A catholike conference, betweene a Protestant and a Papist about the Church visible and invisible, wherein, is declared the happines, and blessed estate of the members of the invisible Church, in this life, in their death, in their resurrection, and after the resurrection for euer. And also a definition of the visible Church, which conteineth the very essence thereof, both in matter and forme, and is illustrated further by proofes, both from the word, and workes of God. And in it, is also shewed the infallible markes of a true visible Church, whereby it may be knowne. And also therein are shewed the deceiuable markes of the Church of Rome, which deceits are therein laid open, and confuted. Jenney, George, fl. 1626. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription B00634 of text S123177 in the English Short Title Catalog. Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 491KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 99 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2018 B14215

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 Early English books online text creation partnership. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 2, no. B14215) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 177007) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 742:13) A catholike conference, betweene a Protestant and a Papist about the Church visible and invisible, wherein, is declared the happines, and blessed estate of the members of the invisible Church, in this life, in their death, in their resurrection, and after the resurrection for euer. And also a definition of the visible Church, which conteineth the very essence thereof, both in matter and forme, and is illustrated further by proofes, both from the word, and workes of God. And in it, is also shewed the infallible markes of a true visible Church, whereby it may be knowne. And also therein are shewed the deceiuable markes of the Church of Rome, which deceits are therein laid open, and confuted. Jenney, George, fl. 1626. [12], 180 p. Printed by I. D[awson] for Nicholas Bourne, and are to be sold at his shop, at the Royall Exchange, London : 1626. Dedications signed: George Ienney. Printer's name from STC. Imperfect; trimmed at head, affecting running titles and page numbers. Reproduction of the original in the British Library.

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 eng Catholic Church -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. eebo A catholike conference, betweene a Protestant and a Papist : about the Church visible and invisible, wherein, is declared the happines, and blessed es Jenney, George, active 1626. 1626 198 87519 134 0 0 0 0 0 15.31 C The rate of 15.31 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2014-03 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2014-05 Sampled and proofread 2014-05 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2015-03 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

A CATHOLIKE CONFERENCE , BETWEENE A Protestant and a Papist , about the Church visible and invisible , wherein , is declared the happines , and blessed estate of the members of the invisible Church , in this life , in their death , in their resurrection , and after the resurrection for euer .

And also a definition of the visible Church , which conteineth the very essence thereof , both in matter and forme , and is illustrated further by proofes , both from the word , and workes of God .

And in it , is also shewed the infallible markes of a true visible Church , whereby it may be knowne .

And also therein are shewed the deceiuable markes of the Church of Rome , which deceits are therein laid open , and confuted .

LONDON Printed by I. D. for Nicholas Bourne , and are to be sold at his shop , at the Royall Exchange . 1626.

TO THE RIGHT HONORABLE WILLIAM , Earle of PENBROOKE , Lord Harbert , Lord Chamberlaine of the High and Mighty Prince King CHARLES the first of Great Brittaine , his Honorable houshold : one of the Lords of his Maiesties most honorable privie Councell , Chancellor of the Vniversity of Oxford , Knight of the most Noble order of the Garter , &c. George Ienney Gent : wisheth all true noble honor in this life , and happines , and glory , in the life to come .

MOST Noble Lord , I humbly intreat you , that you would not count it presumptuous bodlnes , in me a man so meanly qualified , to dedicate a Booke to you , so Noble a personage ; the zeale of Gods glorious truth , and the honor I beare to this visible Church of Great Brittaine , wherein , I had not onely my first being in an estate of corrupted nature ; but in Gods good time , haue by his blessing on his owne ordinance , and my attendance thereunto , given me my better being in a state of grace , wherein I stand : the zeale I say vnto Gods truth , and the honour I beare to this Church , that professeth and preacheth this truth , hath provoked me to this labour . The subiect of this discourse , is the Church visible and invisible ; and for as much , as I finde by reading some Bookes of controversies , betweene the Church of Rome , and our Church , the great abuses which the writers offer to our holy Religion , and our Church , that preacheth and professeth the same : and for as much as our Romish English Catholikes , will haue no communion with vs , in our publike assemblies : I thought it fitt in my Christian charitie toward them , being grieved to see them seduced by their hereticall corrupted teachers . To write this Dialogue , as a private conference with them , or so many of them , as this poore Dialogue by Gods providence may come vnto . Right Honorable , I beseech you , not to be discouraged , because I am no professed Schollar , to vouchsafe your Lordships patronage of this meane worke , for after I had finished it , I would not adventure to procure the publishing of it , before I had obteyned the judgement of judicious Divines , touching the worth of it . There was three or foure about London , that perused it , and subscribed their approbations to the originall coppy , affirming , that it was like to do that good , for which it was intended : which did incourage me to obtaine licence to publish it , and dedicate it vnto your Lordship . I am vnknowne vnto your Honor , yet I haue received favours from you , for I was sometime a servitor in Court , in the time of our Great Master , and Mistris , the Heroicall Princes , King Iames , and Queene Ann , Father and Mother to our deare Soveraign , King Charles ; whose servant I was , and served as a Gentleman Sewer of her Maiesties chamber in ordinary . At which time , your Honourable favours to mee , with the rest of the Queenes servants aboue the stayres especially , to the presence waiters was such , that I cannot be altogether vnmindefull , and therefore in this regard , I am especially bound vnto your Lordship , and doe offer this poore worke to you in thankefullnes . But this is not the cheife cause , of my dedicating these my poore endevours vnto you , but because I know you are a lover of Gods truth , which is your greatest honor : your Christian Noble carriage in this church , doth evidently demonstrate the same . And therefore I presume that this little mite of mine , will be rather furthered then hindered from the Church , that it may remaine in the Treasury of this our Church , for the edification of poore weake and ignorant soules , that are already , or may be in possibilitie , to be seduced for want of knowledge in Gods truth , and the true Church , which teach , preach , and professe the same : Some there be that liue in the bosome of our Church , that are assuredly perswaded , that our Church , is a pure part of the visible Catholike Church , and spouse of Christ ; this may be a meanes further to confirme them . And some there be that are weake , and infirme , wavering minded , and ready to fall from our Church , and from the saving faith , which is faithfully preached and professed by her . This may be a meanes by Gods blessing , to strengthen them , and many there be , that are alienated from our Church , and that saving faith taught by her , and haue knit themselues to the Church of Rome , where they liue in a false faith , grounded on a false foundation , this may be a means , to giue them to vnderstand that they are schismatically , and erroniously departed from our Church , and the true faith , preached and professed by her ; and a meanes to draw them to repentance , by turning to our Church and the truth therein faithfully taught , which is the spirituall milke , for the nourishment of their soules vnto everlasting life , from the false Church of Rome , where they are nuzelled vp in er●or , superstition , and idolatry , to their eternal perdition , if they repent not . I haue shewed them , that the Church , is to be considered two wayes , as it is visible , and as it is invisible : and that as it is invisible , it is truely , properly , and indeede , the Church of Christ . I haue shewed them , how this invisible Church , is his body , how it is invisible , how it is spirituall , how it is mysticall , and how it is the Catholike Church wee professe to beleeue in the Creede ; and I haue shewed them , the happy and blessed estate of this Church , and the severall members thereof : First , in this life . Secondly , in their death . Thirdly , at the resurrection . Fourthly , at the day of Iudgement . And lastly , after Iudgement for ever , so farre forth as I can gather by Gods word , & the ministery of our church , and I haue shewed them lastly , how a true converted child of God , may be assured , that he is a member of this happy and blessed body and Church of Christ . The second part of this Booke , consists of the visible Church , where I haue first defined it , in which definition , is conteined the essence of it , in the matter and forme . I haue shewed the infallible markes of a visible true Church , whereby a private man may know it : and I haue shewed the marks that the Church of Rome holdeth to be infallible , but I haue proved them to be deceitfull , if they be not ioyned with the true doctrine of salvation . I haue proved the truth of our Church , and that theirs is a false Church by their owne markes , that is to say , Succession , Antiquity , Vnity , Sanctity , Miracles , &c. And therein is inserted divers doctrines of the word and workes of God , worthy of note , which I thought good to shew them , that they might the better conceiue what the Church is , and whereof it doth consist , of which they are greatly ignorant . And my good Lord , whereas there is not in the world , the least Creature which God hath made , but will adde vnto mans perfection , either for knowledge , or for vse somewhat ; so this poore worke of mine , although it doth not adde vnto your Lordships wisedome and knowledge , yet it may ratifie and confirme it in many things , if your Honour will vouchsafe the reading of it : Herein is shewed the true succession of the Church , in all ages of the world from Adam , till this very day , and that our Church of Great Brittaine , doth succeede the ancient Churches ; both in the time of nature before the writing of the Law , and vnder the Law , as the Church of the Iewes ; and the Church of CHRIST since the publishing of the Gospell : and that it doth succeede them all , in that which is essentiall to the Church , both in the foundation , and also in the matter and forme : These things I shew more at large , in this ensuing Dialogue following , which I now present vnto your Lordship , desiring your Honour , to accept the minde of the giver , and peruse it at your leisure . And thus I commend you Right Honourable , to the protection , and grace of God in Christ .

Your Lordships in the Lord , GEORGE IENNEY .
TO All my fellow Subiectes , vnder King Charles , in his Monarchy of Great Brittaine , who are of the Romish Catholike Religion , vnto Whom I wish in the best desires of my soule , the knowledge of Gods truth .

BEloved Countrimen and kinsmen , what ranke or calling so ever you are of , whether you be men of honour , or worship , whether you be of the Gentry , or Yeomandry ; Trades-men , or Artificers ; Husbandmen , or Plowmen ; Poore , or Rich ; Great , or Small ; Young , or Old whatsoever ; that haue estranged your minds , and alienated your hearts , from the present Religion of your ●wne Countrey . Which Religion is that truth , which must bring you and all men to salvation : the vtter refusall whereof , will bring to eternall condemnation : to you I say , that haue cast off your owne spirituall mother , the pure visible Church of Christ Iesus , here by Gods mercy and free goodnes in Great Brittaine placed and erected : and haue knit your selues ; liue in subiection , and hold communion with the Church of Rome , a most grosse corrupted Church ; to you I say , in spirituall commiseration of your spirituall misery , doe I direct this Epistle of loue : and for your sakes , haue I out of my poore vnderstanding , this poore Treatise , Dialogue , or Catechisme of the Church . I know that you are ignorant what the Church is , and whereof it doth consist : and therefore as a helpe for your weakenes , I haue framed this Dialogue of the Church : I desire nothing at your hands , but that you would read it : for therein is shewed by the word and workes of God , what the Church is , and whereof it doth consist . I know your blind guides doe dehort and command you to avoid all matter of exhortation from vs , and all conference with vs. But for all them , be ruled by our Saviour Christ himselfe , whose servantes you professe your selves to be : what sayth he by your Remish Testament in the Evangelist Ioh ? Search the scriptures , Iohn 8.39 . 1. Thes . 4.21 . ● Iohn 4.5 . for you thinke in them to haue life everlasting . And what sayth he by the ministery of Saint Paul , in your owne translation to the Thessalon ? Prooue all things , and hold that which is good , againe what sayth he by the ministery of Saint Iohn ? My dearest beleeue not every spirit , but proue the spirits if they be of God . My desire is , that you would obserue in reading this my poore Dialogue , those rules which here our Saviour hath commanded you , for hee onely hath power in the Church , by his written word , to command the consciences of men , and not your Pope and Priests by their traditions . Doe as the Nobles of Berea did in obedience to our Saviour Christs command , who searched the Scriptures , whether those things were so which Paul taught them . The Scriptures , are as the Ballances of the Sanctuary , which will try whether the matter of my Dialogue , or Catechisme is too light , or of reasonable good waight : it is the touchstone , which will try whether it be gold or copper : by this rule I would haue you to try the spirit by which I wrote it , and by this touchstone , I would haue you to try all things in it , and to keepe what is good ; and what is for want of learning weakly performed , in silence and loue conceale , or tell me of it . I desire you not so much to consider the man that wrote it , as the contents of it : not so much the Authour of it , as the matter in it : and I make no doubt if the error of your Iudgements , be not seated in your perverse wils , but that you may profit much in your edification by it : But if Satan haue filled your hearts with mallice against our Church , and the truth here preached , and professed , and that your partiall respect vnto the Church of Rome be such , that you will walke in the wicked counsell of it , and stand in the sinfull wayes that it teacheth you , and that you are growne to that desperate state , that you will sit in the wicked seat of scorners : for the wicked saith the Psalmist , hateth to be reformed , then there is little hope to prevaile with you vnto any good ; No , if Christ the essence of all wisedome were in the flesh againe amongst you , to instruct you , as he was amongst the Iewes , who were the visible church , and yet condemned and crucified him : but my hope is , that God hath ordained many of you to salvation and eternall life , and in his good time , will effectually call you by opening your hearts , as he did Lidia , to receiue the loue of the truth , to your eternall salvation : the zeale of Gods glory in the good of your soules , haue provoked me to this labour : and I hope you will not requite me with hate for my loue , nor evill for my good will ; but that you will accept it in loue , as I wrote it in loue , for your edification , vnto happines and salvation for ever . Your Pope and Priests tell you , that they are your Pastors : but where is the good spirituall pasture , by which they doe feede you to eternall life ? It is no where to be found , but in the large field of the word of God , revealed in the Scriptures : and many parts of your Religion cannot be proved thence , nor from thence necessarily concluded : but is drawne out of their owne corrupt inventions , to the poysoning of your soules for ever , if you take not heede , and repent in time . For the prevention of which , I haue shewed you in this my poore Dialogue , which is the purest part of the visible Church , and the safest in this part of the world , for you to ioyne with in Gods service : two wicked props there are , by which the Church of Rome is vphold ; the one is the bloody law o● the Inquisition of Spaine , by which the people are terrified , from questioning any point of error maintained by that Church : the other is their doctrine of an implict faith , which is in sundry parts of Religion , to beleeue as the Church beleeveth ; and by taking from them the Scriptures , that they should not spie out by that pure light , the false doctrine of that Church . Thus by a bloody law , and by ignorance , is that Church vpheld : and if that cruell law were repealed , and that common store-house of Gods spirituall blessings , the Scriptures opened , that all Gods people might resort to it , both in publike , and private to reade it : I am perswaded that quickly the Church of Rome would fall without any further strife : but I doe not desire to detaine you long by my Epistle , from reading my ensuing Treatise ; and so I rest yours in all Christian duty , if you be Christs .

GEORGE IENNEY Gent :
A DIALOGVE OR CONFERENCE Betweene an English Protestant and a Spanish Papist , about the Church visible and invisible ; shewing the ignorant Papist by the Word and Workes of GOD , what the Church is , and whereof it doth consist , whereof he is too ignorant . GEORGE ,

God blesse and saue you Sir , you are well over-taken .

PHILIP ,

You are well-come Sir , I thanke you .

George ,

I perceiue you are walking to London .

Philip ,

I am a stranger in this Countrey , but haue beene here in London since our Ambassadours and Ledgers haue beene sent to your King . And being desirous to take the ayre this morning in the fields , the finenesse and fairenesse of the weather made me to walke further then I thought to haue done , even till I am weary .

George ,

I perceiue you are a stranger , and seeing Religion , the feare of God , and good humanitie , doth teach a man curteously to intreate strangers : therefore if it please you I will walke with you foote by foote , vntill I bring you to London , and so to your lodging .

Philip ,

Indeed strangers in strange Countryes haue a desire to light into good company , and therefore I thanke God that he hath sent me so kinde and courteous a companion to walke withall : therefore come let vs walke on fayre and e●sily .

George ,

I suppose Sir , you are a Spanyard by Nation if I mistake not .

Philip ,

I am so indeed , and therefore you are not deceived .

George ,

Your King is a great King , and possessed of many dominions and kingdomes .

Philip ,

And not onely so , but our King is rich in treasure , which he hath from the Indies .

George ,

But I pray you Sir , let me craue your name .

Philip ,

My name is Philip .

George ,

And my name is George . But I pray you Senior Philip , let me aske you another question ; Are you a Scholler .

Philip ,

Indeed I am no Scholler , which is a great griefe to me .

George ,

And truely Senior Philip , no more am I , which want I greatly bewaile in my selfe , yet by the mercy of God I haue attained in some weake measure to speake the language of Canaan in my owne naturall tongue , which you by the like mercy of God may attaine vnto , if you will be studiously diligent whilest you are here , and if already you be entered into that holy language , by diligence you may here haue it increased .

Philip ,

The language of Canaan , what is that ?

George ,

Nay then I perceiue you are very ignorant , if you know not what it is . I answere , It is the Scriptures or the Word of God .

Philip ,

How shall I speake the language of Canaan , or the Word of God in the Spanish tongue . You haue asked an vnanswerable question .

George ,

How can you indeed speake it , you being prohibited the reading thereof , and being vnlearned , as you say : but the Scriptures ( as saith one in answere to a Popish rime ) amongst you Papistes lurketh in a tongue vnused , whereby poore people are abused . But properly the language of Canaan is to powre out the soule before the Lord in holy invocations and prayer , and that according to his Word . Which spirit of prayer whosoever hath not , cannot well talke with God , Isaiah . 19 . 1●redge● and if he cannot religiously talke with God , Rom. 15.6 . how should his speech be sanctified civilly to speake with men ? Psalme 141 . ●redge● And therefore the Prophet David saith ; Set a watch O Lord before my mouth , and keepe the doore of my lips . And againe , O Lord open thou my lips , Psal . 51.17 . and my mouth shall speake forth thy prayse . To this , the Apostle Paul exhorteth the Colossians , that their speech should be gratious alwayes . Colos . 4.6 . 1 Pet . 4. And in another place , Peter hath it ; If any man speake let him speake as the Word of God . And thus you heare what the language of Canaan is , wherein you may perceiue that you cannot speake graciously , when the word of grace is closed vp from you : neither can you speake according to the word of God , it being shut vp from you : it makes me grieue from the very heart to see you so blinded by your teachers .

Philip ,

And it makes me pittie you , to see you so deeply ingaged in the heresie and schisme of England .

George ,

No , no , pittie not me , for after the way which you and all of your Religion call heresie and schisme , will I worship & serue the liuing Lord , as S. Paul teacheth me .

Philip ,

You and I are but lay men , and no schollers , it belongeth not to vs to meddle with the Scriptures , but to Divines and Schollers , who vnderstand the originall tongues , in which the Scriptures were first written .

George ,

I grant that Bishops should be no young Schollers as you and I am , but doth this argue , that young Schollers may not looke into the Scriptures ; no sure , you can inferre no such conclusion ; for the Scriptures are as a deepe River , in which the mighty Elephant may swimme , and the little Lambes may drinke and quench their thirst . The greatest Clarkes are never able to sound the depth of the Scriptures in all points , and yet there are such plaine and expresse principles of saving truth threin contained , and that from thence may be easily collected , as may be well conceived by the meanest of Gods children , and therefore the Scriptures are not so hard and darke or obscure , as those of your Religion would make them ; there is milke for babes and also meate for strong men .

Philip ,

I am a Catholike , and of the true Church , which is the Church of Rome , which Church cannot erre , and therefore what that Church teacheth , that will I beleeue .

George ,

Indeed your Church doth hold , if that a man know some points of Religion , as the Doctrine of the God head , of the Trinitie , of Christ his incarnation , and of our Redemption , it is needlesse to know the rest by particular knowledge , but to giue his consent , and to beleeue as the Pastors beleeue . Now what is this but to maintaine Ignorance ; for when men shall be taught that for sundry points of Religion they may beleeue as the Church beleeveth ; that the studie of the Scriptures is not to be required of them ; yea , that to their good they may be barred the reading of them , if so be they know some poynts and principall things in the matters of faith ; that common beleevers are not bound expresly to beleeue all the Articles of faith ; that it sufficeth they beleeue the Articles of faith , by an Implicit faith , by beleeving as the Church beleeues . Few or none will haue care to profit in knowledge , if they obey these doctrines , contrary to Gods Commandements , that we should grow in knowledge , Coloss . 3.16 . and that his Word should dwell plentifully in vs.

Philip ,

Alas , alas , it pittieth me that you being an vnlearned man , should thus meddle with the Scriptures .

George ,

And it grieueth me that you should be so hoodwinked and blinded by your teachers ; but they deale with you as an vnskilfull and foolish Falkner doth by the Kingly bird the Falcon , who tyes to his lewer the wing of a Iackdaw , or a Magetepie , or of a carion Crow , and when he whistleth her off , and being aloft in her pitch , throwes vp his lewer and lewers her downe , and taints her with this carion flesh , and by this meanes maketh her sometimes fall and apt to sease vpon the like , and thus taints her ; so that when a more skilfull man flies her and whistles her off , expecting that from her pitch shee might fall at the spring or retriue of the Partridge in the field , or the Phesant out of the thicket , or the fowle out of the brooke , he is deceived , for shee leaues the view of these wholesome fowles , and espies some of the carrion birds , seasing vpon them by reason shee was so tainted . Even so it fareth with you , when any of our Pastors , or other skilfull Christians doe reason with you about the heavenly truth of the Word of God , which would nourish you vp vnto eternall life , then doe you sease vpon the carion invention of humane traditions , ( and leaue the wholesome food of the Word of God ) as these , the Church cannot erre , and we must beleeue as the Church beleeveth , by infoulded or implicit faith ; and also that Images are lay mens books , and yet the Scripture saith , that Images and Idoles are teachers of lyes . And the Prophet Habakuk saith , that the Iust man liues by his owne faith : and Paul also saith , I liue by faith in the Sonne of God . This shewes that we must liue and be saved by our owne particular faith , and not by the Implicit and vnknowne faith of the Church .

Philip ,

Your reasoning Sir , shewes you are an hereticke , and an enemy to the Doctrine of the Church of Rome , and therefore I will not beleeue you , but will maintaine Rome to be the true Church , and will hold her faith .

George ,

I perceiue you are ignorant , what the Church is , and also what is the faith of the Church , & therefore if it please you , I will ( as I haue learned ) describe the Church vnto you , and also the faith of the Church ; but the faith of the Church will be somewhat large , and therefore we will deferre that to our further meeting .

Philip ,

Further meetings man , doe you thinke that I dare haue priuate meetings with heretikes , so shall I incurre the censures of the Church , and my Confessour when I come to confession , will enioyne me pennance grieuously , more for this sinne of conference with heretickes perhaps , then for any other of my sinnes .

George ,

You still stile me heretike , but this is my comfort , if I be railed vpon for the name of Christ , the spirit of God and of Christ , doth rest vpon me . But Seniour Philip , let not the censures of your Church , and the penance enioyned by your Confessor dismay you , for you know that a small matter of your Indian-gold will command all : but if I could by my private perswasions through Gods blessing draw you to a holy liking of our Religion , it would also stop all your feare that way . Oh Seniour Philip , my heartie desire vnto God is , that you & many poore seduced soules that are in this Kingdome , yea , and many of my owne kindred in bloud , who are so deceived in the choice of their Religion , would better and more seriously looke into the Lords vineyard planted in this Kingdome by our Lord God and Saviour Iesus Christ . Oh , I say , that he would make you his adopted servants and children , and send you to his Labourers our reverend Pastors , who would not euilly intreate you , beate you , and send you away emptie , as those euill husbandmen mentioned in the Gospell , but would giue you of the Grapes , the juyce and wine whereof would be as Aqua vitae , even Water of eternall life vnto you .

Philip ,

You almost perswade me to become a Protestant .

George ,

It were your happinesse , if you were not almost but altogether a Protestant , and were assuredly perswaded of the truth of our Religion , and the falsenesse of your owne in many grounds of saving truth .

Philip ,

If I should condescend to haue often meetings to conferre , what should be the subiect of our speech and conference .

George ,

The Articles of the Christian or Catholike faith , which principles if a man well vnderstand in some reasonable maturitie of judgement , he shall the better vnderstand his reading of the Scriptures , and judge better of heresies and Controversies ; for against these principles , which is the analogie of fait● no exposition of Scripture may be received . It s called by Paul , the forme of Doctrine . It is like mount Nebo , which God set Moses vpon , to view the whole Land of Canaan . So he which is well grounded in these principles or analogie of faith , shall in some comfortable manner vnderstand the reading of all the holy Scriptures , and he shall the better vnderstand Divinitie , Lectures , and publike Sermons . I would to God our Pastors would be more diligent in Catechizing their seuerall flockes in the saving grounds of Gods truth . How would our Church abound in the knowledge of God , Isa . 53 11. Ioh . 17.3 . and of Iesus Christ ; the saving knowledge of whom is eternall life . What a flourishing Church should we haue , as I haue seene and heard in one Parish in the Suburbes of London for experience , I meane Shoreditch ; a place well knowne formerly to be full and abounding in wickednesse , but now better reformed : the youth by Catechizing so wonderfully instructed in the principall grounds of the Lords truth , that it hath joyed my heart to heare and see it : the painefull labours of their Pastor through Gods blessing hath so prospered , that many of the youth can in a manner repeate every verse or Sermon they heare verbatim , repeating both the divisions and subdivisions , and the proofes of Scripture for every division . This I will say , thankes be to God that many of our Pastors by this kind of teaching haue done worthily , but the Pastor of Shoreditch surmounteth them all in my judgment , I meane so many as I haue beene acquainted with , in their Ministery ; I am not acquainted with the man , nor he with me , but I hope I may glorifie God in his just commendation .

Philip ,

But is this the onely way to the obtaining of the knowledge of salvation ?

George ,

I doe not say it is the onely way , for a man may come to the knowledge of these grounds by hearing Sermons , by conference , by reading the Scriptures , and by private studie : but I say , without the knowledge of these principall grounds there can be no salvation : and I say that a man may be ignorant of some grounds , and yet be saved , so that his Ignorance be not affected in a dead securitie , he vsing meanes daily to increase his knowledge . And if it pleased God that the temporall power and the discipline of our Church , wou●d more vrge this manner of teaching , that the severall families of your Religion , I meane the Papists , might come to the Churches though the governours doe not , yet their children and servants to be instructed in these heavenly grounds of truth ; for I imagine the children and seruants not so setled in the dregs of that Religion as the governors are : Oh , how would it be a meanes to advance the Arke of Gods truth in their severall families , and a meanes of the fall of the Idolatrous Dagon of Popery . Also I would it were vrged more vpon our prophane Protestants , who are indifferent what Religion they be of . How would it dispossesse Satan of his severall habitations , by ignorance and other accustomable sinnes of this wicked world .

Philip ,

Well , since we haue entered thus farre into discourse , let mee heare your description of the Church , that I may know how to yeeld due obedience vnto her .

George ,

Although I am a poore , weake , and vnworthy man to vnfold this mystery vnto you , yet as well as I can , and haue learned , I will make knowne the Church vnto you , according to my promise .

Philip ,

Come on , let me know now what is the Church ?

George ,

I answere ; That the Church is two wayes to be vnderstood , as it is visible , and also as it is invisible . As it is invisible it is properly and indeed the Church of Christ . But giue me leaue , Seniour Philip , a little to digresse . You told me even now of the treasure your King and Countrey is inriched with by Gold from India . I thanke God our Countrey and King is stored with all manner of necessary temporall treasures , yea , in abundance , for our maintenance , for the Weale publike , and common state thereof , aboue many our neighbour Countries . Besides , God hath inriched our Land with treasure farre surpassing the gold of India , yea of Ophir ; which you if you will play the good Merchant factor whilst you are here , you may inrich your selfe , I meane not with the transitory things of this life , for that is naturall and desired of all men : but I meane the supernaturall treasure of Gods holy truth , the principall jewell whereof is Christ Iesus , whose righteousnesse will so inrich you , that you shall be accepted of God as gloriously perfect and pure in his sight . This can no man by nature desire or thirst after , but onely he which is indued with supernaturall grace from heaven . I tell you , Seniour Philip , this treasure is everlasting , and an induring substance , never vanishing ; for if I should prodigally bestow on you all that small mite of this treasure , which God in mercy hath inriched me with , I should be never the poorer , but increase my talent greatly : but if you should in a prodigall mind giue me all your Indian Gold , you would make your selfe but poore , and a begger .

Philip ,

Well , come Seniour George , let me heare your further description of the invisible Church .

George ,

The Church , I say , which is properly , truely , and indeed the Spouse and Church of Christ , is , as I haue said , invisible , and also mysticall and spirituall , it is also the blessed , and happie , and sanctified , and holy Church of Christ : the severall members whereof haue to their great comfort evident markes set on them by God , whereby it may be knowne , that they are vnited to this mysticall bodie .

Philip ,

I thought you would venture to deale in high points that are too deepe for your vnderstanding , you being ignorant and vnlearned , altogether without Arts , either of Logicke , or Rhetoricke , or other Sciences ; you haue no languages , no not so much as the common Latine tongue , and therefore how can you edifie any in these deepe points wanting these helpes .

George ,

I grant that Arts , and languages , and humane learning , are good gifts of God , and good handmaids vnto Divinitie and Theologie : but you dignifie the handmaid , and disgrace the Mistresse . Nay , I know that there be many , not onely of your Religion , but of ours also , that doe so much advance in their affection , secular and humane learning , being the seruant , that in a manner they thrust the Mistresse Theologie or Divinitie out of the dores of their hearts . Nay , I tell you Seniour Philip , that Arts , learning , and gifts of tongues , be but as the wisedome of the Serpent , if they be advanced aboue , or not ioyned with the Mistresse Divinitie , the innocent Doue to serue her as her servants and inferiours . For Arts and humane learning doth but proue by Arguments of things proposed or in question , whereby reason may be inlightened or informed , which is of things which reason can reach vnto ; but Divinitie Preached , doth beget faith , which faith doth apprehend and assent vnto things supernaturall , which reason cannot attaine vnto , and therefore faith resteth it selfe vpon the testimony of the word and spirit of God : as the Prophet Isaiah saith , who hath beleeved our report ; so that faith relieth vpon the report of the Prophets and Apostles . Ioh . 2.25.26.27 . We may see a very good example hereof , even in Thomas , who would not beleeue the report of the Disciples of Christs resurrection , except he might haue an argument to proue it to his sence and reason , he would not beleeue ; For , saith he , vnlesse I shall see the print of the nailes in his hands , and shall thrust my finger into the prints , I will not beleeue . And the Disciples being together eight dayes after , Thomas being with them , Christ came and said to Thomas , Bring thy finger hither , and see my hands , and bring in thy hand , and thrust it into my side , and be not faithlesse but faithfull . Obserue here how our Saviour doth reproue him , because he would not beleeue the Disciples report , but would haue that which they had spoken prooved by an argument to his sence and reason : Vers . 29. and therefore Iesus saith vnto him , Thomas , because thou hast seene me , thou hast beleeved , blessed are those which haue not seene and yet haue beleeved . And the Author to the Hebrewes saith , Heb . 11.1 . That faith is the evidence of things vnseene . And out of mine owne experience , the simple preaching of the faith in the naked , plaine , and simple stile of the Scriptures , vsing also the phrases not refined by Art , but such simply as the Word of God vseth , doth more good in converting sinners vnto God , then those who vse the loftie stile and phrases coyned by Art.

