The unreasonablnes of the separation made apparent, in an examination of, and answere to, certaine reasons of Maister Francis Johnson: whereby he laboureth to justifie his schisme from the church assemblies of England; By Maister VVilliam Bradshaw deceased. Together with a rejoinder, in defence of the said answere against the late reply of Maister Iohn Canne (a leader to a company of Brownists in Amsterdam) thereunto, by a freind [sic] of the deceased.

The maine Conclusion of Maister Johnsons Reasons , as it is propounded by himselfe .

Fr. Iohnson .

It is not Lawfull to heare or have any spirituall communion with the present Ministery of the Church-Assemblies of England .

W . Bradshaw .

This he laboureth to proove , 1. by Reasons , as he fancieth , drawne from Scripture , and other testimonies .

2 By Arguments collected from the writings of them , whome he stileth ( in disdain ) forward preachers . And this he performeth , as farre as the remainders of his Logick skill will give him leave , in moode and figure . But the figure for the most part is of his owne shaping , such as never came forth of any Logick Schooles : yet seeing the trueth he opposeth receiveth no disadvantage thereby , I can , for my owne part , bee content that his Syllogismes still retaine those formes and figures , that he hath put upon them , and spare the labour of translating them into new . And so , without any further expence of words , I come to the examination of the first sort of Reasons .

In these words of Mr. B. Mr. Can observeth nothing but some insinuating flourishes , ( as he speakes ) of his owne skill in Logick ▪ and great contempt put upon Maister Johnson for his unablenes therein ; which he purposely passeth by . ] But Mr. Can may doe well to consider , that it was justly to be expected of Mr. Iohnson pretending to draw all to Syllogisticall formes , contrary to the usuall manner of those of that side , whose common fashion is , to fling out pamphlets full stuft , either with furious invectives , or tedious discourses , having neither head nor foote , but so jumbled together , that in a main heape of words a man can hardly finde any shew or shadow of Argument ; that he should have beene exact and precise in those his formes : and he might deservedly therefore be censured for his failings therein , unles it could be shewed , that he had not therein failed .

The first sort of Reasons from Scripture and other Testimonies .

The first Reason .

Fr I.

All are bound in the worship of God , to heare and communicate onely with that ministery , which Christ hath given and set in his Church for that worke .

But the present ministery of the Church-assemblies of England is not that , which Christ hath given and set in his Church for the worke of the ministerie .

Therefore it is not Lawfull for any in the worship of God , to heare or communicate with the present , ministery of the Church-assemblies of England .

W . Bradshaw

Not to contend about the proposition : I deny the Assumption : and affirme , that the ministery of our Church-assemblies ( howsoever it may in some particular parts of the execution , happily be defective in some places ) is , for the substance thereof , that very same ministery , which Christ hath set in his Church for the worke of his ministery , whether it bee the ministery of those which he calleth the forward preachers , or of those , which being qualified according to the true intent of the Law , doe subscribe and conforme according to the Lawes of the State .

Hereunto Maister Can , desirous to pick out somewhat to cavill at , thus replieth .

1. He marvells , why Maister Bradshaw should say , that Maister Iohnson stiled them forward preaches in disdain ? and accuseth him of breach of charity therein : since that he knew not Maister Iohnsons heart , affirming withall on his knowledge , that it is a tearme commonly given and taken of them acceptably in good part . ] But for Maister Cans knowledge what ever it be , to say nothing of his charity , his conscience by this worke of his is so well knowne , that his credite is very meane , either in this cause , or any other . It is well knowne , that the phrase is usually taken as a flout ; and may the rather be so taken from the mouths and pens of such , as so deeme of them as Maister Iohnson and Maister Can doe .

2. He desireth to be informed , what Lawes are here meant ; and what the intent of those Lawes is : and whether all bee so qualified or no . ] To all which in a word it is sufficient to answere , that they who have proclaimed a Separation from All our Church-assemblies , and by these and the like arguments endevour to enforce a necessity of the same , must make that they produce in justification thereof , good in the generall : and if any shall be pleased to point out some to them , against whome they are least able to make any colourable Exception , that is more then they need doe , they that have undertaken to proove the Generall Separation , must make theire proofes for it as generall .

As for the Law meant I might well turn him over to his brother Iohnson , to demand of him , what Lawes he meant or speakes of in the proofe of the proposition of the next syllogisme but one : or to the Booke of Ordination , that he hath in a manner transcribed in prosecution of the proposition of the first Argument of his 2 Reason . But , for fuller satisfaction both concerning the Laws and the true intent of them , I referre him to the Abstract ; a booke which by his quotation of it elswhere , I presume him to be well acquainted with .

3. He bids observe the vanity of Maister Bradshaws speech : Theire ministers are true ministers if they be , &c. which is , saith he , as if a known harlot should say , I am honest , if I am qualified according to the word of God .

Surely this man , it seemeth , hath got a harlots forehead ; he hath no shame at all what he saith . For where doth Mr. B. say , that our ministers are true ministers , if they be qualified according to the word of God ? which unles Mr. Bradshaw say , Mr. Can saith he cares not what : supposing that with an Et caetera , he might make his Reader , not having Mr. Bradshaws booke by him , beleeve that Mr. Bradshaw had sayed so much . Yea where doth he say , that they are true ministers , If they be qualified according to the true intent of the Law ? as if he spake by an hypothesis , that putteth nothing in Esse . He saith onely , that the ministery not of forward preachers onely , as Mr. Iohnson tearmes them , thereby meaning the non-conformists , but even of those also that conforme and subscribe , so many of them , at least , as are so qualified , as the Law entendeth they should be : presuming that sundry such are as well of the one sort as of the other ; and understanding thereby men of competent ability of gifts , and of honest course of life , ( for both these our Lawes , as the Author above mentioned sheweth , require in them ) and that many such are in most parts with us , is so manifest , that the devill himselfe ( whatsoever Mr. Can may doe ) I suppose , durst not deny it . But let hereby not the vanity onely , but the conscience of the man , and his square dealing appeare , that hereafter he be tried before he be trusted .

Fr. Iohnson .

The ministery which Christ hath given and set in his Church , is of Apostles , Prophets , Evangelists , Pastors and Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11.12 .

But the present ministery of the Church of England is none of these spoken of Eph. 4.11 , 12.

Therefore it is not the ministery , which Christ hath given and set in his Church .

W . Brads●aw .

The present ministery of the Church of England ( i . of the Church-Assemblies of England ) is the ministery of Pastors and Teachers .

Fr. Iohnson .

The present ministery of the Church of England is of Prelates , Priests , and Deacons .

But neither Prelates , Priests , nor Deacons of that Church are Pastors and Teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11 , 12.

Therefore it is none of those spoken of Eph. 4.11 , 12.

W . Bradshaw

I denie both proposition and assumption . For 1. Tho' our Prelates doe sometimes voluntarily and occasionally performe the same worke and service in some of our Church-assemblies , which our ordinarie ministers doe , yet their Prelaticall or Episcopall office or ministery consists in overseeing the ministers and ministery of our Church-assemblies .

Here the proposition being , as you see thus denyed , Maister Can tells us that Mr. B. mistakes Maister Iohnsons words ; for he saith not , that the Prelates are ministers of the Church-assemblies , but of the Church of England .

But Maister Bradshaw mistakes not Maister Iohnsons words , but Maister Can mistakes the matter in hand , and Maister Iohnson if he speake other wise , goeth from the matter . For if Maister Can please but to looke backe to the assumption of the first syllogisme , he shall finde that it ought to bee so conceived , or else it speakes not to the purpose ; and this exception therefore is frivolous . Yet he telleth us with all that he can proove , if neede were , that the Prelates are the ministers of the Church-assemblies . But belike it needed not ; and therefore he letteth it alone , and so leaveth Maister Iohnsons proposition to shift for it selfe .

2. He saith , that if the ministery of the Prelates bee not the proper ministery of the Church-assemblies , then is the same Antichristian ; and tells us , he hath formerly prooved so much from their owne principles . ] But what is this to the confirmation of Maister Iohnsons proposition ? he may finde himselfe worke that will follow his wilde-goose race . Let others doe that , if they will .

Lastly he saith , Maister Bradshaw should have prooved , that authority and power that the Law giveth the Prelates , to be Lawfull . Did this man , thinke wee , ever learne , what belongeth to Logick , or methode , or Laws of dispute , that putteth the answerer to prove , and requireth him to proove that which nothing concerneth the present argument ? who is so silly , as not to see the folly of this argument : Maister Bradshaw hath not prooved the Prelates power to be Lawfull . Therefore Maister Iohnsons proposition standeth firme ; or Mr. Bradshaw ought not to deny it .

But he seeth not what reason Maister Bradshaw had to mention it . Must Mr. Bradshaw needs both give an answere , and finde Maister Can either eyes to see what he answereth to , or to conceave the reason , why he so answeres . If he had considered what Maister Iohnsons proposition was or ought to be , to wit , The present ministery of the Church-assemblies of England , is the ministery of Prelates , &c. he might soone have seene what reason Maister Bradshaw had to mention them . He whome he answereth to , had so done before him ; and he was to make answere to what he had propounded : which is done here by deniall .

W . Bradshaw

2 , Tho' sometimes our ministers be called Priests and Deacons , yet the ministery under those names assigned to them , and which they exercise , is not the proper and essentiall ministery of either Priests or Deacons , but of Pastors and Teachers . So that they are onely in equivocation and name , or metaphorically , Priests and Deacons ; but really Pastors and Teachers : and therefore such Priests and Deacons may be , and in deed and truth are such Pastors and Teachers as are spoken of Eph. 4.11 , 12.

The Assumption being by Maister Bradshow thus denied , Maister Can replieth :

1. By bare contradiction of Maister Bradshaws deniall .

2. By noting his lightnes and inconstancy , as he saith , standing one while for the justification of all our ministers as here , other while defending those onely that are qualifyed by Law , &c. ] Which exception of his is idle , as hath beene before shewed . For whatsoever his answere is , theire proofes ought to be generall ; theire separation intended to be prooved Lawfull , yea and necessary , being such .

Besides Maister Bradshaw saith no more here ( his answere considered as it hath reference to Maister Iohnsons assumption ) but that notwithstanding the name of Priests and Deacons , those that are so stiled , yet may and doe exercise such a ministery as the Apostle there speaketh of ; and the ministery exercised , to wit , by such as doe exercise the same , is such a ministery .

Whereby also may appeare the frivolousnes of that he addeth : to wit , that it is untruely affirmed , that theire Priests and Deacons doe exercise the proper & essentiall ministery of pastors and teachers . Which to proove he alledgeth out of some broad-mouthed writers , that they are most of them idle-bellyd Epicures , senseles asses , and such as can not preach : that our Deacons are not by Law to administer the Sacraments , nor the full-priests , but according to a popish Liturgy : yea that none of them may , nor doe exercise Church-government , which is an essentiall and proper part of their ministery .

To which I answere .

1. Tho' all this were passed over , and no notice taken of Mr. Cans new exceptions , yet were Mr. Bs. answere no way prejudiced thereby , nor prooved insufficient to Mr. I●hnsons argument , which alone he was to answere .

2. To let passe that , as a peece of Mr. Cans Rhetorick , that he stileth our forme of administring the Sacraments a popish Liturgy ; the controversy that may be of assigning men principally for some time to the execution of some part of the ministery ; the dispute of the necessity of such Church-goverment , as these men fancy to themselves ; the exception to such Church-goverment denyed by Law to the ministers of the Church-assemblies ; the grosse and palpable falshood of theire assertion , what ever they were , that affirme the most of our ministers to be such as he saith : suppose they were so , what is all this to Mr. Is. argument , that therefore the ministers of the Church-assemblies of England are not the pastors and teachers St. Paul speaketh of , because they are stiled Priests and Deacons . For unlesse he can proove that therefore they are such idle-bellyed Epicures sensles Asses and unable to preach , because they are stiled Priests and Deacons , Mr. Is. argument remaineth still of as little force as ever it was ; for ought that Maister Can here saith ; that is , in truth , of just none at all .

But let us see whether Mr. Iohnson himselfe have brought stronger matter to confirme the denyed axiomes , or no . His proposition he thus prooveth .

Fr Ihonson .

The proposition is manifest .

1. The Laws of that Church admitteth no other ministery , but that of their prelacy , priesthood and Deaconry , receaved amongst themselves , or from the papistes .

2 Their constitution is such , as all the ministers of that Church must be Priests or Deacons , & these also either in a superior degree , as the Prelates , Arch-Bishops , Suffraganes , &c. or in an inferiour , as parsons , vicars , stipendarys , chaplins .

W . Bradshaw

1. It is not necessary that the ministery of a country or nation should be alwayes such , as the Law establisheth or admitteth . The ministery ( at least in some places ) may be good though the Law in generall should admit and establish such a one as is bad : as on the contrary side , the ministery may at some times , and in some cause be bad , though the Laws admit and establish never so good . For the governers of Churches & Commonwealths , who have the dispensation of Laws , may in their Christian wisedome & moderation permit a ministery in sundry respects different from that which the Lawes require : yea & our own governers in fact have permitted the ministery of some , who never receaved ordination , either from papists or themselves : & he can not be ignorant , but that some by connivency are yet suffered in some points of theire ministery to swerve from some observances which the Laws require . The argument therefore will not follow from the quality of the ministery , except he can proove that our ministery is in all our assemblies , in all respects answerable to our Laws .

Here there is indeed an evident eviction of the weaknesse of Mr. Is. proofe : But what saith Mr. Can to it ? he good modest man , that holdeth it no Christian office to render rebuke for rebuke , & holdeth it better a thousand times to sustain even a legion of reproaches , then by returning tho' but one , to give cause of suspition that evill hath got some part of conquest in him . Yet he can not holde any longer but as a vessell full of new wine , that will burst if it want vent , breaketh out in plaine termes and telleth us ; that no man could ever passe this man here in absurdenes , and there is neither wit nor truth in that he saith . And his reasons forsooth : 1. Our question , saith he , is not of what should or may be in a land ; but of that which we know is by Law established and practised accordingly .

But the question , Mr. Can , is ( if you know what you are or should be about , to wit , the defence of Mr. Iohnsons arguments , & the discovery of the invalidity of the answeres thereunto , ) whether this be a sound argument : The Law admitts no ministery , but such and such . Ergo the ministery of all the Church-assemblys in England , is such as the Law onely admitts . Which is plainely shewed to be unsound , because the ministery is not necessarily allwayes such as the Laws of a State onely admitt . That which in due course of reason doth necessarily evince the weakenes of Maister Iohnsons consequence , as Maister Can himselfe , if he understand reason , can not deny . The question therefore is , what may be in a land , notwithstanding the Laws of the Land . And whatsoever Maister Can and his companions know to be either by Law with us established , or accordingly practised , is nothing to the proposition now present in question .

2. He cannot believe that any such as Maister Bradshaw speaketh of were by the Prelates ever permitted : yea he is perswaded that he could never proove it .

And I beleeve Maister Bradshaw had good ground for that he said , and was able to make good proofe of it . Nor doe I doubt but instance might easily be given therein , if need were . But Maister Bradshaws credite is , I suppose as good as Maister Cans : & upon theire two credits , or the assertion of the one , and the conterpersuasion of the other , let the busines it selfe rest . Yet let me adde that Maister Can himselfe herein confesseth : It may be that some one or two might secretly pas in such sort ; unknowne : I suppose , he meaneth , to the Prelates ; which is sufficient to cut the sinewes of Maister Iohnsons argument , which he undertaketh here to defend ; and to proove the reason from the ministery by the Law onely admitted , to the ministery exercised and executed , not to be generally sound .

3. For suppose , saith he , a Prelate should for love or money permit the ministery , &c. doth it follow therefore that the ministery of that Church is any other , but of theire prelacy priesthood or deaconry , as Maister Iohnson saith ? For what if some have as much permission under the papacy is not theire ministery then of prelacy , priesthood & deaconry ? indeed so Maister Bradshaw did inferre , but with what witt or truth , let the Reader judge .

Now this is brought to pr●ove , ( and therefore after that his bold-bayardly censure , vizt . No man , I thinke , could pas him in absurdnes here , it hath a For fixed before it ) that Maister Bradshaw is the absurdest man that ever was . But I suppose , any indifferent Reader , and advised compater of both theire writings together , will soone see and say , that Maister Can is one of the triflingest fellows , that ever put pen to paper . For uppose a Prelate should permit the ministery of some , that never receaved ordination from either Papists or themselves ( for that is it , that Maister Cans , &c. should have expressed ) doth it not necessarily hence follow , that the ministery of such may be other then that which the Law onely admitteth , and consequently the ministery of neither Prelates , Priests nor Deacons ; it being presumed that the Law admitteth no other ministery , than the ministery of such ? yea for permission under the papacy ( though Maister Bradshaw speaketh nothing of any permission under them , nor doth inferre ought at all thence , much les ought without wit or truth , which is therefore Maister Cans owne grosse & manifest untruth ) but suppose under the papacy some should have permission to exercise a ministery not receaved from them , would it not thence follow , that the ministery of such were other then their Law alloweth , and not necessarily the ministery of either Prelates , Priests or Deacons ? But this man still forgetteth himselfe where he is , and indeed put out of the way a little by his brother Iohnsons Sophistry , not carefull to keepe himselfe to the tearmes of the question , & to put in as he should have done , in his former argument , the ministery of the Church assemblies of England , supposeth , that Maister Bradshaw should reason on this manner .

Some are or have beene permitted to exercise their ministery , who never receaved it from the Prelates . Therefore the ministery of the Church of England , consisteth not of Prelates , Priests and Deacons . Which being not Maister Bradshaws argument , but the fruite of his owne idle brain , if there be any such grosse absurdity in it , as he saith , he may well take it to himselfe .

4. He tells us , a man may be an unlawfull minister , though he never receaved the Bishops ordination , as when he runs of his owne head , and not elected , called and ordained by the free & common comsent of a true Church ; and such were those as Maister Bradshaw speaketh of if he speake truth .

To let passe his unchristian censure of such as he professeth himselfe altogether ignorant of , and cannot therefore know either by whome or in what manner they were elected , called and ordained , and yet passeth such a peremtory sentence upon them , therein verifying the common proverb , that a fooles bolt is soone shot . Whether they were Lawfull ministers or no , the instance granted is sufficient to proove ( if he that taxeth others for want of wit , had wit enough to conceave it ) that the ministery of some may be other then by the Law is alone allowed .

5. As little therefore to the purpose is that which he addeth , that though some doe swerve from some observances , yet theire calling is not therefore more true and Lawfull : as Monkes and Friers , though they keepe not all their rules and orders , yet are still the Divels and the Popes Officers ; even so , &c. ] And who , but an idle cocks-combe like himselfe , would ever frame any such argument ? or doth Maister Bradshaw make any such inference ? onely he thence inferreth , that a ministery may be other then the Law of a place , where it is exercised , alloweth . And Maister Can therefore may keepe such divels Officers , as he tearmes them , to himselfe and his , if he please .

W . Bradshaw

2. The Priesthood which the Law admitteth , is not called Sacerdotium , but Presbyteratus ; and the Priests are not called sacerdotes or sacrificers , but presbyters , ( as sufficiently appeares by our orders in Latine . ) therefore the Law doth not intend any true or proper Priesthood , but onely borroweth the name to expresse an office of an other kinde .

This is that indeed , which Maister Iackson before mentioned would not beleeve , untill he was shewed some letters of orders , whereby the same evidently appeared .

Now to this Maister Can replieth , that tho' our Law intend not such a proper Priesthood , as was in the Iewish Church , nor as is in all respects now under the Romish beast , yet this helps nothing theire cause , seing it establisheth such a ministery , as by theire owne confession is directly against the word of God .

You see , grant this man the maine conclusion in controversy , and hee needs no more , he will cary all hand smooth afore him . Whether this helpe our cause or no , is not materiall for the present . Sure it taketh of the edge of Mr. Iohnsons argument : and yet I thinke that helpeth us not a little , that disableth any dart thrown against us by so great a Golias as Mr. Iohnson was among them generally esteemed , before the schisme broke out betweene Maister As. & him , from either touching us or doing us any damage .

For if our priesthood be but presbyteratus , and our priests no other then presbyters ; sure the argument , whose whole weight lieth on the very tearme it selfe , therefore denying our Ministery to the ministery of Pastors & Teachers spoken of by Saint Paul , because it is a ministery of presbyters ; when as these very pastors and teachers spoken of by Saint Paul were no other then presbyters , as appeareth Tit . 3.5 . and 1. Tim . 5.17 . is a most frivolous and ridiculous reason .

W. Bradshaw

3. To be Parsons , Vicars , Stipendarys , Chaplins , &c. is not to have a divers kinde of Priesthood or Deaconry , or ministery ( as he foolishly conceiteth : ) Only variety of titles is given to the same kinde of ministery , in diverse persons , in respect onely of a divers kinde of maintenance or dependance . For parsons are such as have all tithes in kinde ; Vicars such , as have onely the smaller tithes , the other being impropriated by the magistrate for other purposes : Stipendarys are such as are maintained by the voluntary contribution of theire Churches , or by some such like meanes : Chaplins are such as depend upon great men . The ministery of all , which ( if they duly execute the same ) is one and the same , even that ( and no other for stubstance ) which is proper to true Pastors and Teachers .

To this Maister Can replieth 1. that he hath prooved from the writings ( of I know not whome , and whome neither I nor Maister Bradshaw have here any thing to doe with ) that these names and offices came wholly from the Devill and Antichrist : and that Maister Bradshaw pleadeth for Baal , and telleth a tale , that neither helpeth him nor hurteth them : and withall tells him what he should have done , if he would have Maister Can of his counsell ; vizt . have manifested , that his brethren have notoriously slandered our ministery , and so have taken quite away theire Reasons . ] So it seemes in Maister Cans judgement , that Mr. Iohnsons arguments , without better reasons , that have ben brought by other of our owne , are of no validity to evince the point in controversy ; and that therefore it neither helpeth us , nor hurterh them , whether his arguments stand or fall . Maister Bradshaw had here to doe onely with him ; and because he hath so well warded all the blows that he reacheth at us ; Maister Can would have him to let him alone , whome he had undertaken to deale with , and set himselfe against some other .

2. He saith , his conclusion is pittifull , in regard of those words , if they duly execute the same . Not without just cause inserted by Maister Bradshaw , because a man may have the office of a pastor , and not execute it duly , and so make his ministery the more questionable . ] But I may well say , he is a pittyfull replier , that leaveth the argument he undertaketh to maintaine , to sinke or swim , as it will it selfe , running out the whilest into wilde vagarys , that nothing concerne it .

And hitherto of Maister Bradshaws answere to Maister Iohnsons proposition of his second prosyllogisme , with his proofes of it : in replie whereunto Mr. Can hath canted much in his Schismaticall language ; but not given us any one word that maketh to the purpose .

The Assumption , wherein the weight of the argument most resteth , is by Maister Iohnson backed with 7. severall arguments ; that among such variety some one at least may make all sure . ] The first of them is this .

Fr. Iohnson .

The pastors and teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11 . have theire offices , callings , administrations and maintenance ordained by Christ in his Testament Eph. 4.8 , 11 , 12. Rom. 12.7 , 8. Act. 14.23 . & 20.17 , 28. Hebr . 5.4 . Col. 4.17 . 1. Thes . 5.12 , 13 , 14. 1. Petr . 5.1 , 2 , 3. Rev. 2. & 3. & 22.18 . 1. Cor . 14.1 . & 5.4 . and 9.14 . & 11.23 . & 12.28 . Gal. 6.6 .

But the Prelates , Priests and Deacons of the Church of England have not their offices , calling , ministration and maintenance ordained by Christ in his Testament .

Ergo , they are not the pastors and teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11 .

W . Bradshaw

1. The proposition is not true , except he understand by offices , callings & administration , the substantiall or essentiall parts thereof . Otherwise those very pastors and teachers there spoken of , may have divers accessary parts of theire offices , callings and administration not ordained by Christ in the New Testament .

Neither is it true , if by maintenance he meane any speciall kinde of maintenance . It is to be granted in generall ; that ministers are to have sufficient maintenance , and the texts alleadged for that , proove no more ; and therefore that which they proove is nothing to the purpose . As litle to the purpose are the other tents : for it will not follow from any force in them , but that there may be sundry accidents cleaving as parts to the office , calling and maintenance of true pastors and teachers , with Christ never ordained .

Here Maister Can having acknowledged his owne ignorance , that he knows not what those accessary part are , which when he is better informed of , we shall heare more of his minde : after his wonted manner , when he hath nothing to say , runs away to another matter , and telleth us , that our ministery wants the substantiall and essentiall parts of these offices , and what he would have Maister Bradshaw have done here , but doth not . Which what is it , all of it , to Maister Iohnsons proposition , that saith nothing of our ministery at all , ( which his assumption is to speake of ) but of the ministery of pastors & teachers in generall , as they have their callings , offices , administrations , and meanes of maintainance , ordained by Christ in his testament ? Unles any man in his right wits , Maister Can onely excepted , will deeme this a good argement : The ministers of the Church of England want the very essentiall parts of the offices of pastors and teachers , as some of them selves doe not barely say , but soundly proove too ( if you will take it on Maister Cans word ) and Maister Bradshaw hath nothing in this booke to confute them ( tho' that is as true as the other . ) Ergo , the offices , callings , administration and maintenance of pastors and teachers are in all points specially ordained by Christ in the new testament .

W . Bradshaw

2. Concerning the Assumption . 1. whether prelates have their office , calling , &c. ordained by Christ , is besides the present question . Except Maister Iohnson can proove that they are ordinary ministers of our Church-assemblies ; which I am sure he can not .

To this Maister Can replies , that whether they be ordinary or extraordinary ministers , it is not materiall , and therefore the distinction is idle and impertinent . Hnd so havinh spent some of his wonted railing Rhetorick upon them , he leaveth them , to be placed by him in what order or degree he will .

Yet by his leave , it is pertinent : For Maister Iohnson laying his action against the ministers of our Church-assemblies , and the issue betweene him and Maister Bradshaw being joined thereupon , tho' he could make that he saith good against the prelates , unles he be able to proove them ministers of our Church-assemblies , he speaketh nothing that toucheth those , against whome his plea is .

W. Bradshaw

2. So many of our ministers ( whoe in the bookes of ordination are called Priests and Deacons ) as in all points concerning the substance of their ministery , are qualifyed according to the intent of the Laws , have their offices , callings , administration & maintenance , for the substance thereof , ordained by Christ . And yet I deny not , but there may be some accidentall defects , or superflaitys in or about them all ; yet such as doe not , or can not be prooved to destroy the natute and substance of any of them .

To this is nothing by Mr. Can here said ; and we have nothinh therefore concerning it to say further to him .

Fr Ihonson .

The Assumption appeareth by their constitution and practise : in as much as their offices of prelacy , priesthood and deaconry ; their calling and entrance , according to theire pontificall ; theire choise of theire people , who stand themselves under Anti-Christ , and unseperated from the world , and are no true visible Churches of Christ ; their ministration by their owne and other popish canons , actes , injunctions and booke of Common praier ; their maintainance by Tithes , Lordships , &c. were never ordained by Christ for his ministery , but derived from Antichrist , and his apostasy ; as hath bin prooved by us in divers treatises .

W. Bradshaw

3. All that is brought to proove the assumption is false , and as much if not , more controversall , then the assumption it selfe . For

1. He can never proove , that either the practise of all our ministers , is in all things according to theire constitution , or theire constitution according to theire practise , on either of them answerable to the strict termes of the Law in all points .

2. He can never proove , that either in theire constitution or theire practise , or by the Law , they are in proper speech , either Priests or Deacons ; onely he presumes them to be such , because through some liberty of speech used in the Laws , they are tearmed such .

3. Tho' it should be granted , that our people stand under some kinde of observancies and offices , which in their owne nature , and first originall , are in some kinde Antichristian ; yet they are of such a nature , that divers worthy martyrs of Iesus Christ , that have withstood Antichrist unto blood , have stood under as much as we . And therefore such a manner of standing under Antichrist , can not be said to overthrow , tho' it may somewhat staine , the ministery of Christ . But howsoever he therein shamefully begs the question in the naked affirming , without any proofe , that all in this Kingdome are under Antichrist .

4. Tho' for avoyding further controversy , that should be granted him , that some parts of our ministration by the Canons , &c. was never ordained by Christ ; yet at the least , the maine , principall and essentiall parts thereof performed according to the canons and booke aforesaid , are ordained by Christ ; yea practised by Mr. Iohnson himselfe . Neither hath he prooved or ever can proove , that that part of our ministration by our Canons and booke aforesaid , which Christ hath not ordained , ( if any such be ) is of that nature and quality , that it necessarily destroyeth or maketh a nullity of the other parts of theire ministery , which use them .

5. Tho' titles , Lordships and manners in particular , be not ordained by Christ for the maintenance of ministers , yet they are as much ordained as any other particular or speciall kinde of maintenance : It is the will of Christ , that the ministers of the gospell should live of the gospell , i.e. should be maintained for their ministery sake by them , to whome they preach the gospell . But in what particular manner that maintenance should be raised , he hath no where defined , and therefore left it to the discretion of Christian Magistrates or Churches .

6. Whereas for the proofe of these maine points , he referreth us to the generall titles of certaine treatises formerly published , he might as well send us ( as they say ) to seeke a needle in a botle of hay . And why doth he not in all other points of this booke , as well as in this , send us to the said treatises ? Seeing he saith nothing throughout this in effect , that he hath not allready said in some one or other of his former bookes .

To all this passing by 2. sections of it wholly untouched ( whereas yet it concerned him to have replyed unto them , as well as to the rest ) Maister Can saith onely this :

1. That Maister Bradshaw could never proove , when he was alive that either the practise of all the priests in the Church of Rome , was in all things answerable to theire constitution , or theire constitution according to theire practise , or either of them answerable to the strict tearmes of the Law . And there upon inferreth that by Maister Bradshaws grounds a man could not conclude any th ng generally against the unlawfulnes of their ministery .

But by Maister Cans good leave , nothing lesse followeth from ought that Maister Bradshaw here saith : but this rather ; that he that will proove a necessity of separation from all Church-assemblies in the papacy , or any part of it , must use better arguments against them , then Maister Iohnson hath used against ours ; and such as are not justly liable to such exception , as this is .

2 , That Maister Bradshaw through ignorance or deceit speaketh besides the present question For Maister Iohnson to proove them fals Ministers , mentioneth theire calling and entrance according to theire Pontificalls . Now he saith nothing to this , but talkes of theire practise .

What the present question is , it may seeme , Maister Can himselfe scarce well knew , or would not know ; he speaketh so oft indeed besides it . But most false it is , that he saith , that Maister Bradshaw speaketh of their practise , but nothing of their entrance ; which either must come within compas of one of the 2. members of Maister Iohnsons division , to wit , constitution , or else maketh nothing to the purpose of that Maister Iohnson speaketh of , when he telleth us , that his assumption appeareth by theire constitution and practise : of both which Maister Bradshaw expressely speaketh againe and againe . Tho' of the ensuing particulars , which either must come under one of those heads , or are else altogether impertinent , he speaketh nothing in particular ; because nothing is brought to make them good , but his Reader is turned over to other treatises to seeke , as he well saith , a needle in a botle of hay ; and they may as easily be denyed by us , as by him they are avowed . And Maister Cans merry passage therefore that insueth , concerning a bastard , that he saith would make a man laugh , and may well indeed , to see Maister Cans folly , might very well have bin spared by him , unles he had a minde as some men at sometimes have , to make himselfe a laughing-stock .

3. He denieth that those administrations , which are performed by theire popish canons , and booke of common prayer , are the maine , principall and essentiall administrations , which Christ hath ordained .

Which is no deniall at all of that which Maister Bradshaw hath avowed ; for his words are , that the maine and essentiall parts of our ministery , performed according to the canons and booke aforesaid , are ordained by Christ ; and that part of it , if any be , which Christ hath not ordained , is not such as destroyed or makes a nullity of the rest . So that this man shootes at random still as his usuall manner is .

Howbeit now , that you may see he meaneth to play the part of a replier , he will proofe what he saith , and the rather , because Maister Iohnson hath failed in his proofes , and given things here barely upon his own word .

For 1. These allow of no true pastors and teachers .

2. They require the Sacraments unlawfully to be administred .

Lastly . They command an idolatrous worship and a devilish discipline .

You see what round worke here is . What would you have more ? yea heare Maister Cans Oracles ; a downright man : which if you please , you may take upon his word : for he prooveth them as well as Maister Iohnson : and if you will but give him his owne words , all will be by and by at an end . As for his next merry passage , ( for it seemeth he was in a vain of laughter , when he was about this argument ) he may doe well to reserve it to make himselfe merry , when he is in some such melancholy fit ; as it may seeme he fell suddenly into in the shutting up of his reply to this part , where he blurreth his paper with those black lines formerly related ; of that mishapen birth , that he wished buried in its mothers wombe , or kept in some darke hole , where it might never see light . Which he might very well have wished to have befalln his own booke , unles the matter of it had been more lovely , then hitherto it hath appeared .

