Sir Lucius Cary, late Lord Viscount of Falkland, his discourse of infallibility, with an answer to it: and his Lordships reply. Never before published. Together with Mr. Walter Mountague's letter concerning the changing his religion. / Answered by my Lord of Falkland.

SIR LUCIUS CARY , LATE LORD VISCOUNT OF FALKLAND , His Discourse of INFALLIBILITY , with an Answer to it : And his Lordships REPLY .

Never before published .

Together with Mr. Walter Mountague's Letter concerning the changing his Religion .

Answered by my Lord of FALKLAND .

LONDON Printed by Gartrude Dawson , for Iohn Hardesty , and are to be sold at the Signe of the Black Spread-Eagle , in Duck-Lane , 1651.

To the Right Honourable , Henry Lord Viscount of Falkland , my Honourable Lord . My Lord ,

NOt long before the death of that incomparable person , your Lordships Mother , that great example of piety and humility , the Lady Viscountesse of Falkland , she was pleased to commit to my hand that , which she beleeved , next her Children , the dearest pledge of her dead Lord some excellent Monuments of his Reason , Wit , and Industry . in the search of that , which he would have as gladly found , as he hath rationally rejected , an Infallible Iudge here on Earth in all our Controversies in point of Religion , of which the labouring world seemeth at present to stand in so much need . I have considered often of that singular trust and friendship , in making me the depositarie of so rich a Jewell : And since she , from whose hands I received it , is gone thither , where she stands in no need of these discourses , I know no person living that hath more right to it then your Lordship , or indeed to whom I would more willingly offer it . For though your Lordship be now out of my immediate charge and Tuition , yet as long as it shall please God to make me able to do , or point at any thing that may , though never so little , helpe forward to perfect a good work in you , I shall never account my selfe disobliged . I must professe to all the World , that there is no Family now in being , to which I owe more true service , then to your Lordships : And shall to the utmost of my power , upon all occasions make it good . I have nothing left me but a poor thankfull heart , which hath been my onely sure Companion , when all things else have forsaken me : That still remaines 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , being neither in the power of time nor persons to spoile me of that , which like a good Conscience to my self , must to my friends be the best feast I can make them .

My Lord , my design is not by this to ingage your Lordship in this Polemicall discourse , nor my self neither , having neither ability nor leasure for a business of that concern , and by reason of my busie imployment , I had not been able to have presented it thus to your Lordship , without the assistance of Judicious Friends , that honour the work for the Authors sake , and the Author for his owne .

But , My Lord , I hope I shall have my end in it however , an end which no good man will envy me , namely , an occasion hereby to reminde your Lordship of the Gallant Author , your Noble Father , that by proposing Him to you as your constant Coppy , you may do Him an honour beyond all his Friends : For while they praise , you may imitate him .

Indeed , it is one of the greatest comforts I have in this calamitous life , to remember , that I had the honour to be so : neare Him : And a reproach , which I cannot clear my self of , to have been at the same time so neare , and so farr off ; so neare in Conversation , and yet so farr removed from him in those Excellencies , whereby he was the envy of this Age , and will be the wonder of the next .

His Religion , ( for that I should begin with ) was the more Eminent , because the more Early , at that age , when yong Gallants think least on it : When they , yong Candidates of Atheisme begin to dispute themselves out of a beleefe of a Deity , urging hard against that , which indeed is best for them that it should never be , a Iudgement to come ; then , I say , that salvation which these mention with a scoff or a Jeere , he began to work out with fear and trembling , and effectually to remember , that is , to honour and serve his Creator in the daies of his youth .

In the next place , I may not forget his vast naturall parts : Dixit ex tempore saith Pliny of Isoeus , sed tanquam diu scripserit , , and I may truely apply it to him , his Answers were quick and suddain , but such , as might very well seem to have been meditated . In short , his abilities were such , as though he needed no supplies of industry , yet his industry such as though he had had no parts at all . How often have I heard him pitty those Hawking and Hunting Gentlemen , who if unseasonable weather for their sports had betrayed them to keep home , without a worse excercise within doores , could not have told how to have spent their time : And all because they were such strangers to such good Companions , with whom he was so familiar , such as neither cloy nor weary any , with whom they converse , such company as Erasmus , a person much esteemed by my Lord your Father , so much extolls in his 31 , and 35 , Epistle of his fourth Book : Not friends of the Cellar , or the Kitchin ; 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , indeed their owne friends rather then his who entertaineth them : But such , as being bidden , are ready , uninvited intrude not , that bite no mans meat or reputation , silent , not spoken to , spoken to , speak as we please , what we please , how long and how much we please : Candidly communicating themselves to us without betraying our secrets committed to them ; that still tell us somewhat that may delight us for its Antiquitie , please us for its Novelty , or some way or other enrich our knowledge . While others studied the Heraldry of Horses , of Doggs , or at the best their owne : He , though not inferior to his Neighbours in Descent , and Honour , knowing well how much more glorious it is to be the first then the last of a Noble Family , ( Blood without Vertue making Vice but more conspicuous ) was so farr from relying upon that empty Title , that He seemed Ipse suos genuisse Parentes , to have begotten his Ancestors , and to have given them a more Illustrious life , then he recieved from them .

Though there were as much true worth closely treasured up in him , as well divided , had been able to have set up a hundred Pretenders , yet so much Modesty withall , that the hearing of any thing was more pleasing to him then one tittle of his owne praise .

This Vertue was indeed in a high degree in him , and shewed it selfe upon all occasions . If any thing , though never so little unhandsomely , had been spoken or done where he was , he was the greatest sufferer in the company , and much more out of countenance then he that made the offence . And surely he that was so tender of another mans Civility , may very justly be presumed to have had a great regard to his owne . And so he had indeed . For though his Courage were as great as his Wit and his Learning , ( and that is expression high enough ) his Valour so undaunted and dreadlesse , as his great fall witnest , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , In that fatall Haile that made more Orphans then his Children : Yet to do an ill or an uncivill thing , he was an arrant Coward : Though he was of Davids Stature , of his Courage too , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and in this most like him , afraid of nothing but to offend .

But what needs any body plead for his Civility more then this present Discourse , where he excels his Antagonist in that , as well as in reason , and shewes that a Gentleman writ with a Scholars Pen.

Before I shut up all , my Lord , one Vertue there is yet to be mentioned , which of all that ever had relation to his Lordship , I may not , I must not ever forget , and that was his Friendship . That is a Vertue , which by the unintermitted affliction of my life , I have had more then ordinary occasion to make use of . And that I must needs say was it , which made all his other Graces and Excellencies relish to me , He being the dearest and the truest Friend , that through the whole course of my unhappy life I ever had the happinesse to meet with .

If it be a kind of pleasure to reade discourses of Friends and Friendship , What is it to enjoy such a Friend in whom really was , what Excellencie either History can record , or almost Poëtry faine ?

Nothing so hard in Lucians Toxaris , that he durst not do , and nothing so handsome in all Seneca's Lawes of Benefits , that he knew not how to do , and to out-do for his Friend .

Let your Vertuous and dear Grandmother , my Lord , and all your Kindred yet alive , speak to this : And your blessed Mother were she now alive , would say , she had the best of Friends before the best of Husbands . This was it that made Tew so valued a Mansion to us : For as when we went from Oxford thither , we found our selves never out of the Universitie : So we thought our selves never absent from our own beloved home . But I dare say no more of this , it being now a mellancholy thing , I am sure to me , to call back into my memory happinesse never to be recalled , and to afflict my self anew with the consideration of what felicity I have out-lived .

Your Lordship is now the onely surviving pledge of that admired Father , of whom-when we his poor servants have said all we can , the Character will be farr too short . It is in you , and onely you , my Lord to set him out truely , and to resemble him to the life , and that will be by taking that Evangelicall Counsell , Tu autem fac similiter : Do like him , live like him , and pardon me if I add one thing more , like him , Love

My Lord , Your Lordships most humble and affectionately devoted Servant , TRIPLET .

The Preface to the READER .

THe eminent abilities in the most noble Author of the ensuing learned Discourse , and learneder Reply , can scarcely be imagined unknown to any whom this language can reach : But if any such there be , I shall desire them to learne the perfections of that most excellent Person , rather from the Dedication , then this Preface ; the designe of which , is onely to give the Reader some satisfation concerning the nature of this Controversie in it selfe , and of these Dissertations in particular .

The Romish Doctrine of their owne Infallibility , as it is the most gcnerall Controversie betweene them , and all other Churches excluded by them from their Communion : So it is of such a comprehensive nature , that being once proved and clearely demonstrated , it would without question draw all other Churches so excluded , to a most humble submission and acknowledgement , nay , to an earnest desire of a suddaine Reconciliation upon any Termes whatsoever . For howsoever they please to speak and write of our Hereticall and obstinate persistance in manifest Errors , yet I hope they cannot seriously thinks we would be so irrationall , as to contradict him whom we our selves think beyond a possibillity of erring , and to dispute perpetually with them , whom onely to heare were to be satisfied .

But when they have propounded their Decisions to be beleeved , and imbraced by us as Infallibly true , and that because they propound them , who in their own opinion are Infallible ; if notwithstanding some of those Decisions seeme to us to be evidently false , because cleanly contradictory to that which they themselves propound as infallibly true , that is the Word of God : surely we cannot be blamed , if we have desired their Infallibility to be most clearly demonstrated , at least to a higher degree of evidence then we have of the contradiction of their Decisions to the infallible Rule . Wherefore , The great Defenders of the Doctrine of the Church of England , have with more then ordinary diligence endeavoured to view the grounds of this Controversie , and have written by the advantage either of their learning accurately , or of their parts most strongly , or of the cause it selfe most convincingly , against that darling Infallibility . How clearely this Controversie hath been managed , with what evidence of truth discussed , what successe so much of reason hath had , cannot more plainly appeare then in this , that the very name of Infallibility before so much exalted , begins now to be very burthensome , even to the maintainers of it : Insomuch as one of their latest and ablest Proselytes , Hugh Paulin de Cressy , lately Dean of Laghlin , &c. in Ireland , and Prebendary of Windfor in England , in his Exomologesis , or faithfull Narration of the occasion and motives of his Conversion , hath dealt very clearly with the World , and told us , that this Infallibilitie is an unfortunate Word . That Mr. Chillingworth hath cumbated against it with too too great successe , so great , that he could wish the Word were forgotten , or at least layd by . That not onely Mr. Chillingworth , whom he still worthily admires ; but we the rest of the poore Protestants have in very deed , very much to say for our selves , when we are pressed unnecessarily with it . And therefore Mr. Cressy's advise to all the Romanists is this , that we may never be invited to combat the authority of the Church under that notion . Oh the strength of Reason rightly managed ! O the power of Truth clearly declared ! that it should force an emment member of the Church of Rome ( whose great Principle is non-retractation ) to retract so necessary , so fundamentall a Doctrine , to desert all their Schooles , and contradict all their Controvertists . But indeed not without very good cause : For he professes withall , that no such word as Infallibility is to be found in any Councel : Neither did ever the Church enlarge her Authority to so vaste a widenesse : But doth rather deliver the victory into our hands when we urge her Decisions . In all which Confessions , although he may seeme onely to speak of the Word , yet that cannot be it which he is so wearie of , because we except not against the word at all , but confesse it rightly to signifie that which we impugne , neither do we ever bring any nominall Argument against it . But as when Cardinall Bellarmine sets downe the Doctrine of the Church in their positive tearmes . Summus Pontifex , cum totam Ecclesiam docet , in his , quae ad Fidem pertinent , nullo casu errare potest . We conceive he hath suffciently expressed the sence of the word Infallibility , so that , Infallibilis est , & nullo casu errare potest , are to us the same thing . It cannot therefore be the Word alone , but the whole importance and sence of that word Infallibility , which Mr. Cressy so earnestly desires all his Catholicks ever hereafter to forsake , because the former Church did never acknowledge it , and the present Church will never be able to maintaine it . This is the great successe which the Reason , Parts , and Learning of the late Defendors of our Church have had in this maine Architectonicall Controversie .

And yet though the Church never maintained it , though the Protestants have had such advantage against it , though Mr. Cressy confessing both , hath wished all Catholicks to forsake it , yet will he not wholly forsake it himself , but undertakes most irrationally to answer for it . If the Church never asserted it , if the Catholicks be not at all concerned in it , to what end will Mr. Cressy the great mitigator of the rigor , and defendor of the latitude of the Churches Decisions , maintaine it ? If Mr. Chillingworth have had such good successe against it , why will his old Friend Mr. Cressy endeavour to answer his arguments ? especially , considering when he hath answered them all , he can onely from thence conclude that , Mr. Chillingworth was a very had Disputant , who could bring no argument able to confute that , which in it selfe is not to be maintained .

So unreasonable it is and inconsistent with his Concessions , that he should give an answer at all , but the manner of his answer , which he gives , is farr more irrationall . For deserting the Infallibility , he answers onely the authority of the Church , and so makes this authority answer for that Infallibility : from whence these three manifest absurdities must necessarily follow .

First , When he hath answered all M. Chillingworth's arguments , in the same manner as he pretends to answer them , he must still acknowledge them unanswerable , as they were intended by him that made them . And no argument need to be thought good for any thing else , if he which made it knew what he said , as Mr. Chillingworth certainely did . Secondly , He onely pretends to answer those arguments , as against the authority of the Church , simply considered without relation to such an Infallibility , which were never made against an authority so quallified . And therefore whether the argument of his deare friend were to any purpose or no , his answer manifestly must be to none . Thirdly , If hee intend to refute all opposition made to their Infallibility by an assertion of their bare authority , then must he assert that authority to be as great and convincing , which is fallible as that which is infallible : that Guide to be as good , which may lead me out of my way , as that which cannot . That Iudge to be as fit to determine any doubt , who is capable of a mistake , as he which is not . And then I make no question , but some of his own Church amongst the rest of their dislikes , will put him in mind of that handsome sentence of Cardinall Belarmine , Iniquissimum esset cogere Christianos , ut non appellent ab eo Judicio , quod erroneum esse potuit .

I once thought to have replied to those answers , which he hath given to Mr. Chillingworth's arguments : but his antecedent Concession hath made them so inconsiderable to me , that upon a second thought , I feare I should be as guilty in replying after my Objections , as he hath been in answering after his Confessions . Wherefore I shall conclude with an asseveration of min own , which shall be therefore short because mine : That the Reply of this most excellent Person , Sola operarum summa praesertim in Graecis incuria excepta , is the most accurate Refutation of all , which can be said in this Controversie , that ever yet appeared , and if what hath already been delivered have had such successe upon so eminent an adversary , then may we very rationally expect at least the same effect upon all , who shall be so happy as to read these Discourses .

Which is the earnest desire of I. P.

OF THE INFALLIBILITY OF THE CHURCH OF ROME . A discourse written by the Lord Viscount FALKLAND .

TO him that doubteth whether the Church of Rome hath any errors , they answer , that she hath none , for she never can have any ; this being so much harder to beleeve then the first , had need be proved by some certainer Arguments , if they expect that the beleefe of this one should draw on whatsoever they please to propose ; yet this , if offered to be proved by no better wayes , then we offer to prove by , that she hath erred ; which are arguments from Scripture , and ancient Writers , all which they say are fallible , for nothing is not so but the Church : Which if it be the onely infallible determination , and that can never be believed upon its owne authority , we can never infallibly know that the Church is infallible , for these other waies of proofe may deceive both them and us , and so neither side is bound to beleeve them ; If they say that an argument out of Scripture is sufficient ground of Divine Faith , why are they offended with the Protestants for beleeving every part of their Religion upon that ground , upon which they build all theirs at once . And if following the same Rule , with equall desire of finding the Truth by it , ( having neither of those qualities which Isid. Pelus , saith are the cause of all Heresie , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Pride and Prejudication ) why should God be more offended with the one , then with the other , though they chance to erre .

They say , the Church is therefore made infallible by God , that all men may have some certain Guide ; yet , though it be infallible , unlesse it both plainly appeare to be so , ( for it is not certaine to whom it doth not appeare certaine ) and unlesse it be manifest which is the Church , God hath not attained his end ; and it were to set a ladder to Heaven , and seem to have a great care of my going up , whereas unlesse there be care taken that I may know this ladder is here to that purpose , it were as good for me it never had been set .

If they say we may know , for that generall Tradition instructs us in it .

I answer , that ignorant people cannot know this , and so it can be no Rule for them ; and if learned people mistake in this , there can be no condemnation for them .

For suppose , to know whether the Church of Rome may erre , ( as a way which will conclude against her , but not for her ) I seek whether she have erred ; and conceiving she hath contradicted her self , conclude necessarily she hath erred , I suppose it not damnable , ( though false ) because I try the Church by one of the touch-stones which herself appoints me ( Conformity with the Ancients . ) For to say , I am to beleeve the present Church , that it differs not from the former , though it seem to me to do so , is to send me to a witnesse , and bid me not beleeve it ; now to say the Church is provided for a guide of Faith , but must be known by such markes as the ignorant cannot seek it by , and the learned may chance not find it by , can no way satisfie me .

If they say God will reveale the Truth to whomsoever seeks it these waies sincerely , this saying both sides will ( without meanes of being confuted ) make use of , therefore it would be as good that neither did .

When they have proved the Church to be Infallible yet to my understanding they have proceeded nothing farther , unlesse we can be sure which is it . For it signifies onely that God will have a Church alwaies which shall not erre , but not that such , or such a succession shall be in the right , so that if they say , the Greek Church . is not the Church , because by its own confession it is not Infallible : I answer , That it may be now the Church , and may hereafter erre , ( and so not be now infallible ) and yet the Church never erre , because before their fall from Truth , others may arise to maintaine it , who then will be the Church , and so the Church may still be infallible , though not in respect of any set persons , whom we may know at all times for our Guide .

Then if they prove the Church of Rome to be the true Church , and not the Greek Church , because their opinions are consonant either to Scripture or Antiquitie , they run into a Circle , proving their Tenets to be true . First , because the Church holds them : And then theirs to be the Church , because the Church holds the Truth : Which last , though it appears to me the onely way , yet it takes away its being a Guide , which we may follow without examination , without which all they say besides , is nothing .

Nay , suppose that they had evinced , that some succession were Infallible , and so had proved to a learned man , that the Roman Chruch must be this , because none else pretends to it , yet this can be no sufficient ground to the ignorant , who cannot have any infallible foundation for their beleefe , that the Church of Greece pretends not to the same ; and even to the Learned it is but an accidentall Argument , because if any other Company had likewise claimed to be Infallible , it had overthrown all .

The chiefest reason why they disallow of Scripture for Judge , is , because when differences arise about the interpretation , there is no way to end them : And that it will not stand with the goodnesse of God , to damne men for not following Ins Will , if he had assigncd no infallible way to find it .

I confesse this to be wonderfull true , ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) and let them excuse themselves that think otherwise ; yet this will be no Argument against him that beleeves , that to them who follow their reason in the interpretation of the Scriptures , God will either give his Grace for assistance to find the Truth , or his pardon if they misse it : And then this supposed necessitie of an infallible Guide , ( with the supposed damnation for want of it ) fall together to the ground .

If they command us to beleeve infallibly the contrary to this , they are to prove it false by some infallible way ( for the conclusion must be of the same nature , and not conclude more then the premisses set down . ) Now such a way Scripture , and Reason , and infused Faith cannot be , ( for they use to object the fallibility of these , to those that build their Religion upon them ) nor the authority of the Church , ( for this is part of the Question , and must it self be first proved , and that by none of the former waies , for the former reasons . )

The Popes Infallibility can be no infallible ground of Faith , being it self no necessary part of Faith , and we can be no surer of any thing proved , then we are of that which proves it : ) and if he be fallible , no part is the more infallible for his siding with them ; So if the Church be divided , I have no way to know the true Church , but by searching which agrees with Scripture and Antiquitie , and so judging accordingly : ( but this is not to submit my self to her opinions , as my Guide , which they tell us is necessarie ) which course , if they approve not of as fit for a learned , man , they are in a worse case for the ignorant , who can take no course at all , nor is he the better at all for his Guide the Church , whilft two parts dispute which is it , and that by arguments he understands not .

If I grant the Pope , or a Councell by him called , to be infallible , yet I conceive their decrees can he no sufficient grounds , ( by their own axioms ) of divine Faith .

For first of all , no Councell is valid , not approved by the Pope ( for thus they overthrow that held at Ariminum ) and a Pope chosen by Simony , is ( ipso facto ) no Pope .

I can have then no certainer grounds for the infallibility of those decrees , and consequently for my beleefe of them , then I have , that the choice of him is neither directly , nor indirectly Simoniacall .

Secondly , suppose him Pope , and to have confirmed their decrees ; yet , that these are the decrees of a Councell , or that he hath confirmed them , I can have'but an uncontradicted confession of many men ; ( for if another Councell should declare these to have been the Acts of another former Councell , I should need againe some certain way of knowing how this declaration is a Councell ) which is no ground , say they , of Faith , I am sure not so good and generall a one , as we have that the Scripture is Scripture , which yet they will not allow any to be certaine of , but from them .

Thirdly , For the sence of their decrees , I can have no better expounder then reason ; which if ( though I mistake ) I shall not be damned for following , why shall I for mistaking the sence of the Scripture ? or why am I a lesse fit Interpreter of the one , then of the other ? and when both seeme equally cleare , and yet contradictory , shall not I assoon beleeve Scripture which is without doubt of as great authority ?

But I doubt whether Councells are fit deciders of Questions ; for such they cannot be if they beget more , and men are in greater doubts afterwards ( none of the former being diminished ) then they were at ffrst .

Now I conceive there arise so many out of this way , that the learned cannot end all , nor the ignorant know all . As ( besides the fore-named considerations ) who is to call them ? the Pope or Kings ? who are to have voices in them , Bishops onely , or Priests also ? whether the Pope , or Councell be superiour : and the last need the approbation of the first ( debated amongst themselves ? ) Whether any Countries , not being called , or not being there , ( as the Abissines , so great a part of Christianitie , and not resolvedly condemned by them for Hereticks , were absent at the Councell of Trent ) make it not generall ? Whether if it be one not every where received , ( as when the Bishops sent from some places have exceeded their Commission , as in the Councell of Florence ) it be yet of necessitie to be subscribed unto ? Whether there were any surreption or force used , and whether those disanull the Acts ? Whether the most voices are to be held the Act of the Councell , or those of all required ( which never yet agreed ? ) Or whether two parts will serve , as in the Tridentine Synod ? A considerable doubt ; because Nicephorus Callistus , relalating the resolution of a Councell at Rome , against that of Ariminum makes him give three reasons .

One , That the Pope of Rome was not present . The Second , That most did not agree to it . The third , That others thither gathered , were displcased at their resolutions .

Which proves , that ( in their opinions ) if either most not present , agree not to it , or all present be not pleased with it , a Councell hath no power to bind .

All these doubts I say perswade me , that whatsoever brings with it so many new Questions , can be no fit end of the old .

Then , if before a generall Councell have defined a Question , it be lawfull to hold either way , and damnable to do so after ; I desire to know why it is so . Scripture and Tradition seem to me not to say so ? but if they did so , I suppose you will grant they do this Doctrine , That the Soules of the blessed shall see God before the day of Judgement : ( and not be kept in secret Receptacles ) for without this , the Doctrine of Prayers to Saints , cannot stand ; and yet , for denying this , Bellarmine excuseth Pope John the 22th because the Church ( he meanes , I doubt not , a generall Councell ) had not then condemned it .

I desire to know , why he should not be condemned as well without one , as many Hereticks , that are held so by their Church , yet condemned by none : ( which if he make to be the Rule of Heresie , it had been happy to have lived before the Councell of Nice , when no opinion had been dam nable , but some against the Apostles Councell at Hierusalem , because there had yet been no other generall Councell ; ) at least , why should not I be excused by the same reason , though I beleeve not a Councell to be infallible ? since I never heard that any Councell hath decreed that they are so . neither if it hath , can we be bound by that decree , unlesse first made certaine some other way , that it selfe is so .

If you say , we must beleeve it because of Tradition , I answer , Sometimes you will have the not beleeving any thing not declared by a Councell , to have power enough to damne ( that is when against any of us : ) at other times the Church hath not decreed unlesse a Councell have , and their error is pardonable , and they good Catholicks .

Next , ( as I have asked before ) how shall an ignorant man know it ? For he in likelihood can speak but with a few , from whom he cannot know , that all of the Church of Romes part do now , and in past ages have beleeved it to be Tradition , so certaine as to make it a ground of Faith , ( unlesse he have some revelation that those deceived him not ) neither indeed can those that should inform him of the opinions of former times be certainely informed themselves : For truely , if the relation of Pappias could cozen so far all the prime Doctors of the Christian Church into a beleefe of the celebration of a thousand yeeres after the resurredion , so as that no one of those two first ages oppose it , ( which appeares plainly enough , because those that after rise up against this , never quoated any thing for themselves before Dionysius Alexandrinus , who lived at least two hundred and fifty yeares after Christ ; ) nay , if those first men did not onely beleeve it as probable , but Justine Martir saith , he holds it , and so do all that are in all parts Orthodox Christians , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 sets it down directly for a Tradition , and relates the very words that Christ used , when he taught this , which is plainner then any other Tradition , is proved or said to be out of antiquity by them ) if I say these could be so deceived , why might not other of the ancients as well be deceived in other points , and then what certaintie shall the learned have ( when after much labour , they think they can make it appeare , that the ancients thought any thing Tradition ) that indeed it was so , and that either the folly or the knavery of some Pappias deceived them not ? I confesse it makes me think of some that Tully speakes of , who arcem amittunt , dum propugnacula defendunt , loose the Fort , whilst they defend the out-works ; For whilst they answer this way the Arguments of Tradition for the opinions of the Chiliasts , they make unusefull to themselves the force , of Tradition , to prove any else by .

For which cause it was rather wisely then honestly done of them , who ( before Fevardentius set him forth ) left out that part of Irenaeus which we alleadge , ( though we need it not much ; for many of the Fathers take notice of this beleef of his ) yet he justifies himself for doing it , by saying , that if they leave out all errors in the books they publish , ( that is , I suppose , all opinions contrary to the Church of Rome ) bona pars scriptorum , Patrum Orthodoxorum evanesceret , a great part of the writings of the Orthodox Fathers must vanish away .

But the Tradition that can be found out of Ancients ( since their witnessing may deceive us ) hath much lesse strength , when they argue onely thus , sure so many would not say this is true , if there were no Tradition for them ,

I would have you remember , they can deliver their opinions possibly , but either before the controversie arise in the Church , ( upon some chance ) or after ; If before , it is confessed that they writ not often cautiously enough , and so they answer all they seem to say for Arrius , and Pelagius his Faith , before themselves , and so consequently , their controversie ( though it may be not their opinion ) arose .

If after , Then they answer often , ( if any thing be by them at that time spoken against them ) that the heat of disputation brought it from them , and their resolution to oppose hereticks enough ; I desire , it may be lawfull for us to answer so too , ( either one of these former waies , or that it was ( as often they say too ) some Hyperbole ) when they presse us with the opinions of Fathers .

At least I am sure , if they may deceive us with saying a thing is Tradition , when it is not , we may be sooner deceived if we will conclude it for a Tradition , when they speak it onely as a Truth , and ( for ought appeares ) their particular opinion .

Besides , If Salvian comparing the Arrians with evill livers , ( and that after they were condemned by a Councell ) extenuates ( by reason of their beleeving themselves in the right ) with much instance , the fault of the Arrians , and saith , how they shall be punished in the day of Judgement , none can know but the Judge .

If I say , They confesse it to be his opinion , they must also confesse the Doctrine of the Church to differ from that of Salvians time , because he was allowed a member of that , for all this saying , whereas he of the Church of Rome , that should now say so of us , would be counted sesqui-heareticus , a Heretick and halfe , or else they must say ( which they can onely say , and hot prove ) that he was so earnest against ill men , that for the aggravation of their crime , he lessened that of the Hereticks , and said , what at another time he would not have said ; which if they do , will it not overthrow wholly the authority of the Fathers ? Since we can never infallibly know , what they thought at all times , from what they were moved to say , at some one time , by some Collatericall considerations .

Next , To this certaine and undoubted damning of all out of the Church of Rome , which averteth me from it , comes their putting all to death that are so , where they have power ( which is an effect , though not a necessary one of the first-opinion ) and that averteth me yet more , for I do not beleeve all to be damned that they damne , but I conceive all to be killed that they kill ; I am sure if you look upon Constantines Epistle , written to perswade concord upon their first disagreement between Alexander , and Arrius , you will find , that he thought , ( and if the Bishops about him had then thought otherwise , he would have been sure better informed ) that neither side deserved either death , or damnation , ( and yet sure you will say , this Question was as great as ever rose since ) for having spoken of the opinions , as things so indifferent , that the Reader might almost think that they had been fallen out at spurn-point , or kittlepins , he adds , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , for that which is necessary is one thing , that all agree , and keep the same Faith , about divine Providence . I am sure , in the same Author , Moses ( a man praised by him ) refusing to be made Bishop by Lucius , because he was an Arrian , and he answering that he did ill to refuse it , because he knew not what his Faith was , answered , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . The banishing of Bishops shew enough thy Faith . So that it is plaine , that he thought punishing for opinions to be a mark , which might serve to know false opinions by . And I beleeve throughout Antiquitie , you will find . no putting any to death , unlesse it be such as begin to kill first , as the Circumcellians , or such like : I am sure Christian Religions chiefest glory being , that it encreaseth by being persecuted ; and having that advantage of the Mahumetan , which came in by force , me thinks ( especially since Synesius had told us , and Reason told men so before Synesius , that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ; Every thing is destroyed by the contrary to what setled and composed it ; ) It should be to take ill care of Christianity , to hold it up by Turkish meanes , at least it must breed doubts , that if the Religion had alwaies remained the same , it would not be now defended by waies so contrary to those , by which at first it was propagated .

I desire recrimination may not be used ; for though it be true , that Calvin had done it , and the Church of England , a little ( which is a little too much ) for negare manifesta non audeo , & excusare immodica non possum , yet she ( confessing she may erre ) is not so chargeable with any fault , as those which pretend they cannot , and so will be sure never to mend it ; and besides I will be bound to defend no more then I have undertaken , which is to give reason why the Church of Rome is infallible .

I confess this opinion of damning so many , and this custome of burning so many , this breeding up those , who knew nothing else in any point of Religion , yet to be in a readinesse to cry , To the fire with him , to Hell with him , ( as polybius saith in a certaine furious faction of an army of severall nations , and consequently of severall languages , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 They all joyned onely in understanding this word , [ throw at him . ] These I say , in my opinion were chiefly the causes which made so many , so suddenly leave the Church of Rome , that indeed to borrow the same Authors Phrase , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : They needed no perswasion to do it , but onely newes that others had done it : For as this alone if beleeved , makes all the rest to be so too , so one thing alone disliked , ( where infallibility is claimed ) overthrowes all the rest .

If it were granted , that it agreeth not with the goodnesse of God , to let men want an infallible Guide , and therefore there must be one , and that the Church of Rome were it , yet if that teach any thing to my understanding contrary to Gods goodnesse , I am not to receive her Doctrine , for the same cause for which they would have me receive it , ( it being as good an argument this guide teacheth things contrary to Gods goodnesse , therefore this is not appointed by God , as to say , it is agreeable to his goodnesse there should be one , therefore there is one ) and sure it is lawfull to examine particular Doctrines , whether they agree with that Principle , which is their foundation ; and for that ( me thinks ) to damn him , that neither with negligence , nor prejudication , searches what is Gods will , ( though he misse of it ) is as contrary , as the first can be supposed .

Next , I would know , whether he , that hath never heard of the Church of Rome , shall yet be damned for not beleeving her infallible ?

I have so good an opinion of them , as to assure my self , they will answer he shall not .

I will then ask , whether he that hath searched what Religions there are , and finds hers to be one , and her infallibility to be a part of it , ( if his reason will not assent to that ) shall be damned for being inquisitive after Truth , ( for he hath committed no other fault , greater then the other ) and whether such an ignorance , ( I mean after impartiall search ) be not of all other the most invincible ?

Nay , grant the Church to be infallible , yet me thinks , he that denies it , and imploies his reason to seek , if it be true , should be in as good case , as he that beleeveth it , and searcheth not at all the truth of the Proposition he receives ; For I cannot see why he should be saved , because by reason of his parents beleef , or the Religion of the Country , or some such accident , the Truth was offered to his understanding , when , had the contrary been offered , he would have received that . And the other damned , that beleeves falshood upon as good ground , as the other doth truth , unlesse the Church be like a Conjurers Circle , that will keep a man from the Divell , though he came unto it by chance .

They grant no man is an Heretick , that beleeves not his Heresie obstinately , and if he be no Heretick , he may sure be saved ; It is not then certain damnation for any man to deny the Infallibility of the Church of Rome , but for him onely that denies it obstinately ; And then I am safe , for I am sure I do not ; Neither can they say , I shall be damned for Schisme , though not for Heresie , for he is as well no Shcismatick , though in Schisme , that is willing , to joyne in Communion with the true Church , when it appears to be so to him , as he is no Heretick , though he holds Hereticall opinions , who holds them not obstinately , that is ( as I suppose ) with a desire to be informed if he be in the wrong .

Next , Why if it be not necessary alwaies to beleeve the Truth , so one beleeve in generall what the Church would have beleeved , ( for so they excuse great men that have held contrary opinions to theirs now , before they were defined , or knew them to be so ) why I say , shall not the same implicite assent serve to whatsoever God would have assented unto ? ( though I mistake what that is : ) when indeed to beleeve implicitely what God would have beleeved , is to beleeve implicitely likewise what the Church teacheth , if this Doctrine be within the number of those , which God commands to be beleeved .

I have the lesse doubt of this opinion , that I shall have no harme for not beleeving the Infallibility of the Church of Rome , because of my being so farr from leaning to the contrary , and so suffering my will to have power over my understanding , that if God would leave it to me , which Tenet should be true , I would rather chuse , that that should , then the contrary .

For they may well beleeve me , that I take no pleasure in tumbling hard and unpleasant Books , and making my self giddy with disputing obscure Questions , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . If I should beleeve , there should alwaies be , whom I might alwaies know , a society of men , whose opinions must be certainely true , and who would 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , labour to discusse and define all arising doubts , so that I might be excusably at ease , and have no part left for me but that of obedience , which must needs be a lesse difficult , and so a more agreeable way , then to endure endlesse Volumes of Commenters , the harsh Greek of Epiphanius , and the harder Latin of Trenaeus , and be pained by distinguishing between different sences , and various Lections , and he would deserve not the lowest place in Bedlem , that would preferr these studies before so many , so more pleasant ; that would rather imploy his understanding then submit it , and if he could think God imposed upon him onely the resisting temptations , would by way of addition require from himself , the resolving of doubts ; yet I say not , that all these Books are to be read by those that understand not the languages , ( for them I conceive their seeking into the Scripture may suffice ) but he who hath by Gods grace skill to look into them , cannot better use it then in the searching of his will , where they say it is to be found , that he may assent to them , if there he find reason for it , or if not , they may have no excuse for not excusing him .

For whereas they say it is pride makes us doubt of their Infallibilitie .

I answer , That their too much lazinesse and impatience of examining is the cause , that many of them do not doubt .

Next , what pride is it never to assent , before I find reason ( since they , when they follow their Church as infallible , pretend reason for it , and will not say they would , if they thought they found none ) and if they say , we do find reason , but will not confesse it , then pride hinders not our assent , but our declaration of it , which if it do in any one , he is without question 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , condemned by himself , and it must be a very partiall Advocate , that would strive to acquit him .

One much prevailing argument , which they make , is this , That whosoever leaves them , fall into dissention between themselves , whereas they in the mean while are allwaies at Unity .

I answer ,

First , In this whereof the Question is now , they all assent . Secondly , When there is fire for them that disagree , they need not bragg of their Uniformity who consent . Thirdly , they have many differences among them , as whether the Pope be Infallible ? whether God predeterminate every action ? whether Election and Reprobation depend upon fore-sight ? Which seemes to me as great as any between their Adversaries , and in the latter , the Jesuites have ancienter , and generaller Tradition on their side , then the Church of Rome hath in any other Question , and as much ground from Reason for the defence of Gods goodnesse , as they can think they have for the necessity of an infallible guide .

Yet these arguments must not make the Dominicans Hercticks , and must us : If they say the Church hath not resolved it , ( which signifies onely that they are not agreed about it , which is that we object ) I answer , It ought to have done so , if uniformity to the Ancient Church be required , in which all that ever I could heare of , before Saint Austine ( who is ever various I confesse in it ) delivered the contrary to the Dominicans as not doubtfull ; and to say it is lawfull for them to disagree , wheresoever they do not agree , is ridiculous , ( for they cannot do both at once about the same point ) and if they say they mean by the Churches not having concluded it , that a Councell hath not : I Answer ,

First , That they condemne some without any Councell , and why not these ?

Next , I say the opinion of the diffused Church is of more force , then the conclusion of the representative ( which hath its authority from the other ) and therefore if all extant for the first four hundered yeares taught any thing , it is more Heresie to deny that , then any Cannon of a Councell ; But may not howsoever any other Company of People ( that would maintaine themselves to be infallible ) say as much , that all other Sects differ from one another , and therefore should all agree with them , would not those ( think they ) ascribe all other mens dissentions , and learned mens falling into diverse heresies to their not allowing their Infallibility , to their not assenting to their Decrees , and not suffering them 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , to sit as teachers of those things that come in Question , and to have all others in the place of Disciples obedient to them , which is that which Nilus a Greek Bishop professed , that ( because the Greeks would not allow the Romans ) was the chief cause of separation between them .

Next , They use much to object , how could errors come into the Church without opposition , and mention both of them , and the opposition to them in History .

I answer ,

They might come not at once , but by degrees , as in the growth of a Child , or motion of a Clock , we see neither in the present , but know there was a present when we find it past .

Next , I say there are two sorts of errors ; To hold a thing necessary that is unlawfull , and false ; or that is but profitable , and probable . Of the second sort , that errors should come in , it appears not hard to me , ( especially in those ages where want of Printing , made Books , and consequently Learning , not so common as now it is , where the few that did study , busied themselves in Schoole speculations onely , when the authority of a man of chief note , had a more generall influence then now it hath , and so as Thucidides saith the Plague did in his time , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the disease that first settled in the head EASILY passed through all the body , considering how apt men are to desire that all men should think as they do , and consequently to lay a necessity upon the receiving that opinion , if they conceive that a way to have it received . And then if it were beleeved generally , profitable ( as confession ) who would be apt to oppose their calling it neccessary , for the same cause for which they called it so .

Besides , If this error were delivered by some Father in the hot opposition of some Heretick , it may be none would oppose it , least the adversaries might take advantage by their dissention , and he that disputed for the Orthodox side , might lose by it much of his authority .

The word necessary it self , is also often used for very convenient , and then from necessary in that sence , to absolutely necessary is no difficult change , though it be a great one .

Then the Fathers use the word Hereticks , sometimes in a larger sence , and sometimes in a stricter , and so differ in the reckoning them up , some leaving out those that others put in , ( though they had seen the precedent Catalogue ) and so the doubtfullnesse of the sence of these words might bring in error : Names also , as Altar , Sacrifice , Masse , may have been used .

First , in one sence , and the name retained though the thing signified received change ; as it was once of an Emperour of Rome , Tacitus . cui proprium fuit nuper reperta , ( I leave out scelera ) priscis verbis obtegere , whose property it was to cover things newly found with ancient tearmes , And the same Author tells us , that the same state , was as it were , cheated out of her liberty , because there did remaine eadem Magistratuum vocabula , the same titles of Magistrates : And I beleeve , that if the Protestants beyond the Seas would have thought Bishops as good a word as Super-intendents , ( and so in other such things ) many , who understand nothing but names , would have missed the scandale they have now taken . These waies I think these things may have come , without much opposition from being thought profitable to be done , and probable to be beleeved , to be thought necessary to be both ; and how things may have been by little and little received under old names , which would not have been so at once under new ones ; it is not hard to conceive .

The first of these being no such small fault , but that part of the Montanists Heresies was , thinking uncommanded fasting daies necessary to be observed , which without doubt might lawfully have been kept , so that no necessitie had been imposed .

But my maine answer is , that if to be in the Church without known precedent opposition , be a certaine note of being derived from the begining , let them answer how came in the opinion of the Chiliasts , not contradicted till two hundred yeares after it came in .

To condude , If they can prove that the Scripture may be a certainer teacher of truth to them , then to us , so that they may conclude the Infallibility of the Church out of it , and we nothing ; If they can prove the Churches Infallibility to be a suffcient Guide for him , that doubts which is the Church , and cannot examine that ( for want of learning ) by her chiefe marke , which is conformity with the Ancients : If they can prove , that the consent of Fathers long together , is a stronger Argument against us , then against the Dominicans ; If they can prove ( though it be affirmed by the first of them , that such a thing is Tradition , and beleeved by all Christians , and this assertion till a great while after , uncontradicted ) yet they are not bound to receive it , and upon lesse grounds we are ; If indeed any can prove by any infallible way , the Infallibility of the Church of Rome , and the necessity under paine of damnation for all men to beleeve it , ( which were the more strange , because Justin Martyr , and Clements Alexandrinus among the Ancients , and Erasmùs , and Ludovicus Vives among the Modernes , beleeve some Pagans to be saved ) I will subscribe to it , and

〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

If any man vouchsafe to think , either this , or the Authour of it , of value enough to confute the one , and informe the other , I shall desire him to do it with proceeding to the businesse , and not standing upon any small slip of mine , ( of which this may be full ) and with that temper , which is fit to be used by men that are not so passionate , as to have the definition of reasonable Creatures in vaine , remembring that Truth in likelyhood is , where her Author God was , in the still voice , and not the loud wind ; and that Epiphanius excuseth himself , if he have called any Hereticks in his anger , Deceivers , or Wretches , ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . ) and I request him also ; to help to bring me to the Truth , ( if I be out of it ) not onely by his arguments , but also by his Prayers ; which way if he use , and I still continue on the part I am of , and yet doe neither 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , nor 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , neither am willfully blind , nor deny impudently , what I see , then I am confident , that he will neither have reason to be offended with me in this world , nor God ( for that ) to punish me in the next .

AN ANSWER TO THE Lord FAVLKLANDS DISCOURSE OF INFALLIBILITY .

CHAP. I.

NAture being not able to perfect the work of humane kind , which shee had begun , and bursting at those throwes and springings , which her timely child gave , to see the light of eternall life , ( whereof the distaste of all things experienced in this world , and certain sparklings sowed in our soule had given it a dim notice ) expected from her mercifull Creator , the aid ( whereof how much greater the wonder was to bee , and the necessity , now divers thousand yeers by lamentable experience was more deer , so much the readier was he ) and it was to send from his eternall brest , his only wisedome to recount us wonders , and averre them under the seal of his immutable truth . He knew all secrets , and could not be touched with suspition of ignorance ; he was all goodness , and free from all calumnie of jealousie or envie : who knew him , could not mistrust him , for beside those great Verdicts alreadie expressed in his favour , his works gave assurance of his words , he fulfilling in deeds , whatsoever he perswaded in words , and working to himself , what he wished unto others . Lo here , the high , and sage Master of our faith , whose Oracles we cannot mis-doubt , so we be assured they are his ; and who hath in vain spent so much sweat , and pains , if after he passed from hence , he hath left no meanes to assure mankind , what it was hee taught and practised , and for the teaching and practising of it , eschewed not the stormie passage betwixt Bethlehem and Mount Calvarie : but as in Bethlehem he multiplied the three drops of his Circumcision into the thousands of innocent Brooks ; so upon the Mount Calvarie he opened the great Source , which hath now through 16. Ages irrigated the world with an infinitie of streames of proportionall examples of blood and sufferance . Now was his Legacie performed , and hee from Mount Olivet triumphantly returned , from whence he was come , and the world left to be saved by faith , that is , by a constant perswasion of those things which he had taught .

The Conditions of this Faith were three . First , That it should be a means fitting for humane kind , that is , for learned , and unlearned , for yong , and old , for wise , and fooles , for Princes and peasants , Rabbies , and Ideots . Secondly , That it should be a tenent , constant , undoubted , undisputable , uncontroulable . Thirdly , That it should be a rule of our life and actions , making but a passage of this present life , to the following , and teaching us to contemn the present and seen substance , in hope of an unseen and absent fortune . Certes , a hard taske , and which needeth to be well grounded and founded by God himself . For who well considereth it , cannot doubt it , to be as great a miracle ( to make the whole Masse of mankinde , to forsake what it seeth , and take to obscure hopes or things , it does not so much apprehend what they are ) as to force the strongest works of nature , to hang the sea in the aire , to alter the course of Moon , and Starres , and whatsoever else is strange and incredible in nature . Besides that , to make a way of knowledge common , and indifferent to learned , and unlearned , to make the ignorant understand , what the learned cannot reach unto , and the learned die in defence of the truth he hath no other warrant for , then because he hath learned it from an ignorant person , was the work of him alone who framed them both , and understood in what veins so different blouds doe run .

But done it was to be , and how ? Those to whom during his life , he had most fully declared his mind , went , and told it to others , and all was done . We cannot denie the way to have been fitting , and expedient , so it be found efficacious and powerfull to effect , what the Author intended . For if Faith must beleeve what Christ hath taught , what better instrument to breed faith , then who heard him speak ? If Faith must be common to learned , and unlearned , what better meanes , then by hearing ? From which no unlearnednesse can excuse , nor learnednesse be exempt . Every man may have from whom to hear and learn , if not a wiser then himselfe , yet one who may have properties to be a better witnesse . Children naturally beleeve what their parents tell them , unlearned men what Doctors teach them , absent men , what those who were present doe report . All this goeth very well , so that this Expedient prove efficacious to the end intended .

Object . But it hath the prejudice of humane fallibilitie , for who , for weaknesse that he doth not carry away what he hath heard , who , for vanity to seem to know more then his fellowes , who , to make some lucre of it , or for some emulation to some other ; but seldome it hapneth that a multitude can carry away a thing all in the same manner ; and 1600 yeers are passed since , so that it is not credible , a Doctrine so delivered can persever incorrupted until this day .

Answ. Yet if we look into the immediate progresse and joints of the descent , we cannot finde where it can misse , for the doctrine being supernaturall , and not delivered by mans skill or wit , the first and main principle of it can be no other , then to know what was delivered them by their Teachers , a thing not surpassing the understanding of any sensible wise man ; so that put but twenty wise understanding men to agree , that the Preacher , to their certaine knowledge , said such a thing , there remaineth no probable nor possible doubt , but that it was so .

Now then suppose , that one of those ( who having been taught by Christs own mouth , had received by the confirmation of the Holy Ghost , that he could neither forget nor forgoe this received doctrine ) should have preached over and over again the same doctrine not long , nor hard to be carryed away in all the Cities , Towns , and Boroughs of some great Country , so that whilst he stayd there , they were throughly understanding and endoctrinated in that way . Now let him be gone , and after him all dead , who had heard him speake ; and then some question arise concerning this doctrine ( as we may say in the second age ) let us see whether error can creep in or no , if the Christians keepe unto their hold . Their hold is what they were taught by Christs Apostles . Let therefore the wisest and best men of those Cities and Towns meet together about the controversie , and discusse it out of this principle ( what was delivered unto them as taught by the Apostles ) will not there be a quick end of their dispute ? For every man can say , My father heard the Apostle speak , he understood him to have said this , so he himselfe beleeved , so he taught me , that this was that which , the Apostle taught us . And when out of divers Cities and Towns , shall come a multitude of witnesses , all agreeing in one point , how can it be doubted , but that this is Christs doctrine , and that which his Apostle taught ? And to disagree how is it possible ? Since all their fathers heard the same things , and things not above their capacity , and often told them , and well apprehended by them when they were taught , and by consequence could not tell their children otherwise then what they had heard and understood , in a matter of such moment , and of which they apprehended no lesse , then that it concerned their own , and their childrens salvation , happinesse , or misery for all eternity . And what here is most evidently certaine , in the children of those who heard the Apostles , may be derived with as much evidence again in the grand-children , and so in every age even to our present ; for if in any age any question beginne , and it be reduced unto this principle ; what did our forefathers teach us ? neither can there be any pretended ignorance ( for who can be ignorant of what was taught him when he was a childe , and in what he was bred , as in the grounds and substance of his hopes , for all eternity ? )

True it is , that if men leave this principle , and seek to judge the controversie by learned discourse , then may the , Church be divided , one part following the authority of their Ancestors ; the other the subtle Arguments , and the great opinion they conceive , of the learning of their present Teachers : so that one side will claime succession , and to have received it from hand to hand ; the other the glory of great learning , and to have come by great industry to discover the errors of their forefathers . But it is evident , that if what the Apostles preached be the touchstone of what is true , and what they preached to be seen in what those beleeve who have heard them , and they who received it , from them that heard them ; It is most evident , I say , that the one part , who seek for Christian truth in learned discourse , must needs forgoe the most certain and easie way , of attaining unto what they aime at : And likewise evident , that who keep themselves duly and carefully unto this principle cannot possibly in any continuance of time , swerve from the truth which Christ hath left unto his Church . So that the whole difficulty is reduced unto this , whether the Church for so many ages be perpetually preserved in this principle , that what she received from her forefathers is , that she must beleive , and deliver unto her posterity ; A thing so grafted in nature ; which maketh us receive our being , our breeding , our learning , our goods , our estates , our arts , and all things we have , from our fathers , that it is a wonder of our mutability , that without forcible Engines we can be drawn from it .