Philip .

But seniour George , is there no vse of Art and learning in the Ministery of the Word ?

George ,

God forbid I should say so ; for Moses was learned in all the wisedome of the Egyptians ; and Paul was learned , and saith , 1 Tim . 3.6 . that a Bishop may not be a young Scholler : and he saith to Titus , Tit . 1.9 . that an Elder must be able to exhort with wholesome doctrine , and convince them that say against it . Which sheweth that learning is necessary in a Minister to maintaine Gods truth against all wicked men and heretickes , who by their learning will oppose the truth : it is good in a learned auditorie ; but he is a good Doctor which can teach to the capacitie of the simplest ; and to the learned also when occasion serueth .

Philip ,

But I pray you proceede in your description of the Church , without further digression : How is it invisible , that which you say is properly the bodie and Church of Christ .

George ,

First therefore I will shew that it is the body of Christ , then next that it is his invisible body . The first is prooved by Paul ; So we being many are one body in Christ , Rom. 12.5 . and every one one anothers members : for by one spirit are we all baptized into one body , whether we be Iewes or Gentiles , whether we bond or free , 1 Cor . 1.13 . and haue beene all made to drinke into one spirit . So that you see by this Text , that this vnion with Christ is by the Baptisme of the spirit , whether we be Iewes or Grecians , all makes one bodie : Vers . 27. now ye are the body of Christ , and members for your part . And to adde one place more , the Apostle saith , 1 Cor . 10.17 . We being many are one bread and one body : for we are all partakers of one bread . I thinke these places doe sufficiently proue it to be the body of Christ : besides other places , as in the Collossians . Besides , Col. 1.24 . as a husband and a wife are no more twaine but one flesh , so is Christ and his Church but one spirituall body , Chap. 2.19 . Ephe . 1.23 . 2 Cor . 11.2 . for Christ is the head and husband thereof ; for I haue prepared you for one husband , to present you as a pure virgin vnto Christ : and in the Revelation it is said by Iohn , that he saw the new Ierusalem come downe from God out of heaven , Rev. 21.2 . prepared as a bride trimmed for her husband . Now what a heavenly thing it is to be of this Church , and of this body . What a blessed Communion haue they that are thus vnited to Christ ? This is the right communion of Saints ; and this is double , first the fellowship and communion with the body , and one member with another ; next the fellowship and communion with Christ the head . And this is explained by S. Iohn , in these words ; That I say which we haue seene and heard declare we vnto you , that yee also may haue fellowship with vs , and that our fellowship also may be with the Father , and with his sonne Iesus Christ . Wicked men doe delight and brag of their good fellowship in wickednesse and vanitie , but such as walke in some measure in a good Conscience in the wayes of God , what fellowship and company haue they ? See what the Author to the Hebrewes saith ; Heb . 2.2 3.4 But yee are come vnto the mount Sion , and to the Cittie of the living God , the celestiall Ierusalem , and to the company of innumerable Angels , and to the assembly and Congregation of the first borne , which are written in heaven , and to God the Iudge of all , and to the spirits of iust and perfect men , and to Iesus the Mediator of the new Testament , and to the bloud of sprinkling , that speaketh better things then that of Abell . What fellowship can be compared to this glorious communion of Saints ? Oh happie man is he that inioyeth this fellowship !

Philip ,

Indeed you say true , but I pray how is it invisible ?

George ,

I answer , thus it is not in vs to discern the reprobate from the elect , 2 Tim . 2.19 . therefore it is said in Timothy , the Lord knoweth who are his ; Col. 3.3 . and in the Colossians , yee are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God ; as if he should haue said , you are dead in respect of the knowledge of the world ; yea and of your fellow members in the world ; for your life is hid with Christ in God , secret from the knowledge of all other ; God knoweth the hearts ; for it is said in the Acts thou Lord which knowest the hearts of all men . Act. 1.14.15 . And againe , Rom 8.27 . God which knoweth the hearts : and but he that seacheth the hearts . All the Israelites knew Nathaniell to be an Israelite , but not to be one without guile : this our Saviour onely knew , who seeth the very hearts , and therefore gaue testimony of him certainly , Ioh . 1.47 . which men could not doe ; Behold indeed an Israelite in whom there is no guile . If a man professe zeale to Religion , Ioh . 21.15 . and loue to Christ , as Peter did , charitie is prone to beleeue he doth it indeed , as all charitable persons will coniecture he doth so , as long as they see no cause to the contrary : but that this zeale and loue is found and sincere , that it proceedeth from a pure heart , 1 Tim . 1.5 . and a good Conscience , and faith vnfained , God onely which knoweth the heart can pronounce ; one Christian may to his comfort judge of the blessed spirituall estate of a Christian brother , but this is a judgement conjecturall of charitie , and not of infallible certaintie . And thus I hope I haue in some measure and reasonable manner prooved vnto you the Invisibilitie of the Church .

Philip ,

But how is this proper body of Christ misticall ?

George ,

It is so called , because the mystery of their coniunction is hidden from our sence and reason .

Philip ,

Is there no place of Scripture to proue it mysticall ?

George ,

Ephes . 5.32 . Yes ; in the Ephesians , This is a great secret , but I speake concerning Christ , and concerning the Church . From the 22. to the 32 verse , the Apostle wisheth wiues to submit themselues to their husbands ; the reason is because he is the head as Christ is the head of the Church . And in the 30. verse , it is said , For we are members of his body , of his flesh , and of his bones : and in the 32. verse , he saith , this is a great secret , and therefore mysticall , but I speake concerning Christ and concerning the Church , as if he should say , the coniunction between man and wife may be knowne , but the coniunction between Christ and his Church is secret , and therefore mysticall , and therefore we must needes conclude , that the Church is his mysticall body .

Philip ,

But how is this bodie of Christ spirituall ?

George ,

I answere , the beginning of the new birth is the gracious worke of the spirit of God , and therfore every regenerate man is a spirituall man , such as the beginning is , such must he be which is borne a new : this new beginning , which is spirituall , must needs produce a spirituall estate , and therefore those persons which by the mercy of God are brought out of the state of corrupted nature , into the state of grace by new birth , are tearmed spirituall men . Furthermore , that the body of Christ as it is invisible and mysticall ( as which alreadie I haue proved ) so it is also spirituall . First I proue it from the spirituall birth thus ; for Paul saith to the Galatians , Gal. 4.29 . As then he that was borne after the flesh persecuted him that was borne after the spirit ; even so it is now : so then he that is borne a spirituall man , is so called , as in the Corinths , but he that is spirituall discerueth all things . 1 Cor . 2.15 . Gal 6.1 . Rom. 8.5 . And in the Galatians , yee which are spirituall ; and to the Romans , but they that are after the spirit sauour the things of the spirit . And in Peter , yee also as living stones be made a spirituall house . 1 Pet . 2.5 . Spirituall is opposed vnto carnall . How we should behaue our selues as spirituall men , we shall heare anone .

Philip ,

But how is this body of Christ holy ?

George ,

Thus farre of the proper Church of Christ , as it is his body , as it is invisible , mysticall , and as it is his spirituall bodie . Now to answere to your Question , it is holy two wayes : first , by Iustification , and secondly by Sanctification .

Philip ,

What is Iustification ?

George ,

I answere , that it is certaine , that all those which are by Gods free goodnesse and mercy mystically vnited vnto Christ , and be his invisible and spirituall body , must needs be perfect , pure , and holy in Gods sight , for in that body there must be no putrified and corrupted members , and therefore I answere againe to your Question , that Iustification is an action of God whereby he pardoneth and absolveth a sinner , and accepteth of him as pure , righteous , and holy in his sight .

Philip ,

But how are they made pure , holy , and righteous in his sight .

George ,

By Gods mercifull divine imputation of the perfect holinesse and righteousnesse of Christ , vnto all these his spirituall members .

Philip ,

What be the Scriptures you proue it by ?

George ,

2 Cor . 5.21 . First in Paul to the Corinths , he saith , For he hath made him to be sinne for vs which knew no sinne , that we should be made the righteousnesse of God in him : Rom. 5.19 . and to the Romans , for as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners , so by the obedience of that one shall many be made righteous : and in the Canticles Christ saith to his Spouse and Church , Cant . 4.7 . Reve . 12.1 . Thou art faire my loue , and there is no spot in thee . And in Revelat . there appeared a great wonder in heaven , a woman clothed with the Sunne , and the Moone was vnder her feete , and vpon her head a crowne of twelue stones . But where was this wonder in heaven , in the glorious and joyfull estate of the Church of grace , vnder the Ministery of the Gospell , which in many places is called the kingdome of heaven , as in Math . 11. is , and 21.1 . and 15.1 . but what was this wonder ; a woman clothed with the Sunne , this woman is generally the whole Church militant here vpon the earth : specially and particularly every true beleever , Iosea . 2.19 . because all such are married to Christ . Now in that this woman is said to be clothed with the Sunne , thereby is signified Gods mercifull imputation of Christs his righteousnesse , so clothing her like a wedding garment , that God by meanes thereof seeth no sin in her . For being spiritually clothed with this garment of Christs righteousnesse , shee doth appeare glorious , holy , and righteous in Gods sight . And by the Moone vnder her feete is meant all mutable profits , pleasures , and promotions of this world , yea , and of her owne poore and imperfect righteousnesse and sanctification in this world , which shee may well be said also in some sort to treade vnder her feete , because she accounteth them not as garments wherewith shee must appeare absolutely just before God , & justified in his sight , but in that respect rather with S. Paul , doth count them as dung ; Phil . 3.8 . Isaiah . 64.6 . and with the Prophet Isaiah , as a menstruous cloth . So that whatsoever is wanting vnto this Church , or to any member of it , either of spirituall wisedome , and knowledge , or of holinesse and righteousnesse , or for matter of merit and satisfaction , to answere Gods justice , and to free it from the guilt of sinne and Gods wrath due thereunto , it is all abundantly supplied in Christ ; which is all plainly shewed in one verse in Paul to the Corinthians .

Philip ,

Is all this to be prooved in one verse , I pray you let me heare it ?

George ,

The first to the Corinths 1.30 . 1 Cor . 1.30 . But yee are of him in Christ Iesus , who of God is made vnto vs wisedome and righteousnesse and sanctification and redemption : all the treasures of the Gospell are in Christ stored vp for vs : in him is all perfection of wisedome and knowledge of God , both of his essence and subsistance ; or persons , the vnion of both natures , with the communion of the properties of both natures that worke for our redemption , together with all knowledge both of God and of the workes of God , which we are bound to know , which is all of it by Gods gracious gift freely given vnto this his Church : and he is made vnto vs righteousnesse , because whatsoever the Lord did or doth require , touching Religion toward God , or charitie toward men , this is all likewise treasured vp also in him , and performed by him , and given by like gift of God to this his Church : and he is made vnto vs sanctification , because whatsoever inherent holinesse and righteousnesse and puritie of nature in the will and affections , and in the whole man , was by the Law required of vs , it is most perfect in him , and is bestowed also on this invisible Church : and he is made redemption vnto vs : redemption , I say , from all power of sinne : redemption from all guiltinesse , whereby we are bound by the Law to vndergoe the punishment of sinne , and redemption from the punishment it selfe ; all which is treasured vp in Christ , and the benefit of it by God mercifully imputed vnto this Church . Thus I hope I haue in some reasonable manner proved the holinesse of this Church by justification .

Philip ,

Now let me heare how this spirituall bodie and Church of Christ is by sanctification made holy ?

George ,

I answere , that as no man can come to Christ , except the Father draw him : Ioh . 6.44 . so none that are drawne to Christ , but are mystically and spiritually knit vnto him ; now it pleaseth the Father to send the spirit to make this blessed marriage between Christ & his Spouse the Church . Which Church being thus vnited vnto Christ , it is made also partaker of inherent holinesse from Christ her head and husband derived vnto her , and is in part also inherently sanctified by his spirit ; And so by meanes of this sanctification , the Church militant is in part inherently holy in this world ; howsoever here indeed these spirituall members of Christ receiue but the first fruits of the spirit of holinesse , Rom. 8.23 . the full vintage they shall haue when they triumph in glory : 1 Thes . 4.1 . therefore the Apostle Paul willeth vs to increase more and more : 2 Pet 3.18 . and Peter exhorts to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Iesus Christ . And the Author to the Hebrewes saith , Heb . 6.1 . let vs goe forward to perfection ; and although this spirituall body and Church of Christ militant be not perfect in degrees of holinesse , yet it pleaseth the holy Ghost by the Ministery of Peter , Exod . 14.6 . 1 Pet . 2 9. Rev. 11.9 . And 12.19 . to call them a chosen generation , a royall Priesthood , an holy Nation : and in the Revelation , the holy Cittie : this sanctification and holinesse of this militant Church , hath two parts , the first is mortification , or killing our naturall corruption , or originall sinne ; the second is vivification , whereby this Church is renewed in the Image of God in righteousnesse and true holinesse . Mortification is prooved by Paul , Gala . 5.24 . in these words ; They which are Christs haue crucified the flesh , with the affections and lustes thereof . Read for this Rom. How shall we that are dead to sinne , Rom. 6.23.4 . liue yet therein . Know yee not that all we which haue beene baptized into Iesus Christ , haue beene baptized into his death . We are then buryed with him by Baptisme into his death , that like as Christ was raised vp from the dead to the glory of his Father , so should we also walke in newnesse of life . The meanes that worke mortification is the death and buriall of Christ ; Rom. 6.6 . as in Rom. Our old man is crucified with him that the body of sinne might be destroyed .

Vivification is the second part of this inherent holinesse of the invisible militant Church of Christ , whereby they are in part renued in holinesse and righteousnesse , by which the Image of God is againe repayred in them : Eph. 4.23.24 . for which I proue by Paul to the Ephesians , in these words ; And be renued in the spirit of your mind : and put on the new man which after God is created vnto righteousnesse and true holinesse . And the same Apostle saith to the Galatians ; but I liue , yet not I any more , Gal. 2.20 . but Christ liveth in me : and in that that I now liue in the flesh , I liue by the faith in the Sonne of God , who hath loved me , and given himselfe for me . And againe , he saith to the Ephesians ; Ephe . 2.1 . And you hath he quickned which were dead in trespasses and sinnes . So that you may by these places perceiue , that the matter of the Churches life of grace in holinesse is Christ , who dwelleth in the heart by faith . To this end Paul to the Corinthians saith ; 1 Cor . 15.45 . The first man Adam was made a living soule , and the last Adam was made a quickning spirit .

The efficient cause of mortification and vivification , and of our whole sanctification , is the spirit of God , who by his vnresistable power convayes himselfe into the regenerate and beleeving mans heart , & doth in them apply the power of Christ his death and resurrection ; and by this createth holinesse , as in the Rom. Now yee are not in the flesh , but in the spirit , Rom. 8.9.11 . because the spirit of God dwelleth in you ; but if any man haue not the spirit of Christ , the same is not his . Vers . 11. But if the spirit of him that raised Christ from the dead dwell in you , he shall also quicken your mortall bodies by his spirit that dwelleth in you . And in Iohn ; Ioh . 6.63 . Math . 3.11 . Ioh . 3.5 . It is the spirit that quickeneth . The spirit is resembled to fire and water , both which haue cleansing natures .

Philip ,

Is there no other meanes whereby the holinesse of this spirituall and militant body and Church of Christ is effected .

George ,

Yes ; there are two other meanes whereby this Church is made holy : the first is faith , the second , is the Word of God .

Philip ,

How is faith a meanes to make this Church holy ?

George ,

I answere , that it is a cleare case in Divinitie , both in the Old and also in the New Testament , that Christ Iesus is the seede of the Woman that should breake the Serpents head : Which was promised to our first parents Adam and Eue ; and it is also cleare , that he is of the seed of Abraham and David , vnto whom this promise was renued : and it is manifestly cleare also , that this Christ Iesus is the soveraigne plaster and medicine for the cure of all the sores , botches , boyles , and plagues of our sinnes ; and also it is cleare that the receipt of this soveraigne medicine is our cure , and none doe receiue this for the cure of them , but the members of this invisible and spirituall body , or Church of Christ . Now I answere againe to your question , that faith doth it by applying this soveraigne medicine to the wounds and sores of our sinnes . I would haue you to consider what is the nature of faith . In faith there is three things distinctly to be considered , as I take it : the first is apprehension , whereby a man in his vnderstanding doth know Christ to be a soveraigne medicine for sinne . The next is assent , whereby a man doth acknowledge him to be a true medicine , able perfectly to cure his sinne . The third is application , whereby a man doth lay and apply this soveraigne medicine to the sores of his sinnes . And thus doth faith justifie before God , and maketh holy in this world evangelically and in part . There be three speciall Theologicall vertues , without the which God doth not saue any ; these are faith , hope , and loue ; faith apprehendeth and applyeth the promises of grace in Christ ; hope expecteth and patiently waiteth for the accomplishment of them ; loue is so inflamed with them , that it being as the hand of faith , it worketh by way of thankfulnesse all duties of Religion , both of pietie towards God and justice and true charitie towards man . Now all these three vertues are given of God . That faith is his gift , is prooved by these places and many more . First , to the Philippians ; For vnto you it is given for Christ , Phil . 2.29 . that not onely you should beleeue in him , but also suffer for his sake . And in the Hebrewes ; Looking vnto Iesus the Author and finisher of your faith . Heb . 12.2 . And that faith doth purifie and make holy , these places make plaine ; By faith he purified their hearts . Act. 15.9 . And againe , that they may receiue forgiuenesse of sinnes , And 26.8 . and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith in me . And thus I haue prooved the holinesse of the Church by the meanes of faith . Now that the Word of God is a meanes also of the Churches holinesse , I proue it thus . First , there is no saving knowledge of God , or of Christ , or of the spirit , and the worke of the Father through the Sonne by the spirit , but it is the Word that revealeth it vnto vs , and that most purely if wee haue the spirit truely to discerne it and conceiue it , and therefore the Word doth make holy , by declaring the forme and manner of holinesse , which God worketh and requireth to be in all his children . I say it is the outward meanes by which God doth call vs and frame vs vnto holinesse . It is the Lords pruning hooke , whereby he trimmeth and pruneth the trees of mens hearts , to make them bring forth fruits of holinesse ; which if it effect not , it is his Axe to hew them downe for the fire . David saith , the Word of God is prooved most pure , Psal 119.40 . Ioh . 17.17 . 1 Tim . 4.5 . and therefore them whom it winneth vnto God , it maketh holy and pure . Paul saith , All creatures are sanctified by the Word , therefore his children whom he hath newly created in his owne Image are sanctified and made holy by it . Exod . 19.10 . Moses was commanded to sanctifie the people , when the Lord was to come downe vpon mount Sinai in their fight ; even so must the Ministers of God , sanctifie and make holy by the Word , those that must appeare before God in the heavenly mount Sinai . I might alledge many reasons to prooue that the Word is the outward meanes of the holinesse of the Church , which for brevitie sake I omit . And thus I haue proved the holinesse of this invisible Church both by Iustification and also by sanctification .

Philip ,

What meaneth the word Catholike , and which is the Catholike Church ?

George ,

Your question is good , and as well as I can I will satisfie your demand therein : by the word Catholike , as I take it , is meant a generalitie , both of the Articles of faith , and also of the members of the Church . For this word Catholike hath relation to both . There is but one faith which is generall , and every Article particularly severed , is as a part of that whole frame ; and so also the Church is but one , and every particular member is as a part of the whole . Now , this word Catholike doth note out the large extent and vniversalitie of the Church , and also of faith . It is called Catholike , for three causes ; for , first it is generall in respect of time , because the Church and the faith thereof , haue beene in all times and ages of the world : secondly , it is generall in respect of the persons of men : for it stands of some of all sorts and degrees of men , high and low , rich and poore , learned and vnlearned : thirdly , it is vniversall in respect of place , because it hath beene gathered from all parts of the earth . All the Articles of faith are of things vnseene ; as it is in the Hebrewes ; Heb . 11.1 . Now faith is the ground of things which are hoped for , and the evidence of things which are not seene . And the Church which we professe to beleeue in the Creede is invisible , as I haue proved . And it is called Catholike , to distinguish it from particular Churches which are seene with the eye , and not beleeved ; as looke to the Corinthians , where it is said ; The Churches of Asia salute you ; 1 Cor . 16.19 . Col. 4.15 . Act. 11.22 . Act. 13.1 . Aquila and Priscilla , with the Church that is in their house salute you greatly in the Lord . And againe , Salute Nimphas , and the Church which is in his house , and the Church of Ierusalem , and the Church of Antioch , and also the seaven Churches of Asia , mentioned in the Revelations .

Philip ,

But can you proue the Catholike invisible Church by the Scriptures ?

George ,

Yes , that I can , both by the Old and New Testaments . First in Abrahams time , the Church was not included in his Familie ; for Melchisedech was the Priest of the most high God , who lived in Abrahams time . And there were other catholike professors , Gen. 14.28 . whose Priest Melchisedech was . Againe , in the time of the Israelites bondage in Egypt , Moses flying into Midian , Exod . 2.21 . married the Priest of Midians daughter , which is probable he would not haue done if the Priest had not beene a catholike professor : I take it to be certaine that he was a catholike professor ; For when Moses told him all that the Lord had done vnto Pharaoh , Exod 18.8 . and to the Egyptians for Israels sake , and how the Lord had delivered them , therefore Iethro said , Blessed be the Lord who hath delivered you out of the hands of the Egyptians : and he saith , Vers . 10. Vers . 11. now I know that the Lord is greater then all the gods , for as they delt proudly with them , so are they recompenced : then Iethro Moses father in law , Vers . 12. tooke burnt offerings and sacrifices to offer vnto God , both his thankfull acknowledgement in blessing the Lord , and his confession of the greatnesse of the Lord aboue all other gods : and his offering sacrifice to God , doth shew him to be a true catholike . The catholike Church now in the time of the new Testament is especially generall and vniversall . Rev. 7.9 . To which purpose Iohn saith in the Revelation ; I beheld and loe a great multitude , which no man could number , of all nations and kindreds , people , and tongues , stood before the throne , and before the Lambe , clothed with long white robes , and palmes in their hands . And our Saviour saith , Math . 26.13 . The Gospell shall be preached throughout the world . And where it is preach●d , it begetteth faithfull children vnto God . And so much for the catholikenesse of the Church .

Philip ,

Now let me heare what you can say for the happinesse of this invisible Church .

George ,

The happinesse of this Church which is Christs invisible body , is vnspeakeable , and I am vnworthy of my selfe to vnfold it vnto you , but so farre forth as I haue learned by the Word of God , and the Ministery of our Church , I will by Gods grace vnfold it vn●o you , as I haue promised .

Philip ,

But wherein consistes the happinesse of this Church ?

George ,

The ground and efficient cause of the happinesse of this invisible Church , is Gods free election ; and the first entrance into this happinesse is his free reconciliation by meanes of the mediation of Christ . Rom. 8.

Philip ,

What is the happinesse which followes this reconciliation by the mediation of Christ .

George ,

Their happinesse is to be considered in three parts or respects ; first , in their life in this world ; secondly , in their death ; thirdly , after death .

Philip ,

Let me heare their happinesse in this life . 1 Cor . 5.27.17 . Gal. 6.15 . Ioh . 3.5 . Gal 4.16 .

George ,

First vpon reconciliation they are made new creatures , and are conceived of the spirit , in the wombe of the Church , and are borne not of bloud , ●oh . 6.13 . ●●al . 4.6.7 . nor of the will of the flesh , nor of the will of man , but of God , who in Christ is their father : so that the image of God their Father is renued in them every day more and more . Ephes . 4.2.3 . Col. 3.10.13 . Secondly , the members of this Church for the merits of Christ his actiue and passiue obedience in his sufferings and death , haue all their sinnes originall and actuall , with the guilt and punishment belonging to them , freely pardoned and forgiven them . Rom. 8.1 . 2. Rom. 4.8.25 . 1 Pet . 2.24 . And all the righteousnesse of Christ as freely imputed vnto them , and so God is reconciled vnto them , and approueth them as holy and righteous in his sight and account . Rom. 4.5.19 . 2 Cor . 5.19 . Rom. 8.33.34 . Thirdly , they are freed from the bondage of Satan , Act. 26.18 . Ephe . 2.2 . and are made brethren of Christ and fellow heires of his heavenly kingdome , Ioh . 20.17 . and spirituall Kings and Priestes , Reue . 1.6 . 1 Pet . 2.5 . to offer vp spirituall sacrifices vnto God by Iesus Christ . Fourthly , God spareth them as a man spareth his owne sonne that serveth him . Mal . 3.17 . This sparing them , is first in not taking notice of every fault , but bearing with them and their infirmities . No father that loveth his childe , will turne him out of his doores when he is sicke . Againe , secondly , he doth not make their corrections and chastisements as great as their deserts . Thirdly , God doth not afflict them as a severe judge , but moderately chastise them as a loving Father , when he seeth that they will not by any other meanes be reclaimed . Fourthly , God graciously accepteth their endeuours , notwithstanding the imperfection of their workes and obedience , and so preferring the true willingnesse of their mindes , before the worthinesse of their workes . Fiftly , he turneth the curses of the Law , which they deserue , to fatherly chastisements , crosses , and corrections , yea all things and all calamities of this life , death it selfe , yea their very sinnes vnto their good .

Fiftly , he giues them the holy Spirit , which first sanctifieth them by degrees throughout , so that they doe more and more die to sinne and liue to righteousnesse . Secondly , assures them of their adoption , & that they are by grace the children of God . Thirdly , encourageth them to come with boldnesse and confidence into the presence of Gods throne . Fourthly , moueth them without feare to say vnto him , Abba Father . Fiftly , poureth into their hearts the gift of true invocation and prayer . Sixtly , the spirit perswadeth them that both they and their prayers are accepted and heard of God , for the mediation of Christ . Seaventhly , the spirit fils them , first with peace of conscience : secondly , with joy in the holy Ghost : in comparison whereof , all earthly joyes seeme vile and vaine vnto them . Sixtly , the members of Christs spirituall body , haue the recovery of their soveraigntie over the creatures , which was lost by Adams fall , and they haue a free libertie of the vse of all things which God hath not restrained , so that they may vse them with a good conscience ; for to all things both in heaven and earth , they haue a sure title in this life , and they shall haue the full and peaceable possession of them in the life to come . It is cleare from hence , that all wicked reprobates are but vsurpers , and no better then theeues & robbers of all that they possesse , and haue nothing that they may lay lawfull claime to , nor no place of their owne but hell . Seaventhly , they haue assurance of Gods provident care and fatherly protection over them both day and night . Which care and protection consists in three things . First , in providing for their soules and bodies , concerning this life and that which is to come , so that they shall be sure ever either to haue enough or patience to be content with that they haue . Secondly , his holy Angels as Ministers he giveth charge to attend vpon them alwayes for their good : yea in danger to pitch their tents about them for their safetie where ever they be : yea Gods care and protection shall defend them as a cloud by day , and as a pillar of fire by night : and his providence shall hedge them from the power of the Deuill . Thirdly , in that the eyes of the Lord are vpon them , and his eares continually open to heare their cry & complaint , and in his good time to deliver them out of all their troubles .

Philip ,

It seemeth by this which you haue said , that the happinesse of this invisible Church is great , even in this life . But how are the severall members thereof happie in their death ?

George ,

Eccle . 7.3 . The holy Ghost saith in Ecclesiastes , The day of death is better then the day that one is borne . And David vpon this ground , saith ; ●al . 23.4 . Though I should walke through the valley of the shaddow of death , I will feare none evill . These spirituall members doe hold Christ even in life and death to be their advantage ; ●hil 1.2 . and count it the best ●o be loosed and to be with Christ ; They are blessed that die in the Lord , ●ev . 14 13. for they rest from their labours , both of sinne and of misery , and they doe pray vnto God that he would let them depart in peace , and why , because by the eye of faith they haue seene Christ Iesus to be their salvation : and they know that Christ hath overcome death , ●uk . 2.23.30 . and pulled out his sting , which is sinne : they know that Christ hath by the power of his death overcome him that had the power of death , Cor . 15.55.56.57 . which is the Deuill , that he might deliver all them which for feare of death were all their time subiect to bondage . Heb . 14.15 . Vnto these regenerate children of God , death is so well-come , that when God sends him as a messenger to fetch their soules out of this life , they in a manner meete him halfe way to heaven ; for their conversation and affection is in heaven alreadie , Phil . 3.10 . Col. 3.2 . sent thither before themselues , and death is no strange thing to them , for they exercise themselues to die daily : both from sin , and also with patience vnder the Crosse : no , the terrors of death doe not affright them , for they know that whilst they lived they were dead , Col. 3.3 . and that their life was hid with Christ in God : they are desirous to goe home to their fathers house out of this mortall pilgrimage , 2 Cor . 5.6 . Ioh . 14.2 . Heb . 12 22. &c. to the Cittie of the living God , the heavenly Ierusalem , to an innumerable company of Angels , to the generall assembly , &c. as I haue declared before . Touching the body of the Church , whilst they are sicke God will comfort them in their bed of sorrow , Psal . 41.3 . for God maketh all their bed in their sicknesse ; and he giveth them faith and patience to beare their sicknesse : and for the most part when they are beginning to enter into the conflict with death , which is the way of all flesh ; their behaviour is gracious to the comfort of their Christian friends about them , vttering gracious and blessed exhortations to their children , servants , and friends , to liue faithfully in the service of the true God all their life : yet oft times the violence of their diseases may be such that it hindereth the grace of their minde , that they cannot vtter the comfort to others as they would . The soules of this Spouse of Christ feare not death , neither temporall nor eternall , but are bold to remoue and to goe out of the body , and to dwell with the Lord : 2 Cor . 3.8 . and they doe with David , pant in soule after thee O God , their soule thirsteth for God , even for the living God : Psal . 42.2 . When shall we come and appeare before the presence of God . Th●y desire with Paul , Phil . 1.23 . to be loosed and to be with Christ : they doe pray , how long Lord , Rev. 6.10 . And 22.10 . which art holy and true , come Lord Iesus com● quickly ; and when their departure is come that they must die , they willingly yeeld vp the ghost , saying with David , into thy hands , O Lord , Psal . 32.5 . I commend my soule , for thou hast redeemed me , O Lord thou God of truth . And with Steven , Lord Iesus receiue my spirit . Act. 7.59 And they no sooner yeeld vnto nature , and giue vp the ghost , but the holy Angels , who attend vpon them from their birth to their death , Math . 18. Act. 12.15 . Luk . 16.21 . conveigh their soules to the kingdome of heaven , which is called Abrahams bosome . Now after their departing this life , the body is or ought to be by their Christian brethren and friends , reverently interred in the earth ; for the body though now dead , yet it remaines a member of the mysticall body of Christ ; for the spirit of God having knit Christ and his members together , death cannot sever them , 1 Thes . 4.14 . Act. 7.6 . And 8.2 . Dan . 12.2 . Ioh . 5.28.29 . Luk . 14.14 . 1 Thes . Rev. 14.15 . and it still remaines the Temple of the holy Ghost : and their buriall in the graue is but a lying to sleepe as in the bed of Christ , in an assured hope to be awaked in the resurrection of the lust , and the last day to be partakers with the soule of life and glory everlasting . And thus farre of their happinesse in their death .