Thus are we come at length to an end of Maister Iohnsons first argument , which being grown to this issue : That Maister Bradshaw in answering thereunto hath averred , that the maine , principall and essentiall parts of our ministery are such as were ordained by Christ , nor are there any such accessarys thereunto annexed , as make as nullity thereof : there is nothing hereunto replyed , as ought to be , but bare words without proofe .

Passe we to the 2. Argument by Maister Iohnson thus conceived .

Fr. Iohnson .

The ministery of pastors and teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11 . is the ordinary and perpetuall ministery given by Christ to his Church , and such as the Princes of the earth neither may nor ever shall be able to abolish , seeing Christ hath appointed it to continue to the end of the world .

But the prelacy , priesthood and deaconry of the Church of England is not the ordinary and perpetuall ministery given by Christ to his Church ; but such as the Princes of the earth may and ought to abolish out of theire dominions . Rev. 17.16 . 1. Tim . 2.2 .. Rom. 13.4 . with 1. King . 23.5 . Deut . 12.2 . Psalm 72.1 .

Therefore the priesthood , prelacy and deaconry of the Church of England is not the ministery of pastors and teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11 .

W . Bradshaw

I deny the assumption . Understanding by prelacy , priesthood & deaconry , the ordinary ministery of our Church assemblies , against which he propoundeth himselfe to dispute : And answere , that it is the ordinary and perpetuall ministery given by Christ to his Church , and such as the Princes of the earth are bound by Gods Laws to maintaine and protect by their autority ; and if there be any corruptions in and about the same , which they ought to abolish , that yet they are accidentall and personall ; and not so essentiall , as that they doe destroy the ministery .

Upon the assumption thus by Maister Bradshaw denyed , if it be conceaved according to the question propounded , heare we now how substantially Maister Can replyeth .

1. He telleth M. Bradshaw if it be so , that Princes are bound to maintaine our ministery , then hath he shamefully from time to time mocked and abused them , in craving so earnestly to have the same quite rooted out and abolished , and the right established in the roome of it .

True indeed , Maister Bradshaw hath shamefully abused and mocked the Magistrate , if ever he so did . But meane while Maister Can shamefully abuseth Maister Bradshaw , & mocketh his Reader , in averring that Maister Bradshaw ever so did : which neither he doth proove , nor will ever be able to doe .

2. He saith , that dumb dogs , cater pillers and idle bellys had never a better proctour then this man , to pleade for theire unlawfull standing : for he saith , the magistrate is bound to defend theire ministery . ] When Maister Bradshaw plainely distinguisheth betweene the ministery it selfe , and the personall abuses of it . Neither such abusers of the ministery , nor theire abuses of it doth he pleade for ; which he granteth the Magistrate stands bound to abandon and abolish ; but to maintaine that ministery that by them is so abused .

For as for what he prateth so oft of his not making distinction of ministers & ministers among us : theire proofes must be generall ; as the separation , they should inferre , is such . ] And for other his lavish language of Maister Bradshaws conscience , as if he cared not how he let it out here at large ; I say no more , but wish Maister Can as tender a conscience , as Maister Bradshaw had , and himselfe as carefull to tie it short . It had in part saved his credite , and spared others some labour , had he kept it in a little better .

W . Bradshaw

The places of Scripture , annexed to the Assumption for the proofe thereof , are all abused and prophaned . For not one of them doth any way so much as colourably proove either of the clauses in the assumption : but onely they proove in generall , that the idolatry , and idolatrous ministery of Antichrist is to be abolished . So that , the man in his simplicity takes it as granted ; that our ministery is such an idolatrous ministery ; which is the maine matter in controversy , and in effect , the generall question of this whole booke .

So Maister Bradshaw . And indeed so gros and palpable is Maister Iohnsons dealing with Scripture here ( a thing too usuall with those of that side ) that at the conference with Maister Iackson before mentioned , he and some other of his company ( it being evidently evinced ) at first , would faine have made it the fault of the Printer , that had misplaced the proofes , and annexed them to the wrong part of the premisses : but when they saw that they fitted as ill , or wors rather , with the proposition , then with the assumption , they were at theire wits end , and had nothing to say in defence of this foule abuse .

But there is no cause so desperate , but Maister Can dare undertake it . Yea by Maister Bradshaws own grants he will make it appeare , that these Scriptures doe proove Maister Iohnsons assumption , and are not therefore abused and prophaned by him . For Maister Bradshaw confesseth , that the idola●rous ministery of Antichrist is to be abolished . And ours , said Maister Can , is such . ] But I demand of Maister Can ; whether it be so or no , doe these places proove it so to be ? Suppose a man should reason on this wise .

A Christian man should shun the societie of such as be haughty , high-minded , selfconceited , boasters , contemners of autority , makers of schisme and division in the Church of God by separating and withdrawing themselves to perdition .

But such are Mr. Can & his company ; as appeares by 2. Tim . 3.2 , 4. Iude 8 , 10 , 19. Rom. 6.18 . Hebr . 10.25 , 39. ] Albeit , the things spoken in those parcels of Scripture pointed to , were true ; as it is to be feared they are of too many among them : yet would not Mr. Can cry out of intolerable abuse therein offered , not to them onely but to Gods word also ? Yea whether the things charged upon them were true or false , yet were it indeed a foule prophanation of Scriptures , to produce it for the proofe of that which it speaketh not , & so to wring that out of it , which in no wise it will yeeld . And yet just such , or rather wors then such , is the practise of Maister Iohnson in this place , as by those instances of places produced by him may appeare .

The Princes of the earth shall destroy the whore of Babylon . Rev. 17.16 . therefore the prelacy , p●iesthood and deaconry of the Church of England is not the ordinary and perpetuall ministery given by Christ to his Church ; but such as the Princes of the Earth may and ought to abolish . Or wors then this : Let prayer be made for Kings and all th●t be in autority , that we may leade a quiet and peaceable life in all godlines and honesty . 1. Tim . 2 2 , Therefore the prelacy , priesthood and deaconry of the Church of England , &c. Or , for feare of turning the Readers stomake with too much of such unsavory matter , to passe by all the rest and take the last onely .

Give the judgement to the King , O Lord ; and they righteousnes to the Kings Sonne . Psalm 72.1 . Therefore the prelacy , priesthood , &c.

What is to make the Scripture a nose of wax , if this be not , and to wring out of it what our selves will ? A man may indeed by this course of dealing condemne easily any people person or profession , out of Scripture so abused , taking for granted , the truth of the crime or fault charged upon them , and producing such Scripture as speaketh in generall of such crime or offence , and with all telling them , that by such Scripture appeareth what they are , and what will become of them , or ought to be done to them . I insist the rather upon this , that others may be admon●shed to heede well these mens quotations ; which they heape up often for a flourish , to delude silly soules with , and make them believe , that they hold nothing , nor require nothing , but what the word of God it selfe doth ; and not to take the places quoted by them upon trust ; but turne to them themselves , and examine the fittnes and forciblenes of them to confirme that that they are produced for .

For , as for this mans vaine idle bible bable here following , that our entrance is popish , our service Antichristian & idolatrous , the manner of performance of it unlawfull , &c. And that all this , many non-conformists of greater note & zeale then ever Maister Bradshaw was , have by reason soundly manifested ; & that he therefore hath shewed the more pride and ignorance in opposing them , &c. What is it indeed but a shamefull begging of the maine matter , and a turning of us over to others for the proofe of that , that he is not able himselfe to make good ? Besides , that it is all nothing to the insufficiency of Maister Iohnsons argument , nor to the justification of this gros abusing charged on him , of the Scriptures alledged by him ; which no more proove us to be papists , then those other doe them to be schismaticks ; and which yet unles they doe , they say nothing for Maister Iohnsons purpose , that any way concerneth us .

As for pride and ignorance ( arrogance , I suppose it should be : but it mattereth not , whether it be , since that pride may well include this to ) charged upon Maister Bradshaw for opposing many non-conformists , and if it be a point of so much pride and arrogancy for one to oppose men of greater note and zeale then himselfe , I will not say Maister Can hath well merited his own censure , by opposing Maister Bradshaw especially in such manner as he doth ; but I dare be bolde to say , that Maister Can and his associates may by his owne ground and grant be justly concluded to be deepely tainted with excesse of pride and arrogancy , in not opposing onely , but condemning also as false and Antichristian ministers , so many famous worthys , as no age since the Apostles time , hath in likely hood , afforded theire equalls ; and so many godly martyrs , as have for gods cause constantly and cheerefully embraced fier and fagot ; men that may justly be presumed to be and have ben , of greater note and zeale , than either Maister Can himselfe , or any of his schisme . Or , if , to waive the imputation , they will bee so confident , or impudent rather , as to avow themselves of greater note & zeale than any , or many , of the best of those , whome they thus condemne , ( unles of greater ill note and bitter zeale they shall meane ) so far thereby shall they be from shifting of the censure , that they shall by such fond profession manifestly bewray a far further degree of extreame selfe conceite , the worst sort of pride that may be . Let not therefore either Maister Can himselfe , or his complices hereafter blame us , if we take them for a company of exceeding proud arrogant persons , and accordingly speake of them , when occasion requireth ; Maister Can theire pastor having given us good ground here so to speake , & so to thinke .

But passe we to Maister Iohnsons third Argument .

Fr. Iohnson .

The office of pastors and teachers ordained by Christ in his Testament , are such as did or could stand with the offices of the Apostles , Prophets and Evangelists .

But the offices of the Prelates , Priests and Deacons of the Church of England are not such , as did or could stand with or under the offices of Apostles , Prophets and Evangelists : which if any deny , let him shew the contrary by the Scriptures .

Therefore they are not the pastors & teachers ordained by Ghrist in his new Testament .

W . Brads●aw .

What a shamelesse man is this to affirme , That our ministery neither did nor could stand with the offices of the Apostles , &c. and for proofe thereof bid us , if we deny it , shew the contrary by Scriptures ? Doth not the burden of prooving , by the very Law of common reason lie upon the accuser ? If I should in like manner reproach his ministery , and say , that it is a ministery that standeth upon forcery witchcraft and conjuration , and for proofe thereof , bid him , if he deny it , shew the contrary by Scripture , where I not worthy at least to be laughed out of the Schooles ? This is a sufficient justification of our ministery , that such malitious adversarys thereof , who would seeme so expert in the Scriptures , are no better able by Scripture to proove theire unchristian accusation .

But this fond foppery of Maister Iohnson , Maister Can taketh notice of ; tho' it concerned him so to have done ; the rather , for that he exacteth the same of Maister Bradshaw himselfe , and taxeth him for not doeing that in his booke , tho' not belonging to his part , that Maister Iohnson here requireth pag . 217 , But let us see Maister Iohnsons proofes of his Assumption .

Fr. Iohnson .

1. Light hath no fellowship with darknes ; nor Christ with Antichrist .

W . Bradshaw

It is true , that light hath no fellowship with darkenes , nor Christ with Antichrist . Yet there is no light in men in this life , but it is mingled with some darknes ; and the best Christians that are , or ever have ben since the Apostles times , may be infected with some points of Antichristianisme . Many of the late martyrs since the revealing of Antichrist , were worthy lights , and renowned Christians , and yet the light of many of them was mingled with more darknes , and theire Christianity with more Antichristianisme , then can be found in our ministery .

Fr. Iohnson .

2. Suppose the Apostles were alive in theire persons , and were in England , it were worth the knowing , whether they and the ordinances given by them , should give place to the Prelates and theire Canons ; and whether they should be suffered to preach , &c. without subscribing and conforming . Theire Canons urge all upon paine of excommunication ipso facto .

W . Bradshaw

1. Our Bishops have as good reason to make the like supposition against him , & as much worthy the inquiry that were , if the Apostles were alive now in the●re own persons where he liveth , and should professe the Church-assemblies in England to be true Churches , and theire ministery in generall to be a Lawfull ministery , and theire worship for substance to be a true worship , whether Maister Iohns●n and his Cnurch would suffer them to be so much as private members of theire society , much more to preach , &c.

2. Though our Bish●ps should be herein so impious , as to advance in such a manner , theire owne autority and ordinances above the Apostles : yet what is that to proove that the priesthood & deaconry of the ministers of our Church-assemblies , ( who many of them in these points are meere patients , and esteeme of these things as burdens ) cannot stand with the offices of Apostles , &c. doth Maister Iohnson think that none of our ministers in England , would suffer the Apostles to preach in theire cures , without wearing a Surplice , if they might have theire owne wills ? or should this any whit derogate from theire ministery , that the Bishops therein would not suffer them to have theire will ?

3. It is besides the present question , and a needlesse thing to spend time in justifying the Canons herein . If the Bishops therein have gone too farre , it may seeme to be the fault of the persons rather than of the prelacy it selfe : & therefore to make and urge such Canons and traditions as are aforesaid , doth not proove , but that for all that the prelacy in and of it selfe , might stand well enough with the offices of the Apostles , &c. for those offices may of themselves , ( if there be no other impediment ) stand well one with an other , which in the actions thereof doe not ( but by accident onely ) one overthrow and oppugne the other .

Now to all this Maister Can returneth us never a wise word , nay giveth us neither good nor bad , save to the very last alone : that he cannot thinke , that Maister Bradshaw speaketh in earnest ; That the prelacy in and of it selfe may stand well enough with the offices of the Apostles , &c. ( taking no notice withall of his reason annexed thereunto ) and that some other non-conformists are herein of an other minde . And this he flourishes a little over with a story of Lycurgus , reported in cutting down a vine to have killed his own Sonne , and cutt his own shins : meane while little regarding to save the shins and the sinews of his brother Iohnsons argument , which he had undertaken to shelter and savegard from such damage ; not helping him with any one word to avoyd or ward of that maine exception ; that all here spoken of the prelacy helps no whit to proove that which is principally to be prooved , to wit , that the priesthood and deaconry of our Church-ass●mblys can not stand under the offices of the Apostles , &c. But suffering it to be wholly thereby ●ewed down to the very ground .

Fr. Ihonson .

The offices of true pastors and teachers are by the ordinance of Christ set in the Church , and imployd in the ministery of the word , Sacraments and Church government , so as they may not with their Ecclesiasticall functions receave civill offices & callings , nor take upon them princely titles & dignitys . Eph. 4.11 . 1. Pet . 5.1 . Rom. 12.2 , 4. Luke 12.14 . and 22.25 . 1. Cor . 12.5 , 8. 1. Tim . 4.13 , 15 , 16. 2. Tim . 2.4 .

But the offices of Prelates , Priests and Deacons of the Church of England are not so , but by theire own constitution are set in the Church , and imployd in the ministery , so as they may allso receave civill offices and callings , as to be justices of peace , &c.

Therefore they are not true pastors and teachers .

W . Bradshaw

There are 4. tearmes in this syllogisme : the grosse sophistry whereof may appeare by the explanation thereof in other words .

True past●rs and teachers may not ( vizt . by Gods Law ) take upon them civ●ll offices .

The ministers of England , may ( to wit by mans Law take upon them civill offices .

Therefore they are not true pastors and teachers .

This is the effect of this argument , and who is so blinde , but he may see the fallacy thereof ? And it is as though we should reason in the like manner against their m●niste●y thus :

True p●stors and teachers may not be Drunkards , Anabapt sts . Familists .

The min●sters of the Separat●on at Amsterdam may be Drunkards , Anabaptists , Famil●sts

Therefore they are not true p●stors and teachers .

This As●umption is as true as the former . For the same kinde of autority that perm●tt●th our min sters to be civill magistrates , doth permit them to be drunkards , &c. the gove●m●nt under which they live permitteth the one to more , then our State doth the other .

But I answere more particularly

1. That by the same Law , that our ministers may take upon them civill magistracy , any true pastors and teachers may take upon them the same autority . And by the same Law that true pastors and teachers may not take civill autority upon them , our ministers may not take the same upon them .

2. All our ministers may not ( no , not by the Laws of our State ) take upon thē civill autority , but such onely as are called specially thereunto by the favour and grace of the civill magistrate ; not as they are prelates , priests or deacons , or by vertue of those functions ; but in respect of other qualifications . Neither are they forced by any Law to adjoyne any such autority to theire ministery , but permitted onely . But what if by the Laws of men ministers might be murtheres , adulteres , theeves , &c. should theire Laws change theire nature of theire ministery ? what ? of theire ministery , that deny unto themselves that licence ? would it not rather the more justify theire ministery , when in conscience of Gods Law they shall forbeare that , which flesh and bloud , and humane Laws would permit unto them ?

3. Suppose not onely , that it is unlawfull for any true pastors and teachers to be civill magistrates ; but also , that by our Laws , all our ministers were foreced thereunto , and that by vertue of theire ministery ; will it thence follow , that for this cause , they are not true pastors and teachers ? may not true pastors and teachers , in theire weakenes , ignorance and infirmity , ( the Laws of the State requiring the same , ) admitt of some kinde of office or autority forbidden them ; but they must needes thereupon cease to be true pastors and teachers ? doth the admitting of every unlawfull thing change the nature of the ministery , & make it either no ministery , or a ministery of an other kinde ?

To all this Maister Can , who saith that Maister Bradshaw answers nothing , but with ifs , and ands , and I says , replieth nothing at all pertinent to the maine matter in hand , or to the justification of Maister Iohnsons argument but like the Aegyptian dogs , as they runne along by the banks of Nilus , taking here a snatch and there a snatch , as his owne fancy serveth , or the toy taketh him in the head , as things least pertinent letteth all that passe , wherein the weight of the poynt lyeth ; onely taketh up Maister Bradshaw after his wonted arrogant straine , & falling foule on the man , let s the matter shift for it selfe .

1. He chargeth him with corrupt shifts , used by him to justify civill offices in Ecclesiasticall persons ; whereas other non-conformists affirm the thing to be utterly unlawfull . Which is nothing indeed but a grosse untruth , and more then a single one . For neither doth Maister Bradshaw justify civill offices in such by ought that he here saith ; nor doth he use any corrupt shifts , to justify ought that he doth say .

2 He chargeth him to say , that the same autority , that permitteth our ministers to be civill magistrates , doth permitt them to be drunckards , &c. And to slander therein the state .

A gros untruth , as plaine and evident , yer more palpable then the former . For Maister Bradshaw saith no such thing of our State , or our min●sters , but of the ministers of the separation of Amsterdam , and of the State under which they live . That the same kinde of autority ( to wit , the civill magistracy ) that permitteth our ministers to be civill magistrates , doth permit them ( that is , the ministers of the Separation at Amsterdam before spoken of , as any eye may soone see in the context before related ) to be drunckards , &c. ( that is , Anabaptists and Familists , as before he had said ) the government , under which they live , permitteth the one no more , then our State doth the other . Nor is this any untruth , nor any slander to our State ; which permitts not these enormitys in any either ministers or others , but by Laws to that purpose enacted inhibiteth them in all , howsoever in matter of execution thereof default may be : whereas it is not so with the State , where Maister Can it seemes , liveth . For Maister Can may be , & Maister Iohnson might have ben as well a Drunckard , or a Familist , or an Anabaptist , as a Separatist , or a minister to a separating congregation : the civill magistrate permitting as well the one as the other . Maister Can therefore , either knoweth , not what he opposeth , which is the note of a brainsicke idiote , or regardeth not , what untruth he speaketh against his own knowledge , which is a far worse matter , a note of an unsound and a cauterized conscience .

3. He chargeth him , to put the lye upon the writings of his brethren , in saying , that by the same Law , that theire min●sters may take upon them civil magistracy , any true pastors may take upon them the same autority . ] To omit the habituated broadenes of this foul-mouthed fellowes language , in saying , he puttes the lye upon them , as if every one that manifesteth his opinion in any point to be contrary to the judgement of some other , must needes in so doeing put the lye upon him , from whome he so manifesteth his dissent . To let this passe , I say , had this blinde buzzard a right understood , as he might easily have done , ( if he had either his eyes in his head , or so much witt in his brain ) either by looking back to the Assumption of Maister Iohnsons Syllogisme , as Maister Bradshaw had layd it open ; The min●sters of England may ( to wit by mans Law ) tak● upon them civill offices : or foreward to the very next ensuing words ; And by the same Law that true pastors and teachers may not take upon th●m civill autority , our ministers may not take the s●me upon them : He might soone have seen that Maister Bradshaw saith nothing at all contrary unto that which they say , whome he saith that he giveth the lye unto . And I may well therefore retort and returne his owne words here upon him ; what a shameles man is this to affirme such untruths ? yea and more then that , to charge another with shamelesnes in this kinde there , where he scarce speakes a true word himselfe , but lyeth notoriously and palpably , as the very booke it selfe tolde him , that he had then before his eyes ; in fathering those untruths that he speaketh of , upon him whome he so censureth ?

4 Having nothing to speake to the point , he giveth a snatch at those words , Answ . 2. By the favour and grace of the civill magistrate . Whether they be , saith he , civill magistrates by the favour and grace of Princes , as he speakes , or any other way , it is nothing to the purpose , seeing the thing it selfe is every way and altogether unlawfull .

To let passe his peremtory sentence , that may not be controled ; and yet , I beleeve , would make him sweate soundly , ere he could substantially proove it : It is little indeed to the purpose , to ought that he here saith ; who , as the manner of those is that have undertaken an ill cause , loves to be dealing rather with any thing that comes in the way , than with the matter that he hath undertaken ; yet it maketh to the purpose of Maister Iohnsons argument ; for it sheweth , that neither all our ministers either are , or may be such , as is here pretended : & the exception therefore to lie , were it never so sound , in comparision but against few .

5. He concludeth all with this , which is all returns to Maister Bradshaws last exception ; When they have prooved themselves to be true pastors and teachers , then there will be a fit place to shew whether the admitting of a civill office doe change the nature of a Church ministery , or no .

Had any man , thinke we , ever to doe with a more senseles dolt then this is ; that regards not what he saith , so he may seeme to say somewhat ? Maister Iohnson whome he undertakes to defend , would proove our ministers therefore to be no true pastors and teachers , because they may by the Law of our Land be civill Magistrates . To make this good , it must of necessity be avowed , that the admitting of a civill magistracy doth change the nature of a Church ministery , yea doth overthrow the very truth and essence of it . Yet this man biddeth his adversarys , first proove theire ministers to be true pastors and teachers , & then they will come to dispute that point , which is or should be the maine pith and heart of theire argument , and being pull'd out of it , leaveth it a sory barke without body . Can we possibly thinke we , make this man to see his own senselesnes ? we will assay it , though it be over-tedious , a little for his owne sake , if it may help him to see himselfe . For as for others , if they have but common sence , not forestalled wholly with extreame prejudice , they will easily apprehend it by what hath ben said . Suppose a man should reason against Maister Can as Mr. Iohnson doth against us . He that may by the Laws of the State he liveth under , be a Familist , is no true minister of Christ . But so may Maister Can be , by the Laws of the State he liveth under , Maister Can therefore is no true minister of Christ . If Maister Can in defence of himselfe should deny the proposition , and tell us , that a man may be a true minister of Christ , notwithstanding such permission of the State he liveth under , for that no such permission doth change the nature of a Church-ministery , nor overthrow the Essence of it . And an other in this case , being to reply upon him , should bid him , first proove himselfe a true minister of Christ ; and then he will dispute the question afterward , whither it doe so or no . Would not Maister Can exclaime on such a one as a very dolt indeed , and one that understood not what belonged , I will not say , to Logick , the art of reasoning , but even to reason and common sense it selfe ? which if he might in such case well doe , as there is no doubt but he might , he may easily understand , what might be sayd of himselfe , for his like-dealing in an argument of the very selfe same mould .

Fr. Iohnson .

The ministery of Christian pastors and teachers standeth by the word and ordinance of Christ , so as all Churches under heaven are bound to receave and submitt thereunto .

But the prelacy , priesthood and deaconry of the Church of England , standeth onely by the authority and Law of man ; so as other Churches elswhere neither are , nor neede to be subject thereunto , which even themselves of all sorts have acknowledged . For which see Whitgifts defence in the preface , the answere to the Abstract . pag . 58. the admonition to the Parliamant ; the defence of the Godly ministers ; the demonstration .

Therefore it is not the m●nistery of Christian pastors and teachers .

W . Bradshaw

I deny the Assumption , the ministery of our Church-assemblys of England whether of Prelates , Priests or Deacons , or by what other names soever they be called , for the substance thereof , standeth by the word and ordinance of Christ ; and not onely by the authority and Law of man . And all other true Churches are , and ought to be subject , to the same kinde of ministery , and to no other , that shall in any essentiall point of ministery differ from ours .

If any particular persons among us have ben so unadvised as to grant the Assumption , let them answere for themselves . He hath no more reason to bind us to their opinions , then we to bind him unto whatsoever his predecessors , Brown , Barow and Greenwood have held before him .

Concerning some of the particulars , Dr. Whitgifts words are these : The substance and nature of government must indeed be taken out of the word of God & consisteth in these parts : that the word be truly taught , the Sacraments rightly administred vertue furthered , vice repressed , and the Church kept in quietnes and order . The offices of the Church , whereby this government is wrought , be not namely and particularly expressed in Scripture ▪ but in some points left to the discretion and liberty of the Church , to be disposed according to the State of times , persons and places . The author of the A●●were to the Abstract in the place alledged saith ; That it can not be prooved , that any set and exact particular forme of discipline is recommended to us in the word of God . Now are either of these to affirme ; That the ministery of our Church-assemblys standeth onely by the Laws and authority of man ? Hath Maister Iohnson any shame left in his face , that thus shamefully abuseth the names of learned and reverend men , so directly contrary to theire words and meaning ? Is there not cause to suspect , that the other authors are in like manner abused ; and that for the better hiding of his fraud , he forbeareth to quote any particular places ? Being therefore convinced of depravation in the places particularly quoted , we may presume , that if the other places had been more pertinent , he would have given us some particular directions also , for the finding of them . And the rather for that he can not be ignorant , that those , whom specially he fighteth against in these arguments , doe rely upon the judgement of the Authors following , more then of the former .

Now to this Maister Can affordeth nothing that may soundly confirme the thing denyed , nor assayeth to cleere Maister Iohnsons credite from abuse of the Authors quoted by him for the justification of his Assumption ; relying wholly on what some men may say : which if it were all true , as you see it in part evidently prooved false , yet were no sufficient proofe . Onely saith , that Maister Bradshaw here casts his brethren of . pag . 224. 225.

But this is one of Maister Cans last refuges and forlorne hopes , to tell us that others have soundly prooved that before , that neither Maister Iohnson hath prooved , nor Maister Can himselfe can ever make good . It seemes the man groweth weary , and is almost tired out with his worke , when he is faine to fill up whole pages with such stuff as this is .

Fr. Iohnson .

The offices of pastors and teachers , which Christ hath appointed , are such , as they , which have them , must be members of a true visible Chu●ch , and bound to one particular congregation for the ministery and government thereof .

But the offices of Prelates , Priests and Deacons of the Church of England are such , as those that have them , neede not be , neither in theire State can be , members of a true visible Church , but of a false ; neither are bound to one particular congregation for the ministery and government thereof ; but the Prelates are over whole Provinces and Diocesses ; and other inferiour priests may have in that State plurality of benefices and Ecclesiasticall cares , &c. which none can deny .

Therefore they are not the pastors & teachers , which Christ hath appointed .

W . Bradshaw

Tho' some parts of the proposition be disputable ; yet because others besides the Separation do holde the whole for truth ; I will leave it in medio .

The Assumption is false : Especially if it be understood ( as it ought to be ) of the offices of such Prelates , Priests and Deacons , as are ministers of our Church-assemblys . For most of those , which have such offices , are & are bound to be members of true visible Churches , and cannot in theire estate ( they being in all points answerable to the Laws ) be members of a false Church . They are all ( such excepted , as have speciall dispensations ) bound to one particular congregation : and may not by Law , have more cures then one ; but admitting of a second the first is void . Yea the Prelates themselves , though in regard of theire Prelaticall office , they are Governeurs of whole Provinces and Diocesses ; yet it is possible for them notwithstanding , to be members in theire estate , of a true visible Church , and be bound ( as are the Prelates of Scotland ) to one particular congregation , for the speciall ministery and government thereof .

But what man , except he were halfe frantick , would reason thus : Our ministers may be Pluralists ; therefore they neither are , nor can be true pastors and teachers ? Is not this rather one of the honours , then blemishes of our ministers , that they may be Pluralists , and yet are not ? If by our Laws theire own assemblys were established , if by the same Laws theire pastors and teachers might he non-residents , or pluralists , or worse , would they thinke themselves ever the worse for this ? would they not rather thinke themselves the better , that they are not so bad , as by mans Laws they might be ?

Here Mr. Can flatly giveth over replying , leaving Mr. Iohnson to shift as well as he can for himselfe ; and falleth to mooving of many questions , which tho' they were all resolved , yea and resolved as he would have them , would not all helpe to make Mr. Iohnsons halting argument stand upright .

1. Whereas Maister Bradshaw , not so peremptory as Maister Can where doubt may well be of ought , leaveth the proposition , though questionable for some part of it , in medio ; Maister Can makes pag . 226. a quere , whether the ministery of such Priests , as have no particular place to serve in be unlawfull ? supposing Mr. Bradshaw to imply as much , tho' there be nothing spoken by him that doth imply it ; nor , were it granted , did it any whit help M. Is. cause , which is to proove the ministers of our Church-assemblys , to be no true pastors and teachers ; and that our Church-assemblys are generally to be severed from .

2. Because Maister Bradshaw avoweth the assumption to be false , being understood , as it ought , of such Prelates , Priests and Deacons , as are min●st●rs 〈◇〉 Church-assemblys , seeing that the most of such are , and are bound to be mem ● of a true visible Church : he mooveth thereupon a 2. quere : Whether such as 〈◇〉 not by Law bound to be such , be true pastors or no ? Which againe whether it 〈◇〉 either said or denyed , Maister Iohnsons cause , and Maister Cans likewise is ●o● thereby supported ; since that it stands them upon , to make good the generall . And this is therefore but to trifle and wast inke and paper to no purpose , in regard of that taske that these men have undertaken ; the matter of the quere being by Mr. Can here most falsly affirmed to be the main point in question . Which yet if it were , it were either Maister Iohnsons or Mr. Cans part to determine , & so to argue upon it . But an Asse , they say , when he groweth weary of his way , Asel●● 〈…〉 cum ●●su● 〈◇〉 rit , 〈…〉 verticu●● . 〈◇〉 ●●ron . ad Caetà . will be ready to turn in at every gate , or by land , that he meeteth with . Suppose some one of us , undertaking to proove Mr. Cans congregation to be ( as they may justly be deemed ) a company of Schismaticks ; and having thus endeavoured to evince it . Those that have rent themselves off from the Church-assemblys in England , are Schismaticks . But Maister Cans congregation at Amsterdam consists of such as have rent themselves off , from the visible Churches of Christ in England , &c. Mr. Can , or some other in defence of his congregation , should answere , they deny the Assumption : For that the most of his congregation were never member of any visible Church in England : Should the opponent hereupon reply nothing , but moove a quere to Mr. Can . What he thinks then of all those that have been sometime members of some Church-assembly in England ; as if Maister Can implyed by his answere , that such indeed were Schismaticks . Might he not be justly laughed at for his labour ? and yet just such , and no other , is Mr. Cans manner of reply here .

3. Whereas Maister Bradshaw addeth , that such as were before spoken off , cannot in theire estate ( they being in all points answerable to the Laws● be members of a fae Church ; he mooveth a 3. quere ; What if they be not in all points answerable to the Law , are they then members of a false Church ? Indeed either his words cary such a meaning , or to me they seeme nonsense . A most senseles inference . ]

If a man had to deale with one that understood Schole-learning , he might tell him , that , A non posse in subjecto , ad esse in opposito , non sequitur argumentum . But having to deale with Maister Can , to whome every one speakes non-sense , that speaketh not senselesly like himselfe , let us talke a little with him , though it be somewhat tedious in his owne language . If a man then should say ; None of those that laugh at Maister Cans absurditys , can be Asses ; because Asinus non est animal risible ; his words must needs either cary such a meaning , that all that doe not laugh at them , are Asses : or else ( to Maister Cans sense ) they seeme to speake non-sense . And this s just Maister Cans inference from Maister Bradshaws words , and his wise censure past upon them .

4. Whereas Maister Bradshaw saith ; That all ministers among us , such excepted , as have speciall dispensation , are bound ( to wit , by the Laws of our land ) to one particular congregation ; and may not by Law have more cures then one ; here Maister Can comes in with an other quere ; Have not some in the Church of Rome dispensations to have more Cures then one ? yes surely . Now doe these speciall dispensations make the act Lawfull ? such an inference Mr. Bradshaws words have , or else the man talkes he knowes not what . ] Did any man living ever heare a man rave in this manner , unles he were utterly distracted ? Sure if Mr. Can knew what he talked , he would never talke in this mad manner . The Lawfullnes of pluralitys , or the unlawfullnes of them is no point here in question . Howbeit , that which Maister Can would inferre from Maister Bradshaws words , doth all well follow from them , as if one should say : He that shall say , an English man can not without danger of the Law be a Schismatick , unles he get him to Amsterdam doeth import that getting thither makes his action Lawfull or else the man talkes he knowes not what . Or thus ; He that saith , a man can not in England , without danger of Law , except he keepe himselfe close , be a Familist , or a Seperatist ; doth thereby import , that a man , if he keepe himselfe close , may Lawfully be either , or else he talkes he knowes not what . These are just the same for frame and force of consequence with Maister Cans inference here : which if they be not mad ones , in any reasonable mans judgement , let me be deemed a mad man .