CHAP. II.

NOw let us turn our discourse , and as we have seen , that if our Saviour ordred his Apostles in the manner explicated , there was no way for his Church to swerve from his truth , but by swerving from the most plain , the most naturall , and most evident , and concluding rule of his doctrine , and that but one , and most easie ; so let us see whether from the present Church we can draw the like forcible train , which may lead us up to Christ and his Apostles . Be therefore supposed or imagined , what no judicious man can deny to see with his eyes , if he hath never so little cast them upon this present religion of Christendome , to wit , that there is one Congregation or Church which layeth claime to Christ his doctrine , as upon this title , that she hath received it from his Apostles without interruption , delivered ever from Father to Sonne , from Master to Scholler , from time to time , from hand to hand , even unto this day ; and that she does not admit any other doctrine for good and legitimate , which she does not receive in this manner . Againe , that whosoever pretendeth Christ his truth against her , saith , that true it is , that once she had the true way , but that by length of time she is fallen into grosse errours which they will reforme , not by any truth they have received from hand to hand , from those who by both parts are acknowledged to have received their lesson from Christ and his Apostles , but by study and learned Arguments , either out of ancient Writers , or out of the secrets of nature and reason . This being supposed , either this principle hath remained unto her since the beginning , or she took it up in some one age of the 16 she hath endured ; if she took it up in some latter age , she then thought she had nothing in her what she had not received from her fore fathers in this sort : And if she thought so , she knew it . For as it is impossible now any country should think it was generally taught , such a thing if it were not so ; so also was there the like necessity , and impossibility to be otherwise , if all men were not runne mad . Therefore clear it is , she took it not up first then , but was in former possession , and so clear it is , that she could not have it now , if she had it not from the very beginning . Now if she had it , and hath conserved it from the beginning , no new opinion could take root in her , unlesse it came unto her under this Maxime , as received from hand , to hand ; and to say , that any opinion which was not truly received from hand to hand , should by such a community be accepted , as received from hand to hand , is to make it beleeve , what it seeth clearly to be false , to lye unto it's own soule , against it's own soule , and the soule of it's posterity . Let us adde to this , that the multitude of this Church is so dispersed through so many Countries and languages of so divers governments , that it is totally impossible they should agree together , or meet upon a false determination , to affirme with one consent a falsity for truth , no interest being able to be common unto them all to produce such an effect . Wherefore as an understanding man cannot chuse but laugh at the self-weening Hampshire Clown , who thinks in his heart there was no such Country as France , and that all that was told of it were but Travellers tales , because himselfe being upon the Sea shore , had seen nothing but water beyond England ; so I think no wise man will accompt him lesse then phrentick , that understandeth so little in humane wayes , as to think whole Nations by designe , or by hazard , can agree together to professe , and protest a thing , which they know of their own knowledge to be a meer lye , and a well known falshood to themselves , and all their neighbours .

CHAP. III.

THe force of the declared linke of succession , is so manifest to a capable understanding , that being compared with any objection made against it , it will of it selfe maintain it's evidence , and bear down the greatest oppositors and opposition , if the understanding be left unto it selfe , and not wrested by the prejudice of a some wayes interessed will . Neverthelesse , there is a deeper root , which greatly strengthens and reduceth into action , the former efficacity of the tradition . And this is , that Christian doctrine is not a speculative knowledge , instituted for delight of man to entertain his understanding , and hath no further end then the delectation which ariseth out of contemplation ; but it is an art of living , a rule of attaining unto eternall blisse , a practicall doctrine whose end is to informe our action , that our life and actions squared by her directions , may lead us to that great good , the which God Almighty esteemed so highly of ; that he thought it reason enough for himto shade his Divinity under the misery of man , to make us partakers of so great a blisse . Hence it followeth , that no error can fall , even in a point which seemeth wholly speculative in Christian faith , but soone it breedeth a practicall effect , or rather defection in Christian behaviour . What could seem more speculative , then whether the second , or third Persons of the Trinity were truly or participately God ? Yet no sooner was an error broached in these questions , but there followed a great alteration in Christian action ; in their Baptismes , in their manner of Prayer , in the motives of Love and Charity toward Almighty God , the very ground-work and foundation of all Christian life . Whether man hath free-will or no , seemeth a question , belonging to the nature of man , fit for a curious Phylosopher ; but upon the preaching of the negative part , presently followed an unknowen Libertinage , men yeilding themselves over to all concupiscence , since they were perswaded they had no power to resist , free-will being denyed . I need not instance in prayer to Saints , worshiping Images , prayer for the dead , and the like ; which is evident , could not be changed without an apparent change in Christian Churches . So that a doctrine contrary to faith , is like a disease , which although the cause be internall , yet cannot the effects and symptomes be kept from the outward parts and view of the world . The consequence which this note draweth , is , that it is not possible , that any materiall point of Christian faith can be changed , as it were by obreption , whilst men are on sleepe , but it must needs raise a great scandall and tumult in the Christian Common-weale . For suppose the Apostles had taught the world it were Idolatry to pray to Saints , or use reverence towards their Pictures : How can we imagine this honour brought in , without a vehement conflict and tumult , in a people which did so greatly abhor Idolatry , as the Apostles , Disciples did ? I might make the like instance in other points , if the whole History of the Church did not consist of the invasions made by Heretiques , and the great and most violent waving of the Church to and fro upon those occasions . We remember in a manner as yet , how change came into Germany , France , Scotland , and our own Country : Let those be a signe to us , what we may thinke can be the creeping in of false doctrine ; specially , that there is no point of doctrine , contrary to the Catholique Church , rooted in any Christian Nation , that the Ecclesiasticall History does not mention the times and combats by which it entred , and tore the Church in peices .

Let it therefore remaine for most evidently constant , that into the Christian Church can come no error , but it must be seen and noted , and raise scandall and opposition to shew it selfe ( as truly it is ) contrary to the nature of Piety and Religion .

And when it does come , it cannot draw after it any others , then such as first desert the root of Faith , and Anchor of Salvation , that is to be judged by what their fore-fathers taught them , and affirmed to have received from their Ancestors , as the Faith which Christ and his Apostles delivered to the whole world of their time , and to such as ever claime and maintaine the right of succession , as rule of what they beleeve . Yet may this also be worthy of consideration , that as in our naturall body , the principall parts are defended by Bones , Flesh , Skinnes , and such like defences , in such sort , that no outward Agent can come to offend them , before having annoyed some of these ; so in the Catholique faith , there are in speculation those we call Theologicall conclusions , and other pious opinions ; and in practise many Rites and Ceremonies , which stop the passage unto the maine principall parts of Christian beleife and action . And about these we see daily such great motions in the Catholique Church , that he must be very ignorant of the Spirit of God , which quickneth his Church , that can imagine any vitall part of his faith can be wounded while it lyes asleep , and is insensible of the harm befalleth it ; for as in any Science a principle cannot be mistaken , but it must needs draw a great shoale of false consequence upon it , and lame the whole Science , so never so little an error in faith can be admitted , but in other Tenets and Ceremonies it must needs make a great change , and innovation .

CHAP. IV.

NOw let any discreet man consider , what further evidence he can desire , or peradventure , what greater assurance nature can afford , and not be of an awkward wilfulnesse to aske , that which is not conformable to the lawes of nature ? Much like unto him , who being sate in a chaire far from the chimney , could not think of applying himselfe to the fire , but was angry the fire and chimney were made so far from him . The Phylosophers say , it is indisciplinati ingenii to expect in any Art or Science more exactnesse then the nature of it affordeth . As if a man would bind a Seaman , to goe so far every day , whether wind and weather served or no : So in morall matters , and such as are subject to humane action , we must expect such assurance as humane actions , beare . If for the government of your spirituall life , you have as much as for the managing of your naturall and civill life , what can you expect more ? Two or three witnesses of men , beyond exception , will cast a man out of , not onely his lands , but life and all . He that amongst Merchants will not adventure , when there is a hundred to one of gaining well , will be accompted a silly Factor . And amongst Souldiers , he that will feare danger where but one of a hundred is slaine , shall not escape the stain of Cowardise . What then shall we expect in Religion , but to see a maine advantage on the one side , we may cast our selves on ? and for the rest remember we are men , creatures subject to chance and mutability , and thank God he hath given us that assurance in a supernaturall way , which we are content withall , in our naturall and civill ventures and possessions , which neverthelesse God knoweth we often love better , and would lesse hazard then the unknowne good of the life to come . Yet peradventure , God hath provided better for his Church then for Nature , since he loved her more , and in his own Person did more for her . Let us therefore examine the assurance he hath left her particularly . It was found in the second Chapter , upon this principle , that so great a multitude of men as cleave to this ground ( to have received their faith by tradition ) could not conspire by lying , to deceive their posterity . And if I be not deceived , this principle being granted , the conclusion ( that this present Church is the true ) followeth in as severe a way of discourse , as in Aristotles Organ is taught , and exemplified in Mathematicall Writers ; whose use and art it is to put the like suppositions , whence to enduce something out against their principle . As in the said Chapter you are bidden , to put what yeare , or age such an error entred , and it is evidently true , that if it be true , then that yeare or age conspired to tell a lye to deceive their posterity . And as for the strength of their principle it selfe ( although no morall man can be so absurd as to doubt of it ) yet may we consider , that the understanding being the part , which maketh man to be a man , and truth being the perfection of our understanding , and true speech the effect , naturall to true knowledge , or understanding : It is cleare , that to speak truth is as naturall a fruit of mans nature , as Peares of a Peare tree , Grapes of a Vine , Hony of the Bee : and that it can be no lesse grafted in nature , for men to speak truly , then it is in any other naturall cause to yeeld the fruit , for whose sake nature bred the cause . Wherefore as the constancy of the effect sheweth , that it holdeth upon eternall principles , that no one species of perfect creatures can perish , although we are not so skilfull of nature , as hansomely to weave the demonstration ; so cannot it be doubted , but that if one had all the principles of mans nature well digested , he might demonstratively deduce the impossibility , of ( that such multitudes of men should conspire to a lye ) the variety of particulars , ever holding their being from a constancy and uniformity in the universall . Adde to this the notoriousnesse of the lye , such as he is rarely found , that is , so wicked as to venture upon ; besides the greatnesse of the subject , and of the danger ensuing upon himselfe , and his dearest pledges . The ground therefore assumed , is a demonstrative principle , and peradventure in a higher degree then most physicall principles be : For who knoweth not the nature of the soule , to be the highest thing Physicks can reach unto ? Who knoweth not , that immateriall things are lesse subject to mutability then those which are grounded in matter ? Then as more noble , and as more immateriall , it hath greater exemption from mutability , then any other naturall cause whatsoever . One addition more , may chance to cleare the whole businesse more fully . Nothing more cleare then that , no naturall cause faileth of his effect , without there be some impediment from a stronger . Now the impediments which hinder a man from speaking truth , experience teacheth us , to be no other then hopes and feares . The same experience giveth us to know , that it is a rare thing , that hopes and feares should comprehend so great multitudes , as are in the union of the Catholique Church , specially during an age , which is the least time necessary for the effect we speak of ; that what peradventure might at one time be ill admitted , should not be rejected at another . But if there were ; can any man be so mad as to think , it could be a secret hope or feare , which should not break our amongst the posterity , and be knowen , that what was done was not true , but counterfeited upon feare or interest , which if it were , a whole ages counterfeiting would not be sufficient to make the posterity beleeve , they had received such a point of doctrine by tradition . Wherefore I doe not see , how this principle of tradition , and the doctrine received by it , can be accompted of lesse certainty , then any Physicall demonstration whatsoever ; or Faith upon this ground not as sure as any naturall cause , as the course of Sunne and Moon , as the flowing and ebbing of the Sea , as the Summer and Winter , Sowing and Harvest , and whatsoever we undoubtedly presume upon the like nature , and kind .

The principle which is taken in the following Chapter , is of no lesse force ( if not of far better ) to who rightly understandeth the nature of God his workes , whose course it is deeplier to root and strengthen those things which he would have most to flourish , or whereof he hath most care . Now Christians well know , that God Almighty hath made mankind for his elect , as the world which is about us for mankind . And therefore he hath rooted those things which more immediately belong to the Elect ( as is his Church , his Faith , and Holy Spirit in it ) more strongly then the principles either of mans nature , or of , the world which was made for it : himselfe assuring us of it , when he told us , One title should not misse of the holy Writ , though Heaven and Earth should be dissolved . And so seeing the latter principle , relyed upon the not failing of Gods Holy Spirit to his Church , which should ever watch upon their actions , that nothing should creep into Christian life , which persently the zeale of his faithfull should not startle at . I think it needlesse to seek to further qualifie the strength of that part , which receiveth it from the quality of so good a workman as was the Holy Ghost .

CHAP. V.

I Doubt not but whosoever shall have received satisfaction in the discourse passed , will also have received in that point we seeke after ; that is in being assured both that Christ hath left a Director in the world , and where to find him , there being left no doubt , but it is his holy Church upon earth . Nor can there be any question , which is this Church , sithence there is but one that doth and can lay claime , to have received from hand to hand his holy doctrine in writings and hearts . Others may cry loud , they have found it , but they must first confesse it was lost : and so if they have , it was not received by hands , I meane , as far as it disagreeth with Catholique doctrine ; so that where there is not so much as claime , there can be no dispute . And that this Church is a lawfull directresse , that is , hath the conditions requisite , I think can no wayes be doubted . Let us consider in her , presence , or visibility , authority , power . As for the first , her multitude and succession , makes the Church if she is ever accessible , ever knowen . The Arrians seemed to chase her out of the world in their flourish , but the persecution moved against her , made her even then well known and admired . In our owne Countrey we have seen no Bishop , no forme of Church for many yeares ; yet never so , but that the course of justice did proclaime her through England , and who was curious could never want meanes to come to know her confession of faith what it is , and upon what it is grounded . Wheresoever she is , if in peace , her Majesty and Ceremonies in all her actions , make her spectable and admired . If in war , she never wanteth Champions to maintain her , and the very heat of her adversaries , makes her known to such as are desirous to understand the truth of a matter so important , as is the eternall welfare of our soule .

For Authority : her very claime of antiquity and succession ( to have been that Church which received her beginning from Christ and his Apostles , and never forewent it , but hath ever maintained it ) giveth a great reverence unto her amongst those , who beleeve her , and amongst those , who with indifferency and love of truth , seek to inform themselves ; a great prejudice above others : For it draweth a greater likelyhood of truth , then others have . And if it be true , it carrieth an infinite authority with it , of Bishops , Doctors , Martyrs , Saint , miracles , learning , wisedome , venerable antiquity , and the like : that if a prudent man should sit with himselfe and consider , that if he were to chuse what kind of one he would have it , to carry away the hearts of men towards the admiration and love of God Almighty , he could find nothing wanting in this , that could be maintained with the fluxibility of nature . For to say , he would have no wicked men in it , were to say , he would have it made of Angels and not of Men.

There remaineth Power : the which no man can doubt but Christ hath given it most ample , who considereth his words so often repeated to his Apostles . But ( abstracting from that ) who doth not see , that the Church hath the nature and proportion of ones Country , unto every one ? As in a mans Country , he hath Father , and Mother , Brothers , Sisters , Kinsfolkes , Allyes , Neighbours , and Country-men , which anciently were called Cives , or Concives , and of these are made his Country ; so in the Church findeth he in way of spirituall instruction and education , all these degrees neerer and farther off , until he come unto that further most of being , of all united under the universall Government of Christ his Vicar : And as he in his Countrey findeth bearing , breeding , settling in estates and fortunes , and lastly protection and security ; so likewise in the way of Christianity doth he find this more fully in the Church : so that if it be true , that a man oweth more unto his Master then unto his Father , because bene esse is better then esse : certainly a man also ( as far as Church and Country can be separated ) must owe more to the Church then to his very Country ; wherefore likewise the power which the Church hath to command and instruct , is greater then the power of the temporall Country , and community , whereof he is part ; Againe , this Church can satisfie learned and unlearned . For in matters above the reach of reason , whose source and spring is from what Christ and his Apostles taught , what learned man , that understands the nature of science and method , can refuse in his inmost soule to bow to that which is testified by so great a multitude , to have come from Christ : And what unlearned man can require more for his faith , then to be taught by a Mistresse of so many prerogatives and advantages above all others ? Or how can he think to be quieted in conscience , if he be not content to fare as she doth , who hath this prerogative , evident that none is so likely by thousands of degrees .

CHAP. VI.

THe stemme and body of our position thus raised , will of it selfe shoot out the branches of divers Questions , or rather the solution thereof .

And first , How it hapned that diverse Heretiques have pretended tradition ( the Millenarians , Carpocratians , Gnostiaks , and divers others ) yet they with their traditions have been rejected , and the holy Church left onely in claime of tradition ?

For if we look into , what Catholique tradition is , and what the said Heretiques pretended , under the name of Tradition , the question will remain voided . For the Catholique Church calleth Tradition , that doctrine which was publikely preached in the Churches , ordred and planted in the manners and customes of the Church . The Heretiques called Tradition a kind of secret doctrine , either gathered out of private conversation with the Apostles , or rather they pretended that the Apostles , besides what they publikely taught the world , had another private or mysticall way proper to Schollers , more endeared then the rest , which came not to publike view , but was in huggermugger delivered from those secret Disciples unto others , and so unto them ; where it is easily seen , what difference there is betwixt this Catholique Tradition and this pretended . For ( the force and energie of tradition residing in the multitudes of hearers , and being planted in the perpetuall action , and life of Christians , so that it must have such a publicity that it cannot be unknown amongst them . ) Those the Heretiques pretend both manifestly , want the life and being of traditions , and by the very great report of them lose all authority and name . For , suppose some privare doctrine of an Apostle to some Disciple , should be published and recorded by that Disciple , and some others , this might well be a truth , but would never obtain the force of a Catholique position , that is , such as it should be damnation to reject , because the descent from the Apostle is not notorious , and fitting to sway the body of the whole Church .

The Second Question may be , How it commeth to passe , that something which at first bindeth not the Churches beleef , afterward commeth to bind it ? For if it were ever a Tradition it must ever be publique , and bind the Church : And if once it were not , it appeareth not how ever it could come to be ; for if this age , ( for example ) hath it not , how can it deliver it over to the next age that followeth ?

But if we consider , that the hope of Christian doctrine being great , and the Apostles preaching in so great varietie of Countries , it might happen some point in one Countrie to have been lesse understood , or peradventure not preached at all , which in another was often preached , and well both understood and retained , we may easily free our selves from these brambles . For the Spirit of Tradition residing in this , that the testimony of that , the Apostles delivered this Doctrine be exceptione majus , and beyond all danger of deceit ; It is not necessary to the efficaciousness of Tradition , that the whole universall Church be witnesse to such a truth , but so great a part as could be a Warrant against mistaking and deceit ; so that if all the Churches of Asia , or Greece , or Aphrique , or Egypt , should constantly affirm such a Doctrine to have been delivered unto them by the Apostles , it were enough to make a Doctrine exceptione majorem : Whence it insueth that if in a meeting of the Universall Church it were found that such a part had such a Tradition , concerning some matter , whereof the rest either had no knowledge or no certainty , such a Doctrine would passe into a necessary bond in the whole Church , which before was either unknown or doubted of in some part thereof . A likely example thereof might be in the Canonicall bookes , the which being written some to one Church , and some to another , by little and little were spread from those Churches unto others , and so some sooner , some later , received into the constant beleife of the Catholique world .

The Third question may be , How ( Christian religion , consisting in so many points ) it is possible to be kept incorrupted by tradition , the which depending on memory , and our memory being so fraile , and subject to variation , it seemeth , cannot without manifest miracle , conserve so great diversity of points unchanged , for so many ages ?

But if we consider , that Faith is a Science , and Science a thing whose parts are so connexed , that if one be false , all must needs be false , we shall easily see that contrarily ; the multitude of divers points is a conservation the one to the other . For , if one be certaine , it of it selfe is able to bring us to the right in another , whereof we doubt . And as in a mans body , if he wanteth one member , or the operation of it , he must needs find the want of it in another : And as a Common-wealth that is well ordained , cannot misse any office or part , without the redounding of the dessect upon the whole , or some other part ; so a Christian , being an essence instituted by God , as specially as any naturall creature , hath not the parts of his faith and action by accident and chance knitted together , but all parts by a naturall order , and will of the Maker , ordred for the conservation of the most inward essence , which is the charity we owe to God , and our Neighbour . Wherefore Christian life and action consisteth but upon one main tradition , whose parts be those particulars , which men specifie , either in matter of Beleefe or Action : So that this connextion of its parts amongst themselves , added to the Spirit of God , ever conserving zeale in the heart of his Church , with those helpes also of nature ( wherewith we see wonders in this kind done ) will shew this conservation to be so far from impossibility , that it will appeare a most con-naturall and fitting thing . Let us but consider , it constant nations , their language , their habits , their manners of sacrificing , eating , generally living ; how long it doth continue amongst them . See that forlorne nation of Jewes , how constantly it maintaineth the Scripture ? how obstinately their errors ? The Arabians of the desert , from Ismael his time unto this day , live in families , wandring about the desert . Where Christians labour to convert Idolaters , they find the maine and onely argument for their errors , that they received them from their fore-fathers , and will not quit them . The King of Socotora , thinking to please the Portugals by reducing a nation , that had the name of Christians , to true Christianity , he found them obstinately protest unto him , that they would sooner lose their lives , then part with the religion their Ancestors had left them . The Maronites , a small handfull of people , amongst Turks and Heretiques , to this day have maintained their religion in Siria . And certainly thousands of examples of this kind may be collected in all Nations and Countries ; especially , if they be either rude , and such as mingle not with others , or such as be wise , and out of wisedome seek to maintaine their ancient beleefe . And Catholiques are of both natures : For they have strict commands , not to come to the Ceremonies and Rites of other religions , and in their own , they have all meanes imaginable to affect them to it , and conserve a reverence and zeale towards it .

CHAP. VII .

TO come at length to the principall aime of this Treatise , that is , to give an answer to him that demandeth a guide at my hands . I remit him to the moderne present visible Church of Rome , that is , her , who is in an externe sensible communion with the externe sensible Clergy of Rome , and the externe sensible Head and Pastour of the Church . If he aske me now , how he shall know her ? ( I suppose he meaneth , how he should know her to be the true ) I must contreinterrogate him , who he is ? that is , in whose name he speaketh ? Is he an ignorant man ? Is he unlearned ? yet of good understanding in the world ? Is he a Scholler ? and what Scholler ? A Gramarian , whose understanding hath no other helpe then of languages ? Is he a Phylosopher ? Is he a Divine ? ( I meane an Academicall one , for a true Divine is to teach , not to aske this question : ) Is he a Statesman ? For he who can think one answer , can or ought be made to all these ; may likewise expect , that a round bowle may stop a square hole , or one cause produce all effects , and hang lead at his heels to fly withall . Yet I deny not , but all these must have the same guide , though they are to be assured of , that in divers sorts and manners . If therefore the ignorant man speaketh , I will shew him in the Church of God an excellencie in decencie , Majestie of Ceremonies above all other Sects and Religions , whereby dull capacities are sweetly ensnared , to beleeve the truth they hear , from whom they see to have the outward Signs of vertue and devotion . If the unlearned ask ; I shew him the claim of Antiquitie , the multitude , the advantages of sanctity and learning , the justifiableness of the cause , how the world was once in this accord , and those who opposed , when they first parted , first began the Schism ; how the points of difference be such as on the Catholike side help devotion , and on the contrary diminish the same , and such like sensible differences which will clearly shew a main advantage on the Catholike side , which is the proportionall motive to his understanding : To the Grammarian I will give two Memorandums .

First , that seeing Catholiques were first in possession both of the Scriptures and the interpretations , the adverse part is bound to bring such places as can receive no probable Exposition by the Catholikes . It is not sufficient that their Expositions seem good or better ; that is , more conformable unto the Text , but they must be evincent , to which no so sound answer , even with some impropriety can be given . For who knoweth not , that is conversant in Criticks , how many obscure , and difficult places occurre in most plain Authors : and the Scripture of all Books ( the greater part of the men who wrote them , specially the new Testament , being not eloquent , and writing not in their native tongue ) for the most part are subject to many Improprieties .

The other Memorandum is , That to prove a Catholike point by Scripture , it is sufficient that the place brought , do bear the Explication the Catholike beareth , and if it be more probable by the very letter , it is an evincent place . The reason is , Because the Question being about a Christian Law , the Axioms of the Jurists taketh place that Consuetudo optima interpres Legis . So that if it be manifest that Christian practise ( which was before the controversie ) be for the one sense , and the words be tolerable , no force of Grammar can prevail to equalize this advantage . The Grammarian therefore who will observe these rules , I turn him loose to the Scriptures , and Fathers to seek in them what is the faith of Christ , and properties , of his Church to know her by . Of the the Philosopher I exact to go like a Philosopher , and to search out the pecificall differences of every Sect , and when he hath found them , if any one but the Catholike hath any rule of Faith and good life : which I remit to him to enquire ? But at least when he hath found the Catholiques to be this claim of Tradition before declared , then , if this doe not bring him as demonstratively , as he knoweth any conclusion in Philosophie , and Mathematicks , to the notice that this is the only true Church of Christ , for my part I shall quit him before God and man . The Divine if he hath truly understood the principles of his Faith in the nature of a Divine ( I mean , Trinity , Incarnation , Redemption , Eucharist , Beatitude , the Creation and Dissolution of the World ) and hath seen the exact conformitie with the deepest principles of nature , with an unspeakable wisedome of the contriver : If he does not plainly confesse it was above the nature of man to frame the Catholike-Religion , and seeth not that onely , that is conformable to nature and it selfe ; I say , he hath no ground sufficient to be of it . At last , the Statesman who is truly informed of the Church , ( how far it is really of Christs Institution , and what either pious men have added , or peradventure , ambitious men encroached , ) If he does not find a government of so high and Exotick strain , that neither mans wit would dare to have attempted it , neither mans power could possibly have effected it . If he findeth not eminent helpes , and no disadvantage to the temporall government , I shall think there wanteth one Star in the Heaven of the Church , to direct these Sages to Bethlehem . But if God Almighty hath in all sorts and manners provided his Church , that she may enlighten every man in his way , which goeth the way of a man ; then let every man consider , which is the fit way for himselfe , and what in other matters of that way he accompteth evidence . And , if there be no interest in his soule , to make him loath to beleeve , what in another matter of the like nature he would not stick at , or heavy to practise what he seeth clearly enough , I feare not his choice ; but if God send him time and meanes to prosecute his search any indifferent while , it is long ago known of what religion he is to be of

After this followeth no order of Chapters , because it is applied to the discourse which was occasion of it .

Although if what is already be not satisfaction unto the writing , and the Author thereof , ( for whose sake and contentment , all that hath been discoursed hitherto , hath been set down : ) I confesse , that I have not ability to give him satisfaction : yet least it should be interpreted neglect , If I did not make an application of it unto the writing , I shall as breifly as I can , for avoiding tediousnesse , runne over the discourse . And true it is , speaking of the Church of Rome , as this day it is the true Church of God : I answer the doubter , she neither hath , nor can have any error , which he need to feare , and be shye of . The which two limitations I adde , for avoiding questions , impertinent to our discourse . The first , for those which are concerning the connection of the Sea of Rome to the universall Church . The latter , to avoid such questions as touch that point , whether the Church may erre , in any Phylosophicall or other such like matter ? which questions are not so pertinent to our matter .

Neither doe I remit the Questioner unto Scripture for his satisfaction , although I hold Scripture a very sufficient meanes , to satisfie the man , who goeth to it with that preparation of understanding and will , which is meet and required . Howsoever this I may answer , for them who prove it out of Scripture , that because they dispute against them who admit of Scripture , and deny the authority of the Church , if they can convince it , they doe well ; though they will not themselves admit generally of a proofe our of Scripture , as not able to prove every thing in foro contentioso .

That they say , the Church is made infallible , that we may have some guide , I think it very rationall . For nature hath given ever some strong and uncontroulable principle in all natures to guide the rest . The Common-wealth hath a Governour not questionable , our understanding hath some principles , which she cannot judge , but by them judgeth of all other verities . If there should not be some such principle in the Church , it were the onely maimed thing God had created ; and maimed in its principall part , in the very head . And if there be such a principle , the whole Church is infallible by that , as the whole man seeth by his eyes , toucheth by his hands . Neither can I deny , but that the Author well excepteth , or assumeth , that there is no lesse necessity , the Church should be known to be infallible , or which is this Church , then that there is one . For if I should admit absolutely , that it is necessary for every man to know the Church is Infallible , precedently to the knowledge of which is the true Church , I should forget what I had before said , that satisfaction is to be given to every one , according to his capacity . It is sufficient for a Childe to beleeve his Parents , for a Clown to beleeve his Preacher , about the Churches Infallibility . For Faith is given to mankind , to be a meanes to him of beleeving , and living like a Christian : and so he hath this second , it is not much matter in what termes he be with the first . The good women and Clownes in Italy , and Spaine , trouble not themselves to seek the grounds of their faith , but with a Christian simplicity , seek to live according unto that their Preachers tell them ; and without question , by perseverance , come to the happinesse , great Clearks by too much speculation may faile of . Such therefore know no otherwise the Infallibility of the Church , then because she telleth it them , to whom they give credit , as innocently as any child to his Mother .

The Church therefore was made infallible , because so it was fitting for her Maker , so it was fitting for her selfe , so it was fit for that part of mankind , that had more refined wits ; not because it was necessary for every one which was to come to her , or live in her , whereof the greatest part first commeth to her , drawn by some of the meanes before delivered , and beleeveth her about her infallibility .

Neither doe I remit him to a generall and constant tradition , as if himselfe should climbe up every age by learned Writers , and find it in every one . I take it to be impossible . Testimonies one may find in many ages , but such as will demonstrate and convince , a full tradition , I much doubt . Neither doe I find by experience , that who will draw a man by a rope or chain , giveth him the whole rope or chaine into his hands , but onely one end of it , unto which if he cleave hard , he shall be drawn which way the rope is carried . Tradition is a long chaine , every generation or delivery from father to sonne , being a link in it . I send him therefore no further then to this present age , where he shall ( beyond all doubtfulnesse ) find that this doctrine was delivered unto this age , by the care of their Ancestors . And if we seek upon what termes , we find , that upon a fixed opinion of damnation in failing ; and so , that they had received it so from their fore-fathers upon the same termes , with opinion that it had continued ever since Christ his time by this meanes . And he who is able to look into the meanes , how this can remaine constantly so many ages , may find it not onely the far securer , but an evidently infallible succession of doctrine , inviolable as long as there is a Church . And this doth not onely shew that there is one , but which she is , and that there can be no other . For I suppose , no man will be so senselesse as to say , the Apostles preached one thing in one part , and the contrary in another : wherefore it will be agreed , that once the Church agreed in her faith . This supposed , let us set the time when one part changed , and will it not be evident , that the changing Church being challenged cannot plead , she received it from her Ancestors , because it is manifestly false to both parties ? Then must needs one onely Church remain with that claime . And although we did not know what the Greek Church doth by her History , yet the force of consequence would tell us , they cannot doe this which the Westerne Church doth , because the doing of one is incompatible with the doing of the same by the other .

As for the two places concerning the Popes and Councels infallibility , it is not to my purpose to medle of them , because on the one side , the way I have begun , there is no need of those discourses ; and on the other , I should engage my selfe in quarrels betwixt Catholique , and Catholique , obscure the matter I have taken in hand , and profit nothing in my hearers , more then to be judged , peradventure to have more learning then wisedome to governe it withall . Wherefore I shall omit those Paragraphes , if I onely note concerning the tradition imposed upon Papius , that the very narration of it , sheweth that it is no tradition , in the sence we speak of tradition , but in the sence some Heretiques have pretended tradition ; as it were a doctrine secretly delivered , and gathered out of private conference with the Apostles , and not their publique preaching delivered to the Churches , which is the way we exalt tradition in . The witnesses also of ancient Fathers are no parts of tradition , but signes and markes where it hath passed , whereas the body of tradition is in the life and beleife of the whole Church . For the Church ( as I have said ) is an essence composed , as it were , of interne and externe parts ; the interne being faith , the externe , the outward action , which must needs be conformable to the internall faith , nor can there be a materiall change in the action , but it must argue the internall change of faith , nor internall change in faith , but it must draw with it an Iliad of altered actions .

As for the place of Fevardentius , which alloweth many Fathers to have fallen into errors , I thinke it will not trouble him , who is acquainted with the course of the present Church , wherein divers , who be thought great Divines , fall into errors , for which their bookes sometimes are hindred from the print , sometimes , recalled , or some leaves commanded to be pasted up . The reason is , the multiplicity of Catholique doctrine , which doth not oblige a man to the knowledge of every part , but to the prompt subjection , to the instruction of the Church , wherefore many men may hold false doctrine inculpably , not knowing it to be such , even now after the learned labours of so many , that have strived to open and facilitate by method , what is true and what is false ; much more in the Fathers times , when there was great want of so many compilers , as these latter ages have produced .

As for the two points , he saith , avert him from Catholique doctrine , I am mistaken , if he be not mistaken in both . The first is , that Catholique doctrine damnes all , who are not in the union of their Church . He thinketh the sentence hard , yet , I thinke he will not deny me this , that if any Church does not say so , it cannot be the true Church : For call the Church what you will , the Congregation of the Elect , the Congregation of the Faithfull , the Congregation of Saints , or Just ; call it , I say , or define it what you will , doth it not clearly follow , that whosoever is out of that Church cannot be saved ; for he shall not be Elect , Just , Faithfull , &c. without which there is no Salvation . How then can any Church maintaine these two propositions ? I am the true Church , and yet one may be saved , without being in me . But peradventure he is scandalized , that the Catholique Church requireth actuall communion , externall with her , which he thinketh in some case may be wanting , without detriment of Salvation . But how would he have the Church speake , which speaketh in common , but abstracting from such particular cases , as may change wholly the nature of the question . For example sake ; hath not the Church reason to say , he that denyeth the blessed Trinity is an Heretique ? It hapneth , one who hath conversed among the Tritheites , hearing them use the word Trinity for three Gods , meaning to speak against them , denyeth there is any Trinity ; shall this man be comprehended in the foresaid condemnation ? Or was the sentence ill pronounced ? Neither , as I think . For both was it well done by the Church , to condemne denyers of the Trinity , because per se loquendo ( as the Phylosophers speak ) that is , according to the ordinary course , and nature of things , who denyeth a thing in words , denyeth it in heart ; yet the man fore-spoken , did not so , and was not condemned in that sentence . In like manner , when the Church condemneth all such as are not in actuall union , and communion with her , she doth well : because according to the ordinary course , this doth not fall out , without either presumption , and damnable pride , or else culpable , either ignorance , or feare , and love of private interest , before God and his Church . But it followeth not thence , that by accident no man may sometime be excused . The words of our Saviour concerning Baptisme and Eucharist their necessity , are very precise , yet the Church doubteth not to excuse those who have it in voto .

But to proceed unto the point . The corrent of Catholique Doctors holdeth , that no man shall be damned for infidelity , but he who wilfully doth mis-beleeve , and that to doe so , it is required that faith be sufficiently proposed unto him . And what is to be sufficiently proposed , is not determined amongst them . There wanteth not Divines , that teach , that even ignorantia affectata , doth excuse from Herisie .

On the other side it is most certaine , that no man is damned for not professing , what he is not damned for not beleeving . Wherefore profession being that which engrafteth a man exteriorly in the Church of God , according unto the ordinary opinions of Catholiques ; it followeth , that no man is condemned for not being of the Church , who is not for infidelity , for which it is a very uncertaine case , who be damned and who not . So that the Catholique position is not so crude , as peradventure the Author understood it to be , though the words be rough , and ought to be so , as being of what is according to the course of nature , not what chance and accidents may invent .

The other point was of puting Heretiques to death , which I think he understandeth to be done Vindicatively , not Medicinally . I meane imposed as a punishment , and not in way to prevent mischeife , or oppresse it in the head . If the Circumcellians were the first , that is ancient enough for the justification of the fact , although for banishment ( which also he seemeth to reprehend ) we know the first that could suffer it , did suffer it . Arrius , I meane , by the hand of Constantine , whom he praiseth for a speech he uttered , before he knew the consequence of the danger , and seemeth to reprehend for his after and better wits . Saint Augustine justifieth such proceeding against Here tiques . Saint Gregory advised the like against Pagans , ( if I remember ) and the Church laterly , hath rather increased then decreased in the practise of it . Mores's speech , I beleeve is mistaken , the force of it being , that the banishment of Bishops shewed his faith , because the banished were Catholiques , which shewed Lucius to be none . But what can be said , if the Church useth that for the prevention of a greater , and more dangerous evill , which all politique Estates use for the remedies of lesse , and lesse dangerous evils , and are commended for it ? For if Faith be the way of Salvation ▪ and hereby the bane of Faith ; if Salvation be the greatest good , then the danger of a Countries being over runne with Heresie , is the greatest of dangers , greater then the multiplying of Theeves , greater then the unsurety of the wayes , greater then a Plague , or Invasion . Why then doth not reason force us to use the meanes to prevent it , which the same reason and experience , teacheth us to be most efficacious in this , and all other contagious and gangrening maladies of the Common-wealth . I hope reason it selfe , and the zeale of the Author to his own and Countries Salvation , will supply my shortnesse in this point . For supposing a Church be assured she is in the right , and that the doctrine preached by another , leadeth to damnation , I know not why Caipha's words should not be propheticall in this case , and that truly it doth not expedire , that unus moriatur pro populo , & non tota gens pereat .

He urgeth afterwards against the unity of the Church , that it is none such as we brag off . And I confesse we brag of it , and thinke we have reason too . And if it please him to look into the difference of our Country of England , and some Land of Barbarians , as Brasile , or such other , where they live without Law or Government . I thinke he will find , that our bragging is not without ground . For wherein is the difference betwixt a civill Government , and a barbarous Anarchie ? Is it either , that in a civill Estate there be no quarrels , or amongst Barbarians there is no quiet . The former would prejudice our Courts and Justice , the latter is impossible , even in nature . What is then the goodnesse of Government , but that in a well govern'd Country , there is a meanes to end quarrels , and in an Anarchy there can be no assured peace ? This therefore is that we brag of , that amongst us , if any controversie rise , there is a way to end it , which is not amongst them who part from us . And secondly , that there is no assured agreement amongst those who are parted from us ; for although to day they agree , there is no bond , nor tye , why to morrow they may not disagree . These two things we brag of , and I think the Author will not deny it . For he confesseth we all agree , in that the Church is an infallible Mistresse . Then it is evident , that if in any controversie she interposeth her judgement , the controversie is ended . He likewise confesseth , that who part from us , have no such definitive authority amongst them , and that Scripture whereon they relie , hath not this vertue , to take up controversies clearly . Againe , I doe confesse , most English men confesse a Trinity , the Incarnation , and Passion of our Saviour , but if to morrow , any one or more of them , light upon some book of an Arrian , Trinitarian , or other Sect , so wittily written , that he putteth probable solutions for the places of Scriptures , sheweth slight wayes , how our well-meaning fore-fathers may have slipped into such an error ; what is there to retaine these men , from disagreeing with the rest of their brethern , and betake themselves to the Arrians : And when the heat is passed , light upon some Rabbi , who shall cunningly exaggerate the absurdities ( as he shall terme them ) of the Trinity , Incarnation , Passion ; say our Saviour did strange things in vertue of some constellation , and delivering these things so oratorically , that for a new heat these things shall seem more conformable , then his Arrianisme ; what then shall hinder this to become a Jew , and at last to prove himselfe so great a Clerk , as to write De Tribus Impostoribus . Take away the power of the Church ( which every man doth , who taketh away the Infallibility ) what can retaine any man , why he should not yeeld to that discourse , which seemeth fairest , seeing nothing is certaine ? But peradventure , some may attribute power unto the Church without Infallibility , whom I would have consider , but what himselfe saith . For his Church , by the power it hath , must either say , I command you to beleeve me , or I command you to professe this , whether you beleeve me or no. The second I think , no enemy of equivocation will admit , as the former is as much , as if it should say , I know not whether I say true or no , yet you must think I say true . So that if I understand any thing , where there is no Infallibility , there is no Power , where no Power , no Unity , where no Unity , no Entity , no Church . Now for the controversies mentioned ( besides that , there is a meanes to terminate them ) they be such , as bring no breach of the ancient life , and action of Christians , which all those Opinions doe , which for the most part are reputed to make Heretiques ; That some controversies amongst us are not resolved , is a thing necessary amongst humane affaires , where things must have a time to be borne , to encrease , to fall ; and the greater things are , the greater is their period . Wherefore I doe not see , why this may hurt the Church , more then the Suits which hang in our Courts , prejudice the Government of the Land . Neither can any other Church assume Infallibility to it selfe ; because it cannot lay hold of this principle , that it receiveth its doctrine by hands ; and so must first professe the Church of Christ to be fallible , or else it cannot part from it .

The last point of the Authors discourse , is , to shew how errors might have crept in . Wherein I shall have no opposition with him , for I doe not thinke the question is , how they should creep in , but how they should be kept out ? For the fluxibility of humane nature is so great , that it is no wonder if errors should have crept in , the wayes being so many , but it is a great wonder of God , that none should have crept in . This neverthelesse I may say , ( if the Author will confesse , ( as I think ) he will not deny , but that it is disputable , whether any error in sixteen ages hath crept in ) this very thing is above nature . For if there were not an excellency beyond the nature of corruptible things , it would be undeniably evident , that not one or two , but hundreds of errors had quite changed the shape of the Church in so many yeares , tempests , divisions , want of commerce in the body of the Church . But this one maxime , that she receiveth her Faith by Tradition , and not from Doctors , hath ever kept her entire . And he that will shew the contrary , must shew how it could come to passe , that those who lived in such an age , could say unto their children , this we received from our fore-fathers , as taught them by their fore-fathers , to have been received from Christ and his Apostles , from hand to hand ; which if it could not be , the question is resolved , that no error is in the Church of God , which holdeth her faith upon that tenure .

And truly , if the Author desire to examine many Religions , let him look their main ground wherein they relye , and see whether that be good or no. And I thinke amongst Christians he shall find but two , Tradition , and Scripture . And the Catholique onely to relye upon Tradition , and all the rest upon Scripture . And also shall he see , that relying upon Scripture cannot draw to an unity , those who relye upon it ; and that more then one cannot relye upon Tradition , which when I have considered , I have no further to seeke , for if I will be a Christian , I must belong to one side . By falling on the one side , I see my fortune in thousands who have gone before me , to wit , that I shall be to seek all my life time , as I see they are , and how greatly they magnifie very weak peices . On the other side , I see every man who followeth it , as far as he follow it , is at quiet ; and therefore cannot chuse , but think there to be the stone to rest my head upon , against which Jacob his Ladder is reared unto Heaven .

The Author hath through his whole discourse , inserted divers things , which seem particularly to the justification of himselfe , in the way of his search . The which , as I think , on one side I should be too blame to exaimine ( for who am I , to judge the Servant of another man ) so , because I cannot think , but that they were inserted for love of truth , and to heare what might be said against them ( craving pardon , if on presumption of that , it is his will , I anyway offend ) I shall touch the matter , wholly abstracting from the personall disposition of any man . And to begin a far of , it is confessed amongst Catholiques , that all sinne must be wilfull , and so as far as any mans doubt in Religion is not by will , but by force and necessity , so far it is not culpable , but may be laudable before God and man . As was without doubt the anxious search of Saint Augustine for the truth , which he relateth in his confessions , for who is assured of being out of the truth , must have time to seek it , and so long this doubt is rationall , and laudable . That which must justifie this search , is in common , that which justifieth all actions , that a man be sure in the aime he aimeth at , and in the meanes he taketh , not to be governed by any passion , interest , or wilfulnesse , but that he sincerely aimeth , and carefully pursueth in the search of the truth it selfe , for the love of it ; and of those goods which depend of the knowledge of it . This is a thing , in which a rationall man can have no other judge then himselfe ; for no man knoweth what is within a man , but the Spirit , or conscience of man . But he himselfe must be a rigorous Judge unto himselfe , for it is very hard to know the truth : when I say rigorous , I mean exact , and fearfull mis-deeming : As holy Job was , who said , He was fearfull of all his actions . Holy David , but amongst all , Saint Augustine doth more sweetly complaine of the misery of man , not knowing his own dispositions , and yet he was then forty yeares of age , when passions and heates of youth which make this discussion harder , are generally settled . Besides this , he must have this care , that he seek what the nature of the subject can yeeld , and not as those Physitians , who when they have promised no lesse then immortality , can at last onely reach to some conservation of health , or youth , in some small degree . So I could wish the Author , to well assure himselfe first , that there is possible , an Infallibility , before he be too earnest , to be contented with nothing lesse . For what if humane nature should not be capable of so great a good , would he therefore think fitting to live without any Religion , because he could not get such a one as himselfe desired , though with more then a mans wish . Were it not rationall to see , whether amongst Religions , some one hath not such notable advantages over the rest , as in reason it might seeme , humane nature might be contented withall Let him cast his accompts with the dearest things he hath , his own , or freinds lives , his estate , his hope of posterity , and see upon what termes of advantage he is ready to venture all these , and then return to Religion , and see whether , if he doe not venture his soule upon the like , it be truly reason , or some other not confessed motive , which withdraweth him . For my own part , as I doubt not of an Infallibity , so I doubt not , but setting that aside , there be those excellencies found on the Catholique party , which may force a man to preferre it , and venture all he hath upon it , before all other Religions , and Sects in the world : Why then may not one , who after long searching findeth no Infallibility , rest himselfe on the like , supposing mans nature affordeth no better ?

Another thing may make a mans search faulty , and is carefully to be looked unto , I meane , that it is easie for a man to mistake himselfe , by too much confidence in himselfe or others . He that will make a judgement in an Art he is not Master in , if he be deceived , is to impute it unto himselfe . The Phrase commandeth us to beleeve every man in his Art ; he who knoweth and understandeth himselfe , beleeveth not . Therefore when we see Masters in an Art , we are not skilled in , oppose us , we may beleeve we are in the wrong : which will bred this resolution in the Author of the discourse , that if himselfe be not skilled all those wayes in which he pursueth his search , he must find himselfe obliged to seek Masters , who be both well skilled , and ( the matter being subject to faction ) also very honest and upright men , or else he doth not quit himselfe before God and man .

I cannot part without one note more , which is , that it is not all one to incurre damnation for infidelity , and to be in state of Salvation . For the man to whom infidelity is not imputed , may be in state of damnation , for other faults , as those were who having known God by his works , did not glorifie him as they ought : nay , they may be damned through want of Faith , and yet not be condemned for incredulity . As for example sake , if when they have sinned , they know not what meanes to take to have them forgiven , though they be without fault in not beleeving , neverthelesse dying without remission of sinne , they are not in state to come to life everlasting . As the man , who should venture into a Wood without a guide , although he did his best to have a guide , nothing lesse might fall out of his way , as well as he , who neglected the taking of one ; so if God sent his Sonne to shew us the way of Salvation , and that be but one ; as well is he like not to be saved , who never heard of such a way , as he that heard of it , and neglected it ; for neither of the two goeth that way ; and who goes not on the way , is not like to come to the end . I know God is good and mercifull ; but I know his workes , as far as we know , are dispensed by the order of second causes ; and where we see no second causes , we cannot presume of the effects . God is good and mercifull I know , and feedeth the Birds of the aire , and much more men ; yet we see in dearths and hard winters , both men and Birds to perish , doe they what they could to get victuals . And how am I assured he will send Angels to illuminate such men as doe their endeavours , that their soules may not perish ? But far more doe I doubt , whether ever man , who had not the way of Christ , or even of those , who walked in it , did ever doe his best ( except some few , and very few , perhaps not two of Christ his greatest favourites ) and was not so culpable , that his perdition would not have been imputed unto himselfe . God of his mercy put us in the score of those , of whom he saith , He will take pitty upon whom he pleaseth , and compassion of them he pleaseth .

