , representing the Person of God , in ruling or directing under him , addeth a person to the God-head then may it be thence concluded , ( as Enjedinus speaks g g G. Enj●d . cont. Trin. p. 2. in relation to Pope Alexander , who would infer three persons from the three Attributes of Fecit , dixit , benedixit , at the beginning of Genesis ) that there are not only three , but six hundred . For all Civil Powers are Representatives of the King of the Universe ; and you your self affirm , that any Civil Sovereign is Lieu-tenant of God , a a Lev. c. 1● p. 89. and representeth his person . To speak with propriety , Moses was rather a Mediator betwixt God and the People , who were under a Theocracy , and not a Sovereign on earth . And Saul , who was appointed them in the place of God , whom , in their unreasonable wishes , ( out of an apish imitation of the Heathen Models ) they had deposed , seems the first Person representing God among the Iews . It is also to be noted , that the Apostles were Representers , not strictly of Gods Person ▪ but of Christ God-man , from whom they received commission , in his name , to teach and baptize , after all power was given to him . Wherefore the Bishop of Rome has presumed to call himself , rather falsly than improperly , the servant of the servants of God , and Vicar of Christ . But if you are not willing to multiply Persons in the Godhead , by the number of Vicegerents , but chuse to understand this three-fold representation of a three-fold state of People , under Moses , Christ , and the Apostles , ( which yet is an evasion , not at all suggested by you ) even by this artifice , you will not find a back door open , out of which you may escape . For besides that the Apostolical times are but the continuation of the state begun by Christ , and that the Reign of Christ at his second coming , will be a state perfectly new , we must remember , that there were two states before the dayes of Moses ; the one to be computed from Adam , who in most eminent manner represented God , being appointed by him , Universal Monarch of the Earth : the other , from the Revelation made to Abraham who may be said the first person , with whom God made a formal Covenant , Sealed by the Rite of Circumcision , and by Promises guarded from violation .

Again , whereas you have affirmed that the names of Father and Son , in the signification of the God-head , are never used in the Old-Testament , therein you consulted not your Concordance . For seeing Christ is called the Son , in the second Psalm , the cor-relative Father is as directly pointed out , as if the very name had in Capital Letters been written down . Neither do I here create by my Fancy ( as is the manner of such , who deal in Allegories of Scripture ) a mystical sense ; because the Author of the Epistle to the Hebrews b b Hebr. 1●5 ha's expounded the words of our blessed Lord , and not of David . Saint Matthew likewise ha's made the same interpretation : if Iustin Martyr was not deceived , either by his memory , or by oral Tradition , or a spurious Copy ; for in stead of those words from Heaven , c c M●tth. 3 15 at the baptism of Jesus , This is my Beloved Son , in whom I am well pleased ; he ha's in two places , d d ●ust . Matt. Dial. cum Tryph. p. 316. & p. 331. affirmed the voice to have been this , Thou art my Son , this day have I begotten thee .

Mr Hobbes .

Let us not labor any longer in e e Lev c. 32 p. 195. a particular sifting of such mysteries as are not comprehensible , nor fall under any rule of natural Science For it is with the mysteries of our Religion , as with wholesome Pills for the sick , which swallowed whole , have the virtue to cure ; but chewed , are for the most part cast up again without effect .

Stud.

The danger , in my opinion , ariseth not from the mastication of the Physic , but from the indisposed Stomach and Palate of the Patient , to whose health Religion conduceth more , when it is relished by an uninfected Judgment , in the particular accounts of it ; than when it is taken in the lump by an implicit faith which is a way agreeable , not to grown men , but to children in understanding , whom we cannot satisfie , and must not distast . But because you seem not willing to intrude further into this mystery of the God-head , considered in its self and persons , ( which yet , as you would make it , is no more a mystery , than if his Majesty should be called one Sovereign with three persons , being represented by three successive Lord Lieutenants of Ireland ; ) let us descend to the consideration of the Godhead in its outward works ; in which perhaps we may have surer footing ; seeing Phylosophers , unassisted by Revelation have discoursed much upon

Our third Head , the Creation of the World . Mr. Hobbes .

The questions about the magnitude of the World e e De Corp. c. 26. p. 306 , 307. Sect. 1. ( whether it be finite or infinite ) or concerning its duration , ( whether it had a beginning , or be eternal , ) are not to be determined by Phylosophers . Whatsoever we know , that are men , we learn it from our phantasms ; and of infinite ( whether magnitude or time ) there is no phantasm at all ; so that it is impossible either for a man or any other creature , to have any conception of infinite .

Stud.

You prove not here , that a man can have no conception , but only that he can have no image of an infinite Cause : whereas it ha's been already shewn , & may hereafter be ev●●ced from the immateriality of Mans Soul , that all conception● and Ideas , are not phantasms , or arise not from them . But whilst you plead the difficulty of conceiving an eternal being in reference to the Creation , you elsewhere f f De Corp. c. 8. p. 84 Sect. ●0 . admit of an Idea , difficult enough ▪ for you can feign in your mind that a point may swell to a great figure , such as that of Man ( and this you say g g O●j . 10. p. ●01 . is the only Ide● which we have at the naming of Creator ) and that such a figure may again contract it self into the narrowness of a point , hereby you admit of a natural phantasm of Creation out of nothing , as also of re-annihilation ; for all the supposed points besides that first , which is just commensurate to so much space , can neither arise out of that one , nor shrink into it , and wherea● you add that you cannot comprehend in your mind , how this may po●●ibly be done in nature , h h De Corp. p. 84. ib. of which before you pranted a phantasm which ariseth from real impulse , if all be Body , it is as much , as if you had said , you can , and you cannot comprehend it . And I cannot but here admire it in a man who pretends to a consistency with himself , that you should allow the above said phantasm ▪ and yet reprehend it as principle void of sense , i i Enis . Ded. before six Less . p. 3. and which a man at the first hearing , whether Geometrician or not Geometriciam must abhorr ; ( the which notwithstanding the learned Lord Bacon did embrace ) that the same Body without adding to it , or taking from it , is sometimes greater and sometimes lesse . But to return to the conception of an eternal Cause , though it be not possible to have an Image of God , yet it is easie by the help of Reason , from the Images of things we see , to climb by degrees above the visible World , to the eternal Creator of it . Curiosity or love of the knowledge of Causes , doe's draw a man ( as you will grant ) k k Lev. c. 11. p. 51. from consideration of the effect to seek the Cause ; and again the cause of that Cause , till of necessity he must come to this thought at last , that there is some cause , whereof there is no former cause , but is Eternal , and is called God .

Mr. Hobbes .

Though l l De Corp. c 26. p. 307 a man may from some effect proceed to the immediate cause thereof , and from that to a more remote Cause , and so ascend continually by right ratiocination from cause to Cause ; yet he will not be able to proceed eternally ; but wearied will at last give over , without knowing , whether it were possible for him to proceed to an end , or not .

Stud.

We are not , as you imagine , wearied in this assent of our Reason , upon the several roundles of second causes to that which is eternal . for we passe not through every single cause and effect ; but like those who search their pedigree no further , than their great great Grand-Father , yet say , they at first sprung from Adam ; we view some more immediate causes and effects , and consider that there is the like reason of dependency , in the rest and thence as it were , leap forward unto the top of this Iacob's Ladder , and arrive a● the acknowledgment of an eternal , immovable Mover .

Mr. Hobbes .

Though from this , that nothing can move it self , m m De Corp. c. 26 p. 307 it may rightly be inferred that there was some first eternal Movent ; yet 〈◊〉 can never be inferred ( though some use to make such inference ) that that Movent was eternally immoveable , but rather eternally moved : for as it is true that nothing is moved by it self , so is a● true also , that nothing is moved , but by that which is already moved .

Stud.

Here you proceed not with such consistence and scrupulous ratiocination as becometh a Phylosopher : for if nothing be moved by it self , then to say an eternal Mover is moved , is to say , that that Eternal is not Eternal : for there is something presupposed to give it motion , and another thing foregoing and causing that motion , and so on , in infinitum . Yet you acknowledge in your Book n n Hum. Nat. p. 13. Lev. c. 12. ●3 . a first Power of all Powers : but at the present , your reasoning is connected with your beloved notion o● a corporeal Universe . For Matter can never move , but by that which is moved , and so forward , not to an eternal Cause , but in an endless Circle , which yet in some part must have had a beginning , for here the question will return ; how came the sluggish Matter , which cannot help it self , to have motion at first imparted to it ? if there were not an eternal incorporeal self-moving mind ; wherefore you are , again , involved in the condemnation of the Epicureans , of whom Cicero , in his first De Finibus o o Cum i● rerum naturâ duo sint quaerenda , unum , quae materia sit ex quâ quaeque res efficiatur ; alterum , quoe vis sit , quae quidque efficiat ; de materi● disseruerunt Epicurei ; vim & causa● efficiendi reliquerunt ha's left this pertinent observation . There being two things to be inquired after in the nature of things , the one , what the Matter is out of which every thing is made ; the other , what is the force or motion which doth every thing : the Epicureans have reasoned concerning Matter , but the efficient Power is a part of Phylosophy which they have left untilled . So little of Reason in this Article of the Creation , is on the side of some men , who would monopolize that honorable name .

Mr. Hobbes .

Natural Reason is not so much concerned in this question , because p p De Corp. p. 307. so much cannot be known , as may be sought , the question about the beginning of the World is to be determined by those that are lawfully authorized to order the worship of God , for as Almighty God when he had brought his People into Iudaea , allowed the Priests the First-Fruits reserved to himself ; so when he had delivered up the World to the disputations of men , it was his pleasure that all opinions concerning the nature of infinite and eternal , known only to himself , should ( as the First-Fruits of wisdom ) be judged by those , whose ministry they meant to use in the ordering of Religion . I cannot therefore commend those that boast they have demonstrated by reasons drawn from natural things , that the World had a beginning .

Stud.

Where find you the Supreme Civil Magistrate ( for him you mean ) to be constituted a Judge of true and false ? then would the Truth be as inconstant , as the Opinions of those Powers ; who being thronged with employments , have of all men , the least room left for speculation .

The Great Turk , who ha's made the Alcaron to be Law , ha's there affirmed , that two verses in Surata Vaccae , q q ●p Hotting Bib●i-O●ient . p. 10● , 109. were made by God Almighty , two thousand years before the World was framed and written by his Finger ; and all Christian Princes , who determine the Bible to be the Word of God , have thereby determin'd , that such Stories are absurd Fables . If you had so stated the Power of Princes , as to have ascribed a right to them , not ( as you now have done ) of determining questions ( that is , of resolving them into true negations or affirmations ) but of restraining the tongues or pens of men , from venting what they esteem inconvenient for Society ; I know few men of my Order , who would with any vehemence have become your opposers , provided alwaies that this Power be meant of such Opinions , as subvert not natural or Christian Religion : for it is as necessary at all times to professe such Articles , as it is to make profession that we are not Atheists ; the necessity of which may hereafter be proved .

Mr. Hobbes .

I have so done , as you require , I should ; for in my Letter to Dr. Wallis , r r H. Consid. p. 36. since his Majesties return , I have upon second thoughts restrained the decision of Authority to the publication and not the inward belief of Doctrin● . I say , there that these opinions about the Creation , are to be judged by those to whom God ha's committed the ordering of Religion ; that is , to the Supreme Governors of the Church ; that is , in England to the King . By his Authority , I say , it ought to be decided , ( not what men shall think , but ) what they shall say in those questions .

Stud.

In this question of the Creation , you seem too bountiful to Authority ; seeing by your own concession , the affirmative is a point so very fundamental , that all natural Religion , if that be taken away , will fall to the ground ; for in the Epistle before mentioned , s s H. Cons. p. 34. you doubt not to affirm , that , as for arguments from natural reason , no man ha's hitherto brought any one , except the Creation , to prove a Deity , that had not made it more doubtful to many men , than it was before . Wherefore it follows that whilst you attribute unto the Civil Magistrate a Right of binding men , if he shall so please , to profess this falshood , that the World had no beginning ; you also ascribe unto the same Magistrate , a Right of banishing the Profession of a Deity out of his Dominions .

Mr. Hobbes .

Why do you t t H. Cons. p. 36. stile the King by the name of Magistrate ? Do you find Magigistrate to signifie any where the person that hath the Sovereign Power , and not every where the Sovereigns Officers ?

Stud.

Although you are here guilty of an excursion , yet I am content to follow you , not being ignorant how soon you are out of breath in pursuing any Game started in Philology ; And first , I will grant it to you , that if we have regard to the nicest application of the Word , at some times amongst the Romans , it will not so elegantly agree to the Supreme Power . For in the fourth Book of Cicero ( or rather Cornificius ) ad Herennium , u u P. 2 9. Sect. 35. Senatus of ●icium est , consilio Civitatem juvare , Magistratus officium est , operâ & diligentiâ consequi voluntatem Senatus . the Magistrate is said to be imployed in the execution of such Decrees , as were made Law by the Senate : And I have read in Varro , x x De Linguâ Lat. l. 4. p. 15. Sect. 14. that the Officers inferior to the Magister Populi or Dictator , and Magister Equitum , were by way of diminution call'd Magistratus ; as from Albus , Albatus : and yet I am assured that Cicero sometimes us'd the Word Magistrate in such a sense as derogates not at all from the super-eminence of things ; for in his third Book De Legibus y y Cic. l. 3. de Leg. p. 1●04 . we have this sentence ; The Magistrate is a speaking Law , and the Law is a mute Magistrate , and a while after , citing the words of the old Roman Law , he stileth the Consuls , Magistrates , and the Office , Magistracy : and yet he sheweth , that the Consuls at first had Regal and Supreme Power .

But seeing Custome since the dayes of Cicero , ha's otherwise applyed divers words ; and seeing that from a diverse administration of affairs , and from new inventions , and other causes , there have arisen new words also ; those persons who will precisely speak , with Cicero and the old Romans ( every of whose words and phrases , cannot be thought extant in the fragments now in our hands ; ) they rather betray their own affectation , than declare themselves Masters of Propriety of Language ; whilst Castalio useth Iova , Tinctio , Genius , Sancte colatur ; in stead of Iehovah , Baptismus , Angelus , Sanctificetur ( which word by the favor of so great a Critic , is not avoided by z z Cic ▪ Cicero himself ) he seems to study rather niceness , than true cleanness of Latine . The word Magistrate is not forced , when it is used in expressing the Supreme Power ; for Magisterare in Festus a a De Verb fig. p. 308. is glossed by Regerè . Your own Champion Ter●ullian ( who well knew how to speak , with the Laws ) interprets b b Tert. adv. Hermog. p. 240. Sect. 19. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 by Magistratus : and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 denoteth sometimes so great a Power , that it is spoken of the very Prince c c Ephes. 2.2 . see Rev. 1.5 . of the Powers of the Air , that learned Person had in the above said place an Eye to the Government of the Athenians , which after the succession of Kings failed at the death of Codrus , was administred by Thirteen Magistrates called 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , of which the first was Medon . Cavil not now at the number of these Rulers ; for how many soever the persons are in such a Senate , the Supreme Authority d d Lev. p. 89 Man ▪ or Assembly of m●n , having the Sovereignty . is but one .

If you require modern Authority , the Testimony of Hugo Grotius is beyond just exception , for he acknowledgeth , that Summus Magistratus e e Hugo Grot. de Imp. sum Pot. circae sacra . p. 2. c. 1. is used commonly in denoting the Sovereign Power ; although he approves not of it for exact Roman , and nice Latinity . Lastly , Magistrate is a word , in the sense in which I use it , used also in the Law of King and Church , with which we Englishmen are to speak , rather than with the Twelve Tables , or the Prince of Orators . Recall then to your mind the thirty seventh Article of the Faith pro●essed in England ; that Article , though it consisteth in declaring the Power of the King , in affairs both Civil and Ecclesiastical , yet bears the Tide , Of the Civil Magistrate .

But I have busied my self too long in a nicety ●f words , which improve the memory , but give not much advantage to the nobler faculty of reason . It is time then , that we look back upon our main Subject , the Creation of the World . If you have any further matter to deliver , in relation to that Subject , I am ready to attend to you and it .

Mr. Hobbes .

Something I have to say , but there is little coherence of it , with our former discourse . I add however , ( seeing you seem to have required something more ) that upon supposition of the Being of a God , it follows not that he created the World . f f V. de Obj. 5. p. 97 in conclus . Although it were g g Obj. 10. p 101. De Corp. c. 26. p. 307. Whether we suppose the World to be finite , or infinite , no absurdity w●ll follow . demonstrated , that a Being infinite , independent , omnipotent , did exist ; yet could it not rightly be thence inferred , that a Creator do's exist also . Unless a ma● should think , that because there is a Being , which we believe to have created all things , therefore the World was created by Him .

Stud.

Seeing dependent nature is so far removed from a power of making , that it cannot so much as move it self , but will , if once moved , be without impediment in perpetual motion ; and arre● alwayes , if once at rest , without fresh impulse fro● some neighboring body ; we must of necessity have recourse to a Creator : and because we suppose already in the Idea of God , such infinit●●ower , as excludes the like power from all things else ; it cannot but follow , that there being a World He was the Maker of it . Seeing by the Hypothesis , the impotent World exists , and an infinite power also ; who else can be imagined this Omnipotent Architect ?

This absurd Assertion puts me in mind of Heraclitus , who having denied that any of the Gods were Creators , subjoyned also , that neither had any man created the world ; fearing ( sayes Plutarch , in a dry jest ) lest after he had overthrown the power of the Deities , we might suspect some mortal man had been the Author of such a Master-piece . The like consequence is natural from the attribute of divine wisdome , which being infinite , can appertain but to one Essence . If then the world be m●de in number , and weight , and measure , it is demonstrable from thence , both that there is h h Mirab. Pecci . p. 8. Laudamusque tu●s , Aeterne G●ometer , A●tes . an eternal Geometer , as also that if such a one existeth , the world , which could not so frame it self , was his Artifice And doubtless , the disposition of the parts of the greater world , and even the oeconomy of the parts of the lesser , that of man , implying most wise designs , do necessarily inferr ( Gassendus himself i i Gass. in l 10 Diog. Laert. p. 696. confessing it ) the Being of a Creator . We need not search further , than to some one particular Note in the situation of the heart , which is a kind of Box containing many wonders one within another . It is to be observed , k k D. Lower de Motu cordis . p. 2 , 3. that in man , and in almost all such Animals as live of flesh , that the situation of the heart is not in the center , but in the superior part of the Body , that it may the more readily convey to the head a due portion of bloud . For seeing that the trajection and distribution of the bloud , dependeth wholly upon the Systole of the heart , and that the liquor cast forth , does not so easily ascend , as it flows into vessels paralel or inferior ; if the seat of the heart were more removed from the head , the head would be rendred impotent for want of bloud , unless the heart were framed with a far greater strength , whereby it might , with more potent violence , force up its liquor . But in such Animals , whose neck is extended by nature , as it were , on purpose to meet their provisions , the heart is placed without any prejudice , in the center ; because the head being frequently pendulous , the bloud runs to it in a wide and daily supplyed Channel . Go now ( that I may bespeak you in the way of Gassendus ) l l Gass. ubi sup●à . I nunc , & dic ●asu id sactum , quod non potuit sapientius sieri . and applaud your wit , in saying that that was done by chance , which could not have been more wisely contrived .

Mr. Hobbes .

In this Argument , I my self , in my Book de Homine , have not denied the frame of nature to argue design ; and I have there spoken to this purpose .

Stud.

Please to spare the Translation of the place , for there is ( as I remember ) a conceit in the words , which will be lost in English .

Mr. Hobbes .

Mock on ; I am not ashamed of the words ; and they are these : a a De Ho● . c. 1 p 4. Ad sensus procedo : satis habens , si hujusmodi res attigero tantùm , planiùs autem tract andas aliis reliquero ; qui si machinas omnes tum Generationis tum Nutritionis satis perspexerint , nec tamen eas à Mente aliqui conditas ordinatasque ad sua quasque officia viderine , ipsi profecto sine Mente esse censendi sunt .

Stud.

Seeing thus much is acknowledged from you , in reference to the Body ; how great may that conviction be ( of the existence of a Creator ) which ariseth from the consideration of Souls and Angels ; whilest Thought is much more admirable than motion , and incorporeal spirit , than matter .

Mr. Hobbes .

Incorporeal Substance is b b Answ. to Pref. to Gondibert p. 87. a note which you shake too too often ; and here , with much absurdity : For , to say , c c Lev. c. 34 p. 214. an Angel or Spirit is an incorporeal substance , is to say , in effect , there is no Angel or Spirit at all . The Universe d d Lev c. 34 p. 207. being the aggregate of all bodies , there is no real part thereof that is not also body . The substance of invisible Agents e e Lev. c. 12 p. 53. is by some conceived , to be the same with that which appeareth in a dream , or in a looking-glass , to them that are awake . But the opinion , that such Spirits were incorporeal , could never enter into the mind of any man by nature : However , that name will serve our purpose , for the Introduction of the

Fourth Head of our Discourse , The Nature of Angels . Stud.

To requite your Quibble ; that Note of Incorporeal Angel ought not to have offended your purged ●ars , seeing the old Philosophers thence derived the harmony of the celestial Orbs. But to be in good earnest ; you seem , by denying Intelligencies or Incorporeal Angels , not only to contend with those despised Philosophers , but to encounter almost the whole world .

Mr. Hobbes .

It is true , f f Hum. na● . c. 11. p. 13●●39 . that the Heathens , and all Nations of the World , have acknowledged that there be Spirits , which for the most part they hold to be Incorporeal ; whereby it might be thought , that a man by natural reason may arrive , without the Scriptures , to the knowledge of this , that Spirits are ; but the erroneous collection thereof by the Heathens may proceed from the ignorance of the Causes of Ghosts and Phantasms , and such other apparitions : that is to say , g g Hum. nat. p. 138. Sect. 5. from the ignorance of what those things are , which are called Spectra , Images that appe●r in the dark to children , and such as have strong fears , and other strange imaginations .

By h h Lev. c 34 p. 211 , 212 the name of Angel , is signified generally a Messenger ; and most often , a Messenger of God ; and by a Messenger of God , is signified any thing that makes known his extraordinary presence ; that is to say , the extraordinary manifestation of his Power , especially by a Dream , or Vision .

That Angels are Spirits , is often repeated in Scripture ; but by the name of Spirit , is signified both in Scripture , and vulgarly , both amongst Iews and Gentiles , sometimes thin bodies , as the Air , the Wind , the Spirits vital , and animal , of living Creatures ; and sometimes the Images that rise in the fancy in Dreams and Visions , which are not real substances , nor last any longer , than the dream or vision they appear in ; which Apparitions , though no real substances , but accidents of the brain ; yet when God raiseth them supernaturally , to signifie his will , they are not unproperly termed Gods Messengers , that is to say , his Angels .

And as the Gentiles did vulgarly conceive the imagery of the brain , for things really subsistent without them , and not dependent on the fancy , and out of them framed their opinions of Daemons , good and evil ; which because they seemed to subsist really , they called substances ; and because they could not feel them with their hands , incorporeal . So also the Iews upon the same ground , without any thing in the Old Testament that constrain'd them thereunto , had generally an opinion ( except the Sect of the Sadducees ) that those Apparitions ( which it pleased God sometimes to produce in the fancy of men , for his own service , and therefore called them his Angels ) were substances not dependent on the fancy , but permanent Creatures of God ; whereof those which they thought were good to them , they esteemed the Angels of God , and those they thought would hurt them , they called evil Angels , or evil Spirits ; such as was the Spirit of Python , and the Spirits of mad men , of Lunaticks and Epilepticks : for they esteemed such as were troubled with such diseases , Daemoniacks .

But if we consider the places of the Old Testament , where Angels are mentioned , we shall find , that in most of them , there can nothing else be understood by the word , Angel , but some Image , raised ( supernaturally ) in the fancy , to signifie the presence of God , in the execution of some supernatural work ; and therefore in the rest , where their nature is not exprest , it may be understood in the same manner . Concerning Spirits , a a Hum. nat. p. 136. which some call incorporeal , and some corporeal , it is not possible , by natural means only , to come to knowledge of so much , as that there are such things .

Stud.

Touching the incorporeal nature of Angels , I will evince the necessity of it , by proving ( when we come to examine the nature of mans Soul ) that matter is not capable of Cogitation . At present , I will consider your two Assertion now delivered ; that the existence of Angels , as permanent substances , is not to be collected from natural Reason ; and that the Writings of the Old Testament speak not in favour of such Doctrine .

Concerning the first , it is wont to be said , that strange presages of mind , and warnings in dreams ; wonderfull effects in men snatch'd away , and mountains and buildings removed and demolished , by power invisible ; real apparitions to many men at once ; predictions of Oracles ; confessions and exploits of Wizards , and Witches , do by natural argumentation , prove the existence of Angels : as also that these are apt instruments , to beget terrour in the minds of wicked men , in order to their speedy reformation .

Mr. Hobbes .

I know , that from fear b b Lev. c. 6. p. 26. of Power invisible , feigned by the mind , or imagined from Tales publickly allowed , ariseth Religion ; not allowed , Superstition .

Stud.

If these be meer Tales , the publick allowance of them cannot make them to become Religion . For God , being infinitely powerfull and wise , refuseth to be served by the effects of folly and ignorance ; neither standeth he in need of pious frauds and stratagems , wherewith to bring to pass his holy designs ; for they are arguments of impotency in those who use them , and the truths of Religion appear most genuine , when there is due trial made of them , by exposing them to the light . But if these things which I have mention'd , be Tales and Fables , ( all thoughts of which do often shake the higher Powers , who are said to feign them ) then the faith , almost of mankind , is call'd in question ; and the most knowing persons are accused of eredulity or imposture . These Stories have not been meerly believed by children , and short sighted people , but by Socrates , Plotinus , Synesius , Dion , Iosephus , Pomponatius , Cardan , and ( his Transcriber ) Caesar Vanine , and divers others , not ideots in Philosophy , nor yet some of them zealots in Religion . Cardan , a man who would speak liberally of himself , not dissembling his very follies and vices , has , in his Life written by his own hand , a a Card. d● vitâ prop. c. 47 p. 262. spent an whole Chapter , in discoursing about his good Genius ; and therein he insisteth upon such evidences , as made it manifest to him that his Imagination did not impose upon him . He also foretold b b Thuan ▪ ad Ann. 1576. p. 136. the year , and day of his death ; which , because some will not allow to have been done by skill , they have said , that by starving his body , he effected it , becoming a self-destroyer , to gain the reputation of a Prophet . If there may exist such Inhabitants of the air , ( and there is nothing in nature , which doth hinder such Beings , more than it doth the existence of understanding creatures upon earth ; and there is reason enough to perswade us that all Regions of the Universe are some way peopled ) why should it then seem incredible , that they sometimes bestow a Visit upon mortal men . Were all Body and Matter , the air , as well as earth might be folded into shapes , which think , and direct their motions at pleasure . Although some Stories are hatch●d in Chimney-corners , or in the disturbed imaginations of fearfull people , and are told by such as love to hear themselves talk , and to be believed , and are of easie confutation ; it followeth not thence , ( though it be the common reason ) that all are fables . Then , as is usually said , all Histories would be condemned , because there is such a vast crowd of Romances , which multiply with the number of idle and sensual persons ; and your Thucydides would fall into the dis-repute of Amadis de Gaule . I could tell of one , who wearing good Cloathes , and denying the existence of real Wizards and Witches before vulgar Judges , and by staying in his Chamber from Church , procured , amongst the people , the esteem due to a man of a shrewd head-piece , and one that saw behind the Curtain ; though I am well confirmed , that his ignorance was the Mother , and his laziness the Nurse of his in-devotion .

Mr. Hobbes .

Necromancy , Witch-craft , charming , and conjuring , ( the Liturgy a a Lev. p. 54. of Witches ) is but b b L●v. c. 12. p. 56. juggling , and confederate knavery . The Priests c c Ibid more at la●ge . at Delphi , Delos , Ammon , were Impostors ; the Leaves of the Sybils , ( the Fragments of which seem to be the invention of later times ) and the Prophesies of Nostradamus , are from the same Forge .

Stud.

For the Sybils , the learned D. Blondel has not ineffectually cast away his studies , in relation to my self . Concerning Oracles , although I underst●nd by divers Authors , and particularly by your Thucydides , d d See Thucyd . p. 68 , 77 , 82 , 113 , &c. that they gave some Answers dubious , and others false , and divers true , but such as a prudent man might have return'd , out of deep insight into civil affairs ; yet , without a suspicion of antient Historians , too uncharitable , I cannot prevail upon my mind to think , that the Priests had no assistance from Daemons . I know not what other judgement to make of the Answer , which the Pythia e e H●rod . Clio. p. 39. gave to Craesus ; an instance , to which you cannot be a stranger . He enquir'd at Delphos , touching the proper means for the loosning the tongue of that beloved Son of his , who was apt for every thing , besides speech . The Pythia returned answer , that there was no great reason for his solicitousness about the dumbness of the Child , seeing when he should first speak , the hour would be unhappy to his Father . The event was agreeable to the prediction , his Son first crying out , when Sardis being taken , Craesus was ready to fall by the inglorious hand of a common Persian . I could , if you requir'd it , produce strange Instances , in times not so remote from our own ; a good while after the coming of our Lord ; notwithstanding that you have asserted , f f Lev. c. 12. p. 59. that in the planting of the Christian Religion , the Oracles ceased in all parts of the Roman Empire . Marcellinus would have un-deceiv●d you ; and even Iulian the Apostate , who in his works , is frequent in the mention of present Oracles ; and particularly , in an Epistle to Maximus the Cynic , g g Jul. Ap●st . op. p. 181. Epist. 38. ( which being private , and to a Philosopher doth argue , that he wrote as he believ'd ) He there tells Maximus , ( who was brought into some danger under Constantius ) that he had consulted the Gods concerning his estate , being far distant from him , and solicitous for his welfare ; and that he could not do it , in person , but by others , not be able to hear immediately , as he suspected , ill tidings of his Friend : as likewise , that the Oracle had return'd answer , that the Philosopher was in some trouble , but not pressed with such extremity , as giveth unnatural counsell .

Touching Michel Nostradamus , Physician in Ordinary to Henry the Second of France , I have read his Centuries , with very little edification . Yet , when I remember , that in sixty six , I beheld London in the Flames , I know not how to despise that Stanza of his , a a Cent. 2. p. 20 Quart. 51. Le sang du juste á Londres fera faute , Bruslez par foudres de vingt trois les ●tx , &c. which , if it has not satisfied our reason , I 'm sure it has astonished the imaginations of many . But whether he spake the words , and we contriv'd the sense , I leave under debate . But be these things as they will ; this I am enough confirmed in , that such , as publickly deny Witch-craft , are sawcy affronters of the Law , and therefore , for their opinion , which rather establisheth irreligion , than subverts the faith , they ought to be chastiz'd from those Chairs of Justice , which they have reproachfully stain'd with the bloud of many innocent and mis-perswaded people .

Mr. Hobbes .

As for Witches , b b Lev. c. 2 ▪ p. 7. I think not that their Witch-craft is any real power ; but yet that they are justly punished for the belief they have , that they can do such mischief , joyned with their purpose to do it , if they can .

Stud.

I have heard it elsewhere said , c c Dram. Poes . p. 4. that our Witches are justly hang'd , because they think themselves so ; and suffer deservedly for believing they did mischief , because they mean it .

But methinks , that Law were to be accused of unreasonable severity , which should take away the life of those , knowingly and deliberately , who before they make confession of their inefficacious malice , are in no sort hurtfull to the Common-wealth , which is not concerned in our thoughts ; and when they make confession , not of any evil practices , but of their delusions of distemper'd fancy , appear to be possessed with madness rather , than a Daemon , and ought rather to be provided for in Bedlam , than executed at Tyburn . But could we grant it to be a piece of ●ustice ; yet would that evasion be too thin to shelter those from the censure of the Law , who ( as I think ) do most insolently revile it , by denying all real confederacy with Daemons . For the Statute of King Iames , d d 1 Ja. c 12. whom you somewhere honour with the attribute of most wise , e e Lev. c. 19 p. 101. condemns to death only such Authors of Enchantment and Witch-craft , as are convicted of real effects : And it is not felony without Clergy , ( though it be imprisonment , with shame of the Pillory ) to attempt to tell of stollen goods , or to destroy or hurt mans body by Conjuration . The Statute also mentioneth the making Covenants with some evil and wicked Spirit , as a practice granted and notorious .

But passing from the Law of our Sovereign , to that of Moses , let us

Secondly , Consider , Whether thereby you are not also condemned , in the Article of the permanent substances of Angels .

It is thought by learned men , that Moses and the Prophets had so conspicuously taught the Being of Angels , a a See Episcop. Iust. Th●ol . l 4. c. 2. p. 347. that the very Sadducees denied not absolutely the existence of such Spirits , but their natural Being and duration , conceiving , by their appearing and disappearing on a sudden , that God had created them , upon account of some extraordinary Embassie , and the service being done , reduced them to their first nothing .

The Old Testament describes Angels by such Offices , of standing before the Throne of God , and ministring perpetually to the Favourites of God , b b See Dan. 7 10. Ps. 34 7. Ps. 68.17 . Ps. 91.11 , 12. comp. with Mat. 4.6 . & Luk 4.10 . as shew , at once , their unfancied existence , and their permanency . It were a voluminous labour , to write each Authority in the old Law ; and it were also a superfluous one , seeing the bare instances of Lot and Abraham are so pregnant with evidence , that no reason can overthrow it , though a boisterous impudence may turn it aside .

Mr. Hobbes .

Why c c Lev. c. 34 p. 212. may not the Angels that appeared to Lot d d Gen. 19. — be understood of Images of men , supernaturally formed in the fancy ? — That e e Lev c. 36 p. 227. to Abraham , was also of the same nature , an Apparition .

Stud.

The Angels sent to Lot were not meer Phantasms , for the Texts seems as much an historical Relation , as any pas●age in the Acts and Monuments of Gods Church ; the very History of the Passion scarce excepted . And in truth you have bidden very fair towards a phantastical Cross , by affirming our Saviour to have been f f Lev. c. 45. p. 354. tempted in a Vision . Were that true , it would be but a faint encouragement , which the Author to the Hebrews g g Heb 2.18 . thought a sufficient motive to animate our hopes in the day of the spiritual battel ; to consider with our selves that our Saviour imagined himself to be tempted , and therefore will succour us that are really tempted . Scultetus h h In delic . Evang. was i i See Deut. 22 ▪ 8. betray'd into this error by his mistake of the Greek word rendred a Pinacle ; having read , it seems , in Iosephus , that the Pinacles of the Temple were so very sharp , as not to sustain a bird without piercing its feet . Whereas 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , signified a Battlement of the Temple , a support easie and sufficient ; on which Saint Iames the Just was placed , and thence by the violence of bloody men , was thrown down headlong . And for your self , you fell into this conceit , by being ignorant , or by not considering k k Lev. ib. — . No Mo●ntain high enough to shew him one whole Hemisphere that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 doth often signifie , not the whole World , but the Land of Palestine , the whole glory of which might , as in a mapp be seen , in the places , at and about Ierusalem . But to return ( if this be a digression from our business in hand ) to the Instance of Lot . It is to be noted that not only Lot , but all his Family , and likewise divers of the impure Sodomites , at the same time , beheld the Angels . There were also such effects , concomitant and remaining ( such as were amongst the rest , Striving and Blindness ) as do manifest that the Angels were real , and substantial Messengers . But if it shall be said , that this whole affair was acted , meerly in the scene of Imagination ; it will thence follow , by a cons●quence bold and impure , as the very sin of Sodom , that God Almighty infus'd into the Sodomites such bewitching Images , as were proper to enkindle in them unnatural Lusts , and then condemn'd them to their darkness for pursuing such Fancies as were his own Off-spring .

