Romanism discussed, or, An answer to the nine first articles of H.T. his Manual of controversies. Whereby is manifested, that H.T. hath not (as he pretends) clearly demonstrated the truth of the Roman religion by him falsly called Catholick, by texts of holy scripture, councils of all ages, Fathers of the first five hundred years, common sense, and experience, nor fully answered the principal objections of protestants, whom he unjustly terms sectaries. By John Tombes, B.D. And commended to the world by Mr. Richard Baxter.

ROMANISM Discussed : OR , An ANSWER to the nine First Articles of H. T. his Manual of Controversies .

ARTICLE I. The Church of Rome is not demonstrated to be the true Church of God by its succession .

SECT. I.

Of the Title Page of H. T. his Manual of Controversies , in which is shewed to be a vain vaunt of what he hath not performed .

AMong the many Writings which have been dispersed for the seducing of the English People from the Protestant Doctrine and Communion , to the imbracing of the Roman Tridentin opinions , a Book of H. T. that is , Henry Turbervile ( at I am told ) hath been instrumental thereto . It is stiled ( as Becanus , Cost●rus , and others before had done theirs ) A Manual of Controversies , in which he pretends to have clearly demonstrated the truth of the Catholique Religion , by which he means the Roman opinions , branched by him into 28 Articles ; the truth of which he hath no otherwise demonstrated , than by shewing that there is no truth in them : Which will appear by considering that the two chief Points of the Roman Religion , distinct from the Protestant , are , the Bishop of Rome's Supremacy , and Transubstantiation of the Bread and Wine in the Eucharist , into the very flesh and blood of Christ which he had of the blessed Virgin . Now if he believe himself , that he hath clearly demonstrated the truth of these by Texts of holy Scripture , Councils of all Ages , Fathers of the first 500 years , common Sense and Experience : yet there is so little said by him that carries a shew of proof of either ; or rather there is so much in his own Writing as gainsays it , that were there not a spirit of error which doth possess men , they would not believe him . For , that he hath not clearly demonstrated the truth of the Bishop of Rome's Supremacy over the whole Church , is apparent , in that he hath not demonstrated clearly Peter's Supremacy , there being no Texts brought by him , Art. 7. to prove it , but Ephes. 2. 20. Matth. 16. 18. John 21. 16 , 17 , 18. Luke 22. 31. Matth. 10. 2. Mark 3. Luke 2. Acts 1. of which the very first proves , that other Apostles were Foundations as well as Peter , and therefore the term Peter , or rock , Matth. 16. 18. proves not the whole church so built on Peter , as that thereby he is declared Supreme visible Head over them , or over the whole church , any more than other Apostles were . Nor doth feeding the sheep of Christ , prove any other Supremacy than was in the Elders of Ephesus , commanded to do the same , Acts 20. 28. and by Peter himself , as a fellow-Elder with them , required of them , 1 Pet. 5 1 , 2 ▪ And confirming the brethren , Luke 22. 31. is no more an argument of Peter's Supremacy , than the same thing is of the Supremacy of Paul and Barnabas , Acts 14. 22. The other Texts shew nothing but priority of nomination or speaking ; notwithstanding which , H. T. p. 97. confesseth the Apostles to have been equal in their calling to the Apostl●ship , nothing at all of supremacy and rule over the Apostles and whole church is deducible from them . And for Transubstantiation , or real substantial presence of Christs body and blood in the Eucharist , that which he alledgeth is the words of institution , Marth. 26. 27 , 28. Mark 14. 22 , 24. Luke 22. 19 , 20. 1 Cor. 11. 24 , 25. which he would have it believed , are spoken without trope or figure of speech , saying , p. 130. to whosoever shall peruse the Text , Matth. 26. 27 , 28. there is no mention of any f●gure in it ; and yet p. 154. confesseth there is a figure in the word [ chalice . ] And for the Councils of all Ages , saith , p. 7. that the second and third Ages produced no Councils ; and p. 25. he saith , In this tenth Age or Century I finde no General Council , nor yet Provincial , in which any controversie of moment was decided . And for Fathers of the first 500 years , neither do any of the Fathers he cites ascribe to Peter such a supremacy over the Apostles and the whole church , as the Romanists assert ; nor would any man imagine , that Iren●●us , Cyprian , or Augustine , should intend such a supremacy to the Bishop of Rome , who knows the controversies about Easter between Polycarpus and Anicetus , Polycrares , Irenaeus , and the Asian Bishops , and Pope Victor ; and about Rebaptization , between Cyprian and S●ephanus ; between the African Bishops , about Appeals to Rome , and Ca●lestinus and other Bishops of Rome . And for the point of Transubstantiation , or real substantial presence of Christs flesh and blood in the Eucharist , the sayings of Fathers being well viewed , speak not what he would have them ; and Augustine's words cited by him , p. 185. denying Judas to have eaten the bread which was our Lord himself , must be understood as denying Transubstantiation , sith he acknowledgeth , he did eat the ●read of our Lord . As for common sense and experience , how it should demonstrate clearly the Popes supremacy , is beyond my apprehension , yea against it , sith Histories and Travellers tell me , that the Greek and other churches to this day deny the Popes supremacy . And that Christs real substantial bodily presence or transubstantiation , should be demonstrated by common sense and experience , is so impudent an assertion as no man can believe , but he that hath tenounced common sense aud experience . Nor can H. T. believe himself in that , if he believe what he saith , p. 203. The body of Christ in the Sacrament is not the proper object of sense ; p. 205. the evidence of sense is not infallible in the Sacrament ; which if there were no more said , might satisfie an unprejudiced person , that this Author doth not easily deserve belief , but deals like a Mountebank , that commends his Salves beyond their vertue ; and when p. 72. he forbids us to try by the dead letter ( meaning the Scripture ) or ●uman● reason , it is a shrewd sign that what he said in the Title Page of his Demonstration , was but a copy of his countenance , no real thought of his own heart . Nevertheless for the undeceiving of those who are willing to be undeceived , I shall examine his Writing , and shew that he hath not at all demonstrated the Roman Doctrine to be true , nor answered the Protestants objections ; and that the true Fathers , Prophets , and Apostles , and Teachers in the next Ages to them , have not taught the now Roman opinions , but the contrary .

SECT. II.

Of the Epistles before H. T. his Manual , in which too much is ascribed to the Church , and the Churches Authority deceitfully made the first point of his Treatise .

LEtting pass other things in the Epistles , with the approbation and commendation of those of his own way , as being no better than a kind of complement of one Papist with another , of no moment but with that prejudiced party , I shall onely take notice of that passage in his Epistle to the Reader , in which he saith , but not truly , It is agreed by all parties , that the Church founded in Christs blood , was the onely mistris of Divine Faith , and sole repository of all revealed truths , at least for an age or two . For this is not true of the church , but of Christ his Apostles , and their preaching and writings . And therefore it is not true , which he thence infers , that the controversies of the Church are the most important doubtless of all others , or that on the notion and eviction of her authority , all other points essentially depend for their knowledge and decision ; which in effect is as if he had said , Were there not a Pope and his council , the Scriptures would be ineffectual to know the revealed truths of God , and to decide any controversies in Religion , which I count little better than blasphemy ; nor doth he well to begin with that point ; were it that he intended to have cleared truth , he should first ( as Bellarmine and some others have done ) have examined the points of the Scriptures sufficiency , and the needlesness of unwritten Traditions , and thereupon have examined the particular points in difference , that thereby the Reader might have discerned whether the Roman church were the true church of God , sith the truth of the church is known by the truth of faith , which they hold , as H. T. himself urgeth , p. 45. Succession in the profession of the same faith from Christ , and his Apostles continued unto this time , is it by which the Church is known ; Ecclesia Christi est quae luscipit à Christo doctrinam , seu cujus fides sundatur authoritate Christi . Thomas Whitsonus Bucci , Tract . 1. Sect. 7. and therefore we must first know whether the Roman Faith be the same with that which Christ and his Apostles taught , before we can know the truth of their succession , and of their Church . But H. T. after Becanus and others , conceives it best for their design , to forestall Readers with the Authority of the Roman Church ; which being onc● setled in mens minds , no marvel if they swallow down such gross Doctrines as Transubstantiation , half Communion , Invocation and Worship of Saints deceased , Angels , Reliques , Images , Crucifixes , and the rest of their errors and abuses , wherein any that reads the Scriptures may see how far they are gone from the Primitive saith taught by Christ and his Apostles ; nevertheless having premonished the Reader of this deceitfull Artifice , I shall examine his Book in the order he hath chosen .

SECT. III.

The Tenet of the falsity of all Churches not owning the Pope , is shewed to be most absurd .

ARticle 1. saith H. T. Our Tenet is , That the Church now in communion with the See of Rome is the onely true Church of God .

Answ. By the S●e of Rome , he means the Roman Bishop , or Pope , and the Communion he means , is in the same Tenets which they hold according to the Trent Canons , and Pius the fourth his Bull with subjection to the Bishop of Rome's jurisdiction over the whole Church of Christ . In which sense the Tenet is so palpably false , and so extremely uncharitable , that it is a marvel that any that hath the understanding of a man should imbrace it , or the charity of a Christian should brook it . For ,

1. If the Church now in communion with the See of Rome , be the onely true Church of God , then that Church onely hath eternal life , for onely the true Church of God hath eternal life . Extra Ecclesiam non est salus , is their own determination , Concil. Lateran . 4. Can. 2. and elsewhere . But that Church which is not in communion with the See of Rome , hath eternal life ; Ergo , it is the true Church of God . The Minor is proved thus , That Church which believes in Jesus Christ hath eternal life : But other Churches besides those now in communion with the See of Rome , believe in Jesus Christ ; Ergo. The Major is plain from John 3. 16 , 18 , 36. & 17. 3. & 20. 31. 1 John 5. 11 , 12. Mark 16. 16. in which it is expresly said , that he that believeth on Christ ( without any mention of Peter or the Pope ) hath eternal life . The Minor is proved by their profession , and other evidences of their reality in believing ; which if any deny to prove true faith in them , he may as well deny there are any believers in Christ in the world .

2. If there be no true Churches but such as are in communion with the See of Rome , then there is some other name besides the Name of Jesus Christ given among men , by which we must be saved , and there is salvation in some other besides him , for men have salvation in that name by which they are the true church of God ; and if we be the true church of God by communion with the Pope , we have salvation by the Pope . But this is most false and Antichristian , to ascribe salvation to any other name besides the Name of Jesus Christ , as being expresly contradictory to Peter's own words , Act. 4. 12. There is no salvation in any other , neither is there any name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved , but the Name of Jesus Christ ; not Peter , or the Bishop of Rome .

3. If no churches be true churches of God , but such as are in communion with the See of Rome , then Christ died for no other churches but them . For Christ died for his church , Ephes. 5. 25. it is not said , he gave himself for them who are not his church . But sure it is very uncharitable to say , that Christ died for no other than those that own the Pope , and contrary to the Scripture , that God so loved the world , that he gave his onely begotten Son , that whosoever believeth on him should not perish , but have everlasting life , Joh. 3. 16. therefore it is false and uncharitable , to exclude all but Romanists out of the church of God .

4. If none be the true church of God , but such as are in communion with the See of Rome , then none are members of Christ , in Christ , the sons of God , but such as are in communion with the See of Rome ; for the true church of God onely are members of Christ , in Christ , the children of God , Ephes. 23. But it is false , that none are members of Christ , in Christ , or children of God , but such as are in communion with the See of Rome ; for the Apostle tels the Galatians , Gal. 3. 26 , 27. that they were all the sons of God by ●aith in Christ Jesus , that as many as were baptized into Christ , had put on Christ , v. 28 that they were all one in Christ Jesus , without any requiring of communion with the See of Rome .

5. If none are the true church of God but such as are in communion with the See of Rome , then Christ is present with none by his Spirit and protection ; but such as are in that communion . For such as are not the true Church of God , Christ is not present with them by his Spirit and protection , Rom. 8. 9. Ye are not in the flesh , but in the spirit , if the spirit of God dwell in you . If any man have not the spirit of Christ , the same is none of his , ver. 14 As many as are led by the spirit of God , they are the sons of God , 1 Cor. 6. 19. Know ye not that your body is the temple of the holy Ghost , which ye have of God , and ye are not your own , 2 Cor. 6. 16. For ye are the temple of the living God , as God hath said , that I will dwell in them , and walk amidst them , and I will be their God , and they shall be my people . Revel. 2. 1. Christ walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks . But Christ is present by his Spirit and protection with other Churches and persons , than such as are in communion with the See of Rome , even all that believe in Christ , and are the sons of God , as is apparent in that they call Jesus the Lord , which none can do , but by the holy Ghost , 1 Cor. 12. 3. they cry Abba Father , and thereby shew they have the spirit of adoption , Gal. 4 6. Can any have the face to say , that the millions of christian Greeks , and others in persecution , who servently invocated God in the Name of Christ , have not the spirit of Christ , nor are his , because they are not in communion with the Roman See ? yea , is there not more evidence of Christs Spirit among them , than is in the Roman church , in which there is so much uncleanness ▪ and so little of holiness , that even H. T. to prove its holiness , is fain to have recourse to some supposed Saints many hundreds of years since , by reason of the late scarcity .

6. If none are the true church of God , but such as are in communion with the See of Rome , then none are the house of God but they , sith the house of God is the church of God , 1 Tim. 3. 15. But that is false ; for persons not in communion with the See of Rome may be built on Christ a spiritual house , 1 Pet. 2. 5. Otherwise , besides the foundation which is laid , to wit , Jesus Christ , it were necessary there should be another foundation , on which they should be built , to wit , Peter and his Successors . But Paul saith , 1 Cor. 3 , 11. No man can lay any other foundation to build upon a spiritual house to God , but that which is laid , Jesus Christ ; and Peter himself , 1 Pet. 2. 4. tels us , Christ is the living stone , on which they are built ; and ver. 6. alledgeth the Scripture , saying , Behold , I lay in Sion a chief corner stone , elect , precious , and he that believeth on him shall not be ashamed ; therefore all that believe in Christ , though they be not in communion with the See of Rome , are a spiritual house , and a true church of God ; which is confirmed by the words of the Apostle , Eph. 2. 19 , 20 , 21. where he saith of the Ephesians , that they were of the houshold of God , and were built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone , in whom all the building fitly framed together , groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord . In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the spirit . And Ephes. 4. 4. There is one body , and one spirit , even as ye are called in one hope of your calling . 5 One Lord , one faith , one Baptism . 6 One God and Father of all , who is above all , and through all , and in you all . 1 Cor. 12. 12. For as the body is one , and hath many members , and all the members of that one body , being many , are one body : so also is Christ . 13 For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body , whether we be Jews or Greeks , whether we be bond or free : and have been all made to drink into one spirit . V. 27. Now ye are the body of Christ , and members in particular . From whence may be gathered , that communion with Christ by his Spirit , Faith , and Baptism , without any communion with the See of Rome , is sufficient to prove persons to be the house of God , and the body of Christ , and consequently the true church of God . For that which was sufficient to make the Ephesians and Corinthians the house of God , and body of Christ , is sufficient now to make English or other people a church of God , there being no more required thereto now , than was then ; and the Apostle saith , Galat. 3. 28 , 29. For ye are all one in Christ Jesus ; If ye be Christs , then are ye Abra●ams seed , and heirs according to the promise , Col. 3. 11. Where there is neither Gre●k nor Jew , circumcision nor uncircumcision , Barbarian , Scythian , bond nor free , but Christ is all , and in all . But then there was no more required to the being of the true church , or house of God , or body , but communion with Christ by his Spirit , Faith , and Baptism , without communion with the See of Rome , as the Texts alledged shew ; therefore this communion with Christ is sufficient to make us English a true church of God , without communion with the See of Rome .

7. If the first Apostolical churches were true churches afore either Peter was at Rome , or any church there gathered , then it is not necessary to the being of the true church of God now , that persons be in communion with the See of Rome ; for there is no more required to the being of the true church of God now , than was then , and it could not then be required to be in communion with the See of Rome , when there was no Bishop nor church there . But there were Apostolical true churches of God at Jerusalem , Samaria , and elsewhere , afore either Peter was at Rome , or any church there gathered ( as the History of the new Testament shews ; ) therefore it is not necessary to the being of the true church of God , to be in communion with the See of Rome .

8. If there be none true churches but such as are in communion with the See of Rome , then the churches in India and elsewhere so remote from Rome , that they never heard of the Bishop or See of Rome , nor were required communion with it , should be excluded from the church of Christ , though they hold the true faith , because they do not that which being of meer positive institution , they are unavoidably ignorant of , and consequently should be damned . But this is too absurd , sith it imputes to God tyranny , in requiring that which cannot be done , and cruelty in damning for not doing it ; Ergo.

9. If to be in communion with the See of Rome , be necessary to the being of the true church , then were the Apostles and Fathers , who in their Writings and Creeds never required this of the believers to constitute them a true church of God , very unfaithfull or defective in their Tradition , sith they did not require or teach this as necessary to the being of a true church of God ; as may be seen in their Writings and creeds . But this is false , as being contrary to their protestations of their integrity , in not shunning to declare the whole counsel of God , Acts 20. 26 , 27. and elsewhere ; Ergo.

10. If there were many Saints and Martyrs , acknowledged even by the Romanists to be such , who did not hold communion with the Bishop of Rome , so as to own him to be supreme visible head of the whole church , but did oppose him , and lived and died in that opposition , and yet were in the church of God , then they who hold not communion with the See of Rome may be the true church of God . But the antecedent is true in Cyprian , Augustine , and many more opposing the Bishop of Rome about rebaptization , appeals from Africa , keeping Easter , therefore either they must be unsainted , or else it must be yielded , that persons who are not now in communion with the See of Rome , may be true churches of God . I need not insist any longer in proving the falsity of a tenet so palpably absurd , and demonstrated to be so by Bishop Mortan in his Grand Imposture of the Roman Church , and by others elsewhere , Let 's view H. T. his proof .

SECT. IV.

The succession of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks , required by H. T. is not necessary to the being of a true Church .

THat ( saith he ) is the onely true Church of God , which has had a continued succession from Christ and his Apostles to this time . But the Church now in communion with the See of Rome ; and no other , has had a succession from Christ and his Apostles to this time ; therefore the Church now in communion with the See of Rome , and no other , is the true church of God . For proof of the major he alledgeth Isa. 59. 21. & 60. 1 , 3 , 11. & 62. 6. Ezech. 3. 26. Dan. 7. 13 , 14. Matth. 28. 20. John 14 16. Ephes. 4. 11 , 12 , 13 ▪ 14.

Answ. The succession he means , is expressed p. 45. to be a continued number of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks , succeeding one another in the profession of the same faith . This succession may be either in the same place , or some place or other indefinite , and it may be said to be continued without the least interruption for the smallest space of time , or so continued that in each age or century there hath been such a succession , though with some intermission . The succession in the profession of the same faith , may be either universal in every point , or limited to fundamentals . The succession may be said to be continued either so conspicuously , as that there is an Assembly of that people in each age , which any Christians in any part of the world did , or might know , as they do the Commonwealth of the Venetians , or Kingdom of France , o● as heretofore the Roman Commonwealth was known ; or else obscurely , so as to be known onely to themselves , and some near neighbors . The proof of this succession may be conceived to be out of History , or other clear Writings , Records , or Monuments extant , expressing persons and their faith , or else it may be conjectured from some more obscure intimations . This Author I conceive from many passages following , understands his major here thus : That is the onely true Church of God , which has had in the same place a continued succession from Christ and his Apostles to this time , without interruption any notable time in any age , of a number of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks , succeeding one another in the profession of the same faith , not onely in fundamentals , but in other points also , so conspicuously , that all Christians did or might know it as the Roman Empire , French Kingdom , or Venetian Republique may be known , and this to be proved out of History , or other clear Writings , Records , or Monuments , expressing the persons and their faith . For such a succession this Author would have necessary to a true church , which he imagines may be proved to be in the Roman church , and no other . But in this sense his Proposition is most false , and no whit proved out of the Texts he produceth , and nullifies the Roman church it self , which he indeavours so much to magnifie , as to make it to be the onely true church of God . In opposition thereto I say , 1. There may be a true church of God , where there are no Bishops or Priests at all . Which I prove , 1. From Acts 14. 23. where it is said , that Barnabas and Paul after they had gathered the churches , they returned to them and ordained Elders in every Church , which supposeth they were churches sometime afore they had Elders ordained for them ; therefore it follows , there may be a true church without Bishops , Priests , or Elders , sith those churches were such afore they had them . 2. From the definition of a true church . That is a true church which hath the definition of a true church . H. T. confesseth often this Proposition to be true . But a number of believers in Christ who have no Elders , or Priests , or Bishops , hath the definition of a true church ; Ergo , The minor is proved from the received definitions . Bellarm. Tom. 2. Controv. l. de Eccles. milit. c. 1. Ecclesia est evocatio sive caetus vocatorum , the church is the company of the called out ; and other Authors speak conformably . But there may be a ca●ling out ▪ or a company of persons called out , though they have no Bishops or Priests , therefore they may be a true church of God . 3. That company which hath the essential parts of a true church , is a true church of God ; But a number of believers professing the faith of Christ , hath the essential parts of a true church . They are the matter of a church , in that they are men , the form is faith , or the profession of it , no other thing can be rightly assigned to be essential as constitutive of a true church ; their governours , order , special gifts , and other things tending to their well-being , are common accidents , which may be , or not be , and yet the church remain a true church . Therefore a number of believers professing the true faith of Christ , without Bishops , is a true church of God . 2. It is not necessary to the being of a true church , that there be a succession of Bishops distinct from Presbyters , whom H. T. terms Priests . For 1. There are many Fathers and popish Writers , who make them but one Order at first , Lumbard . sen●ent . l. 4. distinct . 24. Apud vcteres iidem Episcopi & Presbyteri fuerunt . The Antients took Bishops and Priests for the same ; therefore with them there were churches , in which were no Bishops distinct from Presbyters . 2. Where there were two Orders , yet they were not so necessary , but that the church may be without them ; otherwise in the vacancy of the Episcopal See ( which hath in Rome it self been sometimes some years together , often many moneths and days ) the church should cease to be a true church of God ; for then it would follow , that in such vacancies the Roman church did cease to be . 3. It is not necessary to the being of a true church , that there be a profession of the same faith in every point ; for then the Roman church should not be a true church in Paul's days , in which it is clear from Rom. 14. 2. that one believed he might eat all things , another who was weak did eat herbs . Ver. 5. One man esteemeth one day above another , another esteemeth every day alike . In after Ages the differences in the Roman church it self , if reckoned , would make a large catalogue . 4. It is not necessary to the being of a true church , that the company and their profession be so visible , as that they may be discerned as the Roman Senate was , or the Venetian Republique , and French Kingdom are . For then the disciples which were assembled , the doors being shut for fear of the Jews , John 20. 19. had not been a true church of God , nor the woman in the wilderness , Revel. 12. 14. nor those that wand red in dens and caves of the earth , in desarts and mountains , Heb. 11. 38. then the Saints in persecution should not be blessed , as Christ saith , Matth. 5. 10. but cursed , as ceasing to be the true church of God . 5. It is not necessary to the bring of a true church , that there should be in it a succession of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks , professing the same faith ; for then the first company of such professors , though called out of the world , should not be ▪ a true church of God , for want of succession . 6. Much less is it necessary , that there should be a succession in the same place . For then when Christ removed the candlestick , that is , the church out of it's place , as he threatens , Revel. 2. 5. though believers should come to dwell there a thousand years after , they should not be a true church , because of the interruption of succession in that place : the church at Jerusalem after the persecution had not been a true church , if the Apostles had been scattered as well as the rest , Acts 8. 1 , 2. Doth a church persecuted and drive● out of a place cease to be a church , because they and their successors are removed out of their dwellings ? Suppose the place wasted and destroyed , shall that destroy the being of the church which was there before ? 7. Much less is it necessary that there should be a continuance without any notable interruption in each age . For there may be many hinderances of elections of Bishops , and ordinations of Priests , there may be scatterings of the Laicks , as was at Jerusalem , Acts 8. 1. and yet the being and verity of the church continue . 8. If a church must be judged no true church , because no Writings or Monuments have kept the catalogue of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks , professing the same faith , from Christ till this time , a church shall be condemned as no true church , for want of Writings and Monuments , or because they are now lost by reason of the inundation of barbarism and barbarous people , who spoil Learning and Arts , which yet Popish Writers acknowledge to have happened in the ninth Age , tearmed by Genebrard , Chron. l. 4. the unhappy age , for want of learned Writers ; and H. T. himself , p. 25. saith , In this tenth Age or Century I find no General Council , nor yet provincia● , in which any controversie of moment was decided .

SECT. V.

None of the Texts alledged by H. T. prove a necessity of such a succession , as he imagines , to the being of a true Church .

AS for the Texts he alledgeth , they are all so impertinently alledged , that it 's likely , had he not presumed he should meet with very credulous Readers , he would not have mentioned them , or at least he would have shewed how he proves his Proposition from them , it being necessary to do so , if he had a mind to instruct , and not impose on his Readers . The first Text , Isa. 59. 21. is no promise of such a succession in any visible church , as H. T. speaks of , but of a continuance of Gods Word and Spirit with the persons there meant , which seem to be peculiarly the Jews , by the Apostles alledging Rom. 11. 26. However they are onely the Elect who can be there meant , sith the promise is made good to none other , none other have the Spirit of God not departing from them , not any whole visible church among the Gentiles , from whom the Spirit of God may depart . In the three next Texts , Isa. 60. 1 , 3 , 11. Isa. 62. 6. Ezek. 37. 26. the very words apply the promises to Hieru●alem and the people of Israel , so that if they speak of any continued succession in any visible church in all Ages , it must be the Jewish , which it is certain hath had no such succession , but is broken off from the true Olive to this day ; and therefore cannot be meant of them in H. T. his sense , till they be reingrassed . The next , Dan. 7. 13 , 14. speaks not of the continued succession which H. T. imagines of every true visible church , but of the duration of Christs dominion , which shall not pass away to another ; that is , there is no kingdom which shall succeed to it , as there did to the former Monarchies , nor shall it be destroyed , as they were , but shall be continued to Christ without any succession . So that this Text mentions not H. T. his succession , but excludes succession of any other to Christs dominion . Matth. 28. 20. intimates a succession to the end of the world , of teachers , and so doth Ephes. 4. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. but not in every true visible church , nor so conspicuous , as that all may know and discern the church , as men discern the assembly of the people of Rome , nor so apparent , as that there may be produced a catalogue of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks , professing the same faith , from Christs time till now . Much less doth John 14. 16. prove such a succession , it being onely a promise of the Spirits abiding with the Apostles for ever ; which is no promise to the Bishop of Rome , or any other visible church now .

SECT. VI.

The succession pretended to be in the Roman Church , proves not the verity of the Roman Church , but the contrary .

BU● H. T. contenting himself to have set down these Texts , leaves the Reader to extract what he can out of them , and passeth on to the proof of his minor , That the Church now in communion with the See of Rome , and no other , has had a continued succession from Christ and his Apostles to this time ; which according to his meaning , is as if he had said , The Church either in Rome , or Italy , or Spain , or France , or Germany , or Poland , or any other part of the world , which hath owned the Pope and his doctrine , and been subject to his rule , and no other , has had a continued succession of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks , professing the same faith with the now Bishop of Rome , so conspicuous as that there may be a catalogue of such produced out of good records , and no other can do so . So that then if he proves his Minor , he must prove , 1. That church to have this succession continued . 2. That no other hath . Which he takes on him to do , by a catalogue of the Roman churches chief Pastors , Councils , Nations converted , and publique Professors of her Faith . But his catalogue proves not that which it is brought for . For 1. many hundreds of years there hath been no one of the Roman Popes , or very few , who have been Pastors at all in the church of God ; they have been Statesmen , have meddled with the civil affairs of many kingdoms , disturbed the Empire and many Kingdoms , advanced their base sons , who are tearmed their nephews , and their kindred , made wars with christian Princes ; but have not preached the Gospel , nor expounded the Scriptures to the people , though even the Council of Tre●t decree , Sess●● . de reform . c. 1. Sess. 23. de reform . c. 1. that they ought to be resident , because they ought to feed their flock with the Word , with Sacraments , with Prayers , and good Works , which is the onely feeding which can denominate men pastors of the church of God . But the Popes have for a long time shewed themselves neither to have skill nor will thus to feed the flock by preaching the Gospel , but use to stay the flock of Christ by their Bulls , Excommunications , and Inquisitions . 2. Of those he reckons up , p. 32. from the year 1300. five or six of them cannot be termed the Roman churches Pastors , but hire●ings , which forsook it , they being absent from Rome , and inhabiting Avignon in France , many hundred miles from Rome , seventy years together . 3. Some of them who are reckoned in the catalogue could not be Pastors at their entry , one , to wit , Benedict . the ninth , being a boy almost ten years old , as Baronius terms him , Ann. 1033. num . 6. Another , John the thirteenth , a lad eighteen years old at most , as Baronius , Ann. 955. num . 2. & 3. reckons , when they first were Popes . And if a great many of their own best Writers in their times do not bely them , there was one of the Popes a woman , and sate some years as Pope . 4. Their succession is a very uncertain thing . For 1. It is certain that Jesus Christ was never Pastor of the Roman church , as Bishop there seated ; and it is very audaciously , if not blasphemously done by H. T. to reckon him as chief Pastor of the Roman church , and to make Peter and others as Successors to him in his pastoral Office , as if it were ceased in his own Person , and transferred to another as his Successor . Nor is it likely that Peter was ever at Rome , or Bishop there , notwithstanding some of the Ancients by uncertain tradition have conceived he was . For neither were the Apostles settled any where as Bishops of one place , nor were they to be , it being against their commission , and peculiar work of planting churches in many places . And Peter being the Apostle of the circumcision , Gal. 2. 7. and his being many years in the parts about Judea ( of which the Scripture makes express mention ) it is very improbable that he was at Rome at all , certainly not so as to sit there as Bishop so many years , as some Writers do write of him . And it is more likely , if any where , he was Bishop of Antioch , where it is certain he was , Gal. 2. 11. and as good authority there is of his being Bishop there , as of his being Bishop of Rome , and therefore the succession to Peter was rather to be there than at Rome ; nor is there any proof of translation of Peter's See from Antioch to Rome . 2. Concerning the succession after Peter , there is so much uncertainty , as may shew how miserable a people they must needs be , who have no better proof for their church than such uncertain succession . For 1. There is no certainty , but difference among their own Writers , who was next after , whether Linus or Clemens , or whether both together , and the like concerning the order of Cletus , Anacletus , Clemens , as may be seen in Platina and Onuphrius , and others . 2. It is manifest , that the succession hath been through dissention about the election sometimes a great while interrupted , as Baronius confesseth , Ann. 853. num. 63. It hath fallen out , that the See of Rome hath been void above two years and five moneths , the election being delayed through contention . 3. There have been many Schisms , very near thirty , in which there have been two or three Popes at once , one opposing , cursing and condemning the other , and no clear certainty who was the right Pope , Nations and Princes being divided , some adhering to one , some to another . 4. A great part of their succession , even by the confession of their own Writers , is of Monsters , as they term them , more truly to be termed devils incarnate rather than men , so abominably wicked , that hell hath not worse in it , not worthy of the name of Christians , much less of Pastors of the church of God , not worse surely in any church , I think not the like for wickedness any where ; so that the succession of such Pastors is fitter to prove the Roman party a Synagogue of Satan , the very seat of Antichrist , than the onely true church of God . Methinks no man that thinks well of Christ , should imagine he would trust the Government of the Universal church with such men , but rather if he intended to commit that care to any one , have chosen a better race than the Popes have been to manage it . 5. Their succession is also by their own Writers said to be with such wicked practices of poysoning predecessors , corrupting Cardinals , power of notorious whores , dealing with the devil , Simony and bribes , fightings and bloodshed , as proves them Successors to Nero , rather than to Peter . So that if a man would draw an Argument to prove the Roman church to be the Mother of barlots and abominations of the earth ( as Rome is stiled , Rev. 17. 5. by the confession of their own Writers ) the story of the succession of the Popes and their lives , might convince one that is not bewitched with their sorceries , that such hath been for many hundred years together the Church of Rome . 6. It is also false , that those he calls cheif Pastors , have had a continued succession in the profession of the same Faith with the now Roman , sith it is not denied , that Pope Liberius joyning with the Arians , and subscribing to the condemnation of Athanasius , ( as Hierom in his Chronicle and Catalogue of writers , in that of Fortunatianus testifies ) did , as Bellarmin acknowledgeth , l. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 9. by interpretation , if not expresly , consent to the Arian heresie : and Pope Honorius the first in the sixth Synod at Constantinople , Act. 12. & 13. Pope Agatho being President , was condemned as a Monothelite by hundreds of Bishops , and after by other Synods ; besides what is charged on sundry other Popes even by Popish writers , as Anastasius , John the 22. &c. As for H. T. his Catalogue of Councils , Nations converted , and publick Professors of the Romish Faith ; it proves much less , that the Church now in communion with the See of Rome , has had a continued succession of Bishops , Priests and Laicks , succeeding one another in the profession of the same Faith , with the now Roman Church from Christ and his Apostles to this time . For , 1. According to his own allegation , the agreement of profession is never in any age entirely the same in points of Faith , afore the sixteenth Century and the Trent Council . In all the ages before , the most he can produce is , that after the five or sixth first Centuries , some in each age held some of the points now held by the Papists , but denied by Protestants ; the most we can find in the first ages , is some agreement in rites , and some priviledges of the Roman Bishop , taken either from forged writings imposed on the first Popes , or some sayings of Fathers misinterpreted . 2. He confesseth sundry ages , to wit , the second and third produced no Councils ; and that he finds no general council nor yet provincial in the tenth age , in which any controversie of moment was decided . 3. Of those Councils he doth produce , there is no one general Council alleged in the four first Centuries , which was held at Rome , or did acknowledge subjection to the Bishop of Rome , as now they require , and they being all or most of them of the Greek ▪ Church , which did and doth yet deny such communion with the See of Rome , as H. T. means , it is falsly said , that they prove his continued succession in the Church now in communion with the See of Rome . 4. For the Nations converted and Christian professors in his Catalogue , there were few of them Romans or converted by any from Rome , or had any acquaintance with the Roman Church or Bishops ; and therefore to make them witnesses of a succession of Bishops , Priests and Laicks in the profession of the same Faith continued from Christ and his Apostles to this time in the Church now in communion with the See of Rome , is extreme impudence and vanity : nevertheless let 's view his Catalogue .

SECT. VII .

The Catalogue of H. T. is defective for the proof of his pretended succession in the Roman Church , in the first three hundred years .

IN the first age he alledgeth Christ , and St. Peter the Apostle , Linus , Cletus , Clemens , and the Council of the Apostles at Hierusalem , St. Peter presiding Act. 15. as a general Council , and then he recites eleven Roman Bishops from the year 100 , and having said somewhat for Peters presiding , and the translation of his chair from Antioch to Rome ; he names some Catholick professors to the year 100. and the spreading of the Church over all those Countries ; to which St. Paul wrote his Epistles and some others , as France , Spain , England , and some Catholick professors to the year 200. with a falsly , so called Canon of the Apostles approved in the six●h General Synod .

Answ. That all this is little to his purpose , appears by considering . 1 That it is manifestly false , which he supposeth . 1. That because Christ is the chief Pastor of the Catholick Church rightly so termed , and the Roman Church hath arrogantly usurped the title of the Catholick Church , and the Pope is Bishop of that See ; therefore the Pope must be successour to Christ in such a peculiar manner , as no other Bishop or Pastor is ; and that the title of Vicar of Christ belongs to him peculiarly , which is the title blasphemously ascribed to him by flattering Romanists . 2. That Christ hath a successor in his Pastoral office , though the Scripture ascribe to Christ , because of his living for ever , an office which passeth not to any other , as Aarons did , Heb. 7. 24. 3. That Peter is successor to Christ in the Pastoral office he had , and no other Apostle , or Bishop besides the Bishop of Rome ; though if there were any that could challenge succession to Christ or Peter , it should be rather the Bishop of Jerusalem the mother Church , if any , where Christ Preached , and as the Apostle and high Priest of our Profession offered himself , being Minister of the circumcision , Rom. 15. 8. and Peter was Apostle of the circumcision , Gal. 2. 7. and Paul when he went to see him ( which Romanists make an acknowledgement of superiority ) went to Jerusalem , Gal. 1. 17. not to Rome , and if he were President in the Council , Act. 15. as H. T. imagins , it was at Hierusalem , not at Rome . 4. It is false , that either Christ , or Peter , or the Catholick Professors he names in the first and second ages , held the same profession of Faith with the now Roman Church in the points , wherein the Protestants , who hold the Doctrine of the Church of England , do dissent from them . 2. That if all were granted , H. T. which he saith about the succession in the two first ages , yet it doth not amount to the proof of so much as one of the twenty eight Articles he holds in his Manual , or the Articles in Pope Pius the fourth his Creed , to have been held by any of them , not the Popes supremacy , transubstantiation , invocation of Saints deceased , half communion , worshipping of Images , &c. For Peter might be President at the Council at Jerusalem , he might translate his chair from Antioch to Rome , it might be decreed lawful to appeal from other Bishops to the Bishop of Rome , chief honour might be given to the Bishop of Rome ; yet neither Peter nor the Bishop of Rome the head , visible Monarch or Ruler over the Apostles and the whole Church : mention might be made of oblation and sacrifice , yet the masse no properly so called sacrifice propitiatory for quick and dead . There 's not a word in any of Christs , or John Baptists , or Peters , or Pauls , or James , or Johns , or Judes Sermons or writings , to prove any of the points of Popery , but enough to the contrary . Nor is there any of the rest of the Martyrs or Confessors alledged of the two first ages , of whom he is able to produce any one sentence of theirs , which may demonstrate their acknowledging of any one of the points now held by the Romanists , which are by the Protestants forenamed contradicted : which will appear by considering the frivolousness of what H. T. here produceth . Peter , saith he , defined , Act. 15. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. That the Jewish ceremonies were not to be imposed on the Gentiles , therefore he had the premacy over the Apostles and the whole Church , as if the defining in a Council or Colledge did prove superiority . By the same reason it might be proved that James had the premacy , sith he spake least , and according to his sentence was the decree . Paphnutius in the Nicene Council , as Sozome●●l 1. hist. c. 22. relates , when the Council was about to forbid Priests the use of wives , defined the contrary , and the Nicene Council approved it ; was he therefore the primate over the other Bishops in the Council ? as in consequence it is which H. T. adds : Hicrom saith , Peter was Prince and Author of the decree , therefore he had the primacy , that is the supreme headship over the Apostles and whole Church , though being [ Prince and Author of the decree ] imports no more , but to give sentence first , according to which the decree was framed . But James who spake after , was he according to whose sentence the decree was framed entirely , however Peter began before ; so that by this reason James had the primacy , and not Peter . A like in consequent is this , Peter remained not always at Antioch , as all that Church acknowledgeth , nor did she ever challenge the first chair in any general Council , as appears in the Councils , ergo Peter translated his chair from Antioch to Rome : risum teneat is araici ? As if Peter did always remain at Rome ; or that because we read not of Antioch's challenge , therefore it was not made , or as if the not challenging the first chair , were because of Peters translation of his chair from thence to Rome , whereas the very decree of the Chalcedon Council , Can. 28. gives Rome the first chair because of the dignity of the City , not by reason of Peters supremacy , or translation of his chair from Antioch to Rome , of the same sort of inconsequence is the next . The Council of Sardis ( Sardica in Illyria , Anno Domini 400. Western Fathers 300. Estern 76. ) decreed , that in cases of Bishops for honour of St. Peters memory , it should be lawful to appeal from whatsoever Bishop to the Bishop of Rome , Can. 3. therefore the primacy was in Peter , and after him in the Bishop of Rome . For , 1. This Council ( whatever it were ) was not in the first or second ages . 2. Nor was it reckoned , no not by the Roman Church of old among O●cumenical Councils , much less by the Greeks who refused to be present , as Socrates relates , l. 2. c. 16. unless Athana●ius were removed for not yielding , whereto the Bishops of the East met by themselves at Philippi in Thracia , and made decrees apart saith Sozom. l. 3. c. 10. yea however in the late edition of the Councils at Paris , corrupt devices are used to gain the credit of a general Council to it , and for some advantage to the Papacy to make its Canons of authority : yet H. T. makes it to have had but seventy six Eastern Fathers , when there were three hundred Western ; and the ignorance of any general Councils establishing appeals from Africa to Rome in the sixth Council of Carthage , shews that it was not taken for an O●cumenical Council . 3. Nor doth the Canon it self decree as H. T. sets down , that the Bishop of Rome should have power to receive appeals , and to judge the cause , but in case of the deposition of a Bishop , they permit the Bishop of Rome to deliberate whether the judgement should be renewed , and then consider whether he should send some from his side who might be present at the renewed cognizance of it , and if it should seem meet , also appoint judges out of a neighbouring Province : none of which give the Bishop of Rome a judiciary power , but onely a Directory . Nor was this to be extended to any other than those of the western countreys , the Africans and Greeks ever rejecting it . 4. The very canon it self expresseth the reason of it , not any divine appointment , or ancient use , the Council of Nice having to the contrary , Can. 5. determined that such controversies should be ended in a provincial Council , but it was then proposed first by Hosius , for honour of St. Peter's memory , and the last determination of the cause to be by a Council , Can. 13. & 14. No betis that which H. T. adds , The Council of Chalcedon , Anno 451. said , All primary and chief honour according to the Canons was to be kept for the Archbishop of old Rome , therefore this is good evidence that in the first Age the primacy was in Peter and the Pope . For neither doth that Council held in the fifth Age mention what honour or primacy the Bishop of Rome had in the two first Ages , nor doth it ascribe to the Bishop of Rome any superiority , but doth expresly in that very Canon ascribe to the other Patriarchs equality with the Roman Bishop in power , however he were first in order , and this was determined notwithstanding the reluctancy of the Popes Legates . The rest is as vain . Pope Antherus Anno 238. said , Peter was changed from Antioch to Rome , Gregory in the sixth Age said , he knew no Bishop , but is subject to the See of Rome , Epist. 62. Ergo , Peter and the Pope had the supreme Headship over the whole Church in the first Age. As if the counterfeit writing of a Pope in the third Age , or the saying of a Pope in the sixth Age of what was then in use ( though not true , sith the Greek Bishops to his knowledge were not subject ) without telling them by what means it was so , were a sufficient proof either of right or possession in the first Age of so great a power as the Bishop of Rome now claims , What he adds , that the ( falsely so called ) Canons of the Apostles define , that if any Bishop or Priest ( the oblation ( H. T. ●oysts in the , word Mass ) being made ) shall not communicate he should be excommunicate , as giving suspition of him who hath sacrificed that he hath not rightly offered , Can. 9. approved in the sixth general Synod , therefore the Apostles professed a sacrifice properly so called propitiatory for quick and dead in the Mass , is as frivolous . For neither were those canons made by the Apostles , as many things in them shew , and if they were , private Masses used by Papists should be condemned , nor doth it follow there is mention of a Sacrifice and Offering , therefore in the Mass was Christ offered as a propitiatory Sacrifice properly so called , sith it might be termed , as it is in many of the Ancients , an eucharistical or commemorative Sacrifice , not a propitiatory Sacrifice , properly so called . This H. T. in the two first Ages brings for the proof of his Minor ; let us go on to view his catalogue in the next Age.

He sets down fifteen Bishops of Rome , whereof the last Pope Marcellinus was condemned in a Council at Sinuessa ( if there were such a Council ) for his Idolatry , confesseth no Councils in the second and third Ages , yet claims a Succession of Popes , Martyrs , and Confessors sufficient for his purposes , and then sets down Decrees of eight Popes in their Epistles , which have been long since proved counterfeit by Dr. John Rainold confer . with Hart chap. 8. divis . 3. in which the Forger tells us , that Pope Anacletus decreed Anno Dom. 101. that Priests when they sacrifice to our Lord must not do it alone , ( which is against private Masses , and proves not a propitiatory sacrifice properly so called in the Mass ) that the Apostles so appointed , and the Roman Church holds ( if so then the Roman Church , which now holds private Masses , holds not the same tenet it did then ) if more difficult questions shall arise , let them be referr'd to the Apostolick See ( of Rome , which is H. T. his Addition ) for so the Apostles have ordained by the commandment of our Lord ( no where extant , nor any way probable ) that Pope Alexander decreed , that Bread onely and Wine mingled with Water should be offered in the Sacrifice of the Mass , that Pope Sixtus declared Anno 129. that the sacred Mysteries and sacred Vessels should not be touched but by sacred Ministers , and that the Priest beginning Mass , the People should sing Holy ! holy ! holy ! and that Telesphorus commanded the seven Weeks of Lent ●o be fasted , Epist. Decret. Anno Dom. 139. Pius in his Epistle to the Italians enjoyned Penance for him , by whose negligence any of the Blood of our Lord should be spilt , Anno Dom. 147. Anicetus tells us , that James was made Bishop of Jerusalem by St. Peter , James and John , in his Decretal Epistle to the Bishops of France . Soter decreed that no man should say Mass after he had eaten or drunk . Zepherinus decreed that the greater causes of the Church are to be determined by the Apostolick See , because so the Apostles and their Successors had ordained , Epist. to the Bishops of Sicily , 217. And then H. T. adds , These were all Bishops of Rome , but no Protestants I hope . Which is a ridiculous passage , shewing his folly in triumphing insolently over his Adversaries upon such frivolous Allegations . For , 1. who that knows those times of Persecution confessed by himself , p. 7. and therefore the second and third Ages produced no Councils , in which many of the Popes were Martyrs , would imagine that they should busie themselves in making Decrees about sacred places , sacred vessels , hearing of greater causes , fasting in Lent , when they were in danger to be shut up in Prisons , necessitated to hide themselves , wanted perhaps food of any sort by reason of persecution ? 2. Or who that reades Authours of those and other Ages does not perceive in those Epistles the style and terms of far later Ages ? 3. But were it supposed they were the genuine Epistles of those Popes , yet there is no proof from thence of the now Roman faith held by them in the points gainsaid by Protestants , as v. g. Transubstantiation , or the Popes visible Headship over the whole Church . They might call the Eucharist a Sacrifice , yet not properly so called propitiatory for quick and dead . Pius might call the spilling of Wine , spilling of Christs Blood , signified by it , as the Cup is termed the Blood of the New Testament , because it is signified by it , Lent fast , fasting afore Mass , mingling Water and Wine might be appointed , yet no real substantial presence of Christ's Body and Blood taught , the greater causes of the Church , and more difficult questions referred to the Apostolick See , and yet no supreme Headship over the whole Church deduced thence . As for the Tale of James his being made Bishop of Jerusalem by St. Peter , James , and John , it rather makes against Peter's Supremacy , than for it , sith in that no more is ascribed to Peter than to James and John : so that we may grant him , that they were Popes of Rome , and yet aver they were true Protestants in respect of their Doctrine , though differing in frivolous ceremonies , if the Epistles alleged had been their own , ( which is altogether improbable ) and slight the folly of H. T. in triumphing afore the victory .

His catalogue of catholick Professors to the year 300. is in like manner ridiculous , some of them being of the African , A●ian , and Greek Churches , that had no such communion with the See of Rome as H. T. makes necessary to the being of a true Church ; yea it is well known that Cyprian Bishop of Carthage , and other African Bishops opposed Stephen and Cornelius Bishops of Rome about Appeals to Roms , and in the point of Rebaptization of the baptized by Hereticks , which was afterward determined by the authority of the Nicene Council , not by the bare authority of the Roman Bishops . Nor is one word brought by H. T. that shews they held the same faith which the Roman Church now holds in opposition to the Protestants . Thus have I examined his catalogue for the first three hundred years , which were the best and purest times of the Church , as being the times of the ten great Persecutions , and have not found the Succession which H. T. asserts . Let 's view the rest .

SECT. VIII .

The Catalogue of H. T. is defective in proof of his pretended Succession in the Roman Church in the fourth and fifth Centuries .

IN the fourth Age he begins with a catalogue of catholick Professors to the year 400. of whom some were of the African Churches , some of the Greek , some of the Asiatick , some of the Latin Churches : but he shews not that any one either owned the Popes Supremacy , or the Doctrine of the Romanists , which he maintains against the Protestants . Sure Hierom was no Assertor of the Papacy , who in his Epistle to Euagrius makes Bishops and Presbyters the same , and the Bishop of Rome of no higher , but of the same merit and Priesthood with the Bishop of Eugubium . And for the Nations converted which he mentions , there were some of them , as Indians and Ethiopians , who it is not likely ever heard of the Roman Church , nor had any conversion from them . No● is it likely that any of them either owned the Popes or Church of Rome's Supremacy , or any point of Doctrine , they now hold in opposition to the Protestants .

As for the fourteen Popes of this century , what ever their succession were , ( which is not without question ) yet that they did assert as due to them such a Supremacy as the Popes now claim , or that faith , which now the Papists hold in opposition to the Protestants , cannot be proved . The same may be said of the two general Councils he mentions in the fourth century , to wit , the first Nicene , and the first Constantinopolitan : which never ascribed to the Bishop of Rome any more power than to the Bishops of Alexandria and Constantinople , nor after them the Ephesin and Chalcedonian in the fifth century . H. T. himself saith onely , The first Nicene Council was approved by Pope Sylvester , but doth not affirm that either he called it , or was present at it , or was President of it , And it being confessed that Hosius Bishop of Corduba was President there by Bellarmine himself , lib. 1. de concil . & Eccl. c. 19. tom ▪ 2. controv . he imagines , but proves not Hosius to have been the Popes Legate out of the Council , or any one that was there . And whereas H. T. saith , The first Constantinopolitan Council ( Fathers 1. 50. ) Pope Damasus pre●iding , Anno 381. against Macedonius , it is contradicted by Bellarmine in the same place . It is also manifest that the Roman Pope was not President there , but Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople : of which thing the cause is , because the Roman Pope was neither present by himself , nor by his Legates . What he adds of Pope Caelestin his presi●ing in the Council at Ephesus against Nestorius , Anno 431. is not true , sith it is manifest from the subscription to the Council , that Cyril of Al●xandria was President there , and with him Juvenal of Jerusalem . And though it be said , that Cyril held the place of Pope Caelestinus , yet that was in giving suffrage to shew the agreement of the Patriarchs , not in presidency , or if in presidency , yet so as to be president , suo jure , by his own right , as one of the Patriarchs without deputation from Rome . H. T. adds , The Chalcedon Council ( Fathers 600. ) Pope Leo presiding , Anno Dom 451. against Eutyches . But Pope Leo was president onely by his Legates , and together with them Anatolius Patriarch of Constantinople , and Juvenal of Jerusalem , did preside . And when the Popes Legates opposed the ascribing to the Patriarch of Constantinople equal authority and privileges with the Bishop of Rome , yet the six hundred Fathers determined for the Patriarch of Constantinople .

But what do the Councils in these two Ages say for H. T. his Minor ? He brings some passages out of the Arabick Canons and the Decrees , as if the Nicene Council asserted the Popes supremacy and the real presence . But those Arabick canons are of no credit , being but lately ( as they say ) brought by a certain Jesuit from the Patriarch of Alexandria , and those variously published by Pisanus and Turrian , in which are eighty canons : whereas of old in the Nicene Synod there were but twenty , and the Letter of the African Bishops ( of whom Augustin was one ) in the sixth Synod at Carthage written to the Pope of Rome , assuring that the copies of the Nicene canons which Cecilian Bishop of Carthage brought from Nice , and the copies they had from Cyril of Alexandria and Atticus of Constantinople , had not the canon about Appeals to Rome from all parts , which three Bishops of Rome alleged ; but the true canons of the Nicene council , to wit , the fifth and the sixth being against the arrogated power about appeals to the Bishop of Rome , in vain doth H. T. obtrude his nine and thirtieth and the threescore and fifth Can. Arab. for the Popes supremacy and prayer for the dead . And for the canon , that forbids Deacons to give the Eucharist Presbyters being present , ( which he bring for the countenancing of the Sacrifice of the Mass ) the genuine words of the canon mention not a power in priests ( as he terms them ) to offer sacrifice , which Deacons have not , but a restraint of Deacons from that giving the Eucharist , Presbyters being present , which they might do in their absence . And for the other testimonies which he fetcheth out of the Decretals , for Baptisms , purging away sin , and the unbloody Sacrifice , they are of no validity , being not taken out of the acts of the Council , but the compiler of the canon-law , who thrust into the canon-law all sorts of Determinations , whether they were chaff or wheat , genuine or supposititious . And yet if they were genuine they may have a sense agreeing with protestant doctrine .

The Decree of the first Constantinopolitan Council against Macedonius , which decreed the Bishop of Constantinople to be chief next to the Bishop of Rome , proves not that the Fathers then ascribed to the Bishop of Rome such a supremacy of power as now the Popes arrogate over all Bishops , but the contrary . For it doth make the Bishop of Constantinople a chief , not under the Bishop of Rome , but next him , and ascribes to him honour and dignity alike with the Bishop of Rome , though in order of mentioning , sitting and some such like acts it prefers the bishop of Rome .

In the first Ephesin council , if Peter were defined Head and Prince of the Apostles , yet they never meant thereby superiority and power over them , but priority in order , and excellency in virtue . The power of binding and loosing sins was not given to Peter any otherwise than to other Apostles , John 20. 23.

In the third action ( saith H. T. ) Pope Leo is called universal Arch-bishop . And it is granted that the Council extolled Leo , yet they made him not Universal Bishop over all bishops in the world , but he was styled Occumenical Archbishop of old Rome , not by the council , but by particular men of the council , which yet did give it to John of Constantinople : but by none was that title then given to either in that sense in which now the Pope claims it ; for that very council did ascribe 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , equal privileges or Segniories to the other Patriarchs with the bishop of Rome , notwithstanding the gainsaying of the Popes Legates ; which determination was again confirmed in the sixth Synod at Constantinople in Trullo in the sixth Age. The sense in which the title of Oecumenical , or Universal Bishop was given to any of the Patriarchs was not given to them as ascribing to them supremacy & power over all bishops , and churches , as afterwards John of Constantinople affected the title , and Boniface of Rome usurped it by the means of Phocas the Emperour , but it was given to each of the Patriarchs for their eminency by reason of their great care of the churches , in like manner as Paul said of himself , 2 Cor. 11. 28. Upon me cometh daily the care of all the Churches : which was therefore put on them because of the dignity of their cities , and amplitude of the rule and dominion which was exercised there by the Emperours Lieutenants , by means whereof the bishops of those cities had the advantage of intelligence and assistance in the ordering of things belonging to many churches in a large compass , even as at this day a Patriarch at London hath an advantage for the ordering of things concerning the British and Irish churches : the regiment of the churches in those days much following the government of the Empire , as is manifest by the acts of councils and histories of those times . It is granted that in the fifth age Pope Leo affected the extolling of Peter , and did it too immoderately , and that the phrase of Peter's doing what the Pope did was in use : and this proves that then ambition had crept in among the bishops , and the affecting of vain titles increased , and that in respect of these things there was great corruption in the Patriarchs and other bishops , which grew to an extreme height afterwards ; yet neither in that age nor any other was that power over the whole church , which now the Popes and their flatterers challenge ascribed unto them without controul of the sounder part , and is yet to this day opposed by the French popish churches , and some other .

That which is added by H. T. of the Council of Eleberis in Spain , and the second of Atles in France , about Priests abstaining from their Wives , or else to be degraded , and that no man who was married could be made a Priest unless a conversion were promised , is but of provincial Synods , not general councils , about a matter onely of Ecclesiastical Discipline , not a point of Faith , about which alone is the Question , whether he can prove such a Succession as he asserts in all ages : besides the Eleberin canon supposeth they had then Wives ; and it appears that till then they did use them , and that there were married priests : but many being corrupted in their opinions of Marriage by the debasing of it as carnal , and extolling Virginity as meritorious , began to put that yoke on men , which occasioned in after ages the intolerable tyranny of denying Marriage to priests , against Gods allowance , and the practice of former ages .

The catholick professours he mentions to the year 500. were many of the Greek and other churches , who , though they held communion with the bishop of Rome in opposing the Heresies then risen , yet did neither acknowledge the Popes supremacy now challenged , nor held the Doctrine the Romanists now teach in opposition to Protestants .

As for the Nations converted , Scots , French , the Martyrs of Africa , which he mentions , it is not shewed , that either they were converted by any from Rome , or acknowledged subjection to him as the supreme oecumenical bishop , or held what the Romanists now hold against Protestants . And thus have I shewed the insufficiency for the proof of his Minor of the catalogue of H. T. of the first five hundred years , within which he included his Demonstration , which were better than the later , though not without their corruptions . I proceed to view what he saith of the sixth and other ages following .

SECT. IX .

The defect of H. T. his Catalogue for proof of his Succession in the sixth , seventh , eighth , ninth , tenth Ages is shewed .

H. T. in his catalogue from the year of Christ 500. reckons up thirteen chief Pastors , one general Council , the second Constantinopolitan Pope Vigilius prefiding ( Fathers 165. An. Dom , 553. ) against Anthimius and Theodore : but Bellarmine himself confesseth lib. 1. de concil . c. 19. that Eutychius of Constantinople was President there , though Vigilius Bishop of Rome was then at Constantinople , As for that which Bellarmine cites out of Zonaras in the life of Justinian , he cites it maimedly . For Zonaras said not that onely Vigilius was Prince of the Bishops who were present , but with him Eutychius of Constantinople and Apollinaris of Alexandria . What H. T. mentions of the definitions of the council is nothing against the protestants , nor for the Papacy .

That which he allegeth out of the third council of Carthage is disorderly placed in the sixth age , it being held , as is said , in the year 397. and is of doubtfull credit , sith it mentions Pope Boniface as then living , though he sat not , according to Onuphrius , till the year 419. but it matters not what it was , sith it was but a provincial Synod : and of the canons cited by H. T. the first is onely about a point not of Faith , concerning the celebrating the Mass , Fasting ; the other , which terms the Apocryphal books as canonical , may be expounded , according to Hierom's distinction , that they are canonical to form manners , not to inform faith . Yet this may be observed by the way , that the six and twentieth Canon of the third Council of Carthage , which was authorized by the sixth general council holden at Constantinople , in Trullo , as it is alleged by Gratian in the Decrees dist. 99. de primatibus , and by Pope Pelagius approved , denies to any the title of Chief Priest , or Prince of Priests , but alows onely this Title , Bishop of the first See : whereupon the Gloss saith , that even the Bishop of Rome was not to be called the Universal Bishop .

The determination of the Council of Mileris about Childrens Baptism is disorderly placed in the sixth age , being said to be held in the year 402. and being no general council about a point not gainsaid by most protestants , is impertinent to prove a succession of assertors of the Roman Doctrine opposite to the protestants .

That which he allegeth out of the Caesar Augustan Council , which decreed that Virgins should not be vailed till after forty years probation , makes against the Papists , who in the Trent council , allow it sooner , and practise the vasting of them afore they are twenty years old .

That which he adds of Pope John the first his Decree , that Mass ought not to be celebrated , but in places consecrated to our Lord , unless great necessity should enforce it , because it is written , See thou offer not thy holocausts in every place , which the Lord thy God hath chosen , Deut. 12. shews the Popes ignorance or Judaism , who applies this to the Mass , which was meant of Jewish sacrificing in the Levitical Law , and makes the Mass to be an offering of an holocaust , and every place consecrated by a bishop , the place that God chooseth , and also the vanity of this Scribler , who puts in his catalogue such an impertinent testimony to prove a succession of the assertors of the Roman faith , which I scarce think any sober papist would make any part of his faith against protestants , nor do I think the papists in England would be content to be tied to that Law .

In that which he adds of Catholick Professors to the year 600. he doth not shew that they acknowledged the bishop of Rome's supremacy or the now Roman faith . Yea Columbanus in this age , and after Aidanus , Colmannus , and others lived and died in opposition to the Romans about Easter .

That Austin the Monk converted England , is onely true of some part of it , and it is true also that he did in many things pervert them , and it is said he was an instigator of the murder of many British Christians better than himself : but that either he , or Pope Gregory that sent him , held the same supremacy of the pope , which now popes claim , or the now - Roman faith opposite to the protestants cannot be shewed . On the contrary , it is manifest enough , that Gregory the great refused the Title of Universal Bishop , as profane , and sacrilegious , and accounted the assumer of it to be a fore-runner of Antichrist , lib 4. epist. 32 , 34 , 36 , 38 , 39. & lib. 6. epist. 30. he allowed not Worship of Images in his Epistle to Serenus bishop of Marseiles , he allowed priests wives , nor did tie men to follow the order of the Roman church , which shews the popes then not to have been altogether so bad as in the next age . In which and throughout the rest of his Catalogue he can hardly shew a Pope that lived either the life of a Christian , or did the Office of a pastour of the church of God , if any , sure not many : but in stead of Christian pastours a generation of men of an ambitious and luxurious spirit , contending with Emperours and Bishops for worldly greatness , persecuting godly Christians , living in pomp , riot , and all kinde of wickedness , are set down as chief pastours of the universal church .

In the seventh age he reckons up nineteen Popes , whom he terms chief Pastors : of them the second is Boniface the third , who obtained of Phocas the Emperor ( who by treason had gotten the Empire , slaying his Lord Mauritius and his children ) the title of universal Bishop , detested before by Gregory the great , as profane and sacrilegious ; and Honorius the first , is the fifth condemned in the third Constantinopolitan Council , in which H. T. saith , there were Fathers two hundred eighty nine , Pope Agatho presiding , Anno Domini 680. against the Monothelites , and that in it were condemned Sergius , Paulus , Petrus , Cyrus , and Theodore , who most impiously taught , but one will and operation to be in Christ . But this Author deceitfully conceals it , that the same Council in the thirteenth action , did solemnly condemn Honorius the Pope of old Rome as a Monothelite together with the rest ; and again in the Greek edition the first Chapter , and that Pope Agatho in his Epistle to the sixth Council , doth anathematize his predecessor Honorius as a Monothelite , and Pope Leo the second , in his Epistle to Constantine the Emperor , inserted in the eighth action of the sixth Synod , which was also done in the second Nicene Council , termed the seventh synod in the last action .

As for that which H. T. adds of the definitions of the sixth Council against Priests marriage , not giving grapes , mingling water and wine , adoration of the Crosse , consideration in him that binds and looseth , invocating Saints ; it is not worth while to insist on the examination thereof , partly because some of the definitions serve not the purpose ; for though it be granted , that there ought to be a particular knowledge of the sin of him that is to be absolved by his confession of it , yet is not thereby the necessity of Popish auricular confession proved , or the Priests power judicially and authoritatively to absolve , and remit sins established , partly because they are not all points of faith , but either of disciplin , as about the marriage of men in orders , or of Ceremonies , as about the mingling of water and wine in the Eucharist ; and partly because it is doubtful whether those Canons are truely ascribed to that Council , there being some reasons tending to the contrary , and partly because if they were their determinations , there is little reason to ascribe any authority to them , after the first six hundred years barbarism , and many corruptions being gotten into the Christian Churches , and the simplicity of the Christian profession very much changed into contentions about Bishops Sees , Ecclesiastical priviledges , humane ceremonies , and such like abuses : yet , were all granted which he allegeth of the councils definitions , neither the now Roman supremacy nor faith is proved , nor from the Catholick professors , as he terms them , or Nations converted are either of them avouched in that age .

In the eighth Century things grew worse . In it H. T. reckons thirteen Popes , among whom there 's not a man , of whom their own writers relate any thing that belongs to the Pastors of the Church of Christ , to wit , the Preaching of the Gospel ; but their intermedling with the business of the Empire and Kingdoms , making Kings monks , contentions about images in Churches , enlarging their dominions , building walls , making decrees about shaven crowns and such like toyes ... Two Popes , Zacharias and Stephen the second , can hardly be acquitted from being sinfully instrumental in the deposing of Childerick King of France , and the traiterous usurpation of Pepin .

As for the second Nicene Council , in which H. T. saith , were three hundred and fifty Fathers , Pope Adrian presiding , Anno Domini 787. against image breakers , in which were decreed for images in Temples , and the veneration and worship of the Saints , Reliques , Images , and the Council of Sens about traditions , though these things are but a few of the Popish doctrins , yet we grant , that then the Popes had gotten to such heighth as to justle Emperors , and that the Churches in Communion with the Papacy were in that age and the following so corrupt , as that traditions of men and decrees of Bishops were more regarded than the written Word ; and that thereby placing of images in Temples , and their worship got into the Christian Churches to the promoting of that Idolatry in the Roman Church , which hath made her the mother of harlots , and of abominations of the earth : yet this was not done without opposition , not only in the Greek Empire , but also in the Western : Charles the great calling a Council at Frankford , which condemned the second Nicene Council .

And for the Catholick Professors , such as venerable Bede and others , though they were tainted with the superstitions of those times about monkery , and ceremonies , and ecclesiastical dignities and orders , yet that they held the now Roman faith cannot be demonstrated , nor that the Nations mentioned to be converted were converted to it . And for the miracles mentioned there is no credit to be given to them , many such tales having been made , or such miracles counterfieted in those dayes for deceiving the ignorant people : nor were they done in such manner and to such purposes , as the miracles of Christ and his Apostles were by which the Gospel was confirmed .

In the nineteenth age H. T. reckons up eighteen Popes , omitting the mention of one of them as a woman ; though a great number of Popish writers set her down as Pope , and relate the story of her sitting in the chair some years , till she travailed with child in procession . But if that were not true , yet the things related by themselves of Formosus , Stephanus , Romanus shew cruelty and wickedness in the Popes of that age , one hating and undoing what another had done , and thereby shewing that they were rather of Cadmus , than St. Peters race .

And for the fourth Constantinopolitan Council ( Fathers one hundred and one ) Pope Adrian presiding , Anno Domini 869. against Photius , and for the Pope and images , and against temporal Princes medling in the election of Bishops ; it is an argument , that the Roman Bishops were gotten then by many wicked practices to a great heighth of unjust power . And the deposition of Photius for reproving the Emperor , together with his opposition of the Pope ( whose works extant do shew him to have been of more worth for learning than any Pope in that age ) and the Epistle of Ulderick Bishop of Auspurg to Pope Nicolas the first , in which he rebukes the wickedness of Popes in denying marriage to the Clergy , do prove that the doctrin and tyranny of the Popes of Rome , did not freely pass without controul even in that age , which by the confession of Genebrard himself , Chron. l. 4. was an unhappy age for want of any writer of worth in the Latin Church .

As for the Catholick professors mentioned by H. T. in this age , that they were all of the Roman church , or professed her faith is not shewed : not that the Nations converted , were either converted by the Roman Bishops , or owned their now claimed supremacy or professed faith ; H. T. saith the Russians were converted by a Priest sent by the Emperor Basilius , and therefore had their conversion from the Greek church whom they followed , and with whom they now hold communion , not acknowledging the Bishop of Romes supremacy to this day , and therefore that instance is manifestly against H. T. his purpose .

In the tenth age are reckoned twenty six Popes , whereof there 's scarce any that may be termed a Christian , much less a chief Pastor of the Christian churches . Their own stories tell us of some of them that got the Popedome by means of Mororia a notorious whore , others by cruel practises : one , to wit Sylvester the second , by the help of the Devil , whose agents they were in bringing a deluge of ignorance and wickedness into the world , which made that age to be termed a miserable age , in which were neither famous writers , nor Councils , nor Popes that cared for the publick , by Bellarmin in his book of Ecclesiastical writers , and of it H. T. here saith , in this tenth age or century I find no general council , nor yet provincial in which any controversie of moment was decided . So that by his own confession , his catalogue of councils fails him . And for his succession of chief Pastors , it is of such persons and so uncertain a succession , and by such irregular ways , as yeilds proof that Rome was the Synagogue of Satan , not the church of Christ . Of the catholick professors added , some of them , as Dunstan , &c. were such , as it may be well doubted whether they are in heaven or in hell . And for the Nations converted , it is not proved they were of the now Roman faith .

SECT. X.

The defect of H. T. his catalogue of succession in the eleventh and twelfth age is shewed .

IN the eleventh age are reckoned eighteen Popes worse , if it may be , as bad as any in hell ; most of them magicians , if their own writers speak truth : from Sylvester the second , to Gregory the seventh , all Necromancers , saith Benno a Cardinal of Rome ; John the seventeenth or eighteenth , H. T. himself is not resolved whether , so uncertain is his succession on which he builds the truth of his church . Their practises were to poyson one another , and to set up one King and Emperor against another to advance their own greatness , and to domineer over the greatest Princes by the terror of their excommunications , and giving away their dominions : which was brought to a stupendous heighth by Hildebrand , otherwise Gregory the seventh , under whose reign Satan seems to have been let loose for the executing of vengeance on the Emperors , that had so adored Popes , as to become their vassals ( whom Pope Gregory the great acknowledged his Lord ) and committed fornication with the whore of Babylon .

Of councils H. T. names but one , telling us , that in this eleventh age about the year 1049. Berengarius an Archdeacon of Ghent ( of Aniou he should have said , mistaking Gaudavensis for Adegavensis ) began to broach his heresie ( he should more truely have said the doctrin of Christ , his Apostles , the Fathers , even Gelasius himself Bishop of Rome , in the first five hundred years , and of the most learned to that time ) concerning the B. Sacrament , affirming it to be only a sign or figure of the body and blood of Christ , not his true body and blood ; for which , saith H. T. he was condemned in the council of Lateran under Pope Nicolas the second , 1057. As also in the Roman council under Pope Gregory the seventh , Anno 1073. where he abjured his heresie in open council , and died a Catholick after divers penances done for his sin . But methinks H. T. should be ashamed to mention Berengarius his forced abjuration , in which Pope Nicolas made him say , I believe that the body of our Lord Jesus Christ sensibly and in very deed is touched with the hands of the Priests , and broken with , and rent , and ground with the teeth of the faithful , de con. dist. 2. Erg● Berengarius , which occasioned the gloss it self to say , unless you warily understand these words of Berengarius , you will fall into a greater heresie than ever he held any . And for his Catholick professors and Nations converted , wherein or how far they avowed the Popes supremacy , and the now Roman faith is not shewed by him ; nor do I believe he is able to prove , that they did avouch the Popes supremacy which is now challenged , or in all things the now Roman doctrin , though Romish superstitions , and the excessive esteem of the Popish Bishops did very much corrupt men in those days . If the ignorant devotion of one Henricus the Emperor with his wife , make any thing for the credit of the Roman papacy ; the story of another Henricus , to wit , the fourth , his wife and childs usage by Gregory the seventh and other Popes is such , as that it demonstrates the Popes of those times to have been no successors of Peter , either in doctrine or practice , but devils incarnate rather than men . And however Anselms learning seem to credit the papacy , yet in many points of doctrin he is not for the now Roman tenents , as where he saith on Rom. 12. salvation consisteth not in mans merits , but in Gods grace , and his contention with the King of England , being animated by the Pope is an evidence , that the faith of Christ was not so much professed then as the greatness of Bishops , and the unrighteous ways of Clergymen .

In the twelfth age are reckoned up eighteen Popes and three Lateran councils , of which Popes it will be hard for H. T. to shew what their faith was , or to prove they did orderly succeed , especially considering how many Antipopes were set up , and what abominable practices were used to get up into the chair , and how wickedly they lived , as men that cared not what rebellions they raised , what wars and bloodsheds they caused , not against infidels , but of subjects against their soveraign Christian Emperors ; not for the Gospel of Christ , or their lawful liberties , but for the Popes most impudent claim of freedom from subjection to Emperors , and investiture of Bishops and Abbats , things which Jesus Christ and his Apostles never granted , but commanded the contrary . Their own writers tell us so much of them , specially of Calixtus the second , Innocent the second , Adrian the fourth , Alexander the third , and their monstrous pride in oppressing and insulting on the Emperors , beyond what is to be found in any Priests of Pagan Gods towards the Princes of the earth , as shews them to be inspired by the devil , not guided by the Spirit of God . H. T. adds three Lateran councils for instauration of discipline , for the right of the Clergy , for reformation , with presidency of Calixtus the second , Anno 1122 of Innocent the second , Anno 1139. which he tells us defined little in matters of controversie , and so by his own confession prove not his succession in the profession of the same faith . As for the ends in those two councils , which he mentions , all the instauration of disciplin therein was concerning monks in the former , and in the later , the right of the clergy was about the Bishop of Romes power in civil things at Rome , and exempting of clergy men from the Senate and Consuls of Rome . Wherein the Romans desired to be restored to their ancient power in civil things , but the Pope and his council withstood it , anathematizing them that laid hands on a clergy man , yet limiting the Bishop of Rome in some sort . These are the great businesses of three hundred at one time , and one thousand Bishops and Abbats at another time . Which may shew how little the Popes and councils then regarded Christs doctrin or precepts , but minded the upholding their own inventions and their usurpations of power .

The third Lateran Council , saith H. T. ( Fathers three hundred ) for reformation , Pope Alexander the third presiding , Anno Domini 1179. condemned Waldensis the Merchant of Lyons , who taught the Apostles were lay men , that lay men and women might consecrate and preach , that clergy men ought to have no possessions or properties , that oaths were unlawful in all cases , that Priests and Magistrates by mortal sin fell from their dignity , and were not to be obeyed , &c. His tenents were here defined against , and he himself anathematized .

But suppose all this were true that he so taught , and that the Pope with his council condemned him , what is this to prove H. T. his minor , that a council in that age professed the same faith with the now Roman against the Protestants ? Are the contrary tenents any of the Articles , which in his Manual of Controversies H. T. defends against the Protestants ? do the Protestant churches in their confessions avow the same , which he here saith the council ascribed to Waldensis the Merchant of Lyons ? but to shew the ignorance of this scribler , the person who was Merchant of Lyons in France was Petrus Waldus , from whom his followers were termed Waldenses , whom I find to have been condemned in some council at Rome about that time , but in the Lateran council 1179. I find other decrees about Priests continency , the number of horses clergy men might have in their visitations , and the exemption of Ecclesiasticks from the judgement of Laicks , which it seems were the great business of reformation . As for the Waldenses there is no cause to believe adversaries in their accusations of them , especially such ignorant and malicious men as the Friers and Monks of former and later times have been . Besides the experience which after ages yeilded about their belying Wicklef , Hus and others ; our own times yeild many examples of Papists falsly reporting the tenents of Protestants . Though Bellarmin be more ingenuous in setting down the Protestants doctrin than many other writers , yet there 's scarce a controversie , wherein he doth not deal deceitfully in representing the Protestants doctrin or their arguments and answers . But the writings , professions , apologies put forth by Balthasar Lydius in Latin , shew that the opinions of the Waldenses were not such as the Papists represent them , and the words of Reinerius an inquisitor and enemy to them in his book of inquisition concerning them , doth more truely acquaint us what they were , which are thus , that whereas all other sects by the immanity of their blasphemies against God do make men abhor them , this of the Lyonists ( the same with the Waldenses ) hath a great shew of godliness , because they live justly before men , and do believe all things well of God , and all the articles which are contained in the Creed ; only the Church of Rome they do blaspheme and hate . And now we have more full knowledge of them , by Mr. Morlands history of the Evangelical Churches of Piedmont . As for the Catholick professors H. T. adds in this age , though Bernardus Abbas , commonly called St. Bernard be reckoned as a professor of the new Roman faith , and it is not denied that he was superstitious in some points ; yet he freely noted divers corruptions then arising , as the feast of the Virgin Maries conception , which tended to uphold the conceit of her freedom from sin , Ep. 174. ad can . Lugd. the opinion of merits , serm. 1. de annunt . of justification by works , cant . serm. 22. & ep. 190. of freewill , de grat . & lib. arb. of keeping the law , cant . ser. 50 : of seven Sacraments , ser. 1. de Caena Domini , of uncertainty of Salvation , ep. 107. and the Popes greatness in temporalities , l. 2. confid . ad Eugen. And for Hildegardis the Nunne , her speeches and prophecies shewed her dislike of the proceedings of the clergy even of the Popes . Noribertus and some others were noted for their superstitious waies of Monkery , Thomas Becket of Canterbury , for his obstinacy against his Prince Henry the second , whom he traiterously opposed to uphold the wickedness of the clergy , and others named , whether they were of good or bad note it is of little moment , sith it s not denied there were too many then infected with the Roman errors and superstitions . Nor is it of much advantage , that Nicolas the Monke , after Pope , converted the Pomeranians and Norwegians , that Pope being bad enough , and the conversion , if to Romish superstition , rather than Christian faith , little crediting the Romish Church .