FINIS .

THE LORD OF FAVLKLANDS REPLY SIR ,

I Receive your intention to instruct me for a great Obligation , but I should have esteemed it a greater ; if you would have pleased to let me know to whom I owe the Favour , and should pay my thanks ; and if you had not translated the command of secresie from proper to metaphoricall Almes .

I am also to thank you ( for in this Age we are beholding to them who doe what is fit ) for not mixing Gall with your Inke ; since I have ever thought that there should bee as little bitterness in a Treatise of Controversie , as in a Love-letter , and that the contrary way was both void of Christian charitie , and humane wisedome , as serving onely 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , to fright away the game , Synesius . and make their Adversarie unwilling to receive Instruction from him , from whom they have received Injuries ; and making themselves unabler to discover Truth ( which Saint Austine sayes is hard for him to find who is calme , but impossible for him that is angry : ) raising besides a great suspition of ignorance in him that useth it ; since it is a very true Rule which we have received from Hierocles , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Confidence of knowledge conduceth much to meeknesse : Now in this I intend to take you for my pattern , and the same Author for my Counsellour ; 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and being able to overthrow what is false ( for so must I thinke I can , and such I must take your reasons to be , as long as they perswade me not ) 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , resisting Errors without Anger , and pursuing Truth with mildnesse .

Now this I must professe for my selfe , that since I considered any thing in Religion , and knew that there were severall of them in the world , I never avoided to hear ( at least ) any man that was willing to perswade me by reason , that any of them was the true , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Nay rather I have laid wait to meet with such of all sorts , as were most likely to say most on their side ( as S. Chrysostome sayes of Abraham , that he did 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 lay nets for Guests ) and though almost all that undertake the search of so important a Truth , doe it better , provided , with sharpness of wit , and soliditie of judgement , yet I verily beleeve that few doe with that indifference and equalitie Which is fit for a Judge , and with which I both began and continue it .

Yet ( least there might some un-mark't prejudice lye lurking in me , and least I might harbour some secret inclination to those Tenets which I had first been taught ) I have ever lean'd , and set my Byas to the other side , and have both more discoursed of matters of Religion with those of the Church of Rome then with their Adversaries , and read more of their writings ; though none either so often or so carefully , as this which I am now answering , both because it was intended for my Instruction and confutation ; as also because the beauty of the stile and language , in which you have apparrelled your conceptions ( although — Non haec Ovid. Metamorph . Auxilio tibi sunt Decor est quaesitus ab istis , yet ) showes the Author a considerable Person , and I may say of the splendour and outside of what you have said ( for my opinion ( that it wants soliditie , and that the Logick of it is inferiour to the Rhetorick ) is seen by my writing against it ) what Tacitus sayes of Vitellius his Annie , Phalerae torquesque splendebant , & non Vitellio principe dignus exercitus ; for as he would have had that glorious Army been imployed in the defence of a better and braver Prince , Xenophon Hist. 3. so I wish your eloquence had guilded the better cause ; 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . And ( having learn't moreover from the Pagan Divinitie of Hierocles ( which in this is conformable to that of most Christians ) that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that all our search is but the stretching forth of our hands , and that our finding proceeds from Gods delivering the Truth unto us , and that prayer is the best meanes to joyn the latter to the former : ) I have not only with my utmost endeavours done my part ; but also besought God with my most earnest fervency to doe his ; and so 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , joyning Prayer to search , like form to Matter ; I doubt not but God who hath given me a will , to seek his Will , also 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ; Euseb. Orat. de Laud. Const. and if I have not the truth already , I shall be taught the truth by him , and by you as his Instrument , or shall be excused , if I find it not ; assuring you that I was never more ready to part with my clothes when they were torn , then with my opinions when they were confuted , and appeared to me to be so .

To begin then with your Treatise , you can say nothing for Tradition , which I will not willingly allow , Scripture it self being a Traditum , and by that way comming to our knowledge , ( for I am confident that those who would know it by the Spirit , run themselves into the same Circle between Scripture and Spirit , out of which some of your side have but unsuccessefully laboured to get out between Scripture and Church ) but that this way which you propound should be convenient to know what was Tradition at first , I can by no means agree . Which to consider the better , I will comprehend all the strength of what you have said in a little room , and shut up your Oration into the compasse of some 3. Sillogismes ; thus you argue ,

What company soever of Christians alone pretend to teach nothing but what they have received from their Fathers , as received from theirs , as so come down from the Apostles , that company alone must hold the truth .

But that company of Christians which are in communion with the Church of Rome only pretend this ,

Therefore they alone hold the truth , and the Church .

The Major you prove thus :

If such a company of Christians could teach falshoods , then ( since it is granted that what was at first delivered was true ) some age must either have erred in understanding their Ancestors , or have joyned to deceive their posterity .

But neither of these are beleevable ,

Therefore neither is it beleevable , that such a company of Christians should teach falshoods .

The Minor you prove thus ; ( I mean that they alone pretend it , for that they , I mean all they , pretend it , you take for granted . )

If it be incompatible with the Church of Romes doing it , that any else should doe it , then she does it alone .

But it is incompatible , ( which is denied , and not yet proved . )

Therefore she doth it alone .

The severall parts of this Argument , I mean first to Answer ; and secondly , Whatsoever lyes scatter'd in your discourse any thing to this purpose , or any other unanswer'd in the first part : and thirdly , I will reply to those Answers which you have been pleased to make , to part of that Nothing which I writ , wishing that this last work might have bin longer , I mean that by answering it all , and in order , you had given me occasion to have dwelt more upon my Reply .

Now if I doe not shew that all of the Church of Rome do not , nor cannot pretend this , that for two to pretend it is not incompatible ( as having been so heretofore ) that those who alone pretend this may pretend it falsely , that some men , and in time all may mistake their Ancestors , and have a mind in some cases to deceive their posterity , and that it is not necessary for a whole age at once to joyn in doing it , though it be done ( if I say ) I shew not this , then let me not bee beleeved , and if you can shew me that I have not shewed it , I will promise to beleeve you .

First , That the Church of Rome doth not , nor cannot pretend , that all their doctrine was received by them from their fathers as come down from the Apostles , it appeares , because when questions have risen about such things , whereof there was before no speech , yet if a Councell have determined them , they are received with the same assent , as if they had come from the Apostles ; and they professe now the same readinesse to receive alwayes any such definition , though about a question now unknown ; and it is likely , they have done what they professe they are ready to doe ; at least , they shew , that yours is not the ground upon which they build . And I pray aske your selfe , whether those that teach the common people ( who are the greatest part of your Church ) use to be askt about it by them , or use to tell them , that this they received from their Fathers , as descended from the Apostles , by a continuall verball Tradition . For suppose they told them , that [ this Tradition tels us ] yet they are not able to distinguish between such as is but Ecclesiasticall , and Apostolicall , or whether this be known to them onely by deductions , or from ancient bookes , and no such uncontinued line of teaching , and not rather perswade them in generall to beleeve it , what by Arguments drawne from Scripture , what from reason , what from Fathers , Councels , or Decretals ? I am not certaine what is their course , but I am sure , the most ordinary amongst the Ancients ( whom they pretend to follow ) was , that when they had told the people , that such a proposition was true , they added [ neither is it I that say so , but the Apostle , the Prophet , or the Evangelist ] and mentioned the place , where they thought such a doctrine was included , seldome speak of any verball Tradition ( lesse of such a one , upon which you wholly rely ) except urg'd to it , when that was impudently claim'd by some Heretique ; and when they did ( as the Asian Bishops about Easter , Justin Martir about the age of Christ , Saint Austine about communicating Infants , Papius and Iraeneus about the doctrine of the Chiliasts ) then ( as Lucian tels us , that when that Jugler Alexander sent to a City a Verse to be set upon their doores to keepe away the Plague , those houses which used the remedy , were more visited then those that did not so ) those doctrines which the Fathers did grace by writing verball Tradition in their foreheads , were not lesse ( perhaps more ) apt to be after disbeleeved , then the other which were not in that kind taught .

Now if the Ignorant be not expresly instructed , that upon this ground they are to think that true , which they are bid to beleeve ( especially where their religion is easily enough received , onely for being that of their Country ) you must allow , that the greatest part of your Church cannot , nor does not pretend , to have received all they beleeve under that Notion ; and to know they did , you must have spoke with them all , or have heard them all instructed ; for what is in some places so taught , may be delivered upon other grounds in the very next Parishes .

From the Ignorant let'us come to the learned , and see whether they doe not both beleeve more , and require more to be beleeved , then hath had any such pedigree as you imagine . First , then the great , eloquent , and judicious Cardinall Perron , ( whom I preferre so much before all those of his side that have been Authors , that [ if a Pigmy may be allowed to measure Giants ] I should think that the vast learning and industry of Bellarmine , and Baronius , might with most advantage to their party , and no disgrace to them , have been employ'd in seeking quotations for his large and monstrous understanding to have employ'd them ) he , I say , tels us , ( and not from himselfe , but from Saint Austine ) that the Trinity , Pennance , Free-will , and the Church , were never exactly disputed of , before the Arrians , the Novatians , the Pelagians , and the Donatists . Now ( since without doubt the former ages disputed as well as they could , and so could not instruct their Proselites , better then they confuted their Adversaries ) I think it evident , that more hath since been concluded , then came from Tradition , and that the way you speak of , appeared not sufficient , either to Cardinall Perron , or Saint Austin . But because Bellarmine ( being written in a more generall language ) is more generally ( though , I thinke unjustly ) esteemed then Perron , I will aske you a question of him , when he excuseth Pope John the 22th . for denying , that Saints enjoy the beatificall vision before the day of judgement ( in which he was lead by a Troop of Fathers ) because the Church had not then defined the contrary ; did Bellarmine beleeve , that then Christians had received from their Fathers , as from the Apostles , a direct contrary Tradition to his doctrine ? If he did , how could he think the Pope , either possibly to be ignorant of it , or excuseable , it he stood against it ? If not , then he thought our Age beholding to our Fathers , for finding out some truths , which had no such line to come down by ; nay , which the Apostles either taught not , or but obscurely , and so as needs Arguments to deduce it out of their writings ; at least , not so generally , but that a Pope , and many more chiefe Doctors of the Church , knew not they had done so , ( although you often put us in minde , that Tertullian tels us , how in that Church which he governed , the Apostles poured out all their doctrines with their blood ) and in his time , Fathers taught not their children so : And this objection lyes against you , as often as any of your side confesse any of the Ancients ( accompted Orthodox ) to have delivered any doctrine , contrary to that of the now Church of Rome , which many of them often confesse , and your selfe doe not deny : for that they could not have done , if an uninterrupted verball Tradition had been then the onely rule of true doctrine , and they had known it to be so ( for then they had a way of information , which you must confess easie , since they might soon have known , whether generally , Christians had been taught the contrary , under such a Notion , and in such a degree , as you speak of ) or the Church of Rome had not since , either deviated from the tradition of one part , or introduced on the other .

But because you knew , that the claime of Tradition could not serve your Churches turne , if any other different from yours made the same ; you therefore affirme , that none doth , and prove it , because two cannot doe it ; and in this you must give me leave to say , that you imitate the Philosopher , who made Arguments against Motion , though one walked before him ; for though we see that the Greek Church does it as much as the Romane , ( though apt to be deceived in the doing it , by the same wayes ) yet you hope to perswade us beyond our eyes , by a reason , which indeed ends in an assertion : for , I pray , why may not two companies of Christians , both pretend to such a Tradition , ( though opposing each other ) as well as the Asian Churches and the Roman did long together , about the celebration of Easter ? But not onely that it may be so , but that it is so , you may find by Hieremy , Nilus , and Barlaam ( who professe to stand to the Scriptures , the ancient Tradition of their Fathers , and the seven first generall Councels , and they can be disprov'd no way , but by the same you may be so too ) over and above the confessions of your own men .

But suppose you did pretend , and alone pretend to such a Tradition , yet you might falsely doe it : for I desire you to remember , that the Apostles delivered , as well Writings as verball Doctrine ; and whatsoever the first ages thought to be contained there , that they might as well deliver to their posterity , as taught them by the Apostles , as what they received by word of mouth ; since we use to say , I learnt this of such a man , when we mean from his book , and though you strive to joyne verball Tradition in commission with Scripture , yet sure none of you can desire to thrust Scripture out quite from being at least a part of the Rule . Now that they might erre in interpreting their writings ( and an error in the cheifest then , might easily cause a generall one since ) I think you will not deny , especially since to say , that they left by Tradition every place of Scripture interpreted , would be an evidently false assertion : for how could the Fathers then have written upon it such differently-expounding Comments .

Secondly , How shall it appeare , that there were not once two contrary Traditions claimed by two Parts ( as the Asian Church , and the Roman , whereof , both it seemes claim'd a direct verball Tradition , because one pretended to have received theirs from Saint John , and the other , from Saint Peter , whereof there is no word in their workes ) and that the erring Part did not prevaile ? We know , out of the fifth of Eusebius History , that the fore-runners laid claime to Tradition , and nam'd the very Pope , that had chang'd the doctrine at Rome ; which claime ( how impudently soever ) yet shewes , that men might joyne to deceive their Posterity , as pretending to a Tradition , when there was no such ; for , if you say those were but few , I answer , both that you are not certaine of their number , and since so many may joyn , I pray , what number is it cannot ?

Thirdly , Since you must and doe confesse , that some Doctrines , which were not once generally witnessed to have been delivered by the Apostles , are now Doctrines of Faith ( as the Epistle to the Hebrewes was rejected by the Roman Church in Saint Hierom's time , though to her yee use to say , that Iraeneus would have every Church agree , and though Saint Hierom , whom you would prove to have thought Damasus infallible , when it is known , that he thought Libertius a Heretick , received it for all that ) because you say , that these doctrines had so much Tradition as was exceptione major , beyond exception , ( though the Church of Rome thought not so then ; ) doth not this rest upon the Logick of those Ages , to conclude what Testimony is so ? which might easily deceive them , especially since you confesse also , that particular Traditions may be false ( as you instance in the Chiliasts ) and yet the same reason , which perswaded some to receive them , may perswade more and more in severall times ( and so no age need to joyne , as you suppose ) and so a false Tradition may grow a generall one ; as it seemes that of the Chiliasts ( if it be one ) did , so generall , that Justin Martyr sayes , in his time all Orthodox Christians held it .

Besides , in those things which were beleeved very convenient , and which yet it was fear'd , that unlesse men thought them necessary , they would be backward to practise , in respect of the contrariety of them to their dispositions , ( as confession ) how easie was it for them to be after taught , under paine of more danger , then at first they were delivered , with ? as Physitians often tell their Patients , unlesse they take such a Potion , from which they are very averse , they must unavoidably die , though the not taking of it ( even in their own opinions ) would but make them lesse likely to recover . Some of great authority ( moved by a good meaning ) might thus deceive others ; these , thus deceived , might deceive others ; till , being generally spread , other good men , being loath to oppose them for the same reason , for which others desir'd to spread them , ( as we saw Erasmus , who beleeved your confession , not to have been instituted by the Apostles , yet would not reprehend them that said so , thinking it an error , that would increase Piety ) they be at last taken to have been commanded by the Apostles , without contradiction .

Indeed all the waies , by which I shewd in that paper , which you vouchsafed to answer ( which I desire not to repeat , to avoid both your being wearied , and my own , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , ) that errors might come to be generall ; all those are waies , by which the same errors might come to be thought to have proceeded from Tradition . Saint Austin , and Tertullian , agreeing in the sence of the sentence , which we read in the latter , * * " De Corouâ . Si legem nusquam reperio , sequitur ut Traditio consuetudini morem hunc dederit , habiturum quandoque apostoli authoritatem ex interpretatione rationis ; and it is the more strange , that Tertullian should allow any custome the authority of comming from the Apostles , since in the same place , he gives any man leave to beginne a custome , so it be good ( which depends upon his reason , as the reception of it does upon theirs that follow him ) and so make it a custome , in these words . Annon putas licere omni fideli concipere , & constituere , duntaxat , quod Deo congruat , quod disciplinae conducat , quod saluti proficiat , dicente Domino cur non & vobis ipsis quod justum est judicatis ? By which it seemes , he was willing , more should be beleev'd then was first taught , and when that way had brought in any thing ( for there is the same reason of opinion , as of actions ) and made it common , then the former Rule serves to rivet it in , under the false Notion of comming from the Apostles , or having at least equall authority , neither can you except against this , as said by him when he was a Montanist , since your side useth to brag of this , and the like places , as making for them .

To explaine my meaning the fuller , give me leave to consider one question , which shall be , the immaculate conception of the Blessed Virgin : In the first ages it is a thing granted , that many Fathers beleeved her , not onely not free from Originall sinne , but not even from Actuall ; Wadd . Pag. 271 after this second question came to be more considered , and this first to be defin'd ; but yet those of the Amrmative opinion , cannot but grant to those of the Negative , that many Fathers sided with them ( or else they were impudent Quoters , who claim three hundred ) nay , Wadding p. 124. even in Saint Thomas his time , they confesse , that the Negative opinion was the more common doctrine ; and yet see I pray , how things are altered ? We have now a History of some Treaties , of two Kings of Spaine with two Popes , by two Embassadours to perswade them to define the Affirmative . The History is written by one Wadding an Irish-man , his Secretary , there I find , that the Bishop of Carthage , ( having Order from the Embassadour his Master to desire to presse , nay almost to tear a Definition from his Holinesse about it ) tells him ( and not falsely ) that those who hold the Negative are , Inter Catholicos soli & pauci unius instituti viri , Page 97. & unus & alter ab ill is edocti , but a few of one onely Order , and one or two of their Disciples . His Master bids him urge for the contrary : The opinion and subscription of so many Prelates Orders , Page 90. and Universities , the universall acclamation of the People , the weighty necessity of cutting off scandals ; Page 400. nay , saith he , many Universities suffer none to take Degrees without making a Vow for the Defence of the Immaculate conception ; and for the Oppugners , Page 57. Constat eos sentire aliter , quàm universa docet Ecclesia , they differ from the Doctrine of the Universall Church : If then an opinion for which nothing is to be said out of Antiquitie , and much against it , which was even lately , the lesse common opinion , could grow to be held by so great a multitude in so high a degree , in so short a time , that the much greater part of the Church should now presse to have it defin'd , and that so earnestly , that to remove the opposing Fathers out of the way , they make a confession very advantagious to us Hereticks , that many things have been defin'd by their Church against many Fathers , Page 127. you may easily see that Opinions may grow very generall , nay grow to claim Tradition in one Age that were unknown in another ; for that they claim and prove only because of the the general reception in all Apostolicall Churches , not of any such uninterrupted testimony of Fathers to their Children , that so it hath been taught in all Ages .

You may see then that all your Church goes not upon your grounds , since if they did so , many of it that stand for the Affirmative must pretend to them , and if they doe , then sure the Pope must have confessed them to be witnesses beyond exception , and would accordingly have defin'd , if they doe not , then this certain way of yours , cannot keep false opinions out of a Church , which makes not that their Rule .

You may also see that opinions first unknown , after but particular , may come not onely to be generall , and to have Tradition claim'd for them , but even to be defin'd ; since if a Generall Councell should now meet about this point , it is plain ( without Gods immediate working to the contrary , of nay , I am confident , that as it is observed of the Romans that they were twice as long in first conquering Italy , as ( after ) all the world ; and as my Lord Bacon tels us of one , who was wont to say , That he had first with much paines gotten a little estate , and after with little a great one ; so it is a much more short , and easie work to bring this to a Definition , then it was before to bring it thus far on the way towards one .

Which if it were brought ( it being already almost defined , and ready to topple into a Doctrine necessary to salvation , the contrary being forbidden to be either printed or publikely taught ) then ( if you forsake not your Religion ) you must forsake the Principle , and joyn with Turnball , who tells us , That the Churches supreme definition of matters of Faith is the infallible word of God , and together with the ancient Revelation made to the Prophets and Apostles makes up one Object , which is to be held by the Catholike Faith : By which it is plain , he thinks more may be reveal'd ( and then must be held ) then was to the Apostles and ( by consequence ) could be delivered by them , which is contrary to what you now say .

And indeed the current of Writers of your own side either knew not this opinion and Argument of yours , or consideringly balk it ; else they might save themselves and their Readers the labour of writing , and reading such infinite Quotations : for though they speak often of Tradition , yet they thinke themselves bound to prove it better then by the pretence of your present Church ; they pretend to receive it from the Ancient Writers , ( not , say they , that Verball Tradition hath in all Ages been taught to all men , to teach it their children , and that it never slept , ) and you are the first whom I have met with , who build upon this ; Indeed they know the Greeks have as much claim to such a one ( in truth to any ) as they , and if they should say with you , that it is incompatible for two to have it , the Greeks may as well argue upon those grounds , that the Romans claim it not , because they doe , as the Romans can , that the Greeks lay no claim to it , because their Church does . And indeed direct experience shewes that this is not , nor hath alwayes been the ground of Christians , that it is not ( even amongst you ) we see by those multitudes who cry out to have a Doctrine defined ; which is so far from having any Tradition , ( much lesse your kind of one for it , ) that they labour with little successe to shew that there is none against them , and make it plainly appear , that upon your grounds they build not , but prove out of Metaphoricall places of Scripture , some at most but probable reasons , and the Revelations of S. Bridget , which are contradicted by those of Saint Katharine , Wadding p. 334. ( so ill do your Saints agree in heaven , that me thinks , we may bee forgiven , if we have some differences upon earth : ) That this hath not been alwaies the way , we see by the exam-of Origen , who having been esteemed by all Christians , as almost a Prophet , no man in his time discovering that he taught contrary to what their Fathers had taught them , Vincent Lir. was yet condemned many yeers after , his decease , and his followers counted Hereticks , by the name of Originistae , which had been impossible , if the following Ages had thought Tradition the onely fit Rule to judge by , and accompted nothing Tradition , but what they received from their Fathers in expresse termes : But if the opinions of Doctors , counted the Gnomons and Canons of Truth ( for to that purpose speakes Nazianzene of Athanasius , Wadd . Pag. 282 and Saint Austine of Nazianzene , and Pope Pius the fifth of Saint Thomas , calling his doctrine , the certainest rule of Christian religion , a title deny'd to Scripture ) the definitions of Councels counted the highest Tribunals upon earth , assisted by the power of Emperours , which might doe much , when almost all were under one ( as may be seen by the multitude which followed Constantine , to Christianity , and Julian from it , and by Constantius ( as is complain'd ) 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 in the twinckling of an eye , transforming an Orthodox world into an Arrian ) if these waies , I say , might make a Tenet generall , though no Tradition had come down at all concerning it ; and after it please to claim by a Tenure , by which it came not in at first , encouraged by some Rule of some Fathers to that purpose ( as some Frenchmen say of Cardinall Richelieu , that since he had that title , he claimes to have come from better Ancestours then he aimed at , being an ordinary Person ; and Harry the seventh , though he came to the Crown by his Wives right , yet would hold it by his own ) and none after oppose that claime , some not doing it , because they thinke the opinion true , and then care not though it be beleev'd upon false inducements , some as being ignorant that ever it was lesse generall ( which before the late and happy resurrection of learning , the best read Persons of their time might often be ) how deceiving a way is yours , to discover what all ages have thought , by what now a part of the present teacheth , upon what pretence soever , which when you have considered , and not onelie that , what I have said may be , but by severall examples ( whereof I will touch some ) that so it is , and hath been , then I hope you will be so farre from expecting that I should be moved by your Arguments , that your selfe will wonder that ever you were .

First then , that the Chiliasts are Hereticks , or your Church not infallible , which counts them so , is most certaine , and most plaine , and if you be in the right , and that she teacheth nothing , but what she hath received uninterruptedly downe from the Apostles , then they must alwaies have been esteemed so by Christians ; whereas their doctrine is so farre from having any Tradition against it , that if anie opinion , whether controverted , or uncontroverted ( except that Scripture which never was doubted ) may without blushing pretend to have that for it , it must be this of theirs . My Reasons are these :

The Fathers of the purest Ages ( who were the Apostles Disciples but once remov'd ) did teach this , [ as receiv'd from them , who professed to have receiv'd it from the Apostles , and who seem'd to them witnesses beyond exception , that they had done so , they being better Judges what credit they deserv'd , then after commers could possibly be .

All other opinions , witnessed by any other Ancients to have Tradition , may have been by them mistaken to have been , so , out of Saint Austin's and Tertullian's rules : whereas for this , and for this alone , are delivered the very words , which Christ us'd when he taught it .

Of the most glorious and least infirme building , which ever in my opinion was erected to the honour of the Church of Rome , Cardinall Perron was the Architect ( I mean his book against King James ) and that relies upon these two pillars , that whatsoever all the Fathers ( he meanes , sure , that are extant ) witnesse to be Tradition , and the doctrine of the Church , that must be receiv'd for the doctrine of those ages , and so rested upon : If these rules be not concluding , then the whole book being built upon them , necessarily becomes as unconsiderable for what he intended it , as Bevis or Tom Thumb : If they be , then this doctrine , which is now hereticall in your Churches beleife was the opinion of the Ancient Church . For if being taught by the Fathers of anie Age , none contradicting it , be sufficient , this all for above two Ages ( and those the first ) teach , not anie Father opposing it before Dionysius Alexandrinus ( 250 , yeares after Christ at least ) that we know , or Saint Hierome , or Saint Austine knew and quoted ; wherein I note , besides , that both these Fathers , either thought that no signe of the opinion of the Church , or cared not though it were .

And if Fathers speaking as witnesses will serve , let Pappias and Irenaeus be heard , and believ'd , who tels us it came to them from Christ by Verball Tradition , and Justine Martir , who witnesseth that in his time all Orthodoxe Christians held it , and joynes the opposers with them who denied the Resurrection , and esteemes them among the Christians like the Sadduces among the Jewes : which proves that you have the same reason expallescere audito Ecclesiae nomine , to grow pale at the mention of the Ancient Church , Camp . ( the nearest to the Apostles ) as we have to start at that of two hundred years agoe , and to be asham'd of your Dionysius Alexandrinus , as wee of Luther : Thus that great Atlas of your Church hath helpt us to pull it down the same waies , by which he intended to support it , and though he have best of any undergone the burden of proving that to be infallible , which is false , yet he must have confest , that either these are not proofes , or they prove against himself . And this advantage we have , that unlesse you prove your own infallibility ( which you will never be able to do ) in what point soever you confute us , that falls like a Pinacle without carrying all after it ; whereas if we disprove any one of your Religion , we disprove consequently that infallibility , which is the foundation of it all : so that ( like them who vse poison'd weapons ) wheresoever we wound , we kill , but we are like those creatures , which must be killed all over , or else their other parts will remaine alive .

Neither must you think that you have answer'd the Chiliasts by tying them to the Carpocratians and the Gnosticks , ( which is but like Mezentius his joyning Mortua corpora vivis , dead bodies to the living ) since the opinions of the two latter , assoon as they were taught , made the teachers accounted Hereticks and were oppos'd by allmost all , whereas that of the first , found in above two ages , no resistance by any one known and esteemed Person , and the teachers of it were not onely parts , but principall ones of the Catholique Church , and such as ever have been , and are reputed Saints ; though , by I know not what subtlety you dispence with your selves for departing from what doctrine was received from them as come down from the Apostles , and yet threaten us with damnation if we will not believe more improbable Tenets to be Tradition upon lesse Certificate . For as Aristotle saith 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Ethicks . Wine measures to buy with are great , and to sell by are small ; so when you are to put a doctrine to us , how small a measure of Tradition would you have us take ? one place of one Father , speaking but as a Doctor , seemes enough : but when you are to receive any from us , how large and mighty a measure will yet give you no satisfaction ? Neither can I find out what it is by which you conclude , that their Tradition was gathered the Hereticall way from private discourse with the Apostles : Irenaeus indeed tells us , that Presbyteri meminerunt , one of which Pappias was , but not a word that it was deliver'd in secret , or the auditors but few , nor that others had not heard other disciples teaching the same doctrine ; and me thinkes that if you had evinced what you desire ( as you seem to me not to do , unlesse to affirm be to prove ) it would make more against you ; sure if from so small a ground as the word of one onely disciple , that he in private discourse was taught this by the Apostles , a false doctrine could so generally be received by all the first Doctors of the Christian Church , and that so long after Dionysius Alexandrinus had used his great Authority to destroy it : Saint Hierome was yet halfe afraid to write against it , as seeing how many Catholiques he should enrage against himselfe by it , as he testifies in his Proem to the eighteenth Book of his Comment upon Isaiah ; what suspitions must this raise in the mindes of those of your own party , least what they esteemed Tradition , had at first no greater a beginning , and no firmer foundation , but onely better fortune ; for why might not the same disciple have cozn'd them from whom their beliefe is descended in twenty other things , as well as in this ? and why not twenty others as well as he ? especially since you confesse some of your doctrine not to have had Vniversall Tradition , but onely Tradition enough ; which if those Fathers did not think they had had , for this , they would never have receiv'd it , but have excepted against the Hereticall way of their delivery , if they had known that to be a private one , and a private one to be such , and if they were so deceived in this way , might not they , and more have been so too in other points , and in time all ?

If you say ( as it hath been said to me by one whose judgment I value , as much as any one of your Party ) that if this opinion had indeed had Tradition , it could never have been so totally extinguish'd . I answer , that I affirm not , that it had , but onely that if the rules of your part be good and valid , then it had ; I am sure it hath better colour to plead upon , then any of those other doctrines , which you impose upon us : Besides although it had , yet when Doctors of great authority with the people , had won upon many , first not to think it Tradition , and then not true , and lastly their courage encreasing with their multitude , ( for Saint Hierome durst not call it ) had made it accounted an Heresie , it is not strange that none should rise to oppose it ; for by that time burning was come in fashion , which was a ready way to answer all objections , and end all controversies , especiall Piety being grown more cold , and so men lesse apt to suffer for opinions , and the times more ignorant , and so men lesse able to examine what had been beleeved before them . But you who affirm , that your Church receives nothing , but what hath come to her by Verball Tradition down from the Apostles , must not onely destroy the Arguments , which prove this to have had Tradition , ( which you , or any else will be never able to do ) but must affirm , that the contrary hath such , which yet their most ancient opposers never pretended too , but scoft at the opinion as rediculous and savouring of Judaisme , which as wise men , and as good Christians , as they , before them beleeved to be Orthodox .

Let us next consider that controversie which more afflicted the Church , and for a longer time then any other , that between the Arrians and their Adversaries , and let us see , whether even against those there were any such . Tradition as you speak of . First then I pray mark what Cardinal Perron confesseth , Lib. Con. R. Jac. Pag. 633. that an Arrian will be desirous to have his cause tried by those Authors we now have , which lived before the Question arose ; for there , saith he , will be found the Son is the instrument of his Father , The Father commanded the Son , when things were to be made , the Father and the Son are aliud & aliud , which who should at this day say , now the language of the Church is better examin'd , would be accompted an Arrian . Now though there be no reason for you to disbelieve so learned a Prelate in a matter of Fact ( especially since 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) yet if you please to reconsider those Authors seriously , if you have not mark't it before ( as Praejudication blinds extreamly ) you will then confesse it ; Sure then if Fathers in the first ages taught their Children , that so they had receiv'd from theirs , as the doctrine of the Apostles , how could the chiefe Pillars of Christianity have been ignorant of it ? or if they knew it , how would they ever have written so directly against their knowledge . For that answer which Saint Hierome gives ( as Saint Austine to the Pelagians ) that before Arrius arose , the Ecclesiasticall Writers spoke minùs cautè , with lesse circumspection , though it brings some salve to the present objection , yet it is a weapon against Tradition in generall , for if through want of care the best and wisest men vs'd to contradict Tradition , ( as you must grant they did ) then sure much more likely , when they taught by word of mouth , when lesse care is alwaies us'd , then in Bookes , and how then can any age be sure , that by this reason ( of minùs cautè loquuti sunt ) their Ancestors have not mistaken their Fathers , and mislead their Posterity ? Look but into Athanasius , and see but what he answers to what is brought against him out of Dionysius Alexandrinus , truly in my opinion when he strives to make it Catholique Doctrine , he doth it with no lesse pulling , and halling , then Sancta Clara useth to agree the articles of the English Church with the Tenets of the Roman . Consider what eighty Bishops , and those Orthodoxe , decreed against Paulus Samosatenus , and if you make it consent with Athanasius his Creed , I shall believe that you have discouer'd a way how to reconcile both Parts of a Contradiction : This I say , not as intending by it to prove the Arrian opinion to be true , but that the contrary Party insisted not upon your grounds , but drew their beliefe out of Scripture , for if there had been such a common and constant Verball Tradition , the chiefe Christians would not through want of Caution have contradicted it , neither could Constantine , if it had been then as known a Part of the Christian Religion , as Christ's Resurrection , have ever so slightly esteemed the Question , when it first arose , neither would Alexander the Bishop of Alexandria have remain'd any while in suspence , as Zozomen saith he did , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ; but this being then a Question newly started and spoken of before but by Accidents , and so peradventure minùs cautè , ( for the same Author saies , that they did 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) they were therefore faine to try it by Scripture , ( esteeming Written Tradition , as sufficient a Rule , as Verball ) as you may see by Constantine's own words at the Councel of Nice , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Theodoret. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . The Bookes of the Evangelists , and the Apostles , and the Oracles of the Ancient Prophets teach us clearly what we are to think of the Divinity . Let us therefore cut of these Divinity-inspir'd discourses , seek the solutions of our Questions , which being the Emperours Proposition , and passing uncontradicted ( which the Bishops would not have suffr'd it to do , if they had known yours to be so much the best , and most certaine way , and this so hazardous as you suppose ) we have reason to believe that they for want of your direction made the Scripture their Rule , and sought out for Truth by the same way , that we damnable Hereticks do , and by that condemn'd the Arrians , as not having such a Tradition as you speak of , ( or if they had , which is very unlikely ) counting it so insufficient , as that they were not to conclude by that . Neither did onely that ancient , ( and not yours ) Councell , but even your own Modern ones shew , that they went upon other grounds , since to have had every Bishop askt what he receiv'd from his Teachers , as receiv'd from theirs , as come downe from the Apostles , would sure have been the shortest way to find Truth , and if they had thought it the best too , it would have sav'd the Friers at Trent many a long dispute out of Scripture , Fathers , and Reason , and the Bishops many a weary session before any thing could be determined , or the Parties brought to agree . Besides there is another reason ( if I may be pardon'd a little insisting upon my digression ) which perswades me that your own Councels define not upon your grounds ( that is ) because suppose a thousand Catholique Bishops meet and define any thing , yet wee know it is not among you believ'd de Fide , without it be confirmed by the Pope ; which shewes plainly enough , that you think not they went by such a Tradition , since of that eighty , so many persons from so many several Parts are witnesses beyond exception , according to your own grounds , and that their Infallibility is not thought to depend upon an Impossibility ; that ( in the matter of Fact what hath been taught under that Notion ) they should either deceive , or be deceiv'd , but upon an infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost , which may be wanting to any company , whereof the Pope is no part , or of whose decrees he is no confirmer . Now to return to my proofes , that against the Arrians there was no such Tradition as you speak of , ( at least , that was the ground upon which they were condemned , ) consider , if you please , that in that Epistle which Eusebius of Caesarea writ to some Arrians after the Councell of Nice , he saith , First , that they assented to the word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Consubstantiall , because also they knew 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , some eloquent and illustrious Bishops and Writers had us'd the Terme : In which I note , that neither claim'd he any such Verbal Tradition for this as you speak of , and of that sort which he claim'd , he names onely 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 some , as knowing too many had writ otherwise to give such a Tradition leave to be generall .

Secondly , He saith , they consented to Anathematize the Contradictors , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , to hinder men from using unwritten words , by which he saith ( and that truely ) that all confusion hath come upon the Church . And if it be askt why the same reason made them not keep out the word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , I answer , That I believe ( or else he is not constant to his own reason ) that he meant onely those words to be unwritten , which were in Scripture , neither themselves , nor equivalently , whereas he took 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 to be in the Scripture in the latter sence : And that by written , he meant in the Scripture onely , appeares by what followes , that no divinely-inspired writing ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) using the Arrians Phrase , it was neither fitting to say nor teach them : Neither can you say that Eusebius being himself a secret Arrian prevaricated herein , for Theodoret makes this Epistle an Argument against than , which he would not have done , if either it had seem'd to him to say any thing contrary to the Catholique doctrine , or not to have oppos'd the contrary by a Catholique way , at least without giving his leader some Caution concerning it .

All which reasons move me to think , that the generality of Christians had not been alwaies taught the contrary to Arrius's doctrine , but some one way , others the other , most neither , as having been onely spoken of upon occasions , and therefore me thinks you had better either say with the Protestants , that the Truth was concluded ( as Constantine said it should be ) by Arguments from Scripture , or ( as some of your own say of other points ) that before the Councell it lay in Archivis Ecclesiae , in the Deskes of the Church , then claime such a Tradition for it , as appeares it can never be defended that it had .

Let us consider but two opinions more :

That Infants are not to receive the Eucharist , is now both the doctrine and practise of the Roman Church , but six hundred yeeres the Church us'd it ; Saint Austine accounted it necessary at least in some sence of the word , if not absolutely ( which last is most likely , because from the necessity of that , which could not be receiv'd but by them who had received Baptisme , he , and Innocentius a Pope , prove the necessity of Baptisme ) and an Apostolicall Tradition . If therefore both these Ages had gone by your Rule , how comes this difference between their opinions , the Sacrament being the same it was , and the Children the same they were ?

This I may consider , and see if the same way that this Doctrine hath been altered , whether any other might not have received change ?

Next , that Saints are invocable , you must say , is Tradition taught from Father to Sonne , as deriv'd from the Apostles , if you will be constant to your own principle , now though I might disprove this , first by the many Fathers that beleeved , the Just not to be admitted to the Beatificall vision before the day of judgement ( for upon this your side now grounds that ) but to be kept in secret receptacles , and by the long time which pass'd before this doctrine was condemn'd : Secondly , by the beginning of it , which was particular Doctors Hipotheticall prayers , with 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and such conditionall clauses : And thirdly , by Nicephorus Calistus his Relation ( who in this is a believable witnesse , because he allowes of your opinion ) that prayers to the Virgin Mary were first brought into the publick Liturgie by one Petrus Gnapheus a Heretick , about five hundred yeares after Christ , Lib. 15. C. 28 yet I will rather chuse to confute this by the confession of Sancta Clara out of Horantius , who to this objection , that sub Evangelio ( which must mean when the Gospel was preacht ) no such precept is extant , Pag. 271. not onely denies it not , but gives this reason for it , least the Pagans should think themselves brought againe to the worshipping of Men instead of Gods : If upon this or any other reason this were not then taught , then have not all your Doctrines such a Pedigree as you suppose , but allow it were , yet , howsoever it followes , that , some , at least , of the learned of your Church have not been taught that they have , or consequently that it is necessary they should have : Though it seemes to me little less then Montanisme to believe that any since ( as it were a Paraclet ) should perfect the doctrine which then was delivered by the Apostles : Neither can you answer that they speake onely of such a Precept , and of being extant , whereas they might teach it lawfull without giving any Precept , and they might have given such a Precept although not extant ; for I should readily reply , that the reason they give why there is none such extant , shewes , that they mean there was none at all , neither Precept , nor allowance , since the Pagans would have been scandaliz'd at its being accounted lawfull to worship men instead of Gods , although it were not commanded , and not a whit the lesse , whether that in after times were extant or not , which they could not foresee .

The onelie answer which I am able to invent in your behalfe , is this , that though some of your particular doctrines have not such a Tradition , yet there being a Tradition that the Churches definitions are infallible , whatsoever she at any time define , is then to be believed upon the strength of such a Tradition , and before did latere in causis as Flowers do in Winter .

Yet to this I may reply by desiring you to enter with me into some few considerations .

First , If this were so , and that so much of Christian Religion depends upon the definitions of the Church , and our Reception of them , upon knowing alwaies which is she , and that such is her authority , can you perswade your selfe , that Christ sending his Apostles and Disciples to Preach the Gospel , and after four of them writing his Gospel , ( which shewes if the Books be true to the title , that they writ all they preacht , at least that was necessarie ; for else they were not Gospels , but Parts of it ) that they should not rather leave out any thing else , how important soever , then not have imploied themselves about teaching us , that the Churches Definitions are a Rule of our Faith , and instructing us in Markes so proper to her , that we might never need to doubt , whether it be she that defines or no , and whether their not having done this , evince not in Reason that this your Doctrine is false ?

Secondly , I pray consider whether if there were any such continu'd Tradition about the Definitions of the Church , whether that must not also have taught , ( or else have been to small purpose ) when it is that the Church hath defin'd : but yet that is a case not fully judged among you , For some hold , that the Church hath defin'd when a Councel hath , although unapproved by the Pope , which is denied by others .

Thirdly , Consider whether ( supposing as was before suppos'd ) it must not also have taught certaine Notes to know the Church by : but yet about those you are not agreed , Tom. 13. Pag. 193. Salmeron putting Miracles among the false Signes of the Church , and Bellarmine and many more among the True ones .

Fourthly , Consider whether the Church have an eternall spring of Doctrines within her , or but a finite number , and onely those which the Apostles preacht : and I believe you will pitch upon the latter . Not then to ask how they come to know them , nor , if you answer by Tradition , to ask you againe how come men then not to know ( before a Definition ) what it is they Preacht ? for if the Bishops ( of which a Councell is compounded ) know it not now , how will they know it when they meet ? I will desire to know why the Church will not at once teach us all the knowes , and not keep us in doubts , which she may resolve ? and did the , Apostles teach their Doctrines to be lockt up , or taught to us ? And then having considered this , you will find I believe , that the Church do with Doctrines , as Fathers with Estates , never give their Children all , that they may still have something to keep them in awe with ; because if she should , she could never have after pretended a Power to end any new emergent controversie , keeping in secret what she knowes , any that ariseth , she may still pretend is endable by her .

Fiftly , Consider that it will appear but a shift , if you say that there is a Tradition that all the Churches Definitions be true , and so excuse the particular Doctrines , for otherwise having none , and yet avoid giving us any Rules to know the Church by at all times , and answering those Questions , which must be ended before we can know at any time when she hath defin'd .

Now I confesse if you had said Tradition teacheth , that the particular Church of Rome is so the Admiral ship , that we may know any other if it be of God's Fleet , because then it must follow her , that is , be subject to her decrees , & theirs which joyn with her , this would have bin plainly to let me know your mind , and we might quickly have examin'd , whether there were any Tradition for the Church in this sence to be alwaies obeyed when she Teaches , and without you say this , you say nothing , and will never be able to give any such Note of the Church , as the ignorant may without blushing pretend to know it by : Because therefore I guesse , that when not I , but your Adversaries reasons ( for I am but one of the worst transcribers of them ) have driven you from your own Fort , you must retire to that of your friends , or like them which are drowning , you will rather catch at a Twigg , then sink : I will consider this Assertion , which I suppose you must lay hold of so far forth as to shew it to be indeed but an Assertion . That there hath no such Verbal Tradition ( nor indeed any ) come downe , seems to me for these reasons .

Saint Cyprian by opposing the Church of Rome , and that with many Bishops about the Rebaptization , shewes sufficiently , that he and they knew of no such Tradition ; and then in what Cave must it have lain hid , if the chiefe Doctor of that age was ignorant of it , and even his Adversaries claim'd it not ? And that he knew no such , appears not onely by his Actions , but also by his words ; for to them who claim'd Tradition for the particular point propos'd , ( though none for the Authority of the Church proposing ) he answers , if it be contain'd in the Gospels , Epistles , or Acts , let it be observed , at one blow cutting off not onely that ( for sure this authority of the Church of Rome is no way taught in the Scriptures ) but all other unwritten Traditions , which Cardinal Perron , thought most skilfull in that kind of Fence , was not able to ward , but Du Plesis objecting it receiv'd no other answer , then that the opinion of Cyprian was condemn'd , and that Tradition , although unwritten , maintain'd . Which answer though it be as far from befitting the Cardinall , as from answering the objection ( since it is plaine , that this opinion was once held by such as were of chiefe estimation among the Orthodox , and consequently the contrary was not then the generall and necessary doctrine of Christians , and the prevailing of the one since proves not the other false , but rather unfortunate , or the spreaders ( faulty ) yet I confesse I excuse him , for as I have learnt from Aristotle , that it is ridiculous to expect a Demonstration where the matter will beare but a probability , so would it be in me to expect even a probable solution of an Argument , the evidence of which will suffer none at all .

Neither was he ( I mean Cyprian ) the first , that without blot of Heresie oppos'd the Tradition of the Church of Rome , but that courage which he left to others after him , when they saw the Christian World joyne in counting him a Saint , and a Martyr , whom the Bishop of Rome had stiled a false Christ , and a false Apostle , the same had he received by seeing that the Asian Bishops had also rejected , and oppos'd her Tradition ; and yet Policrates ever had in great honour , and the rest never branded with the crime of Heresie ; nay , even the more neighbouring Bishops , and who joyn'd with the Pope in the time of celebrating Easter ( as Iraeneus ) yet thought the difference not worth excommunication , and for want of skill in the Canon Law , transgrest so farre as to reprehend for it , whereas if to that Church all else had been to conform themselves , then Iraeneus ought therefore to have thought the matter of weight enough , because she thought it so , who were to small purpose made a Judge , if she were not as well enabled to distinguish between slight and materiall , as between False and Truth , though that it seemes she was not : for the Church of Rome never refus'd their Communion before , though she knew them to hold the same opinion , and so ( as plainly appeares ) counted that materiall in one Age , which she had not so esteemed in others , and therefore ( in the degree at least of holding what she held ) contradicted herself , and followed Traditions .

And as Cyprian imitated them , so did the Affrican Bishops him , for a Question hapning between them and the Bishops of Rome about Appeales , though they absolutely oppos'd him , and ( in vaine I confesse ) desired him that he would not bring into the Church Typhum hujus Saeculi , the swelling pride of this World , and though he laboured infinitely in the businesse 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that he might bring it to passe , yet he , and two of his successors were either so unready , or so unskil'd in the present Roman Doctrine , that Feed my sheeep , and thou art Peter , were either out of their knowledge , or out of their memory , and they alleadged , not any power jure divino , but onely pretended to a Cannon of the Councel of Nice , which when the Affricans found not in their coppies , ( for they would not believe the Church of Rome so farre as to trust to hers , though now you generally think the Scripture it selfe to have its authority quoad nos , onely for her definitions ) they sent to the East to enquire there , and finding their coppies agreeing with theirs , they then more resolutely withstood the Pretence , which brought at that time nothing to the Popes , but repulse and shame .

And indeed , not to object that it is not numbered among any of the ancient Herisies , that they differ'd from the particular Roman Church , nor is this Rule , of being sure at all times to joyne with her , ever given by those Fathers who set us waies and Antidotes how to secure our selves against Heresie , ( which could not have been left undone if they had known any such Tradition ) nor to speak of the Cannon of the Councell of Chalcedon , which attributes the power of the Popes to the gift of their Fathers , and that againe to Romes being the head City ; setting all this aside , I will aske your selfe if it be not plain that those Fathers , who ( upon the impudent pretence of some Hereticks ) send men to severall places to enquire after Tradition , either send them to all the Apostolicall churches , or ( to save their labour ) to that to which they were nearest , as esteeming them all of equall authority ( though not jurisdiction ) for I may say of Rome , and them , as Tacitus doth of Caelius and the other Commanders ( Mutato nomine ) the name onely chang'd ) Pares jure , Roma audendo potentior , for what by watching all occasions to greaten herself , whereof Cardinal D' Ossat is my witnesse , Pag. 208. and 687. what by abusing the respect all men had ever given her , in respect of the chiefe Apostles which founded her , of the Empire which was long seated in her , and of her ancient Bishops , whereof about thirtie together were martyr'd there , what by interpreting what was given to her Authority , as given to her Power , and taking civilities and complements ( of which no Court is now so full as the ancient Bishops were ) made to Popes for alleagiance sworn to them , what by forging false decretall Epistles ( which the Tearmed Authors of them would not forgive them for , if they knew it , if it were onely for the barbarous language ) what by these , and such other waies , she is come at length to that passe , that what Avitus a Roman Generall said to the Ansibarians , who gave him reasons why he ought not in justice to disturbe their possessions , Id Diis placitum , Tacitus . ut Arbitrium penes Romanos maneret quid darent , quidve adimerent , neque alios Judices quam seipsos paterentur . It is the will of Heaven , that it be left to the Romans what they will please to give or take away , and suffer not any Judges but themselves , appeares now not so much a History of the Pride of the Roman Empire , as a Prophecy of the generall doctrine or the Roman Church .