Philip ,

And what is the happinesse of this invisible Church of Christ after death ?

George ,

As soone as the adopted childe of God hath yeelded the Ghost , and surrendred his soule into the hands of Christ , the Angels take the soule and carry it to the joyes of heaven ; Luk . 16.22 . for they are all ministring spirits , Heb . 1.14 . And 12.24 . sent forth to minister for their sakes which shall be heires of salvation : and to heaven they carry them vpon their dissolution , and in soule they possesse that place which Christ at his ascension into heaven prepared for them ; for he saith ; Ioh . 14.2 . I goe to prepare a place for you , vers . 3. and that where I am there may you be also , and there they are presented before God , and Christ , and all the blessed company of heaven , and there they are crowned with the crowne of righteousnesse and glory , Heb . 12.22.23.24 . ● Tim . 4.8 . Rev. 2.10 . Exod . 33.2 . Rev. 22.4 . Psal . 17.17 . which the Lord the righteous Iudge will giue them . In this life they could see but Gods backe parts ; for ( said God to Moses ) thou canst not see my face and liue ; but now they are come to see his face . And David saith , I will behold thy face in righteousnesse , and when I awake I shall be satisfied with thine Image . The blessednesse and happinesse of their soules is vnspeakeable .

Philip ,

What is the happinesse of these invisible and spirituall members of Christ at the Resurrection and last day of Iudgement ?

George ,

The manner of the last day of Iudgement shall be thus ; Vpon the signes of the comming of Christ , the elect being then aliue , Luk . 21 . 2● . shall lift vp their heads with reioycing : and at that day they shall receiue the crowne which the righteous Iudge shall giue them , 2 Tim . 4.8 . which they loved and longed for to receiue at his appearing .

Philip ,

What be the signes of the last day of Iudgement ?

George ,

Immediately before the comming of Christ , the powers of heaven shall be shaken , Ma. 24.29.30 the Sunne and Moone shall be darkned , and the Starres shall fall from heaven , and then shall the wicked mourne , Luk . 21.26 . and their hearts shall fayle them for feare .

Philip ,

What will come of all things here in this inferiour world at the day of Iudgement ?

George ,

The elementary heavens shall be set on fire , and suddenly passe away like a scroule , and the elements of earth and water , 2 Pet . 3.12.13 and all the creatures in them shall be dissolved with fire . When all these things shall be done , the sound of the last Trumpet by the Arke-angell , and Christ shall come in a moment in the Clouds with power , and glory , and a great traine of Angels . Ma. 24 30.31

Philip ,

And what shall Gods children doe at that day , both that are living and dead ?

George ,

The dead bodies of the elect which are returned into their first principles , shall be by the powerfull working of God recallected and gathered of the same matter which was severed and scattered into all the elements , 1 Cor . 15.22 . And 43.44 . 1 Cor . 15.52 . even the selfe same bodies they laid downe in death , though torne in peeces , shall rise againe , and the soules of them shall descend from heaven , and by Gods power be brought againe into those bodies , and this shall be at the sound of the Trumpet . And as for those that be then living , they shall be changed in a moment ; and this mutation shall be in stead of death . And at that time all the bodies of the elect shall receiue their full redemption , and be made like the glorious body of Christ ; and therefore glorious , spirituall , immortall , and free from all corruption or infirmities .

Philip ,

And what is the issue and end of this their glorious Resurrection ?

George ,

That they may receiue the sentence of eternall absolution , for when they are all Convented before the tribunall seate of Christ , he will forthwith place the elect severed from the reprobate , and taken vp into the ayre at his right hand , and to them being written in the booke of life , he will pronounce this sentence ; Come you blessed of my Father , Math . 25.33.34 . possesse the Kingdome prepared for you from the beginning of the world . And again , He shall set the sheepe on his right hand , and the goats on his left , and the elect shall ever be with the Lord : 1 Thes . 4.17 . and then after the sentence passed , shall every one of the elect receiue the crowne of eternall glory , which Christ the righteous Iudge doth giue them who loved his appearing : 2 Tim . 4.8 . 1 Pet . 5.4 . Rev. 4.4 . not as a reward for their merites , but as a reward of free mercy and grace , according to his promise . Then shall they sit on their thrones as Iudges of the reprobate both Angels and men , as approovers of the righteous Iudgement of Christ . From this glorious throne and tribunall seat , Christ shall arise , and with all his glorious company of elect , both Angels and Saints , he shall goe vp triumphantly into the third loft of the heavens , the place of Gods most speciall presence : so that now may that song of David be truely verified ; God is gone vp with triumph , Psal 47.56 . even the Lord with the sound of the Trumpet : sing prayses to God , sing prayses sing prayses to our King . And the full consummation of the marriage betweene Christ and his Spouse the Church shall be proclaimed , and the marriage song mentioned in Iohn shall be sung , viz. Let vs be glad and reioyce , and giue honor to him , for the marriage of the Lambe is come , and his wife hath made her selfe ready : Halleluiah , for the Lord God omnipotent raigneth .

Philip ,

And what shall then be done when this glorious company shall be gone victoriously with Christ into heaven ?

George ,

I answere ; Christ shall then present all the elect vnto his Father , ●oh . 17.12 . ●●k 14.23.24 . as if he should say ; Behold O righteous Father , these are they whom thou hast given me , I haue kept them and none of them is lost . I gaue them thy Word , and they beleeved it , and the world hated them , because they were not of the world , even as I was not of the world ; and now Father , I will that those whom thou hast given me be with me where I am , that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me : and that I may be in them and thou in me , that they may be made perfect in me : ●oh . 12.16 . that the world may know that thou hast sent me , and that thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me .

Philip ,

And what is their estate now when Christ hath presented them vnto the Father after Iudgement ?

George ,

I answere ; that now they inioy immediate blessednesse in heaven .

Philip ,

What is heaven ?

George ,

It is a most excellent place , replenished with all pleasures that belong to eternall life , blisse , and happinesse : where the Maiestie of God is seene face to face : Chro . 30.27 for which cause it is called the habitation of holinesse : Cor . 12.2 . Cor . 5.1 . to 10. ●sal . 16.11 . and Paul was taken vp into the third heaven , a place after which the Saints are set a longing : here Gods presence and right hand is most manifested , for the fulnesse of joy and everlasting pleasures of his sonnes and servants . It is called , the heaven of heavens , or , the third heaven , called Paradice , whether Christ in his humane nature ascended farre aboue all visible heavens . We are not able to conceiue it , as in deed it is , it being a spirituall heaven , yet it is firme and transparent , otherwise should it not be a fit habitation for the bodies of men , which were not to hang in the ayre , but to rest in a solid place prepared of God . It pleaseth the holy spirit of God , considering our corrupted weakenesse , to describe the place of the glorious heaven , which we cannot estimate by such things as be most precious in mans account and estimation : and for this cause likeneth heaven to be as a great and holy Cittie , naming it the heavenly Ierusalem , where onely God and his people who are saved doe dwell , such as are written in the Lambes booke of life , as you shall see it further largely described in the 21. of the Revelations . Rev. 22. And so much for the place of their blessednesse : now for the substance and obiect of their blisse , it is God himselfe , whose most speciall presence is in this heavenly Ierusalem .

Philip ,

How is God blessednesse vnto his children in heaven ?

George ,

By giving himselfe to them for their reward . The Lord said to Abraham , I am thine exceeding great reward : Gen. 15.1 . marke the Lord saith ; I am thy reward ; nay more , I am thy great reward ; nay more , thy exceeding great reward . And David saith , Psal . 16.5 . the Lord is the portion of mine inheritance : and must not they be blessed that are thus rewarded ? Yes surely ; for the Psalmist saith , Blessed are the people whose God is the Lord . Now this is the reward of godly and good workes , not because the workes of the godly haue merited it , but by reason of Gods free favour , who accepteth their workes , and that in respect of the merit of Christs justice and righteousnesse imputed vnto the children of God . The wages of sinne is death , Rom. 6.23 . Rev. 22.12 . but eternall life is the gift of God through Iesus Christ our Lord . Behold I come shortly , and my reward is with me , to giue every man according as his workes shall be .

Philip .

But are you not able to shew how God doth giue himselfe for a reward vnto his children , and of their blessednesse thereby ?

George ,

Alas none is able to conceiue or speake to any purpose of it , much lesse to describe it : it is such an eternall weight of glory and blisse , that all the afflictions of this present life are not worthy of it . Yet if I shall relate some small scantling thereof , as I haue learned by the Word of God and Ministery of the Church , I hope I shall not be counted presumptuously bold , in regard that I am vnlearned : but my conscience beares me witnesse , my ends are good , which are these ; principally the glory of God ; next the edification of the private members of the mysticall body of Christ . It pleased God in the beginning of time to create the heaven and the earth , Rom. 1.20 . Gen. 1. and in them innumerable creatures ; by which creation his eternall power and Godhead are seene ; his workes being considered , and these creatures were all good , now these good creatures , from the least to the greatest , according to the agensie of their created natures , doe in some sort resemble their first efficient God himselfe , and looke wherein they doe resemble him , it pleaseth God to ascribe vnto himselfe , by giving vnto himselfe attributes accordingly : and why or what may be the reason , but onely to make himselfe better apprehended by vs and knowne vnto vs : he is aboue our conceiving , and therefore for the helpe of our simplicitie and weakenesse , he hath given vnto himselfe these attributes : God doth attribute vnto himselfe goodnesse , and in this attribute , all the creatures doe resemble him : but we must learne to know , how , and what is the difference betweene the goodnesse that is in God , Psal . 106.1 . and the goodnesse that is in creatures : the attributes of God are , as the learned say , given vnto him both in the Concret and also in the Abstract ; in the Concret , the Psalme last recited ; and in the Abstract , when he is said to be goodnesse it selfe , and so the alone good , as our Saviour speaketh . In the first , God is good , in the second Text , God is the chiefest good , the onely good , yea goodnesse it selfe . In creatures there are degrees of goodnesse , as some good , some better , some better then they , some best of all , and no creatures can goe any further in degrees then to be best of all : but God is aboue all degrees , for he is goodnesse it selfe ; and so it is in all other attributes : for creatures are limited , but God is without all limits , all attributes are infinite in God , for they are his very essence . A man may be a man , though not a wise man , and he may be a man , though not a strong man , and a man though not a beautifull man , he may be a man though not a great man : but God cannot be God , except he be wise , for wisedome is his essence ; and he cannot be God , except he be strong , beautifull , great , for he is wisedome it selfe , strength it selfe , beautie it selfe , and greatnesse it selfe . All these and many more of his attributes are infinite in him , for they are his infinite essence ; take them away , and you take away his very being . Who will show vs any good , Psal . 4.9 . saith the Psalmist in the person of the wicked ? Good is desired of all men , both godly and vngodly , but what good doth the wicked desire , even temporall , vanishing , and sensitiue good ; but the godly desire and seeke after the chiefe good , which is God himselfe , and therefore in the kingdome of blisse they enioy him for euer . God is the very Center of the soule of man . If a man should consider those good things with which the soules of men are delighted here below ; is a man delighted in wisedome , and by his labour and the blessing of GOD thereupon , hath attained a good measure of wisedome and knowledge : yet what saith the Apostle , let him that thinkes he knowes , and hath knowledge : know , that he knowes nothing yet as he ought to know : and if a man could attaine the wisedome of the wisest , even Salomon himselfe , yet would not the soule be filled till he obtaine the Center and essence of wisedome , God himselfe . Is it riches with which a man is delighted ? Why , here in earth the Canker and Moth corrupt , and our bagges waxe old , and the theefe commeth to steale , Mat . 6.19.20 . and therefore no securitie in them , though a man inioy abundance of them , nay the greatest abundance cannot satisfie the soule and mind of man , which will never be contented truely vntill it enioyeth the true treasure and essence of riches , God himselfe in the Kingdome of heaven . This is that riches which the children of God doe hunger and seeke after , and shall enioy everlastingly after Iudgement . Is it prayse and glory that men delight in ? Earthly glory oft turneth to shame to them that desire and earnestly seeke after it : but the children of God earnestly desire , delight , and seeke the glory of God , and God approoueth of them , and crowneth them with a crowne of eternall glory for euer . All men naturally desire life , yea long life , & it is a good blessing ; For ( saith Salomon ) long life is an honour to a man , if it be found in the way of righteousnesse . And sure in this world God is our life , but he is our life by meanes of his creatures , which are the elements and the elementary creatures composed of their mixture , but after this life he is life to his children immediately ; for he not onely hath life , which the creatures many of them haue , but he is life , which none of the creatures are . Which God is to his children by meanes of his elementary creatures , is but temporall , but as he is immediate life vnto them , it is eternall , and that is in heaven after Iudgement . To be short , I say whatsoever the soule of man doth delight in vpon the earth , take away the sinne of the delight , and God is it vnto them in an vnconceiueable and in an vnutterable manner , far beyond the delights of ten thousand worlds , if it were possible to inioy them . To proceede , after Iudgement God shall be all in all to his elect , for when all things shall be subdued vnto him , that is Christ , then shall the sonne also himselfe be subiect vnto him that did subdue all things vnto him , 1 Cor 15.28 . that God may be all in all . Oh what a happie and blessed eternall fellowship is there betweene God and his children , even an eternall cohabitation in heaven , through the Lambe Christ Iesus . Ioh . 14.23 . For our Savior saith in Iohn ; If any man loue me , he will keepe my Word , and my Father will loue him , and we will come vnto him and dwell with him . And againe ; Whosoever confesseth that Iesus Christ is the Sonne of God , 1 Ioh . 4.15 . God dwelleth in him and he in God . And the Cittie of their cohabitation the heavenly Ierusalem hath no neede of Sunne or Moone to shine in it : Rev. 21.23 . for the glory of the Lord God doth light it , and the Lambe is the light of it . And againe ; In the middest of the streete of it , and of either side of the river was the tree of life , which bare twelue manner of fruits , and gaue fruit every moneth : and the leaues of the tree served to heale the Nations with . Rev. 22.2 . vers . 5. And there shall be no night , and they need no Candle , nor light of the Sunne , for the Lord giveth them light : and they shall raigne for evermore . In this life the children of God , even the best of them , could but see Gods backe parts , and that by meanes of his Word and workes , but after Iudgement he hath inabled them to looke him in the face , even in his Maiesty and glory ; for so the Lord hath promised in the Revelation , in these words ; Rev 22.4 . And they shall see his face , and his name shall be in their foreheads : and for this doe Gods children pray with the Prophet David in these words ; Psal 4.7 . Lord lift vp the light of thy countenance vpon vs : and then in the sixteenth Psalme with the same Prophet , Psal 17.17 . I will behold thy face in righteousnes and when I awake I shall be satisfied with thine Image : Now are Gods children come to that estate that they hunger and thirst no more , their holy desires are fully and compleatly filled with pleasures for evermore ; now are they come to their perfection of glory : in not onely everlastingly beholding the glorious face of Gods most infinite and excellent maiestie : Reuel . 22.4 . Psal . 17.17 . but also in that they shall be most like to Christ in glory , namely , holy , incorruptible , iust , honorable , excellent , beautifull , strong , 1 Iohn 1.3.2 . Phil 3.21 . 1 Pet . 1.4 . Math . 25.34 . Rev. 5.10 . and 21.7 . mighty and nimble : they are now come perfectly to inherit Gods kingdome , even the new heaven and new earth shall be their inheritance . Thus farre I haue discoursed vnto you my poore meditations of the glory and blessednes of Gods Saints and Children in the kingdome of heaven after the iudgement .

Philip ,

And what are the effects and fruites that come of this glory and blessednes of Gods children .

George ,

I answere that it is first eternall ioy which is proved by the 16 Psal . vers . 16. in these words , thou wilt shew mee the path of life , in thy presence is the fulnes of ioy , and at thy right hand there is pleasure for evermore : and also the 36. Psal . verse 8. this ioy is eternall , for Christ saith , that our ioy shall no man take from vs : Seconly , the second fruit is the perfect service of God , as is plaine by these places , Revel . 21. verse 3. and 5. Chap. 12.13 and Chap. 11.17 . the manner of this service is to prayse and worship God by God himselfe immediately , for in heaven there is neither Temple , Ceremony , nor Sacrament , for all God himselfe together with the Lambe Christ doth supply , Revel . 21.22 . I saw no Temple therein , for the Lord God almightie , and the Lambe are the Temple of it : the service shall be dayly and perpetuall without intermission : for Iohn saith , they are in the presence of the throne of God , and serue him day and night in his Temple : and thus as well as I can , I haue described vnto you the invissible Church of God .

Philip ,

Well Seigneour George , I haue heard your discourse of the invissible Church , and by it you haue pleasured me something in passing the time in the wearisomenes of our walking .

George ,

Truely Seigneur Phillip , the passing the time in the wearisomnes of our walking is not the end I aymed at in my discourse , but the glorifying of God in your conversion and edification in , and to the truth of God .

Philip ,

For my conversion and edification let that passe , and proceede to that which as I remember you told me you would proue , that a converted childe of God might be assured of his salvation in this life , and that for ever in the life to come , he should remaine blessed for ever , if I forget not , you sayd so .

George ,

I did promise you so , and will indeavour as well as I can to proue it . And although I know that your Church doth oppose it , yet I take it no Article of religion is more cleare to be proved then it by the word of God .

Philip ,

Why our Church doth teach that none can be assured of his salvation , but by speciall revelation as the Apostle Paul was .

George ,

But our Church doth teach that a childe of God being converted may know by ordinarie faith that hee shall be saved .

Philip ,

Come let me heare you proue it , I feare you will doe it but slenderly .

George ,

First , I will shew you by the word of God , that a Convert may be assured : next the evident testimonies whereby he may in a lesse or greater measure , be infallibly assured of his salvation : for the first , I alledge first this place of Scripture written by the ministery of Peter thus , ● P●t . ● . 10 . Wherefore brethren giue rather diligence to make your calling and election sure : this precept is not to make the elect knowne and sure to God , for hee knowes them alreadie , being written in his booke of election , but it is to make it sure vnto themselues by Gods workes as the coherence of the place doth shew : the next place is out of Paul to the Corinthians in these words , now we haue received not the spirit of the world , ● Cor . 2.12 . but the spirit which is of God , that we might know the things that are given vs of God , in this place it is evident that what blessings soever the Lord bestoweth on his children whether they be temporall or spirituall , the spirit of God doth make them knowne to them , and assure them of them as that their Election , effectuall vocation , Iustification , Sanctification Salvation , Faith , Repentance , new Obedience , and whatsoever benefit from Christs whole mediation , accrueth vnto them . The next place is out of the 25. Psalme , in these words , the secret of the Lord is reueiled to them that feare him , and his couenant to giue them vnderstanding . Psal . 25.13 . In which place it is sayd that Gods secrets , even the secret of our election , is reveiled and made knowne vnto them , as also the covenant of grace , mercy and favours for their better vnderstanding : For what secret is it that he there speaketh of ? not the secret he revealeth to other men ; but the secret that hee worketh in themselues in particular and the covenant of fauour and grace that they may vnderstand it in particular : The fourth place is in the Revel . in these wordes , to him that overcometh will I giue to eate of the Manna that is hid , and will giue him a white-stone and in the stone a new name written , which no man knoweth , Rev. 2 . 1● . saving he that receiveth it : By this Manna is ment the bread of eternall life which is invisible , heavenly and spirituall , which is kept secret with God from before all eternitie : and by the white stone and new name is ment a signe and testimony of newnes of life , in holines and righteousnes , by putting on the newe man , that none doe know saue the spirit of man which is in himselfe being inward , thus farre haue I proved that a true Christian may be assured of his salvation .

Philip ,

But what are the evident testimonies whereby they doe know they are in an estate of grace and favour with God , and consequently that they shall be saved ?

George ,

I answere that all the elect not onely may be as I haue proved before , but are indeede made sure of their election , blisse and salvation , and this assurance they haue at the time of their effectuall calling , and not before , and this assurance is done many wayes : first there are two inward infallible testimonies of our salvation , the first is Gods spirit , the next is our spirit , both are mentioned in the 8. to the Romans , in these words , the same spirit beareth witnes with our spirit , that wee are the children of God ; Rom. 8.16 . the spirit of God beareth witnes of our adoption and salvation , by applying to the heart the promises of God touching the remission of sinnes , and life everlasting by Christ , which are generally propounded by the publike ministery of the word : Rom. 8.15 . Gala . 4.6 . now Gods spirit never departeth from our spirits , but dwelleth & abideth in vs , speaketh in vs , sheweth for●h his power and prayeth in vs : What can be more certaine then the testimony and witnes of the spirit , which searcheth all things even the deepe things of God : 1 Cor 2.10 . therefore he can most truely make knowne , and reveale vnto Gods children the certaintie of their salvation : hee will not deceiue for he is the spirit of truth , Iohn 16.13 . which cannot deceiue , nor be deceived : concerning this testimony of Gods spirit it is a mystery to flesh and bloud , it is a thing more easie to feele then to expresse , two speciall markes there be which will discerne betweene the delution of Satan , who will counterfeit assurance in the hearts of hypocrites , and the true assurance of Gods spirit in the hearts of Gods children : First that assurance which is felt in the heart of Gods children , when their heart is humbled and cast downe , and is like the Kingly Prophet Davids heart , who sayth , my heart is like waxe , it is moulten in the midst of my bowels : Psal . 12.14 . that assurance no doubt is wrought by the spirit of God : take me a man confounded in himselfe , with the perplexities of his conscience for sinne , as was David , who roared for the griefe of his heart , and as Ezechiah , who mourned as a Doue for his sinne : Psal . 38 8. Isa . 3.8.14 . Iob 6.4 . and having as Iob sayth , the terrors of God fighting against him ; I say a man comforted in this misery , by assuring him of his salvation , must needes be done by the spirit of God ; the Devill when men are a sleepe in their sinne , he vseth to bring them to a dead security , & a false assurance of their salvation : but when they come to be wounded in conscience for their sinnes , then hee taketh another course , fearing they should flie to Christ to be healed , and therefore he laboureth to bring them to despaire , or to desperate ends , as we may see in Caine and Iudas , and many fearefull examples in these our dayes , but God who is rich in mercy , doth comfort the hearts of his chosen ones , and giues them by his sp●rit , a blessed assurance of his favour and loue in Iesus Christ for their salvation , for God knoweth that the spirit of a man can helpe his infirmitie of his body , but a wounded spirit who can beare ; that is , no man can beare it , therefore hee strengtheneth them by his power . And thus of the assurance of saluation which Gods children haue by the witnesse of the spirit of God , when they are humbled in conscience for sinne .

Philip .

What is the second marke whereby we may know that this assurance is wrought by the holy Ghost , and not by the delusion of Satan .

George ,

I answere , that this assurance wrought by Gods spirit is done by the vse of the meanes , which is the Preaching of the Word of God , by attentiue hearing Sermons , and the Scriptures read : Meditation of Gods Word , prayer , and the right vse of the Sacraments . These are the ordinary meanes which God vseth to bring men to an estate of salvation , and God doth not ordinarily without these meanes giue salvation to any , for the spirit of God doth affect his owne course and ordinance in conuerting soules vnto himselfe : and the deuill doth labour to preuent these straight wayes of the Lord by drawing to coldnesse and negligent vse of these meanes . Is a man therefore diligent in giuing attendance at the posts of the Lawes dore ? Pro . 8.33 . Iere . 15.16 . Psal . 119.103 Psal . 62 8. Is Gods word the joy and rejoycing of his heart ? Are the promises of God sweete vnto his mouth ? Is it a delight to him to communicate with the Saints at the Lords Table ? Is it a mans loue to powre out his heart by prayer before God : then that assurance which is wrought by these meanes , is vndoubtedly the assurance of Gods spirit .

Philip ,

And what is meant by our spirit ? and how doth our spirit assure vs of our salvation ?

Geor :

I answere , by our spirit is not meant any thing which naturally is our own , either of soule or body , concerning the substance of thē which we had by creation , or the created faculties of either of them : but by our spirit is ment a supernatural qualitie of holinesse , and it i● that new spirit which God promised by Ezechiell to put into the bowels : Ezech . 11 . 1● Psal . 51.10 . and it is that right spirit which David desired God to renew in him : indeede it is our conscience which is sanctified by the bloud & spirit of Christ : for conscience is a throughout part of the vnderstanding , and being sanctified it beareth testimony with Gods spirit of the adoption of Gods children . And thus far what is meant by our spirit .

Philip ,

Well , proceede , and how doth our spirit assure vs of our salvation ?

George ,

I answer , that the euidences of our assurance that arise out of a sanctified spirit , are many , I will draw them to two heads . First , within vs that are Gods children there are euident tokens , secondly , outward manifest fruits : our inward tokens doe either respect either our sinnes , or Gods goodnesse and mercy . In the former , we consider either sinnes past , or sinnes present , or sinnes to come : and for sinnes past , Gods child is an vnfained mourner , because they are an offence against the Maiestie of God ; 2 Cor . 2.11 . and this is called godly sorrow : and for sinnes present , Gods child is an earnest fighter , for there is a continuall Combate betweene the flesh and the spirit : Gal. 5.17 . and touching sinnes to come , Gods childe is a continuall Watcher of his heart to keepe it with all diligence : Pro . 4.23 . and Gods childe striues to keepe himselfe vnspotted of the world ; and Gods childe doth flie the corruption which is in the world through lust : Iames 1.27 . 2 Pet . 1.4 . now for those mercies & goodnesse of God which concernes their saluation , O how highly doe they prise them , basely esteeming all things in respect of them ; Phil . 3.8 . I count all things dung that I may winne Christ , saith Paul : and the soules of the Saints with David long and faint for these mercies of God for their salvation : Psal . 63.3 . yea their soules thirst for God : how is it possible but a man must needs conclude an assurance to himselfe of his blessed estate of grace , having in him such blessed effects of grace . I could alledge other inward tokens which as seales doe assure a Saint of God of his saluation . Doth any loue God , and loue to glorifie God ? then know that that loue is an euident token that Gods loue is in him ; 1 Ioh . 4.10 . for saith Saint Iohn , Loue commeth of God : and yet further saith , herein is that loue , not that we loved God , but that he loued vs first . 1 Ioh . 4.8 . Now Gods loue is eternall , for God is loue , and loue is essentiall in him , and the influence of his loue being shed abroad in our hearts , Ioh . 1.4.8 . Rom. 5.5 . doth reflect backe againe to loue God and all his holy wayes , and his children for his sake . The like may be said of knowledge : for our Sauiour saith ; I know my sheepe , Ioh . 10.14 . and I am knowne of mine . Where you see that Christ doth take knowledge of his sheepe , first before they doe know him to be their Pastor . Away from me yee workers of iniquitie , saith the holy Ghost , I know you not , that is , I know you not to be my children ; but of the godly he saith , I know them and they acknowledge mee : I might alledge other inward signes of Gods fauour for the assurance of blisse and happinesse for euer , but these shall suffice . Now for outward fruits , Luke . 3.8 . they are such as Iohn Baptist spake of , fruits worthy amendment of life . We haue two speciall places which make mention of them , first in Paul to the Galatians , the fruit of the spirit is loue , ioy , peace , long suffering , Gal. 5.22 . gentlenesse , goodnesse , faith , meeknesse , temperance . The other place is in the second Epistle of Peter in these words ; Ioyne vertue with your faith , and with vertue knowledge , 2 Pet . 1.5.6.10 . and with knowledge temperance , and with temperance patience , and with patience godlinesse , and with godlinesse brotherly kindnesse , and with brotherly kindnesse loue . If we be diligent in these things to make our calling and election sure , we shall neuer fall . To conclude , Hath God put a louing childlike feare into thy heart ? he couenanted by promise by the Ministery of the Prophet Ieremy , that he will put his feare into the hearts of his children , that they shall neuer depart from him : Hath he shed his loue in the heart of any ? let him know for his comfort , that whom he loues he loues to the end . Hath the father drawne any to Christ to be saued by his mediation ? let him cheare vp himselfe in this , that Christ hath promised that whom the Father hath giuen him , he will cast none away ; and also that Christ hath prayed for him , that his faith faile not . To conclude , hath any receiued the secret gifts of Gods loue and fauour ? let him solace and comfort himselfe in this , that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance . And thus I haue shewed and proued vnto you , that the children of God may be , yea , and in Gods good time at their effectuall calling , are vsually in some measure assured of their saluation : and as they doe grow in grace , so their assurance groweth more strong .

Philip ,

And haue you ended your discourse of the invisible Church of Christ ?

George ,

Yes surely , I haue done my best endeuours to make it knowne vnto you , with the blessed estate thereof , and now for this time we haue ended our conference , God blesse it vnto vs , as also our Iourney in walking , for we are now come to London .

Philip ,

Well , I haue given you the hearing , but come Senior George , at the next Taverne for our refreshing wee will drinke a pint of white wine , with a Nutmeg and Sugar .

George ,

I am well contented , and then we will appoint the time and place of our next meeting , to conferre vpon the visible Church .

Philip ,

I am very loth to haue any further conference with heretickes .

George ,

Be not afraid man , I hope it will turne to the best for the glorifying of God , and both our edifications .

Philip ,

Come , here is a Taverne , let vs goe in Drawer shew vs a roome , and bring vs a pint of white wine , sugar , and nutmeg , and a cake .

Drawer ,

You shall Sir , Gentlemen here is your wine .

Philip ,

Fill out Drawer , here Senior George , I drinke to you .

George ,

I thanke you Senior Philip , and I pray God to blesse vnto vs these his creatures , that his staffe and strength in them may nourish our weake bodies for his seruice .

Philip ,

Come on Senior George , I will agree to meete with you , but when shall be the time , and where shall be the place .

George ,

If it please God at Goodmans-fields neere Tower-hill vpon thursday next .

Philip ,

I will meete you at the time and place , come Drawer take money for your Wine .

George ,

I pray Senior Philip , let me in curtesie pay this small shot , vpon our first acquaintance .

Philip ,

No , I called for it , and I will pay .

George ,

If you will haue it so , I thanke you ; at our next meeting , I will requite it .