The Angels that appear'd to Abraham , out-went the power of Fancy , feasting themselves upon real food , and not being entertain'd as at an Imaginary Banquet of Witches .

Now , for the New Testament , to collect the sev●ral places , were with Samson , to multiply heaps upon heaps . That divers mention'd under the name of Daemoniacks , in the Scripture , were men disturbed by Melancholy , and possess'd with the ●alling-sickness , is not denied by me ; and hath been publickly asserted a a Mr. Mede book 1. s. 37 , 38 , 39. fol. ▪ long since , by a very eminent Divine , but to conclude that all were such , is to do violence to the holy Text , and our own Reason in the interpretation of it ; and thereby to render our selves as mad as the persons we discourse of . It soundeth untowardly to say , that Epilepsies and Phrensies b b s. Mat. 8 28 , to 32. should beg leave of Christ to go into swine ; and being cast out or cured , ( that is annihilated , as such , by the change of figure and motion in the vessels , blood , and humours ) should after this , be able to enter into the herd , and to hurry them into swift destruction .

Yet , of Possessions there may be room for scruple in many cases ; and Galen mentions a Disease , under the horrid name of 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , as I have learnt from Peter Martyr , in his Discourse upon the Mela●choly of Saul . But touching the existence of Angels , there is no place left for the Sceptick , in the Gospel .

The Disciples c c Mat. 1● ▪ 26 ; seeing our blessed Lord , when he walked upon the Sea , supposed him to be an Angel . They would not hereby mean a Phantasm , because he was seen by many of them at the same time , whose differing fancies and motions of brain , cannot be reasonably supposed in this juncture , to have conspir'd . And therefore I cannot commend that interpretation of Episcopius d d Episcop. Inst. Theol. p. 347. , which he made upon a passage in St. Luke e e Luk. 24 ▪ 33 , 34. ; conceiving that Christ , surprizing the Disciples after his Resurrection , was judg'd , at first , by them a meer spectre , and not a spiritual essence ; it being utterly improbable that the same Spectre , or Phantasm should arise , at the same time , in the brains of all the eleven , without some outward object dispensing its influence to them all .

Go now , and say , that the Apostles were not men of so clear an apprehension , in this matter , as your self , being smutted with the dark doctrine - of Daemonologie amongst the Greeks . But what evasion is sufficient , when you read the History of the Deliverance of St. Peter ? Concerning whom the Spirit of God affirmeth expresly a a Act. 12.9 And he went out and followed him , and wist not that it was true which was done by the Angel ; but thought he saw a visiou . that it was done , not in a Vision , but by the real efficacy of an Angel , commissioned by God .

Mr. H●bbes .

Considering b b L●v. c. 34 p. 214. the signification of the word Ang●l , in the Old Testament , and the nature of Dreams and Visions that happen to men by the ordinary way of nature ; I was enclined to this opinion , that Angels were nothing but supernatural Apparitions of the fancy , raised by the special and extraordinary operation of God , thereby to make his presence and commandments known to Mankind , and chiefly to his own People . But the many places of the New Testament , and ou● Saviours own words , and in such Texts , wherein is no suspition of corruption of the Scripture , have extorted from my feeble reason , an acknowledgment , and belief , that there be also Angels substantial , and permanent . But to believe they be in no place , that is to say , no where ; that is to say , nothing ; as they ( though indirectly ) say , that will have them incorporeal ; cannot by Scripture be evinced . I add also ●ev . p. 211 that concerning the Creation of Angels , there is nothing delivered in the Scriptures .

Stud.

The Scriptures affirm of Angels , that they are permanent Substances ; they also make them inferior to God ; and they ascribe to God the creating of all things , besides himself ; and therefore , by apparent consequence , they affirm of Angels , that they were created . If an express testimony be required , the Iews will tell you , that Moses ( of whose secret Cabal they think themselves the chief ) understood those words of his , especially of Angels , when he said of God , that In the Beginning he created the Heavens . But the words of St. Paul have seemed to me , of more easie and particular application . Christ ( said d d Col. 1.15 16. that great Doctor of the Gentiles ) is the Image of the invisible God , the first-born of every creature ; for by him were all things created that are in heaven , and that are in earth , visible and invisible , whether they be Thrones or Dominions , or Principalities or Powers : all things were created by Him , and for Him . These words must be interpreted of Men and Angels , from the importance of the phrase in other places of St. Paul e e Ephes. 1 ▪ 20 , 21. comp. with Hebr. 1.3 , 4 , &c. to the end . , and from the mention of procured reconciliation or recapitulation which appertains not to the other parts of the upper or lower World f f Col. 1.20 .

If any man here replieth , that because our Saviour took not hold of Angels , became not God incarnate to reduce them , and by his blood to soften and loose their Adamantine chains ; it seems , therefore , absurd to apply this Text to those invisible Orders : he may be satish'd by taking notice of the proper signification of 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , in that verse ; and this will be best done , by observing the agreement betwixt this Chapter , and the first to the Ephesians ; of which Epistle this to the Colossians is said , by Crellius a a Crell . com . in Ep. ad Col. p. 528. and some others , to be a Compendious Rehearsal . The seventh verse of the first to the Ephesians , answereth to the fourteenth of the first to the Colossians ; and the tenth of the first , to the sixteenth and twentieth of the other b b Gr●t . in 1. Ephes. 10. Certe ut pleraque Epistolae ad Coloss. cum bâc Epist. congruant , ita & l●cur iste ( Col. 1 . 1● . ) bu●c incem adferre & vicissim ab eo lucem mutuari videtur . . We are then to observe that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , in the Epistle to the Colossians , is the same with 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , in that to the Ephesians . And Ireneus c c Iren. l. 1. c. 1. p. 16. citing that , amongst other Texts in the first to the Colossians , useth this second , and not that first Greek word , Now 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , signified first a summ of Money , and afterwards was applyed to any Collection . And we speak not improperly when we say , A general recapitulates his dispersed Soldiers into a Troop . So that hereby is set forth that Soveraignty over Men and Angels , which was acquired by the Death , Resurrection and Ascension , of the Captain of our Salvation , to whom , as Head and Lord , the whole body of them is referred ; and under whom they shall not contend as of old the Angels of Persia and Graecia are said to have done .

Mr. Hobbes .

For Angels , be they permanent , created , substances , be they what they will ; this I am sure of , that I have no Idea of them . When I think of an Angel , d d Object. 5. p. ●7 . sometimes the Image of Flame , sometimes of a beautiful Cupid with wings , comes into my fancy ; which Image , I am confident , is not the similitude of an Angel ; and therefore is not the Idea of it . But e e Credens . elegantly . believing that they are certain Creatures ministring to God , invisible and immaterial ; we f f Imponimus , elegantly . impose upon the thing believed or supposed the name of Angels ; whilst in the mean time , the Idea under which I imagin an Angel , is compounded of the Ideas of visible things .

Stud.

You here again are blindly fallen into the old mistake of an Idea for an Image . If we suppose an Angel to be an understanding Essence , either not united vitally to matter , or only to the purest Aether , and conceive it employed in such offices as are in Scripture ascribed to it , we have a competent notion of it , and that is an Idea .

But of these invisible Powers above us , methinks we have spoken largely enough , considering their nature , as also the season of the night ; if we pursue our Subject much longer , the morning will break in and affright away the Ghosts we talk of . When Goddess , Thou lifts up thy wakened head Out of the Morning 's Purple bed , Thy Quire of Birds about thee play ; And all the joyful World salutes the rising Day . The Ghosts , and monster-spirits , that did presume A Bodie 's Priviledg to assume , Vanish again invisibly , And Bodies gain ag●n their visibility .

So said the best of English Poets , in his Hymn . to Light a a Mr. Cowl●y , p. 36 , 37. .

Mr. Hobbes .

A Poet may talk of Ghosts ; but I 'm sorry you think that we have been seriously discoursing about them ; for then , it seems , we have talk'd about nothing . It is not well that we render spirits , by the word Ghosts b b Lev. c. 34 p. 210. which signifieth nothing , neither in heaven , nor earth , but the imaginary inhabitants of mans brain .

Stud.

Gast , or Geast , whence Ghost is a good old English word , and signifieth the same with spirit ; and I could produce Verstegan c c Versteg . Ant. & Prop. of the Anc. English Tongue , p. 220. to avouch it . The word is good , and the Poetry excellent ; and since I am fallen upon it , I think it will not be amiss , if we unbend a little , and refresh and smooth our spirits with some Poetick numbers , and dismiss our severer Reasonings 'till the morrow . And now , it comes into my mind , that I have about me , your Verses o● the P●ak , which are most agreeable to the place and circumstances , in which we have been ; and in r●peating which , I might be satisfi'd concerning some expressions , and particularly that of — ( ninos sibi concolor Author Fallat ) .

Mr. H●bbes .

For d d Mr. H. S●gmai . p. 14. my Verses of the Peak , they are as ill in my opinion , as I believe they are in any mans ; and made long since — I will by no means hear them .

Stud.

Then let us get on the other side of our Curtains , without any Epilogue at all ; for I begin to be as heavy as if the Mines of this Shire had a powerful influence upon me . I would have been glad to have diverted the humour a little with something pleasant , that we might have concluded , as the Italians advise , Con la bocca dolce . But I will force none of my humour upon you . Sir , I return you thanks for your Conversation ; and I wish you , most heartily , a good night .

Mr. Hobbes .

Sir , a a Concl●s . of Mr. H. of lib. & necess. p. 80 praying God to prosper you , I take leave of you , and am your humble Servant .

The End of the First Dialogue .

The Second Dialogue .

Art. 5. Concerning the Soul of Man . Stud.

A Good morrow to you , Mr. Hobbes , I hope you slept well , since I parted from you , notwithstanding the heat of our Disputation .

Mr. Hobbes .

Very well ; as quietly as if I had been rocked by one of those good Genii , which we spake of , a little before we took our leaves .

Stud.

I thank God , I slept so soundly , that the passed time is esteemed by me ●ong , upon no other account , than that it hath kept me some hours , from debating such further matters in Philosophy and Religion , as we at first propounded .

Mr. Hobbes .

Let us then delay no longer , but enter immediately upon our second Conference .

Stud.

I am ready to wait upon you , and setting aside the time of sleep as nothing , to connect this part of our life with that , wherein we were awake , conferring about Angels ; and because we said as much as we intended upon that Subject , let us descend to the

Fifth Article , which concerns those Beings next in order , the Souls of Men ; of them I would gladly hear your thoughts , seeing it is a matter which relates , so closely to the greatest interest of man .

Mr. Hobbes .

By the Soul , I mean b b Leviat : cap. 46. p. 373. Soul or Life . the Life of Man ; and Life it self is but motion , c c Lev. p. 29 so that the Soul or Life d d Lev. p. 1. is but a motion of Limbs , the beginning whereof is in some principal part within .

Stud.

By this means you will make of Man an excellent piece of Clock-work ; which though you have been hammering out , more than thirty years , may methinks , ( like the artificial man of Albertus Magnus ) be broken in sunder in a moment . I know that you may set the wheels of your machin a going ; but what is there within , that shall understand when it goes well or ill , or feel and number the repeated strokes ? You mean surely , by your description the mechanism of the Body set on work , and not the Soul perceiving its operations .

Mr. Hobbes .

Perception or Imagination a a Obj. 4. p. 96. depends ( as I think ) upon the motion of Corporeal Organs ; and so the Mind will be nothing else but a motion in certain parts of an Organized Body .

Stud.

If you can clearly and distinctly both explain and prove that which you have now proposed in gross , you shall then be esteemed that great Apollo , whom every one that has feigned any singular Hypothesis , does in the absence of good Neighbours , boast himself to be .

Mr. Hobbes .

Before I undertake this , I will remove out of your way that prejudice which you may have against the notion of the Soul as consisting in Life , by proving most effectually to an Ecclesiastick , that the Scripture giveth countenance to my definition . The Soul b b Leviat . c. 44. pag. 339 , 340. in Scripture signifieth always , either the life , or the living creature ; and the Body and Soul jointly , the body alive . In the first day of the Creation , God said , Let the Waters produce Reptile animae viventis ; The creeping thing that hath in it a living soul : the English translate it , That hath life : And again , God created Whales , Et omnem animam viventem : which in the English is , Every living creature . And likewise of Man , God made him of the dust of the Earth , and breathed in his face the breath of life ; Et factus est homo in animam viventem ; that is , And man was made a living creature . And after Noah came out of the Ark , God saith , He will no more smite , Omnem animam viventem ; that is , Every living creature . And Deut. 12.23 . Eat not the blood , for the blood is the soul ; that is , the Life . From which places , if by Soul were meant a substance incorporeal , with an existence separated from the body , it might aswell be inferred of any other living Creatures , as of Man . —

Stud.

To argue from one sense of an equivocal word to the universal acceptance of it , becomes not a man of ordinary parts . Nephesh , Soul ( as well as Ruach , Spirit ) is a word of various signification in the Old Testament ; and in many places it denotes a a See Maimon . more , Nev. pa. 1. c. 41. pag. 59. will , lust , or pleasure . We read in the Psalmes b b Psalm 105.22 . & Psal. 27 1● . See Ier. 8.15 . Iudg. 1.10.16 , &c. this phrase — To bind his Princes Benaphscho , according to his soul , or , at his pleasure : And again , Deliver me not Benephesch , unto the soul , or will of mine Enemies . When the word is improperly attributed to God in Scripture , this usually is the sense of it . You would now esteem me absurd enough , if I went about to infer from hence , either that the essence of the Soul consisteth in Will and Pleasure , or that the Deity had a Soul , that is Life , that is Motion : The Soul being the spring of bodily life in man , it might by an easie Metonymie , be used ( as in the recited places ) in expressing Life . In that place where the Blood is call'd the Soul or Life ; it was not the design of Moses to set forth Philosophically , the inward essence of a Beast ; but to let the people understand , that the blood of a Beast , which was sprinkled upon the Altar , being an embleme of the life of Man forfeited through disobedience , and an instrument in expiation , they should abstain out of reverence , to that Mystery , from a rude quaffing and devouring of it .

But what answer have you in readiness to those places , where the Scripture speaks distinctly of Body and Soul ?

Mr. Hobbes .

Body and Soul is no more than Body and Life , or Body alive . In those places of the New Testament c c Lev. c. 44 p. 340. , where it is said , that any man shall be cast body and soul into hell-fire ; it is no more than body and life , that is to say , they shall be cast alive into the perpetual fire of Gehenna .

Stud.

Your Gloss is extreamly wide of the unwrested meaning of the holy Text. For our Saviour d d Mat. 10.28 . counselleth his Apostles not to fear them that can kill the body , but are not able to kill the soul ; making a manifest distinction thereby betwixt the Soul and the Life of the Body ; for if the Soul were nothing but the Life of the body ; it were in the power of every man to kill our Souls , unto whose sword and malice our lives lay do open . And thus you see , instead of removing truth , which in me you call a prejudice , you have laid a stumbling block in the way , an occasion of falling into error .

But let us leave the explication of Scripture , in which you are for the greater part unhappy ▪ and attempt the explication of the exalted mechanism of Living Man , wherein you have laboured so many years , and concerning which you have raised the expectations of many .

Mr. Hobbes .

The cause of Sense a a Lev. p. 3● , is the external body , or object , which presseth the organ proper to each sense ; either immediately as in the Tast and Touch ; or mediately as in Seeing , Hearing and Smelling ; which pressure by the mediation of nerves , and other strings , and membranes of the body , continued inwards to the brain and heart , causeth there a resistance , or counter-pressure , or endeavour of the heart to deliver it self ; which endeavour because outward , seemeth to be some matter without ; and the seeming or fancy , is that which men call Sense .

Stud.

You do not here at all surprize me , as if some new Philosophy ( for the main , not heard of , in former ages ) had , to your immortal renown , been first discover'd by you . For it has been said of old , that , All variety in bodies ariseth from motion ; and that Sensation is a perception of that manner in which impressing bodies affect us . For Aristotle b b Ar. de An. l. 3. c. 2. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . hath recited an ancient saying of Philosophers , who holding that Phanta●ms were not the things themselves , but only in our Senses , express'd their opinion by asserting , that there was no blackness , without Sight , nor without Taste . And Des-cartes in his Meteors , published in French together with his Method Dioptriques , and Geometry , as soon as I was born c c A Leyde , 1637. la Diopt. p. 5 , &c. les Meteor . Disc. prem . p. 161 162. , explained the nature of Colours , light , and vision , otherwise than by intentional Species ; and told us that by cold and heat , are to understood perceptions occasioned by the less or more vehement touch of little bodies upon the capillaments of the nerves which serve in our organs to that purpose . Yet I am not tir'd in hearing such Hypotheses repeated or varied ; please then to proceed , and if it liketh you , particularly in the explication of the nature of Vision , wherein the Doctrine of Phantasms is most concern'd .

Mr. Hobbes .

In every great d d Hum. nat. p. 11 , &c. agitation or concussion of the brain ( as it happeneth from a stroke , especially if the stroke be upon the Eye ) whereby the Optick-nerve suffereth any great violence , there appeareth before the Eyes a certain light , which light is nothing without but an apparition only ; all that is real , being the concussion of motion of the parts of that nerve ; from which experience we may conclude that apparition of light is really nothing but motion within — and image and colour is but an apparition to us of that motion , agitation , or alteration which the object worketh in the brain , or spirits , or some internal substance in the head .

Stud.

This exposition of Light by the crouding of the parts , though it be not wholly to be rejected , yet may it ( I think ) be rendred suspicious for a time , by that which deserves , at least , the name of a puzzling Objection . Let us then suppose unto our selves , such a circumference as is surrounded with Eyes : for in every point of enlightned space , and at all times there may be Vision . I say then , that the part in the Center being equally crouded on all sides , no motion or pressure can be thence conveighed Diametrically , from Eye to Eye ; which is against the Hypothesis mention'd . This Scruple concerneth also the Philosophy of Des-cartes ; against whose Globuli , in Vision , there hath likewise of late , been this Exception made . They have been supposed , in a right line , to move after the manner of Jack-wheels , the one from East to West moving the next from West to East : from whence it has been concluded that the motion being thus disturbed , the knowledg of the Object cannot distinctly be attained to by the endeavour of the last Globulus . But , to on it what he himself , hath written a a Meteor ▪ c. 8. p. 28● . to 285. concerning the Collateral Globuli ; I observe , that the Globuli are so exactly turned , that they touch but in a point , in the right line of them , and that therefore , according to Mechanick Laws , the Motion from the first Globulus is conv●igh'd directly through the Center of the second , and so in succession , 'till it hath describ'd such a right line as is required in Vision , without other variation in the pressure , than out ward impediments shall occasion . But not to digress too much , or to conjure up such Objections as we cannot easily dismiss by Solution ; let us attend to what is plain . And first , to speak more generally , to me it is plain , that all this while you have describ'd the Apparatus for Sensation , and not the inward Substance which hath a faculty to perceive that it has been variously pressed by Objects . Aristotle b b De A● . l. 3. c. 8. enquiring how the first principles of Knowledg should be Images ; doth cut in sunde● rather than untie the knot , by saying , that in truth they are no● Phantasms , yet not without them . And Descartes , supposing Beasts without a Soul , does therefore , notwithstanding the curious workmanship of their Machin , not much in●erior unto Man's , deny that they have Perception ; but only move , as the Dove of Archytas , or the Eagle of Regiomontanus . I enquire , then , not after the instruments of Sensation , but the Substance perceiving : Neither do I , yet , understand , after all your words about it , what is properly sense ?

Mr. Hobbes .

Sense a a De corp. c. 25. pag. 292. is a Phantasm , made by the Re-action and endeavour outwards in the Organ of Sense , caused by an endeavour inwards from the Object , remaining for some time more or less .

Stud.

There is not only excited in the Brain an apparence of the Object , but also a Perception of that Image or apparence ; as all , who have their Senses , find by daily experience . If Impressions were , not only Instruments , but acts of Sense ; might we not strongly argue , that a Looking-glass saw , and a Lute heard ?

But , to descend unto particulars ; I will endeavour to make it evident , that neither Sense , nor Imagination , nor Memory , no● Reason , nor Will , can ever become the results of moving and rebounding Matter ▪ without the presence of an Immaterial Mind .

First , Sensation is not made , neither can it be , by the meer re-action of Matter . It would thence follow , Th●t every part of the World , being capable of moving and rebounding , is also , so often as there is this counter-pr●ssure sensible . Then the springs of all Engins . the Elastic air , resisted wind , and an echoed v●ice , are so many perceiving Essences ; and it is an act , almost of as great unmercifulness though not of so great detriment to the Common-wealth● to knock a nail as a man on the head ; for either nail or hammer would ex●reamly smart for 't .

Mr. H●bbes .

I know , c c De corp. p. ●93 . there have been Philosophers , and tho●e learned men , who have maintain'd that all Bodies are endued with Sense . Nor can I see how they can be refuted , if the nature of Sense be placed in Re-action only . And , though by the Re-action of Bodies inanimate a Phantasm might be made , it would nevertheless cease , as soon as ever the Object were removed . For , unless those Bodies had Organs , ( as living Creatures have● fit for the retaining of such Motion as is made in ●hem , their Sense would be such , as that they should never remember the same . And therefore this hath nothing to do with that sense which is the Subject of my Discourse .

Stud.

If this be good Doctrine ; we must , ●bove most persecuted M●n , pity the Hammer or Anvil of Vulc●n ; they being , for the most pa●t ▪ tormented by repeated Strokes . But let this ludicrous Argument give place to more sober Reasoning . Consider then , that Corporeal motion , in all things ( as in water ) aris●th not further in its effects than the Spring-head of its own causal Energy .

Mr. Hobbes ,

It is a a Lev. p. 3. confessed , that Motion produceth nothing but Motion .

Stud.

Then the part counter-pressed , being still only moved , it doth not perceive either that , or how , it s●lf is moved , unless Motion be the perceiving of it self , and the apprehending of M●tion , and of all the varieties of Motion ; which is a phrase of greater insignificancy than any you have not●d amongst the Aristot●lians or School-Doctors In whatsoever Matters we are at difference , I 'm sure we are of the same judgment in this , That a Body at rest , b b Se● de Corp. p. 15 ▪ Lev. p. 4. will always be at rest , unless there be some other body , which by getting into its place , suffers it no longer to remain at rest . So that Matter , in its own nature , is thoroughly dull and stupid ; and in receiving Motion it is meerly passive ; for a Body , when moved , only suffers it self to be crouded from a first place to a second .

Mr. Hobbes .

In that also , we differ not ; for c c De Corp. c. 8. Art. 10. & also p. 150. de Corp. Motion is , by me defined , to be the continual privation of one place and acquisition of another .

Stud.

How then does passive Matter , by being crouded more slowly or swiftly , containing in its own Idea only impenetrable extention , obtain an infused power , from that Motion , to perceive that it is crouded , and in what degree ; and thereby also , to have an active Conc●ption of the Varieties in Nature ?

But what av●ileth Rebounding to the very Act of Sense ? ●or to have Re-action is no more than for passive Matter to be thrust first forward , and then backward . And why then , may not the part which is crouded forward , perceive as well in proceeding ●rom one term in a right line , as in receding from the other term ? the difference not consisting in any Physical causality , but in relation , or respect to divers Terms ? The purest parts of the Blood thrust forward to the spinal Marrow , have the same virtue imparted to them ; as , when they are beaten backward towards the Retina , in relation to the Object of Sight ; if we suppose their force unbroken and unaltered . The difference is resp●ctive , as in the way which leads from Cambridge to London , the way is the same ; and the Hackney coming to Cambridge , may be almost , as well imagined to be wiser , when he is whipped and spurred back towards London , as that a part of the Matter thrust from the influence of the Object into the Brain , may be thought more to p●rceive in its return to the Optick-nerve , than in its direct course a a Hum. nat p. ●4 . The Interior Coat of the Eye is nothing else , but a piece of the Optick-nerve ; & therefore the Motion is still thereby continued into the Brain ; & by resistance or re-action o● the Brain , is also a rebound into the Optick ▪ nerve again , which we not conceiving it as such , call Light .

The like Arguments are to be used against Fancy or Imagination , as a material attribute ; it being but a Perception of Phantasms , ( especia●ly in Vision ) when the Object is removed . H●re we must say again , that , A perceiving of an Image , and a perceiving that it still dwells with us ; and a perceiving that we perceive it ; that is to say , a feeling of a motion , and a knowing that we feel it , and in what manner , in the Organs of Sense ; is not the Motion it self which we perceive we feel : and yet , Motion is all that is introduced into the Senseless , Un●ctive , Matter , and not any new Principle capable of perceiving Motion . For Motion , as was granted , begets nothing but Motion . You h●ve somewhere b b Hum. ●at . p. 13. said , That Colour is but an Apparition to Vs , of that Motion , Agitation or Alteration , which the Object worketh in the Brain or Spirits , or some Internal substance in the head : should you proceed and say , That such Motion , Agitation or Alteration , in the part , is the Sense or Fancy perceiving that Motion , Agitation , or Alteration , that is , it self , ( which yet is your Opinion in varied Terms ) you would surely grate the Ears of the veriest Ass in Nature .

And here the Argument is of stronger conviction , than in sense . For if a part of Matter mov●d , perceives not that Motion , when the O●ject presseth by an immediate influence ; much le●s is it capable of so Doing , when Motion in the Spirits , or Nerve , or Membrane , is subject in short time to languish , and to lose its degree of swistness , or its determination , by the Encounters of fresh Pressures from without , or endeavours from within , which are numerous and almost perpetual .

Farther ; you have admitted of the feign'd conceit of Vacuum in nature ; which you apprehend not as a Phantasm of subtile Matter extended , but conceive a perfectly void space between two Bodies . Of this , you can have no Sensation , because there is no Object to press into the Brain . You have no proper Imagination of it ; for , of Nothing there is no Image . But you have an Idea , or Perception , or in your own word , a Phantasm of it : This Phantasm ( by an Argument ad hominem ) overthrows the opinion of Imagining , or Fancying Matter , whilst it ariseth from the Negation or Privation of it . But that which is of greater strength , is a Reason taken from the disproportion of some Images to the Material Sentient , and the manner how the Image conveigheth it self to the perceiving Matter . We have within us , an Image of the Sun , about two foot in Diameter : were the whole Head the Imagining Subject , it would be no more capable of so wide an Image , than a common Wafer is , of the Broad-Seal . Besides , we may consider , that in the Sentient-Body , each part of it has either the apparence of the whole Image , or of a Part. If , of the whole , then seeing every part of Body is Body , and the smallest atom we can see is resolved further into its parts , and those into their parts without end ; it will follow thence , that we shall have an apparence not of one only Sun , Sun , but of more , perhaps , than we have , of fixed Starrs in the widest and clearest view of the Face of Heaven . If of a part , then w● perceive no whole Image , or entire Apparen●● ; but have as many singular Perceptions broken and divided , as parts in the Image or Percipient : If in any part of the Percipient , all the Impressions are united ; then are the parts of the Image confounded by so doing ; and the parts o● the Percipient by communicating their Motion have lost all their Sense : neither is there a part which has not Parts ; so still the Image will be infinitely multiply'd , or not entirely seen .

The next Faculty , is that of Remembrance , which is not to be ranked amongst Mechanical Powers . I ●●quire then , what Faculty perceiving the Image in the Brain , perceives also that the Object is removed ; and how many hours it hath b●●n absent ; and when there aris●th a like p●●ssure from the same Object , discerneth that such a pressure was formerly made ?

Mr. Hobbes .

By a a De corp. c. 25. p. 290. what Sense ( say you ) shall we take notice of Sense ? I answer by S●ns● it self , namely , by the Memory which for some time remains in us of things sensible , though they themselves pass away : for he that perceives that he has perceived , remembers .

Stud.

I understand that there may remain a quivering in the Retina , Choroeides , and whole Pia Mater , or in the Spirits , after the Object of Sight is removed , whose presence occasioned a more stiffe Pressure . We see the like in extended and moved Nets and Ropes , and a thousand other Examples in Art and Nature : but this trembling in them , as also in such Machins where the Motion may be more entirely and longer imprisoned , does soon vanish . Whereas the Re-action must remain extreamly long , in such Men ( for Instance ) , who at the seventieth year remember most perfectly , and will repeat with pleasure the passages of their School-play ; even those who retain not the things more newly passed . To tell how this can be explained by the meer Mechanism of the Brain , which has received many millions of changes in it self , and Re-actions occasion'd from the Objects of every Hour , requires a more skilful Oedipus than has yet pretended to unriddle the Secrets of Humane Nature . But if we suppose the Motion remaining in the Brain ( which you call Memory ) , there is no satisfaction given to the Question : in which , proceeding further , we demand , By what Power do you perceive this remaining Motion as formerly , caused , and now continuing ? for to say , That the Motion of the Brain is Perception of that Motion ; and that Motion remaining , is the Perception of remaining Motion ; and that decaying is a perception of the remaining yet decaying Motion ; and that this decaying Motion is a Perception that it was a brisker Vibration in time past ; ( whilst all these Motions suppose a faculty pre-existing , or newly produc'd and apprehensive of them ; which , being the issue of Motion cannot be more apprehensive than its Parent ) to say all this , is to pile up absurd speeches unto the very heighth of Non-sense ; and I have done them too much honour , whilst I have taken such frequent notice of them .

I again inquire of you , Whether Sense and Imagination , and Memory , being Motions Phantasms , perish , or are transformed as an impression upon the stamp of new Arms , when the rebounded Motion perisheth , as to the Brain ; or is altered there ?

Mr. Hobbes .

Phantasms a a De corp. c. 25. p. 291. S. 1. or Ideas , are not always the same ; but new ones appear to us , and old ones vanish , according as we apply our Organs of Sense , now to one Object , now to another ; wherefore they are generated and perish . And from hence it is manifest , that they are some change or mutation in the Sentient . Now all mutation , or alteration is Motion , or Endeavour ; and Endeavour also is Motion , in the Internal parts of the thing that is altered .

Stud.

If then , Motion ceaseth , Memory also vanisheth away .

Mr. Hobbes .

It is confessed . And I have said already , That unless Bodies had Organs ( as living Creatures have ) fit for the retaining of such Motion as is made in them , their Sense would be such as that they should never remember the same .

Stud.

If then , Oblivion seizeth on us , that is to say , in your sense and phrase , if the Motion be removed from the Sentient ; when the Organ is again moved by the same Object , there ariseth a new Motion , and a new Sensation , but no Remembrance that we were formerly thus moved ; because the S●ntient has only had Motion as it had at first ; the old is perished ▪ We find by common experience , that when something has escap'd our M●mory for many years ; ( suppose , the name of a Person in Story ) , we turn our Dictionaries , we chime over all Syllables we can think of ; we use all endeavours to rubb up ( as we say ) our Memories , and perhaps in vain .

Mr. Hobbes .

This is Re-conning . And our thoughts run a a Lev. p. 10 , in the same mann●r , as one would sweep a room to find a Jewel ; or as a Spaniel ranges the field , 'till he find a scent ; or as a Man should run over the Alphabet , to start a rime .

Stud.

This business of the Brain is set on work , by the Will or Desire , and so far from being caused by Mechanick impulse , that it is occasioned by a Privation , or , in your way , by the missing of parts .

But , to connect my Discourse to those words wherein you interrupted me ; when , after all rubbings up of Memory , we despair of finding this much-sought Name , a● la●t , p●rhaps by accidence we espy it on a Monument , or Medal , or in a Book ; or hear it , o● something of like sound with it , pronounced by another ; straightway there a●iseth in us not only ● P●rception of this Name , by this new Motion which is the whole Mechanick causality ; but also a knowledg that this was th● g●oat we swept for , the Name sought after ; & a rej●ycing in the discovery . The sound was not able to produce in us any other Image than we held of old , when we first read or heard the word ; by what token then could it be known to be the lost Name found , if M●mory be performed without an Immaterial Soul ?

Having mentioned Ob●●vion , I will go on , by shewing , that , according to your Principles , almost every thing would be as deeply , and as soon forgotten , as I wish your Doctrines were concerning God , and his Angels , and the Sou●s of Men.

Attend then to the meaning of Heraclitus , who was wont to say , That no Man bathed twice in the same River ; and of a Modern Physitian who hath told us , That no Man sits down the same to a second Meal . The Spirits , which with the greatest reason , are supposed to be most the Soul , and to rebound ( because it is not so proper to say , That the Nerves and Membranes rebound from the Spinal Marrow ●o the plexus retiformis ) are always shifting postures and places , and many of them transpire daily , whilst new parts of the Blood are exalted and conveighed into their room . In Children the Organs are changed by accession of Parts ; and in all , in the space perhaps of less than seven years , the whole Sentient , whatsoever it is , is , for the main vanished , ' though the Texture be alike , as was the form of Structure in the Ship of Theseus . How then , ( as Raimundus Martini , argueth a a Raim . Mart. pug ▪ ●idei . par. 1 c. 4. p. 165 Ipsu ●sse illum quoque nunc , qui fuit tunc , est ●ir●nissima mentis ejus conceptio : bujusmodi ergo essentia ejus non est complexio , quae ab ill● tempore forsitan est plus quam millesies permutata . Can any person 〈◊〉 him●●l● , after seventy years , to be individually the same , it he be not endued with a Spiritual and Incorruptible Soul , which remaineth the same intirely throughout that space ; but consisteth only of a Body in Motion , with perpetual flux of Parts ? Or by what fetch or wit can it b● explaned , how the new add●d Matter , by new pressure can remember what was perceived by the former , whose Motion is scattered with it sel● ? If we should suppose the P●rts to remain , and yet the Motion to h●v● p●rished , it is all one to them , when they are moved by a fresh impulse , as if they never had been moved but at that time . Now that the Motion p●risheth daily in effect , that is , that 〈◊〉 far varieth in its degrees and determinations , as not to be in capacity of repr●senting the Object as it did in its unchanged condition , will I think be concluded by premises , by your self , laid down . Do you not then , not only ascribe to the several Senses , proper Organs , and in them proper parts which have animation ; but also affirm the Heart to be the common seat of Sense ?

Mr. Hobbes .