Having ever marked Error and Confidence to keep so much company , that I seldome find the first , but I mistrust the second , makes me loath to affirme any thing over-dogmatically out of these objections , or say that they cannot be answered ; Onely ( because I must not offend against Truth , for feare of offending against Modesty ) I will take leave to say , that if I could have answered them my selfe , I would not have put you to the trouble of doing it , which you might also have sav'd , if by letting me know your name , you would have enabled me to have found you out , and so in a short discourse have tried whether I could have obtain'd that satisfaction from your words , which I must now expect from your Pen. But supposing I had none of these objections , yet two things besides would have kept me from assenting to what you say : The first is , that your men , when they aske us how we know Scripture to be Scripture , and this to be the sence of it , tell us withall , that unlesse we know it by some more infallible way then our owne Reason ( they mean their Church ) it will not serve for a beliefe of those things which are to be believ'd by a divine Faith ; Now this Argument of yours upon , which you build all , ( allowing that it appear'd good reason ) yet at most it is but reason , and liable to the same exceptions , unlesse the same thing be a wall when you leane upon it , and a bulrush when we doe . The second is , that all you say ( for as yet you speak not of the Authority of the Particular Church of Rome , though you must at length come to it , though by that too little is to be gotten ) if it were granted , would but prove those who adhere now to the Church of Rome to be now in the right , but I asked for a guide , which might without new search serve me the next yeer , as well as this ; For ( for all that you have prov'd ) she may leave the way you say she now pretends to walk in , and attempt to reform too , ( which I wish were as probable as it is possible ) or there may arise a schisme between two parts of those Churches which now adhere to the Roman , and both may claime Tradition , ( for what hath been may be againe ) and how shall I know then which side to take , since both will seem equally good by that Touchstone which you appoint me to try with . And if I be then sent to try by Ancient Writers , it is certaine , that ( besides the fallibility of that way for the learned ) this cannot be done at all by the ignorant , and it is probable that both Parties will fall into that absurdity , into which the Church of Rome daily runs , which is , that although the evidence which she claimes by cannot well be exactlie read over in thirty yeares time , yet she requires us under paine of Damnation to give our Verdicts for her by twenty yeeres old .

The Second Part.

Object . THe high and Sage Master of our Faith hath in vaine spent so much sweat , and paines , if after he passed from hence , he hath left no meanes to assure mankind , what it was he taught and practised .

Resp. I suppose this speech is directed at me who ( as you conceive ) take away all meanes , because I have no Judge ; but I would faine know of you , whether Plato , and Aristotle have not left us meanes to know what they taught , although they have not left us any living infallible Judge to deliver us their doctrine verbally , or to expound their works : Or if you intended your Accent upon the word Asiure , and if you mean by that some infallible knowledge , I desire you ( out of your own words ) to consider whether humane nature be capable of it . For my part supposing as I doe , that his Faith is in a sufficient degree , which brings forth obedience , I require not any motives more , assuring ( except from them who claime , that they cannot erre ) then such as any man unpraepossest with passion or prejudice will beleeve sufficiently to obey ; and such in my opinion are mine : For though I know , you count any way without a guide but groping in the dark , yet if God had nor given us so much light as we desired , we must not therefore set up false lights , and because we would be sure to have a guide , make one our selves : But he seemes to me , to have dealt with us in Religon not very un-analogically , to what he hath in the world , giving us two lights , Scripture , and Universall Tradition , whereof one gives light to the other , and both to us : Universall Tradition is our Guide to Scripture ( as whatsoever else that guided us to we would receive , if there were any such thing ) and Scripture is our way to God ; By Universall Tradition we know much better , that these Books were written by Christs Disciples ( who are sufficient witnesses of what he taught ) then the Aristotelians know that these were Aristotles works , or the Academicks knew Plato's , since Christians have both kept them with more care , and in the acceptance of them used more caution , as thinking them so much more important : In the Scripture I conceive , that ( according to that rule , which I am sure I have either read in Chrysostome , or very often quoted out of him ) 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , all that is necessary is clear , or if any man that strives to square both his actions and opinions by that Rule , chance to fall into any error ( for which his understanding is onely in fault and not his will ) it shall not hinder his rising to heaven : Such an infallible way excludes , if not all use , at least all necessity of an infallible guide , and is as good as a Judge to keep Unity in Charitie ( which is onely needfull ) though not in opinions ; and indeed since you must grant , that if any man mis-interpret the Councell of Trent , it shall not damne him , so he doubt not of its truth , desire to discover what it meant , and be in a Propension of beleeving , that when he knowes it , me thinkes ( as Cineas told Pirrhus ) you had as good doe that at first , which you must doe at last , that is , say the same with us at first concerning Scripture , which after much trouble , you are forced to say concerning Councels , and in hard matters let the same implicite Faith in God serve , which serves in them , who can claime no authority but from , and under him : And ( which is more then I affirme ) that no man , but by his own , being wicked , can come into any error by false interpretation of Scripture , see I pray , what Saint Austine saies in his forty ninth Sermon de Verbis Domini , that God hath so hedg'd in all his own sayings , that whosoever would interpret any place of Scripture false , he that hath a circumcised heart by reading what is before and after , may find that sence which the other would pervert .

Yet if you can shew me reason to beleeve that there is any standing guide upon earth ( and without reason it were unreasonable to hope to perswade me to beleeve it ) I will never be proud so much to my own cost , as rather to venture loosing my way by chusing it my selfe , then be beholding to him for directing me in it .

Object . Those to whom during his life , he had most fully declared his mind , went and told it to others , and all was done ; But this way hath the prejudice of humane Fallibility , for seldome it hapneth , that a multitude can carry away all in the same manner , and one thousand six hundred yeares are passed since , yet if we looke into the immediate joynts of the descent , we cannot finde where it can misse : for the doctrine being supernaturall , and not delivered by any mans skill , or wit , the maine principle of it can be no other , then to know what was delivered them by their Teachers : when therefore an Apostle had preached over and over again the same Doctrine , not long , nor hard to be carryed away in all the Townes of a Countrey , and let him be gone , and all dead who heard him speake , and some questions arise concerning his doctrine , let us see whether error can creep in if Christians keep to their hold , that is , what they were taught by Christs Apostles . Let therefore the wisest and best of those Townes meet and discusse the controversie out of this principle , will not there be a quick end of their dispute ? For every man can say , Thus my Father heard the Apostle speak , and what is here certaine of the Children of those who heard them , may with as much evidence be deriv'd againe in the Grand-children , and so in every age .

Resp. Those writings , whose businesse is to prove , should be like the houses in the Low Countries , for as there they take such care of their , foundations , that what is under ground costs them more then all above it , so in these , the greatest labour ought to be in setling surely the Principles , because 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 one absurditie granted , how fertile error is after , what a heard or swarme of strange conclusions follow , not onely your selfe have observ'd , but Aristotle also hath told all that have read him , and experience daily tels mankind ; since therefore a small mistake encreaseth as much , and as speedily as a graine of mustard-seed , I must the earnestlier contradict this 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , this first error of yours , as being the Parent of so many more already , and being likely in time ( if by being confuted it be not us'd as Sature us'd his Father ) to have yet a more large and numerous Issue .

Then you leave out one thing out of your History of the Gospell , which alone consider'd , would have much weaken'd what you say ; For you speak of the Apostles , but forget utterly their Writings , a mis-interpretation of which might soon spread an error . And certainlie out of them , if Christians had been to receive no Instrucions , but onely to remember what was taught them by word of mouth , both they would have sav'd themselves the labour of w●iting them , and Traditors , who deliver'd them to be burnt , would have been thought to have committed no greater fault , then if they had done the same to any ordinary writing : But if the first Christians , and generally their successours since , have ever carefully and assiduously studied ( what by comparing places , what by all other waies ) to understand them , and thought themselves bound to beleeve , and obey whatsoever they found , or thought they found there contain'd , and esteem'd that they were taught by themselves , what they learnt from their writings ( as they must have thought it the same thing , unlesse the Apostles authority had vanisht , by having their instructions put into paper , which were as if the Kings verball Commands bound us , bat not his Proclamations . ) Then here appeares a gate at which errors might enter , which you ( at least I am sure this part of your Treatise ) did not consider .

But even their verball might either bee mis-interpreted , or knowinglie mis-alledged , even by those who are counted Archi-Catholicks , Socrat. lib. 5. for I pray , must not one of those two have been done , or by the Church of Rome , or by those of Asia ( which example I would not so often speake of , but that I hope 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 is as good an excuse , as 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : ) For since it is impossible , that Saint John and Sain Peter both inspir'd by the Holy Ghost , which is the Spirit of Truth , should teach contradictorie doctrines , whereof one must necessarily be false , what else can follow , but that one part ( if not both ) intended to deceive , or were themselves deceiv'd in it ( and what makes it impossible , that such a mistake by men of authoritie may not generallie spread ) and after a plaine example your reason will be no more able to overthrow experience , then the earthen Pitcher , in the Fable , was to break the Brasen one , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

One of the Arguments you make for the infallibility of the way which you propound , is , That the Doctrine , which the Apostles taught was neither long nor hard to he carried away , Out off which me thinkes I can evidently deduce that the Church of Rome is not that , since both it appears how long that s , and since you tell us your selfe , That the cause of many errors among you is the multiplicity of Catholique Doctrines , which doth not oblige a man o the knowledge of every Part , but to a prompt subjection to the Church . Truely if there be no contradiction between these two Propositions , I will confesse that I have hitherto mistaken what the word signifies , unlesse you mean , that the Apostle by teaching subjection to the Church indusively , taught all that she teaches , and so what they delivered was short , but what implicitely , much ; If this were so , certainely the Apostles , when they included almost all their doctrine in the subjection enjoyn'd to the Church , taught some certaine markes by which men might at all times know her , though you pretend to none hut such as the Greeke Church as much claime ( which is enough to scruple the ignorant ) and rightly too , as the Roman ( as Antiquity , Succession , Miracles , &c. ) excepting onely communion with the Pope , and splendor , whereof neither are proper markes of the true Church , that is such as can never be absent from her , since the Heresie of a Pope ( which hath been , and is not by your owne whole Church held impossible ) may take away the one way , and a generall Persecution the other .

It appeares also by what you speake of the immediate join es of the descent , that you suppose if any errour come in , some one Age must joyn to teach it , which by no meanes followes , no more then one Age of them at Rome joyn'd to teach their Posterity Italian instead of Latine , but some may have taught a Doctrine to be probable in one Age , more then in the second , and all in the third , according to Seneca's observation . The error of few ( especially when Notable Persons ) begetting the error of a multitude ; and againe the authority of a multitude deceiving Particular men , and so by degrees it may be thought from Probable , True , from true fere de Fide , from that absolutely a part of Faith , and consequently to have come from Tradition , whilst the contrary opinion being first believ'd the more improbable , next false , from false Temerary , from temerary , Haeresi proximum , and from that absolutely Hereticall , hath by almost insensible degrees met with a mighty change , and is arriv'd at Hell before it almost misdoubted it . And that these progresse-Doctrines have travel'd , it is easie for any man to see who hath been but a little conversant in your own Books , and whosoever denies it , may as well deny that their is any green in Summer , when there is hardly any thing else .

And for the Case you put , that the wisest , and best of the Townes where Doctrines were delivered should have met &c. I both suppose , that the controversie of who were best and wisest , would not it self have been easily ended , but allowing that it might have been easily done , and would have been most usefully done , yet it never was ; and so suppose the way never so good , it was yet like a Medicine , which be it never , so Soveraigne , can never cure if it be never taken ; Councells there have been call'd Ancient , because lesse Modern , and generall , because lesse particular ( for the first was not till more then three hundred yeeres after Christ , nor to the largest appeares it , that ever any were summon'd from beyond the bounds of the Ancient Roman Empire , though Christianity were much farther extended : Some lesse meetings or Conciliabula there were indeed before , but none of these accounted infallible by your selves ( though me thinks they should by your grounds ) and indeed it would go ill with your own infallibility if you should , for of the two most notable , the one defended Rebaptization , and the other condemned Samosatenus , and in doing so taught as plain Arrianisme , ( if we might know mens meaning by their words , which if we cannot , all arguing , especially from what any Authors say , is ended ) as even Arrius himself was condemned for at Nice ; If these intended to discusse the Controversie out of the Principle you speak of , and yet miss'd Tradition when they meant to have followed it , then so might your best and wisest men have done too ; if they did not intend it , then it seemes it hath not been held needfull alwaies by Catholikes to try Doctrines by that Criterium , which you now prescribe .

Object . Who can be ignorant what he was taught when he was a child , as the ground and substance of his hopes for all Eternity ?

Resp. Truely the ordinary sort more then most easily : For because either their mind wanders , or their Teachers descend not to their capacities , they commonly goe away both from publique Sermons and private Catechismes , as if they had receiv'd instructions in a language as strange to them , as that wherein they say their prayers : Besides their own Fathers teach them little or nothing , because that is as much as they have learnt themselves , ( esperially in ignorant places and times ) their Ghostly Fathers teach them most , but that much more concerning life then opinions ; so that though they were not ignorant of all they were taught , yet they are absolute strangers to the greatest part of what your Church teaches ; And it now no more of their Religion be delivered by Verball Tradition , what was then , when many points , which are now often taught ( though not constantly and in all places but upon occasions ) were not thought of in many yeeres ? Suppose that about the Question of what makes a Priest , a convocation of men had met ( I mean of such who knew not what was taught in Bookes ) before Luthers time ( and what I say would be true in somewhat a lesse degree of this more instructed Age ) what account could they have given what they had been taught when they were Children ? Truely they could have said , we know it to be the custome for our Bishops to make Priests , and some of us have heard he onely is to make them , what is done and taught in other places we know not : Very far would they have been from all agreeing that they were taught when they were Children ( as part of the ground of their hopes for all Eternity ) by their Fathers , as receiv'd from theirs , as come down from the Apostles ; that he is no Priest , to whom in expresse tearmes Commission is not given to offer for the living and the dead , which now being objected to the Clergy of England , perswades me , that your Church teacheth more then generally men are taught when Children , or indeed at any time by any Verball Tradition : For not onely the Ordinary sort , but even your most learned men knew not what is Tradition , if that be still your Rule of Faith ; for they disagree among themselves , whether some things be of Faith or no ; as for Example , Whether the Pope can erre in the Cannonization of a Saint , Wadd . Pag. 30. for if all Questions were that way to be ended , and such Traditions were evident , ( as if they were such as you speak of they must be ) all your side must be soone resolv'd both in this , and all other such Questions ; And if you say that indeed all Particular Doctrines are not taught by such a Tradition , but that by so much as all are taught , they know their Judge and Director concerning them , and so are taught them implicitely , I answer , that the Vulgar , although they are generally told that the Church is infallible , yet I doubt whether they be either taught that this Doctrine hath had any such generall and uninterrupted a delivery , or have heard much concerning those meanes , by which she her-selfe is to he known , or those Circumstances , by which we are to know when she expresseth her opinion : That the Pope is the Head of the Church they know , but whether Tradition teach him to be so of Divine , or humane Right , from God , of Councels , or tacite consent , and what Power is included in that Headship , a Mahumetan as much instructed as most of them , and even his head-ship is ordinarily prov'd to them but out of some place of Scripture , our of which they hear his Infallibility concluded too , without being , told the different degree in which those two Doctrines are to be held . Secondly , For the learned , neither are they taught so well some of these things , but that they differ concerning them , and your self fly wholly speaking of them , leaving them to agree among themselves , His Opusc . and ( as Cardinall Perron saies in one place , he will do us Protestants when we differ ) suffering the dead to bury the dead ; If then neither are you all agreed by what to know your Church , nor when she hath defin'd , so that even what is of faith is undermined among you , I find cause to beleeve , that Tradition is no excellent Director of you , even in your grounds , no not to teach you to know that which should teach you all the rest ; And if you were , yet at the same wicket , and by the same degrees , by which I have shewd that other errors both may , and have not onely entered into your Church , but ascended also to high places there ; this doctrine concerning your Director might have done the same .

True it is , that very little is generally and constantlie taught in all ages to the people , and that which ; is seldome , is told them to have been so receiv'd from hand to hand by the verball Tradition you speak of ; and if they be at any time taught so , and remember it , yet they know not whether the next Curate teach the same , at least , if under the same notion and degree of Necessitie : Indeed it would not be so intricate a worke ( as now adaies it is ) to be a Christian , if your way had been onely followed : but it is not this Tradition , but the writings of past Ages , which transmit to posteritie the opinions of the Doctors of past times , many of them being erroneous , and more unnecessarie ; out of these works the learned learne , and teach againe in their workes , what the greater part ( the unlearned ) scarce ever heare of ; out of these they settle the degrees your Doctrines are to be held in , some as probable , some true , some almost necessarie , some altogether , and teach concerning others , that some are false , some dangerous , some damnable , whereas the vulgar have seldome their meat so curiouslie joynted to them , but are told in generall for the most part ( unlesse some publick opposition , or other occasion perswade them at some time to descend to teach them more parcicularlie ) that this is so good , and this is not so : And indeed the degree in which the last Age held such an opnion , is both most hard to know ( not onely because the ignorant are seldom taught it by word of mouth , and the learned have seldome occasion , without some opposition , to explaine themselves so farre in their writings , ) but because also as many , and as considerable Persons not writings , as doe write , we cannot know by the Authors , what the whole Age thought true ( except the acceptation of that Doctrine were a condition of the Communion ) and most necessarie to be known , because most of our controversies with your Church are as much , if not more , about the necessitie of her opinions , as about the truth of them : For we seeing plainlie , that in the purest ages many of the chiefest Doctors have contradicted some of her Tenets , without suspicion of Heresie , are not able to conceive how a doctrine should , from being indifferent in one age , become necessarie in another , and the contrarie from onely false Heriticall , — As time makes Botches Pox , And plodding on will make a Calfe an Oxe . Dr. D. especially if that way had allwaies been walkt in , which you now speak of .

Object . No judicious man can deny to see with his eyes , ( if he have cast them never so little upon the present state of Christendome ) that there is one Congregation of men which layeth claime to Christ his Doctrine , as upon this title , that she hath received it from his Apostles without interruption , delivered from Father to Son untill this day , and admits not any Doctrine for good and legitimate , which he doth not receive in this manner .

Resp. What the Judicious ( of whom I am no member ) can do , I know not , but I not onely can , but do deny it , you meaning by that Congregation the Church of Rome , for by seeing , that not upon this , but other kind of claim certaine Doctrines have arrived to the very brink of being defined ; I have cause to think , that if they received none in upon on other grounds , these would not be suffered to stand so neer the doore . And indeed there being between your selfe such differences , that Erasmus tels us , Praefat. in Hillar. that he who is a Heretick among the Dominicans , is Orthodox to the Scotists , sure one side hath admitted of a Doctrine for Legitimate , which hath not been so received , and then me thinks this being easily endable , which it is , by seeing which claimes such a delivery , ( for if both do it , then two Parts may , which you deny , if neither do , then your whole Church goes by some other Rule ) that which doth , upon that which you call the Catholique Grounds , me thinks should have obtained a definition for her , and the other , which refists that Principle , upon which they ought onely to build , should have been suddenly and absolutely condemned . This will appeare plainer , if we consider the opinions of your Church by the Actions of her Head , in a notable and late Example . A great controversie being risen between the Dominicans and the Jesuites , it was heard before Pope Clement , let us see then what course he took to find which Part held the Truth , since he was not likely ( especially in a time wherein , by being more opposed then usually , he had reasons to be consequently more cautious ) to chuse a new way , by which truth was not wont to be found out by your side upon like occasions ; Did he send for the wisest and best men from all , nay from adjoyning Parts , to enquire of them what they had been taught by their Fathers , to have been received by them uninterruptedly from the Apostles ? did he examine with which of them the first and purest ages sided ? did he consider which opinion would make us have the more excellent conceit of God , and work most towards the expelling of Vice ? None of all these were his . course , but he appointed both sides , to prove which of them followed Saint Austine , and according to them , he intended to give sentence , if the advice of Cardinall Perron had not prevailed to the contrary : But many days they spent in examining what he thought , who thought so variously concerning it , that he scarce knew himself which , whereas before him all the Ancients that I could ever meet with , were with the Iesuites with an Vnanimous consent , and by them ( if they must be tried by men as fallible as themselves ) it would have better agreed with their own Principles to have had both Parts judged .

After the Pope , let us hear Bishop , and allmost Cardinall Fisher , who being one of your own Authors and Martyrs , cannot be thought to praevaricate against that Church , for whose defence he imployed not onely his Inke , but his Blood .

His words are these ,

There are many things of which was no enquirie in the Primitive Church , which yet upon doubts arising , are now become perspicuous , by the diligence of after-times . And that you may see , that he speakes of points of Faith , He addes ,

No Orthodox man now doubts , Pag. 496. whether there be a Purgatory , of which yet among the Ancients there is no mention , or exceeding rarely : It is not believed by the Greeks to this day — Neither did the Latines conceive this Truth at once , but by little and little .

And for an Epiphonema he closeth it thus , Considering that Purgatory was a good while unknown ; after , Pag. 497. partly by Revelations , partly by Scripture came little by little to be believed by some , and so at last the beliefe of it was generally received by the Catholique Churches — Who can wonder concerning Indulgences , that in the Primitive Church there was no use of them ? Indulgences therefore began , after men had trembled a while at the Torments of Purgatory .

See I pray how will you two agree ? You say the Church of Rome receives , but what she claimes to be come down to her from the Apostles without interruption : He saith some of her Doctrines were long unknown , and came in by Revelations and Scripture ; you say new Doctrines cannot come into a Church that , holds this Principle : He saith , Doctrines have come in by little and little : So either she held not allwaies this Principle , or for all that they might come in : To be short , all , which he hath said , seemes to me , as if he had purposely intended to frame a Ram to batter down that fortification , which you have built about the Roman Church .

Now though he be of so great an Authority that he needs no backing , yet I will desire you to look into Alphonsus de Castro , where he speakes of Indulgences , and see if he mend the matter . He confesseth , that the use of them seemes to be late received into the Church , yet would not have them contemned , because many things are known to after-commers , of which those ancient Writers were wholly ignorant . Amongst whom there is rarely mention of Transuibstantiation , more rarely of the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son , of Purgatory almost none ; For though he speaks after as if he meant onely that the names of these were unmentioned , and not the things , yet it is plaine , that if he brought them into any purpose , it was to prove , that some Doctrines are after of necessity to be believed , which once were not , and Doctrines consist in the Things , not in the Name .

I could next tell you of Erasmus his saying , Epist. Pag. 1164. Res deduct a est ad Sophisticas contentiones , & Articulorum Miriades proruperunt . Religion is come down to Sophistry , and a Miriad of Articles are broken out . But knowing that his words will not find so much respect , ( because he himself finds lesse favour ) as those of others more allowed among you , let us mark these words of Sancta Clara , Pag. 296. 1 Edict . The Church , when it is saidto define any thing , she rests not upon any new Revelations , but upon theancient , lying hid in writings and words of the Apostles , which he sayes not as his private opinion , but the constant beliefe of Doctors : By which it appeares plainly , that there are at least interpretations of what the Apostles taught , drawn forth by Reason , not received : by Tradition , which makes now apart of the present Roman Religion . a sufficient Gappe for Errors to enter at , when either mistakings , or ends may become new opinions , and stile them but interpretations of the old . Salmeron a Voluminous Jesuite , one , neither by his order , nor his inclination an enemy at all to the Roman Church , being press'd by the opinions of the Ancients , affirmes , Doctores quo juniores , co perspicaciores esse , Tom. 13. Pag. 467. That the more modern Doctors are , the more prespicatious , that perincrementa Temporum nota facta , sunt Divina mysteria , quae tamen ante a multos latuerunt : In processe of time Divine Mysteries have been made known , which before lay hid from many ; That it is infirm arguing from Authority , and answers to the multitude of them , who in times past had opposed him , with these words of Exodus , That the opinion of many is not , to be followed , leading us out of the way , with some other very Anabaptisticall answers , and very contrary to your Tenets , ( for sure it were a strange Tradition , which had so many Orthodox Opposers ) and nothing inferiour to that saying of Zuinglius , so much exaggerated , Quid mihi cum Patribus , potius quam cum Matribus ?

The same Author in same place saies , that Saint Hierome durst not affirm the Assumption , but Saint Austine durst ; and by that meanes , the Church perswaded by his reason believes it : Such a notable Tradition have all her opinions ; for even this affirmation , which he confesseth , brought in this beliefs , is it self not now believed to be Saint Austines , for I take it , he must mean his tract of the Assumption , counted not his by your own Divinity-Criticks , the Lovaine Doctors , which have set it forth at Cullen .

And because I am willing to spend no more time in the proofe of so apparent a Truth , I will not urge Posa , who , to perswade the defining of an opinion , which hath a great current of the Ancients against it , ( so farr it is from having any Tradition for it ) reckons many other opinions condemned by your Church , In Elucidar Deiparae Pag. 1113. and defended by the Ancients , unlelsse you will believe his impudent Assertion , that they are all corrupted , and will passe to the Conclusion of this , which shall have for a Corollary , the Confession of a Spanish Arch-Bishop , who is to be thought to speak with more authority then his own , because being imployed to bring that to passe , which was desired by so great a Part of your Church , he can scarce be supposed not to have had the advice and consent of many of them in what he sayes .

He then tells us , First , Wadd . Pag. 125. every Age either brings forth , or opens her Truth : Things are done in their times , and severall Doctrines are unlockt inseverall Ages .

Secondly , Pag. 270. To shew that though his opinion had no such Tradition as you say your Church claimes for all her Doctrines , yet it may , and ought to be defined ; he desires to know who ever taught the Assumption of the Virgin , before Saint Austines and Hieromes time , and by whom was that opinion deduct from the Apostles : Nay , he absolutely affirmes , that before Nazianzene , no man ever taught any thing of her delivery without paine , yet many thought the contrary .

Thirdly and lastly , Pag. 202. For your absolute confutation , he confesseth , that we believe and hold in this Age many things for Mysteries of Faith , which in former Ages did waver under small or no Probability , and many Things are now defined for Articles of Faith , which have endured a hard repulse among the most and the weightiest of the Ancient Doctors , and no light contradiction among the Ancient Fathers ; and having reckoned up five Particulars ,

The Validity of Hereticks Baptisme , The Beatificall Vision before the day of Judgment , The Spirituallity of Angels , The Soules being immediately created , and not ex traduce , And , The Virgines being free from all actuall Sinne :

He shuts it up thus , Pag. 203. Many of these kinds of Opinions there are , which sometimes declined to one Part , sometimes to the other , and contrary Favourers , according to severall times , untill a diligent and long disquisition being praemitted , the Truth was manifested either by Pope , or Provinciall , or generall Councels , nay , and saies that the disquisition is made by conferring of Places of Scripture and Reason , which is the way which you mislike .

These things considered , Pag. 204. whosoever shall after say , that your Church claimes all her Doctrines to have come by a Verball and constant Tradition to her from the Apostles , I will not say that he is very , impudent , but I cannot think that a small matter will put him out of countenance ; for your part , I esteeme you so much , that I am confident you have not so little Nose as not to find the contrary , nor so little Forehead as not to confesse it , having received the Affidavit of such a cloud of Witnesses .

Object . Whosoever pretend Christ his Truth against her , saith , that true it is , she had once had the true way , but by length of times she is fallen into grosse Errors , which they will reform , not by any Truth which they have received from hand to hand from those , who by both Parts are acknowledged to have received their lesson from Christ , and his Apostles , but by Arguments , either out of Ancient Writers , or the secrets of Reason .

Resp. This is no farther true then as it concernes the Protestants , for the Greek Church will not suffer your proportion to be generall , but forbid the Banes .

They pretend not to have made any Reformation , but to have kept ever since the Apostles , what from them was received : Barlaam saier , they do 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 keep safe and whole the Tradition of the Catholique Church , nay , he proves his to be the found Part , because by them 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Nothing was ever more esteemed then her Tradition : And he objects it to your Church that she doth 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , disanull the Tradition of the Catholique Church , and setting them at naught , bring in strange and undenizon'd opinions : And that Greeke , who is joyned to Nilus , and Barlaam in Salmatius his Edition disputing against a Cardinall , chargeth you , that you do 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , sow Tares among the Tradition of the Apostles and Fathers : if when they make this claime they either say so , and think not so , or think so , and erre , then this proves , that though the Roman Church did make that claime which you say she doth , yet she too might either claime it against her Conscience , or against Truth : For this claime of the last cannot be denyed but by him , who will imitate that Hamshire Clown , of whom you give me warning , and believe no more then he sees himself , especially since your own Authors , when they dispute for Traditions , prove their authority from this profession of the Greeks : but I cannot blame you to forget them , ( if we would suffer you ) since they cannot be remembred but by your Religions disadvantage ; For I verily believe , that if they had but one Addition which they want , ( I mean Riches ) not onely most of them who leave the Protestants , would sooner go to them then to you , ( unlesse they would take their Religion as we take Boates , for being the Next ) but money among you , who ( though they dislike your pretended Infallibility , that the Popes usurpations upon the rights of other Bishops , his ( not ancient ) claime of power to deliver Soules out of Purgatory , &c , And yet are frighted from joyning with the Protestants , by want of Succession , Vocation , and such like Bull-beggers ) would goe over to them ( as I have heard Spalato meant to doe ) if they were not kept , by an unwillingnesse to change the spirituall tyrannie of the Pope , for the temporall of the Turke .

But ( although there were no such Churches , or they made no such claime , yet having shew'd out of your own Authors , that some opinions have not been constantly delivered by Tradition , but have entered into the Church upon the grounds ( which might at least possiblie deceive them ) of Scripture , Reason , and Revelation , and others knockt apace to be let in ) I hope we may be excused for making a reveiw of all , and examining what doctrines have been brought in , if not by Scripture ( which we think reasonable ) at least by comparing what this age teacheth and requires , with what the first Ages did ; to which we are encourag'd by your selves , who make agreement with Antiquitie , the chief mark of the Church , unlesse you meane your selves to be onelie Judges , even of those things by which you bid us to judge you : For our examinations by reason , I cannot tell why you mislike it , since those who trust their own reason least , trust it yet to chuse for them one whom they may trust , against which , all Arguments drawn from her fallibilitie without question lie . Your Religion is built upon your Church , her authoritie upon reasons , which we think slight and fallacious , and your selves think but prudentiall and probable ; ought we not then , nay , must we not examine them by Reason , or receive them upon your word ? And allowing them probable reason , yet I have still cause to examine further , whether your superstructions be not more unreasonable then your foundations are reasonable , for then I cannot receive a more , unprobable doctrine , then that is probable , which it is prov'd by : Yet ( in respect of things appearing divers , at divers times ) I doe not like my own way so well , as to esteem it absolutelie infallible , but though I keep it , because I account it the best , yet I will promise to leave it , when you can shew me a better , which will be hard to doe , because you cannot prove it to be better but by reason , against which proofe ( and consequentlie against whatsoever it proves ) your own Objections . remaine ; For to be perswaded by reason , that to such an authoritie I ought to submit it , is still to follow reason , and not to quit her . And by what else is it , that you examine what the Apostles taught , when you examine that by ancient Tradition , and ancient Tradition by a present Testimonie ? Yet when I speake thus of finding the Truth by Reason , I intend not to exclude the Grace of God , which I doubt not ( for as much as is necessarie to Salvation ) is readie to concurre to our Instruction ; as the Sunne is to our sight , if we by a wilfull winking chuse not to make , not it , but our selves guilty of our blindnesse : Indeed if we love darknesse better then light , and instead of esteeming it , shut it out , it were but just in God , if we so continue long hardened , not to suffer it to see after when we would , since so obstinatelie we would not when we might , like to that which happened to those Englishmen , of whom Froissard speakes , who having long bound up an eye , and made a foolish vow , never to see with that till they could see their Mistresses , when they returned , and unbound them , they saw nothing , but that they could not see .

Yet when I speake of Gods grace , I mean not , that it infuseth a knowledge without reason , but workes by it , as by its Minister , and dispels those Mists of Passions , which doe wrap up Truth from our Understandings . For if you speake of its instructing any other way , though I confesse it is possible ( as God may give us a sixth sence ) yet it is not ordinarie , and ought not to be brought to dispute , because so we leave visible Arguments to flie to invisible , and your Adversarie , when he hath found your play , will be soon at the same locke , and I beleeve in this sence , infus'd Faith is but the same thing , otherwise apparell'd , which you have so often laught at in the Puritans , under the title of private Spirit .

Object . This being supposed , either this Principle hath remain'd unto her ever since her beginning , or she took it up in some one Age of the sixteen , if she took it up , she then thought , she had nothing in her , but what she had receiv'd a from her fore-fathers , and if she thought so she knew it .

Resp. This Principle is not yet taken up by her , and suppose it were , yet since some other opinions are confess'd to have been receiv'd by her , not from a constant Tradition , but Scripture , and Revelations , and not at once , but by little and little , this very Principle of receiving nothing but from Tradition , might it selfe have been receiv'd not from Tradition : nor need it have been in any one Age of the sixteen , but some might have taught it in one Age , more in another , and all at last , and this so farre from being an impossibilitie , that it were no wonder .

Object . Let us adde , that the multitude of this Church is so dispersed through so many Countries , and Languages , that it is impossible they should agree together upon a false Determination , to affirme with one consent a Falsity for Truth , no Interest being able to be common to them all , to produce such an effect .

Resp. Although so many Countries could not so well agree upon it at once , yet some might so perswade others , that in time and by degrees the disease may be grown epidemicall : And trulie , considering in everie Countrie how few there are , who thinke of Religion at all , or of them againe , who walke in it by the directions of their owne eyes , even of them who take upon them to shew that way to others , but for the most part ( which they did much more in more ignorant times , when Scriptura sacra cum vetust is authoribus frigebat ) are lead by some few , whom they reverence for their Piety and learning , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , whose words are accounted lawes , Theodoret. and they againe by a Thomas , or a Scot , or at best by Austine , or Hierome , and thinke it Tradition enough to have it from them ( for else why thinke they to beare us downe with the Authoritie of one or two Fathers , if they thinke that not ground enough to goe upon themselves ) it seemes little stranger to me , what whole Countries should let in not ancient opinions , then that a few should , since a few in all places have ever govern'd all the rest ; of this I will bring two very known examples out of the Ecclesiasticall Historie .

The first is of Valens the Emperour , who , being himselfe an Arrian , and making peace with a Nation which was not so , and supposing that they would never have firme concord with him , to whom in Faith he was so opposite , was advised to perswade their Bishop to change his beleife , for which end having employ'd both words and money , and effected it , the Bishop , Theodoret lib 4. directlie contrarie to Saint Peter , being himselfe weakened , weakened his brethren , who yeelded to communicate with the Arrians ( which before they abhorr'd from ) and to esteeme the Father greater then the Sonne .

The second , is of that Macedonian Bishop , who , being persecuted by the Catholique Bishop of the same place ( who was then gone to Constantinople to fetch Souldiers , by whose assistance he might afflict the Hereticks the more ) resolved to turne Catholicke , and perswaded all his followers to joyne with him in that Act , and this in so short a time , that when the other returned , he found him chosen Bishop unanimouslie by both Parties , and himselfe ( for his crulelty , not undeservedlie ) excluded .

There is besides another thing which helpes to lett in great errors , which is , that men naturally neglect small things , and small things in time naturally beget great ; for which cause Aristotle shewing to us severall causes of the Changes of Government , one of them is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , adding , that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , often a great chang comes stealingly in , when what is little is not considered .

Yet besides the generall carelessnesse ; The Authority of the Teachers , the Flexibility of the Taught , and the smallnesse of the Things themselves at the beginning , even Interest it selfe ( which consists of two Parts , Feares , and Hopes ) is able to produce great effects : Of this me thinkes your selves may be witnesses , who use to call ours , a Parliamentary Religion , as thinking , that the Will of the Prince , and both Houses , onely made it to be received : Whereas in the beginning of Queene Elizabeths Raigne , of many thousand Livings which were in England , the Incumbents of not a hundred , chose rather to lose their Benefices for your opinions , then to keepe them by subscribing to ours ; all who ( for the greatest Part ) of necessity must be supposed for private interest , to have dissembled their Religion , either then or immediately before .

Secondly , In the Third Booke of Evagrius we find , that above five hundred Bishops subscribed against the Councell of Calcedon , which we have reason to think most did unwillingly , ( especially if the Infallibility of a generall Councell were so famous a Doctrine for Catholiques as now it is ) because we know it was upon Basiliscus his commands , and that a considerable Part of them ( the Bishops of Asia ) profess'd after they were forct to it , though before they had been very angry in another Epistle with those , who said that they had done by force , rather then Free-will .

And over , and above all this we may see by Erasmus his words , that many might not oppose a Doctrine brought in by great Power , in hope of a time to do it in , when there might be more likelyhood of prevailing : For he saith in one place of his Epistles , that those who resist opinions , when there is no probable meanes of doing good by it , are like those , who out of season attempt to break Prison , who gaines nothing by it , but to have their Irons doubled upon them : And the same cause which he thinks should move them to stay ( outwardly ) contentedly in Prison , may have made many others not resist , when they were first by violence and crowd carried thither , who might feare least their opposall might not help their cause , but beget a definition against it . And there being thus many severall motives which may work upon so many severall kindes of men , it is no wonder , if an error may soon over-runne all men , or seem to do so .

Next , Whereas you speak of severall Countries , and Languages , I must desire you to remember , that the Clergy of your Church are as it were all of one Language , ( Latine either being , or being supposed to be , as much theirs , as that of their own People ) and being under the Dominion of one , that is the Pope , which makes them as it were one Country , and from them the Laity receive all their opinions : Nay in ancient times almost all considerable men spoke the Language of the governing Nation , ( as all of the better sort of the Irish ) do English ) and the greatest part of Christians were governed by one man , the Emperour , and so a new opinion may easily have been received generally , no such barres being set up to hinder it , as you alleadge .

Object . Christian Doctrine is not a speculative knowledge instituted for delight , but it is an Art of living , a Rule of attaining to eternall blisse ; hence it followeth , that no error can fall , even in a point which seemeth wholly speculative in Christian Faith , but soon it breedeth a Practicall effect , or rather defection in Christian behaviour .

I wonder much to heare you say this , who certainely have a Religion consisting of many points , which are no wayes reduced into Practice : Especially from the degrees in which they are held , ( which I conceive introduced ) could arise no change in Christian behaviour ; I confesse that Christian Religion being a Covenant between God , and Man by the entermise of Christ , we Christians are properly concerned , but in the knowledge of what are the Conditions and Reward proposed and promised , what wee are to observe , and what to hope for ; and in so farre forth understanding the Nature and Attributes of the Covenant-maker and bringer , as we may be made sure , that whatsoever God hath promised or threatened , that indeed he hath : But though this principally concernes us , yet the necessity of beleeving the veracity of God , obligeth us moreover to give our Assents to any thing , how little soever it have to doe with practise ( as Saint Pauls having Parchments ) if it be once made to appeare to us either by Scripture-reason , Tradition , or any way to have been said by God either immediately , or mediately by Christ and his Apostles : And do not your selves count the Greekes Heretickes for denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son , ( though many Fathers deny it too ) though , I pray , what hath that to do with Practice or Christian behaviour , and if you should now change your opinion in this point , what outward change would it breed , except onely the blotting out of one clause in a Creed in your Liturgy , wherein it was not at first ? And not so much outward change would there be , Cap. 6 Lib. 3 de Romano Pontifice . if you should turne to believe Enoch and Elias , not bo be still alive , the contrary to which Belarmine saies all Catholiques hold now with a certaine Faith : And many more are of this kind .

Object . Whether man have Free-will or no , seemeth a Question belonging to some curious Philosopher ; but upon the Preaching of the Negative part , presently followed an unknown Libertinage , men yeelding themselves over to all kind of Concupiscence , since they were perswaded they had no power to resist , Free-will being taken away .

Resp. At this time it is not my own cause which I plead , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , since in this point I confesse , I should rather be a Pelagian , then a Calvinist , since the first doth not wholly overthrow Gods grace , ( for whatever we have by Nature , His grace gives us ) but the second wholly overthrowes His justice , besides the direct contrariety of their Doctrine to Scripture , they saying in effect , that the Kingdome of Heaven is to take us by violence , whereas that teaches us , that we are to take it so : But yet give me leave to say thus much for them , that though it be true , that ill life followes very consequently from that Principle , and those who hold it , must be ill Logicians , if they be good men , yet it is plaine , that very many of them live as good lives , as any who believe the contrary .

Besides , this in my opinion concernes as neerely your Dominicans , as our Calvinists , since they use Free-will , as Tully saith Epicurus did the Gods , verbis asserunt , re negant , assert it in words , but deny it in deed ; yet I think you will not say that they are the more licentious , for ( by direct consequence ) denying Liberty ; If therefore an opinion , which is so neerely tyed to action , produce no more effects , how much fewer would those other so much more unconcerning Tenets bring forth ?

Object . I need not instance in Prayer to Saints , worshipping Images , Prayer for the Dead &c. which it is evident could not be changed without an apparent change in Christian Churches .

Resp. Without change ( which though it must be then apparent , yet need it not be so to us ) I confesse they could not come in , but with little opposition they might : The doubtfull estate of the dead after this life , before the day of Judgment-audit , being much better that they should have our Prayers , though they want them not , then misse of them if they want them , may not unlikely ( and peradventure not unreasonably ) have brought in that Custome without either giving scandale , or being received by Tradition ; Though if it had , you would have gotten little by it , for unlesse such a Purgatory , out of which Indulgences may deliver , will follow out of it , the Pope will not care for the other , as being 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , nothing to profit : And though he did establish a Purgatory , yet it might be one after the Resurrection , for such a one , more then one Father speakes off : But it need establish none , ( no not any third place , which is lesse ) for the Prayers might be first intended for the encrease of the happinesse of the Blessed , and relaxation of the torment of the Cursed , which latter effect , that the Prayers for the dead have , is said by Prudentius , and confess'd to have been said , both by him , and others , by your own Heroe , Lib. Con. Reg. Iac. Pag. 892. Cardinall Perron .

Of the worship of Images I shall speake hereafter .

Praying to Saints may have come in upon consequences drawne out of mistaken places of Scriptures , or others , which inducing the opinion , that they enjoy'd the beatificall vision before the day of judgement , some might conclude , that then they saw all in it , and at first pray to them but conditionallie , till their number increased , and with it the degree in which they held the opinion , till now to deny it is accounted Heresie , though I know no Father which justifies our invocating of them ( although they speake of their interceding for us ) before Nazianzene , whose example alone being of so great authoritie might spread it much : though , I pray , remember , who ( as saies Nicephorus Calistus . ) it was that brought it first into the publick Liturgie .

Object . It is not possible , that any materiall point of Christian Faith can be changed , as it were , by obreption , whilst men are on sleep , but it must needs raise a great scandall , and tumult : For suppose the Apostles had taught the world it were Idolatry to pray to Saints , or use reverence to their Pictures , how can we imagine this honour brought in but by a vehement conflict and tumult in a people , which did so greatly abhorre Idolatry , as the Apostles and Disciples did .

Resp. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : I spoke cheiflie , not of changing a point of Faith , but of creating one , not of contradicting a doctrine delivered from the Apostles , but of introducing one , of which they were wholly silent , either as theirs at first ( as yee must say Pappias did ) or onely as True , till being rooted and spread , it be beleeved Apostolicall upon Tertullian's Argument , that else how could so many Churches , errare in unam fidem , erre into the same beleife , which ( because lesse time had then been allowed error to disperse it selfe in ) was then , though no concluding proofe , yet a better then it was the next Age , and so still grew the worse for the wearing , till now it is worth just nothing .

But as Himerius saith , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , I say , t is most easie to answer that which is not imputed , for I am so farre from saying that the Apostles taught these two things to be Idolatrie ( since on my Conscience they spake not of them directlie at all ) that I my selfe will not say they are . For Prayer to Saints ( set aside your Idolatrie-like Expressions , seeming to beg that of them , which you professe , you meane onely to have them beg for you ) I suppose the Question to be but this , whether they heare us or no ( which Martyrs might possiblie doe , and yet no other , how holy and canoniz'd soever , because many Fathers held that none else see God yet ) If they doe , I beleeve you may as well ( or better , because you are more sure of their being in favour with God ) desire them to intercede for you , as you may desire the Prayers of any living Friend , but if they doe not , then I will not say in Chrysostomes phrase , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , what Thunder-bolts doth it not deserve , but how unreasonable is it to cast men out of the Church , and send them out of the world , for not assenting to an opinion , which you cannot prove .

For reverence to the Pictures of Saints , if you meane onely some outward civill respect , to testifie the great honour and love which you beare the Prototypes , It is , I beleeve , no more Idolatrie , then keeping off our hats in the Presence-Chamber to the Cloth of Estate .

Yet this I am so farre from esteeming necessarie , that I thinke they had better never come in , then have occasion'd so much un-christian turmoile about so indifferent a thing . The first and purest Ages did well enough without these Pictures ( we heare onely of a Parabolicall one of Christ in a Chalice ) after they came to be made , Tertul. after to be set in Churches , after to be prayed before , nay , at last they are come to so great an excesse , that not onely against Scripture , but all Antiquitie , they are now come to picture God the Father himselfe : Upon a Popes Letter to an Emperour , wherein he defends the picturing of Saints and Christ , and speakes improbablie of the Antiquitie of their Pictures , and addes the reason why they pictured not God the Father , Baronius saies in the Margent . Yet it hath after happened , that they pictured him as he hath appeared ; a way which the Church of that time could easily have found out , had they thought it lawfull , as it is plaine Saint Austine did not , De fide & Symb. unlesse Nefas est be an Approbation : This alone may serve to shew that beleifes may come in , even contrarie to that of former time ( and yet we not know when they entered ) unlesse you will oppose a superficiall reason , that a thing cannot be to a plaine example that it is , and force me to answer with Barlaam , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , you tell me , it is impossible for him to die , whose Corse I look upon .

Object . We remember in a manner as yet , how change came into Germanie , France , Scotland , and our own Country , let these be a signe to us , what we may think can be the creeping in of false doctrine .

Resp. This is but a continuance of the same Paralogisme : For at this time , in these places , a setled Religion being contradicted , the case is very different from an Opinions prevailing in the mindes of men , when they were yet white Paper , and not filled with any doctrine to the contrarie , either because though once the contrarie had been taught , yet it had slept a good while , or because nothing had before been spoken concerning it : We know , that nothing makes Noise but Opposition and Resistance , and if that be not much , it will not last long , and the memorie of it as little : Besides most of these points making for the power and wealth of the Clergie , you must not expect , that there should have been as great an out-crie and hubbub when they were introduced at first , as when expelled after long prevailing , it being a worke , both more short , easie , and secret to plant an Acorne , then to cut down or remove an Oake ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) although those men which governe the rest , were not in this case so much interessed .

Object . There is no point of doctrine contrary to the Catholicke Church rooted in any Christian Nation , that the Ecclesiasticall History doth not mention , the times and combats , by which it entered , and tore the Church in peices .

Resp. The combats wherein it tore the Church , peradventure it doth , but of the times wherein many entered , they are altogether silent . All take notice of Arrius his words , when by reason of Alexander's hot opposition there grew divisions , but of what the Orthodox-counted Authors ( which we have ) before the Councell of Nice said ( though aske Perron , and he will tell you , how like Arrianisme they look ) no Ecclesiasticall Historie makes any mention , because they made no bounce like the other , and so in likeliehood tooke no more notice of other opinions , which made none neither . And what is said of this point , may be said of Eutychianisme ( see the same place of Perron ) for we know how Dioscorus called upon the Fathers of the Pelagians , and others , whose opinions were certainlie in the Church before them , who are now counted the Authors of them .

Nay , even of opinions rooted ( as you call it ) are not the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the the Father onely , the communicating Infants , the admitting none to the Beatificall Vision but Martyrs , and other such rooted in the Greeke Church ? or can you tell when they entered ? at least was it not long before any combat concerning them ? But suppose this were true , it is but accidentally so , for some of those writings which deliver this to us , might as well have been lost , as many others which were , so that no man can conclud that , of whatsoever no beginning can be shewed in Ecclesiasticall story , that hath not been introduced , ( especially since I speak not so much of opinions opposing the Ancient Tradition , as of Superfaetations , not onely of pointes indeed Materiall , but of such as in continuance of time , have grown to be thougt so ) for how can I tell , many of them having been lost , but some of those would have given me notice of it , if I now had them .

Object . Let it therefore remaine for evidently constant , that into the Christian Church can come no Errors , but it must be seen and noted , and raise scandale and opposition .