Philip ,

Well Senior George , farewell till thursday .

George ,

I desire that we both may prepare our selues , both by prayer vnto God , and holy meditation , that our Conference may be to the praise of God , and our owne edification ; and so for this time I take my leaue .

Philip ,

Well met Seigneour George , I am come according to my promise , about our conference about the visible Church .

George ,

It is well done , I haue heard that it is the opinion of some of your Religion , that it is no sinne to breake promise with heretikes , which you account vs to be : and I know the practice of some hath beene such with my selfe .

Philip ,

Come Senior George , begin what is the visible Church , and how doe you define it .

George ,

I pray God we may begin our conference in his feare , and continue and end it to his glory and praise : and thus I define the visible Church , it is but one , and is a sencible knowne Company that outwardly make profession , and embrace the true and vncorrupt doctrine , which supernaturally appertaines to the very essence of Christianity , and is necessarily required in every Christian ; now this Church I say , is but one , and yet devided into two parts , the first part before the second part , since the comming of Christ , that part which since the coming of Christ , partly hath , and partly shall hereafter , embrace the Christian Religion , wee terme as by a more proper name , the Church of Christ : these two parts of the Church , both of the Iewes and Gentiles , the holy Ghost hath as it were incorporated them into one body , the words are these : that he might reconcile both vnto God in one bodie : Ephe . 2.15.16 Ephe . 2.6 . as hee sayth in the 2. Chapter , that the Gentiles should be inheritours also , and of the same body .

Philip ,

But wherein standeth the very essence of a visible Church , and of a visible Christian .

George ,

It standeth in this , in profession of one Lord , one Faith , and one Baptisme : therefore the Apostle Peter saith , Ephe . 4.5 . Let all the house of Israell know for a certainetie , that God hath made him both Lord and Christ ; even Iesus whom ye haue crucified : Acts 2.3.6 . Ioh . 13.13 . therefore Christians they are not which call not him their Master and Lord : and from hence it came that first at Antioch , and afterwards , throughout the whole world , all that are of the visible Church were called Christians ; but our naming of Iesus Christ the Lord , is not enough to proue vs Christians , vnlesse we imbrace faith in him , the spirit of God saith to the Angel of Pergamus , Thou keepest my name and hast not denied my faith : ●ev . 2.23 . Though we know and alow of the Christian faith , yet in this we be but entering : entered we are not into the visible Church of Christ before our admittance by the doore of Baptisme , wherefore vpon the confession of Christian faith , the Eunuch was baptized by Philip , ●cts 8.38 . ●cts 22.16 . ●cts 2.41 . Paul by Ananias , and by Peter an huge multitude , which being baptized were received into the number of soules added to the visible Church .

Philip ,

But what be the markes of the visible Church of God whereby a man may know it to be a Church of God .

George ,

The face of the Church visible to our eyes , is seene in the publike preaching of the word and the Sacraments administred according to Christs institution , for where Gods word is preached and heard , and the sacraments administred , there we must be assured is the visible Church , for these are sure infaileable markes of the visible Church , for where these are , there is Christ publikely proclaimed to be Lord of our salvation : for by these the Church is gathered in the name of Christ , Math . 18.20 . where Christ hath promised his presence .

Philip ,

And wherein consists the communion service , or ministery of the visible Christian Church .

George ,

That wherein they haue communion is the publike exercise of such duties as these mentioned in the Apostles actes , which is instruction , breaking of bread , and prayers : but giue me leaue a little more to speake of the ministery of the visible Church , as also of the invisible ; God for the sinne of our first parents might haue glorified himselfe in his iust iudgement by condemning all mankind , but for the glorifying himselfe in his rich mercies , he decreed to passe by his severitie of iustice , by preordaining some of the corrupt rascall rout of mankind to eternall salvation , and for the effecting of this , he hath ordained the ministery of the visible Church , so that there is none that doe attaine to be members of the blessed spirituall , and mysticall body of Christ Iesus before spoken of , but by the ministery of the visible Church : he could haue saved his Elect by his immediate power , or by the ministery of Angels ; but God in mercy condiscending to our weakenes , doth offer vnto vs his heavenly favours in earthen vessels , we come not vnto an estate of grace in the mysticall body of Christ , but by faith , we come not to faith , but by the Gospel preached , as Paul sayth , that faith is by hearing : now Paul writeth , that Christ , that he might fulfill all things gaue some Apostles , some Prophets , some Evangelists , and some Pastors , Rom. 10.17 . & teachers for the repayring of the Saints , for the worke of the ministery , and for the edifying of the body of Christ , till we all meete together in the vnitie of faith , and that acknowledging of the sonne of God , vnto a perfect man , and to the measure of the age of the fulnes of Christ . Ephe . 4 . 1● . God was able to make them that be his , perfect in a moment : yet will not haue them grow in strength of faith , and manly age ordinarily ; but by the bringing vp of the visible Church we see the meane expressed , that vnto Pastors is inioyned the preaching of the heavenly truth : wee see also how all ( none excepted ) are brought vnto this one rule , that they should with mild spirits , and willing to learne , yeelde themselues to the teachers to that vse . Whereupon followeth that they are worthy to perish with famine and pining hunger , that refuse the spirituall meate of their soules reached to them of God , by the hand of his Church . God doth breath faith into his children , but it is by the Instrument of the Gospell and word of God : it is cleare that none shall haue fellowship with God and Christ that refuse to haue communion with the Church visible : to this end Saint Iohn sayth , that I say , 1 Iohn 1.3 . which wee haue seene , and heard , declare we vnto you , to what end did the Apostles declare that which they had heard and seene , the end is , that you may also haue fellowship with vs , and is that all ? no : and that our fellowship may be with the Father , and with his sonne Iesus Christ . So that we must first haue fellowship and communion with the Church and Pastors thereof in their ministration , and then we shall haue a blessed communion with the Father and the Sonne .

Philip ,

All this I grant to be true , but that your markes of the Church be somewhat crased , for the Catholike Church doth shew other marks whereby the visible Church may be knowne , which we will hereafter discourse of ; but for this time , I pray proceede in your discourse of the visible Church of Christ .

George ,

The markes I haue declared are infallible and certaine : and what your markes are , we shall see and consider anone ; and now I will proceede as you desire . Those I say againe who are marked with this one marke of the outward profession of one Lord , one faith , and one Baptisme , the visible Church doth acknowledge them for her children : those shee taketh for aliants and strangers in whom these things are not found , and therefore Turkes , Iewes , and Infidells , are not of the Church . Others we may not deny to be of the visible Church as long as these be not wanting in them , if they haue these , they are Christians by externall profession , though they be vild by conuersation . Of the invisible Church , these vile ones , are not , because that body consists of none but true Israelites , true Saints and sonnes of Abraham , which are indeed the children of God , and yet of the visible Church ; these may be and often are in respect of the maine parts of their outward profession , who in regard of the inward disposition of their mind , yea of externall conuersation , yea euen of some parts of their very profession , are hatefull to God , and to the sounder parts of the visible Church . Our Sauiour therefore compareth the kingdome of heauen to a Net , whereinto all that commeth neither is , nor seemeth good fish ; Math . 13.47 . and his Church he compareth to a field , where tares manifestly knowne and seene by all men do grow intermingled with good corne , and so shall it continue till the consummation of the world . It is cleare in Diuinitie that God hath had alwayes a Church visible in the world , euen when the most parts thereof were grieuously infected with heresie .

Philip ,

Yea , can the visible Church erre , wee are taught that it cannot , therefore when you see conuenient time declare that further vnto mee ?

George ,

I will God-willing , when time serueth , but now I haue other things to relate vnto you of the visible Church . The visible Church , as I haue said , is but one , yet besides the two parts before declared , viz. the one before , the other since Christs comming ; that part since Christs comming , which we call the Church of Christ is also diuided into parts for your better vnderstanding : I will draw a comparison , the Sea you know is but one , yet hath diuers parts by name , as that part vpon your Coasts wee call the Spanish Sea , and of England the English Sea , vpon France the French Sea , and Ireland the Irish Sea , and so of others ; euen so the Church , although I say it is but one , yet hath it diuers parts , as for example , the Church of Rome , the Church of Greece , the Church of England , the church of Germany , the Church of Scotland , and so of others , and all these make but one Church ; as all those parts of the Sea make but one Sea .

Philip ,

And what is it that vniteth all these parts into one body , wherby these parts make but one visible Church of Christ ?

George ,

It is the joynt profession and publike Preaching of the doctrine of one Lord , one faith , and one Baptisme ; for this one Lord is the onely head of the visible Church , in whom they acknowledge themselues to be vnited , and in him make but one body : and they all professe and Preach faith in him , and all professe to enter into the visible Church by the doore of Baptisme .

Philip ,

How doth it appeare , that the Church being one body is deuided into parts ?

George ,

By the Scriptures ; For Paul writeth to the Church of Rome one of his Epistles , two other Epistles to the Church of Corinth , one to the Church of Gallatia , and another to the Church of Ephesus , and so to the Thessalonians , Philippians , the Colossians , and to the Churches in priuate houses , and in the Revelation , the Angell to the seauen Churches of Asia . Thus it appeareth , that the visible Church being one is diuided into parts , and so it will be to the end of the world .

Philip ,

If the Church be divided into parts , then it matters not what part a man ioyne with in the service of God ?

George ,

Oh yes Seniour Philip , there is great care to be had with what Church we doe joyne in the worship of God , and what pastors we submit our selues vnto , to be the guide of our soules vnto eternall life ; for the visible Church though it be but one , and divided into parts , yet is not every part equally sincere ; for some is more pure then others , some more corrupt then others , some are so corrupted with devilish doctrine of humane inventions and traditions , that a man can scarce discerne in it the face of a visible Church of Christ .

Philip ,

How shall a private man , as I am know , which is the pur●st Church to ioyne with in the Worship of God ?

George ,

By the puritie of doctrine professed and publikely Preached .

Philip ,

Can such simple men as you and I am iudge of the Church , and of the doctrine thereof ?

George ,

The persons of their Teachers they may not judge , but they may examine their doctrine , as the Bereans did Paules Preaching , by searching the Scriptures whether those things were so which he Preached ; and if they haue the spirit of discerning those things that differ , as the sheepe of Christ haue , for our Saviour saith , My sheepe heare my voice , and a stranger they will not heare . And S. Iohn saith by Commandement , beleeue not every spirit , but try the spirits whether they are of God . Paul saith , that the spirituall man discerneth all things , that is , all doctrines of faith , so far forth as he is spirituall . And our Saviour saith , You shall know them by their fruits , that is , by their doctrine and life . Thus you see how a childe of God may discerne betweene the corrupt and vncorrupt Church .

Philip ,

By this triall , which is in your iudgement the purest Church , and which is the most corrupt ?

George ,

Surely I will speake my conscience in the sight of God , though comparisons are disliked of many , yet I thinke I may justly say , that our Church the Church of England is of the former sort : for the puritie of doctrine concerning supernaturall truth reueiled by the Gospell of Christ Iesus , is as purely taught in her as in any Church in the world : therefore I beare so much zeale to the glory of God , and so much charitie and loue to my Countreymen and kindred in the flesh , yea to all the Countreys of our King , vnited vnder his government , yea to all strangers that are in them , that I could willingly suffer some great lose to my selfe , that they might be wonne to the loue of that truth which is professed & publikely Preached by the Pastors of our Church : I meane all such as out of ignorance haue alienated their minds from their owne spirituall mother , and haue submitted themselues to those Churches who are much more corrupt and impure .

Philip ,

And which in your iudgement is the most corrupt and impure visible Church ?

George ,

Surely I will speake my conscience in the sight of God , as I haue of the pure Church : I take the Church of Rome in these times to be the most corrupt Church that I can reade of , and therefore not safe for a Christian to submit to and joyne with in the service of God ; for in it are the people of God taught to serue God by the precepts and traditions of men , in such sort , that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ , cannot shine vnto men as it should for their conversion and salvation .

Philip ,

I perceiue you are a grosse hereticke by thus speaking , for the Church of Rome is the mother Church , and out of her there is no salvation , and shee is a most pure Church , as may appeare by those markes whereby shee is intituled .

George ,

I am still contented you shall call me hereticke : but I say againe that after the way which you call heresie will I serue the living God ; and for your Church being the mother Church , I cannot so affirme , because if she be a Church , yet shee is but a part of the visible Church , which is the mother of vs all ; and as for those children of God which are vnder the government of the Church of Rome , I from my heart roote doe pittie them , for shee behaveth her selfe to them more like a curst stepdame , then like a loving naturall mother : their spirituall dyet for their soules is a wicked mixture of corrupt humane inventions , with the milke of sincere truth , and if they will not eate this corrupt and vnwholesome dyet , then shee beateth them with faggot and fire ; and as for those markes wherewith you would proue the puritie of your Church , I hope you will let me heare them anon .

Philip ,

Well Seniour George , be reconciled to our Church , and doe not persist still in your errours .

George ,

I am a member of the visible catholike Church , and that pure part thereof , where God hath placed me I will continue still ; for here is the word of eternall life , whether should I then goe ?

Philip ,

What is the reason you will not be reconciled to our Church , whereas yet you confesse it to be in some sort a Church ?

George ,

I haue yeelded vnto you one reason already , viz. because of the corrupt doctrine therein taught ; another reason is , because we are commanded the contrary by the Word of God .

Philip ,

I pray let me heare those Scriptures , by which you are detained from vniting your selfe to our Church .

George ,

True it is , I will not deny vtterly , that vnder the Papacy , there may be some Church of God , in regard of those maine parts of Christian Religion which they constantly still professe , therefore I say of them , as Paul said of Israel , that in one respect they are enemies , but in another , beloved of God ; so I say of them , that in respect of those excellent parts of Christian Religion which they professe to beleeue , as these ; that there is one God in Trinitie , that the second person in Trinitie assumed our nature , that this second person vnited to our nature is the Messias promised of God , and Prophesied of by Moses and the Prophets ; and they beleeue his passion and death , his resurrection and ascension , with other more principles which they hold : but many of them are fouly corrupted by their owne superstitions and traditions , yet for those maine parts of Christian Religion , I suppose that they may be accounted visible Churches in some sort , but in regard of their retaining and maintaining of many other grosse corruptions , and vild superstitions : they are not such Churches as a man with safetie may joyne himselfe vnto , especially having discovered the foule abuse of them . What saith God by the Prophet Esay ? Oh my people , Psa . 3. ●2 . they that lead thee , cause thee to erre , and destroy the way of thy paths : nay what saith he further both of the temporall and ecclesiasticall Rulers ; the leaders of the people cause them to erre , and they that are led by them are devoured . Isa . 9.16 . Had wee not neede therefore to take heede what Pastors we follow , seeing that if they lead vs into errour , wee shall be devoured : Iuda of old was much corrupted with Idolatry , but afterward became more pure , and at that time also was Israell exceedingly corrupted , and therefore God commanded by the Ministery of the Prophet Hosea in these words ; Though Israell play the harlot , Hos . 4 . 15.1● . yet let not Iuda sinne . And againe he saith , Ephraim is ioyned to Idols , let him alone ; if Rome will not purge her selfe , must not wee in the Church of England ? What saith Paul , 1 Cor . 10.17 . What agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols : Wherefore come out from amongst them , and separate your selues , and touch no vncleane thing , saith the Lord , and I will receiue you . See the practises of old , when the Worship of God was corrupted in substance ; 2 Cro . 11.14 . for when Ieroboam had set vp Idols in Israell , then the Priests and Levites came to Iuda and Ierusalem to serue the Lord . Againe , when the doctrine of Religion is corrupted in the maine substance of it , as S. Paul saith ; If any man teach otherwise , and consenteth not vnto the holesome words of our Lord Iesus Christ , 1 Tim . 6.3 . ● . and to the doctrine which is according to godlinesse , he is puffed vp and knoweth nothing . And in the fift verse , he saith , from such separate your selues . And Paul did practise this separation with some disciples , Acts 19.9 . & 28. & 28. both at Ephesus and at Rome also , therefore fearefull is and will be the estate of those men who are bred in the bosom of a puer visible Church , and yet reiect the doctrine purely offered vnto them from God by the hand of the Church : they liue in a Church & amiddest meanes whereby they might come to everlasting blisse and life for ever , which yet because they refuse , the estate of them will be far worse then Turkes and Infidells , who injoy not the like meanes , therefore I doe wish you to looke better about you for feare of the danger that will follow .

Philip ,

Well Seniour George , I haue heard you all this time , but I must tell you that you deserue to be soundly punished for that you haue said .

George ,

You know Seniour Philip , that it is the manner of galled horses to kick at him that labours to cure them , but I would not haue it be so in you : but wherein haue I deserved to be punished .

Philip ,

Because you haue said that the Church of Rome is the most corrupted and defiled Church in the world , that you can reade of , by reason of their maintenance of Idolatry many wayes , and their many superstitions and humane traditions .

George ,

If I cannot proue that I haue said , then I am worthy to be punished , but if I can proue that I haue said , then I deserue not to be punished , but my proofes I will defer till time serue in our further conference ; but in the meane time I desire you Seniour Philip charitably to conceiue of me . I doe not speake that that I haue said out of hate to the Church of Rome , saue as it is the Church of Antichrist : as appeares by the grosse corruptions of doctrine therein taught , and that I speake to you Seniour Philip , I speake in that common charitie which ought to be in every Christian , for it is the dutie of private men to exhort one another , and to edifie one another in the most holy faith : and this we are commanded in holy Writ . I dare not to take vpon me the office of a publike Teacher , for none ought to take vpon him that office , but he that is called thereunto as was Aaron : and the Apostle Paul saith , None can Preach except he be sent : and I know in part what destruction hath befalne men , for arrogating and intruding themselues into that sacred office without calling : and if this Conference betweene you and I were written , and should come abroad into private hands of men , yet were it not a publike ministeriall teaching , but in manner of a Christian conference betweene them and me , as it is now betweene you and me by our mutuall discourse : the Scriptures doth record divers worthy acts and sayings of private men ; their worthy sayings , and holy speeches , are as a conference with others , continuing to the end of the world , & their godly actions are for Christian mens imitations so long as the world indureth , and therefore if it should come abroad , it were no intrusion vpon any ministeriall function , but a Christian instruction for holy edification .

Philip ,

Why man the Church of Rome can prooue it selfe to be a most pure Church by the Scriptures .

George ,

I know they doe the best they can to proue their false Worship by the Scriptures , but they doe but labour to build vp Babell with the stones of Sion : but the stones of Sion will not be squared for that wicked building . Satan could alledge Scripture to our Saviour Christ : for the Devill having tempted our Saviour in the Wildernesse , when he could not prevaile , carried him into the holy Citie , Math . ● 6. and set him on a pixacle of the Temple , and said vnto him , if thou be the Sonne of God cast thy selfe downe . Now for the effecting of this temptation , which was to destroy our Saviour , and in him all the elect of God , he alledgeth Scripture : which is the 91. Psalme , the 11. and 12. verses , Psal . 91.11 . the words are these ; He shall giue his Angels charge over thee : but see the deceitfull cunning of the Devill , he left out the latter part of the 11. verse , which is to keepe thee in all thy wayes , and proceeded to the 12. verse , They shall beare thee in their armes , that thou hurt not thy foote against a stone : so that which he thought would hinder him in his purpose he left out : to keepe thee in all thy wayes , thought he if I alledge that , then will Christ goe the right way downe the staires , and not cast himselfe off the pinacle ( as I would haue him ; ) so , the Church of Rome , hath as I haue heard , composed a publike Liturgie or service-Booke , which is commonly called the Masse-booke , and therein is written the ten morrall Commandements , but the second Commandement , which properly forbiddeth Idolatrie , making of Images , or bowing to them by serving God in , at , or before them : this Commandement is left out and two made of the last , to make vp the number . And all this is that the common people should not feare to fall downe to worship either their Images themselues , or God in , at , or before them . For I haue heard some say , that they tell the people that Images are Lay-mens bookes ; also a reverend Divine of ours in his publike Ministery did say , that when their Writers doe write any Commentaries vpon the Scriptures , then in many things they assent vnto our doctrine ; but when they come to oppose our doctrine by way of Controversie , then they are quite contrary to their owne Commentaries : is this faire dealing with holy Scripture ? Againe the Sacrament of the bloud of Christ they will not haue the common people to drinke thereof for their spirituall thirst , though Christ haue commanded , Drinke yee all of this . Thus they deale with the Church of God which consists as well of the Late people , as of the Clergie , and with the holy ordinances of God wherewith hee hath interrested them .

Philip ,

All this you say against the Church of Rome , will but agravate your punishment , if you fall into their hands .

George ,

I know it well , they haue beene a long time the rods of God , by which he hath corrected his children , but this is our comfort , that when he hath done , he will cast the rod into the fire : when they cannot overcome by their deluding arguments and perswasions , the last argument , is hot persecutions , by poyson , stabbing , or faggot and fire ; but this is our chearing vp , and our comfort , that all the afflictions they can lay vpon vs , is not worthy of the ioyes that shall be reveiled , this hath beene the lot of Gods deare inheritance , that not onely the Infidels and Heathen , but their brethren that professe the service of the true God with them , should be their persecutors : Caine sacrificed to the true God , but yet killed his innocent brother Abell : Isaack and Ismael were both brought vp with one religious father in one religion , but Ismaell flouted in disdaine his brother Isaack , and along time the Ismaelites that proceeded from him , persecuted Israels issue : and so likewise Esau and his issue the Edomites , did persecute Iacob and the Israelites : is it not plaine that the Church of Rome , maketh outward profession of the true God and the Messias Christ , and yet for this thousand and more of yeares , hath imbrued her hands in infinite numbers of Christian mens blood ( which cryeth for vengeance as Abels doth : ) therefore farre be it from me or any good Christian to ioyne and submit to that Church , for if I should , I should thereby alow and approue of the wicked deeds done by it , and be accessary to all the innocent blood by her shed .

Philip ,

Why Senior George , they were heretikes , and not worthy to liue .

George ,

Not to dispute now , whither all heretikes ought so to be dealt with : such is indeede the condition of Rome , that vnder the name of heretikes , they kill the deare servants of God : but admit that I should fall into their hands , I thanke God I feare it not , but I feare him that can cast soule and body into hell , and in this feare , I resolve constantly to persist ? I count not this mortall life to be at so deare a rate , that I should betray the truth of God for the preservation of it , for our Saviour sayth , he that will loose his life for my names sake , shall finde it : but if they will needes strike me , let them take the sword of the spirit which is the word of God : but let them rightly vse it like good masters of fence , and then I will be their scholar , and prostrate my soule and body , and all the faculties of them , in obedience vnto it ; but let them not vse it , or abuse it rather , to maintaine their owne false worship and Idolatrie , for then I shall with the same sword defend my selfe against them : and if they will rightly vse this sword , then I will be contented they shall breake my head , for they shall but let out my naturall ignorance and errour : let them thrust it vp to the hilts into my heart , for then they shall but let out the filthy corrupt blood of my originall sinne and corruption , and incline it more vnto Gods testimonies , let them lanch my feete and lame them , yet they shall but rightly order the feete of my affections in the way to heaven , in a word , if they shall rightly vse this sword in wounding me , they shall make me whole , in killing me they shall make me liue for ever : for it is the sword and word of eternall life .

Philip ,

I am now resolved to discourse with you till you are weary ; but one thing I thinke you haue forgot , and that is to proue vnto me by scripture that the Church visible may erre , and being one and devided into parts , is one part more pure , then another part more corrupt , I thinke you can hardly proue it by scripture .

George ,

It may be proved , and I will doe my best endevour to proue it by scripture , and any other question wherein you or any of your religion doe stand in doubt of , which remaine as scruples in their consciences , whereby they are detained from vniting to our Church : I take it to be a truth , that a learned man of ours hath sayd , that they must needes run into oversights , that cannot or doe not rightly distinguish : First betweene the Church visible , and the Church invisible , and next betweene the lesse corrupt or the purer , and the more corrupt or the impurer visible Church , the want of these distinctions causeth much oversight , whatsoever we reade of the endles and eternall loue , and saving mercy which God sheweth to his Church , the onely propper subiect thereof , is the mysticall body and invisible Church : to this Church the Lord Christ hath thus promised ; I giue vnto them eternall life , and they shall never perish , neither shall any plucke them out of my hand : and as those everlasting promises of blessednes and happines belong to the invisible and mysticall Church ; even so when we reade in scripture on the other side , of any duty that the Church is bound vnto ; the Church whom this doth concerne , is a sencible knowne company , which is the visible Church and the parts thereof : vpon the consideration , as maturately as I could of this opinion , that the Church visible cannot erre in doctrine , I did rub vp and search into my memory what I had learned of our Church , which I will declare vnto you : I proue not my selfe to be learned , for if I did , I should but arrogate vnto my selfe that which I am not , seeing I haue not beene brought vp in schooles of learning , but I giue the praise and glory to God the fountaine of all good , from whom every good and perfect gift doth proceede : and next to those worthy instruments of his , whereby I haue beene taught : and now I will adresse my selfe a little to speake to my private Christian brethren , who are a little more learned then the rest , be they either of our Nation or others which proues your Religion : that something they may be edified , if this our conference come to their hands , either by your report or otherwise .

Philip ,

You haue made a flourishing preamble to your learning , I pray let me heare it .

George ,

Surely whatsoever good I haue , or whatsoever good I haue learned , I desire to returne the glory and praise thereof , to that Centor and Fountaine of good and wisedome from whence it flowed vnto me : and I thinke I cannot glorifie God better in common Christian charitie , then to spend my best meditations and endevours to bring into the way of truth those poore seduced soules of your religion , who by reason of their blind ignorance , are led by their seducing guides , rather to the pit of everlasting destruction , then to Iesus Christ the fountaine of their everlasting salvation .

Philip ,

Well proceede what more haue you to say .

George ,

This I say , that I doe marvaile that any truely learned man either in the word or workes of God , will be a Papist and of your religion , for that many partes of their doctrine , are against the doctrine reveiled to the world , by the word and workes of God : the Church is as you know , called a body , and this I would haue you to learne , that all bodies whatsoeuer consist of two parts , which are the matter and forme : Let vs a little consider , first , the great bodie of the earth , and the first creation thereof , it is sayd in the first of Gene . and the first verse , that in the beginning , Gen. 1.1 . God created the heaven and the earth , and the earth was without forme and voide : now it is not sayd that the heaven was without forme and void , for God made that perfect in the first moment of time , which it shall be ever after : now the earth was not perfect at the first moment of time , because it was without forme and voide .

Philip ,

What was it to be without forme and voide ?

George ,

I answere to be without forme , is to want the essentiall constitution of a body , and also to want a reall distinction of a body , the truth is , it was no body really and actually , for all bodies reall , doe bring forth something , and produce something , but the earth which was the first matter of all things , being sometime without forme , did produce & bring forth nothing : therefore really and actually it was no perfect body , the very least body that almost we can see , that is a reall and actuall bodie , whether it be a naturall , a vegetatiue , or sensitiue body , even by the naturall induement , as by a law which God hath put in it , will produce some effect , whereby man for knowledge , or for vse may be bettered somewhat .

Philip ,

But what manner of body or thing , or what manner of being had this first matter of all things , seeing it was of it selfe really and actually nothing ?

George ,

I answere with the learned , it was something potentially , but nothing actually , it was in power to be all things , it selfe being as yet nothing really or distinctly .

Philip ,

Can you tell how long this first matter of all things did remaine without forme and voide ?

George ,

I take it that it did remaine so 12 houres , for darkenes was vpon the deepe , which verse 5. is called night , and this night was the first part of the first 24 houres , and this I say , I thinke may be coniectured by that place ; now I say againe that every creature is that which they are , they are it by their formes : God onely is without matter and forme , and therefore he is merely and only most spirituall , take away the forme of any creature , and you take away their very essence & being , for the forme is it that sustaines them , and makes them operate and worke according to the severall agensies of their nature , for the producing of effects ; the maine end of their operations and effects , Prov. 16.4 . Ephe . 1.6 . is the glory of God , for God made all things for his owne sake : besides there are speciall ends for the good of other of Gods creatures , but their more speciall ends of their operations and effects , are for the good of Gods children , who in Christ haue by Gods mercy the dominion of the creatures restored , which they lost by sinne .

Philip ,

If the forme doth cherish and sustaine the creature , then what did sustaine and cherish the first matter of all things , it being with out all forme ?

George ,

It was preserved at that time by the spirit that moved vpon it , which in stead of a forme , did cherish and sustaine it as a Henne doth her egges .

Philip ,

But are you able to shew how God did put this voyde Chaos the first matter of all things into forme , and how he did make all things out of this first matter being formed ?

George ,

I answere that it is not for the feeble braine of man to search into the secret doings of the most High , for that were grosse curiositie : yet I will shew you , what I haue learned of a learned wri●er of ours , that this first matter being the common subiect of contrary formes , it must needes be before them . Gen. 1.2 . it is said to be without forme , vntill God put into it the 4 formes of the elements . Now this first matter of all things did fill the lower world , and therefore it is probable that the highest part of this first matter did receiue the forme of fire , the second of ayre , the third the forme of water , and the last the forme of earth , Gen. 1.3 . first light , then firmament , vers . 6. afterwards water , vers . 9. and lastly , dry land , the same verse . And thus God by his Word did make the elements out of the first matter .

Philip ,

Can you shew me what difference there is in the formes of the elements ?

George ,

The 4 elements may be divided into 2. parts , the higher , and hotter , but the fire hath the most actiue & working forme , so that it is most hot and light , therefore in the highest roome . The ayre hath warmenesse and is actiue : these two elements make the second and first heaven , and are stiled by the holy Ghost , Light and the firmament .

Philip ,

What is the second part you haue divided the elements into ?

George ,

The second part is the water and earth , which make one round globe in the inferiour world ; these were more colder , and therefore lesse actiue ; the water God made most cold and moist , and the earth God made cold and dry . And thus I haue shewed you that God made the first matter of all things without forme , and then that he did put forme into it , and then by the power of his Word made the elements and their formes , by producing them out of the first matter after he had formed it . These things none can know but by Divinitie ; for no humane arts can teach a man that the first matter of all things was made of nothing , and that the first matter of all things had a beeing before these formes were put into it .

Philip ,

And how were all other creatures made and created ?

George ,

The other creatures are called Elementaries , because they were made of the foure elements . If you aske how they were made , I answere , that God made them by a mixture of the elements , which alters their extremities and bringeth them into a temper , which you may thus conceiue : First water , being of a running nature is stayd by the drinesse of the earth , secondly , the earth being dry in the highest degree , would dry vp and destroy the moysture of the water , if the ayre should not put into succour his next neighbour . Thirdly , the coldnesse of the water and earth would wholy extinguish the heate of the ayre , if the fire should not succour him . All these thus meeting together , doe sleken one anothers forces , by meanes whereof the elementary creatures spring out . Gen. 1. let the earth bring forth . This had beene vnpossible without heate and moysture , and therefore the other elements joyned with the earth in the production . This I say not to binde Gods power to meanes , for God could haue made the first matter to bring forth creatures when it was without forme , as well as when he made it at the first of nothing ,

Philip ,

And what doth all this concerne the visible Church , which is the thing our Conference principally intendeth ?