The residue here adjoyn'd is all stuff of the same making . He saith . Maister Bradshaw taketh it for granted , that theire Churches are true ; but brings no proofe for it . As if Maister Bradshaw were to proove them true , and not Mr. Iohnson rather to proove them false ; which till he hath done they are so to be esteemed . The prisoner accused is not to be condemned as guilty , till good evidence be given in against him : nor is he to proove himselfe guiltles , but to answere in his own defence against such evidence as his accusers shall bring against him to proove him guilty .

And thus you see how worthily Maister Gan hath acquitted himselfe for this sixt Argument : Let us see if he have any better for the seventh .

Fr. Iohnson .

The offices , condition and government of Prelates , Priests and Deacons , are such as doe many ways impaire the authority , supremacy and dignity of Kings , and all other magistrates , both in civill and Ecclesiasticall causes . For the Prelates will have theire presence , voice and authority to be at Parliaments for enacting of Laws and Statutes for the common wealth : They are Rulers of whole Provinces and Diocesses in the Ecclesiasticall causes thereof . In civill State and dignity some of them are above all , and all of them above some of the nobles , justices and other Magistrates of the Land . Themselves , theire Courts and officers handle and determine sundry civill causes and affaires , appertaining to the magistracy . They inflict civill mulcts and punishments ; in theire forbidden times they give licence to marry : the beneficed Priests doe sweare canonicall obedience to the Prelates . All the Priests and Deacons are exempt from the Magistrates jurisdiction in divers things appertaining unto them , & answerable onely or chiefly to the Prelates and theire officers .

Therefore they are not the onely pastors and teachers spoken of Ephes . 4.11 .

W . Brads●aw .

The Assumption is false : neither doe the instances proove the same

1. The Prelates claime their voices in Parliaments , not as divine ordinances appertaining to their Prelateship ; but as an honour annexed to the same by the civill Magistrate .

2. Theire authority in causes Ecclesiasticall over Provinces , &c. is either such as the civill magistrate himselfe may execute , and administer in his owne person , if he please ; or such as is not for them , as they are magistrates , to execute . The first sort they administer , onely by vertue of the Magistrates own eommission , and therein they can not impaire either his dignity or supremacy ; much lesse in the other part of theire authority , which belongeth not to the Magistrates themselves to execute , especially when they use it not neither without theire consent , licence and approbation .

3. That all are above some , and some above all of the nobles , justices , &c. is a free and voluntary honour granted unto them by the civill Magistrate , and held in tenure from him , and not claimed , as I thinke , as belonging to their Episcopall function , by divine right .

4. Theire Courts determine no other civill causes , than the civill Magistrate and his Laws doe permitt , or if they doe , the fault is in the persons , and not in the Prelateship . Further , they inflict civill punishments , give licencys ▪ exact oaths , &c. by authority from the Magistrate , whose Substitutes therein they are . And therefore the Prelates neither in this , nor in any of the former instances , can be said to impaire the dignity , authority , or supremacy of the civill Magistrate ; when herein they doe all things in and by the protection of his authority . Much lesse can other inferiour ministers , who have no dealing in the aforesaid matters .

Lastly if all our ministers be exempt from the Magistrates jurisdiction , in some things appertaining unto them ( but wherein I know not ) this very exemption it selfe , is an act of the Magistrates jurisdiction , and depends onely upon his pleasure : and how can it then any wayes impaire the same ?

The answere to this Argument Maister Can thus turns over ; that the matter is not much , whether the government , which the Bishops exercise in civill and Ecclesiasticall cases , doe impaire the dignity , autority , or supremacy of the civill Magistrate , seeing the same is unlawfull and Antichristian ; as , saith he , we have before prooved . Onely flieth in the Answerers face , taxing him , with notorious boldnes , in denying that ( though he give good reasons for it , unto which he returneth no● a word ) that the non-conformists confidently affirme ; and with daubing up of vile things , as being a man , that cares not how he loose the peace of conscience , so he may gaine a supposed victory , and that he can have a small comfort in this writings .

And this is the usuall manner of Maister Cans confutation ; the very relation whereof is refutation sufficient , and enough to shew any indifferent and intelligent Reader , what a manner of disputant this man is .

W . Bradshaw

Hitherto Maister Iohnson hath dealt by Syllogismes , such as they are : now for a conclusion of this first argument , he shootes at rovers , as followeth .

Fr. Iohnson .

To this end divers other reasons might be alleadged . For example , if they say , that Arch-Bishops have the Pastors office , then they have but two , if Lord-Bishops , then but 26. & what office then have the Arch-Bishops among them ? if the other Priests , then what office have the Arch-Bishops and Bishops ? seeing God hath ordained no higher ordinary Ecclesiasticall office ; as some of themselves acknowledge . If they say , the Deacons have the Pastors office , the same absurdity followeth , as in the former : besides that the workes of the Deacons office are opposed to the worke of the ministery , Act. 6.2 . with Eph. 4.11 . Rom. 12.8 . if they should say , they have the teachers office , it would be known , which of theire officers have it among them , and to whome they are adjoyned for the worke of the ministery , as teachers are to pastors ; and what office the rest have ; whome they account to have the teachers office ; and whether the teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11 . must first be Deacons , and then Priests and promise obedience to the Prelates ; and that also as to theire ordinaries , and be silenced and deposed at theire pleasures .

W. Bradshaw

Here he thinkes he hath knit such a Gordian knott , as cannot be untyed , without a sword or a bill . But the simplicity of the man is herein to be laughed at .

For 1. Though some should say , that either our Arch-Bishops , or Bishops have the Pastors office , yet therein they doe not exclude the other ministers , from that which is the substance and effect of that office , though they should from the name : no nor from the name neither . But should therein , onely make degrees of Pastors : vizt . of Arch-Bishops over Bishops , and theire Diocesses , of Bishops over Ministers and theire Churches , and of ministers over their own congregations . Leaving unto them ( notwithstanding the superiority over the other Pastors ) that main and substanciall office of the pastor , which is enough to define and denominate a Pastor . And therefore they may make such Pastors as are over whole Provinces , but two ; and such as are over whole Diocesses but 26. And yet holde also without any absurdity ; that there are also as many Pastors besides , as there are ministers of particular congregations . And though it should be granted , that herein they were deceaved in making Provinciall and Diocessan Pastors ; yet the sorting of unproper Pastors with true , or the subjecting of true Pastors unto other sorts of Pastors , doth not necessarily make the true Pastors fal●e ; so long as under them they performe the maine and substantiall dutys of true Pastors ; which all the ministers of our Church-assemblys doe , or by the Laws ought to doe .

2. If any holde , that the ministers of particular congregations onely are Pastors , then they may , without any absurdity holde , that the Arch-Bishops & Bishops are generall commissioners under the King to see that the Pastors doe theire dutys ; and in that regard , may also metaphorically , and in an other sense be called Pastors ; as Princes themselves are so called in good and approoved Authors . And what absurdity can follow upon this ? Or what if they , which h●lde the ministers of particular congregations to be Pastors , could not tell what to make of the office of Arch-Bishops and Bishops , what 's that to the purpose ? Are not our ministers and teachers therefore Pastors , because they which shall holde them to be so , can not tell what to make of the calling of Arch-Bishops & Bishops .

2. Though this should be yeelded unto him , that all pastors are equall , & that the pastors of particular congregations , are the highest ordinary Ecclesiasticall officers : yet should this make nothing to the confirming of this conceit that our ministers are not therefore true pastors & teachers , because then Arch-Bishops and Bishops should be encluded . For this doth not exclude them , from being commissioners , and visitors in causes Ecclesiasticall , under the King , over the Pastors and Churches of such and such Provinces and Diocesses ; which is to give them theire principall honour and due .

For answere to this , Maister Can tells us , that Maister Bradshaw in these pages sheweth himselfe a miserable informer and setler of the conscience : for his counsell is much to this effect . So a man holde something , it is no matter what it be , nor how ungroundedly taken up .

But by his leave , here is no such matter ; nor doth Maister Bradshaw either avow or imply any such thing : tho' in some cases it is not necessary , that a man bolde ought ; the matter either not concerning him to know , or his weake brain being not able to apprehend grounds sufficient to build a judgement on either way . And in some points againe , men may be of divers mindes ; yea it cannot but so be , while they know but in part : the matter controverred being not so cleare . But Maister Bradshaw sheweth onely hereby , the weakenes of Maister Iohnsons suppo●ed indissoluble , dilemma , or his double-horned argument ; that whether a man take it by the one horne or the other ( as some may be herein of one minde , some of an other ; and whether they be of this or that minde , they may put Maister Iohnson to proove either ) he may easily overturn it . For that no such absurdity , as Mr. Iohnson would inferre , doth ensue necessarily , on the averring it of either part .

But hereupon Mr. Cans answere to Mr. Bradshaws ifs and what s particularly , as he saith .

1. What if some , saith he , shall say that our Arch-Bishops and Bishops have the Pastors office ? Answere . Then they shall speake untruely or you your selves beare false witnes against them in affirming that they are not pastors and teachers , neither any true ministers at all in the Church of God .

Yea but Ma●ster Can remember your selfe , that the question is not , what verdict your selfe , or I know not , who will passe in this kinde : but whether this granted would inferre , that the whole land hath no more pastors th n they ; and this supposed , exclude all other ministers among us , from that which is the effect and substance of the office . So that Maister Can , who seemeth better acquainted with loose pratling , then with Scholarlike disputing , may well set himselfe down , and suspend his sentence , till he be called to tell us his minde , that no man here asketh him in this matter : Or , if he will doe that which the person of a replier , which he hath undertaken , exacteth of him ; an●were the question indeed by Maister Bradshaw propounded , whether that will hence follow , that his fellow : I affirms .

His answeres to the other querys , being of the same stamp , that this is , I willingly could let p●sse , ( for to what end should I further wast time and blot paper with matter wholly impertinent ? ) as that to h●l●e the Bishops pastors metaphorically so tearmed , as commissioners and visitors of the ministers of particular congregations , in causes Ecclesiasticall under the King is contrary to theire Law , and directly against theire profession a d practise : and the magistrate hath no autority from God to set up such officers : and that to holde the ministers of our particular co●gregations to be Pastors ▪ there is no reason for it . Because they have no true calling unto the office , nor doe perform the substantiall dutys thereof . Whereas the question here , is not , whither these be so or no ; but whether upon the supposition of them so to be ; such absurditys , as Mr. Iohnson avoweth , will ensue . Onely I relate them , that it may be seene what they are , & how impertinent to the point in question at present .

After these answeres of his thus given to questions not asked ; he returneth to the wonted flowers of his railing Rhetorick , tearming all that Maister Bradshaw hath here spoken , base stuff , sillie and childish words , worthy to be laughed at , having neither rime nor good reason : in his peremptory manner againe censureth Mr. Bradshaw for one that sinned herein fearefully against his knowledge and conscience : and demandeth , is not here wit to dispute with ifs and thoes ?

It is true indeed , a man that intends not to distinguish things discrepant , but to confound and jumble alltogether , and to patch together things that have no dependance one upon the other , may dispute without ifs and thoes . But that it should be deemed a fault in dispute , to use ifs , where the dependance of one thing upon an other is questioned ; and thoes , where things discrepant are to be severed and distinguished , was a thing never heard in the art of reasoning before . And when Maister Can therefore hath framed us a new Logick of his own , we shall learne , it may be , if we like it at least , to amend this fault . Meane while let him fasten the forng of his censure herein upon his brother Iohnson in the first place , who disputes all with ifs , before he turne it upon Maister Bradshaw who doth but follow him therein .

W . Bradshaw

4. Concerning the teachers office ( not to contend needlesly with him about the nature and quality thereof , but to suppose a teacher in that sense , which he meaneth ) This may reasonably be held : That some of our ministers , whether Priests or Deacons so called , or whether parsons , vicars , curates or stipendarys , are pastors , and some teachers . That so many of them as have and use the gift , not onely of doctrine and instruction , but of Exhortation , are pastors ; that those which want the power of Exhortation , and yet have and use the gift of instruction and doctrine , are such teachers as he meaneth . And therefore , herein also , if it should be yeelded unto him , that it were fit that every congregation should have both these offices : and that the teacher should be the pastors Assistant , yet it doth not follow , but that in want of sufficient men , for both theire offices in every congregation , some may enjoy one and some an other . For if the Churches of theire own way and constitution , may be without both pastors & teachers , & that for a long time , till men may be chosen unto that office ; why may not a Church much more in the like necessity , retaine a pastor without a teacher ; or a teacher without a pastor ? can he proove by any colour out of Gods word that one cannot be called unto , and execute the office of a pastor , untill he have a teacher to assist him ? or that he cannot execute the office of a Doctor , except he doe it as an actuall assistant of some pastor ? if not , then is this a most frivolous demand ; when he askes , to whome our teachers are adjoyned , for the worke of theire ministery : neither doe the places he quoteth ( Eph. 4.11 . Rom. 12.7 . ) proove any such matter .

To this is nothing replyed , but that Maister Bradshaw telleth us that some of the●re pri●sts are pastors , and some teachers ; but Maister Can hath prooved the contrary ; and therefore both now and hereafter doth purpose to let his idle repetitions passe . And is not this a Scholarlike kinde of confuting .

Onely he would be informed , whether dumb ministers be pastors or teachers : which he may be then answered , when he hath shewed , what reference it hath to the argument , that we now have in hand . For it is as if one should say : Vnles you determine whether dumb ministers be pastors or teachers , you cannot answere Maister Iohnsons argument , that meddles not with them . Yea adde I might , that it nothing availeth them , in the maine matter , at first propounded . For though it were never determined , whether dumb ministers , are true pastors and teachers . or determined as he would have it , that they are neither of both ; yet how could that justify a generall separarion even from such congregations , where none such are ; but men able , & conscionable in using theire abilitys for the benefit of their people ?

W . Bradshaw

5. As idle and impertinent is that demand , which followeth , whether the teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11 . must first be Deacons , and then Priests , and promise obedience to Prelates and to be silenced , and deposed at theire pleasures . For what if no such matters be required of teachers by Saint Paul , either in that or any other place , doth it thereupon follow , that theire submission to such things , makes them no teachers ? may not magistrates and others also , require some things of teachers , not required by the Apostles , but they must needes thereupon become no teachers ? But what repugnancy is therein this matter , to the office of a teacher ? to be a Deacon in the intent of our Laws , what is it , but ( as himselfe , out of our booke of ordination hath in effect published it ) to reade the Scriptures , and to pray in the Church , to catechise the younger sort , to baptize and to preach , if the Bishop shall thinke him fitt ? what is it to be a Priest or Presbyter in our Law ? hath not himselfe also taught us ? namely , to have autority to preach the word , and to minister the holy Sacraments in the Congregation , where he shall be appointed ? what obedience doe they promise to the Prelates in the intent of the Law , but onely in things that they shall judge honest and Lawfull , and not repugnant to the word of God ? what is it to be silenced and deposed , but to forbeare to minister publikely upon the Magistrates pleasure : for the Bishops pleasure , so farre forth as they proceede according to the Laws is the Magistrates pleasure . Otherwise it is but a personall fault . And wherein , I marvei● doe any of these acts so oppugne the office of a teacher , that they can not stand together ? where doth Paul forbid any of those acts to the teacher ? or if he should , doth every act forbidden to a teacher , make him no teacher ?

Maister Can . 1. To the quere , whether Magistrates may not require something of teachers , not required by the Apostles : he answereth thus ; yes forsooth , But if they require before a man shall be a Teacher , that he enter into the ministery by an unlawfull and popish vocation , and shall execute afterwards the same in an idolatrous manner ; if he also in this doe obey them , he must needes thereupon become no true minister : and such is theire cause by theire own confession . And therefore the question , as he propoundeth it , is deceitfull , & impertinent .

Nay rather , your whole rablement here is idle and impertinent . For what is all this to that , that Maister Iohnson propoundeth , of being Deacons first , and then Priests ? to be a Deacon with us , being as Maister Iohnson acknowledgeth , to reade the Scriptures , and to pray in the Church , to Catechise th● younger sort , to baptise and to preach , if the Bishop shall thinke him fit . For , as for that which he telleth us , of our own confession ; Neither is Maister Bradshaw nor any other , bound to admitt ought avowed by others , be they non-conformists , or w●at they will ; more then Maister Can or Maister Iohnson to admitt , what Maister Smith and his abetters say of theire triformed presbytery ; allbeit they be Separatists as well as themselves .

2. To these words of Maister Bradshaw , ( wherein Maister Can tells us that he excuseth the Priests , which obey the Bishops ) what obedience doe they promise to Prelates , but onely in things that they shall judge honest and Lawfull , and not repugnant to the word of God ? If this manner of arguing , saith he , ( answering , he should say , if he understood but the very tearmes of dispute ) what corruptions so abominable , but may get countenance ? under such pretense any hereticke may maintaine the grossest errors , which he holdes and practiseth .

A man may truely say here , in Maister Cans own words , is this wit or sense either , in arguing with such an if as this is ? For how doth , yea how can Mr. Can with all the wit he hath , ( which I confesse is not over much ) make good this inference ? One would thinke , that such a grosse and abominable imputation , so peremptorily charged , should have been strongly backed , and clearely made good , whereas here is never a title , that may helpe to give any colour at all unto it ; much lesse to shew the necessity of any such inference . And indeed , who is so senseles or void of ordinary apprehension , that will take this for a sound consequence ; Maister Bradshaw saith , that the ministers of the Churches in England promise not obedience to the Prelates but in things onely that they shall judge honest and Lawfull , and not contrary to Gods word . Ergo any Arrian , or Familist , or Papist , may under the like pretense maintaine , that Christ is not God , or tooke not flesh of the Virgin Mary , or is made of a peece of breade , &c.

His office was to have disprooved that which Maister Bradshaw said , & not to foame out his owne filth and folly in such froathy and unsavory stuff as this is .

And here he falleth againe , as his wont is , into an invective against Maister Bradshaw as justifying these practises in this worke of his ▪ that elswhere he condemnes , of which before hath been spoken , and which till Maister Can shall by sound proofe make good , he is not therefore the more guilty of , then the man in the moone , but Maister Can standeth justly charged with a calumnie , worthily deem'd most unjust .

Fr. Iohnson .

Whereas some alledge , that the people were to heare the Scribes and Phariseys sitting in Moses chaire . It is to be noted that they were Levites & Priests , and therefore had the true offices appointed by Moses . This therefore is nothing for a false ministery , such as theires is prooved to be . Further to be a Pharise , was not to have a new kinde of ministery , but to be of a speciall sect among the Iews that pretended more strict observances of the Law , and might be of any tribe . Lastly though they were corrupt yet did they holde , that every true minister must be from heaven : & this have the forward preachers acknowledged as T. C. pag . 83.

W . Bradshaw

Here absurdly and childishly he goes about to answere such an objection , as no body ever made , against any thing contained in the former Argument . This argument onely in generall is used to shew , that some corruptions in ministers and Churches , are not of that nature , that man should therefo e separate from all spirituall communion with them . And where he saith , that this is nothing for any false ministery never ordained of the Lord , such as ours is prooved to be : No man ever brought it to proove any such matter ; but onely to proove , that such corruptions as are in our ministery , ought no more to hinder communion with our ministers , then the corruption in the ministery of the Scribes and Pharisees , did hinder the communion with theire ministery : and that the corruptions in our ministery doe no more argue our ministers to be false ministers , then theire corruptions did argue them to be false ministers . Neither hath he brought any argument , to proove our ministers false ministers , but either such corruptions as the Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of , in as high , if not a higher degree , or in respect of theire names , in that they are called Priests and Deacons . So that if the Scribes and Pharisees were true ministers , notwithstanding theire names , & other corruptions , our ministers cannot be false , in regard of the like names and corruptions .

Further more if to be expounders of the Law , be sufficient to argue theire ministery to be a true ministery , notwithstanding theire names of Scribes and Pharisees , with other vile and grosse corruptions , why may not preaching of the word , and administration of the Sacraments , be sufficient to argue our ministers to be true pastors and teachers , notwithstanding that in the mouth of the Law , they are sometimes called Priests and Deacons . For otherwise in the mouthes of men , even of the Bishops themselves they are not so called ; except sometimes by metaphoricall allusions to the Leviticall Priesthood : but they are usually so called onely by prophane Atheists , or ignorant people , with whome in this point the Separation goeth hand in hand .

2. To be a Pharisee , was not onely ( as he minceth the matter ) to be of a speciall Sect amongst the Jews , that pretended more strict observances of the Law then others ; but allso ( which as it is to be feared , with a fraudulent minde he concealeth ) to joine many humane Traditions , and will worships to the worship & service of God ; ( whereby they are said , by Christ himselfe , in vaine to worship God , and to make the commandements of God of none effect , ) Making more account of , and urging with more severity , the said traditions , then Gods owne Lawes . And in like manner we affirme , that to be a Priest and Deacon in the intent of the Laws ( whatsoever the words may ring to the contrary in some mens eares ) is , at the worst , to be such a kinde of pastor and teacher , as is content over & besides those dutys of the ministery , which Christ requires of them , to yeeld conformity allso to humane traditions , of no worse nature and quality in themselves , then those which the Pharisees used in or about Gods service : wherein to suppose that they sin , yet cannot this theire sin be so repugnant to the ministery of Christ , as that of the Scribes and Pharisees ( which they are forced to acknowledge to be a true ministery ) in that they were the urgers of traditions ; whereas our ministers ( for the most part ) onely yeeld unto them , either in obedience and love , or feare , of the Magistrate that commands them .

Lastly whereas he argues them true ministers by this , that though they were very corrupt , yet they did still holde that every ministery must be from heaven , and not of men ; it deserveth rather to be laughed at , then answered . For may not , yea doe not the falsest ministers that are , or ever have been , holde so much , at least in such a sense and meaning , as the Pharisees might holde it ? and can he name any amongst us , that holdes not as much ?

As Mr. Can ended his last discourse with a loud lie ; so he beginneth the next with the like . Heere Maister Bradshaw , saith he , bestirs himselfe to proove their ministerie good by the Scribes and Pharisees . Whereas Mr. Bradshaw in plaine tearms affirmeth , that this argument from the Scribes and Pharisees , is used onely to shew , that some corruptions in ministers or Churches , are not of that nature , that men should therefore separate from all spirituall communion with them ; & that none of ours ever alledged it to such purpose , as Maister Iohnson pretendeth .

To little purpose therefore is all that ensueth , save that he serveth in Maister Iohnsons more then twice sodden coleworts again . For first , howsoever , saith he , they had new names , and in many things were very corrupt , yet they sate in Moses chaire , i.e. came rightly and Lawfully to the Leviticall and Priestly offices , which they executed in the Church of God , but theire ministers , as we have shewed it under their owne hands , doe want this true calling ▪ and therefore the comparison holdes not .

1. If Mr. Iohnson be pleased to make such objections as none of us ever made ; or Mr. Can such comparisons as we never dreamed of , are we bound to make good either Mr. Iohnsons fictions , or Maister Cans fancies ?

2. Can he shew this that he saith under Maister Bradshaws hand , or under the hands of I know not what discontented persons ( some Non-conformists , he meaneth ) that may have said much more in theire heate then they are able to make good , is no binding argument to others ; no more then Maister Can will account it such to himselfe , what we can shew under the hands of themselves , that is , of Schismaticall Separatists like themselves , concerning theire presbyterie , and Church-constitution . But such weapons as these must serve , where no better can be had .

3. How doth he proove , this to be the meaning of those words : They sit in Moses chaire , that is , they came rightly and Lawfullie to the Leviticall and Priestly offices . Forsooth he points us to Pareus . For in the margine , with a star in the context to guide us to it , See Pareus , saith he , on Math . 23.2 . and that we may not misse , but be sure to finde it there just so as he saith here , he giveth us the page too , page 578.

Now suppose that Pareus had averred the very same that he here doth ; yet were it but as if I should tell Mr. Can that the Democraticall exercise of Church-censures in his congregation is unwarrantable , and ill grounded on Christs words . Math . 18.17 . And for proofe of it point him , as well I might doe , to Maister Iohnson upon the place .

But as himselfe speaketh , ( though most unjustly of Maister Bradshaw in this very page ) beholde the forehead of the man . Pareus in that very place , that he pointeth us unto , sayeth the very direct contrary to that for which Maister Can here produceth him ; to wit , that the Scribes and Pharisees are said to sit in Moses chaire , because they came rightly and Lawfully to the Leviticall and Priestly offices . For Pareus saith expresly , that they were wrongfull invaders und entruders of themselves into that power & place that God had assigned to the Priests and Levites , & not to them . Let me give thee , good Reader , though it be somewhat tedious , ( that the honestie and conscience of this man may the better appeare ) Pareus his owne words at large .

It is not obscure , saith he , that by the phrase of sitting in Moses chaire is signifyed the office of teaching publickely , and delivering the doctrine or Law of Moses : he doth not derogate from them ▪ but attribute to them for the present the ordinary function of teaching : but withall he implieth , that this sect had without regard of right or wrong invaded the chaire , at the first originall , long since , given in charge by God to the Priests and Levites . Hitherto saith he they have set , that is , inthronised themselves in Moses chaire , which they now holde . And again ; they have without any calling of God seised on that chaire , which they holde . And yet againe , ( as if he must needes more then once , though l●ttle d●●●ming thereof when he writ this , give Maister Can here the lye . ) Thus not o●ely the missembassage of the Pharisees exercising other mens offices , but the perfidiousnes and sloathfullnesse of the Priests , in neglecting the duty enjoyned them by God , is taxed here by Christ . And yet saith he , because they have sat , and doe sit in Moses chaire , that is , this sect doth still holde the prime place in the government of the Church , and interpretation of the Law , and there are no other ordinarie teachers ; heare them . Yet , as he after sheweth not absolutely , but so farre forth as they sit in Moses chaire , that is , teach Moses doctrine , doctrine agreable to his . Could any man have brought in a witnesse to speake more directly against himselfe ? I say no more , but let simple ones take heed hereby how they trust Maister Cans quotations hereafter : and let him learne to see and acknowledge , if he have any drop of grace in him , his own wicked folly to his shame .

4. It were an hard taske to put Maister Can to proove ( that which Maister Iohnson allso averred before him , but in the very next words allmost againe contradicted himselfe in ) that all the Scribes and Pharisees in those times had either priestly or L●viticall offices . Saint Paul , I am sure , was a Pharisee before his conversion , though neither Levite nor Priest ; being of the tribe of Benjamin . Phil p. 3. 5. and Maister Iohnson granteth that they might be of any tribe : & yet were such allso permitted in their Synagogues to preach : as appeareth by that example of his . Act. 13.15 . And if this had been spoken of them as Priests Lawfull or unlawfull , they should rather have beene said to stand in Aarons roome , then to sitt in Moses chaire .

5. All this title tatle mixt , as you see , with grosse untruth , is nothing to the present point : which is this onely , whether the names of Scribes and pharisees mad : them ●o be false ministers , as Maister Iohnson would proove ours to be , because they are sometime tearmed priests and deacons . Or why ( not matter of calling , which is not now the present question , but ) the title of priests and deacons should p●oove us to be false ministers , more then the title of ●●ribes and pharisees prooves them to be such . So that this is to tell us of a mattock , when we are talking of a spade .

2 , He cannot thinke , he saith , that Maister Bradshaw should be so ignorant as in this place he makes shew of ; for his words impor● , that the ability which the Pharisees had to expound the Law , argued them true ministers . But this is false .

This indeed is most false , that Maister Bradshaws words import any such thing . He demandeth onely this ; if to be expounders of the Law , ( which , as Pareus , Maister Cans Advocate , before him , he understandeth to be the meaning of sitting in Moses chaire , with better ground then Maister Can maintaines his exposition , which by grosse falsehood and lyes , as you have heard , he seeketh to support , ) were sufficient to argue theire ministerie to be a true ministery ( as Maister Iohnson acknowledgeth it to be ) notwithstanding theire names and corruptions otherwise : then why may not the preaching of the word , and administration of the Sacraments , doe the like with ours , notwithstanding the names excepted against ? For what Maister Can addeth of the Scribes and Pharisees , of which fam ly ( to wit , of Levi ) were these ; which to proove he printeth us to Ioh . 1.19 . w●h 24. ) and then addeth , So many as were emploied in or about the service of the Sanc●uarie .

1. It is false , as was shewed before , that all the Scribes and Pharisees were such . And will you see how soundly he prooves it by the place produced ? The Pr ests and Levites that were sent to Iohn Baptist , were of the Pharisees . Ergo the Pharisees were all Priests or Levites . As if a man should reason thus , supposing two or three coopers or coblers to have given theire voices , in calling Maister Can to be their Pastor . The coopers or coblers that at Amsterdam gave their vo●ces for Mr. Can were of the Separation . Ergo , all the Separatists , either there or elswhere , are coopers or coblers . The one argument is every ace of it , as good as the other . But thus these men cite Scripture : which this place excepted , he hath scarce done in this whole discourse againe , for proofe of ought questioned , howsoever for some things , whereof there is no question , sometime he doth it , ) & you see how happily he doth it here .

2. What he addeth , of so many as were imploied in or about the Sanctuarie ; that cometh a great deale too short of that that is in question , of sitting in Mos●s cha●re , and expounding of the Law in the synagogues ; which many did , that were not imploied in the temple at all .

All that he subjoines , either of Popish Priests , or Jeroboams Priests , what they might pleade for themselves ; & of Mr. Bradshaws leaving the blinde Priests in the ditch ; & of his shifting too & froo , as one that sitteth uneas ly ; is but dust & smoake , raised to make a smoother withall , to hinder the Readers eyes , while he is taken up with impertinent passages , from observing and discerning how Mr. Can swarveth from the present argument , & passeth by the principall & maine matter of that , that he ought to have replied unto ; to wit , that such appellations and corruptions as have be●n spoken of , though granted , doe not proove our minis● r to be false ministers ; no more then t●e l ke did the Scribes and Pharisees to be such : & that their arguments for separation drawn from either of them , are unsound , that which he dissemblingly passeth by , & answereth not a title unto .

And thus are we come to an end of Mr. Iohnsons first Reason , backed with 7. Arguments : no one whereof Mr. Can hath once indeavoured to make good by taking away the Answeres directly returned thereunto ; save by repeating Mr. Iohnsons words over againe , denying the Answere to be true , upon his own bare word , or the sayings of some other body ; snatching and snarling at by matters ; misrelating Mr. Bradshaws words ; grosely belying him ; virulently taunting him ; & running out into tedious and unsavoury passages , impertinent , and such as nothing touch that that be ought to reply unto . Allbeit therefore there is little better to be looked for in the rest of his discourse ; and to much inck & paper , besides pretious time , hath been cast away allready in survey of the former : yet , least the worst & weakest part may seeme to have been dealt with onely , the better & more substantiall leaft untoucht , I shall , intreating the Readers patience , proceede on , though it be indeed a very tedious taske , that I have here undertaken , to discover further the mans vanity , for all his peremtory language and carriage , in those things that ensue .

The second Reason .

Fr. Iohnson .

None may heare , or have any spirituall communion with the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy .

Such is the ministery of the Church-assemblies of England .

Ergo none may heare , or have any Spirituall communion with the same .

W. Bradshaw

I grant the proposition , taking the words in the plain & common sence : to wit , understanding by the ministery of Antichrists apostasy , the administration & dispensation of the things of Antichrist : otherwise to communicate spiritually with any ministers whatsoever onely in the holy things of Christ , is not to communicate with the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy , no though the ministers be ministers thereof . Neither doe his five reasons following , whereby he needlessely prooves his proposition , proove it unlawfull to heare , or have any spirituall communion with the ministers of Antichrist then , when they minister the things of Christ .

Here Mr. Can telleth us , that Mr. Bradshaw begins with a manifest untruth . viz. that to communicate spiritually with the ministers of Antichrist in holy things , is not to communicate in his Apostasy . And that this is an untruth , Mr. Can thus prooves : If this be true , then unlawfull ministers may lawfully be communicated with . But this , saith he , cannot be , & that he prooveth , because it was unlawfull to communicate with Corah , or with Vzziah , tho' they burnt true incense ; or with Ieroboams Priests , tho' they offered true sacrifices .

1. His proposition is denyed . For neither will it follow , that no unlawfull minister may lawfully be communicated ●ith , all that communicate with any minister of Antichrists Apostasy in any holy thing of God , doe communicate with him in his Antichristian Apostasy , howsoever they were guilty therein of sinne otherwise . Nor yet againe ; tho' it be granted , that some may communicate in some holy things with a minister of Antichrists Apostasy , and yet not communicate with the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy , will it thence follow , that an unlawfull minister may Lawfully be communicated with .

2. His Assumption is not prooved by the instances produced . It is no good consequence . It was not Lawfull to communicate with Corah , Vzziah , & Ieroboams priests in some things . Therefore with no unlawfull ministers in any thing .