The Heart b b De Corp. c. 25 S. 10 p. 301. is a common Organ to all the Senses ; whereas that which reacheth from the Eye to the roots of the Nerves , is proper only to sight . The proper Organ o● Hearing is the Tympanum of the Ear , and its own N●rve , from which to the Heart the Organ is common . In the proper Organs of Smell and Taste are nervous Membranes ; in the Palate and Tongue , for the Taste ; and in the Nostrils , for the Smell ; and from the roots of those Nerves to the Heart , all is common . Lastly , the proper Organ of Touch are Nerves and Membranes dispersed through the whole Body ; which Membranes are derived from the root of the Nerves . And all things else belonging alike to all the Senses seem to be administred by the Arteries , and not by the Nerves .

Stud.

The Spirits , then moved in Vision by the Object , return by counter-pressure to the Retina , and from thence by such Arteries as you make conjecture of b b Ibid ad init . , unto the Heart , the source of Spirits .

Mr. Hobbes .

Conceptions c c Hum. nat. c. 7. p. 69. and apparitions ( which are nothing really but Motion in some Internal Substance of the Head ) stop not there ; but the Motion proceedeth to the Heart . And as in sense d d Lev. p. 25 ● . 6. that which is really within us , is only Motion but in apparence ; to the Sight , light and colour ; to the Ear , sound , &c. — So when the action of the Object is continued from the Eyes , Ears , and other Organs to the Heart ; the real effect , there , is nothing but Motion or Endeavour ; which consisteth in Appetite , or Aversion , to or from , the Object moving . But the apparence or sense of that Motion , is that we either call delight , or trouble of Mind .

Stud.

It is then , impossible to remember , seeing the Motion , in passing to the heart , and in being in the heart , whilst it is dilated in receiving blood from the Vena Cava , and contracted in forcing what is receiv'd into the Habit of the Body , ( for the vulgar Systole is the Diastole of the Heart , and vice versa ) must needs be either communicated to other parts already in Motion , or encreased by the receit of Motion from such infinite parts of blood justling with it , or at least , varied once and again in its determinations , rebounding often from divers terms : wherefore it must be suppos'd to perish ; not properly indeed , seeing no Motion is lost any other way than money is said to be lost when it passeth from one Gamster to another , but to all the intents and purposes of representing the Object ; which , to awaken a new Sensation , must come into the Brain by a new Impulse . So that Motion in the Blood , from the Impression of an outward Object , is like that of water , by a stone cast in ; it is propagated from one circle to another , 'till at length it passeth undiscerned into a foreign subject .

But it is time to hasten our pace in the present Controversie . In which , I could not , to say truth , have been very brief , if I had but made a short rehearsal of the very heads of such Arguments as overthrow the Doctrine of Thinking Matter .

Let us then , pass by these lower powers of Sense , and Fancy , and Memory ; and consider the more advanced faculty of Reason ; and here we shall perceive , by the manner of Mental working , that Reason is a power superiour to Imagination , and much more to all the causality of corporeal pressure . For ( as Descartes a a Medit. 6. p. 36. has , with acuteness , and truth , observed ) we otherwise think of or understand a Triangle , and a figure of a thousand Angles . When we think of a Triangle , we not only understand a figure comprehended by three lines , but also we have a Perception , or Image of those three lines in our Brain ; and that is Imagination . But when we think of a Figure of a thousand Angles , we as perfectly , by our Reason understand , that it consists of a thousand sides , as we perceive the other to consist of three ; but we cannot imagin those thousand Sides and Angles after the same manner that we did the three ; that is , behold them as distinctly pictur'd in our Brain , as present in a Phantasm . And although , by reason of the custom which we have gotten of imagining something as often as there is mention made of a corporeal subject , we may perhaps represent to our selves some confused figure at the hearing the foresaid figure named ; yet it is plain , that this is not the image of a figure of a thousand sides and Angles , because it is in nothing differing from that Image of a Figure which should represent to my self , in thinking of a Figure with a myriad of Sides and Angles , or of any other of very many Sides ; neither doth it conduce at all to the understanding of those proprieties whereby a figure of a thousand Angles differs from other very Polygonous Figures .

Again , to proceed in order , I will endeavour to make it evident , beyond all just exception , that the power of Reasoning , in the acts of simple Appreh●nsion , of connecting simple notions into a Proposition , of deriving consequences from premised propositions , is not the meer result of the moved Mechanism of Man's Body .

First , In the Acts of simple Apprehension , our Reason , exercised in Notions purely Logical , or Metaphysical , has Ideas which are estranged from all Corporeal Matter . For they are not conceptions of single Beings , but of the manner how we conceive of them our selves , or declare our conceptions unto others . Thus every Youth will tell us , within few days after Matriculation , That Homo is Species .

Mr. Hobbes .

The Universality a a Hum. nat. p. 48 , 49. of one Name to many Things , has been the cause that Men think the Things are themselves universal ; and so seriously contend , that besides Peter and Iohn , and all the rest of the Men that are , have been , or shall be in the World , there is yet something else that we call Man , viz. Man in general ; deceiving themselves , by taking the universal or general appellation , for the thing it signifieth : For , if one should desire the Painter to make him the Picture of a Man ; which is as much as to say , of a Man in general ; he meaneth no more but that the Painter should chuse what Man he pleaseth to draw , which must needs be some of them that are , or have been , or may be ; none of which are universal : But when he would have him to draw the Picture of the King , or any particular person ; he limiteth the Painter to that one person he chuseth .

Stud.

I affirm not , that there is such an existing Being as Man in general ; yet that , there is such an abstracted notion of Man , or Manhood , all Circumstances of Individuation laid aside , is manifest ; seeing it is not a true and proper Predication to say , a Man is Socrates : and therefore the notion reacheth beyond a singular ; and therefore is not an impulse from Sense , whose Objects are all singular . And because a Painter cannot make the Picture of Human Nature , but only of a Human Person ; i● followeth that such a Notion is not Pictur'd in the Fancy . Besides , when we say , a Man is a Species ; we represent not to our selves ( properly in Logick ) Human Nature , but the manner whereby our Mind conceives of it , whilst it takes notice that it agrees to Peter and Paul , a●d Thomas , and every single Man that has been , or is , or shall be produced : For to be Species is not said of Man alone , but of every common Nature . And , this also you might have known more than 6ty years ago in Magdalen-hall in Ox● . It is a shame therefore , for you , to upbraid the Schools , of non-sense and deceit ; into which , if you had enter'd with apprehension , this back-door to Atheism had never bin set open by you .

Further , To take you a short lesson out of Ramus , a Man who understood the Mathematicks , and yet despis'd not , though he reformed Logick : The Invention of Arguments , shews Reason to be above the Laws of Matter . For , the Arguments in his first part of Logick ; ( that is , Topicks apt to argue or declare the relation of one thing to another ; as ( Virgil in the fourth Aeneid , says , Fear does argue degenerate Minds ) such as are Cause , Effect , Subject , Adjunct , and the like ; being used here , not to find out the nature of single Beings ( which appertains to Natural Philosophy , Medics , and other Sciences ) nor to interpret Names ( which appertains to Grammar ) but only as places declaring the mutual 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 or habitudes of one thing to another , which may be related divers ways ; they cannot possibly arise from the single and absolute motions of sense . Wonder not , now , that I am so busie in the first Elements of Logick , seeing your own misconceit about the art of Reasoning , is a manifest relapse into the Ignorance of a second Childhood , and sheweth a necessity of your returning to Oxford anew .

Again , if we consider Reason in the framing of Propositions , we find that we connect and disjoyn Subjects and Predicates , we compare and refer them ; we say , this appertains to the other , or it does not ; it is equal to it , or unequal ; like , or unlike ; which being acts of Relation , cannot wholly arise from any thing pressing into the Brain from without , which must be some single and absolute Object ; but from the meer efficacy of an Incorporeal mind . It is impossible that the Sentient by meer Motion should connect or compare one Image with another . For , a divers Phantasm is a divers Motion ; and supposing they remain , the Motion is in a divers part : seeing , the Phantasms or divers Motions would be confounded , if in the same part of the Brain , they should conspire . If then there be one Phantasm in one part , and a second in another , by what imaginable power can they confer ? For , if any part gives its Motion to the other , or receives from it ; the Motion , that is the Phantasm of it , is , by so doing , changed . I may here subjoyn , that , without the Anticipation of Propositions in the mind , it is a difficult matter to understand , how we can be capable of Sense or Fancy , unless we first know what it is to know , and have some antecedent rules whereby to judg of receiv'd Images .

Last of all , in deriving Consequences , in longer or shorter trains of coherence , reason shews it self to be an immaterial faculty : For if two Images cannot , as hath bin prov'd , be aptly connected by Imagination and Memory , supposed Mechanical ; Reason , surely , which ranketh all Beings into their distinct Orders and Dependencies ; and connecteth myriads of such Ideas as have no Phantasm appertaining to them , must be divine . Images and Thoughts are produced in us in much disorder , by reason that the Objects which we converse with are many and divers ; and because , our Studies vary upon infinite occasions : so that our thoughts at first do spring up one by one , as Jewels are found . It is , then , the work of Reason to recall and gather together all such of them as are of the same kind , and to lay aside the rest for a convenient season ; and to judg further of their agreeableness , & how they depend upon and illustrate each other , and so as it were to string them into a long a●d nervous coherence ; a chain most fit to adorn a Philosopher . I know not , how a Phantasm , or moved part in the Brain , can receive any other into mutual dependence , which the force of the antecedent or consequent Objects adds not to it . For that which is in Motion acts not at a distance , but presseth only its neighbour ; and that , by way of pulsion , not attraction .

Again , Reason , by the drawing of divers Consequences , correcteth Sense ; which , though it doth not properly deceive , ( being such a Perception as naturally ariseth from such a pressure , and such a disposed Organ ) yet would it leave us for ever in Ignorance , if our Reason did not convince us , that the Object is not adequately represented by the Image . In Sense , Imagination , or Memory , one of the fixed Starrs seems not bigger than that in the Badg of the Order of the Garter : the Image is no greater , the Motion of no further force ; and therefore Reason , which by consequences in Astronomy , infers that it is bigger than the Earth , is something much superior to Motion derived from the Object .

If after all this , a Man shall say , that the very train of Corporeal Motions in the Head , is the Reason which judgeth of that train , disturbeth its dependance made by succession of Objects , disposeth it after a new manner , and also at pleasure ordereth the train of Logical Ideas not generated by Motion ; it may sooner be resolved concerning such a saying , than about the Perpendicular and Circle in the Angle of Contact ( touching which you think you have written a a Ep. ded . before 6. Less . p. 4. D. W's . Treatises de Aug. Cont & Arith Infin I have in two or three leaves wholly and clearly con●uted . shrewd matters ) that it doth not meerly incline to , but is co incident with non-sense .

Mr. Hobbes .

Here is a great deal said , and b b Mr. H. Consid. p. 60. too much to be confuted . yet almost every saying may be disproved , or ought to be reprehended . In sum ; It is all error and railing .

But what will you say , c c O●j . 4. p. 96. if perhaps Ratiocination be nothing but the coupling and concatenation of Names , by the Verb Est ? whence we collect by reason , nothing at all of the Nature of things , but of their Appellations , to wit , whether we joyn the Names of things according to the Agreements which we made ( at pleasure ) about their signification , or whether we do otherwise . If this be so , as so it may be , Ratiocination may depend upon Names , Names upon Imagination , and Imagination , perhaps , as I think , upon the motion of Corporeal Organs ; and so , still , the Soul will be nothing else besides agitation in certain parts of a well framed Body . Nay , It is plain a a Hum. nat. p. 49. that there is nothing universal but Names . And Reason b b Lev. c. 5. p. 18. is nothing but reckoning of the Consequences of general Names agreed upon , to certain purposes .

Stud.

Let Des-Cartes c c Resp. 3. p. 96. answer this Objection , to whom you once proposed it . There is ( said he ) in Ratiocination ; a coupling not of Names , but of things signified by certain Names ; and I admire how the contrary could enter into the mind of any Man : For , who doubts that a Frenchman and a German do reason the same things concerning the same Subjects , whilst they conceive their Notions in different Words or Names ? And doth not this Philosopher condemn himself , whilst he speaks concerning Pacts which we made at pleasure , teaching the signification of Words ? for if he admitteth that any thing is signified by Words , why will not he have our Ratiocination consist in that something which is signified , rather than in the bare Words themselves . Thus he , and ( as I think ) with unanswerable pertinence . It might be also said , that , by this Doctrine , an Ass , and a Dumb-man , are equally without Reason , and that a Parrot is indued with it .

Mr. Hobbes .

There d d Lev. c. 4. p. 16. is no Reasoning without speech . By g g Hum. nat. p. 46. the advantage of Names it is that we are capable of Science ; which Beasts for want of them , are not , nor Man , without the use of them .

Stud.

Where is your Reason in these words , considering the ingeniousness of divers Dumb-men , excelling that of many who are loudly talkative ? Names doubtless , though connected , are not Reason , but the Registers of our Thoughts and Reasonings ; and we proceed from Mental to Verbal discourse ; and when we have conceived a Book , we may , express to the World , the sense of it , in what language we please , if we be Masters of it . The use of Names causeth rather a readiness in Reasoning than begetteth Reason ; and , I think , you somewhere , in your Leviathan a a Lev. p. 12 in the end , & p. 14. do confess it . So that I may say of Names , as you have done of Symbols in Geometry , that themselves are not Science b b Ep. ded. bef . ● Less . but serve only to make men go faster about , in Reasoning ; as greater wind to a wind-mill .

Well , I have talk'd my self into a necessity of drinking this untempting Ale . Sir , A good Health to you .

Mr. Hobbes .

Your Servant , Sir , — that Liquor is not very proper for Philosophers .

Stud.

This very Draught has put me in mind of an Objection , which makes me extreamly to dislike the Doctrine of Mechanick Ratiocination .

This muddy Ale , it seems , shall in some part of it , circle with the Blood , and be sublimed in the Heart , and sent up in Arteries to the Head , and there shall perceive , imagin , remember , and help me to Philosophize , and to make divine Discourses ; and give me not only the warmth , but the very essence of Mental or Verbal Prayer and Thanksgiving . Nay ( that we may pass , in due time to our Sixt Subject ) , It shall also Will and Nill : which I find I may do ; and think strange that I can do so by the meer power of Matter .

Mr. Hobbes .

There a a Libert . & Nece . p. 61 are certain and necessary causes which make every man to will what he willeth .

Stud.

Herein , I confess , you disagree not from your self , though you seem at the widest distance from the truth . And Regius b b Phil. nat: p. 478. is much more to be blamed for inconsistency , who ass●rting that the Soul might be a mode of the Body , did yet profess that the Will was free ; and , in his own phrase , sui juris . For your self , it was fit , upon supposition of your belief of a Corporeal Universe , that you should maintain a necessity of Willing . For if every thing be Matter , each effect in the World , being the meer result of motion in Matter , will be produced by fatal impulse : And , likewise , that producing impulse , will be necessitated by a former , and so on in so long an order , as cannot be pursu'd , ( without the admittance of an Incorporeal God ) to any end of it , distinctly known . Wherefore the Stoicks , long before you , supposing God to be a kind of Fire , and the Soul to be a subtil Body ; held also the opinion of Irresistible Fate . And Plutarch , and Stobaeus take notice of both Opinions together , as I find them cited by Lipsius in his Manuduction c c I. Lyps . Phys. Stoi . l. 1. p. 28. to that Philosophy : Upon which occasion , a worthy and learned person , hath in his Discourse at the Funeral of Bishop Hall , deservedly call'd you the New Stoick . If then there be nothing more divine in Man , than Matter and Motion ; he does as necessarily chuse or refuse , as Fire ascends , or a Stone is pressed towards the Earth .

Mr. Hobbes .

It is no more a a Libert . & Necess. p. 17 , 18. necessary that Fire should burn , than that a man or other creature , whose Limbs be moved by Fancy , should have Election , that is Liberty , to do what he hath a fancy to do , though it be not in his Will or Power to choose his fancy , or to choose his Election and Will. Good b b Liber . & Nec . p. 61 , & 62. and evil sequels of Mens Actions retained in Memory , do frame and make us to the Election of whatsoever it be that we elect ; and the memory of such things proceeds from the Senses , and Sense from the operation of the Objects of sense , ( which are external to us , and govern'd only by God Almighty ) and by consequence all actions , even of free and voluntary Agents , are necessary .

Stud.

Were Man such a piece of Mechanism as has been forged by your untoward invention much of the Cause would be granted to you : and yet , not this , that the Memory of good or evil Sequels of Mens Actions do frame us unto Every election ; because there are too many whom no examples of Punishment will deterr from such evil manners , as they see daily producing bitter effects . But , seeing it has been prov'd that there is in Man , an Immaterial Soul ; it follows thence , that the Motions from the Object , continued to the Brain and Heart , can only solicite , and not force the Assent of that Incorporeal Being which giveth them passage , or resisteth them , and determineth them at its pleasure , in divers cases . Neither can outward force any more restrain this Spiritual mind , than Xerxes could properly fetter the Hellespont . There is then , left me but little work in oppugning your Opinion about Liberty and Necessity , seeing the foundation of your belief of Fate , is the Corporeity of the Universe .

It is also , to be considered , that a Person of great fame and place , hath already contended with you ; so very much to your disadvantage , that it seems not worth the while for any Man henceforth , to enter the lists . And of this I will not make my self the Judg , but repeat the opinion of a Learned Man , who was wont to declare his mind in Controversies , with unbyassed freedom . It is known every where ( said that Elegant a a Bishop Taylor 's Fun. Ser. on Bishop Bramhall , p. 55 , 56. Writer ) , with what Piety and acumen [ the last Lord Primate of all Ireland ] wrote against the Manichean Doctrine of fatal Necessity , which a late witty Man had pretended to adorn with a new vizor ; but this excellent person wash'd off the Cerusse , and the Meritricious Paintings ; rarely well asserted the Oeconomy of the Divine Providence ; and having once more triumph'd over his Adversary , Plenus Victoriarum & Trophaearum , be took himself to the more agreeable attendance upon Sacred Offices .

Mr. Hobbes .

This luxuriant Pen-man boasts of Trophies ; and the Bishop himself , of old , talk'd of b b Liber . & Necess. p. 5. clearing the coast by Distinctions , and dividing his forces into two squadrons , one of places of Scripture , the other of Reasons . And I say notwithstanding ( to continue in the military allusion begun by them ) that in my Books a a Lib. & Nec . p. 64. not only his squadrons of Arguments , but also his reserve of Distinctions are defeated .

Stud.

I perceive you intend to make good the Character now given of you , of being a witty Man : although , according to the Principles of your own Philosophy , it redoundeth not much to your reputation . For Wit b b See Hu. Nat. p. 124 depending upon a tenuity and agility of spirits , there seemeth wanting in a very witty Man , that fixation of parts which is required to Prudence .

Touching your Antagonist , there is no doubt ( and it appeareth by your fretting and sprawling ) that you have felt the smart of that Opposition which he hath made against you . But , so far as I can remember , ( for I have not had for some years , any writing of his in my possession ) he hath not level'd his men in force against that place wherein you seem ( to me ) most capable of being wounded , and wherein your chief strength seemeth to lay ; that is to say , the Materiality of the whole Sphaere of Nature . In relation to which , I am apt to be perswaded , that in this Controversie about Fate , you by a daring consequence , do charge the most holy God with all the iniquities committed in the World . For all Effects arising from Motion ; and all Motion being derived from the first immoveable Mover , all subordinate Causes and Effects will owe themselves in a chain-like dependance , to the supreme Original Cause .

Mr. Hobbes .

The concourse a a Lib. & Ne● . p. 16. of all causes maketh not one simple chain or concatenation , but an innumerable number of Chains , joyned together , not in all parts , but in the first link , God Almighty . — That which , I say , necessitateth b b Lib. & Nec . p. 15. and determineth every action , is the sum of all things , which being now existent , conduce and concur to the production of that Action hereafter , whereof if any one thing now were wanting , the effect could not be produced : This concourse of Causes , whereof every one is determined to be such as it is by a like concourse of former Causes , may well be called ( in respect they were all set and ordered by the eternal Cause of all things , God Almighty ) The Decree of God . Every act c c Eev . c. 21 p. 108. of mans will , and every desire and inclination proceedeth from some cause , and that from another cause , in a continual Chain ( whose first link is in the hand of God , the Cause of all Causes ) ; and therefore the voluntary Actions of Men proceed from Necessity .

Stud.

Impute not that , with falshood and dishonour , to God , which is caused by Man's unconstrained Will ; the only Mother which conceiveth and bringeth forth Sin ; not withstanding that Objects may incline , and Examples may entice , and opportunities may invite , and evil Angels may tempt , and Constitution may encline , and God permitteth . Let no Man , therefore , say when he is tempted , he is tempted of God ; for , every Man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust , and enticed .

Mr. Hobbes .

'T is Blasphemy a a Liber . & Nec . p. 24. to say , God can sin ; but to say , that God can so order the World as a sin may be necessarily caused thereby in a Man , I do not see how it is any dishonnour to Him .

Stud.

These Answers should not have proceeded from a Man , who professeth himself a Christian of no mean degree . b b Hi Cons. p. 46 , 47. Nor can the clamor of my Adversaries make me think my self , a worse Christian than the best of them . They come ( I was ready to say ) as unexpectedly , as if they had dropped out of the Heavens ; but that they have relation to a lower place . If we brand mortal Men with Names of Infamy and tokens of our abhorence , calling them unmerciful , bloody , deceitful ; who are said by you , in all their actions , to be drawn by Fate ; how can we speak or think with honour of the Deity , whilst we apprehend him as the Original Causer of all those evils , for which we ( unhurt ) abominate one another ; which he himself hath told us he doth abhor ; and for the commission of which Immoralities he will execute vengeance upon the brutish part of Mankind ? When a Sword is sheathed in the Bowels of an innocent and good Man , we reproach not the bloody Weapon which was moved by force ; but we give titles of extraordinary dishonour to the barbarous will of that savage Man , who made it an instrument of such dreadful mischief . If men be carryed on in all their Circumstances , by the mighty torrent of irresistible Motion ; their iniquities , and the dishonours due unto them , are chargable upon the source and spring of Motion . If Men are necessitated to act or omit , as also to will or to refuse , then Exhortations unto such Duties as they perform not , are bitter taunts , and like commands to a Criple to rise up and walk ; and punishment for such evils as they commit , is a cruel usage ; and a declaration against Sin , as hated by the first Cause , ( who cannot be thought in earnest to detest his own workmanship ) ; and as the default of Man ( who is asked in Scripture why he will die ? whilst his very Will to die , is by you supposed fatal ) is imperious mockery , and unworthy deceit . St. Austin himself in his 10 th . cap. de Fide , contra Manichaeos a a Quis non clame● stultum esse praecep●ta dare ei , c●i librum non est quod pracipitur facere . Et iniquum esse ●um damnare , cui n●n fuit potestas jussa complere ? , speaketh in words to the same effect ; Who ( said the Father ) may not cry out , that it is a ridiculous thing to bind Precepts upon him , who is not at liberty to obey them ; and an unrighteous thing to condemn that man who had no power to perform what he was commanded ? And what can be said of God , which may betoken honour , if he be once accused as the Author of Sin ?

Mr. Hobbes .

Men b b Lev. cap. 21. p. 108. may do many things which God does not command ; and therefore he is not the Author of them .

Stud.

He is more the Author , who doth secretly necessitate , than he who only does command the effect ; in as much as a command may , as it is daily , be disobey'd , but power irresistible is not to be eluded . And David would have bin more entirely and notoriously the Murtherer of Vriah , by forcing the armed hand of an Ammonite upon him , and the Ammonite less guilty ; than by a bare appointing of him to be placed in the Front of the Battel . Besides , it seems superfluous perfluous to command the doing of that , which the supposed Commander ( with or without promulgation of his Will ) does unavoid●bly bring to pass : for you make God the first Causer of all that is performed , even against the Revelation of his pleasure .

Mr. Hobbes .

I grant that , though a a Lev. ib. Men may do many things which God does not command ; yet that they can have no passion , nor appetite to any thing , of which appetite God's Will is not the Cause .

Stud.

Why then did accused Adam transfer the blame on Eve , and she upon the Serpent ? It had been an easie , if it might have been a true reply , for both of them to have said , Thou thy self didst force us unto that , which by thee is so severely reprehended . The Serpent himself at the hearing of his doom , remained silent ; the very Father of Lies not being impudent in so excessive a degree , as to charge the Almighty with his own evils . Wherefore , in ascribing Sin to God as the first cause of it , you put me in mind of their fancy , upon a mistaken Text , who b b See Heinsii . Exer. Sac. p. 227 affirm'd Leviathan to be the very Father of the Devil . I cannot heartily beg your pardon for that note , because it is necessary that I be zealous , when once the holiness and goodness of God is reproached by humane wit , impudence , madness .

Mr. Hobbes .

Condemn not in such a furious way , good Dedoctor c c 6 Less . p. 64. of Morality ; for with as ill manners you affirm that God is the Permitter , as I have done , in saying he is the Cause of every action .

I am a a L. & N. p. 22.23 . not ignorant that Divines distinguish between Will and Permission ; and say , that , God Almighty does indeed sometimes permit sins , and that he also foreknoweth that the sin he permitteth shall be committed , but does not will nor necessitate it . — But I find no difference between the Will to have a thing done , and the permission to do it , when he that permitteth can hinder it , and knows that it will be done unless he hinder it .

Stud.

The difference is heavenly-wide betwixt bare Permission , and that Will which you have fancied in Almighty God ; a Will b b See Lev. p. 108. attended with such a disposal of all things , as begetteth a necessity in Man's Will of doing Gods . For no Man ever could imagin ( your self excepted ) that bare Permission should have the influence of a necessary Cause ; whereas such influence is ascrib'd , by you , to the Will of God . It appeareth by the Revelation which God hath made to Man , that he does so will Religion that it would be more pleasing to him for Man to obey , than to remain perverse ; yet not in such a manner , that he compelleth him to become his subject by active compliance : for that were to unmake Man as such , that is , as a creature endu'd with a free Will. When God saith of his Vineyard , which made not such returns of fruitfulness as were proportion'd to his cultivation of it , that he could do no more for it than he had done ; he declared plainly that he used such means as were consistent with a liberty in Man of neglecting or misimproving them : And the exercise of this liberty in sinning he permitteth , in regard to Man's free free nature , and because he can , not only chastise him for his delinquency , but likewise , by his Methods and infinite wisdom , bring good out of it . There being then in God , in many cases , a Conditional Will , that will , without the rescinding of any law of Man's unconstrain'd Election , is always done , either by the obedience of Man , or by the vindication of abused mercy in the correction of a stubborn sinner . And thus we have seen how injurious your Doctrine of Necessity , hath been to the just honour of the most Holy Will of God . It is , also , manifest that by the same way , I will not call of reason , but of bold asseveration , you upbraid all Laws , whereby any punishment is inflicted upon Malefactors , of most rigorous and unreasonable procedure ; and thereby , after dishonour done to God , you vilisie his Vicegerents . For , why is the Scourge or Brand , the Rope , or Fire ; the Press , Axe , or Bullet , prepared for those Men , who do not , by their own free choice and power , lay open the fence which Authority hath set down ; but are hurried through it by a foreign violence , against which it is in vain to struggle ? Sword and Pistol , or whatsoever is an instrument in the violation of the Law , or safety of Man , is as guilty as Man himself , and with indignation to be broken in pieces ; if Man be unavoidably and fatally managed ( as in a Puppet-play ) by a foreign hand , discern'd only by you who pretend to see within the Curtain . I remember to have read , that Draco , the Athenian , made a Law , whereby the very Instruments of Homicide were punish'd . And the Sons of him that perished by the fall of Nicon's Statue a a Suidas in Nicon . which he had whipped , in order to the greater infamy of Nicon , condemn'd the Statue as a Murtherer , and with solemnity , threw it into the Sea But they were not so sottish , by these Laws and practices , to pretend a real punishment of such Instruments ; but they design'd , to move Beholders to the greater abhorrence of spilling human Blood ; and they gave some vent to the fermenting rage of their inward passion , which might have swell'd to their greater discommodity , if they had not sought some means of dischargeing it .

Mr. Hobbes .

'T is b b Lib. Nec . p. 66. unreasonable to punish some Actions of Men , which could not be justly done by man to man , unless the same were voluntary . — The c c Lib. Nec . p. 41 , 42. nature of Sin consisteth in this , that the Action done proceed from our Will , and be against the Law . A Judg , in judging whether it be a sin or no which is done against the Law , looks at no higher cause in the Action than the Will of the doer . Now when I say , the Action is necessary , I do not say it was done against the will of the Doer , but with his will . — And d d Lib. & Nec . p. 27 , 28. the Will to break the Law , maketh the Action unjust ; because the Law regardeth the Will , and no other precedent Causes of Action .

Stud.

The Will , if we have regard to the Opinion which you hold concerning it , can neither render the Action unjust , or the Judg righteous in his sentence of Condemnation : because every Volition e e See Lib. & Necess. p. 42. or Act of the Will and Purpose of Man is , by outward violence , made unavoidable ; and the beginning f f See L. & Nec . p. 17. and progress of deliberation dependeth , also , upon necessary Causes .

Mr. Hobbes .

I acknowledg that a a Lib. & N. p. 71 , 72. when first a Man hath a Will to something , to which immediately before he had no Appetite nor Will ; the cause of the Will is not the Will it self , but something else , not in his own disposing . So that whereas it is out of controversie , that of Voluntary Actions , the Will is the necessary Cause ; and by this which is said , the Will is also caused by other things whereof it disposeth not : it followeth , that Voluntary Actions have all of them necessary causes , and therefore are nec●ssitated .

Stud.

Wherefore , if the Law inflicteth capital punishment upon a Man with regard unto his Will ; the Man suffers for that which was not in his power to help ; and is therefore to be reckoned amongst those whose blood is shed without any proper stain in it .

Mr. Hobbes .

Men b b Lib. & Nec . p. 29. are justly killed , not for that their Actions are necessitated , but because they are noxious . — Men are not c c L. & N. p. 30. therefore put to death , or punished , for that their theft proceedeth from Election , but because it was noxious , & contrary to Mens preservation .

Stud.

The Law regards the free choice , ' though it hath respect also to the mischief derived on the Commonwealth . Wherefore there have been Cities of Refuge constituted for the safeguard of those who had unwittingly , kill'd a man ; whilst the wilful Murtherers were to repay blood for blood . And amongst our selves the blood of the most unuseful person in the Land , shall be avenged by the death of the ablest Soldier , or Counsellor , if the Law may have its course , and it be satisf'd , that he shed it with a deliberate stroke ; whilst a pitiful ignorant Criple shall escape , if by meer mischance , he shall slay such a man as is able to serve a Kingdom , either by his Sword or Prudence . In which cases , the Laws have regard , rather to the wilfulness than the noxiousness of the Actors . So also in the Roman Law * * Mosaic . & Roman . Leg. Collat. Tit. 12. p. 37. ( reported by Paulus I. C. de poenis Paganorum ) he that wilfully burnt an house was to suffer death ; but he that , by accident , burnt a Village , or an Island , was but a Debtor . But if noxiousness be the Rule of Judging , then are you to change your phrase and say , not that men are punished ( which presupposeth a crime ) but afflicted or killed ; after the manner of Beasts , which , not being capable of Law , do perish without Law ; as their ruin conduceth to the behoof or security of Man . And therefore the Civil Law a a L. i. ff. s● Quadrup . S. 1. calleth not the fact of a Beast injuria , but damnum ; and determineth that a Beast , being devoid of Reason , can do no Injury .

Mr. H●bb .

As for b b Lib. & Nec . p. 30. Beasts , we kill them justly when we do 't in ord'r to our own preservation .

Stud.

But that Justice dependeth upon the dominion which God hath vouchsafed Man over those Creatures to which some will not allow so much as sense , * * See Descartes in 2. vol. Epist. lat. p. 6 , 7. &c. and many no more than direct Perception ; though you are so profuse , in one of your Books c c Lib. & Nec . p. 10 , 11 , 12. , as to grant them Election and Deliberation . And here , let it be observed , that God who hath given this Dominion to Man , hath revealed it also to be his purpose , not to rule and judg him by absolute Soveraignty ; nor to approve of Men , whilst they measure their Right amongst themselves by a power not to be controll'd . But he hath shew'd that he will govern them , and have you deal with one another , according to the equal Laws of their reasonable Nature .

Mr. Hobbes .

You run on in Exceptions against that Doctrine of Necessity , which I have proposed ; but you take no notice of the inconveniencies wherwith your own opinion is pressed .

And first , you take no notice of the consistence of Freedom and Necessity ; or that God and good Angels a a Lib. & Nec . p. 48. are supposed to be freer than Men , and yet do good necessarily . It was b b L. & N. p. 34. a very great praise , in my opinion , that Villeius Paterculus gives Cato , where he says , That he was good by Nature ; Et quia aliter esse non potisit .

Stud.

The Necessity wherewith Almighty God doth always good , is of a kind extremely different from that Physical co-action which you believe to be the Cause of each effect , For , he determineth himself by the eternal Reason of his own most perfect nature , and is not urged by outward impulse ; which if it could once be attributed to him , he would , straightway , cease to be God Omnipotent .

Mr. Hobbes .

That word , Omnipotent , reminds me of a second inconvenience , which attendeth the Opposers of my Doctrine . For if c c Lev. c. 21. p. ●08 . Gods Will did not assure the necessity of Man's Will , and consequently of all that on Man's Will dependeth ; the Liberty of Men would be a contradiction and impediment to the Omnipotence and Liberty of God .

Stud.

It is in you absurd to mention Liberty even in relation to God himself ; because , by ascribing to him a Material Nature , you assign him no Motions but such as arise from Physical compulsion . — But , upon what account is it said by you , that the Omnipotence of God must be obstructed by the grant of an undetermin'd liberty in Man ? It is not , that I know of , affirm'd by any Disputant , that there is such a lawless Liberty in Man , as is not under subjection to the absolute Power of God , but that it is a Liberty which God Almighty , in an agreeableness to the free nature of Man , hath been pleas'd to grant ; and for the greater part to suffer in the exercise of it . Only it is said concerning sin , that God cannot force the Will of Man to the commission of it : for , the production of such a wretched Issue , would argue , not omnipotency , but impotence and imperfection in the parent of it . God created Man , and gave a Law to him ; and design'd not to use his Almighty Power to effect the fulfilling of that Law ; which Power supposeth the Command of a Law to be in vain . He therefore that interposeth not his Power whilst he may , hath not his Power disanulled when his preceptive Will is only withstood , and he permitteth that disobedience .

Mr. Hobbes .

But what Elusion can be invented touching the foreknowledg of God ? The denying necessity a a Lib. & Nec . p. 79 , 80. destroyeth both the Decrees and Prescience of God Almighty ; for , whatsoever God hath purposed to bring to pass by Man , as an instrument , or foreseeth shall come to pass ; a Man if he have Liberty , from necessitation , might frustrate and make not to come to pass ; and God should either not foreknow it , and not decree it ; or he should foreknow such things shall be , as shall never be , and decree that which shall never come to pass .

Stud.