George ,

This is the drift of that I haue spoken , to bring you the better to know what the Church is , and whereof it doth consist ; for as I haue said and proued , that all naturall bodies consist in the matter and forme : so I say , all Societies and Corporations of men either in the Church or Common-wealth , consist also of matter and forme . If a new Corporation in particular be erected in the Common-wealth by the consent of the King , those that seeke to be incorporated in that Societie , doe propose some lawes and rules to bind them in that association , which being agreed vpon , and their Charter granted , then are they a complete bodie . Now what is the matter , and what is the forme of this body ? The matter is the men that be members of this Corporation , and the forme is the lawes and rules in which they are bound in obedience to that Societie ; now the lawes is the life and being of any Societie , which lawes being wholy abrogated , the Societie is dissolved : but if any part of the lawes be changed by being in part repealed or augmented by further ediction , then the Societie doth not dissolue till they all wholy be abrogated ; even as when any naturall agent doth by corruption begin to loose the forme , it remaines still a body naturall till the forme be wholy evtinguished by corruption , and then it remaines no more a body but returnes to the first principles whereof it was composed .

Philip ,

Well , what is the matter and forme of the Church visible on earth ?

George ,

I answer , that the matter of the Church is the soules and bodies of men , which are reasonable and voluntary agents ; for no creatures can be of this body and societie , but such as haue reason and will : and the forme of it is the lawes and doctrine of salvation reveiled in the Word of God : but this is the difference between the lawes of the Church , and the lawes of civill Societies , that the lawes of the Church , I meane those divine lawes in which they are principally bound in this societie are perfect , and will admit no change , either by vtter abrogation , or by part repealing , or augmentation , or by further edition : but the lawes of men doe admit change , because whatsoever proceedeth from them is imperfect : and I say also lawes ecclesiasticall which are made for seemely order for the administration of those divine lawes , may admit change , because they are made by imperfect men : but for divine lawes , they are immediately reveiled from God , who hath intrusted the Church with them , not to augment them with further addition , or in part to repeale them ( as the Church of Rome like an vnfaithfull steward doth by her wicked traditions ) but to spread them , Preach them , and explicate them , for the gathering the faithfull together vnder the protection of Christ , the onely fountaine of their salvation : these lawes are essentiall to the visible Church , and the very forme and life of the Church ; if they be taken away , the Church looseth the very life of it , & the members thereof returne to their first principles , which is either Turkes , or Iewes , or Heathens , or Infidells , and therefore I marvell the Church of Rome should deny the outward profession of these lawes to be a marke of the visible Church . If a man see a horse in the high way that hath life in him , they will say , he is a horse , but if he haue no life in him , they will say , he was a horse , they will not say , he is a horse : Can they discerne the life of a beast , and are they so ignorantly sottish that they cannot discerne the life of a visible Church , when it hath life in it : these lawes of God are the Word of life , and worke some kind of life in the generall multitude by a temporary faith , by which they joyne in communion in the outward worship of the true service of God , but not to serue him in spirit & truth : but this Word and law of God is a word of eternall life to them that worship God in spirit and in truth ; for the holy Ghost saith ; Many are called , but few are chosen . And our Saviour saith ; Feare not little flocke , it is your Fathers pleasure to giue you a kingdome . And the Prophet Isaiah saith ; that if the children of Israell were in number as the sand of the Sea , yet shall but a remnant be saved . To these chosen ones , this little flocke , to this poore remnant , the Word is a savour of life vnto life . These are they that worship God in spirit and in truth , and in these is there a true saving faith wrought . And this I say againe , that this must needs be the infallible marke by which the visible Church is , and may be knowne . What if there be succession of men to teach ; what if there be antiquitie in succession , and the ceremony of ordination ; what if there be vnitie , and vniversalitie , all these be but accessaries , one thing is necessary , namely , the heavenly word and doctrine : all these accessaries when they are proposed to be markes of a visible Church , they may blind the eyes of ignorance , but men of wisedome will search the life of the Church , whether that be in it or no , and if that be not wanting , then they will admit of those markes which your Church saith are markes , but if the Word , Sacraments , and doctrine , which be infallible markes be wanting , then are your markes snares to catch fooles , or flaps to scare flies . If a man lay in his bed dead , though he had accessaries to his life , about him , as a good fire to warme him , good apparell to cloth him , good meate to feed him , a good house to harbour him , yet all these would not shew him to be a living man , nor would I beleeue him so to be , though all the world should tell me that he is , if I see not his life in him ; no more can I beleeue a Church to be a Church , but by the life of doctrine .

Philip ,

Well Seniour George , you haue discoursed vnto me of Gods mighty creation of all things , and that all bodies consist of their matter and forme , but you haue not spoken of man and his creation .

George ,

I remember wise Salomon in his Proverbes , hath this saying ( namely ) wisedome is good with an inheritance , vpon this saying , I consider how naturally all men doe seeke for worldly inheritances , but how few there be that seeke for wisedome to inioy it , and to imploy it to the glory of God in the releiving their poore needie Christian brethren , true it is , all my life long the Lord hath hitherto in mercy trained mee vp in his schoole of wisedome , which he hath erected in this our Kingdome of Great Brittaine , and I can not but bewaile my great neglect , in that I haue not beene made more wise vnto salvation , but what the Lord hath taught mee in this his schoole of wisedome , I desire to impart it vnto you for your edification : Now first I say that one principall part of this wisedome , is to know rightly a mans owne selfe , which if he rightly know , he shall the better learne to know God his Creator , and Christ his Redeemer , whom rightly to know is eternall life .

Philip ,

I thinke you say true , well now you haue done with your preamble , I pray you proceede how did God make man .

George ,

I will if God please begin with mans Creation , then next with his corruption , wherein I will shew also the corruption of all creatures , as a consequence of his fall , and so intreat of the corruption and errour of the visible Chuch , and therein I will shew that one Church is more corrupt then an other in the parts thereof , and lastly , I will shew the destruction of all , as consequent of corruption .

Philip ,

Come begin your speech of the Creation of man .

George ,

Our mighty GOD after he had created the heaven and all the Angels , as also the earth and all the creatures , then he procceded to make man ; whom he made Lord of all the workes of his hands in this lower world .

Philip ,

But I pray you let me aske you a question before you proceede any further , what is the essence of man , and what is his matter and forme , for you sayd that all bodies consist of matter and forme ?

George ,

I did so , and it is most true that I sayd , and therefore I answere you , that the matter is the body which is composed of the elements , yet the forme of the elements , is not the forme of man ( as they are of other elementary creatures ) but the soule is the forme of man , as the forme of the elements is in other creatures .

Philip ,

Goe on I am satisfied .

George ,

I say God created man a reasonable creature , and voluntary agent , consisting of a body and a soule , which soule is immortall ; now God by his word commanded the earth and waters to bring forth other creatures , but when he made man ; he sayd , let vs , as if he should haue sayd , man is a more honourable creature , then all the creatures we haue made in all the world , and therefore let vs ; the Father , the Word , and the Spirit , be advised as by counsell , of his creation , man is as it were a little world : for whatsoever is in other creatures in the world , is in man , be it in naturall agents , or vegetatiue , or sensitiue , nay of intelectuall spirits , as Angels , for so is man in respect of his soule .

Philip ,

How did God create man ?

George ,

I answere in his owne Image and likenes , God sayd let vs make man in our Image , and according to our likenes , it is so called , Gen. 1.26 . Colo . 3.10 . because he was so furnished in every point by God , not onely in his frame and perfection of his soule and body : but also , by his actions and governement of the creatures : Gen. 1.26 . Let them rule-over the beasts , and fishe● , and fowles , & so forth . This Image and similitude , was that abilitie to shew forth the wisedome , holines , and righteousnes of God , which did rise from the perfection of his estate , both inward , and in the forme of his body and soule , and outwardly in command over other things , so that there could be no let any where , for the performance of his acts , in all obedience whereunto hee was made .

Philip ,

But wherein doth the Image of God consist ?

George ,

I answere it doth consist in two things , first in conformitie of him to Gods righteousnes and holines , as it appeareth in Paul to the Ephesians : Put on the new man , which after God , Ephe . 4.2.4 . Gen. 1.2 . is created vnto righteousnes and true holines , and secondly , in his rule over the creatures : by his conformitie with God , we are to vnderstand , that whereby he was made fit both in body and soule to glorifie God , in vsing all faculties and members as instruments of true righteousnesse and holinesse . Rom. 12.1 . & 1 Thes . 5.23 . 1 Cor . 6.20 . in all these places holinesse and righteousnes is equally required both of body and soule .

Philip ,

How was mans body made ?

George ,

It was composed and made of the finest and purest dust of the earth , and the rest of the elements , Gen. 2.7 . God prepared it with instruments most fitting for the accomplishment of his dutie , and comely for his place ; this body being made of principles foregoing , was in possibilitie subject to corruption and destruction , and to returne into its former principles . David saith ; Psal . 139.14 . I will prayse thee , for I am fearefully and wonderfully made , in regard of so innumerable and exquisite instruments for vse , Rom. 6.13 . for the members thereof were weapons of righteousnesse ; and for beautie most comely ; for they were naked and not ashamed . Gen. 2 25. And saith David ; Lord thou hast crowned him with worship and glory . Psal . 8.5 .

Philip ,

And how was his soule created ?

George ,

It was created immediately of nothing , and not of principles foregoing , as the body was , and for this cause it never dyeth : the manner was that in creating it should be infused , and in infusing it should be created ; for God did not create our soules in heaven , and so breath them into our bodies , but inwardly in framing our bodies in breathed our soules ; hence it is called the breath of life . And for the excellency thereof God giues man the whole divination of a living soule . Gen. 2.7 .

Philip ,

What are the faculties with which the soule of man was indued when God immediately created and infused it .

George ,

I answere , his soule was indued with most rare and excellent faculties , whereof some worke in and vpon the body by elementary spirits ; and others immediately by their owne forces . Marke the Text , and you shall perceiue this to be true , God said to them bring forth fruit and multiple , and fill the earth , this is to be vnderstood of the inferiour faculties : subdue the earth , and rule over the fish of the Sea , and over the fowle of heaven , and over every beast that moveth vpon the earth , this is to be vnderstood of the superiour faculties of the soule , which are the more excellent : the inferiour faculties may be subdued by elementary force , which if they could not , then the body should never die no more then the soule , but we see by daily experience that they may be subdued , because we see men doe daily die ; but the superiour faculties doth subdue all creatures , and themselues are not subject to be subdued .

Philip ,

No , are not reason and will to be subdued ? how commeth it to passe , that reason is subdued by reason and force of argument ?

George ,

I say that mans reason and will hath no power to command them , but God alone , and if reason be subdued of reason , it is by arguments drawne from the Word of God , so that it is God by his Word that doth subdue reason : they are no better then brute beasts that bury these two noble faculties of the soule , and suffer themselues to be ruled by their inferiour faculties , and those inferiour to be ruled of brutish natures : blind the mind , and turne the will , and then meere sence will rule vs.

Philip ,

How doth the inferiour faculties of the soule worke vpon the body , and is the forme and life of the body ?

George ,

I answere , that the soule doth worke in and vpon the body by meanes of the spirits that are ingendered of the more formall elements , whereof the body was composed ; and these spirits are as it were the middle betwixt the body and the soule , and therefore conjoyne them together . Hence it appeareth that man might die by the extinction of those spirits , and yet Gods blessing and wholesome foode might so cherish and releiue them , that man might haue beene immortall . We see that naturall death is the decay of this bond , & our best health is in the preservation of it . Thus you may perceiue that the elementary spirits are not the life of man , but they are the seate of life , and the instruments of the soule , whereby life is wrought in the body , and if these spirits be decayed by corruption , then the body dieth , and the soule goeth to God that gaue it .

Philip ,

Is there any division or distinction of these spirits which conioyne the soule and the body together ?

George ,

Yes , for they are either naturall , or they are animall .

Philip ,

And what doth the soule worke by the naturall spirits in the body ?

George ,

These naturall spirits serue for generation , and for augmentation , or growth and nutrition .

Philip ,

And what the animall spirits ?

George ,

I answere , they serue for sence , motion , and affection ; it is lamentable to thinke , how man abuseth himselfe in all these since the fall .

Philip ,

I pray you discourse further of these superiour powers , and most excellent faculties of the soule , reason and will and how they doe worke ?

George ,

Adam in the perfection of his nature being made after the likenesse of his Maker , resembleth him also in the manner of his working , to that whatsoever he might haue done , the same he might haue wrought both wittingly and freely ; and this was by those powers of his soule , reason and will , whereby he might be a free beginner , that is , a cause by deliberate counsell of his acts . Adam might eate freely of every tree , yea , of the forbidden tree , if he would die for it : ( which he did to the losse of the salvation of him and his posteritie ) but in Christ , the Lord in mercy hath recovered it againe , so that Adam was made at the first with free-will , for there was nothing either in his soule or body , that might hinder him from the performance of his act .

Philip ,

I pray you also shew me further his dominion and Lordship over the creatures , and wherein this Lordship doth consist ?

George ,

For his Lordship and dominion , read the 8. Psalme , Gen. 1.26 . Psal . 8.6 . verse the 6. Thou hast made him to haue dominion in the workes of thine hands ; thou hast put all things vnder his feete .

Philip ,

And wherein doth this dominion consist ?

George ,

I answere , it doth consist in a most free vse of all things for the glory of God , his owne necessitie , and lawfull delight ; and that , without all let or hinderance of any of his actions ; and therefore if he offended in the intemperate vse of any of the creatures , it was his owne fault ; God said to Adam , Gen. 3.11 . who told thee that thou wast naked , hast thou eaten of the tree whereof I told thee thou shouldst not eate ? Hence God sheweth plainely , he was guiltie of his owne wicked action ; and therefore he sinned most freely . Now first God gaue Adam for himselfe , and the beasts , meate from the plants and hearbes , as likewise the dressing of them . Gen. 1.29.30 . Secondly , the bringing ●he creatures to Adam , to see how he would call them . Thirdly , God placed him in the garden of Eden , as in a stately pallace planted of God at the East side , which he replenished with all manner of plants both for pleasure and necessitie : and thus God did , to the end that man being appointed by God vnder him , as Lord Deputie over all his creatures , he might there keepe his Court , and that he might haue matter of imployment , Gen. 2.15 . God appointed him to keepe and till the ground . I might haue further inlarged my discourse of the Creation , but this shall suffice for avoiding of tediousnesse .

Philip ,

Now God having ended his worke of Creation , by giving the creatures a being , and a law of operation by their matter and forme , doth he so leaue them ?

George ,

No ; He hath not onely created them , but he also preserveth them , and continueth them being in their essences , and forces of operations , both vniversall and singular , and by his providence provideth for them to the least circumstance : Math . 10.29 . Psal . 104.24 . in wisedome hast thou made them all , and therefore by the same Wisedome doth he provide for them , verse 27. they all waite vpon him , and he giveth them foode in due season : all , both creation , preservation , and administration , are ascribed to the wisedome , power , and goodnesse , and mercy of God . In the 104. Psalme , from 2. verse to the 10. of Gods creation , from the 10. to the 27. of Gods administration , and from thence , of his preservation . And thus in briefe of Gods creation and providence .

Philip ,

Now I pray you proceede , and let me according to your promise heare your iudgement and reading of mans fall and corruption .

George ,

This I say first , that though Adam was made in the likenesse and Image of his Maker , which stood in holinesse and righteousnesse , and in the dominion and rule over the creatures , yet this perfection was not immutable , but might be changeable by force of temptation , as the event did declare . Now Adam having free will , lost the puritie of his created nature , himselfe being a cause , by his free receiving the temptation , and harkening therevnto , contrary to the Commandement of God , when he might haue resisted the same : the Commandement was this ; And the Lord God commanded the man , Gen. 2.16.17 . saying , thou shalt eate freely of every tree of the garden : Then followeth the prohibition ; but of the tree of knowledge of good and evill , thou shalt not eate of it : and the curse that should follow his eating for in the day that thou eatest thereof , thou shalt die the death .

Philip ,

How was Adams fall effected ?

George ,

The principall causes , was the Devill , and Adams yeelding to the temptation .

Philip ,

And what were the instrumentall causes ?

George ,

The Serpent and the Woman : the Devill in the Serpent said to the Woman , Gen. 3.1 . Yea hath God indeede said , yee shall not eate of every tree of the garden , &c. but God knoweth that when you shall eate thereof , you shall be as Gods , knowing both good and evill . Hence our first parents judged the Law their hinderance , and to keepe them from an inestimable good , tooke and did eate the forbidden fruit ; the Serpent was an Instrument thus : The Devill abusing the Serpents subtiltie , vsed him as a meanes of seducing the Woman : the Woman was an instrument , as being seduced of the Devill by the Serpent ; The Serpent beguiled Eue through his subtiltie . 2 Cor . 11.3 .

Philip ,

What are the effects of Adams fall ?

George ,

I answere , the effects are three ; 1. blame , 2. guilt , 3. punishment , Rom. 5.12 . By one man sinne entered into the world , and death by sinne , and so death went over all men , forasmuch as all men haue sinned . All men sinned in regard of blame : death entered in regard of guilt : and death went over all as a punishment .

Philip ,

What is meant by blame , by guilt , and by punishment ?

George ,

Blame is Gods just censure of sinne . Gen. 3.14 . Because thou hast done this , thou art accurst . Sinne censured , is blame worthy , and guilt is , whereby they are tyed to vndergoe the punishment . Gen. 2.17 . in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt die the death ; and the punishment is the just anger of God vpon them . Rom. 2.5 . By hardnesse of heart thou heapest vpon thy selfe wrath against the day of wrath , and of the declaration , &c. Verse . 8.9 . Iudgement and wrath , tribulation and anguish , shall be vpon every one that doth evill .

Philip ,

How doth God shew himselfe glorious in Adams apostasie , and in him the fall of all men ?

George ,

It doth appeare vnto vs that he doth glorifie himselfe in 3 attributes , that is to say , his holines , his justice , and his mercy .

Philip ,

Describe to me his holinesse .

George ,

His holinesse is whereby he being pure and free from all sinne , cannot away with any sinne . Psal . 5.4 . Thou art a God that lovest no iniquitie , neither shall any evill dwell with thee .

Philip ,

And what is his Iustice ?

George ,

His justice is , whereby he being most just in himselfe , cannot but execute justice : as in well doing to them that doe well , so in inflicting punishment on them that doe evill . Rom. 2.6.7.8.9.10 . Rom. 2 5.6.7.8.9.10 . Gods just judgement is to reward every man according to his workes ; to them that continue in well-doing , glory , honour , immortalitie , peace , and eternall life : but to the rest , indignation , wrath , tribulation , and anguish . It is called , as it seemes to burne more remisly against sinne , anger : as more sharpely , wrath : and as God doth giue sentence , it is called Iudgement , and executing the same , Revenge : Rom. 2.8 . Anger and wrath , verse the 5. Iust Iudgement : 2 Thess. 1.8 . In flaming fire to render vengeance : God must needs hate sinne , and in his justice punish it , because it doth oppose the justice of God , which is God himselfe ; and we see in nature , how mainly every thing doth fight against that , which doth oppose & indevour to overthrow the being of another ; as fire to oppose water , and water fire .

Philip ,

And what is his mercy ?

George ,

His mercy is whereby he vseth compassion also towards his creatures offending . Gen. 6.3 . Gen. 6.3 . My spirit shall not alwayes striue with man , because he is but flesh . Gen 8.21 . I will henceforth curse the ground no more for mans cause , for the imaginations of his heart , are evill even from his youth : Psal . 78.38.39 . He forgaue their iniquities , called backe his anger , did not stir vp all his wrath , for he remembred they were but flesh , a winde passing and commeth not againe ; first therefore Gods mercie appeares in this , that he did never forsake any man , till he first forsooke God , as appeareth in the examples of Caine , Saul , Achitophel and Iudas : secondly , never any sought for mercy , but found it , were his sinnes never so grievous , and many that sought it not , yet haue found it ; as the woman of Samaria , the widdow of Naim , and the sicke man at the Poole , of Bethesda . Thirdly , God was much more displeased with Caine , for despairing of his mercy , then for murthering his brother ; and with Iudas for hanging himselfe , then for betraying his master , in that they would make the sinnes of mortall men , greater then the infinite mercy of the eternall God , or as if they could be more sinfull then God is mercifull .

Philip ,

Of what kinds are his mercy ?

George ,

There be two kinds of his mercy , the one is his bountifulnes , the other is his gentlenes , Rom. 2.4 . despisest thou the riches of his bountifullnes patience and long suffering .

Philip ,

And what is his gentlenes ?

George ,

His gentlenes , is whereby he in his Iustice remembreth mercy , Psal . 103.8.9 . The Lord is full of compassion and mercy , flow to anger , and of great kindnes , he will not alwayes chide , neither keepe his anger for ever ; this doth appeare in his patience and long suffering . Rom. 2.4 .

Philip ,

What is his patience ?

George ,

His patience is , wherby he most gently suffereth sinners , and deferreth punishment . Psal . 50.21 . these things thou didst , and I held my tongue : that is patiently suffering thy sinnes for a time to goe vnpunished .

Philip ,

What is his long suffering ?

George ,

His long sufferance is , whereby he long expecteth rerepentance , Lament . 3.22 . It is the Lords mercy , that wee are not consumed , because his compassions faile not : Eccle . 8.11 . Because sentence is not executed speedi●y : therefore men are fully set to doe evill : when on the contrary , they ought to be moved to forsake their sinnes , Rom. 2.4 .

Philip ,

And what is his bountifulnes ?

George ,

His bountifulnes is , whereby he being rich in goodnes , poureth forth his good gifts vpon his sinfull creatures notwithstanding their sinnes , Mat . 5.45 . Your heauenly Father maketh his Sunne to arise on the evill , and on the good : and sendeth raine on the iust , and vniust . Thus farre I haue shewed you , that the very fall of Adam . God ordered it to his owne glory : first of his holines , which being most absolutely pure , and without the least staine of sinne , being opposite to his holines , could not but perfectly hate sinne secondly , his iustice , which must needes punish sinne : thirdly , his mercy , whereby he vseth compassion also towards his creatures offending .

Philip ,

Now I pray you shew me vpon whom the punishment was inflicted ?

George ,

The persons vpon whom the punishment was inflicted , was first the Devill , next the Serpent , whose subtiltie he vsed for the deceiving the woman , and then the woman , whom being deceived , Gen. 3.14.15 . he vsed as an instrument to deceiue man .

Philip ,

What was the punishment inflicted vpon the Devill ?

George ,

The punishment inflicted vpon the Devill , was first the crushing of his head : that is the bringing to naught his wicked deuise against man , and Gods counsell : by the seede of the woman , that is , Christ , whose heele he bruised , that is , his humiliation , Gen. 3.14 . Secondly , the hardening of Satan and his associates in their sinnes , that they cannot repent and find mercy , Gen. 3.15 . I will put enmitie , betweene thy seede and the womans : It is well knowne that hostility and enmitie doe ever increase hatred , and hatred of God impenitency , Psalme 50.17 . Wicked and impenitent sinners hate to be reformed : The third punishment , is their banishment from heaven , into the elements ; and reservation of them to Iudgement and hell fire , 2. Pet . 2.4 . God spared not the Angels that sinned , but cast them downe into hell , and delivered them into chaines of darkenes , to be kept vnto damnation , Iude verse 5. They are reserved in everlasting chaines vnder darkenes , vnto the iudgement of the great day .

Philip ,

And what was the punishment vpon the Instruments ?

George ,

I answere first vpon the Serpent , a curse aboue all the beasts of the field , 2. Enmitie betwixt him and the woman , 3. A sensible feeling of paine in his going vpon his belly , 4. His eating of dust .

Philip ,

And what was the punishment of the woman ?

George ,

The punishment of the woman was first her inforced subiection to her husband , 2. Gen. 3 . 14.1● Her manifold griefes in conception and going with childe , and her paine in traveiling , these punishments shee had , besides the punishments she hath in common with man .

Philp ,

And what are the punishments of man ?

George ,

I answere that the punishment vpon Adam , and consequently vpon all mankind , is sinne , and death . Rom. 5.12 . as by one man sinne entered into the world , and death by sinne , and so death went over all men , for as much as all men haue sinned .

Philip ,

I pray how can God inflict sinne as a punishment ?

George ,

I answere , that it is as an effect of divine justice by order of consequence , that where such an offence went before , such an evill should follow , to make the partie feele the smart of it : so originall and actuall sinne follow Adams first sinne , as justly inflicted vpon Adam . The order is Gods , which makes it bitter and afflictiue to the soule and conscience . Originall sin followes the first at the very heeles ; and by it we feele wonderfull misery . We see daily , how God punisheth pride by envie : envie is not of God , but the order and afflictiue power is to be given to divine justice . 2 of Sam . 16.10 . Shimei his cursing of David is imputed to Gods Commandement : not as outwardly or inwardly filling his heart with malice , but at this time sending it for Davids further humiliation . Iob . 1.21 . Iob robbed by wicked men , confessed God to be the taker , because he knew , God ordered it for his tryall and patience . The Iewes crucifie Christ , Acts. 2 . 25● and yet that was the determinate Counsell of God ; so then the order disposing , that originall sinne shall follow Adams transgression , and make it bitter vnto vs , is of God : I meane , as far as it is of the nature of punishment , it is of God : but when it comes to be considered simply as a sinne , so it is not of God , but of the creature , as was formerly declared .

Philip ,

What sinnes doth God inflict as punishments ?

George ,

The sinnes inflicted are both originall and actuall ; from this bitter roote of our first transgression , sprang all our misery , Rom 5.19 . One mans disobedience hath made many sinners , both originally and actually .

Philip ,

What is originall sinne ?

George ,

Originall sin is , as the learned say , an exorbitation or misorder of the whole man , both inward in himselfe , and outward in the government of the creatures . Psal . 51.5 . I was borne in iniquitie . Rom. 7 24 a body of death . H●b . 12.1 . a sin that hangeth so fast on , a closing sin , that compasseth vs about . Gen. 5.6 . & 8.21 the frame of mans heart is evill continually .

Philip ,

Hath not man free will ?

George ,

No ; his reason and will are out of order and exorbitant , and ther●fore he hath no freedome of will to any good , that may be pleasing to God , but wholly vnto evill . Ioh . 8.34.35.36 . Servants of sinne must be no freemen , but such are all , vntill Christ restore them . Rom. 3.11 . None that vnderstandeth or seeketh God . Vers . 12. they are all gone out of the way , made altogether vnprofitable ; not one that doth good , no not one : by nature we haue neither mind , will , nor endevour to ought that is good .

Philip ,

What is actuall sinne ?

George ,

Actuall sinne is , the continuall jarring of man vpon outward objects , by reason of his naturall or originall misorder ; as for example , an Instrument out of tune , is dissonant and vnfitting in all harmony . Rom. 3.13.14.15.16.17.18 . throte , tongue , feete , wayes , and all , are without the feare of the Lord . Rom. 1.29.30 . full of vnrighteousnesse , fornication , wickednes , covetousnesse , malitiousnes , with many other actuall sins there recited . Psal . 50.16.17 . crimes against the first Table in a forme of Religion , but a deniall of the power thereof . Psal . 5.18.19.20 . and crimes against the second Table , speeches and actions , as theevery , adul●ery wicked and deceitfull words , &c. And in the mind no good . Psal . 10.4 . he is wickedly secure . Psal . 18.11.13 . proud . Revel . 18.7 . Luk . 18.11.12 . he perceiveth not the things of the word and spirit , for they are foolishnesse vnto him . 1 Cor . 2.14 . wicked thoughts and speeches of them that feare God . Mat . 12.24 . Psal . 74.8 . no care of death , or hell , or judgement . Isa . 18.15 . Luk . 12.19.45 . of the will and affections , proud , wicked , and vile motions , inclinations , and desires . Galat . 5 17. of the members , innumerable wretched actions . And thus I haue described vnto you , the estate and condition of all men by nature , by reason of the first punishment God laid vpon Adam , and his posterity , for his first offence , wherein you may perceiue , that there is little hope , for any man to expect , an impossibilitie of the visible Church not to erre or be corrupted , seeing that all men are thus corrupted and out of order , not onely in their will and affections , but also in their reason it selfe : therefore the Lord in mercy considering all mens naturall exorbitation , hath commended to his Church his sacred Oracles of his Word , as a rule whereto they must take heede , for their inlightening and guiding in the way to heaven .

Philip ,

Declare vnto me the second punishment that God laid vpon Adam and his posteritie for his offence .

George ,

The second punishment is death , which death is a deprivation of life , and thereby man is subiect to much misery . Rom. 6.33 . The wages of sinne is death . Gen. 2.17 . in the day thou eatest thereof , thou shalt die the death .

Philip ,

How many kindes of death be there ?

George ,

There be two kinds of death , the first and the second .

Philip ,

Declare the first death .

George ,

The first death is , subiection to the miseries of this world , the beginning hereof , is the subiection to the miseries that come by the losse of the good things of the body , as of health , whence commeth sicknesse and deformitie : sence of nakednesse , wearinesse , subiection to dangers , also subiection to the miseries , that come by the losse of externall things , as of friends and friendship : honor , rule over the creatures , and of things necessary for the maintenance of life .

Philip ,

When is the first death perfected ?

George ,

I answere , that the perfection and end thereof is , the going out of the spirits , whereby the soule departeth out of the body , and the body afterward is resolved into the elements .

Philip ,

And what is the second death ?

George ,

The second death is the subiection of man to the misery of the world to come , the beginning whereof is in this life as forerunners thereof , the emptines of the good things of the mind , as first ignorance of God ; secondly , terrour of conscience ; thirdly , flying and hiding himselfe from the presence of God , or else a deepe securitie or senslesnes of misery , despaires , and a fearefull expectation of judgements .

Philip ,

And what is the perfection of the second death ?

George ,

The perfection of the second death is an eiection eternally from the face of God , and a casting of the soule immediately after the first death into hell , and a reservation of the body in the graue , as in a dungeon against the day of judgement , when after the resurrection both soule and body shall be cast thither .

Philip ,

And is this an end of your discourse of Adams punishment for his first transgression ?

George ,

I am desirous for your further vnderstanding , to shew you that God so hated the sinne of Adam , that he did not spare to curse the whole course of nature for his sake , even the elements , and also the elementary creatures , which are composed of their mixture : the words are these ; Cursed is the earth for thy sake . Thus God made the creatures which were obedient servants , to be as it were rebellious enemies to Adam and his posteritie .