Besides , what he saith of Ieroboams Priests & sacrifices , that they were true sacrifices ; if by true he meane reall and essentiall sacrifices ; so were those that the Iews offered to devills and all heathen theire idoles ; and being so understood the instant is idle . For that is not sufficient to make them holy things . Or if by true he meane legall , and truely religious , it is false that he affirmeth of them ; they were in themselves not holy things , but unholy and abominable sacrileges . And the absurdity of the inference will easily appeare . It was unlawfull to communicate with Ieroboams priests in their idolatrous sacrifices . Therefore it is unlawfull to communicate with any false minister in the holy things of God .

W . Bradshaw ▪

For the proofe of the Assumption he makes a terrible muster of no lesse then 7. Arguments . But let us pull up our Spirits , and see what is in them , one by one ,

Fr. Iohnson .

The ministery of Priests and Deacons ordained by Prelates thereunto , is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy .

The ministery of the Church-assemblys of England is such a ministery .

Ergo . It is of Antichrists Apostasy .

W . Bradshaw

He brought this very Argument to proove the first reason , & now he brings it againe for a proofe of his second reason : and is not this a learned kinde of reasoning ? when he will make a shew of multitudes of reasons against us , and yet all of them come to one issue , and lie upon one ground , and depend upon one proofe ; so that the overthrow of on● i● the overthrow of all : but his childish vanity herein , we shall the better perceave , in that which followeth .

Both the proposition and assumption are false . For

1. It is not necessary , that the ministery of Priests & Deacons , though ordained by Antichrist himselfe , should be the ministery of his Apostasy : but notwithstanding his ordination , their ministery may be the ministery of Iesus Christ , as was the ministery of Luther , Husse , Wickliff and others .

2. The ministery of such manner , of Priests & Deacons , as the Prelates ordain , ( or by the Laws ought to ordain ) is the tru ministery of Iesus Christ , & for the substance thereof , directly contrary to the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy .

3. The ministery of our Church-assemblys , is not ( as I have shewed before ) the ministery of Priests & deacons properly so called , but of pastors & teachers .

The proposition he prooveth as followeth , by two Arguments .

Fr. Iohnson .

The ministery of Deacons and Priests which accounts it selfe to be Christs , and yet was not set by Christ himselfe in his Church , for the worke of the ministery , is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy .

Such is the ministery of Deacons and Priests , ordained by the Prelates thereunto .

Ergo it is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy .

W . Bradshaw

This argument is that which he bringeth for the first reason of all : and here he brings it to proove that which before was brought to proove it . For he prooves , that our ministery is not set by Christ in his Church , by this , because it is the ministery of priests and Deacons , and so by consequent of Antichrists Apostasy : Here he prooves , that the ministery of priests and Deacons is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy , because it is a ministery , that was not sett by Christ in his Church . Thus doth he most grosly runne round in a circle ; as if I should proove , that his ministery is unlawfull ; because he is a Schismatick ; and that he is a Schismatick , because his ministery is unlawfull .

The 2. reason , whereby he prooves his proposition , followeth .

Fr. Iohnson .

2. If the Prelates of the Church of England have such offices and government , as be speciall parts of Antichrists Apostasy , then the ministery ordained by them thereunto , must needs be the ministery of that Apostasy .

But the Prelates of the Church of England have such offices & government , as be speciall parts of Antichrists Apostasy . Ergo

The ministery ordained by them , is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy ▪ The consequent is manifest , because the fruit must needes be as the tree is , Math . 7.16 . and who can bring a cleare thing out of filthynes . Iob 14.4 .

The assumption is prooved .

1. Whosoever ( besides Christ ) have such offices and government , whereby they claime to be spirituall Lords , they have the offices and government which are speciall parts of Antichrists Apostasy , and are indeed very Ant●christs themselves .

But such are the Prelates of the Church of England .

Therefore they have such offices and government , as are speciall parts of Antichrists Apostasy .

The propos t on is prooved by those places of Scripture , which teach there is but one spirituall Lord , the Lord Iesus Christ .

The assumption is prooved by the Laws and Statutes of the land , wherein they are called Lords spirituall , and in theire Canons they take upon them to prescribe their own ordinances to the Church , for the worship of God ; & binde the spirite and conscience to the acknowledgement and approbation thereof , & to give the holy ghost .

2. The offices and government of such Bishops , as are over Diocessan & Provinciall Churches , and exercise Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction over all the ministers and people therein , are speciall parts of Antichrists Apostasy .

But such are the Prelates of the Church of England .

Therefore , they have such offices and government , as be specially parts of Antichrists Apostasy .

W . Bradshaw

1. I deny the consequence of the proposition of the first Syllogisme . The off●cers and governers of Antichrists Apostasy , may and have ordained some things that are Chr●stian . Neither doth the saying of Christ or Iob proove the consequence . For though it should be granted unto them , that the governers of Antichrists Apostasy have ordained this ministery , yet doth it not follow , that it is therefore a proper and meere fruit of Antichrist , but may be an accidentall effect , as are many other things , which he ordaineth , agreeable to Christs own ordinances . So that he mu t proove , that our ministery ordained by the Pope or Bishops , doth as properly flow from the nature of theire office and government , as figgs from a figg tree , or grapes from a vine , or filthy water from a f●ule fountain : the contrary whereof is in this case most evident . For leave the bare names and titles , and consider our ministery in all the essentiall parts and offices thereof , and it is as possible either for a presbytery , or for any particular Church , such in constitution as theire own , to ordaine the like ministery in all points and respects , with all the defects and faults thereof .

2. Concerning the proofe of the Assumption , the proposition may be denyed : it being one thing to bee , and on other thing to claime to be ; for every one is not that which he claimeth to be . The instances alledged to proove the assumption , either are false , or proove it not . The Laws may give those titles to men which they doe not claime ; neither doe either theire Canons or practise shew , that they prescribe their own ordinances for worship , or propound to bind mens consciences to the acknowledgement of any such matter . They professe the contrary , and urge theire own ordinances onely under the name of things indifferent . Though therefore in error of judgement , they may , and happily doe command such ordinances of their own , as are divine worship , & in such a manner , as it bindeth conscience , ( which Maister Iohnsons own Church in many cases may doe , except they thinke themselves priviledged from error ) yet they protesting against any such power and autority , they cannot be said therein to arrogate the office of Spirituall Lords ; in that sense at least , in which Christ is said to be the onely spirituall Lord . And tho' in theire ordination of ministers , they use , as a ceremoniall speech , to say , Receave the holy Ghost ; and therein peradventure offer some force to the Scripture , unto which they allude , yet they disclaime all actuall power and autority of giving the person , or gifts of the holy Ghost , unto men .

It shall be needles in this controversy , to spend time in the defence of the calling of Bishops , any further then the necessity of the argument requires : onely for the further clearing of the truth , in the differences of them of the Separation , not onely from the Bishops , but from the other sort of ministers allso , which doe not approove of their callings , I offer these points unto them , to consider of advisedly .

1 Whether the Supreame Magistrate have not power to oversee and governe all the severall Churches within his dominions ; yea whether he be not bound so to doe .

2. Whether for his further help and assistance herein , he may not make choise of grave , learned be reverend men , to assist him in the same government .

3 Whether by vertue of his power these persons , thus calld to assist the supreame Magistrate , may not Lawfully try the gifts of all the severall ministers within his Dominions , & give publick approbation of the worthy , and inhibite those , which they finde unworthy , from the execution of their ministery : and whether they may not visite the severall ministers and Churches , convent them before them , examine them , how they have behaved themselves in theire places , & pun●sh the blame worthy .

4. Whether for the more easy and orderly government of the said Churches , so far forth as appertaineth to him , he may not divide his Kingdome ( as ou●s is ) into provinces , assigneing over each of them under himselfe , some special ma●●strate , f●t for learning & experience , to over see & governe all the generall & particular chu●ches there : & whether he may not subdivide those provinces into diocesses , assigneing allso unto them , other more inferior officers , under him , & his provinciall officers , to oversee the severall churches within such & such a p●ecinct .

5. Whether it doe destroy the nature of a ministeriall or a particular tru visible church that many of them should appertain to one provinciall or diocessan government ; tho' in that respect they should be held and reputed , but for one P●ovinciall or Diocessan Church .

6. Whether Antichrist , having usurped the Kings supremacy and taken into his hands this authority , and corrupted the same , hath made it now unlawfull for the Magistrate to execute the same in manner and forme aforesaid : or whether the jurisdiction aforesaid doe not directly and properly belong to the civill Magistrate ; and not to Antichrist , but by usurpation : and whether his usurpation of this office , can make it a part of his apostasy , in those places , where it is restored againe to the supreame Magistrate .

7. Whether the supreame Magistrate , recovering this his right from Antichrist , and together with it happily taking allso to himselfe , something that belongs to the Kingdome of Ant●christ , and executing the same , either in his own person , or by others , together with his own Lawfull right , whether , I say , this doe destroy his own Lawfull right : and whether the subject is ever the lesse bound to subject themselves , unto the same right either in his own person , or his substitute .

Hitherto he hath endeavoured to proove the proposition of the first argument , whereby he would confirm te Assumption of the second reason : & now he setts upon the proofe of the Assumption ; namely : That the present ministery of the Church assemblies of England , is the ministery of Deacons and Priests ordained by Prelates thereunto . This , he saith , is prooved by the Canons , constitut●ons and observation of our Church . And this he confirmeth first with a long tedious and idle rehearsall of the forme of ordination of our ministers , bestowing cost to print in a manner our whole booke of ordination .

2. By certain of the late Canons pressing subscription , conformity , and an acknowledgement of the Lawfullnes of the calling of Bishops and of theire ordination .

3. By certain sharp speeches of some martyrs , and of some others of our own nat●on against the Arch-Bishops , Bishops , and other of the Clergy of theire times : in the relation of which points he spend some 5. leaves : wherein still he runns in a circle , begging one of his arguments to proove an other : So that one of his arguments are as g●o● as all , and all no better then one .

This may suffice for answere .

1. That if all particulars mentioned in the booke of ordination should be strictly & precisly practised ( as allways they are not ) yet there is not one clause in the whole forme of ordination by him cited , that doth necessarily argue them which are so ordained , to be true and proper Priests and Deacons : but if there were , and if allso the ministers ordained were annointed with oile , if theire crowns were shaven , and they had power given to offer the abominable idole of the Masse , yet this is not sufficient to argue , that theire ministery , is the ministery of Priests , &c. except in theire ministery they should execute the same . If their own Church should ordaine one to the ministery of a Pastor , & should in their ordination require him , onely to preach the word sincerely , and to administer the Sacraments according to Christs institution ; and yet in his practise and execution , he should doe nothing but sing Masse and Mattens , and they should accept of this ministery & no other at his hands ; would any that is in his witts say , that this mans ministery is the ministery of a Pastor , because he was in formality of words and ceremonys ordained to that office ? how much lesse can any man say , that our ministery is the ministery of Priests , when they doe not onely execute any such office , but the cleane contrary ; and when in theire ordination not so much as any part of a Priests office ( properly so taken ) is assigned unto them , but onely the name ; & not so much as their name in their orders written in Latine , which are to interpreate the meaning of the English word .

2. Though the ministers should doe all things required by the Canons , & should be every way answerable unto them : and though the testimonys of our martyrs and others were yeelded to be true , yet must he strive hard , that can from either or both argue , that our ministers are indeed Priests , except in a metaphoricall and borrowed speech .

Out o● all this whole piece , Maister Can calleth and cutteth out onely two or three shreds , to be snipping and snatching at , after his manner .

1. It is certaine ( saith he ) that the ministery of Priests & Deacons ordained by Antichrist , is the ministery of his apostasy , and not Christs , as he prophanely affirmes , for he makes them not according to the institution prescribed of God ; but wholly after a wicked and divelish device of hi● own braine : so that the same is a meere fruit of the beast and false Prophet ; and no accidentall effect , but a most cursed thing , which doth as properly flow from his defection , as figgs from the figg tree , or a childe from the seed of the parents .

B●t Maister Ca●s p●●positi●n here , if ●is argument be syllogistically framed , is d●●yed . For though Antichrist should have ordained them after so wicked and divelish a manner ; yet it will not thence fo●low , but that such ministery as they , notwithstanding such ordination , may execute and exercise , may be the ministery of Christ , even of pastors and teachers , as hath ben before said . And Mr. Cans certaine avowchment will not be taken therefore upon his word , till he bring us some better proofe .

2. As for Luther , ( saith he ) Husse , Wickliffe , & others , whereof he speakes ; it is but an absurd and childish begging of the question : Seeing it cannot be prooved , that they receaved a lawfull & ordinary ministery from the Church of Rome .

1. If this crackbraind fellow did but understand , either what his adversary answereth , or what himselfe saith , he would never in this shamelesse manner foame out his own folly , and abuse both himselfe and those that reade him . He saith that Maister Bradshaw childishly beggs the question , who neither keepeth himselfe to the question , nor understandeth what the begging of the question mean ● . He beggeth the question , that requireth that to be granted him that is in question , for the proofe of that he saith . Maister Bradshaw onely in way of answere to Maister Iohnsons proposition affirmeth , that the ministery exercised by some that have been ordained by Antichrist ; ( for example , Luther , Wickl ffe , Husse , &c. ) may be the ministery of Christ . Which without begging the question must still stand good , till Maister Iohnson or Maister Can have prooved the contrary .

2. He saith that therefore Ma●ster Bradshaw begs the question , because it cannot be prooved , that these men before mentioned receaved a Lawfull ordinary ministery from the Church of Rome : when as , neither is this the question , whither they did receave a Lawfull ordinary ministery from the Curch of Rome , or no ; nor doth Maister Bradshaw say any such thing .

3. To that of Maister Bradshaw that the ministery of such Priests & Deacons as the Prelates ordaine , or by the Laws ought to ordaine is the true ministery of Iesus Christ : and for the substance thereof directly contrary to Antichrists apostasy .

To this ▪ I say , Maister Can thus replys .

He saith , hat the ministery of such Priests and Deacons , which the Prelates ordaine , are the true ministers of Iesus Christ . W●at every dumb dog , & all those 60. 80. and 100. which are made at a clap , and sent forth as rogues ad masterlesse servants , to get benefices where they can , havi●g no particular congregation , &c. Yea , now all againe are justifyed , for he speaks without exception or limitation .

Where fi●st , he clippeth away some o● Maister Bradshaws words : then to make him say , what he would have him say , he speaketh non sense himselfe : and maketh him likewise to doe the like , in saying , as he saith , that the ministery of such Priests and Deacons , which the Prelates ordaine , are the ministers of Iesus Christ : And so after a parcell of his base and scurrilous language , taken up it seemes , at second hand from some sory broker like himselfe ; not free from just suspition of grosse untruth , he concludeth with a loud lye , that Maister Bradshaw speaketh without exception or limitation : which is manifestly false . For he saith expresly ; that the Prelates ordaine , or by Law ought to ordaine .

2. Maister Bradshaw doth not avouch all ministers made by the Prelates to be Lawfull ministers , but that the ministery of Priests and Deacons such as our Law intendeth ( which are in effect no other then pastors and teachers , nor have appeared to be any other ▪ by ought that hath hitherto been objected ) can not therefore be d●nyed to be the ministery have ben ordained by the Pre●ates . For , as for those that have no particular congregation , we have in this controversy nothing to doe with them ; since the same , ( which we are inforced to minde Maister Can so oft off , that we may keepe him from ranging ; because he still forgets himselfe where he is , and what he is about ) is concerning Separation from our Church-assemblys , and consequently of the ministers of particular congregations ; which they are not , which have none .

Nor doth this therefore any way crosse or contradict , either that which some other , he saith , have said , that all Ecclesiasticall officers ought to be chos●n by the free choise of the people . ( which yet would be hard for Maister Can it may be , to proove ) or that which Maister Bradshaw himselfe saith el●where ; that some ministers have ben permitted among us , that have not had ordination from the Prelates : for all Maister Cans loud cry of daubing , rotten stuff , &c. And much lesse doth it inferre , what he would hence squize out ; that if men will be Priests of our Churches , they may come in any way ; and it is no matter how they be ordained , nor who ordaine them , nor whether they be ordained or no : His words indeed , saith Maister Can ; implie no lesse . Which being but a base calumny of one , who by his course constantly held here , evidently sheweth , that he litl●e regards what he saith , tho' never so manifestly false ; so he may any way utter that , that may cast some aspersion upon his adversary : and having in the former passage , by explanation of his meaning , sufficiently cleared it , I let it passe , & leave it with the rest of the like kind , for Maister Can to answere , when all those shall be reckoned with , that either love or make lyes .

To the same reckoning I referre that allso which next followeth , well deserving the whetstone , where he saith , that Maister Bradshaw never brings either Scrip●ures , examples , reasons or humane testimonys , to confirme any one thing , whereof he writes . Which allbeit he had not done , yet he might have done as much as could justly be exacted of him , being in place of an answerer to an othe●s arguments , whose proper office is to answere , either by distinction , or deniall : yet whither he have never brought any of these , to confirme any one thing , that he writes of , let any Reader consider advisedly ; and if he finde it not to be a most notorious untruth , let him return me the lye , and I will willingly undergoe it .

4. Passing by certain froathy demands ( as he tearmeth them ) which yet to men of und●rstanding will appeare to be substantiall , and very pertinent to the matter of Mai ter Iohnso●s Arg●ment and the proofe of his Assumption ; Th●t the ministery of the Church-assemblies of England , is the ministery of Deacons and Priests , by the Bishops ordained thereto , &c. He replyeth onely this ; that Maister Bradshaw bewrayeth greate ignorance , in not putting a difference between a ministery , and the execution of it ; which are distinct things . And if he had not wanted witt , he would not so absurdly have confounded the one with the other : that it is possible , that one should be a tru Ecclesiasticall officer , and yet never doe the services thereof : as a woman is really a wife immediately upon her mariage , before she performe any duty yea though she should never pe●forme any . And Maister Bradshaw therefore was deceived to thinke if one be a false minister by ordination that the administration of Lawfull things , makes him true . Which he sheweth by an instance of some other then of Aarons house admitted to be Priests , administering without exception , and yet no Lawfull officers notwithstanding . And againe , that one ordained a Pastor according to Christs instituiion , hath certainly a Lawfull ministery , howsoever things should fall out afterward , yea tho' he should sing Masse and Mattens ▪ as a person may be a servant , or subject truly and fully , and yet doe afterwards the actions of theeves , rebels , traiters , &c.

But neither was Maister Bradshaw such a silly ignoramus , as Maister Can would make of him , as not to be able to distinguish betweene ordination and execution ; nor such a loose and unlimitted disputant , as to wander , as Maister Cans wonted manner is , from the matter he hath in hand . The po●nt in present agitation is concerning the ministery of Priests and Deacons , such a●●y our Prela es are ordained , what it is for the substance of it : which Maister Iohnson t proove it to be the ministery of Pri●sts and Deacons , properly so tearmed , & no● of pastors and teachers , alledgeth the booke of ordination and certain canons & constitutions , wherein conformity , and some other such things are enjoined . To wh●ch Maister Bradshaw as you have heard , answereth , that neither any o●e clause in the whole forme of ordination argueth them , so to be as he saith ; nor tho' there had been in theire ordination power given them to sing and say Masse and Mattens would it proove , therefore theire ministery to be the ministery of Priests , properly so tearmed , unles they did execute t●e same no more then the ministery of Maister Can would be deemed the ministery of a Pastor , though being ordained to that office he should doe nothing but sing Masse and Mattens .

The difference therefore is here to be put , not betweene the ministery , and the execution of it , as Maister Can speakes ; but betweene the en●rance into it , and the substance of it . The latter whereof is the main matter at ●re●ent in question between Maister Iohnson and Maister Bradshaw , as Maister Can was admonished , had he either wit or will to take notice of it , both at the very first entrance , in answere to the first reason ; and againe in answere to the first argument , for the Assumption of the second reason . 92.

W . Bradshaw .

The other A●guments , whereby he prooveth the maine Assumption of the 2. reason . viz. that the ministery of the Church-assemblys of England , is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy follow .

Fr. Iohnson .

The ministery of the prelacy professing it selfe to be Christs , & yet standing in such an estate , as it doth not obey Iesus Christ in his ordinance of ministery , worship and government of the Church , as theire Prophet , Priest and King , is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy .

Such is the present ministery of the Church-assemblys of England .

Ergo , it is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy .

W . Bradshaw

To the proposition I answere , that not onely the ministery of the Prelates , but of a presbytery , or any Church whatsoever , that stands in such an estate , is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy : and not onely the ministery of the Prelates , but any other ministery el●e upon earth , may stand in such an estate , as that it may in divers and sundry particulars , of ignorance or infirmity , disobey Christ in his own ordinances of ministery , worship and government of the Church , & in that respect , and so farre forth be the ministery of Antichrists apostasy ; & yet be also the ministery of Iesus Christ .

Hee prooves the proposition by 19. places of Scripture ; to as much purpose as if by as many testimonys he should proove that it is day light at high noone : Except he meane , that that is the ministry of Antichrists apostasy , which doth not in every particular obey Christ in his own ordinances of ministery . But his 19. proofes have no more force to proove it , then to proove that there is a man in the moone , as any man may see , that hath nothing else to doe , but examine them .

2. I deny the Assumption . The ministery of our Church-assemblys , though it he ordained by the Prelates , and be subiect unto them , yet it is not theire ministery , but the ministery of Iesus Christ ; they preaching his word and administring his Sacraments : and it doth , if it be answerable to the Law , obey Christ in all the maine essentiall parts of his own ordinances of ministery , &c. And in all other points ( for ought he can proove to the contrary ) as far as the Lord hath revealed the truth unto them which exercise the same .

Fr. Iohnson .

The Assumption is evident by that which hath been sayd in the 1. Reason , & theire constitution it selfe shews it : in that they are so far from obeying Christ in his ordinances of ministery , and as that they execute the ministery and government of an other Arch-Bishop , and Lord-Bishop then Christ ; of an Arch-Deacon , parson , vicar , &c. as also in their reading prayers out of a booke , & observing other humane inventions , and in theire Church government according to Canons , Courts , &c. which were never appointed by Christ .

W . Bradshaw

To omitt , that here againe he begs his first reason to proove his second : if the assumption have no better evidence , the evidence is false , as I have made it evident in the answere to the first reason .

Neither hath he there or elswhere ( in any of those other of theire writings which he sends us unto pag . 40. ) prooved , that our ministers doe not obey Christ , in his ordinances of ministery , worship and government : yea tho' it should be granted that they execute the ministery and government of other Arch-Bishops and Lord-Bishops besides Christ ; and tho' they should be Arch-Deacons , parsons , vicars , reading stinted prayers , &c. For all this may be done , yea and they may sinne some way in doing all this , & yet they may obey Christ , in all the maine , essentiall and substantiall points , of his ministery , worship and government .

To this Maister Can thus replieth : Maister Bradshaw as one that purposeth to deceive others , concealeth that that should give speciall light to the matter ; and meerely to gull his reader hides from him whatsoever should serve for his most true information about the point in dispute ; affirming , that ministers may in divers and sundry particulars , disobey Christ in his ordinances of worship and government : not expressing what those diverse and sundry particulars are : that which he is perswaded he durst not doe , because they would then soone have joyned issue with him : and when he shall doe , till which time he leaveth him in the midst of his idle discourse ( as he tearmeth it ) he telleth him he will return him an answere .

But thus Maister Can , as elswhere , still forgetts himselfe , and what part Maister Bradshaw holdeth in this dispute with Maister Iohnson , it is an answerers part and person that he sustaineth . And it is enough , that he denyeth Maister Iohnsons proposition . Which unles it be made good ; That in no particulars at all , a ministery may ( not Lawfully , for that Maister Bradshaw saith not , but that it may so fall out that it so doth ) disobey Christ in his own ordinance , &c. And yet continue still the ministery of Christ ; Maister Iohnsons proposition falleth to the ground .

And as he forgets Maister Bradshaws part , so his own place too : he tells us , he w l an●●ere , if we will tell him this and that ; whereas he ought to replie , & proove that that ●s denyed . But this is the manner of sory disputants , when they are at a ●on plus , to give over their opposition , and bid the answerer , either tell what he meaneth , or take theire office upon him , proove that that he saith , when they cannot proove what themselves say .

For as for joyning of issue ( which Maister Bradshaw forsooth had so much cause to feare ) it was joyned long since , between Maister Iohnson as plaintiff & Maister Bradshaw as defendant . Maister Bradshaw as you see here denying the truth of Maister Iohnsons plea , as he hath layd it ; and Maister Can his proctor refusing to make it good , and so leaving his clients cause altogether undefended , while with other idle discourse ( to return him his own tearm ) he trifleth out the time , and tireth his readers to no purpose .

The like answere may be returned to that which followeth ; where he requireth , that in the next reply , they will shew some good reason , for that which Maister Bradshaw writes , that ministers may execute the ministery and government of other Arch-Bishops , &c. As if this were Maister Bradshaws reply , and not an answere to Maister Iohnsons arguments ; which if he will make good , he must proove the thing here denyed ; and not putt the other party by some proofe to make go●d his deniall .

Nor doth it thence follow , as he would have it , that all pleas against the prelacy , must needs be unjust : since that just complaint may be , both of irreptitious corruptions adhearing to a ministery , and oft injurious usurpation exercised on it , and suite made for the reformation and remoovall of either ; and yet the ministery it selfe not necessarily therefore , for the essence and substance of it , denyed to be the ministery of Christ , nor obedience , by those that execute fuch a ministery , denyed unto Christ in the maine and essentiall parts of his ministery , worship and government .

For as for that he relates out of some intemperate spirites , that our booke of Common praier was taken out of the vile Masse booke , full of all blasphemys , lyes and abominations ; and our government taken wholly and every part from the Pope : we are no more tyed to acknowledge what such say , then they , what Maister Smith and his followers , viz. that theire Church in regard of her Constitution is as very an Harlot , as either her Mother England , or her grandmother Rome is , out of whose loines she came : and as her constitution , so her worship , ministery & government false . In his Epistle before the Character of the Beast ; that Antichrist is not utterly revealed or abolished , but in a very high degree is exalted in theire Churches ; in his preface to the differences of the Churches of the Separation . And that theire Eldership is an invention of man , having an Antichristian ministery and government in it . And that therefore when the popish presbytery was supprest , and their tr formed presbytery substituted , one Antichrist was putt down and an other sett up in his place , or the beast was supprest , and his image was advanced , &c. vide p. 24.

Fr. Iohnson .

The ministery of Christian which is opposed against , and exalted above the holy things , ministery and ordinances of Christ , is the ministery of Antichrists apostaly . 1. Thes . 2.3.4 . with 1. Ioh . &c.

Such is the ministery of their Church-assemblys .

Ergo , It is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy .

The Assumption is evident ; 1. A man may peaceably receive or administer theire holy things in theire manner , by vertue of their Deaconry or Priesthood , received from theire Prelates .

But if any doe administer or receive the holy things of God by the offices of pastors and teachers entred into and executed according to the testament of Christ , they are reviled and persecuted .

1. Their prelacy , pr●esthood and deaconry is the very meanes of thrusting away , and keeping out of the Church , the ministery and order which Christ hath appointed , which some of themselves heretofore have acknowledged and written .

W . Bradshaw

1. The ministery of our Church-assemblys being answerable to the Laws , is not a ministery exalted in any thing above the ministery of Christ , but the very same in nature and quality , tho' in some accidents it may differre : in which difference , if here be any sinne , it is of ignorance or infirmity in the ministers ; which may in as high or a higher degree befall unto the best ministers , that ever were since the Apostles times .

2. The holy things , which they administer , are the holy things of Iesus Christ , and not of their own , and by vertue of that Priesthood and Deaconry which they have received , they may not administer any other holy things , but what Christ Iesus requireth . The other things which they administer , are judged by them which administer them , onely things indifferent , and matters of order , wherein if they which use them be deceived , it is but such an error , as worthy martyrs of Iesus Christ , have been subject unto , & not sufficient to make theire ministery an Antichristian ministery .

3. The Prelates doe not persecute any true Pastors and Teachers , so much for ministering any of the holy things of Christ , as for refusing to conforme to some speciall ordinances of their own ; which they doe not holde to be holy things , but matters of order , and which by reasons they have indeavoured to proove to be so ? wherein the practise of Prelates is no more extreame then their own , who censure as farre as they can , in all extreamity , all them who doe not in all points conforme and agree to theire own orders , ceremonys and Church politie .

4. It can never be prooved , that the admittance of this ministery , is a hinderance of a better , but rather it is a meanes to keep out a worse , and a way in time to bring in a better , if a better be to be brought in . For by yeelding to some things that may be bettered , and is so wished and indeavoured , a doare is opened to minister many holy things , which otherwise should be shut . And if it be as Lawfull , for us to conjecture , as for him , theire generall Schisme and rent from this ministery , hath been one maine and principall meanes to uphold it as it is .

Fr. Iohnson .

The ministery which is such as in the nature and condition thereof it pertaineth not to any body or State either civill or ecclesiasticall , but onely to the body or Kingdome of Antichrists Apostasy , is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy .

Such is the ministery of their Church-assemblys .

Ergo , It is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy .

The Assumption is cleare , in as much as their Prelacy , Priesthood and Deaconry , is such , that the civill State may be perfect without them , and the Church of Christ may be compleate without them ; onely the body and Kingdome of the Romish Antichrist , can not be full and furnished in all the offices thereof without them .

W . Bradshaw

For answere to the Assumption .

1. Concerning the Prelacy ( though it be not any ministery of any of our Church-assemblys , and therefore idely urged , in this & all the other arguments ) this may be said .

1. That the principall , and most honourable parts thereof are onely usurped by Antichrist , and doe not appertain to him , but to the jurisdiction of the supreame Magistrates and States .

2. That the State of a Christian common-wealth cannot be perfect , without some generall visitors and overseers of Churches .

3. That though a particular Church or congregation may be compleate without them , yet for the necessary union and agreement of the severall Churches in Christian Provinces and Kingdomes , it is fitt and agreeable to reason , & no ways repugnant to Gods word , that under the supreame Magistrate there should be other governers to protect and incourage those ministers and Churches which doe their duty ; and to punish those which shall offend . Wherein if either through warrant of humane Laws , or some personall corruption , they shall in some things passe their bounds , they doe no more than any other officers , either civill or Ecclesiasticall , through frailty and infirmity , may doe .

4. That the Kingdome of Antichrist can not be furnished , in all the offices thereof without the autority of civill Magistrates : and therefore this seems to make as much against the calling of civill Magistrates as Bishops .

2. Concerning the ministery of our Priests and Deacons , such as it is , or by Law ought to be , in our Church-assemblys , the Church of Christ can not be compleate without it . Yea it is no Church without it . Neither can the Kingdome of Antichrist stand before it . Neither will he ever proove the contrary .

Fr. Iohnson .

The ministery which is such , as the body of Antichrist , the man of sinne can not without it be compleate in all the members and canonicall functions thereof , is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy .

Such is the ministery of the Church-assemblys of England .

Ergo , It is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy .

W . Bradshaw

This argument is but the taile of the former ; and therefore needs no further answere , it being cut off in the answere to the former , the canons pont●ficall & State of the Romish Antichrist doe manifest the contrary , which have and doe persecute with sword and fire such a ministery as is the ministery of our Church assemblys : if it be in all points , to the intent of the Law .

Fr. Iohnson .

The ministery of Deacons , Priests and Prelates , which accounts it selfe to be Christs , and yet indeed is such , as the Kings & rulers of the earth may & ought to suppresse and roote out of their Dominions , is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy .

Such is theire ministery . Ergo ,

It is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy .

The Assumption is prooved in the former reason , and in other treatises , and by some of themselves in their suites to the Parliament : and if the Prelates , & their conforming Clergy denie it , they are by theire own Canons excommunicated ipso facto .

W . Bradshaw

This sixt argument is borowed from the first reason , where it is brought to proove , that our ministery is not the ministery of pastors and teachers : as here it is brought againe to proove , that it is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy .

But how doth he proove that the King ought to suppresse this ministery ? he refers us for the proofe thereof , especially to the former reason , how doth he proove it there ? thus : it is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy , therefore the King ought to suppresse it . Is not this learned stuffe ?

Concerning his other treatises which he so often send us unto , as if they were in every streete and marketplace of the land ; we have not so much idle time to seeke after them : and we presume we shall finde no better stuffe in them , then in this .

If any among us have putt up any such suite to the Parliament , for the abolishing of our ministery in generall , let them answere for themselves . But the Prelates may well laugh at his simplicity and sillinesse of witt , that thinkes to fright them with such a buggbeare as this , in making them beleeve , that they are by theire own Canons excommunicated ipso facto ; if they deny that the King may and ought to abolish our ministery .

Fr. Iohnson .

If it be such as shall be abolished by the Lord through the power and light of his gospell , then it is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy .

The First is true . Ergo

The Latter is true allso .

W . Brads●aw .

The same answere will serve for this argument , that was given to the former . For the Assumption is false , the light of the gospell shall more and more confirme , establish and perfect it ; and remoove all the defects and blemishes in it . his proofe is as ridiculous and sophisticall , as is the former , for he prooves it by the same question , that here it is brought to proove . For so in effect proceeds his disputation .

That which shall be abolished is Antichristian .

Our ministery shall be abolished . Ergo

It is Antichristian .