Touching the Decees of God , it cannot be proved that they extend to all things which come to pass . For his Prescience I 'm sure , that it extendeth to all things possible to be known , and that it hath no necessary influence upon the Event ; it doth neither hinder the Power of God , nor the Liberty of Man . God foreseeth that the Event may come to pa●s , and that he will not hinder it , yet that he might : and it cometh to pass most necessarily if God ●oreseeth it ; but the necessity ariseth from the supposition of the infallibility , and not from any causal energy , of divine foreknowledg . It is manifest by the fulfilled Prophesies of divers inspired Men , that there is Prescience ; and a man may also be assured , that neither is his Liberty intringed by it , nor Prescience by his Liberty . It is evident to every Man , in many cases , ( as evident as that he perceiveth at all or understandeth ) that he willeth or ●efuseth without any constraint upon his freedom . But there is great difficulty in unridling the manner of the consistence of Foreknowledg and Liberty ; because , although there be some notion , yet there is not a knowledg , fully comprehensive of the Divine Wisdom , in a finite Soul . Thus much , notwithstanding , may , with sobriety be offer'd towards the explication of this mysterious truth ; that the boundless wisdom of God who made the World , understanding the Laws and Operations of his Workmanship from the beginning to the end of them , understandeth also the nature of all appearances in all Objects in relation to the mind of Man , in every Estate wherein he is placed , and at all times , together with the dispositions of each Man's Soul , and thereby foreseeth what he will refuse or chuse , whilst he had power ( absolutely speaking ) otherwise either to elect or reject . He that should drop a piece of money , by an undiscerned hand , in the way of a man afflicted with extream poverty ; the same person might readily foresee , that the espied money would infallibly be taken up by that poor man , though he could not but understand that the Beggar had so much power over his own limbs , as not to stoop unless he pleased .

But it seemeth not worth the time and pains to reconcile to your apprehension , the Doctrins of Foreknowledg , and undetermin'd Liberty ; because this Objection is by you , proposed , in order to the amusing of other Men's Reasons rather than in justification of the Truth , For , according to your Principles , all evidence or knowledg ariseth from Objects already in being . Neither understand you this of Essence in the Sense of the Metaphysick-Schools , but of the actual presence of caused Objects .

Mr. Hobbes .

In my Opinion a a Lib. & Nec . p. 16. , Foreknowledg is Knowledg , and Knowledg depends on the existence of things known , & not they on it .

However , the Objection serveth for the incommoding of those who maintain another sort of Foreknowledg ; but the argument on which I establish my Doctrine is of another kind .

I hold a a Lib. & Ne , 72 , 73. that to be a sufficient cause , to which nothing is wanting that is needful to the producing of the effect . The same also is a necessary cause : For , if it be possible that a sufficient cause shall not bring forth the effect , then there wanteth somewhat which was needful to the producing of it , and so the Cause was not sufficient ; but if it be impossible that a sufficient Cause should not produce the Effect , then is a sufficient Cause a necessary Cause ; ( for that is said to produce an Effect necessarily , that cannot but produce it . ) Hence it is manifest , that whatsoever is produced is produced necessarily , for whatsoever is produced hath had a sufficient Cause to produce it , or else it had not been ; and therefore also , voluntary actions are necessitated .

Stud.

In the alterations made in Bodies , every sufficient is an efficient Cause , by reason that matter sufficiently moved cannot stay it self , but is wholly determin'd by foreign impulse ; which impulse also had an undefeated determination . But because I have proved the existence of an Immaterial Soul , I may affirm that all outward preparations being made , so that there remaineth nothing wanting but the Act of Volition ; the Spiritual Mind not being overcome by the sway of Matter , hath a power to abstain from acting , though perhaps it is not pleased to use it . And this we may illustrate by the Example of Abraham , whose Fire , & Wood , and Son to be a Victim , and Sacrificing-knife , were in a readiness and sufficient strength , with these , to execute the Command which God Almighty , by way of trial , had given to him : yet who can doubt that Abraham had a power , at the same time , to render these preparations useless , and to be disobedient ? For , how could those Objects and this Command conveigh a force into his Will , and thence into his Arm , to slay his Son ? though they might present him with a reason which the goodness of his Disposition would not refuse : The intention of Abraham to slay his Son was wrought by a Moral , and not a Physical , or Natural Power .

Mr. Hobbes .

Natural a a L. & N. p. 16. efficacy of Objects does determine voluntary Agents , and necessitates the Will , and consequently the Action ; but for Moral efficacy , I understand not what you mean .

Stud.

I understand by Moral efficacy , the perswa●ive power of such Motives as those which arise from fear , and love , and trust , and gratitude and especially such as arise from the meer reason of the Case ; as when a man doth therefore give Alms , meerly because he apprehends it to be more blessed to give than to receive , and not to be rid of the pang of compassion , or to obtain praise or other reward . By such Motives , the Mind is often prevail'd upon , without the force of Corporeal Motion , being wooed , and not pressed unavoidably into Consent . Of these Motives , that of Fear , may seem to have Me●hanick force ; because , that Passion is often stirred up by the horror of Objects , disturbing the natural course of the Blood . But it will be granted by your self , that the very passion of Fear doth not compell , but incline the Will : For , you acknowledg b b Leviath . p. 108. that Fear and Liberty are consistent ; as when a Man throweth his Goods into the Sea for fear the Ship should sink , he doth it nevertheless very willingly , and may refuse to do it if he will : It is therefore the action of one that was free . Seeing then the Incorporeal Soul of Man is induced by perswasion , and not compelled by Natural Motion ; you may as soon convince me , that every sufficient Man ( as we are wont to call a wealthy person ) is therefore a dispenser of his Goods , and a liberal Man ; as that the immaterial Soul is , forthwith , compell'd to act , when all things are present which are needful to the producing of the effect , and all impediments are removed .

Mr. Hobbes .

To say that an Agent a a Lib. & Nec . p. 73. in such Circumstances , can nevertheless not produce the effect , implies a contradiction , and is non-sense , being as much as to say , the Cause may be sufficient , that is to say , necessary ▪ and yet the effect shall not follow . That all b b L. & N. p. 76 , 77. Events have necessary Causes , hath been proved already , in that they have sufficient Causes . Further , let us in this place also suppose any ▪ Event never so casual , as the throwing ( for example ) Ames-Ace upon a pair of Dice , and see , if it must not have been necessary before 't was thrown . For , seeing it was thrown , it had a beginning , and consequently a sufficient cause to produce it , consisting partly in the Dice , partly in outward things , as the posture of the parts of the hand , the measure of force applied by the Caster , the posture of the parts of the Table , and the like : In sum , there was nothing wanting which was necessarily requisite to the producing of that particular Cast , & consequently the Cast was necessarily thrown ; for if it had not been thrown , there had wanted somewhat requisite to the throwing of it , and so the cause had not been sufficient .

Stud.

Here you make instance in an Event resulting from Circumstances of Bodies , and from Physical motion : in relation to which I have already granted , that a sufficient is an efficient Cause ; and declar'd the reason of it ; and how it toucheth not the present business . But by this last Answer I begin to understand that you obtrude a Sophism upon me , instead of a real Argument . For , whilst you say , that sufficient is the same which necessary , and that if the Cast had not been thrown , there was something wanting ; you include , in your sufficient Cause , when you speak of Man , the very act of Volition , besides all the furniture prepared for that act : And then your meaning amounts to this , that when there is each thing needful , and no impediment , and also a Will to act , the effect followeth . But here you beg the Question , which is this ; Whether , all things requisite to action being present , the will and act of Volition excepted , the Soul hath not a power to forbear that Act ? and whilst you suppose a removal of impediments , and the presence of all things necessary , and the act of the Will also ; and then say , the Cause is sufficient and efficient too , you say no more , than that a Man produceth necessarily , an effect , whilst he produceth it ; which indeed is a truth , ( for he cannot act and not act at the same time ) but in the present Controversie it is an egregious Impertinence . For , the Necessity which you speak of , is not in the Will it self , or in the Effect ; but in that consequence which the mind createth , by supposing that the Will complieth with the means , and that , whilst it chuseth , it cannot but chuse . Wherefore this fallacy is like to theirs , who say , the Will is necessarily determin'd by the last act of the Understanding , meaning , because it is the last : they suppose the last act , and that the Will closeth with the Understanding , and then they say , it followeth upon necessity : which is no more than to affirm , that there is nothing later than the last . And if I am not impos'd upon by my memory , you somewhere argue a a Leviath . c. 6. p. 2● . , that the Will is the last appetite in deliberating ; and that therefore , though we say in common Discourse , A man had once a will to do a thing , that nevertheles he forbears to do ; yet that is not properly a will , because the action depends not of it , but of the la●t inclination or appetite . You suppose the Will to be the last Inclination , and that there●ore the Action depends upon it , because it is the last ; and then you call it sufficient and necessary , when you have made it to be such ; not in its own nature , but by the supposition framed in your own brain . And thus you have made a great noise and kackling about Sufficient and Efficient , whilst there is nothing here said by you , which is not as insipid as the white of an Egg.

But of that Necessity which is said to compell the Will of Man , enough ; let ●s consider that Law which obligeth it , though not by force to action , yet upon default , to punishment .

And that we may proceed in order , let our beginning be made at

Our Seventh Head , The Law of Nature , that inward Law , in relation to which each Man is a Magistrate to himself , erecting a Tribunal in his own Breast .

Mr. Hobbes .

There is a a Leviath . c. 14. p. 64. right , and also , a Law of Nature . The Right of Nature , is the Liberty each Man hath , to use his own power as he will himself , for the preservation of his own nature , that is to say , of his own life ; and consequently of doing any thing , which in his own judgment , and reason , he shall conceive to be the aptest means thereunto . — The Law of Nature is a precept , or general Rule , found out by Reason , by which a Man is forbidden to do that which is destructive of his life , or taketh away the means of preserving the same ; and to omit , that , by which he thinketh , it may be lest preserved , — the sum of the Right of the right of Nature , is , by all means we can to defend our selves : This is b b De Cive . c. 1. p. 11. Iuris naturalis fundamentum primum est , ut quisque vitum & membra sua , quantum potest tueatur . the first foundation of Natural Right .

Stud.

The distinction betwixt the Right , and the Law of Nature , is , with good reason , to be admitted . But you ought not to challenge it * * Leviat : p. 64. they that speak of this Subject use to con●ound Ius and Lex . to your self , seeing it is expressly noted by divers ancient Authors , and in particular , by Laurentius Valla c c Lauren. Vall. Elegant . l. 4. c. 48. p. . That which you add , seemeth as false as the other is ancient . For the right dictate of Natural Reason obliging Man ( not yet suppos'd a Member of the great Community ) to an orderly behaviour towards God , and his Parents , as also towards his own Soul and Body , in cases which concern , and which concern not , life & death , is the Law of Nature .

Mr. Hobbes .

The Dictates of Reason [ concerning Vice and Virtue a a Lev c. 15 p. 80. lin. 8 &c. Men b b Ibid. line 17 , &c. use to call by the name of Laws , but improperly : for they are but Conclusions , or Theorems , concerning what conduceth to the conservation , and defence of themselves ; whereas Law properly is the word of him , who by Right hath command over others .

Stud.

These Dictates being the Natural Operations of our Minds , the Being , and undepraved condition of which in right reasoning , we owe to God ; we cannot but esteem them as the voice of God within us , and consequently Law : wherefore St. Paul calleth the Rule of Natural Conscience amongst the Gentiles , the Law written in their Hearts . — But whence doth it come to pass , that self-interest is laid by you as the foundation-stone of the Law of Nature ? in such sort , that nothing is unlawful which conduceth to such preservation . For , it is commonly taught amongst us , that many things are condemn'd by the light of Reason ; and that we ought not to do evil that good may come on 't ; but prefer the Law of God in nature before private Utility ; it being the truest Self-interest to lose the present secular advantage , for the future recompence of such as , with peril , obey God .

Mr. Hobbes .

The Reasons of my Opinion are manifest . Because it is natural for Man to avoid pain c c De Cive . p. 11. fertur unusquisque &c. and pursue utility ; and because in the state of Nature , there is nothing unlawful against others . For d d Leviath . c. 13 p. 62. the desires , and other passions of Man , are in themselves no sin : no more are the actions that proceed from those Passions , 'till they know a Law that forbids them : which , till Laws be made , they cannot know : nor can any Law be made , 'till they have agreed upon the person that shall make it .

Stud.

Unless you explain your self concerning this state of Nature which you speak of , the way of our proceeding will be darkned by words .

Mr. Hobbes .

The natural condition of Mankind may be thus explained .

Nature hath made Men so equal a a Lev. c. 13 p. 60 , to 63. more at large . in the faculties of Body and Mind ; as that , when all is reckoned together , the difference between Man and M●n , is not so considerable , as that one man can thereupon claim to himself any benefit to which another may not pretend as well as he .

From this equality of ability , ariseth equality of hope in the attaining of our ends . And therefore if any two Men , desire the same thing , which nevertheless they cannot both enjoy , they become Enemies ; and in the way to their end ( which is principally their own conservation , and sometimes their Delectation only ) endeavour to destroy or subdue one another . Whereupon some are invited to invade others , and from others may fear the like invasion .

From equality of ability , competition ariseth fomented by equality of hope ; and from thence diffidence of one another : And from this diffidence attended with desire of glory in conquering , there ariseth a war of every Man against every Man .

And therefore , whatsoever is consequent to a time of War , where every Man is enemy to every Man ; the same is consequent to the time wherein men live without other security , than what their own strength , and their own inven●ion shall furnish them withal . In such condition , there is no place for industry ; because the fruit thereof is uncertain ; and consequently no culture of the earth , no Navigation , nor use of the Commodities that may be imported by Sea ; no commodious bu●ding ; no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force ; no knowledg of the face of the earth ; no account o● time , no Arts ; no Letters ; no Society ; and , which is worst of all , continual fear , and danger of violent death ; and the life of man , solitary , poor , nasty , brutish , and short .

To this War of every Man against every Man , this also is consequent . That nothing can be unjust . The notions of Right and wrong , justice and injustice have there no place . Where there is no common power , there is no Law ; wh●●● no Law , no Injustice . Force and Fraud , are in war the two Cardinal Virtues . Justice and Injustice are none of the Faculties , neither of the Body , nor Mind . I● they were , they might be in a Man that were alone in the World , as well as his Senses , and Passions . They are Qualities , that relate to Men in Society , not in Solitude . It is consequent also to the same condition , that there be no propriety , no dominion , no Min● and Thine distinct ; but only , that to be every Man 's that he can get ; and for so long as he can keep it .

And this is the ill condition , which Man by meer nature is actually placed in ; though with a possibility to come out of it : consisting partly in the Passions , partly in his Reason .

The Passions that encline men to peace , are , fear of death ; desire of such things as are necessary to commodious living ; & a hope by their industry to obtain them . And Reason suggesteth convenient Articles of Peace , upon which Men may be drawn to agreement . These Articles , are they , which otherwise are called the Laws of Nature .

Stud.

It is a very absurd and unsecure course to lay the ground-work of all civil Polity and formed Religion , upon such a supposed state of Nature , as hath no firmer support than the contrivance of your own fancy . Let Ptolemy endeavour a Solution of those appearances which arise from the heavenly Bodies , by one sort of Scheme ; and Tycho by another , and Copernicus by a third ; and let Des-Cartes attempt a fourth ; for the declaring , not only in what manner , but by what Efficient Cause , the Starrs may move ; for thus far the interests of Men remain secure , not being minded by such remote Models and Hypotheses . But when the Temporal and Eternal safety of Mankind is concerned ( as in the Doctrines of Civil and Moral , and Christian Philosophy ) then are Hypotheses , framed by imagination , and not by reason assisted with Memory touching the passed state of the World , as exceedingly dangerous as they are absurd . Wherefore , such persons who trouble the World with fancied Schemes and Models of Poli●y , in Oceana's and Leviathan's , ought to have in their Minds an usual saying of the most excellent Lord Bacon concerning a Philosophy advanced upon the History of Nature . That a a Dr. Rs. Pref. to Sir F. B. nat. Hist. such a work is the World as God made it , and not as Men have made it : for that it hath nothing of Imagination .

The faithful Records of time give us another account of the Origin of Nations ; and common Sense , whereby one apprehends in another's birth , the manner of his own , doth sufficiently instruct us in this truth , that we are born , and grow up under Government ; Our Parents being a a Leviath . c. 22. p. 121 before the Institution of Commonwealth , absolute Soveraigns in their own Families : And as Hicrocles speaketh , b b 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Gods upon Earth . Wherefore Cicero , discoursing of the many Degrees of the Society of Men , calleth c c Cicero de Offic. l. 1. S. 17. op p. 1217. Principium urbis & quasi Seminarium Reipublicae . Wedlock the beginning of a City ; and , as it were , the Seminary of a Kingdom ▪ So that , to talk of such a state of nature as supposeth an Independency of one person upon another , is to lay aside not only the History of Moses , but also of Experience , which teacheth that we are born Infants , ( of Parents , for that reason , to be obey'd ) , and to put some such cheat upon the World , as Nurses are wont , in sport , to put upon unwary Children , when they tell them , they started up out of the Parsley-bed . And verily some such odd conceit is to be suspected in that Man who says , that all is Matter , and by consequence , that Mankind arose , at first , out of the fortuitous Concretions of it . Epicurus therefore in sequel of that doctrine of his , that all things were produced by atoms , explained the birth of Man , by supposing certain swelling bags or wombs upon the earth , which brake at last , and let forth Infants d d ●ucret . Crescebant uteri terrae radicibus apti , &c. nourished by her Juice , clothed by her Vapours , provided of a bed in the soft grass : and he also taught that in the beginning ( though he knew not when ) Men wander'd about like Beasts , and every one was for himself , and that meerly to secure themselves , they combin'd into Societies ; and that those Societies were formed by Pacts and Covenants , and that from those Covenants sprang good and evil , just and unjust . For , such a Romance is to be read , at large , in his Compurgator , Gassendus , a a Gassend . Phil. Epi● . Synt. c. 26. de Orig. Juris , p 238 , 239. who subjoyneth no Essay of confutation .

Mr. Hobbes .

It may b b Leviath . c. 13. p. 63. peradventure be thought , there was never such a time , nor condition of War , as this now described ; and I believe it was never generally so , over all the World : But there are many places where they live so now . For , the Savage People in many places of America , except the Government of small Families , the concord whereof dependeth on Natural Lust , have no Government at all , and live at this day in a brutish manner .

Stud

I am sorry that so much barbarousness being charged upon Mankind , so little of the imputation can be fairly taken off Yet that the condition of human nature is not so very rude as you seem to represent it , appeareth from many passages in undoubted Story . Iustin c c Iust. Hist. l. 2 : p. 18 , 19. , in his Epitom of Trogus Pompeius , describeth the ancient Scythians in such a manner , that their Behaviour seemeth to upbraid those People , who call themselves , The Civilized parts of the World . By him we are informed , That they had neither Houses , nor Enclosures of ground , but wander'd with their Cattel in solitary and untilled Desarts ; That Justice had honour derived , to it , not from positive Law , but from the good natures of the People . That no man was more odious , amongst them than the Invader of such things as were occupied by another . In consideration of which inbred civility , the Historian wisheth that the other Nations of the World were followers of the Scythick Moderation ; after which , he thus concludeth . It may seem a matter fit to be admired , that Nature should bestow that upon the Scythians , which the Graecians thems●lves , though long instructed by the Doctrines and Precepts of Law-givers and Philosophers , have not attain'd to : and that formed manners should be excelled by uneducated Barbarity .

But , let it be supposed that many brutish Families in America ( in whose stead you might have rather mentioned the wild Arabes a a See Martyr . Legat. Babylon . l. 3. p. 81. , are so many dens of Robbers , and live by such prey as their power and wildness can provide for them . Yet by this Instance , because it is made in Families , where Government has place , you rather overthrow than prove your supposed state of Nature . Wherefore , in a note added , upon second thoughts , to your Book de Cive b b De Cive . c. 1. p. 14. in order to a Solution of this Argument [ that the Son killing his Parent , in the state of Nature , acteth unjustly ] you subjoin an Answer to this effect A man cannot be understood to be a son in the meer state of Nature , seeing as soon as he is born he is under the lawful c c Ibid. Potestas , not potentia . Power and Government of them , to whom he oweth his conservation ; to wit , of his Mother or Father , or to him who affords him Provisions of common life .

It is further to be marked , that one Family , as it stands separated from another , is as one Kingdom divided from the Territories of a Neighbouring Monarch . If therefore the state of Nature remaineth in a Family not depending upon another Family , in places where there is no common Government ; then all Kingdoms which have not made Leagues with one another , are , at this day , in the same state . Whereas they rather are in a state of defence dictated by prudence ; and , as you say , in the posture a a Leviath . p. 63. of Gladiators , having their swords pointing , and their Eyes fixed on one another , than in a state of War , prompted by pride and insati●ble ambition . And therefore no affront being offered to a foreign Prince before his Invasion , he is esteem'd both injurious and unjust , whilst for no other reason than his greedy Will , he thrusts inoffensive people out of ancient possession . I know you esteem all distinct Kingdoms in a state of War in relation to each other b b See Lev : p. 110. , and that therefore they have a right , if they have a Power of invading : but he that consults Grotius , in his Book de jure belli & Pacis ( designed chiefly c c Vide Grotij Prolegom . to set forth the Rights , not of Domestick , but Formsick War ) will not be much of your opinion ; neither will he , easily , be reconcil'd to the Practice of the Romans , in Petronius Arbiter , d d Si qua foret tellus quae fulvum mitt●●●t aurum bos●is erat . ( a Practice to which that of the Spaniards is akin ) , who made foreign Nations to be Enemies , as Princes sometimes make their Subjects , Traytors ; for the sake of their Riches .

Mr. Hobbes .

I confess e e Lev. c. 20 p. 105. that a great Family , if it be not part of some Commonwealth , is of it self , as to the Rights of Soveraignty , a little Monarchy : whether that Family consist of a Man and his Children ; or of a Man and his Servants ; or of a Man and his Children , and Servants together , wherein the Father or Master is the Soveraign . But yet a Family is not properly a Commonwealth ; unless it be of that power by its own number , or by other opportunities , as not to be subdued without the hazard of War .

Stud.

In those Places , where there is no common Government ( as of late amongst the West - Arabes , 'till their acceptance of Muley Arsheid , first for their General , and then their King ) a Family may be called a small Kingdom , notwithstanding the meanness of its Power ; because it can , as well , secure it self , against the assaults of another Family , as one Kingdom can withstand the Opposition of another . For , we compare Family to Family , and not to a vast Empire , against whose mighty numbers , it is in vain to make resistance : For , if want of strength doth render a Family no Commonwealth , than by the same reason , the Republicks of Athens , Corinth , Lacedaemon , and the rest , were properly no Republicks , because they were but so many weak and little Members , compar'd to the vast Body of the Graecian Empire .

But , further : Were every man supposed loose , even from the yoke of Paternal Government , yet in such a state , there would be place , for the Natural Laws of good and evil .

For , first , There is in Mankind , an ability of Soul to ascend unto the knowledg of the first invisible Cause a a De Cive . c. 14. pag. 250. by the effects of his Power , and Wisdom , and Goodness , which are conspicuous in all the parts of his Creation . I say , an ability to know , not an actual acknowledgment , of the Being of a God . For the Acrothoitae are said , by Theophrasius a a Ap. Sim. plic . Com. in Epictet . Ench. pag. 200. Ed. Cant. , to have been a Nation of Atheists ; as also to have been swallow'd up by the gaping Earth ; undergoing a Judgment worthy that God whom their Imaginations banish'd out of the World . If , then , there be such ability in the Mind of Man , he is capable of sinning by himself , in the secretest retirement from the Societies and Laws of his Fellow-creatures ▪ either by the supiness of his mind in being secure in Atheism , for want of exerting those Powers , by exercise , which God hath implanted in him ; or , by the ingratitude of his mind , by want of Love and Thankfulness to God , whom in speculation he confesseth to exist ; the notion of a Deity including that of a Benefactor .

Mr. H.

I must acknowledg b b De Cive . c. 1. p● 13. in Annot. , that it is not impossible , in the state of Nature , to sin against God .

Stud.

A man may also , in that state , fin , by being injurious to himself .

Mr Hobb .

Neither is that denied , because c c De Cive . p. 14. hec may pretend that to be for his preservation , which neither is so , nor is so judged by himself .

Stud.

But he may , likewise , sin , with reference to himself in matters wherein no prejudice accrueth to his health , or outward safety . The Instance may be made in Buggery with a Bea●● , which seemeth to be a sin against the order o● God in Nature . This monstrous Indecency , this detestable and abhominable Vice ( as the Statute calls it ) is , by our Law d d 25 Hen. 8. c. 6.5 . Eliz. c. 17. , made Felony without Clergy ; and this , surely , in regard it is rather a sin against Nature than Commonwealth ; it being less noxious to Society , to humble , than to kill the owners beast , the latter of which is but a tre●pass .

Lastly , In relation to ot●ers , I cannot but judg , that one man espying another , and not discerni●g in him any tokens of mischief , but rather of submission ; if being thus secure & unassaulted , he rusheth upon him , & so , to display his power , and please his tyrannous mind bereave●h him of life ; he is a murd●rer , in the account of God & Man . The reason seemeth unst●ained & cogent . For there is no such neer propriety to a man in any possession as in that of life ; which a man , as to this state , can no more forego , then he can part with himself : neither can the Right be more confirmed to him than his own Pe●●●nality . Wherefore , in no condition of Mankind , can it be forfeited but by his own default or consent . But in meer self defence there 's no murther , because one life being apparently in hazard , it is reason that the assaulted man should esteem his own more dearly than his Enemy's . It is e●sie to understand on which side to act , when it is come to this pass that ( as the Italians say of War a a Cibisogna essere spet●atori dell' altrui morte , O spettacolo delta nostra . , We must either be spectators of other me●s deaths , or spectacles of our own .

Moreover , it appeare●h , unto me , not altogether improbable , that in this feigned state of nature , unjust robbery may have place . For , in this community there being sufficient portions both for the necessity & convenience , of all men ; if one shall intrude into the possessi●n of another who is contented with a modest share , being moved only by ambition & wantonness of mind ; he seemeth to be no other than an unrighteous aggresso● . For all men being , by you , supposed of equal righ● ▪ the advantage of pre-occupancy on the one sid● , do's turn the scale , if natural justice holds the ballance : For it is in Law , an old maxim , In pari jure , melior est conditio Possidentis . Wherefore , if any person endeavours , by such unnatural practises , as I have mention'd , to encrease his outward safety , or brutish delight , he , in truth , destroyeth by his iniquity more of himself than he can preserve by his ambition and lust . And he may be resembled to a rash Seaman , who out of presumed pleasure in swimming , throws himself headlong into a boisterous Sea ; temporal delight and preservation by sin , being the ready way to bottomless ruin .

By what hath been said , I am induced to believe , that there is not only iniquity , but injustice too , in a meer state of Nature ; although neither of them be capable of such aggravations , or are extended to so many Instances , as in that state , where men live under Positive Commands . For , to make Instance , not in the lower restraints of fishing , fowling , hunting ; but in the more considerable case of promiscuous mixtures ; such practice seemeth not so much condemned by the Law of Nature , as by Custom , & the commands of Moses ▪ & Christ , & Christian Magistrates , and heathen Powers . For the most holy God would never have begun the World by one Man and Woman , whose Posterity must needs be propagated by the mixtures of their Sons & D●ughters , if what we call Incest , had been inconsistent with any immutable Law of Reason & Nature . Neither would ●e have allowed the Patriarchs in Polygamy , if it had been in truth an absolute evil ; and not rather , in some Circumstances of time and place , and persons , fit and convenient . Neither is there , in these matters , any consent of Nations , who have no other instructor besides Nature : for , the Garamantici married not ; but engendred as the Monsters at the Springs of Africa . And S●leucus gave his own Wife to his son Antiochus , & then passed it into a Law . And Socrates the great pretender to Moral Prudence , esteemed it a civility to his Friend to permit his wife to enter into his imbraces . Wherefore St. Paul affirming that the taking of the Father's wife , was a For●ication not once named amongst the Gentiles , is to be understood of those Heathens whose manners & conversations he had observed in his Travels . And Aelian's Reading or Memory was but narrow , when a a Ael●l . 6. var. Hist. ap. Grot. de Iur. bel . & pa. p. 464. in contemplation of the victorious Sicy●●ians deflouring the Pollenaearian Virgins , he cried out , These Practices , by the gods of Graecia , are very cruel , and , as far as I remember , not approved of by the veriest Barbarians .

And , as I think , it must be granted to you , that such consent of Nations , as may seem to argue a common principle , whence it is derived ; is not easily , & in many cases , found by those who look beyond the usages of Europe , & the Colonies planted by the Europ●ans . For Pagans ( unless it be in the acknowledgment of God , in which most agree ) do infinitly differ , not only from Jews & Christians , but from one another , & ●rom their very selves also in process of time . And those who liv'd but an hundred years ago , before the strange improvement of Navigation and Merchandize , could understand but little of the manners of distant Nations ; the Traffick being then in a few Port-Towns which held littl● Commerce with the Inland-inhabitants at any remoteness . Yet is there not hence to be taken such licentious advantage , as if there were no Law of Nature . For how various soever the opinions and customs of several Nations are ; in this , they all agree , that good is to be done , and evil to be shunned : which were a vain determination , if it never descended from a general sense , to particularness of direction , which is the immediate rule of manners : for it is this or that good which is to be done , and good in general is an unpracticable notion . Again , there may be eternal Laws of good and evil , though all consent not in them ; because the understanding and manners of men , are depraved and debauch'd by ●●stom , and the several arts of our common Enemy ; in●omuch that divers appear to be men rather in shape and speech , than by severe Reason the law & rule of Life . And here , let it be noted also , that such virtues as a man out of society cannot practise , as , some sorts of justice , gratitude , modesty , and mercy , are laws eternal in the reason of them , because it can never come to pass that , with advantage to society , they may be banish'd out of a Common-wealth . And indeed all the Laws of nature , which relate to certain states , though alterable in the alteration of Circumstances , yet , in the reasons of them , they are everlasting : And Reason that bids a man obey his Father , bids him in some cases , obey not Man but God : and yet the reason is unchangable on which both depend ; to wit , of allegiance to the higher Authority .

Mr. Hobbes .

If , now , it were agree'd upon , amongst men , what right Reason is , the controversie would be immediately ended . Reason a a Leviath . p. 18 , 19. it self is always right reason — . But no one mans reason , nor the reason of any one number of men , makes the certainty : But the Reason of some Arbitrator , or Judg , to whose sentence men will stand : When men that think themselvs wiser than all others , clamor & demand right Reason for Judg ; they seek no more , but that things should be determin'd , by no other me●s reason , but their own : and this is as intolerable in the society of men , as it is in play after trump is turned , to use for trump on every occasion , that suit whereof they have most in their hand . For they do nothing else , that will have every of their passions , as it comes to bear sway in them , to be taken for right reason , and that in their own controversies : bewraying their want of right reason by the claim they lay to it b b See L●v. p. 79 , 80. .

Stud.

I cannot but say that prejudice & self-interest doth blind the understanding , and cause it to put evil for good ; & humor , & education , & profit , for reason ; and that an unconcerned Judg decideth a difference , to the commodity not only of peace , but of truth and right . But●seeing it is supposed that an Arbitrator can pronounce such a righteous sentence ; it followeth that he hath some standing Rule whereby to guide his judgment . This is not always the b●ho●f of society ; but it may be known , and it may oblige a man considered by himself , and it concerneth the Hermite , and the shipwra●kt person , who is unfortunately cast upon an uninhabited Island .

Now this dictate of right Reason , which , ●ogether with the superadded act of Conscience , is the Law of Nature , consisteth in that moral congruity or proportion which is betwixt the action ( of mind , or ●ongue , or hand ) , and the object , considered relatively in their proper circumstances . That ou● minds can compare the act & object , or discern whether they are congrous or incongruous , equal or unequal , is plain enough by the daily operations of our Faculties ; the truth of which none but a professed Sceptick , calleth in question ; being mov'd thereto , rather by capricious humor , than strength of his argument , the reason of which is destroy'd by his very Hypothesis , that , Nothing is certain . And he that calleth ou● Faculties into question , doth raze the foundations of the Mathematicks as well as of moral doctrine , and leaves no more place for the foot of Archimedes , than of Socrates . For it is as manifest by the comparative operations of our minds , that hatred ( for instance ) and disrespect , towards that Being on which we depend for what we are and have is an ununiform , incongruous , unequal , & disproportion'd carriage , as that a crooked line is unequal to a straight one laying between the same terms .

The like may be said of killing an innocent man whom we know to have bin such , and whose continuance in integrity we suspect not ; and of the abusing a benefactor . And he that justifieth such returns , may with equal truth & reason , maintain , that the shortest Garment of David is well proportion'd to the properest stat●re of Saul or Goliah ▪ Now to this perception of moral congruity betwixt the action and the object , considered in their proper circumstances in relation to mens manners , is added an act of conscience in all those who attend to the Laws of their Nature , as rules imprinted in them by the Governour of the World , who made them what they are ; & consequently as the rules of his will in such manner declared to them : and from thence what is reasonable passeth into a Law . And as the mind of man perceiveth this proportion , or conformity , greater or less , he knoweth in some sort the measure of hi● obligation . And when he perceiveth the incongruity to be very little , he concludeth it to be a counsel , rather than a law ; yet will he be moved by that which Ovid calleth , decor Recti , if he be endued with a generous nature .

From hence it is manifest , that some primary rules of good and evil , carry a reason with them so immutable , in the etern●l connexion of their terms , that with modesty enough , we may use , concerning them , that boast of Ovid , touching his ow● works ; affirming , that neither the rage of Iupiter , nor the most devouring fire , or War , nor what consumeth more than they both , even Time it self , can abolish and destroy them . And this was the meaning of those in Aristotle a a Aristo● . de mor. l. 5 c. 10. p. 84 , who believed that what was natural was immoveable , and of the same force in ●ll places , as fire burneth here & also in Persia. And this they mean , who affirm , that God cannot lie , or deny , or hate himself , or approve of him that hateth him , or adoreth him contrary to his declared will ; and that he cannot torture a man , supposed innocent , with never-ceasing misery .

Mr. Hobbes .

There is no rule which God may not most justly break , because he i● Almighty . This I know b b Liber . & Nec . p. 24. God cannot sin , because his doing a thing makes it just , and consequently no sin . Power c c Ib. p. 22. irresi●tible justifieth all actions really and properly , in whomsoever , it be found ; less power does not : ● and because such Power is in God only , he must needs be just in all his actions , and we who , not comprehending his Counsels , call him to the Bar ▪ commit injustice in it . And I kn●w that d d Ib. p. 42. God may afflict by a right derived from his Omnipotence , though sin were not .

Stud.