Philip ,

Why the earth was not guiltie of any sinne , and therefore shew me , how in Iustice God did curse it , seeing it was not guiltie of the crime ?

George ,

I answere , true it is , that no creatures are guiltie of the crime of sinne , but such as haue reason and will , therefore the earth and all the creatures produced out of it as out of their first matter , being made for Gods glory and mans sake , are cursed for mans sinne , that he might be cursed and punished not onely in his owne person and posterity , but as it were also punished in his goods .

Philip ,

But wherein doth this curse of God vpon the creatures consist , seeing all things remaine as they were created at the first ?

George ,

It doth consist in this , that they haue their blessing and goodnesse of creation , weakened and are now subiect to corruption and vanitie ; Rom. 8.19.20 21.22.23 . and therefore are not now so perfect as at their first creation : vnder which corruption and vanitie they doe groane , and the whole course of nature in this world doth long and waite when the sonnes of God shall be reveiled , that they may be delivered from the bondage of their corruption ; vnder which by divine malediction in justice to mans sinne they are in bondage . Nay , I say , that the very creatures haue and doe now groane and repine whensoever they are abused to the satisfying of wicked sinners voluptuous desires : Oh how much more should vild men groane and weepe for their naturall corruption by sinne , seeing they haue brought such a misery vpon all the world of Gods creatures by their sinnes .

Philip ,

But you said even now , that the creatures which were at the first obedient servants to man , are now become rebellious enemies to him . I pray shew me wherein their rebellion doth consist , seeing that they doe to this day yeeld their service , whereby the life of man is continued and preserved ?

George ,

To this your question , I answere , that the elements themselues , of which the bodies of men and all other creatures are composed , doe continually rebell against man , for mans rebellion against God by his sinne . As for example ; Psal . 19.5 . the Sunne who like a mightie man reioyceth to run his race , and nothing is hid from the heate thereof , and God having contracted heate and light into that body , to giue heate and light to the creatures vpon the earth : This Sunne , I say , is by his intemperate heate a continuall vexation to some Inhabitants of the earth , as in India , and other Southern Countries is well knowne to our Countreymen traveiling into those parts : Besides we often who liue in these more temperate Climates , by the violent heate thereof , haue the earth so dried that the grasse is burnt vp , and fruits so pined , even as a poore childe at the withered brests of the mother , and also the element of water which is cold in the highest degree , and of a gathering nature , is a continuall vexation vnto some other parts of the earth by extreame frosts and inundations , as in the more Northern Countries it is well knowne : and also the element of earth , a continuall vexation by barrennesse in some part of it , as we see by experience in our owne Countrey , that some part thereof is by nature more barren then others : We see also by experience , that the element of ayre is in some part of the world so corrupt , that it is also a continuall affliction to the inhabitants : and strangers comming to liue there , out of a more pure and fresh aire , are soone corrupted with agues , rheumes , with fluxes , and many other diseases : now I say againe , that these 4. elements , fire , aire , water , and earth , being the mothers of all elementary creatures , doe nourish all elementary creatures , as mothers doe their children with their milke , and that according to the agensie of their composed natures ; as the fire to yeeld vnto them heate and light ; the water coldnesse and moysture ; the aire warmth and breath ; and the earth drinesse and coldnesse . Now it is cleare by experience , that all elementary creatures , haue their dependance for preservation , vpon Gods providence , who vseth as subordinate and second causes the elements , who by their influence and operations for the continuance , preservation , fertilitie , and augmentation of the elementaries , according to their naturall endowments : yet so , that they the mother elements doe not yeeld to the elementary creatures such a perfect influence for their good , as they did at the first creation . And this commeth as I haue before shewed , by Gods divine malediction in justice for mans sinne .

Philip ,

Well , let me heare of the corruption of other creatures , which you call Elementaries .

George ;

The elementary creatures are of two sorts , that is to say , such as are of an imperfect , and also such as are of a perfect mixture : of the former , we haue little mention in the history of the Creation , but of the latter , in the first of Genesis , where the history of the Creation is set downe , we haue given vs many examples .

Philip ,

What be the creatures of an imperfect mixture ?

George ,

They be smokie and vaporous bodies , which be exhaled by the fire out of the earth and water , and suspended in the ayre , or inclosed in the pores and holes of the earth , Psalme 148.4 . Clouds , verse 8. Fire , and haile , snow and vapours , storme winds &c. which execute his word , they all must praise the Lord , because he created them : these are called Meteours , because they hang aloft in the ayre ; of these , the lesse is to be sayd in divinitie , because they rather come by generation , then by creation ; yet God doth wonderfully expresse his Maiestie in these imperfect bodies ; amongst these Meteors and vaporous bodies , are included lightnings and streames of fire in the elementarie heavens , the operations whereof doe set on fire , Churches , Houses , Trees , and sometimes killeth men and beasts , and in these are included earthquakes , whirlewinds , blasing starrs , and fading comets , by all which , the Lord doth astonish , affright and shew himselfe terrible to the earth , by all which , we may admire the power of his hands , but never come to knowledge of his word .

Philip ,

Well let me heare somewhat , of the corruption of the elementary creatures that followed vpon Gods cursing of the earth , the first matter of them I meane of those of a perfect mixture .

George ,

I answer as before , that for mans sinne , the blessing and goodnes of their creation is weakened , and they are all subiect to corruption and vanitie , now all the creatures in some sort , haue some resemblance with God in their goodnes , as I shewed before . Now the first degree of goodnes is , that generall perfection , which all things doe seeke , by desiring the continuing of their essence , and beeing , now among the creatures ; some are more constant , and some lesse constant , yet all things covet as much as may be , to be like vnto God in being , even those inconstant natures , though they cannot obtaine it personally , doe seeke it an otherway , by of-spring and propagation . There is an other degree of goodnes , which each thing coveteth by affecting resemblance with God in the constancie of their operations , according to the agencie of their kinds , the immutabilitie of God they striue vnto , by working alway , or for the most part , after one manner or tenure : now I say , although Gods creatures are innumerable , yet they may all be brought into these 4. kinds , as for example , some be 1. naturall , some 2. vegetatiue , some 3. sensitiue , and some 4. intellectuall or rationall ; now all these as I haue sayd , consist in their matter and forme , which forme is the law of working , as I take it in all their severall kinds , now I doe not desire to detract the least thing from the God of glory , whom I serue in his sonne Christ , for hee it is , which is the God of nature , and by his providence hath the administration of all things , and nature in her severall kinds , is but his instrument , whether it be for the glory of his mercy or iustice , and therefore , I answere to your question , this their forme wherein is contained their law of working is weakned and diminished , for all creatures obserue a certaine rule or law of working , which law or rule God hath instituted in their severall natures to guide them in their working and this I say againe that their law of working is weakened , whereby they do not so perfectly worke for the preservation of their owne kind in speciall , neither for the good of other creatures , which haue dependances on them for the goodnes of their working .

Philip ,

I pray how are they weakened in the law of their working , for their owne preservation , and the good of others which haue dependance of them , for the goodnes of their working ?

George ,

I answere that their weakenes of working , commeth by their vanitie and corruption , whereunto they are subiect by reason of Gods curse vpon them for mans sinne , and therefore they doe hold alwayes their equall temper and proportion , with which God did at their first creation indue them , and hence it is that they are often in distemper , either by excesse , or by defect ; for excesse and defect are opposite to true proportion . I remember a learned man of ours sayth , that nature is nothing else , but Gods instrument , and he sayth , that Dionisious in the course of nature , perceiving some sudden disturbance , cryed out that God doth either suffer impediment , and is by a greater then himselfe hindered , or if that be impossible , then hath he determined to make a present dissolution of the world , for this corruption of nature , whose law of working beginning to cease , doth presuppose , or is a forerunner of destruction , of which you shall heare hereafter : now I say , what a wonderfull punishment is it to man for his sinne , that the creatures elementary being perfect in their lawes of working in their first creation , are now by Gods iust iudgement corrupted by excesse or defect of working , by which the earth doth bring forth thistles & thornes , cockell and darnell , Gen. 3. ●● tares , and many other hurtfull plants and hearbs , all which I take it the earth did bring them forth before the fall , but then they were not hurtfull annoyances , because man was then in innocency : but after the fall of man , God made them hurtfull annoyances for mans sinne , and caused the earth in an excessiue manner to produce them , whereby they doe sucke the fatnesse of the earth from such other hearbs and plants and fruits as are more necessary for mans nourishment , both of health , and strength , and life . Besides , God for mans sinne doth send Canker wormes , Catterpillers , Grashoppers , and many kindes of Mise , which eate the fruits , and corne , and graine . Besides , He maketh a fruitfull land barren , for the iniquitie of them that dwell therein .

Philip ,

And what say you of elementary creatures sensitiue , and of their corruption ?

George ,

Our great God after he had finished the worke of his creation , appointed vnto man his foode in these words ; Gen. 1.29 . And God said , behold I haue given vnto you every hearbe bearing seed which is vpon all the earth ; and every tree wherein is the fruit of a tree bearing seede , that shall be to you for meate . Now it is the Word of God that sanctifieth , and is the staffe and strength of bread , whereby it nourisheth . How innumerable were the fruits and hearbes which God sanctified for mans vse , as wheate , barley , milke , rice , sugar , honey , rie , with many such ; and the fruits of trees , as apples , peares , dates , figs , and innumerable more ; and of hearbes innumerable more . And the Lord further to expresse his bountie , did giue man libertie to eate of fish , fowle , and flesh , and this further grant was after man had sinned , and after God had destroyed almost the whole world of sinners , saving eight persons . What was there in man to moue him to to this bountie , sure nothing ; for the Lord saith , Gen. 8.21 . the imaginations of mans heart is evill , even from his youth . Nay , the Lord , for all man was so sinfull and wretched a creature , did renew his dominion over the workes of his hands , as is expressed in these words ; Gen 9.2.3 . The feare of you and the dread of you shall be vpon every beast of the earth , and vpon every fowle of the heaven , and vpon all that moveth vpon the earth , and vpon all fishes of the Sea , into your hands are they delivered , every thing that moveth and liveth shall be meate for you , as the hearbe haue I given you all things . Now this dominion and rule of the creatures , which God gaue after the floud of Noah , was not so perfect as their dominion which they had , in the time of innocency : for the curse which was laid vpon them at the first for mans sinne , doth still cleaue vnto them , whereby they are subiect to vanitie and corruption ; as we may see in the sensitiue creatures by experience , their law of working was not to destroy and devour each other , and to make a pray of each other for their meate and foode , as we see the great beasts , foules , and fishes doe , to satisfie their hunger vpon the smaller ; for he appointed them their foode otherway , as appeareth in Genesis 1.30 . in these words ; Likewise to every beast of the earth , and to every foule of the heaven , and to every thing that moveth vpon the earth , which hath life in it selfe , every greene hearbe shall be for meate , and it was so . Besides , it is said in Genesis the 6. that the earth was corrupt before the Lord , for the earth was filled with crueltie ; for beasts and foules do cruelly oppose each other by fighting & tearing each other , as we see by dogs how they doe cruelly teare with their teeth one another , and Cockes with fighting kill one another ; as we see it also with other beasts and foules , how cruelly they oppose each other ; and all this came by man , who cruelly murthered himselfe by his sinne ; and man and woman how cruell they are each to other , is too lamentable to speake of . Beasts before the fall of man did dwell together , ●sa . 11.4.5 . and none did molest or hurt one another , but so soone as man had rebelled against the Lord , and that themselues were subiect vnto vanitie , they began to oppresse and devour one another . But is this all ? No , they are corrupted in their law of subiection and obedience in their service vnto man ; For the ravening beasts , as Lyons , Beares , Tigers , Wolues , and Dogs , with many more , will teare in peeces , deuour , and eate the flesh of man ; nay , all the host of Gods creatures , are readie prest to execute the Lords justice against man , for his rebellion by sinne against God : a mans horse will strike his Maister , and will faulter in his law of strength by stumbling , to the laming or killing of his maister : a mans dog will bite his Maister ; and his Cow will gore him , even sometimes to death . What should I say ? it is marvaile that our morsels we eate , doe not suffocate and stop our breath ; that our cloths doe not cleaue to our skin , and teare it off our backe ; that our houses fall not on our heads , and crush vs in peeces ; and the ground we tread on , swallows vs not vp quicke ; the very law of the creatures , is so turned against man , for his subiecting them to vanitie and corruption , by his sinne against God their Creator , that the Lord is often faine by miracle to stay their rages : as to quench the violence of devouring fire in the Oven , into the which the three servants of God were cast by Nebuchadnezzar ; and to stop the mouths of Lyons , into whose dennes Daniel was cast : our Saviour staid the waues of the Sea , and stilled the tempestuous stormes and winds . Nay , I thinke I may safely say , that the Lord doth continually worke miraculously for vs , in that he stayeth the rage of all the creatures , from working our present destruction , wee having by our sinnes brought them to vanitie and corruption , but this our omnipotent God doth , to glorifie himselfe in his rich goodnes & mercy ; for as it is in the Psalme , Psal . 104. the earth is ful of the goodnesse of the Lord ; And this goodnes the Lord doth still continue to invite & draw vs vnto himselfe , the essence and fountaine of all good ; and those that submit their willes to be drawen vnto , and to seeke him , the goodnesse of the creatures , are as pledges of his loue ; but those that will not be invited to seeke him , the goodnesse of the creatures , will but fat them vp against the great day of slaughter . And thus far of the corruption of the sensitiue elementaries , and of the corruption of the whole world by mans sinne .

Philip ,

You haue made a long digression from our intended conference of the visible Church .

George ,

I haue so , but I hope my digression hath tended to edification , and to draw you along to the better vnderstanding and consideration of the corruption of the visible Church .

Philip ,

What corruption doe you meane ? I know all men are corrupted with sinne , and so the visible Church is corrupted in that it consisteth of sinfull members .

George ,

Nay , I would haue you to know , that the visible Church in the severall parts of it , may be and often is corrupted with errour , and even heresie too .

Philip ,

I deny that , for our Church doth not erre , and it holdeth that it cannot erre in matter of faith .

George ,

I haue told you , that I would proue , that the visible Church may and often hath erred in matters of faith .

Philip ,

Well , let me heare what you can say , to proue that which you haue said , which I know you cannot doe .

George ,

Thus I begin . All sinne whatsoever proceedeth either from the errour of judgement , or from the peruersnes of will , now I would intreate you , to consider with me a little what I haue formerly said and proved . I haue shewed you , that all bodies both naturall , vegetatiue , sensitiue , rationall , and collectiue bodies , either civill or ecclesiasticall , which is the Church visible , that they all consist of matter and forme . I haue shewed you also of man , how he is corrupted in his law of reason , and will , by originall sinne . I haue also shewed you that for mans sinne the whole course of nature , even all the creatures are corrupted in the law of their working , and subiect vnto vanitie in justice for mans sinne . It now remaineth that I proue vnto you , that the visible Church in her forme and law of working may be corrupted : it is plaine by your owne acknowledgement , that all men are corrupted with sinne , your owne learned men doe freely grant , that albeit the Pope , as they say , cannot teach heresie , nor propound errour ; he may notwithstanding himselfe worship Idols ; thinke amisse concerning matters of faith ; yea , giue himselfe vnto acts diabolicall , even being Pope , and yet they hold him head and principall ruler of the visible Church ; but this is our comfort , we acknowledge no such rotten and corrupted head , but the head whom we doe acknowledge , is a most holy , most wise , and vncorrupted head , which head is Christ Iesus our Saviour : but seeing the head and members are corrupt , as you acknowledge , and may be subiect vnto errours ; hence it is , that the visible Church may erre , for that which is true in every member of the Church , is also true in the whole : because men in this life are inlightened but in part , and therefore still remaine subject to blindnesse of minde , and ignorance , and to rebellion of their will and affections . I know , that some learned men of ours , doe hold that the whole Church visible doth not erre , but in the parts it may and doth erre , but seeing it may erre in the parts , I cannot see , but it may doe so , though not fundamentally and pertinaciously in the whole : your Church is no more able to defend their grosse errours , then I am able to defend my selfe against an hoste of men of ten thousand , and therefore the devill hath taught them a tricke , to defend all in grosse at on● blow , by maintaining that the Church cannot erre : but Seniour Philip , I would wish you , and all private men , to take heed of this opinion ; for by this they doe deceiue many thousand soules , to their eternall perdition : for by this , they doe defend their grosse Idolatries , superstitions , and filthy absurdities , which must not be called into question , because their Church cannot erre .

Philip ,

But before you proceede any further , shew what is heresie , which maketh an hereticke .

George ,

It is to be deceived in iudgement , in some principall grounds of true religion , as the Arrians were , in the denying the eternitie of the sonne of God , and as the Pelagians were , and your Church with them , holding a libertie of will in a naturall man in godly actions : & to persist obstinately in the same .

Philip ,

From whence are the principles of religion gathered ?

George ,

I answere from the word of God .

Philip ,

So say we ; but what word is it you meane ?

George ,

I meane the word of God reveiled in the Scriptures , Tim . 3.15.16.17 . which is sufficient to make man wise vnto salvation , and to make a man of God perfect in all things .

Philip ,

I meane not onely the word of God written , but also the word of God reveiled to the Church by traditions , from both which the principles of religion are gathered .

George ,

Your traditions make the word of God in the scripture imperfect , as if they needed a supply , but we renounce your traditions , if they be brought to supply the defect of the scriptures , they being a perfect rule to lead vnto eternall blisse , and therefore all principles of religion must be drawne from thence : Marke what Saint Iohn sayth , what was the end of the written word , ●●h . 20.31 . these things are written , that you might beleeue that Iesus is that Christ that sonne of God , and that in beleeving , yee might haue life through his name : and if the scriptures were written to bring vs to faith , and to haue life in the name of Christ , and the scriptures being sufficient to this end , what neede haue we then of your traditions , they being indeed not the word of God , but the word of humane invention .

Philip ,

How can you know that scripture is scripture , and the word of God , but by the tradition of the Church ?

George ,

I answer we contemne not the testimony of the Church , no nor the testimony of Heathen histories , wherein are recorded many things that are set downe in the Bible : yet the Heathens testimony is not so good , as is the Churches , nor the Churches , so good , as the scriptures testifying of it selfe , nor the scripture so evident , as is the witnes of the Spirit , who was the Authour of the scriptures .

Philip ,

How doth the Church witnes , that the scripture is the word of God ?

George ,

By publishing , and preaching it to the world .

Philip ,

How doth the Church preach and publish it to the world ?

George ,

I answere first by reading , and therein it publisheth it , and preacheth it as a witnes , that the scriptures they reade , is the word of God , Secondly , the Church doth preach and publish it by Sermons , that the scriptures is the word of God , and this is by explication , in delivering the true sence , and applying it to the necessarie vse of sinfull soules .

Philip ,

And how doth the scripture beare witnes vnto men that it is the word ?

George ,

I answer , that the grounds to shew out of the scriptures , that they are the word of God , The causes of ●●e Scripture . may be reduced to sixe heads , the first is taken from the causes : as first , from God the Authour of scripturs ; and secondly , the pen-men of the holy Ghost , namely , the Apostles , and Prophets , and Evangelists , touching the authour , the Scripture refers it selfe onely vnto God , therefore he alone is the bare and vndoubted Authour thereof , and this in conscience we may rest vpon .

Philip ,

And what say you to the pen-men of the holy Ghost ?

George ,

For the writers of the scriptures , Moses , the Prophets , and the Apostles , in their writings doe not set forth their owne glory , vertue , and nobilitie , but haue acknowledged their owne errours , and faults , yea such faults , as may be disgracefull to themselues , and their posteritie : a plaine proofe , that they were not carried by policie , and naturall reason , but were holy men , guided by the holy Ghost : if reason had guided them they would never haue written , that which would haue turned to their disgrace , but would rather haue commended themselues , their name , stocke , and linage , as humane writers doe : but these writers giue and ascribe all praise and glory to God , yea when they speake of commendation due to men , they giue it all to God in men , God is in their writings , the beginning , the end , and all .

Philip ,

And what is the second head of reasons ?

George ,

The second head of reasons , The matter of the Scripture . is taken from the matter and contents , as first no other bookes can set out the corruption of mans nature by sinne , the fountaine of this corruption , and the punishment of the same , both in this life and in the life to come ; it discovereth sinfull particular thoughts , lusts , and affections , which no other booke hath ever done besides , the reason of man cannot discerne them by nature , vnlesse it receiue a further light by grace . Yea , the Scripture sets downe things , that no mans heart can imagine , and yet are true by experience : for example , that it is an evill thought to thinke there is no God , man by nature cannot imagine it , but it is true by experience , and therefore David saith , Psal . 14. the foole hath said in his heart , there is no God . Thus by the light of the Word it is true , therefore the Scriptures is the Word of God . Secondly , that the maine contents of the Scriptures are sundry Articles of faith , all which are aboue mans reason , and yet they are not against it , but at least some of them may be proved by it ; for example , that there is a Redeemer of the world , is an Article of faith aboue reason , yet not against it , for in naturall vnderstanding , God is not all justice , and no mercy , but if there were no Redeemer , then should God be all justice without mercie ▪ now because he hath reveiled himselfe , to be as well merciful , as he is just , reason concludeth , there is a Redeemer . Againe , that the Redeemer should be God and man , is aboue reason , yet not against it , for reason teacheth that he must be God , that he might satisfie the infinite justice of God for sinne , which none but God can doe ; againe , that he must be man , because that man had sinned , man must be punished for the sinne of man . Thirdly , in the Scriptures there are sundry predictions of Prophecies made before-hand particularly , which notwithstanding were not to come to passe till 100. 200. or 300. yeares after : and all these Prophecies or predictions , in the same manner as they haue beene foretold , haue beene fulfilled . As for example , Iacob in his Will foretold , that the Scepter should not depart from Iuda till Shilo , that is , the Messias come : this was verefied , even as it was foretold ; for a little before Christs birth , the Scepter was taken from the Iewes , and translated to the Romane Empire ; and Herod put the whole Colledge of the Iewish Governors , called the Sanedrin to death . I might declare many more predictions , which came to passe as they were foretold , which doe evidently shew , that the Scriptures are the Word of God . Fourthly , the Law a part of the Scripture , is propounded most purely and perfectly without exception or limitation , whereas in all mans Lawes some sinnes are condemned , but some be tollerated and permitted , but in Gods Law every sinne is condemned , & none either forborn● or excused , therefore the Scripture is Gods word . Lastly , the stile and speech of the Scripture is plaine and simple , without affectation , and yet full of grace and Maiestie ; for in that simple stile it commandeth the whole man , body , and soule ; it threatneth everlasting death , and promiseth everlasting life , and it doth more affect the heart of man , then all the writing in the world whatsoever . The effects of Scripture . The third reason to shew the Scripture to be the Word of God , is taken from the effects , whereof onely two shall suffice . First the doctrine of the scripture in the Law , and especially in the Gospell , is contrary to the corrupted nature of man ; wherevpon Paul saith thus ; Rom. 8.7 . the wisedome of the flesh is enmitie against God ; and yet the same Word being Preached , conuerteth nature , and turneth the heart of man into it , in such sort , as in this last age , it hath wonne a great part of the world , to the imbracing thereof . Now in reason this is impossible , that a thing which is so flat against mans corrupted nature , should prevaile with it so far , as to cause man to liue and to die in the profession and the maintenance thereof ; and this sheweth that God is the Author thereof , from whom the word of Creation came , to which every thing at the first yeelded obedience , therefore the Scriptures is the Word of God . Secondly , the Word of God hath this effect , to be able to minister comfort , in all distresses of body and mind , and of conscience ; and when the helpes of humane learning , which is of great vse , and force in other cases , haue done all that they can , without effect or successe , even then , the sweete promises of the Gospell , will reviue and raise vp the heart , and giue it full contentment . Experience sheweth this to be a confessed truth in particular cases , & it teacheth whence this word proceedeth , wherein these promises are contained , namely , from God : for when he setteth the conscience vpon the racke , the Word that relieueth and refresheth the same , must needs proceede and come from him alone . Properti●● . The fourth reason is from the properties of Scripture ; the first is antiquitie , which most plainely appeares in Scriptures by the Histories , though the doctrine is also as ancient ; therein is contained a continuall history , from age to age , for 4000. yeares before Christ , even from the beginning of the world . The second propertie is , consent with it selfe in all parts , both for matter , scope , and end . The writings of men do dissent from themselues , by reason of ignorance and forgetfulnesse in the Authors ; but the Scripture agreeth with it selfe most exactly , and the places that seeme to disagree , may easily be reconciled ; which sheweth , that holy men , by whom it was penned , were directed by the wisedome of the spirit of God ; therefore the Scripture is the Word of God .

Contraritties . The fift reason is drawen from the contrarieties : the Devill and wicked men , are in judgement and disposition , as contrary to Scriptures , as light to darkenesse . I proue it thus ; let a man reade any booke of Philosophie , and labour to be resolved vpon any one point therein , he shall never be tempted to infidelitie ; but if the same man read the bookes of Scripture , and labour to vnderstand them , he shall haue within himselfe , many motions and temptations , not to beleeue and obey it . Now , what should be the cause thereof , but that these bookes are the Word of God , which the devill labours to oppugne with might and maine , therefore the Scripture is the word of God ? Againe , consider the same in the practice of wicked men , they will not brooke the rebuke of their sinnes , as their Idolatrie , blasphemie , and other notorious crimes by Scriptures , but will seeke the life of him that shall sharply reproue them . And hence it was , that wicked Kings so persecuted the Lords Prophets . Yea further , let it be marked , that those wicked men that are tainted with those wicked crimes , and cannot abide the Scriptures and teachers thereof to their death , haue commonly fearefull ends . Now the opposition of Satan , and wicked men to the Scriptures , shewes them to be the most holy word of God . The sixt reason is taken from sundry testimonies ; first , of holy Martyres in the Old and New Testament , who haue given their liues for the maintenance of the Scriptures , and sealed with their bloud , and that most patiently and willingly , not being dismaid . The stories of Martyrs in all ages confirme this truth ; and vnlesse they had beene supported by a divine power , in so good a cause , they could never so many of them , haue suffered in such cruell manner as they did , therefore the Scriptures is the word of God . The second testimony , is the consent of heathen men ; heathen men , who haue recorded the same things , at least many of the principles that are set downe in the Scripture ; if this were not so , man should haue some colourable excuse of his vnbeliefe , and these things which they record , were not all taken out of the Bibles , but were regstired to memory by Historiographers , that lived in the times , when they were done ; such were the stories of the Creation , and Floud , and of the Tower of Babell , of the Arke , of Abraham , and of his possessions , of Circumcision , of the miracles of Moses , of the birth of Christ , of the death of Herod , Agrippa , and such like . And these we take for true in humane Stories , much more then , ought we to doe it in the Word of God , which is the Scriptures . The third testimony , is of miracles , the doctrine of Scripture was confirmed by miracles wrought by the Teachers thereof , the Prophets and Apostles , aboue all power and strength of nature , and such as the devill cannot counterfeit ; as the staying of the Sunne , and the raising of the dead , &c. The fourth , is the testimony of the holy Ghost , which is the argument of all arguments , to settle and resolue the conscience , and to seale vp the certaintie , that the Scripture is the Word of God .

Philip ,

But how is the testimony of the holy Ghost obtained , and how may we discerne it to be his testimony , and not of man ?

George ,

I answere first by resigning our selues to become truely obedient to the doctrine taught , Iohn 7.17 . Ioh . 7.17 . If any man will doe my Fathers will , sayth Christ , he shall know of the doctrine , whether it be of God , Secondly , by praying vnto God , for his spirit to certifie our consciences , that the doctrine reveiled is the doctrine of God : Aske sayth our Saviour , and it shall be given you , and Mat . 7.7.8 . Math 7.7.8 . Your heavenly Father will giue the holy Ghost to them that desire him . Luke 11.13 . Luk . 11.13 . If any man lacke wisedome , let him aske it of God , who giveth to all men liberally , and reproacheth no man , it shall be given him . Iames 1.7 . Iam . 1.7 . And thus I haue shewed you the evident testimonies , whereby a man may know that the scripture is the word of God : as first , the Church , whom God doth vse as his instrument , to draw Infidels , to beleeue the scripture to be the word of God , and when Infidels are so perswaded , then the scriptures as a more stronger evidence , doth testifie of it selfe , that it is the word of God , and this appeareth by those evident demonstrations , I haue formerly declared , and next the strongest and most infallible evidence is , of the spirit of God , when by his power , he doth regenerate , and change a man as it were , obediently into the word in loue , to feare the threats against sinne and sinners , and to obey the commandements , both negatiuely and affirmatiuely , and to repose himselfe confidently vpon the promises of grace and mercie therein reveiled , and so much shall suffice to proue that the scripture , is the word of God .

Philip ,

When will you begin to proue that the Church may erre , you haue againe , made a long digression from it .

George ,

My digression hath risen vpon your questions , which I held fit for you to moue , and me to answere , seeing the scriptures , are the ground of the Church , whereupon we doe now conferre , for as the Apostle saith , the Church is founded vpon the doctrine of the Apostles , and Prophets , Iesus Christ being the head corner stone , and wee know nothing of their doctrine , but by the scriptures : I know , you of your Religion , doe held the authoritie of the Church , is greater then the authoritie of the scriptures , and therefore our digression , hath not beene impertinent to our discourse of the Church , but of this hereafter .

Philip ,

What we of our Religion hold is true : but shew your proofe , that the visible church may erre .

George ,

I will begin with Adam , in whose loynes the visible Church was , even in the time of innocencie , and yet then the Church erred , Gen. 2.17 . the Lord gaue him a Law of prohibition , by forbidding him to eate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evill , in which commandement stood his happines , and felicitie , namely , by cleaving vnto God in obedience to this commandement , but hee erred from this commandement , Gen 3.4.9 . in beleeving the Devils doctrine , who sayd , ye shall not die at all : but God doth know , that when yee shall eate thereof , your eyes shall be opened , and ye shall be as Gods , knowing good and evill : This lying doctrine , Adam beleeved and obeyed to his owne ruine , and the corrupting his posteritie , this precept was easie for Adam to haue kept , seeing hee was perfectly pure by Creation , and had abilitie to performe his act of obedience . But seing the Church in innocency erred , there is little hope , that the Church visible , consisting of none , but corrupted members , should not erre . See what followed in the succeeding times of the visible Church , it was worse and worse , as may be seene by the corruption and confusion , that was in the time of Noah and of Abraham , and amongst the Israelites in Egypt , notwithstanding the miracles they saw , every day wrought before their eyes ; as saith the Lord by Ezechiell . When I had lift vp mine hand to deliver you out of Egypt , Ezech . 20.6.7.8 . none of you did cast away the abhominable things of Egypt : none of you did depart from your Idols . Thy breasts ( saith he to the visible Church , Ezech . 23. then to Ierusalem her selfe ) were brused by the Egyptians in their virginitie . And saith S. Steven , Act. 7.39 . in their hearts they turned backe into Egypt . And this shall suffice for the first state and period of the visible Church .