SECT. XI .

The defect of H. T. his catalogue of succession in the thirteenth and fourteenth ages is shewed .

IN the thirteenth century are set down seventeen Popes as chief Pastors , of whom the first is Gelasius the second , who was first in the former age ; but I imagin , though it be not noted in the Errata , for Honorius the third who was a bloody Bishop , as others before him , setting up Emperor against Emperor , cruel Friers against the godly Waldenses , besides other wicked acts he did . The like were Gregory the ninth , in whose time the bloody factions of Guelphs and Gibellius happened , and Innocent the fourth whom Robert Grosthead Bishop of Lincoln withstood , contemning his excommunication , and being dead was such a terror to this wicked Pope as to hasten his death . Nicolas the third , whom H. T. makes the converter of the Pomeranians and Norwegians , raised the quarrel between Peter of Arragon and Charles of France for Sicily , whence grew the massacre of the French called the Sicilian Vespers , and the last and worst of them , Boniface the eighth is said to have entred like a Fox , reigned like a Lyon , died like a dog . H. T. adds two general Councils : the fourth Lateran council ( Fathers 1285. ) Pope Innocent the third presiding , Anno 1215. And tells us , that this Council desined that the universal Church of the faithful , is one out of which no man is saved . Which definition we approve , and thereby the doctrin of the Protestants is confirmed ; who teach , that the Catholick Church we believe , is the invisible Church of true believers ; and that the Catholick Church is not only the Roman Church , and those who subject themselves to the Bishop of Rome , and profess the same faith with the now Roman Church : but all the believers who believe the doctrin of the Gospel taught by Christ and his Apostles , though they neither know nor own the Roman Church in the things therein held against the Protestants , nor acknowledge any superiority of the Bishop of Rome , are members of the Catholick Church ; and that it is not the Church of Rome ( which is falsly called Catholick ) out of which none can be saved , but the universal Church of the faithful ; in which who ever is by true faith in Christ he may be saved , though he disclaims the Bishop of Rome as Antichrist , and the faction or party joyning with him as the Synagogue of Satan ; and consequently , that it is not as H. T. saith in his Epistle to the Reader , the most important controversie to know the notion and authority of the Church ; but to know the true faith , by which alone the true Church is known ; and it is a most impudent assertion , which H. T. takes on him in his first Article to maintain , that the Church now in communion with the See of Rome is the only true Church of God , unless he can prove none are believers but they . So that this very definition of the Lateran council is sufficient to overthrow the main drift of H. T. in this book , and to shew how heedless or impudent a writer he is .

H. T. tells us also that the fourth Lateran council defin'd in the profession of faith , can. 1. that the true body and blood of Christ is in the Sacrament of the Altar under the forms of bread and wine , the bread being transubstantiated by the divine power into the body , and the wine into the blood . Which is granted , if it be true , that the Council it self did define any thing , and not Pope Innocent himself three years after the Council . Platina saith in his life , that many things then came into consultation indeed , and yet not any thing could be openly decreed . But were it the Council or the Pope alone that thus decreed , it was a most bold and presumptuous act in either or both to make that a point of faith , of which , as Bellarm. tom. 3. cont. l. 3 , c. 23. confesseth . Scotus in quartum sent . dist. 11. q. 3. said , that the tenent of transubstantiation was no tenet of faith before the Lateran Council , and Scotus and Cameracensis expresly say , that neither by words of Scripture , nor by the Creeds , nor sayings of the ancients are we compelled to the tenet of transubstantiation . And Cardinal Cairt . in 3. Aq. q. 75. art. 1. saith , that nothing out of the Gospel doth appear to compel us to understand these words [ this is my body ] properly . To the same purpose John Fisher Bishop of Rochester , contra . capt . Babylon c. 1. For which reason Cuthbert Tonstal l. 1. of the Eucharist , p. 46. said , perhaps it had been better to have left every curious man to his conjecture , concerning the manner of Christs body being in the Eucharist , as before the Lateran Council it was left at liberty , and therefore he was ost heard to say , if he had been present at the Lateran Council , he would have endeavoured to perswade Pope Innocent to have forborn the decreeing of transubstantiation as an article of faith . And indeed the reason of the Council is so grosly absurd , that had there been any understanding men at the making of the decree , it 's likely it had not passed . For this reason they give of their decree , that to perfect the mystery of unity we our selves may take of his what he received of ours , the bread being transubstantiate into the body , the wine into blood by the divine power , intimates , 1. That the bread is transubstantiate into the body and wine into the blood , not either into body and blood , and then he that drinks not the wine drinks not the blood , nor is it said to be transubstantiate into it as an animate body , so that that determination makes it a transubstantiation without life . 2. It faith that we may receive of his what he receives of ours ; which in plain sense intimates , that Christ receives our body and blood by eating and drinking , as we do his . 3. It makes this the mystery of our unity , as if the mystery of our unity by faith were not perfect without this gross Capernaitish Cannibalitish eating Christs very flesh made from bread by a Priest , and drinking his very blood with our mouth , in drinking transubstantiate wine . All which are such gross , irrational , unchristian absurdities , as had not the age been blockish , and Popes and popish writers and people dementate , they would with abhorrency have rejected that determination .

H. T. adds , that the fourth Lateran Council , can. 1. defined in the profession of faith , that no man can make this Sacrament , but a Priest rightly ordained by the keys of the Church given to the Apostles and their successors : which although it be otherwise in the text , Matth. 16. 19. expresseth , wherein the keys , not of the Church but of the Kingdom of heaven , are mentioned as given to Peter , not to the Apostles and their successors ; yet were it true that the keys were given to the Apostles and their successors , this would overthrow the Popes supremacy if it be deduced from that gift of the keys . For if Christ himself gave the keys of the Church to the Apostles and their successors , then not to Peter only and his successors , but to other Apostles and their successors as well as Peter , and consequently according to their own principles to other Bishops as well as the Bishop of Rome . As for the definition of the Council , that none can make this Sacrament but a Priest , then it is to Priests only that it is said [ do this ] ( for from those words he deduceth , p. 215. the power to make Christs body ) but that is most absurd , for then they only should eat , the doing this being meant plainly of eating the bread , being spoken not to the Priest conficient only , but to all the Apostles at table also , and if so , not only the cup should be kept from the people , but the bread also , contrary to 1 Cor. 10. 16 , 17. & 11. 28.

H. T. tells us that they defined that baptism profits little ones as well as those who are of riper years unto salvation , and condemned the heresie of Abbas Joachim , which is nothing against the common tenet of the Protestants , though it be suspected , that if Abbat Joachim had not been a man , whose reputed holiness and free speeches against the Popes and the clergy troubled them , he might have escaped that censure The definition concerning confession and receiving at Easter are points of disciplin , not part of the profession of faith , and so impertinent to the present business .

H. T. mentions also the Council of Lyons ( Fathers one hundred ) Pope Gregory the tenth presiding , Anno 1274. against the Grecians , which is nothing against the common tenet of the Protestants , and that which is added , this hitherto ( saith the Council ) the holy Roman Church ( the mother and mistris of all Churches ) hath preach'd and taught , ( besides the non-sense how frequently soever it be used of the Churches preaching and teaching , who preach not nor teach , but they are preached to and taught ) it is but a piece of palpably false flattery , the Church of Rome being not the mother of all Churches , it being certain , that the Church of Jerusalem was before that of Rome , and the Jerusalem from above is stiled the mother of us all , Gal. 4. 26.

Among his Catholick professors of this age H. T. nominates St. Dominick and St. Francis , Institutors of their holy orders of Friers , but how they should be Saints , whereof one was a bloody instigator of war against the innocent sheep of Christ the Waldenses , and the other an observer of humane inventions , with neglect of Gods command to work with his hands the thing that was good , that he might have to give to him that needs , and how they should be called a holy order , who were like to the institutors , but never appointed by God , I understand not . Many learned men in those daies demonstrated them to be no holy orders , but a company of men that promoted the Popes usurpations and injuries , to the great mischief of the Commonwealths and Churches of Christians .

Of the Nations converted , the Emperour Cassanes , with innumerable Tartarians were not converted by the Church of Rome , nor owned the Popes supremacy or faith , and therefore are no witnesses for the Papacy .

In the fourteenth age ten Popes are set down , of whom most ●●te at Avignon in France , and so could not be Pastors of the Church of Rome : one is Clement the fifth , who chained Francis Dandalus the Venetian Ambassador under his table to feed with dogs , and lost at the pomp of his Coronation out of his mitre a carbuncle valued at six thousand ●●orens . Another , John the twenty one , by others John the twenty second , whom Bellarmin . de Pontifice Rom. l. 4. c. 14. confesseth to have thought that the souls should not see God till after the resurrection , though he adds a cold excuse , as if he might so think then without danger of heresie , because no definition of the Church proceded : which is not true if he say rightly himself , l. 1. de eccl. triumph . c. 2. that the same , that is , that the souls see God afore the resurrection , teacheth Innocent the third ( who was one hundred years before John the twenty one , by H. T. his account ) c. Apostolicam , extra , de Presbytero non Baptizat● . However , if there were no definition , it proves a Pope may teach heresie , sith John the twenty second did earnestly press this on the Parisians , that they should believe as he did . Of the rest their unpeaceableness in their contention with the Emperor and among themselves in their Schisms , in which one Pope was set up against another ; divers Popes at the same time , one owned by one , another by another , makes the succession so uncertain , that even the Romanists disagree in the succession , some putting in Clement the seventh in this age , whom H. T. leaves out , some standing for one , some for others as the right Popes . Besides their cruelty and covetousness , p●ove them rather Butchers than Pastors of the Church of Christ .

H. T. adds one general Council of Vienna ( Fathers three hundred ) Pope Clement the fifth presiding , Anno Domini 1311. in which he tells us , the Council defined baptism to be necessary for infants , condemned the Begards and Beguines , who held carnal lust done out of temptation to be no sin , and that we ought not to shew reverence at the elevation of the body of Christ , which last alone is against Protestants in common . But the Council whether provincial or general , being swayed by a proud prelate , Clement the fifth , it s no marvel it should make such decrees as then were made .

As for the Catholick Professors , there is scarce a man of any note , but Iro a Canonist , whose profession will be of little weight with considerate men . That an Emperour of Russia , if made a Christian , did embrace the Romish Religion , and submit to the Pope , is not likely . The rest of the Nations converted , H. T. proves not to have been converted from Rome , or to have held communion with the Pope , if they did , it avails little to prove H. T. his Minor , that such rude people did so .

SECT. XII .

The defect of H. T. his Catalogue in the fiftenth and sixteenth Ages is shewed .

IN the fifteenth Age he reckons up thirteen Popes as chief Pastours , in which number he leaves out Benedict the thirteenth , though reckoned by others , who with Gregory the twelfth upheld a Schism of three Popes together , till they with John 22. or 23. for divers intolerable villanies were deposed , as Eugenius the fourth was after at the Council of Basil : of the rest scarce any of worth besides Pius the second , whose Writings remain under the name of Aeneas Sylvius , and the last is Alexander the sixth , Roderique Borgia , who with his son Caesar Borgia were so infamous for poysonings , covetousness and uncleanness of body , that Rome , though the sink of wickedness , yet yielded few or none worse in any Age.

H. T. tells us of two general Councils , , that of Constance , Anno 1415. against John Wickliff , John Hus , and Hierom of Prague , Pope John the two and twentieth , and Martin the fifth presiding : but the main end of its calling by Sigismund the Emperour , was the composing of the Troubles by three Popes together , whom it deposed , and decreed the Council to be above the Pope , which is against the now Roman faith . It is true also , that they condemned sundry Articles of John Wickliff , John Hus , and Hierom of Prague , whereof some were most falsely ascribed to them , as the Works of John Wickliff and other testimonies do shew . And notwithstanding the safe conduct given by Sigismund the Emperour , to the perpetual infamy of the popish party , they judged he was to deliver John Hus to be burned , Sess. 19. whereupon the Emperours solemn faith was broken , and thereupon they were burned , and Wickliffs bones , as they imagined , forty years after his death were digged up and burned in England , and a most impious Decree made , that , notwithstanding Christ 's institution and administring in both kindes , and in the primitive Church it were received by the faithfull in both kindes , yet the custom was confirmed of receiving in one , and the requiring it in both judged an errour , and it was forbidden to be given the people in both kindes , Sess. 13. The other Council H. T. mentions is the Council of Florence , ( Fathers 145. ) Pope Eugenius presiding , Anno 1439. against many Heresies ; which defined Pugatory , the Popes headship , Transubstantiation , the Apocryphal books canonical , the Grecians , Jacobites , Armenians , and Patriarch of Constantinople subscribing this Council , and being reconciled to the church of Rome . But this Council however it hath a shew of great authority , by reason of the presence of the Patriarch of Constantinople , and some other of the Eastern Christian churches , yet indeed it was of no authority , it being gotten together by a Factio● in opposition to the Council of Basil , which was decreed by Pope Martin the fifth , to be ten years after the Council of Constance : and the end of it was to divert the Fathers of the Council of Basil from deposing Eugenius the fourth from his Popedom , which nevertheless they did for his ill Government , and chose Amadeus Duke of Savoy , who was named Felix the fifth , who is omitted therefore by H. T. though by others counted the lawfull Pope : but H. T. thought it best to omit him and the Council of Basil , which together with the Council of Constance had determined that a general Council was above the Pope , and were not bound to obey him , but might depose him , as the French churches yet to this day do hold , so that they who are termed Catholicks , and owned as children of the church , yet do not profess the now - Roman faith of the Popes supremacy , which H T. and the Jesuited party among Papists the Popes flatterers ascribe to him . As for the presence of the Greeks in the Council of Florence it was of a few needy ones driven out or brought low by the Turks , who yielded to that in the Council for some relief to them in their low estate , which the Greek churches after would not own , nor do yet to this day . And therefore that which H. T. hath done in setting down the Popes and Councils of this Age is done deceitfully , concealing the true state of things , and so he hath done of Catholick Professors , mentioning some of small worth , but leaving out Gerson , Picus Mirandulanus , and some others , though in communion with the Roman church , and men of more abilities and repute than many of those he sets down , because Gerson held that the Church might be without a Pope , in his book de auferibilitate Papae ; and he and others differ'd in some other points from the now Roman tenets .

As for the Nations converted , which he mentions , they are names of people said to be in Africa ; but whether there be such people , or are converted , or what numbers of them have been converted is known onely by the vain-glorious Writings of some popish Writers of that sort , who for the extolling of the Papacy , either feign that which is not , or it is likely make a Mountain of a Mole-hill , such conversions as they boast of being not known to other people , though sailing into , and trading in all parts of the known world .

H. T. adds his catalogue of chief Pastors in the sixteenth Age and half the seventeenth to 1654. and sets down two and twenty Popes as chief Pastors of the Church . Of them are Julius the second a Warriour ; Leo the tenth , who to maintain his Luxury , and for his sister Magdalen's Dowry , set Indulgences to sale , himself venting his infidelity to Cardinal Bembus , as if he counted the Gospel a profitable Fable ; Paul the third an incestuous father of a Sodomitical son , whom he cocker'd , full of cruelty and craft , sending an Army with Farnesius to destroy the Protestants in Germany ; Julius the third that created his Ganymede Innocentius a boy Cardinal , and had for his Nuntio at Venice John Casa Arch-bishop of Benevent , who in a book praised Sodomy ; Paul the fourth hated by the Romans for his cruelty ; Pius the fourth that made the new creed of the Roman church ; Pius the fifth that excommunicated Queen Elizabeth ; Gregory the thirteenth that set up Stukely to get Ireland for his base son ; Sixtus the fifth that animated the Spaniard in the Expedition against England , 1588. praised James Clement the Frier , who murdered Henry the third King of France ; Gregory the fourteenth who cursed Henry the fourth of France ; Clement the eighth , who afore he absolved him , proudly lasheth his Embassadour with a Rod ; Paul the fifth who had the Title of Vicedeus given him , and not disclaimed , who interdicted the Venetians for not obeying his Monitory to revoke their Laws about Ecclesiasticks , and to release two Ecclesiastick prisoners , one a poysoner , another that committed uncleanness in a Temple , and did forbid the taking the Oath of Allegeance in England by Papists , without doing any thing against some of the priests privy to the Gunpowder Treason , to shew their detestation of it . Among them all there is not one that their own stories do relate to have been a diligent preacher of the Gospel , but politicians , medling with the affairs of the Kingdoms and Empires of the World , and so no Successors to our Lord Christ , or Peter the Apostle ; but their memories are to be abhorred specially by us English as the pests of mankinde .

H. T. mentions two general Councils the last Lateran Council Pope Julius the second and Leo the tenth presiding , 1512. I finde not the certain number of Fathers , it was a general Council . But Bellarmine lib. 2. de concil . auth. cap. 13. saith , Some doubt whether it were truly general : and there was reason , sith it was called by a Faction adhering to Julius the second to establish his tyranny in opposition to another party gathered in France to establish the pragmatick Sanction . But what did this Council define ? The soul of man immortal , and that there be as many humane souls as bodies , anathematizing all such as obstinately defend or hold the contrary in the communion of the Church of Rome , Sess 8. A point which a Council of Philosophers might have decided . However it intimates there were that did then hold or teach the contrary in the communion of the church of Rome , and that Pope John the two and twentieth his Doctrine was not quite extinguished : but this Council is of little account among a great party of the Papists themselves ▪ It is the other Council the Council of Trent Pope Paul the third and Pius the fourth presiding against Martin Luther and his fellow Protestants , Anno 1546. of which he saith , The definitions are conformable to those of all precedent general Councils for us , and against Sectaries , as our Adversaries know , and cannot deny . But this is most false , it being by Bishop Jewel , and many other learned Protestants averred and proved , that the Decrees of that Council in many points about the Popes power , half communion , transubstantiation , worshiping Images , and other points are contrary to the Councils and Fathers for the first five hundred years at least . And for this Council not onely Sleidan , but also Frier Paul , a man greatly honoured by the Venetian Senate for his learning , prudence , and integrity in his History of the Trent Council hath shewed , that it was nothing but a meer packed and fraudulent conventicle of a crue of prelates , most of them Italians , some meerly titular , and the Popes pensioners and parasites , few of them who had any knowledge in the Scripture or Divinity , but canonists , courtiers , and school-men , who understood not the Protestants Doctrine in the great point of justification by faith , carried on by Paul the third , Julius the third , Pius the fourth , and their Legates to cheat the World by innumerable artifices , not onely hindring the freedom of speech of the Protestants in the Council , but also of some of the popish Bishops , when they endeavoured to recover the right of Bishops taken away from them by the Popes , in so much that not onely the Protestants have protested against it , but also the French Kings , by their Embassadours and Parliaments , and it is not owned by the French popish churches unto this day , and the vanity and impiety of its Decrees hath been detected by Kemnitius , Calvin , and innumerable learned protestants , besides what may be gathered from the contrary Writings of persons , who were there , as Catharinus , Soto , Vega , and others ; in so much that if men were not blinded with prejudice and faction they would easily discern that Council to have been a corrupt Synod justly to be detested .

As for the catholick professours he mentions , their profession adds but little credit to their cause . For what advantage is it to prove the truth of the Roman Tridentin Doctrine that it was professed by Catharina a woman , or Ignatius Loyola a lame Souldier , the hypocritical Deviser of the Order of Jesuits , the Incendiaries of the Christian States , and corrupters of Christian Nobility and people by their abominable Devices in resolving cases of conscience sutably to the lusts of men rather than the will of God , ( as is shewed in the late book of the Mystery of Jesuitism ) or by Edmund Campian a bold talkative calumniator , and a traiterous zelot for the Popes tyranny , or by William Allen an English Fugitive , who wrote seditious books to apologize for Stanley's Treachery , and to provoke Queen Elizabeth's Subjects to Rebellion against so good a Prince ? And for the great multitudes converted in Italy , Spain , Germany , India , Japonia , China , by Priests and Religious of the Roman Church , and likewise some considerable persons of the English Nation , even in the heat of Persecution , they are short of that which was undertaken of the conversion of Nations . The conversions in the West Indies have been by horrid cruelties of the Spaniards depopulating many countreys , in which were millions of people , to get their Treasure , not to the faith of Christ , but to the Roman yoak and superstitions against their will , which hath made Christian Religion-odious , and the Name of God to be blasphemed . Those of China and Japonia are fictions , or so obscure , as that they are not considerable . The conversions in Spain , France , Germany , Polonia , have been by fire and faggot , the bloody Inquisition , persecutions , Massacres , and such like arguments fetcht from Hell . The hot persecution of Papists here in England is , as all know that know England , a meer fiction : some mulcts and restraints have been put on popish persons , but none put to death meerly for being Papists , but for that which the Law made Treason , being forced to it by their incessant traiterous practices , and yet these also are executed sparingly . The conversions to Popery in England have been by various artifices upon various inducements , whereof none of them is evidence from the canonical Scripture of the truth of popish Doctrine ( they dare not stick to it without help of unwritten tradition , and the Popes or his Councils explication , which they must receive , though contrary to the exposition of their own most learned and judicious Writers in their Commentaries ) but the devices which they use are calumniating Protestant Writers , mis-representing their Doctrine , forging Writings of the Ancients , purging out of them such passages as make against them , which do take effect by the levity of some , prejudice , discontent , or some such like ill affection of others . And though Campian after his vain-glorious manner boasted of turning ten thousand in one year to the Popish party , and the popish Priests do boast of their success , as when Musket was reported to have converted Dr. King Bishop of London , and Weston reported to the Earl of Warwick unknown his conversion to Popery , when the Earl knew it to be false , yet as upon trial there was little cause for Campian's glorying , and the reports of Musket's and Fisher's success heretofore ; so I hope , however in the time of the Wars they have mudded the Waters in England and intangled some in their Nets , the Waters being settled they will be less able to deceive , and souls which are now caught by them will by Gods blessing escape them . However there is great cause to say , that those who are caught by popish Priests and joyn to the church of Rome , as now it is , are for want of receiving the love of the truth , that they might be saved , given over to believe Lyes , and are in danger to be damned , as the Apostle foretold , 2 Thess. 2. 10 , 11 , 12.

What he adds of multitudes of provincial Councils omitted , all esta●lishing the Roman tenets over the whole World , it is because they are no where to be found , but the emptiness of this his Catalogue is a sure eviction that there is not consent of Nations or Ages on behalf of the Papists .

SECT. XIII .

In which the Close of H. T. is retorted .

ANd for his close I thus retort it . Now let any rational and disinteressed man be judge whether the Fathers of the first Councils for five or six hundred years were true Protestants or Roman Catholicks ( that is , whether they have taught and defined Protestant or Roman catholick Doctrines ) and doubtless when he hath well read their Writings he will say , not Roman Catholiks , but true Protestants , and so by consequence all Ages , and countreys which have received and approved them for Orthodox , by humbly submitting to their Decrees , to wit , all Ages since Christ's time , who with his holy Apostles and the orthodox Fathers and Councils for many hundred years taught Doctrine contrary the now Roman Tridentin faith . Therefore let no Papist or Sectary , such as H. T. is , ( who like as the Donatists excluded all from the Church , who were not of Donatus his party ; so he ●xcludes all from the Church of God , who are not of the Bishop of Rome's party , and thereby shews himself a Schismatick divided from the Catholick Church ) delude himself and his ignorant and credulous followers , with a pretence to Council , seeing there is no one to be found for them ( speaking of General and Oecumenical Councils for the first five or six hundred years which were the best ) which hath defined and taught their positive Doctrines , but all have more or less condemned all or some of them , according to the occasions then emergent , and in particular that which Dr. John Rainold in his Conference with Hart , cap. 9. divis. 4. said stands yet good , that all Christian Churches , except the crue of the Italian Faction , have and do condemn the Popes usurped Sovereignty over the whole Church of Christ , and that no Council did give him that visible Mo●archy be now usurps , and the Jesuited party now ascribe to him till the last Lateran Council under Pope Leo the tenth , 1512. After which it was opposed by the University of Paris and the French church , and even in the Trent council there was a party which strugled against it in right of Bishops , though they were overborn by the Romish devices , and the multitude of Italians . Even at this day the Jesuits have not brought all the Papists under the Popes girdle : which makes the Pope cautelous how he determins controversies among his own party , least the condemned party appeal from him to a council , and the oppressed Kingdom set up a Patriarch of its own . So that I may say it is an impossible task for this Scribler H. T. or any of his party to make a true catalogue of chief Pastors or Councils , or approved Doctors in all ages for the Popes supremacy , transubstantiation , communion under one kind , worshiping of images , invocation and worshiping of deceased Saints and their reliques ; but a better catalogue may be made of more godly persons ( with whom their Popes for this one thousand years are not to be compared , their own writers being Judges ) who have opposed these doctrins of the now Romanists , as hath been shewed by many learned men to the eternal confusion of Popish novelties , then this Author hath here , or any Popish writer elsewhere hath made , to prove a succession of Pastors , Councils , Professors and Nations avouching the present Roman opinions , which were never so avouched or enjoyned as now they are in Pope Pius the fourth his new Creed , till about one hundred years ago . And to this insolent demand , where was your Church before Luther ? Protestants may reply to Papists , where was your church which believed , as you now do , before Boniface the third , Gregory the seventh , Innocent the third , and Leo the tenth ? The speeches of the Fathers for the churches continued succession , do none of them prove the major of H. T. his Syllogism , that is the only true Church of God , which has had a continued succession from Christ and his Apostles to this time , meaning it of local personal succession , of which H. T. means it , but only of succession in holding the same doctrin . Nor do any of them prove H. T. his minor , that the church now in communion with the See of Rome and no other , has had a continued succession from Christ and his Apostles to this time , for they were all dead above a thousand years afore this time . All that can be proved , is that in case of heresies or Schisms they made use of the succession in the Roman church , ( which was then less tainted then some others ) to repress them , yet so as that they alleged a succession in other churches as well as it , but none ever , as this Author , held it necessary , that all churches should own the Bishop of Romes supremacy , or the Roman churches communion how corrupt soever they should prove : only while they continued uncorrupt in the faith they held communion with them , and so should we , if they would embrace the primitive purity of doctrine and worship , which Peter and Paul and other Apostles first taught in the churches of Christ , of which that at Rome , though not the first , yet was one of the most famous , and till their declining of great esteem .

SECT. XIV .

H. T. hath not solved the Protestants objection .

H. T. takes upon him to solve objections against the Churches continued succession , and saith thus . Obj. Elias complained that he was left alone , 3 King . 19. therefore the church then failed . Answ. He spake figuratively , for God himself told him in the same Chapter , ver. 18. that he had seven thousand at that time in Israel ( where he was ) who had not howed their knees to Baal : and in the Kingdom of Juda there was then publick profession of the true religion in Hierusalem , paralip . 22. 14 , 15. so that consequence is false .

To which I reply , this author shews himself deceitful in setting down our tenet and argument , and slighty in his answer . For the tenet of the Protestants is not , that the Church hath failed , and that there is no continued succession of men in the visible Church , who have held forth the truth against Popish innovations . But that sometimes they have been by persecution so obscured , as that however they have been discernable among themselves , yet not so to adversaries , and to others of their brethren at a farther distance ; nor perhaps have they been so conspicuous , as that a catalogue might be made of the succession of Pastors and people in the same place in every age , but oft-times they have been so dispersed , as to be in one age or time in one Country , and another time in another ; and that the monuments of their being and doctrine , have been in part lost and in part obscured by inundations of barbarous nations , persecutions of Popes and Popish Princes , and their knowledge and profession hath been sometimes larger , sometimes less , and still misreported by adversaries . Nevertheless , that is , though they have been in such obscurity , they have been true Churches of Christ ; and notwithstanding we cannot prove such a succession in any one City or Country of Pastors and people in every thing agreeing with us , yet we may be a true Church as long as we hold the true faith once delivered to the Saints , and now upon record in the holy Scriptures , though we submit not to the Pope as chief Pastor , nor own the now Roman doctrin in the articles required in the Bull of Pope Pius the fourth to be professed over and above the ancient Creeds . In a word this we assert , that the defect of a catalogue such as H. T. requires , and the obscurity of professors nullifies not the verity of the Protestant Churches . And this is proved by the objection thus . If there were a true Church in Israel in Elias his days , which was so hidden as that Elias knew them not , and so could make no catalogue of them ; then there may be a true Church , whose professors may be so obscure , as that neither in the same , nor in after ages a catalogue of them can be assigned . But so it was ; as appears by Elias his complaint , and Gods answer , 1 King . 19. 10 , 14 , 18. Ergo , there may be a true Church whose professors may be so obscure , as that neither in the same nor in after ages a catalogue of them can be assigned . Now what doth he answer ? that Elias spake figuratively , because God said there were seven thousand non-Baalites left in Israel , and that there was a Church in Ju●ah then , and therefore the consequence false .

But to shew the slightiness of this shifter ( for I cannot term him rightly a respondent ) 1. He tells us not what figure he used , nor in what words , nor what sense the speech bears according to that figure , nor how it serves for his purpose to avoid the objection . I do not conceive what figure of speech he or any man can imagin in that speech [ I am left alone ] unless he meant Ironically , I am left alone , that is not left alone , which were a frantick conceit , or an Hyperbole , or a Synecdoche of a part for the whole , one for many : but such an Hyperbole or Synecdoche would make the speech non-sense [ I , that is a few or many are left alone ] For this were non-sense and self contradicting , and contrary to the intent of the speech , [ I ] being in the first person and that doubled , [ few or many ] in the third : to say [ few or many are left alone ] when [ alone ] excludes few , many , any more then one : to say [ they seek my life , that is of few or many ] when [ my ] notes only him that spake , to wit Elias , and no other : to say [ I have been jealous , that is a few or many have been jealous ] besides the citation , Rom. 11. 3. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 the occasion , end of the speech , and answer of God shew such an exposition would be the conceit of a man extreme shallow or impudent . And his reason is as ridiculous , God himself told Elias in the same chapter , ver. 18. that he had seven thousand at that time in Israel ( where he was ) therefore Elias spake figuratively , when he complained he was left alone , 3 Kings 19. Nay the contrary follows , that he did not speak figuratively , because God corrects him , and shews his mistake in saying he was left alone , that is , there were no more besides himself left . 2. But yet if it were granted that the speech is figurative , and the meaning as H. T. would have it , it no whit avoids our objection , that the Church of God , though consisting of seven thousand , yet were so obs●ure that they appeared so few to Elias , as that he took himself to be left alone . As for the other exception of the Kingdom of Juda , it takes not away the objection as the Protestants frame it , but as H. T. frames it , it is not our objection ; and so though the consequence be false , yet it hurts not us , who gather not hence the failing of the Church , but the obscurity of it , and that there may be a true Church , which is so hidden , that it is not discerned at some times , no not by such an eminent Prophet as Elias ; and so though we cannot shew our Church in every age before Luther , yet there might be then , and we may be now a true Church for all that .

The next objection he brings is , that though Arian heresie infected the whole world , Ergo , &c. and answers , you mistake , the fury of that lasted not full fou● years , viz. from the council of Ariminum to the death of Constantine , and that only in the Eastern Churches , the Western feeling little or nothing by it . St. Augustin answers the Donatists objecting the same ; that even the canonical Scriptures have this custome , that the word seems to be addressed to all , when it reaches home only to some few , Epist. 48.

To which I reply , If the Arian fury lasted but four years , and in the Eastern Churches only , yet it might have been more than one hundred , and then the succession had ceased , and the Eastern Churches then were so obscure , that a catalogue of professors could not be given , though there were doubtless then true Churches in the East . But it is false which H. T. writes , that the Western felt little or nothing by the Arian fury , for in Italy the Arians prevailed so far , as to bring Liberius Bishop of Rome to subscribe to the council of Ariminum . Nor do I know how the words of Augustin yeild any thing in answer to the objection , that in the time of the Arian prevalency the Church was so obscured , that the whole world seemed to be Arians ; therefore the Churches succession may be so interrupted or obscured at least , as that a catalogue of it's pastors and professors at all times cannot be framed . For suppose the meaning of the speech should be , that the words concerning the number of Arians seem to be addressed to all , when they reach home only to some few : yet , if the words shew the number so great , as that the other part of the Church were obscured so as not to be discerned , they serve to prove there may be Churches , which are so hidden as that a catalogue cannot be framed .

But the objection is further pressed thus . Object , St. Hierom says , the whole world groan'd and admired to see it self become Arian ( in his book against Luciferius . ) To which H. T. saith . Answ. If she wondred , she knew not when it was done , if she groaned , she approved it not being done , therefore the major part were still Catholick . To which I reply , if H. T. did not presume he should meet with silly readers , he would not have thus frivolously inferred from those words which were delivered to shew the Arians to be the greater part , that the major part was still Catholick . For who knows not that the expression is Rhetorical and the meaning this , that Arians prevailed so much , that the whole world , that is all the churches of the East and West were so infected , that they were burdened with Arians as a man that groans under a burden , and that on such a sudden , as that the accident was as it were a wonder ? now from such Catachrestical metaphors to infer as if they were proper , that while the world was Arian , it knew not it was done , or approved it not , is all one as to say , when they were Arians they knew not , nor liked Arian doctrine ; that is while they were Arians they were not Arians , which is to make Hieroms speech self-contradicting .

But H. T. adds , Let St. Hierom answer for himself . The Bishops ( saith he against Luciferius ) that did the fact of Ariminum were deluded ( viz. by the new Creed there made , which might have born a good sense ) few defending the fact , and some lamenting it . And St. Augustin tells us , that the church then appeared in her most constant members , Athanasius and others , ep. 48.

To which I reply , It is true , that when they came to see their error they did lament it , yet were for the time Arians , and though Athanasius did not yeild to subscribe to it , yet Liberlus Bishop of Rome did . And I believe H. T. his fellow Papists will not allow his speech , that the decree made at Ariminum might have born a good sense . It is added by H. T. thus . Obj. The church will fail in the time of Antichrist according to that , unless there come a revolt first , &c. 2 Thes. 2. 3. Answ. No , she will not ; she shall then suffer great persecution , Apoc. 20. 8. and therefore shall be to suffer : many will revolt , all shall not .

I reply , that if the revolt be of so many and the persecution so great , as that they shall be dispersed and obscured so as not to appear ; it is sufficient to prove the succession to be then either so interrupted as not to be , or so obscured as not to be discerned by enemies or brethren further off , and so as that the making a catalogue of Pastors and professors in that age , cannot be expected justly from the churches in after ages , which is enough for our purpose to shew , that the defect of such a catalogue shews not the nullity of the Protestant churches , nor is with any justice or reason such a catalogue of Pastors and professors in all ages required of them by Papists : Yet , however this Author conceives , his fellows the Rhemists , Annot. on 2 Thes. 2. 3. think the Apostasie shall be so great , as that Antichrist shall pull down generally all kind of religious worship , saving that which must be done to himself alone : nor is that , Apoc. 20. 8. to the contrary . For neither is it certain that time is the time of Antichrists reign , nor , if it were , doth it appear , that the thing done is afore the end of that reign .

But H. T. adds . Obj. What if men would not persevere ? how then ? you hold freewill , I hope . Answ. With St. Augustine to the Donatists , as if the holy Ghost were ignorant what would be the freewill of men , which yet foreseeing , he foretold that the church of Christ should endure for ever . de unit . Eccles. cap. 12.

I reply , what Protestant hath thus objected I know not . The possibility of the militant churches ceasing , is sufficiently proved by the holding of the acts of freewill to be undetermined , or undeterminable by God . Nor doth the answer avoid it . For though , if the answer be good , the futurition of the churches failing follows not from the holding of free-will ; yet it shews not but that it may be , and perhaps it will be hard for him to avoid the objection , that if mans will be not determined by Gods decree , which is meant by freewill among that sort of writers : then the Holy Ghost cannot foresee that the church militant will endure for ever , it being in reason impossible , that there should be certain foresight of that which is not certain to be afore that act of freewill in man which God himself cannot determine : A certain prescience of that which is purely contingent , may be or not be before it , notwithstanding any purpose in God , is according to all principles of reason impossible . If this Author hold with many of the Romanists mans freewill , not to be determined by Gods decree and influx on the will of man , or the Jesuits middle knowledge , he hath enough of Papists to oppose him . I have sufficiently shewed the futility of his dispute in the first Article of his Manual , the second follows .

ARTIC. II. Protestants Succession sufficient .

Protestants have that Succession , which is sufficient to demonstrate them to be a true Church of God .

SECT. I.

Protestant Churches need not prove such a Succession as Papists demand .

ART. 2. H. T. thus disputes , The true Church of God hath had a continued Succession from Christ to this time , and shall have from hence to the end of the world , as hath been proved . But the Protestant Church ( and so of all other Sectaries ) hath not a continued Succession from Christ to this time . Therefore the Protestant Church is not the true Church of God . The Minor ( which onely remains unproved ) is cleared by the concession of our most learned Adversaries , who freely and unanimously confess , that before Luther made his separation from the Church of Rome for nine hundred or a thousand years together the whole world was Catholick , and in obedience to the Pope of Rome , there being no Protestants any where to be found , or heard of . Let therefore our Enemies be our Judges , Calvin , Hospinian , White , Norton , Bancroft , Jewel , Chamier , Brochard , Whitaker , Bucer , Perkins , Bale , Voyon , Bibliander .

Answ. IT hath not been proved , that every true Church of God hath had a continued Succession from Christ to this time : many true Churches have had no Predecessors , and so no Succession , the Primitive Churches certainly had not Succession , there being none before them , they had not been primitive if there had been precedent , and sundry Churches have been true Churches , who have had none after them in the same place , when their Candlestick hath been removed . And therefore it is most false , which he here vainly saith he hath proved , that the true Church of God ( meaning every true Church of God , without which his Major is not universal , and so his Syllogism naught ) hath had a continued succession ; ( meaning without interruption of persons , which may be named in the same place , professing the same Faith with the now Roman Church in every point , which is his meaning and is onely for his purpose ) from Christ to this time ▪ he hath not proved it , no not in the Roman Church , nor in those that are in communion with it under the Pope . Nor hath he proved at all that every true visible Church on earth shall have such a continued Succession from hence to the end of the world . The prophecies he alleged are shewed not to speak what he averres . And for his Minor , though it is granted , that the Protestant Church under that name , as so termed , hath not been ancient , yet the Protestant Church in respect of that Faith they hold hath been from the beginning , and hath continued as the Church of God in persecution sometimes more , sometimes less pure , sometimes larger , sometimes smaller , sometimes more obscure , sometimes more conspicuous , sometimes in one place , sometimes in another , and in respect of their Protestation against popish Doctrines , the Popes Supremacy , Transubstantiation , half-communion , propitiatory Sacrifice of the Mass , prayer in an unknown Tongue , Worship and Invocation of Saints , and other popish Errours , it hath had Churches and persons who have , as they have been urged on them , opposed them , sometime more , sometime fewer , sometimes in a more open , sometimes in a more secret way , as persecution permitted , and God stirred up their spirits . It is most false , that the most learned Adversaries of the Romanists do freely and unanimously confess , that before Luther made his Separation from the Church of Rome , for nine hundred or a thousand years together , the whole World was Catholick , and in obedience to the Pope of Rome , there being no Protestants any where to be found or heard of . Sure the Grecians were part of the World , and H. T. himself confesseth here pag. 48. there was a Revolt of them from the Roman Church after seven or eight hundred years , and they were united again to the Church of Rome in the Council of Florence , Sess. last , which himself saith , p. 34 was in the year 1439. so that by his own account their Revolt was six hundred years at least , besides what is manifest of the Arminians and others . And sure the Hussites , Wicklevists , Waldenses , and those who went before them ( whom Rainerius saith , Some counted to have been from Pope Sylvester 's time , some from the Apostles ) were a part of the whole World , and many Protestants : Illyricus , Fox , White , with others , deny to have obeyed the Pope of Rome afore Luther , and averre that they were , though not in name , yet in truth Protestants in some at least of the chief points against the now popish Doctrine . And therefore that which H. T. hath recited in this Speech is manifest untruth . Yea Dr. Richard Field a learned man , in his Appendix to his third Book of the Church , hath proved it notwithstanding Brerely his wonderment , that the Western Churches afore Luther were Protestant , and the maintainers of the now Roman Faith onely a Faction in it . And Mr. Perkins hath demonstrated in his Demonstration of the Probleme this Position , No Apostle , no holy Father , no sound Catholik for twelve hundred years after Christ did ever hold or profess that Doctrine of all the Principles and Grounds of Religion , that is now taught by the Church of Rome , and authorized by the Council of Trent . Nor do the Speeches of the Protestant Writers amount to that which he produceth them for . He himself allegeth p. 41. out of Augustin Epist. 48. that even the Canonical Scriptures have this custome , that the word seems to be addressed to all , when it reaches home onely to some few , and thereby he would interpret the complaints that were made of the whole world becoming Arian , when Athanasius , and others were not . And he might have so interpreted the Speeches he allegeth of Hospinian and the rest . I have not all the Books he citeth ; but some of their words I finde not as this Author would have them . Bishop Jewel having said , pag. 208. And to be short , all the World this day crieth and groaneth after the Gospel , adds , And all these things are come to pass at such time as to any mans reason it might seem impossible : when all the World , the People , Priests , and Princes were overwhelmed with ignorance : when all Schools , Priests , Bishops , and Kings of the World were sworn to him , that whatsoever he took in hand they would uphold it . Which Speeches are to be understood onely of the Western Empire , as when it is said Luke 2. 1. A Decree went out that all the World should be taxed , it is meant onely of the Roman Empire ; and when John 12. 19. The World is gone after him , it is meant by an Hyperbole , of a great part , so the words of Bishop Jewel are to be understood as is usual in such rhetorical expressions , though the words are not as this Authour sets them down , that the whole World , Princes , Priests , and People were bound by Oath to the Pope , Jewel Serm. on Luke 11. In like manner when Calvin saith , lib. 4. instit. c. 18. sect. 18. that the abominations of the Mass presented to drink in a golden Cup hath so made drunk all the Kings and People of the Earth , from the first to the last , he alluding to the words Revel. 18. 3. is to be conceived , as in that Scripture and many more , to be understood by an excess of Speech a great part , in comparison of whom the rest are as if they were not . To the same purpose were the words of Perkins Exposition of the Creed , vol. 1. pag. 260. col. 2. c. as the whole period recited shews , which is this , And during the space of nine hundred years from the time of Boniface , the Popish Heresie , to wit , of the Popes Supremacy , spread it self over the whole Earth , and the faithfull Servants of God were but as an Handfull of Wheat in a Mountain of Chaff , which can scarce be discerned . The next words of Dr. White himself in the same period shews his meaning to be of freedom wholly , and of appearing conspicuously , and to the World visibly to be seen by all , and separated from the rest . For thus it follows , And whether any company at all , known or unknown , were free from it wholly or not , I neither determine nor greatly care . Nor do I question but that the same is the meaning of the rest , if their words were rightly cited , and the Reader might perceive how they are wrested by H. T. against their meaning : and they wrote those expressions in like meaning with those passages of holy Scripture which complain of corruption as universal , when the greatest or most conspicuous part are so , as Psalm 12. 1. Micah 7. 2. Phil. 2. 21.

SECT. II.

The Argument of H. T. to prove the nullity of the Protestant Churches for want of Succession is turned against the Roman Church .

H. T. further argues thus , Without a continued number of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks succeeding one another in the profession of the same Faith from Christ and his Apostles to this time , a continued Succession cannot be had . But Protestants have no continued number of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks , succeeding one another from Christ and his Apostles to this time in the profession of the same Faith or Tenets , the nine and thirty Articles , or any other set number of Tenets expresly holding and denying all the same points . Therefore Protestants have no continued Succession from Christ and his Apostles to this time . The Major is manifest , because it proceeds from the Definition to the thing defined . The Minor is proved , because Protestants have never yet been able , nor ever will , to assign any such number of men whom they have succeeded in their nine and thirty Articles , or Luther in his Augustan Confession , when he revolted from the Catholick Church , no nor yet any one single Diocese or Biscop .

Answ. 1. THis Argument is thus justly retorted ; Without a continued number of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks , succeeding one another in the profession of the same Faith from Christ and his Apostles to this time a continued Succession cannot be had . But Papists have no continued number of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks , succeeding one another from Christ and his Apostles to this time in the profession of the same Faith or Tenets , the Canons of the Trent Council , the Articles in the Bull of Pope Pius the fourth , or any other set number of Tenets expresly holding and denying all the same points : therefore Papists have no continued Succession from Christ and his Apostles to this time . The Major is manifest , because it proceeds from the Definition to the thing defined . The Minor is proved , because Papists have never yet been able , nor ever will , to assign any such number of men , whom they have succeeded in their Trent Canons , and the Articles of the Creed injoyned to be professed and sworn to in the Bull of Pope Pius the fourth . If any man pretend to such a Catalogue , let him name none but such as held explicitely the Doctrine of the Tridentin Canons , the Roman Catechism , the Articles of the Creed injoyned by Pope Pius the fourth his Bull , all granting and denying the same points , that the late Faction of Romanists or Italian popish Sectaries granted and denied , or that our new Reformers the Jesuites deny and grant ; for if they differ from them in any one material point they cannot be esteemed Catholiks . Let him not name Christ , John Baptist , Peter , Paul , or any the Apostles , or the Roman Church in their days . For they did not admit and embrace the now called Apostolick Ecclesiastick traditions unwritten , and other observances and constitutions of the Roman Church , nor held it the right of the Roman Church to define the true sense and interpretation of holy Scripture to be received by all , nor truly and properly seven Sacraments of the new Law instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ ; and necessary to the salvation of mankinde , nor allowed the received Rites of the Roman Church used in solemn administration of all the Sacraments , nor all the things which concerning original sin and justification were defined and declared in the Council of Trent , nor did acknowledge that in the Mass is offered to God a true proper and propitiatory Sacrifice for the quick and the dead : and that in the holy Eucharist is truly , really , and substantially , the body and blood with the soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ ; and that there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the bread into his body , and of the whole substance of the wine into his blood , which conversion the Roman Church calleth Transubstantiation , nor that under one kinde onely all and whole Christ , and the true Sacrament is received , nor that there is a Purgatory , and the souls detained there are holp by the Suffrages of the faithfull , nor that the Saints reigning with Christ are to be worshipped and prayed unto , nor their Relicks to be worshipped , nor that the Images of Christ and the Mother of God , always a Virgin , and other Saints are to be had and retained , and that to them honour and veneration is to be given , nor that the power of Indulgences ( such as the Pope grants ) was left by Christ in the Church , nor that the use thereof is most wholesome to Christ's people , nor that the Roman Church is the holy Catholick and Apostolick Church , nor the Mother and Mistress of all Churches , nor that true obedience is to be vowed and sworn to the Bishop of Rome , nor that he is the Successor of Peter , nor that Peter is the Prince of the Apostles , and Vicar of Jesus Christ . Neither let them name the Popes Councils or Fathers for the first five hundred years , for they held not these points . Papists pretence to the Fathers of the first five hundred years is very idle , because were it true , as it is most false , that those Fathers were Papists , yet could not that suffice to prove them a continued Succession of sixteen hundred years . Secondly , because those of the sixth Age must needs know better what was the Religions and Tenets of them who lived in the fifth Age by whom they were instructed , and with whom they daily conversed , then our modern Papists can now do , and they have not protested on their salvation that it was the very same with the now popish Doctrine , nor that they received it from them by word of mouth , and so from age to age : and finally , because if our Tenets in which we differ from Papists , and are opposed by them , be taught and approved by the Fathers of the first five hundred years , then it is wholly impossible they should be for Papists and against us . But our Doctrines ( in which we differ from Papists , and are opposed by them ) are taught and approved by the Fathers of the first five hundred years . Therefore it is impossible that the Fathers of the first five hundred years should be for Papists and against us . The Major is manifest of it self . The Minor is proved 1. By what hath been already cited out of those Fathers , as also by what shall be cited out of them in the following dispute . 2. By the ingenuous confessions of our Adversaries . Cardinal Cusanus in his second Book of Catholick Concord , cap. 13. saith , The Pope is not the universal Bishop , but the first above or among others . Cardinal Bessarion of the Sacrament of the Eucharist , We reade that these two onely Sacraments were delivered plainly in the Gospel . Cardinal Cajetan , tract . de Indulg . cap. 1. There can be no certainty found touching the beginning of Indulgences : there is no authority of the Scripture , or ancient Fathers , Greek or Latin , that brings it to our knowledge . Durand . in lib. 4. sent. dist. 20. qu 3. Of Indulgences few things can be said of certainty , because the Scripture speaks not expresly of them . Cardinal Fisher Bishop of Rochester , Assert . Luth. confes . art. 18. pag. 86. Touching Purgatory there was very little mention or none at all , among the ancient , as the Greeks to this day believe it not : which words are cited by Polyd. Virgil. lib. 8. de invent . rerum , cap. 1. Cardinal Bellarmine , lib. 5. de Just. cap 7. For the uncertainty of our own righteousness , and for avoiding of vain-glory it is most sure and safe to repose our whole confidence in the alone mercy and goodness of God . Cardinal Cajetan in 3. part . 2. Th. qu. 80. art. 12. qu 3. The custome of the peoples receiving the Wine endured long in the Church . Georg. Cass in his Defence of his Book entituled [ De officio pii viri ] saith , The use of the Blood of our Lord together with his Body in the ministring of this Sacrament , is both of the institution of Christ , and observed by the custome of the whole Church for above a thousand years , and unto this day of the Eastern Churches . And although the use of one kinde came up about the year 1200. yet the most learned of those times never taught that it was necessary so to be observed . Tonstal Bishop of Durhom , de verit . corp. & sanguinis , p. 46. till the Council of Lateran it was free for all men to follow their own conjecture concerning the manner of Christs presence in the Eucharist . Polydor Virgil. de invent . rer. l. 6. 13. afore the Index Expurgatorius put them out , had these words , By the testimony of Hierom it appears how in a manner all the ancient holy Fathers condemned the worship of images for fear of Idolatry . Cassand . consult . tit. de imag. It is verily manifest out of Augustin , writing on Psal. 113. that in his age the use of Images in Churches was not . Claudius Espencaeus a Bishop in Tit. c. 1. many hundred years after the Apostles by reason of the want of others , Priests were married , Greg. de Val. tom. 4. disp. 9. punct. 5. sect. 9. with others confesseth , that in the most ancient times of the Church , and after the Apostles death Priests had their wives . Harding in his answer to Jewel on the third Article ; Verily in the primitive Church this was necessary , when the faith was in learning . And therefore the prayers were made then in a common known tongue to the people , for cause of their further instruction , who being of late converted to the faith , and of Painims made Christians had need in all things to be taught . John Hart in his Epistle to the Reader before the conference with Dr. Rainold in the Tower ; In truth I think , that although the spiritual power be more excellent than the temporal , yet they are both of God , neither doth the one depend of the other . Whereupon I gather as a certain conclusion , that the opinion of them who hold the Pope to be a temporal Lord over Kings and Princes , is unreasonable and improbable altogether . For he hath not to meddle with them or theirs civilly , much less to depose them , or give away their Kingdoms : that is no part of his commission . He hath in my judgement the Fatherhood of the Church , not a Princehood of the world : Christ himself taking no such title on him , nor giving it to Peter or any other of his Disciples . Bishop Jewels challenge and performance is known , Bishop Mortons Catholick Apology and Appeal , besides many other books are extant ; by which it may be plainly discerned , that Papists have not the Fathers of the first five hundred years for them , and that even the learned writers of the Popish party have vented so much in their writings , as yeilds an apology for Protestants in all or many of the points in difference between Protestants and Papists .

SECT. III.

Protestants have had a sufficient succession to aver their doctrin in the Latin Churches .

BUt I shall add a direct answer to H. T. his argument . 1. By denying his syllogism to be right , as having these words added in the minor [ or tenets , &c. ] which were not in the Major , whereby there is a fourth term , which makes a syllogism naught . 2. By denying his Major , and as a reason of that denial I say , agreement of doctrin with Christ and his Apostles in the main points of faith and worship , though there be no Bishops nor Priests is sufficient to a true Church ; and such succession as H. T. requires is not necessary . 3. To the Minor , though Protestants have not a continued number of Bishops , Priests and Laicks succeeding one another from Christ and his Apostles to this time in the profession of the same faith or tenets , the thirty nine Articles or any other set number of tenets expresly holding and denying all the same points ; yet they do agree with Christ and his Apostles in the doctrin of the Christian faith , and the Christian worship ; and there hath been a succession in all ages hitherto of Christian professors holding the same points of faith in the fundamentals , although sometimes more purely and conspicuously than at other times ; and they have opposed , though not with the like success , agreement , or largeness in every age , the Popish errors now avouched in Pope Pius the fourth his Creed and the Trent Canons . And for answer to the proofs of the Major : I deny , that the Major proceeds from the definition to the thing defined , [ a continued number of Bishops , Pri●sts and Laicks succeeding one another in the profession of the same faith from Christ and his Apostles to this time ] being not the definition of the continued succession necessary to the being of the true Church of God ; as hath been proved before in the answer to the former Article , Sect , 4. 5. And to the proof of the Minor : I answer , that Protestants may have true succession from Christ and his Apostles , and may be esteemed Christians and Catholicks , though they differ in many material points , as long as they hold the same fundamental points , and Protestants , opposing all or some of the chief points of Popery as they arose and were discovered to them , though they did not discern all their errors , nor relinquish all their practises , or the communion of the Churches subject to the Bishop of Romes rule ; but they were truely Protestants , however otherwise named , while they did hold the same fundamental truths we hold , and opposed , as they appeared to them , all or some of the Popish corrupt worship and errors , which the Protestants now do . And for proof of this we rightly name the Waldenses , Hussites , Wicklevists , Albigenses , Puritan Waldenses , Beringarians , Grecians , of whom writers testifie they excepted against the Popes supremacy , purgatory , half communion , transubstantiation , setting up and worship of Images , propitiatory sacrifice of the Masse for quick and dead , invocation and worship of Angels and Saints deceased , seven Sacraments , with other errors of the now Romanists ; and yet in the chief points of Christian faith and worship did agree with the now Protestants , as may be gathered from the confessions , and writings of their own , either extant or acknowledged in the histories and writings of their adversaries , such as were Rainerius , Aeneas Sylvius , Cochlaeus , and others . See Samuel Morlands history of the Evangelical Churches in Piedmont the first book , by which their confessions and treatises are brought to light agreeing with Protestants . What H. T. brings against this is either falsly ascribed to them by the calumnies of their adversaries , whose recitals of their opinions to the worst sense no man hath reason to believe , especially considering their works extant do refute them , and it hath been often complained of , that they have been misinterpreted and misreported ; or else , if true , is insufficient to invalidate our allegation of them .

H. T. tells us the Waldenses held the real presence , that the Apostles were lay men , that all Magistrates fell from their dignity by any mortal sin , that it is not lawful to swear in any case , &c. Illiricus in Catalog . Waldens. Confes . Bohem. a. 1. and Waldo an unlearned Merchant of Lyons lived but in the year 1160.

Answ. Sure he was not altogether unlearned , of whom it is said by some that have seen his doings yet remaining in old parchment monuments , that it appeareth he was both able to declare and to translate the books of Scripture , also did collect the Doctors minas upon the same . Yet were he unlearned , sure he had store of companions among the Romanists , Friers , Bishops and Popes of those times , by one of whom a Bishop was condemned as an heretick , for holding that there are Antipodes ; and Paul the second saith , Platina pronounced them hereticks , who should from thence forth mention the name of the Academy , either in earnest or in jest . The very decrees and Epistles of the Popes in their Canon law shew , that few of them had any skill in the Scriptures or the original languages competent to divines , and who so readeth their writings observingly , shall find that the ablest of their schoolmen in those dayes were very ignorant of the Scripture sense and language . Nor do I think the Popes and generality of Bishops and Priests , and Preachers among the Romanists at this day are men of much learning in the holy Scriptures . So that I presume Waldus , as unlearned as he was , was comparable to the Roman Clergy at that time in learning , and for holiness of life , by the relation even of Popish writers , exceeding them as much as gold exceeds lead , and therefore as likely to know the mind of God as any Pope , or Bishop , or Frier at that time . Now clear it is by an ancient manuscript alledged by the Magdeburg . cent. 12. c. 8. that the Waldenses held , that the Scripture is the only rale in the Articles of faith , fathers and councils no otherwise to be received then as they agree with the Scriptures , that the Scriptures are to be read by all sorts of men , that there are two Sacraments of the Church , that the Lords supper is appointed by Christ , and to be received by all sorts in both kinds , that Masses were impious , and that it was a madness to say Masses for the dead , purgatory to be a figment , the invocation and worship of dead Saints to be idolatry , the Roman Church to be the whore of Babylon , that the Pope hath not the supremacy of all the Churches of Christ , marriage of Priests to be lawful : with sundry more , which are agreeable to Protestant tenets against Papists : which is confirmed , because much to the same purpose Aeneas Sylvius in his Bohemian history writes of their opinions . Nor is it likely they held what they are said by H. T. to have held . For it appears by the dispute between them and one Dr. Austin , set down by Mr. Fox Acts and Monuments at the year 1179. out of Orthuinus de gratiis , that their opinion was , that Christ is one and the same with his natural body in the Sacrament , which he is at the right hand of his Father : but not after the same existence of his body . For the existence of his body in heaven is personal and local : there to be apprehended by the faith and spirit of men . In the Sacrament the existence of his body is not personal or local to be apprehended or received of our bodies , after a personal or corporal manner , but after a Sacramental manner : that is , where our bodies receive the sign , and our spirit the thing signified . And Illyric . cat . test . verit . tells us , that it is said to be their opinion , that the transubstantiation is not made in the hand of the conficient , but in the mouth of him that receives it worthily . And though he sets down the words of Rainerius as they were , yet he conceives the things objected were calumnies . As for what is brought out of the B●hemian confession , Anno 1535 it speaks of their tenet then , but not what those in Gallia held in and about the time of Waldus , who from him were termed Waldenses . It is probable they might say the Apostles were lay men not ordained , or tradesmen , as Peter was a fisher , Paul a tentmaker , not thereby derogating from the Apostles function , when they were made Apostles , but endeavouring to abate the arrogance of the Bishops and Priests , who appropriated to themselves the title of the clergy ( which Peter , 1 Pet. 5. 3. gave to all the flock of Christ ) and the power only to translate , read , expound and preach the Scriptures , which the Waldenses held to be free to all men . By Magistrates falling from their dignity by mortal sin , its likely they meant Ecclesiastical , whom they held God did suspend from the exercise of their function , when they lived wickedly , they being not to receive , and so not to consecrate , as I find it in , Illyric . catal . or perhaps they meant it , that Magistrates were not to be obeyed in their wicked commands , or ( as it is most probable they meant it ) it was just with God they should fall from their dignity ; and that he by his providence did so order it , not that men might depose them , as Papists have taught , nor that ipso facto they cease to be Magistrates . The same thing also H. T. saith of the Wiclesians out of the council of Constance , and imputes to them and to the Hussites from the council of Constance , that all things came to pass by fatal necessity , misunderstanding necessity of event by reason of Gods decree for fatal stoick necessity , and that all the works of the predestinate are vertues , which arose from their doctrine , that they could not fall from the faith , as if thereby they must hold , that then they could not sin . That the Waldenses held it not lawful to swear at all , is not so likely , as that they held the frequency of swearing unlawful , which is made the occasion of their denying swearing to be lawful , by Rainerias himself in Illyr. catal . or perhaps they rejected monkish vows and oaths of canonical obedience , and many other oaths imposed on men , together with swearing by the Mass , Cross , Rod , on a Book . But if they held all swearing unlawful , they held what Sixtus Sene●si● , lib. 6. Biblioth. Annot. 26. saith is conceived to have been held by many Fathers . Origen , Athanasius , Epiphanius , Hilarius , Ambrosius , Chromatius , Hieronimus , Chrysostomus , Theophylactus , Oecumenius , Euthymius , whom he excuseth and endeavours to acquit from error , and so do others the Waldenses , Wiclevists , &c. as Birkbck in cent. 14. doth Wicleff out of his Latin exposition of the second Commandment .

That the Hussites held Mass , transubstantiation and seven Sacraments with the now Romanists , I find not in Mr. Fox , nor doth H. T. tell me where I may find it in him ; that the Hussites or Wicleff held all the works of the predestinate to be vertues , or that all things come to pass by fatal necessity ( meaning of a concatenation of two causes antecedent to Gods decree , and binding him ) is no more to be believed , because the council of Constance condemned them , then that Wicleff held that God was to obey the Devil , because it was so charged on him , from which his learned works yet remaining do free him . And it is found that the clamorous Jesuits endeavor to fasten the like odious inferences on the doctrine of predestination taught by Calvin and other Protestants , which being rightly understood infers them not .

What Bernard saith , and Roger Hoveden of the Albigenses , and Rainerius of the Catharists might be true of some of those that went under their name , as the Gnosticks did of Christians , and perhaps some Ranters or Quakers may do under the name of Protestants . But the errors are contrary to the Waldenses , Wiclevists , Hussites confessions and writings yet remaining , and Rainerius his own words , that the Waldenses or Leonists did believe all things well of God , and all the Articles which are contained in the Creed , do acquit them : and they seem to be the errors of some remnant of the Manichees . But perhaps Bernard was mistaken in the charge on them , as he was in the accusation of Petrus Abailardus and others The tenets that the universal Church ( meaning the Catholick Church which we believe in the Creed ) consisteth only of the predestinate , that they cannot fall from the faith meaning totally or finally , are the opinions of many learned Protestants , and therefore the Hussites holding them , may notwithstanding those opinions be reckoned for Protestants . Nevertheless were it true , that the Hussites and Wiclevists and Waldenses taught what H. T. saith of them , yet we might alledge them as witnesses against the now Popish errors , which they then declared against , and a catalogue of Protestant successors continued from the Apostles in the naming them , rightly formed .

SECT. IV.

The succession in the Greek Churches may be alleged for Protestants , notwithstanding H. T. his exceptions .

A Catalogue of Bishops , Priests and Laicks in the Greek churches continued in the profession of the same faith with the Protestants against Popish errors is alleged by some learned Protestants . Against which H. T. excepts . 1. That they rejected the communion of the Protestants , censur . eccles. orientalis . Answ. This doth not prove they professed not the same faith with Protestants against Papists . For they might upon some differences , upon which perhaps they disagree with the Romanists , reject the communion of the Protestants , and yet profess with Protestants the same faith , and oppose the same Popish errors .

2. Saith he , they were at least seven or eight hundred years in the communion of the Roman Church , as witness the first eight general councils all held in Greece , and approved by the Popes of Rome . Answ. To speak exactly , a general council is a black Swan , there having never been any council so general , but that there have wanted messengers from many Christian Churches in the world . The four first councils of the Bishops of the Empire have gotten a great repute in the Christian Churches , and have been accounted as the four Evangelists , though the canons extant even of the first Nicene council have no such excellency in them , as to deserve so great an opinion . Of the four later , surely the two last lesse deserve the name ; the later Nicene council being affronted by the Carolin council about Images at Frankford , and the eighth by another of the same place of better note , by Michael the Emperor and Photius the learned Parriarch of Constantinople , who sure acknowledged not the Popes Monarchy , but lived and died in contest against them . But neither the four first , nor the four last did ever ascribe to the Pope of Rome the monarchy and supremacy , which are now arrogated , nor did they ever receive what they professed , because they professed it , nor doth the desire or acceptance , much lesse the having the Popes approbation at all prove any authority over them in him , it being a thing usual to seek approbation of men , who have no authority over the seekers , by reason of their esteem for prudence , learning and other qualities , and for the more ready receipt of what they seek to have approved . But the councils determinations , and that with Anathema to the gainsayers , shewed that they judged themselves to have decisive power without the Pope , though his consent also were added as useful for some purposes .

3. Saith H. T. The first revolt was made by the Grecians denying the procession of the holy Ghost from God the Son , they were united again to the Church of Rome in the council of Florence sess. last .

Answ. 1. The denying of the procession of the Holy Ghost from God the Son , is shewed to be an error only in manner of speaking , by Sir Richard Field of the Church , third book , ch. 1. and other learned men . 2. The revolt so long shews the Protestants had predecessors for many hundred years together in opposing the usurpations and errors of the Roman Popes and Churches . 3. The reconciliation at Florence was but an imperfect thing , by persons whose acts were not avowed afterwards , nor did the union hold , but was quickly dissolved . 4. The council of Florence was a council not allowed by that at Basil as being only of a faction to avoid the questioning of Pope Eugenius . See Platina in vita Eugenii . 4.

4. Saith H. T. they held transubstantiation , seven Sacraments , unbloody sacrifice , prayer to Saints and for the dead , cens . eccles. orientalis , c. 7 , 10 , 12 , 13 , 21.

Answ. The Grecians hold not any such transubstantiation as whereby the elements are abolished , and cease to be that they were , but whereby they become what they were not , and the transubstantiation they hold is a change of the communicants into the being of Christ , that is partakers of the divine nature , as the Apostle means when he saith they are the body of Christ , as Dr. Field proves out of Dam. scen , Cyril and others in his third book of the Church , ch. 1. Bishop Jewel reply to Hardings answer , art. 10. Nor are the speeches of transubstantiation , transelementation and such like terms , used by the Greeks , any other than lofty hyperbolical speeches , such as the Apostle useth when he saith , Christ was crucified among the Galatians , Gal. 3. 1. which abound in Chrysostome , Pseudo , Dionysius Areopagita &c. insomuch , that Chrysostom sometimes expresseth the presence of Christ in the eucharist , as if it were sensible , the communicants touching Christs body , seeing his blood , having their mouths made red by it , sucking his blood , receiving him into our house , with more of the like , as may be seen in Chamier . Panstr . cath. tom. 4. lib. 11. c. 9. As for seven Sacraments , the Greeks do not teach them to be so many , and no more , nor the unbloody sacrifice any otherwise , then by it to mean a commemoration of the sacrifice of Christ , as Chrysostom in his hom. on the tenth to the Hebrew expresseth it . It cannot be proved that the Greeks use such prayer to Saints as the Papists do , directing their prayers to them as hearers , and by vertue of their merits helpers to them that call on them . Neither do they pray for the dead shut up in purgatory ( which as I alleged out of Roffensis , the Greeks do this day deny ) and there enduring punishment of sense , for deliverance thence , but commemorate the dead , even the most holy martyrs and confessors , and pray for their happy resurrection and acquittal in the last judgement . As for the Egyptian Christians and Armenians , what they hold is not so easie to know by reason of their remoteness from Europe , nor what Succession they have had . But this is manifest enough , that they did never submit to the Bishop of Rome as their Head , except what was done at Florence ( for which Michael Paleologus the Greek Emperour was abhorred by the Greeks , and denied Burial , and Isidor Arch-bishop of Kio●ia in Russta deposed and put to death ) or by some obscure persons , whose acts the Churches never owned , and yet there doth not appear sufficient reason to exclude them out of the Catholick Church , notwithstanding such Errours as are imputed to them , nor to question their Succession . Nor is the Protestants pretence to the Fathers of the first five hundred years idle , ( it being not false , but most true , and so proved by Jewel and others , and the Answers of Harding and other Romanists proved insufficient ) that they were in the most material points Protestants , that is held otherwise than the Romanists now do . And though it prove not a Succession of sixteen hundred years continued , yet it proves a Succession of so long continuance as will make void the popish claim of Succession as peculiar to them , and with any considerate person so far take place as to justifie the Protestants opposition against the modern Papist's Errours and Innovations . 'T is true , those of the sixth Age must needs know better what was the Religions and Tenets of them who lived in the fifth Age by whom they were instructed , and with whom they daily conversed , than Protestants can now do , in those things which they delivered by word of mouth to them , if they were heedfull , intelligent , and mindefull of what they heard . But what they left in writing we may know as well as they . And experience shews that oft times upon mistakes , and sometimes voluntarily the sayings of men spoken , yea sometimes their very Writings , either by unskilfulness , or negligence , or fraud , are mis-reported , and therefore notwithstanding this reason of the acquaintance of those of the sixth Age with those of the fifth , yet it may be that Protestants may know the minde of the Fathers in the fifth Age as well as those that lived in the sixth . But that those of the sixth Age have protested on their salvation that the Doctrine taught by the Fathers in the fifth Age was the very same with their , in every point , or the Doctrine now taught by the Romanists was received from them by word of mouth , and so from Age to Age is not true ; yet if they should , we have no more cause to credit them , than the Church had to believe the Millenaries and Quartodesimans , because of Papias and others their report of John , with whom they conversed .

SECT. V.

The Romanists Doctrine as it is now was not the Doctrine of the Fathers of the first five hundred years , nor is acknowledged to be so by the learned Protestants .

H. T adds a third Argument to prove , that his with other Romanists Doctrines , ( in which they differ from Protestants and are opposed by them ) are taught and approved by the Fathers of the first five hundred years , which he thinks to prove by that he hath cited , and shall cite out of the Fathers , and the confessions of his Adversaries , and to that end cites some Speeches of Fulk , Kemnitius , Whitgrft , Calvin , Whitaker , Peter Martyr , Duditius , Rainolds , Jewel : and then infers triumphantly , therefore the Father of the first five hundred years are not for Protestants , but for us ; therefore Protestants are utterly at a loss in the point of continued Succession .

Answ. 1. WHat is before cited hath been shewed to be insufficient , and so will what is after , if God vouchsafe me time and strength to that end . 2. Of the passages cited , the two last are not to the purpose , and they are maimedly , and corruptly cited . The Speeches , as they are cited , say not any thing of the popish Doctrin taught and approved by the Fathers of the first five hundred years , but the uncertainty of finding out the truth by their sayings without the Scriptures . And that the dealing of this Author may appear , I shall set down the words as I finde them in Jewel's Apology , part. 4. cap. 22. divis . 3. For where these men bid the holy Scriptures away as dumb and fruitless , and procure us to come to God himself , who speaks in the Church and in their Councils , that is to say , to believe their fancies and opinions this way , finding out the truth is very uncertain , and exceeding dangerous , and in a manner a fantastical and mad way , and by no means allowed of the holy Fathers . Which Speech is a most true and savoury Speech , yet not in the least intimating a diffidence of the Fathers of the first five hundred years being for the Papists ( the contrary to which Bishop Jewel shewed in his famous Challenge at Paul's Cross , and his making it good against Harding ) but onely vindicating the holy Scriptures from the foul Speeches of Hosius , Pighius , and other Romanists , and asserting the authority of the holy Scriptures . The other passage which is cited out of Dr. Rainold's Conference ( in H. T. it is printed Confess . ) cap. 5. divis. 1. is as corruptly and maimedly cited , the words being thus at large , Indeed Vincentius Lirinensis preferreth this mark ( of truth the consent of the Fathers ) before the rest , as having held when they failed . Nevertheless he speaketh not of it neither , as that it may serve for trial and decision of questions between us . For what doth he acknowlege to be a point approved , and such as we are bound to believe by this mark ? even that which the Fathers all with one consent have held , written , taught , plainly , commonly , continually . And who can avouch of any point in question , that not one or two but all the Fathers held it , nor onely held it , but also wrote it ; nor onely wrote it , but alotaught it ; not darkly , but plainly ; not seldom , but commonly ; not for a short season , but continually : which so great consent is partly so rare , and so hard to be found , partly so unsure , though it might be found , that himself ( to fashion it to some use and certainty ) is fain to limit and restrain it . Which words were sound , and are necessary , but not spoken out of any distrust of his cause or imagination , as if the Fathers of the first five hundred years were for the Papists . For in that very conference he largely proves , that not onely the Fathers of the first five hundred years , but also the succeeding Councils and Fathers till the sixteenth Century , did onely yield the Pope a Primacy among other Patriarchs , but not a Supremacy over the whole Church , and that Primacy that was given him was by custome of the Church for the honour of the Imperial City ( which was auserible ) not because of any grant of Christ , which was irrevocable . Duditius was one whom by Thranus his description of him , Hist l. 96. towards the end , Martyr's Speech respects onely the point of vows , which is not a point of saith . Whitaker's Speech is not of the Fathers of the first 500. years , but of the ancient Church , which might be after , or onely in some part of that time . The words of Calvin , lib 3. instit. cap. 5. parag 10. are not rightly alleged , being not together as H. T. cites them , but injuriously pieced out of Speeches , that are distant one from another He doth not deny , nor yet expresly say , that it was a custome thirteen hundred years ago to pray for the dead : but whereas it was objected by the Adversaries , he urgeth , that if it were so , it was without Scripture , that it came out of carnal affection , that what we reade in the Ancients done therein was yielded to the common manner and ignorance of the vulgar , he confesseth they were carried away into errour , but faith not , they were all of that time carried away into errour , that same testimonies of the Ancients might be brought which overthrow all those prayers for the dead , that their prayers for the dead were not without hesitancy , that they were different from the popish in divers things . The words of Whitgifts Defense , pag. 473. are mis-cited , being not as H. T. cites them , All the Bishops and learned Writers of the Greek and Latin Church too , for the most part , were spotted with the Doctrines of Free will , Merit , Invocation of Saints , but thus , How greatly were almost all the Bishops and learned Writers of the Greek Church , yea and the Latins also for the most part spotted with the Doctrines of Free-will , of Merits , Invocation of Saints , and such like ? Surely you are not able to reckon in any Age since the Apostles time any company of Bishops that taught and held so sound and perfect Doctrine in all points as the Bishops of England do at this time . The words of Kemnitius I finde not , perhaps because the Edition is not named with the Page . But this I finde in the third part of his Examen , pag. 628. Francos . Edit. 1609. that he not onely asserted , but also proved , that in the Primitive Church unto two hundred years after Christ born , the Doctrine of the Suffrages , Patronages , Intercessions , Merits , Aid , Help , and Invocation of Saints in Heaven , was altogether unknown , and the reason or account of the veneration of Saints was then far other , as we have shewed , than that which was brought in . I have not Fulk's Retentives against Bristow's Motives by me , which I imagine is the Book which H. T. cites under the Title of Riot Briston : but his citing with an &c. and so small a shred of the Authour makes me conceive that he wronged Fulk by that maimed citation , however sith the confession is but of three Fathers , and the Saints whether living or dead , and their invocation of what sort he meant being not expressed , it serves not the turn to prove his confession of the Fathers of the first five hundred years , holding Popish Invocation of Saints deceased .

SECT. VI.

The Answers of H. T. to the Objections of Protestants concerning their Succession are shewed to be vain , and the Apostacy of the Roman Church proved .

AFter the rest of his scribling H. T. under the Title of Objection solved , saith thus , Object . In all the Ages before Luther Protestants had a Church though it were invisible . Answ. This is a meer Mid-summer nights Dream , that a Church ( which is a congregation of visible men , preaching , baptizing , and converting Nations ) should be extant for a thousand years , and yet be all this while invisible , neither to be seen or heard of in the World .

I reply , who frames the Objection as this Authour sets it down I know not , sure I am that many of the Protestants do frame it otherwise , that the Protestants had Churches afore Luther , who did oppose popish innovations , and that these were visible , though not to their Enemies , nor in so conspicuous a manner as the Roman Senate or Common-wealth of Venice , and this is no Mid-summer nights Dream any more than that Papists have a Church in England in communion with the See of Rome , and that they have Masses , Baptizing , &c. although it be not known to Protestants , nor so conspicuous as that we know where to go to them . And these Churches have been seen and known in the World , partly separate from the Roman Church , partly continuing within the Roman Church , but yet opposing the p●pal usurpations and corruptions . As for H. T. his Definition of a Church , it is to me more like a Mid-Summer nights Dream . For is the Church a congregation of visible men preaching , baptizing , and converting Nations ? Are all the visible men in the congregation , which is the Church , men preaching , baptizing , and converting Nations ? May not a Church be a congregation of men that convert not any Nation if themselves be converted , that baptize not others if themselves be baptized , that preach not if they have heard , received and profess the Word preached ? Are not Women part of the congregation , which is the Church ? Do they preach and baptize ? However it is well this Authour sets down Preaching and Baptizing as acts whereby the men who are of the congregation , which is the Church , are visible ; which is all one with the marks of the visible Church given by the Protestants , to wit , preaching the Word and administring the Sacraments .