But how doth he , for our learning proove , that our ministery shall be abolished ? very learnedly and profoundly thus .

That which is Antichristian shall be abolished .

Our ministery is Antichristian .

Therefore . It shall be abolished .

For this is the effect of that idle discourse of 2. or 3. leaves . to wit , pag . 46. 51. tending to proove , that Antichrist & all his offices shall be abolished .

In defence of these 3. arguments Maister Can gives not a word , good or bad ; but leaveth them and their Author , to shift as they may for themselves . Onely he is pleased , after his woonted manner , when he wanteth other matter , to minde his reader , how Maister Bradshaw againe rejecteth and relinquisheth the principles ( as he tearms them ) of some Non-conformists : As I hope Maister Can will in like manner of some Separatists , unlesse he mean to condemne his own Churches constitution , as Antichristian in a high degree .

The third Reason .

Fr. Iohnson .

Whatsoever ministery is such , as none can heare or have any spirituall communion with it , but in so doeing he shall worship the image of the beast , & receive his marke in his forehead or hand ; that ministery may none heare , or have any spirituall communion withall .

But the present ministery of the Church-assemblys of England is such , as none can have any spirituall communion therewith ; but in so doeing , he shall worship the beasts image , and receive his marke in his forehead or hand . Ergo ,

None may heare or have any spirituall communion therewith .

W . Bradshaw

This reason for the effect and substance thereof differeth not from the second . For what is it ( by his own interpretation ) to worship the beasts image , but to subject himselfe to the ministery and worship of Antichrists apostasy ? & how is it possible for him to proove this without running to the former reasons , for their help therein ?

For the proofe of the assumption , he setts us downe a tedious discourse of some sixe leaves of paper , teaching what is meant by the beast , and his image , and by receiving the marke in the forehead or hand . The summe and effect whereof is this .

That by beast we are to understand the Romane dominion , and Antichrists hierarchy , with all the offices , Laws and autority appertaining thereunto . That by worshiping the beasts image , may be under stood the yeelding of spirituall subjection to that Antichristian Kingdome , in the Laws office & jurisdiction thereof . That by receiving the marke in the forehead or hand , is ment publickely to professe and observe them ; not being ashamed of the beasts ways , And this doe all they who submi t to the government of Prelates , Priests , Parsons , Vicars , book-worship , &c.

Not to c●ntend about this interpretation ; but to suppose it true ; there is nothing in substance here brought to confirm the 3. Reason , but that which is in the 2. Reason . Namely : that therefore we worship the beast , in communicating with our ministery , because it is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy : and therefore it needs no other answere then that which hath been given allready .

Onely thus much further ; That for men so far forth to submitt to the government of such Prelates , &c. as our Laws doe require , is not to yeeld spirituall subjection to the Kingdome of Antichrist ; nor without shame to professe the beasts ways . For they may notwithstanding that , be subject to Christ and his Laws , and to fight against the beast : Yea though it should be granted , that insundry particulars they yeeld to some things , in theire use Antichristian , and unlawfull : which the best reformed Churches and ministers sometimes of ignorance or infirmity may doe , and yet remaine the Churches and ministery of Christ .

This also Maister Can passeth by , supposing it seemes , Maister Bradshaws verdict true of it , as an idle repetition of reasons , formerly delivered ; & for want of better store , to make shew of more variety , new dished , & with some other garnishment now served in againe .

The fourth Reason .

Fr. Iohnson .

None may heare or joyn in any spirituall communion with that ministery , which deriveth not their power and function of ministery from Christ , which is the head for the Edification of his Church , which is his body .

Such is the ministery of the Church-assemblys of England .

Therefore none may heare , or joyn in spirituall communion therewith .

W . Bradshaw

This Reason is the same with the first : For it is all one to be derived from Christ ; and to be sett by Christ in his Church . The other words which here he addeth , doe not more vary the force of the argument , then a new garment put upon the same witnesse , would make him a new witnesse , and indifferent from himselfe .

In the proofe of the Assumption he daubs sixe pages , bringing therein nothing but his olde brokery : the substance whereof is as followeth .

1 : That our ministers have not those offices which Christ hath given to his Church , for the worke of his ministery .

2. That it is the ministery of Deacons and Priests made by the Prelates .

3. That they were left in England by the Pope , and are still in the Kingdome of Antichrist , where they first rose ; and therefore it is divelish ; and by consequent , the more gifts and truth , the ministers bring with them the more they upholde the mystery of iniquity , and intice unto theire stolne waters , and hid bread .

4. That our Church-assemblys are not true visible Churches of Christ , unseparated from the world , not joined together in communion of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and submission to the government of Christ , but standing in bondage unto Antichrist .

The very rehearsall of which Reasons , is answere sufficient ; he being not able to proove any of these assertions , but either by the Assumption it selfe , that they are braught to proove , or one by another circularly .

Contrarily I affirm :

1. That there is no ordinary ministeriall office , that Christ hath given to his Church , for the worke of his ministery , but our ministers either have , or by the Laws ought to have the same .

2. That it is a ministery as opposite , for the substance thereof , to the ministery of popish Priests and Deacons , as light is opposite to darknesse .

3. That the Pope left not such Priests and Deacons as ours are , nor hath any such in his Kingdome : but that our Priests and Deacons have been under God and the Prince , the principall persons that have driven the Pope and his Priests and Deacons out of the Realm . that it is divilish , for any to say that they are divilissi , except they can proove it by better Reasons . That they that have the best gifts doe not intice any to stolne waters , or hidden bread , or to upholde any mystery of iniquity ; Except the Gospell of Jesus Christ , and the true and onely meanes of salvation , be the mystery of iniquity .

4. That our Church-assemblys , being such as by the Laws of the Land they ought to be are so far forth separated from the world , joyned together in the communion of the Gospell by the voluntary profession of faith , and freed from Antichrist , &c. as is sufficient to make them true visible Churches of Christ ; notwithstanding that many things may be wanting to the full and desired perfection of them . And I doubt not , but we shall be far more able at any time , by reasons out of Gods word to proove these points ; then ever Maister Iohnson will be to proove the contrary . And yet , it were easie to proove any thing by such a jugling methode of Reasoning , as Maister Iohnson hath gotten . For he can proove you the 1. reason by the 2. the 2. by the 1. the 3. by the 1. & 2. the 1. and 2. by the 3. the 4. hy the 1. 2. and 3. and every of them by the 4. and all foure by that question , which here they are brought to proove .

To this in defence of Maister Iohnson as justly liable to the forenamed Exception , Maister Can saith as litle almost , as to the former ; onely gives a snatch or a snarle rather , at that which Maister Bradshaw saith ; That there is no ordinary ministeriall office , which Christ hath given to his Church , but theire ministers either have , or by the Laws ought to have the same : and telleth his Reader , that he hath before ( but we know not where ) prooved that this is not true . And that Maister Bradshaw useth a juggling methode of Reasoning : theire ministers have such ; because by Law they ought to have them : and that a man , by the same manner of arguing , may proove , that there be no theeves , traiters , whore mongers , &c. within the Kings dominions ; because by the Laws every one should be true , loyall , chast ; which would be laughed at of all ; and yet the former is to the same effect , or else it serveth to no use at all , but to shew that the man had more will to doe mischiefe , then he had either witt or skill to accomplish the same .

But this is indeed not a juggling , but a meere cavilling and calumniating methode and manner of replying . For Maister Bradshaw doth not so reason , that therefore our ministers have them ; because by Law they ought to have them , but that our ministers either have them , ( as implying , that they doe ordinarily enjoy them and execute them , ) or ( whether they doe enjoy them & execute them , or no ) by our Laws they ought to have them . The very constitution of our Church , as appeares by the bookes themselves objected by Mr. Iohnson to the contrarie , enjoyning and requiring the same of them .

Nor is the clause here therefore unusefull : because it meeteth with such objections as Maister Iohnson elswhere bringeth from our Church-canons & constitutions . These sory and senslesse cavills therefore , beseeming such as defend an ill cause , and want sound matter to support it , doe evidently shew indeed ( as he saith of Maister Bradshaw ) that Maister Can hath more malice , than might , more will , than witt or skill to doe mischeif ; and more ability to calumniate , then to maintaine an orderly dispute .

The fifth Reason .

Fr. Iohnson .

None may heare , or have any spirituall communion with those ministers , which minister the holy things of God , and worke upon the consciences of men , by vertue of a false spirituall calling .

Such are the ministers of the Church-assemblys of England . Ergo

None may heare , or have any spirituall communion with them .

W . Bradshaw

This argument , which here he brings against our ministery , is the very same with the 2. For by a false spirituall calling , he meanes a calling proceeding from the Apostasy of Antichrist .

The proposition he prooves for brevity sake by five and thirty places of Scripture . And yet whosoever shall be pleased to take the pains to examine them , shall finde that neither severally , nor joyntly they proove the same .

The Assumption , where on the whole weight of the controversie leaneth , he prooveth onely by the first argument , whereby be prooved the Assumption of the 2. Reason , viz.

Because they doe it by vertue of theire ministery received of theire Prelates , from theire spirituall autority , which is usurped and Antichristian . And this is all this witnesse hath to say ; and all the answere it needeth : onely he wandereth into certaine objections and queries , grounded upon some supposed defences of some of our ministers , unto which I will ( though I need not ) give a briefe answere from point to point .

Here Maister Can lets all goe as it will : onely chargeth Maister Bradshaw with idle scoffing at Maister Iohnson for quotation of many Scriptures . Whereas he taxeth Maister Iohnson ( and it seemeth not unjustly ; for Maister Can his Proctor stands mute here in his defence ) for alledging a multitude of Scriptures , for that , which they neither severally , nor jointly proove . That which is indeed a foule abuse of Scripture , though with them overusuall . And Maister Cans office had been , ( if he could at least ) to have cleared his client of wrong therein offered to Gods sacred Worde , by prooving his proofes pertinent . For as for his twitting Maister Bradshaw for not quoting Scipture , his place required it not ; his office being not to proove , but to answere by destinction or deniall .

Fr. Iohnson .

Some say , they preach , not by vertue of theire ministery taken from the Prelates ; but by vertue of some other calling and authority .

W . Bradshaw

I know none , having received ordination from the Prelates , that need denie that they preach partly by vertue of the ministery which they have taken from them : no though they holde the calling of Prelates unlawfull . For what is the ministery which they have taken from them , for the substance thereof ; but ( after a triall of theire gifts ) a liberty and leave granted unto them to preach the word of God ; and administer the Sacraments , in such congregations as they shall be called unto .

Fr. Iohnson .

Why will such seeme to renounce that calling received of the Prelates , and yet blame us for doeing the like ?

W . Bradshaw

They may acknowledge a further calling , then that of the Prelates , and yet not therein renounce the calling received from the Prelates , but rather ratify the same . For the Prelates , being learned Divines , and having approoved of their gifts , and by words and letters testimoniall given liberty , to execute the ministery of the Gospell , they doe not thereby thrust them into a ministery , but they leave them to be further called or chosen , either by the people or those Patrones , unro whose fidelity the people have committed this charge .

And therefore this acknowledging of a further calling , maketh nothing to the justification of the proud and ignorant scisme of these persons .

1 , In this invective ( for so he is pleased to stile it ) Maister Can telleth us , there are many grievious errors bound up ; but one that for lying surmounts the●… all . And what is that , thinke we ? Surely this ; that the Prelates doe not thrus●… them into a ministery , but leave them to be called by the people , or patrones , &c. This he saith he hath , prooved elsewhere to be very false ; and it is strange to him , that they should dare to affirm so known and apparent an untruth .

But this is a sory cavill , since that Maister Bradshaws meaning is manifest , that the ministers are not upon the Prelates ordaining them , necessarily thereby putt into any pastorall charge or ministeriall imployment . Nor doth Maister Can proove any such thing in that place of this his rambling rapsodie , that he turneth us over to , for the justification of this his charge .

As for the other many grievious errors in this invective of Maister Bradshaw , since Maister Can hath not vouchsafed to tell us what they are , we have nothing to say to them , till he be pleased to detect them : and till then therefore we let him with the rest of his lavish language here , containing no new charge , but descanting and dilating in his tragicall outcries after his usuall guise upon the former , passe for the present .

2. Hee demandeth some good proofe for the things , th●t this bolde man ( remember you must , who speaks it ) here affirmeth . First that the people have committed this charge unto the fidelitie of patrones . 2. If they have , whither the thing be Lawfull or no ?

Now what be the things that this bolde man here affirmeth ? for Maister Can relateth but one ; and that one might easily ( if need were ) be confirmed out of those Authors that have written , either modern of ancient , of the grounds of such right of patronage , arising from the foundation of Parochiall Churches or the endowment of them , confirmed by our Laws , to which the whole body of the realme are parties : not to adde that , which is well enough known ; that many of them are no other then Feoffees in trust for the body of the Parish or congregation , being by their joinct act therein infeoffed . But Maister Cans office was to have disprooved it , if he could . For as for his other quere of the Lawfulnesse of the thing ; Maister Bradshaw speakes onely de facto : nor doth he deliver any one word in way of approbation of it ; much lesse laboureth , ( as Maister Can here chargeth him ) what he can , ( which is utterly untrue ) to maintaine so vile and wicked a thing , as he tearmeth it .

Nor , on the other side , if any other doe ( as he saith ) condemne all Patrones as Latrones , or any patrones by theire abuse of the trust reposed in them , have deservedly been so stiled , is that ought to Maister Bradshaw , who hath nothing here to answere for , but what he himselfe hath here avowed ?

But what is all this to the strengthning of Maister Iohnsons objection , & his demand , why such , as themselves renounce the calling received from the Prelates , blame him and his for the like ? or to the taking away of Maister Bradshaws direct answere thereunto ; that such men doe not wholly re●ounce it , though they acknowledge a further calling ; nor doe blame them so much for renouncing of it , as for their seditious and arrogant schisme , and their unchristian and uncharitable censure of others ?

Fr. Iohnson .

If they preach by vertue of an other calling , how then stand they ministers of that Church , where no other is allowed ? and how impose they themselves upon any of their parish assemblys , seeing the Lawes of the Land allow onely the Prelacy , Priesthood and Deaconry aforesaid ?

W . Bradshaw

Though this should be granted , which he in his ignorant simplicity doth suppose , that some amongst us , having been ordained by the Prelates , did exercise our ministery by vertue of an other calling ; and though the Law of the Land allow no other , yet ( especially so long as they are permitted to execute theire ministery by those in Authoritie , though it be by vertue of an other calling ) they are to be reputed ministers of that Church , that hath use of theire ministery .

Fr. Iohnson

How allso herein can they avoid , to be both intruders and hypocrites ? intruders , in taking upon themselves a publicke office in that Church against the publick Laws and constitutions thereof ; hypocrites , because they pretend in shew one thing to the Prince and State , and yet perform an other indeed ?

W . Bradshaw

All these inferences are upon a false supposition , yet if there were any such persons , they could no more therein be said to be intruders and hypocrites , then they of the Separation are . For though the publick Laws should be against any other calling , yet so long as they take an office by a good calling , they cannot be said to intrude themselves . Neither doe any such amongst us ( if there be any such ) pretend in shew any more , than they doe indeed perform . For so far forth as any differ in judgment from the publick Laws of the State , they are ready to professe it , being called thereunto ; and they practise onely that , which they judge Lawfull ; being as ready as any of the separation , to suffer rather then practise , approove , or assent unto any thing , which they judge unlawfull and unwarrantable .

Fr. Iohnson .

But suppose they had some other Lawfull calling ; yet they also retaining this unlawfull calling of the Prelates , this were but to halt betweene two opinions , and to set theire thresholdes by Gods thresholdes , and theire posts by Gods posts .

W . Bradshaw

How can such be said to retain the unlawfull calling of the Prelates , which protest against the same , and professe that they preach not by that , but by an other calling ? But if there be any such , that exercise their ministery by an other calling , besides that of the Prelates , they therein refuse obedience and conformitie to whatsoever in the Prelates calling they judge unlawfull ; and so doe not joyn an unlawfull and a Lawfull calling together : but reject the corruptions , retain the good , and supply the defect with an other calling . And this is the worst that can be made of it , but this is not to joine mans thresholdes to Gods , &c. but cleane contrarie to separate them as much as may be . And how can they be said to halt between two opinions , when so far one lie , as the trueth ( in theire judgment and opinion ) is established by publick Laws , they imbrace it , acknowledging theire subjection to the same Laws : and contrarily , where they judge that the Law swerves from the trueth , they take an other course . But still he beggs this ( which is the maine controversy ) that our ministers have received an unlawfull calling from the Prelates .

In the next place he labours to proove by reasons , that howsoever some pretend an other calling , yet it is evident that they execute all the dutys of theire ministeries , by vertue of their calling taken from theire Prelates . But what of that ? this will stand him in no stead , unlesse it be given him of almes ; That every ministery executed by vertue of a calling taken from the Prelates , is an unlawfull , and an Antichristian ministery . For proove it he can not : And if we should , except this also be given him : That our ministerie is executed ONELY by vertue of a calling taken from the Prelates ; and not by any other power or vertue besides , taken either from God or man . But let us see his Reasons .

Fr. Iohnson .

1. They can not stand publick ministers , except they receive of the Prelates the Priesthood and Deaconrie aforesaid .

2. They are excommunicated ipso facto , if they affirm , that they who are made Bishops , Deacons & Priests , are not Lawfully made , untill they have some other calling .

3. The people have not the liberty of the Churches of Christ , nor power in this theire estate to choose and submitt unto the true and Lawfull ministery appointed by Christ .

4. Without and against the peoples consent , they are by the Prelates alone silenced , deprived and degraded from exercising any ministety in those assemblys .

W . Bradshaw

These Reasons doe not proove that they exercise their ministerie ONELY by vertue of a calling received from the Prelates : and therefore whether true or false are nothing to the purpose ; and unworthy any further answere .

After this he fetcheth an other rode out , and laboureth to proove ; that our ministers ought not to suffer themselves to be silenced , and deposed from their publick ministery , no not by Lawfull Magistrates : which is not onely false and seditious , as shall appeare afterwards ; but also idle and impertinent to the present controversy : for if it were true , that ministers ought not to doe in this case , as ours doe ; yet this doth not argue , any corruption in the calling of their ministery , but a weakenesse onely i● the persons that execute it ; in yeelding further from their own right , then they need to doe . But let us consider the particulars , that he objecteth against our ministers in this respect .

Fr. Iohnson .

The Apostles , being true ministers of Christ , would not at the commandement of Lawfull Magistrates , leave to preach : much lesse should true ministers at the appointment of usurping Prelates . Neither did the Apostles make their immediate calling from God , the ground of their refusall ; but this , that they ought to obey God rather then man ; which is a duty required of all ministers & Christians .

W . Bradshaw .

1. Where he distinguisheth between silencing and depriving by Prelates , and Lawfull Magistrates ; it is in our cause , where the Prelates doe it by autority and commission from Lawfull Magistrates , a distinction without a difference .

2. Though the Apostles did not assigne theire immediate calling from God , as the ground of theire refusall in so many letters and syllables , yet that which they doe assigne , is by implication , and in effect the same with it : for it is as much as if they had said ; God himselfe hath imposed this calling upon us , & not man ; and therefore except we should rather obey man , than God , we may not forbeare this office , which he hath imposed upon us . For opposing the obedience of God to the obedience of man , he therein pleades a calling from God , & not from man : otherwise , if they had received a calling from man , there had been incongruity in the answere : considering , that in common sense and reason , they ought so far forth to obey men , forbidding them to exercise a calling , as they exercise the same by vertue of that calling . Else by this reason a minister should not cease to preach , upon the commandement of the Church , that hath chosen him ; but should be bound , to give them allso the same answere , which the Apostles gave ; which were absurd . So that by this grosse conceite of Maister Iohnson , there should be no power in any sort of men whomsoever , to depose a minister from his ministery ; but that notwithstanding any commandement of Church or State , the minister is to continue in his ministery .

But for the further answere of this his ignorant conceite , plainly tending to sedition , we are to know : that though the Apostles , Prophets and Evangelists preached publickly where they were not hindered by open violence ; and did not , nor might not leave their ministerie upon any humane authoritie & commandement whatsoever , because they did not enter into , or exercise the same upon the will and pleasure of any man whatsoever ; yet they never erected and planted publick Churches and ministerys in the face of the Magistrate , whither they would or no , or in despite of them . But such , in respect of the eye of the Magistrate , were as private and invisible as might be .

Neither weere some of the Apostles onely forbidden , so as others should be suffered to preach the same Gospell in their places ; but the utter abolishing of Christian religion , was manifestly intended in silencing of them . But our Churches , whereof we are ministers , are no private and secret assemblys , such as hide themselves from the face of a persecuting Magistrate and State , but are publick , professing their worship and doeing their religion , in the face of the Magistrate and State , yea and by his countenance autority and protection : and we are set over those Churches , not onely by a calling of our people , but allso by the authoritie of the Magistrate , who hath an armed power to hinder any such publick action ; who is willing allso to permitt and maintaine other true ministers of the Gospell in those places where he forbiddeth some . If therefore after our publick calling , to minister to such a known and publick Church , not by the Church onely , but by the Magistrate allso , the Magistrate shall have matter against us ( whither just or unjust , it skilleth not ) and shall in that regard forbid us to minister to our Church : I see not by what warrant in Gods word , we should thinke ovr selves bound notwithstanding to exercise our ministery still : Except we should think such a Law of ministery to lie upon us , that we should judge our selves bound to runne upon the swordes point of the Magistrate , or to oppose sworde to sworde : It being not the use of the higher powers , in such cas●s nakedly to forbid , but to set a sworde to the breast ; thereby to force them which shall refuse . And suppose the Magistrate should doe it unjustly , & against the will of the Church , and should therein sinne ; yet doth not the Church in that regard cease to be a Church , nor ought she therein to resist the will of the Magistrate : Neither doth she stand bound , in regard of her affection to her minister ( how greate and deserved soever ) to deprive her selfe of the protection of the Magistrate , by leaving her publick standing , to follow her ministery in private and the dark ; refusing the benefit of all other publick ministerie , which with the leave and liking of the Magistrate , she may enjoy .

Neither doe I know what warrant any ordinarie minister hath by Gods wo●d in such a case , so to draw any such Church or people to his private ministery , that thereby they should hazzard their outward State and quieth in the commonwealth where they live ; when in some competent measure they may publickly , with the grace and favours of the Magistrate , enjoy the ordina●y meanes of their Salvation , by an other : and ( except he have a call●ng to m●●●ster to some other Church ) he is to be content to live as a private member , till it shall please God to reconcile the Magistrate unto him , and to call him aga●ne to his own Church ; labouring meane while privately upon particular occasio●s offered , to strengthen and confirme in the ways of God , those people that are deprived of his publick labours . And I take it , to be the duty of the people , in such a case , if they will approove themselves faithfull Christians , and go●d subjects , so to submitt to the ministery of an other , as that by praier , and all other good , dutifull , and loyall meanes , they may doe their best indeavour to obtaine him , of whom against their will they have been deprived , and still to effect and love him as their Pastor : now if the people doe thus , then is that minister called to be silent , not onely by the Magistrate , but by them also , though with much grief .

Fr. Iohnson .

It is the duty of all ministers & Christians , as well as Apostles , to obey God and not man , when man forbiddeth that which God commandeth , or commandeth , that which God forbiddeth .

W . Bradshaw

True , but God no where ; that I can finde , commandeth , either a minister to mini●●er publickly in a publick Church maintained by the Magistrate , against the will and in de●pite of the Magistrate ; no more then against the will and in de●pite of the Church it sel●e .

Fr. Iohnson .

Uriah at the commandement of the King made an Altar after the fashion of that of Damascus ; but therein sinned , though he offered thereon ●uch burnt offerings as God had appointed , much lesse may the ministerie under the Gospell be framed after any new manner devised by man ; least of all after Antichrist ; though in that ministery many doctrines of the Gospell be taught , & such Sacraments administred as God hath ordained .

W . Brads●aw .

This Example of Uriah the Priest is altogether impertinent , unto that which goeth before . It being one thing upon the commandement of the Magistrate to forbeare the publick exercise of a true ministery : an other thing upon his commandement to frame a new ministerie , after a new manner devised by man , or Antichrist .

After this , he runns out of his way again to satisfy an objection that he had propounded & indeavoured ( as far as his learning would give him leave ) to answere before .

And which doth nothing at all depend upon any thing that goeth before in this argument : wherein he resembles some wanton currs , that take delight to runne round about to catch their own tailes : but let us see what it is he saith .

Fr. Iohnson .

Here againe concerning such as pleade , that they teach the truth , and manie excellent points of Doctrine ; It is to be observed , that none may therefore heare their ministerie under colour of learning the truth ; because in yeelding to heare and receive it from Antichrists ministerie , they defile the temple of God , & become the subjects of Antichrist .

W . Bradshaw

Where he againe taketh it as a matter , that must , whether we will or no , be granted unto him ; that our ministery is Antichrists ministery ; which needs no other answere then before . Yet thus much further ,

1. That no ministery whatsoever , ( so far forth as it teacheth the trueth of Christ , especially a trueth opposite to the Doctrine of An●●christ , ) is the m●nisterie of Antichrist . And those which shall submitt and subject them e●ves unto any ministery whatsoever , onely so farr forth as they minister and teach such trueth , cannot therein be said to defile the temple of God ; or to be subjects of Antichrist , but be obedient to Iesus ●hrist .

2. Our ministery , in divers Congregations of the Land at least , teach not onely many excellent points of Doctrine : but so much Doctrine , as ●s sufficient to the Salvation of him that beleeveth the same . Even all the main fundamentall points of Salvation clearely set down in Gods word . Yea , and for ought any can proove to the contrarie , all other lesse necessary points , so far forth as God hath revealed , and convinced theire consciences of the trueth of them .

3. Those amongst us , who make conscience of hearing our ministerie , doe not heare them under a colour of learning the trueth ; but onely to th●s very end and pu●pose , that they might learn the trueth , and therein the true way of serving and worshiping God accordin● to his own will .

Fr. Iohnson .

And not to speake of the many errors and falsehoods , which they also teach ; it is no new thing that the ministers of Ant●christ , should in divers things teach and bring the trueth with them : for when Satan can not by fal●ehood utter his wares , ordinances , ministery , worship , he will be glad to utter the same by teaching the truth .

W . Bradshaw .

1. Our Errors , whither for weight , or number , or qualitie , are not such , so great , so m●ny , but they may befall unto true Christians , whether ministers or people . Yea , ( as Maister Iohnson well knoweth ) many of the martyrs of Iesus Christ have lived and died , in more and greater errors of the ●ame kinde . And therefore well may he passe by this point .

Th●s is but a piece of his simple Rhetorick , carelesly to seeme to passe by that which he can not proove . For how many errors can he name or number , that he is able to justifie to be taught in the ministerie of our Church-assemblys ? What one truth of Religion can he name , that is not , or hath not been ( when just occasion hath been offered ) taught by some of our ministers ? I am not igno●ant , that in his treatises against M. A. H. and M. H. I. he mustereth a whole troope of pretended Errors : but suppose them to be so many dist●nct Errors , how doth he proove they are taught in our ministerie , or that they are required by Law to be taught ?

There is ●●deed a conformity and subscription required to some of them , & a Canon that requires , that the late Canons be read in Churches , some times in the yeare : as all●o , that the booke of Articles be read , at the first entrance upon an Ecclesiasticall charge , with a testification of Assent unto it . But is this ministerially to teach the Errors contained in the said bookes ? may not a man in the weaknesse of his judgement , and in infirmity , at his first entrance into a calling , conforme and subscribe unto some things , not so warrantable and true , & yet not teach them for trueths ? yea may he not for all that , teach doctrine in it se●fe d●rectly contrary to those untruthes ? yea and yet satisfy also the minde of the Law , which being humane , and therefore not allways perfect , may command that very truth to be taught , wh●ch being thorowly followed , will destroy some untruths ; , which the same Law all o requires ?

Further , it is one thing to reade the Canons to the people , the●eby to declare unto them , what is required at their hands by their governers ; an other th●ng , to teach and justify the errors contained in them : and to testify an assent unto some errors , is not ministerially to instruct the people in those errors .

2. Though it be no new thing that the ministers of Antichrist , should in divers things bring the trueth with them ; Yet this is a new thing , and never heard off before , that the ministers of Antichrist should teach the whole trueth of Ie●us Christ , for the substance thereof : that they should oppose directly and zealously , against the maine and fundamentall doctrines of Antichrist ; that they should professe him to be Antichrist , and that man of sinne ; & to the shedding of their bloud should exercise their ministery against Antichrist and his Kingdome , protesting against him and his service . Were it not new and strange , that a man should be counted a true subject unto a Prince then , when he doth openly protest against him ; counting him an usurping tyrant , and imploying all the wit , power and strength he hath against him ? Such subjects of Antichrist are our ministers , or by the Laws such they ought to be . Could he be said to be a minister of Christ , that yeelding to some externall rites , and professing some doctrines of Christian faith , doth notwithstanding directly , openly & professedly renounce Christ and his service , and professe h mselfe to be an enemy to him , and his Kingdome ? if it holde not in the one , is it not both a new and strange thing , that it should holde in the other ?

3. Maister Iohnson out of his knowledge must teach us , how Satan can be said by teaching the truth , to utter his own ministery or worship : or how a Satanicall ministery can be uttered , when in and by the ministery , nothing but the truth of Christ is administred . What is the ministerie of Sata● , but the ministery of error ? & how can the ministery of error be uttered by teaching the truth ? or how can a ministery be said to be uttered by a truth , when it is the ministerie it selfe that uttered the truth ? Surely no more then a marchandize can be said to be uttered by selling of wares . And were it not a wonder , if a man should utter his bad merchandize by selling good and sound wares ? Satan and Antichrist indeed together with some truths , seeke to utter much falsehood , which otherwise ( they know ) would not be received . And many of our ministers are content to yeeld to some things , which they judge not so convenient ( if it did otherwise seeme good to the State ) to the end they may utter the truth . But that like Antichrist and Satan , our ministers should propound this unto themselves , to teach some trueths to this end , that they might thereby utter falsehood and lies , false ministeries and worships , is a malitious imputation , and can never be justifyed ..

Here Maister Can having all this while been silent , like hounds at a losse , & having let Maister Iohnsons fond objections , & as frivolous reasons passe , as sufficiently by Maister Bradshaw answered ; begins at length again to open and bark after his wonted manner ; but , as Currs unmanaged , that run after a wrong game , and by theire yelping , indeavour to draw the rest of the pack after them .

1. Maister Bradshaw ( saith he ) asketh what errors we can proove in theire Church , & is so audacious to affirme , that those set downe by Maister Johnson are pretended . And hereupon he reckoneth up no lesse then 70. taking up well neere 2 whole pages , which he saith , have been published under our own hands , and professed to be poisonfull leaven of Antichrist . As among the rest . 1. The Popish names and offices of Arch-Bishops . 2. Lord-Bishops . 3. Their titles of primacy and Lords grace . 4. Their visitations , &c. 5. Their dominions , revenues and retinue . 6. Their black Chimer , white rotchet , and other popish apparrel . 6. Chancellors . 8. Deanes . 9. Subdeanes , and so forward , to Parsons , Vicars , Parish Priests , Chaplens , Clarks , Sextines , &c. For he will be sure to bring in the same persons , more then once , under divers names , rather then misse of his account . Though he saith , he could to these adde many a store of vile errors more . It is marvell , when the poore Sextine could not escape him , how the ringing of bells , and making of graves , and sweeping the Church , and shutting the dores , came not in among the rest , as vile , ( not abuses but ) errors in his beaderoll , but they are , it may be , among those that he saith he could , but doth not adde .

Whereas Maister Bradshaw neither demandeth what errors can be prooved to be in our Church ( which he denieth not some to be ) but how many errors he can name or number , to be taught in the ministery of our Church-assemblys . And all that Maister Can therefore here prates , is but meere smoake , unles he can proove his whole beaderoll of vile errors , ( as he tearmeth them ) the black chimer , the white rochet , & the Sexlines office , among the rest , to be taught , yea and generally taught , in all our Church-assemblys : and againe proove them to be errors so vile , that they make the Church-assemblys , where they are taught , to be no Churches of Christ . For without this presumed , no such separation from our Church-assemblys , as they maintaine , and Maister Iohnson undertakes to demonstrate , allbeit these were granted all to be errors , can be necessarily thence inferred .

As for his calling them a whole troope of pretended errors , which Maister Can also taketh exception to , and calleth unreasonable daubing ) he might well so doe for divers causes .

1. Because , it seemeth , Mr. Iohnson had done there , as Mr. Can here , made distinctions without difference , to make his list of them the longer ; & set down as distinct errors , points in substance the same .

2. Because he might deeme some of them at least , such as can not be prooved so to be . For what others have said , is nothing to him ; nor is he bound to answere to it , or to make good what such have said .

3. Because Mr. Iohnson it is likely relateth them there onely , as Mr. Can doth here ; & they might well be tearmed , what ever they were in themselves , in regard of him , pretended , untill they be prooved by him so to be .

And Lastly , the question is , not so much here what they are , but it being taken for granted , that they are such as they are pretended to be , whither they be generally taught in our Church-assemblies or no .