Far be it from me to say , that God can be suppos'd to sin , because there is no Lord superior to him : but , That he would break the rule of eternal Reason , if he should let his power loose , and do whatsoever might be done , whether with agreeableness or contradiction to his most excellent Nature : thous●nds have thought it , neither can they perswade themselves into another belief . It is true that God might ▪ temporally , have afflicted or annihilated man if he had lived in a state of uprightness and integrity . For , there is strict justice observed in this case , whilst God freely taketh away what he freely gave , or sendeth a calamity to which life is prefer'd by the reasonable choice of man . But to afflict a man extreamly and eternally without the intervention of any sin , is to send a torment which doth infinitely outweigh the good of naked existence , and therefore is , by Curcell●us e e Curcell . de Iure Dei in Creat . innocent . p. 5. &c. and divers others of that School , esteem'd inconsistent with that Justice which is in●eparable ●rom the first Cause : It being absurd to think that such Justice is not a perfection ; and as absurd to imagin that there should be such a perfection in a created Soul , and not in the self-originated Mind . Therefore Chrysippus , and the Stoicks did make God the Original of Right . And some f f Ap. Grot. de Iu. bel . in Prolog . have derived Ius from Iupiter . And Abraham , the Friend of God , made this expostulation , for which he had no rebuke ▪ Wilt thou destroy the Righteous with the Wicked ? And again , this also , Shall not the Iudg of all the Earth do Right ? An Agent , armed with Power irresistible , though he cannot be withstood in that action of his which might produceth , yet may he be justly condemned for unreasonable proceedings . A man who being bound hand and foot , has a fatal knife put to his throat ( in which case the Power is irresistible in respect of his body , as much as if it were omnipotence ) such a one cannot help himself ; but he may judge without either falshood or partiality , that if in that manner he is butchered , without regard to any crime , the practice is both cowardly and unmerciful . But further , if the Deity justifieth all by power , and can do rightly whatsoever may be done by Omnipotence ( and for that reason ; ) then all the Arguments of the Christian Apologists against the Gentiles ( the barbarous and lascivious practices of whose supposed Gods they judged enough to overthrow their Divinity , and therefore represented at large their immoralities ) were weak and unconvincing : for there was room of replying , that such manners were not to be reprov'd , because the powers above them could so behave themselves without controul . To conclude , whilst by the absolute Soveraignty of God , you affront his other Attributes , you set up an omnipotent Devil in a worse sense then Manes the Persian , who , being seduced by the Fable of his Country , concerning Orimaza and Areimanius , asserted a supreme evil ; but did not , directly , exclude the supreme good out of the world . See , then , how you reproach the Author of all good , by such an imputation of arbitrary Government , and of imperious will which standeth for a Reason ; whereby you take away the most ingenious motive to Religion , Love and Reverence , produced by a conception of God as one who a a See Hum. Nat. p. 89. hath the power to do unto us both good and hurt , but not the will to do us hurt . Remember , also , that the Atheists , in the Book of Wisdom b b Wisd. 2 . 2-3 10.11 , who taught after this manner , That the soul was a little spark in the moving of the heart , said likewise , Let us oppress the poor righteous man , let us not spare the widow , nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged . Let our strength be the Law of Iustice ; for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth . Thus want of reason is betray'd by those bold Writers , who slacken the laws of good and evil .

Mr. Hobbes .

Notwithstanding all this clamour , you may finde in my own Books , divers laws of Nature c c ●ee de Civ● . c. 2-3 . p. 18 , 36. and Lev. c. 14 , 15. p. 64 , &c. ( no fewer then nineteen d d Lev. p 78 ) set down , and dignified with the Epithet of eternal e e Lev. p. 79 .

Stud.

You have , indeed , mention'd certain natural Laws ; but you have not derived them from the reason and equity of their Nature , but from self-preservation ; and call'd them eternal , not from the unalterable connexion of the terms , but because they always conduce ( in your opinion ) to the temporal peace and safety of single persons : which if it may , at any time be advanced by the violation of such Laws ( as is manifest in every Usurpers breach of Faith and Love ) they can not oblige in that instance , because the Reason of them ( such a Reason as you have imagined ) is then taken away .

And doubless upon this account , the Fundamentals of your Policy are Hay and Stubble , and apter to set all things into a blaze , then to support Government , and ( what we are in the eighth Place to discuss ) the Laws of Society . For , if men be lawless in a state of Nature , and for the meer sake of temporal security , do enter into Covenants , and are obliged to Justice , and Modesty , and Gratitude , and other suchlike sociable Vertues , onely because they conduce to our peace , and to the keeping of us fro● the deplorable condition of a War of every man against every man ; then when any subject shall have fair hopes of advancing himself by treading down Authority , and trampling upon the Laws in a prosperous Rebellion ; what is it , according to your Principles , which can oblige him to refuse the opportunity ? If it be said that one Covenant is this , that we must keep the rest ; it will be again inquired , what Law engageth men to keep that Pact , seeing there is no Law of more ancient descent , unless it be that of self-preservation ? for the sake of which ( as it includeth not meer safety , but delight also , as you have stated it a a Lev. p. 61. and display of Power ) we suppose the Covenants to be broken . So that , without the obligation laid upon us by Fedility ( the Law of God Almighty in our nature ) antecedent to all humane Covenants ; such Pacts will become but so many loose materials , without the main binder , in the fence of the Common-wealth , which will , therefore , be trodden down , or broken through , by every herd of unruly men . Men are apt to violate what they esteem most just and sacred , for the sake of Reigning ; and they will be , much more , encouraged to break all Oaths of Duty and Allegiance , when they once believe , that their ascent into the Throne , and Possession of the Supreme Power , like the coming of the reputed Heir unto the Crown ▪ as in the case of Henry the Seventh a a Lord Bacon in H. 7. p. 13. , doth immediately clear a man of all former Attaindors .

Mr. Hobbes .

This specious b b Lev. p. 73 Reasoning is , nevertheless , false : For when a man doth a thing , which , notwithstanding any thing can be foreseen , and reckoned on , tendeth to his own destruction , howsoever some accident , which he could not expect , arriving , may turn it to his benefit ; yet such events do not make it reasonably or wisely done — As for the instance of attaining Soveraignty by Rebellion ; it is manifest , that though the event follow , yet because it cannot reasonably be expected , but rather the contrary ; and because by gaining it so , others are taught to gain the same in like manner , the attempt thereof is against Reason . Justice therefore , that is to say , keeping of Covenant , is a rule of Reason , by which we are forbidden to do any thing destructive to our life ; and consequently a law of Nature .

Stud.

This then is the Doctrine of Politics , in which you so much applaud your self ; and of the same strain with the pernicious Book , entituled , Natures Dowry a a 1652. P. 31. cited by the Learned A. of the F. D. in Append. p. 123 ▪ Those Christians who lived under the Heathenish Emperours , but wanted strength to defend themselves , were by that Precept ( Rom. 13.1 . ) obliged to sit still and to endeavour nothing against those that had the sword in their hands , &c. , printed the year after the Leviathan : That Rebellion is not iniquity , if , upon probable grounds , it becomes prosperous : That he who usurps not like a Politician , is therefore a Villain , because he is a Fool : That all the Usurpers in the World stepping up into the Throne , by means likely to further their ascent , pursue the Fundamental Law of Nature , and are rightful and undoubted Soveraigns : That the Earl of Essex , in the Reign of Q. Elizabeth ( who , after some stain of fame in Ireland , and in the days of a popular Queen , and in a time when he had potent enemies for strength and head-piece , such as Cecil and Sir Walter Rawleigh , appear'd with a small company , upon presumption of the Queens love in case he should miscarry , and upon hopes of the multitude not formed to his purpose by confederacie ) was a Rebel and a Traytor , because he was a weak and unfortunate Politician ; but that Oliver ( who was led on by success to things he never dreamt of in the days of his Poverty , ) and saw the power of the King declining ; and was as sure of being Protector , as a King can be ( upon your grounds ) of remaining Soveraign , by the inclination of the Souldiery , and possession of the Militia ; and therefore usurp'd upon as sure foundations of self-interest , as the nature of Civil Affairs admitteth of ) was , by the direct consequence of your opinion , a lawful Prince , a man of inestimable merit and renown , worthy the Government of thrice three Kingdoms , of dying in his bed , and of a Fame too wide to be contain'd betwixt the Deucalidonian and Brittish Ocean . No , no , there are words more agreeable to his merit , and they have nothing Poetick in them besides the genuine strain of verse a a Mr. Cowley in his Disc. of O. C. p. 59. . Curst be the man ( what do I wish ? as though The wretch already were not so ; But curst on let him be ) who thinks it brave And great , his Country to enslave ; Who seeks to overpoise alone The Balance of a Nation , Against the whole but naked State ; Who in his own light scale makes up with Arms the weight .

Mr. Hobbes .

I have written concerning Oliver b b ● . Consid. p. 12. , that his Titles and actions were equally unjust .

Stud.

This you wrote indeed , but since the return of his Sacred Majesty , who , if men had pursu'd your destructive Principles , and judg'd his Right to have ceased with his Power , had for ever been destitute of any other Throne , then what had been erected in the hearts of the Loyal . Mr. White , also , the part-boyl'd Romanist , who is honour'd with the Title of , Most Learned , in the scurrilous Preface to your Book of Fate , declar'd in English , in an unhappy time , c c Th. White of Obed. and Govern. 17. ground p. 144. &c. to 156. second Edit. published London 1655. that a dispossessed Prince ought neither to be desired , nor to endeavour to return , if the people think themselves to be well , and their Trade and Employment be undisturb'd . And he addeth also ; Who can answer they shall be better by the return of the dispossessed party ? Surely , in common presumption , the gainer is like to defend them better then he who lost it . Certainly for this sentence , at such a time published to this Nation , if for no other cause , his Books ought to be burnt in England , as well as some of them have been condemned at Rome ; unless we suppose the crabbedness of the stile , and the obscureness and weakness of the Reasoning in them , may tempt the Author , when better informed , to save Authority the labour of it . Dr. Baily likewise , revolting from the Church of England , forsook his Loyalty at the same time , and caressed Oliver , and hop'd that , by his means , the Pope might come again , and set his Imperial feet upon the neck of English Princes : For he concludes his Legend a a O. B. life of Bishop Fisher , published the same year with Mr. Whites Book London , p. 260 , &c. of the Bishop of Rochester , after this manner .

Thus we see Gods Justice in the destruction of the Churches Enemies ; ( meaning Thomas Cromwel , Vicar-General of the Church under Henry the eighth , and spoiler of Religious Houses ) : who knows but that he may help her to such Friends , though not such as may restore her own Jewels , yet such as may heal her of her wounds ? And who knows but that it may be effected by the same name ? Oliva vera is not so hard to be construed Oliverus , as that it may not be believed , that a Prophet rather then an Herald , gave the common Father of Christendom , the now Pope of Rome , Innocent the Tenth ) such Ensignes of his Nobility ( viz. a Dove holding an Olive-branch in her mouth ) since it falls short in nothing of being both a Prophecy and fulfilled , but only his Highness running into her arms , whose Embleme of Innocence bears him alreadie in her mouth . These Romanists and your self agree too well in owning of U●●rpers , and measuring right by the length of the sword : and therefore when such Politi●ians say , that Olivers Titles and Actions were equally unjust , they are to be understood in such a sense , as when we say of a very D●nce , that he is as good a Logician as Grammarian , that is , in truth neither .

Mr. Hobbes .

Believe me Sir , my Leviathan was written when Oliver was but General b b H. Cons. p. 18.19 . who had not yet cheated the Parliament of their usurped power : [ and I never had a kindness for him or them . I lived peaceably under his Government , at my return from France , and so did the Kings Bishops also . ] Of the Bishops that then were c c H. Consid. p. 11.12 . — there was not one that followed the King out of the Land , though they loved him , but lived quietly under the protection , first of the Parliament , and then of Oliver ( whose Titles and Actions were equally unjust ) without treachery .

Stud.

That this is false , your own Conscience will inform you ; for the then Lord Bishop of London-derry ( a man of whom , to your cost , you have heard ) convey'd himself beyond the Seas , and was not there unmindful of the Kings interest ; although he hath not boasted of his Travels , as you are wont to do of your living at Paris . Let the testimony of Bishop Taylor , who was as likely as any man to know and report the truth , decide the controversie : his words are these . d d Bp. T. Fun. ser. p. 49-50 . God having still resolved to afflict us , the good man was forc'd into the fortune of the Patriarchs , to leave his Country and his charges , and seek for safety and bread in a strange Land . — This worthy man took up his Cross , and followed his Master . — At his leaving the Low-Countries upon the Kings return , some of the remonstrant-Ministers coming to take their leaves of this great man , and desiring that , by his means , the Church of England would be kind to them ; he had reason to grant it , because they were learned men , and in many things , of a most excellent belief : yet he reprov'd them , and gave them caution against it , that they approached too near , and gave too much countenance to the great and dangerous errors of the Socini●ns . He thus having served God and the King abroad , God was pleased to return to the King and to us all .

As for divers others of them , some were imprisoned , and others were by reason of Age , not so apt for forraign travel : and at home , they promoted the cause of their Soveraign , which , if all zealous Loyalists had with-drawn themselves , would , by degrees , have dyed away : and because they refused the Oaths imposed at the peril of their lives , and of their fortunes ( which though they were but little , were their all , ) they therefore are not to be judged treacherous in undermining the usurped Government , or disloyal to the King in enjoying protection under Oliver , whom they neither arm'd , nor owned in power : neither do you , here , take notice of the great number of loyal Priests , of which , some fled beyond the Seas , and others , staying in the Land , were , for their the sake of Allegiance , exposed to as great dangers as the roughest sea could have threatned them with : but it is the manner of some men , to wound true Loyalty and Religion through the sides of Ecclesiastick Officers .

Mr. Hobbes .

I have not said this to upbraid the Bishops , nor ever a a H. Con. p. 43-44 . spake I ill of any of them , as to their persons : and against their Office I never writ any thing . I never wrote ( I say ) against Episcopacy ; and it is my private opinion , that such an Episcopacy as is now in England is the most commodious that a Christian King can use for the the governing of Christs Flock : [ and if they submitted to Oliver they did justly , being then absolved of their obedience to their Soveraign ] : for the b b Lev. c. 21. p. 114. obligation of subjects to the Soveraign , is understood to last as long , and no longer , then the power lasteth , by which he is able to protect them . — The end of obedience is protection ; which , wheresoever a man seeth it , either in his own , or in anothers sword , Nature applyeth his obedience to it , and his endeavors to maintain it .

Stud.

You have here , according as the nature of falshood requireth , backed one untruth with a second : for , in your Leviathan c c Lev. p. 385. , you called Episcopacy a Praeterpolitical Church Government , and preferred Independencie above all other forms ; for , at that time , it was gotten uppermost , and seem'd the growing Interest , and Presbytery decayed : the truth is , the latter declin'd before the death of the King , to whose fall , that Partie was loath to give the last thrust : but when your Leviathan came forth , the house of Lords had bin voted useless , and the members that had voted the Kings concessions a ground for the House to proceed to a settlement , were secluded ; and the dregs of the House were Anabaptists and Independents : soon after this d d Members secluded , Feb. 1. 1648. Lords voted down , Feb. 6. 1648. Lev ▪ pub . Lo● . 1651. you , thus libeld , that government which was , then by right , his present Majesties :

The Analysis , of the Pontifical Power , is by the same way , the Synthesis or construction was ; but beginneth with the knot that was last tyed ( the Popes Supremacy ) ; as we may see in the dissolution of the Praeterpolitical Church-Government in England . First the power of the Popes was dissolved totally by Queen Elizabeth ; and the Bishops , who before , exercised their Functions in right of the Pope , did afterwards exercise the same , in the right of the Queen and her successors ; though by retaining the Phrase of Jure divino , they were thought to demand it , by immediate right from God : and so was untyed the first knot . After this , the Presbyterians lately in England obtained the putting down of Episcopacy : and so was the second knot dissolved : and almost at the same time , the power was taken also from the Presbyterians : and so we are reduced to the Independencie of the Primitive Christians , to follow Paul , or Cephas , or Apollos , every man as he liketh best : which , if it be without contention , and without measuring the doctrine of Christ , by our affection to the person of his Minister ( the fault which the Apostle reprehended in the Corinthians ) is perhaps the best . Wherefore speak no more of your reverence for Episcopacy , whilst you have cryed hail to it , and yet betraid it : neither is it for you to pretend to loyalty , who , when one asked what was the price of a Roman penny , amidst a Discourse of our civil Warres , ( whilst his thoughts were guided by a train , from , our Warres , to the delivering of the King , from that to the delivering of Christ , from that to the thirty pence received by Iudas , and from that to the value of the Roman penny ) call'd this , in Print , a a Lev. p. 9. a Malicious question , in the daies of the Parliament : as if it were malice , and not just zeal , which occasioned his comparing of the Martyrdom of King Charles to the death of the blessed Jesus . It is not , for you , to pretend to loyalty , who place right in force , and teach the people to assist the Usurper , with active compliance , against a dispossessed Prince ; and not meerly to live , at all adventure , in his Territories , without owning the protection by unlawful oaths , or by runing into arms against their dethroned Soveraign .

Mr. Hobbes .

I cannot but place the right of b b H. Cons. p. 19. government there , weresoever the strength shall be ; [ whatsoever be the ignominious terms with which you revile me . ]

Stud.

I say then again , ( and I neither revile nor slander you , unless it can be done by the repetition of the truth ) that you give encouragement to Usurpers ; and also , when civil discords are on foot ( as it happens too frequently in all States ) you , hereby move such people as are yet on the side of their lawful Prince , whose affairs they see declining , straitway to adjoyn themselves to the more prospe●ous partie , and to help to overturn those thrones of Soveraigntie , at which a while be●ore they prostrated themselves : for , in your way of reasoning , they have a right to preserve or delight themselves , by any course of means , and can be best protected by the prevailing side , which because it hath more degrees of growing power , ha's it seemeth , therefore more of right . The people thus miss-instructed , will imitate those idolatrous Heathens , who , for some years , worshipped a presumed Goddess made fast unto an Oake : but as soon as the Tree began by Age and Tempest , to appear decaying , they pay'd no further devotion to their Deity , neither would they come within the shaddow of the Oak or Image .

Mr. Hobbes .

Against this abuse of what I have taught , I have made provision , by inser●ing this amongst other Laws of Nature , that a a Lev. p. 390. every man is bound by nature , as much as in him lies , to protect in War the Authority , by which he is himself protected in time of Peace .

Stud.

That Law was forgotten in the body of your Leviathan , and cometh late into the review : the wound is first made , and then you endeavour to skin it over ; but neither can it so be closed : for this and all other Laws of Nature obliging no further ( as hath been already noted ) then they promote the first , the Law of self-interest ; it is in the choice of every subject ( whom b b De Civ . l. 1. c. 1 p. 12. Sect. 9. you make Judge of the means to preserve himself , ) to apply himself to the stronger side ; or for a company combin'd in arms and counsel , when an Heir and a Traytor are ingag'd in Battle with equal success ( as was the practice of the Lord Stanley , and Sir William Stanley and their adherents in the Engagement at Bosworth-Field ) to give the day to the side they presume will most favour them , by over-poising the power of the other side , by their fresh supply . Fear will not keep men from such attempts ; especially fear of outward punishment , whilst every one hopes to conquer , and to mend his game ( as you well c c Lev. p. 48. know ) by a new shuffle ; and is ( by you ) misperswaded , that failing in the enterprize , to his temporal peril , is his only offence against the Law of Nature . There is no tye so strong as that of Religion , which eternally bindeth a conscientious subject in allegiance to his Soveraign : and Wars arise from mens self-interests and lusts : and true goodness is both the Creator and Preserver of Peace : unless a man obeyeth for Conscience sake , all the cords of outward Pacts ●nd Covenants will not hold him , when he ●reameth that the Philistins are upon him , and ●hat he can deliver himself by force from the ●ower of his Enemies ; in which number the Prince himself is reckon'd by ambitious subjects , ●ut of favour : neither will such Covenants hold the people that pretend unto Religion , if ●hey be mis-taught that God is glorified in their private good , and that their private good is to ●e valued before the life of a Prince , if they can ●afely deprive him of it . For it is truely said ●y a Friend of yours , a a Memoires of Q. E. p. 53. That zeal , like lead , ●s as ready to drop into bullets , as to mingle with a composition fit for medicine .

Mr. Hobbes .

Covenants b b Lev. p. 89 See p. 87. being but words , and breath , have no force to oblige , contain , constrain , or protect any man , but what it has from the publick Sword . The Laws of Nature c c Lev. p. 85 ( as Justice , Equity , Modesty , Mercy , and ( in sum ) doing to others as we would be done to ) of themselves , without the terror of some power , to cause them to be observed , are contrary to our natural passions , that carry us to partiality , pride , revenge , and the like . And Covenants without the Sword , are but words , and of no strength to secure a man at all .

Stud.

The matter is much mended by this answer ; and you who cause or permit ( for with you they are the same ) a person , of none of the best manners , in a Preface to your Book of Destiny to revile the Embassadors of our Lord , and to levie against them , not the force of argument , but of foaming malice , and to reproach them by saying that they are ignorant Tinkers , and Soderers of Conscience ; how do you merit the same mock-name , by making wide holes and passages for every rebellious spirit , instead of stopping an Objection which charged your Doctrine with disloyalty ? For thus , Society is like a State of Nature , and all is managed still by force , notwithstanding the formalities of transferring Right by Pacts , and every man is to stand no longer to his bargain , when he can break it to his advantage : And thus , the Prince is always in a state of danger , because he cannot be , a day secure , of remaining uppermost ; seeing the people are taught by you , to believe that the right of Authority is a deceit , and that every one would have as good a title , if he had as long a sword : For the many-headed Beast will throw the Rider when he burthens and galls them , having no check of inward Law . For the Prince has but the strength of a single man , and the people can't confer irresistible Power , unless when they lift up their hands on high , they can give up their nerves , and muscles , and spirits , as well as testifie their present approbation . Wo to all the Princes upon earth , if this doctrine be true , and becometh popular : if the multitude believe this , the Prince , not armed with the scales of the Leviathan , that is , with irresistible power , can never be safe from the Spears and Barbed irons , which their ambition and presumed interest will provide , and their malice will sharpen , and their passionate violence throw against him . If the Beast , we speak of , come but to know its own strength , it will never be managed : Wherefore such as own these pernicious doctrines , destructive to all Societies of men , may be said to have Wolves heads , as the Laws of old were wont to speak concerning excommunicated Persons ; and are like those ravenous beasts , so far from deserving our love and care , that they ought to be destroyed at the common charge . What you have written three times over , in your de cive , de corpore politico , and Leviathan , ought rather to be esteemed seeds of sedition , then Elements of government and societie : the Principles of the Zelots amongst the Papists ( who obey a Forrein Power against the King ) are not consistent with the government of England ; yet , like the Elements in Aristotle , they are not burthensome in their proper place of Italy : but of such large infection is the doctrine , that it will endanger the life of the Common-wealth , wheresoever it is entertained in the consequences of it .

Mr. Hobbes .

At Paris a a H. Co● . p. 7. I wrote my Book de cive in Latine — and I know no book more magnified then that beyond the Seas . Natural Philosophie b b Ep ▪ ded . Be● . d● Corpore . is but young ; but civil Philosophie yet much younger , as being no older ( I say it provoked , and that my detractors may know how little they have wrought upon me ) then my own book de Cive : a short c c Six Less . p. 56. sum of that book of mine , now publiquely in French , done by a Gentleman I never saw , carrieth the title of Aethics demonstrated : accuse not then such Politics , as are , though new , yet of sure foundation .

Stud.

Your Doctrine is old enough , and I wish it had one propertie of Age , to be attended with decay . Carneades and divers others bottom'd Policy and self-Interest , and you have only wire-drawn that which is delivered by them in a lump : and for this , as is the manner of divers who have an itch of writing , you claw your self . I could repeat to you , divers sayings of the ancient deceivers in Moralitie ; such as are , Armatus leges ut o●gitem ? nec natura potest justo secernere iniquum , — utilitas justi prope mater & aequi , and the like : but you would then turn all off , by deriding me for having made a motly Oration . I have somtimes , by my self , made this conjecture , that you being so conversant with Thu●ydides ; the Oration of Euphemus d d Thucyd. l 6. p. 467. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . delivered there , might first hint to you your sandy Politicks : for that Athenian Embassadour to the Camarin●i , amongst other things tending much that way , at last plainly told them , that to a Governour nothing which was profitable was dishonest , or unreasonable : which Doctrine , because it invites ambitious men to step into Authority when the door is open , and mercenary soldiers to decide a dispute , not in favour of the right , but the most profitable side ; because it moveth them that are supream to become Tyrants in the exercise of that power , which Religion ought to limit , though the people may not , and to make their passions their chief rules , and to govern with Armies rather then Laws , or , if with both , to dy their Flags , and to write their Edicts , in the blood of whom they please : because , I say , it taketh off all sence of what we call humanity from the supream powers , and so , not unlike to a Porta Sabina , calls in innumerable evils upon such people as are quiet and modest ; it therefore ought , no more to be sucked in , by Prince or People , then pernicious air in time of common Pestilence .

Mr. Hobbes .

Name not Tyranny as a word of reproach , for the name of Tyranny e e Lev p. 392. Review● signifieth nothing more nor less , then the name of Soveraignty , be it in one , or many men , saving that they that use the former word , are understood to be angry with them they call Tyrants : and I think the toleration of a professed hatred of Tyranny , is a toleration of hatred to Common-wealth in general — So that here , f f Six Less . p. 62. I must say to you , Peace , down , for you bark now at the Supream Legislative power ; therefore 't is not I but the Laws which must rate you off . And now me thinks my endeavour g g Ep. ded . bes . Lev. to advance the civil power , should not be by the civil power condemned ; nor private men , by reprehending it , declare they think that power too great [ and after what manner I endeavour the advancement of it , I think it worth the time to declare to you . ] I shew a a Lev. p ▪ 105. that the Scripture requireth absolute obedience : I teach b b Lev. p. 108.109 . that the people have made artificial chains , called civil laws , which they themselves , by mutual Covenants , have fastned at one end , to the lips of that man , or Assembly , to whom they have given the Soveraign power ; and at the other end , to their own ears : that , c c ibid. & Lev. p. 90. ●82 . nothing the Soveraign can do to the Subject , can properly be called Injustice or injury , because every subject is Author of every Act the Soveraign doth . That d d Lev. p. 128. see p. 169. the proprietie of a subject excludeth not the dominion of the Soveraign , but only of another subject .

Stud.

Remember Sir , the case of Ahab and Naboth ; unless you suppose it in times of publick necessitie .

Mr. Hobbes .

Interrupt me not : I teach also , that e e Lev. p. 95. the King is the absolute Representative , and that it is dangerous to give such a title to those men , who are sent up by the people to carry their Petitions , and give him ( if he permit it ) their advice . That f f Lev. p. 137.169 . the Soveraign is sole Legislator , and not subject to civil laws . That g g Lev. p. 143. c. 26. to him there cannot be any knot in the law , insoluble ; either by finding out the ends to undo it by ; or else by making what ends he will , ( as Alexander did with his sword in the Gordian-knot , ) by the Legislative power ; which no other Interpreter can doe . That there is h h Lev. p. 24. no common Rule of good and evil , to be taken from the Nature of the objects themselves ; but from the Person of the man ( where there is no Common-wealth ) or , ( in a Common-wealth ) from the Person that representeth it , or from an Arbitrator or Judge , whom men disagreeing shall by consent set up , and make his sentence the rule thereof . That i i Lib. & Nec . p. 29. where there is no law , there no killing or any thing else can be unjust . That k k L●v. p. 91 the civil Soveraign is Judge of what doctrines are fit to be taught . I also maintain l l Leviath . p. 119 c 33 that Soveraigns , being in their own Dominions the sole Legislators ; those books only are Can●nical , that is , Law in every Nation , which are established for such by the Soveraign Authority .

Stud.

In some things you are just to the Praerogative of Kings ; but in others , you ought to have remembred the words of our Lord , who adviseth us to give to Caesar the things that are Caesars , and unto God the things that are Gods . For your cavil at the name Tyrant , it is in the sense I us'd it ( for exercise of unlimited power ) unbecoming a Prince : but I know how very frequently it is misapply'd by those , who will call the very bridling of their licentiousness , hateful Tyranny ; and find fault with the law , for no other reason but because it is a r●straint upon their supposed freedome : whereas the hedges which the law sets down , are to keep them only in the truest and safest way . The absolute Princes of Syracuse were called Tyrants , though some of them deserved the title of Benefactors : and amongst our selves , the best of Kings was branded with that ignominious character . For that which you have justly said in favour of a Monarch , had it bin Printed before Forty eight , it might have bin of good effect , at least it might have shewed a disposition to promote Loyalty . But being published , after the Kings Martyrdom , and his Sons exile , it served the purposes of those people who had then the Militia in their hands . For you say a a Lev. p. 102. that the Rights of a Common-wealth by acquisition , are the same with those , by Institution or Succession : That the power of the Representative ( whether in one or many ) cannot without consent be transferr'd , forfeited , accus'd , punish'd : and that such a person is Supreme Judge . The Parliament therefore ought to have return'd you thanks , for ascribing to them the strength of the Leviathan , and for keeping their nostrils free from the books of the right Heir and his adherents . They ought , especially , to have given you the thanks of the House for saying , b b Lev. p. 241. I maintain nothing in any Paradox of Religion ; but attend the end of that dispute of the Sword , concerning the Authority , ( not yet amongst my Country-men decided ) by which all sorts of Doctrine are to be approved , or rejected ; and whose commands , both in speech and writing ; ( whatsoever be the opinions of private men ) must by all men , that mean to be protected by their Laws , be obeyed .

But notwithstanding all this , what you seem to build up on the side of the Soveraign , you pull down on the side of the People . For whilst you found all upon single Self-interest , ( to the advancement of which all safe means are , by you , esteemed c c Lev. p 90 De Cive , c. lawful ) these specious rights are no longer his , then by main force he can keep possession of them . That will not be long , if great Delinquents call'd in question , and miserable people ( who , like such as stake their Cloak in an over-hot day , are willing to hazard the life they would be rid of ; and are easily misled , not looking upon the stumbling-blocks in the way , but d d Lev. p. 159. on the light that others carry before them ) , if these , can promote their private good , by Sword , or Poyson , or Mutiny . The people , if they believ'd that a company of Delinquents e e Lev. p. 111 , 112-113 See p. 69 o● Lev. and L. S. Natur●s Dowry in Append. to F.D. p. 54 , joyning together to defend themselves by Arms , do not at all unjustly ; but may , lawfully , repel lawful Force , by Force ; they would soon be stirred up , and suffer none , for whom they have respect , to be brought to justice .

For your last particular concerning the Power of the Civil Soveraign , in relation to that for which we have assign'd

The Ninth place , that is to say , the Canon of holy Scripture ; it see●eth a great indignity offered to the Soveraignty of Christ . Upon this occasion , I remember a saying of Dr. Weston , which would better have become a man in Buff , then a Prolocutor of the Convocation . After six days spent in hot dispute about Religion , in the Reign of Queen Mary , he dismissed those of the Reformed way in these words a a Dr. Hey●ins Hist. of the Reform . in Q. M. p. 30 : It is not the Queens pleasure that we should spend any longer time in these debates ; and ye are well enough already : for you have the Word , and we have the Sword . So little of the obligation of holy Writ is perceived by those whose eyes are dazled with Secular Grandeur .

But , before we come to dispute of the power which maketh the Scripture - Canon , which is , as 't were the Main Battle ; may we not a little breathe and prepare our selves , in some lesser Skirmishes , touching the Writings of the Old and New Testament ?

Mr. Hobbes .

If you like that course , I am ready to joyn with you . First , then , I take notice b b Lev. p. 200.201 . at large . that divers historical Books of the Old Testament , were not written by those whose names they bear ; to wit , much of the Pentateuch , the Books of Ioshuah , and Iudges , and Ruth , and Samuel , and Kings , and Chronicles .

Stud.

This hath bin , long since said , and proved , by the places which you cite in your Leviathan , by the Frenchman who founded a Systeme of Divinity upon the conceit of men before Adam ! who also , by Recantation , unravel'd his own Cobweb , spun out of his own fancie , rather then the true Records of time . But this doth not invalidate the truth of those Histories , whose sufficient antiquity is , by you , granted .

Mr. Hobbes .

I observe , again , concerning the Book of Iob a a Lev. p. 202. , that though it appear sufficiently that he was no feigned person , yet the Book it self seemeth not to be an History , but a Treatise concerning a question in ancient time disputed , why wicked men have often prospered in this world , and good men have been afflicted : and it is the more probable , because the whole dispute is in Verse — but Verse is no usual stile of such as either are themselves in great pain , as Iob ; or of such as come to comfort them , as his Friends ; but in Philosophy , especially moral Philosophy , in ancient time frequent .

Stud.

It is not thought that Iob or his Friends , but Moses , or some other , pen'd the History in the form in which we have it . But however you here alledge a Reason , which proveth the contrary to the purpose you would have it serve for : For Poetry exciting the imagination and affections , is fittest for painting out the Scene of Tragedy . You have surely forgotten Ovid de Tristibus .

Mr. Hobbes .

Please your self in replies : I will proceed to observe further , that b b Lev. ● 203. See Lev. 284. as for the Books of the Old Testament , they are derived to us , from no other time then that of Esdras , who , by the direction of Gods Spirit , ●etrived them , when they were lost .

Stud.

That place in the fourth Book of Esdras , wherein it is said in his person , Thy Law is burnt c c 4 E●d . c. 14.21 , &c. , therefore no man knoweth the things that thou hast done , is a very fable . For though the Autographa of Moses , and the Prophets have been thought to have perished at the burning of Hierusalem , yet it is not true that all the Copies were destroyed : For the Prophets , in the Captivity d d Dan. ● . 11 , 1● , 1● . read the Law . And concerning that whole fourth Book , it is said by Bellarmine himself , e e De Sc●●p . Eccles. p. 22. that the Author is a Romancer . Of the like nature may they seem who talk of the men of the Synagoga magna , making Ezra to be a chief man amongst them , and ascribing to them the several divisions and sections of the Old Testament ; even that , wherein the Book of Daniel is ( most absurdly ) reckon'd amongst the Hagiographa . Of that Synagoga magna , there is not one word spoken by Iosephus , or St. Hierom , though both had very fair occasions , in some parts of their writings , to have intreated of it . And the deficiencie of the Jewish story , about that time , may move us to believe that this was the fiction of modern Rabbies ; and Morinus thinks he has demonstrated that so it was .

Mr. Hobbes .

I note again , that the f f Lev. p. ●99 . Septuagint , who were seventy Learned men of the Jews , sent for by Ptolomy King of Egypt , to translate the Jewish Law , out of the Hebrew into Greek , have left us no other Books for holy Scripture in the Greek Tongue , but the same that are received in the Church of England .

Stud.