Resp. Here Sir not onely 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , you resolve upon a Truth of a conclusion before you have proved the Premisses ; but even that is such a one as followes not out of them , although they were granted : For how followes it , that because all heretofore have been noted , therefore all at all times must be so , nay , that though at the comming in they found scandale and opposition , we necessarily ( many centuries after ) must know they did so . For the knowledge , which we have of these things , is but Reliquiae Danaum , what was overseen by the zeale and negligence , and how much we want of what we might have known , had the rest scap'd , no man can tell who pretends not to Revelation , and to the ability of knowing what was in Books , whereof he never saw any , and never heard of most : But though it followes not , such a thing hath been done , therefore it must ever be , yet it followes ( in spite of the most severe exception ) such a thing hath been done , therefore it may be ; As for example , since Valentinian the Emperour bringing in so contrary to Christian Religion , as you will confesse Polygamy to be , and establishing it with a law which allowed it , and yet those who tels us both of his actions and his Edict ; speaking no tittle of any opposition which was made to it , but he ever accounted a very good and pious Emperour , and his Son by his second wife ( his first still living , and undivorced from him ) being esteemed Legitimate , and succeeding him in a part of his Empire ; think you whether his authority could not have drawn the Principall men , ( and inclusively the rest to subscribe almost any opinion , who could keep them from opposing such an Act , or such a Law : And if though this be now counted unlawfull , yet we find not , that either any Bishop advised him against it , or excommunicated him for it , or indeed any man disliked it : If any false opinion backt by great Power , have been not onely ( like this ) introduced , but spread and setled , how unlikely is it that we should now know what scandals it raised , supposing it raised any .

Object . As in our Naturall Body , the Principall parts are defended by bones , flesh , skins , and other defences , that no outward Agent can come to offend there , before having annoyed some of these ; so in the Catholique Faith , there are in speculations , those which we call Theologicall Conclusions , and other pious opinions , and in practice , many rights and ceremonies , which stoppe the Passage unto the maine Principall Parts of Christian beliefe , and Actions .

Resp. Either these Theologicall conclusions , and pious opinions are derived from the same Tradition , or they are not ; if they be , then sure they are equally matters of Faith , and so need some other course to defend them , and you must find Quis custodiet ipsos custodes : If they be not , but were onely Deductions either of the first Ages Logick , ( which was not alwaies excellent ) or of that of more Modern times , then may they so easily be false themselves , that I know not how they can serve to preserve the rest certainly from all corruption indeed to secure any Truth : But I believe many may be miscounted Hereticks , for onely opposing some of these , what through the over-caution , and too much ardor of some Primum mobile , and of the greater part lead by a few such , what through their being come ( having been long ) from pious opinions , to be matters of Faith , as in great Families Servants , who haue waited long in meaner places , are rewarded with higher : Besides I verily believe , that many Doctrines , which you account necessary , have no such redoubts about them , or at least have not alwaies had , and indeed you onely affirming it by Tullies Rule , ( who was no small Master of Reason ) Sat erit verbo negare , It will be enough for me barelie to deny it . And for Rites and Ceremonies which you suppose guard your Doctrines , ( many used among the Ancients being not now in use amonst you ) either some Tenets , which those did guard , and they did hold , yee hold not ; or if you do still , at least they are how unguarded .

But still , I speaking most of the easinesse , that false and new Doctrines not contradicting the old , may be brought into the Church , what answer is it to tell me , how the Principall of Christian Religion are sure guarded , since so they may be , and yet such other may be brought in : As Christs Promises , and chiefe injunctions may be retained , and yet praying to Saints , and Purgatory , and such like , be superinduct .

Object . Let any discreete man consider , what further evidence he can desire , or peradventure what greater assurance Nature can afford .

Resp. Sir , I wish you so well that I cannot but give you warning , that this saying of yours doth Sapere Haeresin , since it seemes as if you disclaimed any absolute Infallibility , and pretend onely to grounds of most possibility , which the Protestants doing too , use yet to be accused for making nothing certaine , and having no firm foundation to build any thing upon : But as you claime lesse , then by your own Rules you should , so you claim still more , then either you are able to prove , or we likely to grant .

Object . The Philosophers say , it is indisciplinati ingenii , to expect in any Science more exactnesse then the Nature of it affords .

Resp. I confesse this to be true , but I desire you also to remember , that as it is absurd to expect as exact a proof in the Politicks , as in Geometry , so it is absurd to expect as high a degree of Assent to the first , as to the second of my objections , being intended against those , who will be infalliblly believed to be infallible upon probable grounds , for they themselves give them no higher a Title , and indeed that it self in my opinion , is more then they deserve .

Object . What shall we expect then in Religion , to see a main advantage on the one Party we cast our selves upon .

Resp. Truely such Advantage on your part I cannot see : Neither if I did , could I in reason joyn with you . A maine advantage it is to have more Truth then any other Society of Christians , but supposing you had so ( which is but a supposition , for I verily believe , if the Queston were but , who had most Title to so much , yee would appear to a dispassionate man , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Neither third nor fourth , according to the answer of the Ancient Oracle ) yet you withall require , not onely that I should believe you erre in nothing , but that you never can , and then I had rather remaine in their communion , I say not , who themselves erred not , but whose conditions of Communion were lesse rigorous , and exacted not of me to professe they could not erre , when I believe they do . And if you answer , that it would necessarily follow , that if they had fewest errors , they must have none , because some society of Christians must be allwaies free from all this ; I shall absolutely deny , and the more earnestly , because I know this is a trappe , wherein many have been caught , who taking this for granted , have examined the Doctrines of the most known Churches of Protestants , and finding ( as they thought , and peradventure truely ) some errors in them , some Doctrines no way to be proved but upon Popish grounds , and by that justifying those , and some imputations imposed upon their Adversaries , wherein their Tenets , or the consequences from them were mistaken , they then by the Doggs Logick have run over , without smelling to the Church of Rome , as knowing no other Society but these , and being praepossest , that one of necessity must be free from all error : Whereas for my part , as the 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , those who bound not themselves to believe absolutely the whole Doctrines of any Sect , but pickt out what they thought accorded with reason out of them all , were a wise sort of Philosophers , so they seem to me reasonable Divines , who speak Gods will as they did Truth , ( for it is not to chuse by reason , and Scripture or Tradition received by Reason , which makes a Hereticke , but to chuse an opinion which will make most either for the chusers Lust , or Power and Fame , and then seeking waies how to entitle God to it ) For since it would be a Miracle , if the Errors of the Roman Church being long gathering could have been all discovered in a Day , or if it had been possible for the first Reformers , ( who having their eyes but newly open , it is not strange if ( like the man in the Gospel ) they saw at first men walking like Trees , and had but an imperfect apprehension of Truth , especially being in Tullies state Quem fugio habeo , Quem sequar non habeo . I see whom to fly , but not whom to follow , not to have left some opinions untaxt , which yet were errors , nor to have expurged others , which yet were none ; I cannot see why we may not in some points joyn with the one , and with others in other , and besides find some Truths which ly 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , well in the mid-way betweene the Parties , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , nay in some points differ wholly from both : Which Liberty , if it were generally allowed , and generally practised , if particular interests were trod wholly under foot , especially by the greatest , and if such spirits as those of Cassander and Melancton were more common , no considerable things would in a short time be left , but all would flow againe in the same Chanell , whereas this opinion , that allwaies one part erres not , is both prejudiciall to Truth , and the best Unity , which is , that of Charity , for it perswades them who have fewest errors , to believe those to be none , and to hate all opposers as Hereticks ; and of this your Church is most guilty , which not onely affirmes that there is such a one , but that she is it , and prophesies as much of her selfe allwaies for the future , as she promiseth for the present , and upon this ground ( like him who having won nineteene games at Tables , threw the Dice in the fire for not winning him the twentieth ) though we should yeeld to her in all points but one , and that the least considerable , she would yet throw us into the fire as Hereticks , for dissenting from her in that .

Object . You are bidden to put what yeare , or age , such an error entered , and it is evidently true , that then that yeare , or age , the Church conspired to tell a lie , and deceive their Posterity .

Resp. You would never be loved , if you were a Poser , and used to aske such hard questions , for either you must mean by [ an opinion entering ] when first any man pofessed it , or when first by all in communion with your Church it was assented unto : If you mean the first , it is impossiible to be answered , for if one should ask , who taught first that Christ was not begotten by God , before he was conceived by the Virgin Mary , ( through his power and the over-shadowing of the Holy Ghost ) one who knew little of Antiquity , would answer Socinus , a more learned Person would say Photinus , another Paulus Samosatenus , another might find before him , Artemon and another yet before him , Theodorus 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , ( with whom curious Logicians , and great Readers of Euclid , Aristotle , Galen , and Theophrastus were joyned ) and yet that he was the first we have no certainty , for if a little of Eusebius had been lost , Theodorus , and Artemon had not been now heard of , which may as well have happened to others before them , either by want of being taken notice of by an Historian , or by the losse of the History , and not onely is this so in this , but in all other points .

If you mean the second , ( for so you must by your Inference , though the words of the Question will bear both sences ) it is as impossible for you to receive an answer . For how shall I know when all it is granted ? For suppose no Author to have been lost , and me to have read and remembred them all ; yet ( as in England when the Calvinists opinion prevailed most , as wise and learned men , as those who writ , though differing in opinion from the Authors , yet opposed them not so publiquely , but that many might believe the more generall Tenet to be received by all ) how should I know that the opinions of the Authors of severall Ages , did agree with that of all equally wise and learned in the same times , for if there be no greater certaintie of the opinions of all of one Kingdome in our owne Age , think what Infallibilitie can we have concerning an absolute generall consent a thousand years agoe . And of this , France may as well be an example as England , wherein many called Cassandrians , dissent from the publiquely received Doctrines , though with so little stirr , that our Posterity will not know that there now are such ; So that all which any man can answer to this Question , is , that such a one was the first that he knowes of , who taught such a Doctrine , and such a time the first , wherein he knowes not that any contradicted it , or that your Church defines it for a necessary opinion , and exacted assent to it , as a condition of their Communion ; which answer will be nearer to Truth or Falshood , according to the measure of the answerers learning ; And indeed if you please to remember , that when learning rose againe , and the Reformation began , most Manuscripts of considerable Books , had long layn unreguarded by the generallity in Popish Libraries , and out of them onely had some few been Printed , you must confesse , that it was in the power of your Church , what answer we should be able to make to that Question which you propose , which then it is no-wonder if it were not answered , for your willingnesse to keep men in darknesse concerning this , even in times of most light , is to be seen by your expurgatory Indexes : For there , though you professe to meddle with none but Moderne Authors , ( whereas it is plaine you go as high as Bertram ) yet both that will serve to deceive our posterity concerning the generall opinions of these times , and if your Church in former Ages used any course somewhat Analogicall to this , upon those Authors who then were moderne too , ( as likely enough they did , or you have cause to hope they did for your more justification ) then how can I know when any opinion entered , that is , either first was at all , or first by all taught : since in all times ( how little mention soever be made of it ) there may have been some Doctors of that opinion , though either no Authors , or allthough Authors , yet by this Stratageme may be kept from us .

Neither indeed can you answer this Question your self , for you know not in what Year , or Age , did either the giving the Eucharist to Infants begin , or end , at least Saint Austine knew not the first , who believed it an Apostolical Tradition ; Neither was this a bare Custome , but implyed an opinion of good which Children received , which the change shewes plainely to have altered , and certainely either the first opinion was a Superstition , or the latter a Sacriledge .

But howsoever your Consequence followes not , for though your Church conspired , and deceived their Posterity , yet it might not conspire to deceive their Posterity , but to instruct it , being themselves deceived . And therefore when you reckon up the Motives which men have to speak false , I wonder to see Hopes , and Feares put in , and error left out .

Object . It is Gods course deeplier to root and strengthen those things which he would have most flourish . Now Christians know , that he made mankind for his Elect , the world for mankind , and therefore he hath rooted those things , which more immediately belong to his Elect ( as his Church , Faith , and Holy Spirit in it ) then the principles either of mans nature or of the world , which was made for it , himselfe assuring us of it , when he told us , That one tittle should not perish of the holy Writ , though Heaven and Earth should be dissolved , and so seeing the latter principle relyeth upon the not failing of God to his Church , which should ever watch upon their actions , that nothing should creepe into Christian life , which presently the zeale of the faithfull should not startle at . I thinke it needlesse , to seeke further to qualifie the strength of that part , which receiveth it from the quality of so good a workman as the Holy Ghost .

Resp. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , I must therefore observe , that this word [ Church ] hath so many significations even among your selves , that it seldome comes into the mouth of a Romane Arguer , but there comes withall , foure Termes into his Sillogisme , I could wish therefore , that you would still set downe your Definition of it , and put that ( instead of the word Church ) into what you say , least what your late Graecian Defender Cariophilus saies of Hereticks , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that they delight in doubtfull expressions , may seem more properly to belong to you : Certainlie in some sence the Elect are Gods Church , and in that sence , the Church belongs not to his Elect , but is it , neither indeed know I ( define it as you please ) how it doth , since you confesse , that men may oppose any companie of men , whomsoever you will call the Church , without being obstinate , or consequentlie by heresie excluded from Heaven , and so may , for all that , be elected . Neither indeed know I , how God hath made mankinde for his Elect : It is true , that having elected those who shall persevere in Faith and Obedience , and given man Free-will , which ( joyned with Grace universallie offered ) might bring him to the condition , and in that to election , and by that to Heaven ; God may be said , to have made mankinde for his elect , that is , to be his elect , if they shut not themselves out of the way to be so ; And all men ( especiallie Christians ) I beleeve have , and alwaies shall have meanes enough to performe these conditions , in such a measure ( all things considered , I meane , either naturall defects , as in Ideots , never having heard of Christ , as in many Pagans , not having Christs will sufficientlie proposed , as in many Christians , and whosoever is not by some fault in his will hindered from assenting , to him it is not proposed sufficientlie ) as shall by God be from them required .

But this hinders not , but that all Christians may see what they should , if they stand not in their own light , or wilfullie winke , and if they neglect Christs Instructions or Commands , and make themselves deafe against his voice , charme he never so wiselie , they then may fall from necessarie Truths ( much more from others ) unto error , as well as from good life into wickednesse , from which , without question , Gods Spirit is as readie to keep men that will be kept , as from the other , and which is no lesse ( if not more ) part of the conditions required ( for in that epitomie , which Christ hath given us of the day of judgement , men are onely mentioned to be punished for want of Charitie , and not mis-interpretations of doctrine ) though I grieve to see so many of all parts ( whereof I am too much one ) live , as if God were so obliged to them for their Faith , that he were bound to winke upon their workes , and not to be an Idolater , or not a Heretick , were enough not to be damned .

And certainlie to say , That one tittle of Gods Word shall not passe away , is not to say , that God will keepe here alwaies a knowne companie of men to teach us all Divine Truths , which from them , because of their authoritie , we may without more adoe accept ( for unlesse you meane the Church in this sence , it concernes not our differences ) till you can prove that this word makes some such promise . For this seemes to me onelie to shew the veracitie of Gods Word , without speaking at all of any Churches continuall obedience to it , or true interpretation of it , or the impossibilitie of her receiving the Traditions of men for the will of God .

Besides in this Paragraph I observe three things :

The first , That you now draw your Arguments from the stedfast Truth of Holie Writ , whereas you neither quote out of it any thing to prove your maine Assertion , and in that way , which you laid before to finde out Truth by , you tooke no notice at all of Scripture , but would have all differences decided , by onely comparing what men had by verball Tradition , like that Dominican , of whom Erasmus tels us in his Epistles , that when in the Schooles any man refuted his conclusion , by shewing it contrarie to the words of Scripture , he would crie out , Ista est Argumentatio Lutherana , protestor me non responsurum ; This is a Lutheran way of Arguing , I protest I will not answer to it .

Secondlie , You now bring the proofe of your certaintie from Gods spirit never failing his Church ( though you neither define what is there meant by Church , nor doe you bring any proofe , or ever can , that Gods Spirit will stay with any unlesse they please it , or that this will not consist with the least error in divine matters ) whereas before you made it a Physicall , or rather superphysicall certaintie , that Traditions must be delivered from Age to Age uncorrupted , and this , not because of any other assistance , but ex necessitate Rei .

Thirdlie , You seeme to thinke , that aptnesse to startle in the faithfull , will serve to secure them from all error , whereas I must professe my selfe , of opinion , that in some times , and some cases , that may serve to induce it ; for ( it being trulie said , that there is as much follie beyond wisedome , as on this side of it , and Nazianzene telling us trulie , that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the marke is equallie missed by over shooting , as by shooting short ) I doubt whether over much caution may not have made some doctrines , and their Abetters condemned ( especiallie when they appeared somewhat new ) some Truths rejcted for feare , least they did by consequence contradict some point of Faith , when indeed they did , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Arist. Ethick . as Dogs often barke at a friend for an enemie , upon the first noise he makes , before having considered which he is : This made the Ancients so earnest against the now-certaintie of the Antipodes , this in after times , for the same opinion , cost a Bishop his Bishopricke , and truth in all probabilitie , would have then beene defined a heresie , if a generall Councell had been called about it : Since then this aptnesse to startle hath inclined Orthodox Christians to condemn , not onely those who had affirmed in termes the contrarie to Tradition , but even those , from whose opinions they thought it would result , and consequentlie to exact an Assent , not onely to direct Tradition , but also to whatsoever else seemed to them reasonable deductions from it ; This seemes to me a way by which Errors may have entered by shoales , the first Ages ( I mean then , Cum Augustinus habebatur inexpugnabilis Dialecticus , quòd legisset Categorias Aristotelis ) not having been so carefull and subtile in their Logick , as these more learned times both Arminians and Catvinists , Dominicans and Jesuites , Papists and Protestants , seeming to me to argue much more consequently to their owne Principles , more close to their present businesse , and every way more rationally then the ancient Doctors used to do I mean those which I have seen : And I am confident , that if two or three Fathers should rise againe unknown , and should return to their old . Argument against the Arrians , from Cor meum eructavit verbum bonum , both Parties would be so farr from receiving them for Judges , that neither would accept of them for Advocates , nor trust their Cause to their arguing , who opposed their common enemy no better .

Now that this way of making Deductions out of Tradition , and those both very hasty , and false ones is very ancient , appeares even by an example in the end of the Gospell of John , for there out of Christs words falsly interpreted , a conclusion was drawn and spread among the Bretheren , that Saint John should not dye , and what they did out of these words of Christ , other in other times may have done out of other words of his , and their Collection passe for his Doctrine ; which shewes the great advantage which we have by Gods Word being written since , if it had not , we could not alwaies have gone to a new examination of the very words , which Christ or his Apostles taught , and consequently a consequence of them spread in the place of them , would have been more incurable then now it is . I will also desire you to look in the five hundered eighty fourth Page of the Florentine Councell , set out by Binius , and there you will find , that the Latines confesse , that they added the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son , to the Creed , because the contrary opinion seemed to them by consequence , contrary to a confessed Tradition of Christs eternall Divinity , to which , yet it will appear out of what Cardinall Perron hath excellently showne , Con. Reg. I●c . Pag. 708. ( though upon another occasion ) that it doth not contradict , but that this consequence was ill drawne , which may have been in other points too , and have brought , in no small multitude of Errors since , neither was their Logick certaine to conclude better , nor were they lesse apt to add to their Creeds accordingly , at any other times then they were at that .

Object . I doubt not but whosoever shall have received satisfaction in the discourse past , will also have received in the point we seek after , that is , in being assured both that Christ hath left a Directory in the World , and where to find him , there being no doubt but it is his holy Church upon Earth : Nor can there be any doubt which is his Church , since there is but one that doth , and can lay claime to have received from hand to hand his holy Doctrine .

Resp. That which makes you expect that your Reader should have received satisfaction by what you have said , is , that since Christ hath a great care of his Elect , he must consequently ( most strongly of any thing ) have rooted his Church . Now I having shewed , that by your own confession , men may be of his Elect , that are out of your Church , I seemed to my selfe to have likewise proved , that there is no necessity of any Churches being their Director . I know you generally think this the more convenient way , to have left such a guide , that because otherwise Dominus non fuisset Discretus , or in Epictius his Phrase , Arrian . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , you conclude that he hath : but we ( though indeed in such cases where our 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 the common Notions concerning God , teach us that such a Thing were contrary to Gods maine Attributes to do , some of us conclude upon that ground , that this he hath not done ) in these cases which onely concerne convenience , of which we have much lesse certaintie , begin at the other end , and considering first what he hath done , conclude that to be sufficiently convenient , and so finding no infallible guide by him instituted , suppose it convenient that there should be none : Truely if convenience were the measure , and our Understandings the measurers , we should resolve that God hath made every Particular man , at least every Pious man Infallible , and so to need no outward guide , which yet it is plain that he hath not done . Though in my opinion , in some sence , he hath made every man ( who pleaseth ) Infallible , in respect of his journys end , though not of all Innes by the way , certaine to find Heaven though he may misse many Truthes in Divine matters : For the beliefe which God requires of being to be thought true of his word , and that man be ready to believe and obey what he saies , as soon as it shall appear to him that he hath said it , and every man being able ( according to his meanes ) to examine what he hath said ; It followes , unlesse God should damne a man for weaknesse of understanding , ( which were as strange , as if he should damne him for a weak sight , or a feeble arme ) that every man is Infallible in his way to Heaven , so he lay no blocks in it himself , ( at least is undoubtedly secur'd of any danger of Hell ) For if they neither desire to avoide the trouble of enquiry through unwillingness to find that to be true , which is contrary to what he now thinks , and so to hazard either the affection of deare Friends , or the favour of great Friends , or the feare of some other humane Inconvenience , as want of present meanes , Improbability to get more , or of that , disparagement so terrible to flesh and blood , of descending to confesse that they have so long erred , ( like Frobenius , qui potuisset vivere , nisi puduisset aegrotare , Eras . Ep. who might have lived , but that he was ashamed to confesse himself sick ) If I say none of these or the like things , either keep him from seeking what is Gods will , or from daring to professe it when he hath found it , then such an Error having no reference to the will , which is the onely fountaine of sin , cannot by a just God be punished as a sin , and the proofe of the necessity of an Infallible Director drawn from Gods care of his Church , for his Elects sake , is easily avoided .

But say you , if there be a director , it must be the Church , and againe , because you know that all congregations of Christians , pretend to that Title in some sence , ( as even the worst men call themselves by better Names then they deserve , as Aristotle saith , Rhetor. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) and I may mistake our enemies Camp for our friends , and serve against Christ , whilst I think I fight under his Banner ( though even then , I beleeve , I should have a share in that prayer of his , to whom none is denied , Father forgive them , for they know not what they doe ) unlesse you gave me some certaine marks to know the Church by ; you therefore say , what you have before said , that yours is it , because that alone pretends to Tradition , to which I answer , what I before answered , that the Greeks serve me to disprove the sufficiency of this Mark , who professe , that they hold the constant Tradition , and that under that Notion , they have both received what you deny , and not received what you propose .

Object . Let us consider in her Presence or Visibility , Authority , Power ; As for the first , her multitude and succession make the one , that she is ever accessible , ever knowne .

Resp. What you now say , is not to prove your Church a Directresse , but having ( as you think , and I think not ) proved that already , you now mean to shew , that she hath the Conditions requisite in a Directresse : But this I deny , for neither is her presence or Visibility , ( for all her multitude and succession ) such as were in a Directresse required : For she ( besides that she must bring notice and proofes with her , to prove that she is instituted by God to direct men , and those plain and evident , if she require meerly but our assent , but if she require us to assent Infallibly , then those Infallible , which yours cannot do ) must also be so visible , as to be known to all men , if not as a Directresse , at least as a Company of men , which yours sure was not to those Nations , which were lately discovered by Columbus : But if you except and say , she need onely be visible to all Christians , ( though this exception need a proofe ) yet even this Condition your Church hath not allwaies had , for I believe , to those Christians whom Xaverius found in the East-Indies , your Church had been as little visible , as to those Pagans whom Columbus discovered in the West : Besides beyond the Abissins , how farre Christian Religion may be propagated , and yet your Church unknown , who can tell ? Besides , even to most of them ( for any credible Testimony that appeares ) she may not be very visible . But above all , that reason being answered , upon which you conclude , that there is some Director , and that ground being taken away upon which you build , that yours is that , me thinks it will be unnecessary to dispute long upon the Conditions required to that , which hath no entity at all .

Object . For Authority , her very claime of Antiquity and Succession , to have been that Church which received her beginning from Christ and his Apostles , and never being all united under the universall government of ver fore-went it , giveth a great reverence to her among those who believe her , and amongst those who with indifferency seek to inform themselves , a great Prejudice above others . And if it be true , it carrieth an infinite Authority with it , of Bishops , Doctors , Martyrs , Saints , Miracles , Learning , Wisedome , Venerable Antiquity , and such like .

Resp. There is no Question , but any Church , true or false , which claimes to have ever kept the Apostles Doctrines uncorrupted , and is infallibly believed to have done so , must among those Christians who thus beleeve , have even equall Authority with the Apostles . But me thinks that this claime before proofe , should to others be any prejudice for her , ( especially to those who have great Arguments against her ) is unreasonable , and if after consideration it appears otherwise , she hath then onely helpt to weaken her Testimony , and hath destroyed her Infallible Authority in any thing else .

Object . There remaineth Power , which no man can doubt but he hath given it most ample , who considereth his words so often repeated to his Apostles : But abstracting from that , who doth not see that the Church hath the nature and proportion of ones Country to every one . As in a mans Country he hath Father and Mother , Brothers , Sisters , Kinsfolkes , and Allies , Neighbours and Country-men , ( anciently called Cives and Concives ) and of these are made his Country ; So in the Church finds he in way to spirituall Instruction , and Education , all these digrees nearer and further off , till he come unto that furthermost of Christ his Vicar : and as he in his Country finds Bearing , Breeding , Settling in Estates and Fortunes , and lastly , Protection and Security ; So likewise in the way of Christianity , doth he find this much more fully in the Church , So that if it be true , that a man oweth more to his Master then to his Father , Bene esse is better then esse ; certainly a man also ( as farr as Church and Country can be separated ) must owe more to the Church , then to his very Country ; Wherefore the Power which the Church hath to Command and instruct , is greater then the Power of the Temporall Community , of which he is part .

Resp. I wish you would have set down these words of Christ , so often repeated to his Apostles , in which Power to the Church ( I mean such a one as yours pretends ) is undoubtedly given ; For my Part , Truely I remember none ; For I suppose not that the Power given to the Apostles can reasonably be claimed by any Society of men now , no not though you should extend the Definition as largely as Erasmus , ( who saies Ecclesiam voco totius Populi Christiani concensum , I call the Church , the Consent of the whole Christian People ) unlesse that be meant too in all Ages , and so the Apostles would come in ; They were so signed , and sealed to ( as I may say ) from Heaven , by having most conversed with Christ , and been most beloved by him , and chosen especially to teach the World his Will , that it is impossible any men could be indeed Christians , and not receive their Doctrine , as that of Christ , without any other Proofe , but there is no other Church that hath such a Priviledge , The Power of proposing she hath , and so have you , and without Question , if you can convince any Christian that what you said , Christ said first , he is bound both to believe and obey it , and againe let all Churches joyne in proposall , yet till he be so convinced , ( unlesse his own fault hinder it ) it binds him not , neither is it sufficiently proposed , allowing it true , which it is not alwaies necessary that it should be , although so attested . For as a Naturall Foole is not bound to obey any Doctrine or Precept , taught or imposed by God himself , because his understanding cannot discover it to be so : so in my opinion , whose understanding soever is not convinc'd of the same , ( how plain soever to others the thing be ) he is for as much as concernes this point , in the state of a Naturall Foole , and no more to be condemned .

Neither see I what you prove out of the Proportion between the Church , and every mans Country , ( for if any Church be intended by God to be so our Director , that her propositions are to be received , because they are hers , then indeed we owe her much more obedience then to our Country , which if it should require of us to believe an opinion true , because that hath defined it , I believe no man would obey , and he who should press us to it , would be accounted so mad , that we should send him , not to a Doctor of Divinity , but to a Doctor of Physick , to be confuted .

And that any Church is so intended , appeares not at all by this proposition , since the same is even amongst the Church of the Turkes , which is Ecclesia malignantium , for there they find their Metaphoricall Fathers , Mothers , Brothers , Sisters , Kinsfolks , Allies , Neighbours , ( which all Hereticks do too among themselves ) all these degrees neerer and further of , till at last they come to that furthermost , of being united under the Universall Government of Mahomets Vicar , the Mufty . But to them you would say , that this proves not Truth , but at most Concord , and that is Factio inter Malos , which is Amicitia inter Bonos , Salust . therefore the same we answer you , since Pyrats , and Theeves , have as strict bonds among themselves , as the honestest persons , and often gerater conspiracies , and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , to destroy these , then they make to defend themselves . And whereas you say , that we owe more gratitude and obedience to the Church , then to our Country , I have told you , that this may be true without owing obedience to all she teaches ; But yet even this in some sence is True ; To the generall Tradition of Christians of the first Ages who lived with the Apostles , and could not in any likelyhood but know their writings ; I owe the knowledge of the Scripture , and to that , the knowledge of Gods will , and to that , Heaven , if I conforme carefully to it both my Life and my Beliefe ; and to the Church in this sence , I owe both as much gratitude as you please , and believe whatsoever this , as generally , witnesseth to have received from the Apostles : But this concerning any present Church , doth as little concerne your present purpose : For let us mean by the Church , that company of men which hath kept Tradition wholly uncorrupted , ( and suppose there is such a one ) yet to know that she hath done so , I must examine her Doctrine ; and compare it either with Scripture , or the first Antiquity , and so rather receive her for it , then it for her : Besides , that the whole Church teaches nothing , and if she did , yet by the same waies from any single learned Orthodox man , I may receive the same instruction , to whose commands neverthelesse ( except when he delivers Gods ) I owe no obedience .

Thus too , when the Orthodox company commands as they are Orthodox , that is something of the will of God , then they are to be obeyed , and so am I , and so againe , when the chosen governours for that purpose , command indifferent Things , but if they exceed their Commission in commanding , no man is longer bound to obey , no more then if a Mayor of a Town should command the People to make his Hay , they were bound to obedience , since commanding more then his Magistracy authorizeth him , he in that case is no Magisttate .

Object . This Church can satisfie both learned and unlearned . For in matters of Faith , above the reach of learning , whose spring is from what Christ and his Apostles taught , what learned man can refuse in his inmost soule , to bow to that which is testified by so great a multitude to have come from Christ ? and what unlearned man can require more for his faith , then to be taught by a Mistresse of so many prerogaives and advantages above all others .

Resp. The learned cannot reasonablie be satisfied with this ( especiallie so farre forth as to beleeve it infalliblie true . ) First , because they see great multitudes have and doe testifie contrarie things . Secondlie , because they must have observed with Salmeron , Tom. 13. Pag 468. that a multitude of some opinion may proceed from some one Doctor , especiallie , if he be Illustrious ; and some againe , taken with a pious and an humble feare , chuse rather against their mind , to approve what hath come from others , then to bring forth any new thing out of their own understanding , least they may seem to bring some thing unwonted into the Church . This they must needs see , may bring an undelivered opinion to be generall , and then the generallitie may bring it to be thought to come from Tradition , according to Tertullians rule , Quod apud multas ecclesias unum invenitur , non est erratum sed Traditum , and that of Saint Austine , that of whatsoever no beginning is known , and yet is generall , is to be beleeved to have its originall from the Apostles . By this way ( supposing that all your Church did witnesse , all their doctrines to have had such a lineall succession , which they know to be false ) they see , that opinions falslie and illogicallie deduct from true Traditions , may be equallie beleeved to be such themselves , Vincentius Lirinensis allowing the following Church to give light to the former , which they might mistake in doing , at least , the certaintie of her Illustrations cannot have their force from Tradition : By this way they see , that in time , such doctrines may come to have such a generall attestation , which had their first spring from Scripture mis-interpreted , either by publicke mistakes , or by Councels mislead , either by feare , error , or partialitie , and what proceeded either from consent , or definition , may seem to have been deduct from Tradition : In this they will be confirmed , by seeing plainlie , that more is now required to be beleeved by the Church of Rome , then in all times hath been , that now among you contrarie parties urge for or , expect a generall Councell to end questions , concerning which , neither side claimes any continued verball Tradition , and that the greatest part are ready to receive such a definition , in as high a degree , as any Tradition whatsoever ; They will be also confirmed by your denying Infallibilitie to a Councell , how generall soever , unapproved by the Pope , by seeing , that if ( as you say ) no man can be ignorant what he was taught when he was a childe , as the ground and substance of his hopes for all eternitie , and if in this , all your Religion were comprised ( or else to what purpose say you this ) then no man bred in the Orthodox Church could erre , or ever have erred in matter of Faith , without knowing that he had departed from the very Basis of Christianitie , and for Instructions in these points , not onely all Authors , as Commenters upon Scripture , and the like , were wholly uselesse , but it were also a vaine thing , to goe for instruction even to Christs Vicar , and S. Hierome might have resolved his own question , about the 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , every whit as well as Damasus , or Saint Peter himselfe : And for the same reason , it were wholly impossible , that at the same time the Popes , and most notable , and most pious , and most learned Papists living , should have justified , and applauded Erasmus for the same workes ( the one by his printed Diplomas , and the rest by their Letters ) for which , at the same instant , the greatest part of the Monkes counted and proclaimed him a more pestilent Heretick then Luther , if they had all weighed heresie in the same ballance , and more impossible if in yours ; which the learned will yet lesse approve of , when they see how soon the worse opinion , and lesser authoritie may prevaile , as how that of the Monkes hath done against that of the Popes , and Bishops , and that so much , that Erasmus is now generallie disavowed as no Catholicke , and given to us ( whom wee accept as a great present ) that Bellarmine will allow him to be but halfe a Christian , and Cardinall Perron ( which I am sorry for ) gives a censure upon him , which would better have become the pen of a Latomus , a Bedda , a Stunica , or an Egmundane , then of so learned and judicious a Prelate .

Now for the Ignorant , I am sure you will never be able to prove infalliblie to them , that your Church hath any prerogatives above others ; the ordinarie way cannot be taken with them , because they not understanding the languages , in which the Fathers and Councels are written , cannot be press'd by what they cannot construe , and your way as little , because they are not more ( though totallie ) ignorant of the Authors of past Ages , then they are of the state , opinions , and claimes of the present time ; so that I know not how you can attempt them , if they have but a moderate understanding to their no knowledge .

Object . The body of our Position shoots forth the branches of divers Questions , or rather the Solutions of them : And first , how it happened , that divers Heretickes pretended to Tradition , as the Chiliasts , Gnosticks , Carpocratians , and divers others , yet they with their Traditions have been rejected , and the Church onely left in claime of Tradition ; For if we looke into what Catholicke Tradition is ; and what the Hereticks pretended , the question will remaine voided . For the Catholicke Church cals Tradition , that Doctrine , which was publiquely delivered , and the Hereticks called Tradition , a kinde of secret Doctrine , either gathered out of private conversation with the Apostles , or rather pretended , that the Apostles , besides what they publiquely taught the world , had another mysticall way , proper to Schollers , more endeared , which came not to publique view , whereas the force and energie of a Tradition , residing in the multitude of hearers , and being planted in the perpetuall life and actions of Christians , it must have such a publicity , that it cannot be unknown amongst them .

Resp. Of the Carpocratians and Gnosticks , I have spoke before , but sure for the Chiliasts this is onely said and not proved : Howsoever this undeniablie appeares , that either Pappias and Irenaeus thought not this Tradition to have come such a way as you speake of , or else they thought it no hereticall way , but such a one , as was ( at least reasonablie ) to be assented to ; and both what was the way by which Traditions ought to come , and by which this came they were more likely to know , then those of following ages ; which proves , that this Objection ( as much as concernes them especiallie ) remaines still so strong , that ( in spire of Fevardentius ) it will be better to answer it , Scalpello quam Calamo , with a Pen-knife then with a Pen , and no Confuter will serve for it , but an Expurgatory Index , no non si tuus afforet Hector , if Cardinall Perron were alive .

I must by the way take notice of what yon say here , that Tradition must have such a Publicity as cannot be unknown among Christians , and desire you to agree this with what you say in the next Paragraph , that the Apostles may not have preached in some Countries some Doctrines , which we now are bound to receive as Traditions , for sure those Doctrines were then unknown among many Christians ; and if they had been necess●ry , sure the Apostles would no where have forgot ( with so good a Prompter as the Holy Ghost ) to have taught them ; If they were not then necessary , how have they grown to be so since ? Besides , I appeal to your Conscience , whether it appear that the doctrine of the Exchequer of Superabundant merits , of which the Pope is Lord Treasurer , and by vertue of which he dispenseth his pardons to all the Soules in Purgatory , appear to have been known even to any of the best Christians , and whether if it had been known to them as a Tradition , ( being a Doctrine which necessitates at least Wisdome and Charity , a continuall practice of sueing for them , and of giving them ) it were possible , that of what they knew , such infinite Volumes of Authors should make no mention .

Object . Suppose some private Doctrine of an Apostle to some Disciple should be published , and recorded by that Disciple , and some others , this might well be a Truth , but never obtain the force of a Catholique Position , that is , such as it would be a damnation to reject , because the descent from the Apostle is not notorious , and fit to sway the body of the whole Church .

Resp. I confesse , that to have been no more generally delivered , will prove that the Apostles thought not such a Doctrine necessary , else their Charity would not have suffered them to have so much concealed it , but yet to any such Doctrine , it is impossible that any Christian , who believes the testimony , that it came from the Apostles , should deny his assent , because it were to deny the Authority , upon which all the rest is grounded ; for the Church pretends to her Authority from them , and not they from her , and howsoever , such a Doctrine ( although not necessary ) could not be damnable as you make this : Besides here will first arise a Question not easie to be decided , how great a multitude of Witnesses will serve to be notorious , and fit to sway the body of the Church , especially so many having not for a long , while been thought fit even by Catholiques , though attesting doctrines since received by you all , and considering that multitude of your Church , which believe the immaculate Conception in as high a degree , as it is possible without excommunicating the deniers , who either walk not by that which you count the onely Catholique Rule , or else claime such a Tradition , who yet are not thought fit to sway the rest .

Secondly , I pray observe how easie it was for the two first Ages , at least the chiefe of them , and all that are extant , to have given assent to Traditions so unsufficiently testified , or to have mistaken Doctrines under that notion , ( for so they did to this of the Chiliasts ) and then after for it to spread till it were generall , and last as long as men last upon their authority , and when once it is so spread , how shall we then discover how small an Originall it had , when peradventure the head and spring of it will be as hard to find , as that of Nilus , so that the greatest part of what you receive , might possibly appear to be no certainer , nor better built , if we could digg to the foundation : Wherefore , since the delivery of a Tradition by subsequent Ages hath its validity onely from the authority of the first , me thinks you should either think that they received none but upon better grounds , or else think these grounds good .

Thirdly , I know not why you resolve this opinion of the Chiliasts , to have had onely such a private Tradition , for though they name John the Disciple , and mention certaine Priests who heard it from him , yet they deny not a more general delivery of it , but peradventure least men might think that the generall opinion ( that it came from the Apostles ) might arise from places of Scripture , ( which fallacie , their testimony when not so fully expressed , was still in danger of concerning any point , but that these books were written by these men ) they therefore thought it fit to name to us their witnesses , that it came from Christs owne mouth , and in what words : And if they had done so much on your side , for the differences between us , I believe you would now have few Protestant adversaries left , for you would have converted the greater part , and by that have been enabled to burn the smaller .

Object . The second Question may be , How it cometh to passe , that some things , which at first bindes not the Churches beliefe , afterwards commeth to bind it ? For if it were ever a Tradition , it ever must needs be publique , and ever bind the Church , and if once it were not , it appears not how ever it could come to be , for if this age for example have it not , how can it deliver it to the next that followeth ? But if we consider that the scope of Christian Doctrine being great , and the Apostles preaching in so great varieties of Countries , it might happen some point in one Country might be lesse understood , or peradventure not preacht , which in another was often preacht , and well both understood and retained , we may easily free our selves from these brambles : For the Spirit of Tradition residing in this , that the testimony be exceptione majus , and beyond all danger of deceit . It is not necessary to the efficaciousnesse of Tradition , that the whole vniversall Church should be witnesse to such a truth , but so great a part as could be a warrant against mistaking ; so that if all the Churches of Asia , Greece , or Affrick , or Aegypt , should constantly affirm such a Tradition to have been delivered them from the Apostles , it were enough to make a Doctrine exceptione majorem : Whence it ensueth , that if in a meeting of the vniversall Church it were found , that such a part hath such a Tradition concerning some matter , whereof the rest had either no understanding , or no certainly , such a Doctrine would passe into a necessary bond of Faith in the whole Church .

Resp. Your sword is so sharp , and your shield so weak , that I can hardly believe they came out of the same forge , but when I observe how much you have a better right hand then a left , and that not onely you have raised an objection which you cannot lay , but your answer to it multiplies more , I cannot but compare you to him in Lucian , Philos. who travelling with a Magician that had no servant , and instead of one was daily wont to say to a Pestle , Pestle be thou a man , and it would be so , and when his occasions were served , would bid it return to be a Pestle , and was obeyed , thought one time to imitate the Magitian , he being abroad , and made indeed the Pestle a man , and draw water , but could not make it return to the former state , but it continued still to draw , wherefore angry and afraid , he took up an axe and clove the Pestle-man in two , whereupon 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , in stead of one water-drawer there lept up two : For first I pray consider , what could you have found more certaine to destroy all , which you had before laboured to settle , about the Infallibilitie of your Tradition , then this distincton of Exceptione Major , since , if not a generall one , but one which seemed such , were required , how easie was it for false opinions to get in , under that colour , testified but by a few reputed honest men , and so received by , and transmitted from others of great and generall authoritie . Secondlie , how could you have found a better way to answer your owne Objection against the Chiliasts Tradition , for want of being sufficientlie publique , since if that had not seemed to them to have had this condition ( I mean , if they had thought they should for this cause have excepted against it ) it had been impossible these Saints should have received it , and concerning the publicitie of it , and the number and authoritie of the deliverers , they must of necessitie have been the best Judges who then lived , and who were the more considerable Doctors of the most considerable Ages : so that you must either confesse , that a Tradition bindes not unlesse indeed generall , or confesse that this doth , supposing this not to have been generall , which you cannot prove .

Object . A likely example of this may he drawn from the Canonicall Bookes .

Resp. I deny it to be now necessarie to Salvation , to admit of any Bookes for Canonicall , which it was lawfull for Christians in past ages to doubt of , and which had no generall Tradition ; and againe , this answer helpes against your selfe : for it is plaine by Saint Hieromes Testimonie , that the Roman Church received not the Epistle to the Hebrewes , which the Easterne Churches received ( whose Testimonie , according to your grounds , she then should have beleeved to be beyond exception ) and it is plaine by Perrons Testimonie , that the Easterne Churches received not the Macchabees , when he saies , the Church of Rome did . Now it is plaine , that the Receivers pretended to Tradition , because nothing else could make a booke thought Canonicall , whereas other opinions might be brought in by a false Interpretation of Scriptures , and after being spread , might be thought to come from Tradition : So that according to your grounds and these testimonies , not onely the Westerne Church ought to have beleeved the Easterne about the Epistle to the Hebrewes , and the Easterne the Westerne about the Macchabees , but also they ought to have required this assent from each other , which they not doing ( as they would have done , if they had thought their testimonie so valid as you doe ) it followes , that you doe differ from the Churches of the fifth and sixth age , about what is exceptione majus , you thinking that to be so , which they thought not , and againe , from all the extant Doctors of the two first ages , you thinking that not so , which they thought was , as also those two times agreed about it , as little with each other , as you with them both .

Object . The third question may be , how Christian Religion ( consisting of so many points ) is possible to be kept uncorrupted by Tradition , which depending upon Memory , and our memory being so fraile , it seemeth , cannot without manifest miracle conserve so great a diversity of points unchanged for so many ages . But if we consider , that Faith is a Science , a thing , whose parts are so connexed , that if one be false , all must needs be false , we shall easily see , that contrarily , the multitude of divers points is a conservation , the one to the right , the other wherein we doubt .

Resp. As in Judges , when a battell was to be fought between the children of Israel and the Midianites , the Midianites destroyed each other , and left nothing to doe for Israel , but onely to pursue them : so truly , your Objections worke so strongly upon your own Party , that I have nothing left me to presse , and much to applaud : For for this very reason , I beleeve , that all necessarie points were given in writing , and onely the witnessing , that these were the Apostles writings , was left to Tradition , which was both much lesse subject to error ( as being but one point , and that a matter of fact ) and could no other way be done , because no writing could have witnessed for it selfe so sufficientlie , that we should have had reason to have belleved it upon no other certificates , and to this your answer seemes to me no way satisfactorie , since , first , I deny Faith to be a Science , it being nothing but an assent to Gods Revelations , neither are those so connexed as you liberallie affirme , and sparinglie prove ; Nay , suppose they were , yet though errors would be the lesse likely to enter , yet when any one , by any meanes were got in ' then this connexion would be a ready way to helpe it to let in all its fellowes . Besides , those opinions which may be superinduct as Traditions , which such a connexion could not hinder , if they were not contrarie to the true ones ; and of this sort is chiefly our question .

That therefore you are no better able to wind your selfe out of this inextricable Labyrinth , is no wonder to me , and no disgrace to you , since a man may as well be good Logician , though he cannot solve an unsolvable question , as he may be exceedinglie skilled in Physick , and yet not able to cure an incurable disease ; Besides , that these Objections arose so at the first sight , out of what was to be considered , that it was as impossible for to avoid them , as to answer them .

Object Let us consider in constant Nations , their language , their habits , &c. how long they continue among them .

Truly there is no Nation that I know , whose language hath not , Resp. and doth not daily palpablie suffer change . Consider , that of these English hourely denizoning words of all kinde of languages , these of the Spaniards , Italians , and French , almost made up out of Latine , and that of the ancient Greekes , unknown to those of this Age , unlesse they learn it at Schoole : Habits indeed some Nations alter lesse , but some daily , and none change not sometimes : But this is little to the purpose , since those Nations which have remained very constant in things , which no considerable cause appeared to them why they should alter , may yet have received new opinions ( especially if not contradicting the old ) taught them by such , in whom they wholly relied , ( as most go more hood-winkt in these matters , then in those which are indifferent , out of a Vitious humility ) or proved by Arguments which perswaded . For when the reasons are probable ( as they may be for a falshood ) the Persons pressing them , in themselves of authority ( as they may be and yet erre ) and the people to whom they are prest , full of esteeme of their Teachers , then meet the three waies of working perswasion which Aristotle mentions , whereof 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : Especially when besides all these , the rewards of beliefe proposed , are more then extraordinary , as also the danger of disbeliefe . Wherefore I count it by no meanes reasonable , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , like sheep ( without more examination ) to walk in the steps of those , who have gone before us .

Object . See that forlorn Nation of the Jews , how constantly it maintaineth the Scripture , and how obstinately their Errors .

Resp. Truely I thank you Sir for this example , since it puts me in mind of an Objection , which else I. had utterly forgot : Many of those errors which they hold , ( as the Cabala and others ) I pray , upon what other ground hold they them then this , that they have been taught . Moses delivered them to their Fathers , as unwritten Traditions , and that under that Notion they have descended : Now may not they defend themselves in them , by the very same Arguments which you use in this Treatise for the Church of Rome : May not they say that they have received them from their Fathers , who received them from theirs , who must either have joyned in mistaking their Ancestors , or in intending to deceive their Posterity , whereof neither is credible : May not they say , what is said of these last Ages , may be said upwards and upwards , till they come to that , wherein their Fathers received these Doctrines from Moses , who was 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , as worthy of credit in the delivery of these , as in that of the ten Commandements , and their Fathers witnesses beyond exception , that these Doctrines be delivered : May they not ask you in what year or age , these errors entered among them , and say it is evidently true , that then their whole Church conspired to tell a lie . May they not bid you besides consider the Notoriousnesse of the lie ? such as he is very rarely found , who is so wicked as to venture upon , besides the greatness of the subject and the damage ensuing to himself and his dearest Pledges : May they not adde , that the multitude of their Church is so dispersed through so many Countries and Languages , that it is impossible they should agree ; together , upon a false determination , to affirm a falshood for a truth , no Interest being able to be common to them all to produce such an effect : This they may say , and if they do , and retort your own words upon your self , I know not truely what new ones you will find to answer them in , unlesse you change the whole course you now steere , and come about the same way which I now use to you , that is , shewing by what waies such an opinion may have spread among them , although not at first received , and proving out of their owne Authors , that this hath not been alwaies held a Tradition among them , though now so accounted , which is sometimes ( as I remember ) your owne Galatinus his way , and the best that is : But if to that they should againe reply out of your own words ( the Names onely changed ) that if what Moses delivered were certainely true , and what he delivered be to be seen in what they beleeved who heard him , and so till now , it is evident , that they who seek for truth in learned discourses , must needs forego the most certaine and easie way of attaining what they aime at : That Jew , who should retort this , and much more of this kind upon you , and keep you to Tradition , and make their present Tradition ( upon your grounds ) the Judge of that , I am of opinion , would make you as silent , as if ( according to the Proverb ) you had seen a Wolf first , or were a Pithagoricall-Freshman , and you would wish you had never put into an enemies hand such a weapon against your self , as this present discourse : So that in Anna Commenas Phrase 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , you have digged a ditch on either side of your selfe : For either you must grant these Arguments not to be sufficient for your Party , or you must allow them to be sufficient for a Jew .