As litle therefore to the purpoe is all that that followeth , that the errors above named are by autority commanded , and constantly practised ( in every Church-assembly , think we , a black Chimer , a white rotchet , a Lord-Bishop , dispensation for boyes and dolts to have benefices ? Yea or reading of homilies , or a dumb ministery ? ) and upon all occasions defended in publike and private ; and there are terrible Canons against those that speakes against our Liturgie , Ceremonies , Church-government and ordination . All this nothing touching ( though never so true , as part of it is nothing lesse then true ) the point in present agitation .

2. To Maister Bradshaws demand of the contrarie , what one truth of religion is not taught by some of our ministers . Mr. Can answeres .

1. That this is not materiall to the point in controversie ; seeing that none of them teach true Doctrine , but in a false and Antichristian calling ; taking that for granted still , that remains still to be prooved : and yet is that materiall , that Maister Bradshaw here saith to Maister Iohnsons charge , and the answere to his objection .

1. That if we will beleeve the Non-conformists , Maister Bradshaw hath small cause to brag thus of our preaching , since that our ministers are for the most part ignorant asses , that either can not , or doe not preach ; & a number of those that doe , prophane & heathenish Orators , the grace of whose preaching lyeth in affected eloquence , fond fables , &c.

For Maister Can , or who ever else he be , that shall passe such opprobrious tearmes upon the most part of our ministery , ( how esteemed of in the reformed Churches of Christ abroade , the testimonies given in the writings of the principall men of note among them for learning and piety there unto ; and theire sending over of theire young Students to learn a methode of preaching from the ministers in these parts , doth evidently shew ) I will say no more ; but as the angel sometime to the Prince of detracters and calumniaters , in whose traine Maister Can may well claime a prime place , The Lord rebuke thee , Satan .

But neither doth Maister Bradshaw here brag of our preaching ; wherein yet I suppose we may truely say ; that our Churches are not inferior for number of able men , yea and painfull ministers , to any of the Reformed Churches of Christ in foraine parts : Nor , though a number , yea the most part of our ministers were such as is here said , yet either would that any whit contradict ought that Maister Bradshaw here implieth ; to wit , that the generall body of necessarie saving trueth , is entirely taught by some or other of our ministers ; or justifie the necessary separation that these arrogant Schismatikes undertake to defend , from the ministerie or Church-assemblys of those that are not such .

3. That , though some of them deliver many sound trueths ; yet they lay not the axe to the roote of the tree ; they seeke not to suppresse the evils that raign most amongst them . And what are those ? devised service , false ministerie , Antichristian government , &c.

But 1. here is the question pittyfullie begged : that taken for good & granted , that all the controversie is about ; that our ministerie is false , and our service devised ; in such sense as they intend : which neither he nor Mr. Iohnson have been able hitherto to proove .

2. Admitt the government established with us were such as he saith , ( but neither doth attempt here , nor is able to proove ) yet neither is that an evill raigning in our Church-assemblys ; nor would the discussing of such controversys profite the people much more ( though Maister Can so inform us ) then our loud & long crying out of judgement , judgement onely against swearers , drunckards , usurers , whoremongers , &c. ( as if this were all the subject matter of our preaching in these parts : ) & much lesse then the opening and pressing of the maine points of Christian faith and piety : which it is to be feared many of Mr. Cans faction are too raw in ; though they can prate and pratle at large , more by roate than by reason , of a Churches calling and constitution .

3. To that Maister Bradshaw saith concerning , not the defence of reading , ( as Maister Can fal●ely relateth him , but ) the reading of the booke of Articles & Canons in the Church : that the reading of them is not ministerially to teach the errors ( if any be ) in the said bookes : Not approoving the same , but disapprooving it rather , as a weakenes in those , that supposing some errors therein contained , yet testify their assent thereunto ; distinguishing between reading them as things required by theire governers , and justifying the things contained in them .

To this I say Maister Can replieth .

1. That if that which Maister Bradshaw saith be true , yet the fault is not the les . Which is nothing at all to the purpose .

2. That he speaketh falsely herein : for it is enjoyned them as a part of theire office , and none may by Law doe it but they . Which though it were granted to be as Mr. Can affirmeth ; yet would it not proove that the reading of it so enjoyned , were ministerially to teach the things in the said booke contained ; nor that Maister Bradshaw therefore speaketh untrue therein . Though ministers be enjoined to publish in the congregation his Majestys letters patents , in behalfe of such as have sustained great and grievous pretended losses , by casualty of fire or wrack at sea , &c. and none may by autoritie publish the same but they : yet it followeth not therefore , that they doe m●nisterial●y teach the relations therein contained .

3. If they doe not teach them for trueths , then it must be for lies and errors .

But it followeth not , if ( as M. Bradshaw saith , and so he saith , nor doth Mr. Can d● proove him there●n ) they teach them not at all .

4. His answere here , he saith , ●s quite besi●es the point ; & that he seeks me●rely to cozen his Reader . And why so ? Forsooth , Mr , Ioh●son spe●k●s of Arti●les an● Canons , v●le and wicked things , ( though neither he nor Mr. Iohnson shew them to be such , ) and to this he replieth , ( answereth he should say ) may not a man in the weaknes of his judgement and infirmity , at his fi●st entrance into a calling , conform and subsc●ibe to some things not so warrantable & true , &c. Ergo he may conform to the damna●le Articles and Canons , reade them to the people . By the same reason of argu●ng , he may be a Iew , a Turk , a Heathen , any thing .

What a shameles either beast or bedlam is this ? for I know not whither a man should tearm him . Where doth Maister Bradshaw say any such thing , or frame any such argument ? that which he saith onely is this ; that a man may at his first entrance ●nto a calling conforme and subscribe to some th●ngs ●ot so warrantable and true , either ou● of weakenes of judgement ( supposing them to be warrantable and true , when indeed they are not ) or out of infirmity ( yeelding there unto contrary to his own judgement concerning them ) and yet ( ●n his ministery afterward ) not teach them fo trueth Now how this agreeth what Mr. Can here chargeth upon him , or how by ought that is here said , liberty is given for any man to be Tu●k , Iew o● H●a●hen , or any thing , let any indifferent person judge .

For as for Mr. Cans raving clamours of vile , wicked , damnable Canons and A●ticl●s , and his appeale for such outcr●es to I know not what othe●s , for distemper , it may be , not wholly unlike himselfe ; we are now ●o enured to them , that we regard them no more , than the neighbouring borderers d●e the none of the roaring downfalls of Nilus .

5. Running back again , as in a wilde goose race , & suspecting , it seemeth , that he had not sufficiently taken away some of Mr. Bs. answeres to some of Mr. Is. former reasons , under colour of discovering some of Mr. Bs. senseles shif●s , he taketh occasion to make an Almond leape backward , & very solemny relateth .

That whereas Maister Iohnson prooveth our ministery to be unlawfull and Antichristian , because neither theire offices , calling nor administration is according to Gods word ; but all taken from Antichrist ; Maister Bradshaw childishly tells us , that true pastors and ●eachers may want some accessory parts of theire offices , 〈◇〉 . wh●ch answereth nothing to the point , nor is more to any purpose , then if a convicted traitor would seeke to proove his cause to be otherwise for that he wants some accessory parts of a true fuhject .

Thus this man of a bra●en brow , & ( it is to be feared ) of a seared conscience , not childishly , but malitiously , as one desperately bent to forge and vent any thing , though never so untrue , tending to the disgrace of his adversary , especially , if at the very instant it might not be diserned . For he points us to no place , where either Maister Iohnson so argueth , or Maister Bradshaw so answereth . Maister Iohnsons second reason runnes mainly upon this , that our ministery is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy . But in all Maister Bradshaws discourse in way of answere thereunto , there is not a title of our ministers wanting of some accesso y parts of their offices : much lesse any such answere as is here related to any such axiome or position of Maister Iohnsons , as it is here said to be returned unto . Or , if he had an eye to Maister Iohnsons first argument , for the proofe of the Assumption of his first reason , ( for his arguments too oft interfere ) the Assumpt●on whereof , he saith , is averred by this ; that the offices , calling , entrance choise , ministrat on and maintainance of our ministers wer● never ordained by Christ ; but are derived from Antichrist and his apostasy : Maister Bradshaw as the booke it selfe sheweth you , and did then shew him , not in answere to the Assumption , much lesse in answere to this related for the proofe of it , which he answereth to other wise at large , but in answere to the proposition ( which is th s : The pastors and teachers spoken of Eph. 4.11 . have t●eire offices , callings administration , and maintainance ordained by Christ in his Testament ▪ a●d of which he distinguisheth ) saith , it is not true , unles by offices , callings and administration he understand the substantiall or esse tiall parts thereof otherwise it is false : for that those very pasto●s and teachers , there spoken of , may ( not want , as Maister Can he ●e● late●h him , ●u● ) have divers accessory parts of their offices , callings , and administration , not ordained by Christ in the new Testament . Thus you see how shamelesly he twise in one breath , belyeth Maister Bradshaw affirming him 1. to say ; They may want ; when he saith , they may have , And 2. to return this as an answere to that assertion of Maister Iohnson : both which the booke it selfe before him gave him directly the lie in . It is childish indeed , to lay this as an imputat●on upon Ma●ster Bradshaw that he doth not relate in particular , what accessory parts , such may have ; when it is his own part , if he will reply , to take away his distinction , by prooving that no such can be had . But it is not ch●ldish but knavish , thus wickedly and maliciously , out of his own mischeivous brain-pan , to forge and frame such absurd and senslesse answers , and then to father them upon others . In steed ●herefore of that he addeth ; that th●s is a● if a conv●cted traitor , would proove his cause to be otherwise , for that he wants some accessory parts of a true subje●● , ( a doughty plea indeed , & well worthy such a patrone , as here enters it , ) I may much better subjoine , that a convicted Liar , ( such as Maister Can both here and elswhere sheweth himselfe to be ) wants not some accessarie parts , but some essentiall , of an honest man .

6. At last , remembring himselfe , and returning out of his late raving fitts , to his right witts again ; he begins at length to take notice of what he was indeed to replie to ; but having no great minde to be doeing with it , he is willing to part with it againe as soone as he cometh at it .

Touching the distinction , saith he , betweene reading the Canons to the people , and not teaching the Errors contained in them I shall leave it as another demand how they can proove that t●ese falsehoods and lies may be read , in the manner that they are , and yet be neither taught nor justified .

You see how soone the man hath done dispatched all in a trice : and h●w soundly he replyeth , and in replying refuteth ( for so he should doe ) what his answerer hath averred ; by demanding of him how he can proove that , that he saith . Though indeed he cutteth the Answerers words of by the halves , and leaveth out that clause , that giveth a full answere to his demand , ( his broad language sett aside , ) to witt , as declaring what is by their governers required , not as teaching or justifying any errors therein contained .

Fr Iohnson .

Beza saith , though Antichrist teach the trueth , ( which sometimes he doeth ) to the end he may m●re easily seduce to beleeve his lies , yet we are to stop our eares against him ; lest under this pretence we be deceived by him .

W . Bradshaw .

Well , but it is yet to proove , that our min●sters are Antichrists , and that they teach the trueth to any such wicked intent : the contrarie is manifest ; when many of them in regard of the times are content to yeeld to some colourable untrueths , that they may thereby purcha e liberty unto them●elves , to advance the trueth of Christ . They yeeld to some th●ngs in appearance Antichrist●an , that they might with more l●bert●e fight a a●nst Antichrist .

Fr. Iohnson .

Who knoweth not that Antichrist and his ministers are hypocriticall friends to Christ , under the name of C●rist fighting against h●m ?

W . Bradshaw

But who knoweth not that our min●sters , if they be such as our Laws require them to be , are ●worne Enemys to Antichrist : and in the name of Christ , and under some of Antichrists own rites , doe fight against him , and resist him unto blood ? and who knoweth not , that many of them have died for Christ at the foote of Antichrist .

The sixth R●ason .

Fr. Iohnson .

If the present ministerie of the Church of En land be a strange ministery then is it not Lawfull in the wor●●ip o● God , to heare it , or have any ●pirituall communion therewith .

But such is the ministery of the Church-assemblys of England .

Therefore it is not Lawfull in the wor●●●p o● God to heare it , or have any spirituall communion there with .

The Assumption is manifest ; for a strange ministery is that which is not by the Law ordained and given for that worke ●s them●e●ves heretofore have published ; and as is prooved in the first Rea●on .

W . Bradshaw

This reason differeth not in substance from divers of the former : for what is it to be a strange ministerie , but to be a ministerie that is not let by Christ in his Church ? which is his first reason : but to be a ministery , which deriveth not the power and function from Christ ? which is his 4. reason : but to be a ministery that worketh upon mens consciences by vertue of a false spirituall calling ? which is his 5. Reason . Might he not with a great facility , out of this methode of reasoning have brought forth 7000. reasons , as these 7 ? But how doth he proove the Assumption of his reason ? by sending us back again , as you may see to the 1. reason . So that all the reason of this reason is borrowed from the first reason ; and is answered allready in the answere thereof .

But before he passeth to the next reason , he runs out after the wonted fashion , into an idle discourse , nothing at all appertaining to the argument in hand ; bringing in some idle observations upon the story of Corah , Dathan and Abiram , & allso of Naaman , falsely misapplyed unto our Church-assemblys and ministery . For he taking it as granted , or as a thing that could not be denyed him ; that our ministery is Antichristian , and that our worship is idolatry , he makes our ministers and people , oven the best of them , wors than Corah , Dathan and Abiram , and them which were of theire conspiracy , & our assemblys and worship as bad as the temple of Rimmon , & the idolatrie therein performed . And where he brings the example of Naaman , as brought by some of us to justify our joining with our Church-assemblys ; I perswade my self he doeth against the knowledge and light of his own conscience belye us : & that there cannot be one of us brought forth , that ever made this plea . We holde it as unlawfull ( as themselves ) outwardly & but in appearance to joine with idolaters , in their idolatry ; & yet wee see not warrant why every particular act , that in a large sense is idolatrous , adjoyned to Gods true worship , we should forbeare our presence , as the true worship it selfe : Or that our presence for the true worships sake alone , should in respect of some point of false worship thereunto annexed be , ( as he speaketh ) the submitting our bodies to a strange worship : Especially when we are not particular Actors in it , but onely present , beholding it with griefe , and suffering it in others for the true worships sake , unto which it is adjoynd . If this should be held unlawfull ; then can no man present himselfe with a good conscience , at any publick worship of God wheresoever ; because ( except it should be stinted and prescribed , which Maister Iohnson holds to be a false worship , ) he can have no assurance , but that some errors in matter or forme will be committed : yea if he bee a man of understanding and learning , he may presume in a manner , that in the publick worship some error or other , in matter or forme , greater or lesser will be committed , before which he must present himselfe . But what ? were the Iewish Synagogues in Christs time free from all parts of false worship ? the Scripture witnesseth the contrarie . Did they , when Christ came into their assemblys , forbeare them ? the Scripture confirmes the contrary . Was Christs presence then , ( as here he saith our presence is ) a very bowing down unto them ? was he also therein an unconscinable dissembler ? did he therein imbrace the bosome of strangers , breake his covenant , goe a whooring with the inventions of man ? for such fire as this he spitts at us if not , why should it be such a sin in us , who have not such eyes to peirce into the impietie of mans traditions , as our Saviour had ?

1. To this Maister Can replieth , that if it be unlawfull , as Maister Bradshaw saith , outwardlie , and but in appearance , to joyne with idolaters in theire idolatry , then Maister Bradshaw sheweth himselfe an unreasonable man , in persuading them to return to return to our service ; for that it were by our own grounds to joine with idolaters in their idolatry .

A peremptorie reply , you see , but without proofe ; unles you will take I know not what grounds , of I know not whome , ( for none are named , nor so much as once pointed to ) for currant paiment in a point of such importance .

2. He demandeth what Scriptures witnes , that there was false worship in the Iewish Synagogues , and of what kinde it was ; And requireth of this proofe , that Christ was present where and when the same was pra●●ised .

Which so farforth as it is by Maister Bradshaw affirmed , is no hard matter to proove : for taking false worship in a large sense , as he there saith it may be , ( in way of answere to maister Iohnsons indistinct and indefinite speech of it , ) for any error either in matter or manner of performance , it is apparent by our Saviours own refuting of them , that the Scribes and Pharisees , the chiefe & common teachers of those times , were very faulty in either . And it is as apparent , that our Saviour notwithstanding the same , did usually frequent theire assemblys : nor is it likely , that for his presence they forbore their usuall manner either of preaching or practise .

And this is all that he affoordeth us in defence of maister Iohnsons sixt Reason . For of the next , as indeed it well deserved , he hath not a word .

The seventh Reason .

Fr. Iohnson .

If the present ministerie of the Church of England be not from heaven , but of men , then it is not Lawfull in the worship of God , to heare , or have any spirituall communion therewith .

Such is the ministery of the Church-assemblys of England .

Ergo , It is not Lawfull in the worship of God , to have any spirituall communion there with .

The Assumption is evident : because God hath not appointed the ministerie of the Church-assemblys , but man ; as appeares by theire booke of ordination : and if they will say the contrarie , let them shew their calling out of the word of God .

W . Bradshaw

This Reason is the very same with the 4. 5. and 6. and hath no ground or proofe , but from them : and therefore is answered also in the answere of them . And this may be sufficient to shew that our ministery is from heaven , when so malitious and exercised an adversary , whose whole religion seemes to lie in opposing to our ministery , can say no more against it .

The second sort of Reasons taken , as is pretended , forth of our own writers .

The first reason taken from the 12. Arguments .

Fr. Iohnson .

All will worship is sinne .

To heare or communicate with the present ministerie of the Church-assemblys of England in Church service , in manner and forme prescribed , is a will worship .

There fore to heare or communicate with that ministrie is sinne .

W . Bradshaw

This Syllogisme is Sophisticall , consisting plainlie of foure terms , Except , he make his conclusion this ; therefore to heare or communicate with that ministerie in manner and forme prescribed , is a sin . For the third argument being will worship ; all the other termes they being no parts there of , must be in the conclusion , if so be the Syllogisme be true , as every Sophoming boy in the universitie knoweth : and therefore he must either exclude them out of the Assumption , or include them in the conclusion , which he cannot doe ; it being his intent by these arguments to proove ●t a sin , to communicate therewith , not onely in manner and forme prescribed , but any other way . And therefore he Sophistically , or rather in ignorant and witles simplicity , concludes a generall from a speciall , thus .

It is will-worship to communicate with our ministery in manner and forme prescribed ,

Therefore it is a sin to communicate therewith , whether in manner and forme prescribed , or any other way .

Whereas a childe may know this ; that an action done in some manner and forme prescribed may be a will-worship and a sin , which done otherwise may be true worship . A man may therefore ( if need be ) grant both his premisses & denie his conclusion . Neither will it help him ; that the Author of the twelve Arguments concluded against the Ceremonys , in the same forme of words , that he doth here against the ministerie : it being plaine by the scope of his whole disputation , that though he doe not expresse these words in manner and forme prescribed in the conclusion ; that yet he understandeth them : it being not his purpose to dispute absolutely against all use of them , but against the use of them in that manner and forme that they are prescribed .

But whatsoever his conclusion is , the assumption is false , yea though it should be granted , that in our ministerie there is some will-worship performed . Yet let us see how he prooves the assumption .

Fr. Iohnson .

All parts of divine worship and service imposed onely by the will and pleasure of man upon the communicants in divine service , & that of necessity to be done , is will-worship .

But to heare and communicate with the present ministerie of the Church-assemblys of England , in Church service , in manner and forme prescribed , are such parts of divine worship as is aforesaid . Ergo ,

To heare and communicate with the present ministerie of the Church-assemblys of England , in manner and forme prescribed , is a will-worship .

W . Bradshaw

The proposition is taken forth of the twelve arguments , and there fore needs no answere . The Assumption is false ; but he prooveth it thus .

Fr. Iohnson .

1. Man imposeth this ministery upon man , and God in his word hath not appointed these offices and callings : neither required any to communicate with them in Church service in manner and forme prescribed .

2. The people stand bound to heare and communicate with them upon pain of suspension , deprivation , &c. and God must have no solemne worship in England , except it be with communion to the same . Ergo ,

To heare and communicate with the present ministery , &c. is a part of divine worship imposed as aforesaid .

W . Bradshaw

The first part of the antecedent is false , & is not prooved by any ground taken from the twelve arguments . For not man onely , but God allso , hath imposed this ministery : and hath appointed , for the substance thereof , the offices and callings of the ministers of our Church-assemblys : & hath required us to communicate with them in Chnrch-service , in that forme & manner , which the Law in the true meaning thereof , prescribes ; and which many at the least doe practise .

Neither doth the consequent follow upon the second part of the antecedent ; for though humane Lawe under never so greate punishments , should binde us to never so great corruptions in Gods service ; yet so long as we doe not actually communicate in those corruptions , but onely in the true parts of Gods worship , our communicating is never the worse for the said Laws of men , but rather the better . Neither doe we herein stand more bound , then Maister Iohnson and his people doe , when they are in theire Dominions . So that it makes as much against communicating with their ministery , as ours . Though therefore ( as the author of the 12. arguments hath indeavoured to proove , ) the ceremonys in controversie should be held to be a will-worship ; and therefore a sin to use them in Gods worship ; yet it followeth not by the same argument , that it is a sin to communicate with the ministery of our Church-assemblys , no though it should use the said ceremonys ; much lesse where and when it useth them not , as in some places , or at some times , it doth not , neither is it by Law required so to doe .

Here Mr. Can forbearing to vindicate his brother Iohnsons Logick , which this his whole discourse throughout sheweth him never to have had much acquaintance with , or to justify either of the axiomes denied , in which the proofe of his assumption wholly consists , doth after his olde wont .

1. Renew his former cavill concerning the Law mentioned by Maister Bradshaw , what Law he meanes ; and what the true intent and meaning of that Law is ; as if who were true ministers , could not be known without it ; ( which is a silly and senseles inference ) For answere whereunto we shall require him to the place where the question was first mooved , or the cavill rather first made : withall adding , that , if Maister Bradshaw had a good cause in hand , he would have referred his readers to the Prophets , Christ and his Apostles , & not used such carnall and idle talke . Belike he would have Maister Bradshaw doe as his brother Maister Iohnson alledge Scripture for matter of fact , to shew what our ministers doe , or are , or what the government they live under requires of them , or intendeth they should be and doe , and so both abuse Scriptures , and make himselfe ridiculous , as his brother Iohnson therein hath done .

2. He telleth us , he can not beleeve Maister Bradshaw in that ( which commeth in on the by , ex abundante ; for the answere takes away Maister Iohnsons argument without it ) that it is Lawfull to communicate in that worship where the ceremonys are used ; And hereupon breaketh out in his wonted manner , like the sheering of Swine , with much cry , and litle wooll ; charging this inconsiderate man ( as he pleaseth to stile him ) with rashnes and folly , that durst without any reason more than boldenesse , justify that that his brethren have by many sound arguments , manifested to be evill and unlawfull : and accordingly serveth us in a long Messe , not very savourie , out of a nameles author , ( no country-man of ours what ever he be ; his language bewrayeth him , ) who taking for granted , that kneeling used in communicating of the Lords table is idolatrous : & that those that joine in communion with such as so doe , though themselves sit , doe communicate with them , when they are committing the very act of idolatry , doth thence inferre the unlawfullnesse thereof : and with this Authors discours , and his own descant there upon to raise the bulk of his booke , he filleth 3. whole pages .

But neither is it materiall what Maister Can believeth in this case , nor what his nameles author saith , till he bring better proofe for what he speaketh ; since that we are neither tied to subscribe , either to the beliefe of the one , or to the sentence of the other .

The second Reason taken from the twelve Arguments .

Fr. Iohnson .

It is a sin against God , for Christians to partake with the ministery of such , as accounting themselves to be servants of Iesus Christ , yet doe in the execution of their ministerie give speciall honour to Antichrist and his officers .

But the ministery of the Church of England is such . Ergo ,

It is a sinne for Christians to partake therewith .

W . Bradshaw

First I deny the proposition : the true and best ministers of Iesus Christ , that ever were or shall be , since the Apostles , may in theire ignorance or weaknesse doe some act in theire ministery , that may bring some speciall honour to Antichrist , and yet Christians may Lawfully , and without sinne , partake with such in their ministery . It being not necessary , that whosoever partaketh with a ministerie , should partake also with the accidentall corruptions thereof .

He tels us , like a bolde and blinde baiard ; that the proposition is manifest and cleare to any , that have an eye of reason , and any light of divinitie shining in it ; And yet it hath not so much as any colour of trueth ; but in the eyes of such owles and bats as himselfe is . The proposition in the twelve arguments , unto which he would equall and paralell his , is this : It is a sin against God , for him that is by way of excellency a servant of Iesus Christ , ( without a precise and direct warrant from him , at any time , especially in the solemne worship of God ) to give speciall honour to Antichrist and his members : What ? must it needes follow from this ; that it is a sin to partake any manner of way , with such a ones ministery , as shall in any measure commit such a sin ? must the joyning with them in any other parts of their ministery , needs be a communicating with them in this sin ? he bidds us see for this 2. Cor . 6.14 , 17. Rev. 18.4 . But what is this to the 12. arguments , from whence he saith this reason is taken ? and to what end should we see those places ? except he had first made us to see , that our ministers in their ministery are infidels and Belials ; that their ministery for the substance thereof is unrighteousnes and darknesse ; that the God we serve in our ministery is an idole ; that our assemblys are Babylon : and all this because some thing happily is done by our ministers , which ( and yet contrary to their intent ) is some honour to Antichrist . For except all this be granted unto him , these texts are of no force to confirme the proposition .

The Assumption is as false as the proposition . Neither doth it follow from the assumption of that argument of the 12. from which he would ground it . For though it should be granted ; that to use the ceremonys in controversy in manner and fcrme prescribed , were to give speciall honour to Antichrist , and his officers ; yet it doth not follow , that the ministers of our Church-assemblys are such , that in the execution of theire ministery give speciall honour to Antichrist , and his officers . For some of our ministers , from whome he separateth , doe not in the execution of their ministery use the said Ceremonys at any time : neither doe any of our ministers at all times in the execution thereof , use them , neither are required so to doe .

The Assumption notwithstanding he proceedeth to proove thus .

Fr. Iohnson .

Such a conformity to Antichrist and his officers , as is not onely besides the word of God , but in a speciall manner derogatory to all Reformed Churches , that have departed from the Synagogue of Rome , is a speciall honour to Antichrist and his officers .

But the execution of the ministery of the Church of England is such . Ergo ,

The execution of that ministery in manner aforesaid , is to give speciall honour to Antichrist and his officers .

W . Bradshaw

The proposition is word for word in a manner taken out of the 12. arguments , and therefore for this controversy not to be stood upon , whether it be true or false .

The assumption is false , and hath no ground at all from the 12. arguments . For though it should be granted ; that to use the Ceremonys in controversy in divine worship , is such a conformity to Antichrist and his members , as is specifyed in the proposition : yet no man , except he have some crack in his braine , can from thence inferre , that the execution of our ministery , is such a conformity ; especially then when in the execution thereof they doe not use the said Ceremonys ; whice none doe at all times , and some doe never .

He proceeds to proove the assumption not by any ground taken from the 12. Arguments , but by some of the fragments of his own former reasonlesse Reasons : and therefore the maine issue of the argument , lying not upon any thing in the said arguments ; this second reason of his can not be said to be taked from the 12. Arguments . And therefore they are no wise guilty of his schisme , nor doe any ways here in this place patronize the same .

The third Reason taken out of the twelve Arguments , the London ministers Exceptions , and the Abridgment , &c.

Fr. Iohnson .

If such be the State of the ministery of the Church-assemblys of England , as they are bound in their ministration unto such things , as the using of them in Church service , in manner and forme prescribed , is a will-worship ; a giving of speciall honour to Antichrist and his members , a performing of honours more than civill , even religious , onely to a humane power ; a warranting of the like use of Iewish , Turkish , Paganish or Popish observations , a doeing of Schismaticall actions ; an having of Spirituall communion with Papists , in the mysterys of theire idolatry and superstition ; a mingling of prophane things with divine , an using of unlawfull things in divine worship ; an administring of Sacraments that are not of divine institution ; a solemne acknowledging of speciall homage to the spirituall usurped authority of Lo●d-Bishops ; an using of humane Traditions in Gods worship , as necessary to salvation ; an apparent meanes of damning of many Soules ; an observing of a Liturgy , which in the whole matter & forme thereof is too like unto the Masse-booke , &c. then it is not Lawfull to communicate with the ministers in their ministery .

But such is the estate of the ministery of the Church-assemblys of England .

Therefore it is not Lawfull to communicate with them therein .

W . Bradshaw

Maister Iohnson thinks surely , that in this argument he hath out of our owne writings for ever disgraced our ministery , but whether here or in the arguments following he deale faithfully with our writers , I know not , his bad dealing in this kinde , we ●ave discovered in part before , and doth most evidently appeare in one particular following , wherein he most shamefully and loudly , as a man void of all common honesty and grace , maketh the ministers of Lyncolne to affirme , that the Prelat●s are revealed to be great Antichrists , and theire ministery and constitution to be great troublers of the Church in this day , and that it can not but be very sinfull and hurtfull to retain or communicate with them . The Devill himselfe would have beene ashamed in this open manner to have tolde such a lie : and therefore he is to be trusted no further then he is seene , and here in his loudnesse is the more to be suspected , that where he rehearseth manie harsh , bitter and unsavoury speeches against our ministery and worship , as written by some of our selves , that retaine communion with the ministery and worship of our Church-assemblys ; he doth not quote the particular places , but onely referrs us to the Autors in generall , as though we had nothing else to doe , but to reade over whole bookes to finde out his allegations ; or that we must take them upon his word to be faithfully reported : but let us suppose , that our men have so written ; yet there is no consequence in the proposition . For what if our ministers were bound to say Masse , to sing Mattens , to worship the Virgin Mary , to acknowledge the Popes Supremacy , &c. yet it might be Lawfull to communicate with our ministers in theire ministry ; except that in the execution of their ministery they submitted unto that which they were bound unto : it being one thing to be bound , and an other thing to fulfill the bond . He might contrarily with as much wit and understanding have reasoned thus : If this be the estate of the ministerie of the Church assemblys of Rome , that they are bound in their administration to the renouncing of Antichrist , and all his idolatry , offices & will-worship , to conforme onely in their ministery to the Gospell of Iesus Christ , and to such ordinances , as are agreeable to the same ; then it is Lawfull to communicate with them in their ministery and worship . Maister Iohnson would quickly discerne the inconsequence of this proposition . And why ? because in the execution of theire ministery , they fulfill not this bond : and yet he cannot deny , but that they are by a stronger bond , even a divine bond , bound unto this , than our ministers to the contrary .

The consequent he saith is prooved by the ministers of Lincolne-shire , abridgement , pag . 17. but to passe by his depraving of them before touched , no such matter can be concluded from the words which he here citeth ; yea though ●e had dealt faithfully in the citation of them . For though it should be granted , that some act of spirituall fornication should be done in our ministery ; that we are to separate from idolaters & Antichristians , and to be as unlike them as may be , in theire religious observations ; though God doe beare a detestation to idolatry , & all the inticements thereof , as unto spirituall whoredome : though we ought to be ashamed of the monuments of idolatry , and cast them away with detestation ; though we should be in some danger by them to be corrupted in religion , by conforming unto idolaters in theire ministery and worship ; though keeping communion with such ministers should be a speciall meanes to harden them in theire sins ; though the Prelates were revealed to be great Antichrists ; though the godly learned have constantly taught , that Christians are bound to forsake and cast of the ministration ; ceremonys and religious customes of Paganes , Iews , Antichristian idolaters and hereticks , and carefully to shun all conformity with them therein ; yet it doth not there upon follow , that if the ministers of our Church-assemblys be bound as aforesaid , that then it is not Lawfull to communicate with them in theire ministerie .

Maister Iohnson therefore must be put to this pains , to proove his consequent .

For further proofe of the former consequent , he brings six reasons more out of his own olde and fusty horne of store , which proove the consequent just à baculo ad angulum : to which it shall be needles to give answere , they being proofes cleane besides the purpose of these reasons ; which is to justify theire schisme by grounds taken from our own writings .

The consequent then of the proposition being evidently false , the assumption , though it should have never so much ground from our own writings , will stand him in no steede .

The fourth Reason taken out of the Admonitions to the Parlament .

Fr. Iohnson .

If the offices of Arch-Bishops , Arch-Deacons , Lord-Bishops , Suffraganes , Parsons , Vicars , &c. be Antichristian and contrary to the Scriptures , then the people of God may not communicate with them in their ministery .

But the first is true .

Ergo the latter also .

W . Bradshaw

The consequent is false , and he goeth not about to proove it , by any thing taken out of our own writings , but by a stale proofe that hath been answered before : and therefore it requires no answere . Onely thus much of free bounty : That the offices of Arch-Bishops , &c. quatenus tales , are not of the essence of the ministery of our Church-assemblys , but meere accidents .

The assumption therefore will stand him in no steede , whether it be true or false ; & therefore I leave it to their maintainance , from whome he saith he borroweth it .