H. T. adds , Object . The Church in communion with the See of Rome was the true Church till she apostatized and fell from the faith .

Answ. If she were once the true Church , she is and shall be so for ever ; she cannot fail , as hath been proved , nor erre in faith , as shall be proved hereafter .

I reply . It is , true Protestants yield that the Churches in communion with the Bishops of Rome were true Churches while they held the faith of Christ entire , and did not by their innovations subvert it , which was in process of time done by altering of the rule of faith , the Apostolical tradition of the holy Scripture into unwritten tradition , the Popes determinations and canons of councils as the sense of the Scripture , or the revelations of the Spirit of God , and by bringing in the invocation and worship of the Virgin Mary and other Saints , altering the Sacrament of the Lords Supper instituted for a commemoration of his death into a propitiatory sacrifice for quick and dead , asserting transubstantiation , and adoring of the bread , worshipping images and reliques , perverting the Gospel by bringing in the doctrines of humane satisfactions for sin , power to fulfill the law , justification by works , and meriting eternal life , instead of free remission of sins to the penitent believer only through the blood of Christ , and justification by faith in Christ without the works of the law . In which points that the Churches now in communion with the See of Rome have apostatized , is apparent by this argument . Those Churches have apostatized , who have left the faith once delivered to the Saints by the Apostles of Christ . But the Churches now in communion with the See of Rome , have left the faith once delivered to the Saints by the Apostles of Christ : therefore the Churches now in communion with the See of Rome have apostatized . The Major is evident from the terms , apostasie being no other thing than leaving the faith once delivered to the Saints by the Apostles of Christ . The minor is manifest by comparing the doctrine of the council of Trent , and Pope Pius the fourth his Creed with the Apostles writings , especially the Epistle to the Romans by Paul , which shews what once the church of Rome believed . For instance it is said , Rom. 15. 4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning , that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope . 2 Tim. 3. 15 , 16 , 17. And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures , which are able to make thee wise unto salvation , through faith which is in Christ Jesus . All Scripture is given by inspiration of God , and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness , that the man of God may be perfect throughly furnished unto all good works . Eph. 2. 20. And are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner-stone , which plainly prove the Scriptures use for all sorts , sufficiency , and divinity , and the needlesness of unwritten traditions to guide us to salvation . Rom. 12. 5. We being many are one body in Christ , and every one members one of another . 1 Cor. 12. 12. For as the body is one and hath many members , and all the members of that one body being many are one body : so also is Christ . Ver. 13. For by one spirit we are all baptized into one body , whether we be Jews or Gentiles , whether we be bond or free , ver. 27. Now ye are the body of Christ and members in particular , ver. 28. And God hath set some in the Church , first Apostles , &c. Ephes. 1. 22. and gave him to be head over all things to the Church which is his body , which prove the Catholick Church to have extended to all believers of Jews and Gentiles , and that they ( and not the Roman only , or those that are in communion with it ) are that one body or Catholick Church , and that there is no other head of the whole Church but Christ , nor any Apostle above another ; and consequently the Roman Church and Pope have no supremacy over the rest of the Churches . Rom. 10 14. How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed . 1 Tim. 2. 5. There is one God and one Mediator between God and men , the man Christ Jesus , which prove they then received not the invocation of Saints , nor made the Virgin Mary or any other deceased Saint , Mediators between God and men . 1 Cor. 11. 23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28. after his blaming them for disorder about the Lords supper , he saith thus , For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you , that the Lord Jesus , the same night in which he was betrayed took bread : and when he had given thanks he brake it and said , take , eat , this is my body , which is broken for you : this do in remembrance of me . After the same manner also he took the cup when he had supped saying , this cup is the New Testament in my blood : this do ye as oft as ye drink it in remembrance of me . For as oft as ye eat this bread and drink this cup ye do shew the Lords death till he come . Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread , and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily , shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord . But let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of that bread , and drink of that cup. 1 Cor. 10. 16 , 17. The cup of blessing which we bless , is it not the communion of the blood of Christ ? The bread which we break , is it not the communion of the body of Christ ? for we being many are one bread and one body : for we are all partakers of that one bread . Which texts plainly shew , that what is eaten in the Eucharist is bread , and therefore not flesh , and consequently no transubstantiation , that the actions are commemorate signs of Christs death ; therefore no propitiatory sacrifice : that bread was to be broken and eaten , therefore not to be whole and swallowed down . Heb. 9. 26. But now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself . Heb. 10. 10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all , which shew there is no more sacrifice or offering of Christ in the church of Christ to be continued by a Priest . Rom. 1. 25. who changed the truth of God into a lye , and worshipped the creature besides , or more than the Creator . 1 Thes. 1. 9. ye turned to God from Idols to serve the living and the true God , therefore they worshipped not bread , nor crosses , nor reliques as Papists do . Rom. 3. 28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law . Rom. 4. 5. But to him that worketh not , but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly , his faith is counted to him for righteousness . Rom. 5. 1. Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God . Rom. 8. 1. There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus . ver. 3 , 4. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh , God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh , and for sin , condemned sin in the flesh , that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us . ver. 18. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time , are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us . Rom. 9. 11. For the children being not yet born , neither having done any good or evil , that the purpose of God according to election might stand , not of works , but of him that calleth . 16. So then it is not in him that willeth , nor in him that runneth , but of God that sheweth mercy . Rom. 10. 3 , 4 , 5 , 10. For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness , and going about to establish their own righteousness , have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God . For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth . For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law , that the man which doth them shall live in them . For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness , and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation . Rom. 11. 6. And if by grace , then is it no more of work , otherwise grace is no more grace : but if it be of work , then it is no more grace , otherwise work is no more work . 1 Cor. 1. 30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus , who of God is made unto us wisdome , and righteousness , and sanctification , and redemption , 1 Cor. 4. 4. I know nothing by my self , yet am I not thereby justified . ver. 7. who maketh thee to differ from another ? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive ? now if thou didst receive it , why dost thou glory as if thou hadst not received it ? Gal. 2. 16 , 17 , 21. knowing that a man is not justified by the law , but by the faith of Jesus Christ : we seek to be justified by Christ . I do not frustrate the grace of God : for if righteousness come by the law , then Christ is dead in vain : to which may be added , Gal. 3. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. & 5. 4 , 5. Ephes. 2. 8 , 9. Phil. 3. 8 , 9. Tit. 3. 5 , 6 , 7. 1 John 1. 7. which overthrow forgiveness of sins for our satisfaction , merit of glory by any Saints works , righteousness by works and such other tenets as whereby Papists extol man , and debase the grace of God , which will more fully appear by refuting the shifts of the Romanists in the discussing of the following articles .

As for what H. T. saith here , if the Church in communion with the See of Rome were once the true Church , she is and shall be so for ever , if meant of the visible Church militant ( of which alone is the question ) it must rest either on this proposition , every true visible Church militant is and shall be a true Church for ever , which is proved false by the instances of the Hierosolymitan , Antiochian , Alexandrian , Ephesian , Corinthian and other Churches . Where there are not now churches of Christ , but Mahometans , at least by this authors own doctrine , they were not true churches while the Greek churches revolted from the communion of the Roman which he mentions , p. 47. and it is manifest by Christs threatning , that he would remove the candlestick from them except they did repent , Revel. 2. 5. Or else it rests on this , that every church in communion with the See of Rome is , and ever shall be a true church : but there is no priviledge in Scripture to the church of Rome more than to other churches , much less to every church that is in communion with the See of Rome ; yea it is said to the Roman church as well as other churches , Rom. 11. 20 , 21 , 22. well , because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith . Be not high minded but fear . For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare not thee . Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God : on them which fell severity ; but towards thee goodness , if thou continue in his goodness , otherwise thou ( even the Roman church to whom he then wrote ) also shalt be cut off . However if it be proved that the church catholick invisible of the elect and true believers cannot fail , and that a church visible indefinite shall not fail , but be in some place or other more or less conspicuous , in greater or smaller numbers ; yet it is not proved that the church militant definite of this or that place shall not fail , nor is there a word in Scripture to prove this the priviledge of the Roman church , or those that are in communion with the See of Rome that they cannot fail nor erre in faith : nor do the words of Fathers rightly understood prove it . But Scripture and experience do plainly refute it . What hath been alleged is examined , the rest will be in its place . I proceed to that which remains in this Article .

Object . The Catholick succession was one succession for the first five centuries .

Answ. You may as well tell me of a white blackmore : a Catholick is not a Protestant , nor a Catholick succession a Protestant succession . Who ever heard of a Protestant Pope ? The Catholick church was always governed by a Pope in the first five centuries , as now it is , and hath defined our tenets and condemned yours , as you have seen . It is the very essence of a Protestant ( as a Protestant ) to protest against the Catholick church , as Lutherans and you have done .

To this I reply , To an objection of such moment as this is the answer , is but meer trifling . For he knows , that we mean by catholick succession , not that which he calls catholick succession , to wit of Popes of Rome , but that the teachers , who are reputed catholick , whether of the Greek or Latin churches , who have succeeded one after another in the five first centuries of years from Christs incarnation according to the account now used , taught not the doctrine now professed in the Bull of Pope Pius the fourth , or in the Tridentin canons , but that in all or most of the points in difference between Protestants and Papists they taught the doctrine , which Protestants now hold , which hath been proved by Jewel and many other Protestant writers . And in this sense it is no more absurdity to call a Protestant a catholick , then to call a spade a sapde , a straw a straw . Protestants are truely Catholicks , Papists are but falsly called Catholicks affecting the name , as some that were of the Synagogue of Satan said they were Jews , and were not , but did lye , Revel. 3. 9. and impudently claiming that which they have no right to , that they may be it as a stalking horse catch ignorant people , who are taken with shews and confident talk , being unable to sift out truth and discern it from pretences . A Catholick succession is in true construction a Protestant succession , and the Popes of Rome it self Protestant Popes , teaching in such writings as remain not the now Papal doctrine , but in the main the Protestant , though by some of them excessively magnifying their See , and promoting rites of mens invention way was made for the after corruptions of the Papacy . The term Pope was in former times given to other Bishops , Presbyters , yea and Deacons too besides the Bishop of Rome , though now the title is appropriated to him , who deserves not the name of Papa or Father , as it was heretofore used as an honourable title of the reverend and godly teachers and officers in the church of God , nor any other way I know , except it be in the sense in which an Italian said of Innocent the eighth , Octo nocens pueros genuit totidemque puellas : Hunc merito poteris dicere Roma patrem : Many of whose predecessors and successors have made it their work to advance their bastards , rather then beget children to God by preaching the Gospel . It is a notorious falshood , that the catholick church was alwayes governed by a Pope in the first five centuries , if he mean by Pope a Bishop of Rome . It s manifest by many instances , that the African and Asian churches were not governed by him in the second , third , fourth and fifth centuries , sith they did oppose him , as appears by the contentions between Victor and Polycrates and others . That which we have seen in H. T. or Bellarmin or any other writer of the Popish party , hath not yet made it so much as probable , that the Catholick church hath now defined the now Roman tenets , or condemned the Protestants , nor is it of the essence of a Protestant , as such , to Protest against the Catholick church , but against the errors and abominations of the now Roman party . Nor hath H. T. or any other proved , that the Protestant teachers protest against manifest revealed verities , and the very fundamentals of the Christian faith , however they do protest against the fundamentals of the new Popish faith , the Popes monarchy , transubstantiation , &c.

H. T. adds , St. Augustin , St. Hierom and many others are divided in their opinions , whether Linus or Clement immediately succeeded Peter . Answ . Be it so , yet they all agreed in this , that the succession was morally continued , to which it is a thing indifferent whether Clement immediately succeeded him , as he well might being his scholar , or first Linus , then Cletus , and then Clement , which is now the more common opinion of the church .

I reply , what he means by [ morally continued ] I understand not , nor know I any sense of that speech , which serves to take away the force of the objection , which is , that if it be uncertain who succeeded Peter immediately , then the tradition of the church unwritten , or not written in the Bible is uncertain , and that too in a main point which is fundamental with the Romanists , the succession of their chief Pastors , upon which the truth of their church and the rule of their faith depends , and consequently the rule of the Romanists whereby to know what we are to believe hath a meer sandy foundation , not being sufficient to build a divine and firm faith upon ; and the Protestants are no more to be blamed than the Romanists , if they do not so exactly set down and prove their succession of Bishops as the Papists require , sith the Papists themselves are deficient in their own catalogue , and if the Protestants can prove their faith out of Scripture , though they prove not such a succession as is demanded , they may as well be concluded a true church as the Roman , which answers the two first Articles of H. T. his Manual of controversies . Besides the most ancient tradition they have , to wit Irenaeus l. 3. adver. haeres . c. 3. saith that Peter and Paul founded the church in Rome , and then delivered the Episcopacy of the church to be administred to Linus , which was done in their life time , and so Linus did not succeed Peter as Bishop of Rome , for he was Bishop while Peter lived , and so if Peter died Bishop of Rome there were more Bishops together , and Irenaeus makes them successors of Paul as well as Peter ; nor were they successors to them as having the same office with them . For they could not be Bishops of particular places fixed there as now the term is used , it stood not with their commission , which enjoyned them to go into all the world , and to preach the Gospel to every creature , nor were they successors to them in their Apostleship , for that particular office ceased with the first Apostles . So that the truth is , this conceit of succession is but a vain conceit , though it be much magnified by H. T. and other Romanists for want of solid proof of their several doctrins out of Scripture or primitive antiquity . I go on to the next Article .

ARTIC. III. Popish Church visibility not necessary .

Such visibility of Succession , as the Romanists require , is not proved to be necessary to the being of a true Church .

SECT. 1.

Exteriour Consecration and Ordination of Ministers is not necessary to the being of a visible Church : what H. T. requires of Ministers preaching and administring Sacraments is most defective in the Roman Church .

Our Tenet , saith H. T. is , that the Catholick and Apostolick Church of God hath had not onely a continued , but also a visible Succession from Christ to this time , &c. which we prove thus , 1. A Society of men which hath always in it exteriour Consecration and Ordination of Ministers , preaching , baptizing , and administring Sacraments must of necessity be always visible . But the Church of Christ is a society of men which hath always in it exteriour Consecration and Ordination of Ministere . Therefore the Church of Christ must of necessity be always visible . The Major is proved by evident reason , because those are all outward and sensible actions , which are inconsistent with an invisible society of actors . The Minor is proved by Scripture , Go ye , teaching all Nations , baptizing them , &c. And , Behold , I am with you all days , &c. St. Matth. 28. v. 20. He gave some Apostles , some Prophets , some Evangelists , and other some Pastors and Doctors , to the consummation of the Saints , Ephes. 4. 11 , 12.

Answ. THe Tenet and the Conclusion of the Argument differ , the Tenet asserting what hath been , the Conclusion what of necessity must be ; the Tenet having for its Subject the holy Catholick and Apostolick Church of God , the Conclusion the Church of Christ indefinite , and both Tenet and Conclusion is granted , but not in this Author's and other Romanists sense . It is granted , there hath been a Succession , but not a continued number of Bishops , Priests , and Laicks , succeeding one another in the profession of the same Faith , ( meaning the now Roman ) from Christ and his Apostles to this time , which H. T. in the former Article makes the Definition of Succession . And visibility of each particular Church is granted , but not of the Catholick as Catholick , which as such is to be believed , not seen . And this visibility it is granted to be of some at some times , not in the same splendor or conspicuity at all times , nor to all persons . But Protestants deny it visible always to all in so glorious and conspicuous an estate , as Bellarmine asserts , when he saith in his Book de Eccles. Milit. cap. 2. That the Church is an Assembly of men so visible and palpable as is the Assembly of the People of Rome , or the Kingdom of France , or the Common-wealth of the Venetians : so that we might grant his Tenet and Conclusion , were it not that fraudulently there is more intended than is expressed , which is needfull to be discovered . For answer to it as it is the Major is granted , if it be understood of visibility simply , but if meant of such a conspicuous visibility as the Romanists assert , it is to be denied . In the Minor it is to be observed , 1. That a distinction is made between exterior Consecration and Ordination , which I judge to be done , that thereby may be implied the distinction of Bishops ( who are consecrated , not ordained ) from Presbyters , ( whom they ordain , not consecrate ) to have been always in the Church of Christ , which is not right . 2. That it is asserted that the Church of Christ is a society of men , which hath always in it exteriour Consecration and Ordination of Ministers , which is , because he holds a true Church hath always such Ministers . But as I said before , that is not true , no not in the Church of Rome in the vacancy of the See , which hath been sometimes long , and therefore it is not necessary to the being of a true Church , that always the exterior Consecration and Ordination be continued , and if it may be intermitted , one , two , or ten years , and yet the Church a true Church , it may be an hundred ; and therefore the Minor is not to be granted , if meant of exterior Consecration and Ordination of Bishops distinct from Presbyters , and such a perpetuity as is without the least intermission , nor do any of the Texts prove it . For the Precept Matth. 28. 19 , 20. proves onely it ought to be , not that it shall be ; and the Promise , if it do prove that a Succession shall be , yet it doth not prove such a Succession as shall have exterior Consecration and Ordination , but such assistance in Preaching and Baptizing as shall uphold and prosper them in that Work : nor is this assured to any one place , but indefinitely to any persons in any place where this Work shall be continued . And the other place Ephes 4. 11 , 12. proves not a certainty of the event , which is asserted in the Minor , but if the Gift be meant of Institution of what ou●ht to be , it notes onely a certainty of Duty , if of Donation of Abilities it notes not an exterior Consecration and Ordination , but an act to be immediately from Christ himself , or by his Spirit , and so doth not prove a futurity of such Succession by outward Consecration and Ordination as H. T. brings it for .

Nevertheless this Author doth disadvantage his own party by this arg●ing . For , 1. by this arguing he plainly makes the marks of the Church by which it is visible , Preaching , Baptizing , and administring Sacraments , which doth by good consequence infer that the Protestants do rightly make the Preaching of the Word , and the administring of the Sacraments the notes of the visible Church ; which will make well for the Protestants , by whom these are observed ; but ill for the Ministers of the Roman Church , chiefly the Bishops of Rome , who neither preach , nor baptize , nor administer Sacraments , but do other acts of other kindes . Nor , to speak truth , is almost any of their Preaching the Preaching of the Gospel , but the Rites of the Roman Church , extolling the Virgin Mary , and other Saints excellency , little of the Gospel , or if any part of it , it is likely the History of the Gospel in an historical fashion , little of the mystery ; but in stead thereof such Doctrines of humane satisfactions , for sin , merit , of good works , are preached , as do overthrow the Gospel . And for Baptizing , though Bellarmine tells us , lib. 2. de bonis oper. in partic . cap. 17. that at Rome the old Custome is not abolished of Baptizing the Catechumeni at Easter , but among the Papists chiefly in the City of Rome there is no year in which many catechized persons are not baptized at Easter : yet the truth is , there is no right Baptism almost throughout the Churches under the Papacy , there being nothing but watering of Infants with some frivolous Ceremonies , no immersion or plunging into the Water after Profession of Faith , as was in the primitive times , and is the onely Baptism Christ appointed , Infant-sprinkling , perfusion , or dipping , being meer Innovations begun after the Apostles ages , and being onely by unwritten tradition ( as their own learned men confess ) conveyed to the Church , not instituted by Christ himself . And for administring the Lords Supper , he that reades their Missals or Sees , their Mass , may easily discern , there is not that done by them which Christ appointed , but such a change there is in it from Christs institution , as that it cannot be termed ▪ a Sacrament of Christ , but a meer ridiculous or abominable device of men , more like a Play than a religious service . 2. When they say that the Church hath always exterior Consecration and Ordination of Ministers , they necessarily put themselves upon it , to prove that it hath been so in the Roman Church , which they can never prove to have been always in the Roman Bishops , much less in their Priests , the Records of their Consecrations and Ordinations being in many respects either none or very doubtfull , at best but humane testimony which is fallible , and if these were certain , yet their own Canons make many things necessary to their Sacraments , specially that sottish conceit of the Trent Council , that the Minister of Sacraments must intend to do what the Church doth , without which there is a nullity in what is done ; and yet it is impossible to be proved ; and so many things according to their Canons nullifie their Ordinations , as Simony , and other irregularities , of which nevertheless their own Writers accuse a great number of their Bishops and Priests , and sometimes one Pope hath made void the Acts of another , and in despite hath cut off his fingers which did ordain Priests , as Platina relates in the life of Stephan the sixth concerning the usage of Pope Formosus ; besides this the Ordination of their Priests is to sacrifice for quick and dead , which is no part of the Ministerial Office which Christ required , Matth. 28. 19 , 20. which being considered , if this be the note whereby the true Church must be proved , no Church in the World hath less proof for its truth than the Roman ; but the Exceptions will be so many against their exterior Ordination and Consecration , as will by their own Canons and arguings prove the Roman Church to be no true visible Church at all ; and so this Argument will be retorted on H. T. Let us go on to his second Argument , onely taking notice that he useth the term [ Ministers ] which other Papists do deride in the Protestants .

SECT. II.

Isai 2. 2. Matth. 5 , 14. Psal. 18. ( with us 19. ) 4. prove not such a Church-visibility as H. T. asserts , nor the words of Ireneus , Origen , Cyprian , Chrysostom , Augustin .

A Light , saith H. T. always shining to the World , and a City so seated on a Hill that it cannot be hid , must needs be always visible . But the Church of Christ is a Light always shining to the World , and a City so seated on a Hill , that it cannot be hid , therefore the Church must needs be always visible . The Major is manifest by the very terms . The Minor is proved by Scripture ; The Mountain of the House of our Lord shall be prepared on the top of Mountains , Isai 2. 2. You are the Light of the World , a City seated on a Hill cannot be hid , St Matth. 5. 14. He hath put his Tabernacle ( his Church ) in the Sun , Psal. 18. 4.

Answ. THough the Conclusion might be granted in some sense , yet in the sense meant by the Romanists it is denied , and in the Argument the Minor is to be denied , and to the proof of it , it is denied that the Texts produced prove it . Not the first . For though the Prophecies , Is. 2. 2 , 3. be meant of Christ and the times of the Messias , yet , whether by the Mountain be meant Mount Sion properly , or the Church , or Christ , or the Apostles ; it is certain , that it is meant of that time , wherein the Gospel was at first preached , to which sense Hierome expounds it , and the exaltation of the mountain of the Lords house is in respect of the first promulging of the Gospel , ( in respect of which , neither at first , nor now is Rome exalted above the Hills ) and therefore it is not meant of every particular Church visible , nor of such conspicuity in government and outward appearance as the Romanists maintain . The second Text Matth. 5. 14. is particularly meant of the Apostles , and such Preachers of the Gospel as continued that Work with them , or after them , and doth not foretell what shall be , but declares what they were in existence or duty rather , and their conspiracy is in respect of the Preaching of the Gospel . But this is not spoken of every particular , or the whole Church militant at all times , as if it were so visible , as that every Christian might know where to address themselves to them , and have resolution from them in their doubts . The other Text is less to the purpose , speaking of a Tabernacle for the Sun , not a Tabernacle in the Sun , the Suns Tabernacle , not Gods , put in the Heavens , ( not on earth ) as Hierom reades according to the Hebrew , although the Septuagint and Vulgar reade , as H. T. and Augustin in his allegorical way expound it of the Church . But it is frivolous upon Augustin's conceit in his Enarration on the Psalms to infer a Tenet from a place that hath quite another grammatical sense , which is onely argumentative .

As for the sayings of Fathers , the words of Irenaeus lib. 4. advers. Hoeres . cap. 45. are not , that every true Church of Christ hath such a continued Succession , and so visible , as that every Christian may discern where to repair to it , but onely in opposition to heretical Teachers tells us , God hath set other Teachers in the Church , than those he there opposeth .

Origen's words Hom. 3. on Matthew , shew what was in his time , not what must of necessity be , and are meant of brightness of doctrine or truth , not of outward glory in a conspicuous rule and state like some flourishing Empire .

Cyprian's words de unit . Eccles . are less to the purpose , being not concerning the visibility , but the unity of the Church , but in neither for the Romanists purpose . The words are thus , Cut off the River from the Fountain , and being cut off it will be dry ; so also the Church cloathed with the light of the Lord spreads its beams through the whole World , yet it is one light , which is every where diffused , and yet the unity of the body not separated .

Chrysostom's words Hom. 3. on Isai 6. are , that the Church is more rooted than the Heaven , and then adds , let the Greeks learn the power of truth , how it is easier that the Sun should be extinguished , than that the Church should 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that is not as H. T. renders it be obscured , but vanish away , as the words following shew , which are , Who had these things ? He that preacheth hath founded , the Heaven and the Earth shall pass away , but my words shall not pass away . Whence it is manifest , that he there speaks not of the Churches visibility , but permanency as the Sun .

Augustin lib , 3. cont. Parmen. cap. 5. tom. 7. against the Donatists saith thus , Who therefore would not sit in the assembly of van●●y , let him not become vain in the type of pride , seeking the Conventicls separate from the unity of the just of the whole world , which he cannot finde . But the just are through the whole City , which cannot be hid , because it is seated on a Mountain , that Mountain I say of Daniel , in whom that stone cut out without hands grew and filled the whole earth . And after , There is no security of unity but in the Church , declared by the promises of God , which being seated , as was said , on a Mountain , cannot be hid : and therefore it is necessary that it be known to all parts of the earth . By which it is manifest , that in opposition to the Donatists , appropriating the Church to their party , he asserts it to be manifest , not by its outward splendour , but its extension to all parts . The words l. 2. cont. Petilian . c. 104 are thus : Ye are not in the Mountains of Sion , because ye are not in the City seated on the Mountain , which hath this certain sign that it cannot be hid , therefore it is known to all Nations , but the part of Donatus is unknown to many Nations ; therefore it is not that Church . It is evident he spake of the Church at that time , which was known or manifestly visible to all Nations , not from a potent Monarchy in one City , but its diffusion through all parts of the world .

SECT. III.

H. T. hath not solved the Protestants Objections against the visibility of the Church .

H. T. adds , Objections solved . Object . The Church is believed , therefore not seen . Answ. She is believed in the sense of her Doctrines , and to be guided to all truths by the Holy Ghost , but seen in her Pastours , Government , and Preaching ; wherefore I deny the Consequence .

I Reply , Though Protestants deny not the Church militant to be visible in the outward Government and Preaching of the Pastors , yet they deny that it is always so conspicuous as that it may be known to every Christian , as an Assembly of the People of Rome , or Common-wealth of Venice , to which all may resort for direction . Nor by this Argument do they prove that the Church militant is not visible , but that the Church in the Creeds Apostolical and Nicene , which is one Catholick and Apostolick , as such , is not visible , but invisible , being the Object of Faith , not of Sight : nevertheless the Answer takes not away the force of the Objection , if it had been alleged against the visibility of the Church militant . For the Church is believed , not as teaching , but as being , it is the existence of the Church , not the Doctrine of it that is believed , as even the Trent Catechism expounds it : now that being Catholick , that is according to the Catechism , consisting of all believers from Adam till now in all Nations , cannot be the object of sense , but of faith ; and therefore the Catholick Church in the Creeds is the invisible of true Believers , not the meer visible now militant .

H. T. adds , Object . The Woman ( the Church ) fled into the Wilderness , Apoc. 12 ▪ 6. Answ. But is followed and persecuted by the Dragon , v. 17. therefore visible .

I reply , this Answer is ridiculous . For whereas Protestants hence prove , that at some times the Church is hid from men , this Authour saith , It was not hid from the Dragon , that is , the Devil , which is not in question . So that it appears he had nothing to answer this Inference , from the Womans flying into the Wilderness , and being hid , that sometimes the Church is so hidden as it were in a Wilderness , that though it be , yet it is not so visible or conspicuous as that men can discern it so as to repair to it , howbeit the Devil knows where they lurk .

Yet once more H. T. Object . The Church of the Predestinate is invisible . Answ. There is no such thing as a Church of the Predestinate . Christ's Church is the congregation of all true believers , as well Reprobate as predestinate . There is in his Floor both Wheat and Chaff , St. Matth. c. 3. and in his Field both Corn and Tares , which shall grow together till the Harvest ( the Day of Judgement ) St. Matth. c. 13. The Predestinate are as visible as the Reprobate ▪ It is true indeed , their Predestination is invisible , and so is also these mens Reprobation .

I reply , To salve their main Tenet of the Popes being Head of the Church of Christ , who is often so wicked as that , if the Church of Christ be determined to be of elect persons onely , many Popes cannot be termed Members , much less Heads of the Church , is this audacious Assertion invented , that there is no such thing as a Church of the Predestinate , contrary to express Scripture , which mentions the Church of the first-born written in Heaven , Heb. 12. 23. and the Church elected together with Peter , or those he wrote to , 1 Pet. 5. 13. and saith such things of the Church in many places , to wit , Ephes. 5. 23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28 , 29 , 30 , 31 , 32. Ephes. 1. 22 , 23 , &c. as cannot agree to Reprobates , who cannot be said to be Christ 's body , his fulness , to be loved , sanctified , whom he nourisheth , intends to present without spot , as he saith there of Christ's Church . He that desires more proof may reade Dr. John Rainold his fourth Conclusion , where he proves it fully , both from Scripture and Fathers , that the holy Catholick Church which we believe is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen , which hath not been yet answered that I know . Nor do I see how the fourth Lateran Council could mean otherwise , which determined , as H. T. saith here , art. 1. pag. 30. that the universal Church of the faithfull is one out of which no man can be saved , which can be true onely of the Church of the Predestinate . As for what H. T. saith here , The Church of Christ is the congregation of all true believers as well Reprobate as Predestinate , it supposeth true believers may be reprobate : but this is false , meaning it of the truth of being opposite to feigned , counterfeit , or in shew onely . For our Lord Christ hath said , John 5. 24. & John 3. 15 , 16 , 18 , 36. that such as believe on him shall not perish , come not to condemnation , are passed from death to life , have everlasting life . Nor do the Texts Matth. 3. 12. where the Floor is not Christ's Church , but the Jewish people , or Matth. 13. 30. where the Field is expresly interpreted vers 38. to be the World , not the Church , speak to the contrary . It is true , The Predestinate are as visible as the Reprobate , but they are not meerly visible believers as some Reprobates are , who profess faith , which they have not . But the true Church of Christ against which the Gates of Hell shall not prevail , Matth. 16. 18. contains onely such believers as have that faith which is true , and that Election of God , which with their faith are invisible , and so are rightly denominated the invisible Church from that which is more excellent , and the Reprobate have not .

ARTIC. IV. One Catholick Church not the Roman The Church of Rome is not that one Catholick Church , which in the Apostolick and Nicene Creeds is made the Object of Christian Faith .

SECT. I.

Unity in non-fundamentals of Faith and Discipline is not essentially presupposed to the Universality of the Church Militant .

H. T. to his fourth Article gives this Title , The true Church demonstrated by her Unity and Universality ; and then saith , Unity being essentially presupposed to Universality , I thought it not improper to joyn these two in one Article .

Answ. IF this Authour had meant to deal plainly , he should have told us what Unity is essentially presupposed to Universality , and how the true Church is demonstrated by her Unity and Universality . Unity in general is so far from being essentially presupposed to Universality in general , that the contrary seems more true , that one is not universal , Unity not consistent with Universality , it being in effect as if i● were said , One is many or all ; yet I deny not some unity in special may be essentially presupposed to some universality in special . There are many sorts of unity which Logicians and Writers of Metaphysicks reckon up , in respect of which it is certain , that the true Church of Christ cannot be said to be one , as it cannot be said to be one with generical or specifical unity ; for that is not essentially presupposed to universality of time and place , but is abstracted from it . But he seems to mean unity in Doctrine , Discipline , and Faith , by the words following . Universality likewise is manifold , as Logicians and Writers of Metaphysicks shew , as there is an universality of predication , of essence , and existence . Now this Authour seems to mean universality of existence for time and place , and his meaning is this , that unity of Doctrine , Discipline , and Faith , is essentially presupposed to universality of existence for time and place : that is , that Church which hath not the same Doctrine , Faith , and Discipline , which all Churches of Christ in all times and places have had , is not the true Church of Christ , and that which hath is the true Church of Christ . Now these Propositions I grant , if meant of Doctrine , and Faith in the Fundamentals , but not if meant of meer outward Church-discipline , or Doctrine , and Faith in points not fundamental , having learned from the Apostle , 1 Cor. 3. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. that some may build Hay and Stubble , that is , some errors upon the foundation Christ , who yet may be saved : which they could not be , if they were not of the true Church of Christ , or , that is no true Church of Christ , which consists of such . In like manner , the Apostle Rom. 14. 2. expresly tells us in the Church of Rome , one did believe he might eat all things , and another did eat herbs , one esteemed one day above another , others esteemed every day alike , and yet God received them both , and they were Gods servants , v. 3 , 4 , 5. And that in Discipline there may be disagreement , yea , Schism , and disorder , is apparent from the Church of Corinth , 1 Cor. 1. 11 , 12. & 51. & 6. 7. & 11. 17 , &c. & 14. 26. & 15. 12. who are termed the Church of God , 1 Cor. 1. 2. And therefore without distinction and due limitation ( which this Authour omits ) his Position is not true . But let 's view what he writes .

SECT. II.

The antiquity of H. T. his saying of the Roman Church its unity and universality is shewed .

Now , saith H. T. that the church of Rome is both perfectly one , and also universal for time and place is thus demonstrated .

Answ. HEre again this Authour deals sophistically , putting the Roman church for the true church , as if they were the same , and not explaining what he means by the Roman church , which may either● signifie the church that is in Rome , which is the expression of the Apostle , Rom. 1. 7. or the Church where ever it be , which holds the Roman faith . And this Roman faith may be either the faith in all points which now at this day the Bishop , and Priests , and People , dwelling at Rome hold , or which the Christians at Rome held in the days of Paul , and some Ages after . If it be meant in this this last sense , the true Church is no more the Roman church than Corinthian , nor so much as the Hierosolymitan , whence all churches received the faith : if in the former sense , the term is not according to the ancient use either in Scripture or ancient Ecclesiastick Writers , though I conceive it so meant by this Authour . To be perfectly one is also ambiguous : it may be meant either that they have not the least disagreement in Doctrine , Discipline , and Faith , or they hold the same Faith and Doctrine in the main , or points fundamental . To be universal for time and place , may be either meant thus , that the persons now termed the Roman church are universal for time and place . But this is contrary to sense , it being known by it , that they were born within a certain definite time , at certain definite places , not in all times , and every place existent : or that the faith which now the Romanists hold , is that which in all times and places the true church of God hath held . And this we deny if it be meant of the Articles in Pope Pius the fourth his Creed , and are willing to put all our controversies to this issue . But H. T. looks quite awry from this , as will appear by viewing his dispute , which is thus .

SECT. III.

Unity under one visible bead without division in lesser points and disciplin , is not proved from 1 Cor. 10. 17. Ephes. 1. 22 , 23. John 10. 16. 1 Cor. 1. 10. Act. 4. 32. John 17. 11. and the Nicene Creed .

H. T. saith The argument for unity . The church of Christ is one body , one fold or flock ( of which he himself is the supreme invisible head , and the Pope his deputy on earth the visible or ministerial ) But the Roman Catholick church and no other is this one body , one sold or flock ; therefore the Roman Catholick church and no other is the church of Christ . The Major is proved , We are one bread and one body as many as participate of one bread . 1 Cor. 10. 18. He hath made him ( Christ ) head over all the Church which is his body . Ephes. 1. 22 , 23. There shall be made one fold and one Pastor . John 10. 16. I beseech you , that you all speak one thing , and that there be no Schisms among you , but that ye be perfect in one sense and one judgement . 1 Cor. 1. 10 The multitude of believers had one heart , one soul . Act. 4. 32. Christ prayed that his Disciples might be one . St. John 17. 11. I believe one holy Catholick and Apostolick church . The Nicene Creed .

Ans. 1. THe thing pretended to be demonstrated by her unity , was the true church , after he changeth it into this , that the church of Rome is both perfectly one , and also universal for time and place is thus demonstrated , here the conclusion is the Roman Catholick church and no other is the church of Christ . By comparing of which it is apparent , that this Author supposeth the true church , the church of Rome , and the Roman Catholick church to be synonymous or diverse names of the same thing , which is supposed but not proved , nor yeilded , nor can be true , as shall be shewed after . 2. This Author pretends to demonstrate by this argument , the church of Rome to be perfectly one , which should have been his conclusion , whereas not heeding his words he makes it the Minor . 3. He puts in by a parenthesis in the Major many words which are not in the Minor , though they belong to the middle term , which should be the same in both premises : nor is any proof brought for them here ; to wit , that the Pope is Christs deputy on earth , the visible or ministerial head of that church , which is one body , one fold or flock . 4. That the Major might be for his purpose it should have been thus ; that church which is one body , one fold or flock ( of which he himself is the supreme invisible head , and the Pope his deputy on earth the visible or ministerial ) and no other is the church of Christ , but such is the church of Rome , ergo . But as it is now framed it is in the second figure of all affirmatives , which is against Logick rules , and makes the syllogism naught , as the very freshmen know . But to it as it is now framed I answer . If the words [ and the Pope his deputy on earth the visible or ministerial ] be left out , the Major is granted in this sense , that the universal church of Christ are one body by unity of one spirit and faith of the fundamentals , and one flock by unity of one head , and supreme Pastor . But in H. T. his sense it is most false , that it is one by the same faith in every point without any difference in lesser points , or without any divisions in rites and disciplin , and in subjection to one universal Bishop on earth , as Christs deputy and the churches visible head . Nor do any of the texts prove it in this sense . For the first doth not express what all Christians were in respect of their state ; but profession , and the unity is not derived from either subjection to one universal Bishop on earth , or agreement in all points , but from participating of one bread in the Lords Supper . For it is not to be read as this Author after the vulgar translation reads it [ as many as participate of one bread ] but [ for we all partake of one bread ] it being in Greek 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 and in some copies of the vulgar [ nam omnes ] as in the Plantin edition by the Lovain Divines 1574. I finde it in the margin : so that the meaning is this , we do shew our selves one body , one bread , forasmuch as we all partake of one bread in the Lords Supper .

The next text , Ephes. 1. 22 , 23. proves only that the church is one body by unity of one head , to wit Christ , as H. T. rightly interprets it . And the third text , John 10. 16. also makes the whole church one flock ( as it should be read ) not one fold , in respect of one Pastor , which the very words , ver. 11. 14 , 15 , 16. do shew plainly to be Christ himself , who gave his life for them , and no other ; and therefore none of these texts derive the unity of the church from subjection to the Bishop of Rome as visible head or chief Pastor . The next text , 1 Cor. 1. 10. doth only prove that the church ought to be of one mind and one judgement without Schisms , not that they are , or must be , if they be the true church , but the text proves the contrary , that they may be a true church though there be Schisms , and difference of judgement among them . The fifth , Acts 4. 32. only proves that the church at Jerusalem once were so ( at which time they had also all things common , which doubtless H. T. will not say must or doth agree to the whole church at all times ) but not that the whole church shall be so still . The last , John 17. 11. is a prayer of Christ that it may be so , and so will be accomplished , but by the words , ver. 21 , 22 , 23. it seems most likely not to be till they be consummate in glory ; or if afore , yet certainly the unity cannot be meant of unity in every thing ; for so Peter and Paul did not agree , as Gal. 2. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. it appears , but of such unity in communion with God , and aiming at his glory , as is only in the elect by vertue of Christs indwelling by his Spirit : which is nothing to the unity which H. T. here requires as peculiar to the Roman church . The passage of the Nicene creed proves only an unity of the church , but not an unity by agreement in all points and subjection to one Catholick Bishop on earth . So that H. T. after his fashion cites many texts , but not one for his purpose .

SECT. IV.

It is notoriously false that the Romanists are perfectly one , or have better unity , or means of unity than Protestants , and H. T. his argument for the truth of the Roman church from its unity proves the contrary .

H. T. adds . The minor is made evident ( even to the weakest understanding ) by the present manifold Schisms and divisions , which are now among Protestants and all other Sectaries , as well in doctrine as government , whereas Catholicks are perfectly one both in disciplin and doctrine , all the world over , even to the least Article or point of faith , being all united to one supreme invisible head , Christ Jesus , and all subordinate to one visible and ministerial head , the Pope his Vicar on earth ; we all resolve our selves in points of faith into one safe and most unchangeable principle , I believe the holy Catholick church , we look on her as the immediate and authorized proponent of all revealed verities , and the infallible Judge of controversies ; God himself being the prime Author , and his authority the formal motive and object of our faith .

Answ. 1. The Protestants are not Sectaries nor divided from the Catholick church , but from the now Roman party , who are really a faction divided from the Catholick church holding a new faith never established till the Tridentin council , though with an impudent face H. T. avouch a most palbable falshood of the Romanists universality , and arrogates to the Roman the title of Catholick church . Nor are the now divisions of Protestants in doctrine or government such as cut them off from the unity of the Catholick church , they own Christ their head , and faith in him , which is sufficient to save them , and even by this Authors next argument , enough to make them members of the Catholick church . 2. The Schisms and divisions of the Papists have been and are as great as the divisions of the Protestants . In former ages there were many Schisms even in the church of Rome between the several Popes at one time , and the factions among the people about Popes and Emperours and other quarrels . Onuphrius reckons up thirty . Bellarmin himself twenty six Schisms one after another , sometimes one Pope condemning what another had done , and excommunicating and persecuting Emperours , Antipapes , and all that have adhered to them . Besides the contentions about the Virgin Maries immaculate conception , about the superiority of a council above the Pope , about Priests marriages , election of Popes , investiture of Bishops have been so great , and frequent , and of long continuance , as their own histories shew , that they far exceed the Protestants divisions . The divisions in this last age , and some at this day , to wit , in and since the council of Trent between Catharinus , Soto , Vega , Andradius about certainty of salvation ; Pighius and others about inherent righteousness , the Spanish and other Bishops and the Papalins about the divine right of Bishops and their residence , not deriving their Episcopacy from the Pope ; the French churches not acknowledging the Bishop of Rome above a council , nor yet receiving the Trent council : the two Popes Sixtus the fifth and Clement the eighth , about the vulgar translation both enjoyning each of their editions and no other , as the right copy to be received under penalty of a curse , though one in many places contradict the other ( as Dr. James in his Bellum Papale shews , from which no Papists have or can vindicate the two Popes ) the divisions in England and Ireland between the secular Priests and the Jesuits about Episcopal jurisdiction and visitations , between Papists in Italy , at Venice , and in England about the Popes power in temporal things over Princes , in France and England about the lawfulness of killing Kings excommunicated by the Pope , in England and France about Jesuitical equivocation , at this day between Dominicans and Jesuits , Jansenists and Mol●nists about Gods predeterminations , efficacious and sufficient grace , and mans freewill have been and are at this day as great or greater in respect of the things in which they differ , the continuance of them , the parties differing and their bitterness one to another , then the Protestants divisions , and therefore the brag of H. T. concerning the Popish unity , that Catholicks are perfectly one both in discipline and doctrine all the world over , even to the least article or point of faith , is a falshood apparent to all well read scholars , though the simple English Papists , from whom the truth of these things is concealed , are made to believe by their Priests disguises and pretences as if it were so . Nor doth that which H. T. here saith , salve the matter , and if it did , the Protestants have as good a plea for themselves , notwithstanding their divisions , in respect of means for unity . For , 1. The Papists all the world over are not so subordinate to the Pope as to acknowledge his superiority to a council , but that they have and think they may appeal from the Pope to a general council , which may judge the Pope an heretick and depose him , yea and take away the Pope altogether if they see it necessary , nor do the Jansenists acquiesce in the late Pope Innocents determination at this day , nor do the Sorbonists in France acknowledge the Popes power in temporals , or the Venetians the Popes power to interdict their state and meddle with their government in exempting Ecclesiasticks from their jurisdiction . 2. That which he saith of the Catholick church as the immediate and authorized proponent of all revealed verities , and the infallible Judge of controversies is either nonsense or false , or that which Papists reject in Protestants . If they mean by the Catholick church the Pope , or the Pope with his Cardinals , or a council , it is ridiculous nonsense to call any or all of them the Catholick church , which , according to their own Tridentin Catechism , contains all believers from Adam to this day , or that shall be hereafter , and according to this Author , p. 59. is coexistent with all times , and spread or diffused over all places : or if it be understood according to good sense , it is most false . For the Catholick church properly so called as it is in the Creed , is neither mediate nor immediate proponent of all revealed verities , much less authorized thereto , nor do Papists so look on them . For many of the Papists go no further than the present Pope or council , or their Priests , ( who only are to most the immediate proponents ) but rest in their determinations and adhere to what they determine with an implicite faith and blind obedience , never enquiring what all believers have held or done before them . Nor is it possible they should have resolution from the Catholick church properly understood as in the Creed it is believed : for it is invisible , they never did together express their determination in all points of faith , have varied in many , nor could it be known to others of their own time if they had , much less to the believers of this age . Nor is the Catholick church fit to be the mediate or immediate proponent of all revealed verities , nor fit for such an authority as to be infallible Judge of controversies : for to say the Catholick church is such , is to say the university of believers is such , of whom a great part are women , a great part ignorant persons altogether uncapable of such an office : yea it is contrary to the Apostle Pauls resolution , 1 Cor. 12. 28 , 29. who tells us , that God hath set some in the Church , first Apostles , then Prophets , thirdly Teachers , not the church to be teachers , which is all one with proponents of revealed verities , but teachers in the church : and these are denied to be all the church , when he saith , ver. 29. Are all teachers ? And to make them infallible is contrary to the Apostle . Rom. 3. 4. where he saith , let God he true , and every man a lyar , surely then not an infallible Judge of controversies : yea should this be granted , it would bring all confusion into the churches of God . Nor can the speech have any good sense , that the Catholick church is Judge in controversies , but this which Protestants indeed rightly teach , that every man is to judge for himself , not for others with a judgement of discerning what doctrine or points of faith he hears , and receives , yet requiring upon pain of damnation that they be careful in examining what they embrace , which the Papists do so much inveigh against falsly , as if it were a leaving every man to his private spirit , though they do in this no otherwise than Papists must of necessity , yeild to each man when the determinations of Popes and councils are ambiguous , as they were in the council of Trent , and are often in the Decrees , Breves and other edicts of Popes , as is manifest by the writers on the Canon law , and disputes about the councils and Popes meaning , in which are so many ambiguities that there is scarce a point in which there are not many opposite opinions . If Pappus have overcounted , who reckons out of Bellarmin alone two hundred thirty seven contradictions in Popish writers ; yet he that reads Bellarmins controversies , shall finde very few questions , in which the Schoolmen and other Papists do not gainsay each other . And as for their resolution into the principle , I believe the Catholick church . They are not agreed what the church is from whom they may have resolution , whether the Pope , who is with them the church virtual , or a general council , which is either never , or very rare , which they call the church representative , or the uniform consent of the Fathers , according to which only the profession of faith of Pope Pius the fourth requires all Papists to receive and expound the holy Scriptures : and yet this uniform consent of Fathers is either a nullity , it being scarce found in any point , or it is impossible to be known . H. T. by his words pag. 108. resolves his faith into the next precedent age and so upwards , and here pag. 30. into the church , and this church is , pag. 70. not the whole church ( which yet is all one with the Catholick ) but a council approved by the Pope , into whose authority they finally resolve their faith ; for though they pretend to resolve it into the Scripture , yet as it is expounded by the church , pag. 109 , 113. which is the Pope . So that whatever pretence they make of resolving their faith into the church as the proponent , or God as the Author ; in conclusion they acquiesce in what the Pope dictates by himself or with a council approved by him . As for the Scriptures the Papists are not all agreed which be the Canonical Scriptures , which not : nor can they set down certain rules to know what are the unwritten traditions of the church , which they are to admit and embrace with a like affection of piety as the written Word , as the Trent council decreed , sess. 4. nor can they have any bottom to rest on by their principles ; sometimes one Pope and one council crossing another , some having been condemned in general councils as hereticks : nor can they tell , but by information of others , as Priests or Carriers , of their Bulls or Breves ( which are many of them not only fallible , but also false , as some of their own have complained ) what the Popes determin , and what fraud is used in procuring Popes Bulls or Breves sometimes is many ways testified , as that the Bull of Pius the fifth , wherein Queen Elizabeth was excommunicated and deprived , was gotten in a fraudulent way by Morton and Webb ; Watson quodlib . p. 252 , 260 , 343. there is no certainty from the reports of others what the Pope determins , except a man hear him preach , or pronounce sentence , or see him write and seal , he must rely on the testimony of those that may ▪ and are like enough to deceive . Nor if a man see or hear the Pope decree , can he be certain whether he spake from Peters chair , or determine what is to be believed by the whole church ( out of which case they say he is fallible ) or give his opinion as a private Doctor . So that it is most false , that either Papists agree as H. T. saith , or resolve themselves into one safe and most unchangeable principle , or have any infallible judge of controversies , or have God himself for the prime Author , and his authority the formal object and motive of their faith : but their faith in what they differ from us rests only on mens sayings , for the most part ignorant and wicked ( for such have been most of the Popes for a thousand years ) whom they follow against the plain and confessed words of the Scripture , as in their communion under one kinde , worshipping of Images , and ascribe to them power by their authority to declare new Scriptures and Articles of faith , and make the Scripture only to be believed because of the churches determination , that is the Popes , which in respect of us they make of more authority than the Scripture , and so make the churches , not Gods authority , the formal motive and object of their faith . So that if unity be a note of the church , of all others the Popish church can lay least claim to it , and H. T. his argument may be retorted . The Catholick church is one , the Roman church is not one , therefore the Roman church is not the Catholick church . On the other side the Protestants have better unity and means of unity than Papists . For however they differ in ceremonies and disciplin , yet in points of faith they differ little , as may appear by the harmony of their confessions , which shews agreement in their churches ; however in explication of points private Doctors differ , and they have a more sure principle and safe in owning one Master even Christ , and one certain rule to know the minde of God , to wit the holy Scripture , which the Papists themselves make the object of faith , and the translation into the English tongue makes plain in the chief points to be believed , so that every ordinary man may be certain what it delivers concerning them , and this translation appears to be certain in those things , by comparing it even with the Papists own English translation at Rhemes and Dow●y , which had they left out their corrupt Annotations and permitted it to be read ( as God requires ) by all sorts of persons , the falshood and errors of Popish Priests would soon appear , and be rejected by all that love truth .

SECT. V.

The argument of H. T. from the unity of a natural body , is against him and for Protestants .

But H. T. adds a second argument for the unity of the Catholick church thus . As a natural unity and connexion of the parts among themselves , and to the head is necessary for the being and conservation of a natural body : so the spiritual unity and connexion of the members amongst themselves and to the head , is necessary for the being and conservation of a mystical body . But the church of Christ ( as I have proved ) is a mystical body . Therefore a spiritual unity and connexion of the members amongst themselves and to the head , is necessary for the being and conservation of the church of Christ . The Major is proved by the parity of reason , which is between a natural and mystical body ; for as a natural body must needs dye , if all it's parts by which it should subsist be torn and divided one from another ; so also a mystical body perishes , if all it's members be divided from one another , and from the head ( whence it hath it's spiritual life ) by Schism and heresie .

Answ. THough it be that this argument is only from a similitude , which doth only illustrate not prove , as Logicians say truely , and there be such disparities between a natural body and a mystical , as are sufficient to shew the weakness of this arguing ; as namely , that there are no parts vital in the mystical body besides the head , as the heart , liver and lungs are in the natural , that some parts of the head it self may be cut off , as the ears , and nose , and yet the being , though not the integrity of the body continue , that there are some parts that have not life , as hair , and nayles , ( as some conceive ) that the parts receive not life from the head , but the head and the rest from the soul : yet ●ith the conclusion is true , and the argument with its proof many wayes against the Popish tenets , I grant it , and observe , 1. That the unity which is proved hence , is not of the universal visible church ; the truth of which Papists and this Author go about to demonstrate by it's unity , but of the mystical . For in this mystical body the unity is spiritual by faith , and the members have spiritual life from the head . But in the Catholick church ( of which the disputes are ) according to Bellarm. l. 3. de eccl. milit. c. 10 &c. are many dead members , secret infidels : so that this argument proves not the Catholick visible by it's unity , but the Catholick invisible of true believers . 2. This argument is not to prove the unity of the church by subjection to the Roman Bishop , by which H. T. would demonstrate the unity of the church , but by the unity to that head whence the body hath it's spiritual life and motion , which sure is Christ only and not the Bishop of Rome . 3. This similitude , if by [ head ] were meant the Pope , cannot evince the purpose of this Author . For there have been Schisms in the Roman church of one Pope and his party against another , and yet the unity of the Catholick church in the profession of the ●ame faith continued . Whence it follows , that Schism doth not take away the unity of the church Catholick without heresie , but only disorder , distemper and disquiet it . And therefore though it were granted ( as it is not ) that Protestants were Schismaticks in dividing from the See of Rome , yet they might be united to the Catholick church , and it 's being and conservation continued as long as the unity of faith is continued , and until it be proved that Protestants have departed from the unity of faith once delivered to the Saints ( which he can never do ) in vain doth H. T. go about to prove they are not united , to the Catholick church .

SECT. VI.

The universality , which Matth. 28. 20. Eph. 4. 12 , 13. Luk. 1. 33. John 14. 15 , 16. for time , Psal. 85. 9. Isa. 2. 2. Matth. 28. 20. for place is meant , agrees not to the now Roman church , but better to the Protestants .

BUt H. T. proceeds thus . To be universal for time and place is nothing else but to be coexistent with all time , and to be spread or diffused over all places . But the church of Christ from the time he hath founded it hath been coexistent with all time , and shall be to the worlds end , and hath and shall be spread over all nations , therefore the church of Christ is universal ( or Catholick ) for time and place . The Major is proved because the definition and the thing defined are convertible . The Minor is proved by Scripture for time , St. Matth. 28. 20. Ephes. 4. 12 , 13. St. John 14. 15 , 16. St. Luke 1. 33. For place , Psal. 85. 9. Isa. 2. 2. St Matth. 28. 20.

Answ. 1. The conclusion should have been , the Roman Catholick church and no other is the church of Christ , and the argument thus . That church which is universal for time and place , and no other is the church of Christ . But the Roman Catholick church and no other is universal for time and place , therefore the Roman Catholick church and no other is the church of Christ . But so the Major had not been true of any church existent in one age , nor the Minor true of the present Roman church ▪ but it is contrary to all sense and histories which relate the occurrences of the world , specially in the churches of Christ . 2. As the argument is framed here by H. T. the conclusion is granted being thus understood , that the church of Christ is not confined to Israel only , but extended to all Nations indefinitely and aptitudinally , though not definitely and actually extended to every Nation . For some nations never were actually the church of Christ , nor any church of Christ among them , though there was no restraint by Christs command of preaching to them . But if it be understood of actual coexistence with all times and all places so the Minor is not true : nor the Major , as I conceive the meaning of the term [ Catholick ] in the Article of the Creed , I believe the holy Catholick church : nor is that the definition of the church Catholick , that it is actually coexistent with all time , and to be spread or diffused over all places : but it is termed Catholick , because it is not confined to one Nation , and comprehends all the believers of any Nation , Jew or Gentile : nor do the texts he brings prove any other universality . For Matth. 28. 20. proves not such an universality , as that there shall be no interval of time or particular place , wherein the church shall not be existent . But that Christ would be with them that preach the Gospel all dayes till the end of the world , so as that they had liberty to preach the Gospel in every place , and should finde his assistance while they did preach , not that alwayes in each day there shall be a Church of Christ on earth , much lesse that there shall be a church visible conspicuously to all in every Nation of the earth . The like is the sense of Ephes. 4. 12 , 13. which is , that Christ hath given various gifts till all come to the unity of faith : but this proves not there shall be a continuance of the Church on earth in every age , much lesse so conspicuously visible as that it may be known to all , much more lesse in every place . John 14. 15 , 16. is yet farther from the purpose as containing a peculiar promise to the Apostles : if it be meant of any Church it is the invisible of true believers , not of every or any meer visible Church , wherein many have not the spirit of Christ at all , much lesse abiding with them for ever . The text Luke 1. 33. doth not prove that there shall be in every age or time a Church on earth , but that Christs dominion shall never end . The texts Psal. 85. 9. Isa. 2. 2. are thus meant , that not only the Jews , but also all Nations , that is , all other people by faith shall be admitted to the Church of God by faith as well as Jews ; now this proves not , that there shall be in every place on earth a Church of Christ . But H. T. adds .

I resume the Argument and make it thus . 1. That church which is not universal ( or Catholick ) for time and place is not the church of Christ . 2. But the Protestant church ( and the like may be said of all other Sectaries ) is not universal ( or Catholick ) for time and place . 3. Therefore the Protestant church is not the church of Christ . The Major hath been proved before . The Minor is proved , because before Luther ( who lived little above ●ixscore years ago ) there were no Protestants to be found in the whole world , as hath been proved by us , and confessed by our adversaries . To which you may adde , they have never yet been able to convert any one Nation from infidelity to the faith of Christ , nor ever had communion with all nations , nor indeed any perfect communion among themselves : therefore they cannot be the Catholick Church .

Answ. The Major , That church which is not universal for time and place is not the Church of Christ , If meant of actual or aptitudinal universality is not true . For the church of the Jews afore Cornelius was converted by Peter had been no church of Christ , which was actually , yea and aptitudinally , that is according to Peters and other Christians circumcised their opinions and intentions to be confined to the Jews : and therefore no other church than on earth were or was believed by Peter and those who contended with him , Act. 11. 2. and yet there was a Church of Christ before , as is manifest from Acts 2. 47. But if the Major be understood of universality of faith thus , That church which is not universal for time and place by holding the faith once delivered by the Apostles to the Saints is not the church of Christ , it is granted : but in that sense the Minor is false , the Protestants church is universal for time and place : that is , holds the same faith , which was in all places preached by the Apostles and Apostolical teachers to believers . And in this sense Protestants have been in every age before Luther , and have as really converted Nations from infidelity to the faith of Christ as the Popish church or Teachers , and have had more perfect communion with all Nations and among themselves then Papists , as such , have had , and the Papists have not been so , but have held a new faith , not embraced by a great part of Christians , nor in all places received or known , nor for many hundreds of years taught in the churches , but lately by the Italian faction devised to uphold the Popes tyranny and their own gain . And therefore I retort the argument thus . That church which is not universal ( or Catholick ) for the time and place , is not the church of Christ . But the Popish Roman church is not universal ( or Catholick ) for time and place , but is of late standing , therefore it is not the true church of Christ .

SECT. VII .

The words of Irenaeus , Origen , Lactantius , Cyril of Hierusalem , Augustin are not for the universality of H. T. which he asserts the Catholicism of the Roman church , but against it .

AS for the words of the Fathers , which H. T. allegeth on this Article , they are not for H. T. his purpose to prove , that that is the only true church which is subject to the Bishop of Rome , or that the Roman church is the Catholick church , but they prove the contrary . For the words of Irenaem l. 4. adv. haereses c. 43. are these . Wherefore we ought to obey those Presbyters which are in the church , those which have succession from the Apostles as we have shewed , who with the succession of Bishoprick have received the certain gift of truth according to the pleasure of the Father : but to have the rest suspected either as hereticks and of evil opinion , or as renters and lifted up and pleasing themselves , or again as hypocrites working for gain and vain glories sake , who depart from the original succession and are gathered in every place . For all these fall from the truth . By which it may be perceived . 1. That H. T. omitted sundry words which would have shewed that Presbyters and Bishops were all one . 2. That Irenaeus requires that those to whom he would have obedience given , be such as have not only succession of place , but also the certain gift of truth . Whence it follows . 1. That this speech doth not prove that we are to obey only the Bishop of Rome , or the Roman Church , but any Presbyters . 2. That the succession required is not confined to Rome , but extended to any place . 3. That succession to any of the Apostles as well as Peter is termed original succession . 4. That Presbyters who in any place depart not from the truth are in the church . And therefore this place is so far from proving the necessity of unity with the Roman church , or that it is the Catholick church , that it proves the contrary .

The words of Origen are not for H. T. which require no other doctrine to be kept , but that which is by order of succession from the Apostles , and remains in the church to his time . For neither do they say , the church is only the Roman church , nor that doctrine to be kept which remains in it , or that which is delivered from Peter only , or by order of succession from his chair , or is delivered by unwritten tradition : but that which is delivered any way from the Apostles by succession in any place .

The words of Lactantius are lesse for H. T. which do not at all call the Roman the Catholick church , nor say in it only is Gods true worship and service and hope of life , but in the Catholick church , that is the Church of true believers all over the world , as the words of Cyril of Hierusalem next alleged do shew , in which is nothing for H. T. or against us .

And for the words of Augustin in his Book de vera religione , cap. 7. We must hold the communion of that church which is called catholick both by her own and strangers , they are maimedly recited , Augustin saying , that we are to hold the Christian Religion and communion of that church , not onely which is named catholick , but which is catholick , and is named catholick ; and cap. 6. he explains what is meant by Catholick church , per totum orbem validè latéque diffusa , spread over the whole World firmly and largely , and of the Religion which he terms the History and Prophecy of the temporal dispensation of the divine Providence for the salvation of mankinde to be reformed and repaired unto eternal life . Whereby it may be perceived , that he neither accounted that Christian Religion , which is about the Bishop of Rome's power , or any of the Popish Tenets which Protestants deny , but the Doctrine of Salvation by Christ , nor the catholick church the Roman onely , but the Christian church throughout the World , which consists of them , who are named Christians , Catholicks , or Orthodox , that is , Keepers of integrity , and followers of the things which are right , as he speaks cap. 5. And for the words of Augustine , Epist. 152. that whosoever is divided from the catholick church , how laudable soever he seems to himself to live , &c. he shall be excluded from life , they are impudently appropriated to the Roman church . For a few lines before Augustine declares whom he calls the catholick church , that which is spread over the earth , which is designed by the divine testimonies of holy Scriptures , which beginning from Hierusalem increased in places in which the Apostles preached , and have written the names of the same places in their Epistles and Acts , and was spread over the other Nations . So that clearly Augustine tells us it was not the Roman Church onely which he meant by the Catholick , but also the Corinthian , Ephesian , Thessalonian , and all the rest in the world . And therefore it is apparent that neither this not any other Father understood by the Catholick Church , the Roman onely , and those who acknowledged the Bishop of Rome's Supremacy , nor did they hold a necessity of union with it .

SECT. VIII .

That it is non-sense or falshood to term the Roman Church the Catholick Church , and the shifts of H. T. to avoid this Objection are discovered .

H. T. adds , Object . The Roman Catholick Church is a particular Church , therefore it is not Catholick or Universal . Answ. I distinguish your Antecedent , the Roman Church as taken onely for the congregation of Rome or Italy , is a particular Church , I grant : as taken for the whole collection of Churches holding communion with the See of Rome , I deny it . For so it is an universal Church containing all particular Churches , as all the parts are contained in the whole , and in this acception also it is called the Roman church , because the particular Roman church is the mother church , and hath a power of headship and jurisdiction over all the rest . Object . How can a church of one denomination be universal ? Answ. I have told you already by the extent and latitude of her power , which is over all . So a particular man is called a General , by reason of his power over all the Army .

I Reply , Protestants do rightly object , that the terming of the Roman church catholick , is according to the right sense of words , to speak contradictions , to call that the whole which is not the whole but a part , universal , which is onely particular . The Answer is by a Distinction , which is meer non-sense . The Church of Rome as taken onely for the congregation of Rome or Italy is a particular C●urch , as taken for the whole collection of churches holding communion with the See of Rome , so it is universal . But was ever such language used by any Apostle or Ancient to term the Church of Rome any other than the believers dwelling or being at Rome ? Did ever any of the first Ages term the congregation of Italy , or the whole collection of churches holding communion with the See of Rome the Roman church ? Paul when he wrote to the Church of Rome wrote to all that were in Rome , Rom. 1. 7. and Ignatius the Martyr when he wrote to the Church of Rome terms it , the Church which is seated in a place of the Region of Romans , and the old Councils termed the Bishop of Rome , The Arch-bishop of old Rome , to distinguish it from new Rome , and a Roman Synod is always meant of a Synod in the City of Rome . If the new-minted gibberish of these men be received , then the Church of Millain , of Paris , of Toledo , and the rest are all one with the Roman Church , and the Bishop of Millain , &c. the Bishop of Rome . Who would not think that man crazed that should talk or write so ? By this kinde of talk the Roman Church should not be one and the Corinthian another , but the Roman church , the Corinthian , Ephesian , and all , and the Apostle writing to the Corinthian should write to the Roman Church , charging the Corinthian with Schisms should charge the Roman . But this new canting Language is fit for these Juglers , who have by such terms bewitched silly Papists to receive their new Doctrine .

H. T. saith , As the Roman church is the collection of all churches holding communion with the See of Rome , so it is an universal church containing all particular churches as all the parts are contained in the whole .

I reply , Neither doth he shew any approved Authour for his speech , nor what sort of parts other particular Churches are as they are contained in the Roman as the whole . He will not make it an universal whole which is predicate or said on more churches , in quid , that is , when the question is what the more churches are ? to say they are the Roman . For then it were true to say , the church of Naples is the Roman , and so of other churches . If any were asked who is in his wits , What is the church of Naples ? Would he say , It is the church of Rome ? Nor are other churches essential parts . For then the Roman church should not be , if the churches of Naples , &c. were not : if they apostarize the church of Rome ceaseth to be . Nor will it be said , other churches are integral parts . For then the church of Rome should be maimed , and be but half a church , if they revolted from the faith or obedience to the See or church of Rome . What other parts he means I understand not , nor do I think H. T. distinctly knows himself ; but that he is used to this unintelligible Jesuitical non-sense of Roman catholick church . Sure before he made this the definition of catholick , that it is nothing else but to be coexistent with all time , and to be spread or diffused over all places : according to which , by terming the church of Rome catholick , he should mean that the Roman church hath been in all places since Christ built this church , and in every place of the world : but both these are palpable Lies , contrary to all Histories and sense : nor in this sense should it be as a whole that hath parts , but be the onely and an ubiquetary church .

But he gives two Reasons of this Title , that it is the Mother Church , and hath power of headship and jurisdiction over all the rest . I reply , 1. that both these are manifestly false . For the Roman Church is not the mother Church in any true sense . It is a saying indeed , that God is a believers Father , and the Church his Mother . But however the Ancients have used it , yet the Scripture saith not so , nor is it in any good sense true . For the church is but a congregation of believers , who are first such a●ore they are a church : now then the sense must be the church , that is , believers are the mother of believers , that is , the church , which is ridiculous . It is true , it is said , Gal. 4. 26. The Jerusalem which is above is free , which is the mother of us all : but that is the Evangelical covenant , v. 24. not the church . Nor is there any thing done by the Church , or upon the church , from which in a meet resemblance the church may be termed the mother of believers . They are the Preachers of the Gospel not the church who bring forth souls to Christ . If the term [ Mother Church ] be from hence , that from it the Gospel went forth , it can be meant of none but Jerusalem , from whence the Gospel went into all the world , not from the Roman church . Nor is it true , that the Roman church hath the power of headship over all the rest , no not according to the Papists own opinion , which is that the Bishop of Rome hath this power , and that it belongs to his pastoral office : now I suppose they will not say the church hath the pastoral office , or that they are Pastors ; if they should , they must make Women , who are of the Church as well as Men , Pastors , and all the Believers ( who are the church ) Pastors as well as the Bishop , aud if the church be Pastors or have power of jurisdiction , who are the Sheep who are to be fed , and over whom this jurisdiction is to be exercised ? But if they mean onely by the church universal the Pope of Rome , then all that is to be enquired is who is the true Pope , when enquiry is made which is the true church , and when there is no Pope , then there is no church , and when the Pope is uncertain , it is uncertain which is the church . So ridiculous is the Papists talk and dispute about the church , that there is no tolerable sense can be made with truth of the Roman church being catholick , the mother of churches , having power of Headship and Jurisdiction over all churches . Nor is it true , that the Pope of Rome hath either of right or in possession such power ; not of right , as shall be shewed art. 7. where it will appear that the claim to it is meerly impudent , and arrogant , without any colour of right ; nor in possession . For besides the Protestant churches , the Greek churches neither now nor heretofore , when unquestionably orthodox , were ever subject to the Romish Bishop . Yet were these things granted to H. T. that the Roman church were Mother and Head , is this a fit reason to term it catholick ? Will any call a mother of twenty children all her twenty children ? Will any man call Julius Caesar , because Dictator of Rome , or the Roman Senate , because Rulers , all the Roman people , or all the people of that Empire ? H. T. his instance is frivolous : Though men call the Rulers of an Army the Captain General , yet not a general man , or the universal Army ; and sutably , if it were allowed , that the Bishop of Rome were universal Bishop , yet in no good sense could he or the Roman church be termed the universal church . But this talk about the Roman catholick church is manifestly ridiculous non-sense or false .

H. T. adds , Object . You communicate not with us , and many others , therefore your communion is not catholick or universal . Answ. I grant the Antecedent , but deny the Consequent : For universal communion requires not communion with all particular sects or persons , but onely with all true believers , no , A man that is an Heretick after the first and second admonition avoid . Tit. 3. 10 , 11.

Answ. To catholick communion is requisite communion with all Christian churches , though not with all particular sects . And that the Protestant churches are no Hereticks is manifest from their confessions , which agree with the Scripture Doctrine ; although Papists do clamorously term them such , and destroy them as such , and therein shew themselves Successours to Nero , not to Peter ; whereas Papists are the most manifest Schismaticks , and greatest Hereticks that ever were . I pass on to the next Article .

ARTIC. V. The Roman Church is neither proved to be the Catholick Church , nor the highest visible Judge of Controversies , nor is it proved that she is infallible both in her Propositions and Definitions of all Points of Faith ; nor to have power from God to oblige all men to believe her under pain of damnation : but all this is a meer impudent and arrogant claim of Romanists that hath no colour of proof from Scripture or Antiquity .

SECT. I.

The deceit of H. T. is shewed in asserting an Infallibility and Judicature of Controversies in the Church , which he means of the Pope ▪

H. T. entitles his fifth Article thus , The churches infallibility demonstrated , and saith , Our Tenet is , that the Roman catholick church is the highest visible Judge of controversies , and that she is infallible both in her Propositions and Definitions of all points of faith ; having a power from God to oblige all men to believe her under pain of damnation . And six pages after p. 70. he saith thus , Note here for your better understanding this whole Question , that when we affirm , the Church is infallible in things of faith , by the word [ Church ] we understand not onely the Church diffused over all the World , unanimously teaching , whose Doctrine of Faith we hold to be infallible , but also the Church represented in a Council perfectly oecumenical , ( that is to say , called out of the whole world , and approved by the Pope ) whose Definitions of Faith we hold to be infallible .

Ans. WE have here a most arrogant proud claim like that of the King of Tyrus , Ezek. 28. 2 , 3. I am God , I sit in the seat of God , there is no secret that they can hide from me . For what is this less which is here ascribed to meer men , often the worst of men , than the prerogative of the Son of God : surely it's more than Angels have , Job 4. 18 : But though this Author is bold enough in the title and tenet , yet in his after note he hath such subterfuges as shew his despair of making it good , and his deceitful mockage of his unwary reader . For , 1. He deals like a sophister that after his arguments states the question . 2. He doth so shift off this infallibility from one to another , that he knows not well where to fix it . Fain he would fasten it on the Pope , as he doth in a manner at last ; and Hart more plainly confesseth with Rainold , ch. 7. divis. 7. though it behove the Pope to use the advise of his brethren ; and therefore I spake of Confistories , Courts and Councils ; yet whether he follow their advise or no his decrees are true . But then the arguments from Scripture and Fathers which speak of the church , not of the Pope , had appeared to be impertinent . Therefore he doth not in plain words disclaim it's infallibility ; but saith , When we affirm the church is infallible in things of faith , by the word [ church ] we understand not only the church diffused over all the world unanimously teaching , whose doctrines of faith we hold to be infallible . Wherein you may perceive . 1. Egregious vanity , in making the Roman church Catholick . 2. The Church diffused over all the world teaching . 3. Teaching unanimously , which are all like a sick mans dreams of a golden mountain , there having never been any such thing as this in the world , nor ever is likely to be . 2. Egregious deceit in the terming this church infallible , Judge of controversies , propounding and defining points of faith , having power from God to oblige all men under pain of damnation to believe her : which is meerly to delude silly Papists speaking of the churches power , which they place in the Pope and so draw them into his net . For I would ask this H. T. where or when the Catholick church diffused over the whole world distinct from an oecumenical council did teach , much lesse teach unanimously , or how they know it ? he will certainly say , it hath been in councils or the Popes determinations . Why then doth not this Author say plainly , the infallibility and judgement of controversies is not in the Catholick church diffused over the world , according to the meaning of the words ( which were indeed to say all believers were infallible ) but say , he means not only , which is as if he had said , the Catholick church diffused over the world is infallible , but not it only , when he means it not to be infallible at all : nor doth he deal better in placing it in a council . For. 1. He supposeth such a council perfectly Oecumenical called out of the whole world , as never was nor is likely ever to be . 2. This council he will not have to be infallible without the Popes approbation . 3. He placeth the words [ whose definitions of faith we hold to be infallible ] so as that a reader may conceive either he means the councils or the Popes definitions . However it is certain he makes the council without the Pope not infallible , so that the Pope hath the negative voice . But indeed this Author or many of his fellows at least hold , that if the Pope himself without a council define any point of faith it must be received ; yea Bellarmin saith l. 4. de Pontifice Romano . c. 5. if the Pope should erre in commanding vices or forbidding vertues , the church should be bound to believe vices to be good and vertues to be evil , unless she would sin against conscience . So that however the church be pretended , it is the Pope who is intended , who is masked under the name of the church , but sometimes termed the Pastor of the Church , as if the same person could be relative and correlative too , Pastor and Church both . And this one person ( as if all knowledge lay in his breast ) must be the Judge of all controversies of faith , though perhaps an infidel in heart , one of the greatest perverters of the faith of Christ in the world , and the greatest offender , and most justly accused of any in the world , being notoriously and horribly vitious , and maintain manifest sins , ( not only erre in doubtful matters , as Bellarmin would seem to limit his speech in his recognition ) even these monstrous sins , of breaking oaths and leagues , killing Kings , allowing incestuous marriages , making and worshipping of Images , Yea though he be so unlearned ( as it is said of one ) as not to understand Grammer , Pope Gregory the great himself understood not Greek , Pope Zachary condemned Bishop Vigilius as an heretick for holding Antipodes , though he be seldome a Divine , for the most part a meer Canonist , whose very decrees , Breves and Bulls shew such grosse ignorance and pervertings of Scripture , as a graduate in the English Universities would be ashamed of , yet he must be Judge of controversies between the most learned Divines in the world and in the most weighty points of faith . Surely were not Papists either very silly or very Atheistical , or very much bewitched with the Romish sorceries they would never be so sottish as they are to trust to the Popes definitions in points of faith , but of any other most suspect them , especially considering how much respect to their own gain and greatnesse , how little to the good of mens souls is in all their determinations . No marvail though different parties appeal to the Pope , yet neither stand to his sentence , as of old have been seen in sundry points , and as at this day in the late controversies between Jansenists and Molinists in France .

SECT. II.

Luke 10. 16. proves not the Roman or Catholick churches infallibility .

BUt let us view the proofs that are brought by H. T. for his monstrous assertion of the Roman Catholick ( as he terms it ) churches judicature of controversies , infallibility in her propositions and definitions of all points of faith and power from God to oblige all men to believe her under pain of damnation : where first he brings four arguments for her infallibility . The first is thus . No man by hearing ( or believing ) Christ can hear an errour in faith . But every man by hearing the church hears Christ , therefore no man by hearing the church can hear an errour in faith , therefore she is infallible . The Major must be granted , otherwise you charge Christ to be the Author of damning lyes . The Minor is proved ; he that beareth you ( the church ) heareth me , and he that despiseth you despiseth me . St. Luk. 10 16. The consequences are both unavoidable .