It is not resolved whether they translated any more then the five Books of Moses , and whether they turn'd them out of Hebrew , Chaldee , or the Samaritan Tongue , to which latter Pentateuch the translation of the seventy is shew'd , by Hottinger , to agree most exactly , in a very great number of places , by him produced in order g g See ●●otting . Thes. Philolog . p. 2●1 , &c. : but there is as great question whether that we have , be the true Copy of the Seventy : for seeing therein the names of places ( as 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 for Caphto●im ) are there rendred not according to the Hebrew , but after the manner in which they were call'd in the latter times under the second Temple h h See Dr. Light-foot's Horae Hebr. in S. Marc. p. 49 , 50. ; the antiquity of the Copy of Rome may be suspected .

Mr. Hobbes .

Be it also observed , that those Books which are called Apocrypha were left out of the Canon , not for inconformity of Doctrine with the rest , but onely because they are not found in the Hebrew .

Stud.

Here , again , you erre : for by the same Reason , some part which is contained in the Canon , should have been , of old , excluded . For instance , the Book of Daniel is partly written in Hebrew , and partly written in Caldee ; for Daniel had learnt that Tongue in Babylon by the command of the King . Neither are all Apocryphal Books to be thought not written in Hebrew ; for that excellent Book of the Son of Syrach , as is manifest by his Preface to it , was a translation out of the Hebrew Copy of his Grand-father Iesus . The Reason why such Books were not received by the Jews into the Canon , was not what you suggest , but because they seem'd not written by that kinde of prophesie which they called Ruach Hakkodesh a a See Vo●sin in Proem . Pug. fid. p. 103. .

Mr. Hobbes .

I confess b b Lev. p. 199. c. 33. St. Hierom had seen the first of the Maccabees in Hebrew .

Stud.

Neither is that rightly noted : For the Book which St. Hierom saw , as is thought by Drusius , a man profoundly learned in these matters , was the first Book of the History of the Hasmon●ei , whose Epoch was of later date , though the names are us'd promisouously amongst the Jews .

Mr. Hobbes .

I proceed to note , that c c Lev. p. ●03 , 204. the Writers of the New Testament lived all in less then an age after Christs Ascension , and had all of them seen our Saviour , or been his Disciples , except St. Paul , and St. Luke ; and consequently whatsoever was written by them is as ancient as the time of the Apostles . But the time wherein the Books of the New Testament were received , and acknowledged by the Church to be of their writing , is not altogether so ancient — These Books , of which the Copies were not many , nor could easily be all in any one private mans hand , cannot be derived from a higher time , then that wherein the Governours of the Church collected , approved , and recommended them to us , as the Writings of those Apostles and Disciples , under whose names they go . The first Enumeration of all the Books , both of the Old and New Testament , is in the Canons of the Apostles , supposed to be collected by Clement the first ( after St. Peter ) Bishop of Rome . But because that is but supposed , and by many questioned , the Council of Laodicea is the first we know , that recommended the Bible to the then Christian Churches , for the Writings of the Prophets and Apostles : and this Council was held in the 364 year after Christ . At which time , though ambition had so far prevailed on the great Doctors of the Church , as no more to esteem Emperours though Christian , for the Shepherds of the people , but for Sheep ; and Emperours not Christian , for Wolves ; and endeavour'd to pass their Doctrine , not for counsel and informatition , as Preachers ; but for Laws , as absolute Governours ; and thought such frauds as tended to make the people more obedient to Chr●stian Doctrine , to be pious ; yet I am perswaded they did not therefore falsifie the Scriptures , though the Copies of the Books of the New Testament , were in the hands onely of the Ecclesiasticks ; because if they had had an intention so to do , they would surely have made them more favourable to their power over Christian Princes , and civil Soveraignty , then they are .

Stud.

It is plain to those who are versed in the Monuments of the Church , that the Books of the New Testament were declared Canon very early , though the precise time and place be not so easily known . Upon the Enumeration made in the Apostolick Canons , we rely not ; not because that Book is to be esteemed wholly spurious ; but because this Enumeration is made in the eighty fourth Canon . For the first fifty are those for whose antiquity we contend . It is true that the whole is call'd Apocryphal , by the Council a a Bin ▪ Conc. tom. 3. p. 663. at Rome under Pope Gelasius : and it hath been answer'd , b b Dr. H●m . Conc. Ign●t . Ep. p. 4. that they were so called , not as if they were not ancient Pieces , but because they were not made Nomocanon or Canon-law . But doubtless that Council rejected them as spurious Writings , numbring them amongst the late and feigned pieces of the Gospel of St. Andrew , the Revelation of St. Paul , the Books of Og the Gyant , of the Testament of Iob , of the Daughters of Adam , and the like . But it hath also condemn'd the works of Tertullian , St. Cyprian , Arnobius , Lactantius , and the History of Ensebius ; and therefore it is not material what writing standeth or falleth , before such erroneous Judges . Certain it is by other passages , in ancient Writers , that the New Testament was acknowledg'd to be Canon , long enough before the Council of Laodicea . The earliest Christian Writers whose Books are derived to our hands , abound in ●itations of the New Testament , as the undoubted Register of what was done , and taught , and as the publick Rule . Tertullian ( for example ) citeth very many places out of every Book which now is contained in the Canon of the New Testament , if I except the second of St. Peter . And in his fourth Book against Marcion c c Tert. adv. Marc. l 4. p. 415. he speaketh effectually to our present purpose . If that ( said he ) be tru●st which was ●irst , and that be first which ●as from the beginning , and that be from the beginning which is derived from the Apostles , it is also manifest , that that was from the Apostles which is sacred in the Churches of the Apostles . Let us see then what milk St. Paul fed the Corinthians with : by what rule the Galatians were reformed ; what the Philippians , Thessalonians , Ephesians read ; as also what the Romans preach , to whom St. Peter and St. Paul did leave the Gospel sealed with their bloud . We have also Churches instructed by St. John . For although Marcion hath rejected his Apocalypse , yet the succession of Bishops traced to the begin●ing , will establish him as the certain Author of that Book . And he had taught a while before d d Ter● . ●b . p. 14. B. , that the Gospel had Apostles and Apostolike men for their undoubted Authors . The Books then of the New Testament were received anciently enough , as the Writings of such whose names they bare , and as the Records of Truth . And for the Copies of them , they were so widely dispersed , that it was as hard to corrupt them all , as to poyson the Sea . They were before the Council of Laodicea , not onely in the hands of Ecclesiasticks , but of Christians of any profession ; and of Heathens also . So it appeareth by the reflexions , invidiously made on them , by Celsies , and Hierocles ; not to name Porphyry , who was once of the Jewish , then of the Christian Religion ; and against both at last , by foul Apostacy . In the persecution of D●ocletian , in the beginning of the fourth Century , there was an Edict for the delivering up the Copies of the Gospel : which for fear , was done by divers Christians , known by the name of Traditores in Church-History ; and yet notwithstanding very many Copies were preserved by such good men , who valued the other ●tate before this , and feared to be blotted out of the Book of life , if they should so contribute to the extermination of the Books of Scripture . Historians tell us a a Vide Bisciol . Epit. Annal . Bar. p. 137. Tradit . ingens numerus ; sed propè insi●irus ill●rum , qui mortem potius , &c. that the number of the Traditores was very great ; but that the number of such who ( as the Roman Office saith ) chose rather to give up themselves to the Executioners , then to deliver up holy things to Dogs , was almost infinite : and amongst these were very many Virgins , particularly Crispina , Marciana , Candida . So apparently false it is , that the Copies were but few , and those few onely in the hands of Ecclesiasticks . But in whatsoever hands these Books were , and at whatsoever time they were first publickly acknowledged , in this ( I think ) we agree , ( and Iulian himself b b Jul. Apost. Epist. p. 195. confess'd it , when Apostate ) that they are genuine .

Mr. Hobbes .

I see not c c Lev. p. ●04 . any reason to doubt , but that the Old and New Testament , as we have them now , are the true Registers of those things , which were done and said by the Prophets and Apostles .

Stud.

What hindereth then , that we may not at all times , do or speak the things contained in them , after such manner as we are there directed ? And that the Scripture should not be a perpetual Canon to every Christian ; seeing the Laws of Christ are contained in it , and the Successors of the Apostles ( who could bind them upon the Church with sufficient right , though not with outward force ) propounded them as necessary Rules of life ? But , methinks , 't is enough to constitute a Canon to any particular man , if he may , by any means attain unto a certain belief , of any Rule , as delivered by Christ ; without a superadded Decree Ecclesiastical or Civil .

Mr. Hobbes .

That c c Lev. c. 42 p. 284 285 the new Testament should in this sense be Canonical , that is to say , a Law in any place , where the Law of the Commonwealth had not made it so , is contrary to the nature of a Law . For a Law is the Commandment of that Man , or Assembly , to whom we have given Soveraign Authority , to make such Rules for the direction of our Actions , as he shall think fit ; and to punish us when we do any thing contrary to the same . When therefore any other man shall offer unto us any other Rules , which the Soveraign Ruler hath not prescribed , they are but Counsel , and Advice ; which , whether good or bad , he that is counselled , may without injustice refuse to observe ; and when contrary to the Laws already established , without injustice cannot observe , how good soever he conceiveth it to be . I say , he cannot in this case observe the same in his actions ; nor in his discourse with other men ; though he may without blame believe his private Teachers , and wish he had the liberty to practise their advice ; and that it were publickly received for Law .

Stud.

Then , it seems , before the days of Constantine , a private man was obliged to be , a Jew , or a Gentile , according to the Civil Authority under which he was ; and that Christianity did not oblige●●e conversation of any man .

Mr. Hobbes .

Christ d d Lev. p. 285. hath not subjected us to other Laws then those of the Common-wealth ; that is , the Jews to the Law of Moses , ( which he saith ( Mat. 5. ) he came not to destroy , but to fulfil ) and other Nations to the Laws of their several Soveraigns .

Stud.

That Christ subjected the Jews to the Laws of Moses , considered as such , is a saying which relisheth both of ignorance and irreligion . It is evident that the very Law of the Ten Commandments , obligeth not any Christian man , ( though he be supposed to live under a Jewish ▪ Soveraign ) as delivered by Moses , but as the designe of them agreeth with the Law of Nature , and of Christ , who advanced both Laws , and filled them up , adding as 't were his last hand to an imperfect Draught . And for the Cer●monial Law , our Saviour came to put an end to it , because it was but an estate of expectation , and consisted in shadows of good things to come : and if he had established that as an enduring Law , he had , in effect , denied himself to be the true Messiah . For the sprinkling of the Altar with the bloud of Bulls and Goats , after the ancient manner of the Jews , importeth manifestly that the effectual Oblation is not yet offered : wherefore S. Paul a a G●l . 5. ● , ● . bespeaketh his Galatians after this manner : Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made you free , and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage . Behold , I Paul say unto you , that if you be circumcised , Christ shall profit you nothing . Moses himself foretold that our Saviour should arise after him , and become a Prophet to be obeyed in whatsoever he taught the people b b Deut. 18.15.18 . comp. with . Acts 3.22 , &c. : wherefore Caesar Vanin , who suffered as an Atheist , said , in his Dialogues , that Moses was not so politic as the Messiah , in delivering his Laws ; because he foretold the abrogation of them , whilst Christ propounded his as everlasting .

Then for Christs subjecting the Gentiles to the Law of their Civil Soveraign , of what perswasion soever , it is contrary to the great designe of our Saviours coming : for amongst the Heathen the worship of false Gods was the Law of their Country . It was one of the Laws of the twelve Tables c c Nemo separatim Deos habesci● . , that no man could have a personal Religion , but worship ●●ch Gods , and in such manner , as the Law of his Country did prescribe . And Cicero shews ●ow , in his days , it was not lawful to worship any sort of Gods ; lest a confusion should be brought into Religion . Hence Augustus , tra●elling in Aegypt , would not step out of his way , to visit Apis ; and Caius his Nephew , passing through Iudea , would not worship at Ierusalem . Hence Socrates and Protagoras , main●aining opinions disagreeing with the Religion of their Country , were condemned ; and Ana●●arsis , also , suffered in Scythia for celebrating the Feast of Bacchus , by the Forraign Ceremonies of Greece . Hence Christ was not registred in the Calendar of the Gods , though Tiberius understanding his Divinity from Pontius Pilate , gave his suffrage for it ; because it pleased not the Senate ; and because ( saith Tertullian ) it was an old Decree of Rome , that no man should be consecrated for a Deity by the Emperour , without their Approbation . If then all persons were to be outwardly obedient to the Civil powers , they were to worship false Deities ; Idolatry being then established by a Law : but on the contrary , it is evident , that one main end of our Saviours coming was to destroy the works of the devil , and to bring the Gentiles from the worship of Daemons , to the service of the true God . Idolaters , therefore , are reckon'd amongst those who shall not inherit the kingdom of Christ : and S. Paul wrote so much particularly to d d 1 Cor. 6.9 Ephes. 5.5 1 Cor. 10.7 the Corinthians , and Ephesians , of those days , when the Powers were Heathen ; and not merely to such as should read his Epistles in and after the Reign of Constantine and preaching at Athens against the Altar , To the unknown God ( set up , no doubt , by public● Authority ) and declaiming against the honour paid to false Gods ; he lets them understand that the times of the ignorance of the Gentiles e e Acts 17.30 , 31. God winked at , but now he commandet all men everywhere to repent ; because he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness , by that man whom h● hath ordained ; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men , in that he hath raised him from the dead .

Mr. Hobbes .

Such discourses are Counsels and not Laws . Our Saviour a a Leviath . p 285. and his Apostles left no new Laws to oblige us in this world , but new Doctrine to prepare us for the next ; the Books of the New Testament which contain that Doctrine , until obedience to them was commanded , by them that God had given power to on earth to be Legislators , were not obligatory Canons , that is , Laws , but onely good , and safe advice , for the direction of sinners in the way to salvation , which every man might take , and refuse at his peril , without injustice .

Stud.

The Doctrines of Christ avail not , at all , towards an entrance into his kingdom , without obedience b b Heb 5.9 . to his Laws : and besides , those of mere Nature , he hath left new Laws unto the world : such are those of forgiving enemies , and against private Revenge : those , concerning Baptism , and his holy Supper : concerning Divorce and Polygamy : concerning a professing of faith in him as the Messiah : concerning an Inward Religion , which the Governours of the world cannot take cognizance of ; and which Trypho the Jew , with many others , hath denied to have been given by Moses , whose Laws they suppose to have extended not to the thought , but the conversation . That which concerns Polygamy hath ( I know ) bin doubted ; yet ( as it seemeth to me ) without reason : for when our Saviour said c c S Luke 16.18 . that he who putteth away his wife and marrieth another , committeth Adultery ; he plainly forbad plurality of wives at the same time ; which if it had bin allowed , the man might have taken more then another to him , without sin . Here then the Law of perfection hath bound us , where Nature seemeth to have left us at liberty . Now seeing these Institutions are the will of Christ , and that Christ hath made sufficient promulgation of them to millions of men , and that he is King of kings , and Lord of lords , and that he hath annexed to them the greatest rewards and punishments to secure them from violation ; it is evident that these are sufficient Laws , both without and against the Civil Sanction . For to say that the Princes of the Earth are Superior to Christ , is a Blasphemy of such altitude , that the ninetieth degree being cut , we can scarce take the heighth of it . What maketh a Superiour Law , but a Superiour Power , declaring his Will in some particular instances , to be obey'd ? The Prohibition of the Tree of Life was the firmest Law to Adam , though no humane Law was then enacted ; nay , although Adam was King of the Earth .

But , if the Christian Faith was not a Law for more then three hundred years , to what end is it d d See Lev. p. 286. that the Apostles , and other Pastors of the Church , after their time should meet together , to decree upon what Doctrine should be taught , both for faith and manners , if no man were obliged to observe their Decrees ?

Mr. Hobbes .

To this e e Ibid. may be answered , that the Apostles and Elders of that Council , were obliged even by their entrance into it , to teach the Doctrine therein concluded , and decreed to be taught , so far forth , as no precedent Law , to which they were obliged to yeild obedience , was to the contrary ; but not that all other C●●istians should be obliged to observe what they taught : For though they might deliberate what each of them should teach ; yet they could not deliberate what others should do , unless their Assembly had had a Legislative Power ; which none could have but civil Soveraigns .

Stud.

That is , the Gospel preached by them was no Law then , because it did not cut its way by the Temporal Sword , and had no outward Power to give it countenance , and urge its entertainment . Is that your meaning ?

Mr. Hobbes .

You conjecture aright : For a a Lev. p. 285. in Christs Commission to his Apostles and Disciples — there is nothing of power but perswasion . — They had not in Commission to make Laws ; but to obey , and teach obedience to Laws made ; and consequently they could not make their writings obligatory Canons , without the help of the Soveraign Civil Power .

Stud.

That b b See in the end of that page , and p. 286. which may seem to give the New Testament , in respect of those that have embraced Christian Doctrine , the force of Laws in the times and places of persecution , is the Decrees they made amongst themselves in their Synods . For we read ( Acts 15.28 . ) the style of the Council of the Apostles , the Elders , and the whole Church , in this manner : It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and unto us , to lay upon you no greater burthen then these necessary things , &c. which is a style that signifieth a power to lay a burthen on them that had received their Doctrine . Now to lay a burthen on another , seemeth the same that to oblige ; and therefore the Acts of that Council were Laws to the then Christians .

Mr. Hobbes .

They were no more Laws then are those other Precepts , Repent ; be baptized ; keep the commandments ; believe the Gospel ; come unto me ; sell all that thou hast ; give it to the poor ; and , follow me : which are not Commands , but Invitations , and callings of men to Christianity , like that of Esay 55.1 . Ho , every man that thirsteth , come ye to the waters .

Stud.

I● seemeth strange that such Counsels should not therefore be Laws , ( though some of them are given imperatively enough ) because men are gently wooed and invited , and not by outward force compelled to an outside obedience . Our subordination to Christ obligeth us to the performance of his revealed will , which is , for that reason , Law . And because he chooseth to rule us , rather with a Scepter of Righteousness , then an iron Rod , we are , by that , the more obliged , and not at liberty from obedience . You ought , therefore , to have said , not that the Doctrines of our Saviour were not Laws , but that the Civil Soveraign may lay a further obligation upon his Christian subjects , ( as those that make a vow of Chastity , do , upon themselves ) by making them become his Laws . Thus many Articles of the Christian Faith are inserted into the first Law of the Codex Theodosianus ; not having thereby , first obtained , but doubled their obligation . But this string of errour runneth through the whole body of your Leviathan , that , without apparent force , there is no Law . And this is the chief ground of your irreverent and false Doctrine , against the Power of the Christian Church . Because it is a visible society professing the Doctrine of the Cross , and hath not of it self external co-active Power , but , by virtue of the Commission of Christ as King , layeth spiritual obligation upon men , ( and thereby is consistent with the Civil Empire , in which it is , ) therefore you deny unto the Church the right either of making or declaring Laws c c Lev. p. 171. as if there were not onely a quibble but a truth , in the meaning of the Frontispiece of your Leviathan , which compares the Canons of the Convocation , to those of the temporal Militia ; and that they could not properly have that name , unless they had Powder , and Bullet , and Fire , ( external force ) attending on them . It is plain enough ( and you your self do own it ) that after the Ascension d d Lev. p. 267. of our Lord , the Power Ecclesiastical , was in the Apostles ; and after them , in such as were by them ordained to preach the Gospel , and to convert men to Christianity , and to direct them that were converted in the way of Salvation ; and after these , the Power was delivered again to others by these ordained . But how this Spiritual Power , in the Administration of Spiritual Affairs in Christ's Kingdom ; in ordaining Successors ; in celebrating the Eucharist ; in loosing and binding ; in admitting members into this Spiritual but visible society by Baptisme ( which is a proof both of the Society and its Power ) how all this ( I say ) was derived on the person of Constantine , who was neither Ordained , nor ( as some tell us ) baptized till his death ; requireth greater skill to explain , then I dare yet pretend to : he therefore rather gave outward aids and succours , then true Authority and Right to the Doctrines and Commandments of his Soveraign Jesus . Which things being well consider'd , you ought not to have ascrib'd ( as somewhere you have done ) the very rights of the Priestly Function to the Civil Powers . Grotius , who has not had thanks from all for his liberality to the Civil Magistrate in relation to the Affairs of the Church , hath yet made it his whole designe ( in the second Chapter of his Book De Imperio summarum potestatum circa Sacra ) to make it manifest , that Authority about Holy things , and the Sacred Function , are distinct . In the same person they may be ( as in Anius the King and Priest of Phoebus ) but not without Ordination . For the Power depending upon our Lords Commission , is not convey'd but by Succession , through the hands of the Commissioned . Our thirty seventh Article , doth attribute to the King a Power of outward Rule in Ecclesiastical matters , yet granteth not to him either the ministring of Gods Word , or of the Sacraments . And under the Law , it was said unto Vzziah the King a a 2 Chron. 26.18 , 19 , &c. It pertaineth not unto thee Vzziah to burn incense unto the Lord , but to the Priests , the sons of Aaron , that are consecrated to burn incense . And because he would use his force in usurping the rights of the Priest , God Almighty smote him with immediate Leprosie ; and taught him to discern betwixt might and right . Yet the Kings of Iudah had power in the Synagogue . They had ●o de facto ; neither in many things , wherein they ordered Religion , were they reproved . Yet to say the truth , the having such right is no where commanded in the Old Law ; which enjoyn'd not the people to have a King ; but , upon conditions , permitted one to them , if they should prefer the customs of the Heathen-nations , before the most excellent estate of Theocracie . Wherefore let them see whether they build closely , who establish the Ecclesiastical Power of Christian Princes , upon the exercise of it amongst the Kings of Iudah . It concerneth you also to consider whether you have not unduly ascrib'd unto the Prince , as such , the Power of the Keys , and the Right of Ordination , and Ministration of the Sacraments , and Word of Christ . The Monarch ( say you ) or b b Lev. p. 125. the Soveraign Assembly onely hath immediate Authority from God , to teach and instruct the people ; and no man but the Soveraign receiveth his Power Dei Gratia simply — He it is that hath c c Lev. p. 297. authority not onely to preach ( which perhaps no man will deny ; ) but also to baptize , and to administer the Sacrament of the Lords Supper ; and to consecrate both Temples and Pastors to Gods service — If the Soveraign Power d d Stigm●●● p. 18. give me command ( though without the ceremony of imposition of hands ) to teach the Doctrine of my Leviathan in the Pulpit , why am not I , if my Doctrine and life be as good as yours , a Minister as well as you ? This is saying and not proving ; and because the Power was from Christ derived to the Apostles , and from them in Succession , by Ordination ; and can be in none to whom it is not convey'd in such a Channel ; what you have said , had you been versed in the several Writings of a Divine of the Church of England ( a man of greater and better Learning then either your self or Mr. Selden , whose Doctrine you seem to have swallow'd down together with the good provisions of his Table ; and who is said to have mistaken the very sta●e of the Erastian-Controversie a a See Just weights & meas . p. 25. whilst he defined Excommunication to be a censure inferring a civil penalty ▪ ) you would have either altered your opinion , or aggravated your error .

It appeareth , by what hath been delivered , that there is Authority enough , without the civil Sanction , to make the Doctrines of the Apostles to become Laws , to wit , the Kingly Power of Christ , whose Commissioners they were , and who had power to cause their rights to descend to others by Ordination . And before the days of Constantine , there wanted not the Fountain of outward force , not onely in our Lord , who could dash in pieces Soveraigns of the finest mold ; but also in his Members , who ( as is manifest from Ecclesiastical story ) had often strength enough to have check'd the fury of their persecutors , and to have forc'd the yoke of Christ upon their necks . But it seemed good to our blessed Lord , during this state of mans probation ; to deal chiefly with him , according to his reasonable nature , and to invite rather then compel . And yet , methinks , the threatnings of eternal vengeance seem to carry more force with them , then all the prisons in the world . And it is time to think that the Gospel obligeth , when we hazard perpetual misery by disobeying it , whether we be Jews or Greeks , if its sound hath reached us .

Mr. Hobbes .

The Jews and Gentiles were to be damned , not for their infidelity , but a a Lev. ● . 285. their old sins . If the Apostles Acts of Council were Laws , they could not without sin be disobeyed . But we read not any where that they who receiv'd not the Doctrine of Christ , did therein sin ; but that they dyed in their sins ; that is , that the sins against the Laws to which they owed obedience , were not pardoned . And those Laws were the Laws of Nature , and the Civil Laws of the State , whereto every Christian man had by pact submitted himself . And therefore by the burthen , which the Apostles might lay on such as they had converted , are not to be understood Laws , but Conditions , proposed to those that sought Salvation ; which they might accept or refuse at their own peril , without a new sin , though not without the hazard of being condemned and excluded out of the Kingdom of God , for their sins past . And therefore of Infidels St. Iohn saith not , John 3.36 the wrath of God shall come upon them , John 3.18 but the wrath of God remaineth upon them ; and not that they shall be condemned , but that they are condemned alreadie .

Stud.

What will not a man say rather then acknowledge himself in an errour , though the thing it self speaketh it ? Here 's mistake clap'd upon mistake : yet the scales of the Leviathan are not so close , but a blinde Archer may shoot between them . Have you not read what our Lord said to his disciples , after his resurrection ? Go ye into all the world b b S. Marc. 16.15.16 . and preach the Gospel to every creature . He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ; and he that believeth not shall be damned . The Author , also , to the Hebrews c c Heb. 4.11 . &c. exhorteth the Jews to believe in Christ ; and telleth them they shall , for ever , be excluded the Kingdom of heaven for their unbelief , ( it they persevere in it ) as their forefathers came short of Canaan , for the same reason . And although S. Iohn , in the places cited , doth speak in the present tense , yet in others of the same Chapter , he speaketh in the future : and in that very verse which you cite partially , concealing the words which are against you , he maketh their unbelief the cause of that severe decree which , already , was gone forth . V. 18. He that believeth on him is not condemned ; but he that believeth not is condemned already , because he hath not believed in the name of the onely begotten Son of God . V. 19. This is the condemnation , that light is come into the world , and men loved darkness rather then light , because their deeds were evil . V. 36. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life ; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth on him .

Mr. Hobbes .

There is , yet , behinde , a reason , whereby I prove that the doctrine of the Gospel is not made Law , by Christ or his Apostles . The Apostles power a a Lev. c. 42. p. 286. was no other then that of our Saviour , to invite men to embrace the Kingdome of God ; which they themselves acknowledged for a Kingdome ( not presen● , but ) to come ; and they that have no Kingdome can make no Laws .

Stud.

Christ , as Mediator , before his Resurrection , had power of making s●ronger Laws then any Soveraigns now upon Earth , for he had immediate Commission from God in Heaven . He that saw Christ b b John 1● ▪ 45.48 . ●0 ▪ saw him that sent him ; and whatsoever Christ spake , even as the Father said unto him , so he spake . And he that rejected him was to be condemned by his words at the last day . And Christ when his Father sent him , was design'd to be a King over Men and Angels , and for that purpose he came into the World : and he acquired this Kingship by way of Conquest in his resurrection from the dead : after which he spake c c Mat. 28.18 . unto his Disciples , saying , All power is given unto me i● Heaven and in Earth . Go ye , therefore , and ●●ach all Nation● , baptizing them in the name of the Father , and of the Son , and of the holy Ghost : teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you : and lo● , I am with you allwaies unto the end of the World . And when he ascended and sate on the right hand of God , he was inaugurated into his Heavenly Kingdom d d 1 Pet. 3● and became in truth a Divine Heroe , as those amongst the Heathens were in pretence ; and he at present raigneth , be the Earth never so rebellious , in the Oeconomie of his Church .

But to step , out of this , into our

Tenth Place of Discourse : if the commands of Christ and his Apostles , are not , also , Laws , without the civil Sanction ; what meaneth the common doctrine , in the Scripture , of suffering for the sake of Christianitie ? we are enjoyned to take up the Cross , and to follow Christ : Blessedness is promised to those who are persecuted for righteousness sake ; that suffer as Christians : and we are taught , that the way to preserve our lives , is to loose them , for a time , in the glorious cause of Jesus . Such commands and exhortations to dye rather then to obey unchristian injunctions , are delivered in vain ; yea they deserve the name of impious , if they be not a royal Law , without the stamp and allowance of civil Authoritie . It is then , in your opinion , not only our Priviledge but our duty , to save th● skin entire ; and , for the sake of outward safety , 〈…〉 to obey that which is truly Law , the Law of our Countrie , though we live amongst the Heathens ; rather then to follow dangerous , though Evangelical , Counsel .

Mr. Hobbes .

You may easily make conjecture of my sense , in the present case ; because I say the disobedient to the civil Powers do violate that which is properly Law . We are not obliged e e Lev. p. 27● . to obey any Minister of Christ , if he should command us to do any thing contrary to the command of the King , or other Soveraign representant of the Common-wealth whereof we are Members , and by whom we look to be protected .

Stud.

Were this truth , there ought not to have bin any zealous propagation of the Gospel ; but it should have expired , with the Author of it upon the Cross. For the Apostles sinned both against the Law of Nature , and Common-wealth , in exposing their lives to hazzard by preaching to the Gentiles ; if it was injustice to gain-say their Pagan Edicts . St. Thomas , then , though armed with Miracles to command assent , ought , either not to have wandred to the East-Indies ; or being there , not to have preached up a new Religion : and what he suffered , for that cause , was just , from the hand of Pagan Authority .

Mr. Hobbes .

Into what place a a Lev c. 27. p. 152. soever a man shall come , if he do any thing contrary to the Law , it is a crime . If a man come from the Indies hither , and perswade men here to receive a new Religion , or teach them any thing that tendeth to disobedience of the Laws of his Country , though he be never so well perswaded of the truth of what he teacheth , he commits a crime , and may be justly punished for the same , not only because his doctrine is false , but also because he does that which he would not approve in another , namely , that coming from hence , he should endeavour to alter the Religion there .

Stud.

A good man would be desirous of information , in matters of the greatest moment , from what quarter soever of the Heavens , the light shined into his understanding : and the question is only of the assurance which the Teacher can give , and not of the equity of his Practice . But to pass by that enquiry , I cannot refrain from asking you ( though I can guess at your opinion ) whether every Traveller is bound to profess the Religion of that Country into which he goeth ? I mean not this of meer prudence and caution , of an open countenance and close breast ; but of actual compliance with all forraign institutions ; so as to do as men do at Rome , or Constantinople , or Agra , if we were sojourners there .

Mr. Hobbes .

To this I shall , by and by , say somthing particularly ; but I will now , in general terms , affirm , that whosoever b b L viath . p. 114. entreth into anothers Dominion , is subject to all the Laws thereof ; unless he have a priviledge by the Amity of the Soveraig●s , or by special Licence .

Stud.

Seeing then the Romanists depend much upon Opus operatum ; if you returned but to Paris , the prayer of Monsieur Sorbiere would be heard , who , ( in his Voyage , when he weeded England ) desired you might become a good Catholick : this digression puts me in mind of a saying of B. Andrews , who , when it was told , that some of the Scotch-Clergie , were to be made Bishops ; advised , that they should be made Priests First .

But , what great motive is there to this compliance with the civil Power , of any perswasion ?

Mr. Hobbes .

That I hinted , just now , in saying , that by them we look to be protected .

Stud.

As if the favour of our Lord , the Prince of glory , towards his sincere , and faithful , patient , and undaunted subjects ( who will not be baffled out of truth , nor be ashamed of the Gospel ) were not of more value then the thin shelter of worldly-power ; which , if it could hide us under Rocks and Mountains , could not secure us from the stroke of him , who is , in the first place , to be feared : methinks , in the competition betwixt danger from men and disobedience to Christ , ( as in the case of such as are commanded by Heathen powers to sacrifice to Daemons ) it is easie to see on which hand we ought to turn : when there is before us , a Natural and a Moral evil , the Natural being the least , is therefore to be chosen : thus Socrates was obliged to prefer Death , before the acknowledgement of Polytheism ; and by such choice , we , in truth , preserve our selves , and most effectually obey that dictate of Nature : for we part with a short and unpleasant , for an happy and endless life ; and our health is eternally secured to us , by the effusion of the blood of Martyrdom : and , indeed , it hath been the sence of almost all mankind , derived from the fear of a God , or the excellent Nature of virtue , that the honest good is to be prefer'd before either the profitable , or the pleasant ; and that in such cases , the powers on Earth are not to be obeyed , though upon the refusal of their pleasure , they will glut their malice with the blood of men .

The three Children , menaced with the Furnace , chose rather to suffer the wrath of Nebuchadnezzar , then to do his will , in worshiping the golden Image ; and God Almighty declar'd his acceptance of such a refusal , whilst , by Miracle he delivered them . And the fact of those Parents who saved Moses , not being afraid a a Heb. 11.23 . of the commandment of Phara●h , who design'd all the Males of Israel for slaugh●er , is deliver'd down unto posteritie , with honour and applause , by the Author to the Hebrews : and in that little book of Martyrs , we read b b V. 35. of some , who scorn'd to accept of a temporal deliverance , when it was offer'd to them , upon the unworthie terms of Apostacie or recantation ; they having , in their eye , a greater reward . And it is recorded , rather to the same then reproach of the Eastern Magi , c c S. Mat. 2 ● &c. that in returning to their Countrie , they passed by , Herod , who had , with evil intent , commanded them to bring him word concerning the birth of the King of the Jews . If a Prince ( said d d Ta●ian . p 144. Tatianus ) commands me to deny my God , I will rather dye at his foot , then live to exercise his pleasure : and the holy Bishop Felix Africanus and his Associates ( men of great Integritie and constancie of mind ) would r●ther give up their own lives , then the copies of the new Testament which Dioclesian intended so to destroy , that it might not be found at all in the Annals of the World , that ever there was such a doctrine as Christianitie . The very Grecians , whose manner was to use prostration only in the Rites of their Religion , refused , what peril soever was imminent , to worship , in that fashion the King of Persia : and the Christians who somtimes payed a civil respect before the Images of the Emperours , chose rather to expose themselves to the crueltie of their Enemies , then to humble themselves , as in former daies , when Iulian added to them , the Images of false Gods : and such refusals are not destructive of Government and Societie , because the true Christian , doth not , in these cases , fill the World with clamours , or endeavour to raise tumults , but is led in imitation of his Saviour , like an innocent and weak Lamb , unto the slaughter e e O●ig . 〈◊〉 Cels. l 3. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

Mr. Hobbes .

For an f f Lev. c. 45. p. 362. unlearned man , that is in the power of an idolatrous King or State , if commanded on pain of death to worship before an Idol , he detesteth the Idol in his heart , he doth well , though if he had the fortitude to suffer death rather then to worship it , he should do better .

Stud.

The most obscure and illiterate person , doing outward worship to false Gods , though he sinneth not with such scandal as the wise and the renowned , who are apt to draw a multitude in●o the like snare , yet he is not to be acquitted as an innocent man . For , by such means , the Idolators who affright this man out of his Religion , do triumph over the honour of the true God , the procuring of whose dishonour is against Reason , which teacheth man , apart , to adore his Soveraign Lord , and in Societie , to be publick in his adoration , and not to conceal it under the Vizour of an ill-instructed Pagan who serveth Devils . Reason ( you a a Lev. p. 192. know ) directeth , not only to worship God in secret ; but also , and especially in publick , and in the sight of men : for without that , ( that which in honour is most acceptable ) the procuring others to honour him , is lost .