Object . Wheresoever Christians labour to convert Idolaters , they find the onely Argument for their errors that they received them from their forefathers : The King of Socotora thinking to please the Portugalls by reducing a Nation that had the Names of Christians to true Christianity , he found them obstinately protest to him , that they would sooner loose their lives , then part with the Religion their Ancestors had left them .

Resp. This is no newes to me who lived seven yeares in Ireland , where , this is all the reason the Vulgar either have or give for their Religion , and it is the lesse strange , when I remember Aristotle's Ethicks , where he tells us of one , who defended the beating of his Father , thus , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , because it had been the lineall custome of his Familie to do so . Yet for all this , that those who earnestly desire to keep the Religion of their Forefathers , and think they have done it , may yet be deceived , may appear to a Christian by the example of the Jews , and to any Romanist , by the example of the Grecians .

To your example of the answer to the King of Socotora , I answer ,

That either those heterodox Christians had been at first convened by Hereticks , or by Catholiques ; If by Catholiques , ( and your Church be that , and your grounds be hers ) then it is plaine , that men may grow in●● great error , who hold fast , as they think upon Tradition , and may swerve from that Rule , whilst they think they walk by it : If by Hereticks , then it seemes Catholiques ( as you call them ) are not the onely Religion that have converted Nations , and that note of the Church which isso daily and so eagerly prest , appeares common to more then it : And so you may take which horne of my Dilemma you please .

Object . To come at length to give an answer to him that demands a guide at my hands , I remit him to the moderne Visibe Church of Rome , that is , her who is in an externe sensible communion with the externe sensible Clergie of Rome , and the externe sensible Head , and Pastor of that Church . If he ask me , how he shall know her , I must counter interrogate him , who he is . Is he an ignorant man ? is he unlearned , yet of good understanding in the World ? Is he a Scholer , and what Scholer ? A Grammarian , whose understanding hath no other help then that of Languages ? Is he a Philosopher ? Is he a Divine ? ( I mean an Academicall one , for a true Divine is to teach not to ask this Question ) Is he a Statesman ? For he that can think one answer can , or ought to be made to all these , may likewise expect , that one cause may produce all effects : Yet I deny not but all must have the same guide , though they are to be assured of that guide in divers manners .

Resp. I confesse Sir , you come to the Demander but at length , for till I had read further , I had not known that your Treatise was intended for an answer to mine , if I had not been told so when it was given me . For hitherto , as Baash a King of Israel , in the Chronicles , when he came against Judah , assail'd not their Cities , but built Ramoth against them , so you have not attempted to destroy what I had said ; but raised another consideration , a City , a Ramoth of your own ; against which I have brought such battery , as seemes to me sufficient to demollish it .

Now for your directions to a guide , I answer , supposing that there is one , and that this you speak of be now it , ( for you will not say she alwaies is ) and not to quarrell with you for giving me an accidentall and mutable guide , that being a thing which you suppose so necessary to be alwaies known , I will joyn issue upon this with you , whether she be to be known to be a guide by any Infallible Notes , for such are required by reason to beget such an assent , as is required by you , all other being tearmed by your selves , not Faith , but Opinion . To your Contra-interrogation therefore who I am , that is , in whose Name I speak , I answer and professe my self one of the notably ignorant , but though I act my own part onely , when I speak in his person , yet for once I will adventure to answer you , in the name of the severall persons you speak of , and will shew , that none of them have sufficient cause to receive the guide which you propose upon the reasons which you alleadge .

Object . If the ignorant man speaketh , I will shew him in the Church of God decencie , and Majestie of ceremonies , above all other Sects and Religions , whereby dull capacities are sweetly ensnared to beleeve the truth they heare , from those whom they see to have the outward signes of Vertue and Devotion .

Resp. To this I answer , in the ignorant mans person ( that is in my own ) thus , I for my part , neither see what you say you shew me , ( for in all decency and Majestie of ceremonies , the Kings Chappell seems to me to equall the Queens , and our Cathedrall Churches , much to surpasse your cock-lofts ) and if I did , yet the decency of them would not prove your Church to be a good guide , so well as a good mistresse of ceremonies , and if by their majestie you mean their Magnificence , then that would onely prove her rich and not orthodox , since this is such a note , that ( her doctrine remaining as true as it is ) one persecution would serve to destroy it , and with it , all that meanes which you allow the Ignorant to find his guide by ; And whereas you say , that dull capacities are by this sweetly ensnared to beleeve the Truth ; I answer , that by the same meanes they may be as sweetly , and as easily ensnared to beleeve falshoods , unlesse you could shew that Majestie and Truth are inseparable Companions .

Object . If the unlearned ask , I shew him the claime of Antiquity , the multitude , the advantages of Sanctity , and Learning , how the World was once of this accord , and those who opposed , when they first parted , first began the contrary Sects , how the points of difference be such , as on the Catholique side help devotion , and on the contrary side diminish the same , and such like sensible differences , which will clearly shew an advantage on the Catholiques side , which is the proportionall motive to his understanding .

Resp. I see indeed you claime Antiquitie , but do you think it reasonable that I should take your word . Our Divines ( whom because I know more , I have more cause to trust then you , in a case of which I my self can take no cognizance ) absolutely deny it , and to me you cannot disprove them , unlesse I had at least some learning to enable me to judge , who quotes that trulie which now I cannot construe : For multitude , I find not what that proves , it may work upon my feare rather then upon my assent , yet I am told , that many more Christians disagree from your Church in this maine Question of her being a guide , then she consists of ; that the Turks are more then both , and the Pagans more then all three , so that if they relate the state of the world aright , multitude must rather seem an argument against truth then for it : And forasmuch as I can see my self , your Religion is the least in this Kingdome , and I know no other : For the advantages of sanctitie and learning , to the first I answer , that since in a Countrie where the State is their adversarie , and where for feare of scandale , and hope of gaining numbers to their Church , ( to help both to the suretie and ornament of it ) by commending their Doctrine by their lives , in likelyhood they are more vigilant against vice , then where they have no such thornes against their brests to keep them awak , even here I can find no such advantage as you pretend , I have no cause to guesse that I should find it where the incitement of emulation and such like , are absent , and the charmes of greatnesse , wealth , power , and by consequence likelyhood of impunity are present : For the advantage of learning , I answer , that speaking to me with the fore-knowledge of my being unlearned , I wonder you should make use of such a motive , which ( how true soever it were in it self ) I am not capable of discerning to be so , any more then a blind man is likely to assent to an argument drawn from Colours , of which he could have no possible notion . Now whereas you say that the world was once of this accord , it is more then I know : we are told that whole Churches in the East , had long denied this , when Luther first left you , and howsoever , that it could not be brought in time by arts , propt by power to accord in an error , is more then you have proved . Whereas you say , that those , who opposed this , when they first parted , first began the contrary Sects : I answer , that our men pretend that they began no new Doctrine , but onely scoured off the rust which time and worldly ends in some , and negligence in others , had suffered to grow on . Which Question againe remaines to be tried , ( if you refuse Scripture , as your side useth to do ) by a Jury of such who are for the most part untranslated , or those which are by Parties ) and whose language I cannot spell , nor consequently determine by their evidence : Now whereas you say , that the points in controversie on your side help Devotion , and on ours diminish it , I wish you had instanced which , and wherein , for I for the most part see nothing towards it , they being meere speculative opinions , and not reduceable to life , as especially this whereof we most differ , which is your Churches being a generall guide : Those , which most may seem such , are either Confession , ( which yet we denie onely to be necessary , not profitable , if well used , which is practised by some of us , and recommended to all , and which as you have tempered it , making contrition sufficient for his salvation , who hath till his hour of death lived in all sin , and making attrition with absolution of the same force as contrition , and requiring to attrition , ( as I am told you do ) onely sorrow for sin , though arising from the feare of Hell , so some love of God being joyned to it , which none can want but an Infidell ) will not help Devotion much , but rather diminish it ) or Monastick life , ( which was grown into great excesse and disorder , which yet many wise and moderne Protestants think might as well have been reformed as the other parts of the Church , without totall obolition , and so upon this is left no Question ) or Fasting , ( which if you think Protestants are against , I pray read Bishop Andrews his Lent Sermons , and which if it be not so much used among us as it should , is not so much the fault of the Religion , as of the Men ) and all these things considered , I find none of your motives to shew a maine advantage on your side , and therefore I have yet no cause to leave my owne : And if in some of these things you should seeme to have more Truth then we , yet that would not free you from having more error in other points then this comes to , much lesse from having any at all , without the beliefe of which , I should not be received among you , though I were willing to come : And this lieth upon you to prove , and that not by probable , but by infallible arguments , if you require ( as they say your side useth to do ) an assent of that Nature .

Object . To the Grammarian I will give two Memorandums ; first , that seeing the Catholick's were first in possession both of the Scriptures , and the Interpretations : The adverse part is bound to bring such places as can receive no probable Exposition by the Catholickes . For who knoweth not , that is conversant in Criticks , how many obscure and difficult places occurre in most plaine Authors , and the Scripture of all Bookes ( the greater part of the men that wrote them , especially the New Testament , being not eloquent , and writing not in their native Tongue ) for the most part , are subject to much impropriety : The other Memorandum is , that , to prove a Catholique point by Scripture , it is sufficient , that the place brought , beare the Exposition the Catholique giveth , and if it be the more probable by the very letter , it is an evincent place . The reason is , because the question being of a Christian law , the Axiome of the Jurists taketh place , that Consuetudo optima Interpres Legis , so that if it be manifest , that Christian practise ( which was before the controversie ) bee for the one sence , and the words be tolerable , no force of Grammer can prevaile to equalize this advantage : The Grammarian therefore , who will observe these Rules , I turne him loose to the Scriptures and Fathers , to seeke there what is the Faith of Christ and proprieties of her Church to know her by .

Resp. To your first Memorandum , I answer , that you have grounded it wholly upon begging the question : for if those of your Religion had first been in possession of the Scriptures , then the Christians had been of it in the Apostles times , which if you could prove , you would need to prove no more , but all would easilie follow : and then for your consequence , that is equallie false , for though I confesse , to make any Doctrine a point of Faith , it is required , that the place be as plaine as you please , yet to the making it the more probable opinion ( and consequentlie excluding the contrarie from being necessarie ) so much is not required . The greatest cause of the obscuritie of those bookes , in which Criticks are conversant , is the negligence and ignorance of Transcribers , so that some Authors would scarce know their own Bookes , if they were revived , whereas the great care of Christians about so deare a pledge , hath much , if not wholly hindered , the same cause from perverting , and so obscuring Scripture : At least , if it have not , it seemes your Church is not so faithfull a Guardian of her deposit , as her deare friends ( moved by partiallitie or ends ) would make us beleeve : Besides , till now I ever thought , that Eloquence rather lead men to speake improperlie , then the want of it , since ignorant persons keepe themselves within the bounds of what preciselie they meane , whereas the eloquent wander into figures , which are so many , and have gotten such footing in language ( whilst in the search of significancie proprietie is lost ) that those , who use them , are obliged to those who will please to understand , because all they say may beare two sences , the one proper , the other improper : And though it be true , that they have over-flowne , even into the language of the ignorant , yet it is as true , that both they are much lesse used among these , and that they had not hence their beginning , but from Eloquence : And though the Apostles write not in their native Tongues , yet they write in an inspired language , so that they were not likely to commit , at least , any such soloecismes as should destroy the end of the Inspirer , which was , that they should be understood by it .

To your second Memorandum I answer , that since every man is free till some thing binds him , you ( who pretend , that we are bound to receive more doctrine as necessarie , then appeares to us to be so ) are in all reason to give us plainlie evincent proofe , that what you thus require , God requires too , for till then ( to returne you to another Axiome , for yours ) praesumitur pro libertate ; whereas wee ( the burden of the Negative proofe not lying upon us ) if we bring probable Arguments , we doe it ex abundanti , and bring more then we need to bring ; And whereas you stand upon Customes , having power in Law matters , I answer , that in all cases that is not of force , for we hold , that it must not prevaile against a Statute , which shewes , that they may be contradictorie , and as Nullum tempus occurrit Regi , is thought to be a good civill topicall Law , so me thinkes , Nullum tempus occurrit veritati , is a good publique divinitie Law , your owne Scripture too telling us , that Truth is stronger then the King ; Besides , where it is of force , it is in such cases as the law hath appointed that it should be so , and if you can prove out of Christs Law , that there it is so appointed to be in matters of Divinity , wee shall willinglie yeild , but seeing that our law , which allowes this force to custome , sets downe also in how long time it is , before it become of force , and I have cause to thinke , that Christ would have been 〈◊〉 carefull as our law , and have set down this too , if he had had any such meaning , and if it were setled to be a custome of such a standing ( as by Saint Austine sometimes is spoken of ) as that in no time it be known that ever it was otherwise ; in most of your affaires this would stead you a little , though one side have burnt the evidences of the other , to which in likeliehood you owe it , if this stead you in any ; of questions , whereof Scripture and Antiquitie are wholly silent , or meerly speculative , and unreducible unto act ( of which sort are the greatest between us ) or not concerning the lawfulnesse , but the necessity of an Action , to the first kind no ancient custome can belong , nor other to the others then a custome of Interpretation of some text concerning it , not enough to conclude upon ( besides , that it is not that which you speake of ) since daily your men differ , and defend their differing from all that went before them , about more then many texts , as Cajetane , Salmeron , and Maldonate shall beare me witnesse , unlesse , like Sampson , you may breake those Ropes by which others must be bound : And adding to all this , that our custome may serve to shew the meaning of the law , when our selves were Authors of it , though not when God is , and that our generall custome arguing our united consent ( which onely gives force to our lawes ) may be as fit to bind , as a law in civill cases , and yet not in divine , where the lawes proceed from a higher fountaine , that such a rule may be good in civill resolutions , which require but probable proofes , and yet not in divine ones , where ( according to the grounds of your Party , which requires an undoubting assent to her doctrines as infallible ) infallible proofes are necessary , especially this , like other Topycall arguments , having onely force caeteris paribus , and againe good where it is not so necessary , that the will of the Legislator be followed , as that peace and quiet be preserved , to which , all alterations , even to the better , are enemies , and yet not in these cases , where we are to prefer the will of our Law-maker before any humane convenience , or good , if the custome past unquestioned , when the Law was first promulgated , but not , if crept in after by negligence , or plainely appearing to have been brought in-by power , all this perswading me not to be so farr swaied by your Rules as you would have me , I suppose you have small hope , that not being so , I should find either in Scripture , or the first Antiquitie , either that Faith which your Church proposeth , or these properties of Christs Church , by which your Church proves , or rather strives to prove , that she it is : Give me leave besides to aske you one Question , and that is ; What we shall conclude when the Christian practice of severall places have ever differed ; as that of Greece from that of Rome , which it may also do in more places then we are acquainted with , the extent of Christianitie being unknown to us , as are the customes of some remote Christian Countries which we know .

Object . Of the Philosopher , I exact to goe like a Philosopher , and to search out the specificall differences of every Sect , and when he hath found them ( if any one but the Catholique hath any rule of faith and good life , which I remit to him to enquire ) but at least , when he hath found the Catholicks to be this claime of Tradition before declared , then if this doe not bring him as demonstratively as he knoweth any Conclusion in Philosophy , and Mathematicks , to the notice of this , is the onely true Church of Christ , for my part I shall quit him before God and Man .

Resp. I have examined the differences between all parts as you bid me , and find the Protestants to have a sufficient rule of Faith , and good life , yea such a one as by Master Knotts confession , ( Quem honoris causa nomino ) is as perfect as a writing can be : And since a writing may containe all Doctrines , and onely cannot give testimonie to it self , nor be 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , I have no reason to think it inferior to that of their adversaries : Your claime of Tradition I see plainely enough , and as plainely , that it is but a claime , many of your side overthrowing it , and others not of your owne , pretending to it : Bishop Fisher confesseth , that Scripture and Miracles brought in the Doctrine of Purgatory , and that againe the doctrine of Indulgences .

Erasmus , who though himself no Martyr , yet one who may passe for a Confessor , having suffered , and long by the Bigotts of both Parties , and a dear Friend both to Fisher , and his Colleague in Martyrdome , Sir Thomas Moore , ( who were the Deucalions of learning in this our Country ) makes yet a larger confession . Non obscurum est quot opiniones invectae sunt in orbem per homines , ad suum Quaestum callidos , conflictorum Miraculorum praesidio : These reasons alone ( allowing for brevities sake that I had no more ) would make me believe , not onely that what you say concludes not geometrically , but perswades not probably , and consequently , you by your promise have quitted me , which without it I doubt not but God would have done .

Object . The Divine , if he hath truly understood the Principles of Faith in the nature of a Divine , I mean Trinity , Incarnation , Redemption , Eucharist , Beatitude , the Creation and Dissolution of the World , and hath seen the exact conformity of the deepest Principles of Nature , with an unspeakable wisdome of the Contriver : If he doth not plainely confesse it was above the naure of man to frame the Catholique Religion , and seeth not that onely that is conformable to Nature , and it self , I say , he hath no ground sufficient to be of it .

Resp. Supposing the greatest part of what you say to be true , ( for I see not how a bare consideration even of these Doctrines will serve to prove them to come from Gods Revelation ) it might prove the Christian Religion against Pagans , but for yours against Protestants , I can draw out of it no Argument , which if upon your explanation , it appeares not to be through the default of the Lymbeck ( which I expect ) then the better I think of you , the worse I shall think of your cause , which would have ministred to so sharp an inquirer , better proofes , but that the old Axiom hindered it of , Nihil dat quod non habet : These Principles of Faith you speak of , are agreed on by both Parts , so out of their Truth , and the impossibility of their being forged , all the other points cannot be proved , which have upon them no necessarie dependance : and that your Religion is conformable to the deepest Principles of Nature , I am so farr from seeing , that I conceive your own opinion of Transubstantiation contradicts them almost all : Neither see I any such unspeakablenesse in the contriving , but that ordinary understandings by severall degrees , in a long tract of many ignorant negligent ages , egged on by ambition , cloakt over by hipocrisie , assisted by false miracles , and maintained by tyrannie , might easily both induce and establish them , so that though we have hitherto differed in our premisses , yet we meet in the Conclusion , which is , that I have no sufficient ground to be of your Religion .

Object . The Statesman , who is truely informed of the Church , how farr is really of Christs institution , and what either pious men have added , or peradventure ambitious men encroacht , if he doth not find a government of so high and exotick straine , that neither mans wit dare to have attempted it , neither mans power would possibly have effected it ; If he find no eminent helpes , and no disadvantage to the temporall government , I shall think there wants one starr in the heaven of the Church to direct these Sages to Bethlehem .

Resp. I answer now in the person of a Statesman , ( a part which but for this occasion , I am sure never to have acted ) Thus ,

I find so much policie in your Church , for most part really , and alwaies in voto , aimed at , although miss'd , that of no body of men did ever Aristotl's saying appear to me truer , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Among some men it is the end of the Lawes of their Common-wealth to be masters of their neighbours , but I find nothing in the government that should prove it , to proceed from a divine fountaine : In Ecclesiasticall Monarchie you have , so have also the Turks , the Pope pretends to a power of ending all controversies , so doth also their Mufty , and since mans wit attempted that , and mans power effected it , why it might not do the same in the West it did in the East , ( having the aide of some Tinsell-reasons , and some not wholly averse places of Scripture ) I cannot conceive : And what help is by your Church given to temporall government , I see not , unlesse giving the Pope power in temporalls , even to depose Kings be the helpes you mean : I know that some of your side are not concerned in this , but it is grown so generall , that though it be as yet no necessary part of your Religion , it is like to be shortly ; And truely throughout I find somethings which pious men have added , many , which ambitious men have encroacht , ( though of your Church I could not be informed in this , who hath not decided the Question ) but nothing that you alone hold instituted by Christ , and so to your Bethlehem , for want of a starr I am not likely to travell .

Object . Let every man consider which is the fit way for himself , and what in other matter of that way he accounteth evidence , and if there be no interest in his soule to make him loath to believe , what in another matter of the like nature he would not stick at , or heavie to practise what he seeth clearly enough ; I feare not his choice ; but if God send him time and meanes to prosecute his search any indifferent while , it is long agoe known of what Religion he is to be of .

Resp. I see yet no cause to think that your Religion is that which will be chosen , though we agree about the state , in which every enquirers soule ought to be , and in which those of few are ; I see all parents labour to fix opinions into their Children before they come to an age fit to judge of any greater doubts , then what may happen at span-counter , or cherry pit , and they againe seldome labour to set right what Education hath swaied : Neither are they wrought upon onely by prejudice , but some because of gaine like Demetrius , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , because by this craft they have their Gods , some because of temporall honour , like the Pharisees , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , least they be cast out of the Synagogue , loving the praise of men more then the praise of God ; some for feare like the High Priests , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , The Romans will come and take away both our Place and Nation ; Some because of the contradiction in the true Doctrine to their vaine or wicked desires , and so as some Disciples said , though somewhat upon another occasion , they account it , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , a hard saying , ( which made Epictetus say , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , indeed most Christians , who oppose any of Christs Commands , either for some of these reasons , dare not enquire whether Christ hath commanded them , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or enquiring find , but confesse it not , like those I spoke of before , who who 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : As Epictetus therefore saith , that we should enquire of God , who is our guide , as Travelers do of them they meet , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , having no desire to turne rather to the right hand then to the left , or againe , as we enquire of our eyes concerning what is to be seen , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , not perswading them to shew us one thing rather then another , so say I , ought we to goe to reason to find Gods will indifferent , which is Truth , or else we are likely very lazilie to seek what we are unwilling to find , and a probable argument for what we desire , will seem a Demonstration , and a Demonstration against it scarce a probable Argument . This I insist upon the more , because I think we have more cause to put you in mind of this , then you us , being too little practised on both parts , but not most by yours , whereof the greatest part commonly arrives not so farr , as at the fault of not seeking as they should , because commonly they have not leave given them to seek at all : for besides those who neglect to seek and may , no Bible being allowed by you to most , as no Smith was suffered by the Philistines in Israel , they fearing least the Hebrews should make them swords and speares , and you least they should make out of it , Arguments to perswade them to revolt from you . It is no wonder if your Church , be like the Congregation in the Acts , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the most part know not why they are come together . And truely if thus it were not , if all had liberty to seek Truth , and if all who sought it were indifferent in their seeking , and their judgments were absolutely unbridled by their affections , and unswaied by prejudice , I cannot perswade my self that so many could meet in thinking it fit to receive ( for so they seem to me ) such impossible Doctrines upon such improbable grounds , or to require a more then probable assent to but probable Doctrines , ( allowing them to be such ) and mould not see what is grounded upon them , ( if not impossible ) is at least much more improbable , then the Motives are probable , which kind of Assent cannot be expected by God , who as he requires onely 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , a reasonable service , so also a reasonable Faith .

Here followeth the Third Part of this Discourse , which is a Reply to such Answers as you have been pleased to make to a little of that little , which I at first opposed .

Resp. SPeaking of the Church Rome , as this day it is the true Church of God . I answer the doubter , she neither hath , nor can have any error which he need to feare , and be shie of .

The which two limitations I adde , for avoiding Questions impertinent unto our businesse .

The first , for those which concerneth the connexion of the Sca of Rome to the Universall .

The latter , to avoide such Questions as touch that point , whether the Church may erre in any Philosophicall or other such matter , which Questions are not so pertinent to our Matter .

Repl. Meaning by the true Church a companie of men , which hold all ( and no more ) that Christ taught ( for other interpretation , I beleeve , you will not give it ) then there is no question , but that not onely it hath no dangerous error , but none at all ; but that yours is such remaines unproved , and I beleeve , manet aeternumque manebit . For upon examination , I doubt not , it will appeare , that as I have read of a Cohort of Persians , which they called 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the Immortall Cohort , which all died in one battell ; so your infallibe Church will be found to abound in errors , and to belie equallie her title , being troubled her selfe , with what she undertakes to secure others from , like the Apothecary in Lucian , who undertaking to cure all men of the Cough , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , could himselfe scarce prescribe his Medicine for coughing the while . Besides , of what sort soever the error be , yet since the Condition of her Communion is to professe a beleife that she hath none , such a one as to them , who indeed beleeve so , would not be dangerous , yet to me , who cannot professe this but against my Conscience , how slight a one soever , may be an occasion of damnation : Againe , as to me your answer appeares false , so to those of your own side it will appeare hereticall ; to me it would give no satisfaction ( though you had proved what you but affirme ) because I desire to know an eternall , not a temporarie Guide , whereas if in your Church there should happen any Schisme , your answer then would give me no meanes to resolve my selfe which part were the guide ( that is the true Church ) without a new , and peradventure ( by the way ) an endlesse search . To them it will give scandall , because , first , you presuppose that we must know the Church by the Doctrine , and the Doctrine by the Church ; and secondlie , you imply a possibilitie , that the Church of Rome is now but by accident ( and may come not to be ) the true Church , and so all their confidence built upon her , as the Directresse of all Churches , and the eternall Admirall of Gods Fleet will appeare to have a very fallible foundation : Besides , in the cause of your Limitation I find more reason to commend your Discretion , then your Ingenuitie : for , for the first , if you had said , that the Universall Church of Christ must alwaies be connected to the particular one of Rome , which were to allow her Infallibilitie , you knew Antiquitie to have said much against you ; and besides , that this being not yet de fide among your selves ( nor evident in it selfe ) could not serve for a foundation to the whole bodie of our faith ; if you had absolutelie denied it , you knew , that you should incurre the displeasure of the most prevailing part of your own men , and that then the maine ( and to the Ignorant the onely visible ) signe would bee taken away . For the second , if you had affirmed , that the Church could erre in nothing , how slight soever , you would both have contradicted many of your own side , as Stapleton by name , and have asserted more then there were any colour of proofe for , and would have wanted this distinction to retire to : if you were confuted in any particular , if you had restrained her Infallibilitie to things necessarie , or weightie , or the like , then the question would again have risen , which are those ( for many errors , which we lay to her charge , concerne not things indeed necessarie , though she adde to the error , that other of thinking , that whatsoever she holds becomes necessarie by her holding it ) and then for all you have said , the doctrine of Purgatorie might be false , and yet she the Church , and that infallible , as farre as by your Doctrine her Infallibilitie had need to be extended .

Resp. Neither doe I remit the questioner to Scripture for his satisfaction , although I hold Scripture a very sufficient meanes to satisfie the man , who goeth to it with that preparation of understanding and will which is meet and required . Howsoever this I may answer for them who prove it out of Scripture , that because they dispute against them who admit of Scripture , and deny the authority of the Church , if they can convince it , they doe well , though they will not themselves admit generally of a proofe out of Scripture , as not able to prove every thing in foro contentioso .

Repl. If you hold Scripture to be so sufficient a mean , I wonder , Sir , why you thinke not fit to remit me to it , unlesse you thinke , that you have severall sufficient waies to prove so evident a Truth by , or thinke me not to come with meet preparation : Indeed if that be ( as among you it is counted ) to come resolved , not to judge of what the Roman Church holds , by what the Scriptures say , but to beleeve , that they say whatsoever she holds , then I confesse , I come not with the Conditions required ; but if it be to come desirous to finde the Truth , and to follow and professe it when I have found it , in spite of all temporall respects , which might either fright or allure me from so doing , then I suppose , that Charitie ( which hopeth all things ) will encline you to beleeve , that I come as I ought to come , untill some evident reason perswade you to the contrarie : That the Scripture cannot prove every thing in foro contentioso I beleeve , but all necessarie Truths , I beleeve it can ; for onely those , which it can , are such ; I denie not , but that a contentious person may denie a thing to be proved , when his own Conscience contradicts his words , but so he may Arguments drawn from any other ground as well as Scripture , so that if for that cause you refuse to admit of proofes from thence , you might as well for the same , refuse to admit of any by any other kinde of Arguments : And certainlie , if the Scriptures ( I meane the plaine places of it ) cannot be a sufficient ground for such and such a point , surelie it cannot be a sufficient ground to build a ground upon , as the Churches Infallibilitie , and therefore , though it it seemes you desire so much that this be beleeved , that so it be , you care not upon what proofe , yet a considering Protestant , who is not as hot to receive your Religion , as you are that he should , may presentlie say , when he is press'd by you with Scripture to this , since this is a way of proofe which your selves admit not of , an Argument from hence may bring me from my own Religion , but never to yours , because it is a beame which that relies much upon , that by any other way , then the authoritie of the Church , no man can be sufficientlie sure of the meaning of Scripture .

That they say , the Church is made infallible that we may have some guide , I thinke it very rationall ; for Nature hath given ever some strong , and uncontroulable Principle in all Natures to guide the rest . The Common-wealth hath a Governour not questionable , our Understanding hath Principles which she cannot judge , but by them judgeth of all other verities . If there should not be some Principle in the Church , it were the onely maimed thing God had created , and maimed in its Principall part , in the very head . And if there be such a Principle , the whole Church is Infallible by that , as the whole man seeth by his eyes , toucheth by his hands .

Repl. Christ is our unquestionable , and infallible Governour , and his Will the Principle by which we are guided , and the Scripture the place where this Will is contained , which if we endeavour to find there , we shall be excused , though we chance to misse , and therefore want not your guide , ( who either is not , or as hard to find as the way : and againe , when he hath defined , the certaine meaning of that definition , as hard to find as herself . ) Neither is a company of men thus beleeving , maimed in the head , though having no other more uncontroulable Principle : If your guide were evident of her self , as those Principles are by which we judge all things else , then your Similitude would hold a little , whereas being neither knowable in her self , nor proveable by ought else , what you have said onely shewes , what an ill match is made , when Witt is set against Truth .

Resp. It is sufficient for a Child to believe his Parents , for a Clown to believe his Preacher about the Churches Infallibility : For Faith is given to mankind , to be a meanes of believing , and living like a Christian , and so he hath this second , it is not much matter in what tearmes he be with the first .

Repl. To what you say , I answer that I confesse that it is not possible that without particular Revelations , or Inspirations , the ignorant , even of the Orthodox party , should receive their Religion upon very strong grounds , ( which makes me wonder , that even from them you should exact an assent of a higher nature , and a much greater certaintie , then can be ministred to them by any arguments which they are capable of ) yet if they believe what they receive , with an intention of obedience to God , and supposall that their opinions are his Revelations , and use those meanes which they in their Conscience think best to examine whether they be or no , ( though it be when they find themselves unable to search , by trusting others whom they count fittest to be trusted ) I beleeve they are in a very saveable estate , though they be farr from having of me truth of their Tenets any Infallible certaintie ; and the same I think of those which are in error , for since you cannot deny , but that a Child , or a Clown , with the same aptnesse to follow Gods will , may be taught by his Parents , or his Preacher , that what God forbids , he commands , that Christ's Vicar , is Antichrist , or the Church , Babylon , and scarce teacheth any truth , though it could not teach the least error ; why should such a one be damned for the misfortune of having had Hereticall Parents , or a deceiving Preacher : For no more it seemes is required of such , then to give his beliefe to those ; ( And indeed the same reason extended , will excuse him , who though learned , impartially aimeth at Gods will and misseth it ) for though you seeme to insinuate , by the cause you give of what you say , that so men believe and do what they heare God command , he careth not upon what grounds , yet I , who know that God hath no other gaine by our so doings then that in it we sacrifice to him our soules and affections , cannot believe , but that they shall be accepted who give him that which he most cares for , and obey him formally , though they disobey him materially , God more considering and valuing the Heart then the Head , the end then the actions , and the fountaine then the streames ; And truely else he who through stupidity or impotence abstained from any vice , or through negligence or prejudice miss'd some error , would be as well accepted of by God , as he that by a care of his waies and of obedience to him who should rule them , did avoide the first , and by a studious search , the second .

I cannot part from this Theame without one consideration more , and that is , that if so Fallible a Director as you speak of , may be cause enough of assent to one Truth , why may they not be so to another , and why shall not the beleefe of our ignorants , upon their testimonie , that the Scripture is the Word of God , be as well founded , as that of yours to the Infallibility of the Church upon the same ? And yet it is daily objected to us , that this beleefe of ours is not surely enough founded , since not received from their Church , although the unlearned among us receive it from their Parents and Preachers , and the learned from Tradition ; as from the first of those your unlearned do , and from the second of which your learned pretend they do receive the authority , and infallibility of the Church it self : Although we be so much more reasonable then you , that we require them not to be so sure upon it , as they are of what they know by sence , but onely to give them so much credit , that they may give up their hearts to obedience .

Resp. Neither do I remit him to a generall and constant Tradition , as if himself should climbe up every age by learned Writers , and find it in every one I take it to be impossible testimonies one may find in many ages , but such as will demonstrate and convince a full Tradition I much doubt : Neither do I find by experience , that who will draw a man by a rope or chaine , giveth him the whole rope or chaine into his hands , but onely one end of it , unto which if he cleave hard , he shall be drawn which way the rope is carried . Tradition is a long chaine , every generation or delivery from Father to Son being a link in it , &c.

Repl. Of this opinion I was wholly before , First upon my own small observation , ( which also perswaded me , that no controverted opinions had so much colour for such a Tradition out of antiquity , as some which now are by both parts condemned . And after , by consideration of what hath been so temperately learned , and judiciously writen by our Protestant , Perron D' Aille ; But though I think that nothing is wholly provable by sufficient testimonies of the first ages , to have had Primary and generall Tradition , ( except the undoubted books of Scripture , or what is so plainly there , that it is not controverted between you and us ) yet I think the Negative is easie to be proved , because any one known person dessenting , and yet then accounted a learned and pious Catholique , shews the Tradition not to have been generall , and that the Church of this Age differs from that of those times , if it Anathematize now , for what then was either approved of , or at least thought not so horrid but it might be borne with . And again , though we agree upon what will not serve to convince a full Tradition , yet we disagree about what will serve ; for allowing there were any controverted opinions delivered , with equall Tradition to the Scripture ( which I deny to have beene , but would receive if it so appeared ) yet sure you beginne at the wrong end , in the examination of what those are , which ought to be done , by considering the testimonies of the first ages , and not of the last , for in your own similitude of a rope , though to helpe me to climbe by if , you put but one end into my hands , yet you must shew me , that the other end is somewhere fastened , or else , for ought I know , instead of getting up by it , I may onelie get a fall , and this fastening appeares not to me , till I be shewed some more certaine connexion between the Opinions of this Age , and those of the Apostolicke times , then yet you have done , or till you have answered those Arguments , by which , as I perswade my selfe , I have made it appeare , that it cannot be done ,

Resp. As for the two places concerning the Popes and Councels Infallibillity , it is not to my purpose to meddle of them , because of one side the way I have begun , beareth no need of those discourses , and on the other , I should engage my selfe in Quarrels betweene Catholique and Catholique , obscure the matter I have taken in hand , and profit nothing in my hearers , more then to be judged , peradventure to have more learning , then wisedome to governe it withall .

Repl. With your favour Sir , these places concerne , not onely questions between your selves , but between you and us ; for I thought you had all agreed ( though I knew you had not alwaies done so , and though it seemes by your declining to speak about it , that you doe not yet ) that generall Councels , confirmed by the Pope , are infallible , and the Doctrines defined by them , are to be beleeved de fide , which if you be not , then the Glew , which it is so bragged , you have to keepe you still at Unitie , is dissolved and if you be , then you should both have answered upon what grounds you are so , and have destroyed my Objections against the possibilitie of certaintie , knowing when it is , that these ( which used to be called the Church ) have defined : finding therefore Altum Silentium , where there was so much cause of speaking , makes me beleeve , that the cause why you have not answered is , onely because you could not , and then you have a readie Apologie , that Nemo tenetur adimpossibilia , which I beleeve the rather , because I know , that to so cleare a judgement as yours , that place of Scripture , When two or three are gathered together , &c. which is so often press'd for the Infallibilitie of Councels , must appeare to make as much for the Synod of Dort , as for the Councell of Trent , and to so great a learning as yours , it cannot be unknown how few ( if any ) of the Ancients have asserted their Infallibilitie , and how many , both of the Ancients , and your Modernes , have denied it ; I am confirmed in this beleife too , because you , I know , would never have accepted that as a sufficient excuse from me , if I had avoided to answer an Argument so , because Protestants are not agreed upon the point , if you had thought it such , as that they ought to have been agreed upon it , and truelie this is as great and considerable a question , as any among us .

Resp. As for the two places of Fevardentius , which alloweth many Fathers to have fallen into errors , I thinke it will not trouble him who is accquainted with the course of this present Church , wherein divers , who be thought great Divines , fall into errors , for which their Bookes are sometimes hindered from the print , sometimes recalled , or some leaves commanded to be pasted up , the reason is , the multiplicity of Catholike Doctrine which doth not oblige a man to the knowledge of every part , but to the prompt subjection of the instruction of the Church , wherefore many men may hold false doctrine inculpably , not knowing it to be such , even now after the learned labours of so many that have strived to open and facilitate by Method , what is true , and what is false ; much more in the Fathers times , when there was great want of so many Compilers as these latter ages have produced .

Repl. First , What Fevardentius confesseth , proves plainlie that , for which I intended it , which was , the ridiculousnesse of proving their Doctrine to be true , by being conformable to that of the Fathers , and yet making themselves Judges of those Judges they appeale too , and confessing , that many of them erred in many points , which if they did , they might as well doe the same in those about which we differ , although they agreed with you , and dissented from us .

Secondlie , What both he confesseth , and you confesse with him , disproves that way of knowing divine Truths which you propose , for neither the Doctors of the ancient Church ( who were sure more likelie to know what was then taken for Tradition , then any late Compilers ) nor of the Modern , who had a mind to deliver truth , and trac'd and followed your way of finding it , could erre in points of faith , if Qui docet ut didicit , he that teacheth as he hath been taught , must still be in the right , for publique Tradition , no learned man , at least can be ignorant , not any man ( say you ) of what he was taught when a Childe , as the substance of his hopes for all eternitie , and so cannot in reason have his books either forbidden or pasted up , for delivering any thing contrary to it .

Secondly , Who are these Censors who forbid and paste up books , certainly not the Universall Church , nor yet the Representative , the latter is not alwaies in being , nor when it is , at leasure to consider and judge all authors , and of the first these Authors are a part , if then they be fallible , ( as they must be if they be not the Church ) why may not they erre , and the Martyr-books speake truth , which yet will easily by this meanes be kept from Posteritie , if those in the Dictatory Office dissent from it as they will be sure to do , if the opinion contradict never so little the power or greatnesse of the Pope , upon whose favour these Oecumenicall Correctors must depend , or they not long remaine in their places : and yet you expect that your adversary should produce succession of their opinions in all ages , though nothing be let passe but what a few please , and though when in time all of you are agreed ( as you will soon be or appear to be , if one side appear to be gag'd ) then this consent , though thus brought about , becomes the consent of the Church , and a very notable Motive .

And since you say , that what all are bound to , is onely a prompt subjection to the Church , why leave you it so in doubt , what is the Church , as if men were tyed to be subject , but must not know to what ; you say indeed , that the adherers to the Church of Rome are now the Church , but what they may be , you will not plainely declare ; So that if a Schisme among them should happen , we are all as farrto seek as if you had been wholly silent , for since the infallibility lies not in the particular Church of Rome , and consequently the adhering to her is not ever a sufficient note of the Church , ( as you will not say ) nor is it among your selves de fide , since the Universall Church ( whatsoever she be ) can never define any thing , and of the authority of the definitions of the Representative , and of what constitutes both her and her decrees , you refuse to speak , what remaines there , to which this prompt subjection is to be the onely everlasting Note of the true Church , but onely the Truth whensoever she appeares ; Thus as the Priests of Apollo ( therefore peradventure called Loxias ) used to spread lies , and secure his reputation , the first by the antiquity , and the second by the darknesse of his Oracles , so doth your Religion gaine upon many men , and secure her seflf rom many objections , by the manyfold acceptions , and consequently difficulty of this tearme Church ; For whatsoever is said in Scripture concerning her being free from all spot , or prevailing against the gates of Hell , or their danger who resist her , the first meant ( as I believe , and the place denies not by any circumstance ) of the Church Triumphant , the second of the Church of the Elect , and the third , of the Professors of Christianity in generall , or at most of those who are in all necessary points Orthodox among them ; That they without sufficient proofe resolve to be spoken of the Church in their sence they have fancied ; That is , some ever known body of Christians which must be still guide to the rest , and then claime to be that , because no other ( all else being more ingenious ) claimes it besides themselves , whereas , if ( considering that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and the Oraculous truth of my great Lord Bacon's observation , that unlesse men in the beginning of their disputes agree about the meaning of their tearmes , they must end about words , where they ought to have begun ) they had marked what other sence these words were capable of , ( for if it will here beare another , then this cannot hence be concluded but by leave ) they would then soon have seen the weaknesse of their building , by the slightnesse of their foundation . Againe , they prevaile much by working upon mens assents , by the meanes of their modesties , and presse it to be an intollerable pride to oppose their opinions to the consent of the Catholick Church ; whereas , if it be weighed how small a part of it they mean by that word , and yet of them how many follow blindly the decrees of one , and how soon those prevaile against that few not backed by any power who do not , it will then appeare , that not onely other Churches , but even a John or a Thomas have as much reason to be lead by their own understandings , as by the opinions and decrees of and Vrban or a Gregory , upon which that consent is so often founded ; And as they make their advantage of this word in their offensive warres , so do they in their defensive , for when they are press'd unto the absurdity of their Tenets , then ( though indeed they be generall ) yet they pretend , that they are the opinions but of private , though many men , and not of the Church ; and againe , when any Fathers ( who yet sometimes they say are wholly theirs ) are shewed to contradict some of their Doctrines so plainely , that none of those subterfuges , which in one of their expurgatory Indexes , they confesse they often use , will serve to palliate it ; then they strive to scape by answering , that the Church had not then defined it , whereas if it be examined , how farre they consent about what is the Church , and what are her Definitions ( whereof they are not yet agreed , for some say , she hath defined what , others say , she hath not ) this onely will be certainlie found , that it never can be certainlie found , what are her opinions of any point , or when she hath declared her selfe : As ( besides manie other Arguments , some press'd by my selfe , and others , by other Pens more fit to treat of so weightie a matter ) appeares by your refusing to leave your Latibula ; and declare plainlie your opinion concerning it , which if you saw defensible , and you were all agreed about it , you would quicklie have done , and not incurred the reprehension of that Axiome , which teacheth , that Dolosus versatur in generalibus , which makes me thinke , that if this were generallie enough mark'd , you would no longer be able to dazle any mans eyes with the splendid title of Sonnes to the Catholique Church , as Alexander hoped to doe those of the Barbarians , with stiling himselfe 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the Sonne of Jupiter , although indeed he was so much the more moderate then the second , as never to denie , that any other could be Sonne to the same Father , whereas you will not allow , that any may have interest in your Mother besides your selves .

To conclude this Paragraph , give me leave to aske one question , and that is , how your saying , that Truth is more easie to finde now then in the Fathers times , will agree , either with the way which you say , is the onely Catholique one to finde Truth by ( for sure such a Tradition was alwaies equallie easie to finde , and if the first ages had erred in it , we must of necessitie , following your advice , have followed their error too ) or with the saying of so many of your side , that if I should reckon them up , I should make a Catalogue of Authors , equall to those of Photius , or Gesner , or Possevine , who all joyne , that Truth was most likelie to be most certainlie known that time , which was , in Campians words , Christo propior , ab hac lite remotior , neerer to Christ , and consequentlie to Tradition , and to which , for that cause , all thinke fit to appeale against us , or with that custome of your Church , which suffers none to take Orders before they have vowed to interpret Scriptures according to the Fathers , which if men now adaies be more likelie to find the Truth , then at that time they were ( as they must be , if truth in this age be more easie to be found ; whether through greater abundance of Compilers , or what else soever ) then this Vow is as much , as if they had vowed to leave the best way of Interpretation and teaching , to follow the worst .

Resp. As for the two points , he saith , avert him from Catholique doctrine , I am mistaken , if he be not mistaken in both . The first is , that the Catholiques doe damne all who are not in the Union of their Church . He thinkes the sentence hard , yet I thinke he will not deny me this , that if any Church does not say so , it cannot be the true Church . For call the Church what you will ; the Congregation of the Elect , the Congregation of the Faithfull , the Congregation of Saints , or Just ; call it , I say , or define it what you will , doth it not clearly follow , that whosoever is out of the Church cannot be saved , for he shall not be the Elect , Just , Faithfull , &c. without which there is no salvation . How then can any Church maintain these two Propositious ; I am the true Church , and yet one may be saved without being in me :

Repl. This is , by your favour , a meere Paralogisme ; for though those who define the Church by qualities , which both Parts agree , to be the conditionall Keyes to the Kingdome of Heaven , must needs affirme , that none out of the Church can be saved , yet what is this to them , who meane by the Church , the Companie of the Orthodox in all points , and by them your selves , out of which ( allowing that there be such a one , which I doubt of , and that to be yours ) I shall beleeve , that some may be saved , till I see some more cause to thinke all error in Religion alwaies damnable , which it is plaine , by what after you say , that you thinke not your selfe , and the Church taken in this sence , which is your sence , may maintaine both Propositions ; or to shew you , how much , what you say , would make against your selfe , thus I argue ; The true Church must hold that none can be saved out of her , but your Church denies not , but that some out of her may be saved , therefore yours is not the Church : My Major is included in your own saying , that those two Propositions are not maintainable together : My Minor , though false , yet is also your confession ( where you say , that the Churches Proposition is not so cruell as it seemes , though the words be rough ) and therefore so ought you to make my conclusion too : Besides , those who exclude all from Salvation , who are out of the Church in the other sence , meaning by it the Elect , as they are not like them in the wrong , so they are not occasion of much harme , like them , who stiling the Church , a companie of men of such a beleife , and under such a government , affirme an impossibilitie of being saved out of it ; for they giving no visible signe of who is in the Church ( for who can know the Elect , but the Electer ) cause no want of Charitie , nor frequencie of Warre , and persecutions by it , as the others doe , who having made first a visible partition , least those who are out of it may draw others out too , they send them out of the world by way of prevention .

Resp. But per adventure he is scandalized , that the Catholick Church requireth actuall Communion externall with her , which he thinketh may in some case be wanting without detriment of Salvation . But how would he have the Church speake , which speaketh in common , , but abstracting from such particular cases as may change wholly the Nature of the Question .

Repl. I am scandalized , not because you require to Salvation joining with you in Communion , but because also you require joyning with you in opinions , and if it were onely this , yet am not I any whit satisfied with what you say for it , for with the true Church , that is the Commpany of true believers , in points any way materiall ( or rather the truest ) I conceive it not damnation sometimes not to communicate : For if they have any never so slight errors , and which appeares so to me , which yet they will force me to subscribe to , if I Communicate with them , my assent would be damnable , or if they require the same subscription to some truths , which yet after my reall indeavours in inquiry , appear errors to me , I doubt not but my refusall is no way damnable : Neither can I absolve your Church concerning this her saying for your reason , because she speakes in generall , wholly abstracting from particulars , which change the nature of the Question , for why doth she so , why doth she not expresse her exceptions , or at least tell us , that the rule is not so generall , but that it will beare some , and not make men ( who know not that she intends to restraine at all , what she so absolutely pronounceth , and who will find no cause to take your bare word for her intentions ) many times , at least to hate them as Gods enemies , whom he loves as his friends , and beleeve them to fry in Hell , who shine in Heaven ? Howsoever if she use to expresse herself in rougher words then her meaning is , how apt may she be to be mistaken in severall of her resolutions , and consequently how easie is it for some age to have misunderstood the past , and deceive the following : Neither do I like your example , because that is not to differ from the Church , but to mistake her meaning , though even he , who should denie that there were three Gods , if he thought that by the Trinitie your Church so meant , must consequently think her not infallible , and so by your grounds be consequently a Heretick .