Answ. 1. The conclusion is not the same with the tenet , which was that the Roman Catholick church is infallible , but in the conclusion is no mention of the Roman church more then of any other church , to wit , the Hierosolymitan or Antiochian , and so that which was to be proved is not proved . 2. The Minor is denyed , and in the proof from Luk. 10. 16. is with a shamelesse fraud foisted in ( the church ) it being certain that at that time there was no Catholick church diffused over the world , much lesse Roman church at all , to whom those words of Christ could be directed , but by [ you ] are meant either the seventy Disciples , or the twelve Apostles , as comparing , Luk. 10. 16. with Matth. 10. 40. makes it probable . Nor doth Christ say , he that heareth you heareth me , and he that despiseth you despiseth me in any case whatsoever , for then the high Priests had heard Christ when they heard Judas ( who was one of the Apostles ) offer and promise to sell Christ for money , and Peter when ●e denied Christ : but then when the Apostles or seventy spake the words and message of Christ . In which case I grant the church of Rome and Pope , yea and Bishop of Jerusalem , Corinth or any private Christian , though but a woman , are to be heard and are infallible . So that this place is grossely abused for proof of the Catholick Roman Churches , or oecumenical councils , or Popes infallibility in their definitions of faith , till it be proved that they define what Christ did before deliver .

SECT. III.

Matth. 18. 17. or 18. 1 John 4. 6. Mark . 16. 15 , 16. make nothing for H. T. his claim of the Roman church , or Popes or oecumenical councils infallibility .

THe second argument is this . No man can be damned for not believing an error in faith . But every man shall be damned for not believing the church , therefore no man can believe an error in faith by believing the church . The Major is proved , because otherwise God were a tyrant in damning us for not believing a lye , which contradicts himself . The Minor is as evident ; he that will not hear the church let him be to thee as an heathen and a publican : so Matth. 18. 18. He that knoweth God heareth us , and he that heareth us not is not of God ; in this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error . 1 John 4. 6. Go ye preaching the Gospel to all creatures , &c. He that believeth not shall be condemned , St. Mark . 16. 16.

Answ. 1. The conclusion is not the same with H. T. his tenet , and so the proof is in the same manner faulty as in the first argument . 2. The Minor is denied : nor doth any one of the texts alleged prove it or any thing like it , For , 1. The text Matth. 18 17 , or 18. is not as this Author cites it [ be that will not hear the Church ] as if it were an indefinite speech equipollent to this universal [ every man that will not hear the Church ] without which H. T. proves not his Minor , but thus [ but and if he hear not the Church ] restraining it to the brother finning against his brother : And first , reproved singly . 2. Before two or three witnesses . 3. Of whom the Church hath been told . 4. And he doth not obey the Church . 2. The text speaks not at all of believing the Church in a point of faith , but doing right to an injured brother . For the phrase of sinning against a brother , ver. 15. can neither be meant of heresie , or error in faith , no nor sinfulnesse in life , which is termed commonly ( though for the most part mistakingly ) a publick scandal , or scandalous practise , but only of a particular injury , such as he , against whom the sin was , might forgive , as is manifest from , ver. 21. and the parable following : whereas to forgive heresies or errors in faith or publick scandalous practises , is not in the power of a private brother . 3. That by [ the Church ] is meant , the Christian Church is not certain , sith it is not as Matth. 16. 18. [ my Church ] but [ the Church ] nor if it were , can it be understood either of the universal Church diffused over all the world , sith it is impossible for every injured brother to tell his injury to it , not of a perfectly Oecumenical council called out of the world ; for either there never was such a Church , or if ever there were it hath not been in many ages together . H. T. confesseth , p. 7. 25. the second third and tenth ages produced no councils . Nor if there were in every age or every year , could every injured brother addresse their complaints to them . And the same may be said of the Pope , sometimes there hath been none for some years together , sometimes it hath been uncertain which was the true Pope , sometimes by reason of persecutions and for other causes no accesse could be to him , sometimes the wronged brother could not travel to him , nor he hear his cause . Nor is there any direction to go to his legate , or any assurance that he can commit his power to another , or that such a legate is infallible . Undoubtedly by [ the Church ] Matth. 18. 17. must be meant such an assembly , whether regularly formed , or otherwise occasionally convening , which is of near accesse , and which is fit to hear the cause and to determin . And I must confesse that I cannot deprehend that by [ the Church ] is meant the meer Ecclesiastical authority , nor is here appointed that disciplin Ecclesiastical , which is termed the power of the keyes , to excommunicate hereticks and scandalous livers in the Church , but a direction to a wronged brother how to deal in case of particular injuries , the neglect of which the Apostle Paul blames so much in the Corinthians , 1 Cor. 6. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. 4. Neither doth [ let him be to thee as a heathen and a Publican ] import excommunication out of the Church . For it is said , let him be to thee , not to the Church , as a heathen or a Publican , nor is any power at all therein given to the Church to excommunicate : all that the Church is to do , is to injoyn what the injurious brother should do , that excommunication which is here mentioned is appointed or permitted to the wronged brother . Nor did the being a Publican exclude out of the Jewish assembly or service , the Publican went up to the Temple to pray , Luke 18. 10. Matthew a Publican was a Jew and had the priviledge of a Jew though a Publican : nor was a heathen , as such , damned , there were proselytes , as Corn●lius , who were heathens , and yet were accepted with God : only the publicans and heathens were such as the Jews would not have familiar arbitrary converse with , as Luke 15. 2. & 19. 7. Acts 11. 3. appears , and therefore the speech can have no other sense but this : If thy brother who wrongs thee will neither right thee after private rebuke , nor after rebuke before two or three witnesses , nor after the monition of the Church , that is either that particular assembly of Christians to which ye are joyned , or some other competent number of Christian brethren fit to hear such differences , then mayst thou shun his society in such a manner as Jews are wont to shun heathens and publicans , by not going in to them to eat , or inviting them , or other unnecessary society , that so they may know how evil their dealing is and be ashamed and amended . Which is nothing to that Ecclesiastical discipline or juridical excommunication which is at this day arrogantly claimed by Popes even over Emperours , and by other Ecclesiastical prelates for breaking their Canons : much lesse doth this text infer damnation to him that shall not hear the universal Church , or Oecumenical council , or Roman Pope .

The other text , 1 John 4. 6. is lesse to H. T. his purpose . For it speaks not a word of hearing the Catholick Roman Chu●ch , or universal , diffused over all the world , or Oecumenical council or Roman Pop● , but of hearing the Apostles , and other teachers of the Gospel opposite to false Proph●●s , ver. 1. who denyed Jesus Christ to become in the flesh , and of hearing them , not in every thing , but in the doctrine of Christs coming in the flesh .

And in like sort , Marke 16 15 , 16. is a plain command to the Apostles , not to the Bishop of Rome or an Oecumenical council , or the universal Church : for then the Pope should be ●ound to leave his See , and the Bishops in a council to be non resident , and go into all the world , and the Apostles are bid preach , not Popes decrees or councils Canons , but the Gospel of Christ , and the threatning of damnation is not to him that shall not believe the Popes decrees , or the determinations of an Oecumenical council or universal Church , but the Gospel of Christ , which reacheth not them who deny the Popish doctrine of transubstantiation , purgatory , humane merits , worshipping imag●● , not eating flesh in Lent , Priests single life , and such other innovations as neither Christ nor his Apostles taught : but such as believe not the doctrine of Jesus being the Christ , and salvation by him alone . Whence it is apparent to any that are not resolved to shut their eyes against manifest light , that none of these texts do prove the infallibility of the Roman Church , or Oecumenical council or Pope , but are impiously wrested to uphold the most cruel tyranny that ever was in the world .

SECT. IV.

None of these texts Matth. 28. 20. 1 Tim. 3. 15. Matth. 16. 18. John 14. 26. John 16. 23. Act. 15. 28. do prove the infallibility in points of faith of the Catholick or Roman Church , or the Pope or a general council approved by him .

H. T. adds a third argument for the Churches infallibil●ty thus : If Christ be alwayes with his Church , and have made her the pillar and firmament of truth , against which the gates of hell ( heresies ) shall not prevail , and given her the holy Ghost to assist her to all truth , so that her definitions in an approved general council are the very dictates of the holy Ghost , then is it impossible the Church should erre in faith : But all this Christ hath done for his Church , therefore it is impossible the Church should erre in faith . The sequel of the Major is manifest by the very terms of the supposition : the Minor is proved , go ye teaching all Nations , &c. And behold I am with you all daies ( he is with her teaching ) St. Matth. 28. 20. The house of God , which is the pillar and firmament of truth , 1 Tim. 3. 15. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it . St. Matth. 16. 18. He will give you another paraclere that he may abide with you for ever , ●c . He shall teach you all things , and suggest to you all things whatsoever I shall say to you ( in all points of faith ) St. John 14. 26. He shall ●●ach you all truth ( no errors ) St. John 16. 13. It hath seemed good ( say the Apostles in council ) to the holy Ghost and to us , Act. 15. 28.

Answ. This Author still abuseth his reader by putting his conclusion otherwise then his tenet . For whereas his tenet was , that the Roman Catholick Church is infallible ▪ he puts his conclusion thus , [ the Church is infallible ] as if [ the Church ] and [ the Catholick Church ] were all one , and [ the Catholick ] and [ the Roman ] were all one , and [ the Church of Christ ] and [ the visible Church militant ] were the same : which are indeed fallacies , which easily take with silly or prejudiced Papists , that take what is said of the Church to be meant of the visible militant Church , and what is said of the visible militant to be said of the Catholick Church , and by the Catholick imagin the Roman meant , and by the Roman the Pope . But to discover the vanity of this argument . 1. The sequel of the Major is denied , nor is it manifest by the terms of the supposition . For Christs presence is with every believer , and he hath made every believer a pillar and firmament of truth , and against every true believer the gates of hell ( heresies ) shall not prevail , and he hath given the holy Ghost to every true believer to assist him to all truth as well as to the Church , and his definitions are the very dictates of the holy Ghost , when he defines according to Scripture , and yet it is not impossible he should erre in faith . Christ hath made promises of his presence and of his spirit , and his spirit is said to be in and with every true believer , as well as the Church , Rom. 8. 1 , 9 , 15. 1 Cor. 6. 19. 2 Cor. 1. 22. and 13. 5. Gal. 4 6. Ephes. 1. 13. 2 Cor. 6. 16. John 10 16 , 27 , 28 , 29. and yet believers may erre in faith , Rom. 14. 2 , 3 , 5. 1 Cor. 15. 12. Gal. 3. 1. and 4. ●0 . 21. And therefore it is not true , which this Author supposeth manifest .

Not is the Minor tr●e or proved by the texts he brings . For the promise , Matth. 28 20. is not to the Church , but to the Apostles and other teachers , who succeed them : nor is the promise made to them that they should teach no error in faith : but that teaching ( as H. T. speaks ) or as long as they teach the true faith , he would be with them by assisting and prospering them in their work . The words , 1 Tim. 3. 15 may be meant of the mystery of godliness mentioned , v. 16. thus , the Mystery of godliness is the pillar and firmament , ground or seat of truth , and without controver●ie great , which I do conceive after Cameron and others to be the truest exposition , as the same Apostle in other places gives such elogies to the great points of faith , 1 Tim. 1. 15. and 4. 9. and 2 Tim. 2. 11. and the conjunction 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 and ver. 16. doth make it very probable . Nor doth Grotius his reason avoid it : For the mystery even according to this exposition is the subject not the predicate . Others refer it to Timo●hy , but then it should be in the accusative case . But let it be granted that it is meant of the Church which is said , that it is the pillar and firmament of truth , yet it is certain from the very words , that it is meant of that Church in which Timothy was directed how to behave himself , which was the Church of Ephesus , as appears 1 Tim. 1. 3. not the Church of Rome , and therefore must be understood in such a sense as agrees to it : which the Papists themselves will not say was infallible or could not erre in faith . And therefore they must yeild it to be meant either of what they were in duty to be , or what they were actually , thus they were such , as by profession and practice did hold forth , and maintain and uphold the truth in those parts : not that they held nothing but tenets , nor so held forth the truth , but that they might erre and decay in their holding out the truth . For it is certain they did so , Rev. 2. 4 5. Act. 20. 29 , 30. The terms [ the pillar and firmament , or ground or seat of truth ] are but metaphors , and whereas there are these two things signified by hem . 1. The upholding of the truth , so as that otherwise it should fall . 2. The fixing of the truth there , so as that it should abide and be permanent there , doubtlesse the former sense cannot be true . For though God should have no Church on earth or in heaven , no Apostle , Prophet , Bishop , yet his truth would be upheld ; his word is for ever settled in heaven , Psal. 119. 89. Christ who is the truth , John 14. 6. abides for ever , and the spirit of truth remains for ever , and will uphold his truth . If it were as some of the Romanists say , the Church only abode in the Virgin Mary at Christs death , or as others say , in the time of Antichrist there shall be no sacrifice , nor ceremonies , nor religion , yet the Gospel of Christ shall be everlasting ; as the Angel terms it , Revel. 14. 6. therefore of necessity it must be understood in that sense in which it notes stability , permanency , fixednesse or abiding , and the sense is , the Church is the company among whom the truth abides unshaken , in which sense Revel. 3. 12. it is said , him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the Temple of my God , and he shall go no more out . And so 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 is used , 1 Cor. 7. 37. for stedfast , and 1 Cor. 15. 58. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , stedfast , unmoveable are made synonymous , and Col. 1. 13. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , grounded and setled in the faith , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 not moved away from the hope . So that the meaning is no more but this , the Church of the living God is not a tile which is often shaken and blown down with the winde , but a pillar that abides unshaken , and the seat or ground or basis of truth , where it abides being received and embraced by it . Which is to be understood of the invisible Church of true believers ; and though not of every truth , yet of the main truth of the Gospel , as it is termed , Gal. 1. 5. the Word of truth , James 1. 18. the truth , John 17. 17. which is expressed in the next words , 1 Tim. 3. 16. from which he foretels an Apostasie , 1 Tim. 4. 1. and cannot be meant of any truth whatsoever which may be in controversie . For it is certain no meer mortal man , nor all men , were ever so infallible . Which being rightly understood makes nothing for infallibility in all points which the Catholick Roman Church , Oecumenical council , or Pope , or all together shall define , as H. T. would have it . The next text , Matth. 16. 18. is as little to his purpose . For it is not said against the Roman Church , much lesse it is said against an Oecumenical council or the Pope of Rome , the gates of hell shall not prevail , but against my Church , that is , Christs wheresoever . 2. Nor is it proved , that by the gates of hell are meant heresies as this Author supposeth . The truth is , however by the modern use the term [ hell ] is appropriated almost to the place of the damned and the tormented there , yet the word [ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ] translated [ hell ] is either never or not many times used in the bible for that place or those persons , nor was of old the word [ hell ] appropriated to that place of torment , but meant of the grave or the state of the dead , in which sense it was meant of old that Christ went into hell , that is for a time to abide among the dead , as the learned Usher proves in his answer to the Jesuits challenge , ch. 8. and the gates of hell are no more than the gates of death or the grave , as Isa. 38. 10 ▪ Psal. 9. 13. &c. is meant . So that the meaning of Matth. 16. 18. is no more but this , the gates of hell , or the grave , that is death , shall not so prevail against my Church , but that I will raise it up at the last day to life eternal , as our Lord Christ speaks , John 6. 39. Which being the genuine meaning , it is true onely of the church of the elect , not of the meer visible , nor of that is such a prevalency denied , but that they may erre in faith , however it be assured that it shall not erre in faith finally to perdition .

The next Text John 14. 26. is ill translated , [ shall suggest to you all things whatsoever I shall say to you ] the words being 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that is , he shall minde you of all things which I have said to you : nor is this meant onely in points of faith , as this Authour adds , without any reason in the Text , that he might restrain it to them , in which he would have the church to be accounted infallible , but also in matters of practise ; and this is meant onely of the Apostles , as the words [ which I have said to you ] and particularities expressed vers. 25 , 28 , 29. chap. 15. 27. chap. 16 4 , 6 , 12 , 13. shew . And in like manner is the next Text , John 16. 13. appropriate to the Apostles , to whom the words were spoken . Nor are the words restrained to matters of faith , but extended also to points of practise , and there is a promise of shewing them also things to come . Which argues plainly , that it is not a promise to the whole Church , or Pope , or Council , or every particular believer , sith it is certain that to none of these it is verified , they have not things to come shewed to them according to that promise , and therefore it must needs be impertinently alleged by H. T. to prove his Minor .

The last Text Acts 15. 28. H. T. himself confesseth was said by the Apostles in council , not by Peter onely , nor by a council without the Apostles , much less by any Bishop of one City as Rome is , and therefore proves not any unerringness in any but the Apostles , nor in them at all times in all points of faith , but onely their not erring in their determination at that time . So that his Texts do none of them prove his Minor .

SECT. V.

There may be good assurance of the Word of God and its meaning , and of our salvation without supposing the churches infallibility .

H. T. adds , The consequence is confirmed , because were not the Church infallible in things of faith , we could have no infallible assurance at this distance , what were the Word of God , what not , or what is the true sense and meaning of any one Book , or Chapter in the whole Bible , nor consequently of our salvation , since without faith it is impossible to please God , Heb. 11. 6.

Answ. H. T. Hath here vented a most poysonous and impious speech , which tends to ruine the Foundation of Christian Faith , and to promote Atheism , yea in seeking to promote the arrogant claim of the Roman Bishop he doth by his arguing quite pull it down . For if there be no infallible assurance without the churches infallibility in things of faith , what is the Word of God , what not , nor what is the meaning of one Book or Chapter in the whole Bible , then there is no certainty but from the Churches testimony of the truth of Christian Religion , and that being questioned we have no way to convince an Atheist , or Jew , or Ma●om●tan , who deny such in●allibility : nor hath the Pope any way to prove his Supremacy or Transubstantiation to be certain points of Faith , but by the Churches infallibility , that is indeed his own saying , in which he that believes him upon no better ground is departed from faith in God to faith in a confes●edly sinfull , and oft times notoriously wicked man , and so makes not God's authority the formal mo●ive and object of his faith , as H. T. said pag. 58. falsly the Romanists do . Besides how injurious is it to God to make him to have delivered his minde so as none can understand it without the Pope or a Council approved by him , of whom , according to H. T. his Doctrine , who saith , pag. 202. that sense cannot judge at all of substance though it be under sensible accidents , there is no certainty , whether they be men or not , if we cannot judge of substance by sense . Surely Christ did very ill to direct Infidels to search the Scriptures , John 5. 39 and never to repair to the Church to be resolved in points of faith , if H. T. say true . How much doth he abase the credit of the Scripture , who makes it to depend on mens ( for such is the Churches pretended infallibility ) report , and ascribes it to Popes and Councils , who do oft contradict themselves and one another , which is onely to be had from God and his Word ? What is this but as in another case Tertullian said of the Roman Senates decreeing who should be worshipped as God , God shall not be God unless man will , so Gods Word shall not be his Word unless man will . Which is so much the worse in H. T. who Art. 8. ascribes that assurance to unwritten tradition ( of which there is no assurance but from men confessedly fallible , as shall be shewed Art. 8. ) which he denies to be from Scripture , as if the obscure tradition of unknown persons from Age to Age were more certain than the great written tradition received from Apostles by the whole Church . Besides , how doth he reckon of all other besides Popes and Councils , as if they were all idiots and fools , that they can understand no Chapter of the Bible without the Pope , who hath been sometimes altogether unlearned ? What Blockheads would he have men think themselves after all their study of Languages , and Arts , and of the Scripture , that yet they cannot be certain what is the true sense and meaning of Matth. 4. Acts 8. or any other Chapter in the Bible , unless the Church , that is the Pope , tell them ? Why do not all their Commentators , and Preachers first ask the Pope of the me●ning of the Scripture afore they by writing or preaching take on them to expound it ? Why doth not the Pope forbid them to expound till they have consulted him ? Will ●e permi● them to teach that of which they have no infallible assurance ? Why doth he tie men to follow the consent of Fathers , as Pope Pius the fourth in his Bull did , if the Fathers yield no infallible assurance of the true meaning of any Chapter in the Bible without the Churches , that is , the Popes or his Councells infallibility ? How did it come to pass that the Fathers Chrysostome , Hi●rome , &c. did so well expound the Scriptures as that their consent must be the Rule of modern Exposition ? Did they first consult the Church , or the Church them ? Pope Damasus I believe had more help from Hierome to expound Scripture by , than Hierome from D●m●sus ? Have the Popes any better means to expound Scripture by than the Fathers ? or the Fathers than other learned men in these days ? Wherein did any of the Fathers exceed Cajetan , Arias Monta●us , and such learned Romanists or any of all the Popes after the Apostles days in ability to open Scripture ? Would not such men as these secretly disdain and smile in scorn , if any should prefer any of the best Expo●itions of Popes before their own ? Will the Jansenians or Molini●●s think either the late Pope Innocent or the present Pope Alexander more infallible in their E●positions than themselves ? I trow not ; so little is the pretended infallibility of the Church esteemed , when it toucheth themselves , however they make a great noise of it against Protestants , yea some Papists have well preferred the Expositions of later Writers before the Fathers , and Councils , and Popes , giving this for a Reason , that later Writers have had more help in that they have had their own abilities and diligence to boot for finding the meaning of Scripture , besides the Fathers Writings , and may see farther than they did , as a Childe set on a Giants shoulder , as Banner did fitly express it Do not at this day the learned Expositors reject the Expositions of Fathers , and Popes , and Councils ? Doth not Maldonat the Jesuit expresly reject in his Comment●ry on John 6. 53. the Exposition of that Verse by which Pope Innocent , Augustine and many of the Fathers following , held the giving the Eucharist to Infants necessary to their salvation , which the Council of Tren● it self doth condemn ? So sottish a conceit hath H. T. here vented , that doubtless none but the ignorant sort of Popish Proselytes can believe him in , if they do not resolve not to seem to see what they do see .

But were it granted that the Church were infallible , I would fain know how H. T. can demonstrate who or which is that Church which is infallible , or give assurance at this distance from Rome , that this or that point of faith is thus determined by that infallible Church . Will he make every Priest , or Legate , or Register of the Pope to be infallible ? If not , let him tell me how he is infallibly assured that Pope Innocent the third , or the Lat●ran Council did define Transubstantiation , or Pope Leo the tenth and the last Lateran Council the Popes Supremacy . If he say by universal tradition , or the Records which are kept and are to be seen , and the agreement of opposite parties , ( though in the points named there are none of these means which do give such assurance of those determinations as is given by them of the Scriptures ) sure me thinks H. T. ( who makes such determinations to be assuredly theirs upon such or the like Reasons of their credibility ) should yield that there is more assurance from these ( without the infallibility of the Church ) of the holy Scriptures , being Gods Word , and the true sense and meaning of it . Will H. T. be more unbelieving than a Jew who acknowledgeth the Books of Moses , the Psalms , and Prophets , to be Gods Word ? Will he not allow that to a Christian which the Jew had , to wit , assur●nce infallible , from Micah 5. 2. that the Messias●hould ●hould be born at Be●hlehem , without the Churches infallibility ? Will H. T. think he can make such men as Arias Montanus , or Cardinal Caj●tan , and other learned Romanists believe that they are not certain of the Gospel of Matthew to be Gods Word , or of the true sense and meaning of the third , fourth , fifth , sixth , seventh Chapters thereof , without the Churches declaration ? Did they gather their Expositions out of Popes Decrees , Canons of Councils , or examine them by them ? Does not he know that in many places those and other learned men have interpreted Texts otherwise than Popes and Councils approved by him have expounded them ? Do not they know that such an attempt would be but an exposing of Popes and Councils to contempt , and make their Canon Law appear ●idiculous ? What unmercifulness and carelesness of mens souls is there in Popes , Councils , Churches , if they are infallible , that in the space of sixteen hundred years they have not given us such a Commentary on the Bible as may take away all doubts from inquiring Christians about the true meaning of the Scripture , and determine all controversies in points of faith ? Sure it 's fitter work than to enrich their kindred , advance base sons , give audience to Embassadours ▪ over-aw Princes and Emperours , subdue the holy Land . About which Popes and Councils have wasted a world of blood and treasure , when perhaps one Protestant or Popish commentator hath profitably illustrated the whole Bible . Why doth H. T. with his collegues , if they believe what he saith of the infallibility of the church to be true , petition the Pope to do this , or call a council , and at last together do it ? To what purpose should any else but Popes and councils study the Scripture , compare copies , revise Translations , examine Interpretation , if there be no assurance in points of faith of the meaning of the Scripture , without the churches infallibility ? But alas ! how far from infallibility Popes are , and of all men the unfittest to do any thing in this kinde , the shamefull disagreement between Pope Sixtus the fifth and Clement the eighth their Editions of the vulgar Latin Bible doth abundantly declare , as may be seen in Dr. James his Bellum Papale ; whereby it may be perceived how miserably and perpetually the souls of Christians must fluctuate and be tossed up and down , and at last drowned , if they have no assurance of the meaning of Scripture , but from this pretended infallibility of the church , which is no better to stay a Soul than an anchor of cork to stay a ship . I abhor therefore justly this blasphemous speech of H. T. whereby the souls of men must be brought to waver in faith , if they receive it , and not onely sinfull , but also the weakest and worst of men ( for such they confess many of the Popes have been ) idolized by ascribing that to them which is proper onely to him who cannot be deceived , nor deceive . And I protest , that should the Pope and his Consistory , or general Council , and all the Churches of the World conspire together to say , that the Books of Moses , the Prophets , the Psalms , of the four Evangelists , Paul , James , Peter , Jude , and John , are not the Word of God , yet I am assured not onely by tradition of the Jews and Christians , but also by the very confessions of Adversaries , and chiefly by the matter of them , which shews it self to come from God , the Spirit of God giving me a discerning understanding thereof , that they are the Word of God , and that the meaning of them is in the main points of faith , as the Articles of the Creed express concerning one God and one Lord , his Incarnation , Preaching , Crucifying , Death , Resurrection , Ascension , coming to Judgement , the holy Spirit , the Church of God , forgiveness of sins by faith in Christ , Resurrection of the body , and life eternal : which I know by understanding the meaning of the words , and thereby am assured that neither is the Popes Supremacy , nor his and his Councils infallibility , nor his power of granting Absolutions , and Indulgences by his Bull , nor the Transubstantiation of Bread into Christ's Flesh , nor the worshipping of Images , nor a Purgatory fire after Death in a part of Hell , nor communion under one kinde , nor Invocation of dead Saints and holy Angels , nor Prayer in an unknown Tongue , nor Justification by Works , nor good Works meriting eternal life , of condignity taught in them . And if I did think I were to doubt of any of these Assertions I should turn Sceptick , and doubt whether there were a Moses , or David , or Solomon , or Mahomet , whether I knew the meaning of their words , yea whether there be such a City as Rome or Trent , such a man as the Pope , such a Council as the Tridentin , such Canons as are said to be theirs , or such a Creed as is said to be by Pope Pius the fourth required to be confessed by Romanists , or that the meaning were as H. T. conceives ; in a word , I should begin to doubt whether I hear what I hear , should affirm any thing , make any Confession of Faith , but think my self to be in a Dream when I write , talk , eat , drink , hear , or do any acts of a living waking man .

As for assurance of our salvation , the denial of which H. T. counts an absurdity , I am glad to read it , and that thereby he gives some occasion to question whether he believes the Doctrine of the Trent Council , Sess 6. chap. 9. That no man can know by certainty of Faith , which cannot be false , that he hath obtained the grace of God . But for my part , as I know that the Doctrine of the Romanists is inconsistent with it self , when they teach that the Priests Absolution and ministring Sacraments doth give infallibly Grace and Remission of Sins , and yet that a man cannot be certain with certainty of faith that he hat● obtained Grace . So I am inf●llibly assured without any Popes , or Councils , or Churches determination of my salvation through faith in Christ Jesus by the Spirit of adoption , and hope to please God by faith in Christ , though I reject Popes , Councils , Churches , Decrees , or Canons , which are not from the holy Scripture , but unwritten tradition or invention of men , many of them being most foolish and ridiculous toys and abuses of Scripture , more like Mahome●'s Alcoran , than the Oracles of God .

SECT. VI.

Neither can the Church oblige men under pain of damnation to believe her Definitions of Faith , nor is there any such judicature as H. T. asserts to be ascribed to her : nor do any of the Fathers cited by H. T. say it is , but the words of Irenaeus , Cyprian , lib. 1. epist. 3. August . con● . Epist. Fund . cap. 5. &c. are shewed not to be for it , but some of them plainly against it .

H. T. hath one more Argument for his Delilah , the Churches infallibility , which is his fourth and last , thus , The Church hath a power from God to oblige all men under pain of Damnation to believe her in her Proposals and Definitions of Faith . But she could not have such a Power from God unless she were infallible in her Proposals and Definitions of Faith . Therefore she is infallible in her Proposals and Definitions of Faith . The Major is proved by all those Texts above cited in the first and second Arguments , as also by the Councils of all Ages , which command all men under pain of Damnation to believe and subscribe to her Decrees and Definitions of Faith , which hath accordingly been done by the Fathers and all true Believers . The Minor is proved by reason , because it were not consistent with the justice , mercy or veracity of God to give a fallible and erring Judge such a power in things of that high consequence .

Answ. 1. THe conclusion is still different from the tenet . 2. The Major is denied , and it is denied that the texts cited did prove it , no● doth the practise of the councils putting anathema to their canons prove it . For , 1. It is not proved they did well in so doing , except when their definitions agree with the holy Scriptures , and when they do so , they do not more then every believer may do , whom they will not say to be infallible . 2. Nor have all the Fathers or true believers subscribed to the decrees of councils and their definitions of faith : nor do the Papists themselves subscribe to those they call general councils ; not to the Chalcedon which gave the Patriarch of Constan●inople equal power with the Roman in his Province , and ascribed the Popes dignity not to any grant of Christ to Peter , but to custome out of regard to Rome as the imperial city ; not to the council of Basil or Constance , which made the council above the Pope .

But H. T. adds an argument for the Churches supreme power of judicature . That is the supreme Judge in every cause , who hath an absolute power to oblige all dissenters to an agreement , and from whom there can be no appeal in such a cause . But the Catholick Church hath an absolute power to oblige all that disagree in controverted points of faith , nor is there any appeal from her decision , therefore the Catholick Church is supreme Judge in controverted points of faith . The Major is manifest by induction in all courts of judicature ; the Minor hath been proved above by the first , second , and fourth arguments .

Answ. It is denied that the Minor hath been proved , or that there is any other Judge besides the sentence of God in holy Scripture , which can so oblige dissenters in those points . Nor do a great part of Papists themselves at this day , namely the French Papists make such account of the Roman church o● Popes judgement , but that they do conceive they may , and sometimes have appealed from them to a general council . Occham held that the Pope was haereticabilis , that is , might be an heretick , some of them being suspected of heresie have been fain to acquit themselves to Emperours by Apologies , some of them have been condemned as hereticks by general councils , Fathers , universitie of Paris , Gerson wrote a book de auferibilitate Papae , and the French churches conceive their churches may be without a Pope and well governed by a Patriarch of their own . It is but a new and late invented doctrine of Jesuits and other flatterers of Popes , that the Roman church , or Pope , or a general council approved by him are infallible , nor is there a word in any of the Fathers cited by H. T. to that purpose .

The words of Irenaeus l. 3. c. 40. are cited maimedly by H. T. they are entirely thus . For where the Church is there is also the spirit , and where the spirit of God is , there is the Church and all grace , but the spirit is truth . By which it may appear , that truth is ascribed to the Church by reason of the spirit , and that by the Church he means not only the Roman , but any where the Spirit of God is : and in the words before he sets down the truth he means , to wit , that if one God and salvation by Christ , which he terms the constant preaching of the Church on every side , and equally persevering having testimony from Prophets , and from Apostles , and from all Disciples . By which it is manifest that he commends no other preaching of the Church then is in the Scriptures , not the definitions of any now existent Church , or after Church without the Scriptures .

The next words of Irenaeus are not ( as here H. T. them● . 1. c. 49. there being not in my book so many chapters ) but l. 4. c. 43. and are alleged by H. T. art. 4. and answered by me before art. 4. sect. 7. The other words of Irenaeus , The Church shall be under no mans judgement , for to the Church all things are known , in which is perfect faith of the Father , and of all the dispensation of Christ , and firme knowledge of the holy Ghost , who teacheth all truth , I finde not any where as he cites them . In l. 1. there are not sixty two chapters , and in l. 4. c. 62. ( which I suspect by his former quotation he would have cited ) the words are thus . After he had said , ch. 53. such a Disciple ( meaning who had read diligently the holy Scripture which is with the Presbyters in the Church , with whom is the Apostolical doctrine ) truely spiritual receiving the Spirit of God , &c. judgeth indeed all men , but he himself is judged of none , in several following chapters sets down various hereticks whom he shall judge , and ch. 62. saith , he shall judge also all those who are without the truth , that is the Church , but he himself is judged of none . For all things constant are known or manifest to him , both the entire faith in one God omnipotent from whom all things are , and in the Son of God Christ Jesus our Lord , and the dispositions of him , by which the Son of God was made man ; the firm sentence which is in the spirit of God , who causeth the acknowledging of truth , who hath expounded the dispositions of the Father and Son according to which he was present with mankind as the Father willeth . By which any one may perceive , that H. T. ( if these were the words he meant ) hath corruptly cited them , mangling them and perverting them to prove an infallibility and supreme judicature of the Roman Church , or Pope for others ; which are meant of every true spiritual Disciple and his private judgement for himself , and in the main points of faith , and according to and by means of the Apostolical doctrine of the Scriptures , which is the very doctrine of Protestants concerning the judgement , which each Christian may have and hath in points of faith , and the certainty of it according to the Scriptures ; which while he follows he is judged of none , nor needs any ones judgement , Popes or others , to define what he shall believe .

The words of Origen , That only is to be believed for truth which in nothing disagreeth from the tradition of the Church . And in our understanding Scripture , &c. We must not believe otherwise than the Church of God hath by succession delivered to us , prefat. in lib. periarch . Whether they be rightly cited I know not , having not the book to examine them by , and by his other citations , as by his citation of Origen , art. 4. where the same words , as I conceive , are cited somewhat otherwise ( which are answered art. 4. sect. 7. before ) the words [ from the Apostles ] being here left out , and his &c. here I suspect fraud . Yet if the words be as he cites them they prove not what he brings them for : there being no restriction to the Roman Church , much lesse to the Pope : nor is the tradition of the Church said to be that which is unwritten , and other then is in the Scriptures , and the faith which by succession the Church is said to deliver , is not meant of any of those points , which the Pope would obtrude on the Church of God , and Protestants reject , but in probability the points of faith which were in the Apostles Creed professed at baptism , which Irenaeus , Origen , Tertullian , &c. were wont to hold forth against the hereticks of their times , and Protestants do still avouch .

The words of Cyprian de unitate Eccles . are not meant of the Roman Church , but of the Church throughout the whole world ( as the words precedent shew ) and the freedom from adultery and the uncorruptednesse , and chastity of the Church cannot be meant of every visible Church as if it were free from error , but of the true Spouse of Christ : nor is the true Spouse of Christ free from error of any sort , but that which is in the main points of faith concerning the Father , Son and holy Spirit , as the words following shew : nor is he said to be separated from the promises of the Father , or not to have God for his Father , who divides from the Church of Rome and hath not it for his mother : nor are all other Churches said to be adulteresses , who hold not with the now Roman church , but he who divides from the Catholick church , nor hath it for his mother , of whom he had said , Illius faetu●nascimur , illius lacte nutrimur , spiritu ●jus animamur , whence it appears that he meant the church to be his mother , who is born again with the same birth , baptism or faith , nourished by her milk , that is the Word of the Gospel , and animated by the same Spirit . And of this it is granted , that whoever is so severed from the church of Christ ; that is the multitude or number of believers throughout the world , who professe and are baptized into the common faith , and are nourished by the same Gospel , and quickned by the same Spirit , they are divided from God , and have not him for their Father . But this proves not that he that is divided from the now Roman church is divided from God . But there are other words of Cyprian cited by him as found Epist. 55. in mine edition at Bafil 1558. l. 1. Epist. 3. as Bellar. also cites them l. 4. de Romano pontifice c. 4. which are thus set down by H. T. To Peters chair and the principal church , infidelity or false faith cannot have access : in which he would insinuate , 1. That the Roman church is the principal church . 2. That by reason of Peters chair there , no error in faith could come to that church . But the words being rightly and fully set down , and the Epistle being read throughout , it will appear that Cyprian had no such meaning as this Author would put upon him . The words are these . After these things ( which he had related before concerning the crimes of some excluded by him out of the church of Carthage ) as yet over and above , a false Bishop being constituted for themselves by hereticks , they dare saile and bring letters from Schismaticks and profane persons to Peters chair and the principal church , from whence sacerdotal unity arose , and not think them to be Romans , whose faith the Apostle declaring is praised , to whom perfidiousness cannot have accesse . I● which I grant the Roman church is called the principal church from whence sacerdotal unity did arise , and the See of Rome Peters chair : the reason of which speech is plainly set down by Cyprian himself in his book de simplicitate Pr●latorum , or de unitate Eccle●●ae in these words . The Lord speaketh to Peter , I , saith he , say to thee , that thou art Peter , and upon this rock I will build my church , and the gates of hell shall not overcome it . I will give to thee the keys of the Kingdom of heaven , and what things thou shalt binde upon earth shall be bound also in the heavens , and what things thou shalt loose upon earth shall be also loosed in heaven . And to the same after his resurrection , he saith , Feed my sheep . And although to all the Apostles after his resurrection he bestowed equal power , and saith , As my Father sent me I also send you , receive the holy Ghost : if ye remit sins to any , they shall be remitted to him , if ye ●old them to any , they shall be held : yet that he might manifest unity he hath disposed by his authority the rise of the same unity beginning from one . Verily the other Apostles were also that which Peter was , endued with equal allotment of honour and power , but the beginning comes from unity , that the church may be shewed to be one . And a little after , which unity we ought firmly to hold , and vindicate , chiefly Bishops who are President in the church , that we may prove also Bishoprick it self to be one and undivided . Let no man deceive the fraternity with a lye , let no man corrupt the truth of faith with perfidious prevarication . Bishoprick is one of which by each entirely a part is held . By which words it is manifest , that Cyprian made the Roman church the principal church , not because the Bishop of Rome was above any other in honour and power , or that Peters chair was more infallible than other Apostles chairs ; or that a supremacy over the whole church did belong to the Pope of Rome ( for he expressely saith , that the other Apostles were the same that Peter was , that they were endued with equal allotment or fellowship of honour and power , and that in solidum , wholly and entirely ( that is as much one as another ) each Bishop held his part in the one Bishoprick : ) but because he made the unity of Episcopacy to have its original from Christs grant to Peter , Matth. 16. 18. that all Bishops might be as one , none arrogating more to himself than another . And that this was Cyprians minde , appears , 1. By the words in his Epistle to Pope Cornelius presently after the words which H. T. cites : where against the practise of those that sailed to Rome to bring thither letters of complaint against Cyprian , he saith , But what cause is there of their going and declaring their making a false Bishop against the Bishops ? For either that pleaseth then which they have done , and they persevere in their wickedness , or if it displeaseth them and they recede , they know whither they should return . For s●●h it is decreed by all us , and it is ●qual alike and just that every ones cause should be there heard , where the crime is admitted , and to several Pastors a portion of the flock is ascribed , which each Pastor should rule and govern , being to give account to the Lord of his own act ; it is meet verily , that thos● over whom we are president should not run about , nor break the cohering concord of Bishops by their subdolous and fallacious rashness , but there plead their cause where they may have both accusers , and witnesses of their own crime , unless to a few desperate and w●etched persons the authority of the Bishops setled in Africa seem less , who have already judged of them , and by the weight of their judgement have damned their conscience bound with the many snares of their sins . Which words shew that Cyprian denied the authority of the Bishops of Africa to he less th●n the Bishop of Rome , and that persons should appeal from them to Rome ; but asserts , that they ought to stand to the judgement of their own Bishops , and that a portion of the flock is given to each Pastor , which he ought to rule and govern , and thereof must give account to the Lord , not the whole to any one , no not to the Bishop of Rome ; and therefore he ought not to receive the letters and complaint of the divided party from Cyprian , nor to take on him to ju●ge their cause , but to remit them to their own Bishops . 2. It appears by the fact of Cypri●n , who opposed St●phen Bishop of Rome in the point of rebaptizing the baptized by hereticks ( as his Epistle to Pompeius shews ) and joyned with Firmi●●anus and other Bishops of Cappadocia , Cilicia and Galatia excommunicated by Pope Stephen , and so involved in the same censure , in which state he died without repentance for ought is known , and therefore conceived not the Pope infallible , or his judge or himself subject to him : but counted Stephen an usurper over his brethren by reason of his imposing his decree on others , and censure of dissenters . And for the words in the Epistle to Cornelius they are not as H. T. cites them , To Peters chair and the principal Church , infidelity or false faith cannot have access : But to the Romans , meaning not only the Bishop , but the rest of the church , and by perfidia there is meant not any infidelity or false faith whatsoever , but those perfidious persons and their treacherous action in breaking from Cyprian : nor doth he say that perfidiousness could have access at no time , but not at that time , which he ascribes , not to the priviledge of the place , but their constancy in the faith heretofore praised by Paul , and to the providence of Cornelius their Bishop , and their own vigilancy , as the words in the end of the Epistle shew , Although I know there your fraternity , to wit , being fenced by your Providence , and also wary enough , by their own vigilancy , cannot be taken with the poysons of hereticks , nor deceived , and that so much the magisteries and divine precepts prevail with them , as the fear of God is in them , yet our over abundance of carefulness or charity hath perswaded us to write these things to you , being indeed not altogether out of fear of Cornelius , of whom he takes notice in the beginning of the Epistle . Marvailing enough , when he observed by his letter that he was somewhat moved by the threats and terrors of them that came , and therefore doth earnestly press him to take courage and to withstand them . Which being rightly understood , the speeches of Cyprian concerning the Roman constancy and the inaccessibleness of perfidiousness to them , appear only expressions of his confidence and good hopes , not of any certainty that it would be so , much less of any infallibility of their Bishop or church ; and this he did to engage them to withstand the schismaticks , it being a great argument with persons to be constant to those who express their confiding in them and their expectation thereof . And therefore he would have his Epistle read to the most flourishing Clergy there presiding with Cornelius , and the most holy and most ample common people or Laity , that if any contagion of poysoned speech and pestiferous sowing had crept in , it might be all put off from the ears and breasts of the brethren , and the entire and sincere love of good men might be cleansed from all filth of heretical detraction : which shews that he conceived them liable to such contagion and pollution , and that he was not certain that they were then altogether free . All these things being considered , it will appear that these passages of Cyprian are so far from proving the infallibility and supreme judicature and supremacy of the Pope and church of Rome , which H. T. asserts , that they prove the contrary .

The words of Lactantius l. 3. c. ult . that it is only the Catholick Church that hath the true worship of God , this is the well-spring of truth , the dwelling place of faith , &c. are true , but nothing to the purpose , it being a meer dream that the Rom●n and Catholick church are the same ; nor if they were , do they prove infallibility in all definitions of faith , or supreme judicature in controversies of faith , but the enjoying for themselves the true worship , truth and faith . The words of Cyril of Jerusalem , that the Roman faith commanded by the Apostles cannot be changed , l. 3. c. 4 in apolog. cont. Ruffinum , we subscribe to , who profess our ready reception of what faith the Apostles commanded . The words of Vincentius Lyrinensis adv. hares . c. 41. are thus ( not as H. T. cites them ) In the antiquity of the Church two things are vehemently and studiously to be observed , unto which they ought altogether to stick who will not be hereticks ; the first if any thing were anciently decreed by the authority of an universal council from all the Priests of the Catholick Church : which is nothing to the later councils approved by the Pope , nor doth prove that the ancient councils were infallible , much lesse that the church or Pope of Rome are infallible . Nor are the words of Augustin ( which I finde not l. 4. de bapt. c. 4 ) I know by Divine revelation that the spirit of truth teacheth it all truth , if they be as H. T. cites them , for his purpose . For if by [ it ] he means the church , it follows not he means the Roman church , and if the spirit teach it all truth , it cannot be meant of all truth simply , nor at all times . But I finde these words l. 4. de bapt. contra Donat. c. 5. In vain some , when they are overcome by reason , object to us custome , as if custome were greater then truth , or that were not to be followed in spirituals which is to the better revealed by the holy Spirit . This is plainly true that reason and truth is to be put before custome . The words of Augustin , epist. 118. c. 5. are not fully set down by H. T. They are thus , If the authority of divine Scripture prescribe which of these ( speaking about offering and fasting ) is to be don● , it is not to be doubted that that is to be done which we read . In like manner also if any of these things the whole Church through the world doth frequent . For to dispute whether we are so to do is of most insolent madness . Where , 1. He means it of rites not determined in Scripture , not in points of faith . 2. Neither doth he count it madness to dispute against the use of the Roman church ; yea he makes it a rule which he had from Ambrose to fast as they did at Millan when he was there , and as they did at Rome when he was there , Epist. 86. ad Casul . no nor to dispute against the whole church of one age , but against the whole church in every age .

Other words of August . cont. epist. fundam . c. 5. are brought by H. T. and urged often by Romanists for the asserting the authority of the church above the Scripture , thus . And I my self would not believe the Gospel , were it not that the authority of the Church moves me to it . But the words are not thus rightly alleged . For , 1. The word [ Catholick ] is left out , which shews he meant it not of the Roman onely , and some words following seem to extend it to the church comprehending the Apostles , or , if restrained to the church of that age , it is meant of those that pre●ched the Gospel to him . 2. The words [ ego vero evangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Eccles●ae commoveret authoritas ] are not well rendred by H. T. as if they did declare his purpose for the future , or that he would not believe the Gospel or any other reason , but the Roman ▪ or present universal churches authority . For this had been an impious speech in this sense , and unfit for a holy man , much more for a Bishop , and contrary to many passages of the same Author ; as particularly , lib. confes. 9. c. 5. in which he saith , that God would not have given so excellent an authority to the Scripture through all lands , unless he would that by it God should be believed . But either he used the Imperfect tense for the Praeterperfect after the African dialect , as he doth in a like speech in his book de beata vita , sic exarsi ut omnes illas vellem anchoras rumpere , nisi me nonnullorum ●ominum existimatio commoveret : where commoveret is used for commovisset , which is the same word here used , and so the sense is , I my self verily had not believed the Gospel unless the authority of the Catholick Church had moved me , noting thereby the occasion of his first believing , not the sole Reason or Motive of his present believing , and to this sense the speeches , Obt●mperavi dicentibus credite Evangelio , ipsi Evangeli● catholicis pr●edicantibus credidi , recte credidisti catholicis laudantibus Evangelium , quibus prae ipientibus Evangelio credidi , per ●os illi credideram ; which express the means by which he believed , and that was not authority of empire in the Church by reason of their infallible Function , and right to define what is to be believed , but the credit of their persons by reason of their holiness , honesty , wisdom , and such other acts of Gods providence mentioned in the Chapter before , which held him in the Church .

3. Or else he speaks upon supposition that the Gospel is not believed by reason of its most sincere wisdom , unto the knowledge of which few spiritual men come in this life , then in that case nothing would move him to believe the Gospel but the authority of the catholick church , unto which sense the words chap. 4. and the series of the Dispute seem to lead , and Bellarmine lib. 4. de notis Eccles. cap. 14. to reconcile Augustine's words in his Dispute against Donatists , that the Church is not demonstrated by Miracles , but by the Scriptures ; and yet against Manichaeus his Epistle of the Foundation , that the Church is demonstrated by Miracles , not by the Scriptures , but the Scriptures by the Church , saith , that he speaks upon supposition , because the Manichees did admit Miracles , but deny the Scriptures , which countenanceth this last sense . Any of these ways which have their probabilities the speech may be right , but not for H. T. his purpose . Certainly they ascribe no infallibility or supreme judicature in controversies of faith to the Roman Pope or Church . If the speech be not understood in the last sense of not believing the Gospel , but by the Churches authority on supposition of the excluding the innate evidence of wisdom and truth therein , or if the second sense hold not , that he speaks of , what he had not done at first conversion , it it certain the first sense must be acknowledged , that he means it of the Catholick Church from the Apostles commending it by the authority of their universal tradition : in other sense , specially that in which the Papists allege it , it were an impious speech , and contrary to many other places in his Works . Sure he that reades his first , second , and third Chapters of his second Book of Baptism against Donatists , will finde him after Cyprian fully against the ascribing to any Bishop on earth supreme judicature over other Bishops , or making any Church or Council infallible ; but asserting that the former fullest general councils may be mended by the later , and that there is no determination of any Pope , or Council , or Church to be rested on as infallible in points of faith , but onely the holy Scripture .

After all this empty scribling of H. T. he yet adds , I now resume the pri●cipal Argument , and retort it thus upon our adversaries , The Catholick Church is infallible in all her Proposals and Definitions of Fai●h . But the Protestant Church ( and the like of all other Sectaries ) is not infallible in her Proposals or Definitions of Faith , therefore the Protestant Church is not the Catholick Church . The Major hath been fully proved before . The Minor must be granted by our Adversaries , because they have no other way to excuse themselves from being Heretick● in the revolt from our Church , but by falsly pretending the whole Church errs in Faith , and taught Idolatry and Superstition for nine or ten hundred years together , till they began their blessed Reformation : a most blasphemous evasion as hath been proved before ) by which they have excluded themselves from all possible assurance of true faith or salvation ; and therefore to arrogate infallibility to themselves , which they deny to the whole Church , were a most frontless impudence . And then he adds his Note , whom he means by his infallible Church , which is set down in the first Section of the Answer to this Article .

Answ. 1. Understanding by [ the Protestant Church ] that Church which hath been since the year 1517. termed Protestants from the protesting against the Decree made at Spires , Anno 1529. ( as Sleidan lib. 6. Com. reports ) the Conclusion is granted : we yield the Protestant Church or Churches are not the Catholick Church , but Members of it , conceiving it would be indeed to hold the Errour of Donatists , if they should appropriate the Title of the Catholick Church to themselves , or count all out of it that are not of that party , as the Romanists do , who are in this Successours to the Donatists . But if by [ the Protestant Church ] be meant the whole number of them , who held the same Faith in the Fundamentals , which now the Protestants hold , so it is the Catholick Church . 2. We deny that the Protestants are justly termed Sectaries , meaning by [ Sectaries ] a party which hath departed from the primitive Christian faith , or doth separate from the universal Church as it is or was at any time in its integrity . 3. We deny the Major to have been proved , understanding it of the universal Church of this or any Ages in which the Apostles were not , and did not concur in the Proposals and Definitions of Faith . 4. We grant the Minor , but to the proof of it , we say it is utterly false , that we have no other way to acquit our selves from Heresie , than by pretending the whole Church erred in Faith , and taught Idolatry and Superstition for nine or ten hundred years together till the Reformation begun , 1517. yea , we say , that the Errours in Faith , the Idolatry and Superstition we now accuse the Roman Church of , ● were many of them later than the time of Gregory the great , even in the Roman Church , and were opposed more or less , at least some of them , by a considerable party of the Church of Christ , who were far better Christians than the Popes or Roman Clergy , which condemned and persecuted them as Hereticks . From which crime we are able to acquit our selves other ways than H. T. saith we can , chiefly by shewing the agreement of our Doctrine with the holy Scripture and first Churches after Christ's Ascension , and the Orthodox Teachers in them , as will appear in answer to his ninth Article . It is a meer frontless impudence in him to charge us with any blasphemous evasion or excluding our selves from all possible assurance of faith or salvation , and to arrogate to himself as if he had proved either . The Reformation which was begun 1517. by Luther , and after by Zuinglius and others continued , hath been blessed by God , notwithstanding the Persecutions of the Papal party , and the Differences among Protestants . And the Reformation sought in England since 1641. hath been blessed , notwithstanding the Troubles and Differences fomented by the Popish and Prelatical parties , as the Preaching of the Gospel by the Apostles and first Preachers was , notwithstanding the Persecutions , Heresies , and Schisms that followed it . Notwithstanding what H. T. or any other Romanist have said , the Roman Church and Pope have not proved infallible , but may be proved , and have been , false and heretical , which is in part proved by the Objections following .

SECT. VII .

The Objections from Scripture and Reason against the infallibility which H. T. ascribes to the Church are made good against his Answers .

H. T. saith thus , Objections from Scripture and Reason solved . Object . All the Israelites adored the golden ●alf , therefore the whole Church erred . Answ. Moses and the Levites did not , who were many thousands , Exod. 32. Numb 3. 39. therefore both those Propositions are false .

TO which I reply , that whereas the Romanists do allege to prove an universal Bishop over the whole Church , who by himself or with a Council is an infallible Judge of controversies of faith , Gods ordinance of one high Priest in Israel , to whose judgement all must stand , Deut. 17. as Bellarmine lib. 3. de verbo Dei , cap. 4. &c. doeth , this Argument is retorted thus , If Aaron and the People of Israel were not infallible , then if there were such an universal Bishop over Christians as there was over the Israelites , and such a Council as the Jewish Synedrium , which were to be Judge of controversies , as Romanists would have , yet they might be fallible , sith the Jewish high Priest and Council who were to be Judge of controversies were not infallible , though they were as much privileged by Papists own arguings , who infer their sovereign infallible Judicature of controversies , which they ascribe to the Pope and his Council from the Jewish high Priest and his Council . But Aaron and the Jewish Council and Church were not infallible ; for Aaron and the Council and Church of the Jews did erre , as is manifest by the making the golden Calf , and the peoples motion and concurrence thereto . Now though Moses and the Levites did not erre , yet the high Priest and the People did , from whose privilege , and not from Moses the civil Magistrate , the infallible judicature of the Pope as universal Bishop , and the Roman Church Catholick is fetcht , and therefore the Answer avoids not the Objection .

H. T. adds , Object . The Jews Council ●rred in condemning Christ . Answ . No wonder it was not perfectly oecumenical ; for Christ himself was then Head of the Church on earth , and the highest Authority was in him , not in the Jews Council ; and if the Jews Church could erre , it doth not follow , that the Church of Christ can ; for it was built ( as St. Paul saith ) on better Promises .

I reply , 1. This Answer which makes that Council not perfectly o●cumenical , and therefore no wonder it erred , plainly intimates , that if a Council be nor perfectly oecumenical , though it would be otherwise infallible , yet in that case it may erre . Whence it will follow , unless the Papists can prove their Councils , which they say are approved by the Pope to be perfectly oecumenical , that is , called out of the whole World , they are not infallible . Now certain it is , that neither the Trent , nor the Lateran Councils , nor those of Constance , Basil , Florence , nor any other Council for a thousand years last past have been so called : yea , sometimes one party hath kept a Council in opposition to another , and Pope against Pope . And from the Trent Council , to which they adhere , not onely the Greek , and Asiatick , and African Churches were wholly absent , but also the French for a time , and the Council consisted in effect of none but Italians , and the Popes Hirelings , some of whom were onely titular Bishops , having never been at the places whereof they carried the Titles , and these by the plurality of Voices served the Popes ends , but in nothing either seriously sought the truth , or reformation of corruption , as the History of the Council of Trent written by that intelligent man Frier Paul of V●nice hath cleared to the World . By which , were it not that Papists are a sort of men that hood-wink themselves , they might see how meer a cheat that Council was , and how justly it was refused by the French Papists themselves unto this day . 2 Though Christ were then Head of the Church , yet he did not exercise Jurisdiction among the Jews , not act but as Prophet to his Disciples , he did not deny subjection to the Priests , he was circumcised the eighth day , as subject to the Law of Moses , presented at the Temple with an Offering , went up to the Feasts , kept the Passover , denied not the Authority of the high Priest , yea , directed the Leper to offer to the Priest for his cleansing , as Moses bade him , and John notes that the high Priest in that he was high Priest that year prophesied of Christ's death , John 11. 51. which are sufficient proofs , that if there were a Privilege of Infallibility in the high Priest and Council of the Jews it was not taken away by Christ's being on earth . But sure then they did erre , and therefore were not at all infallible in their ordinary determinations . 3. It follows , if the Jews Church could erre notwithstanding those passages in the Old Testament which the Papists bring for the Popes and Roman Churches infallibility from their infallibility , then the Popes and Roman Churches infallibility is not well proved thence . 4. St. Paul doth not say , The Church of Christ was built on better Promises , than the Church of the Jews , but that the second Covenant was made a Law on better Promises than the first , is said , Heb. 8. 6. But those Promises are set down , vers. 10 , 11 , 12. of that Chapter , of which there is none concerning any , much less a greater degree of infallibility in any chief Bishop on earth , oecumenical Council or Church of Christians above the Jewish high Priest and Council , and therefore this allegation doth no whit infringe the Objection .

H. T. adds , Object . St. Peter erred in faith when St. Paul contradicted him to the face . Answ. No , it was onely in a matter of fact or conversation , according to Tertullian , lib. praescript . cap. 23. by withdrawing himself and refusing to eat with the Gentiles for fear of the Jews , Gal. 2. 12.

I reply , 'T is true , Tertullian saith , that Peter 's fact was conversationis vitium non praedicationis , a vice of his conversation not of his Preaching , and he shews wherein , that he preached not another God , or Christ , or ●ope . But this doth not shew that Peter erred not at all in any point of faith , nor that Tertullian thought so : yea the very words of Paul , Gal. 2. 15. that he did not walk uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel shew , that his practise did infer an opinion contrary to the truth of the Gospel , and the words [ Why compe●lest thou the Gentiles to Judaize ? ] which could be no otherwise than by suggesting to them that opinion that they must do so , shew , he taught the Gentiles an Errour in a point of Faith contrary to the Decree of the Council , Acts 15.

It follows , Object . Christ blamed the incredulity of his Disciples in not believing his Resurrection , St. Mark 16. 14. Answ . He onely blamed their slowness in believing , not any errour in faith , or loss of faith in them , seeing they had it not before , for they understood not what Christ had said to them of it as appears St. Luke 18. & 1 St. John 20. they did not know all points of faith at once , but by degrees .

I reply , the Question now is of Infallibility not of Apostasie , now it is certain they were not infallible , if they did actually erre , and it is certain they did erre , who did not believe Christ to have been risen from the dead , which was sure an errour in a point of faith , and so much the greater in that it was foretold by Christ himself that it should be , and told by Women , that it was so , and of this number Peter was one after he was termed Peter , and according to the Romanist's Doctrine had been made Prince of the Apostles , and chief Pastour of the universal Church . Now if Peter did erre then in faith , much more may the Popes of Rome , who pretend to be his Successours , and to derive their Privileges from his grant , and consequently cannot pretend to any more than he had .

Again , Object . Every man is a Liar . Answ. In his own particular be it so , yet the holy Ghost can and will teach the Church all truth , he is no friend to truth that contradicts it : and albeit man of himself may erre , yet by the holy Ghost he may be guided so that ●e erre not .

I reply , The words that make every man a Liar do speak this of man in contradistinction to God's being true , and thereby shew that this is made God's Prerogative to be true without any errour , and that no meer man is such , and therefore not infallible , and consequently neither Roman Bishop , nor Council , nor Church infallible : nor doth the Answer avoid it . For if they be every one a Liar in his own particular , they must be so in a community or Council , as if each person in his own particular be blinde the whole company must needs be so too . I grant , the holy Ghost can and will teach the Church of Christ ( meaning the Church of the Elect ) all truth necessary to their salvation , and he is no friend to truth that contradicts it : but that he will teach any or all the visible Churches , or their Bishops , and Teachers , or any one Bishop , all truth in any point controverted , so as that they shall be infallible Judges in determining controversies of faith , is more than yet is proved by H. T. or any other . And if man may of himself erre , though he may by the holy Ghost be guided so that he erre not , then unless it may be known that in this or that Definition of Faith he is so guided by the holy Ghost , no man can rest upon his Definition as infallible . But it is not certain that either a Council or Pope , who are confessedly fallible of themselves , and therefore do implore the holy Ghost's help , as knowing they may erre , are guided by the holy Ghost that they may not erre , but by examining their Definitions by the holy Scripture . For there is no other way to know they have not erred , and consequently such a not erring being uncertain their Definitions can at no time without proof from Scripture ( which each person is to try for himself ) be a sufficient assurance to build a firm Faith upon , which is confirmed by the next Objection .

Object . Try all things , hold fast that which is good , 1 Thess. 5. Believe not every spirit , but try the spirits if they be from God , 1 John 4. Answ . Try them by the Churches authority and Apostolical tradition , that is the Touch-stone , not the dead Letter , humane reason , or the private spirit .

I reply , If Christians are to try all things , then they are to try the Churches authority , and therefore the Churches authority can be no Rule of trial . And indeed the Precept had been ridiculous , if he had bid them try the Churches Definitions whether they were good or no , and the spirits whether of God by the Churches authority , unless the Churches authority were to be tried by something else , which were of it self credible . For when the Church defines , for examples sake Transubstantiation , to try this by the Churches authority is no more but to enquire whether the Church hath defined it , if we must rest on its authority without examining its proof , which would be all one as to say , Try not at all what the church propounds , but believe it . But it is a vain Rule till we know who are the church , by whose authority , and what is their authority by which we must try : especially considering it is not agreed among Papists whether a Pope or council jointly or severally be the church : even H. T. pag. 70. speaks as if he would fain take in all , but is doubtfull on which to fasten . Nor are they agreed whether the Pope or council be superiour , nor which council is approved , which reprobate , nor how far that which is approved is so . The Rule is more uncertain when council is against council and Pope against Pope . The truth is , Papists contrary to the Apostles Precept are not allowed by their Doctrine to try what their church , that is , their Pope and Prelates teach them , but they are bound to believe them with an implicit assent without any trial or explicit knowledge . As for Apostolical tradition , we like it well to try by it , if it be in truth and not in pretence onely Apostolical tradition : in which case we are to take heed that we be not deceived by such sayings as pretend to be from the Apostles , but are not . The Apostle Paul 2 Thess. 2. 2. tells us there were such pretensions in his days , of which he warns Christians , and our Lord Christ commands Revel. 2. 2. the Angel of the Church of Ephesus in that he had tried some that said they were Apostles and were not , and had found them Liars . As for some of those things which Ancients have called Apostolical tradition the Papists themselves do reject them , as the opinion of the Millenaries , the keeping of Easter , as the Quartodeciman held , the giving the communion to Infants , and many more ; and therefore all Apostolical traditions so termed cannot be the Rule of trial ; nor can they give us any sure Notes by which we may distinguish genuine Apostolical tradition unwritten from them that are supposititious . It is true , the oral tradition of the Apostles , while they lived , and there was access to them might be fit to be a means to try spirits by : but the relation of Irenaeus lib. 2. adv. haeres . cap. 39. about Christ's age , and the censure given of Papias in Eusebius plainly shew how quickly such traditions came to be mistakes : and the very reason of John 1 Epist. 4. 1. doth take us off from trying by such tradition , because of the multitude of deceivers , and therefore requires that such spirits as pretended tradition should be tried by an unerring Rule , which is the holy Scripture .

But H. T. takes up the blasphemous reproach which some impudent railing Papists have heretofore given to the holy Scripture , when it bids us not try by the dead letter , by which he means the Scripture in contradistinction to unwritten tradition . Which sure is not the language of the holy Ghost , but of such impure mouths , as in love to their Romish Idols endeavour to disgrace the holy Scripture . 'T is true the Law ingraven in stone is termed , 2 Cor. 3. 6. the killing letter , yet not of it self , for elsewhere , Act. 7. 38. the law of Moses is termed the living Oracles , but by accident , in that it could not give life , Gal , 3. 21. in that it was weak through the flesh , Rom. 8. 3. it did kill , that is condemn men as guilty of sin , and so accursed by it , Gal. 3. 10. But on the contrary the Word of God is termed living , Heb. 4. 12. the word of life , Phil. 2. 16. And our Lord Christ bids the Jews search the Scriptures , because in them they did think they had eternal life , John 5. 39. and John 20. 31. These things are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God , and believing ye might have life through his name . So that justly may H. T. with such other as before him have done the like , be charged with impiety in his disparagingly terming the holy Scriptures , especially of the New Testament , the dead letter , which Paul calls the word of life .

But it 's likely he meant that the Scriptures cannot hear both parties , and so pronounce sentence in a point of controversie . If this be his meaning he might term the churches sentence printed or written in parchment , and Apostolical tradition unwritten the dead letters , as well as the holy Scriptures . For surely the authority of the church in an Oecumenical council approved by the Pope , suppose the Trent council approved by Pope Pius the fourth , and the Apostolical tradition doth no more hear or speak then the Scripture . And it sure discovers an extream perversness and malignity of spirit in Papists that refuse to be tried by Scripture as being dead , and require a living Judge to end controversies , when the council and Pope and Apostolical tradition they would try by are as much dead as the Scripture : which there is reason to conceive they do as foreseeing that if their proselytes would try their doctrines by the Scripture they could not stand .

As for humane reason no Protestant that I know makes that the rule by which he is to try the spirits , nor his own private spirit , if by it be meant his own councils . But we say that every man is to make use of his own reason or judgement of discretion , and the ability of his own intelligent spirit , as the instrument or means by which he is to try whether that doctrine which is propounded to him be according to holy Scripture , and in this he doth no more then Christ requires , Luke 12. 57. yea , and why even of your selves judge ye not what is right ? without the use of which it is impossible for men to make trial as men . And this the Papists themselves must allow men to do according to their own principles . For how else can they hear and believe the church , if they do not use their reason to know the church , and what it saith : they must make men blocks or brutes if they allow them not the use of reason to try by . When H. T. brings arguments from texts of Scripture , Councils , Fathers , common sense and experience ( as his title page pretends ) would he not have men to use their reason to try whether he do it rightly ? would he have us go to a council approved by the Pope to know whether his arguments be good ? what a meer mockery is this of men to write books , to teach people ; and yet not permit people to use humane reason to try their tenets whether they be according to Scripture , Council , Fathers , common sense and experience , as if we must not only take an O●cumenical council approved by the Pope , but also H. T. and every Popish writer , whose book is licensed to be infallible ? If he write , is it not that we may read , and will he have us read and not judge , and can we judge without humane reason ? But it is the fashion of these men to write and speak in points of controversie , but not to permit their Disciples , unless they judge them firm to them whatever they meet with to the contrary , to examine their adversaries tenents , arguments and answers by reading the Scripture and such impartial writers as would discover their deceit , but either by some device or plain prohibition to deter them from searching after the truth , that they may rest on the Popes and prelates determinations without examining .

H. T. further adds . Obj. The Church may erre at least in points not fundamental . Answ. All that God hath revealed is fundamental , at least for the formal motive of belief , to wit , the Divine authority revealing ( though not always for the matter ) and if it be once sufficiently proposed to us by the Church , as so revealed , we are then bound to believe it , so that their distinction of fundamentals and not fundamentals is idle : Besides if the Church be infallible in fundamentals , then Protestants are Schismaticks at least in revelting from her in points not fundamental , or necessary to salvation , and sin against charity by accusing us of Idolatry .

I reply 1. Sure this exception is idle to argue the distinction of fundamental and not fundamental points of faith , which the users of it take from the matter , according to which he confesseth all is not fundamental that God revealeth to be idle , because all is fundamental which God revealeth at least for the formal motive of belief ; to wit , the divine authority revealing , in respect of which the Authors , who use the distinction , acknowledge all fundamental likewise , as Dr. Potter , Chillingworth and others , who make those articles of faith fundamental , which in respect of the matter are necessary to salvation to be explicitly known and believed by all : nor is it by them denied , but if it be sufficiently proposed to us by the church as so revealed , all that is revealed by God we are then bound to believe , otherwise we should deny Gods infallibility and veracity . But we deny the bare determination of the church , that is a Pope , O●cumenical council , or prelates to be a sufficient proposal without proof from Scripture or other demonstration , that the revelation is divine . 2. It is an idle inference which he makes , that because Protestants grant the church doth not erre in fundamentals ; therefore the Roman church doth not erre or is infallible in fundamentals . For that which we grant of the church is meant of other churches besides the Roman . 3. It is idle that he chargeth Protestants with schism at least in revolting from the church for points not fundamental . For he cannot prove the Protestants did or do revolt from the church , but from the Roman court fashion , nor that they revolted till they were driven out by excommunication and cruel persecution , and could not enjoy communion without yeilding to sin , nor that they revolted at all for those errors , which are about points not fundamental ; but for the errors about points fundamental , to wit , one Mediator , salvation by faith in him , not by our own works , &c. 4. It is idle that he imputes to the Protestants uncharitableness for accusing Papists of Idolatry , when their profession and worship is openly Idolatrous in their adoration of bread , Images , wooden crosses , invocation of Saints deceased , of Angels with other innumerable practises used and maintained by them about crosses , reliques , feasts of Saints , Temples dedicated to them , vows , swearing , Priests of them , of which their own Liturgies , Canons , writers are undoubted witnesses . 5. The framing of the Protestants objection by H. T. against the infallibility of the Pope or his council is idle , sith it is urged by Protestants against them by shewing its errors even in fundamentals , that Popes and councils approved by them have been heretical . 6. His answer is much more idle , in that it is not at all to the argument by him brought , which in form is this . That church which may erre in non-●●ndamentals is no infallible judge of controversies . But the Roman church , whether Pope or council by him approved may erre in non-fundamentals , Ergo the Roman church is no infallible Judge of controversies . Now in his answer , there is neither denial of Major , Minor , nor conclusion , but only a denial of the fit use of one term in the premises against which his own exception is but idle , as hath been shewed , yea and if there be no such distinction of fundamentals and non-fundamentals in points of faith the objection is more strong against them . For then if it be proved that the Roman church errs in points of faith , it errs in fundamentals , if all points of faith be fundamental , which will prove not only the fallibility , but also the nullity of the Roman church : and so H. T. will pull down what he endeavours to build up .

But H. T. goes on thus . Ob. Those things only are fundamental which are absolutely necessary to salvation , and every man is bound explici●ly to know and believe . Answ. If this were true , the Bible or written Word ( which you will have to be the onely rule of faith and Judge of controversies ) were not a fundamental ; for faith depends not essentially on writing , but on hearing : many were good Christians and saved before any of the new Scripture was written or received among them , the first Gospel being not written till seven or eight years after the death of Christ .

I reply , 1. This scribling is idle also , in which that is brought in as Protestants objection against the infallible and supreme judicature of the Roman church in controversies of faith , which is only an explication of one term they use in their dispute against the assertors of it . 2. It is idle that he saith they will have the Bible or written Word to be the only Judge of controversies , when some of them , as Chillingworth whom he after names , Answ. to Char. Maint . part. 1. ch. 2. p. 114. deny it properly to be the Judge of controversies , but make it only the rule of faith , or the rule to judge by , yea p. 75. H. T. himself chargeth this on Chillingworth ( as if he had forgotten what he said , p. 73. ) that right reason is the only Judge of controversies , and others , who term the Bible the Judge of controversies do not make it the only Judge , but the Spirit of God by it , and the teachers of the church and each believer for himself by it . 3 ▪ It is idle again that he makes that an absurdity which they will not own , when Chillingworth Answ. to Char. Maint . part. 1. ch. 2. p. 114. and some others do grant that the Bible or written Word is not a fundamental point of faith in their sence , because if the matter of the Bible should be believed by one that never saw or heard of a Bible , yet he should have a true faith to salvation : And yet they make it necessary to be believed by all to whom it is made known . 4. It is yet more idle , that he gives that for a reason why it should be absurd to say the written Word is not fundamental ; to wit , for faith depends not essentially on writing , but on hearing , which concludes it is not absurd . For if faith depend not essentially on writing , but on hearing , which concludes it is not absurd . For if faith depend not essentially on writing , then is the written Word not fundamental , for that is not fundamental without which faith may be . 5. It is idle which he saith in opposing writing to hearing , whereas faith may be by both , and if he had spoken accurately , he should have said , not by seeing , but by hearing , or not by writing , but by speaking . 6. It is idle also and false , that faith depends essentially on hearing . For then it could never be that deaf men should believe for want of hearing . 7. That which he adds to confirm it is as idle . For though there were good Christians afore the Gospel was written , yet it being written upon supposition there were no other means but writing to beget faith , it would depend essentially on writing . 8. This discourse of H. T. overthrows himself and his party , For if faith depend essentially on hearing , not on writing , then they have not faith who read , except they hear the infallible Judge , whether Pope or council approved by him , nor is the point of faith sufficiently proposed , unlesse it be delivered viva voce , and if so , there is no Papist hath faith , but he onely who hears the Pope speak by word of mouth from his chair , or a council approved by him speak with audible voyce , the reading of the Trent canons , or the Popes Bull is not sufficient to beget faith , much less the hearing a Priest or Prelate tell us their determination . By which it may appear , that if H. T. his dictates hold , then there is neither church nor faith among the greatest part of Papists . 9. All this discourse is idle , because Papists themselves do grant in effect the distinction he excepts against ; and his own words do in a manner confesse it is right , as the objectors explain it , and therefore in this is but a meer humour of quarrelling , as having a minde to say somewhat against Mr. Chillingworth and Dr. Potter , the Lord Falkland and Dr. Hammond , who have fully beaten them out of this their last hold of the infallibility of the Roman church , which they would fain have fortified , being unable to keep the field in the several points of controversie between us and them .

H. T. goes on thus Ob. In Gregory the greats time the discipline and doctrine of the Church was altered and corrupted . Ans. That cannot be , for from Gregory the greats time to this day even the least substantial part of either hath not been lost , or changed as is visible in all the councils , liturgies , and constitutions of the Church .

I reply , this is so notoriouslly false , and the contrary so fully demonstrated even out of the confessions of Popish writers themselves , and in the points of the Popes supremacy , out of Gregory himself , l. 4. Epist. 32 , 34 , 38 , 39. in the point of worshipping of Images in his Epistle to Serenus , and in other points by Bishop Morton in his first book of the Protestants appeal against Brerely his Apology , that were not this Author resolved to out-face the most manifest verities against the now Roman tenents , he would never have vented so grosse a falshood . The very confessions of Popes , the decrees of reformation even in the Trent council prove the contrary to what H. T. saith . Claudius Espentaeus com . in 2 Tim. c. 4. digres. 21. confesseth that toyes and lyes were in almost all their portesses . And if there were no more to prove this Author an egregious lyar ; yet this is enough ( which is apparent to all the world ) that they have had councils opposing councils about the superiority of a Pope above a council since the time of Gregory the great , and even in their Miffals and Bibles many things have been changed and purged , Clemens the eighth hath altered many things in Sixtus the fifth his Bible , and thereby shewed how corruptions have crept into their own authentick translation .

H. T. adds . Object . That which may happen to any one particular man or Church may happen to all : but it may happen to any one particular man or Church to erre in faith , therefore to all . Answ. I distinguish the first proposition , that which may happen to one may happen to all in a divisive sense I grant , in a collective I deny , and granting the second proposition I deny the consequence ; for it proceeds from a divided to a compound sense , and is as equivocal as this . That which may happen to any one egge in the Parish may happen to all . But it may happen to any one egge in the Parish to go into your mouth at once , therefore it may happen to all the eggs in the Parish to go into your mouth at once .