But to come to somwhat peculiar in Christianitie ; what if b b Lev. c. 42. p 271. a King or a Senate , or other Soveraign Person , forbid us to believe in Christ ?

Mr. Hobbes .

To this c c Ibid. I answer , that such forbiding is of no ef●ect ; because belief and unbelief never follow mens commands . Faith is a gift of God , which man can neither give , nor take away , by promise of rewards , or menaces of torture .

Stud.

But d d Ibid. what if we be commanded by our lawful Prince , to say with our tongue , we believe not ; must we obey such command ?

Mr. Hobbes .

Profession e e Ib●d. with the tongue is but an external thing , and no more then any other gesture whereby we signifie our obedience ; and wherein a Christian who holdeth firmly in his heart the faith of Christ , hath the same Liberty which the Prophet Elisha allowed to Naaman the Syrian . 2 Kings 5.17 . — Naaman believed in his heart ; but by bowing before the Idol Rimmon , he denyed the true God in effect , as much as if he had done it with his lips .

Stud.

In both these answers you miss-understand the Faith of the Gospel , which is not complete , unless the outward profession answereth to the inward act of assent : for the Church is a visible societie professing the Christian faith ; which men entered into by a visible sign ; in which are Officers of divers ranks ; in which there is a communion of visible symbols ; and he that chooseth only to have faith in his heart , renounceth his title of Member , in this spiritual Societie : our Saviour commanded his Disciples , that their light should shine before men . And St. Iohn f f John 12●42 , 43. upbraideth many of the chief Rulers , who believed on Christ , but , because of the Pharisees , did not confess him , lest they should be put out of the Synagogue : because they loved the praise of men more then the praise of God . Hear also what St. Paul saith unto the Romans : g g Rom. 10.9 , 10. If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Iesus , and shalt believe in thine heart , that God hath raised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved : for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness ; and with the mouth confession is made unto Salvation . For Naaman , who was a Gentile , amongst Gentiles , he had promised to sacrifice for the future , to none but the God of Israel ; and his incurvation was his civil Office towards the King , for which notwithstanding , he begg'd especial License . If this be not an answer , I refer you to Episcopius * * Episcop. Resp. ad 64. Quaest. p 59 , 60. who will not send you away unsatisfied .

But what can you h h Lev. p. ●71 . answer to our Saviours saying , Whosoever denyeth me before men , I will deny him before my Father which is in Heaven ?

Mr. Hobbes .

This i i Ibid. we may say , that whatsoever a subject , as Naaman was , is compelled to in obedience to his Soveraign , and doth it not in order to his own minde , but in order to the Laws of his Country , that action is not his , but his Soveraigns ; nor is it he that , in this case , denyeth Christ before men , but his Governour , and the Law of his Country .

Stud.

Instead of shewing the consistencie of your Doctrine with our Saviour's words , you tacitly accuse them , either of impertinency , or ill advice : For you make him to speak to this effect : Persecutions will arise a a S. Mat. 10.23 , 24 , 25. , but be willing to be treated like your Master , a man of sufferings , and acquainted with grief : and fear not the faces b b Vers. 20. and menaces of men ; but publish , in the openest manner , unto the World c c Vers. 27. , such Doctrines as you hear in private , whilst you sit at my feet . And do not so fear d d Vers. 28. those who persecute you , as to save your bodily life by the renouncing or suppressing of my Doctrine : but stand in aw of me , whom if ye disobey , ye forfeit life eternal . And remember that there is a God e e Verse● 29 , 30 , 31. , who , in such perilous times , will take care of you . If , therefore , you will own and publish my Faith , f f Verses 32 , 33. I will own you as my loyal Subjects , and make you happy in my Kingdom : if you will renounce my Faith for fear of men , I will not take notice of you , as appertaining to me , when you shall stand in the greatest need of protection . But , though I have said all this , yet upon second thoughts it seemeth reasonable that I excuse you , and condemn such bloudy Powers as shall , by persecution , compel you to blaspheme : 'T is they who force open your mouths , and move your tongues , and form the breath , and renounce me ; but you are all the time very sound Believers ; Believers in your hearts . And therefore , if you deny me before such powers , I will transfer the blame on them . So wretched is your Paraphrase , that it overthroweth the plainest and often-reapted letter of the Text. But supposing that our Saviour had not delivered himself thus expresly against your Doctrine ; how would you have reconcil'd your gross dissimulation with that sincerity which the Searcher of the hearts requireth ?

Mr. Hobbes .

If any man g g Lev. p. 271 , 272. shall accuse this Doctrine , as repugnant to true , and unfeigned Christianity ; I ask him , in case there should be a subject in any Christian Common-wealth , that should be inwardly in his heart of the Mahometan Religion , whether if his Soveraign command him to be present at the Divine-service of the Christian Church , and that on pain of death , he think that Mahometan obliged in conscience to suffer death for that Cause , rather then to obey that command of his lawful Prince . If he say , he ought rather to suffer death , then he authorizeth all private men , to disobey their Princes , in maintainance of their Religion , true or false : If he say , he ought to be obedient , then he alloweth to himself , that which he denyeth to another .

Stud.

In this reply , which toucheth not the proposed difficulty , you run out into two absurd suppositions . First , that a Christian Magistrate sheddeth the bloud of an Heathen for not frequenting the Christian Assemblies : next , that there is a parity of reason in the persecution of a Christian , and of a Mahometan ; and that the Alcoran may as much oblige the Conscience , as the Testament of our Lord .

But I must again ask you , what you g g Lev. p. 272. will say of all those Martyrs we read of in the History of the Church ? I hope you will not say that they have needlesly cast away their lives . Their bloud hath been more truely the seed of the Christian Church , then the opinion of Ghosts , Ignorance of second causes , Devotion towards what men fear , and taking of things casual for Prognosticks , have ever been ( as you affirm ) the seeds of natural Religion , a a Lev. p. 54. which is generated out of the inquisitive temper of men , who , by observing any excellent effect , are naturally led to search out the cause , and so proceed to the first Original . The Martyrs ( I say ) did , under Christ , preserve the Christian Faith , which if it had not been professed with the mouth , would have dy'd away , as a spark where no breath doth cherish it . Their memory is precious in the Church of God , and their names will be had in everlasting remembrance . They have been thought b b See Mr. Mede's works , p. 944. to have the priviledge of rising first , and , in that sence , to have a part in the first Resurrection . The Christians anciently kept their Assemblies at their Monuments : and the Church of Alexandria c c See Scal. de Em. Temp. Proleg . p. 18. beginneth its account , at the Aera of holy Martyrs . And yet you seem to disrespect them as imprudent Zealots , and to think their bloud was but so much water spilt upon the ground , a rash and useless effect .

Mr. Hobbes .

For answer hereunto d d Lev. p. 272. , we are to distinguish the persons that have been for that Cause put to death ; whereof some have received a Calling to preach , and profess the Kingdom of Christ openly ; others have had no such Calling , nor more has been required of them then their own Faith . The former sort , if they have been put to death , for bearing witness to this point , that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead , were true Martyrs ; for a Martyr is , ( to give the true definition of the word ) a witness of the Resurrection of Jesus the Messiah , which none can be but those that conversed with him on earth , and saw him after he was risen : for a witness must have seen what he testifieth , or else his testimony is not good . And this is manifest from Acts 1.21 , 22. of these men which have companyed with us-must one be a Martyr ( that is , a Witness ) with us of his Resurrection . Where we may observe that he which is to be a witness of the truth of the Resurrection of Christ — must be — one of his Original Disciples : whereas they which were not so , can witness no more , but that their Antecessors said it , and are therefore but witnesses of other mens Testimony ; and are but second Martyrs , or Martyrs of Christs witnesses .

Stud.

By this answer , wherein you approve of the Martyrdom of the Apostles , you grant unto me what I contend for , and contradict your former doctrine . For if the Apostles , drawing temporal deaths upon themselves , by preaching the Gospel , when they were enjoyned to desist , by the Civil Powers , are to be justified by us , and honour'd , for such resistance unto bloud ; then there was given to them a Superiour Law by Christ , by the vertue of which higher obligation they were free from active duty to the Civil Powers : otherwise , if without a Law , they had opposed the present Governours , they had been pernicious Rebels , and not honourable Defenders of the Faith . What you add concerning the word Martyr , is a weak nicety of Grammar , upon which the stress of this Cause doth not depend . For the Question is not , whether no man be properly call'd a Witness but an eye-witness , or he who beareth testimony of report received at second or third hand , but whether , at any distance of time , a man may not have sufficient ground to believe the Gospel ; and whether , after the hearty belief of it , he may with his mouth renounce it out of a tender regard to flesh and bloud .

To proceed in this Argument ; there is yet remaining another objection , to which , I know not what answer can be by you returned . It is the Argument used by St. Peter and St. Iohn , to the Rulers of the people and Elders of Israel , when , by menaces , they urg'd them to desist from the propagation of the holy Gospel : Whether it be right ( said those Apostles ) in the sight of God , to hearken unto you more then unto God , judge ye a a Acts ● . 19.

Mr. Hobbes .

If the command b b Lev. p. 321 , c. 43. of the Civil Soveraign be such , as that it may be obeyed , without the forfeiture of life eternal ; not to obey it is unjust — but if it be such as cannot be obeyed , without being damned to eternal death , then it were madness to obey it . — All men , therefore , that would avoid , both the punishments that are to be in this world inflicted , for disobedience to their earthly Soveraign , and those that shall be inflicted in the world to come for disobedience to God , have need to be taught to distinguish well between what is , and what is not necessary to eternal Salvation . — Now c c Lev. p. 322. all that is necessary to Salvation , is contained in two Vertues , Faith in Christ , and Obedience to Laws . Now — d d Ibid. Sect. 3. our Saviour Christ hath given us no new Laws , but counsel to observe those we are subject to ; that is to say , the Laws of Nature , and the Laws of our several Soveraigns : and for Faith , The e e Lev. p. 324. ( Vnum necessarium ) onely Article of Faith , which the Scripture maketh simply necessary to Salvation , is this , That Jesus is the Christ . Having thus f f Lev. p. ●30 . shown , what is necessary to Salvation ; it is not hard to reconcile our obedience to God , with our obedience to the civil Soveraign , who is either Christian or Infideld . If he be a Christian , he alloweth the belief of this Article , that Jesus is the Christ ; and of all the Articles that are contained in it , or are , by evident consequence , deduced from it ; which is all the Faith necessary to Salvation : and because he is a Soveraign , he requireth obedience to all his own , that is , to all the Civil Laws ; in which also are contained all the Laws of Nature , that is , all the Laws of God : for besides the Laws of Nature , and the Laws of the Church , which are part of the Civil Law , ( for the Church that can make Laws is the Common-wealth , ) there be no other Laws Divine . — And when the civil Soveraign is an Infidel , every one of his own subjects that resisteth him , sinneth against the Laws of God . — And for their Faith g g Lev. p. 331. it ●s internal , and invisible ; they have the Li●ense that Naaman had , and need not put themselves into danger for it . But if they do , they ought to expect their reward in Heaven , ●nd not to complain of their lawful Soveraign — In the mean time , they are to intend to obey Christ at his coming , but at present they are bound to obey the Laws of that Infidel King : all Christians are bound in Conscience ●o to do . — Thought is free b b Lev. p. 238. — but when it comes to confession of Faith , the private Reason must submit to the publick ; that is to say , to Gods Lieutenant .

Stud.

Instead of the resolution of this Que●y , when we are to obey God , rather then man , you shew that we may very well do both together ; and so ●ndirectly you accuse the Apostles of falshood or folly in their suggestion . And here again you repeat your errors , that Christ hath not made any new Laws , and that the Faith of a Christian is intire without , or contrary to profession ; and you suppose , what the experience of the World refuteth , that Infidel Kings command not sometimes against the Laws of Nature . Also , whilst here you remit the Martyrs , scoffingly , to heaven for a reward , you fall , unawares , into the mock of Iulian the Apostate , who amidst his persecution , us'd this taunt ; It becometh not you Christians to enjoy any thing in this world , for your Kingdom is in Heaven . But if such persons as suffer for Christianity , shall be rewarded in Heaven ; their constancie then was noble and excellent , whilst they chose trouble rather then base compliance ; and those who inflicted evils on them for doing what God approved , were unjust . If then you remit the Martyrs to Heaven , you send the civil Soveraigns , who shed the bloud of the Apostles for disobedience to their unrighteous Edicts , to a place of less refreshment .

Mr. Hobbes .

You have made your instance in the Apostles , of whose Martyrdom I approve , because of their Commission . For others , who hazard their lives for Christianity , I praise them not : he that is not sent a a Lev. p. 272. c. 42. ● & p. 273. to preach the fundamental Article , but taketh it upon him of his private Authority , though he be a witness , and consequently a Martyr , either primary of Christ , or secondary of his Apostles , or their Successors ; yet is he not obliged to suffer death for that cause ; because being not called thereto , 't is not required at his hands ; nor ought he to complain , if he looseth the reward he expecteth from those that never set him on work . None therefore can be a Martyr , neither of the first nor second degree , that have not a warrant to preach Christ come in the Flesh ; that is to say , none , but such as are sent to the conversion of Infidels .

Stud.

Every Member of the Christian Society is bound to profess the Gospel ; as hath been proved : and therefore a private man , though he hath not right , not having Commission to exercise the Offices of a Priest , yet hath he a command to own the truth , when he is adjur'd to confess of what faith he is ; not onely in relation to Christianity in general , but also in relation to the Doctrines of Moment in it , which sometimes the Christian Powers do erre in . And every person will , with readiness , make such profession , notwithstanding the terrours of the Civil Sword , who hath sworn in his heart and tongue Allegiance unto Christ ; who is sincere in his Religion ; who valueth his soul more then his body ; who is heartily perswaded of a life or death eternal , the latter of which is

Our eleventh Subject . Mr. Hobbes .

The maintainance b b Lev. p. 238. c. 38. of civil Society , depending on Justice , and Justice on the pow●r of life and death , and other less rewards and punishments , residing in them that have the Soveraignty of the Common-wealth ; it is impossible a Common-wealth should stand , where any other then the Soveraign , hath a power of giving greater rewards then life ; and of inflicting greater punishments then death . Now seeing eternal life is a greater reward then the life present ; and eternal torment a greater punishment then the death of Nature ; it is a thing worthy to be well considered , of all men that desi●e ( by obeying Authority ) to avoid the calamities of confusion and Civil War , what is meant , in holy Scripture , by life eternal , and torment eternal .

Stud.

What is then to be understood by eternal Torment , if we aright interpret the Holy Scripture ?

Mr. Hobbes .

I mean by these , such torments a a Lev. p. 345. as are prepared for the wicked in Gehenna , or what place soever , [ for a Season ] . These have been b b Leviath . p. 242 , 243 set forth by the Congregation of Gyants ; the Lake of fire ; utter darkness ; Gehenna , and Tophet ; which things are not spoken in a proper , but Metaphorical sence . Now where , or whatsoever , these torments shall be , I c c Lev. p. 345. Sect. 1 can find no where that any man shall live in torments everlastingly .

Stud.

In St. Matthew d d St. Mat. 25 last . the same Greek word , in the same sentence , is used in setting forth as well the happiness of the Righteous , as the punishment of the Wicked ; which therefore is to be construed as endless as the joy of the Pious , to the blessedness of whom the most daring Origenist hath not affixed a period .

Mr. Hobbes .

I confess the torments to be eternal ; but I am of opinion that the same persons do not eternally feel them . The Fire e e Lev. p. 345. Sect. last . or torment prepared for the wicked in Gehenna , ●ophet , or in what place soever , may continue for ever ; and there may never want wicked men to be tormented in them ; though not every , nor any one eternally . The Fire f f Lev. p. 245. c. 3● . prepared for the wicked , is an everlasting fire : that is to say , the estate wherein no man can be without torture , both of body and minde , after the Resurrection , shall endure for ever ; and in that sence the fire shall be unquenchable , and the torments everlasting : but it cannot thence be inferred , that he who shall be cast into that fire , or be tormented with those torments ▪ shall endure , and resist them so , as to be eternally burnt and tortured , and yet never be destroyed , nor dye .

Stud.

You have by this means , so very much allayed the heat of the everlasting burnings ( so far as it can be done by confidence in opinion ) that they are rendred almost as tolerable as a death by fire on earth . For the Epithet Everlasting , thus interpreted , cannot mightily affright a single person from evil manners , who considers that the Flame , how long soever it be continued in it self , shall scorch him but for a season . But God in holy Scripture threatneth every man with perpetual misery ; and where g g S. Mark 9.44 . it saith that the fire shall not be quenched , it saith also , not that The worm , but their worm , or remorse of conscience , dyeth not . Our Saviour also taught us h h S. Matt. 5 25 , 26. to make our Peace with God in this estate of Probation ; before we were hal'd to Prison ; where every one that cannot pay his deb●s to that Supreme Lord ( towards whom our obligations can scarce be cancelled in that state , where we are depriv'd of means , neglected by us in this life ) shall be chain'd to eternal Bondage . St. Iohn also saith , i i Rev. 20.10 . that the Beast and the false Prophet shall be tormented in the Lake of fire and brimstone , day and night , for ever and ever . The Fewel , it seems , shall be as eternal as the Flame .

Mr. Hobbes .

It seemeth k k Lev. p. 345. hard , to say , that God who is the Father of Mercies , that doth , in Heaven and Earth , all that he will ; that hath the hearts of all men in his disposing ; that worketh in men both to do and to will ; and without whose free gift a man hath neither inclination to good , nor repentance of evil , should punish mens transgressions without any end of time , and with all the extremity of torture , that men can imagine , and more .

Stud.

God hath so given such gifts to all , whom he will severely account with , that they are left without apology . And he will not seem an hard Master , if we have as due a regard to his Majesty and Goodness , both abused by us ; and to our own means , and wilful refusal of the better part , whilst he hath set before us life and death ; as we are wont to have to our own flesh and bloud ; seeing nothing burneth in Hell ( as St. Bernard noted ) besides the proper will of man .

But why to you of all men should this seem hard ? For you believe that the irresistible power of God , as such , doth justifie all things ; and a a Lev. p. 187. that the right of afflicting men at his pleasure , belongeth naturally to God Almighty ; not as Creator and gratious ; but as omnipotent .

This irresistible Power is urged by you , where it serveth your Hypothesis ; and where it yeildeth no advantage to your Cause , there you will have Mercy to succeed in its place . And this may be , more particularly observed , in a Section of your Book De Cive b b De Cive c. 4 p. 69. Sect. 9. . To the sixth Law of Nature ( saith that Book ) which teacheth that punishments respect the future , belong all those places of Holy Writ , which enjoyn the shewing of Mercy ; such as are ( Matt. 5.7 . ) Blessed are the merciful : for they shall obtain mercy . Lev. 19.18 . Thou shalt not avenge nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people . Now there are who think this Law so far from being confirmed , that they imagine it invalidated by the Scriptures : because there remaineth to the wicked eternal punishment after death , where there is no place either for amendment or example . Some resolve this objection , by saying , that God , who is under no obligation , referreth all things to his own Glory ; but that it is not lawful for man so to do : as if God would seek his glory , that is to say , please himself in the death of a sinner . It is more rightly answer'd , that the institution of eternal punishment was before sin , and respected this onely , that men might , for the future , be afraid of sinning .

It is , from this place , to be observed , that you once construed the phrases of Scripture , wherein it speaketh of eternal torments , with relation to the persons , and not the mere state of torture ; as also that you here advance not power , but plead for Mercy ; and lastly , that you abuse the veracity of God , by supposing him to scare the children of men , with such bug-bear threatnings , as shall never , upon their most enormous delinquencie , be put in execution .

But in what horrid place , and of what confounding quality , are the future torments , if they be not , to single persons eternal ? for I cannot but imagine that they are extreamly bitter , if they be but short . What then seemeth to you to be the place and state of the damned ?

Mr. Hobbes .

Gods enemies , and their torments after Judgement c c Lev. p. 242. , appear by the Scripture to have their place on eaath . And there the Reprobate d d Lev. p. 345 , 346. shall be in the estate , that Adam , and his Posterity were in after the sin committed ; saving that God promised a Redeemer to Adam , and such of his seed as should trust in him , and repent ; but not to them that should dye in their sins as do the Reprobate . And further — the wicked being left in the estate , they were in after Adams sin , may at the Resurrection live as they did , marry , and give in marriage , and have gross and corruptible bodies , as all mankinde now have ; and consequently , may engender perpetually , after the Resurrection as they did before .

Stud.

If all the wicked shall ( as you acknowledge a a Lev. p. 244. ) , be together raised up ; and put into Hell on earth ; if also their condition shall be such as to admit of Generation , eating and drinking ( the provisions for which require wide spaces upon earth , not at all possessed by the bodies of men ) and there be also required room ( as you assert ) for the followers of Christ ; it will trie the utmost of your Mathematick-skill , to finde place sufficient , for the bodies of all that have already lived , or shall live before the Universal Judgment . Some of no mean degree amongst the Learned b b See Dr. B's Pseud. Epid. p. 374. & ● have , by probable Rules , computed the number of men before the Floud ( who begat Sons and Daughters at a very great age ) ; and have found it to exceed much more then a thousand millions : insomuch , that the Floud may seem to have been almost as necessary in relation unto the numbers of people , as to the increase of their iniquities . And they observe how , in less then four hundred years after the Floud , there were Armies c c Of Ninus against the Bactrians consisting of 700000 Foot , 200000 Ho●se , 10600 Cha●i●●● Of Semira●is agai●st the Indians , of 1300000 Foot , 500000 Horse , 100●00 Chariots : Of Staurobates against her , consisting of a greater number . in the Eastern Countries , sufficient to leave nothing rising there besides the Sun . If therefore Tophet be on earth , let it not any more be taken up , as a Proverb , by us , That Hell cannot be satisfi'd , seeing it will be glutted with half the people for whom it is prepared .

But , methinks , if that be , in truth , the estate of the Reprobate , which you have described ; the literal Hinnom may seem to have been overspread with greater horror , then the mystical shall be ; and the unrighteous may dance and leap with joy in their very chains of darkness ; seeing they neither pinch extreamly at the present , nor shall be everlasting : there is nothing more Divine to voluptuous men , then to eat , and drink , and to exonerate nature , and to be immortal in their off-spring .

Mr. Hobbes .

You are too hasty in your reflexions : you mistake that for the full description of Hell , which I design'd for the easier part of it . I therefore tell you further , that they c c Lev. ● . 244. shall be punished with grief , and discontent of mind , from the sight of that eternal felicitie in others , which they themselves , through their own incredulity , and disobedience , have lost . And because such felicity in others is not sensible but by comparison with their own actual miseries ; it followeth that they are to suffer such bodily pains and calamities , as are incident to those , who not only live under evil and cruel Governours , but have also for Enemy , the eternal King of the Saints , God Almighty .

Stud.

But shall not there be Devils let loose upon those persons who have bin seduced by th●m from obedience to God! shall not they be deliver'd over to the Tormentors , who have not discharged their obligations towards him , and have such outward scourges superadded to the lash of remorse within ?

Mr. Hobbes .

For d d Leviath . p. 244. ●ect . 1. See Lev. p. 213. the Tormentors , we have their nature and properties , exactly and properly , delivered by the names of the Enemy , or Satan ; the Accuser , or Diabolus ; the Destroyer , or Abaddon : which significant names , Satan , Devil , Abaddon , set not forth to us any individual Person , as proper Names use to doe ; but only an Office or Quality ; and are therefore Appellatives . — Gods Kingdome was in Palestine ; and the Nations round about were the Kingdomes of the Enemy ; and consequently by Satan , is meant any earthly Enemy of the Church . [ You are therefore mistaken in the notion of Tormentors . Now that which completeth the misery of the damned is , that they shall dye again . ]

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That which you make the top of their calamitie , is to be reckoned as a priviledg , because it puts an end to their torment together with their being ; the continuance of which cannot make recompence for that misery with which in the real Hell , it will be oppressed : but whence is it proved , by you , that the last pain of the damned is such destruction ?

Mr. Hobbes .

I learn , from the Scripture a a Lev. p. 244. See p. 243. that amongst bodily pains , is to be reckoned also to every one of the wicked , a second death : for though the Scripture be clear for an universal Resurrection ; yet we do not read , that to any of the Reprobate is promised an eternal life . [ I know you will now salve your self by saying b b Lev. p. 332. ] that by the second and everlasting death , is meant a second , and everlasting life , but in torments ; a Figure never used but in this very case .

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The Figure in which we speak , whilest we express a great calamitie by death , is of common use , in relation to the incommodities of this present life : for nothing is more usual then to say , that to live is to be well . St. Paul with reference to his many troubles , said he dyed daily . And Grotius , somwhere c c Grotius in Apoc. 14.13 . expoundeth 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 by such , quibus vita haud vitalis . In Sophocles , you might have read these words ; — 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

That this , also , is the true meaning of the second death , appeareth to those who are aware that the phrase was borrowed by St. Iohn , from the Hebrew-Doctors ; with whom it was , and is , most frequent , to call the torments of Hell by that very name . Wherefore those words of David d d Psal. 49.11 ▪ He seeth that wise men die , are thus Paraphrased by the Caldee Paraphrast : He shall see wicked wise men , who die the second death , and are adjudged to Hell .

Having now attended to your Opinion concerning the Place and Estate of the damned ; methinks , it begetteth , in me , as feeble belief , as the Fables of Charon , and the River Styx , and the black Frogs therein , were wont to do in Iuvenal's daies , amongst the Romans ; whose very children , ( he saies ) unless they were so young as not to pay for their Bath , were apt to scoffe at such improbable stories .

But let us now understand ( in order to the dispatch of our Twelfth and last Head ) What , more successful doctrine you can deliver , concerning the felicities of the just . He that cannot paint a Devil well , is not likelie to shew masterie in the painting of an holy Angel : but whatsoever your description be of eternal life , I am ready to fix my eye upon it ; and if I espie reason , to approve it .

Mr. Hobbes .

In delivering my opinion concerning the future state , I will begin by telling you , that , e e Lev. p. 241. the Soul of man is not in its own nature eternal , or a living creature independent on the body ; and that no meer man is immortal , otherwise then by the resurrection in the last day , except Enoch and Elias . — But f f Lev p. 344. though there be no natural immortalitie of the Soul ; yet there is life eternal , which the Elect shall enjoy by grace .

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It hath bin , alreadie , proved , that there is , in man , a spiritual substance which immagineth , remembreth , reasoneth ; and that therefore naturally it endureth after the dissolution of that body from which it is , by such notorious marks , distinguish'd : neither doth it slumber , 'till the sounding of the last Trump , at the general resurrection . It is true , that without the assistance of Revelation we cannot , well understand that our withered bodies shall spring out of the dust : and therefore , with reference to the resurrection , the ancient Iews , in their Forms of Benediction a a Pococ● in no● . in Doct. Moy● . p. 149. celebrated the power of God above the ordinary Laws of Nature : and whatever hopes the Heathens may have , they cannot have firm assurance , that their Souls shall be permitted to enjoy that duration which they are , by nature capable of ; or that , if they shall be permitted to survive their bodies , they shall have a great , or endless , happiness . For when they consider that there is God , and that , how virtuous soever they have bin , yet , their own consciences bearing witness , they have , too often , transgressed his Laws ; they may be justly suspicious either of annihilation , or at best , of a low degree of felicitie : and this suspition will be encreased if , with you , they gaze at his irresistible power , and look not , with hope , upon his Philanthropie : and therefore such salvation , as signifieth the advancement of the Soul of man to the utmost height of blessedness , is not of Nature or humane merit , but of grace ; and an effect of the merits of our Lord , who having overcome death , did open the Kingdom of Heaven to all believers . But yet of this bounty we , in some measure , partake , if we dye as Christians , so soon as ever we have lay'd down this burthen of the flesh : and of this we are assured by Revelation ; especially , by that in the New Testament : therein we read , that our Saviour promised to the repenting Thief , that very day , a place in Paradise , that is , in some Region of happy Souls ; which the Jews were wont to call Paradise , or the Garden of pleasure . That , besides the bodily life , there is a Soul in man which cannot be touched by the sword , or utmost violence of our Enemies . That St. Stephen , in the very Article of death , commended his Spirit into the hands of Christ ▪ beseeching the same Jesus to receive it . That the dead , who dye in the Lord , are from henceforth , or b b Rev. 14 ▪ 13. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . jam nunc . Grot. i● loc . immediately in an happy estate . Neither can we , with tolerable sense , expound the Article of Christs descending into Hell , or into Hades , that is , the state of the dead ; as also his preaching to Spirits in prison ; unless we suppose him to have had an immaterial Soul , whereby his Spirit might be in the state of separate Spirits , as well as his body was in the state of dead bodies , their corruption excepted : for to mean All of the body , is to say in effect , twice over , that he was dead and buried ; and so to commit Tautology in the most compendious systeme of the Christian Faith ▪ Neither must we forget the wish of St. Paul , who desired to be dissolved that he might be with Christ ; esteeming that far better for his own Person , though his continuance in the world was of more advantage to the Christian church . Now it cannot but be imagined that S. Paul exspected , so soon as ever he had quitted this earthly Tabernacle , to be received by Christ , into the mansions prepared above : for seeing his inclinations were so poised betwixt the thoughts of the benefit of the Church , and the delay of his consummate happiness , that he knew not which way to turn the scale ; there is no doubt but he would have preferred the advantage of the Church , for which he would gladly spend , and be spent , before s●ch an Estate , wherein , for more then sixteen hundred years , he should not so much as think of Christ , or his holy Gospel , but be as if he had never bin .

Mr. Hobbes .

[ There are other places , perhaps more pertinent , to which I will return an answer . ] And first , c c Lev. p. 343 , 344. there are the words of Solomon ( Ecclesiastes 12.7 . ) Then shall the dust return to dust , as it was , and the Spirit shall return to God that gave it : which may bear well enough ( if there be no other Text directly against it ) this interpretation , that God only knows , ( but man , not ) what becomes of a mans Spirit , when he expireth : and the same Solomon , in the same book , ( Chap. 3. v. 20 , 21. ) delivereth the same sentence in the sense I have given it : his words are , All go ( man and beast ) to the same place ; all are of the dust , and all turn to dust again : who knoweth that the Spirit of man goeth upward , and that the Spirit of the beast goeth downward to the earth ? that is , none knows but God : nor is it an unusual phrase to say of things we understand not , God knows what , and God knows where . — But , what interpretation shall we give , besides the literal sense of the words of Solomon , Eccles. 3.19 . That which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts , even one thing befalleth them : as the one dyeth , so doth the other ; yea , they have all one breath ( one Spirit ) so that a man hath no preheminence above a beast , for all is vanity . By the litteral sense here is no natural immortalitie of the Soul .

Stud.

You would here impose upon me , by confounding the sense of those several verses , which are to be interpreted apart from each other . And that we may aright conceive the meaning of them ( and not say only , though perhaps with reason we may do it , I 'm sure with Authority a a Raimund Pug. Fid. p. 155. that Solomon here and in other places doth personate the Atheist ; ) it is fit that we observe how the Preacher , in this book , sets forth the beginning , progress , and ripeness of his disquisition , concerning the happiness of man . Wherefore in the begining of his enquiry , he setteth down his raw apprehensions : and he relateth , in the first and second Chapters , how he , once , thought folly equal with wisdom , and that there was nothing better then to eat and drink ; and what adventures and trials he made , towards the better understanding of what was good for the sons of men : and in this third Chapter , he declareth how full of mystery he found the workes of God ( v. 11. ) and how little was manifest , especially to sensual men , of the future state : but in the eleventh and twelfth Chapters , wherein he declareth his advanced judgement , and calleth men off from the world , to the thoughts of the day of account , and to the early remembrance of their Creator ; to the fear of God , and the observance of his commands ; he layeth it down as a positive doctrine ( a doctrine apt to promote such observance , fear , and remembrance ) which at first was delivered , by him , as a probleme , or as the mistake of worldly men , that when the wheel shall be broken at the Cistern , and the circle of our blood utterly disturbed , then the dust shall return to the earth as it was ; and the Spirit shall return to God who gave it .

But if the Spirit be the breath and life , and not an immaterial substance , why make you it so hard to know what becomes of it ; so that only God can understand it ? for might we not say , that the machine of the body is dissolved , the breath vanisheth in the soft air , the motion is gone from the carcasse into ambient bodies ? we might then , with equal admiration say of a Clock broken all to peices , and in rest ; God knoweth what is become of it ; for , in both instances , there is only a dissolution of the contexture of the parts , and the motion , convey'd to other portions of neighbouring matter .

Why , also , do you vary from the translation of the Hebrew copy ▪ in Chap. 3. v. 21. for instead of , Who knoweth the spirit of man that is ascending , and the Spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth ? You have thus rendred the words ; Who knoweth that the spirit of man goeth upward ? for there is great difference betwixt this saying , Who knoweth that Mr. Hobbes is a Mathematician ? and this , Who knoweth Mr. Hobbes , who is a Mathematician ? The former disposition of Solomon's words supposeth a Spirit , and the ascent of it , and withall , our ignorance of the nature of the Soul : the latter leaveth it doubtful whether the Spirit ascendeth or not . It is well ( though I believe you knew it not your self ) that the Seventie Interpreters a a Lxx ▪ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , &c. are , a little , on your side .

Mr. Hobbes .

But what is , on your part , to be said b b Lev. p ▪ 344. to those words of Solomon in Chap. 4. ver. 3. of Ecclesiastes ? Better is he that hath not yet been , then both they ; that is , then they that live or have lived ; which if the Soul of all them that have lived , were immortal , were a hard saying ; for then to have an immortal Soul , were worse then to have no Soul at all .

Stud.

To this , the easie truth is to be replyed , that the wise man preferreth a condition of not being ( if we suppose him speaking in his own Person ) before a life of misery : and doubtless it is better to have no Soul , then to have a Soul immortal , together with immortal grief : and the saying is common amongst Divi●es , that it had bin better for Dives to have had no tongue , then to have bin possessed of it , meerly as a subject , for the fury of the infernal flames to prey upon : and I think also , it is the natural sense of mankind . Wherefore though Iob was a man of great fortitude of spirit , and one who feared , by impatience , to offend God ; Yet when his calamities , as so many waves in thick succession , were ready to over-whelme him , he began to curse the day of his Nativitie .

Mr. Hobbes .

There is yet another place in the book of Ecclesiastes , which confirmeth my opinion of the state of the dead . It is said , c c Lev. p. 344. in Chap. 9. ver. 5. That the living know they shall dye , but the dead know not any thing ; that is , naturally , and before the resurrection of the body .