Resp. The current of Catholick Doctors that no man shall be damned for infidelity , but he who doth wilfully misbeleeve , and that to do so it is required that Faith be sufficiently proposed unto him , and what is to be sufficiently proposed , is not determined amongst them . There wanteth not Divines who teach , that even ignorantia affectata , doth excuse from Heresie . On the other side it is most certaine , that no man is damned for not professing , what he is not damned for not believing . Wherefore , profession being that which engrafteth a man exteriorly in the Church , according unto the ordinary opinions of the Catholicks , it followeth , that no man is condemned for not being of the Church , who is not for infidelity , for which it is a very uncertaine Case who be damned , and who be not .

Repl. As the King of Spaine , after long calling the Hollanders Rebels , at last for his own sake descended to treat with them as free States , so those of your Religion , when they hope to gaine a Proselite , thunder out to him crudelity , and without any of these Mollifications which you now use , that extra Ecclesiam Romanam nulla est salus , there is no salvation out of the Roman Church . And Master Knot peremptorily avers , that no Catholick of an entire fame ever taught , that a Protestant so dying could be saved , yet when they are press'd with the consequences , they can ( as it seems ) vouchsafe to give us better words , and find 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 enough to soften this opinion , though such as bring them more disadvantage in other considerations , then help in this . For first , as before it seemed that you are not fully agreed either about the authority of the councels , or what constitutes the Church , ( by your avoiding to speak concerning it ) so now it seemes , that neither are you resolved of what constitutes an Heretick , and then what remaines there for you to know , if what you account infallible and what damnable , be yet both uncertaine to you .

Secondly , Since you confesse none to be a Heretique , but he to whom the truth is sufficiently proposed , and when that is , you are not resolved : what a more then Sythian Barbarousnesse is it to make a coale of a Christian , onely upon suspicion of Heresie ? especially since the Pagans themselves had Christian Charity enough to perswade them , that it was much better that a guilty person should escape , then an innocent be punished : much more should you rather suffer the tares to grow , then venture to pluck up the corne with it , and beleeve the best , when the truth lies hid in a place so hard to search into , as is the heart of man , into which ( as none entered the Sanctum Sanctorum but the High Priest ) God onelie can have admittance .

Resp. The other point was of putting Hereticks to death , which I think he understandeth to be done vindicatively , not medicinally , I mean , imposed as a punishment , and not in way to prevent mischiefe , and oppresse it in the head .

Repl. I suppose it small satisfaction to a poor man , carried to the stake for his Conscience , to know by which member of a distinction he is put to death , and that this as little excuseth you , as it satisfies them , I hope to shew before we have ended the consideration of this present Paragraph .

Resp. If the Circumcelians were the first , that is , ancient enough for the justification of the fact ; although for Banishment , which also he seemeth to reprehend , we know the first that could suffer it did suffer it , Arrius I mean , by the hand of Constantine , whom he praiseth for a speech he uttered before he knew the consequence of the danger , and seemeth to reprehend for his after and better witts .

Repl. I wish to you what Erasmus wisht to Augustinus Steuckius , which is , that you were but equall in probando diligens , as you are in asseverando fortis : For how unlikely is it that we should give you credit without proofe onely , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that the antiquity of a thing , which began so long after Christs Apostles , were all dead , is enough to prove it lawfull : Howsoever it would at most but prove it lawfull , to put such Hereticks to death , as force men to do so in their owne defence , for such were they : Besides I object not onely against this custome the not being ancient , ( for I conconfesse there might have been before a power to do so too , though not used to the uttermost , though in likelihood what perswaded you to use it , would have perswaded them to the same , if they had thought they had it ) but as being also condemned by Hillary , and Athanasius , and other Orthodox : For though some punishment of a lesse degree were inflicted upon others too by their own side , ( as you trulie instance ) when their power prevailed ; yet Constantine saies , not onely in an Edict for libertie of opinions , ( which he , who was then Pope never appeared to stomack , as his successor , undoubtedly would now doe the like ) 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , let no man trouble another , but let every one do as his own soule will : but also gives this concluding reason against you for it , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . For it is one thing willingly to take upon them this combate for immortality , and another to force them to it with punishment ; and so in whatsoever he did contrary to this in any case , wherein this reason held his words , condemne his action : And whereas you say , that when Constantine made so slight of the question between Arrius and Alexander , it was , because he knew not the consequence of the danger : I shall desire to know of you whether you must not confesse , that there is now no King of your Religion so ill instructed in it , ( though none of them be never so learned or curious as Constantine was , who , if any man in his dominion should arise , denying Transubstantiation , would not presently know the danger of the consequence , and resolve him for an Heretick , and to the stake instantly , and not speak against his opinion onelie as impertinent , and de lana caprina , and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and if this had been as resolved a thing then among Christians , to have come from Tradition , as Transubstantiation is now amongst Papists , he would necessarilie as soon have discovered it too : Howsoever I believe his after-witts to have been his worser witts , in punishing , though not in condemning of Arrius , and to me it yet seemes ( for to be sure , not to speak Heretically , I will not speak obstinately ) that to have laboured in stopping of disputes on both parts , and tying them to Scripture Phrases , and to speak of God onelie in the Word of God , had been at least in respect of Unity , not a worse way , then to have given an example to what after followed , I mean , the frequent explication ( with Anathema to boote ) of inexplicable misteries ; Neither would then so many questions have so long troubled the Church , which for their slightnesse were unworthy ever to exercise the Schooles ; But for that or any other meer error , as it may be for ought any one knowes , unlawfull in any to punish at all , I by no meanes like not to put to death , for the same seemes to me it self 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , a sin above measure sinfull , though even the act of it proceeded from an opinion of doing God some service , and that opinion from a meer error too , then I conceive but a materiall no formall sin for the same cause , and so , neither this materiall Murtherer , nor that materiall Heretick , be guilty before God , who onely can distinguish , and to whom it is fit to be left . Howsoever the long doubt of some , and opposall of other Orthodox to this course , and that arising not from their Policie or Compassion , but their Conscience , not as thinking it unprofitable or unfit , but unlawfull , shews , that there was then no Tradition that the Apostles taught it to be lawfull so to use Hereticks , upon which onelie , all the Infallibilitie , which you claime for any beliefe or custome of your Church , is founded ,

Resp. Saint Austine justifieth such proceedings against Hereticks .

Repl. Truely for putting them to death ( unlesse when they first assaulted ) which makes a wide difference , for then it was not done as to Hereticks , but as to Assassines , from whom Nature teaches us to defend our selves , and consequentlie to re-offend them whensoever Religion barres it not , experience shewing us the danger of meerly defending , to be neer to that too , of not doing it at all ) I know not that ever he did , nor do I beleeve it : That some degree of punishment should be inflicted upon them , I confesse he at last consented , but chiefly to force them to come and see what the Church did , ( whose actions the Hereticks impudently belied ; as if they set pictures upon the altar , and did what you both doe and defend , and they did not ) i. e. denied it . Howsoever we have Saint Austine against Saint Austine , and not onely his authority , but his reasons more valid by much , then that when he saith , that such oppressions would make them think themselves vi victos , non veritate convictos , overcome by force , not convicted by Truth , and consequently dislikes it , ne fictos Catholicos habeamus , quos apertos Hereticos novimus , least they become from open Hereticks , but fained Catholicks : Reasons , which ( though these be not all we have ) in my opinion it was as impossible for him reasonably to answer when he was living , as it would be now for him to do it when he was dead . Besides , as he useth these strong arguments against it , so he is himself a strong example against it , for the Church had lost this her so notable Champion , if they then had been as severe to the Manichees as you are to us .

Resp. Saint Gregory vseth the like against Pagans , ( if I remember ) and the Church laterly hath rather encreased , then decreased in the practice of it .

Repl. I believe your memory deceives you in this , which you have cause to hope it doth , for else the Church of Rome differs from that of Saint Gregories times , it being now with her a judged case , that Infidels may not be compelled to the Faith , as I am told is shewed by Valentia , Saint Thomas , Hartado , and others , the Church having no power over those who are out of it , and therefore they please to say , that ( like them who among the Romans were onely Cives ad oncra , liable to the taxes of Citizens , without Interest in their Priviledges ) Baptisme hath made us of the Church enough to be liable to her Punishments , though not to be benefitted by her Communion : Though indeed the same cause why you would have Hereticks put to death , for feare of harming others with their opinions , me thinks should extend to their punishment too , unlesse you believe us to be as bad as Malefactors , and not them , or that their opinions are so irrationall as not likely to spread , and ours so reasonable , that against them the sword is the best shield , and therefore ( as Brennus did his ) you put that into the scales for want of weight , it being of giving Reasons as the Poet saith it is of giving Requitalls , Irasci quam donari vilius constat .

Another reason which perswades me that you are mistaken in what you say of Gregory , ( as this mistake facilitates my beliefe , that you are so about Austines too ) is that Bede tells , that some Romanists , having converted the King of Kent , that King did not yet force any to become Christians , for ( saith he ) he had learned of these his Masters , that the service of Christ ( WHICH REASON EXTENDS FARTHER THEN TO PAGANS ) must be voluntary , and not forced ; Now if these received what they taught from Gregory , ( as you often tell us ) then either he did not as you often say , or thought that unlawfull which himself did ; And howsoever this Custome hath encreased since is very unconsiderable , for unlesse it have its authority explicitely or implicitely from the Apostles , it can give none since , and unlesse it be proved to be well done at first , no continuance can give this , or any other action more justification then at first it had .

Resp. Moses speech I believe is mistaken , the force of it being , that the banishment of Bishops shewed his faith , because the banished were Catholickes , which shewed Lucius to be none .

Repl. If Moses had meant as you would have him , he should not have said , onely 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , but 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , not indefinitelie the banishing of Bishops , but the banishing of Orthodox Bishops , the leaving therefore of that out , wherein , according to you , the whole sence of his Argument lay , seemes to me plainlie enough to shew , that he meant what they and you denie : especiallie he adding ( as you may see in Zozomon ) their being punish'd by labour , as well as punishment , and then saying , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , which things are whollie , abhorring from Christ , and all right Beleevers concerning God , and in Socrates , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 for Gods servant ought not to fight , for so he counted to punish .

Resp. But what can be said , if the Church useth that for the prevention of a greater and more dangerous evill , which all politique Estates use for the remedies of lesse , and tesse dangerous evils , and are commanded for it . For if Faith be the way to Salvation , and Heresie be the bane of Faith ; if Salvation the greatest good , then the danger of a Countries being over-runne with Heresie , is the greatest of dangers , greater then the multiplicity of Theeves , greater then the unsurety of the wayes , greater then a Plague , or Invasion ; why then doth not reason force us to use meanes to prevent it , which the same reason and experience teacheth us to be most efficacious in this , and all other contagious and gangrening maladies of the Common-wealth . I hope reason it selfe , and the zeale of the Author to his own , and Countries salvation , will supply my shortnesse in this , point , for supposing a Church be assured she is in the right , and that the doctrine preach'd , as then leadeth to damnation ; I know not why Caiphas his words should not be propheticall in this case , and that truly it doth expedire , that Unus moriatur pro populo , & non tota gens pereat .

Repl. I wish heartilie , you were as good a Caterer as a Cooke , I meane , that you brought as good reasons as you dresse artificiallie what you bring ; For I finde there is in your words a verie notable 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , able to steale a man into your opinion , before he hath askt himselfe why ; but if he stay to doe so , then all your excellent embroiderie will not keepe him from discerning manie bracks in your stuffe : To prove which , I will bring many reasons ( besides what I have taught alreadie ) by which it shall , I hope , appeare , why those , whom you call Hereticks , should not be put to death , although Malefactors may , although even the lawfulnesse of that ( since other punishments , which would not shorten their time of repentance , might peradventure serve to represse them ) is not absolutelie certaine .

First , Malefactors plainlie offend against their Consciences , at least , thinke not themselves bound by them to commit their villanies ( neither pretend they otherwise ) which they , whom you call Hereticks , either bona fide follow , or doe for ought at least you can know .

Secondlie , What are Malefices , must be known bef re Malefactors , and Heresies before Hereticks ; now of the first Mankinde agrees , but of the second but you onely , a small part of Christians , and yet you differ too about the waies of knowing them , and consequentlie , whether some things be Heresies or no ( as for example , whether the Oath of Alleagiance containe any ) wherein since some of you are deceived , me thinkes it should incline you to thinke it not impossible for you all to doe so , in what you all agree to be such .

Thirdlie , Malefactors are not , or should not be punished for such , without a plaine knowledge that such they are ; but although there were an impossibilitie of mistaking what is Heresie , yet there is no possibilitie of knowing who are Hereticks , the forme of which is obstinacie , a secret , and ( to man ) an undiscoverable qualitie , whom he onelie should punish who onelie knowes .

Fourthlie , Malefactors are certaine to hurt others , whereas neither are Heretickes sure to perswace any , and if they doe , yet they may hurt none , since who receives their beleife bona fide , and through meer error , is unharmed by it .

Fifthlie , Whom they doe harme , it must be brough their own fault , and by their own consent , whereas without either , the Malefactors are cause of much mischiefe , even to the most guiltlesse .

Sixthlie , Malefactors passing whollie un●●nish'd , peradventure not put to death , would ●ring a certaine destruction to the state , which temporall Magistrates are appointed to watch over , which yet in speculative opinions is not concerned .

Seventhly , The punishment even by death , of Malefactors brings not any temptation of sinning , upon them , the same to others is in all probabilitie a cause to keep many from a carefull search of Gods Truth , ( least they might find the punishable beleefe to be the true one ) and from professing it , when they think they have found it ; both which are sinns of the first magnitude .

Eigthly , This course with Malefactors was not , for ought appears , ever thought unlawfull in the purest times of Christianity , and was then in use , whereas towards errors in beleefe , it was disallowed of them by the chiefe , and long before death was at all inflicted upon them , though then understood as well the danger of Heresie , and were as carefull to preserve their flocks from all danger by all lawfull waies , as any since .

Ninthly , It no way redounds to Christs Glory , that Malefactors be unpunisht , but it makes much for it , that his Army appears to consist of Volunteers , and not of Press'd men , that his Truth should prevaile by no humane force , but onely by the power of the first teacher , and the light of the Doctrine , which for us unbidden so to assist , is to think the Arke must fall , if we hold not forth our hands to hold it up , and takes from it the honour of subsisting by the way , by which it took roote , when ( to borrow Saint Chysostomes words ) 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . The weak were to hard for the strong , and twelve for the World , and that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , They being naked , and their adversaries armed .

Tenthly , That death is the most effectuall way to suppresse Malefactors , you say reason and experience shewes , and it is generally agreed of ; but in this case it seems even to your best men the worst course , as appears by Iburranes resolution concerning the Hyper-Ephanians , by the 267 Page of grave and judicious Cardinall D' Ossat his Letters , by the Epistle of Cardinall Richelieu to his King before a Book of Controversie , and by Erasmus his Testimonie , who tells us , that a Carmelite having then this power in his hands , Ubicunque saevitiam exercuit Carmelita , ibi diceres fuisse factum Haeresεων sementum , wheresoever he exercised his crueltie , he seemed to have sowed Heresie . All which reasons make me beleeve , that there is much difference between the striving to destroy these two sorts of men , and if there were not , yet for fore-touched reasons , and others which I will touch at , I should as soone think it unlawfull to put Malefactors to death , as lawfully to kill Hereticks . For indeed since 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , it disadvantageth what you would aide ; to seem to beleeve that truth , without other assistance , would not sooner roote out falshood , then that it , that the Orthodox are not more likely to cure the seduced , then to be infected by them ; and that there is no way to end the Heresies , but by ending the Hereticks : And thus you runne into three inconveniencies .

First , You put reasonable scruples into considering mens minds , least as a Greek Orator saith against Ulysses for striking Thersites , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . It was a signe he could not confute him , that he stuck him ; so that it be want of arguments , which makes you fall to blowes , and cause them to suspect , that if you were not ( peradventure for some better reasons then appear to them ) diffident of your cause , you would give your adversaries leave to speak as loud as them pleased , and not seek so suspiciously to stop their mouthes , whilst they dispute with you at as much odds , and upon tearmes of as much disadvantage as Saint Paul did with the Grecian Jewes , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , he disputed against them , but they went about to stay him .

Secondly , It destroies those plausible Arguments so often used of Unity , and Tradition , and Multitude , for , first Uniformitie may be induced by power , but Unitie and Impunitie can never be parted ; all other agreement being but as a theefe and a robbed person agreed , the one to take his purse , and the other to give it againe . Againe Tradition it lames as much , for how can any man tell , but that two parts claiming contraty Traditions , or one part claiming it upon false grounds , and the other denying it , the truth may not by this force have been over-born , when we receive not what men would have delivered Posteritie , but what Power would suffer them .

Againe , how shall we know but that the greater part of your multitude beleeves not as they profess●● ; no man knowing his Neighbour to be of his mind when it is so probable , that many may not think as they speak , when it is not lawfull for all to speak as they think .

Thirdly , By this way you are causes , that you suffer often where you have not the State on your side , as much as you inflict when you have for though you will say that none should punish but the Church , yet every divided companie of Christians , thinking themselves to be that , ( that is to be the orthodox ) will use your own custome to your harme , and you will be shott like the Eagle in Esope , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , with your own feathers ; and so Truth weresoever she be ( if all follow this way ) will by force by many parties be opposed , and but by one propagated and defended ; so that not onely in consideration of Christianity , but even of Policy I mislike this course , as being alwaies wicked , and often hurtfull , and more often uneffectuall : And for my part , I desire so much that good be done for evill , that ( though you be most fit of any to be so used , who use us so where your power extends , and whose cruelty will extend with your acquisition , if you make any , and you hold your selves , that impendens periculum is cause enough for a warr ) yet I heartily wish all lawes against you repealed , and trust , that disarmed Truth would serve to expell Falshood , whereas now they being in force against you , give you the honour of a persecution , and not being executed , give you not the feare of one : It is truely said , Militia Christiana est Haereses expellere , but it needs this limitation , sed armis Christianis , that Christian warfare employ onely Christian armes , which are good arguments and good life else if they use such a course , as is more properly 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and go to force that part of man , which is liable to no power but that of perswasion , ( which if it do not beget a true and pious assent , in likelyhood it will a damnable dissimulation , and which , if Christ had meant for a prop for his Doctrine , he would as soon have at first made it a part of the foundation , and have charged his Apostles not to shake the dust off their feet , but to draw their swords out of the scabbard at those , who rejected what they taught , ) then it often ( though sometimes by reason of the different dispositions which reigne at severall times among men , and may happen otherwise ) misseth of the intended end , and works not often so much as upon mens tongues , and never upon their Heads and Hearts : A great example of which happened not long since , Calvin with all his works since the time they were written , having scarce made so many Protestants in France , as I have credibly heard it reported , that the Massacre made in a Night , which act though I impute not to all those of your Religion , for many of them I know did , and do mislike it , yet it both had its fountaine from the Popes Legate , ( and consequently in all likelyhood from the Pope , who gave God publick thanks for it ) as one of his successors confess'd to Cardinall D' Ossat , Page 432 , and it may be justified as well as any judiciall proceeding , upon that reason which you give , why Heresie may be stopped with the sword , least they who are wrought upon by it , may work upon others .

To conclude , I should be better contented with this course , if the opinions were infallibly errors , and infallibly damnable , and this were alwaies an effectuall way , ( and no other could be found more mercifull ) to stop their spreading , but since you have no infallible way of knowing the Church to be infallible in her definitions , and consequently , that the contrary opinions are false , since you know not infallibly which is she , ( for you pretend but prudentiall Motives ) since your knowledge having defined , is likewise fallible , as depending upon many uncertaine circumstances , since ; not onely the matter of Heresie is thus uncertaine , but the form too : for you confesse you doubt whether Ignorantia affectata be it or no , and since though the form were certaine , yet in whom , it is by no meanes plaine , but rather impossible to be known , ( as who is obstinate , and consequently to whom it is damnable ) since this course often gives growth , and strength to that , from which it would take even Being and Subsistance : I cannot but think you have cause to change your proceedings , least not onely you expell not , but least you encrease Heresie , and againe least you oppose it not , but mistake the Truth for it , and applaud your self for cutting off a Gangren'd member , when you destroy a sound one , and instead of ending a Heretick make a Martyr , and againe least ( allowing this to be the Truth ) yet you put to death innocent persons instead of guilty ; especially since if the opinions were damnable in whomsoever they were , yet some better way might be found , ( as close imprisonment or the like ) to keep them from harming with them , rather then ( as you do by putting them to death , when else they might live to be converted ) to damne them certainly , least they may possibly damne some others ; Againe for Protestants , who joyne with me in beleeving that there is no way to know the true Church , but by true Doctrine , nor to know that but by the Scripture , ( for Universall Tradition seemes to us to deliver nothing but what is so plainly contained there , that it is agreed upon ) in them I beleeve it must be intollerable Pride , and rashnesse , ( and the same in Papists concerning those places out of which they would prove the Churches infallibility ) To conclude , this seemes to me the sence of this place of Scripture , therefore this infallibility it is , and no man can denie it , who either gainsaies not his Conscience , or hath it not mislead by some sinfull passion or affection , and therefore the deniers must be damned , and therefore least they damne others , we will send them through one fire to another . And this , though it be an equall fault in both Protestants and Papists to say and do , yet it is more Illogicall in the former , as contradicting at first sight all their Principles , and destroying the whole Platforme upon which the Reformation was built .

Resp. He urgeth afterwards against the Unity of the Church , that it is none such as we brag of , And I confesse we brag of it , and think we have Reason . And if it please him to look into the difference of our Country of England , and some land of Barbarians , as Brasile , or such other , where they live without Law or Government , I think he will find our bragging is not without ground . For wherein is the difference betwixt a Civill Government and a Barbarous Anarchie ? Is it either that in a Civill Estate there be no Quarrells , or amongst Barbarians there is no Quiet ? The former would prejudice our Courts and Justice ; the latter is impossible even in Nature . What is then the goodnesse of a government , but in a well Governed Country there is a means to end Quarels , and in Anarchie there can be no assured peace ? This therefore is it we brag of , that amongst us if any controversie arise , there is a way to end it , which is not among them who parted from us . And Secondly , That there is no assured agreement amongst those who parted from us , for although to day they agree , there is no bond or tie why to morrow they may not disagree . These two things we brag of , and I think the Author will not denie it . For he confesseth that we all agree , in that the Church is an infallible Mistresse . Then it is evident , that if in any controversie she interposeth her judegment , the controversie is ended . He likewise confesseth , that who part from us have no such definitive authority amongst them , and that Scripture , whereon they rely , hath no such vertue to take up Controversies clearely .

Supposing that we agreed much lesse then you , yet a little , all in earnest , that is enforced , is more considerable , then much constrained , and so peradventure much of that much but in appearance ; Besides , that you all agree in those points , wherein if any disagree , he becomes none of you , is no more then is so common to all Religions , that even the very . Anabaptists may say as much for themselves ; For either all the Parts of them remaine of assent , insomuch that they are all still of the same Religion , and so agree as well as your Dominicans and Jesuites , or else their differences are such , as to make them of severall Religions , and then , why is want of Unity objected to them any more then it is to Christians in generall , among whom are so many divisions , and yet not the whole , but the faulty party taxed ? And truely in my opinion some Questions among your selves are as great , not onely as any among your adversaries , but as any between you and them . I but you answer , we have a way of being agreed , we reply , is it a way sure to lead to Truth as well as to Unity , or else so might we have by going to most at three throwes , and resolving to stand to that . Besides , if you have , and make no more use of it , it seemes there is no such need that Questions be ended , as for that purpose to introduce a necessitie of an Ender . But say you , neither are all suits in the Common-wealth ended ; We reply , that yet truely those Judges , who should make no more hast end them , then your Judge doth these , would deserve to loose his place , but this they do as fast as the nature of the thing will permit ; which being or depending upon matter of Fact , cannot be known enough to be judged before examination of witnesses , and the like , be ended , and if they willingly deferre the ending , they are confess'd to be in fault by all men , but those who hold Perjury to be none . But you seem to conceive our grounds faulty , as not leading even to a possible Unity , whereas to a possible one I am sure they do , ( since what is concluded out of them by many , may be by all ) nay indeed am confident , that all who receive the Scripture for the onely rule , and believe what is there plain to be onely necessarie , would if they truely beleeved what they professe , and were not lead aside either by prejudice , or private ends , or some Popish relicks of holding what they have long been taught , or following the authority of some by them much esteemed , persons either alive or dead ) soon agree in as much as is necessarie , and in concluding no necessity of agreeing in more , there being no doubt , but it would soone appear plainly what is plaine .

Besides if no grounds be sufficient for Unitie , which produce not the effect , then it seemes , the grounds of your grounds , those Arguments , by which you prove , that there is a Judge , and a generall Councell is it , are insufficient , since they are not able to make all Christians about this question : Again , although a Judge , and this Judge be received , yet this is still an insufficient ground for Unitie , since the Greek Church agree thus farre with you ( which is as farre as you agree with one another ) and yet are not so bound by it to any universall Unitie with them , but that they esteem you Hereticks , and are esteemed so by you : and if you say , that it is not , because the grounds , upon which the Infallibilitie of the Church are built , lead not sufficientlie to Unitie , that we joyne not with you in beleeving them to be infallible , not because the determination of generall Councels is not a sufficient meanes of Unitie , that the Greek Church admitting their authoritie , admits not of your opinions , but it is the fault of us ( and of them ) hardening our hearts against the truth ; then we may as well say , that some of those , who agree in our grounds , yet disagree from our doctrine , not that the grounds lead not to Unitie , but that our Adversaries will not be lead ; or if ( as you doe , and some others of you sometimes ) you confesse , that they through an innocent error dissent from you , and doe this without any imputation in this respect to your grounds , I hope it will be lawfull for us to allow the same possipilitie , without any disadvantage or prejudice to ours : Besides , say you , though we agree to day , yet we may not to morrow , which to prove , were 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , paines whollie lost , we confesse : For though Tully make it an expression of his contempt to Piso , in an Epistle to Atticus , Ita nihil est , ut plane quid erit , nesciat , yet I take it to be a true saying of man in generall , who knowes little of present things , and nothing of future ; but this is common to us both , for if we change not our opinions , we shall agree as we doe , and if you change yours you shall not , which is possible , for not onelie that opinion of the Infallibilitie of your judges decrees may it self be altered , which holdeth together all the rest , but some of you may holding that ground ( like the Greek , either change their opinions concerning the authority of such or such a Councell , as beleeving it unduelie called , factiouslie carried , or not generall as is pretended , or not so consenting as is requisite ) or differ from the rest , concerning the sence of the decrees : for whereas , you say , you agree that the Church is an infallible Mistresse , and when she interposeth her judgement , the controversie is ended .

I answer , that , first , some of you , with whom I have spoken my selfe , hold , that the Churches authoritie in defining , extends no further then to such points , whereof Tradition is of one part ( as in many controverted there is , I beleeve , no such ) and that this rule she may transgresse , and so erre .

Secondlie , Neither the Dominicans nor their Adversaries , are very readie to remain in suspence to await her decision , but define all readie concerning her definitions , Cum utraque pars tenax contendat suam non aliam posse definiri sententiam , either part tenaciouslie urging , that the contrarie opinion cannot be defined , which if they did to fright the Pope from defining , least the condemned partie being even before , should after make a Schisme , they obtained their end .

Thirdlie , What are you the nearer to Unitie for your Infallible Mistresse the Church , when you neither agree of any certaine and proper markes to know her by , nor when it is that she interposeth her judgement ; some take it to be the particular Church of Rome , others ( of which number you are ) all which communicate with her , supposing the first to be true , yet not being de fide , it will serve but ill by your rules to build our faith upon , and even when she delivers her opinion is not certainlie agreed , whether the people of Rome be to have Votes , or onelie the Clergie , or of them , onelie the Pope with the Cardinals , or the Pope onelie without them , if the Pope , whether , onelie in his Chaire , and what circumstances are required to his decreeing in Cathedra , would beget more questions : If all that communicate with her ( as you say , it is as things now stand . )

First , I would know whether they be sure to be at all times the Church , to that you refuse to derermine , and so inclusivelie denie .

Secondlie , It is not possible , that such a multitude should ever give any sentence explicitelie , nor can we ever know , that it hath even tacitelie done so , if they be to decree onelie by representation , then how large a companie represents them with all their power , of whom that companie is to consist , how many of them are to agree to make it a binding sentence , &c. are things yet undefined , and like to be , and if any goe about to determine them , their power being it selfe still a question , could not end these : Therefore , whereas you say , that we have no definitive sentence ( besides that truly to have one , and not to know when we have one , is much alike ; ) I answer , that whensoever the Scripture shall seeme to us to have defined , we are according to our doctrine readie to yeeld , and so the controversie is ended ( and sure the Scripture may be said to be a definitive sentence , as well as the written Councell of Trent ) and till then , though we differ about interpretations of not plaine places , we have as much Unitie as you , who are not resolved upon the sence of manie decrees of that and other Councels : and if a desire and diligence to finde the true meaning of them , and an aptnesse to assent when it is found , be thought to secure among you , those who mistake the true sence of these Councels , why should not the same disposition in us towards the Scripture , be thought every whit as sufficient , not onely to keepe us in unitie , but to secure us from danger .

To conclude , though unitie be a thing much spoken of by you , yet I finde it chieflie onely in your discourse ; your differences are many and great , onelie you say , you agree in what is necessarie , and make the measure of things necessarie what you agree in , so the summe is , you agree in what you doe agree ( which it is impossible you should not , though you had carried away the bayes from Bibrias his Tombe ) eager against us , and yet divided among your selves , like the state of an Armie in Tacitus , Manente Legionum auxiliorumque , ubi adversus Paganos certandum foret , consensu , and if your Church brag of such an Unity , I perceive a small matter will make her brag .

Resp. Againe , I do confesse most English - men confesse a Trinity , the Incarnation and Passion of our Saviour , but if to morrow , any one or more of them light upon some Book of an Arrian , Trinitarian , or other Sect , so wittily written that he putteth probable solutions for the places of Scriptures , shewes slight waies how our well meaning fore-fathers may have slipped into such an Error , what is there to retaine those men from disagreeing with the rest of their Bretheren , and betake themselves to the Arrians ? And when the heat is past light upon some Rabbi , who shall cunningly exaggerate the absurdities , ( as he shall tearm them ) of the Trinitie , Incarnation ; Say our Saviour did strange things in vertue of some Constellation , and delivering these things so Oratorically , that for a new heat , some of these things shall seem more conformable then his Arrianisme , what then shall hinder this man to become a Jew , and at last to prove himself so great a Clerk as to write de tribus Impostoribus : Take away the power of the Church , which every man doth who taketh away the Infallibility , what can retaine any man why he should not yeeld to that discourse which seemeth fairest , seeing nothing is certaine ?

Repl. And if you should meet with a book : which should give probable solutions to the places of Scripture , and reasons which you now think prove the authority of the Church , and bring other ( though suppose but slight , yet such as may seem strong ) Arguments to prove it not infallible , and shew waies of the same kind , how your ancestors may have slipt in that , and by that into other errors , what is there to retaine you with the rest of your Bretheren , and betaking your selfe to us ? If you say this is impossible to be done , so think the Protestants , that the Arrians can give them no probable answer to their places of Scripture , and such as will seem so to some , is no imputation to their grounds , since so may , and do our Answers and Objections to some of you , who thereupon leave you , and yet you count not your grounds disparaged . For my part , I professe my self not onely to be an Anti-Trinitarian , but a Turk , whensoever more reason appeares to me for that , then for the Contrary , and so sure would you be too ; for the pretended infallibility of your Church could no longer hold you , if you thought you saw reason to beleeve it fallible , as you must do , if all weighed , more reason appeared of her adversaries side , either your proofes of her authority not to be probable , or else your Doctrinestaught by her , more contrary to reason , then her authority ( though probably founded , yet not upon demonstrations ) is sufficient to caution , and answer for ; It is true , so long as you stick to this hold upon the Roman Church , you are sure to receive no error , but which she offers you , ( and indeed you need not , for those are enough ) but that destroied ( which is apter to be destroied then most of the Protestants , as weaklier supported by reason ) then no error that a Protestant may fall into , but so may you too , and the other is but such a Priviledge , as I may have by sticking to the English Church , as well as you to the Roman ; And though this following your guide , may be able , as long as she keep her self , to keep you from some Ditches , into which you might otherwise fall , yet it may lead you unto others , and indeed there is no error but by this way you are liable too , yea , even of those which she now condemnes , since though she changed her opinion , which is neither impossible , nor unlawfull , yet you are by your blind obedience to believe that she had not , and to submit your understanding in this Question to some distinction , though without a difference . These things then I dislike in what you say .

First , Your saying , as though there is nothing to retain a Protestant from being of any error , when it shall appeare more probable to him then Truth , therefore there were nothing to keep him from those errors , whereas you should have considered , that the greater probabilities may serve reasonably to hold him without a demonstration , and the evidence of the thing , without a guide , and that if those be not ground enough for a man to fix upon , in how ill estate are those of your Church , in the Question concerning the Church , in which they follow no guide , nor have any demonstration , but professe they yeeld to her authority , but upon prudentiall motives , which kind of arguments sure may as well , and as fixedly preserve a Protestant in an Orthodox opinion against a Heretick , as the authoritie of the Church no surelier founded , can you against us : That every man should yeeld to that discourse which seemeth fairest to him , I confesse , it is alwaies , not onelie safe and fit , but also necessarie , even for them who receive the Infallibilitie of the Church , since those who beleeve that , beleeve it , because that appeares fairest to them , and as you object to us , the possibilitie of being perswaded from the truth by some wittie Author , why thinke you not the same Author may possiblie too , appeare to you to destroy your prudentiall Motives , and so consequentlie your whole Faith , which is built upon the Church , which is built upon them .

Secondlie , I dislike your seeming to beleeve , that any grounds , which are not demonstrative , are too slipperie to rest upon , as not onelie being contrarie to reason , but to your selfe , who told me before , that no more was required , then a maine advantage on one side , and that we had reason to be satisfied with Probabilities to guide our Actions in Religion , or since by them we were content to regulate all the other Actions of our life .

Thirdlie , I dislike in your own parties behalfe your saying , that a Protestant is in good likelihood to turne Arrian ( for if you meane onelie that it is possible , it concernes you as much as them ) since this seemes to inferre , that the Scriptures doe make more probablie for them ( which if they did , it is not Heresie ) and to contradict all those , whom both parts call Fathers , who thinke enough plaine in Scripture , not onely to keepe , but also to convert men from Arrianisme , as it appeares , by their employing so solelie those Armes against them , that they needed the admonition of a Heretique , to counsell them to the use of another .

Fourthlie , I dislike your saying , that after being made an Arrian , he is not unlikelie to turne Jew , especiallie , that he is likelie to be perswaded by any exaggeration of the Absurdities in the Trinitie , since both Grotius and other Authors , seeme to say , that the Jewes have their Trinitie too in the same Notion , and howsoever the Arrian is so fullie perswaded alreadie , that those are absurdities ( that perswasion being almost the forme of that opinion which constitutes him an Arrian ) yet the exaggeration of them can never worke upon him ; And for the Constellation you speak of , it were so irrationall , and so unprovable a Crotchet , that no Oratorie could ever make it seeme to a reasonable man , to have any inclination to sence ( and a foole may be made beleeve any thing , how contrarie soever to his grounds ) unlesse he be of those , who are given over to vaine imaginations , because they love darknesse better then the light , and the fault of no particular mens understanding or will , is to lead any man to condemne his grounds , for they are to be accused , not of whatsoever he concludes who holds ( or rather in this case hath held ) them , but onelie of what he concludes reasonablie according to them . Besides , for this cause it appeares strange to me , that trusting to Scripture alone , and without , meaning the Church , for my certaine guide , should bring a man into danger or parting with his Christianitie , since nothing can hold a man longer then he beleeves it , and as long as our ground , the Scripture , is by him beleeved , no man can possiblie turne either Atheist , or Jew ; and he who leaves to beleeve your ground , the Church , cannot by that be any more with-held from either : Besides that , I thinke it is impossible ( I am sure it is irrationall ) that any of you should beleeve in Christ , upon the authoritie of Christs Church , since beleeving the latter ( which claimes no authoritie but from Christ ) praesupposeth the beleife of him , and so Christianitie is not the apter to be overthrown through the absence of that , upon which it is not built : I feare rather , least your doctrine known to be grounded it selfe upon Tradition by such a way , according to which , a Jew would have much advantage of a Christian , may incline a man to Judaisme , and your sides generall slighting all waies of knowing Gods will , but onely by the Church , and then neither proving her power stronglier , nor teaching how to know her plainer , may make men sinke into Atheisme , by being perswaded by you , in letting goe other strong holds upon Truth , and receiving such weake ones from you . Not to speake of your loading Christianitie with such impossibilities as the Pillars of it , which are not absolute Demonstrations ( of which it may be scarce any thing is in nature capable but lines and numbers ) are able to beare , and using all your Wits and Industries to perswade men , that it is equallie unsafe to refuse any part of your Religion , as to receive none ; and so instead of making these your beleefs admitted for the sake of Christianitie , causing Christianitie to be rejected because of them .

Resp. But peradventure some may attribute Power to the Church without infallibilitie , whom I would have consider but what himself saith . For his Church by the Power it hath must either say I command you to believe , or I command you to professe this , whether you believe me or no. The second , I think no enemy of equivocation will admit , and the former it is as much as if it should say , I know not whether I say true or no , yet you must think I say true .

Repl. We having received a command , that all things be done decently , and in order , and this being to be appointed by them , whom either the Law of the Land , ( if that consist of faithfull ) or the consent or custome of Christians hath appointed , for Ecclesiasticall Rulers in this matter , in every place the Church ( thus restrained to the Governours of the Church ) may have in some cases ( though not to your purpose ) power without the least Infallibilitie . And for instruction ( which you aime at ) no Church can give it , yours especially being too large a body ever to meet or joyn in doing it , and if you restraine the Church to the Cleargie , ( whereof yet many teach not , and they too are too many for any man to be sure what they all agree in teaching , and when they differ , how shall I know which to follow , otherwise then by your Rule which I have answered ) their duty indeed , but not theirs onely , ( though Principally ) is to instruct us in the way to Heaven , which they doing in the Persons of Embassadors between God and us , and having no absolute Letters of Credence to bid us to beleeve that God saies , whatsoever they say , he saies , ( as much as can be wrested out of Scriptures for any present Church , being said of the Scribes and Pharisees , who yet proved themselves not infallible ) our best way is in my mind to examine their Commission , and if they can shew that they treat according to that , to submit to them , ( as in the same case we must to any of the Layetie ) or rather to God , of whose commands they are but Organs , and if not , to beware of their Leaven . Yet it may be that some man may hold that such an opinion is to be beleeved onelie , because such a Church proposeth it , and yet not believe her Infallible , since he may think her authoritie ( by reason of her Learning , Multitude , Sanctitie , Unitie and Libertie ) to be more probable then any contradicting argument , and that men are to assent to what is most probable , and truelie if he could prove to me his Major , I am alreadie so much of the opinion of his Minor , that I should joyne with him in his Conclusion .

Resp. So that if I understand any thing , where there is no Infallibility , there is no Power ; where no Power , no Unity ; where no Unity , no Entity ; where no Entity , no Church .

Repl. How you tie Power to Infallibilitie I guesse , but cannot how you tie Unitie to Power : For how many things are all men even at Unitie about , though one have no Power over another in them , onelie cemented together by their clear evidence . And how many more do whole Bodies , and Sects of men agree about without any such power , though they differ in other points , as so do you too ; Do not Protestants agree with you about manie , and the chiefest credenda , and about almost all the meerely facienda ? Though not perswaded to this agreement by the Power of any Judge which they do acknowledge ; Nay if men could be at Unitie about no thing , which were not proposed by some Guide , or defined by some Judge endued with such a power , how came all you to agree , that there is some such Guide and Judge required , since sure you receive not that upon its own authoritie , and if men may find the necessitie of a Guide and Judge , without any Guide or Judge , and remain in Unitie about that , why may they not also about whatsoever is clearly taught by God , which reason assures us to be all that is necessarie , and if you say that all things necessarie are not clearlie taught , because we do not ( though it proves not that we might not ) agree upon them , then I replie , that I may as well say , that neither is it cleare that there is a Guide , because we dissent from you in it , although receiving the authoritie of the Scripture ( out of which Cardinall Perron confesseth , that Saint Austine saith , that both the necessitie of your guide , the Church , and she her self , are to be known ) and reason , which as they may be plain in this point for you , and yet perswade us not , so may they be in all necessarie points , and yet we who make theirs our ground , not perswade one another .

As little see I why there can be no Entitie nor Church , where there is no Unitie .

For the first , though there be small Unitie among Christians , yet certainly Christians and their Religion have some Entitie , indeed if what you say were true , there were no Entitie in yours .

For the second , I know not why two parties over-valuing their differences may not conceive each other to be none of the Church , and so declare even by excommunications , and yet remain both Parts of it , ( for if a Husband misse-suspecting his Wife of Adulterie , declare her to be no longer his Wife , this cannot make her give over being so , if the bond be indeed not broken ) as well as Chrysostome and Epiphanius , both excommunicated by each other , and yet both Saints , or as particular men may by your own confession be interiorly in the Church , although seeming out of it , even to the Church her self , and so those be both of the Church between whom there is no Unity : For not onely in your own Cariophilus his words 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , but also though the persons have power , yet if the cause have not sufficiencie , I take you to agree , that an excommunication is but a brutum fulem , as Victors of the Asian Bishops : The best therefore and strictest definition ( and which I think you will not refute ) which I can give for the Church , is ( especially in that sence , as out of it there can be no salvation ) those who are desirous to know Gods Will , ( or Christs at the strictest , for I am not certaine , nor I beleeve is it defined among you , whether an explicite knowledge of Christ be absolutely necessarie to Salvation , though I know no guiltlesse ignorance of him , can bring unavoidably upon any man eternall torments ) and ready , when known , to beleeve and follow it ; and sure many of these may eternally disagree even in points which are necessarie , abstracting from particular cases , and yet their differences not exclude them from the Church , and consequentlie a Church may be without Unitie , Quod erat demonstrandum .

Resp. Now for the Controversies mentioned , besides that there is a meanes to terminate them , they be such as bring no breach of the ancient life and action of Christians , which all those opinions do , which for the most part are reputed to make Hereticks .

Repl. You saw verie well , that if [ no Unitie , no Church ] were a true Proposition , yours hath in it differencies enough to destroy its being a Church , and therefore are faine to applie what salves you can , but all in vaine : For your meanes to terminate them , doth not make them not to be before they are terminated , and consequently by your Rule yours is no Church till then . Besides , their bringing to breach of the ancient life and action of Christians proves not but one of them may be a Heresie , since you say not your selfe , that all Heresies are such ; but onelie for the most part ; and indeed to prove that , you must be able to set down what those opinions are , which before a definition may make a Heretick , which I beleeve you will not venture to doe in haste , though we much desire it at your hands , that we may know if none of them be such .

Resp. That some controversies amongst us are not resolved , is a thing necessarie amongst humane affaires , where things must have a time to be born , to encrease , to fall , and the greater things are , the greater is their Period .

Repl. It is true , that some time to be taken notice of must passe between an opinions rising , and being condemned ; but that so long they should run on , and many of your Councels having since been held , is sure not necessarie , and shewes , that you esteem not Unitie so necessarie as you pretend : some opinions I am sure you can soon enough quash , as that not long since risen in Spaine concerning Fornication being but a Veniall Sin : And whereas you say , the greater things are , the greater their period , though this be true in some things , yet not in this , for sure the greater a difference is , the greater necessitie is there that it be soon decided , and so if your decision have power to effect it , as you pretend among you it hath , it must fall as soon as it is born , like the 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Creatures that live but a day .

Resp. Wherefore I do not see why this may hurt the Church , more then the suits , which hang in our Courts , prejudice the government of the Land .

Repl. If any of these opinions be of that importance , as that though uncondemn'd the Holders are Hereticks , as some may be , and my definition being concluded of such among you , some of these may be some of them , then sure they hurt the Church much , and more then the Suites hurt the Government , which their hanging hurts not at all , though it hurts ( sometimes unavoidablie ) the Parties . But if where there is no Unitie , there were no Common-wealth , as you say , where there is no Unitie , there can be no Church , then the Government were much prejudic'd by the Suits , as your Church by this rule , is made no Church by the differences ; And indeed if men were not agreed about the power of the Governours ( as you are not about some of your questions ) it must be a maime to the government of any Common-wealth , as consequentlie these are to the goverment of your Church .

Resp. The last point of the Authors discourse is , to shew how errors might have crept in , wherein I shall have no opposition with him , for I doe not thinke the question is , how they should creep in , but how they should be kept out .

Repl. Here Sir , I cannot but beleeve , that you intended to refresh your selfe with some Mirth , as with Musicke between the Acts ; for though both our ends be , that errors should not creep in , yet the question was , whether it were possible that they might creepe in , and to my affirmative part it conduced to shew those waies , by which either they have entred , or easilie might doe so , this shewing how they may steale in , teacheth how to keep them out , as it is an aide to the saving of a Town , to discover the breaches , which cannot be guarded without they be first known .

Resp. For the Fluxibility of humane Nature is so great , that it is no wonder if errors should have crept in , the wayes being so many ; but it is a great wonder of God that none should have crept in . This neverthelesse I may say , if the Author will confesse , as I thinke he will not deny , but that it is disputable , whether any error in sixteen Ages hath crept in , this very thing is above Nature . For if there were not an excellency beyond the nature : of corruptible things , it would be undeniably evident , that not one or two , but thousands of errors had quite changed the shape of the Church in so many yeares , tempests , dis-unions , want of Commerce in the body of the Church .

Repl. The greater wonder it were , if your Church had no error , the greater it is to me , that upon one , at most but probable , Reason , you should require all men to beleeve she hath none ; Neither doth it appeare to me disputable , whether she have or no , but evident , that she hath , not by Demonstrations , yet by Probabilities of that multitude , and weight upon which you say ( and say trulie ) that in all other cases we relie , and venture that we most esteem : whereas indeed you , as you are of the imposing Partie , ought to bring at least such proofes , that you are fallen into none , and as you are of the Infallibilitie-pretending-partie , your proofes are likewise to rise from probable to Infallible : Neither doe I conceive it to be probablie argued , it is disputable , whether this bodie of men have ever let in any error , therefore it can never let in any , since it is at least as disputable , whether the Grecians have let in any , yet you will not allow , that upon this we should adjudge to her Infallibilitie : Nay if it were demonstrative , that your Church had yet never erred , yet it would but unwillinglie follow , that she never could , since all things necessarie are so plaine ( without the confession of which you seeme to tax God ) and it is naturallie so plaine what is plaine , that I cannot but thinke it a miracle , that some one bodie of Christians among so many , should be free from any such dogmaticallie-defended error , especiallie if Truth were so indifferentlie sought after as it ought to be , and Passion were not often called to counsell , and Reason shut out of doores .

Resp. But this one Maxime , that she receiveth her Faith by Tradition , and not from Doctors hath ever kept her entire : And he that will shew the contrary , must shew how it should come to passe , that those , who lived in such an Age , would say unto our Children , this we received from our fore-fathers , as taught them by our fore-fathers , to have been received from Christ and his Apostles from hand to hand , which if it could not be , the question is resolved , that no error is in the Church of God , which holdeth her faith upon that Tenure .

Repl. Not to repeat , usque ad nauseam , what I have heretofore answered , as that others differing from you , hold upon the same Tenure that your selves have not alwaies held , nor hold not upon it , &c. I will onelie tell you what Cardinall Perron tels me of the Jewes out of Isidore , and that is , that they seeing in the book of Wisedome so cleare proofes of Christ , plotted together to put it out of the Canon , which serves not so much his turne , if it were so , as it makes against yours , and shews how that might come to passe , which you judge impossible , the Posteritie of the Jewes having been deceived by this Complot ; although pretending at least , and for ought appeares , beleeving that the Tradition of their Church is still uncorrupted .

Resp. And truely if the Author desires to examine divers Religions , let him look their maine ground wherein they relie , and see whether that be good or no : And I think amongst Christians he shall find but two , Tradition , and Scripture ,

Repl. First , I allow not of your division , for not to say now that you relie not onely upon Tradition , these Protestants , whose part in this I take , depend not onelie upon Scripture , but upon Universall Tradition too , from which they receive that , and would more , if more seemed as clearly to them so to be delivered .

Secondly , I think it reasonable not onely to examine what their Principles are , but whether they do constantly follow them , for a man may write awrie , that hath a streight Ruler , if he observe it not carefully .