I reply , I know not whose argument this is : Dr. Rainold in his Thesis saith thus , but it may happen to every Church which may happen to any ; certainly what happened to the Church of Jerusalem , which had much more ample promises , then ever the Church of any City . As it is formed by this Author I think the Major is not universally true : but being formed thus , that error which may be in each man and church singly , and it 's not assured shall be removed from them met together , may happen to them so met . But error in faith may be in each man and Church singly , and it 's not assured to be removed from them met together , therefore error in faith may happen to them so met . The Major is I conceive without question . The Minor consists of two parts . 1. That all men and Churches singly or severally may erre in faith , I think will not be denied . That the Popes as private Doctors may erre in faith it 's not denyed , by the stiffest assertors of the Popes infallibility . That any particular Church also , even the Roman , may erre it 's not denied , the infallibility , which H. T. would have to belong to it , is as Catholick , and this must be when the whole Church diffused over the world unanimously teach a point of faith , or it 's representative in a perfectly Oecumenical council called out of the whole world and approved by the Pope 2. That to none of these is such infallibility assured , which is proved in that there is no promise of such infallibility to any of them . The texts urged by H. T. in this article yeild not that promise : nor that text Mat. 18. 20. For , 1. Christ may be in the midst of men , and yet they not infallible . He walks in the midst of the Churches , Revel. 2. 1. yet they might and did erre in faith . So God hath promised inhabitation to every true believer , and walking with them , 2 Cor. 6. 16. and yet they were not infallible . 2. If infallibility were there promised , it was promised to two or three gathered in Christs name , and so to a Church neither collectively nor representatively Catholick . 3. The promise is but conditional upon supposition of being gathered together in Christs name , which whether any council be , it is uncertain to us . As for H. T. his distinction and application they seem to me to savour of unskilfulnesse in the meaning of Logick terms . A proposition is true in a divided sense which is not true in a compound , when the predicate agrees to the subject considered as at different times upon an alteration ; as when it is said , the blind see , the deaf hear , the dumb speak , this is not true in a compound sense , that at the same time that persons are blind , deaf , dumb , they see , hear , speak , but in a divided sense . But the Major proposition as set down in the objection , is understood of the same time without alteration . And so it is not true , that it proceeds from a divided to a compound sense . Nor is there any consequence in the proposition , as he unskilfully speaks , but the proposition is a simple or categorical proposition . As for his similitude of eating eggs they may be kept for his breakfast as now being unseasonable .

But he proceeds . Object . The Apostles were not each of them to depend on the decrees of the Church . Answ. True , the Church was to depend on them as on the first masters and proposers of faith , who had each of them a peculiar prerogative of divine assistance and infallibility in matters of faith , yet were they each consonant to other in all their doctrines of faith , and whatever was taught by any of them was stedfastly believed by all .

I reply , H. T. saith in his Epistle to the reader , that it is agreed by all parties that Christ our Lord hath founded and built a Church in his own blood , which was the onely M●stris of divine faith , and sole repository of all revealed truths at least for an age or two ; which if true , then the Apostles were in that age to depend on their decrees . But here he eats his words , in the Epistle the Church was the sole Mistris of divine faith , here the Church was to depend on the Apostles , as on the first masters and proposers of faith . How these hang together I understand not . That which he saith here of the Apostles is very true understanding by masters , not Lords but teachers . The Church neither now nor in any age was Mistris of faith , it is not the Church in right sense , that is the teacher or propounder of divine truths , but the learner . It is the meer sophistry of Papists to term the Pope and Prelates the Church , and to call a hundred or two of Bishops , some of them meer titulars without any Diocesse , such as never knew what the office of a Bishop was , nor ever preached the Gospel to any people , the Catholick Church . The concession that the Apostles had each of them a peculiar prerogative of divine assistance and infallibility in matters of faith proves , that this was not Peters prerogative , and if it were a peculiar prerogative to each Apostle , then it descends not to any successors , and so by this Authors own words the infallibility of the Pope or council is a meer figment . Nor is infallibility to be sought from any , but Christ and his Apostles doctrin , who do still propound matters of divine faith to us in the holy Scriptures . Nor hath the Church of Rome any more priviledge of keeping or conveying to us the truths revealed by the Apostles then that at Jerusalem , Antioch , Ephesus , Alexandria or any other which the Apostles founded , and therefore Ireneus , Tertullian and such of the Fathers as direct us to repair to the Apostolick Churches for establishment against hereticks direct us to other Churches , where the Apostles preached , besides the Roman .

It is further objected , the Church hath now no new revelations , nor can ●he make now any new points of faith , therefore we are not bound to believe her definitions . H. T. Answers , I grant the antecedent , but deny the consequence , for though she can make no new points , yet she can explicate the old , and render that clear , which was before obscure , and can define against new herefies .

I reply , The grant of the antecedent is sufficient to prove , that if the Church , as it is termed , teach any other points of faith then were revealed to the Apostles , we are not bound to believe her definitions , and consequently she must prove her definitions by Apostolical tradition , and not only say they are Apostolical , ere we are bound to believe them , it being still to be heeded , which Paul saith , Gal. 1. 8. If he or an Angel from heaven , or any man preach ( I may adde or believe ) any other Gospel then what was preached by Paul , and received by the Galatians he is accursed , and consequently each person is to examine and judge for himself whether that which is preached or defined for him to believe by Pope or council agree with the Apostles Gospel or no , and if the Church can onely explicate the old , then an heresie cannot be made by a council , which was not before ; and if Pope John the two and twenteth his tenet condemned in the council of Constance were heresie after the council condemned it , it was so before , contrary to what Bellarmin saith , l. 4. de Rom ▪ pontif . c. 14. and it follows he that can best explicate the old and render it clear which was before obscure , hath the best title to infallibility , and if the Church or Pope have no new revelations , then he must explicate by study , and so not by prerogative of his chair , but by ability in languages , arts , and other knowledge , in which if he have lesse knowledge ( as certainly some if not all the Popes for a thousand years have had , one of them , as Alp●onsus a Castro saith , not understanding Grammer , and one of them being necessitated to substitute another to do divine offices for him , by reason of his ignorance in literature ) there is lesse reason to adhere to their explications then to others who have more skill therein ▪ Arias Montanus , Vatablus and such other learned men are to be relied more upon for explications and definitions in points of faith then the Pope or Bishops , if they be such as were in the Trent council , of whom it is manifest by Frier Pauls history of that council , that there were scarce any of them learned in the Scriptures , especially in the main point of the Gospel concerning justification by faith , then it is unjust to tye men to follow the Fathers , who had lesse skill then others in interpreting Scripture , as the learned of the Roman party do often shew in their writings , then did Innocent the third ill to make a new point of faith in defining transubstantiation , which was but an opinion before , as Scotus and T●nstal have asserted , then it is monstrous tyranny beyond all that ever any tyrants before practised to burn to death men , women , children , old and young , Bishops and Noblemen for not holding it , then are the Pop●s and Popish party guilty of shedding a sea of blood in England , France , Belgia , Germany , Italy , Spain , Poland and elsewhere , for denying transubstantiation , the Popes supremacy , and such other new tenets as Popes have thrust on the Christian Churches , then hath Pope Pius the fourth done wickedly in imposing on men a new Creed , and Popish Doctors do ill in justifying it , and not opposing it . But is not this a mockery to say the Church may not do it , and yet they do it , and H. T. avoucheth it ? what else are their tenents of receiving the eucharist under one kinde , of worshipping images , of purgatory , invocation of Saints , indulgences , service in an unknown tongue , monastick vows with many more but new points of faith ? and is it not all one to make new points of faith , as by authority onely without any agreeablenesse to the meaning of the words , so to explicate the Scriptures , as that they shall be wrested to maintain that which is not there taught , and that condemned as heresie which is not contrary to them ? Rightly said Chillingworth Answ. to Char. Maint . part. 1. ch. 2. num. 1. Tyranny may be established as well by a power of interpreting laws as by making them : and so doth the power of Rome set up the greatest tyranny that ever was in the world by usurping this vast power of being an infallible interpreter of Gods laws ( though in their Prefaces to their corrected editions of their missals , and the vulgar Latin translations of the Bible they confesse they used the help of learned men , and one Pope alter what a former did ) and Judge of controversies from whom none may appeal , and all are bound in conscience to stand to his definitions .

H. T. saith further . Object . The spiritual man judgeth all things , 1 Cor. 2. 15. Answ. By the Rule of Apostolical tradition I grant , by humane reason or the private spirit I deny , and such a spiritual man is in the Church as a part in the whole , not out of it , with Sectaries .

I reply , It is true , the spiritual man judgeth all things by the Rule of Apostolical tradition , I mean that which is truly and confessedly Apostolical in the holy Scriptures , not by that unwritten tradition which Papists falsly call Apostolical . And it is true also that the spiritual man judgeth all things by humane reason not as the rule of faith , but as the Organ or means of discerning , as the buyer judgeth whether he hath measure by the Ell as the rule , and by the eye as the Organ by which he compareth the thing bought and the Ell together . And if by private spirit be meant nothing but his own ability to discern , the spiritual man judgeth by his private spirit , and so doth a Papist , that judgeth by the rule of the Councils definition , and Popes approbation , judge what his Priest suggests to him to be such by humane reason , and his private spirit . Nor can it be otherwise , if the judging be his act , but it should be by humane reason , unless we imagine a man as a man to act without reason . However this is clear by his confession , that a spiritual man is not onely the Pope , or the Catholick Church , but a part in the whole , and that he not onely receives all that the Church propounds , but judgeth , and therefore doth not rest on the judgement of the Church with a blinde assent , and that he is in the Church nevertheless , and this supposeth that a spiritual man is not to presuppose the Church , or Pope , or Prelate , or Priest , infallible , but to examine what they say , and to judge for himself whether they speak right or not .

H. T. proceeds thus . Object . Right reason is the onely Judge of controversies , therefore every mans private reason must be Judge for himself . Answ. The Antecedent I have sufficiently refuted , and I also deny the Consequence , as the most gross and unreasonable Assertion of all others , ( though Mr. Chillingsworth's chief ground ) which appears thus .

I reply , No Protestant that I know saith , Right reason is the onely Judge of controversies , and therefore there was no need of refuting it . Nevertheless in what he hath said before about this point , he hath refuted nothing , except it be a sufficient Refutation to say without any reason or proof for it , that we must not try all things by humane reason or the private spirit , which is a way of re●uting , fit enough for this Scribler , though unfit for a Disputer . 2. Nor do I think any Protestant makes that consequence , which is here set down ; whereas he a●cribes it to Master Chillingworth he had dealt honestly if he had quoted the place , that we might without reading a whole Book have found it . If I mistake not , Master Chillingworth , chap. 2. part . 1. Sect. 104. of his Answer to Charity maintained against Knot , asserting a necessity of a personal Judge in points of controversie concerning the Christian faith , that the Scripture was not , and therefore the church must be it , saith , Scripture is not a Judge of controversies , but a Rule to judge them by , being understood of all those that are possible to be judged by Scripture , and of those that arise among such as believe the Scripture , that it is not necessary that all controversies should be decided , that in doubtfull things there is no necessity they should be determined , but that each should bear with other , and he is safe that useth means to finde the truth though he miss it , that fundamentals are plainly delivered in Scripture , that the m●st unlearned may understand these by the translations of places on no side gainsaid , that each mans own reason is Judge for himself , that there is no such personal Judge appointed by God , as Knot would have , that his Reasons from the necessity of a personal Judge in civil controversies hold not in this matter , that every mans particular reason is that by which he is to judge whether this or that Doctrine be agreeable to Scripture , that even according to the way of the Papists the giving of the Office of Judicature to the Church comes to confer it upon every particular man . For , 1. Before any man believes the Church infallible he must have reason to induce him to believe it so , else why do they set down Arguments to prove it . 2. Supposing they are to be guided by the Church they must use their own particular reason to finde out which is the Church , and to that end Popish Doctors give notes and marks whereby to discern it , which are to no end , if a Christian must not use his reason to judge whether they be right or no. So that in effect this is Mr. Chillingworth 's Argument , as I conceive it , There is neither a necessity of an infallible personal Judge among men to determine all controversies in Religion among Christians , nor is any such appointed by God , but each is to try for himself what is taught , and even by Popish Writers own way he must use his particular reason to discern the validity of their proofs for the Churches infallibility , and which is the Church , which must be his guide by the marks of i● ▪ therefore it must of necessity be yielded , that every mans particular reason must be Judge for himself . Now this which H. T. unskilfully calls the consequence , it being the consequent onely , is no unreasonable much less gross Assertion , and may very well be Mr. Chillingworth 's ground in answering Knot , notwithstanding that which here H. T. produceth to the contrary .

First , saith H. T. As contradicting the Word of God , wherein we are taught , that the things which are of God , no man knows but the Spirit of God , 1 Cor. 2. 11. No man can say Our Lord Jesus ( with true faith ) but in the holy Ghost , 1 Cor. 12. 3. By which grace we are saved through faith , and that not of our selves , for it is the gift of God , Ephes. 2. 8. We are not sufficient to think any good thing our selves as of selves , but our sufficiency is from God , 2 Cor. 3. 5. We must captivate our understanding to the obedience of faith .

I reply , Mr. Chillingworth's tenet being rightly understood contradicts none of these Texts . For , 1. when he saith , Every mans private reason is to judge for himself , he means whether this or that be the meaning of the Scriptures , and whether that which some say is revealed in Scripture be so or not , so that the judging which he asserts is of things revealed by the words wherein it is revealed , not a finding out what is not revealed . But 1 Cor. 2 11. speaks of a knowledge of invention by search into the things without revelation , a knowledge of invention , not of discretion , as the words vers. 10. shew , But God hath revealed them to us by his Spirit , for the Spirit searcheth all things , even the deep things of God . Now Mr. Chillingworth ( so far as I discern ) did never assert , that every mans private reason by its own search could ever finde out the mystery of the Gospel , had not the Spirit revealed them to the Apostles , and they to us , but that each mans private reason since the Apostles have revealed them in their Writings may judge whether that which one Teacher saith is the Apostles meaning , be truer than what another saith , he makes Reason not the Judge of the Spirits revelation , but of mens interpretation and inference . 2 When Mr. Chillingworth makes each particular mans reason or his private spirit , the Judge for himself , he means right reason , not every fancy which hath no proof , and that reason which he calls right reason must be rectified by the Spirit of God and his influx upon the understanding , and so the Text 1 Cor. 12. 3. is not against Mr. Chillingworth . 3. When he means that every private mans reason or private spirit is a Judge to each man , he conceives ( as the matter of his discourse lead him to speak ) this judgement to be onely of the meaning of the speech , wherein the things revealed are made known , whence comes a a speculative notional knowledge , upon which a bare dogmatical faith follows , but he asserted not right reason rectified by common influx of the spirit , which understands onely the true meaning of such a Text or the truth of such a Proposition , to be sufficient without a special work of the Spirit of God enabling a man to see the beauty , worth , goodness of the things thus believed above any other thing propounded to be chosen , to beget an affective practical knowledge , which begets faith of adherence , of which 1 Cor. 12. 3. Ephes 2. 8. 2 Cor. 3. 5. & 10. 5. are to be understood . So that Mr. Chillingworth's Assertion rightly understood doth well consist with these Scriptures , it being no whit contradictory to these speeches , that no man can know by his invention the mystery hid in God but by the revelation of the Spirit , and yet when it is revealed each mans private reason may judge of the meaning of the Scriptures in which it is revealed , and whose Doctrine is most agreeable to those Scriptures , and though no man can fiducially and electively say , Jesus is the Lord but by the holy Ghost , yet without the sanctifying and renewing or indwelling of God's Spirit a person may by his private reason understand the meaning of this speech , Jesus is the Lord , and assent to it upon credible motives with a bare dogmatical faith . And though saving faith be the spetial gift of God to his Elect , yet in working faith God useth mans reason to understand what he is to believe , and to judge it to be true , and as H. T. saith here , p. 77. The discourse and approbation of reason is always a previous and necessary condition to our deliberate and rational acts of faith , and the very acts themselves , are acts of reason . And though we are not of our selves sufficient to think any good thing , yet our selves do think good things , and by reason rectified by God's Spirit do judge them to be good . And though we are to captivate our understanding to the obedience of faith , yet that obedience of faith to which our understanding is captivated is by the assent of the understanding upon the apprehensions which our reason hath of the good of that we assent to , and that which we obey .

But saith H. T. Secondly , because divine revelations are not to be admitted or rejected for their seeming consonancy or repugnance to every mans private reason , but for the authority of the Church proposing as the immediate motive , and the Authority of God revealing as the highest Motive of our Faith into which it is ultimately resolved , nor can any thing be more rational than to captivate and even renounce private reason , where God the Authour of Reason commands it .

I reply , I doubt not but Mr. Chillingworth would have said so too , and have counted it an injury done to him to suggest it ( as H. T. seems to do ) to any as if he meant otherwise , provided that by the authority of the Church proposing be meant , not the pretended infallible authority of the Church or Prelates of it , but either the infallible authority of the Primitive Church comprehending the Apostles , or the probable and credible authority of the present Church or Teachers in it . But it is likely H. T. meant it of the infallible authority of the present Church or Prelates of it , which is not yet proved , and till it be Mr. Chillingworth's Assertion is not overthrown .

H. T. adds , Thirdly , because if every mans private reason is to judge for himself in matters of Religion , then all the Heresies that ever yet were in the World were good and sound Doctrines ; for there was never any Sect of Hereticks who did not pretend both to Reason and Scripture for their Tenets ( how damnable soever ) and some of them such as were unaswerable by humane reason , setting aside the Churches authority and Apostolical tradition : for who can prove by private reason or by all the reason of man against the Arians , that a spiritual and indivisible substance ( such as God is ) could beget a natural Son of himself without a Mother ? or against the Sabellians and Trinitarians that the same indivisible essence or divine nature can be at once in three distinct persons , the Father , the Son , and the Holy Ghost ? or against Nestor and Eutiches , that one person can subsist in two different natures , the Divine and Humane in Christ , which notwithstanding are high Fundamentals in Christianity . In all these and many others private reason must either bend the knee and be captivate to faith , or become Atheism .

I reply , I conceive Mr. Chillingworth would have said so too , to wit , that private reason must bend the knee , and be captivate to faith in points revealed , though it cannot comprehend how thing revealed should be so , and yet his Assertion hold , that each ones private reason is to judge these to be matters of faith ; and it will judge them to be so by the evidence it hath , that these are divine revelations , which right reason knows to be so from the agreement with the Scriptures without the present or late Churches authority or unwritten traditions , though termed Apostolical . And those Tenents which a private mans reason findes to be agreeable to holy Scripture , though the whole Church of this or former Ages since the Apostles days should judge them Heresie , and the Nicene or any other Council condemn them , yet is that person to hold them as truth , provided he do use his reason aright to discover the truth . And though it be that Councils may be and have been usefull , when good choice hath been made of persons and undue practises to mis-lead and over-aw them have been removed , yet as Nazianzen in his five and fiftieth Epistle ad Procopium complained , that he knew no good issue of them , so he that shall examine the cariage of things in Councils , even the best of them since the Apostles days will finde reason not to take any thing from them on trust meerly by reason of their authority , and for the Councils which have been above a thousand years by reason of the activity and prevalency of Factions , and the unlearnedness of most of the Bishops in them will find more reason to be jealous of what Councils have determined , them to acquiesce in them . Nor will it follow , that if this judgement be allowed to every private man , then all or any Heresies whatsoever have been good and sound Doctrine , but that those who have pretended Reason and Scripture have abused both . Nor is H. T. his Reason of force , because Hereticks pretend to reason and Scripture , therefore every one is not to judge for himself , and all Heresies were sound Doctrine , any more than than this , cavillers pretend Law and Reason , therefore Judges that use their knowledge in the Law , and their Reason in passing Sentence do justifie cavillers , or determin no better then cavillers . Were the Churches authority infallible , hereticks might and did pretend to it's authority , and Apostolick tradition , and therefore notwithstanding these , yet heresie may be taken for sound doctrine as well as if private reason be made a Judge for each ones self : yea many heresies have alledged unwritten tradition , and have had some council or other perhaps more and more numerous to patronize them then the Orthodox : so that I may say , setting aside the holy Scripture ( which is now the rule by which to determine what is error , what not ) neither the Churches authority , nor unwritten tradition can prove a point to be heresie or extirpate it , but rather propagate and establish error , as by experience is manifest , there being never more heresies established and propagated by any one , or more private mens following their reason , then have been by the Popes and Councils supposed to be Oecumenical and infallible , nor is there any greater cause of erring then the confidence of infallibility , nor any error so fast rooted as that which is decreed by men that will confesse no error . As for those heresies which he reckons as unanswerable by humane reason , if he mean they are unanswerable by humane reason , how or in what manner the things opposed by them are , it is granted ; but of this Mr. Chillingworth doth not make humane reason Judge : if any humane reason cannot comprehend how a thing should be , nor can answer all objections , yet if it judge that God hath revealed it is so , it is to believe it , even as Mary was to believe her having a son though she knew not how , Luk. 1. 34. That which each mans reason is to judge , is not how a thing can be which God hath revealed is or shall be , but whether it be so revealed , and this he is to do not by a blind assent to what the Church or his teachers say , but by searching ( as the Beraeans did Act. 17. 11. with Gods approbation even when Paul preached to them ) the Scriptures whether they say right . And if the Scripture say the contrary to what those named hereticks say , then are their tenents to be rejected , of which each persons reason is to judge for himself he being to be saved or damned according to his own faith : if not , the determination of councils against it is not to be received . And this manner of judging by reason , will neither promote herefie , nor Atheism , but on the contrary , if the Popes , Councils , Churches determination be counted infallible , it will perpetuate an error if once received , as too much woful experience shews in the Roman Papacy , wherein the error of transubstantiation though it be such as is so contrary to Scripture , reason , sense , Fathers , that a man unprejudiced would think them meer mad men , or phrenetick persons who hold it , yet it is by Papists maintained ( I dare hardly say , by the learned believed ) most obstinately and furiously to this day .

Finally , saith H. T. because if private reason were the onely Judge of controversies , it would evidently follow the general councils of all former ages ( which have commanded all persons under pain of damnation to obey their definitions and submit to their decrees ) were the most tyrannical and unjust assemblies that ever were , in usurping such a power over mens consciences , and consequently , that there neither is nor ever was any such thing on earth as a Church ( or obliging guide in matters of faith ) and Church Government ,

I reply , though Mr. Chillingworth say not private reason to be the onely Judge of controversies , nor denies the Church or Council to be Judge of controversies , but only the infallibility of them ; yet , if he did say either , neither of these things would follow which H. T. makes consequent thereon . For notwithstanding such saying he might deem councils to have followed Scripture , and therefore not unjust in those commands , and that there was a Church and Church government obliging men in matters of faith though not by vertue of their own authority , yet by vertue of Gods revelation in the holy Scriptures . Neverthelesse ( if I may be allowed to speak my judgement freely ) I do think that if not all , yet most of the Councils termed general have been for more then one hundred years too unjust and tyrannical in their commands , usurping the words of the Synod at Jerusalem , Act. 15. 28. too arrogantly , as if their authority were equal to the Apostles , and imposing on mens consciences burdens too intolerable , and that this hath been a most pernicious engine of Satan to cause divisions and mischiefs in the Church of Christ . And certainly if any have followed humane reason and a private spirit in deciding controversies of faith , and judging matters of religion they have been Popes , and the Councils approved by Popes , who do almost in every thing , in some things expressely , forsake the Scripture , and adhere to their own reason in their Canons and Decrees : and Papists who receive their determinations do forsake the guidance of Gods Spirit and follow humane reason and a private spirit .

H. T , saith further . Ob. Your therefore believe the Church to be infallible ▪ and whatever else you believe , because you judge it reasonable to believe it , and your very act of faith it self is an act of reason : therefore reason is the only Judge of controversies . Answ. The discourse and approbation of reason is alwayes a previous and necessary condition to our deliberate and rational acts of faith , and the very acts themselves are acts of reason , not discoursing but simply assenting : All this I grant , yes I deny your consequence , because our acts of faith are not ultimately resolved into private reason ( which faith often is inforced to captivate ) but into the authority of God revealing , and the Church proposing . I believe it ( saith Tertullian ) because it is impossible ( viz. to humane reason . )

I reply , 1. Chillingworth makes not reason the only Judge of controversies , nor any Protestant , therefore the conclusion is ill fathered on them . 2. The reason of H. T. his denial of the consequence is insufficient . For it supposeth the consequence to imply , that our acts of faith are ultimately resolved into private reason , and this private reason judging that onely to be true , of which it conceives how it is possible . But the truth is , they that make reason the Judge of controversies neither resolve ultimately their acts of faith into private reason , neither do they conceive they have reason to believe onely what they conceive how it is possible to humane reason , but resolve their faith into Gods authority as the formal and ultimate reason of their believing , and make their reason onely the means or instrument by which they finde that God hath revealed that which they believe , not excluding their teachers credit , and Churches example as a fit motive to hearken to it as a thing credible . Which opinion is confirmed by this authors own words , making faith an act of reason , and discourse and approbation of reason alwayes a previous and necessary condition to it , and therefore in all acts of faith , even when it rests on the Churches Authority , yet eachmans private reason is the Judge for himself discerning in controversies why he is to believe one and not another ; all the difference is , the Papist thinks he hath reason to believe transubstantiation , Popes supremacy , &c. because he takes the Church of Rome or Pope to be infallible . The Protestant doth not believe them , because the Scripture doth not say thus , which alone he takes for an infallible rule to judge by in such controversies . Whether Papists faith be ultimately resolved into the Authority of God revealing hath been before considered a little and will more in that which follows . To Tertullians words I can return no answer till I know where to finde them . As they are here cited they seem nor right .

Yet again saith H. T. Ob. There is no Apostolical tradition for the Churches infallibility . Answ. Yes a more universal one , then for the Canon of the Scripture it self : ( which notwithstanding you believe on that score if at all ) For there is not any one book either of the old or new Testament , which hath not been rejected by some heretick or other : if therefore it be a sufficient proof of an universal tradition for the whole Canon of Scripture , that some one or two general Councils have set down the number and names of all the books of Scripture , though not without some variety , and that the Fathers have given testimony to them , some to some books , some to others , but few to all ; and that the Church in after ages hath accepted them for such , how much more universal is the tradition for the Churches infallibility , which is virtually decided and attested by the Anathema's and definitions of all the general Councils that ever were , condemning all who did not humbly obey , and subscribe to them , every decision being attested by all the Fathers ( no one contradicting or condemning the stile ) and most unanimously accepted by the whole Church of after ages .

I reply , the speech of H. T. here , that there is a more universal Apostolical tradition for the Churches , that is not only the Church diffused over all the world unanimously teaching , but also the Church represented in a Council perfectly Oecumenical ( that is to say , call'd out of the whole world and approved by the Pope ) it's infallibility in definitions of faith then for the Canon of the Scriptures it self , is so monstrously false , and so pernicious , as tending to the undermining of the fabrick of Christian Religion , that it shews an impudent face and an impious heart in the assertor . For , 1. The tradition of the Canon of the old Testament is by the whole Nation of the Jews from Moses to Christ , and from Christ and his Apostles , who have testified that to them were committed the Oracles of God , Rom. 3. 1 , 2. and this witnessed by the Jews unto the death , and by the complement and events verifying it . And though it be , that some hereticks have been adversaries to the Law and Prophets , yet scarce any but such as have been little better then phrenetick , have denied it to be divine , however they have conceived them not binding . And for the Canon of the new Testament , though some parts have been a little while somewhat doubted of in the second and third ages by some few , yet the rest have had universal and undoubted tradition from the Apostles and Evangelists , and primitive teachers , who witnessed the truth of the doctrine by many evident undeniable divine miracles , and by their martyrdome , by which also in after ages many of the Fathers and other Christians gave testimony to it , and since the Churches Greek and Latin , Protestant and Popish Heretical and Orthodox in Asia , Africa , Europe have attested it as divine . But for the Churches infalibility in that sense , in which this Author means it , how little hath been brought appears by the answer here made , and that much may be said against it will appear by that which follows . Yea I dare bodly say , that ( as H. T. holds it ) no one Council or Father of esteeme held the Churches infallibility in the first thousand years from Christs incarnation , and I think I may say for half a thousand more , but many not onely of those who are reckoned for hereticks by Romanists , but also such as have been judged Catholicks have opposed it in the second and third ages , yea whole Nations , Emperors , Kings , and states have opposed the definitions , which the so termed Generals Councils approved by the Pope have made , and many learned men have written against it , none died for it in that time , nor were any miracles wrought to confirme it . Nor hath the questioning of some few of the books of Scripture , either by some hereticks or a few Fathers for a while abated the credit of those parcels questioned in the Churches of Christ throughout the world . So that if it were true , that we believed the Canon ( as I know nothing but uncharitablenesse can make this Author question whether we do ) onely on that score ( as we do not ) yet we have far more abundant tradition for it then is for the Churches imagined infallibility . 2. I say the Anathema's and definitions are neither formal nor virtual proofs of an universal tradition or attestation to the Churches infallibility . For , 1. p. 7. He confesseth in the second and third ages were no councils , nor in the tenth , in which any controversies of moment were decided , p. 25. and therefore here this universal tradition fails . 2. Those that were not approved by the Popes , but rejected by them , and those which were not Oecumenical have not used such Anathema's , and yet H. T. thinks not his infallibility proved thereby . 3. That they did well in using such Anathema's , or the Church in submitting to them may be doubted . 4. But if that be yeilded that they did well , yet surely they did not set their Anathema's to their decisions , because they took themselves to be infallible either by their own authority or the Popes approbation ; yea it is certain the Councils did set to their Anathema's , when they opposed the Popes and deposed them , and defined themselves above him . And even the Council of Trent put their Anathema's to their definitions afore they were tendred to the Pope , or Pius the fourth had approved them : but they took it they might set their Anathema to their definitions , because they thought them right , though not themselves infallible in them . And thus may any particular person pronounce Anathema , as Paul did , Gal. 1. 8 , 9. and yet not be thereby demonstrated infallible . So vain is this no better then blasphemous speech of H. T. which will further appear by examining what follows .

SECT. VIII .

The objections of Protestants against the Churches infallibility from Fathers and Councils are vindicated from the answers of H. T.

He saith . Objections from Fathers and Councils resolved . Ob. The Council of Fanckford condemned the second Nicene Council for giving soveraign honour to images , as you may see in the Preface to the Carolin books . Answ. The second Nicene Council allows no such honour to images , but onely a salutation or honorary worship , not true Latria ( or soveraign honour ) which it defines to be due to God onely , Act. 1. 7. The Carolin books are of no authority , they say that Council was not approved by the Pope , which is false , and that it was held at Constantinople in Bythinia , whereas Constantinople is in Thracia .

I Reply , That honour to Images , which Papists will not have to be termed Latria or soveraign honour proper to God ; the Scripture makes soveraign honour to be given to God onely in a religious respect ; to wit , bowing down the body to them , kissing , burning incense , offering gifts , holding up the hands , lifting up the eyes , praying to them , which the Scripture appropriates to God , and denies to images , Matth. 4. 10. Revel. 19. 10. 1 Kings 19. 18. Exod. 20. 4 , 5. Nor doth the Scripture make such distinction of Latria and Dulia , but that it forbids such worship to be given to any image of an invisible being , which shews subjection to them , or dependence on them ; for such worship is religious , and is an acknowledgement of a Deity in them . The Scripture doth no where appropriate Latriam or the soveraign honour or worship due to God onely to offering of sacrifice , but that it also condemns as idolatrous the other acts named , if they be not given to Magistrates or superiors out of civil respects , but to Images , Angels , or Saints alive or deceased in a religious respect as superiors to us to whom we are subject and on whom we depend for help and succour . And therefore this plaister of H. T. is too narrow to cover the foul ulcer that came from the false Synod called the second Nicene . For what is that salutation or honorary worship , H. T. saith the second council of Nice allows to Images ? Is it not bowing down to them , which Papists themselves call adoration , and difference from veneration , which consists onely in a decent usage without defiling , defacing , or such usage as shews hatred and contempt of the thing or person represented , such as is done to monuments or treasure laid up to be kept , but not as things set up higher then our selves to be worshipped , for that is plain Idolatry , and the very same with the Gentiles adoration of their Idols ? now this did the second Nicene Council require to be given to Images , ut erigerentur & adorarentur , &c. yea if Bellarm. lib. 2. de Imagin , Sanct. c. 21. say true , that Council would have them adored not only by accident , that is because joyned with the thing adored , but also of themselves as that , in which is the reason of veneration , nor onely improperly that is in the place of another , so as that the proper term of the adoration should not be the Image , but Christ himself , but properly so as that the Image be honoured ratione sui ipsius in respect of it self , as he explains his distinctions , ch. 20. And this adoration it was conceived by Charles the Great , and the Synod of Francfurt that Nicene Council intended to give to Images , and was refuted by the four books set forth by Charles the Greats authority yet to be seen , and condemned by the authority of the Synod of Francfurt , Anno 794. at which were present the Popes legats and did approve of the Synods determination , or dissembled the Popes opinion . I finde not that the Carolin books say , that the second Nicene Council was not approved by the Pope ; if they did , and that they were deprived , it makes the more against the infallibility of Councils approved by the Pope , which those three hundred Fathers acknowledged not , who met at Francfurt . The mistake of the Country wherein Nice was , is not such , as Bellarmin or Baronius conceive derogates from the truth of the thing , testified by so many authors of credit , all the ancient historians nearest that time , besides Hin●marus Agobardus , and after some English writers as Hoveden &c. Bellarmin himself , l. 2. de concil . auth. c. 7. confesseth it condemned the seventh Synod : and Platina in the life of Hadrian the first saith , that two worthy Bishops Theophylact and Stephan held a Synod in the name of Hadrian of German and French Bishops in which the Synod , which the Greeks call the seventh , was abrogated .

H. T. adds , Ob. The Lateran Council under Pope Leo the tenth Sess. 11. defined a Pope to be above a Council , and the Council of Constance , Sess. 4. defined a Council to be above a Pope . Answ. Neither part was ever yet owned by the Church for an Oecumenical decree or definition , and if it were , it would be answered that the Lateran Council defined onely a Pope to be above a Council taken without a Pope , or not approved ; and that the Council of Constance onely defined a Council approved by a Pope to be above a Pope without a Council , which definitions are not contradictory , no more than to say , one part of any thing is bigger then another , and the whole bigger then both ; so that from hence it cannot be inferred that either Council erred : nor was either decree approved by the Pope .

I reply , this is impudent outfacing with shifts the truth in things manifest to all that enquire into them . He cannot deny that these contrary definitions were of two Councils which he himself , p. 33 , 36. terms general Councils , and makes Popes president in both , and both he sets down in his Catalogue made to prove a succession in the Church of Rome , and yet here he denies their definitions to be Oecumenical , what is an Oecumenical definition if that an Oecumenical Council be not ? How is it an Oecumenical definition when it determins against John Hus , or against Christs own expresse command for communion under one kinde , and nor Oecumenical , when it decrees the supremacy of the Council above the Pope ? This is meer jugling of h●●us pocus , which shews that when it likes them the Council shall be approved , when not , rejected , and thereby take upon them to be above Pope and Council . But if this be the fashion of their Councils who can tell when one decree is contrary to another if these were not ? or who can tell when a decree is approved by a Pope if neither of these were ? where 's the agreement ? where 's the infallibility they so vainly arrogate to their Church ? Martin the fifth expressely confirmed the acts of the Council of Constance in the 45. Session , of which one was in the fourth Session , that every one though of Papal dignity was bound to obey a general Council in the things pertaining to faith . That which Bellarm. l. 2. de Concil. aut . c. 19. saith that he onely approved some things not others , because he said , sic conciliariter facta is but a shift ; for that expression is not set down by way of limitation and distinction , but explication , noting the reason of approving all because they were done conciliariter , as the word sic shews , which implies his acknowledgment that they were all so done . Besides he not excepting it expressely could not be interpreted to except that from his confirmation more then any thing else there acted , it might as well be said he excepted the decree about half communion ; yea if he had excepted that decree of the Councils being above the Pope he had meerly deluded the Council , that decree being their principal decree , and for which it was called . Add hereto that the words of his Bull thereupon do more fully manifest that he did not except it ; and the decree of the Council of Basil called after by vertue of his Bull shews , that they understood it to confirm that decree proceeding against Pope Eugenius conformably to it . And for the other Council that Pope Leo the tenth did not confirm the decree of the Popes being above a Council is contrary to Bellarmin l. 2. de Concil. aut . c. 18. who recites the decree as a proof , and c. 5. reckons it among the general Councils approved by the Pope , as appears , saith he , in that he was president in person . And for the other answer of H. T. it is ridiculous , sith the Councils words are expresse that any person though of Papal dignity was to obey the general Council , and the decree was made of purpose to justifie their fact in putting down a Pope . And there was no question nor need be , who is above other when both joyn , but all the question is and so the definition must be construed , when they are severed . Yea it would be trifling to say the Pope should obey the Council , when the Pope concurred , for it 's all one as to say be should obey himself : and to say the Council is above the Pope when the Council and Pope are one is frivolous , for in all such comparisons the words expresse what each is severally as they stand in competition according to their several authorities , and therefore the similitude of H. T. is frivolous as being not to the purpose . Lastly , with what face can this man say that neither Council err'd , when Bellarmin saith c. 7. that in the Florentin and last Lateran the Council of Constance was rejected in respect of the first Sessions , wherein it defined a Council to be above a Pope ? so that all the wit of man is not able to avoid this objection , but that according to the suppositions of Popish Doctors either a general Council approved by a Pope may erre in a point of faith , or else there is no error in a main point of their faith , when one general Council approved by a Pope contradicts a former general Council approved by a former Pope of greater freedome and celebrity by reason of the Emperours presence and for other causes , which was seconded by another Council not long after , as appears by the next objection , which is thus set down by H. T.

Ob. The Council of Basil defined , that a Council was above a Pope . Answ. The decree was not approved , nor any other of that Council , but onely such as concerned Church benefices . See Eugenius with Terrecremata l. 2. c. 100.

I reply , I finde no such distinction in Pope Nicolas the fifth his Bull , but that it is confirmed altogether . But it seems when it pleaseth these men the Council shall be approved , when not rejected . So that it is not either the calling of a Council by a Pope , or the universality of the Fathers , or the approbation of the Pope can confirm it , if another Pope reject it , which they will do when it 's against their power and profit . And hereby is proved that Popes are vertiginous , that Popery is as mutable as the weathercock , that there is so little shew of agreement , unity and infallibility in Popes and Councils approved by him , that scarce any states are more full of changes in matters civil then they are in matters Ecclesiastical and of faith , nor in any part of the world more disagreement then among Papists .

Further saith H. T. Ob. The Council of Ariminum defined Arianism . Answ. It did not , and that equivocal decree that was there made was never approved by the Pope ; and the Fathers themselves ( who were deluded by the Arians with words that bare a double sense when they perceived the fraud ) lamented and renounced the fact .

I reply , H. T. his own words confirm the objection . For , 1. If the Fathers were deluded by the Arians then they were not infallible ; and so a general Council approved by the Pope may erre in a main point of faith . 2. If that Council did not define Arianism , how were they deluded ? wherein was the fraud but in that the words being of double sense , yet indeed decreed Arian doctrine ? what need they lament or renounce the fact if it were not so ? why doth Austin l. 3. contra Maximinum c. 14. oppose that council to that of Nice , and Maximinus allege it for himself if it did not decree Arianism ? why did Ruffinus , Socrates , Basil cited by Bellarm , l. 1. de concil . c. 6. reject it , and Bellarmin reckon it among the reprobate councils , if it were not Arian ? and that Pope Liberius did subscribe to , it is related by Hierom in his catalogue of writers in Fortunatianus , in his Chronicle , by Hillary sundry times and others .

Yet saith H. T. Ob. The council of Trent erred by adding to the Canon of Scripture . Answ. It did not : the third council of Carthage approved all the same books by name excepting Baruch whom they compared with the Prophet Hieremy , whose Secretary he was , and this twelve hundred years ago .

I reply , if the council of Trent did not erre , Pope Gregory the great did , who expressely denied the books of Maccabees to be canonical , l. 19. Moral . c. 17. As for the third Synod of Carthage it was not an Oecumenical Synod , and it is over ballanced by the Synod of Laodicea before it , who omitted them . And if the ancients termed the Apocryphal books canonical or divine , they are to be understood according to Ruffinus his explication in his Exposition on the Creed , and others , that they were canonical in a sort as being read in the Churches by reason of some histories or moral sentences , but not so as that they were brought to confirm the authority of faith by them .

H. T. further saith . Ob. The Fathers err'd some in one thing some in another . Answ. A part I grant , all together ( speaking of any one age ) I deny , and they all submitted to the Church and so do likewise our Schoolmen , who differ onely in opinion concerning School points undefined , not in faith .

I reply . 1. That the Fathers of some ages did generally hold errors is apparent in many particulars . Augustine held it an Apostolical tradition that the Sacrament of the Eucharist was necessary for infants , as appears l. 1. de pec . merito & remiss . c. 24. and elsewhere , and Maldonat on John 6. v. 53. saith that it was the opinion of Augustin and Pope Innocent the first , and that it prevailed . in the Church for six hundred years , and yet the council of Trent , sess. 21. c. 4. can. 4. saith , If any say the communion of the Eucharist to be necessary for little ones afore they come to years of discretion , let him be Anathema . The like might be said of sundry other points , as that of the Millenary opinion , the souls not seeing God till the day of judgement , &c. 2. That all the Fathers did not submit to the Church of Rome , is manifest by the Asian Bishops opposition to Victor about Easter , to Stephen about rebaptization by Cyprian and others , to Boniface , Zozimus and Celestin about appeals from Africa to Rome by Aurelius Augustinus and a whole council . 3. That the Schoolmen differ in points of faith defined is manifest in Peter Lumbard l. 1. sent. dist. 17. who held the holy Ghost to be the charity whereby we love God , and the dissent from him in that point , the differences about the Popes authority above a council , power to absolve subjects from the oath of allegiance , certainty of faith concerning a mans own justification , Gods predetermination of mans will , and many more yet controverted between Dominicans and Jesuits , Jansenists and Molinists . 4. All submit not to the Pope , but some appeal from him to a council , others by withstanding in disputes and otherwise decline his sentence in their cause , of which the opposition against Pope Paul the fifth his interdict by the republick of Venice about their power over Ecclesiasticks is a famous instance , evidently shewing that all that live in communion with the See of Rome acknowledge not such a supremacy and infallibility to it as the modern Jesuits ascribe to it .

Yet again , saith H. T. Ob. St. Augustin tells St. Hierom that he esteems none but the writers of the Canonical books to have been infallible in all they write , and not to erre in any thing . Answ. Neither do we , we esteem not the writers of councils infallible in all they write , nor yet councils themselves , but only in the Oecumenical decrees or definitions of faith .

I reply , Augustin Epist. 19. to Hierom doth not onely say thus , I confess to thy charity , that I have learned to give this reverence and honour onely to those books of Scriptures , which are now called canonical , that I do most firmly believe no author of them to have erred any thing in writing ; but he adds also , But I so read others , that how much soever they excel in holiness and doctrine , I do not think it true because they have so thought , but because they could perswade me either by those Canonical authors or by probable reason that it abhors not from that which is true . Which plainly shews . 1. That he counted only the writers of Canonical Scriptures and those books infallible . 2. That the sentence of others however excellent in sanctity and doctrine , is not to be believed because they so thought . 3. That their sentence prevailed with him so far as it's proof did perswade . 4. That this proof must be by the Canonical Scriptures or probable reason .

H. T. adds . Ob. St. Augustin Epist. 112. says we are onely bound to believe the Canonical Scriptures without dubitation , but for other witnesses we may believe or not believe them according to the weight of their authority . Answ. He speaks in a particular case in which nothing had been defined by the Church , namely whether God could be seen with corporal eyes ? But the decrees of general councils are of divine authority , as we have proved ; and therefore according to St. Augustin to be believed without dubitation .

I reply , though he speaks upon occasion of one particular case , yet the speech is universal [ but for other witnesses or testimonies ( besides the Canonical Scriptures ) by which any thing is perswaded to be believed , it is lawful for thee to believe or not to believe , as thou shalt weigh how much moment those things have or not have to beget faith : ] There 's not a word of exception concerning a thing defined by the Church ; yea the opinion of Augustin is full and plain in his second book of baptism against the Donatists , ch. 3. to take away infallibility from any Bishops or councils Oecumenical , which I think fit to translate to shew how contrary it is to Austin to make any councils after the Apostles infallible . Who knows not , saith he , the holy Canonical Scripture as well of the old as of the new Testament to be contained in it's certain bounds , and that it is so to be preferred before all the later letters of Bishops that a man may not doubt or dispute of it at all , whether that which it is manifest to be written in it be true or right , but for the letters of Bishops which have been or are written after the Canon confirmed , it is lawful that they be reprehended , if perhaps in them any thing have deviated ( or gone out of the way ) from truth , both perhaps by the wiser speech of any man more skilful in that thing , and by the more grave authority of other Bishops , and the prudence of the learned , and by councils . And those councils which are held in single Regions or Provinces are to give place without any windings to the authority of more full councils , which are gathered out of the whole Christian world , and oft times those former fuller councils may be mended by later , when by some trial of things that is open which was shut up and known which did lye hid , without any smoke of sacrilegious pride , without any swollen neck of arrogance , without any contention of wan envy , with holy humility , with Catholick peace , with Christian charity .

Yet once more , saith H. T. Ob. St. Athanasius ( in his Epistle to the Bishops of Africa ) tells the Arians they in vain ran about to seek councils , since the Scripture is more powerful then all councils . Answ. He says it was vain for them who had rejected the general council of Nice , nor doubt we but the Scripture hath in many respects a preheminence above the definitions of general councils , and a higher degree of infallibility , yet these also are infallible in points of faith .

I reply , the reason of Athanasius shews it was in vain for Arians to seek to councils , because the Scripture was against them , not because the council of Nice was against them , as the very words recited by H. T. shew , who doth well to acknowledge the Scriptures preheminence , which justifies Protestants who stick to the Scriptures against councils , which do often swerve from them and sometimes oppose them . As for the degree of infallibility ( if there be any degrees of infallibility , which perhaps a Logician will deny , infallibility being a meer negation of liableness to error or being deceived ) H. T. ascribes to them , it is so uncertain what it is , and so weakly proved , that none that loves his soul should rest on it , and not try , what they hold , by the Scriptures confessedly more infallible . As for the speech of the council of Basil there 's no reason why Protestants or others should rest on it , when Papists themselves , even H. T. p. 79. rejects it , and says it was not approved in any decree , but such as concern Church benefices ; and yet this man concludes with it's speech about the authority of a general council , as if it were certain . So vertiginous is this Author .

ARTIC. VI. Sanctity and Miracles prove not the Roman Church true .

The Roman Church is not demonstrated to be the true Church by her Sanctity and Miracles .

SECT. I.

The Texts brought by H. T. to prove that the true Church is known by Sanctity and Miracles are shewed to be impertinent .

H. T. proceeds thus , Article 6. The true Church demonstrated by her Sanctity and Miracles . Our Tenet is , that the Roman Catholick Church is known and evidently distinguished from all false Churches , not onely by the marks and properties by us premised , but also by her sanctity and power of doing Miracles , and is proved thus , That is thé true Church and lawfull Spouse of Christ which is eminent for Sanctity of Discipline , and Doctrine , and for Miracles . But the Roman Catholick Church and no other is eminent for Sanctity of Discipline and Doctrine , and for Miracles ; therefore the Roman Catholick Church and no other is the true Church and lawfull Spouse of Christ . The Major for Sanctity is proved by that Article of the Apostles Creed , I believe the holy Catholick Church , as also by these Texts of holy Scripture ; Christ gave himself for his Church , cleansing her by the Laver of Water ( Baptism ) in the Word , that he might present her to himself a glorious Church , not having spot or wrinkle , but that she might be holy and unspotted , Ephes. 5. 27. These things ye were ( saith St. Paul ) but ye are washed , but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ , and the Spirit of our God , 1 Cor. 6. 10. A good Tree bringeth forth good Fruit , by their Fruit ye shall know them , St. Matth. 7 17 , 20. Strait is the Gate , and narrow is the Way which leadeth to Life , &c. If thou wilt be perfect , go and sell all thou hast , and give to the poor , &c. and come and follow me , St. Matth. 19. 21. There be Eunuchs who have gelded themselves for the Kingdom of Heaven , he that can take let him take , St. Matth. 10. 12. Obey your Prelates , and be subject to them , &c. Heb. 13. 17.

Answ. 1. THe Syllogism is not good , the words [ and no other ] being wanting in the Major Proposition , and , if they be put in , the Major is false . That which is eminent for Sanctity of Discipline and Doctrine , and for Miracles , and no other , is the true Church and lawfull Spouse of Christ . For a Chnrch may be true and a lawfull Spouse of Christ which is not eminent for Miracles . Else it would go ill with all the Churches since Miracles have ceased , and with the Church consisting of John Baptist and his Disciples . But as it is now expressed by H. T. I grant the Major , though except the words of Christ , Matth 7. 17 , 20. the Texts are all impertinent . The Article of the Creed is not meant of the meer visible church , but of the church which is also the invisible of the elect persons , nor is it meant of holiness of outward Discipline and Doctrine , but of inward real holiness , and so are Ephes. 5. 27. 1 Cor. 6. 10 , 11. yea the former is meant of that holiness , which is perfect without spot or wrinkle , when the Church is presented to himself at his appearing , and the other of that sanctifying which is by the Spirit of God , and not onely by Baptism . The Texts Matth. 7. 13 , 14. & 19. 11 , 12. & Mark 10. 21. Heb. 13. 17. are not expressions of properties , which are marks of the church , but Precepts , and signifie what duty some did or ought to do . Now the doing of some duties is not a mark of the church , as v. g. doing justice , giving to the poor , relieving the Saints , selling all we have , which may be in Infidels ; and those duties which are in the three later Texts are special duties of some , and therefore not marks which agree to the whole church , but such as all members are not tied to , every member ( not a woman ) is not to geld himself , but he that can take it , nor to sell all ( Papists make these Evangelical counsels of more perfection than is ordinary ) nor to obey Prelates , and therefore in such they are no parts of Sanctity , much less marks of a true church .

SECT. II.

The Sanctity of men in former Ages proves not the holiness of the present Roman Church .

BUt it is the Minor which is to be denied , of which H. T. saith thus , Now that the Roman Catholick Church hath abounded with , and brought forth Saints in all Ages ( which is a pregnant and convincing proof of our second Proposition ) is manifest by the Chronicles and Martyrologies of the whole Christian World .

Answ. 1. To talk of the Roman catholick church is non-sense as is shewed before . 2. It is scarce good sense to say , The Church brings forth Saints , when the church is no other than the Saints or a company of Saints , 3. Were it yielded that the Church did abound with and bring forth Saints in all Ages , yet this proves not the sanctity of the church , but of those Saints in it , nor doth it at all prove the sanctity of the Discipline or Doctrine , but of the persons , much less the power of Miracles , the sanctity of the church , persons being often Saints , as John Baptist , who have not power of doing Miracles , and unholy persons have it sometimes , Matth. 7. 22 , 23. and if it did prove any thing it would prove the privilege of the person , not the sanctity of the church . 4. The sanctity of the now Roman Church is not proved by the holiness of persons in former Ages , whereof many never were of Rome , nor is it likely ever heard of it , some of them opposed the Roman Church , and some lived and died in a state of disclaiming of it , and some kinde of excommunication from it , and had they lived to see its pride and wickedness , as now it is , would no doubt have abhorred it with greatest detestation ; much less is it proved by the holiness of men dead one thousand or four hundred years , especially when the holiness of those few is obscured by the almost universal ungodliness of their chief Bishops ( whom they account their visible Heads , and essential parts of their Church ) and Clergy and Laity in Rome it self for a thousand years past , which hath been so notorious , as almost all their Historians , and Preachers , and Poets have described it so , as that it may be conceived justly , that Rome is and hath been a sink of all uncleanness : There are verily , saith Bellarm. lib. 4. de notis Eccles. cap. 13. in the Catholick Church very many evil persons : and some of their own Popes , as Adrian the sixth , have confessed by Cheregatus his Legate , that abominations were committed in that holy See , the inf●●●ity passed from the Head to the Members , from the Popes to the inferiour Prelates , in so much that there hath been none that hath done good , no not one . Innumerable have been the complaints made by all sorts , and sometimes by the Princes of the German Empire of their Grievances by the Popes and Court of Rome . Nor do Travellers tell us of any Reformation considerable since the Trent Council : their own Writers tell us , there is no Excommunication for the common vices , but onely some Penance , which effects no change ; in the apprehension of Sir Edwin Sandys , if it were not for a little formal abstinence in Lent there would be an universal Deluge of vice in Italy ; so that he who denieth the Roman Clergy and Church to be a most unholy and filthy People hath gotten a Whores forehead that cannot blush . There are sins among Protestants , but I never yet met with Writer or Traveller , but would prefer London and other Protestant Towns as more free from impurity of body , blasphemy , cruelty , treachery , injustice , Atheism , and such other sins as are not to be named , than Rome is , where hath been permission of Whore-houses for Money by the Pope , and the Whores and Bastards of Popes and Cardinals so notoriously domineer .

SECT. III.

The imagined holiness of Benedict , Augustine , Francis , Dominick , proves not the verity of the now Roman Church .

BUt let us see what H. T. saith for their Holiness , St. Augustine and his fellows who converted England , when they were received into Canterbury , ( saith Hollingshead , part. 1. pag. 100. ) began to follow the trade of the Apostles , exercising themselves in continual prayer , fasting , watching , and preaching , despising all worldly things , and living in all points according to the Doctrine which they taught . St. Francis , St. Benet , and St. Dominick , were all eminent for sanctity of life , as the Magdeburgian Centurists , confes . cent . 13. Col. 11. 79. But I never yet heard of any Protestant Saints in the World .

Answ. What a foolish proof is this of his Minor , that the Roman Church and no other is eminent for sanctity of life , because Benedict and Austin the Monk a thousand years since , Francis and Dominick five hundred years ago were su●h in his esteem , and he hath heard of no Saints among Protestants ? As if there might be no Saints in the Greek church , though he hear of no Protestant Saints , or as if the Greek church now judged schismatick might not be as well proved or rather better to be eminent for sanctity of life for the holiness of Chrysostome , Basil , Nazianzen , Gregory Nyssen , as the now Roman , for the reputed holiness of Austin , Benet , Francis , and Dominick . But might there not be Protestant Saints which he hears not of ? Protestants are the same with Primitive Christians in their Religion or Articles of Faith and Worship , and as such all the holy Apostles , Martyrs , Confessours , which have been true Christians have been Protestant Saints , as protesting against the Popish corruptions in Doctrine , Discipline , and Worship ; so all the holy men who have protested against them in all Ages have been Protestant Saints . Thus Cyprian and Augustin who protested against the Popes usurpation about receiving Appeals from Africa ; Gregory the Great who protested against the usurpation of the Title and Power of an universal Bishop , the Synod of Frankford which protested against Image-worship were Protestant Saints . And for Waldus , and the Waldenses that they were Protestants is manifest , and Saints too , their own Works shewed . ( See Morland's History of the Evangelical Churches in Piedmont ) even Rainerius their Adversary being Judge . And for Wickliff , Reginald Peacock , Robert Grosthead , Richardus Armachanus , and many more their Lives were so exemplary as shamed their Adversaries , and yet they were Protestants more or less against Popish Errours and Abuses . It is true , Protestants are not canonized Saints by Popes , who use to canonize for Money or other respects some ignorant superstitious persons , or else active Instruments for their party : but the holiness of Protestants since Luther began the Reformation hath been such as hath caused even their Enemies to ascribe much excellency to their eminent Leaders . Notwithstanding Bolse●k's Lye ( of which the wiser Papists are ashamed ) yet Florimundus Raymundus , Papyrius Massonius , and others , acknowledged Calvin to have been a man eminent for strictness of life , and industry in his pastoral work beyond any Papist they could name . Melancthon is commended even by Papists for his holy , peaceable , and painfull conversation in the work of the Lord . The Lives of the chief Reformers shewed them to be such as had the Spirit of God dwelling in them , Hooper and Bradford in England , Patrick Hammilton and George Wiseheart in Scotland were men of exemplary godliness ; that I name not late men , such as John Fox , John Dod , Richard Grenham , and many more whose Lives and Works shewed them to have been men of holy conversation , and of much acquaintance with God , whom this Scribler and such like superstitious Papists , who place holiness in observance of humane inventions rather than in Gods commands , obeying the Pope rather than Christ , and believing the lying Legends of Friers before the true reports of godly Preachers of the Gospel , having prejudice against them , condemn as Hereticks . Yethet they that place holiness in following the Rules of Christ , and not humane traditions , do judge them to have been holy and blessed men , such as have had not onely a form , but also the power of godliness . As for what H. T. saith out of Hollingshead of Austin and his followers , it speaks only what they did at the beginning , but it is certain that Austin did not so persevere , but that he shewed much pride towards the British Bishops , and so much malice to the Banchor Monks , men of more reputed holiness than himself , that he was suspected at least to have been Instigator of a cruel Massacre of two thousand of them for not submitting to him , and receiving the Roman Rites . And for his converting of England , though I am willing to let him have his due commendation , yet neither is it true that he converted all England , and those he did convert he did also pervert by his obtruding the Romish Orders , which Christ never appointed , whence a great Deluge of Superstition spread over Britain , and much discord and misery followed thereupon , as may be seen in the Writers of the English Histories . As for Benedict who was before Austin the Monk , and Francis and Dominick after , that which I finde in the Relation of their Lives by Villegas , translated by Heigham , gives me no such cause as to judge them to have been men of such holiness as the Popes and Friers have judged them to be , but at the best deluded persons with the Errour of those times , in which holiness was placed in monastical profession , and austere Discipline , which the Apostle counts to be no better than will-worship , Col. 2. 23. and their talk of their Miracles and Visions are no better than old wives tales , upon the report of which Popes as ignorant as themselves , or otherwise corrupt , have canonized them for their own ends ; and the preaching of Dominick was against the truth professed by the Albigenses , whom Rainerius confesseth to have been men otherwise holy in Life and Doctrine , but that they spake against the church of Rome , of whose idolatry , pride , cruelty , avarice , uncleanness of body , there is so much in all the Writers of those times as is sufficient to shew , that those men had cause to abhor them , and to fear the yielding subjection to them , who had departed from Christ , by their setting up other Mediatours besides him , and changed pure Christian Religion into a corrupt mixture of Paganism , Judaism , and Christianity : the shedding of whose Blood was in a great measure caused by Dominick's Sermons , who may be therefore judged a wicked Murderer rather than an holy Saint . That which the century Writers say of these men is but a Relation out of the Writers of the Romanists , that they were by them accounted eminent for sanctity according to the opinion of those times : but that they any where ascribed to them real holiness I finde not .

SECT. IV.

The Roman Church is not proved to be the true Church by the holness of their Doctrine , but the contrary is true .

H. T. proceeds thus , Adde hereunto what the Catholick Church teaches , that the Commandments are possible , nay , must be kept , she teaches the necessity of Contrition , Confession , aud Satisfaction , with many other practices of self-denial ; she teaches obedience to Priests and spiritual Pastours , in things belonging to the soul and the government of the Church ; she teaches much fasting , prayer , and mortification ; she exhorts to good works , voluntary poverty , chastity , and obedience . The contrary to all which Doctrines are taught by Protestants and other Sectaries .

Answ. THe Papists teach not onely that the Commandments of God are possible , and that they must be kept ( which Protestants teach also ) but they also teach , that in this life a person in the state of grace may perfectly keep the whole Law of God , so as not to sin , ( except venially , which is with them not a sin properly , as being besides , not against the Law ) and thereby be justified , and that many things , which are horrid evils , are venial sins , and that a person may satisfie for them , by Works of Penance , which are for the most part easie things , yea , they teach that a man may by his good works merit of condignity ( either by virtue of Gods promise , or the worth of the work ) eternal life , yea , that he may do Works of Supererogation , and merit for others , and that thereby is made up a Treasury in the Church , which with the redundance of Christ's sufferings may by Indulgences be laid out for others , for the relaxation of their punishment in Purgatory . But this Doctrine Protestants abhor , as being so far from being holy ▪ that they detest it as anti-evangelical , proudly evacuating the grace of the Gospel , and they teach that most blessed , holy , and precious Doctrine of the Gospel , that the most holy mee● man is unable in this life , though regenerate according to the measure of renewing grace , he hath to keep the Law of God perfectly , so as to fail in no point , or so as to be justified before God by pleading any Works of his own before , or after Regeneration , or can merit of condignity in proper acception any thing at Gods hands , much lesseternal life , but all that are justified are justified by faith in Christ freely by the grace of God through the Redemption that is in Jesus Christ , and that eternal life is the gift of God through Jesus Christ our Lord , and this we are sure as far exceeds in holiness Popish Doctrine as Christ exceeds Moses , the Gospel the Law , the new covenant the old . Protestants teach the necessity of contrition of spirit for sin , and confession of sin to God , and satisfaction to men whom we have injured , if able : but the necessity of confession to a Priest , and such power of absolution and enjoyning Penance , as Papists ascribe to a Priest , and such satisfaction to God for sin , as they teach and practise , we deny , as being injurious to the Blood of Christ , an arrogant usurpation of what Christ never conferred , but a fruit of ignorance of the nature of repentance , and of the mystery of the Gospel , and a meer Engine to rob the people , and to hold them in slavish subjection to their Priests . We say , that it is true self-denial when Christ requires it , and either the glory of God , the truth of Christ , and obedience to him must be forsaken , or our goods , liberties and lives , than to deny our selves by not retaining them : but that it is no part of that self-denial which Christ requires , nor any part of Christian mortification for a man unnecessarily to leave his estate and imployment , to whip himself , creep to a cross , go on pilgrimage to Jerusalem , and such other things as Christ never required , but are meer superstition and hypocrisie . Protestants teach obedience to spiritual Pastours in things belonging to the soul , and the government of the Church , when they teach them to observe what Christ commanded : but they justly refuse to subject their consciences to such commands of Prelates and Priests as Christ never appointed , but judge it necessary to stand fast in the liberty they have by Christ , and not be entangled with the yoke of bondage , which Popes , and Prelates , and Priests , under pretence of the Church ( of which they are the least part ) about difference of Meats , Marriage , Holy-days , Temples , and such like things endeavour to impose on their consciences and practise , as being injurious to their Christian freedome and an heavy burden . Protestants teach much fasting when God calls for it in time of affliction , and for more advantage in prayer , but they reject Popish set fasts , and their mock-fasts , in forbearing flesh of beasts , eggs , milk , butter , yet eating and drinking other food , and drink perhaps more delicious in fulness , as a meer delusion . Protestants teach praying much in spirit with understanding of what they ask with faith , and trust to be heard through the Name of Christ for such good things as God hath promised : but they deride justly Popish praying in Latin by those who understand not what they say , their saying Ave Maries and the Creed for Prayers , their superstitious saying Prayers with Beads by tale , their tying themselves to canonical hours , as more holy than other times , their Prayers for Souls in Purgatory , which is a meer figment , serving onely to affright silly people that they may draw money from them for saying Masses , they detest that most abominable invocating of the Virgin Mary , wherein she is extolled as Authour of Grace , Mother of Mercy , having authority over or upon Christ , with abundance of wicked Superstitions which are used in Popish devotion to canonized Saints , Crucifixes , a piece of Bread , imagined Relicks of Saints . Protestants press on men true mortification of the sins of the flesh or deeds of the body by the spirit working hatred of the inward lusts , and forsaking the evil practises of them ; but they reject the foolish practises of whipping themselves , tearing the flesh with lying on Briars , as they say Benedict did , tumbling in the Snow , as they say Francis of Assisium did , girding the body with Iron , and lying on the ground , as they say Dominick did , which neither subdue lust , nor the Devils temptations , but are like the acts of Bedlams , and may be , and perhaps are done out of vain-glory and proud conceit of meriting by them . Protestants exhort to good works , but deny the building of Monasteries to be such , for idle Monks , that in stead of working with their hands that they might give to him that needs eat the bread to the full , which belongs to the needy poor , under pretence of praying , which is no special function . Protestants teach men to be poor in spirit , to bear patiently poverty , when Gods providence allots it ; but the voluntary poverty of Monks and Friers they reject as being a curse , or else a meer hypocritical counterfeiting of poverty , when they enjoy greatest plenty , and live in fulness , as Monks and Friers usually do , or else a meer madness , as in Anchorites and E●●mites . Protestants teach true chastity in Marriage and single life , but they detest Popish vows of single life in Priests , Friers , and Nuns , as superstitious snares , when few of them have the power of continence , and they abhor the terming of the use of the Marriage-bed in Presbyters unchast and unholy , and most of all the hellish Doctrine of those that teach it to be better for Priests to use Concubines than Wives , and tolerate fornication and other unclean lusts when they forbid Marriage , and excommunicate , and deprive , and imprison , and persecute Priests and Bishops for it . We Protestants teach obedience to Parents and Magistrates , and all that are over us in the Lord : but abhor the Vow of blinde obedience to Superiours never appointed by God , as slavish , and oft-times mischievous and destructive of the necessary obedience due to Parents , and Governours , whom God hath established . All which things being considered , we are fully assured that the Protestants Doctrine in these things is most holy , and the Popish impure , though to men that know not the Scripture it have a shew of wisdom and holiness . Yea , we avouch that there is scarce a Church in the World that is more unholy than the Roman in their maintaining the Worship of Images , which hardens the Jews from Christianity , in their adoration of the Bread they eat as their Maker , which moved Averroes a Mahometan to prefer Philosophers afore Christians , the infallible Power of the Pope , though a most wicked man by himself , or in a Council of his liking to set down what is to be held in point of Faith , to dissolve Leagues , and break Oaths upbraided by Amurath the great Turk to Christians , to dispense with incestuous Marriages , deny Marriage to Priests , which Pius the second a Pope thought fitter to be restored , forbidding some Meats as unclean at some times , the Cup at the Eucharist , and the ordinary reading of the Bible in their own Language to the Lay-people , directing men to invocate Saints , teaching them to ascribe salvation to their own Merits , making the man of sin the Vicar of Christ , besides what some have taught about deposing and destroying Princes , giving equivocating Answers to Magistrates upon Oath , exempting Priests from subjection to Princes , allowing the breach of faith to those they judge Hereticks , making cursing Parents in passion , and other horrid evils venial sins , allowing great crimes upon the probable opinion of one Doctor , killing a man to vindicate honour , and such other most odious resolutions of cases of conscience of the late Jesuits , which the more sober and honest Jansenist in his late Book of the Mystery of Jesuitisme , hath discovered ; in which there may be found such a Nest of most stinking Doctrines vented by Jesuits , as honest moral Infidels by the light of nature did detest , and from their Doctrines we may truly infer , that Rome as now it is , is indeed the Mother of harlots , and abominations of the earth . On the other side , though Protestants are not without Errours , yet in the main matters , especially in the Doctrines of the Gospel , and holiness and righteousness of life their Doctrine shines more bright than ever it did in any Church since the Age following the Apostles unto this day .

SECT. V.

The devotion of Romanists shews not the holiness of the Roman Church , it being for the most part will-worship and pharisaical hypocrisie .

H. T. goes on thus , Her Churches are open and Divine Service said not onely on all Sundays and Holy-days , but every day in the week , and that the greatest part in the forenoon . There is five times more preaching and catechizing , and ten times more fasting and praying in the Catholick Church than in the Protestant ; her Sacraments are more , and more frequented , and in stead of an innumerable multitude of religious men and women that are in the Catholick Church , who have freely forsaken all things to follow Christ , and totally relinquished the riches , pleasures , and preferments of this life to serve him in the remainder of their days in vows and practises of holy poverty , obedience , and chastity , Protestants have an innumerable company of Sects and Sect-masters that daily spring out of their stock , such as are continually broaching new Heresies , and always at defiance one with another .

Answ THe Popish devotion is so far from proving the holiness of the Roman Church falsly and most impudently termed the Catholick Church , that it rather proves them a Synagogue of Satan than a Church of Christ . Their Churches as they term them , stand open , but that which is to be seen or heard in them is more like the Temples of Pagan gods than Christian Assemblies . In the primitive times Christians had no Images in their places of meeting , but Popish Temples are full of Images and Pictures , and the service to them like the Pagans to their Idols , bowing down to them , burning Incense before them , offering gifts to them , lifting up and adoring a piece of Bread , with a great deal of outward pomp of Lights , Garments , garnishing of the house , attendance of Officers , suiting better to womanish and childish persons than holy spiritual Christians . Their Mass , which is that they glory in , is nothing like the Institution of Christ , nor used to that end for which he appointed his last Supper to be continued , but a meer shew with many ridiculous gestures , motions , actions , with Lamps burning in the day , Copes and Garments in imitation of the Jews , which make it unlike the primitive simplicity of Christians , which was without them many hundreds of years . Their many Holy days were justly heretofore complained of as a great grievance to people , and it is a great happiness to be freed from them all , as begetting idleness , luxury , and penury , the Lord's Day excepted , which is no where among them observed as a Day set apart for God , and spent in Prayer , Hearing , Reading the Word of God to the edification of the people , and such other Duties of Religion as God hath prescribed , but after some time spent in hearing Mass , and Even-song , the rest of the day is spent in feasting , sporting , and in many places in such worldly affairs , as shew little minding of God or any heavenly affections . Their Churches are open in the week days upon an ignorant and superstitious conceit , as if God would hear them there by reason of the consecration of the place , or the Relicks of some Saint , or some other fond imagination which their Priests , or ancestours instill into them , and therefore they say there their Ave-Maries and Pater-nosters by tale , without understanding or attention to what they say or do , or to God , but observing onely their gestures after their manner , stay out their time without learning any thing which may improve them in Christian knowledge , but in their houses in the mean time calling upon God with understanding and feeling of their wants , the reading of holy Scriptures is neglected , and many other Duties which should be done are omitted , and which is worst of all much wantonness and other evils occasioned ( if credible persons say true ) and cloked by the often repair of persons to their Churches . That there is more Preaching and Catechizing among Papists than among Protestants is strange news to me , nor do I think any London Merchant or other person who hath travelled into Italy or Spain will believe it . What now is done I cannot speak of mine own knowledge , as having not travelled into those Countreys ; but what I finde in Authours whom I have great cause to believe , makes me , who have known London , Oxford , Bristol , Worcester , and other parts of England , and their Preaching and Catechizing , conceive , that H. T. tells here a manifest untruth . However it is easie to discern by reading the Sermons and Catechisms of both , which are printed , that their preaching and catechizing , how often soever it be in respect of Gospel doctrine , spiritual truths and holy directions comes as short of the English Protestant Preachers Sermons and Catechizing as Lead or Dross doth of Gold . When Drury preached at Black-Frier● his Sermons were of Popish Penance , and such like superstitious points of Popery . The History of the Quarrels between Pope Paul the fifth and the Common-wealth of Venice by Frier Paul tells us , that it was found in the Rules of the Jesuits when they were expelled out of Venice , that this was out of their Instructions to be very ●paring in preaching of the free grace of God , and the relation of their Doctines in the Book of the Mystery of Jesuitism published by a Jansenist , shews what kinde of Doctrine the Jesuites now the popular Preachers instill into the people of France . Their fasting and praying , if it be such as their Casuists describe , is a nullity or a mockery , that which they call fasting being onely a change of food , sometimes such as a Glutton would choose to please his appetite , and differring a Meal for some hours , which is no fasting , and their praying no ascending of the minde to God , or making known their requests to him , but saying words many of them that contain no Petitions , like Parrots without understanding , and in a great part calling upon deceased Saints and Angels . The multitude of their Sacraments shews the grosness of their ignorance and greatness of their Superstition , Matrimony being no Sacrament of the new Law given to Christians for the sanctifying of them , but an Institution of God before the Fal● of Adam , common to all mankinde for the lawfull propagating thereof , Unction being no ordinary Rite for sanctification , but a sign of a special gift of healing , Penance is no special Sacrament , but the common Duty of all men , Auricular Confession is an unjust Imposition , Priests authoritative judicial Absolution is a meer Delusion , Confirmation is either a fond imitation of the Apostles act in giving the holy Ghost , or else is in its genuine use an Appendix to Baptism . Orders is a Rite proper to the Clergy , as it is termed . The Eucharist and Baptism are indeed holy Ordinances of Christ , not to give grace by the work done , but by the one to testifie our profession , the other our remembrance of his Death : neither name nor thing of Sacrament , as Papists define it is from Scripture , nor is any thing almost right in Papists doctrine or use of these rites , but their use of them is almost quite changed into another thing then what Christ instituted , and therefore the more they are frequented , the lesse is there of true Religion and the more of vain superstition . There 's far better administration of the Lords Supper among the Protestants , who use it after Christs institution to remember his death : not as Papists for a propitiatory sacrifice for quick and dead with addition of many histrionical mimical inventions of men , and mangling it by the half in keeping the cup from the laity , and making a private Masse of a communion . Baptism is better administred without addition of oil , cream , and spittle , and Ephphatha , and such toyes as Papists use . Ordination is better used by Protestants who ordain Preachers of the Gospel , not sacrificing Priests . And yet in these and in other matters some things may be better'd , which through the great aberration from the primitive institution remain yet to be amended . As for the multitude of religious men and women as he calls them , not only the relations of Protestants , but also of Popish writers give us cause to think there 's little of religion or morality in them except gluttony , idlenesse , whoredom , and other lewdness be religion . The common proverb makes a Frier a lyer . If they freely forsake any thing it is not to follow Christ , but Bennet , Francis , Dominick , Bruno , Ignatius and such like hypocrites , by following whom there is more reason to judge they forsake Christ , then by adhering to their rules to adhere to Christ , there being none more malicious and bitter and cruel enemies to the sincere preaching and profession of the Gospel then Friers , Monks , Nunnes , and especially the damned crew of Jesuits , who have been within one hundred years and somewhat more authors of more bloody warrs , massacres , cruel persecutions , treasons , murthers and other hellish villanies then ever such a number of men besides were guilty of since the world stood . Is any man of such a sottish spirit as to believe that these men have relinquished the riches , pleasures and preferments of this life to serve Christ the remainder of their lives , who knows what goodly structures they live in , what full tables they have , what great revenues they are inriched with ? will any man that views the very ruins of Abbys , Nunneries , Priories and other houses , which they termed religious here in England , that reads the catalogue of their revenues at the end of Speeds Chronicle judge these relinquished the riches of this life ? Are the Monastery of St. Laurence in Castile , the Colledge of La Flech in France , with innumerable more in those countries , and in Germany , Italy , &c. Cottages for poor Almesmen ? what an arrant gullery and cheat is this of this frontlesse scribler to perswade English people , that their votaries have relinquished all riches when they possesse revenues in some countries equal to Kings and Princes , fair Palaces , full tables , good cloathing , great attendance , large command of tenants with furniture and provision of all sorts of things commodious for this life in their convents ? And to say they serve Christ when all the world knows the Monks serve none but their own bellies , and the Jesuits are true to none but the Catholick Bishop and Catholick King , who may perhaps in time finde them as pernicious to themselves as they are to other Princes and States , what a monstrous fiction is it ? their vows and practises are not of true but counterfeit poverty , and if it were voluntary poverty indeed which they make shew of , it would be the more sinful , God no where directing men to cast away their estates , but to use them John 10 41. Yea Christ himself at some time was restrained from doing miracles , Matth. 13 ▪ 58. and the Disciples were defective therein , Luk. 9. 40 , 41. 6. That there are some wonders which are lying wonders . 7 That these are so like true miracles , that they are very apt to deceive a great part of men . 8. That the Lord permits these to be for trial of men . 9. That he keeps his elect from being seduced by them . 10. That they are bound to heed whereto these miracles tend , and not to follow them that make shew of them if they tend to Idolatry , and to draw us away from Gods expresse commands and truths revealed in the Scripture . Out of all which I infer , that without examination of the doctrine by the Scripture we are not meerly upon the pretence of miracles to judge men to be true teachers and true Churches , ( except they should be so many , great , frequent , open , as Christ and his Apostles were , for I count that speech of Bellarm. lib. 4. de notis Eccles. c. 14. impious that before the approbation of the Church it is not certain with the certainty of faith whether any miracle be true , which if true till the Church approved them there had been no certainty of faith that Christs or his Apostles miracles were true ) and therefore miracles are not a sufficient note of a true Church .

SECT. VII .

The Popish pretended miracles prove not the truth of their Church , nor the miracles related by some of the Fathers .

But H. T. taking his Major , as to the power of miracles , sufficiently proved proceeds thus . The Minor is proved by these ensuing undeniable testimonies . First , Protestants and other Sectaries pretend that miracles have ceased ever since Christ and his Apostles time , because they and their Sectmasters have never yet been able to do any , a sure conviction that they want this mark .