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For answer to this citation , I ●efe● you to Diodati , whose notes you have no reason to despise , seeing you have submitted the declaration of your judgement d d Lev. p. ●38 . to the Annotations of the Assembly , who pleased to transcribe so very many places out of the aforesaid Authour : observe therefore the context , and his interpretation , which I may represent to you in this Paraphrase . Ver. 3. By reason of this indifferency of events ( mentioned by Solomon , in the beginning of the Chapter ) worldly men dally with , 'till they die i● , their sins . ( Ver. 4. ) For whilst life doth last , the gate of hope , and repentance , is open ▪ though men make not use of this opportunity in order to their salvation . For a living dogg , that is to say , a great sinner alive , is happier whilst God grants to him life , and opportunitie of conversion ; then a lesser sinner ( compared to a Lyon , which is a more noble , and not so unclean a beast as a dogg ) who dyeth in his impenitencie , and so is past all remedy . ( Ver. 5. For the living know they shall die , and through the fear of death , may be induced to repentance , whilst there is space for it : but the dead know not any thing ; not in this sense , that their souls do loose all knowledge , conscience , or remembrance ; but in this , because it availeth them nothing to Salvation ; and they understand not now the things that belong to their peace , for they are , by the absence of opportunity , quite hidden from their eyes : neither have they any more a reward , set down for virtue , whilst a man liveth in this world , which is the place appointed for us to labour ▪ and run our race in : for the memory of them is forgotten ; God hath for ever cast them off , according to that of David a a Psal. 88.5 . — Like the slain that lye in the grave , whom thou remembrest no more : and they are cut off from thy hand . And this sense of the place is confirmed by the tenth verse , where Solomon presseth men to a speedie exercise of religion , in these words : Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do , do it with thy might ; for there is no work nor device , nor knowledg , nor wisdom in the grave whither thou goest .

Mr. Hobbes .

What answer have you to the words of Iob , b b Lev. p. 241. Chap. 14. ver. 7. There is hope of a tree , if it be cast down : though the root thereof wax old , and the stock thereof dye in the ground , yet when it senteth the water , it will bud , and bring forth boughs like a plant : but man dyeth and wasteth away , yea , man giveth up the ghost , and where is he ? And ( ver. 12. ) man lyeth down , & riseth not till the heavens be no more . But when is it , that the heavens shall be no more ? S. Peter tells us that it is at the general resurrection .

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It hath been thought by some , a sufficient answer to this place , to understand it of entire man , as he consisteth of soul and body ; seeing man is not , man ariseth not , ' though the soul existeth and ascendeth , before the consummate estate of both , in the great day of the Messiah . I know , also , that the Jews , c c Truth springing out of the Earth , p. 209 See Job 7. ●,10 . consider Iob as a Gentile , who had no assurance of a future state , and that he speaketh , in the seventh Chapter , as much against the resurrection of the body , as the immortalitie of the soul. As the cloud ( saith Iob ) is consumed and vanisheth away ; so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more . And there are many who expound the letter ( in the 19 Chap. and 25 , 26. verses ) of the restitution of Iobs body , tormented with worms , to soundness of health ; and of the blessings descending upon him , in his latter daies , even to the eclipsing the glories of his first posteritie .

Mr. Hobbes .

What need is there of answer upon answer in the present case ? for this doctrine of the natural immortalitie of the soul , which you so eagerly conted for , is d d Lev. p. 339. unnecessary to the Christian faith . For supposing that when a man dies , there remaineth nothing of him but his carcass ; cannot God that raised inanimated dust and clay into a living creature by his word , as easily raise a dead carcass to life again , and continue him alive for ever , or make him dye again , by another word ?

Stud.

If you attempt , thus , to explain the resurrection of entire man , you will be pressed with such a weighty inconvenience , as cannot , by the utmost strength of your wit , be ever sustained . For if man be not raised up by a reunion of his immaterial soul to the main Stamina of such a body as he , somtimes , had ; but meerly by the framing again , and moving , of such matter as he is supposed to have wholly consisted of , and by the help of which he hath done worthy , or shameful acts ; then either the same man , who obeyed or transgressed , is not raised up to an estate of reward or punishment ; or else he is raised with all the parts of matter which conduced to action , and appertained to him , almost from the cradle , to the grave , and is , therefore , in the last day , of such dimensions , that he may not only equal the antient Gyants of which we read in story , but likewise come nigh the bulk of those very mountains which they are said to have heaped up in defiance of H●aven .

Mr. Hobbes .

Well ; whatsoever the essence of man is , or whensoever any part of him is supposed to be happy ; it is most probable , that , at the last day , the place of heaven , shall be on earth . The a a Lev. c. 35. p. 216. kingdom of God in the writings of Divines , and specially in Sermons , and treatises of devotion , is taken most commonly for eternal felicity , after this life , in the highest heaven , which they also call the kingdom of glory ; and somtimes for ( the earnest of that felicity ) sanctification , which they term the kingdome of grace ; but never for the Monarchy , that is to say , the Soveraign power of God over any subjects acquired by their own consent , which is the proper signification of Kingdom . To the contrary , I finde the Kingdom of God to signifie , in most places of Scripture , a Kingdom properly so named , constituted by the votes of the people of Israel in peculiar manner ; wherein they chose God for their King by Covenant made with him , upon Gods promising them the possession of the land of Canaan — Now the Throne b b Lev. p. 240. See more to this purpose , in this page . of this our King is in Heaven , without any necessity evident in Scripture , that man shall ascend to his happiness any higher then Gods footstool the earth .

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There is no need of the consent of men , in the right notion , of the Kingdom of God ; for the Lord is King , be the people never so unquiet . Also , there is nothing more frequent , in the New Testament , then the notion of Gods Kingdom of Grace in the dispensation of the Gospel ; and of glory , in the highest Heavens . And for the latter , we pray in the second petition of that Form which our Lord taught us ; and the former we acknowledge in the Doxologie . The holy Baptist , being the fore-runner of the Christ , preached unto the Jews ( who though they justifi'd themselves at present by the works of the Law , yet held repentance necessary to the reception of the Messiah ) the Doctrine of Penance ; adding this reason , because the kingdom of heaven was at hand : and this had been an improper Doctrine , if the Messiah , as you dream , was not to have a Kingdom , till after more then sixteen hundred years . Our Saviour , therefore , when he preached ( as his Fore-runner had done ) that Doctrine of Repentance ; he us'd not the same phrase , Repent , for the kingdom of heaven is at hand ; but he said , c c Matt. 4. ●7 . See Matt. 12. ●8 . Repent , and believe the Gospel , that is , forsake sin , and enter into the Kingdom of the Messiah , by Grace . Our Lord , also ( in the twelfth Chapter of St. Matthew ) proveth , by his great power over Satan and the Kingdom of darkness , that the Kingdom of the Messiah , was then come . And he declared d d St. John 3 5. That Baptism was a Sacrament of entrance and admission into the Kingdom of the Gospel . And he e e Joh. 12.13 . receiv'd the Hosannah's of the people , who saluted him as that King of Israel , who came unto them in the name of the Lord . And when he was asked f f Luk. 17.20 , 21. by the Pharisees , when the Kingdom of God should come , he answered ; The Kingdom of God is within you ; that is , it is already come , it is g g' Ev 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Luk. 1.28 . Inter Mulier . amongst you . The further manifestation of his Kingdom , he foretold , in prophesying of his coming to take vengeance on the bloudy Jews , by his scourges , the Romans , in the destruction of Ierusalem : the History of which , as it standeth in Iosephus , if it be duly compared with the predictions of our Lord , is sufficient to stop the widest mouth of profaneness ; and to hold up a powerful light against the dim Ey-balls of the most forsaken Atheists . To this the words of St. Mark have relation , in the ninth Chapter , and first Verse : Verily I say unto you , that there be some of them that stand here , which shall not taste of death , till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power .

Mr. Hobbes .

Those words ( alledged h h Lev. p. 341 , 342. by Beza long ago ) if taken grammatically , make it certain that either some of those men that stood by Christ at that time , are yet alive , or else that the Kingdom of God must be now in this present world . — But yet if this Kingdom were to come at the Resurrection of Christ , why is it said , Some of them , rather then All ? for they all lived till after Christ was risen .

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Christ , at his Resurrection , had vindicated to himself , by way of conquest over Death and Hell , this spiritual Kingdom ; but the manifestation of it , in power , was displayed in the desolation of the City of Ierusalem . And because ( for instance ) St. Iohn liv'd , to see the triumph of Christ , over his bloud-thirsty Enemies , though all the Apostles did not ; there was , therefore , reason for saying , Some of them , rather then , All.

Mr. Hobbes .

If a a Lev. p. 342. it be lawful to conjecture at the meaning of the words , by that which immediately follows , both here , and in St. Luke , where the same is again repeated , it is not unprobable , to say they have relation to the Transfiguration , which is described in the Verses immediately following . — And so the promise of Christ was accomplished by way of Vision .

Stud.

You are to look backward and not forward : for the words do manifestly relate to those of the eighth Chapter , where our Saviour had commanded the embracers of his Gospel to take up the Cross ; and promised that , by their constancie in their Christian Profession , they should save their lives ; whilst , others , who would endeavour to preserve life by denying the persecuted faith , should be destroyed : and so it came to pass , when Gallus , even against the reason of State , did raise the Siege before Ierusalem ; the Christians and convert-Jews , escapeing , whilst a door was open , unto the Mountains , and into the City Pella ; and not remaining 'till Titus , some moneths after , renewed the Siege . After this exhortation to constancie , and promise of deliverance , our Saviour , threatned that he would be ashamed of such , who should refuse to confess him before men , at his coming , in the glory of his Father , with his holy Angels : which coming with Angels , and open rejection of cowardly spirits , ( importing their present claim , and his refusal ) agreeth not to his Transfiguration , which was transacted in secret with some of the Disciples , and the apparition of Moses and Elias . — There is therefore reason for Divines , to insist upon a kingdome of Christ , alreadie come , a kingdom of the Gospel : neither want they reason on their side , when they affirm , that the kingdom of glory is in the highest Heavens ; and not on earth : which if men rise the same they were when they acted in the present world ( retaining all their parts , howsoever new-moulded , ) then according to your Hypothesis , which conceiveth man to be wholly material , the whole earth will be little enough to give the Blessed space , wherein to move with pleasure ; and we shall be as much in the dark for the place of the damned , as the place it self is said to be .

Our blessed Saviour hath assur'd us , that we shall , in the Resurrection , be like the Angels . And St. Paul hath , also , informed Christians , that they shall be indued with Coelestial Bodies , when they have put off these earthly Sepulchres in which their nobler mindes lay entombed ; and that this body of flesh and bloud ( for of that , is his whole discourse * * St. Hieron . in Esai . c. 24. p. 102. Caro & sanguis reg. Dei non possidebunt . Non quod , secundum haeriticos , dispereat natura corporum , sed quod corruptivum hoc induat incorruptionem , &c. and not of any moral body , of sin and corruption ) shall not inherit the Kingdom of God . And from hence Athenagoras b b Athenag . p. 35. hath been taught to say , that in the Resurrection , we shall not be as flesh , though we bear flesh about us . Now this Angelical , Coelestial Body , seemeth very unagreeable to the condition of Inhabitants upon earth : neither had innocent Adam such a body in Paradise . And it is , also , to be noted , that the Blessed cannot , by any means enjoy such Coelestial Bodies , according to the principles by you delivered ; and of this I , above , have given some intimation . For if man be onely a piece of well-disposed matter , and is devoyd of an immaterial soul , upon the permanent oneness of which dependeth , chiefly , his individuation , he is no more the same person upon so great an alteration made in the contexture of the body , then a spire of Grass is the same with part of the flesh of an Ox , into which after digestion , it is transform'd .

But why doth it seem to you incredible , that holy men shall be caught up with Enoch , and Elias , and St. Paul , and enjoy their happiness in Heavenly Regions , when there are so many places of Scripture which look that way ?

Our blessed Lord a a Matt. 5.12 . administreth comfort to such as bear his Cross , by telling them that their reward is great in Heaven . And he adviseth b b Matt. 6.19 , 20 , 21. and Luke 12.33 . all his followers , to lay up for themselves treasures , not on earth , but in the heavens , that their hearts may with the greater facility be lifted up , by Divine and Heavenly Meditation . And c c Joh. 14.1 , 2 , 3. he spake these words of consolation to his Disciples who began to be , most deeply concerned , at the thoughts of his departure : Let not your heart be troubled : ye believe in God , believe also in me . In my Fathers house are many mansions ; if it were no : so , I would have told you . And if I go and prepare a place for you , I will come again , and receive you unto my self , that where I am , there ye may be also . This , then , was the Doctrine of Christ ; as also of his Apostles . St. Paul delivereth this Doctrine with much confidence , saying d d 2 Cor. 5.1 . , We know , that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved , we have a building of God , an house not made with hands , eternal in the heavens . And e e Col. 1.5 . he blesseth God for the faith of the Colossians ; and for the hope which was laid up for them , in the Heavens . And he comforteth the Thessalonians f f 1 Thess. 41.6 , 17. , after this manner : The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout , with the voice of the Arch-angel , and with the trump of God : and the dead in Christ shall rise first : then we which are alive , and remain , shall he caught up together with them in the clouds , to meet the Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with the Lord . The Author , also , of the Epistle to the Hebrews g g Heb. 10.34 . , extolleth the patience of the afflicted Converts , and likewise insinuateth the great Reason which they had to take joyfully the spoiling of their earthly goods , because they had in Heaven a better and enduring substance .

Mr. Hobbes .

I have , with much patience , attended to your citations : there is reason that now you should listen to such as on my side , may be produced . We finde h h Joh. 3.13 . Lev. p. 240 , 241. written in in St. Iohn , That no man hath ascended into heaven , but he that came down from heaven , even the son of man that is in heaven — yet Christ was then not in Heaven , but upon the earth . The like is said of David ( Acts 2.34 . ) where St. Peter , to prove the Ascension of Christ , using the words of the Psalmist i i Psal. 16.10 . , Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell , nor suffer thine holy One to see corruption , saith , they were spoken ( not of David , but ) of Christ ; and to prove it , addeth this reason , For David is not ascended into Heaven . But to this a man may easily answer , and say , that though their bodies were not to ascend till the general day of Judgement , yet their souls were in Heaven , as soon as they were departed from their bodies ; which also seemeth to be confirmed by the words of our Saviour k k Luk. ●0 . ●3 , 38. who proving the Resurrection out of the words of Moses , saith thus , That the dead are raised , even Moses shewed , at the bush , when he called the Lord , the God of Abraham , and the God of Isaac , and the God of Iacob . For he is not a God of the dead , but of the living ; for they all live to him . But if these words be to be understood onely of the immortality of the soul , they prove not at all that which our Saviour intended to prove , which was the Resurrection of the body , that is to say , the immortality of man . Therefore our Saviour meaneth that those Patriarchs were immortal ; not by a property consequent to the Essence , and Nature of Mankinde ; but by the Will of God , that was pleased of his meer Grace , to bestow eternal life upon the faithful . And though at that time the Patriarchs , and many other faithful men were dead , yet , as it is in the Text , they lived to God ; that is , they were written in the Book of Life with them that were absolved of their sins , and ordained to life eternal at the Resurrection .

Stud.

Our Lord design'd to prove a future state , against the Sadduces , who denyed , not onely the Resurrection of the body , but likewise the existence of Angel or Spirit : and the words 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , do not always imply the raising of the body ; but , being used without the addition of flesh or body , do usually denote the future life , and the awakening , and advancing of the Soul ; or the conserving or keeping of it alive ; as God is said to have raised up Pharaoh , that is , to have kept him still alive a a Vorst . in Rom. 9 17. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Hoc es● . feci ut restares , vel superesles . sec. Hebr. itaque sensus est , Nolui ●● exscindere , sed potius reservare . And whereas you suggest , that the Patriarchs were alive onely by destination ; it is an exposition derived by you , from your Hypothesis , that man is wholly mortal , and not from the letter of the words , where Christ speaketh in the present , and not the future time ; affirming that the Patriarchs live already , and not that they shall be awakened unto life , after many hundreds of years .

Mr. Hobbes .

A second place is b b Lev. p. 239. that in St. Paul ( 1 Cor. 15.22 . ) For as in Adam all dye , even so in Christ shall all be made alive — Now , if as in Adam , all dye , that is , have forfeited Paradise , and eternal life on earth ; so in Christ all shall be made alive ; then all men shall be made to live on earth ; for else the comparison were not proper .

Stud.

That Adam , if he had remained obedient , should have lived eternally upon earth , together with all the race of men to have been produced out of his loyns ( to whom this earth would , at last , have denyed Elbow-room ) is a conceit of yours which reason doth not favour . For the first man was of the earth earthy , he was sustained by corruptible food ; he was design'd for propagation before his fall ; which things seem to argue a mortal nature , and are , by our Saviour , excepted from the condition of those who shall enjoy eternal blessedness . And though it was said to him , that in eating the forbidden fruit he should dye the death ; that argueth thenceforth a necessity of dying and denyeth not a capableness of dying formerly : and though God Almighty could have sustain'd his mortal nature for ever upon earth , yet there is ( as I think ) no promise of it in Holy Writ : and whilst we consider the future estate of blessed men , described in Scripture ; there is some reason for us to believe , that he should have rather been translated to an Heavenly Paradise , then to have dwelt , for ever , in the Eden below .

Neither was it the business of the Apostle , in this Text , to determine any thing of the place , but to set forth the priviledge of Believers , by the means of Christ , at the last day . The meaning of the Apostle , who speaketh here of those that are Christs , seems no other then this . As all who came from Adam were obnoxious to death , and could not , naturally , claim the priviledge of a Resurrection to life eternal : So all who believe in the Messiah shall not rot for ever in the grave , but be raised up to everlasting happiness . To this sense agree both Crellius , and Vorstius , whom I , the rather , name to you , because they were men of singularity in conceit , and such as stepped out of the beaten Road of Divinity , which the Orthodox believe the truest and safest way . In the Paraphrase of this comparison , All of one kinde , is answered by All of the other kinde , and death by life : And therefore there is no impropriety in the comparison , though , in other particulars , the things compared disagree . The main scope of the Apostle , in setting forth the advantage of Believers at that day , by Christ , doth justifie the similitude , though the place of life be not the same to all the Sons of Adam which was possessed by that Root of mankinde . Parables ( saith Salmeron , who wrote of them ) are like to swords ; the Hilts and Scabbards of them are variously wrought , but it is the Edge whereby they ●o execution .

Mr. Hobbes .

Notwithstanding what hath been talk'd , I still maintain that c c Lev. p. 345. the Elect after the Resurrection shall be restored to the estate , wherein Adam was before he had sinned : [ and that the place shall be on earth , and more particularly at and about Ierusalem ] . Concerning b b Lev. p. 246. the general salvation , because it must be in the Kingdom of Heaven , there is great difficulty concerning the place . On one side , by Kingdom ( which is an estate ordained by men for their perpetual security against Enemies , and want ) it seemeth that this Salvation shall be on earth : for by Salvation is set forth unto us , a glorious reign of our King , by conquest ; not a safety by escape : and therefore there where we look for Salvation , we must look also for Triumph ; and before triumph ; for victory ; and before victory , for battle : which cannot well be supposed , shall be in heaven — and it is evident by Scripture , that Salvation shall be on earth , then , when God shall reign ( at the coming again of Christ ) in Ierusalem ; and from Ierusalem shall proceed the Salvation of the Gentiles that shall be received into Gods Kingdom .

Stud.

In this speech of yours , there is a threefold error , easily confuted and broken in sunder . First , you say the Elect shall be in the estate of innocent Adam ; and you would have comparison answer comparison , as face answereth face . Yet our Saviour saith , That the elect shall neither eat , drink , nor marry . Secondly , you suppose a War in the estate of the heaven on earth ; and after that victory : the former of which , is inconsistent with that uninterrupted peace which the Scripture ascribeth to that estate ; and the latter is meant of Christ the Captain of our Salvation conquering death ; in behalf of Believers , by dying , and arising again , and triumphing over death in ascending and reigning at Gods Right-hand . Wherefore St. Paul saith a a 1 Cor. 15.55 , 56. O death , where is thy sting ? O grave , where is thy victory ? And , again , Thanks be to God which giveth us the victory , through our Lord Iesus Christ . Neither ( in the third place ) do you speak consistently with your self , when you mention Ierusalem as the Metropolis of Heaven . For blessedness being , by you , supposed the recovery of the estate lost in Adam , the chief seat of it ought , by you , to have been fixed in the Region of Eden ; which , where it is , those Atheists who scoff at the story of Adam , may be instructed , both in relation to their knowledge and manners , by an obscure , but yet most learned b b Mr. Carver of the scituation of the terrestrial Pa●adise . Geographer and Divine .

Mr. Hobbes .

Will you suffer me to proceed in proving that the future estate of Gods subjects shall be upon earth , & particularly at Ierusalem ?

Stud.

You shall not be unseasonably interrupted .

Mr. Hobbes .

That it shall be on earth is proved from a third place c c Lev. p. 239. , Rev. 2.7 . To him that overcometh I will give to eat of the tree of Life , which is in the midst of the Paradise of God . This was the Tree of Adams eternal life , but his life was to have been on earth .

Stud.

You here mistake ( as many have done in attempting to unfold the Revelation ) this Book of Mysteries which representeth , Allegorically , to our senses , the things in Heaven , by patterns on earth . There is a Paradise not upon earth ; an entrance into which our Saviour promised to the relenting and believing Malefactor , that very day upon the Cross. Besides , the meer letter of the Text fixeth the chief Seat of Heaven in Eden , not in Ierusalem .

Mr. Hobbes .

To my opinion concerning the Heavenly Ierusalem on earth , seemeth d d L●v. It. to agree that of the Psalmist ( Psal. 133.3 ) Vpon Zion God commanded the blessing , even life for evermore : for Zion , is in Ierusalem , upon earth .

Stud.

This blessing is meant of temporal long life which God promised , so especially , to the obedient , in the Land of Canaan : neither cannot it ( with reason ) be interpreted of a life eternal ; for David saith , in the last place , that God did there command a blessing . Besides , though Zion was at Ierusalem ; yet Hermon , which is first named , was on the other side of Iordan , on the utmost part of the holy Land Ea●tward .

Mr. Hobbes .

My opinion seemeth , again , to be confirmed a a Lev. p. 239. by St. Iohn , ( Rev. 21.2 . ) where he saith , I Iohn saw the holy City , new Ierusalem , coming down from God out of heaven , prepared as a bride adorned for her husband . And again , vers. 10. to the same effect ; as if he should say , The new Ierusalem , the paradise of God , at the coming again of Christ , should come down to Gods people from heaven , and not they go up to it from earth .

Stud.

Heaven is the Ierusalem above , which the Patriarchs sought b b Heb. 11 10 , to 16. in contra-distinction to Canaan below : of this Ierusalem above , St. Paul saith c c Gal. 4.25 , 26. that it is free that is , typed by Sarah the free-woman , and cannot but be free from Enemies seeing God is the King of it ) and that it is the mother of us all ; that is , the Gospel came thence immediately by Christ , and not , as the law , by the mediation of an Angel . Our original , as Christians , we owe to heaven , and thence are we nourished ; and preserved by the divine grace : and to the revelation of this Ierusalem Christians attain , by the preaching of the Gospel , which is a dispensation of more clearness and comfort then the Law d d See Heb. 1.12 , to 258. And the new Ierusalem descending is a type of Heaven in a glorious estate of the Christian Church on earth ; the commencement of which hath much puzled those who have spent their studies about the great Millenium . But this new Ierusalem descended is not to be esteemed the estate of just men made perfect , because it is said that the e e Rev. 21.24 . Nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it : and also that after the thousand years , wherein the Martyrs are thought to raign with Christ , in the new Ierusalem below ; the devil f f Rev. 20.7 , 8 , 9. shall be loosed and go out to deceive the Nations , and with them , as Enemies in battel array , to encompass the holy City : which things are improperly ascribed to a state of entire joy , in the life eternal , of the saved in the Ierusalem above . If then as Mr. Mede affirmeth g g M. Medes in Clav. Apoc. par. 2. p. 534.5 . and attempteth to prove ) the new Ierusalem Syncronizeth with the seventh Trumpet or Interval from the destruction of the beast , and supposeth afterwards a loosing of Satan , it cannot be understood of the highest heaven , or the consummate happiness of man .

Mr. Hobbes .

[ There are behind , divers places in the Prophets , in order to the evading of whose force , you will much perplex your understanding : and when I have once produced them , I shall then have done drawing , at my end , of this Saw of disputation . ]

How good soever b b Lev. p. 246 ▪ 247 , c. 38. the Reason , before alleadged , may b● , I will not trust to it , without very evident places of Scripture . The state of Salvation is described at large , Isaiah 33. ver. 20 , 21 , 22 , 23 , 24. Look upon Zion , the City of our solemnities ; thine eyes shall see Ierusalem a quiet habitation , a tabernacle that shall not be taken down ; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed , neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken . But there the glorious Lord will be unto us a place of broad Rivers , and streams , wherein shall goe no galley with oars ; neither shall gallant ship pass thereby . For the Lord is our Iudge , the Lord is our Law-giver , the Lord is our King , he will save us . Thy tacklings are loosed ; they could not well strengthen their ma●t ; they could not spread the sail : then is the prey of a great spoil divided , the lame take the prey , and the ●nhabitants shall not say I am sick ; the people that shall dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity . In which words we have the place from whence salvation is to proceed , Ierusalem , a 〈…〉 ; the eternity of it , a Tabernacle that 〈…〉 : be taken down , &c. the Saviour of it , the Lord , their Judge , their Law-giver , their King , he will save us ; the Salvation , the Lord shall be to them as a broad mote of swift waters , &c. The condition of their enemies , their tacklings are loose ; their masts weak , the lame shall take the spoyl of them . The condition of the saved , the inhabitant shall not say , I am sick : and lastly , all this comprehended in forgiveness of sin ; the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity . By which it is evident that Salvation ( as I said ) shall be on earth , then , when God shall reign ( at the coming again of Christ ) in Ierusalem ; and from Ierusalem shall proceed the salvation of the Gentiles that shall be received into Gods kingdom : as is also more expresly declared by the same Prophet , Chap. 65.20 , 21. And they ( that is , the Gentiles who had any Jew in bondage ) shall bring all your Brethren for an offering to the Lord , out of all Nations , upon Horses , and in Charrets , and in Litters , and upon Mules , and upon swift beasts , to my holy Mountaine , Ierusalem , saith the Lord , as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord : & I will also take of them for Priests , and for Levites , saith the Lord . Whereby it is manifest , that the chief seat of Gods kingdom ( which is the place from whence the salvation of us that were Gentiles , shall proceed ) shall be Ierusalem : and the same is also confirmed by our Saviour , in his discourse with the woman of Samaria , concerning the place of Gods worship ; to whom he saith , Ioh. 4.22 . That the Samaritans worshipped they knew not what , but the Jews worship what they knew , for salvation is of the Jews , ( ex Iudaeis , that is , begins at the Jews : ) as if he ●hould say , you worship God , but know not by whom he will save you , as we do , that know it shall be by one of the tribe of Iudah , a Iew , not a Samaritan : and therefore also the woman not impertinently answered him again , We know the Messias shall come . So that which our Saviour faith , Salvation is from the Iews , is the same that S. Paul sayes ▪ ( Rom. 1.16 , 17. ) The ●●spel is the power of God to salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Iew first ●nd also to the Greek : for therein is the righte●●sness of God revealed from faith to f●ith ; from the faith of the J●w , to the faith of the Gentile . In the like sense the Prophet Ioel describing the day of judgement ( Chap. 2.30 , 31. ) that God would shew wonders in heaven and in earth , blood and fire , and pillars of s●●ak ; the Sun shall be turned into darkness , and the Moon into blood , before the great and terrible day of the Lord come ; he add●th , ver. 32. And it shall come to pass , that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord , shall be saved : for i● mount Zion , and in Ierusalem shall be Salvation . And Obadiah ver. 17. saith the same , Vpon mount Zion shall be deliverance , and there shall be holyness , and th● h●use of Jacob shall possess their possessions , that is , the poss●ssions o● the heathen ; which possessions he expresseth most particularly in the following verses , by the mount of Esau , the land of the Philistin●s , the fields of Ephraim , of Samaria Gilead , and the Cities of the South ; and concludes with these words , The kingdome shall be the Lords . All these places are for salvation , and the kingdome of God ( after the day of judgement ) upon earth .

Stud.

It is manifest that Isaiah , in those places , meaneth the salvation from Senacherib & the Assyrians wrought by God himself , in the daies of Hezekiah ; whilst the Jews relyed upon Sethon , who deceiv'd them , hoping that the As●yrians and they weakning each other , his strength might be the better promoted against both . The Prophecy of Ioel concerneth , literally , those times , when th● Caldeans , by sword and fire , destroyed Ierusalem , at which season , ( according to the height of the prophetick style ) the very face of the heavens ( by reason of the flames , and smoke , and streams of blood ) were alter'd , to the amazement of common spectators . It seemeth also a type of the destruction of Ierusalem by Titus . The saved , V. 32. were the captives reserved alive , a remnant design'd by God for the continuance of his Church . Obadiah is to be understood a a See 2. Chron. 28.9.16 , 17. &c. of the destruction of the Edomites , and of the aforesaid salvation from the Assyrians . The places in S. Iohn , and S. Paul , relate to the beginning of the Gospel , & not to the beginning of the kingdome of glory b b Luk. 24.47 . Rep. & rem . to be preached to all — beginning at Jerusalem Acts 13.46 . — the word first spoken to you — the Messiah according to the flesh , arising from that Nation ; and the Gospel being first offered to th●m . You should have done well to have added those other words in St. Iohn ( V. 21. ) The hour cometh & now is when ye shall neither in this mountain , nor yet at Jerusalem worship the Father . You have , for the serving your hypothesis erred most grosly in these your last interpretations of holy writ : & I cannot but pity you , whilst I perceive you , in gloriously , stumbling , when you are just stopping out of this disputation . Let no man , hereafter , honour you with the name of Philosopher , who findeth you no happier at the interpretation of Nature , then of the holy Bible ; into the inward sense of which you enter not , by any expedite unlocking of its mysteries ; being resolved to force a way , through it , to your own novel conceits . But at this , I am not to be astonished : for there is so much learning , and so much attention required to the true understanding of divers sections of holy writ ; that if a man hath not made it much his business , to study , and meditate , about that true and concerning part of Antiquity , to compare text with text , and reading with reading , and sacred history with profane , his thoughts will scarce be worth the writing down upon the most neglected piece of paper . Good Sir be wise to sobriety ; handle the Scripture with more reverence and care ; be not rashly busie in relation to the things of the Altar , for there is a burning coal , ready , always , to stick to a profane finger , which will endanger somthing of greater price then your reputation .

Mr. Hobbes .

You your self have not examined a a An Imitation of his conclus of Stigmal , p. 31. the Scriptures to the bottom : therefore you perhaps may be , but are not yet , a good Divine . I would you had but so much Ethicks , as to be civil : but you are a notable expositor , so fare you well , and consider what honor you doe to the University of which you have bin a member ; and what honor you do to Corpus Christi Colledge , by your divinity ; & what honor you do to your Degree , with the manner of your language : & take this counsel along with you ; Think me no more worthy of your pains ; you see how I have fouled your fingers .

Stud.

Nay , if the scene be so changed , that we must rail and quarrel instead of debating matters with sober reason , it is time to have done ; the world having long since , had enough of passion and impertinent noise .

ERRATA .

IN ●pist . Ded. lin. 6. for owe , read ow. pag. 6. lin. 11. for extemporanious read extemporary .

●n the Table . Mr. Hobbes very often printed for Mr. Hobbes's . p. 7. l 2. f. doctor r. doctrine . l. 21. after trifleth , add a period . l. 25. f. temperance r. nature . p. 9. l. 22. after table , add a period . p. 12. l. 22. after on earth , a comma .

In the Book . p. 4. l. 17. for solicited r. selected . l. 30. for Fire r. Five . p. 5. l. 19. for Rostius r. Roscius . p. 6. l 14 : for the Confident r. your Friend . p. 10. l. 22. after God , a period . p. 14. l. 2. for wine r. wind . p. 14. in Marg. after part 2. p. add 190. & l 14. & 21. p. 22. l. 1. & l. 22. & p. 27. l. 25. & p. 33. l. 33. & p. 37. l. 6. & p. 43. l. 22. & l. 29. & p. 46. l. 16. & p. 47. l. 9. f. Phylosoph &c. r. Philosoph . &c. p. 16. in marg. for . upp . r. hyp . p. 17. in marg. for 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 l. 33. f. lay r. layeth . p. 18. marg. f. ed Fir. r. ed Ficin . f. Necochim r. Nevochim . p. 19. in marg. for 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 p. 20. in marg. for 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 p. 23. l. 7. for signifyfie r. signifie . p. 24. l. 10. after affirmation , a period . p. 25. l. 7. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 p. 26. l. 3. f. hastily r. harshly . p. 28. the colon to be set after [ what he is : ] p. 29. l. 2. after he is , a period . l. 5. after nature . a period . l. 29. after wisdom , a period . p. 33. l. 29. after Imagination , a comma . p. 35 l. 33. f. iniquity r. inanitie . p. 36. l 12. after celebrate , a comma , p. 39. l. 7. after , but one , two points : p. 40. l. 24. f. he r. be . p. 44. l. 26. f. pranted r. granted . p. 45. l. 26. f. Assent r. Ascent . p. 46. l. 1. after rest , a comma . p. 48. l. 9. after ●ramed , a comma . p. 50 l. 13. f. things r. Kings . p. 51. l. 9. after air , a period . p. 59. l. 8. f. All r. the. p. 62. l. 10. f. be able r. being able . p. 72. l. 13. a●ter Ghost , a comma . l. 27. f. ninos sibi r. ni nos tibi . p. 73. l. 9. f. humour r. humours . p. 76. l. 11 , 12. most effectually to an Ecclesiastic , in a Parenthesis . p 78. l 22. blot out do . p. 79. l. 32. for to underst . r. to be underst . p. 83. l. 7. after counter-pressure , add a comma . p. 90. l. 10. after motions , a comma . p. 93. l. 5. in the marg. f. ipsu r. i●sum . p. 94. l. 5. blot out in . p. 96. ●ult . f. should r. I should . p. 103. l. 18. l. teaching r. touching . p. 108. l. 20. f. men in r. main . p. 118. l. 5. f. you r. them . p. 127. l. 18 , 19. of the right , printed twice . p. 131. l. 21. f. invaded r. minded . p. 133. l. 28. ● . Epitom r. Epitome . p. 134. l. 19. f. Arabes r. Arabs . l. 21. f. wildness r. wiliness . p. 136. l. 13. f. Arabes r. Arabs . p. 140. l. 9. f. Pollen . r. Pellenaearian . p. 144. l. 8. blot out their . p. 161. l. 21. f. the r. your . p. 162. l. 8. f. and self r. on self . p. 163. l. 8. f. calls r. le ts . p. 201. l. 22. f. reapted r. repeated . p. 203. l. 21. f. effect r. effusion . p. 227. l. 8. f. cast r. cut . p. 228. l. 14. f. posterity r. prosperity . l. 18. f. conted r. contend ▪

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