Resp. And the Catholiques onely to relie upon Tradition , and all the rest upon Scripture ; and he shall see , that relying upon Scripture cannot draw to an Unitie those who relie upon it , and more then one cannot relie upon Tradition .

Repl. If all that relie upon Tradition be Catholicks , you must admit the Eastern Churches into your Communion , although you now account them both Scismaticks and Hereticks : If all Catholicks do relie upon Tradition as their onelie grounds , and Tradition be so sure and infallible , and unmistakable a deliverer , as you would perswade us , how come so manie differences between you , some ever counting those things matter of Faith which others do not ; which differences shew , if they all relie on these Questions , upon the ground you say they do , that more then one may relie upon Tradition , and neither can Tradition , any more then Scripture , draw to an Unitie , those who relie upon it ; if either neither part do , or either do not , then Tradition is not the Common Tenure of Catholicks , ( not onelie in different opinions , but even in such as are most de fide , and as both parts think nothing but a definition ( and some scarce that ) to make the Holders of the contrary to them Hereticks ) since if it were , neither could one part of Catholicks relie upon any other then the Catholick ground , neither is it to be doubted , but that side which builds their opinion upon an Hereticall foundation against another , beleeved upon a Catholick ground , would long agone have been among you exploded , and the Pope have been not onelie with so much paines perswaded , but even of himselfe readie to have past his censure upon them ; if not for their superstructions , yet for their foundation .

Resp. If I will be a Christian , I must be of one side .

Repl. If you mean I must be of one side , that is take one of these grounds , I answer , That I take both one from the other , Scripture from Tradition , though not from the present Tradition of a Part , but from the Universall one of the first Christians opposed by none , but by them , who were instantlie counted by the generallitie heterodox , and as soon opposed as known . If you mean that I must be of one side in points , I whollie denie any such necessitie .

Resp. By falling on the one side , I see my fortune in thousands who have gone before me , to wit , that I shall be to seek all my life time , as I see they are , and how greatlie they magnifie verie weak pieces . On the other side , I see everie man who followeth , as farr as he followeth it , is at quiet .

Repl. I see not but the greatest part of those who take the ground which you mislike , are yet setled and confident enough in their opinion , and if they continued alwaies seeking Truth for the love of it , I know not why they should be the lesse likely to find Heaven : Neither think I that you will say ( nay it is plaine by your own words , that you will not say ) that Saint Austine had been damned if he had died in his search , nor consequently any other in his case . And whereas you say , that all who follow the other , are at quiet as farr as they follow it , I answer , So are all who fixedly beleeve themselves to follow an infallible ( although indeed a false ) Guide , as the Mahumetans , being led by their Mufty , : Which proves Quiet , no sufficient caution for Truth , nor Securitie for Safetie , and that , supposing yours the more easie and satisfying way , it followes not that it is the more reasonable : And for what you say of a mans duty to judge himself rigorously , whether he seek as he ought , I subscribe to that opinion , and approve of your Councell .

Resp. Besides this , he must have this care , that he seek what the Nature of the subject can yeeld , and not as these Physitians , who when they have promised no lesse then immortality , can at last onely reach , to some conservation of health , or youth in some small degree ; So I could wish the Author well to assure himself , First , that there is possible an infallibilitie , before he be to earnest to be contented with nothing lesse . For , what if humane nature should not be capable of so great a good , would he therefore think fitting to live without any Religion , because he could not get such a one as himself desired , though with more then a mans wish .

Repl. What you now say , I confesse is very rationall , ( as indeed all you say , is as much as your cause will suffer ) and I require you not therefore to prove your opinions to be infallible by infallible arguments , as necessarie to be done in it self , but as necessarie to be done by them , of whose opinions their Churches infallibilitie is not onelie a part , but a ground , and that the chief , if not the onelie one , and of which an infallible certaintie is the first and main condition of their Communion , and our want of it , one of their maine Objections against us .

Resp. He that will make a judgement in an Art he is not Master in , if he be deceived , it is to be imputed to himself . The Phrase commandeth us to believe every man in his Art , he who knoweth and understandeth himselfe beleeveth not . Therefore when wee see Masters in an Art , we are not skild in , oppose us , we may beleeve we are in the wrong , which will breed this Resolution in the Author of the discourse , that if himself be not skild in all those waies in which he pursues his search , he must find himself obleiged to seek Masters , who be both well skilled , and the matter being subject to faction also , very honest , and upright men , or else he doth not quitt himself before God .

Repl. Truelie I am farr from being Master either in this or any other Art , but if for this cause I ought to doubt , and because much learneder persons oppose me , I ought to beleeve my self in the wrong , then so ought those of your part to do ; who are as Ignorant as I , we having many much more learned then they who oppose them , and take our part , though therefore I think not of my self ( what Tully in a Complement would perswade one of his Friends , that Nemo est qui sapientùs mihi possit suadere meipso , yet I dare not chuse ( as you would have me ) some Master to search for me , and beleeve him blind-fold , ( though if I would , I see no cause why to chuse any from among you , who have so many able Teachers at home ( for you confessing that the matters are subject to Faction , and it being certaine , that not onelie who are honest is impossible to be known , but that eagernesse and desire to have , what they think Truth , prevaile , makes even the honest men sometimes deviate from the line of exact honestie , and lie for God , which he not onelie needs not , but forbids , ( as is to be seen too frequentlie in the Quotations of both sides ) I conceive it the best way to follow my own Reason , since I know I have no will to cozen my self , as they may have to cozen me : Especially since neither could I build upon such a way , an assent of such a degree , as your Church requires , since such Masters , although learned , which I being unlearned may be deceived in , and honest , which all men might be deceived in , yet not infallible , could not in reason make me infallibly certaine of the Orthodoxnesse of that side , which they should chuse for me : So that what was said by the Pagan Solomon Socrates , ( who yet was no confident man of his knowledge ) 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , is my resolution too , and indeed in effect if not whollie , yet almost every mans , for those who trust their Reason least , yet trust it in this , that some other instead of it is to be trusted , and so chuse who they are to trust , against which the Arguments either from the fallibilitie of Reason in generall , or in this particular remaine equally , an ignorant man being as likely to be deceived in the choice of his Guide , as in that of his Way , and that course being rather the shorter then the better , as venturing in the same , and no stronger a Bark , onelie venturing all his wealth at once .

Resp. It is not all one not to incurre damnation for infidelitie , and to be in state of damnation ; for the man to whom infidelitie is not imputed , may be in state of damnation for other faults ; as those were , who having known God by his works , did not glorifie him as they ought .

Repl. That men may be damned for other faults concernes not our Question , nor indeed is any .

Resp. Nay , they may be damned for want of Faith , and yet not be damned for incredulitie , As for example sake , if when they have sinned , they know not what meanes to have them forgiven , though they be without fault in not beleeving , neverthelesse dying without Remission of sin , they are not in sate to come to life everlasting .

Repl. This concernes no Christians , none of which that I know differs from you in the necessarie meanes of obtaining forgivenesse for sinnes , for though you require Confession , yet you allow that Contrition will save without it : Neither do I believe , but an imperfect Repentance caused through faultlesse Ignorance , of what it is for it to be perfect , will still be accepted by him who reguards the Heart more then the Action ; indeed onelie the Action , because of the Heart , and knowes , that if he use not the appointed meanes , it is onelie because he knowes it not , else considering the manie impositions from above the great frailtie within , and the great and manie temptations without , so that to fall into no sin , were morally impossible , he who 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , generally observed what he counted himself bound to observe , if for some faults which he was after heartilie sorry for , and had sincerelie reformed , he should be damned for want of knowing more , how to purge himself from them then he could possiblie know , God would not be desirous of the Salvation of all men , and it would seem agreeable to no Mercy , nor to any Justice , except that Summum jus , which ever hath been thought condemnable in man , and consequentlie incompatible in God .

Resp. As the man who should venture into a wood without a Guide , although he did his best to have a guide , nothing lesse might fall out of his way as well as he who neglected the taking of one ; so if God sent us his Son to shew us the way of Salvation , as well is he like not to be saved who never heard of such a way , as he that heard of it and neglected it , for neither of the two goeth that way : And who goeth not on the way , is not like to come to the end .

Repl. The way is beleeving and obeying Christ , for them to whom He and his Commands are sufficientlie proposed , I mean so , that it is their fault if they know them not : In generall then , it is seeking the Truth impartially , and obeying diligently what is found sincerely , and who treads this way , though he misse of Truth , shall not misse of his favour who is the Father of it , and if he be excluded Heaven , sure God meant that he should never come thither , and desires not that he and all else should , else he would not have proposed onelie such a way , which if it were possible for any to misse without his own fault , and which he knew that many would . Truely , that no opinion , that no error is a sin without the cause of it be one ; and that God is not displeased with any man for not seeing what it is not his fault that he doth not see , is agreeable to the common Notions of Justice , and God , and it is a verie good Negative way to trie superstructions by , to see whether they agree with these grounds of all Religion , whereof , rather then beleeve such men should be damned , I would beleeve they should be annihilated , or keep your Children companie , and have poenam damni , though not sensus .

Resp. I know God is good and mercifull : But I know his decrees as farr as we know are dispenced by the order of second Causes , and where we see no second Causes , we cannot presume of the effects ; and how am I assured he will send Angels to illuminate such men as do their endeavours , that their Soules may not perish .

Repl. A carefull search of Gods , and inclusively Christs will , and readinesse to obey it , is second Cause enough ; For , for want of that second cause , we must not suppose any thing to the dishonour of of the First . As to beleeve , that they should be so punisht who do their endeavours , is to lay their damnation to Gods charge : One of the chiefe waies with which the Ancients opposed the Pagans , was shewing them that their Religion taught such things of their Gods , as no Reason would allow not to be dishonourable to the Diety . Now truely if when by this Argument we have rooted out the Pagan Gods , we lay as strange imputations upon the God of the Christians , what effect is it likely to produce , but onely to make men call for their old Gods againe , and think that we had as good kept those , who delighted in the Sacrifices of men , who deposed their Fathers , and eat their Children , as have changed hardly for the better . It is reported in the Ecclesiastical History that a Painter for drawing Christ in the likenesse of Jupiter , had his hand dried up , and certainlie they who figure him to themselves , and others with Attributes so contrary to his , and more fit for a Jupiter , do him much more wrong , then if they had drawn him Tela trisulca tenentem , with a thunder bolt in his hand . What Master , Father , or King , would not be esteemed a Tyrant , who should inflict not onelie an infinite , and an eternall , but a slight and a short punishment upon a Servant , Child , or Subject , for not doing when commanded , what the Commanders saw with all his endeavours , which he had diligently applied , he could not do ; and shall we lay such an aspersion upon that God , ( who though he be Justice it self , is more Mercifull then Just , who is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the Father of Mercies ) as that like a Pharaoh , he should exact Brick , when there is no possibilitie of getting Straw . You may beleeve what you think fit , but rather then I will beleeve that any mans Soule that hath done his endeavours , not onelie shall , but that it is possible it should perish , ( although not illuminated by Angels , which yet , if Illumination were necessarie , I know some way or other he should have ) rather then I will beleeve , either that any be damned for what is no sin , or that sin is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , somewhat out of our power , ( which if we thought , it would be soon out of our care ) rather then when God hath so often told us , That he desires not the death of a sinner , I will give him the lie , and say , that he desires his damnation , even as a Creature without any reference to his sin , by chalking out onelie such a way from Hell , which it was impossible for his search to lead him into , and so make him as much a worse Father then Satan , as to damne is worse then to devoure ; rather I say then this , I will make yours , or the Pagan Legend , Ovids Metamorphosis , my Creed ; nor would I be a member of the Christian Church , if this beliefe were a necessaries part of Christian Religion , but should crie out with Averroes , ( whom Transubstantiation kept a Pagan ) Sit anima mea cum Philosophis , for the excellencie , and puritie of the doctrine in all other points tending wholly to the honour of God , and the common happinesse of man , he sanctified life , constant sufferings , and wonderfull Miracles of the Divulgers of it , the wonderfull progress of it , ( not a much lesse Miracle then they ) the weak things of the World confounding the strong , and Fishermen confuting Philosothers , that a Doctrine to strict and contrarie to humane desires , and not onelie barring from so much pleasure and glory , but also makeing the Sectators liable to such crueltie and contempt , should perswade so manie , and so wise persons to leave present things in hope of future , all this and whatsoever else , any Raimond , Seband , Vives , Plesiis , Charron , or Grotius , could either more sharply designe , or more eloquentlie expresse , would not reasonablie prevaile , if such a block as such a Doctrine were laid in the way , ( of which sort your Religion hath yet more ) and that one dead flie would corrupt the whole ointment ; the excellencie of the rest of the Doctrine of Christianitie would be thought the Art , and the great and and manie miracles would be thought the Act of some evill Genius , such as befriended Apollonius , to ensnare men by those meanes into the beleef of that opinion , which so much derogates from the Maker of things , and the prevailing of it , though a very probable argument , would not serve for a Passe-Port to such an impossibilitie .

Resp. But farr more do I doubt , whether ever man , who had not the way of Christ , or even of those who walked in it , did ever do his best ( except some few , and very few , perhaps not two of Christ his greatest Favourites ) and was not so culpable , that his Perdition would not have been imputed unto himself . God of his mercie put us in the score of those of whom he saith , He will take pittie upon whom he pleaseth , and Compassion of them he pittieth .

Repl. How few their number is we will not dispute , since Gods justice is in them vindicated , and they , not He , the Author of their damnation . But neither beleeve I , that God is so rigorously just , as to stand readie to catch at a slip , ( like an Usurer for the forfeiture of a bond ) but is of long suffering and Patience , and will as well accept our Repentance , ( joyned with amendment for this neglect in our search , as for other sinns : Howsoever I am so farre from thinking your prayer needlesse , that I both thank you for it humbly , and joyne with you in it heartilie ; but 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

To conclude , I am to make two very contrary excuses ; The one that my Paper hath left some things in yours unanswered : The other , that I have answered others too often .

Of the first , I protest ( which the Reader will beleeve me in ) nothing is left out , in which I conceived any weight of Argument lay , but onelie such things , as though they were superfluous for the Logick , yet conduced to the Rhetorick of your work , an eloquent Treatise , being alwaies like a hopefull young Man , in quo aliquid amputandum .

Of the Second , My Method , or rather my no Method was one , and your own Repetitions another Reason , so that you may the better pardon me that fault , of which your self are a partie-cause .

But to seale up all , I desire you , that how little assent soever you give to my Arguments , you will be pleased to give credit to my Assertions , when I seriously professe my selfe ,

Your very much obliged and thankfull Servant .

Mr. Walter Montague his Letter to the Lord of Faulkland . My Lord ,

AFter much debate concerning the fittest expression of my duty to your Lordship , whether I ought by silence , seek to suspend your beleife of the declaration of my selfe , I have made here , or by a clear profession of it , assure you of what I may onely feare to present you with , as apprehensive of a mis-interpreted affection ; I conclude , what was most satisfactory to my first , and immediate duty to God , was most justifiable to my second ; and derivative to Nature . Therefore I resolved so soone , to give you this ingenious accompt of my selfe : The greatest part of my life capable of distinction of Religions , hath been imployed in places , and conversant with persons , opposite to the Faith I was bred in , therefore it had been strange , if Naturall curiosity , without any spirituall provocation , had not invited to the desire of looking with mine own eyes upon the foundation I stood upon , rather there holding fast blindfold by my education , to agree to be carried away alwayes after it , insensible of all shocks I met to unfasten me , and besides , I was solicited with the reproaches Protestants presse upon Catholicks , that they blindly beleeve all the Impostures of the Church , without any illumination of the Judgements , this my thoughts injoyned , the clearest information of my selfe of the differences between us I could propose to my capacity .

So at my last journey into Italy , I did imploy all my leasure to a more justifiable settlement of my beleife , as I then imagined , by a confirmation of my judgement , in what had been introduced by my birth and education . I began with this consideration , that there were two sorts of questions between the Catholicks and Protestants , the one of Right or Doctrine , the other of Fact or Story ; As this , whether Luther were the first Erector of the Protestants Faith , whether it had a visible appearance of Pastors and Teachers before his time , I resolved to begin my enquiry with the Question of Fact , for these Reasons .

First , Because they were so few , and so comprehensible by all capacities , and the controversies of doctrine so intricate , and so many , as they required much time and learning for their disquisition , onely I found my selfe unprovided for both those requisitions for this undertaking , and for the decision of the other , I needed not much presumption to beleeve my selfe a competent Judge , when it consisteth onely in the perusall of authentique Testimonies .

Secondly , I considered , that there was no one point of controverted doctrine whereon all the rest depended , but that this one Question of Fact was such , as the dicision of it determined all the rest , for if Luther could be proved to be the Innovatour of the Protestants faith , it was necessary evicted , of not being the true ancient Apostolicall Religion . Therefore I began with this enquiry , which Protestants are bound to make to answer to this Objection , to find out an existence of some Professors of the reformed Doctrines before Luthers time : for finding the Catholicks were not obliged to prove the Negative , it was my part , to prove to my selfe the Affirmative , that our Religion was no innovation by some pre-existence before that , but in the perusall of all the Stories or Records , Eccesiasticall , or Civill , as I could choose , I could finde no ancienter a dissention from the Roman Church then Waldo , Wickliffe , or Husse , whose cause had relation to the now-professed Protestancy , so as I found an intervall of about eight hundred yeares from the time , that all the Protestants confesse a Unity with the Church of Rome down to those persons , without any apparent profession of different Faith . To answer my selfe in this point , I read many of our Protestant Authors who treated of it , and I found most of them reply to this sence , in which I cite here one of the most authentique , Doctor Whitaker in his Controversie 2.3 . pag. 479. where they aske of us , where our Church was heretofore for so many Ages ? We answer , that it was in secret solitude , that is to say , it was concealed , and lay hid from the sight of men , and further , the same Doctor , Chap. 4. pag. 502. our Church alwayes was ; but you say it was not visible , doth that prove that it was not ? No , for it lay hid in a solitary concealment ; to this direct sence , were all the answers that ever I could meet to this Objection ; I repeat no more , these places being so positive to our point . This confession of Invisibilitie in our Church for so many ages did much perplex me , it seemed to me , even to offend Naturall reason , such a derogation from Gods power or providence , as the sufferance of so great an Ecclipse of the light of this true Church , and such a Church as this is described to be , seeming to me repugnant to the maine reason , why God hath a Church on Earth , which is to be conserver of the Doctrine , Christs precepts , and to conveigh it from age to age , untill the end of the world . Therefore I applyed my study , to peruse such arguments as the Catholicks brought for the proofe of a continuall visibility of the true Church down from the Apostles time in all Ages , and apparance of Doctors teaching and administring the Sacrament , in proofe of this I found they brought many provisoes of the Scripture , but this text most literall , of the fourth of the Ephesians , Christ hath placed in his Church , Pastors and Doctors , to the consummation of the Saints , till we meet in the Unity of the Faith , and next the discourse , upon which they inferre this necessary visible succession of the Church , seemed to me , to be a most rationall and convincing one , which is to this effect , Naturall Reason not being able to proportion to a man a cause that might certainly bring him to a state of supernaturall happinesse , and that such a cause being necessary to mankinde , which o herwise would totally faile of the end it was created for , there remained no other way , but that it must be proposed unto us by one , whose authority we could not doubt of , and that in so plaine a manner , as the simplest may be capable of it as well as the learned . This work was performed by our Saviour , from whose mouth all our Faith is originally derived , but this succeeding age not being able to receive it immediate from thence , it was necessary it should be conveyed unto them that lived in it , by those that did receive it from Christs own Mouth , and so from Age to Age untill the end of the world ; and in what Age soever this thred of doctrine should be broken , it must needs be acknowledged for the reason above mentioned , that the light , which should convey makind through the darknesse of this world , was extinguished , and mankind is left without a Guide to infallible ruine , which cannot stand with Gods providence and goodnesse , which Saint Austine affirmes for his opinion , directly in his book de Util. Cred. Cap. 16. saying , If divine providence doe preside over humane affaires , it is not to be doubted , but that there is some authoritie constituted by the same God , upon which going , as upon certaine steps , we are carried to God ; nor can it be said , he meant the Scriptures onely by these steps , since experience shewes us the continuall alteration about the right sence of severall of the most important places of it , that what is contained there , cannot be a competent rule to mankind , which consisteth more of simple then learned men ; and besides , the Scriptures must have been supposed to have been kept in some hands , whose authority must beget our acceptance of it , which being no other thing then the Church in all Ages , we have no more reason to beleeve , that it hath preserved the Scriptures free from all corruption , then that it hath maintained it selfe in a continuall visibility , which Saint Augustine concludeth to be a marke of the true Church , in these words , in his book Cont. Cecill . 104. The true Church hath this certaine signe , that it cannot be hid , therefore it must be known to all Nations ; but that part of the Protestants is unknown to many , therefore canno be the true ; no inference can be stronger then from hence , that the concealement of a Church disproves the truth of it . Lastly , not to insist upon the allegation of the sence of all the Fathers of the Church in every severall Age , which seemed to me most cleare ; that which in this cause weighed much with me , was the confession and testimony of the approved Doctors themselves of the Protestant Church , as Hooker in his Book of Eccles. Pol. pag. 126. God alwaies had , and must have some visible Church upon Earth : and Doctor Field , the first of Eccles. cap. 10. It cannot be , but those that are the true Church must be known by the profession of truth ; and further , the same Doctor sayes , How should the Church be in the world , and nobody professe openly the saving truth of God ; and Doctor White in his defence of the Way , chap. 4. pag. 790. The providence of God hath left Monuments and Stories for the confirmation of our faith ; and I confesse truly , that our Religion is false , if a continuall descent of it cannot be demonstrated by these monuments down from Christs time ; this appeareth unto me a direct submission of themselves , to produce these apparent testimonies of the publique profession of their faith , as the Catholiques demand ; but this I could never read , nor know of any that performed ; for Doctor White himselfe , for want of proofe of this , is faine to say in another place in his Way to the Church , pag. 510. The Doctors of our faith , hath had a continuall succession , though not visible to the world , so that he flies from his undertaking of a conspicuous demonstration of the monuments of his faith , to an invisible subterfuge , or a beleife without apparance ; for he saith , in the same book in another place , pag. 84. All the eternall government of the Church may faile , so as a locall and personall succession of Pastors may be interrupted ; and pag. 403. We doe not contest for an externall succession , it sufficeth that they succeed in the doctrine of the Apostles and Faithfull , which in all ages did imbrace the same Faith ; so as here he removeth absolutely all externall proofe of succession , which before he consented to be guided by . I cannot say , I have verbally cited these Authors , because I have translated these places , though the Originall be in English , yet I am sure , their sence is no way injured ; and I have chosen to alledge Doctor Whites authority , because he is an Orthodox Professor of the Protestant Church ; the reflection of the state of this question , where I found the Protestants defend themselves , onely by flying out of sight , by confessing a long invisibility in their Church in apparance of Pastors and Doctors ; the same interpretation left me much loosened from the fastnesse of my professed Religion , but had not yet transported me to the Catholique Church , for I had an opinion , that our Divines might yet fill up this vacancy with some more substantiall then I could meet with , so I came back into England , with a purpose of seeking nothing so intentively as this satisfaction , and to this purpose I did covertly ( under another mans name ) send this my scruple to one , whose learning and sufficiency I had much affiance in , in these termes , whether there was no visible succession to be proved in the Protestant Church , since the Apostles time down to Luther , and what was to be answered to that Objection , besides the Confession of invisibility for so many ages , to this I could get no other answer , but that the point had been largely and learnedly handled by Doctor White , and many other of our Church : upon this I resolved to informe my selfe in some other points , which seemed to me unwarrantable and suspitious in the Ceremonies of the Romane Church , since I had such an inducement as so little satisfaction in a point that seemed to me so essentiall ; and in all these scruples , I found mine own mistake in the beleife of the Tenents of the Romane Church , gave me the onely occasion of scandall , not the practise of their doctrines , and to confirme me in the satisfaction of all them , I found the practise and authority of most of the ancient Fathers , and in the Protestant refutations of these doctrines , the recusations of their authorities , as men that might erre , so that the question seemed then to me , whether I would rather hazard the erring with them , then with the latter Reformers , which consequently might erre also in dissenting from them : I will not undertake to dispute the severall Tenents controverted , nor doubt that your Lordship will suspect , that I omitted any satisfaction in any of them , since my resolution , of reconciling my selfe to the Romane Church , is not liable to any suspition of too forward or precipitate resignation of my selfe , my judgement perchance may be censured of seducement , my affection cannot be of corruption .

Upon these reasons I did , soone after my returne last into England , reconcile my selfe to the Romane Catholique Church , in the beleife and convincement of it , to be the true ancient and Apostolic all by her externall markes , and her internall objects of faith and doctrine ; and in her I resolve to live and dye , as the best way to Salvation : When I was in England I did not study dissimulation so dexterously , as if my fortune had read it to me , nor doe I now professe it so desperately , as if it were my fortunes Legacie , for I doe not beleeve it so dangerous , but it may recover , for I know the Kings wisedome is rightly informed , that the Catholique Faith doth not tend to the alienation of the Subject , it rather super-infuseth a Reverence and Obedience to Monarchie , and strengthens the bands of our obedience to our Natural Prince , and his Grace and Goodnesse shall never finde other occasion of divertion of them from the naturall usuall exercise of themselves , upon those that have the honour to have beene bred with approbation of fidelity in his service , nor can I feare , that your Lordship should apprehend any change in my duty , even your displeasure ( which I may apprehend upon the mis-interpreted occasion ) shall never give me any of the least recession from my duty , in which profession I humbly aske your blessing ; as

Your Lordships obedient Sonne Paris 21. Novemb. 1635.

The Lord of Faulklands Answer to a Letter of Mr. Mountague , justifying his change of Religion , being dispersed in many Copies .

I Was desired to give my opinions of the Reasons , and my Reason if I misliked them ; having read and considered it , I was brought to be perswaded .

First , because having been sometimes in some degrees moved with the same Inducements , I thought that what satisfied me , might possibly have the same effect upon him . Secondly , because I being a Lay man , a young man , and an Ignorant man , I thought a little Reason might in liklyhood work more from my Pen , then more from theirs , whose Profession , Age , and Studies might make him suspect , that it is they are too hard for him , and not their Cause for his . Thirdly , Because I was very desirous to do him service , not onelie as a man , and a Christian , but as one , whom all that know him inwardly , esteeme of great parts , ( and I am desirous somewhat to make up my great want of them , by my respect to those that have them ) and as an impartiall seeker of Truth , which I trust he i● , and I professe my self to be , and so much for the cause of this Paper : I come now to that which it opposeth .

FIrst then , whereas he defends his search , I suppose he is rather for that to receive praise , then to make Apologies , all men having cause to suspect that gold which were given with this condition , that the Receiver should not trie it by any Touchstone .

Secondly , He saith , that there being two sorts of Questions , the one of Right , or Doctrine , the other of Fact , or Story ; As whether the Protestants Faith had a visible appearance before Luther , he resolved to begin his enquiry with the matter of Fact , as being sooner to be found , ( because but one ) and easier to be comprehended : To this I answer , by saying , that if they would not appeale from the Right Tribunall , or rather Rule , which is the Scripture , those many might easier be ended then this one , ( we building our Faith onely upon plaine places , and all reasonable men , being sufficient of what is plain ) but if they appeal to a consent of Fathers , and Councells , whereof many are lost , many not lost not to be gotten , many uncertaine whether Fathers or no Fathers , and these , which we have , and know , being too many for almost any industrie to read over , and absolutely for any memory to remember , ( which yet is necessarie , because any one clause of any one Father , destroies a consent ) and being besides liable to all the exceptions which can be brought against the Scriptures , being the Rule , as difficulty , want of an infallible Interpreter , and such like , and being denied to have any infallibility , ( especially when they speak not as witnesses , which a consent of them never doth against us ) by one partie , which the Scripture is allowed to have by both , then I wonder not if he think such a way so uncertaine , and so long , that he was willing to chuse any shorter cut , rather then travell it : Neither do I beleeve this other to be so short , or so concluding as he imagines , for if he consider the large extent of Christian Religion , so that we know little from any indifferent Relator of the opinions of the Abissins , so great a part of Christendome , if he consider the great industry of his Church in extinguishing those whom they have called Hereticks , and also their Books , so that we know scarce any thing of them , but from themselves , ( who are too partiall to make good Historians ) if the consider how carefully they stop mens mouthes , ( even those of their own ) with their Indices expurgatorii , it will then appear to him both a long work to seek , and a hard one to find , whether any thought like Luther in all Ages , and that he concludes very rashly , who resolves that there was none , because he cannot find any , since they might have been visible in their times , and yet not so to us , ( for men are not the lesse visible when they are so , for not being after remembered ) as a man may be a Gentleman , though he know not his pedigree : So that as I will not affirm that there were alwaies such , because I cannot prove it , so neither ought they to make themselves sure there were none , without they could prove that which is impossible , and therefore no Argument can be drawn from thence ; and if it could be proved , that such a no-waies-erring Church must at all times be , I had rather beleeve that there were still such , though we know them not , which may be true , then that theirs is it , which in may opinion cannot .

Thirdly , He saies that he could find no one point of controverted Doctrine , whereupon all the rest depended , but that this one Question of Fact was such , as the decision of it determined all the rest .

To this I answer , That the Question of the Infallibilitie of the Pope , at least of those who adhere to him , which they call the Church , is such a one , as if determined , must determine all the rest , and not onely to us , but to all men , whereas this ( though granted necessarie , and determined to his wish ) would indeed conclude against us , but not for them , since the Greek Church would put in as good a Plea upon the Title of Visibility , as that of Rome , and he would be to begin anew with them , when he had ended with us .

Fourthly , He gives his reason , If Luther could be evicted to be the Innovator , his Religion is then evicted of not being the true ancient and and Apostolicall .

To this I answer , by confessing the consequence ; but he might be the Renovator , and no● the Innovator , and then no such consequence followes .

Fifthly , He saies we are bound to find an existence of some Professors of the reformed Religion before Luther , which requirie is bound upon his supposition of the necessitie of a continuall succession of a visible , and no-waies erronious Church .

Now I will first examine the sence of his tearms . By the first , I conceive by a place he cites out of Saint Austine , that he meanes visible to all Nations , but I pray , hath his been alwaies so , I mean at least ( for many Centuries ) to those Nations , which Columbus hath not long since discovered .

By the second tearm Church , I suppose he meanes a Company of Christians holding neither more , or lesse then Christ taught , ( for in a more large sence , no man denies the Church to have been alwaies in some degrees visible ) and in this sence , I not onely deny it necessarie , that it should be alwaies visible , but that it should alwaies be , for I doubt whether there be , or for a long while , have been any such .

Next , That such a one he meanes , appeares , because when Catalogues have been brought of some , who in all Ages have differed from them in things which we hold , his side would not accept of them , because they agreed not with us in all things , and yet when Campian intends to prove all the Fathers to be his , he useth onely this course of instancing , in some things wherein they agree with him , ( though sometimes not so much , but rather the contrary ought to be inferred , as in the instance of Polycarpus , for comparing his words with the Historie , it will appear , that he concluded him a Papist for not being perswaded by the Pope ) though they differed from them in many other , as indeed all the notable Fathers did in more then one point . I will therefore say , that if this be required to shewing that a Church hath been ever visible , it is , more then either part can do , and therefore I hope they will come upon better consideration to confesse that not necessarie for us to do , which is impossible for themselves . For let any man look into Antiquitie , I will not say without all prejudice , but without an absolute Resolution of seeing nothing in it that contradicts his present beleefe , and if he find not some opinions of the Church of Rome as unknown unto Antiquity , as either he , or I ; as the Popes Indulgences having power to deliver out of Purgatorie , confest by Bishop Fisher , and Alphonsus de Castro , where they treat of Indulgences , if he find not others at first unknown , after known , but not held de fide , which are so at Rome , as Prayer to Saints , their enjoying the Beatificall Vision before the day of Judgement , Tom. 9. An. 726. de fide & Simbol . the Assumpti of the Blessed Virgin , and herbeing free from all actuall sin , if he find not some wholly unknown , and absolutely condemned , which we condemne , as the lawfullnesse of Picturing God the Father , whereof the first is confest by Barronius in the Margent to an Epistle of a Pope , 2 Lib. C. 2. which saies the same , and the latter to be found in many places of Saint Austine , Lactantius , and others , nay if he find not that all the Doctors , Saints , Martyrs of the two first Ages ( I mean as many as are now extant , and speak of it ) held something , which both parts condemne , as the opinions of the Chiliasts ; If I say , he find not this , or I shew him not that he might have found , it I professe I will be ready to spend my life for that Church , against which I now employ my Pen : So that this will be the end , neither of your Churches have been alwaies visible , onely the difference is this , that we are most troubled to shew our church in the Latter , and more corrupt Ages , and they theirs in the first and purest , that we can least find ours at night , and they theirs at Noone . And whereas he expects that Doctor White should stand to this , to confesse his Religion false , if a continuall descent of it cannot be demonstrated , if he himself will please to grant as much as he exacts , if he but continue in this resolution , and in this search , I doubt no more but that he will soone leave to be a Papist , then I should doubt if I saw him now receiving the Communion in the Kings Chappell , that he had done it already .

Sixtly , His Reasons for the necessitie of the Visibility follow , because the contrary were a derogation from Gods Power or Providence .

I anser , To say he could not keep the Truth exactly in mens beleefe , were to derogate from Gods Power , to say he had not given sufficient meanes to find the Truth , and yet damned men for error , the first would be a derogation from his Providence , the second from his Justice , but to say he suffers men to erre , who neglect the meanes of not erring , and that he damnes none for a meer error , in which the will hath no part , and consequently the man no fault , derogates from none of the three , but saies he , this is repugnant to the maine reason why God hath a Church upon Earth , to be the conserver of the Doctrine of Christ , and to conveigh it from Age to Age.

I answer , To conserve it is every mans duty , but such as they may all faile in , and indeed is rather the the form of the Church , then the end of the Church , an exact conservation making an exact Church , and a lesse perfect conserving , a lesse perfect Church . As for conveighance of Doctrine , the whole Church conveighs none , whereof many ( if his be it ) have had but little conveighed to them . Particular Christians ( especially Pastors ) teach others , which it is every mans duty to do when he meets with them who want instruction , which he can give , and they are likely to receive , yet is not the instruction of others every mans maine end .

But Mr. Mountague I know perswades him , that some body of men are appointed to conveigh this Doctrine which men are to receive , onely because they deliver it , and this I absolutely deny , for we receive no Doctrine from the Church upon the Churches authority , because we know her not to be the Church , till we have examined her Doctrine , and so rather receive her for it , then it for her . Neither for the conveighance of the Truth , is it necessarie that any company of men in all times hold it all , because some may conveigh some Truthes , and others another , out of which , by comparing their Doctrine with the Scripture , men may draw forth a whole and perfect body of Truth , and though they deliver few other Truthes , yet in delivering Scripture ( wherein all necessarie Truth is conteined ) they deliver all , and by that Rule , whosoever regulates his life and Doctrine , I am confident , that though he may mistake Error for Truth in the way , he shall nerve mistake Hell for Heaven in the end .

Seventhly , His next reason is their common Achilles , the fourth of the Ephesians , which he chuseth onely to employ like his Triarios , his main Battle , leaving his Velites , his light-armed Souldiers , some places too allegoricall , even in his own opinion to stand examination .

The words are these , He hath given some Prophets , some Apostles , Vers. 11.12 13 some Evangelists , some Pastors , and some Doctors . For the instauration of the Saints , for the work of the Ministery , for the Edification of the body of Christ , till we all meet in the Unity of Faith , and the knowledge of the Son of God , unto a perfect man , and unto the measure of the Age of the fullnesse of Christ . That we may be no more Children , tost and carried about with every wind of Doctrine , &c.

Now out of this place I see not how a Succession may be evinced , rather I think it may , if that Apostle meant none .

For first , He saith not I will give , but he hath given , and who could suppose that the Apostles could say , that Christ had given , then the present Pope and the Doctors who now adhere to him .

Secondly , Allow that by what he hath given , were meant he hath promised , ( which would be a glosse not much unlike to that which one of the most wittie , and most eloquent of our Modern Divines , Doctor Donne , notes of Statuimus (i) abrogamus ) yet since these severall Nounes are governed by the same Verb , and no distinction put , it would prove as well a necessitie of a continuall Succession of Apostles , Prophets , and Evangelists , as of Pastors , and Doctors , which is more then either they can shew , or pretend they can , so that it seemes to me to follow , that these were then given to do this till then , and not a Succession of them promised , till then to do this , and so we receiving and retaining the Scriptures , wherein what they taught is contained , ( as we would any thing else that had as generall and ancient a Tradition , if there were any such ) need no more , for if he say that men are tost for all the Scripture , I answer , so are they for all their Doctors , nay , if these keep any from being tost , it is the Scripture which does it , upon which their authoritie is by them founded upon their own Interpretation and Reason , who yet will not give us leave to build any thing upon ours out of plainer places , and though they tell us , that we cannot know the Scriptures but from the Church , they are yet faine ( as appeares ) to prove the authoritie of the Church out of Scripture , which makes me ask them in the words of their own Campian , and with much more cause Nihilne pudet Labyrinthi ?

Eighthly , There followes another reason to this sence , that reason not being able to shew man a way to eternall happinesse , and without such a one man would faile of the end to which he was ordained , it must be proposed by an infallible authority in so plaine a manner , as even the simple might be capable of it , which being performed by our Saviour , it must be conveighed to succeeding Ages by those , who heard it from him , and whensoever this thread failed , mankind was left without a Guide to inevitable ruine .

I answer , That though all this granted , it proves not against us , for we have the Scripture come down to us , relating Christs Doctrine , and written by those that heard it , which the simple are capable of understanding , ( I mean as much as is plaine , and more is not necessarie , since other Questions may as well be suffered without harme , as those between the Jesuites and the Dominicans about Praedetermination , and between the Dominicans and allmost all the rest about the Immaculate Conception ) and those who are not , neither are they capable out of Scripture to discerne the true Church , much lesse by any of those Notes which require much understanding and learning , as Conformity with the Ancients , and such like .

Ninethly , The same answer I give to this , serves also to the following words of Saint Austine , for whereas Mr. Mountague concludeth , that he could not meane the Scriptures as a competent Rule to mankind , which consisteth most of simple Persons , because there hath been continuall alterations about the sence of important places .

I answer , That I may as well conclude by the same Logick , that neither is the Church a competent Guide , because in all Ages there have also been disputes , not onely about her authority , but even which was she , and to whatsoever reason he imputes this , to the same may we the other , as to Negligence , Pride , Praejudication , and the like , and if he please to search , I verily beleeve he will find , that the Scriptures are both easier to be known then the Church , and that it is as easie to know what these teach , as when that hath defined ; since they hold no decrees of hers binding de Fide , without a confirmation of the Popes , who cannot never be known infalliblly to be a Pope , because a secret Simony makes him none ; no not to be a Christian , because want of due intention in the Baptizer makes him none , whereof the latter is alwaies possible , and the first in some ages likely ; and in hard Questions a readinesse to yeeld when they shall be explained , me thinks should serve aswell as a readinesse to assent to the decrees of the Church , when those shall be pronounced .

Tenthly , He saith that the Scripture must be kept safe in some hands , whose authority must beget our acceptance of it , which being no other then the church of all ages , we have no more reason to beleeve that it hath preserved that free from Corruption , then it self in a continuall visibilitie .

I answer , That neither to giving authority to Scriptures , nor to the keeping of them , is required a continuall visibility of a no-waies erring body of Christians ; the Writers of them give them their authority among Christians , nor can the Church move any other , and that they were the Writers , we receive from the generall Tradition and Testimony of the first Christians , not from any following Church , who could know nothing of it but from them , ( for for those parts , which were then doubted of by such as were not condemned for it by the rest , why may not we remain in the same suspence of them that they did ) and for their being kept and conveighed , this was not done onely by their Church , but by others , as by the Greeks , and their is no reason to say , that to the keeping and transmitting of records safely , it is required to understand them perfectly , since the old Testament was kept and transmitted by the Jewes , who yet were so capable of erring , that out of it they looked for a Temporall King , when it spoke of a Spirituall ; and me thinks the Testimony is greater of a Church which contradicts the Scripture , then of one which doth not , since no mans witnessing is so soon to be taken , as when against himself , and so their Testimonie is more receiveable , which is given to the Scriptures by which themselves are condemned . Besides the generall reverence which ever hath been given to these Books , and the continuall use of them ( together with severall parties , having alwaies their eyes upon each other each desirous to have somewhat to accuse in their adversaries ) give us a greater certaintie , that these are the same writings then we have , that any other ancient book is any other ancient Author , and we need not to have any erring Company preserved to make us surer of it : Yet the Church of Rome , as infallible a Depositarie as she is , hath suffered some variety to creep into the Coppies in some lesse materiall things , nay , and some whole Books ( as they themselves say ) to be lost , and if they say , how then can that be rule whereof part is lost ? I reply , That wee are excused if we walk by all the Rule that we have , and that this maketh as much against Traditions being the Rule , since the Church hath not looked better to Gods unwritten Word , then to his written , and if she pretend she hath , let her tell us the cause why Antichrists comming was deferred , which was a Tradition of Saint Paul to the Thessalonians , and which without impudence she cannot pretend to have lost ? And if againe they say , God hath preserved all necessary Tradition . I reply , so hath he all necessarie Scripture , for by not being preserved , it became to us not necessarie , since we cannot be bound to beleeve and follow that we cannot find .

But besides , I beleeve that which was ever necessary is contained in what remaines , for Pappias saith of Saint Mark , that he writ all that Saint Peter preacht , as Irenaeus-doth , that Luke writ all that Saint Paul preacht , nay , Vincentius Lirinensis , though he would have the Scripture expounded by ancient Tradition , yet confesseth that all is there which is necessary , ( and yet then there was no more Scripture then we now have ) as indeed by such a Tradition as he speakes of , no more can be proved then is plainly there , and almost all Christians consent in ; and truely I wonder , that they should brag so much of that Author , since both in this and other things , he makes much against them , as especially in not sending men to the present Roman Church for a Guide , a much readier way , ( if he had known it ) then such a long and doubtfull Rule , as he prescribes , which indeed it is impossible that almost any Question should be ended by .

Eleventhly , He brings Saint Austines authority to prove , that the true Church must be alwaies visible ; but if he understood Church in Mr Mountagues sence , I think he was deceived , neither is this impudent for me to say , since I have cause to think it but his particular opinion , by his saying ( which Cardinall Perron quoted ) that before the Donatists , the Question of the Church had never been exactly disputed of , and by this , being one of his maine grounds against them , and yet claiming no Tradition , but onely places of Scripture , most of them allegoricall , and if it were no more , I may better dissent from it , then he from all the first Fathers , ( for Dionysius Arcopagita was not then hatcht ) in the point of-the Chiliasts , though some of them ( Pappias and Irenaeus ) claimed a direct Tradition , and Christs owne words .

Secondly , As useth this kind of libertie , so he professeth it in his nineteenth Epistle , where he saith , that to Canonicall Scriptures he had learnt to give the reverence , as not to doubt of what they said , because they said it , from all others he expected proofe from Scripture or Reason .

Thirdly , The Church of Rome condemnes severall opinions of his , and therefore she ought not to find fault with them who imitate her example .

Twelfthly , He addes two reasons more , The consent of the Fathers of all ages , And the confession of Protestants .

To the First I answer , That I know not of any such , and am the more unapt to beleeve it , because Mr. Mountague vouchsafes not to insist upon nor to quote any , which I guesse he would have done , but that he misdoubted their strength .

Secondly , Suppose that all the Fathers which speake of this , did say so , yet if they say it but as private Doctors , and claime no Tradition , I know not why they should weigh more then so many of the now learned , who having more helpes from Arts , and no fewer from Nature , are not worse searchers into what is Truth , though lesse capable of being Witnesses to what was Tradition .

Thirdly , They themselves often professe they expect not to be read as Judges , but as to be judged by their and our Rule , the Cononicall Scriptures .

Fourthly , Let him please to read about the Immaculate Conception Rosa Salmeron , and Wadding , and he will find me as submissive to Antiquity , even whilst I reject it , as those of their own Party ; for they to prefer new opinions before old , are faine to prefer new Doctors before old , and to confesse the latter more perspicatious , and to differ from those of former times , with as little scruple as he would from Calvin , ( whom Maldonat , 6 Cap. St. Johan . on purpose to oppose , confesseth he chuseth a new Interpretation , before that of all the Ancients , which no witnesse but my eyes could have made me beleeve ) nay , and produce other points wherein their Church hath decreed against the Fathers , to perswade her to do so againe , althoug Campian with an eloquent brag , would perswade us , that they are all as much for him , as Gregory the thirteenth who was then Pope .

To the Second I answer , That Infallibility is not by us denied to the Church of Rome , with an intention of allowing it to particular Protestants , how wise and learned soever .

Thirteenthly , He saies next , that he after resolved to inform himself in other points which seemed to him unwarrantable , and superstitious , and found onely his own mistakes gave him occasion of Scandall .

To this I answer , That I cannot well answer any thing , unlesse he had specified the points , but I can say that there are many , as picturing God the Father , ( which is generally thought lawfull , and as generally practised ) their offerings to the Virgin Mary , ( which onely differs from the Heresie of the Colliridians , in that a Candle is not a Cake ) their praying to Saints , and beleeving de side that they heare us , though no way made certaine that they do so , and many more , which without any mistake of his might have given him occasion to be still scandalized : For whereas he saith that those points were grounded upon the authority of the ancient Fathers , which was refused as insufficient by Protestants .

I answer , that none of these I name have any ground in the Ancientest , nay , the first is by them disallowed , and if any other superstition of theirs have from them any ground , yet they who depart from so many of the Ancients in severall opinions , cannot by any reason be excused for retaining any error , because therein they consent , nor have the Protestants cause to receive it from them as a sufficient Apologie , neither hath he to follow the Fathers rather then Protestants , in a cause , in which not the Persons , but the Reasons , were to have been considered . For when Saint Hierome was by this way both brought into , and held in a strange error , though he speakes something like Mr. Mountague , Patiaris me errare cum talibus , Suffer me to erre with such men , yet he could not obtaine Saint Austines leave , who would not suffer him , but answered their Reasons , and neglected their Authorities .

Fourteenthly , He speakes of his Religion super-infusing Loyalty , and if he had onely said it destroied or weakned it not , I ( who wish that no doubt of his alleagiance may once enter his mind , to whom we all owe it , but professe my self his humble Servant , and no waies his enemy , though his adversarie ) would then made no anser , but since he speakes as if Popery were the way to obedience , I cannot but say , that though no Tenet of their whole Church ( which I know ) make at all against it , yet their are prevailing opinions on that side , which are not fit to make good subjects , when their King and they are of different perswasions . For besides that Cardinall D' Ossat ( an Author which Mr. Mountague , I know , hath read , because whosoeuer hath but considered State matters , must be as well skilled in him , as any Priest in his Breviary ) tell us , that it is the Spaniards Maxime , That Faith is not to be kept amongst Hereticks , and more , that the Pope intimated as much in a discourse , intended to perswade the King of France to forsake the Queen of England ; he saith moreover , speaking in another place , speaking about the Marquizat of Saluces , that they hold at Rome , that the Pope , to avoid a probable danger of the encreasing of Heresie , may take a Territory from the true Owner , and dispose of it to another , and many also defend , that he hath power to depose an Hereticall Prince , and of Heresie he makes himself the Judge ; So that though I had rather my tongue should cleave to the roofe of my mouth , then that I should deny that a Papist may be a good Subject , even to a King whom he accounts an Heretick , since I verily beleeve , that I my self know very many , very good : yet Popery is like to an ill aire , wherein though many keep their healthes , yet many are infected , ( so that at most they are good Subjects but during the Popes pleasure ) and the rest are in more danger , then if they were out of it .

To conclude , I beleeve that what I have said may at least serve ( if he will descend to consider it ) to more Mr. Mountague to a further search , and for Memorandums in it , which if it do , he will be soone able to give as much better Reasons for my conclusion , ( that such a Visible Church neither need , nor can be shewed ) as his understanding is degrees above mine . I hope also by comparing the body of their beleefe , and the ground of their authority , the little that can be drawn out of the fourth of the Ephesians , with the Miriads of contradiction in Transubstantiation , he will come to see , that their Pillars are too weak to hold up any building , be it never so light , and their building is too heavie to be held up by any Pillars , be they never so strong , and trust he will return to us , whom he will find that the hath causelessely left , if he be ( which I doubt not ) so ingenuous , as not to hold and opinion , because he hath turned to it , nor to stay , onely because he went .

FINIS .