The fifth Reason taken out of the offer of conference .

Fr. Iohnson .

If the propositions propounded to be maintained , in the Offer of conference be true , then is it not Lawfull to heare or have any spirituall communion with the present ministery of the Church-assemblys of England ,

But those propositions are true . Ergo ,

It is not Lawfull to have any spirituall communion with the same .

W . Bradshaw

The consequence is false , and doth not follow from the said propositions .

1. Though it should be granted , that all matters meerely ecclesiasticall , Lawfully imposed upon any Church , are such , as may be concluded necessarily from the written word of God : yet in a true constituted Church , some matters meerely ecclesiasticall may be imposed through humane frailty , that cannot be so concluded .

2. Though all humane ordinances used onely or specially in Gods worship , whereunto they are not necessary of themselves , were simply unlawfull ; yet is not every such humane ordinance of that nature , that it maketh the Church and ministery where it is used , to be a false Church and ministery much lesse those Churches and ministery wherein it is not used , but enjoyned onely .

3. Though it were generally granted of all , that every true visible Church of Christ is such a spirituall body politick as is specially instituted by Christ , or his Apostles , in the new testament : yet it will not thence follow , that those Churches and ministers are not to be communicated withall , that have any thing in or appertaining to the constitution thereof not instituted by Christ ; or that such Churches are not true visible Churches .

4. Though every true visible Church of Christ , or ordinary assembly of the faithfull , hath by Christs ordinance , power in it selfe immediately under Christ , to elect and ordain , deprive and depose theire ministers , and to execute all other Ecclesiastica●l censures : yet will it not follow from thence , that all they are false Churches , & not to be communicated withall , that doe not , or by the Laws of man are not suffered to use that power ; neither is it sure the meaning of them who offer the conference , to maintain that they are no true visible Churches of Christ , that cannot use that power , but are therein subject to others : for one may by Christs ordinance have a power to doe that , which yet , in regard of man , he hath no power to doe .

5. Though the Pastor of a particular congregation should be yeelded to be the highest ordinary Ecclesiasticall officer in any true constituted visible Church of Christ ; yet can it not thence be concluded , that those Pastors are false Pastors , who are outwardly by mans Laws subjected to a superior ecclesiasticall officer . The father ordinarily is the highest officer in the family ; yet if the Magistrate subject the father in some matters appertaining to the family to an other , though therein , it may be , he may doe the father some wrong ; yet doth not the father thereby become a false father , or the family a false family . Admit then that this prerogative is due to Pastors , to have no spirituall officers superior unto them ; yet is it not so essentiall unto them , that without the actuall use and possession of it , he cannot be a true Pastor . And yet take a true visible Church in that sense , which the officers of the conference doe , viz. for a particular ordinary assembly or congregation , and then in our own Churches , the Pastor is the highest ; there being no ecclesiasticall officer in any such Churches above him .

6. Grant this , that it is the office of every true Pastor , to teach and governe spiritually one congregation immediately under Christ : can it from hence be concluded , that they are no true Pastors , which governe more congregations then one ; or which are subject , in some outward things , to some others besides Christ ?

7. Admit , that the offices of Provinciall and D●ocessan Bishops were contrary to the word of God : must it needs there upon follow , that those ministers and Churches , which are under them by the Laws of man , are false ? such especially who obey them onely in things which they judge honest and Lawfull , & who under this subjection doe no more , than they would doe , if they were not subject at all , unto Bishops ?

A man must therefore bring a better head and witt with him then Maister Iohnsons , that by the propositions of the offer of conference ( how harsh soever they may seeme to be ) can conclude it unlawfull to joine and communicate with our Church-assemblys .

For the proofe of his consequent , he brings nothing out of our own writ ings but onely to give his Reader thereby a vomit , some of his own Cole-wortes , not twise , but twise twenty times sodden , to which we give him leave to looke an answere from some as idle-headed as himselfe .

Maister Can having lien still a long time , as one fast a sleeps , nor regarding either his brothers Iohnsons credite , very shrewdly appeached , or his sory Reasons so shattered , that it would require a very skilfull Surgian indeed , either throughly to salve the one , or make any limme almost of the other stand upright ; yea dispairing , it may seeme , of any good cure likely to be done upon either ; yet now beginneth againe to rouse up himselfe , and set up his bristles , as if he meant to d●e something . And

1. To Maister Bradshaw answeres to the severall propositions he subjoyneth some one or other , such as they are , frivolous and impertinent exceptions .

To the first , That though it should be granted , that in a true constituded Church , some matters meerely Ecclesiasticall may be imposed through humane frailty : yet this helpeth theire cause nothing at all , in regard that a false worship an Antichristian hierarchy , an unlawfull ministery there from , is imposed upon , and hy the people slavishly submitted unto .

But 1 , how is all this prooved ; unles Maister Cans word shamefully ever and anone begging the main points in controversy , goe for good ?

2. How doth this any way confirme Maister Iohnsons consequence , which is this , or else none , from this first proposition ; All matters meerely Ecclesiasticall Lawfully imposed upon any Church , are such as may be concluded from the written word of God . Ergo , it is not Lawfull to have any spirituall communion with the present ministery of the Church-assemblys of England .

For neither is Maister Cans rablement any part of this Antecedent , nor doth the proposition , though granted , inferre ; that wheresoever ought swarving from that rule is imposed , there enfueth presently a nullity of a true Church .

To the 2. That though every humane ordinance be not of that nature , as to make the Church and ministery false , where it is used : yet some are , and such are in their parish assemblys , as by theire owne principles ( saith he ) we have shewed .

But what is this again , ( to passe by his naked assertion of our parish-assemblies , and his concealed principles of I know not whome , of as much weight with us , as his own word ) what is this , I say , to proove Mr. Is. consequence ? All such humane ordinances are unlawfull . Ergo the Churches where any such are used are no Churches , or the Churches where they are onely enjoyned , and not used .

To the 3. Though it were generally granted of all , that those Churches and ministerys are to be communicated with , that hav● some thing in or appertaining to the constitution thereof , not instituted by Christ ; yet it will not thence follow that we may with such , as in their constitution were wholly false , but such are theirs .

You see still Maister Cans word must goe for an Oracle : which if it may doe , all the controversy will be soone at an end .

To the 4. Grant this , that all are not false Churches , which doe not , or by the Law of man are not suffered to use their power .

If you grant it , then your brother Iohnsons consequence is unsound . Yea but saith Maister Can , your congregations doe altogether this power ; & stand under that which was taken every part from the Devill & Antichrist , if some of yours speake true themselves .

Yea , but good Maister Can , if any so say , what ever they be , be pleased to tell them , that we believe neither you nor them , nor are bound so to doe ; till better proofe be brought then either your brother Iohnson or you here bring .

To the 5. admit , that those may be true pastors , who are outwardly by mans Laws subjected to superiour ecclesiasticall officers . Though for this , in the margine he saith , he shall expect to see some proofe ; whereas he ought rather , if the assertion be unsound , to have disprooved it . And yet is it not true of al pastors of any Separatists living in this land ? as I presume there be , are , or have been such .

But if it be admitted , Maister Iohnsons consequence is rejected as inconsequent ; who from this would inferre , that our Churches are no true Churches , because the pastor ought to be the highest officer in the Church : the vanity of which inference Maister Bradshaw by strong reasons , ( though this shameles beast say , he never useth any one reason to confirme any one thing that he saith ) hath evidently discovered ; but he deigneth not to take notice of it . Yea , but yet , saith he , it can not hence be concluded , that theire ministers are true ; seeing neither theire offices , callings , administrations , &c. are agreeable to the word of God . Yet it can not hence , &c. Whence meaneth the man , think we ? because a true pastor may yet by mans Laws be outwardly subjected to some superior ecclesiasticall officer ? who goeth about , or is so void of sense as to conclude in this manner : A true Pastor is the principall officer in his parish , ( for that is the proposition that Maister Iohnson here propoundeth . ) Ergo , The ministers of the Parish-Churches in England are true ministers ? Or on this wise . True Pastors may yet outwardly be subjected by mans Laws to a superiour Ecclesiasticall power . Ergo , The ministers of the Church-assemblys in England are true ministers ? But these are frames of Maister Cans own contriving ; who wanting better worke , it seemeth , or having nothing to doe , rather then he will be idle , & yet he were better be idle and doe nothing , then be so idely employd , busieth himselfe about knitting of knotts , ( but very loose ones , you see ) that he may shew his skill at fast and loose in unknitting of them againe .

To the 7. ( for the sixt happily escaped his hand ) that if the offices of provinciall and diocesan Bishops be contrary to the Scripture , then necessarily that ministery , which is derived from it , ( what it ? from the Scripture , think we ? for there is nothing else to referre this it to . But belike he forgat himselfe , as he oft doth , and would say , them : ) must needs be so also , and that the Papists from the writings of the conformist have drawn this conclusion . And I hope then it must needs be Authentick .

But this is one of Maister Iohnsons Colewortes Maister Bradshaw spe●ks of , oft served in before , and hath been sufficiently piscussed in his proper place , in answere to the second Reason of the first sort .

The sixt Reason taken out of divers treatises .

Fr. Iohnson .

If these Assertions be true , that that Church calling for which the Scripture gives no expres warrant , is meerely usurped , and utterly unlawfull ; that as it is not Lawfull to bring in any strange doctrine , so it is not Lawfull to teach the true doctrine under the name of any other function then is instituted by God , &c.

But the aforesaid Assertions are true . Therefore

It is unlawfull to have communion with that ministery .

W . Bradshaw .

This argument , being a collection out of our writers , doth not differ from the former , as himselfe granteth : and therefore needes no further answere .

The consequent is false , and he prooves it not by any of our own writers , as he ought to doe : but still brings us proofes of his owne musty aumbry .

The Assumption therefore , borowed out of our own writers , will doe him no pleasure .

The seventh Reason taken out of the tenth of the 12. Arguments .

Fr. Iohnson .

It is a sin against Christ , the sole head of the Church , to have spirituall communion with those ministers , which in theire ministration of divine things doe either by word or deed solemnly professe and yeeld a spirituall homage to an usurped spirituall autority in the Church .

But so doe the ministers of the Church-assemblys of England .

Ergo , It is a sinne to have communion with the same .

W . Bradshaw

The proposition is false , and hath no ground from that proposition in the 12. Arguments , unto which he would match , and forth of which he would draw it . The proposition there is this :

It is a sin against Christ the sole head of the Church , for any one of his ministers , especially in the administration of divine things , either by words or signes solemnly to professe and acknowledge , a spirituall homage , to an usurped spirituall autority in the Church . Can he conclude his proposition from this ? doth it hence follow , that because our ministers in their ministery , if they conforme , doe in some measure , in infirmity or ignorance , commit some such sin ; that therefore it is a sin to communicate with them in other divine things , wherein they doe not commit the same sin ?

Hee tells us , that the proposition may not be gainsayd , and why doth he tell us so ? because the Author of the twelve Arguments saith ; his proposition may not be denied . As though there were just the same Reason for the one as there is for the other . But why may not the proposition ? Because all spirituall power usurped over the Churches of God , is an Antichristian authority ; and to communicate with those ministers , which professe spirituall homage to Antichrist ; which must needes be a sin against Christ , the head of the Church . A deepe and learned reason ! It can be no sin against Christ to communicate with them , which in some action professe spirituall homage to Antichrist ; except in their communion they also professe the same homage , which like an ignorant disputant , he maketh no mention of . As though to joine with one that doth evill , in that which is good , is allways to joine with him in the evill ; as though to joine with a glutton in eating necessary food , were to joine with him in his gluttony , or to joyn with a blasphemer in the act of his blaspheming in rescuing an innocent out o● the hands of robbers , were to communicate with him in his blasphemy . But herein he propounds onely to play the Ape , imitating the Author of the 12. arguments , who saith , his proposition may not be gainsaid ; because all spirituall power usurped over the Churches of God , is an Antichristian autority ; and to professe spirituall homage there unto , is to professe spirituall homage unto Antichrist , which must needes be a sin . But what ? is there no more reason in that reason , then in his ? if this be a good argument to proove that proposition for which it is brought ; must his argument needes be as good to proove his proposition ? what , because it is a sin to professe speciall homage unto Antichrist , must it needes be a sin also to communicate with them , who doe professe some homage unto Antichrist ? what ? to communicate with them in other matters ?

The Assumption is false as the proposition ; and hath no ground from the 12. Arguments . For though it were granted ; that to use the controverted Ceremonys in manner and forme prescribed , were even in the solemne worship of Christ by solemne signes to acknowledge a Spirituall homage to a sp rituall usurped Autority of Arch-Bishops and Bishops ; yet doth it not there from follow , that our ministers in the administration of divine things , doe the same . For none of our ministers doe always in the administration of divine things professe any such h mage ; and some doe never professe it ; and those who professe it , when they doe professe it , propound and intend no such matter .

He prooves the Assumption thus .

They preach the word , and administer the Sacraments by vertue of theire calling received from the Arch-Bishops & Bishops , &c.

The vanity whereof hath beene sufficiently shewed allready ; hee therein begging one of the stale reasons , and not borowing any thing from the 12. arguments .

That which followeth , whereby he would proove , that the authority of L. Arch-Bishops and Bishops is usurped ; which he makes the second part of his assumption ; is alltogether idle , and to no purpose , and done onely of malice to the Author of the 12. Arguments . For otherwise had he herein intended the convincing of the said Author , and of them which are of his minde , ( which is the onely use of his latter sort of Reasons , and which can serve for no other use , it had been sufficient to have produced his assertion without his proofes . For ) that had been enough to declare the Authors conceit .

He concludes , crowing as if he were some Cock of the game , that had picked out the eyes , and broken the neck , of all that have been set against him . And thus , saith he , the cause is yeelded by themselves . And is it not ( think we ) finely yeelded ? is it not a field stoutly wonne ? is it any marveile , that hee makes such outcries against the whole Christian world , that will not follow such a leader ?

But I leave him to his vain conceits of his own cause ; trusting that any sober and judicious Christian will be able to discerne therein his fond and ignorant vanity . And whereas in the Answere of his Reasons , I have omitted to answere to many particular passages ; All things considered , I shall not need to aske him pardon : I should rather have cause to expect thanks , if I had to deale with a reasonable and good natured adve●sary .

Here Maister Can weary of his worke , and willing to end his reply , but not weary of his wicked woont of lend and palpable lying , having repeated some of Mr. Bradshaws concluding words , and returning him them again ; to display and traduce Mr. Bradshaws manner of answering , canteth on this wise .

The proposition , saith he , ( Maister Bradshaw he meaneth ) is false ; the assumption is false : But for proofe , a man may finde as soone a needle in a botle of hay , as any for the things he boldely denies .

But to this froath and falsehood , I answere ,

1. Suppose all were true that Maister Can here saith ; though it may be , he scarce knoweth what he saith , when he requireth Maister Bradshaw to proove the things that he denies . For is any man bound to proove the things that himselfe denies ? or is there any , I lay not reason for it , but sen●e in it , to require any man so to doe ? Mr. Bradshaw might as well require Maister Can to proove our Churches to be true Churches , and our ministers true ministers ; for those be the things , to use his own words , that he boldly denies .

But we will suppose his meaning to be , if he knew at least what he meant ; that Maister Bradshaw hath brought no proofe , that is rendered no reason of his deniall . It was not needfull he should . It is sufficient for the answerer , as for the defendant , to deny , and require proofe of the adverse party , the accuser or plaintiffe , who●e part it is to make what he saith good . Let us make our case Maister Cans a while . Suppose one writing a Libell against Maister Can should thus argue in it Syllogistically .

No bastard ought to be a minister of the Gospell .

But Ma●ster Can is a bastard ▪ was not begotten in Lawfull mariage , but his mother had him by an other man then her ●usband .

Ergo , Maister Can ought not to be a minister of the Gospell .

Or Enthymematically thus :

Maister Can had bastards by divers women , when he was sometime in England , hath inticed women to folly , that have repaired to him for conference in private hath caried these things so closely that they could not hitherto be discovered , hath related to some , what others have spo●en in great secrecy .

And is therefore a Negromancer , and workes by the Devill .

Put case now Maister Can were to answere hereunto ; would he not speake as he saith Maister Bradshaw speakes , if he were at least to answere Logically , according to the rules , and in tearms of Art , ( which yet seldome he doth : ) The proposition is false ; the assumption is false , the antecedent is false : the consequence is false ; all is false , every jot of it . Or could any man justly blame Maister Can for so doeing ? telling him , that he denyeth things boldly , but bringeth no proofe for the things he denied ? or would Maister Can himselfe , thinke we , acknowledge any equity in it ; for his adversary to require of him , to disproove the things charged upon him , to proove all that is said by him to be false ? and yet just such is Maister Cans dealing with us . He saith , the Church of England our mother , is no true Spouse of Christ , but an harlot ; our ministers are idolaters , that is , spirituall adulterers : our people all bastards , begotten out of Lawfull wedlo●k : our government Antichristian : our discipline devillish : our worship flat idolatry ; with many other the like outcrys against us . And when we deny there things , he either biddeth us proove the contrarie ; or telleth us onely at the best , that some say so .

2. I answere , That though this were sufficient for Maister Bradshaw to answere by bare deniall of those things , that Maister Iohnson objecteth , and Maister Cans part were , if he will reply , to take away such his answere , by confirming and making good Maister Iohnsons assertions ; yet in answere to this very argument now in hand , as also very frequently elswhere , he rendreth reason of his deniall , both of proposition and assumption : which being a trueth so evident and obvious to every ones eye , that doth but reade over Maister Bradshaws answere here ; had Maister Can had either any shame in his forehead , or wit in his head-piece , he would never have adventured in so shamefull , or shameles rather , a manner , to vent so evident an untrueth , against his owne eyesight and the open view of all men , and thereby to crase & crack , yea to wrack , not his conscience onely , but his credite too .

But this is not either the firstly Maister Can hath here tolde , nor the first time that he tolde this lye . For we have had it more than once before : and as they say of some addicted to that vice , that they tell some lyes sometimes so often to others , that at length they come to believe them themselves ; so it may be it is befalln Maister Can in this case , that he hath tolde his Reader this untrue tale so oft , that his own eyes now can hardly persuade him , though it be never so evidently false , not to yeeld credit thereunto . Or it may be it is with Maister Can , as some say of the Estrich , that when she hath hidden her head in a bush , she thincketh no body can see her . He is one peradventure of those , of whome the Greeke historian saith , that when they winke themselves , they thinke others see not them . Sure either he hoped , that his Readers wanting Maister Bradshaws booke , being not every where to be had , to see his words , would beleeve him upon his word ; ot else , that his confident and constant avowing of it , would beare men down , and make them not believe theire owne eyes ; and his wilfull wincking cause them not to see what they saw . I say no more for the present , but God amend him , and give him grace to see his sin .

Howbeit , that we may see , that the man hath yet some metall leaft in him , as well for matter of replying as lying ; ( though for this latter he is much better of the twain ) be maketh way hereunto , by telling us , that moreover the points in controversy , which are of greatest weight and moment , he either puts quite of by a fine trick , they need no answere , ( but of this Maister Can gives no instance , & it may well goe with the rest to make his fardell of fittons the fuller ) or else answereth to them besides the matter .

Now for an instance of this latter , as having forgot to discover it when time was , and yet saying ●ow the very same in effect he said then , save that he leaves out the Divell & Antichrist , here , ( the usuall flowers of his raving rhetorick , ) and it was but the very next page before that he said it ; but mildoubting belike his Readers short memory , and loath that , what but even now he sayd , and would now say over again , should be lost , he fetcheth us a jump backward to the fourth proposit●on of the fift Reason of the second sort : there , saith he , the proposition being , that every true visible Church hath power , &c. his reply ( you must remember Maister Can speakes it , with whom to answere is to reply ) out is , that All are no f●lse Churches , that doe not us● this power , &c. And thus having taken Maister Bradshaw tardy , ( as he supposeth ) he followeth him hard at the heels , and layeth on loade , to be even with him for alltogether at parting ; for this is the last bl●w he reacheth at his whole answere . And is not this , saith he thinke we wittily answered ? we say , from theire principles , that a true Church can not be without power ; but theire Churches are wholly without it . For answere he tells us , a true Church may wa●t the use of it . We say so too But doth it follow , because a man in a sound hath not the use , for the time , of that life which is in him therefore one may be quite without life , and yet not dead ? To this effect he reasoneth or else , as Paul said of some , he understood not what he said , nor whereof he affirmed , but spake evill of the things which he knew not .

Thus silly soule , or sot rather , he thinketh he hath hit Mr. Bradshaw home , and paid him to the purpose , for attempting in this manner to reply , ( as he speakes ) on his brother Johnson .

And surely were this his last charge on Maister Bradshaw true , that he spake evill of t●ings he knew not , yet were not Maister Bradshaw so bad as Maister Can that speaketh evi●l ( if lyes and untruths be evill ) so oft and so notoriously against his own conscience of those things , that seeing evident before his eyes , he knoweth to be otherwise .

But for the thing it selfe , Maister Bradshaws answere is sufficient , yea compleate . For

1. To Maister Johnsons maine hypotheticall proposition , consisting of 7. severall single propositions taken out of the offer , & making up its antecedent , he answereth directly by denying the consequence in generall .

2. He proceedeth in particular to render reasons , ( which yet Maister Can most falsely affirmeth that he never doth ) distinctly , of his former deniall of the consequence in generall , in regard of the severall single propositions or axiomes there●n contained . And to the same , as it taketh in this fourth proposition or single axiome , and so maketh up a syllogisme thus conceived :

If every true visible Church of Christ , or ordinary assembly of the faithfull , hath by Christs ordinance power in it selfe , immediately under Christ , to elect and ordain , deprive and depose theire ministers , & to execute all other ecclesiasticall offices ; then it is not Lawfull to heare or have any spirituall communion , with the present ministery of the Church assemblys of England .

But every ●ue vi●●b●e Church hath such power , &c. Ergo . he subjoyneth this reason , why he denieth the consequence of the proposition , so made up ; because that , allbeit eve●y true Church had such power , as is here mentioned by the ordinance of Christ ; yet it would not foll w that our Churches either not using , or restrained by humane Laws f●om the exercise of such power ( which were all at most that could be prooved ) were the efore no true Churches

And this was a full and sufficient answere to Maister Iohnsons argument , as it is there framed . For that every true Church hath such power Maister Iohnson prooves ndeed by the ●ayings of such & such ; but that our Churches have it not , he prooveth not at all , Being propounded in Maister Cans forme as now it is , a man might well demurre on both parts of it . For as for the proposition , setting mens sayings aside , Maister Can I suppose , will hardly be able to produce any one direct place of Scripture , where such an absolute power is given by Christ to every particular Church-assembly , as is here related ; or to produce out of Scripture any one evident example of the exercise of the same . And for the Assumption , which he , silly man , thinking cock sure , never once lookes after : supposing such a power by Christs ordinance conferred , upon every particular Church-assembly , he w●ll never be able to proove , that our particular Church-assemblys have it not , to wit , by Christs ordinance ; unles he will , after his brother Iohnsons wise manner , run round in a circle , and proove that therefore they have it not , because they are no true Churches . For all that he will be able to produce , is but matter of sact , to wit , that either they use it not , or are by humane Laws restrained from the use of it . And as soundly by the same reason he may proove , that Paul had no such power , as the other Apostles had , or was not therefore a true Apostle , because he used it not . 1. Cor . 9.4 , 5 , 6 , 15. Or , that those whome the Jewish governers excommunicated , for the profession of Christ Joh . 9.22 , 34. had not power by Gods Law of accesse to Gods house , and to the assemblys of his servants .

Thus at length after a tedious winding and turning and making forward and backward , as the blast of Maister Cans breath hath blown with us , we are arrived at the end of his roving reply .

Hence forward he hath taken on him the office of an answerer , wherein how he hath acquit himselfe , the sequele will shew .

W . Bradshaws Reasons or Arguments , tending to proove , that it is a sinne to separate from the publicke ministery of the Church-assemblys of England : Directly contrarie to Maister Iohnsons own Reasons , and usually in that regard , made in the same moode and figure .

The first Argument .

It is a sin to separate from that ministery , which is set by Christ in his Church , for the worke of his ministery .

But such is the ministery of the Churchassemblys of England .

Therefore it is a sin to separate from it .

The proofes which he bringeth to confirme the maine proposition of his first Reason , will serve to proove this .

The assumption may be prooved thus :

The ministery of true pastors and teachers is the ministery which is set by Christ in his Church .

The ministery aforesaid is the ministery of true pastors and teachers . Therefore ,

It is a ministery set by Christ in his Church .

The proposition is his own .

The assumption I proove thus :

The ministery which hath in it all things essentiall to the office and calling of true pastors and teachers , is the ministery of true pastors and teachers .

But such is our ministery , therefore

It is the true ministery of true pastors and teachers . I think he is not so simple as to denie the proposition . The assumption is prooved thus .

To have such gifts as Christ ascended up into heaven to give for the worke of his ministery ; to be outwardly called to that worke by such a Church , as professeth the fundamentall points of the Gospell ; to instruct the people committed to theire charge in the doctrine of the Law and Gospell , to administer unto them the holy Sacraments of Christ , and to be their mouth in prayer unto God , are all things essentially appertaining to the office of true pastors and teachers .

Such is the ministery of the Church-assemblys .

Therefore it is the true ministery of pastors & teachers .

If he deny the proposition , he must shew what other matters doe essentially appertaine unto their call●ng , which yet he hath not done .

For confirmation of the Assumption , it shal be sufficient , that we can set forth unto him such a ministerie insundry of our Church-assemblys , of which all these points may be truely verifyed , their conformity to the State , and theire sin therein ( if any be ) notwithstanding .

The second Argument .

The ministerie of our Church-assemblys is not the ministery of Antichrists apostasy .

Therefore it is a sin to separate from the same .

The consequent must be true , untill he can bring forth any other exceptions against our ministery , then such as appertain to the ministery of Antichrists apostasy .

The Assumption is prooved thus .

The ministery of the Church-assemblys of Antichrist is of Priests and Deacons .

But the ministery of our Church-assemblys is not the ministery of Priests & Deacons .

Therefore it is not the ministery of Antichrists apostasy .

The proposition is his owne .

The assumption , if I should follow his learning , I might proove thus :

The ministery of true pastors and teachers is not the ministery of Priests & Deacons .

But such is the ministery of our assemblys . Ergo , &c. And for the proofe of the assumption , I might send him back again to my first argument ; but I will leave such a kinde of disputing to himselfe , as his owne peculiar , and proove it otherwise thus :

That ministery , which in the main & essentiall facultys and offices thereof , is opposite to the maine and essentiall facultys , functions and offices of Priests & Deacons , is not the ministery of Priests and Deacons .

But such is our ministerie .

Therefore it is not the ministery of Priests and Deacons .

The proposition is undeniable .

The assumption may be prooved thus .

That ministerie which is opposite to the Sacrifice of the Masse , is opposite to the maine and essentiall facultys , functions , and offices of Priests and Deacons .

Such is our ministery .

Therefore it is opposite to the main and essentiall facultys of Priests & Deacons .

I doe not see which of these premisses he can with any colourable reason denie . I will therefore for beare to proceede further in this argument , untill I can see what he can say against it .

The third Argument .

That ministerie , which professing Christ by maintaining his covenant with the seales of it , doth directly and professedly warre against the beast , & against all that worship his image , and receave his marke in their forehead and hand , can not without sin be separated from .

Such is our ministery .

Therefore it can not without sin be separated from ,

The proposition is true : for no ministery so professing Christ , but the true ministery of Iesus Christ , doth directly and professedly warre in manner and forme aforesaid .

The assumption I proove thus .

That ministery which so professing , opposeth it selfe professedly to the Pope of Rome , as that great Antichrist ; which directly and expresly renounceth all Ecclesiasticall homage unto him , or any of his professed cleargie ; that denyeth and disputeth against ( most effectually ) all the main and fundamentall points of Popery ; which opposeth it selfe , to the uttermost of the strength and power thereof , to all the professed friends of the Pope and Church of Rome , that holdeth and maintaineth all the members thereof to be Hereticks , and idolaters , and in the State of condemnation , and such as no good Christian ought to communicate spiritually withall , that ministery , I say , doth directly warre against the beast , and against all that worship his image , &c.

But all this is done in and by our ministerie .

Therefore it doth directly and professedly warre against the beast , &c.

I know not which of these propositions he can with any face , deny . But deny either when he will , I shall be ready to proove them .

The fourth Argument .

That ministery , which deriveth the power and functions thereof from Christ can not without sin be separated from .

The ministery of our Church-assemblys deriveth the power and functions thereof from Christ .

Therefore it can not without sin be separated from .

The proofes of the main proposition of his fourth argument will serve to proove this proposition .

The assumption is as sufficiently prooved by my first and third Arguments , as his contrary is by his third and first .

But I further proove it thus .

If the power and functions of our ministery for the substance thereof , be the very same , for which Christ ascended up into heaven , to procure for the edification of his body the Church , then doth it for the substance thereof derive the power and functions thereof from Christ .

But the first is true .

Therefore the latter is true also .

The consequent of the proposition is undeniable .

The assumption is as undeniable , except he can shew any substantiall difference betweene the one and the other .

The fift Argument .

That ministery which worketh upon the consciences of men by a spirituall calling , can not without sin be separated from .

Such is our ministerie .

Therefore it can not without sin be separated from .

The proposition can not be gain-said .

The assumption is prooved by my second argument , but I further proove it in this manner .

That ministery which worketh upon the consciences of men , onely by a spirituall gift and grace given by Christ , and directed by the word of God , doth worke upon the consciences of men by a true spirituall calling .

Thus doth the ministerie of our Church-assemblys .

Therefore it worketh upon the consciences of men by a true spirituall calling .

The trueth of either of these propositions I shall easily proove , if they be denyed .

The sixt Argument .

The ministery of our Church-assemblys is no strange ministery .

Therefore it is a sin to separate from it .

This antecedent is better prooved by my first argument , then his contrary assumption is by the first argument .

I proove it notwithstanding thus :

That ministery , which for the substance thereof was practised by Christ , the Apostles , many worthie an● famous martyrs and witnesses of Jesus Christ in Church-assemblys , is no strange minist●ry .

Such is our ministery for the substance thereof .

Therefore it is no strange ministery .

Surely he will never deny the proposition .

Neither can he deny the assumption , except he can shew a substantiall difference betweene the ministerys aforesaid .

The seventh Argument .

That ministery which is from heaven can not without sin be separated from .

The ministery of our Church-assemblys is from heaven .

Therefore it can not without sin be separated from .

The proposition is plain .

The assumption is prooved by all the former arguments , which in his Logick Schooles , in his owne cause , is proofe good enough . But I adde a further proofe .

That ministery which in all the parts and powers thereof is principally exercised and directed to bring men to heaven , is a ministery from heaven .

Such is our ministery aforesaid .

Therefore it is from heaven .

The proposition is firme : it being not possible , that that ministery which is from earth or hell , should be principally directed and exercised in all the parts and powers thereof to bring men to heaven .

The assumption may not be denied , except he can shew in what other thing it is more principally exercised , and to what other end directed ; which he can never doe .

To these Reasons Maister Can giveth us a very quick and short answere , that he hath neither time nor minde to follow Maister Bradshaw in his vagarys , and idle repetitions : thereby wounding through Maister Bradshaws sides his own fellow , Maister Johnson as the Persian did through his fellows sides the Magitian . For Maister Bradshaw in these reasons precisely followeth Maister Iohnson , as Maister Can himselfe also , ( though he tearme it a mocking imitation of him ) acknowledgeth . But he will in few words , he saith , set down the sum of his long talke : ( though nothing so long as his brother Iohnsons was ) & give answere to it briefly .

So having set down the last syllogisme of the first reason .

1 He saith , for the proposition he will not much contend with him , though it be lame to the ground : and withall telleth him , how it might have heen framed more briefly and much better . A fit man indeed to reade Maister Bradshaw a Logick lecture ; if theire writings be both well weighed .

But for the lamenes of it , Maister Can might have considered , what Maister Bradshaw minded him at the first proposition for the proofe of it , that it hath all those Scripture crutches to support it and keepe it up from falling to the ground , that Maister Iohnsons parallell proposition of his first argument , for the assumption of his first reason had ; and mentioneth all the essentialls , that Maister Iohnson there doth , and consequently they must both either stand or fall together .

2. The assumption , he saith , is false .

For 1. Our ministers have not the gifts , he speaketh of ; as he hath manifested from our own writings .

But to affirme , that none of the ministers of our Church-assemblys have , yea or that the greater part of them have not , those gifts in a competent measure , yea very many of them in an eminent degree , whosoever shall say it , is so notorious an untruth , as the evidence of the thing it selfe doth aloud cry out the contrarie .

2. The Bishops from whome they take theire ministery , are not in any sense a Church , save a malignant one . And this alone is enough to overthrow all .

To this Maister Bradshaw hath fully and largely answered on Maister Iohnsons fift reason of the first sort , and the obj●ctions by him there propounded . Neither hath Mr. Can yet made any sound replie th●reunto .