Philip ,

Well , let me heare what you can say of the next period of the Church visible ?

George ,

The next period of the Church , is vnder the Law . God hath had ever some Church visible vpon the earth , and therefore vnder the Law . When the people of God , Exod . 32. Psal . 106.19 . 2 Kings . 18 4. Iere . 11.13 . 2 King 22.17 both Priests and people , worshipped the Calfe in the Wildernesse ; When they adored the brasen Serpent ; When they served the gods of the Nations ; When they bowed their knees to Baall ; When they burnt Incense , and offered sacrifice to Idols . Were not these errours , thinke you , and yet were they the visible Church of God that fell away into these vile abuses ? True it is , the wrath of God was most fiercely inflamed against them , and their Prophets , justly condemned them , as an adulterous seede , and a wicked generation of miscreants , which had forsaken the living God , and of him were likewise forsaken , in respect of that singular mercy , wherewith he kindly and lovingly embraceth his faithfull children . Howbeit , the members of the visible Church they were , and had formerly bin , that thus after abandoned themselues to Idolatry , and to the service of strange gods : yea , members of the visible Church , continued many of them still , that yet worshipped the brasen Serpent , and that sacrificed in the high places , though directly contrary they did therein , to Gods expresse word and will . Finally , when the Iewes would not hearken , to the admonition of the Prophets of God , the gracious God would , as it were , force them by his mercy , and therefore sent them downe from heaven , salvation it selfe , to wit , Iesus Christ his onely Sonne our Lord . But how did the visible Church carry her selfe towards him ? Surely , he had no greater enemies , then the Priests , the Scribes , the Doctors , and the Pharisies ; and these were the Cleargie , as you speake , and such as had the Law committed vnto them ; these were those which should haue beene the lights of the Church ; and these , if Christ spake of the reformation of the Church , they said , He would destroy the Temple ; if he spake of the grace of God offered by the Messias , then they said , He blasphemed against the Law of God ; if he spake of the kingdome of heaven , then he spake against the Maiestie of Caesar ; if he wrought miracles , then they said , it was by the power of the devils ; and if he alledged the Scriptures , then they demanded to see his orders for his Doctorship ; and they cast him in the teeth , that he was but a Carpenters Sonne . And if you consider the Church visible amongst the people , they chose Barrabas , a murtherer , refusing Christ the Messias , and him they Crucified . Oh , what a feareful errour was this of the Rulers , and people of that visible Church ! And thus much , in briefe , of the errours of the visible Church from time to time , till Christ his ascension into heaven . I might haue shewed multitudes of examples in particulars , of the error of the visible Church before the Crucifying of Christ ; but for the avoiding of wearisome tediousnesse to you and my selfe ; I haue thought these sufficient , and if you will but acquaint your selfe with the Scriptures , you shall find much more errour to haue beene in the visible Church , then any man can well relate by speech vnto you .

Philip ,

Well , let me heare you proue to me , that one part of the visible Church is , or may be , more corrupted with errour then another .

George ,

I answere , the visible Church , as I haue said , is but one ; of which Church , all parts haue not beene alwayes equally sincere and sound . In the dayes of Abia , it appeareth plainely , that Iudah was by many degrees , more free from heresie and pollution then Israell ; as that solemn Oration sheweth , where he pleadeth for the one against the other , on this wise ; O Ierobeam , and all Israell , heare you mee , haue you not driven away the Priests of the Lord , the sonnes of Aaron , and the Levites , and haue made you Priestes like the people of the Nations : whosoever commeth to consecrate with a young Bullocke and seaven Rammes , the same may be a Priest of them that are no gods ; but we belong vnto the Lord our God , and haue not forsaken him , and the Priests the sonnes of Aaron minister vnto the Lord every morning and every evening burnt offerings and sweet incense , and the bread is set in order vpon the pure Table , and the Candlestickes of gold , with the Lampes thereof to burne every evening ; for we keepe the watch of the Lord our God , but yee haue forsaken him . And doe you not thinke , that the parts of the Christian Church , were defiled more one then another , with error & corruption , after Christs ascension ? In S. Pauls time , the puritie and integritie of Rome was famous : oh , that the Church of Rome were now as then it was ! we need not then be exhorted , to joyne with it in Gods service ; for we would willingly glorifie God in her communion and fellowship , but as shee is we dare not , least we be partakers of her sinnes . Reade the Epistles to the Church of the Corinthians , and you shall find her many wayes reprooved . Looke into the Church of Galatia , and you shall find by the Epistle which Paul writ to them , that they were much more out of square , then Corinth was . Looke in S. Iohn his time , who ( as I take it ) out-lived all the Apostles , and you shall find Ephesus and Smyrna in far better state of puritie , then Thiatira and Pergamus were : the errors of them I omit for brevities sake .

Philip ,

But Rome hath greater promises and priviledges then all other parts of the visible Church , and therefore no maruaile if they fayle ; if they forsake submission and communion with her .

George ,

In time convenient , we shall heare you shew the promises , and priviledges , and primacie of the Church of Rome aboue other parts of the visible Church . But in the meane time , it is cleare , as I haue proved , that the visible Church hath erred in her severall parts , and that one part hath beene more corrupted , and more erroneous then another ; it is the dutie therefo●e of the visible Church , if one part be wounded with error or heresie , that the sounder in charitie labour to heale it ; if one pa●t be lamed , the stronger part is in dutie to indevour to make it goe vpright in the faith of Gods truth ; if one part be full of Leprosie , the pure part should labour to clense it ; if one part be sicke vnto death in heresie , the sounder part should labour to keepe it aliue in the Lords truth . This dutie hath our Church of great Brittaine charitably performed towardes the Church of Rome , as is evident both by the learned bookes of our late gracious renowned & learned King ; as also by the learned and godly disputations , and bookes of Controversies with your Church of Rome , and yet shee continueth in her corruptions and heresies still . It may be said of Rome , as our Saviour Christ said of Ierusalem , Math . 23.37.38 . in S. Mathews Gospell ; his words are , Ierusalem , Ierusalem , which killest the Prophets , and stonest them which are sent vnto thee , how often would I haue gathered thy children together , as the henne gathereth her chickens vnder her wings , and yee would not . And doth not the Church of Rome follow Ierusalem in her rebellion , in killing and crucifying the Pastors & Prophets of the new Testament , which Christ in loue doth send vnto her , to reclaime her ? Hath not the Lord in mercie , a long time spread out the wings of the Gospell , and clucked to the Chickens of Rome to come and gather themselues vnder the wings of his gracious protection , and to shelter and keepe them , from eternall wrath and confusion to come , and yet they will not come out of that Church of confusion ? I would wish you Seniour Philip , and all private men to obey the voyce of Christ , and be well acquainted with it , to discerne it from the voyce of Antichrist , which speaketh in the Church of Rome . Blessed be God , the voyce of Christ in the Gospell , hath prevailed with many in drawing them to repentance ; and although the Church of Rome , doe labour to suppresse and darken the light of it , yet God in mercie doth still keepe it open , and causeth it to shine , whereby many are gathered into the more pure part of the visible Church , to their eternall salvation .

Philip ,

The Church of Rome hath the Gospell of Christ as well as your Church .

George ,

But your Church keepes it shut from such as you and I am ; wee must trust them with our salvation ; wee must not looke into the Gospell of Christ for it ; is not this a pittifull case ?

Philip ,

Well , what haue you further to say of the visible Church ; if you haue any thing further to say , speake on , that we may proceede to conferre of other things .

George ,

I said that when I had shewed the Creation and corruption of all things , I would shew the destruction of them : and in this I will be briefe . First therefore I say againe , that corruption doth goe before destruction , and corruption is the cause of destruction , we may see by our owne experience , that mans body being corrupted by diseases , bringeth forth death , which destroyeth the body . This corruption groweth for want of due proportion , the want of which , is caused by defect or want of that which should be , or by excesse of that , which should not be : and this distemper , hath God laid vpon mens bodies for their sinne ; the whole course of nature , as you haue heard , is corrupted in the law of working , by Gods judgement for mans sinne , and therefore at the day of Iudgement must be destroyed , as appeareth by the Apostle Peter . 2 Pet . 3.7 . Pet . 2.3.7 . The heavens and earth which are now , are kept by the same Word in store ; and reserved vnto fire , against that day of condemnation , and destruction of vngodly men . And in the 10. verse , Vers . 10. he sheweth that this destruction shall be vnexpected ; for he saith , but the day of the Lord will come as a theefe in the night , in the which the heavens shall passe away with a noyse , and the elements shall melt with heate , and the earth , with the workes that are therein , shall be burnt vp . And the Apostle by way of exhortation in the 11. and 12. Vers . 11.12 . verses , saith to the visible Church , Seeing therefore that all these things must be dissolved , What manner of persons ought yee to be in holy conversation and godlinesse , looking for , and hastning vnto the comming of the day of God , by the which the heavens being on fire , shall be dissolved , and the elements shall melt with heate ? And thus you see that the whole world of Gods creatures must be destroyed ; all wicked men both in the visible Church , and out of it , must be destroyed , the obedient and meeke sheepe of Christ , must goe on his right hand to be blessed for evermore , and the sturdy goats on his left hand , to vndergoe his curse and wrath for evermore ; therefore happy are they , which against that day , haue wrought out their salvation with feare and trembling : and against that day haue made their calling and election sure vnto themselues , and then they will lift vp their heads with joy . Thus you may perceiue , that the visible Church at this great day of destruction , shall haue an end ; nay , the inke , paper , and parchment of the Word of God must be destroyed with fire , but the Word of God endureth for ever .

Philip ,

It is time now that we come to conferre vpon the markes of the Church , which we doe hold as infaileable to the visible Church , whereby it may be knowne .

George ,

I pray you , Seniour Philip , giue me leaue a little , to say somewhat more of the visible Church , to shew you not onely that it may , and hath erred , which alreadie I haue proved , but the way whereby it hath erred , and is possible to erre , if it be not guided with the spirit of God . The Word of God is for ever most pure , ●sal . 12.6 . and therefore cannot be corrupted by any devill , or devilish men : but the Church may be corrupt two wayes : The first , by falsed explications , in delivering a false sence of some part of the Scriptures , & making that false sence to be a Rule and Law of working for the visible Church . The other way is , by making the Word written to be imperfect , by adding a supply of the imperfection thereof by the Churches traditions . And these two wayes the Church of Rome doth erre most grosly , as hereafter , God-willing , shall be declared in our further Conference . But I will no longer hinder you , from shewing me the markes of the Church , which your Church holdes infaileable ; come , I pray you let me heare them .

Philip ,

I pray Seniour George , faile not seriously to obserue them ; for they be such as will not deceiue you , but will directly point out vnto you the pure visible Church of Christ , to which if you submit your selfe , you may expect salvation .

George ,

Well , Seniour Philip , let me heare them .

Philip ,

They be these : 1. Succession ; 2. Antiquitie ; 3. Multitude ; 4. Miracles ; 5. Visibilitie ; 6. Unitie ; 7. Holy ; 8. Catholicke .

George ,

Then Seniour Philip , if it please you we will try by your markes which is the purer Church , yours of Rome , or ours of great Brittaine .

Philip ,

I am very well contented , and if you will , wee will begin with your Church : and first , for Succession ; by this marke , you are no Church , for your Church hath beene but since Luthers dayes , which I take it is not so much as 200. yeares ; but our Church succeeded the Apostles liueally from Bishop to Bishop , especially , S. Peter in his Bishopricke and seate of Rome .

George ,

I pray you , Seniour Philip , is this succession of place and person , a ground of your faith and Religion , whereby you looke to attaine everlasting life ?

Philip ,

Yes surely , it is a principall ground of our faith and Religion .

George ,

Then I am very sorry for you , that you build your faith and salvation , vpon so vnsound , so vncertaine , and so erronious a ground .

Philip ,

Well , what say you to succession , doe you vtterly deny that ?

George ,

No , surely , so as there be not wanting succession of sound and vncorrupted doctrine . And if you will giue me leaue , I will shew you our foundation , vpon which we build our faith and salvation ; and next , I will shew you our succession .

Philip ,

I warrant you will shew me a goodly foundation : how can you shew a foundation , or a Church of God to build vpon that foundation , seeing you want builders ; for your builders are but counterfeit , for they cannot shew their lawfull ordination , and sending , whereby they haue power to build ; for the Apostle saith , None can Preach , Rom. 8. except he be sent .

George ,

Well , Seniour Philip , harken what I shall say in defence of our Church of great Brittaine ; and if you will reason with mildnesse , like a good Christian , though you be very ignorant , yet if your errours be but a misconceit in your judgement , and are not yet growen into your will of peruersnesse , then I hope all partiall affections will be laid aside by you , and you will giue heede vnto the truth , you shall heare : but if your partiall respect to the Church of Rome be such , that you will not giue heede vnto the truth when you heare it , then it will be better to giue over our Conference . What say you ; will you heare with a meeke mind ?

Philip ,

Well , I will heare you till you be weary , as I haue before promised you .

George ,

Then thus I begin , when man had vtterly lost his life of holines by sinne , and by it exposed himselfe to all miseries both corporall and spirituall , temporall and eternall ; the mighty and gracious God , out of his infinite goodnes and mercy , laid a supernaturall foundation and ground , whereupon , to build a spirituall and supernaturall house , for his owne speciall habitation , which is the Church of his elect : and this foundation , was layd before he called labourers to build his elect vpon it . I desire therefore to take the same course in reasoning with you : all men of discretion you know , when they goe about to build a house , will first be assured the ground is strong , firme and sure , and then will get labourers and artificers to build it vp ; this therefore is my desire , to shew you the foundation and ground of the Church , before I come to the Church , or builders thereof .

Philip ,

Well , proceed , what is the ground of the Church , whereupon it is built , and which a man must rest his soule on for ever ?

George ,

I answer : that the foundation and ground of the Church of Gods elect , is the promise of God , and the matter promised , Gen. 3.15 . which is , the seede of the woman , shall breake the serpents bead : this is that foundation , on which the Church hath beene built in all the ages of the world . I thinke I shall not neede to proue , that this seede of the woman , is Iesus Christ our Saviour , for I suppose that the weakest Christian doth know it ; but this I desire to proue , that the Church hath no other foundation , and that this foundation , is the alone foundation , and that there is none other , whereupon the Church should be builded , 1 Cor . 3.11 . and this by the first to the Corin . 3.16 . is manifest , in these words , for other foundation can no man lay , then that which is laid , which is Iesus Christ ; and that Christ is the foundation of the Church , looke these places . Mat . 16.18 . and 21.24 . Acts. 4.11 . and many moe : vpon this foundation , the Church of old , in the time of nature , was built even when , and before the word of God was written , for God reveiled this foundation to Adam , by word of mouth , and renewed the same to the 12. Patriarkes , by tradition for the space of 2400 yeares : vnto the time of Moses , the liues of men in the Patriarkes times , were long , and their memories served as bookes , to record this foundation , and therefore when the liues of men were shortened by sinne , it pleased God to vse in mercy to his Church , meanes more durable ; and therefore in Moses time , committed the foundation , and doctrine of the Church to writing : therefore our Saviour Christ sayth now , Search the Scriptures , for in them , you thinke to haue eternall life , for they testifie of me : So that if ever we will finde the foundation , and the doctrine , to build the Church vpon this foundation , we must looke into the scriptures for all , or else , we shall never but goe astray ; therefore the Apostle sayth , Ephe . 2. ●0 . Yee are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets , Iesus Christ himselfe , being the chiefe corner stone . This is the foundation vpon which our Church of great Brittaine , doth build the soules of men vnto heaven I hope you dare not say this is an errour , and a false foundation .

Philip ,

No I will not say , it is an errour , and false foundation , but this is your errour , that you will not admit an other foundation , though Christ himselfe , hath layd one in these words , vpon thee Peter , will I build my Church , but this I will further proue anone .

George ,

I haue shewed you in Paul to the Corinthians , plaine deniall of any other foundation of the Church ; and therefore that place of our Saviour to Peter , must be vnderstood of the obiect of Peters faith , which is Christ himselfe , as the coherence of the place doth evidently declare . And when you indevour further to proue your false foundation , you shall haue further answere ; in the meane time , consider I doe earnestly desire you , as you tender your owne salvation , and intreat you to ground your faith , and salvation , vpon this most holy and strong fundation . All other foundations that the Church of Rome hath laid , are all but false foundations and will deceiue you .

Philip ,

Well Seniour George , tell me now the head of the Catholike Church , and declare that vnto me also .

George ,

I answere , that Iesus Christ our Saviour , is also the alone head of the Catholike Church , for he is not onely the strong and powerfull ground and foundation of the Church , to vphold it , that it sinke not into the sea of Gods wrath , to its confusion for ever , but hee is also the head and husband of the Church , who wisely governes his Spowes the Church , and that he is the head of the Church , see what the Apostle saith to the Ephesians , Ephe . 1.10 . and hath made all things subiect vnder his feete , and hath given him over all things , to be the head to the Church , which is his body ; Chap. 5. and he sayth further , in the 5. Chap. For the husband is the wiues head , even as Christ is the head of the Church , and the same is the Saviour of his body , and to the Colos . he saith , Col. 2.10.19 . and yee are complete in him , which is the head of all principallitie and power , and he is the master of the Church , Christ Iesus our Saviour is the essentiall word and wisedome of the Father , Math . 10.25 . and therefore wisely disposeth the building of the Church , vpon the foundation , which is himselfe : wee know by naturall reason , that though the soule of the body of man , is the life of every part , yet the seate of reason , wisedome , and vnderstanding is in the head , even so the soule of the Church , is the spirit of God , which spirit doth knit vs the members of the Church , vnto our head Christ , yet the seat of the wisedome of the Church , is in the head , which head , is anoynted with oyle of wisedome , and gladnes aboue his fellowes , and of his fulnes , doth the Church receiue grace for grace , and the severall members by him are made wise vnto salvation , this is indeede and in truth , the head of the Catholike Church , and vnder this head , doth our Church of great Brittaine , professe the Catholike faith , and our particular Church of great Brittaine , doth acknowledge no other Catholike head of the vniversall Church ; wee acknowledge our Soveraigne King CHARLES , to be supreame governour , of all causes Ecclesiasticall and civile , in his dominions , next and immediately vnder Christ ; but we doe not acknowledge him to be the supreame of the Catholike Church , neither will he be so impious , to take this title vpon him ; that title which he doth iustly take vpon him , and wee doe ascribe vnto him , is the gracious ordinance of God , for Esay prophesied that Kings should be nursing Fathers , and Queenes should be nursing Mothers , Isay . 49. even to the Churches of the Gentiles . The first king that governed the Common-wealth , and Church of Israel , was Saul , his name as sayth the learned , signifieth desired , for the people being weary of the government of God , 1 Sam . 8.7 . desired to haue a king to governe them , and God granted them their desire , and gaue them Saul to be their king ; and after Saul , David , 1 Sam . 16.17 . and then Salomon , and the rest lineally after him , till the Romans by Gods iust iudgement , for the sinnes of the Iewish Church , did conquer them , and then the scepter was taken away from the Tribe of Iuda , which was the Kings Tribe , but remained still with the Sanedrin of the Iewes , but when the prophesie of Iacob was fulfilled , which was , Gen. 49.10 . that Shilo should come , which Shilo was Christ , then did the Romanes take away the scepter from Iuda , and not before : now I say that Saul the first king , was not of the Tribe of Iuda , because he was desired of the people , but David being chosen of God for their king , hee was of the Tribe of Iuda , of whose seede lineally Christ came : now you see that kings are the ordinance of God : see what the head and foundation of your Church saith , which is Peter the Apostle , 1 Pet . 2.13 . Submit your selues vnto every ordinance of man for the Lords sake , whether it be vnto the King , as vnto the superiour , heare what the Apostle Peter saith , he calleth the king the superiour , but your Pope will be supreame aboue him , and he saith further , and vnto Governours , as vnto them that are sent of him , for the punishment of evill doers , and for the prayse of them that doe well : and see their power confirmed by the Apostle Paul in these words , Rom. 13.1.2.3.4.5 . Let every soule be subiect to the higher powers , these powers are the Magistrates , and they are ordained of God , and there must be subiection to them , for conscience sake : Let your Pope and Priestes , and People , looke to this ordinance of God , but your Pope especially makes no conscience of this ordinance of God , but shewes himselfe as king of kings : now further what saith our Saviour Christ , for the confirmation of the power of kings , saith he , giue vnto Caesar , the thing that is Caesars . Thus you see what we attribute vnto our king , which is a superioritie of governement in his owne dominions , and not over the whole Catholike Church : but to the head and foundation of the Church , I say againe vnto you Seniour Phillip , and to all priuate men whatsoever , by way of admonition , that you looke most carefully to the head and foundation of your soules : for it is a dangerous matter in this to be deceived ; for the building of your soules , must be answerable to the foundation , and that must be by sound , pure , and wholesome doctrine : let me shew you a little resemblance ; A man that buildeth an house , and setteth it partly , vpon a firme and strong foundation , and partly , vpon an vnfirme , sandie , and vnsound foundation , that vnsound foundation , being not strong to beare vp the building , will be an occasion of the fall , and ruine of the whole frame : whereas if the builders had built the house vpon the strong foundation onely , though they had not builded it so cunningly as they should , yet there is hope the house would stand , by reason of the strong foundation ; and that part of the vnskilfull building , by better advise might be mended : now to apply this to our present purpose ; your Church of Rome , doth build , as they pretend your soules to God , and they doe lay a foundation ; this foundation , is partly Christ , and partly Peter , and his supposed successors the Popes . Now I say the latter part of their foundation is erroneous and vnsound , and will proue the vtter destruction of your soules for ever ; for Christ will be the whole foundation , or none at all , and therefore build not your soules vpon such deceitfull foundations ; as these , that Peter had a soveraignty over the rest of the Apostles . 2. That hee was a particular Bishop . 3. That he was Bishop of Rome . 4. That he had his seate at Rome 25. yeares . 5. That the Pope that now is , is Peters successor , and 6. That the Church of Rome , cannot erre , nor the Pope in his consistory . I tell you Seniour Philip , these be such rotten foundations , and so erroneous , or vncertaine , that the relying vpon them , will rather bring you to eternall confusion , then to everlasting salvation and blisse for ●vermore . I haue shewed you in the Corinthians , that other foundation can no man lay , then that which is layd , which is Iesus Christ . If the builders vpon this foundation , be vnwise , by building vpon it false doctrine , which is likened to straw or stubble , this manner of building , shall not alwayes deceiue , but the light of the truth at length , appearing as day , shall dissolue this darke doctrine , and shew what it is , so that it shall not stand vpon this pure foundation , which is Christ ; yet so long as this gratious foundation which is Christ is mainetained intire , there is hope of salvation vpon repentance : for their false building , it shall be burnt away with the fire of Gods truth .

Philip ,

Well Seniour George , it is now time to conferre vpon our markes of the visible Church .

George ,

I am contented that now we begin to examine them , but I must tell you , we shall now spend our conference most vpon controversies , depending betweene your Church of Rome , and ours of Great Brittany .

Philip ,

And I must tell you Seniour George , that there is no part of the visible Church , that doth contend with the Church of Rome in contrarying her doctrine , and opposing against her , but they are hereticall , and schismaticall Churches ; and therefore I feare you will shew your selfe an heretike if you contradict the doctrine of our Church .

George ,

You make me remember a thing done in my Fathers house , when I was a little boy : there was a Plow-man of my Fathers , who being a good husband , had by his thrift got a stocke of money , and in a Winter evening received 3. pound of one of his debtors , and told it by the Kitchin fire , before his fellowes : and one of them a wicked fellow , covetous of his money , vpon a sudden went out of the Kitchin , as if he went to bed ; but indeede , went and stood behind the stable doore , with his hatchet in his hand , prepared ready against hee that had the money should come to bed , who lay over his horses , and when he came to bed , he strucke his fellow on the head with his hatchet , and dazeled him , and he that was strucken , laid his hand vpon his head , and the theevish fellow strucke againe with his hatchet , and hit his fellow that had the money , on the backe of the hand , the Plow-man being thus vilely strucken , cryed out so , that the whole house-hold came out to helpe him , and the doggs came out running before them , so that the theevish fellow was prevented of his purpose , and was inforced to flee from him , whom hee had thus treacherously strucken , and being out of sight of the whole household , runneth with the doggs deceitfully , as if he had set them on the theefe : but indeede himselfe was the cheefe , as was afterwards well proved ; even so it is with your Church of Rome , all visible parts of the Church , that haue purged and reformed themselues , from the drosse and filth of your corruptions , you tearme them schismatikes , and hereticall Churches - when in truth , the Church of Rome her-selfe , is the most notorious hereticall , and schismaticall Church in the world : but why are those parts of the visible Church hereticall ? even forsooth , because they will not acknowledge the Popes tyranny , and arrogancie over the Catholike Church , which by their report , is the principall Article , we must beleeue , if we will be saved , and againe , because we reiect Images : and because , wee worship not the bread in the Communion : and because , wee communicate vnder both kindes : and because , the Priestes with vs are married : and because , wee know not what Purgatory is , nor alow of it : these and many more of your heresies , because we alow them not , but abhorre them , because they are contrary doctrines to Gods truth , therefore all the reformed Churches , are Churches of heretikes , and your Pope doth set his Priests , and Iesuites , to barke at the true reformed Churches , as if they were theeues , and robbers , that come in at the window , rather to fleece the flocke of Christ , then to feede them with whole some foode of Gods truth , when indeede they themselues , are the starvers , fleecers , and stroyers of the flockes of Christ Iesus .

Philip ,

Well , well , you still wrong the Church of Rome , for shee is the true ancient Church , and holds the ancient faith , and if you can , shew me the errour , the Authour of the errour , and the time , when such errour was brought into the Church , and if you cannot , you are a vile fellow , in thus condemning the Church of Rome , for an hereticall Church .

George ,

Is not he a strange foolish man , that his house being on fire , and his neighbour telling him of it , will driue his neighbour to proue how it came on fire ; hee should rather thanke his neighbour , and intreate him to helpe to put it out , then to driue him to proue , by what man , and at what time , it came on fire ; nay , your Pope should doe , as cleanely housewiues doe , who when their houses are foule , doe not inquire how they came foule , but will set their servants a worke , and put their owne helping hand also to the cleansing of them : but your Pope and Priests , will rather defile the Church of Christ , with their filthy feete of their affections , by bringing in more vile superstitions , then cleanse it of any .

Philip ,

Well , proue the errour , the Authour , and the time of the errour , or else you proue nothing , and what you say , is idle and vaine .

George ,

Well , I will shew some of your errours , the Authours of the errours , and about what time , they were brought into the Church , and by these few , you may perceiue , how the rest came into the Church , by the pride and covetousnes of your Popes . The sonnes of Zebedees children , Math . 10.42 . sued to Christ for the greatest roomes of honour in his kingdome , Christ answers them , yee know that the Lords of the Gentiles haue dominion , an● they that are great , exercise authoritie over them , but it shall not be so with you ; what saith Saint Bernard vpon thi● place to Pope Eugenius , it is plaine saith he , that here dominion is forbidden ; and what saith your owne Pope Gregory the great , if one be called vniversall Bishop , the vniversall Church goeth to decay : and yet doth your Pope vsurpe an vniversall dominion directly , against the plaine prohibition of our Saviour Christ , and the iudgement of these two Fathers : the one whereof , being Pope , did oppose Iohn Bishop of Constantinople , which laboured for the vniversall supremacy , which afterward Boniface the 3. Bishop and Pope of Rome , ambitiously obtained , about the yeare of our Lord and Saviour Christ , 6●7 . and of whom did he obtaine it , but of Phocas the Emperour , who as stories record , was a murtherer of his Lord and Master : And this is the first error , that I note now of your Church , with the Authours , and the time of it . Gods commandement is , that no Images be made for superstitious vse , Exod 20. and that none should bow downe to them , nor worship them : and yet Adrian Pope of Rome , prevailed with Constantine the Emperour , and his mother Irene , to hold a Councel at Nice , which yet was not the antient and first Councell of Nice , in which Councell , was decreed the retaining , making , having , setting vp , and worshipping of Images , and to salute them in the name of the Lord ; was not this grosse Idolatry thinke you ? This was about the yeere of Christ , 733. and here you haue the Authours , and time of this grosse errour . The Leviticall priests were married , and so were some of the Apostles , and Paul saith , Let a Bishop be the husband of one wife : he saith , to avoid fornication , let every man take his owne wife : and yet contrary to Gods word , and the practise of godly pastors , Pope Silvester the first , for bad Sub-deacons to marry , and this was about the yeere of our Lord , 315. and Pope Damasus about the yeere 369. decreed that no Clergie man , should haue knowledge of his wife , because it is written , those that are in the flesh cannot please God : and Gregory the 7. about the yeere 1070. in a Councell at Rome , forbiddeth the Clergie , Priests , Bishops or Deacons , to marry , vnder paine of the great curse , this doctrine is plaine the doctrine of Devils , as Paul sayth . About the yeere 492. Pope Gelasius , began to be Pope , in whose time , some would haue brought in the Communion of the Lords supper but in one kind , but this Gelasius writeth against such ; I know not by what superstition they are taught to be thralled , who taking the portion of the holy bodie only , doe abstaine from the cup of the hallowed bloud : either saith hee , let them receiue the whole sacraments , or be put from the whole , for such division of the sacrament , can not , without great sacriledge be committed : and yet the Church of Rome , doth take from the people , the communion of the bloud of Christ , and hath prohibited their participation therein , by a solemne decree , ma●e in the Councell of Constance : contrary to the commandement of our Saviour Christ , who commandeth , Drinke ye all of this , as well as , eate yee all of this . Pope Symmachus , began his regency the yeere of our Lord , 500. and in his time ( if the decree at least be his ) he decreed , that the Pope is subiect to none , but God , and yet Saint Peter saith , Men should submit to every ardinance of man , for the Lords sake , whether it be vnto the king , as vnto the superiour . Pelagius the first , was the first that brought into the Masse , prayer for the dead , 555. out of a short history , of your Popes , collected by a learned divine of ours , I had these errors , and might thence haue shewed you , the beginnings of many more , with the Authours of them ; but these shall suffice to the wise Christian , to take heede of seducement by any , to submit vnto that Church .