Answ. 1. PRotestants do not pretend that all working of miracles is ceased since the Apostles time , but such frequent working of miracles as was in the Apostles time . 2. That they do not for the reason which this author allegeth say so , but because the truth is so , and if they have not been able to do any , no more have the Papists ; if they could they would do them to convince the Sectaries ( as he terms us ) sith signs are not for them to believe , but for them that believe not , 1 Cor. 14. 22. And therefore if Papists could do any miracles , surely they would do them openly to convince the hereticks who deny their Popes and Churches infallibility , of which surely we are all such infidels , as that without miracles done by Popes and the Preachers of his vicarship we shall never be brought to believe it . But they choose rather to cheat foolish Papists with counterfeit tricks , as of the boy of Bilson , Garnets straw and such like devices , then to let any understanding Protestants have any sight of them , who would discover their knavery .

But H. T. tells us . Secondly , histories ( as well of enemies as friends ) have recorded many famous miracles in all ages wrought by the Catholick Church . The Magdeburgian Centurists , although Protestants ( such is evidence and force of truth ) have recorded many great miracles done by Catholicks in their 13. c. of every century for one thousand three hundred years together after Christ . St. Francis of Assisium fifteen dayes before his death had wounds freshly bleeding in his hands , feet and side , such as Christ had on the Cross , and this by miracle , Mat. Paris p. 319. One Paul Form having stoln two cons●crated hosts out of a Church sold one of them to the Jews , who out of malice and contempt stab'd it , saying ; If thou be the God of Christians manifest thy self , whereupon blood issued out of the host , for which fact thirty eight of them were burnt at Knoblock in Brandenburg , and all the rest of the Jews were banished out of that Marquisate . This is recorded by Pontianus in his fifth book of memorable things , and by John Mandevil a Protestant in his book de locis communibus p. 87. as also by Osiander Epist. 116. p. 28.

Answ. 1. The Magdeburgian Centurists have indeed in their several centuries one chapter of marvellous things , but many of them are such as were wrought immediately by divine providence and are liable to various constructions , few of them , done by men in testimony of the truth of any religion , doctrine or Church , and fewer yet of any certain credit . 2. There 's no relation of any of them that are said to be done as wrought by the Catholick Church , either Roman or properly so called , however there be some related as done by persons of the Catholick Church , who are more justly to be accounted Protestants in respect of the doctrine they taught then Papists , whom they falsly call Catholicks . 3. It is not denied that Socrates l. 7. hist. c. 17. mentions a miracle of Paul a Novatian Bishop , and Augustin . tract. 13. on John , and de unit . Eccles. c. 16. denies not , that the Donatists alleged miracles , and he calls them by contempt Mirabiliarios , and judged that the Church was to be judged by Scripture and the miracles by the Church , as Bellarm ▪ confesseth de notis Eccl. l. 4. c. 14. 4. Those that are said to be done by persons of the Catholick Church for the first five hundred years , were not done by persons that held the now Romish doctrine or in confirmation of it or the verity of the now Roman Church . 5. All the rest in all the ages following are of none or very small credit . Gregory the great is himself judged by Romanists to have been too credulous of tales , those Dialogues which are said to be his ( in which are related some of the miracles which the Papists rely on ) being either none of his or shewing too much credulity in him : the rest of the miracles in the legends are so ridiculous fopperies , as even discreet Papists themselves have discredited . Dr. Rainold Conf. with Hart ch. 8. divis . 2. allegeth Canus as in general excepting against the reports of miracles even by grave , ancient , learned holy Fathers , loc. Theol. l. 11. c. 6. and particularly against Gregories Dialogues , and Bedes history , and the very Portesse as having uncertain , forged , false and frivolous things in them about Francis and Dominick , and he shews that Pope Gelasius and a council of seventy Bishops with him condemned many false stories which were rehearsed in the Roman Portesses , if Espencaeus Comment. in 2. Epist. ad Tim. c. 4. digress . 21. be to be believed . The two pretended miracles which this Author hath chosen for instance have nothing like divine miracles or truth . The miracles of Christ and his Apostles were such as were done openly in the sight of all so as they could not be denied , but even adversaries confessed them , these were things only in private , so as that there might be some device used to delude the sight , or might be fancied to be so by some doating persons , or might be by the illusion of Satan , which is not improbable to have been used in them , there being great cause to conceive , that in those dayes of darknesse by seeming wonders , apparitions , visions , prophecies , Satan promoted the worship of Saints , especially of the Virgin Mary , the opinion of purgatory , prayer for the dead , worship of reliques , by which Idolatry and superstition grew among Christians about and after the time of the second Nicen● Synod . Nor is there any likelihood that the wounds of Francis should appear fifteen dayes afore death , in which time he was likely covered , and not after his death , in which his body being naked they might have been more visible , were not the time afore death more convenient for the imposture . And the like may be said of the other tale . What likelihood is there that a man should venture his life to steale two pieces of bread , or little water cakes , or that a Jew should buy one , or do such an act before witnesses , which would bring so much evil on him ? the thing seems more likely to have been a devised tale to pick a quarrel with the Jews , as it was in those dayes usual for a pretence to get their goods as it had been done to the Templars . Sure there was no justice to burn thirty eight for the fact of one , much lesse to banish all Jews thence . And why was nothing done to Paul Form ? either it was therefore a mee● fiction , like one of those in Sir John Mandevils travailes , or else a device to sti● up rage against the Jews , that they might prey on their goods . 6. Were it yeilded ( as it is not ) that there was truth in these relations , yet the most that can be collected is , that God would vindicate Francis from some ill opinions or reports of him , not that he might be extolled , as Horatius Turselin in his blasphemous Epigram did , as if he were comparable with Christ , or that either the Popes supremacy or the order of Friers , or the verity of the doctrine of the Roman Church then , much lesse the truth of the present Roman Church should be confirmed . Nor , if the other accident were true , doth it follow , that God would thereby confirm the opinion of transubstantiation , but the verity of Christs being the Son of God , and we may more justly answer concerning i● , then Bellarmin doth concerning the miracle of the Novatian Bishop , that it was done , not to confirm the Novatian faith , but Catholick baptism , so the other was done , not to confirm the Popish opinion of transubstantiation , but the Christian doctrine of the man Christ his being the Son of God .

H. T. adds , notwithstanding this confession of adversaries , I will also all some Fathers , of whose relations of miracles it is not worth while to consider whether they were true or not , there being not one of them that proves this point , that the Church which wants miracles is not the true Church , or that the present Roman doctrine or Church are the true doctrine or Church . That which Cyprian and Optatus relate , if true , did only vindicate the Lords Supper from contempt , that of Gregory Thaumaturgus , whether it were so or onely a report ( of which good men were sometimes too credulous ) it proves not the truth of the Roman Church , but rather , if any , of the Greek Church which owned not the Popes supremacy , nor their doctrines in that age . Much less is that which he brings out of Chrysostom concerning the reliques of Babylas for his purpose , sith it is expresly said to have proved against infidels that Christ was the Son of God , and the Idols of the Gentiles were vain things , which no more proves the truth of the Roman then of the Protestant Churches , nor so much as of the Greek Churches who hold the same . That of Ambrose concerning his brother Satyrus proves not transubstantiation , but rather the contrary , sith Satyrus adored not the Eucharist , when he kept it , and that he did keep him from drowning was but a conjecture , nor is it proved that God by that accident approved his superstition , though he might reward his faith and love , of which that was a sign . What Augustin l. 22. de civit . Dei c. 8. writes of things done in his time are not undoubted , sith some of them are related upon the report of one or more not very judicious , who might enlarge things beyond truth , esp●cially when the custome was of reading the relations to the people , and they were pressed in conscience to divulge them , as there Augustin saith was done by him , and it seemed so much for advantage of Christian Religion ; some of them might be by medicines working beyond expectation though attributed , as the fashion is , to that which was last used ; some of them perhaps fell out according to the course of such diseases , as are said to be cured ; that of the healing of two Cappadocians hath too much suspicion of counterfeiting , and Augustin himself , though he relates somethings of his own knowledge , yet makes none of them like the miracles of Christ and his Apostles , which were more frequent and open and manifest in the presence of the adversaries , as the raising of Lazarus and many more were , and therefore he allegeth them for the stopping of their mouths , who called for miracles , rather then for any evident proof of religion , using this very preface in the beginning of the Chapter , Why , say they , are not those miracles now done which ye say have been done ? I may say indeed they were necessary before the world should believe for this that the world might believe . Whosoever as yet seeks after prodigies , that he may believe , is himself a great prodigy , who the world believing , believes not . But whatever be to be thought of the relations of Augustin in that place , certain it is that Augustin , ch. 9 , 10. useth them not to give testimony to the confirmation either of the truth of the Roman Church or any of their doctrines , nor for the worshipping of Stephen the Martyr , or any other of the Saints , but only to prove the resurrection of Christ , to which they in their death gave testimony , and therefore are all impertinent to the purpose of H. T. to prove the verity of the Roman Church by them .

SECT. VIII .

The objections against the proof of the verity of the Roman Church from the power of miracles are not solved by H. T.

But H. T. takes on him to answer objections thus . Ob. Miracles have ceased ever since Christ and his Apostles . Answ. You contradict the plain promises of Christ made to his Church without limitation , as also the histories and records of all Christendom .

I Reply , 1. The objection is not as H. T. frameth it , but that so frequent and manifest working of miracles as was in the days of Christ and his Apostles , and which may be a note of the true Church or doctrine without consonancy to the Scripture hath ceased , and therefore by this mark of it self the Roman Church is not proved to be the true Church . 2. The contradictory to this is not proved by Christs promises or the Churches records For , 1. The Promises , John 14. 10. Mark . 16. 17. are indefinite in respect of persons and time , and an indefinite proposition is true in a contingent matter , if verified but of some at some times , and therefore these promises may be true of some believers onely , and of the time wherein the Apostles lived , and consequently by the promises it cannot be proved that there must be a power of working miracles in the Church in every age . 2. That they cannot be understood of any age after the Apostles unto this day is manifest , because they are not true of any age after that . For however some miracles have been done , yet not greater then Christ did , which is promised , John 14. 10. nor was the speaking with new tongues which is promised Mark . 16. 17. in any age , but that in which the Apostles lived . 3. These promises are as much made to believers in other Churches as the Roman , but now they grant there 's no power of Miracles in any other Church , and therefore they must yield to understand the words with such a limitation as may make the Proposition true , though there be no power of Miracles in the Roman Church . 4. There 's no promise of the power of Miracles to confirm the truth of the Roman Church , nor of any other point but the Christian faith , and therefore none of the Miracles done by virtue of those promises prove the truth of the now Roman Church or Doctrine , but onely the true faith , which is believed by Protestants , who believe the Creed as well as Papists . As for the Records , there are very few of them of any certainty after the Apostles days , and Popish Writers themselves do confess , that not onely in their Legends , but also in their Liturgies , fabulous things have crept ; so that by saying Miracles are altogether now ceased , or else are very rare , and are unfit to demonstrate the verity of any present Church , is no contradicting Christ's promises , or any good Records of Christendom .

H. T. adds . Object . Signs and Miracles were given to Unbelievers not to Believers , therefore they are now unnecessary . Answ. No , they are not , for they very much confirm the immediate care and providence of God over his Church , they excellently demonstrate his omnipotence , and there be many disbelievers still , the more is the pity .

I reply , that Tongues are for a sign to them that believe not , is the Apostles saying , 1 Cor. 14. 22. not for them that believe ; and there is the same reason of other Miracles ; and therefore is this justly urged by Protestants , that to believers to prove the truth of Christian Doctrine or of the Christian Church Miracles are unnecessary . Now the Answer of H. T. is quite from the point , when he tells us that they are necessary for other ends . And yet it is not true , that Signs and Miracles are necessary to confirm the immediate care and providence of God over his Church , sith God doth by his ordinary provision either of Teachers , or Christian Princes shew his immediate care and providence over his Church , and by his daily works of the motion of the Sun , and other acts of governing the World demonstrates his omnipotence : nor by his Miracles and Signs hath he shewed so much his immediate care and providence over his Church for the guiding and protecting of them , as his care of unbelievers by bringing them into his Church . And it is true , that there are many dis-believers still , the more 's the pity , and if God did see it good it would be a blessed hing if he did vouchsafe the gift of doing Miracles to convert the Indians Moors , Tartars , to the faith of Christ , and we wish it were true which the Jesuits boast of Francis Xavier his Miracles in the East Indies , though Franciscus a victoria relect. 5. Sect. 2. and Josephus Acosta lib. 4. de Indorum salute cap. 4. 12 , Blab out that which gives us cause to think that the Relations are but feigned things tending to magnifie the Pope and the Jesuits , there being no such evidence of those things from any persons of credit , who have traded or travelled into those parts . But be they what they will , it is certain God never intended Miracles to prove the Popes Supremacy or the verity of the Roman Church , but the Christian faith , and therefore till both or either of them be proved from Scripture , if we be disbelievers we must be disbelievers still , knowing this , that if there should be never so great Miracles in shew done by Popes or Friers , yet we are bound not to believe them without proof of their Doctrine from Scripture , and that if any though an Angel from Heaven preach any other Gospel than that which is written , he is to be held accursed , Gal. 1. 8 , 9. And that Miracles are not necessary for proving our calling while we preach the Scripture-doctrine , as Bellarmine scribles lib. 4. de not is Eccles. cap. 14. But on the other side , if Papists do not stick onely to Scripture , nor will be tried by it , it is necessary they should produce Miracles of their Popes and Prelates to verifie their claim or new Gospel , of which they are altogether desti●●te , and have nothing to allege but a company of Fables concerning some foolish Friers , such as Francis , Dominick , &c. upon the report of silly superstitious Women and doting companions of them , or some jugling tricks in corners done by cheating Priests and Jesuits , which serve for no other purpose but to prove the Priests to be Knaves , and their Popish Proselytes that believe them to be fools . And we have cause to press them as in the next Objection , Why do not then your Priests do Miracles ? we would be glad to see some of their doing . To which H. T. saith , Answ. Because of your incredulity as our Saviour told she Jews , St. Matth. 17. 19 Yet they do many in Gods appointed time and place ( as the Records of the Church will testifie ) though not to satisfie your sinfull curiosity . See Francis a Sancta Clara in his Paralipomena , who recounts many great and evident Miracles . I reply , if our incredulity be the onely reason of their not doing them among us , yet me thinks they should do them in Italy and Spain where men have ●aith in them : But except of a few tales of Philip Nerius , Ignatius Loyala , Francisca Teresa , Isidore of Madrid an Husbandman , and some other late canonized Saints long after their death sworn by some admirers of them , or credulous receivers of reports concerning things of them not openly done and commonly known as the Miracles of Christ and his Apostles were , I hear of none . The Paralipomena of Franciscus a Sancta Clara or Davenport , who endeavoured to reconcile the nine and thirty Articles of the Church of England with the Doctrine of the Church of Rome , that is , Light with Darkness , a little afore these Wars , I never saw , nor do I expect to finde any thing from such a man but fraud and falshood , who had the face to endeavour to draw the Articles purposely framed against the Popish Doctrine to a sense consistent with it . What Justus Lipsius writ of the Miracles done by the Idol at Halles , and Zichem , Turselin of the Chapel at Lauretto , and such like Relations , there is no man that heeds the Scripture will give any credit to them , but take them either as fictions or illusions of Satan to confirm men in the idolatrous Worship of the Virgin Mary , and to promote the Priests gain , which is a great part of the Roman Religion . But the frequent Impostures of Papists in this kinde , as of the Blood of Christ at the Abby of Hales , that of Boxley Abby , and the holy Maid of Kent , related by Speed in his Chronicle of Henry the eighth , at Orleans by Gray Friers related by Sleidan , Com. lib. 9. at Bruxels related by Meteran , lib. 10. hist. Belg. that of the Boy of Bilson near Wolverhampton in Stafford-shire which is related in a Book of that thing and persons yet alive can testifie of the Priests deceit in it , with many more , give just cause to discredit all such Narrations as meer jugling tricks . Nor have the Legends of Saints , which this man calls the Records of the Church any better credit with the more ingenuous of their own Church , of whom though some mince the matter , calling them Pious Frauds , as if Piety might be upheld by Lyes , yet Ludovicus Vives freely censured those that made them to have had a Brasen forehead , and those that believed them a Leaden heart . And therefore it is the more necessary for their Priests to let us see their Miracles , not to satisfie our curiosity , but our consciences , if they will have us converted from disbelief in their Lord God the Pope , ( as in the Canon Law be is termed ) there being nothing in the Scripture to prove the Roman Churches verity or infallibility , or the Popes Supremacy , as will appear by examining the seventh Article , to which I now hasten , which is intituled , The Popes Supremacy asserted .

ARTIC. VII . The Popes Supremacy is an Innovation .

The Pope or Bishop of Rome's Supremacy or Headship of the whole Church of God is not proved by H. T.

SECT. I.

Neither is it proved nor probable that Peter was Bishop of Rome , or that he was to have a Successour .

Our Tenet , saith H. T. is that the Pope or Bishop of Rome is the true Successour of St. Peter and Head of the whole Church of God , which hath in part been proved already by our Catalogue of chief Pastours ( who were all Popes of Rome ) and by the Councils of all Ages , approved by them , and owning them for such , and is yet farther proved thus .

Answ. THat Peter was Pope of Rome hath been said , but never yet proved but by the tradition of the Ancients , who might be as easily deceived in that as they were about Christ's age , the keeping of Easter , and many other things . Those very men who relate Peter's sitting at Rome as Bishop do not agree about his immediate Successour , whether Linus , or Clemens , or Cletus , as H. T. confesseth here pag. 52. And the relation it self is so inconsistent with that which Paul saith , that by consent he and Peter agreed that Peter should go to the Jews , and had the Gospel of the Circumcision committed to him , his not saluting Peter in his Epistle to the Romans , his being at Antioch , and according to Luke , and Paul in other places so long a time as they mention in the Acts of the Apostles , and the Epistle to the Galatians , makes it altogether improbable that he should be Bishop at Rome such a time as they say he was , and be put to death in Nero's time as the tradition insisted on bears in hand . Nor was it agreeable to Peter's Office appointed by Christ to be as a fixed Pastour in one Place . And if he were settled in any place it is more probable it was at Antioch , where Paul mentions him to have been , than at Rome , nor of his translation of his Seat from Antioch to Rome is there any proof , but what is by such tradition , as in this and other things appears to be very uncertain and unlikely . Yet were it yielded that Peter was Bishop or chief Pastour , how will it be proved that he was to have a Successour ? Paul it is certain was at Rome , and did while he was there , undoubtedly execute the Office of a Pastour , yet Popes do not challenge themselves to be Paul's but Peter's Successours , however they put Paul's Sword in their Arms with Peter's Keys , and in their Writings say the Church of Rome was founded by Peter and Paul , and use Paul's name with Peter's in their Sentences . Nor can indeed in any true sense the Pope of Rome be termed Peter's Successour . For if he be his Successour , he is Successour in his Work or in his Power . The Work of the Apostle Peter was by preaching the Gospel to found Churches to Christ , and to that end was to go to several places ; but the Pope of Rome succeeds not in this , he neither goes up and down unless in a pompous Procession , or to a worse end , nor preacheth the Gospel , nor founds any Churches thereby , nor doth think it his business , but to stay at Rome , and there to live in pomp , and wealth , and luxury , and to lord it tyrannously over the Flock of God . Nor is he Successour in his power . Peter had power to give the Holy Ghost , Acts 8. to strike Ananias and Sapphira dead , Acts 5. But the Pope cannot do these things . Nor in the Government of the whole Church . For this Peter onely had not , nor above other Apostles , but together with the rest . Nor was Peter's or the Apostles power any such visible Monarchy as the Pope claims , to receive Appeals from all Churches , to appoint Legates to hear parties in all controversies of faith , to be an infallible Judge of such controversies , an infallible Expounder of the Scriptures , determining what is Heresie , and what of Faith , calling general Councils , crowning Emperours , deposing Princes , dispensing with Oaths , Marriages of persons in near degrees , otherwise prohibited , impose Laws about Fasting , and many other things which God never appointed . Such an Headship of the whole Church as the Pope claims Peter never had . Nor is any such thing proved or so much as offer'd to be proved by H. T. his Catalogue , which how insufficient it is hath been alread shewed . I go on to his Arguments here .

SECT. II.

From being the Foundation , Matth 16. 18. and feeding the Sheep of Christ , John 21. 15 , 16 , 17. neither Peter's nor Popes Supremacy is proved .

The first Argument , saith H. T. is this , The foundation hath a preheminence of firmitude and stability before the rest of the building which is founded on it , and the Shepherd is Head of his Flock , and above his Sheep . But St. Peter next after Christ himself was the Foundation of the whole Church , and Pastour of the whole Flock : therefore St. Peter next after Christ had a preheminence over the whole Church , and was Head of the whole Flock , and above all the other Sheep , of which number were the rest of the Apostles .

Answ. THe Headship and pastoral power which H. T. would prove to be due to the Pope is not a guidance onely by teaching , but a princely dominion , so as that all may appeal to him , none from him , his sentence must be obeyed by all under pain of damnation in matters of faith , and must be judged infallible , and 't is likely he holds with Bellarmine , lib. 4. de Rom. pont. cap. 5. that if the Pope should erre by commanding vices , or forbidding virtues , the Church should be bound to believe vices to be good and virtues to be evil , unless it would sin against conscience ; and if he dissent herein from Bellarmine , yet in the Canon Law distinct. 40. such an absolute dominion is given him , that though he should draw innumerable souls with him to Hell , no man must say to him , Why dost thou so ? and some Flatterers of the Pope have given him all power in Heaven and Earth , yea , and more than Christ had , in Purgatory also , allowing no Appeal from the Pope to God , as having one Consistory with God , calling him our Lord God the Pope ; nor did I ever read or hear that any Pope hath by any Censure corrected such blasphemous Titles , but they have by their commands contrary to Gods , dispensing with his Laws , deposing Emperours , and innumerable other practises shewed that they owned such power as theirs . Now sure this power was never given to Peter , nor any such like power under the term of a Foundation , which is for the ruine , not for the establishing of the Church , nor under the charge of feeding , especially of anothers Sheep , of whom he is no Owner or Lord . Is this to feed Christ's Sheep , to do what he will with them , appoint what Penance he will , put what Laws he please on the Sheep , to excommunicate , deprive of Civil and Ecclesiastical Dignity and Office at pleasure ? such a Supremacy is indeed so like that which Paul foretold concerning the man of sin , 2 Thess. 2. 4. that he opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God , or that is worshipped : so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God , shewing himself that he is God ; that till I meet with some more likely than the Popes to be there meant , I shall take it be a part of my Creed , that the Pope of Rome is the very Man of sin there meant . And for this H. T. who gives such a supreme Headship to Peter and the Pope over the other Apostles , so as to make him a Shepherd , to rule , excommunicate , deprive , John , James , Paul , as his Sheep , it is so monstrously false an Assertion as none but he that hath sold himself to teach Lyes would ever assert it . As for his Syllogism it is most grosly naught , as having four terms at least . The term [ hath a preheminence of firmitude and stability before the rest of the building which is founded on it ] being different from this in the Conclusion , [ had a preheminence over the whole Church ] and so likewise are these [ the Foundation ] and [ the Foundation of the whole Church ] and therefore the Major should have been [ the Foundation of the whole Church hath a preheminence over the whole Church ] the Minor thus , [ Peter next after Christ is the Foundation of the whole Church ] and the Conclusion thus , [ Peter next after Christ had a preheminence over the whole Church ] or else thus , [ The Foundation hath a preheminence of firmitude and stability before the whole Church . But Peter next after Christ is the Foundation , therefore Peter had a preheminence of firmitude and stability before the whole Church ] now neither of these Conclusions had been the point to be proved , but might have been granted , and the Assertion not gained . And in the other Metaphor the Syllogism hath the same fault . For in the Major it is [ Head of his Flock , and above his Sheep ] in the Minor it is [ Pastour of the whole Flock ] and in the Conclusion not [ Head of his Flock and above his Sheep ] but [ Head of the whole Flock , and above all the other Sheep ] and there is added too this tail of which there is no offer of proof [ of which number were the rest of the Apostles . ] Now to discover besides the fallacy in the form the deceit in the matter of this Argument , it is to be considered , 1. That the Metaphor of a Foundation doth not at all import Rule or Government , but inchoation and support , and therefore is unfit to prove that Rule and Power of Government which H. T. derives from it . 2. That he that is a Shepherd is Head or Lord of his own Sheep , but a Shepherd is not Lord or Head of anothers Sheep of which he is no Owner ; and therefore though he is to rule and feed them , yet he is not to rule them after his own will , but the Owners , nor is he to take the profit of the Sheep , but the Owner is to have it , the Shepherd is not to look , but for his pay and encouragement according to the will or contract of the Owner . Now the Flock of Christ were none of Peter's Sheep , nor were all the Sheep of Christ universally taken to be fed by Peter , for then he should feed , that is , rule himself , who was one of the Flock , and so excommunicate himself , absolve himself ▪ and sith the Pope hath Peter's power , if he be one of the Sheep of Christ , by this Doctrine he is to rule , that is , to excommunicate , absolve , and deprive himself . And for the other Metaphor of a Foundation it hath the like absurdity : For if Peter be the Foundation of the whole Church , and the term [ Foundation ] imports the ruling of the whole Church , Peter , who is a part of the Church , is the Foundation of himself , and the Pope of himself , and sith he is the Vicar of Christ , he is in stead of Christ to himself , and so hath preheminence over himself , and the Pope in like manner ; yea , unless they deny the blessed Virgin Mary to have been one of Christ's Sheep , they must assert Peter , and after him the Pope to have been the Foundation and Shepherd of the blessed Virgin Mary , to have had a power to rule , excommunicate and absolve her . The truth is this , the pressing of a Metaphor beyond that for what it is used draweth with it many absurdities ; and therefore the Metaphors of Foundation and Building , Shepherd and Sheep can infer no more than that use of these which the Authour of the Speech intended by them , which what it is will be considered by examining the Texts brought for proof . And for the Arguments , if they did conclude the thing in question they should be thus framed , or to this purpose . He that is the Foundation or Builder of the whole Church of Christ , hath supreme unerring dominion or rule of the whole Church of Christ . But such was Peter , and by consequence the Pope of Rome . Ergo. Again , He that is to feed all the Sheep of Christ hath dominion or rule as aforesaid . But that was Peter , and consequently the Pope of Rome is to do . Ergo. In both I should deny the Major understood of the under Foundation , Builder , and Shepherd , though it should be yielded by concession of an impossibility , yet he should not have such a supreme unerring Rule thereby : and I deny the Minor also , and in both as they stand or should stand , there are many Propositions in these and his forms expressed or implied , which are apparently false ▪ As , 1. That every Foundation of the Church hath preheminence of firmitude above every Building founded on it . There were some as firm in the Faith as the Apostles , and of the Apostles some as firm or more firm than Peter . 2. That every Foundation or Builder of the Church hath rule over it . 3. That the Metaphor of a Foundation or Builder do note Rule or Dominion . 4. That as applied to Peter , they note in him supreme unerring Rule or Dominion . 5. That he that is a Shepherd is Head of his Flock . 6. That he is above his Flock . 7. That the person that is bid to feed Christ's Sheep is bid to feed , the whole Flock of Christ universally taken . 8. That the charge of feeding them is as much , as have supreme dominion , be a visible Monarch over them . 9. That the Bishop of Rome is Peter's Successour in that charge and power which Christ committed to him over his whole Church . 10. That what is said of Peter in this point is true of every Bishop of Rome be he never so unlearned and vicious . All which I have distinctly noted , that it may appear upon how many suppositions the Popes Supremacy hangs , and yet how loose , and empty of proof from Scripture or Reason the Disputes of Papists are about this which is with them a fundamental point of their Religion , in so much that were it not for the heavy curse , that is befallen Papists , that sith they receive not the love of the truth , that they might be saved , they should believe Lyes , that they might be damned , 2 Thess. 2. 10 , 11 , 12. it could not be that understanding persons among them should ever assent to the claimed Supremacy of the Pope over the whole Church upon these Reasons .

But let us view what is said here . The Major is proved , because the Foundation supporteth the rest of the Building ( we are built on the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , Jesus Christ himself being the chief Cornerstone , Ephes. 2. 20. ) and the Shepherd hath a power to govern his whole Flock .

Answ. The Argument framed hence must be this , That which supporteth the Building hath a preheminence of firmitude and stability before the rest of the Building which is founded on it . But so doth every Foundation . Ergo. But the Major is not true of personal Metaphorical Foundations , of which we now speak , not of material proper Foundations . A man may be a Foundation of a Common-wealth , and support it by his wisdom , and example , and authority , and yet not have a preheminence of firmitude and stability above that Common-wealth founded on him or it ; and so in the founding of the Church , a man that founds it may fall away , and yet the Church stand firm . Neither is the Minor true of every personal metaphorical Foundation , he may be said to be a Foundation , that is , begin a Church or Common-weath who doth not after support it . The Text Ephes. 2. 20. proves neither of the Propositions , nor do I know to what purpose it is produced , except to prove Peter to have been a Foundation : But then it proves not Peter alone , but the rest of the Apostles and Prophets to have been Foundations , and so proves no preheminence to Peter above them , which is the Assertion of this Authour . But to me it is doubtfull whether the Apostles are termed Foundations . 1. Because this seems to be appropriated to Christ , 1 Cor. 3. 11. 2. Because it is not said , Ye are built on the Foundations , but the Foundation , and therefore seems to have this sense , ye are built on that Foundation which the Apostles and Prophets have laid , not , which they are , and so the genitives are of the efficient , not of the subject , and the Foundation must be that Doctrine or truth they declared , of which Christ , that is , the Doctrine or Faith of Christ is the chief Corner-stone . Nor is this against that which is Revel. 21. 14. that the names of the twelve Apostles are written in the twelve Foundations of the Wall of the new Jerusalem . For that may be said , because they were chief workmen in the laying of the Foundation , as Paul saith of himself , 1 Cor. 3. 10. according to the custom of master-builders , whose names are written in their work , not because they were themselves the Foundations , as the twelve Tribes , vers. 12. in the twelve gates , because by them entrance was in the Old Testament , they being prime beginners of the people of Israel . Yet if they be said to be Foundations , they were Foundations as the Prophets were , to wit , by their preaching : nor doth their being Foundations prove their Rule or Dominion any more than the Prophets being Foundations ; and certainly Peter is here made no more a Foundation than the rest . The other proof seems to be this . He that hath power to feed and govern his whole Flock is Head of his Flock , and above his Sheep . But every Shepherd hath such such power . Ergo. The Major is denied . A Parish-priest hath power to feed and govern his whole Flock , of which a King may be a part , and yet he is not Head of the King , nor above him in dignity or authority , nor perhaps in knowledge . And the like may be said of his Physician .

SECT. III.

The Text Matth. 16. 18. proves not any Rule or Dominion in Peter over the Apostles , but a promise of special success in his preaching .

H. T. adds , The Minor is proved , Thou art Peter , and upon this Rock will I build my Church , St. Matth. 16. 18. ( the whole was built on him . )

Answ. THe Argument seems to be this . He who is the Rock on which Christ would build his Church he was next after Christ the Foundation of the whole Church . But Peter was the Rock on which Christ would build his Church . Ergo. In which there are these things supposed . 1. That the term [ Rock ] is as much as a Foundation , and so it is not the absolute quality of firmness onely , but also the relative use of a stone or a rock in building , which is imported by it . 2. That the term [ Rock ] notes Peter's person . 3. That it notes Peter's person alone . 4. That it notes Peter's person as being a Rock so as no other , but Christ , was a Rock as he was . 5. That the Building upon this Rock notes Peter's person in respect of his singular Rule not given to other Apostles . 6. That he was the Foundation next after Christ . 7. That the Church comprehends the militant Church visible . 8. That it notes the whole Church of Christ even the Apostles themselves : each of these is to be examined . 1. The term [ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ] here used , whether it be translated [ Rock or stone ] I deny not to denote not so much the absolute property of stability , as the relative use of a foundation in a Building . 2. Though some of the Ancients make Christ the Rock , others the confession of Christ , or the faith in him , which Peter had professed , yet by reason of the occasion of the speech , and the Preface [ I say unto thee ] and the commemoration of his Name [ Thou art Peter ] and the allusion to that Name in the choice of the word [ 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or Cephas in Syriack ] I deny not that by [ this Rock or stone ] is meant Peter's person , nor thirdly , that it notes his person alone , nor fourthly , that it notes Peter's person in a singular manner , so as that there is something peculiar to Peter intimated thereby . But I deny , 1. That it notes Peter's singular Rule or Dominion not given to other Apostles . 2. That he was so a Foundation next after Christ as that the other Apostles were laid on him as a stone supporting them , as is the conceit of some of the Romanists . 3. That the term [ Church ] notes the visible Church as visible . 4. That it notes the whole visible Church universally taken . And each of these I prove thus .

1. If the term [ Rock or Stone ] note Peter's person as becoming a Foundation or Foundation-stone by such an act as notes not any Rule or Dominion , and was common to other Apostles with Peter , then it doth not note Peter's singular Rule or Dominion not given to other Apostles : but the term [ Rock or Stone ] notes Peter's person , as becoming a Foundation or Foundation-stone by such an act as notes not any Rule or Dominion , and was common to other Apostles with Peter . Ergo. The Major is of it self evident . The Minor is thus proved . That act whereby Peter's person became a Foundation or Foundation-stone was Christ's building his Church on him . But that act notes not any Rule or Dominion , and was common to other Apostles with Peter . Ergo. The Major is of it self evident . The Minor is proved thus ▪ The act whereby Christ built his Church on Peter was Peter's preaching of the same Doctrine which he professed . But that act notes not any Rule or Dominion , and was common to other Apostles with Peter . Ergo. The Minor I take for granted : Papists do not ascribe Rule or Dominion to Friers that preach , and other Apostles preached Christ as well as Peter . Now that Christ builded his Church on Peter by his preaching is proved thus . That act by which and no other the Church of Christ is said to be built , is that act whereby Christ built his Church on Peter . But it is the preaching of the Doctrine that Peter professed and no other act by which the Church of Christ is said to be built . The Major is evident of it self . The Minor is proved , 1. By those places which speak of building the Church , they still import teaching not rule , as appears by an induction , Acts 9. 31. Rom 15. 20. 1 Cor. 8. 1 , 10. & 10. 23. & 14 4. 17. Gal. 2. 18. 1 Thess. 5. 11. 1 Pet. 2. 5. and the compound Verb used Acts 20. 30. 1 Cor. 3. 10 , 12. Ephes. 2. 20 , 22. Col. 2. 7. Jude 20. and the Noun Rom. 14. 19. & 15. 2. 1 Cor. 3. 9. & 14. 3 , 5 , 12. 2 Cor. 10. 8. & 12. 19. & 13. 10. Ephes. 4. 12 , 16 , 29. do all shew that the Building of the Church or Saints is by instruction , not by rule , the work being sometimes mutual , as 1 Thess. 5. 11. Ephes. 4. 10. Jude 20. and sometimes the matter by which the building is , being for informing and teaching , as Ephes. 4. 29. and sometimes the Builders are termed Teachers , as Ephes 4. 11 , 12. and that Text Ephes. 2. 20. ( which H. T. allegeth ) the Building being by Prophets as well as Apostles can be understood of no other Building than by teaching , therefore so also must be understood Matth. 16. 18.

2. It is further proved from 1 Cor. 3. 10. where the Apostle tells the Corinthians , that as a wise Master-builder he had laid the Foundation , and that Foundation which he laid was Jesus Christ , vers. 11 ▪ and vers. 5. he shews how that was , to wit , in that he was a Minister by whom with Apollos the Corinthians believed , and that thereby they were God's Building , and God's Husbandry , vers. 9. to wit , by his planting , Apollos watering , and God's increase , vers. 6. which can be referred to no other acts but teaching or preaching of the faith of Christ , in which Paul counts himself a Master-builder , that built not on Peter 's foundation , or any others , Rom. 15. 20. and his edifying is there the effect of his Evangelizing or Preaching the Gospel , and consequently the building of the Church , Matth. 16. 18. must be interpreted to be by preaching the Gospel .

3. It is further proved by those places which make the Foundation of the Building special Doctrine , such as are Heb. 6. 1. 1 Cor. 3. 11. Rom. 15. 20. whence it follows , that the building of the Church is by Doctrine , and Matth. 16. 18. must be understood of it , not of Rule or Dominion . Yea , the Council of Trent it self , Sess. 3. terms the Creed the firm and onely Foundation , against which the Gates of Hell shall not prevail ; and thereby intimates the Foundation , Matth. 16. 18. to be chief points of Christian Doctrine .

4. By the appositeness of the Phrase to signifie planting and increasing of knowledge and strengthening by teaching , not imposing commands by way of Rule or Empire . No where is a Prince said to edifie , but Prophets , Apostles , and other Teachers ; nor is Excommunication , Ordination , calling of Councils , and such acts as shew Dominion termed Edification , but teaching and reproving , 2 Cor. 13. 10. therefore such princely power as the Popes claim cannot be meant by building Christ's Church , Matth. 16. 18.

5. The same may be proved from the matter of the Promise , Matth. 16. 18. which is not of what power Christ would give to Peter , but of what Christ would do by him , and consequently cannot be understood of supreme power , but of singular work .

6. The end of the power , which the Pope claims , is for the exalting of himself , and his visible Monarchy , but the thing promised Matth. 16. 18. is not the advancement of Peter , but the use of him for setting up his Church . The Popes power is ( as all experience witnesseth ) for the destruction of the Church , not for edification ; and therefore is not meant Matth. 16. 18.

If any say , How then hath Peter something singular ascribed to him ? I answer , in that he did first begin to lay the Foundation of the Churches after Christ's Ascension by his preaching , as Acts 2. & 3. & 4. & 10. appears : and seems to be observed by Peter , as the accomplishment of Christ's Promise , Acts 15. 7. who used Peter at the first more eminently than any other , though afterwards he chose Paul , who did labour more abundantly than the rest , 1 Cor. 15. 10.

2. The second thing that Peter was not so a Foundation next after Christ , as that the other Apostles were laid on him , as a stone supporting them , is proved 1. From Ephes. 2. 20. where the building of the Church is said to be on the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , Jesus Christ himself being the chief Corner-stone , in whom the whole Building compacted together groweth to an holy Temple in the Lord ; therefore the Apostles and Prophets have equal place in the Building , and it is Christ , and not Peter , in whom all the Building is fitly framed together . 2. From Revel. 21. 14. where the Wall of the City of new Jerusalem is said to have twelve Foundations , and not one singular one supporting the rest , but the Foundations are as many as the Apostles , none of whom is the Foundation of the rest .

3. That the term [ Church ] Mat. 16. 18. notes not the visible Church as visible , is proved , 1. In that it is termed Christ's Church , but the visible as visible is not termed Christ's Church , but as it is invisible by faith and Christ's Spirit dwelling in it . 2. In that Christ promised , that the Gates of Hell should not prevail against it . But they have and do prevail against the visible Church as visible , many visible Churches have been corrupted and perish .

4. That [ my Church , Matth. 16. 18. ] is not the whole Church universally taken is proved in that 1. Then the whole Church universally taken should be built by or on Peter , but that cannot be true , sith a great part of the Church specially of the Gentiles was built by Paul , and he denies he built on anothers Foundation , Rom. 15. 20. 1 Cor. 3. 10. 2. Then Peter should be built on himself , sith Peter was part of the universal Church , and the Virgin Mary should be built on Peter , which are absurd .

Which things being evinced it appears , 1. That this was a Promise to the singular person of Peter of a singular success of his preaching which no other had , and so belongs not to any Successour . 2. That it is not a Promise of Government and Jurisdiction , ( in which H. T. placeth Peter's Headship , pag. 75. ) for that Christ expresly forbade , but of singular honour to Peter in his happy success in preaching the Gospel , recompensing his readiness to acknowledge Christ . And this Christ had elsewhere promised , Luke 5. 10. under the Promise of being a Fisher of m●n . Now this is nothing to the Dominion claimed by the Pope . As for being a Rock on which the Church of Christ might be built ; we would most gladly it were true , that the Pope were such , we should then honour him and kiss his Toe : but as he is and hath been for many hundreds of years , he is to be judged the Butcher who hath slain the Saints of God , and a tyrannical Antichrist domineering over the Church of Christ .

I marvel that H. T. saith nothing here of the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven , which the Pope is painted with , as having them in his hands , and by which he was wont to claim his power . But perhaps he findes it too short for the proof of that peerless power which the Pope claims , sith even in the Council of Trent and the Roman Catechism in handling the Priests and Bishops power of Absolution , the Keys are in their hands , and so it is no more than others have beside the Pope : therefore I need not insist on that here , sith H. T. hath thought fit to omit it .

SECT. IV.

John 21. 16 , 17 , 18. proves not Peter's Supremacy over the whole Church .

But he adds , And for a Reward of Peter's special dilection ( for he loved Christ more than all the rest of the Apostles ) he said to him , Feed my Lambs , Feed my Lambs , Feed my Sheep , St. John 21. 17 , 18. ( a Commission to feed all without exception . )

Answ. THe Argument seems to be this , He to whom , as a Reward of his special dilection , by which he loved Christ more tha● all the rest of the Apostles ; Christ said , Feed my Lambs , Feed my Lambs , Feed my Sheep , St. John 21. 17 , 18. and thereby gave him a Commission to feed all without exception was Pastour of the whole Flock . But this was Peter . Ergo. Here four things are supposed , whereof not one is true . 1. That Peter loved Christ more than all the rest of the Apostles . For neither were all the rest of the Apostles there , nor doth Christ or Peter say , he did love Christ more than they did , but onely puts a question , which may either have this sense , Lovest thou me more than thou lovest them ? or more than they love me ? And this probably was put to him to minde him of his former forward Profession , and shamefull denial . 2. That Christ made Peter a Head , or gave him a supreme Dominion under the term of Feeding . But , 1. The words are 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ; now 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 signifies not to rule , but onely to provide pasture , or to eate , as 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 also doth , Jude 12. being intransitive : both of them where they are enjoyned to Apostles , Bishops , or Presbyters , note teaching , not imposing Laws on persons , excommunicating , depriving , and such like acts , as Popes claim as belonging to them as Pastours , as may appear by viewing the places Ephes. 4. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. 1 Pet. 5. 1 , 2 , 3. Acts 20. 28 , 29 , 30 , 31. Mark 6. 34. 1 Pet. 2. 25. and therefore if it prove Supremacy of Power , Jurisdiction , and Government in Peter , it proves every Bishop , and Presbyter to be also a supreme Head , and Governour over the Church of God . 2. That Peter had no such Headship of Government , and Jurisdiction given him in those words John 21. 17 , 18. is proved by the description of the persons to whom these acts of feeding were to done , they are the little Lambs and Sheep of Christ , not Goats , now to the Lambs and Sheep of Christ no act of lordly rule , such as imposing Laws , excommunicating , depriving , or the like acts , in which the Pope placeth his power of Jurisdiction could be lawfully done , nor did Peter any such acts : but teaching them , being guides to them , directing , exhorting and comforting them , ( which the Pope regards not to do ) were to be done to them . Wherefore it is plain , that lordly rule was not appointed by Christ , but fatherly care and tenderness in that injunction , and that which Christ enjoyned in his Commission to Peter is that which the Pope neither regards to do , no● thinks it his work ; but another thing , to wit , princely dominion , which Christ forbade . 3. The third thing supposed is , that because the terms are indefinite , [ my Lambs , my Sheep ] therefore he meant all his Lambs and Sheep , even the whole Catholick Church ; which if true , then it is false which Paul saith , Gal. 2 7. that the Gospel of the uncircumcision was committed to him , and the Gospel of the circumcisiou unto Peter , and vers. 9. James , and Cephas , and John , did sin against Christ's command in giving to Paul and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship , that Paul and Barnabas should go to the Heathen , and James , Cephas , and John to the Circumcision , and Paul did ill to style himself the Teacher of the Gentiles , 1 Tim. 2. 6. and he should have boasted in another mans line or rule , 2 Cor. 10. 15. sith all places had been within Peter's line or rule , and he did ill to say , Rom. 15. 15. that the grace of God was given to him that he should be the Minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles , and never mention Peter's Supremacy , no not in that very Epistle which he wrote to the Church of Rome so much as once naming him , who was ( if Papists say true ) the Universal Bishop and Bishop of Rome , and sate there at that time , when he wrote that Epistle : nor doth Paul salute him , when he salutes many of less note . As for that which H. T. infers from the not exempting of any , therefore he comprehends all the Sheep and Lambs of Christ , it is very frivolous . For an indefinite term is not all one with an universal , unless the matter so require it , but in such kinde of speeche● as these it notes onely indefinite particulars , as Gal. 2. 10. they agreed that we should remember the poor , that is , so many as we could ; and when Christ bids , Matth. 10. 8. Heal the sick , cleanse the lepers , raise the dead ; it is meant without exceeption of any , yet not an injunction to heal every individual , or to raise every dead person , but such as there was occasion of healing and raising . And when Mark 16. 15. the Apostles are bid to preach the Gospel to every creature ; the Command is to preach to any one without exception , yet not to every individual , which had been impossible ; so here Peter is bid to feed any indefinitely , yet not all universally ; which had been an impossible task . 4. It is supposed that John 21. 16 , 17. was a Commission conferring power , authority , rule , and that over the very Apostles themselves , and that as a privilege conferred on Peter for his special dilection of Christ . Whereas the thing enjoyned him is work requiring skill and care , not dignity or authority of empire , and hath nothing in it of jurisdiction , as a Judge or Commander , but of faithfulness and diligence as a servant and guide . And in this the Apostles were equal to him . H. T. himself confesseth here , pag. 97. The Apostles were equal in their calling to the Apostleship ; to which this of feeding the Sheep of Christ belonged ; and therefore Peter reckons himself but a fellow Elder , and requires other Elders to feed as well as himself , 1 Pet. 5. 1 , 2. & Acts 20. 28. the Elders of Ephesus are appointed 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , to feed the Church of God , ( which is as large an exppression as is John 21. 16 , 17. and therefore doth infer as much Headship in them as in Peter ) And Paul counted himself not behinde the very chiefest Apostles , 2 Cor. 12. 11. and Peter added to ●im nothing , Gal. 2. 6. and therefore Paul derived nothing from him , but was equal to him . And to bid Peter to feed the Apostles had been to bid him feed the Shepherds . The Doctrine of the Gospel is not termed the Doctrine of Peter , but of the Apostles in common , Acts 2. 41. even when Peter had converted persons , and they were together , nor did they go to preach with Peter as their Shepherd , or by his direction , but by agreement , Gal. 2. 9. yea , they sent Peter to Samaria , Acts 8. 14. nor was this work of Feeding , John 21. 16. 17. a privilege conferred on Peter for his special dilection , but a task enjoyned to him because of his more open denial , three times charged on him , as he thrice denied Christ , and used as a stay of Peter's weakness , rather than a mark of his worthiness , much less a proof of his Supremacy .

SECT. V.

Peter's charge to confirm his Brethren , and his priority of nomination , prove not his Supremacy .

THe second Argument of H. T. is this , He that is by Gods appointment to confirm others in the faith , and is generally set b●fore others in the Scripture , must needs be greater than those others in power and dignity . But St. Peter by our Saviour's own appointment was to confirm the Apostles in the faith , and is generally preferred before them all in the holy Scriptures , therefore St. Peter was above the rest of the Apostles in power and dignity , and therefore the Head and Primate of the rest .

Answ. The Conclusion it self might be granted , and yet the supreme Headship not proved . The power ( said Hart Conf. with Rainold , chap. 1. divis . 2. ) which we mean to the Pope by this Title of Supreme Head is , that the Government of the whole Church throughout the World doth depend of him : in him doth lie the power of judging and determining all Causes of Faith , of ruling Councils as President , and ratifying their D●crees ; of ordering and confirming Bishops and Pastours ; of deciding Causes brought him by Appeals from all the coasts of the Earth , of reconciling any that are excommunicate , of excommunicating , suspending , or inflicting other Censures and Penalties on any that offend , yea , on Princes and Nations ; finally , of all things of the like sort for governing of the Church , even whatsoever toucheth either preaching of Doctrine or practising of Discipline in the Church of Christ . Now a person may be above others in power and dignity , yea , the Head and Primate of them , and yet not have this power . The Lord Chief Justice of one of the Benches , the Speaker of the Parliament , Chair-man of a Committee , Duke of Venice , President in a Council of Bishops , the Head of a College , the Dean of a Cathedral , may have power and dignity above other Justices of the same Bench , over Counsellours in the same Council , over Knights and Burgesses in the same Parliament , Prelates in the same Council , Fellows in the same College , Canons in the same Chapter , and in a sort Primates and Heads of the rest , yet not such supreme Heads over the rest , as the Popes claim to be . Yea , notwithstanding such power , he may be limited so as that he cannot act without them in making any Laws , or passing any Sentence binding , but they may act without him , and legally proceed against him . So that the Conclusion might be yielded ; and yet the Popes Supremacy not proved . The truth is , the Pope claims such a vast and monstrous power in Heaven , and Earth , and Hell , as exceeds the abilities of any meer mortal man to discharge , and is , as experience shews , the Introduction to a world of miseries and oppresons . But let us view his proof of the power of Peter , which H. T. ascribes to him .

T●e Major , saith he , is proved , because the stronger is not confirmed by the weaker , nor the less worthy to be set before the more worthy , generally speaking .

Answ. This doth not prove his Major , for a person may be weaker and less worthy , and yet above others in power and dignity . Queen Elizabeth was a Woman , and so weaker in respect of her Sex , and perhaps less worthy in respect of parts than some of her great Commanders and Privy Counsellours . Will H. T. say she was below them in power and dignity ? Many a Father and Master may be weaker and less worthy , and yet superiour in power and dignity . Many a Prelate is stronger in knowledge and wisdom , and more worthy in respect of holy life , than many Popes , I will not onely say , than Pope Joan and Bennet the Boy , but also than Pius the second or any other of the best of their Popes ; and yet H. T. will not yield such Prelates to be above Popes in power and dignity . Me thinks he should yield Athanasius to be stronger and of more worth than Liberius , Hi●rom than Damasus , Bernard than Eugenius , and yet he would be loath to ascribe more power and dignity to them than to the Pope . Nor is it true , that the stronger is not confirmed by the weaker , whether we mean it of moral or natural strength or weakness and confirmation . Apollos was confirmed by Priscilla , David by Ab●gail , Naaman by his servant . Nor if by [ generally speaking ] be meant very frequently , is the speech true , that the more worthy is set before the less worthy . I think in the Acts of the Apostles Barnabas is more often before Paul than after , as Acts 11. 30. & 12. 25. & 13. 7. & 14. 12 , 14. & 15. 12. I am sure in the Holy Ghost's Precept , Acts 13. 2. whereupon they were ordained , and in the Decree of the Apostles , Acts 15. 25. Barnabas is first . Will H. T. say Barnabas was more worthy than Paul ? Me thinks a man should be ashamed to utter such frivolous toys in so weighty a matter , and fear to ascribe to a sinfull man so great and immense a Dominion on such slight pretences .

But how doth he prove his Minor ? The Minor , saith he , is proved , I have prayed for thee Peter , that thy faith fail not , and then being at length converted , confirm thy Brethren , St. Luke 22. 31. The names of the twelve Apostles are these , the first Simon who is called Peter , &c. St. Matth. 10. 2. St. Mark 3. St. Luke 2. and Acts the 1.

Answ. The Text doth not say , Confirm the Apostles in the faith , nor do we finde that they did , but that he doubted as well as they , Mark 16. 14. yea , there is mention of another Disciples believing the Resurrection afore Peter , John 20. 8 , 9. yea , Paul seems to have confirmed Peter in the faith , when he walked not with a right foot according to the truth of the Gospel , Gal. 2. 14. & Acts 14. 22. Paul and Barnabas are said to confirm the souls of the Disciples , and Judas and Silas did the same Acts 15. 32. So that this Act shewes no Headship in Peter , nor any privilege at all , much less such a supreme Headship over the Apostles , as H. T. allegeth it for , but a common duty of charity , which not onely may but must be done by an equal or inferiour , to an equal or superiour . Sure , if Paul had known of this as a Privilege in Peter he would not have said , that he went not up to the Apostles before him , nor conferred with flesh and blood , Gal. 16. 17. and that Peter added nothing to him , Gal. 2. 6. As for his being preferred generally before the rest , it is not proved by his being named before the rest : he may be named after , who is preferred before , as Paul is after Barnabas : nor do the four Texts express a general or frequent priority of nomination , three expressing but one and the same act of Christ , and the Catalogue being varied in the order of the rest , some Evangelists reckoning Andrew next Peter , sometimes James , and in like manner the order altered in some others , shews , that the order of nomination imported no Privilege : yea , s●metimes Peter is named after Andrew , John 1. 44. who had this Privilege to bring Peter to Christ , vers 41 sometimes after Paul and A●ollos , 1 Cor. 1. 12. & 3. 22. and other Apostles , 1 Cor. 9. 5. Gal. 2. 9. which shews that John and Paul understood not , that any such Primacy or Prerogative was given to Peter by his nomination first , as Papists assert thence ; for if they had they would not at any time have inverted the order . And therefore however a Primacy of order may be given to Peter , yet 1. There is no necessity we should yield the acknowledgement of it to be a Duty imposed , much less a perpetual Privilege of Right belonging to him . 2. That such Primacy proves not any Superiority of Power above the Apostles , no more than that the senior Fellow of a College is superiour in power above the rest , because he is first written in the College Book , or the Fore-man in a ●ury is superiour , because he is first called .

SECT. VI.

The late Popes of Rome are not Successours of Peter .

H. T. adds , What hath been said to prove St. Peter's Primacy proves also the Primacy of his Successour the Pope of Rome .

Answ. THe proof of a Primacy is short of the proof a Supremacy , which was the thing H. T. undertook ; there is a Primacy of order , where there is not a Supremacy of power . And the ancient Churches which gave the Bishop of Rome the primacy of order afore the Patriarchs of Antioch , Alexandria , Jerusalem , and Constantinople , that is , to sit in a general Council highest , and to have some other Privileges , yet did never acknowledge the Bishop of Rome their supreme Head , but resisted this claim , when it began to be usurped . That Primacy which was given to the Bishop of Rome was given him chiefly because of the dignity and power of the City : Peter's name was after by ambitious Popes used to serve their Design in lifting up the Roman Bishop . But the Ancients did look to the eminence of the City , as being the Seat of the Empire in their preferring of the Roman Bishops : from whence when the Seat of the Empire was translated to Constantinople , the Bishop of it was made a Patriarch , equal to the Bishop of Rome , and for a time contended for preheminence above him . It was not at first by reason of Peter's imagined Headship , or any succession to him , that the Bishop of Rome was preferred before other Patriarchs : but by reason of the amplitude and eminency of Rome , as the third Canon of the second Constantinopolitan , and the eight and twentieth of Chalcedon Councils shew . As for Succession to Peter it is contrary to Scripture , that the Apostles should have Successours as Apostles , sith they were onely to be Apostles , who were Witnesses of Christ's Resurrection , which neither the Roman Bishops , nor any after the Age in which the Apostles lived , could be . That they were either fixed Bishops of certain places , or did appoint any to succeed in their Apostleship is false . All Apostles were by special election of Christ , those that came after were by election of men , and succeeded the Apostles in preaching the Gospel , but not in Apostleship , nor did the Apostles make Bishops of certain places their Successours , but every Pastour , who preached the faith aright , was their Successour , and so are all Gospel Preachers at this day . John Calvin at Geneva did succeed Peter more truly than Pope Aldobrandin , or Barberin , or Ghisi , or any other of the Popes for many hundred of years . Till the Popes prove themselves Preachers of the Gospel as Peter was , they vainly talk of Succession to him As of late they have been they have been Successours to Simon Magus rather than to Simon Peter .

SECT. VII .

The Sayings of Fathers and Councils prove not Peter's or the Popes Supremacy .

OF the Fathers which H. T. cites for the Popes Supremacy the first is out of Damascen a late corrupt Writer , and he cites it out of Pseudo Dionysius the Areopagite's tale proved to be such by Dr. John Rainold Conf. with Hart , chap. 8. divis . 2. and from that place , in which the contrary , to what it is alleged for , to wit , Peter's Supremacy , may be evinced , in that the Authour , who ever he were , makes the power of binding and loosing to be given to all the Apostles , There saith H. T. Peter is styled the supreme and most ancient top of Divines : which though it have no credit there , being too much known of the forgeries and dreams in the Writings of Damascen , and that countefeit Dionysius : yet were it granted , that Dionysius the Arcopagite should have so written , as he saith he did , terming Peter , the supreme and most ancient top of Divines , this would not infer that he was the universal Pastour of the Church with such a power of jurisdiction , as this Authour asserts he had over the whole Church , even the Apostles themselves . For this doth not express supremacy of power , but of knowledge , and asserts his eminency for understanding Theology , to which me thinks H. T. should not annex the supremacy of jurisdiction and power , lest that some such as Aquinas , Andradius , or some other challenge the Popedom , which is seldom conferred on any for his eminence in Divinity , but rather the most learned Divines are thought unfit for the Papacy : even Cicarella relates in the Life of Sixtus the fifth , that Cardinal Sirlet , though he were a man of great learning , was rejected , as not fit to be chosen Pope ; such as Bellarmine , Tolet , Baronius , are not chosen to be Popes , but such crafty men as Paul the third , or such stout spirits as Paul the fourth , or such as are great Canonists and Politicians , that know the arts of the Papacy better than the Doctrine of Christ , are chosen for Popes , yea , men so ignorant in Divinity , and so unfit to take the charge of Souls have been chosen for Popes , that of all the Popes for many hundreds of years past there are but a very few who had knowledge in the Mystery of the Gospel , or any measure of godliness competent for a Parish Priest . Yea , Bellarmine lib. de notis Eccles. cap. 9. is feigned to assert that there may be members of the body of Christ , who are no parts of it as a living body , but onely as instruments , lest otherwise the Pope being proved evil should be uncapable of being Head of the Church in that he is no member of Christ's body , thereby making a dead equivocal member an univocal Head of the universal Church , being conscious that without that shift the Popes would all or most of them be cashiered out of the Church of Christ as not so much as parts of Christ's body , much less Heads , by reason of their notorious pride , luxury , cruelty , perfidiousness , covetousness , blasphemy , deceit , and whatsoever vice might shew them to be children of the Devil . Nor do the words of Irenaeus lib. 3. advers. haeres . cap. 3. in the second Age , in which it is said , All Churches round about ought to resort to the Roman Church by reason of her more powerfull Principality , and that it was the greatest and most ancient , founded by Peter and Paul . For whether the word convenire be to be translated resort , or agree to , or go together with , ( which is somewhat uncertain ) it cannot be understood of all Churches round about in all parts of the World , for that had been an impossible thing , and contrary to the intent of Irenaeus in the same place who directs them that were in Asia to Ephesus and Smyrna for the same end , but he means of the parts of the Western Empire , such as Lyons was in France where he was Bishop , and such parts as were nearer Rome ; and it is manifest that he makes Ro●● no more infallible than the Church at Smyrna or Ephesus , referring the Inquisitor into the tradition Apostolical to apply himself to these , as well as it for information ; nor doth he make the resort to be to the Church of Rome always , but because at that time there was a succession of men that knew the Apostles , or had the Doctrine of Christ delivered from them , among whom he reckons Linus as made Bishop by Peter while he lived , and so no Successour to Peter ; but if Peter were a Bishop of Rome , ( which Papist say , but we deny ) there were two Bishops of Rome together , yea , he makes the Church of Rome to have been founded by Peter and Paul , not by Peter onely , by reason of which tradition , though either false or uncertain , he judged there was the best assurance to be had of the Apostles Doctrine about God the Creatour against Valentinus , and the rather , because he was acquainted with the Teachers there as he had been with Polycarpus of Smyrna , who was an acquaintance of John the Evangelist , for which reason he directs also to him . As for the more potent Principality , which Irenaus speaks of , whether it be meant of the Church or the State Ecclesiastical or Civil it is uncertain ; if of the Civil Principality , because then it was the Seat of the Empire , the necessity of resort thither must be because civil affairs would enforce them to go thither upon other occasions , and then they might inform themselves being there most commodiously ; if of Ecclesiastical Principality , yet there is nothing that shews it meant of universal jurisdiction and power over all Churches , but of a more powerfull Principality it had in clearing Doctrines and ordering Church-affairs in those parts by reason of the eminency of their Founders , and succeeding Teachers who were in those times of great note for purity of Doctrine and constancy in the Faith for which they were Martyrs . And indeed were the question now between us and any such as Valentinus or Marcion concerning the Doctrine which the Apostles taught about another God besides the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ , and the Church of Rome had such Bishops as then they had who had acquaintance with the Apostles , or received their tradition from them so near to the Apostles days as the Roman Bishops did then , we should also think it meet in such a point wherein we knew they were right to refer it to them to determine . But in so doing we should not acknowledg a perpetual Prerogative of infallible Supremacy over all the Churches in the World annexed to that See , nor did ever Irenaeus intend it , who is known to have opposed Victor Bishop of Rome , when he excommunicated the Asian Bishops for varying from him in the keeping of Easter , as Eusebius reports , Hist. Eccles. lib. 5. cap. 22 , 23 , 24.

The words of Origen in cap. 6. Epist ad Roman . ( waving other Exceptions against Citations out of that Commentary , as being so altered by Ruffinus that we can hardly know what is Origen's , what not ) were they as H. T. sets them down ( which I cannot examine now for want of the Book ) yet they prove not Peter's supremacy of power over the Apostles . He might have the chief charge of feeding Christ 's Sheep , and the Church be founded on him , yet have no jurisdiction over the Apostles , and the Church be founded on the other Apostles as well as on him , as hath been shewed before in this Article , Sect 4.

As for Cyprian's words , calling Peter the Head and Root of the Church , cited by H. T. as in an Epist. ad Julian : I finde no such Epistle in Cyprian's Works , but in an Epistle ad Jubian●m concerning Baptism of Hereticks , I finde these words about the beginning of the Epistle , Nos autem qui Ecclesiae unius caput & radicem tenemus , that is , But we who hold the Head and Root of one Church , &c. in which Peter is not named , nor do I finde any thing that should infer that by the Head and Root of one Church , he means Peter but Christ , whom in his Book of the Unity of the Church he makes the onely Head of his Church , and having alleged immediately before one Baptism , as it is Ephes. 4. 5. it is likely he meant by one Head the one Lord , mentioned vers. 5. as after also he mentions one Faith , or else the meaning is this , we have remained in the unity of the Church which is one , and the Head and Root of the faithfull : of which several particular Churches are members and branches . Nor , did he call Peter the Head and Root of the Church , would it be for H. T. his purpose , unless he meant it in respect of universal Jurisdiction and Supremacy over the whole Church belonging to him and his Successours Bishops of Rome , which is not proved , and there may be another reason given of such a Title given to Peter's person onely , because of his eminent confession , Matth. 16. 16. and his preaching , Acts 2. & 10 , &c. And though he term the Church of Rome Peter's Chair , or rather the Bishoprick of Rome or Peter's Doctrine and teaching there , yet that proves not he held the Popes Supremacy , but that Peter's Doctrine was then held there . Yea , it is certain out of his Treatise of the Unity of the Church , and his Epistle to Cornelius mentioned before , and his opposition to Pope Stephanus , that Cyprian did account all Bishops equal , and the Bishops of Africa equal in Jurisdiction to the Roman Bishop , and the Pope of Rome to be but his Collegue , from whom he dissents , and to whom he denied Appeals , and whom he reproved of ambition and pride , when he sought to impose his Judgement on others , contrary to what Cyprian and a whole Synod of African Bishops besides Asiaticks held , and therein opposed the Bishop of Rome . And therefore it is certain that Cyprian never acknowledged the Supremacy of the Pope now asserted .

Of those which H. T. allegeth in the fourth Age , not one of them giveth Peter that Supremacy of Jurisdiction over the Apostles and Christians , which the Romanists claim as belonging to the Pope over all Bishops and Churches , but either a primacy of order , or preheminence of gifts , or zeal , or esteem , or use in moderating in Assemblies . The words which seem to be most for it are falsly ascribed to Chrysostom . For however Trapezuntius have translated them , yet in the four and fiftieth Homily ( as it is in Eaton Print ) the words are not as H. T. cites them , The Pastour and Head of the Church was once a poor Fisherman . But on Matth. 16. 18. he hath these words , And I say unto thee , Thou art Peter , and upon this Stone or Rock I will build my Church , that is , on the faith of confession or confessed . There he shews that many should believe , and raiseth up his minde , and makes him Pastour . And after on vers 19. These things he promiseth to give him , to shew a Fisherman stronger than any Stone or Rock , all the World oppugning .

If Optatus call Peter the Head of the Apostles , it is meant , as is frequent in Scripture and other Writers , to call the forwardest , and leader , or first in order the Head of the rest . But the words Apostolorum Caput Petrus inde Cephas appellatus , gives occasion to conceive these words inserted in Optatus , who it is likely would not have given so inept a derivation of the word Cephas , as if it were from the Greek 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 a Head .

The words in Augustin Serm. 124. de tempore ( not as H. T. 12. de 4. temporibus , which shews that he cites this passage without reading it , and it is likely he did so in the rest ) have no likelihood to be Augustine's , those Sermons being nothing like Augustine's Writings , nor is it likely that Augustine would have called Peter the Foundation of unmovable Faith , or have made the sin of denying Christ , exiguae culpae , a small fault . The words in the eighty sixth Epistle ad Casulanum are either deceitfully or ignorantly alleged , they being not the words of Augustine , but of Urbicus , whom he refutes . For so the words are , Peter also ( saith he , that is , Urbicus ) the Head of Apostles , the Door-keeper of Heaven , and Foundation of the Church , Simon being extinct , who had been a Figure of the Devil , not to be overcome but by Fasting , taught the Romans that thing , whose Faith is declared to the whole World of Lands .

The words of Augustine , of whom Peter the Apostle by reason of the Primacy of his Apostleship bore the person , &c. tract . ultimo in Joannem , being recited at large are so far from proving the Supremacy which Romanists ascribe to him , that they are against the principal grounds , by which they endeavour to prove it , and therefore I will recite them at large . This ( following Christ ) the Church doth , blessed by hope in this sorrowfull life , of which Church Peter the Apostle by reason of the Primacy of his Apostleship bare the person by a figured generality . For so much as pertains to him properly he was one man by nature , by grace one Christian , by more abundant grace one and the same first Apostle . But when it was said to him , To thee will I give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heavens , and whatsoever thou shalt binde on Earth shall be bound also in Heavens , and whatsoever thou shalt loose on Earth shall be loosed also in the Heavens : he signified the whole Church , which in this World is shaken with divers temptations , as it were showres , flouds , and tempests , and falls not , because it is founded upon the Rock , from whence Peter also took his name : For the Rock is not called from Peter , but Peter from the Rock , Petrus a Petra , as Christ is not called from a Christian , but a Christian from Christ . For therefore , saith the Lord , upon this Rock will I build my Church , because Peter had said , Thou art Christ the Son of the living God . Therefore he saith , Upon this Rock which thou hast confessed will I build my Church . For Christ was the Rock upon which Foundation Peter himself also was built . For no man can lay other Foundation besides that which is laid , which is Christ Jesus . The Church therefore which is founded on Christ received from him the Keys of the Kingdom of Heavens in Peter , that is , the power of binding and loosing sins . For what the Church is by propriety in Christ , that is , by signification , Peter in the Rock : by which signification Christ is understood to be the Rock , Peter the Church . In which passage though there are conceits not right , yet clear it is that Peter's primacy is here asserted to be onely in this that he represented the whole Church , that the Rock on which it is built is Christ , that he had his first Apostleship by more abundant grace in that he was made a figure of the whole Church to signifie , its unity , that in him the whole Church had the Keys of the Kingdom of Heavens , that is , the power of binding and loosing sins : which points I presume , the Romanists now will not avow .

That which he cites out of the council of Nice , Can. 39. Arab. is but a late devised thing those Arabick canons being forged , there having been but twenty in all in that council , in the fifth of which number the Pope is equalled with other Patriarchs . And the council of Chalcedon Act. 16. is falsly alleged , as if it ascribed all primacy and chief honour of the Pope of Rome , sith it makes the Pope and other Patriarchs , equal in Jurisdiction within their circuit or Province , notwithstanding the reluctancy of the Popes Legates , and the flattery of some there , and that preheminence which the Pope had was of order or place , not of power , nor that by divine institution for Peter's sake , but by humane allowance , by reason of the dignity of the City of Rome :

SECT. VIII .

The holy Scriptures John 19. 11. Acts 25. 10 , 11. Luke 22. 25. 1 Cor. 3. 11. overthrow the Popes Supremacy .

H. T. adds after his fashion , Objections solved . Object . Pilate had power over Christ himself . Thou shouldest not ( saith he ) have any power against me , unless it were given thee from above , John 19. 11. therefore temporal Princes are above the Pope . Which is strengthened by Christ's disclaiming a worldly Kingdom , John 18. 36. saying , Who made me a Judge over you ? Luke 12. 14. declining the being made a King , John 6. 15.

Answ. I Distinguish your Antecedent : he had a power of permission over Christ I grant ; a power of Jurisdiction I deny , and so do all good Christians . Nor is your Consequence less to be denied , speaking of spiritual things , and things belonging to Church-government , in which we onely defend the Popes Supremacy , and that without all prejudice to Princes and chief Magistrates in their Supremacy of temporal affairs .

I reply , this Objection is most directly against the Popes Supremacy in temporal things , which this Authour after Hart , and sundry others , seem not to allow the Pope , though Carerius , Baronius , Bellarmine , and others defend it , places it is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , in the third of Lu. 22. 25. upon another occasion the strife of the Disciples at Christ's last Supper who of the Apostles should be the greater , our Lord Christ doth expresly determine , the Kings of the Nations , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that is have dominion over them , aud they that rule over them are called Benefactours , but you not so , and in all these places in the vulgar Latin ( which the Papists are bound to follow ) it is , Dominantur corum , or eis , & potestatem exercent in eos , or potestatem habent ipsorum , or super eos , in none of the places doth that Translation express the words , as importing tyrannical rule according to their own will without respect to the good of the persons ruled ; and the translating of it by H. T. [ over-rule ] and noting that it is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , as importing a forbidding onely to lord it over Inferiours , is not right , it being in Luke 22. 25. onely 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , they have rule over them . And that where it is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , it doth not forbid onely tyrannical dominion , but also any dominion at all over one another is apparent from many Arguments in the Text. 1. From the occasion , which was the petition and contention , in opposition to which this answer being made Christ must be conceived to forbid what they sought for , else it had not been apposite to the business : but they sought not tyrannical dominion , but the higher seat and chief dignity and power , or as Christ's answer , Luke 22. 26. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , intimates , they strove for seniority or priority of order , and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , vers. 24. and Matth. 20. 27. Mark 10. 44. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , shews , that the thing they sought was not Supremacy , but onely priority ; therefore our Lord Christ forbids not onely tyrannical dominion , but the higher seat , chief dignity and power , and the affecting seniority or priority over or before one another . 2. From the subjects whose dominion is forbidden , who are termed not Tyrants , but Kings of the Nations , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that have authority , Luke 22. 25. in Matth. 20. 25. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the Princes , or Rulers , or Leaders of the Gentiles , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and the great ones , in Mark 10 42. yet more diminutively , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , those that seem or are accounted to rule or lead the Nations , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , their great ones . Which terms do plainly shew that these , whose dominion was forbidden to the Apostles , were the Rulers which were esteemed and accepted by those to whom they were Rulers , and had lawfull authority ; and therefore such rule is forbidden , as the best Rulers used among the Nations , and not onely tyrannical , and meer lording it over one another after their own will . 3. The word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , however it may be sometimes meant of meer lordly forcible rule against the will and good of the person ruled , yet here it cannot be meant so , sith 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 to use dominion at all , and to have power at all over one another is forbidden , Luke 22. 25. as well as 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , to have absolute , lordly , arbitrary , forcible dominion . 4. This is further confirmed in that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , is as well forbidden as 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , to have authority or power , as well as to have dominion , and that which is expressed by the compound in Matthew and Mark is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the simple , in Luke , which is used still of rule without abuse . 5. In Luke it is forbidden to be called 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , which is a word that signifies Benefactours , and though to be Benefactours is not forbidden , yet it is forbidden to be so called , that is , to affect that Title , which implies one to be under another , and to be beholden one to another , as persons that could gratifie one another in bestowing favours , granting petitions one to another , bestowing preferments or refuse , which doth imply superiority in some sort , and such a dependence one on another as the Apostles were not to have . 6. The additional speech of Christ commanding in stead of dominion Matth. 20. 26. 27. Rather Ministery and service shews he would have none among them superiour , but all equal . 7. Christ's propounding his own Example , Matth. 20 28. Mark 10. 45. Luke 22. 27. as that which they were to follow evinceth the same . And though it is true he was their Master and Lord , John 13. 13. yet both there vers 14 , 15. and here he propounds himself an Example onely in service . 8. He expresseth that which he would have them to be so emphatically , that he not onely forbids that which all counted unlawfull , to wit , tyrannical rule , but also requires in those places such a mutual debasement , voluntary subjection , condescension , Ministery yielding to each other as takes away all assuming of so much as was lawfull in others , even the taking to themselves priority of order or place , precedency , seniority affected , empire or rule over one another , as the words Matth. 20. 26 , 27. Mark 10. 43 , 44. Luke 22. 26. do plainly shew . 9 This is confirmed by other places upon a like occasion , Matth. 18. 1. 2 3 4. Mark 9. 33 , 34 , 35. Luke 9. 46 , 47. in which places Christ resolves them that they should be as a little childe , that assumes not empire , but is humble and accounts others as equal to him . 10. It is further evident from Luke 22. 28 , 29. 30. that Christ having forbidden Supremacy or superiority in any of them among themselves doth promise them a Kingdom afterwards , and that then they should be in his Kingdom , and eat and drink at his Table , and sit upon twelve Thrones judging the twelve Tribes of Israel in recompense of their abiding with him in his temptations . And in very truth , if there were no more than the consideration of the present state of Peter and the Apostles their despised and persecuted condition and the future accidents that Christ foretold should befall Peter in particular , John 21. 28. and the rest of the Apostles , Matth. 24 9. no man could reasonably imagine that Christ should make Peter a visible Monarch to rule the Apostles and the Church scattered over the World , he himself being in prison and they also , and in so remote places , he unknown to them , and they to him , they having no access or means of access to him , nor knowing where to finde him , but all judicious men must conceive that this device of Peter's Supremacy over the Apostles and whole Church given by Christ is a meer impudent forgery , as was after Constantine's donation to the Bishop of Rome , by which wicked means the Popes have usurped the greatest tyranny that ever was in the World .

Out of all this I gather , that Christ intended , 1. That there should be no Kingdom , Monarchy , or Empire in any of the Apostles over the rest , or any part of the Church till he came ; but that their state should be a state of service in preaching the Gospel , and laying the foundation of Christianity till his coming . 2. That then he onely would be King , and they all equals , sitting upon twelve Thrones with him ; and therefore that he would make none of them supreme Monarch over the rest , nor Vicar to himself , as the Pope doth blasphemously and arrogantly challenge .

And for that which H. T. saith , that Christ expresly mentions a greater and a lesser , a superiour and inferiour among them , it is frivolously added , sith it is plain that what in Luke is vers. 26. he that is greater , he that is chief , is in Matthew 20. 26 , 27. Mark 10. 43. He that would be great among you , he that would be first , and that which is in Matth. 20. 26 , 27. let him be in Mark 10. 43 , 44. shall be your Minister , your servant , is in Luke 22. 26. Let him be as the younger , as the Minister ; which shews the meaning to be this , If any affect to be as the elder , greater or superiour to the rest , be so far from ascribing or yielding to him such precedency , greatness , or superiority , that my will is , that you should account of him as the younger , Servant and Minister to the rest , and so it shall be , ye shall be all equal , none above another . This is the very drift and purport of Christ's determination , that there should be no superiority or inferiority among them , but an equality ; and that which H. T. speaks of the mention of superiority and inferiority is meant of superiority that might be affected , but not of any superiority allowed by Christ , it being plainly forbidden .