3. T●ough they instruct the people in some doctrines of the Law and Gospell , as doe Papists and other Hereticks , yet the reading of the Service-booke in forme an manner ; the celebrating of mariage ; burying of the dead ; conformity & subscription ; are more essentiall to their ministery , and more necessarily required by the Laws of theire Church , then is preaching either of Law , and Gospell . And this he prooveth by the testimony of Maister Bradshaw , affirming ( as he relateth him ) that , t●ose that yeeld to the Ceremonys , need not preach at all except they will ; nor doe any part of divine Service , if they will keepe a Curate conformable to say Service .

1. For Maister Cans coupling our ministers with Papists and Hereticks in teaching some Doctrines of the Law and Gospell , I will say no more , but appeale for the justification of the entire body of saving doctrine both in Law & Gospell commonlie taught by our ministers , to the pious and learned labours of a numberlesse multitude of them , first preached to their people , and after published in print , sufficient to satisfie any reasonable person in this point ; & though , not to stop the mouthes of such barking carrs , as this Maister Can is , yet to evince evidently his malitious and virulent vanity , in yoaking them with hereticks and papists herein .

2. To omit , that somethings here mentioned by him , as Subscription , are no ministeriall offices or employments : Allbeit , it should be granted , that these things mentioned , were more necessarily required by the Laws of our Church , then preaching of Law and Gospell : And againe , that ( as Maister Bradshaw is sayd to say ) some ministers neede not preach themselves ( the Law not compelling them thereunto ) if they will maintaine a Curate , &c. yet it followeth not hence , either that the ministers of our Church-assemblys , doe not instruct the people committed to theire charge in the doctrine of the Law and Gospell , ( which is all Maister Bradshaw saith , in his assumption , of this branch , ) for suppose that some need not , or doe not , what is that to them , and those so many , that constantly doe ? or that these things are therefore , as Maister Can saith , m●re essentiall to their ministery , then the preaching of Law or Gospell are . Matters of order , in politick respects , are many times in all States , pressed more strictly , then matters in themselves of more imp●rtance .

4. The Sacraments , as some of our owne say are by them wickedly mingled and prophaned , and wickedly administred . And if Maister Bradshaw may be beleeved , divers Sacraments not of divine institution administred ; as cros , ring , surplice , &c.

For the former , to omit that though some fa●l●ng in the administration of Sacraments were granted , yet that , which Ma●ster Bradshaw here saith , may still stand firme : the charge is too generall ; as if one should charge Maister Can with living wickedly and prophanely , but not shewing wherein : & must passe therefore as a fond and frivolous charge , untill the action be more particularly laid , that a just issue may be joined .

For the latter likewise , though it contradict not Maister Bradshaws assertion , who saith , that they administer the holy Sacraments of Christ ; ( which appeareth to be a trueth undeniable , when Maister Can himselfe can not deny it , an yet denyeth the assumption , whereof this is one b●anch , ) whether Maister Bradshaw or any other ( for I know not who his Author is , nor dare I take ought on Maister Cans word ) may so tearm the ceremonys here mentioned , taking the word Sacrament in a very large sense , for any outward act , gesture or ornament used in the performance of Gods worship , ( and yet neither can that well be said of the ring ) it is not true , nor doth it appeare by any constitution of our Church , or part of our Liturgie , that any of these are either enjoyned , or used as Sacraments truely and properlie so tearmed ; to wit , as Seales , of Gods covenant of grace ; or , of justification by faith in Christ .

5. The Prayers our ministers are to make to God , when they reade theire Service-booke , must of absolute necessitie , without partiall dispensation , or manifest violation of oath , be foolish , false and superstitious .

To let passe , what further exceptions might justly be taken to this , as well as to the former ( for who can endure to discourse more than needs must , with such a foulemouthed frantick ? ) his charge is too wilde to be reduced to any due issue ; nor doth it , though it were in some particulars acknowledged , crosse the branch intended of Maister Bradshaws assumption .

But let us yet straine to heare a litle more of his ravings : he will not trouble us long : he is taking his farwell ; and like him whome herein he imitates , he is the more furious , it may be , because he is neere at an end .

I desire the Reader , saith he , to observe how wittilie he confirmeth the assumption . It shall be sufficient , saith he , that we can set forth to him such a ministery in sundry of our Church assemblys , of which all those points may be truly verifyed . Who would have thought , that Maister Bradshaw having blotted so many leaves of his booke with meere scoffing at Maister Iohnson about his Logick , should so grosly overshoot himselfe in tearms of reasoning . For what wise man but he , would have laid down a position , that comprehended indefinitely and generally all the ministers of their assemblys : & to proove it , saith : We can shew some such . It seemeth then that those some such must make all the rest true . In trueth he so inferres , or else his Argument is crackbrained , and lacks not truth onely but sense also . And hereupon he runneth out further in this like straine ; comparing Maister Bradshaw to such crafty merchants , who to put of the false wares that lie on theire hands , will shew the buyer a litle of the best , by that meanes cunningly to shift all the rest upon him . And telleth us , that he mentioneth the oftner these his deceavable shifts , that they may have more honest dealing hereafter , that if they will justify all theire ministers and Churches , they will say so directly ; or if but some few , they speake it out plainlie , & not make folke believe they meane all , when themselves are perswaded that the greatest number are false and Antichristian .

And I s●all desire the Reader likewise to observe , how witlesly and senslesly , not unreasonably alone , Maister Can carieth himselfe in this his rambling and scambling discourse ; not knowing , or taking notice , at least , of the ground and matter of the dispute ; and talking loosely withall at randome , as one very sorille acquainted with the rules , either of right reasoning , or right speaking .

1. It shall be sufficient , saith Maister Bradshaw , to set him forth sundry such . And it is sufficient say I , ( whatsoever Maister Can prate to the contrary ) so to doe , for the proofe of his assumption , and the evincing of the trueth in question . The controversy between Maister Bradshaw and Maister Iohnson is whether such a Separation , as Maister Iohnson and his faction maintaine , from the Church-assemblys of England , be sinfull or no . This separation thus controverted is generall , so practised , so professed , and so prosecuted in the whole discourse , and dispute . Now there is not onely no punie , or Freshman in the Schooles , but no man whosoever , that is not wholly void , I say not , of the art of reasoning , but even of Reason it selfe , or that hath not laesa principia , but is able to acquaint Maister Can with this common ground of reason ; that any one particular ( and much more manie ) affirmed is sufficient to overthrow a generall denyed . It is one of the first grounds in reason , that Contradi●tories can not both be true : but if one be true , the other must needs be false , And an other necessarily thence flowing , that a particular negative is sufficient to take away a generall affirmative ; and a particular affirmative to beare down a generall negative . If Maister Bradshaw therefore had said , that he could set forth but some one onely such Church-assembly among us , it were sufficient to evince the Separation here questioned , as it is generally layd , sinfull ; and to proove Maister Iohnson in avowing the said Separation , not Lawfull onely but necessary , to defend an untruth : and how much more then , when he saith he can set him out sundry such ?

And now whether Bradshaw or Maister Can have in matter of reasoning grossely overshot himselfe , let any reasonable man decide .

2. To let passe that notorious untruth ; that Maister Bradshaw hath blotted many leaves of his booke with meere scoffing at Maister Iohnson about his Logick ; that childish charge , that he hath grossely overshot himselfe in terms of reasoning ; ( for what termes doth Maister Bradshaw here use , other then usuall and authenticall ? ) and that incongruous coherence ; What wise man , but he , would have layd down a position , &c. and to proove it , saith & c ?

Surely wise men and in their wits doe not usually speake , much lesse write , thus . But we must beare with Maister Can , as well for Grammer as Logick . His heate and fury makes him forget oft the rules and ground of either of them . Consider we onely the main matter . The crime charged upon Maister Bradshaw , and that such as no wise man would ever have been overtaken with , is that having layd a position comprehending indefinitely and generally all the ministers of their assemblys , to proove it , he saith , he can shew some such .

But 1. Maister Can here sheweth us a trick or two of leger demaine . For he abates maister Bradshaws tearmes in the one branch ; sundry , saith maister Bradshaw , some saith maister Can , belike supposing that maister Bradshaw had failed there , as he telleth him , in his Logick termes . Then raiseth them on the other side , in the latter branch , as high . The ministerie of the Church-assemblys , saith maister Bradshaw . All the ministers of the Church-assemblys , saith maister Can , and writes the words withall in a different Character , as maister Bradshaws owne expres tearms , which is most false . Neither doth Maister Bradshaw as by his own words appeareth , so speake ; nor was it needfull , as hath been before shewed , that he should . Yea maister Cans own words containing a manifest contradiction , doe evidently evince the falsehood of his charge , and convince him of untruth . He saith maister Bradshaw speaketh indifinitely : and yet addeth , that , he saith , All , &c. Now if he speake indifinitely , how doth he say , All. Or if he say , All : expressely , how speaketh he indefinitely ? since that , then a proposition is sayd to be indefinite , when the note or tearme of quantitie is not expressed .

For as for that which he speaketh , after his blending and blundering manner , of comprehending indefinitely and genera●lie : as if indefinitely and generally were in sense and substance all one , it is just indeed according to the rest of his Logick , & if a man therefore shall say , There are Schismaticks at Amsterdam ; because he speaketh indefinitely , he must needs be understood generally ; that All the Schismaticks that are in the world harbour there . Or if he shall say ; that Fooles and Doltes write bookes ; he must needs be conceived to comprehend all writers , ( because his speech is indefinite ) and maister Can among the rest . But were maister Can so wise , as he would seeme to be , he might know ; or had he not been overslightly versed in the art of reasoning , he might have learned ; That an Indefinite either tearme or axiome may be taken , & so is to be , either generally or particularlie , according to the nature and tenour of the subject matter in hand : and is therefore in maister Iohnsons argument to be taken universally ; because a generall default enforcing a generall separation is to be prooved : whereas in maister Bradshaws argument it need not be so taken ; because the particular being made good , is enough to inferre a conclusion directly contradictory unto that of maister Iohnson . And you see now , how wisely maiste Can hath made this his wise charge good against maister Bradshaw .

3. But let us wade yet a litle further in this mire & mud . It seemeth ( yet at least , saith maister Can . ) that those ( Some Such ) must make all the rest true . In trueth , so he inferrs , or els his argument is crack-brained , & lacks not trueth onely , but sense allso .

I , might wel demande , why those Some Such might not as wel make the rest true ; as those ignorant asses & idlebellyed Epicures , that maister Can so oft casts in our dish , should make all the rest false , & worthy to be severed from : for the reason may passe as wel for the one as for the other . But I , let that pas , & come a litle neerer home to maister Can .

It is a question among some , whither in truth be an oath , or no . if it be , I shal hardly ever here after beleeve maister Can upon his oath , if not I shal yet hardly beleeve him delivering ought upon his trueth : when binding it so solemnly & seriousy with an in trueth , he telleth his reader here such a palpable untrueth . For where , or how , or in what tearmes either expresse or equivalent there unto . doth maister Bradshaw inferre , that those Some Such , yea or Sundry Such ( for so his words are ) either do , or must make all the rest true ; when of the rest he neither spake , nor had need to speake ought ? as hath formerly been shewn .

Yea but his argument els is crack-braind , as he saith of Maister Johnson & lacks not trueth onely , but sense allso .

Nay rather , he that so saith , therein sheweth himselfe either to be crack-braind , or to have his braines crow , and to want as wel trueth as wit . As for his tale therefore of crafty merchants fals wares & deceivable shifts , he may do wel to Keepe them in store , for such false forgers & sorie shifters , as he here sheweth himselfe to be . And yet such shameles and truthles companions , as make no conscience of coyning falshoods at pleasure , nor of fastning groundles calumnys upon others , have the face to cry & call for more honest dealing , even then , when thay deale most dishonestly themselves .

4. Yea but maister Can would have maister Bradshaw and the rest of us deale plainly , and tel directly , whether , when we speake indefinitely , we meane some few , or all . This is , as if some pe●emptorie shameles person like himiselfe should affirme confidently & stand in defence of it , That All the merchants in England . are men so lewd & vile , that no civill commerce can safely be had with any of them

And when he shall , to controoll his groundles and slanderous censures b● tolde , by some friend to the nation and profession ( We can set you forth sundry of them , against whome you can take no such exception , but that they be men of honest life and carriage , and such as you say they all are . Were it not now idle and impertinent , for such a shameles beast , to require the party to speake plainlie , & to say direct●y , whether he meane to justify those some few , or all in generall ; and to aske wither those few must make all the rest honest ? might he not well be answered ; Sir , what is that to the purpose ? So much as hath been said , is enough to make you a Liar , and so much being enough to make Maister Can the like , we so leave him , and let him go as he is .

And yet we must not doe so neither . For he will have one fling more at the cock , for his money , ere he goe ; & that he hopeth will hit him fall on the head : and he hath reserved it therefore , like enough , for the last cast .

Maister Bradshaw following Maister Iohnsons precedent , frameth his third Reason for the trueth of our Churches , from our opposition to Antichrist , and renunciation of him . To this Maister Can answereth , not by denying any part of the Argument ; but by affirming , that we retain st●●l the selfe same ministery ( of Massing priests belike ; which had been fitter for him to have opposed to the 2. Reason , if he had been pleased to return ought to it ) Church government , ( a Pope sure , and Cardinals at least ) Service , ( the Masse then questionles ) Canons , &c. and so are like one that calles a woman whore , and yet lies in bed with her , for all that , and committs folly with her . And if we aske how he prooveth this ; because it is no deniall of any part of Maister Bradshaws argument , but a fresh charge ; he telleth us that some papists and conformists say so .

And this is his last throw , that hath not yet , I hope , come neere the cocks head ; though it be no great matter , if notwithstanding that he be suffered to go away with the comb . That which the rather he deserveth , for that , that next followeth . For whereas insteed of answere to the reasons ensuing , he saith , there is nothing said in them , that the former things again repeated ; therein if he meant to throw at Maister Bradshaw , he mistooke his marke , but he hitteth his brother Iohnson , whome he should fight for , full on the hand . For Maister Bradshaw doth thus onely , that he may precisely follow Maister Johnson , and treadeth exactly in his steps .

Howbeit , one bout more we must have with him , concerning some Demands of his brother Iohnson ; the deciding whereof the said Maister Iohnson faith will end the controversies between them and us .

Maister Francis Iohnsons Demands .

Fr. Iohnson .

Whether the Lord Iesus Christ have by his last will and testament given unto , and set in his Church , sufficient ordinary officers , with their calling , worke , & maintainance , for the administration of his holy things , and for the sufficient ordinar●e instruction , guidance and service of his Church , to the end of the world .

W . Bradshaw

1. I answere directly ( understanding by officers , spirituall officers ) that he hath : and that it is a sin herein to breake his will and testament , e●ther by depriving the Church of any of those officers ; or by bringing into it any other kinde , with any other kinde of calling or worke , then he hath appointed in the same .

2. That notwithstanding this , the civill Magistrate hath power to set over the Churches of Christ in his dominions commissioners and overseers , which are not specially appointed by Christ in his testament , civilly to guide and governe the Churches , and to maintaine those priviledges , libertys , offices and orders , that Christ hath endowed them withall , against all the Enemys both without and within the same .

3. Concerning the maintainance of the ministers , Christ hath set down no more in his testament , then this in effect ; that the Labourer is worthy of his hire ; And that for their ministration of spirituall things , the Churches that enjoy their Labours , ought to minister to them of theire temporalls . But after what speciall manner they shall be maintained ; he hath ( for ought appeareth yet to the contrary ) either left it to the discretion of the Churches , if they have the free disposition of their temporall goods in their own hand ; or of the Christian Magistrate ; who in such cases may see what is fitter then the Churches themselves .

Fr. Iohnson .

Whether the offices of Pastors , Teachers , Elders , Deacons and Helpers be those offices appointed by Christ in his testament before said ? Or whether the present Ecclesiasticall offices of Arch-bishops , Lord-bishops , Suffraganes , deane● , prebendarys , canons , petty canons , priests , deacons , Arch-deacons , doctours of divinity , chaplins , or hou●e-priests , commissarys , officials , proctors , apparitors parsons , vicars , curates , vagrant or mercenary preachers , church-wardens , Sidemen , Clarks , sextons , & the rest now had in the cathedrall & parishonall assemblys , be those officers appointed by Christ in his Testament , as is aforesaid , or no ?

W . Bradshaw

1. I grant that the offices in the first place mentioned are those verie offices , wich Christ hath appointed and there is no Church of Christ , but hath use & need of them : and that such are some way defective , that want anie one of them .

2. That yet notwithstanding , they may be true Churches , that want some of them , yea & the chifest of them ; as those assemblys of your owne profession in England have for many yeares been without either all , or the cheifest of them : and yet they judge themselves true Churches ; yea though they have not so much as the Sacraments administred among them .

3. Where the civil magistrate doth his duty as he ought , & where the Churches have the benefit of his help , for the suppressing of sin , & the relieving of the poore , & those that are in any distres ( which the Apostolical Churches wanted ) there the want of some of these offices may be the better borne with all & the Church les defective that doth want them , especially the two latter .

4. I grant that none of those offices here mentioned in the latter part ( excepting that of Deacons ) are in name those offices which Christ hath appointed : some of them neither in name , nor in deed : some in deed though not in name : some have the name of that which indeed they are not : some , though they be set over the Churches ; yet are not indeed any proper offices of the Church , some offices here named neither indeed nor name , as they are such , are Ecclesiasticall offices , but onely Schoole titles & dignitys given to men Eminent in Learning , for encouragement to others to study good letters , especially divinity .

5. All the offices appointed by Christ to be in his Church , to the end of the world , in effect & substance may be found contained under some of these ; though some what disguised with strange names , borrowed from the Church of Rome . And the principall & most necessary are under some of these . For many of these which you despitefully call me cenary preachers , house-priests , yea parsons , vicars , curates , are in very deed & truth , in office and practise ( whatsoever they are in name ) the very pastors & teachers , that Christ hath ordained , ministring in his Churches ( according to theire places & callings , & those gifts which Christ hath bestowed upon them ) all the ordinary means , of Salvation . As for these variety of names , most of them arise from that variety of maintainance that is in our Churches , and not of their spirituall offices . So that in this manner to dispute against our Churches ; becau●e the ministers thereof have such & such names , is , as though one should dispute against the Church of the Iews in Christ time , & have denied communion with it , asking whether priests , Levites , & prophets , were not those officers which God hath appointed , to governe the Church of the Iews with all ; or whether Scribes , Pharisees , Saduces , Captains of the temple , Rulers of the Synagogues , Doctors of the Law , Centurions , Souldiers , the high priests Servants , &c. were those officers : Or as if one disputing against your owne Churches , or those which have , ( though ●ot so fully , as you would have them ) entertained the same discipline with you , should to warrant theire Separation from you , & their condemnation of you as false Churches , moove the very same question , in nature , unto you asking ●ou whether pastors , teachers , Elders , Deacons , & helpers , be not those offices which Christ hath appointed in his Testament ; or whether Schismaticks , refracta●ys , Lay-aldermen , parish bishops , Consistorians , parish popes , proctors of Spi●le hauses , dawbers , thackers taylers , tinkers , &c. be those officers ? for thus it hath pleased some to put these odious names upon those , which beare & exercise the offices of pastors , teachers , Elders , &c.

Fr. Iohnson .

Whether the callings & entrance into the Ecclesiasticall offices aforesaid , their administration & maintainance now had & retained in England , be the manner of calling , administration and maintenance , which Christ hath appointed for the offices of the Church above named , or no .

W . Bradshaw

Not to stand ( for the avoyding of multiplicity of unnecessarie questions ) upon defence of the calling , entrance , administration , and maintenance of all ; I answere directly and plainly ; That the calling , entrance , administration , and maintenance of many ( at the least ) that are called into Ecclesiasticall offices , is in very effect & substance , the same that Christ hath appointed . They are men instructed in the knowledge of good letters , especially in divinity : They have a gift in some good measure , to divide the word of God , according to the necessitys of their people , over whome they are set . They have a desire to doe Christ and his Church service in his ministery , and a purpose to give themselves over unto that worke . They have in some good measure ( for none hath them in perfection ) all those graces & gifts , that Paul to Timothy requires to be in Bishops and Elders . They are so judged and esteemed to be of other ministers , and well grounded Christians , and of those people which submit unto their ministery ; who accepting of them and theire ministery as sent of God , desiring and yeelding themselves to live under them , as is fitting for Christians ; and they resolving to guide and governe them , as becometh spirituall leades & guids .

Such calling and entrance as this , have many of our Church officers : more than this in substance and effect is not appointed by Christ . Those defects and errors , which over and besides , many times they yeeld unto in their calling , entrance and administration , are not of that nature and quality , that they make a nullity thereof , or make it a false , and Antichristian calling , entrance , or administration . The maintainance they live by , as it is no where in generall or speciall forbidden ; in the yeelding whereof unto the ministers , they fulfill the testament of Christ , in giving of their temporall things , for spirituall , in giving hire to the Labourers , &c. and doe not therein breake any parts else thereof ; he having no where forbidden any such manner of maintainance , but left it indifferent , to give money , or fruits , in fruits to give the twentith , the twelfth , the tenth , the eighth of the encrease , according either to theire estate , or the necessity of the ministers ; wherein the Magistrate hath autority to rule & define , who hath in his hand the power of mens temporall estates ; or the Church , if the magistrate leave unto them the free use of their own temporalitys .

Neither is the tenth required to be given by the Magistrate , or yeelded to be given by the Church to the maintainance of ministers , any more ceremoniall or judiciall in regard of the number , then in regard of the matter .

Neither did there any mystery lie so much in the quantitie of the thing given , as in the very gift and offering it selfe . So that by the same reason , that you make it unlawfull for ministers to be maintained by Tithes , you make it unlawfull for them to haue any kinde of maintainance from the Church ; there having bin a ceremony in the very matter it selfe as much as in the quantity or number . For not onely their giving the tithe of their encrease , but also the very giving of theire encrease it selfe , out of that consideration , was ceremoniall .

Fr. Iohnson .

Whether every true visible Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world , and the false worship and ways thereof , by the word of God ; and joyned together in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ .

W . Bradshaw

I answere , 1. That every true visible Church of Christ , is such a people .

2. That yet , notwithstanding they be such , they may in theire infirmity & ignorance , walke in some of the ways , and practise some parts of the fal●e worship of the world , notwithstanding theire said separation , conjunction and profession .

3. They may in time become the true visible Churches of Christ , which at the first were not in the said manner and forme , called , separated and joyned together ; but forced and constrained against theire will by the swo●d of the Magistrate .

4. Many of those Churches in our Kingdome , from which you separate , as they now stand , are such a company of people , so called , separated , and joyned together : tho' in all three there may be some kinde of defects and wants .

Fr. Iohnson .

Whether the Sacraments , being the Seales of righteousnes which is by faith , may be administred unto any other but to the faithfull , and their seed : or in any other ministery , or m●nner than is appointed by Iesus Christ , the apostle & high-priest of our profession . And whether they be no otherwise administred in our Cathedrall & parishionall Curches in England .

W . Bradshaw

1. I grant that ihe Sacraments ought to be admi●ist●ed onely to the faithful in outward p●ofession , and theire seed ; and in no other ministery or manner , then is appointed by Christ .

2. In many of our Church●s ( at the least ) they are adm●nistred in no other manner , from & by no other minist●●y then Christ hath appointed ; nor to no other persons .

3. Everie error & defect in some part of the matter & forme , and ministry , arising from ignorance or infirmity , maketh not the Churches false Churches : Except you holde ; That no true particular Church can erre ; which is a more grosse opinion , than that of the Papists .

Fr. Iohnson .

Whether the booke of Common Prayer , with the Feasts , fasts , holie dayes , stinted prayers , & Liturgy prescribed therein , and used in these Assemblys , be the true worship of God commanded in his word ; or the devise & invention of man , for Gods woship & service .

W . Bradshaw

1. Tho' it should be granted , that the b●oke of c●mmon prayer , in all the parts & parcels thereof , is n●t the true worship of G●d ; but containeth in it some devises & inventions of man ; yet the true worship of God not with standing is prescribed in it .

2. So much of it as is used in manie of our Churches , is the true worship of God , and in effect commanded in his word .

3. Those devises and inventions of men , with the Feasts , fasts , and holy daies therein p●escribed , though they should be granted to be sins & corruptions in our Chu●ches , and such as ought not to be conformed unto : and such as we ought rather to separate from our Churches , than either by Subscription , conformity , or any other meanes , to approove ; yet are they not of that nature , that the simple use of any or all of them , doth destroy the very being of those Churches , which use them ; making them false Churches , and such as we may have no spirituall communion withall , no not in the best things .

Fr. Iohnson .

Whether all people and Churches , without exception , be not bound in Religion , onely to receive and submit unto that min●stery , worship & order , which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appointed to his Church . Or whether any may receive and joine unto another devised by man for the service of God , And consequently , whether they that joyn to the present Ecclesiasticall ministery , worship and order of the Cathedrall and parishionall assemblys , can be assured by the word of God , that they joine to the former ordained by Christ , and not to the latter devised by man , even the man of sinne , for the worship and service of God ?

W . Bradshaw

1. I grant that we are bound in Religion , to doe that which is specifyed in the first part of your question .

2. To joyn with our Ecclesiasticall ministery , worship and orders ( at least in those assemblys , whether Cathedrall or other , when and where all things are not performed according to the rigour of our Laws , ) is not to joyn with a ministery and worship devised by that man of sin ; but ( though not in all the specialitys and formalitys thereof ) with such a ministery and worship , as is required and instituted of God .

3. They which joyn to the present Ecclesiasticall ministery , worship and order of the Cathedrall or Parishionall assemblys , in those things which are performed therein according to the true intent and meaning of our Laws , though some things be done not warrantable by the word ; yet they may be assured by the word of God , that they joine to the substance of that ministery , worship & order , which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appointed to his Church . At least they may be as well assured thereof by Gods word , as any that join with the present Ecclesiasticall ministerie , worship & order of the assemblys of those of the Separation , can be assured by the same word , that they join to that forme which is ordained by Christ .

Now as concerning these demands , Maister Can telleth us , that Maister Bradshaw undertooke indeed to answere them but he kept himselfe of so covertly from the point , that he hath left them far more obscure and dark than they were before : and in steed of them therefore he propoundeth 13. other questions of his owne , gathered ( as he saith ) from Maister Bradshaws shifting Answeres & idle put-ofs .

A pritty shift and put-of indeed , to save himselfe labour of taking away Maister Bradshaws Answeres ; which he knew not well how to turne his hand unto . It seemeth that either hee is not of his brother Johnsons minde , that these demands decided , will , as he saith , end the controversys between us and them ; or he is not over-willing to have them at an end ; least his schismaticall function end , and expire with them : or lastly he conceiveth , that Maister Bradshaw hath in h●s answeres so decided th●m , that the sentence of decision goeth on our side . Now this though hee like not well of , yet is he loath to take the pains to take them away , wh●ch indeed ●e ●either is nor ever wi●l be able well to performe .

As for h●s own bakers dosen of questions , let them deale that list with him . For this is no Scholerly course , but boys-plaie , when Demands have been made , and answeres returned to them , not to reply upon the answeres returned thereunto , nor to examine a●d scan what they say ; but to tell the Answerer , that his Answeres are so covert , that they leave things more obscure and dark , than they were , and propound other queres in roome of the former , letting the dispute , propounded and so far prosecuted , fall to the ground .

Thus having run over and examined in defence of Maister Bradshaws Answere to Maister Johnson , whatsoever hath by Maister Can here been opposed thereunto ; I conclude at length , as I finde , Maister Cans whole discourse , in regard of his fond and frivolous manner of reasoning , to be nothing else but a Can full of froath ; in regard of his lying and unsavoury language , to be not a Can full of froath onely , but of filth too .

Now if upon view hereof , if it ever be so happy , as to come to Maister Cans hand , his fingers shall be itching , as peradventure they will , to be scribling and blotting of paper again , thereby to assay , what he can , to lick his credits whole again , which by his fond and foule dealing therein descried and discovered , he may justly deeme much impeached and impaired : Let him in the first place recant his notorious falsehoods & forgerys , to every eye obvious ; these by name among the rest .

1. That Maister Bradshaw doth in this booke stand to maintaine the vil●st abominations in our Churches , having formerly made shew to be a great enemy thereunto , pag . 217.

2. That such corruptions as the Non-conformistes generally have condemned , he basely therein justifyeth , ibi .

3. That pleadeth for dumb dogs , cater-pillers , and idle-bellys , and is such a proctour for them as they never had a better . pag . 221.

4. That he justifieth all such Priests and Deacons , as the Bishops make , wi●hout limitation or exception . pag . 234.

5. That he saith generally , All the ministers of our Church-assemblys . pag . 260.

6. That he inferres , that those ( some such ) must make all the rest true . ibid .

7. That he sclandereth our State , affirming , that it permits our ministers to be drunckards . pag . 224.

8. That he hath from time to time earnestly craved the aid of Princes , to have the ordinary ministery of our Church-assemblys quite rooted out and abolished . pag . 221.

9. That he useth corrupt shifts to justify civill offices in Ecclesiasticall persons . pag . 224.

10. That he labours , what he can , to justify the peoples practise , in committing the charge of assigning them Ministers to Patrones . pag . 242.

11. That he defendeth the reading of the Articles and Canons . pag . 249.

12. That he justifieth the practise of Popish Ceremonys by himselfe condemned . pag . 230.

13. That his Counsell is much to this effect , so a man holde something , it is no matter what it be , nor how ungroundedly taken up . pag . 227.

14. That by his arguing any heretick may maintaine the gross●st errors , that he holdes and practiseth , pag . 230.

15. That by this manner of arguing a man may be a Iew , a Turke , a Heathen , any thing . pag . 750.

16. That he bestirs himselfe to proove our ministery good , by the Scribes & Pharisees . pag . 231.

17. That Paraeus on Math . 23.2 . affirmeth the Scribes and Pharisees to have come rightly and lawfully to the offices they executed . Ibid .

18. That Maister Bradshaws words import , that the ahility , which the Pharisees had to expound the Law , argued them true ministers . pag . 232.

19. That to that of Maister Iohnson affirming our ministery to be unlawfull and Antichristian , because neither theire offices , calling , nor administration is according to Gods word , but all taken from Antichrist ; he childishly answereth , that true pastors and teachers may want some accessory parts of theire offices . pag . 250.

20. That he askes , what errors they can proove to be in our Church . pag . 423.

21. That he saith , our ministers have such and such offices , because by Law th●y ou●ht to have them . pag . 240.

22. That he delivereth his yea and nay allwayes upon his owne bare word . pag . 141.

23. That he says the proposition is false , the assumption is false , the consequent is false : but for proofe , a man may as soone finde a needle in a botle of hay , as any , for the things which he boldly denies . pag . 257.

24. That he never brings either Scriptures , Examples , Reasons , or humane Testimoni●s , to confirme any one thing whereof he writes . pag . 235.

These , I say , and other the like evident untrueths , let him in the first place agnize and revoake , whereby his repentance for them may appeare ; and then , ( if he think good ) in the next place , let him enter his Surre●o●nder in defence of his reply , leaving his idle vagarys into points in pertinent to the present busines , and applying his discourse punctually to the Subject matter fi●st ●ntended ; to wit , the justification of Maister Iohnsons booke against Maister Bradshaws Answere , and he shall not want an Answere to whatsoever he shall surrejoine to this my Rejoinder . Otherwise , let him for my part , looke to be answered as Salomon willeth , such as he sheweth himselfe here to be , Prov. 26.4 . with silence . For who will endure to maintaine discourse with one , that by persisting in manifest and palpable untrueth , thereby manifestly sheweth , that he cares not what he sayes , so it may seeme any way to serve his turne ? Or who can have the patience to holde dispute with him , that will by no meanes be kept to the point in present agitation ; but run backward and forward , and ramble up and down , without list or limite , into what he likes or listes himselfe ?

It is a hard taske , I well know , that I now put Maister Can to ; and yet no more than equity and reason requireth . And if the propositions therefore please him not , nor he like to accept of them , let him prate at pleasure , & bawl as loud as he list , and rave ad raile , as he doth allmost throughout his whole booke ; and fasten as many forged untrueths on this Rejoinder , as he hath done here on Maister Bradshaws Answere ; and crow when he hath so done , as if he had made a faire full and finall conquest , because he is not againe answered ; all his clamours and calumnys , urgings and darings shall never induce me to set pen to paper againe , and to enter the lists with such an one as he is , so persisting in his folly , untill I shall deeme it fit to vie broade and base language with some common scold , or to contend with a man beside himselfe .

I pitty onely his poore people , that in Schismaticall Separation are led on by such a guide , as this very worke of his shews him to be ; which beginning with mention of grace , and ending with prayer for sincere walking , he sheweth litle grace or sincerity in the whole body and bulk of it . And wishing them more wisedome to discerne things that differre , and him more grace and sincerity , than here he hath manifested , I end ; having , I hope , sufficiently vindicated in any indifferent & intelligent mans judgement , the credite of my worthy friend , and Gods faithfull servant , from this mans unjust aspersions ; and the soundnes of his Answere , from his undue oppositions ; or whether I have so done or no , referring my selfe to the doome and sentence of any person not extreamely partiall .

FINIS .