And for what Bellarmine urgeth from the term 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , as if Christ had appointed one Ruler or Prince in the College of the Apostles , though the term 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , a Leader , is not the same with 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , a Prince , or Ruler , yet if it did note Princedom , it is manifested , that Christ speaks of a Prince among them not by due constitution , but by inordinate usurpation ; and therefore to infer from thence , as if Christ would have one superiour over the rest , when he determines there should be equality , is the act of a man that is resolved to be lustily impudent . By this whole discourse the Objection is fully vindicated against the shifts of H. T. and other Romanists , and stands thus . That Supremacy is not to be yielded to have been granted to Peter which Christ forbade to every one of the Apostles . But to be a supreme Ruler over the rest Christ forbad to every one of the Apostles ; therefore Christ forbad Peter to be a supreme Ruler over the rest of the Apostles .

I yet add , that were it granted , that Christ did onely forbid spiritual Superiours to lord it over Inferiours , this very grant would prove the Papal Supremacy , which Popes claim and exercise , to be certainly forbidden . For if ever there were a Superiour , that did lord it over Inferiours , the Pope is such a one , yea , I may aver and easily prove it , that let all the tyranny and lording , which any Tyrants or Princes have exercised from the beginning of the World to this day be considered , they will be found incomparable to the Papal tyranny and lording over the Church of God . If this be not the highest lording to impose on mens consciences such Laws as Christ never imposed , to enjoyn the holy , as they term it , inquisition with rigour , to excommunicate , deprive , burn men and women old and young who yield not to the Popes Laws , though contrary to Christ's , to take on him to dispense with Gods Laws , to challenge the defining of all controversies , supremacy over all Councils , power to depose and destroy Emperours and Kings , if they acknowledge not his immense power , yea , if they be not his Butchers to kill their best and most peaceable Subjects , if he once term them Hereticks , to interdict a whole State for limiting by Law Donations to Ecclesiasticks , and imprisoning notorious malefactours , who were Ecclesiasticks , the use of divine service , to subject a King to whipping on the Bare for the death of an Ecclesiastick not by him killed , to depose Emperours for investing Bishops , to canonize Saints , whom he will , to be invocated even such an one whose holiness was disobedience to his lawfull Prince , and to have a Feast proper to him , besides innumerable other acts done against the Laws of God and Man I do utterly despair ever to know what it is to lord or tyrannize over others . Surely it is easier to praise Busiris , or to justifie Dionysius of Syracuse , or Nero of Rome , and to acquit them from lording , than the Bishop of Rome for many hundreds years last past , if we stand to the Relations of Writers of their own Church , who speak too favourably of them .

H. T. proceeds . Object . Christ is the foundation ( of the church ) and other foundation can no man lay , 1 Cor. 3. 11. Answ . Other principal foundation can no man lay , I grant , other subordinate , I deny : for that he himself hath laid , Peter , thou art Peter , and upon this Rock will I build my church , St. Matth. 16. 18. and the rest of the Apostles were built on the foundation of them all , although not equally , Ephes. 2. 20.

I reply , when it is said , Christ is the Foundation of the Church , and other Foundation can no man lay , it is meant of a principal Foundation not excluding a subordinate . But sith the term [ Foundation ] as hath been proved before in this Article , Sect. 2 , 3. as applied to the Apostles doth not note settling or upholding by rule or dominion , but by teaching , the Papists who ascribe to the Pope such a Supremacy and Infallibility in teaching , as is proper to Christ , do lay another principal Foundation besides Jesus Christ , not subordinate , but coordinate to him . Which that they do is proved by two things , which are ascribed by them to the Pope either by himself or with his Council .

1. That they can alter the plain express precepts of Christ , as namely in determining , that it is not necessary that other faithfull people besides the sacrificing Priest should drink the Wine in the Eucharist , though the precept of Christ is as express for all the faithfull drinking of it , as it is for their eating of the Bread , and that it is not lawfull for a Priest to marry , though the Scripture expresly saith , Marriage is honourable in all men , Heb. 13. 4.

2. In enjoyning under pain of Heresie , Excommunication , and Damnation things to be believed , and practised , which Christ never enjoyned to be believed or practised , as namely , Transubstantiation , the unbloody Propitiatory Sacrifice , properly so called in the Mass , Purgatory Fire , confession of all a persons known sins into the ears of a Priest , the keeping of the Vow of a Monastick profession , when the person cannot contain , and to live an idle begging life , when the person is able to work , and hath no other imployment , nor pretends to any , which is usefull to men , besides praying , which is the common duty of all Christians . Now surely he that takes on him to alter Christ's commands , and to put his own in stead thereof doth make himself the principal Foundation equal to Christ , which is contrary to Paul , 1 Cor. 3. 11. and to Christ , Matth. 23. 8 , 11. and so makes himself a Foundation co-ordinate , as indeed more than Christ , however he pretend himself the Vicar of Christ , or the authority of the Church for his Warrant . As for that which is said of Peter here , it was answered before , Sect. 2 , 3. that it doth not import any Rule or Dominion , but some peculiar success in his preaching , besides what others had , which was but a personal preheminence derivable to no Successour , much less to the rank of Roman Bishops in these last Ages , who never build the Church by preaching , but pull down Princes , and oppress those that would build up Christ's Church . Yet it is observable , that he allegeth Eph. 2. 20. to prove that the rest of the Apostles were built on the foundation of them all though not equally , when the Text doth not at all mention the Apostles being built on the Foundation , but the Ephesian believers , nor are the Ephesian believers said to be built on them unequally , on Peter as the supreme , on others after him , but on them all without any difference , and not onely on them , but also on the Foundation of the Prophets , Christ alone being the chief corner-stone .

SECT. IX .

Cyprian , Hierome , Gregory , the councils of Constantinople , Chalcedon , Nice , are against the Popes Supremacy .

It is added thus by H. T. Object . St. Cyprian ( de unit . Eccles. ) says , The Apostles were equal in dignity . And St. Hierome affirms the church was equally founded on them all , lib. cont. Jovin . Answ. They were equal in their calling to the Apostleship I grant , in their power of Government and Jurisdiction I deny : And the church was equally founded on them all before a Head was constituted , I grant ; after a Head was constituted , I deny , and so do the Fathers , St. Cyprian saying in the same place , that Christ disposed the origen of unity beginning from one ( Peter ) And St. Hierome tells us , He chose one of the Twelve , that a Head being constituted , the occasion of Schism might be taken away .

I Reply , Cyprian's words in his Book de unitate Ecclesia , are recited above Art. 5. Sect. 6. in which he expresly saith thus , Hoc erant utique & caeteri Apostoli quod fuit Petrus , pari consortio praditi & honoris & potestatis , sel exordium ab unitate proficiscitur , ut Ecclesia una monstretur : that is , That verily were also all the rest of the Apostles which Peter was , endued with equal allotment of honour and power , but the beginning proceeds from unity , that the church might be shewed to be one . So that the very words are express , that all the Apostles were not onely equal in their calling to the Apostleship , but also in power and honour , and that Peter was made a Representative of all , ye● had no more power and honour than other Apostles ; and for Bishops he saith presently after , Episcopatus unus est cujus a singulis in solidum pars tenetur , that is , Bishoprick is but one , of which wholly or entirely a part is held by each . Which words plainly shew this to be his meaning , 1. That the Episcopacy or charge of looking to the Church of Christ is but one and the same in all the World , even as the Church Catholick is but one and the same . 2. That each Bishop hath but his part , none the whole , none is an universal Bishop over the whole Church . 3. That each Bishop , who hath his part , holds it in solidum , that is , wholely or intirely , the power and charge is as much in one as another . 4. That Episcopacy was first invested in Peter for all , that Episcopacy might be one , and undivided , and the Church one , so as that no Church break from another , nor any Bishop be above another .

As for the words of Hierome , lib. 1. advers. Jovin . they are thus . At dick , super Petrum fundatur Ecclesia , licet idipsum in alio loco super omnes Apostolos fiat , & cuncti claves regni coelorum accipiant , & ex aequo super eos Ecclesiae fortitudo solidetur : tamen propterea inter duodecim unus eligitur ; ut capite constituto schismatis tollatur occasio : that is , But thou sayest ( who arguest for Marriage ) upon Peter ( a married man ) the church is founded , although that thing in another place is done upon all the Apostles , and all receive the Keys of the Kingdom of Heavens , and equally upon them the strength of the church is established : yet therefore among twelve one is chosen , that a Head being constituted the occasion of Schism might be taken away . In which words it is manifest that he makes the other Apostles equally Foundations of the Church with Peter , and to have the Keys of the Kingdom of Heavens , and terms Peter not a Head in respect of Power or Jurisdiction over the rest , but in respect of Order , that for want of it no occasion of Schism might be . Which to have been the minde of Hierome appears fully in his Epistle to Euagrius , in which he determines that in the Scripture Bishops and Elders were the same , that Peter calls himself a fellow-elder , and John an Elder , but after one was chosen who might be set before the rest , that was done for a Remedy of Schism , lest each one drawing to himself the church of Christ might break it . And then he makes the Church and Bishop of Rome equal with other Churches and Bishops .

If , saith he , Authority be sought , the World is greater than a City . Wheresoever there is any Bishop either at Rome , or at Eugubium , or at Constantinople , or at Rhegium , or at Alexandria , or at Tanis , he is of the same merit , and of the same Priesthood . Power of riches , and humility of poverty , makes a Bishop neither higher nor lower . But all are Successours of the Apostles . Whence these things may be inferred , 1. That Bishops are not above Elders originally . 2. That their superiority is by positive order . 3. That the Apostles were Elders . 4. That all Bishops are their Successours . 5. That the Bishop of Rome is not above another Bishop . 6. That the Authority of Rome is less than of the World .

Yet further saith H. T. Object . One Body with two Heads is monstrous . Answ. Not if one be principal , and the other subordinate or ministerial onely , as in our present case : so Christ is the Head of the Man , and the Man of the Woman , 1 Cor. 11. without any monstrosity .

I reply , to make a thousand metaphorical subordinate ministerial Heads of the Church of Christ may be without monstrosity . But to make a supreme visible Head over the whole Church , ascribing to him such a power as agrees to none but Christ , nor can be exercised by any but Christ for the good of his body , hath monstrosity in it , or rather treason against Christ . But such a Head is the Pope made by H. T. therefore this conceit of him and other Papists induceth monstrosity . The Minor is partly shewed before , and may be fully proved by instancing in the acts of power the Pope takes to him , in defining what the whole Church is to believe , what is the sense of Scripture , receiving Appeals from all places , judging causes , setting up and putting down Kings and Bishops , and many more , wherein he arrogateth and usurpeth that power to himself , which doth onely agree to Christ , and can be exercised by none but him .

Again saith H. T. Object . St. Gregory rejects the name of Universal Arch-bishop as Antichristian , lib. 7. indict . 2. Epist. 96. Answ. He rejects it as it excludes all others from being Bishops , I grant ; as it onely signifies one to be supreme and above all others , I deny , and so doth he himself , saying in the same Book ( Epist 62. ) if there be any crime found in Bishops , I know no Bishop but is subject to the See Apostolick . And lib 4. Indict . 13. Epist. 32. The care and principality of the church hath been committed to the holy Apostle and Prince of the Apostles St. Peter , yet is not he called Universal Apostle , as if there were no other Apostles but he . You see in what sense he rejects the word ( Universal . )

I reply , Gregory not onely rejected the Title of Universal Arch-bishop or Patriarch , but also rejected it as proud , wicked , perverse , profane , blasphemous , aud the Usurper of it as a Fore-runner of Antichrist , and not onely as not agreeing to the Bishop of Constantinople , but also as not agreeing to him or any of his Predecessours , lib. 6. Epist. 24. & lib. 4. Epist. 32. & 36. None of my Predecessours consented to use this profane name of Universal Bishop : none of my Predecessours ever took upon him this name of singularity , neither consented to use it . We ( the Bishops of Rome ) do not seek nor yet accept this glorious Title being offered unto us . Nor in the sense onely as H. T. denies it due to the Pope , as if it excluded all others from being Bishops , but even in the sense in which the Pope now usurps it . For , 1. He rejects it in the sense in which John of Constantinople did affect it . But he did not affect it as thereby assuming to himself to be the onely Bishop , but the supreme , which appears , 1. In that a Synod of the Greek Bishops did agree to give it him , Habita Synodo seipsum Patriarcham universalem creasset , that is , Holding a Synod he had created himself universal Patriarch , Platina in the Life of Pope Gregory . But doubtless the Synod would not give him the Title as importing him the onely Bishop , for then they should have unbishopt themselves , which neither he nor they did . 2. Gregory when he chargeth him with his arrogating that Title to himself tells John himself , lib. 4. Epist 38. that he sought this Title that he might seem to be under none , and he alone before all , that be endeavoured that by the appellation of universal Bishop he might put under himself all the members of Christ , that he desired to be called in the World not onely the Father , but also the general Father , that he desired by that word of elation to put himself before Bishops , and to hold them under him , which shews he affected not to be accounted the onely Bishop , but the supreme . 3. He affected no more than what after Boniface the third of Rome obtained of Phocas , as appears by the words of Platina in the Life of Boniface the third , who speaks thus . Boniface the third a Roman by countrey obtained from Phocas the Emperour , yet with great contention , that the See of blessed Peter the Apostle , which is the Head of all churches should be both so called and accounted by all : which place indeed the Church of Constantinople endeavoured to challenge to it , sometimes evil Princes favouring , and affirming that in that place should be the first See where the Head of the Empire was . And Baronius Annal. Eccles . at the year 606. relates the Decree of Phocas thus , that the Roman Bishop alone should be called oecumenical or universal , but not the Constantinopolitan . And Bellarmine lib. 2. de Pontif. Rom. cap. 31. saith , They would equal the See of Constantinople to the Roman , and make it universal , speaking of the Greeks in the business of John of Constantinople ; whence it may be plainly gathered , that the thing which the Patriarchs of Constantinople affected , was not to be accounted the onely Bishop , so as that none but he should be accounted a bishop , but that he should be the Head or Supreme of all Bishops by reason of the Seat of the Empire there , and that this Gregory disclaimed as proud . 4. That was affected by John , which he and Cyriacus his Successour used for twenty years , but neither of them used it so by word or deed , as to exclude others from being Bishops as well as themselves ( for in John's own writing to them extant in the body of the Romam Greek Law , he terms them fellow-servants , Metropolitans , and Bishops , to whom he writes , and others in their Writings to the Patriarch of Constantinople , when they term him oecumenical Arch-bishop , yet style themselves Bishops and fellow-priests ) but they would be accounted supreme or prime Bishops of the whole Church , so as to be under none , but above all .

2. It is proved that Gregory rejected the Title of Universal Bishop in the sense of the supreme Bishop , in that he , Regist. lib. 11. Epist. 54. resolves thus If any man accuse a Bishop for whatsoever cause , let the cause b● judged by his Metropolitan . If any man gainsay the Metropolitan's judgement , let it be referred to the Arch-bishop and Patriarch of that Diocese , and let him end it according to the Canons and Laws . And for what he addeth , that if a Bishop have no Metropolitan nor Patriarch at all , then is his cause to be heard and determined by the See Apostolick , which is the Head of all Churches , it is added beyond the Canons of Councils and Laws of Emperours , and though it prove that he claimed a reference of causes in difference between Bishops within his Patriarchate , yet not where there were other Patriarchs to which the Bishops were subject , much less through the whole World . And that he termeth the See of Rome the Head of all Chuches , doth not prove a Supremacy of Government by any institution of Christ , but a preheminence of order and some Ecclesiastical Privileges , by reason of that Cities being the Seat of the Empire . And hereby is understood what H. T. cites out of the seventh Book Epist. 62. of Greg. Epistles , Indict . 2. that it is not meant of all Bishops universally , but of the Bishops within that Patriarchate , but this was in case of fault onely ; for it follows , But when no fault requires it , all according to reason of humility are equals : So that Gregory doth not by that speech shew that he had an universal supreme Jurisdiction and power over all Churches , so as that they were subject to his commands and deteminations in points of faith , but that he accounted the African Churches subject to his reproof , as he had a common care of the Church every where , in which Gregory himself and all other Bishops and Churches are subject to any Bishop wheresoever . Certainly Gregory had most absurdly argued against the arrogance of John of Constantinople , calling the Title of universal Bishop new , profane , proud , blasphemous , foolish , perverse , and him a Fore-runner of Antichrist whosoever should use it , if he had imagined it belonged to himself , or any Bishop of Rome .

And for what H. T. allegeth , that John claimed to be universal Bishop , as excluding all others , it is but an absurdity which Gregory pressed him with , as following upon it , not acknowledged by John , but rather denied , as when we urge men with absurdities following their tenets which they do not own ; and how he urgeth , it appears from his words , lib. 4. Epist. 38. when he saith to John , Thou desirest to tread under the name of Bishops in comparison of thy self , which shew that he charged him not to have affected the Title of Universal Bishop , as if he would be the onely Bishop absolutely , but comparatively to himself , in that sense as he which is singular in some thing is said to be alone , and as he who is not what he was , is said not to be ; and so Gregory chargeth him as if by consequence he would exclude all others , and unbishop them in comparison . And yet if Gregorie's words were understood to condemn no more than this , that any should arrogate to himself the Title of Universal Bishop , as if he were the onely Bishop and others but as his Vicars or Substitutes , all that Gregory imputes to the use of that Title in this sense falls on the late Roman Bishops , who deny that any Bishop hath power of Jurisdiction but from them , that Bishops are not immediately by divine right , but mediately from the Pope , concerning which what passed in the Council of Trent may be seen in the History of Frier Paul in the seventh and eighth Book , in which may be seen how stifly the Italians and Jesuits held it , and the Pope eluded the Spanish Bishops .

Lastly , that Gregory did disclain such a Supremacy as Popes now usurp is manifest from the obedience which Gregory , lib. 1. Epist. 32 lib. 2. Epist. 61. 31. lib. 7. Epist. 1. and elsewhere acknowledged , he did ow to Mauritius the Emperour as his sovereign Lord , and in that Epistle in which he writes to Mauritius about John's usurpation by Sabinian Pope next after him petitions that the most pious Lord Mauritius would vouchsafe to judge that very business which was in controversie between John of Constantinople and himself about the Title of universal Bishop , which he denied to Jo●n or to himself : nor was Gregorie's own election to the Popedom counted valid without the confirmation of Mauritius the Emperour , as by the relation of his Life in Platina appears : which things are inconsistent with that Doctrine which the Papists now hold about the Popes Supremacy .

H. T. adds . Object . The first Constantinopolitan Council and the Council of Chalcedon decreed the Constantinopolitan See to be equal with that of Rome . Answ. In certain Privileges I grant , in original Authority or Jurisdiction I deny , and so doth the said Council of Chalcedon , saying , We throughly consider truly , t●at all Primacy and chief Honour is to be kept for the Arch-bishop of old Rome , Action 16. Nor was that Canon of the Council of Constantinople ever approved by the Pope , though it owned the Church of Rome to be the See Apostolick , and sought but Primacy in the second place and after it .

I reply , 1. Though it had been gainsaid by the Bishop of Rome , yet there was no reason the opposition of one Bishop should weigh down the common consent of the rest . 2. It is apparant that the Popes approbation was not then judged necessary , but that the Synod could determine without him . 3. That Canon of the first Council of Constantinople was not gainsaid by the Pope that then was , nor many years after . 4. Gregory the Great esteemed the four first general Councils as the four Gospels without exempting that Canon . And it is manifest that the Council gave Prerogatives of Honour to the Bishop of Constantinople next after the Roman , because it was new Rome . And the Council of Chalcedon expresly determined that the Bishop of Constantinople should have 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 equal Privileges with the Roman , which Privileges were the same that old Rome had , which could not be the first place in the Council , but was Power and Jurisdiction , and this they determined notwithstanding the regret of the Popes Legates , who could not obtain any more than what was allotted the Bishop of Rome in the sixth Canon of the Nicene Council , of which H. T. saith .

Object . The Council of Nice saith , Let the ancient custome be kept in Egypt , Lybia , and Pentapolis , that the Bishop of Alexandria hath power over all these , because the Bishop of Rome also hath such a custome . Answ. The Bishop of Rome had a custome to permit such a power to the Bishop of Alexandria ; the Greek Text saith , Because to the Bishop of Rome also this is accustomed , which argues him to be above the other .

I reply , this Answer is frivolous , or rather impudent . For the same thing is allowed to the Bishop of Alexandria , which was accustomed to the Bishop of Rome , but that was not a power to permit any thing to the bishops of Egypt , Lybia , and Pentapolis , but to take care of the Churches therein as their Metropolitan , namely , to look to the Ordination of bishops and composing of Differences . And the meaning is , that each of those bishops of Rome , Alexandria , and Antioch , should , according to the custome of the bishop of Rome in his , look to the ordering of the Churches each in his Province , as Ruffinus expresseth the Canon , and the Arrbick and other Interpreters , and Paschasinus the Popes Legate in the Council of Chalcedon alleged it thus , that the Bishop of Alexendria should have 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 power over all , because so it was accustomed to the Bishop of Rome . Which cannot be meant of all simply ; For then it should have been thus meant , the bishop of Alexandria is to have power of all , because the bishop of Rome hath power of all , and so the bishop of Alexandria should be supreme bishop as the Pope , and so in stead of one visible supreme Head there should be more , which Romanists brook not , but it must be meant of equal power and charge given to the bishop of Alexandria in his Province with that which by custome the Roman had in his . And for the inference from the words [ Because to the Bishop of Rome also this is accustomed ] that it argues him to be above the other , it is vain , it proving onely the bishop of Rome's power to have been the Pattern of the bishop of Alexandria his power , but not greater , yea , it proves an equality between them , sith it ascribes the same to the one which was accustomed to the other .

SECT. X.

Of the Emperour's calling Councils , Pope Joan , Papists killing Princes excommunicate , not keeping Faith with Hereticks .

H. T. proceeds . Obj. The Emperors heretofore called and presided in General Councils . Answ. They called them instrumentally I grant , by way of spiritual Jurisdiction I deny . And they presided also in them for peace and ornament true ; for definition or judgement it is most false : that always was reserved to the Popes . I will not sit among them as Emperour ( saith Constantine in his Epistle to Pope Leo about the sixth Ge●●ral Council ) I will not speak imperiously with them , but 〈◊〉 one of them , and what the Fathers shall ordain I will execute . Emperours subscribed Councils , 〈…〉 cons●itution , but execution . God ( saith Constantine to the Nicene Council ) hath made you Priests , and given you power to judge us , but you may not be judged of men . In Ruffino .

I Reply , that the Emperours called the first General Councils , it is so manifest out of the Writings of the Councils extant , that H. T. could not deny it ; that they called them instrumentally , ( meaning doubtless as the Popes instruments ) is so far from truth , that the Popes sought to the Emperours to call them , as Leo Epist. 24. 26. 23. and in the sixth General Council at Constantinople ( of which H. T. speaks ) Pope Agatho saith , that he took care that they should go to the Council according to the command of the Emperour , pro obedientia quam debuit , out of obedience he did ow to the Emperour . It is true , the Emperour did not call them by way of spiritual Jurisdiction . We conceive not , that the calling of persons to meet to consult of matters of Religion to be a point of spiritual Jurisdiction , who ever he be that calls them , whether Pope or Emperour : calling an Assembly is no part of Jurisdiction at all , it may be lawfully done by a brotherly invitation in many cases , and the Assembly may be by agreement without any superiority . Nor is there any spirituality in it , except in reference to the end , which doth not make it an act of spiritual Jurisdiction any more , than a Fathers , or Mothers , or Masters , causing servants or children to meet to pray or learn a Catechism , or when King Lemuel's Mother made him learn holy Lessons , Prov. 31. 1. H. T. here saith , The Emperours subscribed to Councils in order to execution : and he mentions it as allowable , which hath as much of spiritual Jurisdiction as the calling of the Council , and yet he will not say , it was an act of spiritual Jurisdiction . And for presiding it is certain , that Constantine the great did not onely for ornament or peace , but also for direction or moderating their actions preside in the Nicene Council , and that the Emperors Subscriptions were for definitions , judgement , and constitution . it is apparent from the form of their Subscriptions ; nor were the Councils Determinations counted binding Laws without the Emperours confirmation , nor did the first Christian Emperours execute what the Pope or Council would have them , but the Councils and Popes did supplicate the Emperour to execute their Decrees , and sometimes did at the Emperours command execute his Decrees , though it is true also that the best Emperours did in their presiding and calling of Councils decline magisterial Impositions on the consciences of Bishops , and Determinations of Faith , but were willing to learn from them the truth , and in such matters did refer the trial of Bishops to other Bishops , whom they chose , as in the cause of Athanasius , and sometimes to others , as in the cause of the Donatists .

H. T. adds . Object . What think you of Pope Joan ? Was she an universal Bishop also ? Answ. I think him rather a particular Fool who can believe so gross a Fable : It was the credulous Relation of one Martinus Polonus a silly man ( the onely Authour for it , though Protestant Writers have falsly cited others ) who hath sufficiently discredited his own Narration ; For he tells you , she was born at Mountes in England ; ( there having never been any such place ●eard of ) and that she was bred up at Athens , an University not then in being , but destroyed many years before , a pretty likely tale .

I reply , that it was the Relation of more than one appears by Platina his words , which are , Fere plerique omnes affirmant , &c. almost all affirm it . Protestant Writers have produced rightly particularly Mr. Alexander Cook in his Dialogue of Pope Joan , a full Jury of Writers relating it , and those some of them before Martinus Polonus , and as credible Historians , as those times yielded , besides the signs of the truth of the Relation , which are vindicated by him and others from the shifts by which Onuphrius and such like Dawbers have endeavoured to evade their testimony . And me thinks H. T. writes too grosly in conceiving him a particular Fool that can believe it , when Platina , Sabellicus , Antoninus , Leonicus Chalcondyla , Marianus Scotus , Sigibertus Gemblacen●is , Matthaeus Palmerius , Volateranus , Nauclerus , Christianus Massaeus , Joannes Parifiensis , Theodoricus Niem , Ravisius Textor , and others could believe it . As for the Exceptions here made , it is not true , that Martinus Polonus saith , that Pope Joan was born at Mountes ( he would say M●ntz ) in England , the words are Jo●nnes Anglicus natione Moguntinus , that is , John English by nation of Mentz , which may be true , that she had the name of English by descent , yet born at Mentz in Germany , as many a man born in England hath the name of Irish , Scot , French , and I think Turbervile is a Norman name , yet presume Henry Turbervile was born in England . And for Athens , that it was then destroyed , and no University is affirmed by him , not proved , but the contrary is shewed to have been probable out of the Subscription of the sixth Council , by the seventh Council , out of Paulus Acmylius , and others by bishop Jewel Defence of the Apol. part. 4. ch. 1. divis . 1.

H. T. adds . Object . You Roman Catholicks , as I have heard , ( if the Pope excommunicate a Tyrant or heretical Prince ) hold it lawfull for his own Subjects to kill him . Answ. You have heard a loud slander , we abominate and detest the Doctrine . It is defined by the Council of Constance , and therefore of faith with us , that it is heretical to affirm it lawfull for a Subject to kill his Prince upon any pretence whatsoever . Sess. 15.

I reply , What you now hold I know not , there are causes of jealousie of you , that having found it disadvantageous to you , you disguise your selves and conceal your opinions till it may be for your advantage . But sure heretofore the many Attempts against Queen Elizabeth by Popish Priests , especially of the Jesuites Order , some whereof were with the privity or instigation of Cardinals , if not Popes of Rome , the seditious Writing of William Allen , who was therefore thought fit by the Pope to be made a Cardinal , with Parsons , Creswell , and such like , the Bull of Pope Pius the fifth , the Gun-powder Treason against King James , and the Parliament 1605. with the acts and speeches of Faux , Garnet , Greenwell , Hall , and others , and Pope Paul the fifth his Breves against taking the Oath of Allegeance with Bellarmine's Letter , and the Writings thereupon did make it appear then , that , how loud soever it might be , yet it was no slander to charge Roman Catholicks with that Doctrine . The praising of James Clement's fact in killing Henry the third of France by Pope Six●us the fifth , the attempt of Peter Barrier , of John Chastel a Novice of the Jesuits , and the execrable Murder of Henry the fourth by Ravillac confessed to have been by the instigation of Jesuits , and Mariana's book , with many other things caused the University and Parliament of Paris to charge some Roman Catholicks with that Doctrine : which it 's not likely they would have done , and the King a while banish the Jesuits had there not been sufficient Proof . Yea since that time the books of Bellarmine , and Santarellus have been condemned by the University and Parliament of Paris , as teaching that Doctrine , and yet more books have been vented tending to the same , as in the Writings of Suarez and other Jesuits may be found . Nor did I ever hear , that the Pope did by punishing the Traitors in England when they fled to Rome , or by condemning the Jesuits Doctrine of killing Kings acquit Roman Catholicks from this accusation . Yea whereas King James towards the end of his Reign propounded nine Questions to be answered by John Fisher the Jesuit , it is observed by Dr. Francis White , that he doth decline to answer directly the ninth Question about deposing Kings and giving away their Kingdoms , alleging that it touched a controversie between the Pope and Princes , in which he makes shew of loathness to interpose , having a Letter dated , Aug. 1. 1614. from the general of his order not to write any thing thereof , having found it an unhappy course , but never declared against it , nor took the Oath of Allegeance , though the State knew it was easie for their general to alter the order , or to make an other order in private , and whatever order their general give , yet they are tied to do what the Pope requires of them . And the answers of the Jesuites about Santarellus his book approved by their general , that they in France then disavowed the Book , yet withall acknowledged , if they had been at Rome they would have done as their general did , shewed that they had disavowed that Doctrine out of fear , and that at Rome it was held for cu●●e●t . What they still hold may be seen in the mystery of Jesuitism , and other Writings .

As for what H. T. allegeth out of the Council of Constance it satisfieth not , sith all Roman Catholicks allow not that Council , which deposed the Pope and chose another , and determined the Council to be above the Pope , yea , Mariana de rege , &c. lib. 1. cap. 6. answers thus , But that Decree I finde not approved by Martin the fifth the Roman Pope . Nor indeed can Papists hold that which H. T. sets down as the Council of Constance's definition , but that they must gainsay what the fourth Lateran Council under Innocent the third determined concerning the rooting out of Hereticks . Nor are Princes secured by the determination of the Council of Constance , or H. T. his avouching it to be of faith , sith perhaps it is but one Doctor 's opinion , or if it be the faith of more or all , yet they can hold King killing , and yet hold that Doctrine , alleging that a Priest is no Subject , nor a person excommunicate his Prince , and that however he may not kill him upon any pretence whatsoever , yet he may do it upon the Popes Excommunication as a just Sentence of a superiour Judge ; the words in that Council , Sess. 15. ( left out here by H. T. whether fraudulently or no , his own conscience can tell best ) being , non expectata sententia , vel mandato judicis cujuscunque , The Sentence or Mandate of any Judge whatsoever being not expected , which have a shew of limiting their other words , and intimate their allowing the killing of a Prince , when there is a Mandate or Sentence of a Judge , such as they conceive the Pope to be . Nor have we any cause of confidence in H. T. as free from such devices , if we mark what follows .

Object . Mariana the Jesuit printed the opinion . Answ. True , by way of Probleme he did , but his Book was condemned and publickly burnt by a Provincial Council of his own Order .

I reply , Doth H. T. think the Book is not now to be seen to detect his falsity ? Or that the Memorials of these things are lost , who goes about to excuse Mariana or the Order of Jesuits in this manner ? Mariana did in his first Book of the Institution of a King , chap. 6. write that James Clement by killing Henry the third King of France with a poisoned Knife had gotten himself ingens nomen , a great name , that we consider from all memory that they were greatly praised who attempted to kill Tyrants , and that it is a wholesom cogitation , that Princes be perswaded if they oppress the Common-wealth , if they be intolerable in vices and filthiness , that they live in such a condition that not onely of right , but with praise and glory they may be killed . Which that they were more than a Probleme appears from his own words , This our Sentence certainly comes from a sincere minde . And the sad event of Ravillac's killing Henry the fourth of France by the inducement of that Book , and the Edict of the Parliament of Paris the eighth of the Ides of June , 1610. set down in the Continuation of Thuanus his History , Tom. 4. lib. 3. upon which his Book was adjudged to be burnt : but that his Book was burned by a Provincial Council appears not , nor is it set down by H. T. when nor where , nor is it likely to have been burnt by a Provincial Council till after the Sentence of the Parliament of Paris , that thereby they might salve the credit of their Order .

But it is added . Object . At least you hold the Pope can dispense with your Allegeance to Princes , and if ●e dispense you are not bound to keep any faith with them or any Hereticks . Answ. We hold that our Allegeance to Princes is not dispensable by any Authority on earth ; and are as ready to defend our Prince or civil Magistrate with the hazzard of our lives and fortunes even against the Pope himself if he invade them , as against any other Enemy . We esteem our selves obliged to keep faith even with Infidels : And the Council of Trent hath declared , that to violate any least point of publick faith given to Hereticks is a thing punishable by the Law of God and Man , Sess. 15 18. What this or that particular Doctor may hold , or the Popes flatterers , if he have any , adds nothing to the Creed of Catholicks , nor is it justly chargeable on the whole Church .

I reply , I am glad to read this passage , if this Authour mean plainly , as his words seem to import : yet see not sufficient security to Princes given thereby , though this Authour should mean so . For other Romanists may say as this Authour doth of others , What this or that particular Doctor holds adds nothing to the Creed of Catholicks , nor is it justly chargeable on the whole Church . Nor is this Protestation so full as to leave no starting hole from it , if it be for advantage . It may mean , they will defend their Prince who is their Prince , yet not acknowledge Allegeance to their Prince , as being exempt from his Jurisdiction as Clergy-men , or their Prince ceasing to be their Prince being an Heretick , or excommunicate , or worthy to be excommunicate , or they will defend their Prince against the invasion of the Pope , but not against the Sentence of Deposition , or they will defend him till they judge him an Enemy to the Faith or Catholick Church , but not any longer . And this Authour may , as some in case of Marriage conceive he is obliged to keep faith with In●idels , and yet not with Hereticks . And for the determination of the Council of Trent , Sess. 15. 18. neither durst Protestants then trust to the safe conduct then given , and before and since sad instances of Papists perfidiousness have given too much occasion to Protestants to suspect the lurking of a Snake under the grass , I mean some hidden deceit under a covert of fair words , especially when we consider this Authour a little before counted the definition of the Council of Constance to be of faith , Sess. 15. 18. In which Sess. 19. that Council ( as it is in Binius ) hath these words , The present holy Synod doth declare , that no prejudice to the Catholick faith , or to Ecclesiastick Jurisdiction is generated , or impediment can be , or ought to be made by any safe conduct granted by the Emperour , Kings , and other secular Princes to Hereticks , or defamed of Here●ie , thinking so to recall the same from their Errours , with whatsoever Bond they have bound themselves , but that , the said safe conduct notwithstanding , it may be lawfull for a competent Judge , and Ecclesiastick to inquire of the Errours of such persons , and otherwise duly to proceed against them , and to punish them , as much as justice shall perswade , if they shall refuse stifly to revoke their Errours , although trusting to their safe conduct they have come to the place of judgement , who otherwise would not have come : nor doth he that so promiseth , when he hath done what lies in him remain obliged by this in any thing . Which surely amounted then to as much as this ( and hath been thousands of times objected by Princes and others ) that publick faith is not to be kept with Hereticks . And how little reason Protestants have to trust Papists not onely the actions of former Papists for a thousand years past , but also of late their actings in Ireland , Poland , Piedmont , shew .

Whom he means by the Popes flatterers , or particular Doctors , I do not well understand : should he call Bellarmine , Baronius , or such like men so , perhaps he may be served as Francis a St. Clara and others were . I judge H. T. to be a gross Flatterer in maintaining the Popes Supremacy and Infallibility , there being in this tenet no better than blasphemous Antichristian flattery , ascribing to some of the worst and oftentimes most ignorant men that which is due to the Son of God . And for his Corollary , I deny the Major and Minor both , sith that may be a true Church which hath neither local personal Succession , nor conspicuous Visibility , nor such Unity , Universality , Infallibility , Sanctity , Power of Miracles , Universal Bishop as H. T. requires as necessary to a true Church , nor hath he made it plain , that these marks do agree to the present Roman Church or Bishop , and no other , but his mistakes in these are shewed . I follow him in the rest .

ARTIC. VIII . Unwritten Tradition now no Rule of Faith .

The unwritten Tradition , which H. T. terms Apostolical , is not the true Rule of Christian Faith .

SECT. I.

The Argument for Apostolical Tradition unwritten as the Rule of Faith from the means of planting and conserving Faith at first is answered .

H. T. intitles his eighth Article of Apostolical Tradition , and saith , Our Tenet is , That the true Rule of Christian Faith is Apostolical Tradition , or a delivery of Doctrine from father to son , by hand to hand , from Christ and his Apostles , and nothing ought to be received as Faith , but what is proved to have been so delivered , which we prove thus .

The first Argument . That is now the true Rule of Faith which was the essential means of planting and conserving it at first : But oral and Apostolical Tradition , not written Books , was the essential means of planting and conserving it at first ; therefore oral and Apostolical Tradition not written Books is the true Rule of Faith . The Major is proved , because the Rule of Faith must be immutable , and the same in all Ages , as the Faith it self is . The Minor is proved , because the first Gospel was not written till eight years after the Death of Christ or thereabouts ; in which space the Apostles had preached and planted the Faith of Christ in many Nations over almost all the World . Add to this that many Ages were passed before all the Books of Scripture were dispersed and accepted for Canonical by the whole Church ; so that when any difference arose in points of Faith among the Christians of the first Age they were not to inquire what had been written , but whether the Apostles so taught .

Answ THis Doctor , whether it be by reason of his ignorance , or heedlesness , or malignity to the holy Scriptures , determines worse than his fellows , yea , against the Doctrine of the Trent Council and Pope Pius the fourths Bull. For whereas in the Trent Council , Sess. 4. it is said , that the truth and Discipline of Christ and his Apostles is contained in written Books and Traditions without writing , and would have both to be received with equal affection and reverence of piety ; and Pope Pius the fourth his Bull requires the admission of the sacred Scripture and Apostolical Tradition . H. T. concludes , that written Books are not the true Rule of Faith , but oral and Apostolical Tradition . If he had said , they had not been the entire Rule of Faith he had agreed with the Trent Council , and the Popes Bull ; but now he contradicts them as well as the Protestants , and his Argument doth as well conclude , that the holy Scripture is no part of the Rule of Faith , as that it is not the whole . But leaving him to be corrected by his fellows , let 's view his Dispute .

Setting aside his non-sense speech of being received as Faith , in stead of being received as the object of Faith , and taking Apostolical Tradition to be meant of that which is truly so called , I grant his Tenet , and say with him that the true Rule of Christian Faith is Apostolical Tradition , that is , the Doctrine which the Apostles delivered , or that delivery of Doctrine from father to son , by hand to hand , from Christ and his Apostles , and that nothing ought to be received as Faith , that is , a thing to be believed with a Christian divine Faith , which all Christians are bound to believe , but what is proved to have been so delivered . For though in general any divine revelation is to be the object of Christian Faith by whom or what way soever it be delivered , and God hath delivered divers revelations in the Books of the Old Testament , which are objects of Faith , yet sith now Christ and his Apostles have delivered those divine revelations as the oracles of God , and what the Apostles preached and thought needfull for us to know , and believe to salvation is written , and these Writings are conveyed from father to son by hand to hand , we grant the Tenet being meant of them , and yield further , that if they can prove there are Traditions truly Apostolical besides those which are written , and this Tradition , that those Books which we call holy Scripture are divine Writings , we will embrace them as things to be believed . But then , 1. We say it is manifest that in the Apostles days there were Traditions put on the Apostles which were not theirs , 2 Thess 2. 1. 2. That the Apostolical Tradition written is sufficient for faith to salvation . 3. That unwritten Traditions are uncertain , and much corrupted . 4. That there is no certain Rule to know which are Apostolical Traditions but by the Scripture or Apostolical Writings . 5. That neither the Popes nor Church of Rome nor general Councils determination is a sufficient assurance of Apostolical Tradition unwritten . 6. That therefore to us now the holy Scripture is the onely Rule of Christian faith and life . And to the Argument of H. T. I answer , 1. By denying the Major , giving this as a Reason , because the means of planting and conserving faith , though it were the essential means , yet is not the rule of faith necessarily , there being great difference between these two . The means of faith is any way God useth to beget it , as by dreams , visions , the speech of Balaam's Ass , his Prophecy , Caiaphas Prophecy , the Star which guided the Wise-men , Matth. 2. the Wives good conversation , 1 Pet. 3. 1. yet these are not the Rule of Faith , but the divine revelation it self . And if it were supposed any one of these , or any other , were the essential means of Faith , that is , that means by which Faith is , and without which it were not , yet it were not therefore the Rule of Faith , but the divine revelation or truth delivered by that means . And to the proof of the Major which seems to be thus formed , That is the true Rule of Faith which is immutable , and the same in all Ages , as the Faith it self is . But the essential means of planting and conserving it at first is immutable , and the same in all Ages , as the Faith it self is . Ergo. I answer , 1. By denying the Major , there are many things immutable , and the same in all Ages , as the Faith it self is , and yet are not the true Rule of Faith , as namely , Gods Decrees and purposes , the being of the Heavens , the obedience of the Angels , &c. 2. By denying the Minor . For whether the immediate Declaration of God to Adam , Gen. 3. 15. or Christ's preaching by himself were the essential means of planting and conserving Faith at first , or any other , yet it is not immutable , and the same in all Ages , as Faith it self . God's Declaration immediately , or Christ's preaching by himself are not the same in all Ages ; yea , Heb. 1. 1. it is said , that God hath spoken to us in divers manners , ways and times by the Prophets , and in these last days onely hath spoken to us by his Son , vers 2. & chap. 2. 3. The salvation was at first begun to be speken by the Lord , and since was confirmed by them that heard him : which shews the means to be variable , by which Faith is planted and conserved . The Apostle tells us , 1 Pet. 3. 1. that without the Word those that believe not the Word may be won by the conversation of the Wives : so that their good conversation was at first a means of converting them , and yet that was not to be the Rule of their Faith . Whence it may appear that this Argument goes upon these false Suppositions .

1. That there is some means essential to the planting and conserving of Faith at first . 2. That the same means is essential to the planting and conserving of Faith at first . 3. That this means is immutable and the same in all Ages as Faith it self . 4. That what is the means of planting and conserving Faith at first must be the true Rule of Faith .

2. I deny the Minor , that oral and Apostolical Tradition , not written Books , was the essential means of planting and conserving Faith at first . And to his proof I answer , that by oral and Apostolical Tradition , in his Tenet he means , a delivery of Doctrine from father to son , by hand to hand , from Christ and his Apostles : now if it be granted , there was no Gospel written till eight years after the death of Christ , or thereabouts , it must be granted also , that there was no delivery of Doctrine from father to son , by hand to hand , from Christ and his Apostles , but onely their preaching viva voce , with living speech , in their own persons , and therefore if that which was according to H. T. the essential means of planting and conserving Faith at first must be the true Rule of Faith still , and no other , then that Rule must neither be unwritten nor written delivery of Doctrine from father to son , by hand to hand , from Christ and his Apostles , but their own personal Tradition viva voce , which now ceasing there is no Rule of Faith at all left ; but the Quakers device of each mans light within him to be his Rule must take place . But to me the Rule of Faith is divine revelation , by what means soever it be delivered : be it the Law written in the heart or in the Book , by the signer of God in Tables of stone , or delivered by an Angel in a Dream , Vision , Apparition , by Christ , or his Apostles , or any other . But sith God hath been pleased to order it , be it sooner or later , that what Christ and his Apostles taught should be written , we are assured God would have us to take it for the Rule of our Faith , and if Scripture be not the Rule of our Faith Christ and his Apostles did not well to commend it to us , Luk. 16. 31. Joh. 5. 39. and to commend them that searched the Scriptures , Act. 17. 11. nor the Apostles to direct us to them , 1 Pet. 1. 19 , 20. 2 Tim. 3. 16. Rom. 15. 4. nor to allege them , Act. 3. 22. & 13. 33 , 34 , 35. nor Christ to have used them against the Tempter , Matth. 4. 4. 7. 10. nor to have imputed errour to the ignorance of them , Matth. 22 29. nor to have sent the Revelation of John to the seven Churches of Asia , with declaration of blessedness to the observers of it , and denunciation of a curse to the corrupters and infringers of it , Revel. 1. 1 , 3. & 22. 18 , 19. nor the Apostles to write a Letter to the Churches , Act. 15. 23. nor the Apostles to write several Epistles to several Churches . And if many Ages ( though I think H. T. therein doth exceed ) were passed before all the Books of Scripture were dispersed and accepted for Canonical by the whole Church ; yet it is certain some were , and they must be the Rule of Faith which were accepted . And when any difference arose in points of Faith among the Christians of the first Age , though they were to inquire of the Apostles what they taught , yet when they could not speak with them , they made use of their Letters written , as Acts 15. 31. 1 Cor. 7. &c. And if we are not to do so still , why doth this Authour allege Scripture for the Churches Infallibility , the Popes Supremacy , &c. and tells us here , pag. 113. There is no better way to decide Controversies than by the Scripture expounded by the Church , and according to the Rule of Apostolical Tradition ? But this is an evidence of Gods infatuating these Romanists , that though they have no shew of proof for Peter's Supremacy , and consequently the Popes , without the Scripture , and therefore allege it , yet determine it not to be the Rule of Faith , and so make void their own proof , and the very Rule of Faith , which they would fain establish .

SECT. II.

Unwritten Traditions are not proved to be the true Rule of Faith from the assurance thereby of the Doctrine and Books of Christ and his Apostles .

But let us view what he adds . A second Argument is , That is the true Rule of Faith by which we may be infallibly assured both what Doctrines Christ and his Apostles taught , and what Books they wrote , and without which we can never be infallibly assured of these things . But by Apostolical Tradition we may infallibly be assured both what Doctrines Christ and his Apostles taught , and what Books they wrote , and by no other means . Therefore Apostolical Tradition is the true Rule of Faith . The Major is manifest , because in the Doctrine which Christ and his Apostles taught , and the Books which they wrote are contained all things that are of Faith ; therefore the infallible means of knowing them is the infallible and true Rule of Faith . The Minor is proved , because a full report from whole worlds of fathers to whole worlds of sons of what they heard and saw is altogether infallible , since sensible evidence in a world of Witnesses unanimously concurring is altogether infallible , how fallible soever men may be in their particulars ; and such a report , such an evidence is Apostolical Tradition , for all the Doctrinos Christ and his Apostles taught and all the Books they wrote therefore infallible .

Answ. THe Popish Tenet is , that unwritten Traditions of other points than what are in the written Books are the Rule of Faith , that so what they cannot prove out of Scripture of Peter's being at Rome , being Bishop there , Purgatory-fire , Invocation of Saints , Adoration of the Host , mixing Water with Wine in the Eucharist , and many more , which Popes and Popish Councils obtrude on the Church of God as Apostolical Traditions , may be received as Objects of Faith . But here H. T. concludes Apostolical Tradition is the true Rule of Faith , and proves it of no other Apostolical Tradition but that whereby the Books written are known to be the Apostles , which I might grant , and yet H. T. gain nothing for his purpose , sith Apostolical Tradition may be the true Rule of Faith , and yet not Apostolical Tradition unwritten , much less that which Popes and Councils call Apostolical Tradition , which is every corruption that hath been any long time received in the Roman Church : and this Apostolical Tradition infallible [ that the Books of holy Scripture were written by the holy men whose names they bear , and that the things in them related are certain ] and yet other Traditions of other things not so . But to his Argument , I say , the Major is not true , nor is it proved by his reason , which in form is this , That is the true Rule of Faith in which are contained all things that are of Faith . But in the Doctrines which Christ and his Apostles taught , and the Books which they wrote , are contained all things that are of Faith . The Conclusion which followeth from these premises is not his Major , [ that is the true Rule of Faith , by which we may be infallibly assured both what Doctrines Christ and his Apostles taught , and what Books they wrote , and without which we can never be infallibly assured of those things ] nor the Conclusion set down , [ therefore the infallible means of knowing them is the infallible and true Rule of Faith ] for these terms , [ that by which we may be assured of the Doctrines or Books , the infallible means of knowing them ] are not the same with [ the Books or Doctrines in which are contained all things that are of Faith ] and therefore the Major is not proved , but indeed the very Protestant Doctrine which he gainsays is proved unawares thus . That in which are contained all things that are of Faith is the true Rule of Faith . But in the Doctrines which Christ and his Apostles taught , and the Books which they wrote , are contained all things that are of Faith ; therefore the Doctrines which Christ and his Apostles taught , and the Books which they wrote , are the true Rule of Faith . Which proves directly what H. T. denies , that the Scripture is the true Rule of Faith , and shews , that he mistook the means of Faith for the Rule of Faith , between which there is manifest difference , the means of Faith being any outward or inward efficient , principal or instrumental , by which a person comes to believe , the Rule is that by which we know what we are to believe : the same means may be the means of believing contrary things : Caiaphas and Balaam may prophesie right things of Israel , and be a means of expectation of the Messiab , and yet also be a means of laying a stumbling-block to overthrow them . A messenger , that brings a grant , wherein a Prince grants a thing , is the means of belief , and so is the Seal , but the Rule of believing is the words of the grant : Thomas his seeing and feeling were the means of his believing Christ's Resurrection , but the Rule was Christ's words .

2. I deny his Minor . For though I grant such a full report , as he speaks of , is infallible , nor do I deny , that there is such a a report , or such an evidence for all the Doctrines Christ and his Apostles taught , and all the Books they wrote , yet I say , 1. That this is not the Apostolical Tradition , which Papists assert ; for with them any thing used in their Church a long time , and approved by a Pope , or a Council confirmed by him is an Apostolical Tradition , though it have not such report , or evidence . 2. That there are other means by which we may be assured , what Doctrines Christ and his Apostles taught , and what Books they wrote , besides this full report , as , 1. The inward testimony of the holy Spirit . 2. The innate characters of the Doctrine , and Books themselves foretelling things to come , opening the Mysteries of God , advancing Gods glory , enlightning and converting the soul , with many more which shew whose the Doctrine and Books were . Yet by the way I observe , 1. That notwithstanding he makes here such an Infallibility in the report and evidence of sense , yet pag. 205. he denies evidence of sense infallible in the Sacrament , and thereby overthrows his Position here . 2. From his words here I argue against his opinion of Transubstantiation thus , A full report from whole worlds of fathers to whole worlds of sons of what they heard and saw is altogether infallible , since sensible evidence in a world of ey-witnesses unanimously concurring is altogether infallible , how fallible soever men may be in their particulars . But there are worlds of ey-witnesses , and hand-witnesses , and tongue-witnesses , and nose-witnesses , and ear-witnesses of fathers and sons who all unanimously concurring discern , and say of what they have seen , felt , heard , tasted , smelled , that there is no flesh nor blood , but Bread and Wine in the consecrated Host , therefore the report that there is no flesh and blood but Bread and Wine in the Eucharist after Consecration or consecrated Host , and consequently no Transubstantiation is altogether infallible . So inconsistent are this Authours sayings in one place with that he saith in another , as indeed Popish Doctrine being a Lie must of necessity be self-repugnant .

SECT. III.

The obligation of the Church not to deliver any thing as a point of Faith , but what they received , proves not unwritten Traditions a Rule of Faith .

H. T. proceeds thus . A third Argument . If Christ and his Apostles have given to the Church of the first Age [ together with all points of Faith ] this for the Rule of Faith , that nothing on pain of Damnation ought to be delivered for Faith , but what they had received from them as such , then is was impossible that they should deliver any thing for Faith to the second Age , but what they had received from them as such , and so from Age to Age to this time . But Christ and his Apostles did give to the Church of the first Age , [ together with all points of Faith ] this for the Rule of Faith , that nothing on pain of Damnation ought to be delivered for Faith , but what they received from them as such . Therefore it was impossible that the Church of the first Age should deliver any thing to the Church of the second Age for Faith , but what they had received as such from Christ and his Apostles , or consequently that they should erre in Faith . The Major is proved , because to make her deliver more for Faith than she had received , in this supposition the whole Church must either have forgotten what she had been taught from her infancy in matters of Salvation and Damnation , which is impossible in a world of ear and ey-witnesses , as hath been shewed ; or else the whole Church must have so far broken with Reason , which is the very nature of man , as to conspire in a notorious Lie to damn her self and posterity by saying she hath received such or such a point for Faith , which in her own conscience she knew she had not received ; and this is more impossible than the former , even as impossible as for men not to be men ; as shall be shewed in the next Argument . The Minor is proved by these positive Texts of Scripture , Therefore brethren stand ye fast , and hold the Traditions which ye have learned , whether by word or our Epistle , 2 Thess. 2. 15. Those things which ye have been taught , and heard , and seen in me , these do ye , Phil. 4. So we have preached , and so ye have believed , 1 Cor. 14. 15. How shall they believe in whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a Preacher ? Rom. 10. 17. The things that thou hast heard of me before many witnesses , the same commend thou to faithfull men , which shall be fit to teach others also , 2 Tim. 2. 2. If any man shall preach otherwise than ye have received , let him be Anathema , Gal. 1. 9. Although we or an Angel from Heaven preach to you besides that which we have preached to you , be he Anathema , Gal. 1. 8.

Answ. 1. THe Conclusion , were it granted , is not the Position to be proved , that the true Rule of Christian Faith is Apostolical oral Tradition , not Books ; nor is it included in it , sith some in the Church , although not the whole Church of the first Age , might deliver to the Church of the second Age , and so from father to son that for Faith , which was not received from Christ or his Apostles , and it be after received as from the Apostles , as is manifest in the reports of keeping Easter on the fourteenth of the Moon , of the Millenary opinion , as from John , and in points of Faith the whole Church might mistake or forget , not deliver all truth , yea , might erre , and so not be fit to be a Rule of Faith . 2. Were it granted that unwritten Traditions of the whole Church of the first Age to the second were a Rule of Faith , yet are not the Romanists Traditions unwritten proved Rules of Faith , unless they be proved to be delivered by the whole Church of the first Age to the Church of the second Age , and so from father to son without alteration , which they cannot prove . Nevertheless , sith this Argument tends to the asserting of an Infallibility in the Church of the first Age distinctly taken from the Apostles and their Writings ; I grant the Minor , and omit the examining of the Texts brought to prove it , though some of them yield a good Argument against unwritten Tradition : But I deny the Major , as being contrary to experience both in the Jewish Church , to whom it was forbidden to add to , or diminish from Gods commands , Deut. 4. 2. and yet they did , Mark 7. 8. 9. and in the Christian Church , as is most evident in the Traditions of the Chiliasts , about Easter , and sundry other things . And though the whole Church of the first Age did not deliver points of Faith to the second Age , yet in the second and after-ages corruptions did come in , which were taken for universal Traditions , as in giving Infants the Eucharist , which Augustine and Pope Innocentius took for an Apostolical Tradition , though the Trent Council condemn it . And many things there are now taken for Apostolical Traditions , as Worship of Images , praying to Saints , not allowing the Wine to be drunk by all the Communicants , which yet are manifestly repugnant to the Apostles Doctrine .

As for the proof of H. T. I say , 1. The eye and ear-witnesses of all the points of Faith are not a whole World . 2. Errours may be traduced as from the whole Church of the first Age , and from the Apostles which were not from them . 3. The Church delivers not Doctrines , but the Teachers in them , whereof many sometimes are Hypocrites , sometimes weak in understanding , all of them being men are liable to mistakes , passion , forgetfulness , inadvertency , and those that are not sincere may against their conscience deliver errours . Sure if Polycarpus an Auditour of John the Evangelist , and Anicetus Bishop of Rome in the second Age , Polycrates and Pope Victor in the same Age , Cyprian and Pope Stephanus in the next contradicted each other about Traditions , no marvel later and inferiour Teachers , such as Papias a credulous man , and others mistook about them , and the after Churches follow them in their mistakes . 4. The Churches were in the Apostles days easily drawn away from the Doctrine , which Paul had evidently taught them by hearkening to Seducers , as the Galatians , Gal. 3. 1. though the Apostle warned them Gal. 1. 8 , 9. neither therefore the warning given them , nor any state of the Church in this life yields sufficient security of not being deceived , nor deceiving others . The Church and Teachers thereof may not onely be men , and have reason , but also good men and conscionable , and warned not to deliver any thing but Christ's and his Apostle's Doctrine to be believed under pain of Damnation , and yet may build Hay and Stubble , and be saved as through fire , though their Building suffer loss , keeping the Foundation , and repenting of all sins and errours , though some be secret and unknown to them . Let us see what is in the next Argument , which he terms the last Argument for Traditions .

SECT. IV.

Counterfeits might and did come into the Church under the name of Apostolick Tradition without such a force as H. T. imagines necessary thereto even in points of Faith .

To make , saith H. T. a whole world of wise and disinterested men break so far with their own nature as to conspire in a notorio●n Lie to damn themselves and their posterity ( which is the onely means to make an Apostolical Tradition fallible ) such a force of hopes or fears must fall upon them all at once , as may be stronger than nature in them . But such a force of hopes or fears can never fall on the whole World or Church at once , which is dispersed over all Nations , therefore it is impossible for the whole World or Church at once to conspire in such a Lie , or consequently to erre in Faith .

Answ. THis Argument concludes for the Churches Infallibility , which was the fifth Article , not for Traditions , as is pretended in this Article . But that the Church militant and all their Teachers setting aside the Apostles , are fallible is proved before , and how the whole Church of later ages may be not onely fallible , but also deceived and deceive others without breaking with their own nature so far as to conspire in a notorious Lie to damn themselves and their posterity , and without such a force of fears or hopes falling upon them all at once as may be stronger than nature to them , hath been shewed before both by reason and experience , and our Lord Christ hath told us it would be , that while men sleep the Enemy would come and sow Tares , Matth. 13. 25. and the Apostle tells us , 1 Cor. 11. 19. that there must be Heresies by Gods permission , that they which are approved may be made manifest : Jude 4. there were certain men crept in unawares ordained of old to this condemnation : 2 Pet. 2. 1. 1 John 4. 1. And accordingly it fell out in the Christian Church , as Eusebius notes out of Egesippus lib. 3. hist. cap. 29. The Church of Christ remained a pure and uncorrupt Virgin unto the times of the Apostles , but after their decease , and those that heard them , there was a conspiracy of corrupters , which did lurk before that boldly vented knowledge , falsly so called , much of which was published under the name of Apostolical Tradition . Irenaeus lib. 2. advers. haeret . cap. 39. saith , In his days it was reported as from John , that Christ lived to the fiftieth year of his Age by all the Elders of Asia , which met with John the Disciple of the Lord , that John delivered it to them . Nor is this to imagine men to break with their nature , but to follow their nature , which is in all corrupt , in the best imperfect . As for what H. T. tells us of a whole World of wise and disinterested men , it is an Utopia in a countrey called no where , but in H. T. his brain . Surely the wisest and disinterested men of Fathers and other Preachers have still stood to the Scriptures , and have disowned unwritten Traditions , as not being a true Rule of Faith . Popes and Popish Councils who have been the sticklers for Traditions unwritten , as they have been none of the wisest with any holy wisdom , but serpentine craft , so have they bent all their endeavours to uphold Traditions for their interest of greatness and gain , being necessitated to 〈◊〉 unwritten Traditions , because their Doctrines cannot be maintained out of Scripture . He that shall reade the History of the Council of Trent written by Frier Paul of Venice ( in which Council Traditions unwritten were first equalled to Scripture ) may perceive , that if ever there were a pack of deceivers and deceived men it was at Trent , the Bishops generally being unlearned in the Scriptures , many of them meer Canonists , and such as understood not the Disputes in the Congregations , and the Divines a company of wrangling Sophisters inured onely to School-principles and arguings without skill in the Scriptures , and the Popes Legates and Italian Bishops depending on the Court of Rome , never applying themselves to search out truth , but to hinder any the least breaking forth of it , if it opposed any profit or advantage of the Popes and Court of Rome , and any thing that tended to justifie the Protestants , whom they would never permit to speak for themselves : nor were they willing any thing should be concluded , but what the Pope ( of all that ever were in the World the most notorious corrupter and Tyrant in the Church of God ) liked . And he that shall reade the Book not long since published , intituled the Mystery of Jesuitism , will finde , that the chiefest Leaders now in the Popish Churches , the Jesuits , who are for the Traditions of the Church of Rome , are wholly bent , though against Scripture and Fathers , to carry on their own interest by any devices whatsoever without regard either to Rules of Scripture or of Morality delivered by infidel Philosophers . So that the talk of H. T. concerning a World of wise and disinterested men among Popish Teachers is like the talk of a company of honest Women in a society of notorious Whores , or of just men in a Band of Robbers .

H. T. adds . It is the assurance of this impossibility that moves the Church of the present Age to resolve her Faith and Doctrines into the precedent Age , and so from Age to Age , from sons to fathers up to the mouth of Christ and his Apostles teaching it , saying , We believe it because we have received it .

Answ. 1. This resolution of Faith not into the Scriptures testimony , but the testimony of the next age , and so upwards , and thereby judging what Christ and his Apostles taught , can beget no other than a humane Faith , sith in this way Christ and his Apostles are supposed to teach what the succeeding ages have taught : nor is it any better than an uncertain way , sith in some ages it cannot be known what was taught in many points of controversie , for as much as this Authour confesseth , pag. 25. There was no general or provincial Council that decided any Controversies of moment in the tenth Age , which and the next before it are by Genebrard and Bellarmine counted unhappy for want of learned men : nor can this be any other than a fraudulent device to draw men from immediate searching into the Scriptures for their Faith , and prepossessing them with the Doctrines of the present age , which once received , very few , except men very learned and impartial inquisitours into the truth , will be able to examine , and in effect that which the Pope and his Council have or shall determine must be taken for unquestionable : nor is this reasonable , but against all right way of understanding , that we should apply our selves to know what Christ and his Apostles taught sixteen hundred years ago , rather by the present and precedent ages after the times wherein they lived , than by their own Wri●ings ; as if a man might better know what Legacy his great grand-father ●ave an hundred years ago by the testimony of men now living , than by his ●wn Will upon record . 2. The pretence for this resolution is but imaginary and fictitious , and refuted by experience . Surely if there were such an impossibility as this Authour speaks of , the whole World had not been corrupted as it was in Noa●'s and Abraham's days , nor the Church of Israel as it was in the days of the Judges , of Elias , Manasseh , our Lord Christ at his coming in the flesh , in the time of Athanasius , when as Hierom said , The whole world groaned that it was become Arian , there would not be such a falling away , as the Apostle foretold , 1 Tim. 4. 1. 2. Thess. 2 4 at which time the Rhemists grant in their note on that place , that even the service of Christ shall be suppressed . And therefore the impossibility here supposed by H. T. is but imaginary out of inadverteney of what the Scripture hath related and foretold , and ignorance of the great corruption of man and the power of the old Serpent called the Devil and Satan , which deceiveth the whole World , Revel. 12. 9.

3. But what Church is there that so resolves her Faith ? none that I know of besides the Roman , or rather the Court of Rome . For I do not yet think that either the Greek , Asiatick , or African Churches do so resolve their Faith , no nor yet some of those Churches who do hold communion with the Roman See ; nay , I hardly think the Church or Court of Rome it self doth resolve it's Faith ( such as it is ) as H. T. here speaks : I instance in one main point , that the Pope is above a Council . For sure if that be their resolution they will be cast , sith the precedent age , I mean the fifteenth century did deliver by hand to hand from father to son that a general Council is above the Pope , as the two so termed general Councils of Basil and Constance did expresly determine . And in other points in difference between Protestants and Papists , if they go from age to age upwards , Papists would finde themselves destitute of Tradition unwritten as well as written , in the half communion , Papal indulgences , worship of Images , and many more besides . So that however this Authour pretend Tradition of a world of fathers to a world of sons , when he and his party are put to it they have not any ancient universal Tradition elder than the sixteenth century for the chief point of the Papacy the Popes Supremacy and Infallibility , and therein the Pope and his packed Council of Trent are the great World , he means at which were at some determinations of great moment about fifty Bishops such as they were , and some of them but titular , and in other points there hath been no Tradition , but what hath been gainsaid ; and therefore in fine , the Papists faith is resolved into the Popes and Council of Trents determination , which is the Catholick Church with Papists , as is manifest by the words of this Authour here , p. 70. where he makes the Church which he counts infallible , A Council called out of the whole World , and approved by the Pope , which he judgeth the Trent Council to be , pag. 76. and if the Catholick Church do resolve its faith into the catholick churches tradition , what is this but to resolve its faith into its own tradition ? at least the catholick church represented in an oecumenical council approved by the Pope must resolve its faith into it self , Pius the fourth and the Trent Bishops must resolve their faith into their own tradition , and so must believe what they believe in points of Christian Faith , because they hold so , and judge themselves infallible ; and if so , it would be known whether they did believe the same things before they did determine them in a council ; if not , they defined what they did not believe ; if they did , then it would be known upon what tradition they did believe them , if they name the tradition of the foregoing age , the same questions will be put , and the answer must be either at last to resolve it into Scripture , or some fallible men , or the process will be endless , or it must rest in the determination of the present church catholick , properly so called , or general council , or Pope , or else the questions wil return , and the arguing will be circular . Yet there are these Reasons why Papists make shew of this way of resolving their faith into the churches tradition unwritten , 1. Because they would not have their Doctrines and Faith tried by the holy Scriptures alone , nor in the first place , nor by the Doctours of the first five hundred years . 2. Because they know that few either of the learned or unlearned can track them in this way , it being impossible for any but men of very great reading and very accurate criticks to discern truth in this way by reason of the multitude of Nations in which the Church hath been , whereof some are unknown to some other Churches , the impossibility to know what each church throughout the World held in every age , the difficulty of travel , the variety of Languages , the multitude and uncertainty of Authours , especially since they have been gelded and altered by the Indices expurgatorii , and practises of Monks and other Scribes , the foisting in bastard treatises under the names of approved Authours . For which reason it is that they decline as much as they can trial of their Doctrine by Scripture , pretending difficulties where there are either none , or such as might be removed , though by their course they cast men into insuperable difficulties , and when they are necessitated to let people have the Scripture in the vulgar Language by reason of importunity of adversaries , yet they so pervert it by corrupt Translations and notes ( as in the Rhemist's Testament is manifest ) that people have much ado without much diligence to finde out their deceits .

SECT. V.

The Romanists can never gain their cause by referring the whole trial of Faith to the arbitrement of Scripture , but will be proved by it to have revolted from Christianity .

Yet H. T. hath the face to say , But if we refer the whole trial of faith to the arbitrement of Scripture , I see nothing more evident , than that this one Argument ad hominem , gives the cause into our hands , since it clearly proves either many controverted Catholick Doctrines are sufficiently contained in Scripture , or many Protestant ones are not ; and thus I frame my discourse . All Protestant Tenets ( say you ) are sufficiently contained in Scripture ; but many Catholick Doctrines ( say I ) denied by Protestants are as evident in Scripture , as divers Protestant Tenets ; therefore many Catholick Doctrines denied by Protestants are sufficiently contained in Scripture . He that has hardiness enough to deny this Conclusion let him compare the Texts that recommend the Churches authority in deciding controversies , and expounding Articles of Faith with these that support the Protestant private spirit , or particular judgement of discretion ; let him compare the places that favour priestly Absolution with those on which they ground their necessity ( not to stand upon the lawfulness ) of Infant-baptism , let him compare the passages of the Bible for the real presence of our Saviours body in the Eucharist , for the primacy of St. Peter , for the authority of Apostolical Traditions , though unwritten , with what ever he can cite , to prove the three distinct persons in the blessed Trinity , the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father , the procession of the holy Ghost from both , the obligation of the Sunday in stead of the Sabbath , so expresly commanded in the Moral Law ; and when he has turned over all his Bible as often as he pleases , I shall offer him onely this request , either to admit the Argument or teach me to answer it .

Answ. H. T. sure hath a singular eyesight , which sees such an evidence in this Argument , as that he sees nothing more evident . What ? is not this more evident , that the whole is bigger than a part , that God made the World , that the Word was made Flesh ( Sure an Argument ad hominem is no demonstration , specially when what the man holds at one time upon second and better thoughts he relinquisheth : nor is an argument ad hominem fit to establish any truth , but somewhat to lessen the opinion of the man who is thereby convinced of holding inconsistencies ; and therefore the cause is not given into H. T. and his fellows hands , that unwritten traditions are a Rule of Faith , or that Popish Doctrine is grounded on Scripture , because some Protestant tenets have no better proof thence than some Popish tenets denied to be contained in the Scripture .

But that I may gratifie H. T. ( as much as in me lieth ) in his request , I tell him , The Syllogism is in no Mood or Figure that I know , nor ( if I would examine the form of it ) do I doubt , but that I should finde four terms in it at least , and then H. T. it is likely knows his Sy●logism is naught . Nor do I know how to form it better , unless it be formed dis-junctively : but it belongs not to me to form his Weapons for him . To it as I finde it I say , that if he mean , that all Protestant tenets simply are sufficiently contained in Scripture , who ever he be that saith so , yet I dare not say so : But this I think , that all , or most of the tenets which the Protestants hold against the Papists in the points of Faith and Worship , which are controverted between them , are sufficiently contained in the Scripture , and all of them ought to be , or else they may be rejected . And for his Minor I deny it , if he mean it of those Protestant tenets in points of Faith , which are held by all , or those that are avouched by common consent in the harmony of their confessions , excepting some about Discipline , Ceremonies , and Sacraments . And for his instances , to the first I say , I am willing any Reader , who reades what is written on both sides in the fifth Article here , should judge whether hath more evidence in Scripture , the Churches imagined infallible authority in deciding controversies , or that each person is to use his own understanding to try what is propounded to be believed without relying on any authority of Pope , general Council , or Prelates , who are never called the Church in Scripture . And for the second , I do not take it to be a Protestant tenet , that Infant-baptism is necessary ; and for the lawfulness , I grant , there is as much evidence in Scripture for Priests judiciary sacramental authoritative Absolution as for it , that is none at all for either . And for the third , there are Protestants , that grant a real presence of our Saviour's body in the Eucharist , as the Lutherans , and some Calvinists grant also a real presence to the worthy receiver , but not bodily , but for the real presence by Transubstantion there is not the least in Scripture of it self , as Scotus long ago resolved . And for the Primacy of St. Peter , it hath been told this Authour , that a Primacy of order , of zeal , and some other endowments , is yielded by Protestants , but Supremacy of Jurisdiction over the Apostles is denied , and it is proved before , Article 7. to have no evidence in Scripture . And for the authority of Apostolical traditions , though unwritten , ( if there were any such truly so called ) I should not deny it , but that there are any such which are a rule of faith now to us , he hath not proved in this Article , nor brought one Text for it , but some far-fetcht Reasons of no validity . But I presume his brethren will give him little thanks for gratifying so much the Antitrinitarians , Arians , Socinians , as to yield , that those points which are in the Nicene and Athanasius his Creed , and were determined in the first general Councils are no better proved from Scripture than Transubstantiation , the Popes Supremacy and unwritten Traditions being a Rule of Faith . Are not these Texts Matth. 28. 19. 1 John 5. 7. John 1. 1. 1 John 5. 20. and many more which Bellarmine lib. 1. de Christo brings to prove the Trinity of persons , the Sons consubstantiality , the Spirits procession more evident than , this is my Body , for Transubstantiation , Thou art Peter , for the Popes Supremacy ; and H. T. his Scriptureless reasoning for unwritten Traditions ? Bellarmine lib. 4. de verbo Dei , cap. 11. and elsewhere acknowledgeth the tenets about Gods nature , and the union of natures in Christ to be plainly in Scripture .

As for Sunday being in stead of the Sabbath , he should me thinks allow somewhat in Scripture for it , Col. 2. 16. Acts 20 7. 1 Cor. 16. 1 , 2. Revel. 1. 10. more evident than for his real presence , Peter's Supremacy , unwritten Traditions . But I see prejudice doth much to sway men , and make them see what others cannot . The Crow thinks her own Bird fairest .

Yet again , saith H. T. The same Syllogism may with equal evidence be applied to the negative , as well as positive Doctrines on either side . All Catholick points denied by Protestants are sufficiently ( say you ) condemned in Scripture . But many points imbraced by Protestants are as clearly ( say I ) condemned in Scripture , as divers they deny in opposition to Catholicks ; therefore many points embraced by Protestants are sufficiently condemned in Scripture . Where does the Bible so plainly forbid Prayer for the Dead , as this darling Errour and fundamental Principle of Protestancy , that any one however ignorant , however unstable , ought to reade the holy Scriptures , and unappealably judge of their sense by his private interpretation ? Where is it so plainly forbidden to adore Christ in what place soever we believe him to be really present , as it is to work upon the Saturday ? Thus if the Bible be constituted sole Rule of Religion , Protestants clearly can neither condemn the Catholick , nor justifie their own .

Answ. The Conclusion may be granted , that many points embraced by Protestants are sufficiently condemned in Scripture without any detriment to the Protestant cause : Protestants do not pretend to Infallibility , but that the tenets in point of Faith , which in opposition to Papists their Harmony of Confessions avoucheth are sufficiently condemned in Scripture , is more than H. T. or any other can prove . To his Syllogism I answer , by denying his Minor . And to his instances I answer , the Prayer for the Dead , which Protestants say is forbidden plainly in Scripture , is Popish Prayer for the Dead to have them eased or delivered out of Purgatory : now this we say is condemned plainly in Scripture . 1. Because it supposeth a belief of a Purgatory-place in Hell , which is an Errour , and every Errour is condemned in Scripture , as contrary to truth . 2. All Prayer is condemned , which is not agreeable to the Rules of Prayer ; now the Rules of Prayer in Scripture are , that we should pray in Faith , James 1. 6. Ask the things which are according to the will of God , 1 John 5. 14. Not for him that sins unto death , vers . 16. But to ask for deliverance out of Purgatory , when there is no such place , nor God hath promised any such thing , is not in Faith , nor according to Gods will , but is as vain as to ask for him that sins unto death , it is all one as to pray that the elect Angels or Devils should be delivered thence , which were a Mockery of God . 3. God forbids Jeremiah to pray for that which he would not hear him , in Jer. 14. 11. therefore Prayer for the Dead to be delivered out of Purgatory , in which God will not hear , is by parity of reason condemned , as if a man should pray that the Reprobate should not be damned , or the Elect should not be saved .

The Protestants say not , that every one , however ignorant or unstable , ought unappealably to judge of the sense of all Scriptures by his private interpretation . There are plain Scriptures and Points fundamental , and of these they say they may and ought to judge of their sense each one by his own private interpretation , if by it be meant his own understanding , but not if by it be meant a peculiar fancy such as no man else conceives , nor the words import : but they say in difficult places and points not fundamental they ought not to judge of their sense unappealably , that is , so as not to use the help of the learned , in which number Fathers and Councils have their place , and especially their own Teachers , to finde out the meaning of them : yet when they have used means , they may , and must suspend any judgement at all , or stick to that which in their own understanding seems most probable , or else they must go against their own conscience , which were sin , or they must be Hypocrites , saying , they judge that to be so , which they do not , yea , there should be an impossibility in nature granted , that a man at the same time doth judge that to be the sense of the same thing which he doth not : but they deny , that a man ought so to rest on any Pope , or Councils , or Doctours judgement , as to hold what they hold without any other proof , though it be in their apprehension against Scripture , sith that is plainly condemned , Matth. 23. 10. And they hold that every man , that hath the use of natural understanding ought to reade the Scripture , John 5. 39. Col. 3. 16. Rom. 15. 4. 2. Tim. 3. 15 , 16. and to judge their sense in this manner , and this is no Errour , much less a darling Errour of Protestancy . Nor can H. T. prove it any where condemned in Scripture . As for the place 2 Pet. 3. 16. to which his words seem to allude , it proves not the reading of the Scripture or judging of the sense to be condemned , yea ver. 3. 15. proves the contrary , that Christians should reade Paul's Epistles , in which those things are which are hard to be understood . onely it condemns the wresting of them to their perdition by the unlearned and unstable , which Protestants do condemn as well as Papists .

It is not forbidden to adore Christ in what place soever he is , but 1. It is an Errour contrary to an Article of Faith to conceive Christ in a Wafer-cake on earth , called the Host by Papists , whom we believe to be in Heaven at the right hand of God , and of whom it is said , that the Heaven must contain him till the times of the restitution of all things . Acts 3. 21. and so it is forbidden to adore that Bread , as if Christ's Body were there , it being a belief of an Errour contrary to an Article of Faith . 2. It is flat Idolatry to adore with divine Worship a piece of Bread , though taken to be the Body of Christ , it being forbidden , Matth. 4. 10. Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him onely shalt thou serve . Nor can the imagination of a person acquit the person that does it from Idolatry . For if it could , the Worship of the golden calf , which the Israelites proclaimed to be the Gods that brought them out of Egypt , Exod. 32. 8. and worshipped God thereby , vers. 4. 5 , 8. Micah's Worship of his molten Image of the Silver , which he dedicated to the Lord , Judges 17. 2 3 4 and Jeroboam's Worship of the golden Calf , 1 Kings 12. 28. yea , all the Idolatry of the Heathens who worshipped those things which were no Gods should be excused , because they thought them Gods , or intended to worship God by them . As for working upon the Saturday , it is true , it was forbidden to the Jews ; but we conceive it not forbidden to us , because the Jewish Sabbath is abrogated , Col. 2. 16. And if H. T. do not think so , he doth Judaize , and if he hold the Lord's day and the Saturday Sabbath too , he agrees with the Ebionites , mentioned by Eusebius , lib. 3. hist. ●ap . 27. so that it is utterly false , that if the Bible be constituted sole Rule of Religion , Protestants clearly can neither condemn the Catholick , no justifie their own . B●t it is rather true , which Dr. Carleton in his little Book of the Church avouched , that the now Roman Church is proved not to be the true Church of Christ , because in the Trent Council the Romanists have altered the Rule of Faith . And for my part , to my best understanding I do judge , that the Romanists are not to be reckoned amongst Christians , though they call themselves so , but that as by their worshipping of Images , burning Incense to them , praying to a Crucifix , adoring the Host , and almost all their Worship , and in their invocating of Saints and Angels as Mediatours to God they are departed from the two great points of Christianity , 1 Tim. 2. 5. 1 Cor. 8. 6. Ephes. 4. 5 , 6. and thereby are become Pagans ; so by their substituting of another Rule of Religion than the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles in their Writings , to wit , unwritten Traditions , which are nothing else but the Determinations of Popes and Councils approved by him , they do prove themselves not to be Disciples of Christ , which is all one with Christians , Acts 11. 26. and accordingly are not to be judged a church of Christ , but Papists ( which name Bellarmine , lib. de not is Eccles. cap. 4. doth not disown ) or the Popes Church truly Antichristian .

SECT. VI.

Sayings of Fathers and Councils prove not unwritten Traditions a Rule of Faith .

H. T. recites the sayings of eight Fathers and two Councils for Tradition . The first of Irenaus lib. 3. cap. 4. doth not at all prove that we have now unwritten Traditions for a Rule of Faith , but that if the Apostles ( in stead of which fraudulently , as I fear H. T. puts , If the Fathers ) had left us no Scripture at all , ought we not to follow the order of Tradition which they delivered , to whom they committed the Churches . To understand which it is to be noted , that Irenaeus having proved Valentinus his Doctrines of Aeones or more Gods and Lords than one to be false out of the Scriptures , chap. 2. he speaks thus of the Valentinian Hereticks , When they are reproved out of Scriptures they are turned into accusation of the Scriptures themselves , as if they were not right , nor from authority ; and because they are diversly said , and because the truth cannot be found out of these by those who know not Tradition . For that truth was not delivered by Letters , but by living voice , ( which is the very Plea for Traditions , which H. T. here useth ) for which cause Paul said , We speak wisdom among them that are perfect , as they took themselves to be , and said , They were wiser than either Presbyters or Apostles , and would neither consent to Scriptures nor Tradition ; and then cap. 3. shews the Tradition of the Apostles by what was preached in the Churches founded by them ; and to avoid prolixity refers to Linus , Anacletus , Clemens at Rome , and to Polycarpus and his Successours at Smyrna , and after useth the words mentioned chap. 4. which do not at all mention Tradition in all after ages as a Rule , but the Tradition from the Apostles to them that knew the Apostles , and that onely in the main point of Faith concerning God the Creatour , and onely upon supposition there had been no Scripture , and that after he had alleged the Scripture to stop the course of Hereticks that declined the Scripture . Whence it is apparent , 1. That Irenaeus counted Scripture the constant Rule of Faith . 2. That he counted Tradition unwritten a Rule onely upon supposition , that the Apostles had not left us Scripture . 3. No Tradition to be that Rule , but what was from men acquainted with Apostles . 4. To be used onely in case men were so perverse as to decline Scripture : which is our case in dealing with Papists , which moved Bishop Jewel in his Sermon at Paul's Cross to offer , that if the Papists could prove the Articles then enumerated by antiquity of the first five hundred years after Christ he would subscribe : which neither Harding , nor Bellarmine , nor Perron , nor any of the Romanists could or can do . The words of Tertullian lib. de praescript . advers. Haeret. cap. 21. 37. are indeed , that the Doctrine is to be held which the Church had from the Apostles , the Apostles from Christ , Christ from God . But he expresseth how he means it , when he saith in the same place , But what the Apostles have preached , that is , what Christ hath revealed to them , I will also prescribe that it ought to be no otherwise proved but by the same Churches , which the Apostles themselves built , they themselves by preaching to them , as well by living voice ( as they say ) as by Epistles afterwards . Which plainly shews that Tertullian mentioned no other Doctrine to be received from the Churches than what the Apostles after wrote , nor from any other Churches than those which the Apostles by preaching built , by which he means the Corinthian , Philippick , Thessalonian , Ephesian , as well as Roman , chap. 36. And though he use against Valentinus , Marcion , and other Hereticks , the Tradition of those Churches , yet chap. 8. he plainly directs to the Scriptures , as the way to finde Christ by using his words to the Jews , John 5. 39. Search the Scriptures in which ye hope for salvation : for they do speak of me . This will be , Seek and ye shall finde . Which being considered , it will appear , that Tertullian was far from asserting unwritten Traditions of things not contained in Scripture delivered in these later ages , and called Apostolical by Popes and Councils , the Rule of Faith . Cyprian's words lib. 2. Epist. cap. 3. ad Cacilium in some Editions , Epist. 63. shew his mistake about Traditions , as he counted the mingling of Water and Wine in the Eucharist to be the Lord's tradition , so he did also Rebaptization , in which the Romanists desert him : neither shew he held unwritten tradition a Rule of Faith ; yea , arguing against them that used Water without Wine , he proves the Lord's tradition out of Scripture , and urgeth it against them , and though his Reasons be frivolous , yet these expressions shew he adhered to the Scripture as his Rule . But if it be commanded by Christ , and the same be confirmed and delivered by his Apostle , that as oft as we drink in commemoration of the Lord we do the same thing , which the Lord also did , we are found that it is not observed of us which is commanded , unless we also do the same things which the Lord did , and mingling the Cup in like manner recede not from the divine magistery . Again , I marvel enough whence this hath been used , that against the Evangelical and Apostolical Discipline in some places Water is offered in the Lord's Cup , which alone cannot express Christ 's Blood . Whence may be perceived , that even in Cyprian's days corrupt usages came in by following other Traditions than those that are written . In the same Epistle Cyprian adds this remarkable speech , Wherefore if Christ alone be to be heard , we ought not to attend what any one before us hath thought is to be done , but what Christ who is before all ; neither ought we to follow the custome of a man out the truth of God , sith God speaks by the Prophet Esay , and saith , Without reason do they worship me , teaching Mandates and Doctrines of men .

Origen's words do not prove unwritten Traditions a Rule of Faith , when he saith , In our understanding Scripture we must not depart from the first Ecclesiastical tradition , Tract. 27. in cap. 23. St. Matthai ; nor Athanasius when he saith , This Doctrine we have demonstrated to have been delivered from hand to hand by fathers to sons , lib. 1. de Decret. Concil. Niceni ; sith that delivery was according to him by Scripture . Chrysostom on 2 Thess. 2. 15. saith , The Apostles did not deliver all things by writing , but many things without , and these are worthy of credit as the others , but doth not say , there remain still in the Church Traditions unwritten in matters of Faith that are different from the written , and that they are to be the Rule of Faith : yea , Homily in 2 Tim. 3. 15 , 16. he determines all is to be learned from Scripture ; and the same answer may serve for the words of Epiphanius , Haeresi 61. The words of Augustine lib. 5. de Bapt. cap. 23. are about a point in controversie between Cyprian and Pope Stephanus , in which both sides pretended Tradition , Cyprian for Rebaptization , and here Augustine pretends Tradition for the contrary ; by which and by Augustine's words lib. 1. de pecc . merit . & remiss . cap. 24. in which he makes the giving of the Sacrament of the Eucharist to Infants an ancient and Apostolical tradition , which Pope Innocentius Epist. 93. among Augustine's Epistles determined to be necessary , yet is now condemned in the Trent Council , it is apparent how unsafe it is to rely on a Popes determination , or Austin's opinion of Apostolical tradition , and that gross Errours have been received under the name of Apostolical traditions . As for the second Council of Nice , Act 7. Anno Dom. 781. it was a late and an impious Council condemned by the Synod of Francford and at Paris for their impious Doctrine of worshipping Images , and therefore we count its speech not worthy to be answered but with detestation . Nor is there any reason to be moved with the words of the Council at Sens in France , which was later and but Provincial .

SECT. VII .

Objections from Scripture for its sufficiency without unwritten Traditions are vindicated from H. T. his Answers .

H. T. proceeds thus . Objections solved . Object . You have made frustrate the Commandments of God for your Tradition , St. Matth. cap. 15. v. 4. Beware lest any man deceive you by vain fallacy according to the Traditions of men , Col. 2. Answ. These Texts are both against the vain Traditions of private men , not against Apostolical tradition .

I Reply , they are against the Popish unwritten Traditions , which are falsly called Apostolical , which are indeed the meer Inventions of men , either devised by superstitious Prelates , Priests , Monks or people , or upon uncertain report received by credulous people , as from the Apostles , as the Traditions about Easter , Lent Fast , Christ's age , and many more shew . And in such kinde of mens Inventions doth almost all the Popish Worship and Service consist , which causeth breaking the command of God to observe mens Traditions , as is manifest in Monkish Vows , whereby honouring of Parents is made void , and the keeping of the Cup from the people , whereby the express command of Christ is evacuated .

Object . There is no better way to decide controversies than by Scripture . Answ. Than by Scriptures expounded by the Church , and according to the Rule of Apostolical tradition , I grant : than by Scripture according to the dead Letter , or expounded by the private spirit , I deny . For so ( as Tertullian says ) there is no good got by disputing out of the Texts of Scripture , but either to make a man sick or mad . De praescript . cap. 19.

I reply , it is well this man will grant , There is no better way to decide controversies than by the Scriptures expounded by the Church , and according to the Rule of Apostolical tradition : then Knot 's Reasons for a living Judge against Dr. Potter come to nothing : we desire no other than to have our controversies decided this way , rejecting any one infallible Judge that shall take on him , as the Pope doth , to prescribe to the Church of God how they shall understand the Scripture . The Church of God , that is , the company of believers , who are the Church of God by Papists own definition , having the help of their godly and learned Guides may expound the Scriptures any where in the World , at Geneva , London , Dort , and other places as well , and better than the Pope and his Cardinals at Rome , or a Council of Canonists , titular Bishops , sworn vassals of the Pope , that never knew what it was to preach the Gospel , sophistical School-men at Trent . And for the Rule of Apostolical tradition , we like it well to expound Scripture by it , meaning that which is in the Books of Scripture , as Austin taught , lib. 1. de doctr. Christ . cap. 2. 35. 37. 40. lib. 2. cap. 8. 9. 11. lib. 3. cap. 2 3. 5. 10. 17. 18. 27. 28. lib 4. cap. 3. as the words are cited and vindicated from Hart's Replies by Dr. John Rainoll , Confer . with Hart. chap 2. divis . 2. Nor do I know any other Apostolical tradition , which is a Rule to expound Scriptures by for deciding controversies but their Epistles , and other Writings . If H. T. can shews me any such to expound them by , let him produce them , and I will embrace them . Sure I am Popes Expositions and Popish Councils , Canons , are so far from being Apostolical traditions , that they are rather the most ridiculous , profane , and blaphemous pervertings of Scripture that ever any sober man used , as may appear by their Canon Law . Yea , the very Council of Trent hath absurdly abused Scripture , as might be made manifest by going over their Canons , and the like may be said of the Roman Catechism .

What H. T. means by the dead Letter I understand not , unless he mean the literal sense , which sure Bellarmine and others allow for one sense , and that most genuine , and if it be not , why did the Trent Council decree the vulgar Translation not to be refused ? Why did Cajetan , Arias Montanus , the R●emists , and many more translate and expound according to the Letter ? Is the Scripture any more a dead Letter than the Popes Breves or Trent Canons ? Are they any more a living Judge than the Scripture ? Pope Pius the fourth ties Papists to expound the Scriptures according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers , which is , except in very few things , a meer nullity , and , if it were a reality , impossible to be done , yet however could it be done the exposition must be by a dead Letter in H. T. his sense as much as the Scripture . But how intolerable is it that such a Wretch as H. T. should thus blasphemously call that a dead Letter , which Stephen calls Living Oracles , Acts 7. 38. Paul the word of life , Phil. 2. 16. It is true for Popes , of whom some , if Alphonsus a Cast●● lib. 1. advers. Haeret. cap. 1. say true , were so unlearned as not to understand Grammar , it is desirable that the Scripture should not be expounded according to the Letter , sith they are unable to do it , that they may vent their illiterate fopperies under pretence of Apostolical tradition , of which sort many of their Decrees are in their Canon Law .

But me thinks all the learned Romanists ; even the Jesuits themselves , specially those that have written large Commentaries according to the literal sense , as Salmeron , Maldonat , Lorinus , Cornelius a Lapide , Tirinus , and many more should reject this foolery of H. T. concerning the expounding of Scripture , not according to the literal sense , which he calls the dead Letter , or else at once blot out all they have written for finding it as a meer encumbrance to the World . And the same may be said of not expounding by the private spirit . For why do these private men take so much pains to publish Commentaries ? Is not their spirit as much private , as Calvin's , Beza's , Luther's , and others , and these mens spirit as publick as theirs ? Let any man assign Reasons if he can why all the Commentaries of the Romanists should not be cashier'd under this pretence as well as the Protestants , who are as learned , industrious as they , and far more sincere and impartial . Why should not the Popes expositions be rejected as well as others ? Have they any more than a private spirit ? Do not their very Breves , and Monitories , and Decrees , shew that it is a private spirit they act and decide by ? Sure the Spirit of God would not dictate such vain things as they utter , and which sometimes they are fain to recall , lest their nakedness appear . Do not the Popes by their own confessions in correcting the vulgar Latin Translation , and other things they set forth , declare , that they use industry and the help of learned men ? If they have a publick spirit , why do not the Popes make us an Exposition of Scripture , which all must own ? Is it not because they are for the most part a race of ignorant and unlearned men , specially in the Scriptures , and , should they attempt such a thing , would make themselves appear ridiculous , and shew their asinine ears , though now they seem terrible , and to carry majesty with their Lions skin ? Is there any thing the Popes can do more necessary than this , that they may end all controversies , and guide all souls aright ? But the truth is , the Popes have been so unhappy in alleging Scripture in their Bulls , and Breves , and Monitories , in their dicisions of controversies , that no side will acquiesce in their determinations they are so vain or so partial , but as of old in the controversies between Dominicans and Franciscans about the Virgin Maries immaculate Conception , so of late between the Molinists and Jansenists about Gods Decrees , each party holds what they held , notwithstanding the Popes decision , which for the most part is so composed , that each party may think it makes for him , and he may loose neither . And about the Edition of the vulgar Translation in Latin of the Bible , how much have the two Popes Sixtus the fifth and Clemens the eighth discovered their unskilfulness , when after such profession of diligence and use of learned men as the Popes make , yet they have published their Editions contrary one to another ! The words of Tertullian are cap. 17. against those Hereticks Valentinus , Marcion , and such as agreed not with Christians in the Rule of Faith set down cap. 13. whom he denies to be Christians , and such he thinks it would be unfit to dispute with out of Scripture , but he doth not so judge concerning such as agree in the Rule of Faith , though some term them Hereticks . I may more truly say , there is no good got by Popes interpretations of holy Scripture but to make a man sick or mad : such Expositions as Alexander the third made of Psalm 91. 13 Thou shalt tread upon the Asp and Basili●k , when he trode on the Emperour Frederick's neck , or Boniface the eighth , when to prove himself above Emperours and Kings , he alleged Gen. 7. 16. God made two great Lights , that is , the Pope and the Sun , and the Emperour as the Moon , with many more of the like sort are no better than sick mens dreams or mad mens freaks .

It is added . Object . All Scripture divinely inspired is profitable for teaching , for arguing , for reproving , and for instructing in righteousness , that the man of God may be perfect , instructed to every good work , 1 Tim. 3. 16 , 17. therefore Traditions are not necessary , Answ. St. Paul speaks onely there of the old Scripture , which Timothy had known from his childhood ( when little of any of the new could be written ) as is plain by the precedent Verse , which we acknowledge to be profitable for all those uses , but not sufficient ; neither will any more follow out of that Text , if understood of the new Scriptures : so that your consequence is vain and of no force .

I reply , that which is profitable to teach , reprove , correct , instruct in righteousness , so as that the man of God may be entire , fitted , or instructed for every good work . Sure that is a sufficient Rule for Doctrine of Faith and good Works , and so to salvation . But such is the Scripture , as the Text tells us . Ergo. The Major is apparent , sith no more is required to a sufficient Rule of Doctrine , if there be , let it be shewed , that it may be known wherein this is defective . Sure that which is profitable for all uses to which Doctrine serves is a sufficient Doctrine . The Answer of H. T. here is so far from being a full Answer to the Objection ( as he vainly vaunts in the Title page of his Book ) that indeed it is a confirmation of the Objection . For if the old Scriptures were so profitable as to make the man of God a Teacher of the Church , entire , that they were able to make him wise to salvation , and furnish him with instruction to every good work , much more when the Books of the New Testament were added , of which one of the Gospels is by H. T. here pag. 104. said to have been written eight years after the Death of Christ , and doubtless Timothy knew it , and however he had the former Epistle to himself before the Epistle in which this passage is , which is ill printed , 1 Tim 3. 16 , 17. it being 2 Tim. 3. 15 , 16 , 17. and therefore the Scripture he had was a sufficient Rule to him a Bishop without Traditions , much more to others , and so Traditions unwritten are proved unnecessary and superfluous .

Again saith H. T. Object . If any one shall add to these God shall add to him the Plagues written in this Book , Apoc. 22. 18 , 19. Therefore it is not lawfull to add Traditions . Answ. It follows immediately , And if any one shall diminish from the words of this Prophecy God shall take away his Part out of the Book of Life , vers. 19. By which St. John evidently restrains that Text to the Book of his own Prophecies onely ; which is not the whole Rule of Faith ; and therefore by that you cannot exclude either the rest of the Scriptures or Apostolical Traditions from that Rule .

I reply , there is no reason why the same thing is not to be understood of the whole Canon , and each particular Book , sith there is the like Deut. 4. 2. Prov. 30. 6. Jer. 7. 31. 2 Thess. 2. 1 , 2. wherein are general Warnings of not receiving additions to the Scripture , yea , though the names of Moses and Paul were pretended , especially when the Traditions do adulterate the written Word as Popish traditions about Images , Fasting , single life , of the Clergy , Monastick Vows , and others of their Traditions do .

Yet he adds . Object . We may have a certain knowledge of all things necessary to salvation by the Bible or written Word onely . Answ. No , we cannot ; for there have been , are and will be infinite Disputes about that to the worlds end , as well what Books are Canonical as what the true sense and meaning is of every Verse and Chapter . Nor can we ever be infallibly assured of either , but by means of Apostolical tradition ; so that if this be interrupted , and failed for any one whole Age together ( as Protestants defend it for many ) the whole Bible , for ought we know , might in that space be changed and corrupted : nor can the contrary ever be evinced without new revelation from God : the dead Letter cannot speak for it self .

I reply , this profane Wretch it seems takes delight in this blasphemous Title which he gives to the holy Scripture often in reproach terming it the dead Letter , which he hath no Warrant to do . For though it is true that Ro. 7. 3 , 6. 2 Cor. 3. 6. the Law or old Covenant be termed the Letter , and is said to be dead and killing , yet this is not meant of the holy Scripture of the Law , because it is written , but because it was abrogated in the Gospel , as killing by its Sentence Sinners that continued not in all things written in it , Gal. 3. 10. And yet it can speak for it self as well , yea , incomparably better than any Writings of Popes , Councils , or Fathers from whence he hath his Traditions , which are as dead a Letter as the Scripture . And in this his expression there is so much the more iniquity , in that he prefers before the holy Scripture the uncertain reports of credulous superstitious men , and the Decrees of doating Popes , as more lively than the holy Scripture inspired of God And for this man who but the next Page before confessed , that the words of the Apostle , which tell us , that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the holy written Letters were able to make Timothy wise to salvation , 2 Tim. 3 15. to be meant of the old Scripture , and yet here to say , that we cannot have a certain knowledge of all things necessary to salvation by the Bible or written Word onely , what is it but flatly to gainsay the Apostle ? which is the more impiously and impudently done , in that he ascribes that to uncertain unwritten Tradition , which neither he nor any of his Fellows are able to shew where it is , or how it may be certainly known , which he denies to holy Scripture . As for his Reason it is frivolous . For a man may have a certain knowledge of that of which there will be infinite Disputes to the Worlds end , else hath he no certain knowledge of the Popes Supremacy , Infallibility , power in Temporals , superiority to a Council , of which yet there have been and are likely to be infinite Disputes . As there have been Disputes about the Canonical Books , so there have been about unwritten Traditions , as about the time of keeping Easter , Rebaptization , &c. Nor is it true that there are infinite Disputes about the true sense and meaning of every Verse and Chapter of the Bible . Sure among Christians there is no dispute of many fundamental truths , which every Christian acknowledgeth ; and yet if there were , it is no other thing than what is incident not onely to Philosophers Writings , but also to the Popes Decrees , about which there are infinite Disputes among the Canonists , to the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent , about which there were Disputes between Catharinus , Soto , Vega , Andradius , and others , to the Popes Breves , as to Pope Paul the fifth his Breves about the Oath of Allegeance , which were not onely disputed by King James and other Protestants , but also by Widrington and other Popish Priests , and to his Monitory and Interdict of Venice disputed by Frier Paul of Venice and others against Bellarmine , Baronius , and others . And if we can never be infallibly assured of either the Canonical Books or their sense but by Apostolical tradition unwritten , then can H. T. never be assured of the Popes Infallibility , or Supremacy but by it , and if so , then the Scripture is not his ground of it , and so he cannot demonstrate the truth of his Catholick Religion by Texts of holy Scripture , as he pretends in his Title-page , and therefore they are impertinently alleged by him , he should onely allege Tradition : which whether it be Fathers , Councils , or Popes sayings , it cannot assure better than the Scripture , they being more controverted than it , and therefore by his reasoning there can be no certainty in his Faith , and then he is mad if he suffer for it , as he is who suffers for any mans saying , who may be deceived . But we are assured both of the Books of Canonical Scripture , not onely by Apostolical tradition unwritten , but also by universal tradition , and the evidence of their authour by their matter , and of the meaning without Popish tradition , not onely by common helps of understanding and arts gotten by study , and the benefit of later and elder Expositours , but also by the Spirit of God assisting us when we seek it duly . And for the interruption of this Tradition the Protestants do not pretend it to have been one whole age or day , though it have been sometimes more full than at other times : and we have infallible assurance that the whole Bible hath not been changed or corrupted so but that by reason of the multitude of copies , and special providence of God , the chiefest points are free from change , and what is corrupted may be amended so far as is necessary for our salvation .

And considering Gods providence for the keeping of the Law , we assure our selves the Lord will preserve the Scripture , which me thinks to H. T. should give good assurance , sith pag. 119 he saith , The Church is by Christ the Depository of all divinely revealed veritie , necessary to be known by all , and hath the promise of divine assistance to all ; whereby and by other arguments it may be evinced without new revelation from God , that though H. T. his apostolical tradition unwritten should have failed for any one whole age together , yet the whole Bible should not in that space be changed or corrupted . And this is Reply enough to his venemous Answer to that Objection , which tends to depress the Scriptures authority ( which confessedly comes from God ) to exalt the authority of the worst of men , the Popes of Rome , as the stories of their Lives proves sufficiently

It is further urged . Object . Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his Disciples , which are not written in this Book , but these are written , that you may believe that Jesus is the Son of God , and that believing you may have Life in his Name , St. John 20. 30 , 31. Therefore St. John's Gospel contains all things necessary to salvation . Answ. I deny your Consequence ; for St. John omitted many things of great moment , as our Lord's Prayer and his last Supper , which are both necessary to be believed . And though he say , These things are written that we may believe and have life , he says not , that these things onely were written , or are sufficient for that purpose , which is the thing in question , so that he excludes not the rest of the Gospels nor Apostolical traditions . And it is no unusual thing in Scripture to ascribe the whole effect to that which is but the cause in part ; thus Christ promiseth beatitude to every single Christian virtue . St. Matthew 5. and St. Paul , Salvation to every one that shall call on the Name of our Lord , or confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus , and believe that God hath raised him from the dead , Rom. 10. 4 , 9 , 10. Yet more than this is requisite to salvation .

I reply . He that saith , These things are written that you may believe , and believing have life , doth inculcate that these are sufficient so far as writing or revealing is requisite to these ends , or else he should make a vain attempt . Frustra sit quod non assequitur finem , That is done in vain which attains not the end , and that is vainly done even deliberately , which is attempted to be done by that means which is foreknown to be insufficient . And therefore H. T. must either yield St. John's Gospel sufficient to beget saith and procure life , or else John to have been imprudent to intend and attempt it by writing it . And therefore he doth ill to deny the Consequence till he can avoid these absurdities . As for his Reason it is insufficient . For though the Lord's Prayer and the Lord's Supper omitted by John be necessary to be believed , yet they are not so necessary but that we may believe , that Jesus is the Son of God , and have life in his Name without them . And though he say not , that these things onely were written , yet he saith , These things onely which were written were for belief and life ; and therefore sufficient thereto . And though he excludes not the rest of the Gospels , nor Apostolical Traditions , yet he determines that they might believe and have life without them . As for the ascribing beatitude and salvation to each single Christian virtue , it is either because the beatitude is meant of a beatitude in part , or in some respect , as Matth. 5. 5. the reason doth import , or else because all other Christian virtues and duties necessary to salvation are connex or comprehended in that one which is named . And thus this Objection is vindicated .

The next is . Object . St. Luke tells us he hath written of all those things which Jesus did and taught , Act. 1. 1. Therefore all things necessary to salvation are contained in his Gospel . Answ. He writ of all the principal passages of his Life and Death , I grant , ( and that was the whole scope and intent of the Evangelists ) of all absolutely which he did and taught , I deny ; for in the same Chapter he tells us , that during the fourty days which Christ remained with them after his Resurrection , he often appeared to them , instructing them in the things concerning the Kingdom of God , very few of which instructions are mentioned by St. Luke , nor does he or any other of the Evangelists say any thing in their Gospels of the coming of the Holy Ghost , or of the things by him revealed to the Church , which were great and many according to that , I have many things to say to you , but you cannot now bear them , but when the Spirit of Truth cometh he shall teach you all Truth , and the things which are to come he shall shew you , St. John 16. 12 , 13 , 14. Add to this , that if all things which Jesus taught and did should be written , the whole World would not contain the Books , St. John cap. 21. vers. last . Therefore your Consequence is false , and that saying of St. Luke is to be limited .

I reply , I grant the saying of Luke is to be limited , and yet the consequence is not false . It is true , that St. Luke did not write all absolutely without limitation which Jesus did and taught , neither doth he say it , nor is the argument so framed as if he did ; but thus , Luke wrote of all the things which Jesus began to do and teach untill the day that he was taken up , and these were all things necessary to salvation , therefore Luke's Gospel contains all things necessary to salvation . The Romanists say , that things of meer belief necessary to salvation are contained in the holy-days , Creeds , and Service of their Church , and H. T. himself in the next leaf , pag. 118. says , The whole frame of necessary points of Christian Doctrine was in a manner made sensible and visible by external and uniform practise of the Church Now these are onely the principal passages of Christ's Life and Death , besides which many more practical points and all fundamental Gospel-truths are delivered therein , therefore even by their own grant all necessary points of Christian Doctrine are taught in the Gospel of Luke . It is certain their intent especially of John was to write of his divine nature , and such Sermons as tend to rectifie the Errours of the Pharisees and Sadduces , and predictions of his Death , Resurrection , and state of the Church after his Ascension . It is true , he did instruct them for fourty days after his Resurrection in the things concerning the Kingdom of God , but whether they are mentioned by Luke or not it is uncertain ; that they are delivered by Tradition oral , unwritten or necessary to salvation , so as that without an explicit knowledge of then it cannot be had , is not proved . The same may be said of the things mentioned John 16. 12 , 13 , 14. & 21. vers. last , and therefore the consequence is not infringed by these Exceptions . I add that H. T. says not true , that Luke says not any thing in his Gospel of the coming of the Holy Ghost . For Luke 2. 33. the Prediction of Christ , of sending the Promise of the Father , which Acts 2. 33. is expresly termed the Promise of the Holy Ghost , is set down .

SECT. VIII .

H. T. solves not the Objections from Reason for the Scriptures sufficiency without unwritten Traditions .

H. T. proceeds . Object . At least the whole Bible contains all things necessary to salvation , either for belief or practise for all sorts of men whatsoever , and that explicitly and plainly . Therefore the Bible is the Rule of Faith . Answ. I deny both Antecedent and Consequence . The three Creeds are not there , the four first Councils are not there ; there is nothing expresly prohibiting Polygamy or Rebaptization , nor expresly affirming three distinct Persons in one divine nature , or the Sons consubstantiality to the Father , or the Procession of the Holy Ghost from both , or that the Holy Ghost is God , or for the necessity of Infant baptism ; or for changing the Saturday into Sunday , &c. all which notwithstanding are necessary to be known by the whole Church , and to be believed by us in particular ( as Protestants will acknowledge ) if they be once sufficiently proposed to us by the Church . Nor is it sufficient we believe all the Bible , unless we believe it in the true sense , and be able to confute all Heresies out of it ( I speak of the whole Church ) which she can never do without the Rule of Apostolical Tradition in any of the Points forementioned .

I Reply , unless the man had a minde to plead for Arians , Photinians , Macedorians , and Socinians , I know not why he should so often make the Doctrines of three distinct Persons in one divine nature , the Sons consubstantiality to the Father , the Procession of the Holy Ghost from both , and his Godhead as Apostolical unwritten Tradition . Sure this is the way to bring into question these Doctrines , which if they be not in Scripture , will never be believed by intelligent Christians for the Pope and Council of Trent's sayings , whose proceedings never tended to clear truth , but to juggle with the World . This is one certain evidence that they never intended to clear truth , because they condemned the Doctrines of Protestants unheard , nor would ever permit them to come to plead for themselves in any impartial assembly , till which be done no man can construe the proceedings of a Council to be any other than practises to suppress truth . And for their juggling they were so notorious , that many Papists themselves have observed them , as may be seen in the History of the Council of Trent , especially about the divine right of Bishops , of the Laity having the Cup , Priests Marriages , in which Papists themselves found that they were meerly mocked by the Pope and Court of Rome . As for this mans denying the Antecedent , it seems to me to savour of such an imputation of a defect in God as tends to Atheism : For sure he is not to be termed a provident and just God , who declaring his minde in the Scripture , and promising life to them that observe his Word , and threatning Death and Damnation to them that do not believe and obey , yet doth not set down all necessary points therein to be believed and obeyed unto life . Yea , doth not H. T. by denying it contradict himself , who saith , pag. 105. In the Doctrines which Christ and his Apostles taught , and the Books which they wrote are contained all things that are of Faith . And for the Consequence if it be not good , The Bible contains all things necessary to salvation , either for belief or practise for all sorts of men whatsoever , and that explicitly and plainly ; therefore the Bible is the Rule of Faith , neither is his own second argument good for Tradition , pag. 105. In the Doctrines which Christ and his Apostles taught , and the Books which they wrote , are contained all things that are of Faith , therefore the infallible means of knowing them is the infallible and true Rule of Faith ; in both the Consequence being the same .

As for his Instances , I say , If the three Creeds and four first Councils be not in the Scripture they are not necessary to be known for the whole Church , and to be believed by us in particular , though they be sufficiently proposed to us by the Church , that is , in their non-sense gibberish the Pope or a general Council approved by him require us to receive them . Neither hath the Church ( as he terms it ) power to propose any thing as necessary to be known for the whole Church , and to be believed by us in particular , but what is contained in the Bible ; nor hath it such authority as that we are bound to believe them if it do propound them , though never so sufficiently , but are bound to reject them as contrary to the duty we ow to Christ of acknowledging him our onely Master ; much more reason have we to contend against them , when they are propounded by the Popes of Rome , who teach not the Doctrine of Christ , but cruelly and proudly tyrannize over the souls and bodies of the Saints in a most Antichristian manner , and impose on them as Apostolical traditions things contrary to Christ and his Apostles in the Bible . Nor is it true , that all Protestants will acknowledge all thsse Points he mentioneth as necessary to be known for the whole Church , and to be believed by us in particular . I grant it not sufficient for us to believe all the Bible , unless we believe it in the true sense , but aver we can believe it in the true sense , and be able to confute all Heresies out of it without the Rule of Apostolical tradition unwritten in any of those points in which the Errour is , as our Lord Christ was able by it to vanquish Satan , for which reason it is termed the Sword of the Spirit , Ephes. 6. 17. And for Traditions , or Popes Decrees , they are but a Leaden Sword without Fire and Faggot , yea , there is so much vanity in them as makes them ridiculous , and so unfit for refutation , and were it not for the horrid butchery and cruelty which Princes drunken with the Wine of the Cup of the Fornication of the Whore of Babylon , make of their best Subjects at the instigation of Popes and Popish Priests , nothing would appear more contemptible than their decisions .

Yet more . Object . Doubtless for speculative Points of Christian Doctrine Books are a safer and more infallible Way or Rule than oral Tradition . Answ. You are mistaken , Books are infinitely more liable to Casualties and Corruptions than Traditions , as well by reason of the variety of Languages , into which they are translated , as the diversity of Translations ; scarce any two Editions agreeing , but all pretending one to mend the other ; besides the multiplicity of Copies and Copists with the Equivocation and uncertainty of dead and written words if captiously wrested or literally insisted on . Who can prove any one Copy of the Bible to be infallible or uncorrupted ( those that were written by the Apostles own hands we have not ) or who can convince that any one Text of the Bible can have no other sense and meaning than what is convenient for his purpose , insisting onely on the dead Letter ? All which dangers , and difficulties are avoided by relying on Apostolical tradition , which bindes men under pain of Damnation , to deliver nothing for Faith , but what they have received as such by hand to hand from Age to Age , and in the same sense in which they have received it . Think me not foolish ( says St. Augustin ) for using these terms ; for I have so learned these things by Tradition , neither dare I deliver them to thee any other way than as I have received them , Lib. de utilit . cred . cap. 3.

I reply , A more impudently and palpably false Discourse than this is a man shall seldom meet with , it being contrary to all experience and use among men , and condemns all the customes of the most civil people of folly in Writing and Printing their Statutes , Records , Deeds , Wills , Histories , that they may be more certain and safely preserved , as knowing , that oral Traditions are apt to be lost , and corrupted , persons understandings , memories , reports , lives , and all their affairs being mutable and liable to innumerable casualties . Yea , hereby God himself is condemned of imprudence , in causing Moses and all the sacred Writers to write Books , and our Lord Christ in giving John express charge to write , Revel. 1. 19. commending the Scripture , Rom. 15. 4. 2 Tim. 3. 15 , 16 , 17. as inspired of God , directing to it , John 5. 39. praising the searching of it , Acts 17. 11. making it a persons excellency to be mighty in it , Acts 18. 24. usefull to convince in the greatest point of Faith , vers. 28. Wit not Printing a great Benefit to the World ? Was not the finding of the Book of the Law , 2 Chron. 34 15. the reading of it by Ezra , Nehem. 8. the having of ready Scribes counted a happiness to the Jews ? Do not men more credit eys than ears ? Do not men complain of the Darkness of Times for want of Books ? Are not the ninth and tenth ages since Christ counted unhappy for want of learned Writers ? Was not this the great unhappiness that came into the West by the Inundations of barbarous Nations in that they spoiled Libraries ? Is it not a thing for which Ptolomaeus Philadelphus was renowned , that he stored the Library at Alexandria in Egypt with Books ? do not we count them great Benefactours who build and preserve Libraries ? Are not therefore Students encouraged , and they that search Libraries the men that discover truth to the World ? Were the things done before the Flood or since better preserved by oral Tradition than by Moses Writing ? Were the things done before the Wars of Troy better preserved thereby than these Wars by Homer's Poems ? Or the British Antiquities by the Songs of Bardes than by Julius Caesar's Commentaries , Tacitus , and other Historians Writings ? How quickly are men apt to mistake and misreport sayings appears by the mistake of Christ's speeches , John 2. 19. Matth. 26. 62. John 21 23. That which Eusebius saith of Papias , lib. 3. Eccles. hist. cap. 35. of his delivering divers fabulous things received by oral Tradition through his simplicity , Irenaeus of the Elders of Afia lib. 2. advers. Haeret. cap. 39. and innumerable other instances prove , there is nothing more uncertain than oral Tradition from hand to hand . A man may easily perceive this man is resolved to outface plain truth , who is not ashamed thus to aver that it is a mistake to say that Books are a more safe and infallible way or Rule than oral Tradition , when his own printing his Books proves the contrary : For why did he write but for more sure conveying and preser●ing of his minde ? Yea , his own Reason is truly retorted on himself . Oral Reports are infinitely more liable to casualties and corruptions than Books , as well by reason of the variety of Languages in which Reports are uttered , as the diversity of Interpreters , scarce any two Interpreters agreeing , but all pretending one to mend the others , besides the multiplicity of expressions and relatours one not agreeing with the other , as Mark 14 56 , 59. with the equivocations and uncertainties or Witnesses words , if captiously wrested or literally insisted on . Who can prove any one oral Tradition , which is not universal and written also to be infallible or uncorrupted ( those that were delivered by the Apostles own tongues we have not ) or who can convince that any one oral Tradition can have no other sense or meaning than what is convenient for his purpose insisting onely on the sound of a reporter ? All which dangers and difficulties are avoided as much as is necessary by relying on the written Word of the Bible , which under pain of Damnation bindes men to deliver nothing for Faith , but what they have received as such from Christ and his Apostles in their Writings by hand to hand from age to age , and in the same sense in which they have received it . It is true , Books are subject to casualties and corruptions , yet not to so many as oral Tradition , and the casualties are better prevented by Writing , which remains the same , than by Reports which vary . Fama tam ficti pravique tenax quam nuncia veri . And as the Enemies malice hath been great in seeking to deprive the World of Bibles , so the providence of God hath been wonderfull in preserving them and their genuine writing and meaning even by the dispersing of Copies , that what is amiss in one may be mended in another , by ordering variety of Translations to the same end , persecutions that they should not be in all places at once , stirring up others to make Tractates , and Commentaries on them , all Christians ( till the late Faction at Trent , and the late Papal tyranny denied the liberty of translating and reading of the Bible in the vulgar Tongue without leave , and began to punish in their Inquisition the having them ) reverencing and reading the holy Scripture , however the Decree of Councils and Popes were neglected , yea Traditours of the Bible to be burnt were most infamous .

As for the words of Austin lib. de util. cred . cap. 3. they are falsly cited and meerly impertinent to H. T 's . purpose . Having said , The Old Testament is delivered , that is , expounded four ways according to the History , Aetiology , Analogy , Allegory ; he then adds , Think me not a Fool , using Greek names . First , because I have so received , neither dare I intimate to thee otherwise than I have received : which is nothing at all about Apostolical traditions unwritten as the Rule of Faith besides the Scripture , but of certain terms used by Expositours of Scripture . But that which a little after he adds is justly charged on the Romanists , and among them on H. T. Nothing seems to me to be more impudently said by them ( the Manichees ) or that I may speak more mildely , more carelesly , and weakly , than that the divine Scriptures are corrupted , when they cannot convince it by any Copies extant in so fresh a memory .

But H. T. in his sottish vein adds , As to your difficulty of speculative Points , I answer , that the whole frame of necessary Points of Christian Doctrine was in a manner made sensible and visible by the external and uniform practise of the Church . The incarnation and all the Mysteries thereof by the holy Images of Christ erected in all sacred places , the Passion by the sign of the Cross used in the Sacraments , and set up in Churches . The Death of Christ by the unbloody Sacrifice of the Mass , which is a lively Commemoration of it . The Trinity and Unity by doing all thing in the name of the Father , and of the Son , and of the Holy Ghost , &c. now who can doubt but that oral Tradition thus seconded by the outward and uniform practise of the whole World is a much safer , and more infallible Rule for conserving revealed verities than Books or dead Letters , which cannot explicate themselves .

I reply , were not this man bewitched , or as the Prophet speaks , Isai 44. 20. Fed on Ashes , having a deceived heart that turneth him aside , so as that he cannot say , Is there not a Lie in my right hand ? he would never have preferred oral Tradition seconded by erecting and use of Images made by idolatrous Sots , and termed Teachers of Lies by the Prophet Hab , 2. 18. as a safer and more infallible Rule of Faith than the holy Scriptures inspired by God , and his great gift to men , though impiously termed by this Wretch dead Letters . ' But it is the just judgement of God that they that make Images and adore them should be like them . Psalm 115. 8. that is , as blockish as the Images are . How uncertain oral Tradition is hath been shewed , and how impossible it is to be a true and right Rule since the departure of those who could preach infallibly . That there is any such uniform and outward practise of the Roman Church , which can second oral Tradition , aud make any Point of Christian Doctrine , much less the whole frame of necessary Points of Christian Doctrine in a manner visible and sensible is a Lie with a witness . Christian Doctrine doth not consist in the History of the things sensible to the eye , but in the opening of the true causes , and ends , and uses of things done , which can onely be apprehended by the understanding , and is brought to it by hearing and reading , whence Faith is said to come by hearing , and hearing by the Word of God , Rom. 10. 14 , 15 , 17. It is most false , that the erecting of Images of Christ and of the Cross hath been the uniform practise of the Church . It is certain by many Writers that Christians had no Images in their Churches for many hundred years , yea , it is certain that the best Emperours and Bishops of the East and West were against the having them in Churches , however Gregory the first Bishop of Rome by his superstitious opposing Serenus his taking them down counting them Lay-men's Books , opened a Gap to that Deluge of Ignorance and Idolatry , which hath since spread over the Western Churches , which have gone a whoring after them . This Authour calls them holy Image which the Scripture counts abominable , as defiling places , and making them not sacred but polluted . He saith , The Incarnation and all the Mysteries thereof are made sensible by the Images of Christ erected in all sacred places , the passion by the sign of the Cross used in Sacraments , and set up in Churches . But what a notorious falshood is this ? One Mystery sure is the Holy Ghost's overshadowing the Virgin Mary , another the Union of the two Natures ? Can any Image of Christ teach these ? What can the sign of the Cross teach , but that there was such a kinde of punishment to put men to Death ? If Images did teach these Mysteries , then Image-makers would be Stewards of the Mysteries of God , and Successours of the Apostles , and Michael Angelo and such like Painters and Carvers more truly Peter's Successours and Bishops of Rome than Popes , as doing more to teach the Mysteries of God than Popes do . The unbloody Sacrifice of the Mass is a meer figment of a thing present , which all the sense of all the men in the World contradicts , full of apish gestures and toyish fashions , fitter for a Stage-play than a spiritual Service of the Christian Church , and being in a Tongue not commonly understood , without teaching , informs not the Hearers or Seers in the Mystery of the Death of Christ , nor makes any lively Commemoration of his Passion , but pleaseth superstitious and womanish or childish spirits , which are taken with such shews ; the Sacrament opens no Mystery thereof without the Word written . Accedat Verbum ad Elementum & fit Sacramentum , was the old resolution , Put the Word to the Element then it is made a Sacrament . Nor is it true , that the practice hath been uniform therein , the variety of Missals , and the corruptions purged out of the Roman Missal , as is confessed in Pope Pius the fifth his Bull according to the Decree of the Trent Council prove the contrary . The Trinity is known by the institution and practise of Baptism , but that is learned out of the written Word , not oral Tradition . None of these practises do at all open the Mystery of the Gospel , as experience shews , it being manifest by conference that none of the People in Italy and elsewhere , who go to Mass , and look on Pictures , and have no other teaching , do understand any thing of the Mystery of the Gospel , the end , reason , use of Christ's Birth , or Death , but content themselves with a meer theatrical shew without any true understanding of the grace of God , inward feeling or effectual change in their souls thereupon . Perhaps it is better with Papists in England , where their Superstitions are not altogether so gross , and their understanding bettered by neighbourhood and converse with Protestants . But that Images should conserve revealed verities , or oral Tradition seconded with Images more explicate them than Books , which this man again impiously terms dead Letters , unless the Images be animated , as that was that it's said told Thomas Aquinas , Thou hast written well of me , which was fit to be silenced by telling it , that it had no allowance to speak in the Church , is to me unintelligible . And if these be such a safe and infallible Rule or means to teach and conserve the whole frame of Christian Doctrine , then sure Christ did inconsiderately appoint Writers and Preachers to teach and guide the Church , till we all meet in the unity of the Faith , Ephes. 4. 11 , 12 , 13. he should rather for the times after the Apostles have appointed , Massing Priests and Painters to have taught the People : nor were the Council of Trent and some of the Popes so advised , as they might have been , in appointing the unnecessary businesses of framing a Catechism , and amending the vulgar Latin Edition of the Bible , and much more foolish have been all the learned Papists , who have in late years and formerly made large Commentaries and other Treatises to conserve revealed verities , there being a more compendious way by oral Traditions with the use of Images , and Masses , and some other things , if this impudent Scribler say true .

Yet H. T. continues thus . Object . If all things necessary to salvation be not contained in the whole Bible , now shall a man ever come to know what is necessary to be known , either by the whole Church in general , or himself in particular ? Answ. For the whole Church in general , she is obliged to know all divinely revealed verities , which are necessary to the salvation of all mankinde , she being made by Christ the Depository of all , and having the Promise of divine assistance to all . And for each particular man so much onely it necessary to be believed , as is sufficiently proposed to him by the Church and her Ministers for the Word of God , or would at the least be so proposed , if he himself were not in fault ; all which we may easily come to know by means of Apostolical tradition , without which we can have no infallible assurance of any Point of Christian Doctrine .

I reply , neither the Church nor her Ministers can sufficiently propose to any man for the Word of God any other than the Scripture , by which we may have infallible assurance of any Point of Christian Doctrine without oral Tradition unwritten . And to say that the whole Church in general , and not each man in particular , is obliged to know all divinely revealed verities which are necessary to the salvation of all mankinde , is to speak contradictions .

Yet once more saith H. T. Object . You dance in a vicious Circle , proving the Scripture and the Churches infallibility by Apostolical tradition , and tradition by the Scripture , and the Churches infallibility . Answ. No , we go on by a right Rule towards Heaven . We prove indeed the Churches infallibility and the credibility of the Scriptures by Apostolical tradition , but that is evident of it self , and admits no other proof . When we bring Scripture for either we use it onely as a secondary testimony or argument ad hominem .

I reply , if this be so , then doth H T. in his Title-page pretend demonstration of his falsly called Catholick Religion by Tents of holy Scripture in the first place onely as a secondary testimony or argument ad hominem , but it is oral Apostolical tradition which he principally relies on for his demonstration , as being evident of it self , and admits no other proof ; which oral Apostolical Tradition being no other than what Popes and Councils approved by him have approved , it follows , that what Papists call Catholick Religion is not what the Scriptures teach , but what Popes and their Councils define , into which their Faith is ultimately resolved . No marvel then they decline Scripture , or if they use it do it onely because of Protestants importunity , not because they think it is to be rested on , and if so , sure H. T. plays the Hypocrite in pretending to demonstrate his Religion out of Texts of holy Scripture . If other Papists would stick to this which H. T. here saith , we should take it as a thing confessed , that Popery is not Scripture doctrine , but onely unwritten Tradition , and to have for its bottom foundation the Popes determination , and so to be imbraced upon his credit ; which sure can beget no other than a humane faith , and in fine doth make the Pope Lord of their Faith , which is all one as to make him their Christ , and that is to make him an Antichrist . Therefore I conceive other Romanists will disown this resolution of H. T. and seek other ways to get out of this Circle , and herein they go divers ways . Dr. Holden an English man and Doctor of Paris , in his Book of the Analysis of divine Faith , chap. 9. rejects the common way , and sticks to that of universal Tradition , which by natural reason is evident and firm : But when he hath urged this as far as he can , this must be the evidence , that what all say and was so manifestly know by so many Miracles as Christ and his Apostles wrought must be infallibly true . But the being of Christ the Mossiah , and his Doctrine from God , as the holy Scriptures declare , is avouched by all the Church and manifestly known by Miracles , therefore it must be true : which is no other than Chillingworth's universal Tradition , confirming the truth of the Scriptures , and deriving our Faith from thence , which if Papists do relinquish and adhere to the Popes resolutions , whether they be with Scripture or without , they do expresly declare themselves Papists or Disciples of the Pope , not Christians , that is , Disciples of Christ . I conclude therefore that H. T. and such as hold with him according to the Principle he here sets down are not Believers in Christ , whose Doctrine is delivered in the Scripture , but in men whether Popes , or Councils , or the universal Church , or any other who delivers to him that oral Tradition , which is his Rule , as being evident of it self , and admits no other proof , though I have shewed it to be uncertain , yea , not so much as probable . I go on to the next Article .

ARTIC. IX . Schism and Heresie are ill charged on Protestants .

Protestants in not holding Communion with the Roman Church , as now it is , in their Worship , in not subjecting themselves to the Pope as their visible Head , in denying the new Articles of the Tridentin Council and Pope Pius the fourth his Bull , are neither guilty of Schism nor Heresie . But Papists by rejecting them for this cause , and seeking to impose on them this Subjection are truly Schismaticks , and in holding the Articles which now they do are Hereticks .

SECT. I

H. T. his definitions of Heresie and Schism are not right .

H. T. intitles his ninth Article of Schism and Heresie , and begins thus . Nothing intrenching more on the Rule of Faith or the Authority of the Church than Schism or Heresie : we shall here briefly shew what they are , and who are justly chargeable therewith . Our Tenet is , that not onely Heresie ( which is a wilfull separation from the Doctrine of the Catholick Church ) but also Schism ( which is a separation from her government ) is damnable and sacrilegious , and that most Sectaries are guilty of both .

Answ. I Think Infidelity doth more intrench on the Rule of Faith than Heresie , and Heresie may be where there is no intrenching on the Authority of the Church in this Authour 's own sense , as when a man living in communion with the Roman Church , and owning the Pope , or being the Pope himself is an Arian , as Pope Liberius , or a Monothelite as Pope Honorius . And for his definition of Heresie , it is in mine apprehension too obscure and imperfect . For it neither shews what is the Catholick Church , the separation from whose Doctrine makes Heresie , nor what Doctrines of it the separation from which makes Heresie , nor what separation in heart or profession , or other act , nor when it is wilfull when not , nor how it may be known to be wilfull . Nor doth this definition agree with their own Tenets , who acquit many from Heresie , who wilfully separate from the Doctrine of the Catholick Church , as they define it , to wit , that which is defined by a general Council approved by a Pope . As for instance , The Popish French Church is acquitted from Heresie , yet they hold a Council to be above the Pope , contrary to the last Lateran Council approved by Pope Leo the tenth . Nor is this definition at all proved by this Authour , but taken as granted , though it may be justly questioned . And for the use of the terms [ Heresie ] and [ Hereticks ] in the Ancients it is certain , that many are put in the Catalogue of Hereticks by Philastrius , Epiphanius , Augustin , and also by other Writers elder and later , and those opinions termed Heresies , which were not so . The like faults are in the definition of Schism , in not setting down which is the Catholick Church , what is her government , what separation of heart , or outward profession , or other act it is which makes Schism . Nor is this a definition , which doth agree with their own grants ; For the Councils that deposed Popes separated from the government of the Pope , and the French in their pragmatick Sanction , and the Venetians that refused to obey Pope Paul the fifth his Monitory , deny themselves to be Schismaticks . Nor is it shewed how either is damnable or sacrilegious , nor how Protestants are Sectaries , or which Sectaries are guilty of both or either . So that in this Tenet there is nothing but ambiguity and imperfection : yet sith by what follows we may ghess his meaning : let 's view his dispute .

SECT. II.

Protestants are not proved to be Sectaries by the first beginning of Reformation .

The Argument , saith H. T. All such as are wilfully divided both from the Doctrine and Discipline of the Catholick Church are Schismaticks and Hereticks , and consequently in a damnable state . But most Protestants and other Sectaries are wilfully divided both from the Doctrine and Discipline of the Catholick Church . Therefore they are Schismaticks and Hereticks , and consequently in a damnable state . The Major is manifest out of the very notion and definition of Schism and Heresie : The sequel of it proved thus by Scriture , Titus 3. 10. 2 Peter 2. 1. Jude 13. Rom. 16. 17. Matth. 18. 7 , 17 , 18. 2 Thess. 3. 14.

Answ. 1. BY denying his Definition to be good , and that any of the Texts prove it . 2. By granting the Sequel of them that are truly termed Schismaticks and Hereticks , but not of such as he calls such , to wit , that do wilfully divide from the Doctrine and Discipline of the now Roman Church falsly by him called Catholick . There is no need of examining each Text till they are shewed to prove what is denied .

The Minor , saith he , is proved , because Luther and his fellow Protestants divided themselves from the Communion of all Churches , therefore from the Communion of the Catholick Church , and that as well in Points of Doctrine as matters of Government , as plainly appears by all we have said , and is yet confirmed , because when they began their Separation Luther in Germany , Tyndal in England , &c. the Catholick Church was in most quiet possession of her Tenets , in perfect peace and unity , her Doctrine and Government being the same they had been , not onely to the time of Gregory the Great ( as Protestants confess ) but to the very time of the Apostles , as is manifest both by the publick Liturgies , Councils , and Records of all Ages , in which no one Doctrine of Faith , or substantial Point of Discipline , then professed by the Roman Catholick Church , and opposed by Protestants , had ever been censured and condemned as heretical or schismatical , but all for the most part actually defined and established against ancient Hereticks , as you have seen in the Councils .

Answ. 1. The Minor speaks of most Protestants , but mentions none but Luther and his fellow Protestants , and Tyndal in England : now it is no good proof against us , that we are Schismaticks , because Luther and his fellow Protestants were so , and Tyndal began Separation in England . It is told them by C●illingworth c. 5. p 1. against Knot , that there may be an unjust Separation begun , and so a Schism in the Leaders , and yet no Schism in the Followers in after Ages ; as in a Common-wealth it may be a Sedition and Rebellion to set up another Government and Governour in the first Authours , and yet none in the Posterity to continue them , but rather their duty to maintain them in order to the peace and liberty which was unjustly obtained at first . 2. It is denied that Luther or Tyndal divided themselves wilfully , that is , without necessity . It is known in the History of Sleidan , and others , that Luther at first spake honourably of the Pope , and was willing to have continued in communion with the Roman Church till Leo the tenth did by his Bull condemn his Doctrine , afore he had heard him , and he saw plainly ( as the World found by experience ) that the Popes and Court of Rome did never by good proofs out of Scripture go about to refute them , but by Excommunications , Fire , and War , ( to which Emperours and Kings were stirred up by them ) endeavour to root them out . And for Tyndal it is manifest by the Book of Acts and Monuments of the Church written by Mr. Fox in the Reign of Henry the eighth , that Tyndal was persecuted by the Popish Bishops , and his body burnt in Brabant . Now sure were the Protestants never so erroneous , yet the Law of Nature ties them to run away from such cruel Wolves , as in stead of teaching them with love , endeavour to destroy them with cruelty . 3. It is most false , that Luther and his Fellows divided themselvs from the communion of all Churches : It is certain , that they actually joyned with the remainder of the Hussites in Bohomia , and the Waldenses about the Alpes , who were true Churches of Christ , however the Romanists term them : nor did they ever renounce communion with the Greek . Eastern or Southern Churches , though by reason of distance , and the Power they were under , they could not have actual communion with them . And by their desire of a free Council in Germany not called by the Pope , but the Emperour and Christian Princes , nor of Bishops sworn to the Pope , but of men that were equal Judges by whom their Doctrine might be examined , and by their often Colloquies for Reconciliation they plainly shewed , that they tried all means they could with a good conscience to have prevented the breach between them , and the Popish party , who were certainly the cause of the Schism , and truly the Schismaticks ( as may be gathered from their own stories , such as Thuanus , Frier Paul's History of the Trent Council . and others , who relate the proceedings of those times ) and not the Protestants . 4. It is most false , that they separated from the Catholick Church in point of Doctrine . It is most certain , that the party from whom the Protestants separated had relinquished the Catholick Doctrine of the Scripture , and Primitive times for five hundred years at least , and had brought in a new upstart Doctrine of Invocation of Saints , worshiping Images , Transubstantiation , half-communion as sufficient , denial of Priest's Marriage , Popes universal Monarchy , Purgatory-fire , Indulgences , Sacrifice of the Mass , Justification by Works , and many more , which were unknown to the first Christians , nor hath the contrary appeared by any thing H. T. hath said before , as the Reader of this Answer may perceive . 5. It is most false , that they separated from the Catholick Church in the point of her Government . The Government of the whole Church by one universal Bishop was never the Government of the Catholick Church . It is manifest by the first general Councils that the Pope of Rome was not acknowledged superiour to other Patriarchs , and the Greek Churches have always resisted his claim of Supremacy , and many , as Nilus Arch-bishop of Thessalonica , Barliam and others have written against it as an unjust claim . 6. It is false , that the Roman Church ( falsly by H. T. called Catholick ) was in most quiet possession of her Tenets , when Luther began his Separation in Germany , Tyndal in England . It is manifest by Cochlaeus his History of the Hussites , that there were a remnant of them in Bohemia , by Thuanus and Mr. Morland that there was a remnant of the Waldenses in the Valleys of the Alpes , by Mr. Fox that there was a remnant of Lollards or Wictevists in England , who did reject the Roman Doctrine then and since taught , in many , if not all the points , in which Protestants do now oppose it . 7. It is false , that the Roman Church was in perfect peace and unity when Luther and Tyndal began their Separation . For the controversies about the Virgin Marie's immaculate Conception , about the Popes Supremacy above a Council , and sundry other were rather suppressed than composed , as the event shewed , no party relinquishing the holding their Tenets to this day , but each when occasion is offered contending for their way . 8. It is false , that the Doctrines and Government of the Roman Church had been the same from that time Luther and Tyndal began their Separation to the time of Gregory the Great , or that Protestants do confess it . It is most certain to the contrary , that since Gregory the Great his time the Popes universal Episcopacy , the Worship of Images , Transubstantiation , half-Communion in the Eucharist , and many other points were brought into the Roman Church , as Bishop Morton in his Appeal from Brereley 's Apology to King James hath proved . 9 It is also most false , that their Doctrine and Government were the same 〈◊〉 now they are to the times of the Apostles . The contrary is proved out of the Epistle to the Romans , by Bishop Robert Abbot against D●ctor Bishop , and by Bishop Jewel against Harding out of the Fathers . 10. It is false which H. T. saith , It is manifest both by the publick Liturgies , Councils , and Records of all Ages , no one Doctrine of Faith , or substantial Point of Doctrine professed then when Luther and Tyndal began their Separation by the Roman Church , and opposed by Protestants had ever been censured and condemned as heretical or schismatical , but all for the most part actually defined and established against ancient Hereticks , as may be seen in the Councils . The contrary is most manifest , that the Council of Chalcedon and of Carthage , in which Augustine was present , opposed the Popes Supremacy as schismatical , that the Synod of Frankford opposed the worshiping of Images as heretical , besides many other , as hath been shewed in answer to what H. T. here allegeth .

SECT. III.

The Sayings of Fathers prove not Protestants Hereticks or Schismaticks .

BUt H. T. saith , Fathers for this Point , though there is not one of the Fathers Sayings which he brings that speaks at all to that point of the Protestants being guilty of Schism or Heresie , or that the Church of Rome is the Catholick Church , or that her Doctrine and Government have been the same in all Ages , or that in no case there may be dividing from it , or teaching contrary to it without Heresie or Schism , yea , it is certain , that Irenaeus , Cyprian , and Austin , thought the clean contrary , Irenaeus opposing Pope Victor his Excommunication of the Eastern Bishops for not holding Easter with him , Cyprian opposing Pope Stephanus about Rebaptization , Augustine opposing Popes Boniface , Zozimus , and Celestine , about the Appeal of Apiarius . But let 's view their Sayings .

The first is thus cited by H. T. In the second Age Irenaeus ; God will judge those who make the Schisms in the Church , ambitious men , who have not the honour of God before their eys , but rather embracing their own interests than the unity of the Church , for small and light causes divide the great and glorious body of Christ , &c. for in the end they cannot make any Reformation so important as the evil of Schism is prejudicious , lib. 4. cap. 62. It is likely H. T. ignorantly put [ prejudicious ] for [ pernicious ] or his Authour whence he had it , for it is in Irenaeus , Quanta est Schismatis pernicies . But it appears , 1. That he hath either not read the place , or not considered it , because he puts in [ God will judge ] whereas it is manifest out of the words following [ But he will judge also all those who are out of the truth , that is , without the Church , but he himself is judged of no man ] and from chap. 53. and following to be meant of every spiritual Disciple of Christ that had received the Spirit of God , and the Apostolical Doctrine , chap. 52. alluding to Paul's words , 1 Cor. 2. 15. and he alters [ the love of God ] into [ the honour of God before their eys . ] 2. That the place makes nothing against Protestants ; for it condemns onely them that make Schisms for small and light causes , which was most true of Victor then Bishop of Rome , in excommunicating the Asian Bishops for not keeping Easter as he did , reprehended by Irenaeus in his Epistle recited by Eusebius , hist. 1. lib. 5. cap. 24. but is nothing against Protestants , who neither make nor continue Schisms , and that Separation which they make , they do it for very great causes . And he saith , No Reformation can be made so important by them who divide upon light causes , as is the mischief of the Schism they make , but this hinders not but that the Protestants Reformation , or correption ( which is Irenaeus his word ) is so necessary , that it countervails the evil of the Schism consequent . I add , the words of Irenaeus [ the spiritual man who is a Disciple of Christ will judge all them who are out of the truth ] do justifie the Protestants in judging the Popes and Popish Doctors , and Churches as Schismaticks and Hereticks , who by their Doctrine of Popes Supremacy , Invocation of Saints , humane Satisfactions , inherent Justice justifying , Merit of Condignity , have departed from the Apostolical Faith , and by their cruel tyranny and hatred of Reformation have the most horrible and pernicious Schism that ever was in the Church of God , and the Protestants are warranted thus to judge by the holy Scripture .

The words of Cyprian de unit . Eccles . in the third Age against the Novatians of the inexpiableness of their crime of Schism , that it could not be purged by suffering for Christ , nor they be Martyrs , though they died for the Confession of his Name , is too heavy a censure , yet if it were true is nothing against Protestants , who are not guilty of that Schism .

The words of Chrysostom hom. 11. in Ephes. shew how grievous an evil Schism is , but prove not , that they are all Schismaticks , that separate from the Roman Bishop and Church , nor that the Protestants are guilty thereof , or the Romanists free .

The words of Optatus lib. 2. are not to any of the points now in controversie except he mean by the unity of the Episcopal Chair holding communion with the Bishop of Rome , and assert that to be the one Episcopal Chair to which all other are to be subject : which if so meant , the words are not true ; if meant as Cyprian meant , that there is one Bishoprick of which each Bishop holds a part intirely , in respect of unity of Doctrine , the speech is good , but not against Protestants , who hold the unity of that Episcopal Chair .

The words of Augustine lib. 4. de Symb. fidei ad Catech. cap. 10. if they were true , yet are they nothing to the purpose , unless it were said , that by the holy Church he meant the Church of Rome , or that he who is found out of the Church of Rome is a stranger from the number of sons , that he hath not God for his Father , nor will have the Church for his Mother , none of which are said by him . It is true , there are these words in Austin's second Exposition on Psalm 21. with us 22. ver. 18. He who hath charity is secure or safe . No man moveth it out of the Catholick Church . But these words are not against Protestants , but against Papists , who move it out of the Catholick Church , and confine it to the Roman , and most uncharitably damn them , who are not of their party , therein following the Donatists , whom Austin there condemns , who confined the Church to the part of Donatus in Africa . And there is another passage in the same Exposition which doth justifie the Protestants and condemn the Papists in the main point of controversie between us , what shall determine controversies between us , they say the Church , when the great controvesie is which is the Church , we say the Scripture , and so doth Augustine in these words . The Testament of our Father ( that is , the Scriptures , as the words a little before shew ) is come out of any hole , I know not what Thieves would take it away , I know not what Persecutours would burn it . Whencesoever it is brought let it be read . Why strivest thou ? We are brethren , why do we strive ? The Father died not without a Will , he made his Will and so died , he is dead and risen again . So long there is contention about the Inheritance of the Dead untill the Will be publickly produced , and when the Will is brought into the publick all are silent , that the Tables may be opened and recited . The Judge hears within , the Advocates are silent , the Criers make silence , all the People is suspended , that the words of the Dead not perceiving it in the Tomb may be read . He lies without sense in the Monument , and his words are in force , Christ sits in Heaven , and is his Testament contradicted ? Open , let us read , we are Brethren , why do we contend ? Let our minde be pacified , our Father hath not left us without a Will. He that made the Will lives for ever , hears our voices , acknowledgeth his own . Let us read , why do we contend ? Where the Inheritance it self is found , let us hold it . These words were spoken by Austin against Donatists , and may rightly be applied to Papists , who are the true canse of all the horrible Schisms and bloodsheds among Christians , because they will not try who hath the Inheritance of the Church by the Scriptures , which are God's Will , but usurp the name of the Catholick Church , as the Donatists did , and under that pretence trample under foot all their Christian Brethren in the World , who have as great and better Portion in the Inheritance of God their Father and of the Church than themselves .

The words of Augustine in his Sermon super gestis Emeriti , are not , that out of the Church an Heretick may have all things but Salvation . For he saith , He may have the Faith , which he would not say of the Heretick , but he speaks it of the Donatists , which whether it be true or no is nothing to Protestants , who are and may be in the true Church of Christ , and have salvation , though they be not in the Roman Church .

The words of Augustine Epist. 48. concerning the Donatists , that they were with other Christians in Baptism , in the Creed , and in the other Sacraments of the Lord , but in the spirit of unity , in the bond of peace , and finally in the Catholick Church you are not with us ; do not at all touch Protestants , who are in the Catholick Church with other Christians , though not with the Roman party , who are most like the Donatists ; and the Protestants hold with Augustine in the same Epistle , that that kinde of Letters ( to wit , of Bishops , such as Hilary , Cyprian , &c. ) is to be distinguished from the authority of the Canon of the Scripture . For they are not so read as if testimony were brought out of them , that it may not be lawfull to think to the contrary , if perhaps they thought otherwise than the truth requires .

SECT. IV.

H. T. hath not solved the Objections acquiting Protestants from Schism and Heresie , and condemning Papists .

It follows in H. T. Objections solved . Object . We separated onely from the Church of Rome's errours . Answ. Yea , from her Catholick and Apostolical Doctrines . She doth not erre in Faith , as hath been proved . I answer therefore with St. Augustine to the Donatists ; I object to you the crime of Schism , which you will deny , and I will presently prove , because you do not communicate with all Nations , cont. Petil. Add , no nor with any Nation before Luther .

I Reply , that we separate from any other than the Church of Rome 's errours , and sins , is said , but not proved , and that she , that is , the Bishop of Rome and his party do not erre in Faith is not proved , but impudently said against plain evidence of Scripture , Councils , and Fathers , and I reply by retorting Augustine's words . I object to you the crime of Schism , which you will deny , and I will presently prove , because you do not communicate with all Nations , particularly you English Recusant Papists H. T. and the rest are manifest Schismaticks , for you separate from the Catholick Church in that you do not communicate with the Protestant Church of Christ in England . It is false , that those who held the same truth with Protestants under other names , held no communion with any Nation before Luther : For as far as they could , and ought , they held communion with a. called on the Name of the Lord Jesus in France , Bohemia , England , and elsewhere , under the names of Waldenses , Hussites , Picards , Wiclevists , Lollards , and such like .

H. T. adds . Object . We refused onely the Church of Rome's Innovations and Superstitions . Answ. You slander . Her Discipline and Doctrines were the same then that they have been in all precedent Ages . Did the Church perish ( saith St. Augustine to the Donatists , or did she not ? If she did , what Church brought forth the Donatists ? ( or the Protestants ? ) If she did not , what madness moved you to separate your selves from her , on pretence of avoiding the communion of bad men ? lib. 1. cont. Gaudent . cap 7. And again , We are certain no man can justly separate himself from the communion of all Nations ( yet Martin Luther and Mr. Tyndal did it ) Epist. 48. And in another place , All Separation made before the drawing of the Net on the shore ( at the Day of Judgement ) is damnable and the Sacrilege of Schism , which surpasseth all other crimes , lib. 2. cont. Epist. Parmen.

I reply , it is a Scolds trick to say we slander , and not to prove it . We prove out of Paul's Epistle to the Romans , that the Roman Church then held Justification by Faith without Works , that every Soul even Popes were to be subject to Princes , that the Scriptures are to be the Rule of Faith , that the Church of Rome might fail , that the Roman church is but a particular Church , that it is evil to judge Christians for not observing difference of Meats and Days , that it is Idolatry to do , as Papists now do , worshiping the Creature with such Worship as belongs to the Creatour , that we are not to invocate Saints in whom we believe not , with sundry more , in which the present Roman church hath swe●ved from the primitive . We prove out of Gregory the Great himself , that the Doctrine and Discipline of the Roman church is not the same now as it was in all precedent Ages , for he rejected the Title of Universal Bishop now usurped by the Pope , and disavowed the Worship of Images , with other things now received at Rome , and before him Pope Gelasius termed the denying the Cup to the Lay-people sacrilegious . Augustine himself hath taught us to account his words below Scripture-canon : yet his speeches touch not us , who do not separate our selves from the church of Christ on pretence of avoiding communion of bad men , but from the Papacy on full proof that the communion of the Popish church is imposed on conditions of acknowledging such Errours , and practising such Idolatry as are damnable . We do not say , that the church perished , but that it was continued in a remnant of persecuted Saints . We need not allege any Church for our Mother , but the Jerusalem which is abov● , which is the Mother of us all , Gal. 4. 26. I judge it no better than an inconsiderate speech to say , any visible church is the Mother of Christians , it is in my apprehension all one as to say , the church is the Mother of the church , Christians or believers being all one with the church , and therefore count such speeches , whoever Father or Prelate he be that useth them , no better than ridiculous non-sense , and much more to call Bishops our Fathers in Christ , and yet to term them the Church also and our Mother . Nor need we allege a Church that brought us forth , it is sufficient we can prove our Faith to be according to the Gospel , and allege that we have been begotten by it , which way soever it be . Were not the ●berians a church of Christians who were converted by ● captive Maid when there was no church there before , and the Indians by ●rumentius without a Church to bring them forth ? May not a man have Faith and Salvation in a Wilderness where he knows of no church ? Neither did Luther nor Tyndal separate themselves from all Nations , but were expelled and pe●secuted by the devilish Popes and Popish Clergy of Rome , when they endeavoured to restore the purity of the Gospel to the Germans , English , and other Nations . If Augustine meant simply , that all Separation made before the Day of Judgement is damnable , he wrote that which is not true , it being contrary to Paul's practise , Acts 18. 9. God's command , 2 Cor. 6. 17. 2 Tim. 3 5. 2 Thess. 3. 8. Revel. 18. 4. He himself acknowledgeth lib. 2. cont Epist. P●rmen . cap. 21. A man is not to associate with others when he cannot have society with them but by doing evil with them . But if he meant it of such Separation as the Donatists made ( as it is likely he doth ) it toucheth not us , who separate not from the Romanists , because some evil men are tolerated , but because Errour , Idolatry , and other evils are urged on us by them , and such is their tyranny , that without yielding to them there is no communion , but in stead thereof Banishment or Burning .

Once more saith H. T. Object . We did but separate from the particular Church of Rome . Therefore not from the whole Church . Answ. I told you it the Question of the Churches universality in what sense the Church of Rome i● universal or Catholick , and in what sense she is particular , take it in which acception you will your Consequence is false , for whosoever separates from an acknowledged true Member of the Catholick Church ( and such the Church of Rome then was in her particular ) he consequently separates from the whole , and is an Heretick or Schismatick .

I reply , neither as it is taken for the congregation of Rome or Italy , nor as it notes a collection of all the Churches holding communion with the See of Rome is the Roman Church rightly termed the Catholick Church : the non-sense and falshood thereof is shewed before Art. 5. Sect. 8. Nor is it true that he that separates from the Catholick Roman Church , in either sense is an Heretick or Schismatick . And to his proof I say , 1. That many Protestants deny the Roman Church a true Member of the Catholick Church when Luther separated , but call it an Antichristian and malignant Church ; and they that acknowledge it a true Church , in respect of the truth of being , yet not of Doctrine , and they that say it had the truth of being , say it not of the predominant part , but of the latent , conceiving it was with them as it was with Israel in the days of Elijah , that they did not own those Errours and evils which were practised in them , or avouched by them , though living among them , or if they did yield to them , or some of them , they had pardon , as doing it in ignorance , retaining the old Creed of the Apostles : And they attribute the truth of it to the few fundamental Articles which they held , who were in it , though very unsoundly by reason of the errours and corruptions mixed with them , which made the Church among the Romanists as a leprous man unfit for converse and communion , with whom though they might continue for a time in expectation of their repentance , yet they might say to Rome being found u●c●rable , as the Jews to Babylon , Jer. 51. 9. We would have healed Babylon , but she is not healed : forsake her , and let us go every one into his own countrey : for her Judgement reacheth unto the Heaven , and is lifted up unto the Skies . 2. That it is not universally true , that he who separates from an acknowledged true Member of the Catholick Church separtes from the whole there may be a Separation partial not total , privative not positive , out of prejudice and passion , in heat not in heart , as between Paul and Barnabas , Acts 15. 39. Chrysostome and Epiphanius , temporary not perpetual , in prudence though not out of absolute necessity , necessary not voluntary , just and not rash , without revolt from the Faith , or persecution of those from whom it is made . In many of these sorts there may be a Separation which may be from an acknowledged true Member of the Catholick Church , and yet no Separation from the whole . And therefore this Position of H. T. will not be yielded him without better proof and demonstration , that the Separation from the Church of Rome which Protestants have made cannot stand with union with the Catholick Church in Doctrine and Discipline . Which sure he hath not yet proved , nor is it likely he ever will : but as the fashion of these Scriblers is , sing over again and again their Cuckoes Song of the Catholick Roman Church , and that Protestants are Hereticks and Sectaries , with other Popish gibberish , though the folly and frivolousness thereof hath been a thousand times demonstrated .

I have thus at last examined these nine Articles , being moved thereto out of hope to do some souls good by recovering them out of the snare in which they are held by Satan and Romish Emissaries . If they shut their eys against the light , their judgement will be of themselves . I shall add prayer for them , that God would open their eys , and , if time , health , and other concurrences suit with my aims , discover the vanity of the rest of H. T. his Manual . In the mean time , not as some Romanists blasphemously Praise be to the Virgin Mother , in the end of their Writings , but as Paul concluded his Epistle to the Romans so do I , To God onely wise be glory through JESUS CHRIST for ever . Amen .

FINIS .