Philip ,

Well , come Seniour George , let vs come now to our markes of the visible Church , and first for succession , shew me the iudgement and practise of your Church , touching this marke ; and then I will shew you the iudgement and practise of our Church of Rome , I doe thinke you cannot proue your Church , to be a visible Church of Christ , by this marke .

George ,

God willing , by this marke , I will proue our Church , to be a pure part of Christs visible Church , which I shall the better proue , if I shew you the succession of the visible Church , even from the beginning of the world , which I will doe according to my poore vnderstanding and reading , and that I hope according to the Analogie of faith reveiled in the scriptures , and the ministery of the word of faith in this Church , wherein I haue beene bred all my dayes . I doe hold it a truth , that ever since the world was created and finished , there was a visible or sensible knowne Church : the Church was once in innocencie , in the loynes of Adam and Eue , and though Adam by eating the forbidden fruit , made himselfe , and his posterity , no Church of God , yet before God did giue sentence against them , hee laid the foundation of the Church in the promise , that the seede of the woman should breake the Serpents head : and this promise was made sencible to Adams vnderstanding , though he and Eue had not grace of faith , to build their soules vpon it , till God had given sentence of guiltines , and condemnation vpon them : I say then that Christ the promised seede of the woman , for in him the second person in the Trinitie , assumed our nature , so that those two natures , were yet but one person , is the foundation of the visible Church : but how is he the foundation of the visible Church ? Not as he is the foundation of Gods elect ; he is the foundation of the visible Church , by externall profession , and externall ministery , whereby they do outwardly acknowledge , and outwardly proclaime him to bee the head , and foundation of the Church : for even those that haue not saving and sanctifying grace , yet may conceiue and beleeue Christ to be the Messias , who should reconcile men vnto God , and they may conceiue and beleeue him to be God , because God , who in nature is infinite , and is infinitely offended , is to be appeased also , by such a nature as is infinite , as also they may conceiue and beleeue that man having offended God , must make satisfaction , which no man nor Angell could doe , but the man Christ Iesus , being perfect God and perfect man . And this foundation God layd , before he called Adam , either externally to be a pastor , or builder of the soules of others vpon this foundation , yea or before hee called him by an effectuall calling , to build his owne soule vpon this foundation by faith ; so that God himselfe immediately did preach Christ vnto Adam , and by his preaching , did call Adam by an effectuall calling , and gaue him faith to build his soule vpon Christ the foundation : hee made him also a Priest , to ●lesse the people , proceeding from his loynes , and to offer sacrifices for himselfe and the people . He was also a King to governe them , and a Prophet to teach them : now that Adam was a priest , I thinke wee neede not doubt , for the which I alledge this reason ; first , Adam and Eue having sinned , they were both ashamed , and God clothed them with skins of beasts , to shew them their beastlines ; now the bodies of those beasts ( it may be thought ) were for Adam to offer in sacrifice , and that by them God caught him a law , and vse of sacrifice : for it is not likely , that God would destroy beasts , to haue them spoyled ; and it may seeme that Adam had not libertie yet to eate any ; and we see , that Caine and Abell offered sacrifices , as being taught by their father Adam . These sacrifices were types , and figures of Christ to come , who should be slaine , and offered as an eternall sacrifice , well pleasing vnto God for the sinnes of the world : now as God gaue Adam a law of sacrifices , so also hee gaue him a law of faith , and obedience , which law of faith and obedience , is the very same law of faith , and religious obedience , which we in the Church of great Brittaine , doe professe with them , as you shall heare anone . Now I say , Adam was the first builder of the soules of men vpon the foundation , which God in his infinite goodnes , mercie , and power had laid : and he built them by that law and rule , faith and doctrine , which God had taught him , and this faith , doctrine , and law of working , is inseperably ioyned to those builders , whom God doth send ; and therefore none must seperate those whom God hath joyned : and therefore I marveile , that the Church of Rome doe make succession of Pastors , to be a marke of the Church of God , without succession of doctrine .

Philip ,

But I pray tell me , who were Adams successors in his priesthood .

George ,

I answer ; they were the first borne of every familie , to whom it may seeme , that the rest brought the Tithes , offerings , and sacrifices , that were due vnto the Lord , which some confirme also from the example of Abraham , who gaue tithes vnto Melchisedech , the first borne of that familie , whereof Abraham came ; if Melchisedech at least was Sem , Heb . 7.2 . the second sonne of Noah , as divers Divines of great note haue held , and had the prerogatiue of the first borne by Gods providence ; Abraham himselfe was a priest , by reason hee had a devided familie of his owne ; but Melchisedech was a greater priest , Vers . 6.9 . and ten degrees before him , and therefore Abraham gaue tithes vnto Melchisedech , and he did blesse ( according to his office of priesthood ) Abraham : the authour to the Hebrewes , sayth , without all contradiction , the lesse is blessed of the greater . Iacob vowed to giue tithes vnto the Lord , and it is probable , that he performed his vow , and gaue it into the hands of Isaack , who was his father , and first borne , Gen. 28 . 2● . and priest at that time by Gods special prerogatiue given vnto him : so that from hence , I gather that Adams two sonnes , Caine and Abell , brought their sacrifices to Adam their father , and high priest to offer vnto God : but howsoever that were , this is certaine , that as from Adam , they had beene taught to sacrifice , so they sacrificed ; and that course and order continued successiuely , till the time of the Law , and the priesthood of Levie .

Philip ,

But name his successors , and shew what law these first borne Priests had to build the Church vpon the promised seede , seeing they had no law written .

George ,

Gen 5. His successors and genealogie , are set downe in the 5. of Genesis , where there be ten priests , and builders of the Church , from the creation till the flood ; their names be these , Adam , Seth , Enosh , Kenan , Mahalaleell , Iered , Henoch , Methusalem , Lamech , Noah .

Philip ,

And what law and rule , had they to build the soules of men , vpon Christ the promised seede ?

George ,

I answere , that the word of God was their law and rule , by which they did build the Church vpon Christ the rocke of our salvation ; they builded not by humane inventions .

Philip ,

And how was the word delivered , seeing it was not written ?

George ,

I answere , that the word of God , was then delivered by tradition , first , God delivered and reveiled his will to Adam by word of mouth , and renewed the same to the Priests and Patriarkes , not by writing , but by speech , and dreames , and other inspirations ; and thus the word of God went from man to man , for the space of two thousand and foure hundreth yeares , vnto the time of Moses , who was the first penman of holy scriptures .

Philip ,

But can you shew nothing out of scripture , that that Religion , doctrine , and faith , which was then , is the same which your Church of great Brittaine , now professe and preach to the world ? you said it is the same , proue it , or else how shall I beleeue you , and if you doe not proue it , you will shew your selfe to be but a lyer and a deceiver .

George ,

God willing I will proue it hereafter , but first giue me leaue to confirme their Priesthood and sacrifice , by an other place of scripture , which I had almost forgot : Iob in his time was a priest , and Iethro , Moses father in law was a Priest , and therefore there were other Priests as I take it , besides the line of Priests which I haue recited : but those Priests were onely kept in memory by tradition , and registred by Moses ; because of their line the high Priest of our profession Christ should come , and because in that line , Religion was most purely preserved .

Philip ,

Proue that Iob was a priest .

George ,

I thinke I can doe it , and that very plainely in the last Chapter of his Booke , the Lord being angry , and his wrath kindled against Eliphas the Temanite , & his two friends ; for yee haue not spoken of me the thing that is right , like my servant Iob ; therefore take vnto you now seaven Bullocks , and seaven Rams , and goe to my servant Iob , and offer vp for your selues burnt offering , and my servant Iob shall pray for you , for I will accept him , least I should put you to shame ; thus you see that Iob was a Priest ; and did the office of a Priest , to pray for , blesse , and receiue the sacrifice of the people brought to him by Gods command : this confirmes that I haue formerly sayd of the Priesthood of Adam , and his successours .

Philip ,

Now to their Law and doctrine , let me heare it .

George ,

The Lord having created the first man , called his name Adam , which signifi●th earth , or earthly ; and Adams first son was Cain , which signifieth possession , for so did Adam name him : but he perceiving what might be the comfort of such possession , nameth his second Abell , which signifieth vanitie , to shew , that if a man haue never so large kingdomes , or possessions , or be never so nobly borne , as Cain was , except the sonne of God , it is all but vanitie , and a vexation of minde . This is the doctrine that we the Church of great Brittaine doe professe and teach , that Christ is the onely gaine and possession , and that all other gaine and possession is but vanitie and vexation without him ; therefore Adam nameth his third son Seth , which signifieth setled ; so that Adam considered his own miserable condition by sinne , and the vanitie of all things in this world , Gods grace so wrought with him , that by faith he setled himselfe vpon the promised seed , Christ Iesus , the immoveable rock of our salvation : and to expresse his stabilitie of faith , called his sonne Seth , that is , setled . Now you shall see by the names of the rest of the ten fathers , what vertues are signified by them , Seth having obtained by Gods free favour the faith of his father Adam ; this faith being the principall grace , whereby the soules of the righteous are knit vnto Christ ; and it is faith in Christ , that produceth a godly life ; for , what is not of faith is sinne , therefore Seth calleth his sonne Enosh , which signifieth zealous , and therefore sorrowfull ; and this he did , because he saw the corruption of Religion , and good life to insue vpon the marriage of the sonnes of God with the daughters of men , who regard worldly preferment rather then the promise of life everlasting , by continuing in true Religion , which zeale and sorrow we professe for the like sinnes . Enosh named his sonne Kenan , which signifieth the contrite or godly repentance , which sorrow is mentioned by the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians , where he saith ; I reioyce not that yee did sorrow , but that yee sorrowed vnto repentance : which sorrow vnto repentance , is a turning from all sinne vnto God : and this contrition , sorrow , and repentance we professe and teach . Now as repentance commeth of godly sorrow , and as faith , zeale , and godly sorrow vnto repentance , are gracious gifts of God ; so there is required a thankefull acknowledgement of them ; therefore Kenan named his sonne Mahalaleel , which signifieth prayse God ; which none can doe effectually , without an humble and a lowly mind ; he knowing that such fruit is required of such a tree , therefore he nameth his sonne Iared , the humble or lowly . Now looke backe a little , what hath bin said by the first builders of the Church , first , they setled themselues vpon Christ the sure foundation of the Church ; next , they are zealous for Religion , and sorrowfull for the wickednesse of the times ; next , they are contrite and sorrowfull , and repent , and turne to God from their owne sinnes ; and then they are thankfull , and prayse God for all his spirituall favours , and corporall blessings : and all these vertues which they professe , must be in an humble and a lowly minded man , that is indued with all the foresaid graces . They with vs say , he shall be a vessell sanctified vnto honour , meete for the vses of the Lord : therefore Iared the lowly , named his sonne Henoch the holy , which is the signification of his name , and therefore it is sayd , he walked with God : and this he did in a holy conversation of life , as a man dedicated to God , and therefore was taken vp into heaven . Thus we see by the signification of these names , what was , and is the will of God ; wherein they did , and we should spend our dayes , in walking with God in holines , as Henoch did , and the other fathers : and sayth the Apostle , the end of our faith , is the salvation of our soules vnto everlasting life ; and therefore Henoch the holy , nameth his sonne Methusala , which signifieth long life . Thus Henoch being assured of the infinite mercies of God towards him and his seede , by faith still beholding as in a glasse , the redemption by the sonne of God , nameth his sonne accordingly long life : but because men should not thinke , that any here in this world liveth without calamitie , and least outward happines , should make men forget God , Methusala being a Prophet preached of the destruction of the world by the floud , calleth his sonne Lamech , which signifieth strucken or heart wounded ; which sheweth that Lamech , was outwardly afflicted by men , and inwardly afflicted in conscience by the Devill ; and in respect that he being next those times of danger , wherein the world should be drowned , for despising the preaching of the Fathers . And though God throweth consciences downe for a while , with griefe of other mens iust punishment , yet he raiseth them vp againe , giving them hope of his assured promises , and a sweete comfort of eternall life . Lamech being thus strengthened by faith , ayming still to the sentence of salvation propounded in Paradice , calleth his sonne , Noah , which signifieth restorer or comforter . Noah was a figure of Christ , and we doe not reade , that God did speake to any of these ten Fathers , but to Adam the first , and Noah the last of the tenne Fathers , before the floud . He built the Arke a figure of the Church , and therefore he was a figure of Christ , the great builder of the spirituall Church of God . I desire to be as short as I can , and therefore I will here end my discourse of the first age of the Church , in which time all fundamentall truth of religion was taught , which you may conceiue by their significant names , which is the very religion wee at this day doe professe in this particular Church of great Brittaine , and therfore wee are in a true succession , in that which is the life and being of a true visible Church of Christ , and therefore Seniour Philip , I exhort you and all private men , to looke chiefly to the succession of true faith , and doctrine , without which you can haue no hope of salvation , though you haue succession of persons .

Philip ,

Well , haue you done with the Fathers and builders of the Church before the Law , if you haue , then proceede to your succession .

George ,

I remember that one of the Apostles sayth , that God did in times past sundry wayes speake vnto his people , but now at the last , he speakes to vs by his owne sonne : but I will as well as I can , shew first how God did ordinarily speake to his people in the second age of the Church , which is vnder the Law . In the former age of the Church , the word and lawes of God were ordinarily , as you haue heard delivered by tradition : but as I haue said , the liues of men being shortened , their memories were more weake , and therefore the Lord in mercy delivered his lawes and will by meanes more durable , which was by writing ; then he ordained other ordinary Priests , which were successours of the first borne Priests , and these were the Priests of Levie : Numb . 12.21 and this appeareth in the third of numbers , in these wordes : and also the Lord spake vnto Moses saying ; I haue even taken the Levites from among the children of Israell , for all the first borne that openeth the matrix of the children of Israell , and the Levites shall be mine ; and the end was to serue God in the Sanctuary . Now for this ministring tribe Levie , there were degrees among them : for those that came of his son Kohath , were the high Priests ; and those that came of Gershom and Merari , were allotted vnto inferior services , as in this booke largely appeareth : but you must vnderstand that the first borne of the Kohathites , were onely high Priests , as Aaron , and the eldest after him lineally by ordinary rule in every Altar duty , as also onely appointed to enter into the holy of holies , and that once a yeare , these Leviticall Priests , did build the Church of God , vpon the blessed foundation Christ , by the word and lawes of God written , which word and law , was all one with those lawes delivered formerly by tradition , Exod . 19.5 but onely differ'd in the manner of delivery : the Lord did make choise of the Israelits to be his people , as appeareth in the 19 of Exodus , in these words : And now therefore if you will heare my voyce indeede , and keepe my Covenant : then shall you be my cheife treasure aboue all people , though all the earth be mine . Now when the Lord had made choise of his Church , and Pastors to build the Church vpon Christ the foundation ; which builders , were the Leviticall Priests , and those were the ordinary builders all the time of the Law . The Lord also raised extraordinary builders , which were the Prophets , which were the expounders of the Law , who prophecied also of the Messias to come : and those Prophets did denounce from God , the Iudgements which he threatned against the contemners and breakers of his lawes : they spared none , neither priests , nor people , no , nor the Kings and Rulers , as Eliah told Ahab ; Thou and thy fathers house , doe trouble Israel , and the Prophet Nathan told David the King , Thou art the man : now as God had made choise of his Church , and appointed Pastors and Teachers to build the Church vpon Christ the foundation , so also he gaue them lawes , to frame the severall soules of the Church , for his spirituall building . These lawes were of 3 sorts , Morall , Iudiciall , and Ceremonial : Exod . 19.16.17.18 . First , for the Morall law , with what Maiestie and terror , was it delivered ; as in thundring and lightning , and in a thicke cloud vpon the mount , and the sound of a trumpet , very loud , so that all the people were afraid , and the mount Sina was all on a smoake , because the Lord came downe vpon it in fire , and the smoake ascended as the smoake of a furnace , and all the mount trembled exceedingly . Now if the Law were delivered with such Maiestie and terror , what shall become of contemners of this law , and of those that breake this law , and teach men so to doe , as your Pope , Math 5.19 . and Church of Rome doe most fouly , as ( God willing ) you shall heare hereafter . Now I pray you hearken a little , what I shall say of the Morall law and the Gospell together . God cals the Israelites out of Egypt , and willeth them to heare his law in these words , God spake all these wordes saying , I am the Lord thy God , which brought thee out of the land of Egypt . In the first sentence , you haue the Gospell taught in these words , thy God ; for by this is vnderstood the redemption by Christ : for though God in respect that he is the Creator , is God both of the wicked , and the vngodly , yet he never calleth himselfe the God of the wicked : hitherto is all the law referred , for all the prophecies in Christ are yea and Amen : this entrance to the Law by the Gospel , is exceeding necessary , for seeing if wee behold the infinite Maiestie of God in our weakenes , there is no cause but of trembling and feare . It pleaseth God in the face of thy godly Redeemer , to shew himselfe favourable , and reconciled , whereby we may approach with boldnes . Now I say , God gaue also Iudiciall lawes , for the politicall government of the common wealth of Israell , which Iudiciall lawes , were some ceremoniall , some morall , or naturall : as they were ceremoniall , they ended at the death of Christ ; but as they are naturall , or morall , they binde alwayes to the ende of the world . Now the Magistrate might doe nothing , but that which he knew to be the will of God , and therefore he was to stand before the high Priest , who shall aske counsell for him , by the iudgement of Urim and Thummim before the Lord , at his word they shall goe out , Num . 27.28 . and at his word they shall come in , both he , and all the Children of Israel with him , and all the Congregation : and this wee also hold and teach , that our King and subordinate Magistrates vnder him , may doe nothing for the government of the common wealth , but by consulting with God , to know his will by his word . And thus farre we are in a true succession of the ancient Church .

Philip ,

Now I pray let me heare your iudgement of the Ceremoniall Law , and what the Iewes Church were taught by it .

George ,

I answere , that the Iewish Church were taught by Moses , the redemption by Christ , and this he did by the Ceremoniall Law . First , of the Tabernacle , there were two places , 1 The Holy , 2 The Holy of holiest , the holy was called the Sanctuary of the world , and the holy of holiest , did represent the state of heaven , it is sayd in the Epistle to the Heb : Heb . 9.1.9 . Heb . 10.1 . That the law was the shadow of good things to come : and the shadowing law , was the ceremoniall law , as is plaine to be perceived by this 10 Chapter : within the Holy of holiest , was the Arke of the covenant of God , and it was covered , and the covering was called the mercy seate , which figured Christ , who is our propitiatory or mercy seate , to cover our sinnes : Over the mercy seate , were the forme of two Angels , having relation to the Angels that kept the way to the tree of life , to shew that none were worthy to come into the Holy of of holiest , but Aaron the annointed of the Lord , who likewise figured Christ , both in name and office : in name , for a learned man of ours , sayth that Aaron signifieth Christ , which in English is annointed , and in office , by entring once for all , into the Holy of holiest : for it was the high Priests office once every yeare to enter into the Holy of holiest with bloud , of this David speakeh , When he commeth into the world , meaning Christ , he sayth , Sacrifice and burnt offerings thou wouldest not haue , Psal . 40.7 . but a body hast thou ordained ; in the beginning of thy booke , it is written , that I should doe thy will O God , then sayd I , loe I come . And thus you see how the redemption of Christ , was taught by Moses . Now to teach the Israelites the way to Christ the Messias , God appointed divers sacrifices , some to be offered vp directly , for expiation for sin : and secondly , some for testifying due thankefulnes vnto God , for favours received . Those sacrifices for sinne , are all those , which brought with them effusion of bloud , and sprinkling of the same : these all , doe figure the bloud of Christ , which should be shed , for the forgiuenes of sinnes , and this is clearely set downe and proved by the Authour to the Heb : Now the sacrifices that were offered , were of cleane beasts , Heb 9.7.11.12 13.14 . signifying that Christ that was to be offered once for all , should be of absolute perfection : It were too tedious to enter into discourse of the divers particular sacrifices , for sinnes of Princes and Rulers , Priests and particular people , and for the whole congregation , all which did figure out Christ Iesus , who by his death , and bloudshedding , did offer himselfe to the father , as a perfect sacrifice well pleasing to God , for the sinnes of the world . Now the Altar that sanctified his offering , was his Deity , the sacrifice which hee offered , was his humanity , and the Priest that offered this acceptable sacrifice , was both natures vnited in one person , Christ both God and man , and thus in briefe as well as I can , I haue shewed you the ceremonies vnder the Law , which taught the Israelites the Messias to come .

Philip ,

And what Law else , had they to direct them in holy life , religiously towards God , and in iustice towards man ?

George ,

I haue shewed you before , that they had Iudiciall lawes , for their civill governement . And also the Morall law , which is a perfect rule of righteousnes , which no meere man did ever perfectly performe , but Christ the Messias , ( being perfect God and perfect man ) hath perfectly performed it for all penitent beleevers . And this he did , first , by the inherent holines of his nature ; secondly , by his actiue obedience of his life : thirdly , passiuely in his suffrings ; and therefore the Law sheweth vs , what we could haue done in our state of Innocencie , and it sheweth vs what we cannot doe , now in the state of corruption , and therfore it is now a schoole-master , to driue vs to Christ . Now the two resemblances of the heavenly and earthly sanctuary , are a glasse for vs to behold Gods glory in . The heavens resembled by the Holy of holiest , are the heavens of God , where he is most specially present : and the Holy , resembleth the Church on earth , where he is present amongst men . In which there be creatures , cleane , and vncleane ; the cleane , to represent the godly ; the vncleane , the wicked of conversation : and as trees , and all other creatures , differ one from another , so doe the manners of men : and God made beasts , fish , and fowle , to expresse the affection of mens mindes , and gaue liberty to beasts , fish , and fowle , to eate vp one another ; but to man , he gaue a Iustice among themselues , and taught them a civill life , by eating of cleane beasts , and forbiddeth grosse behaviour in forbidding to eate vncleane beasts , fishes , and fowles . This distinction of cleane beasts , fishes , and fowles , from vncleane ; was appointed by Moses law ; to distinguish the Iewes , the people of God , from the Gentiles , who were not the people of God , but Heathen . The vncleane beasts forbidden , were Hogs and Dogs , Conie and Hare , Dawe and such like : to shew that we should not be like Hogs , to wallow in the mire of our vncleane conversation ; nor like Dogs to returne to the vomit of our former impieties , but hold on in the newnes of a sanctified life , nor like Conies , whose nature is to vndermine : but to deale faithfully with our neighbours ; that so our conversation may appeare before men , as we may glorifie our father which is in heaven : nor like the Dawe or Crow , which peereth with his eyes , for we ought not to be curious , in looking to other mens faults , but striue to mend our owne , Math 7. as our Saviour Christ teacheth in the Gospell , Thou that spiest a mote in thy brothers eye , first pull out the beame out of thine owne . And of the rest of vncleane beasts , fishes and fowles , something in life is taught to be eschewed , for the lawfulnes , and vnlawfulnes of eating them . Now there is no doubt , for Christ hath broken downe the wall of seperation , and wee may now freely vse any of them . But the equitie of the same law remaineth still , for the law of God , is eternall . All the cleane , were such as chewed the cud , and parted the hoofe ; as Oxe , Sheepe , Goate and Hart , and such like ; to teach vs that we ought alwayes to be meditating of the workemanship of heaven and earth , and the rdemption by the sonne of God : painefull in our vocation , as Oxen ; meeke as Sheepe ; hardy as Goates vnder the crosse of Christ ; and swift to good with the Hart ; that our bodies might be a cleane tabernacle , holy , and vndefiled , fit for the Holy of holiest to enter in ; so should we be clothed with Aarons white garment of perfect justice , and in our bosome retaine the precious Iewell of Urim and Thummim , that is light of the knowledge of Christ , and perfection to embrace the same . Thus you see that the Law and all the Ceremonies thereof ; the Tabernacle , and all the appertenances thereof ; Aarons office and attyre , are all to be applyed to the redemption by Christ , the equitie of which Lawes , we in the Church of Great Brittaine , doe preach and professe , and therefore we are the true Church and succeede the true Church .

Philip ,

Well let me heare what you can say of the doctrine and Religion , taught in the Church , in the new Testament , and how it succeedes the doctrine of the Church of old , both before and vnder the law , and what Pastors succedes for the building of the Church vpon Christ the foundation , which must continue from his ascention into heaven vnto the end of the world .

George ,

First , therefore I say that the ceremoniall law vpon the comming of Christ , is disanulled , as is plaine , in the 7. to the Heb : in these words , Heb . 7.18.19 . For the commandement that went afore , is disanulled , because of the weakenes thereof ; and vnprafitablenes , for the Law made nothing perfect , but the bringing in of a better hope , made perfect ; whereby we draw nearer vnto God , for the end of the law was to bring vs to Christ , by whom , we draw neare vnto God . Now that the Priesthood of Aaron , is changed , as also the law : looke the 12 verse , the Leviticall and Aaronicall Priesthood , is vtterly changed , and Christ become our high Priest , and is so for ever ; and that not after the order of Aaron , but for ever after the order of Melchisedech . And his priesthood cannot passe to any other , because he endureth for ever : now as Christ is our high Priest , so he offered a sacrifice to the Father for vs , in these words , both in the 40. Psal . and in the 10. to the Heb . Then sayd he , Psal . 110.4 . Heb . 7.17.24 . Loe I come to doe thy will O God : hee taketh away the first , that he may stablish the second , by the which will , we are sanctified , even by the offring of the body of Iesus Christ once made . As Christ is our eternall Priest and sacrifice , for the appeasing of the wrath of the Father , due vnto vs for our sins , so also he hath a perpetuall care of his Church . Iohn 17.12 . and Christ is the onely Doctor and Master , whom we must heare in the Church . Deut . 18.15 . Act. 3.22 . Christ onely hath satisfied for vs. Mat . 20.28 . and 26.28 . Rom. 3.25 . and many more places , Christ alone is sufficient to salvation . Act. 16.31 . Christ can make to liue . Iohn 11.25 . Christ is the perpetuall Advocate . 1 Iohn 1.12 . Rom. 8.34 . Christ is the Lord of all . Mat . 28.18 . Phil . 2.9.10.11 . Col. 2.10 . What should I say , he is all in all , for the good of his chosen , and therefore it is a fearefull ●●ing in doctrine to derogate from him in any thing ; It is sayd in the Heb : 1.1.2 . Heb . 1.1 2. At sundry times , and in divers manners , God spake in the old time to our fathers by the Prophets ; In these last dayes , he hath spoken vnto vs by his sonne , whom he hath made heyre of all things , by whom also he made the worlds . So that Moses , and all other holy builders , may be faithfull builders , as servants ; but Christ is the absolute Master builder of his Church ; Who is the sonne over his owne house , whose house we are , Heb . 3 5.6 . if we hold fast that confidence , and the reioycing of the hope vnto the end . He is the great Master and Doctor , and Master builder of his Church , as he saith to Peter , and the other Apostles , vpon this Rocke , will I build my Church , so that he is the builder , other builders are but his instruments .

Philip ,

And what Pastors , and builders , Ephe . 4.11 . did Christ send to build his Church , vnto the end of the world ?

George ,

Paul to the Ephe . sheweth in these words ; Christ ascended vp on high , and gaue gifts vnto men , for the building of his Church ; as some to be Apostles , some Prophets , some Evangelists , some Pastors and Teachers : I pray Seniour Philip marke , here are reckoned vp the builders of the Church , & amongst them , your supreame ministeriall head , is left out ; sure if hee had beene ordained by Christ , the Apostles would not haue left him out , being an office of so great weight , as your Church makes him , but more of this hereafter .

Philip ,

Which of these builders , doe your ministers succeede ? surely , I thinke none of them , seing your Church began but in King Henry the 8 his Raigne .

George ,

Surely , our Teachers succeed them all , as they are Preachers of Gods word : our Saviour Christ and his Apostles , and the Prophets of old ; were all preachers of Gods word , and in this our Pastors are their successors , but they do not succeed Christ as he is the Messias ; neither doe our Pastors succeede the Apostles in their Apostolicall office , for that dyed with them , and so did likewise the Prophets . But in breaking the bread of life , by preaching every way both in season , and out of season , and in this to haue a care of their flockes , whereof the holy Ghost hath made them overseers , herein they succeede the former preachers .

Philip ,

This is strange to mee that there should be Pastors to preach , that never had calling , and never were sent to preach , I pray tell me , can any preach except he be sent ?

George ,

Truely indeede they cannot , For no man taketh this honor to himselfe , Heb . 5.4 . Iohn 1 6. Mat . 10.16 . Rom. 8 15. Iere . 23.21 . but he that is called of God , as was Aaron , and it is said of Iohn Baptist ; There was a man sent from God : and our Saviour saith to his Apostles , Behold I send you ; and the Apostle Paul sayth , How can they preach , except they be sent ? And the Prophet Ieremy , reproveth such , as runne before they were sent .

Philip ,

Well , you say truth , and hence it is that your Ministers are no Pastors , because they cannot proue their calling to be a true calling .

George ,

Our Pastors haue a lawfull calling , as they haue proved , and I my selfe will make it manifest anon .

Philip ,

But I pray you haue they an inward or an outward calling ?

George ,

I answere they haue both .

Philip ,

An outward calling must either be immediately by the voice of Christ , as was the Apostles , or mediately by the hands of the Church .

George ,

They are called of God by the Church , for it is he that giveth Pastors , & Teachers , for the confirmation of the Saints .

Philip ,

If they be called truely , then they must deriue their authority , by lawfull succession from Christ and his Apostles , if they doe so , let them shew their descent .

George ,

The Ministers of our Church of great Brittaine , receiue Imposition of hands , in lawfull manner , from lawfull Bishops , endued with lawfull authority , and their calling is ordinary .

Philip ,

Your Bishops themselues , whence haue they this authority ?

George ,

They receiued it from God , by the hands of such Bishops , as went before them .

Philip ,

But your first reformed , whence doe they deriue their succession ?

Philip ,

I will a little speake of the first conversion of this land , and then speake some-what of those which were the Instruments , which Christ did vse for its convertion , & then shew the succession of our Ministers lineally , from those first converters . First , I say it is a thing cleare , that our Countrey of Great Brittaine , received very anciently the Christian faith , as I perceiue , by the booke of succession , written by a learned and reverend Divine of ours , named Master Francis Mason ; who hath there in , recited many Fathers and Historians , that haue written of the Brittaines receiving the Christian faith , in the very spring of the Primitiue Church , their names are these ; first , Theodoret ; and before him , Saint Ierome ; and before him , Saint Chrisostome ; and before him , Athanasius ; and before him , Tertullian ; and before him , Origen ; and to all these , ( the sayd M. Mason sayth ) agreeth that which Polidore Virgil bringeth out o Gildas , the most antient writer of our Nation . That Brittaine , received the faith , from the first springing of the Gospell : so that at the very dawning of the day , to vs th●t were in darkenes , and in the shadow of death , the everlasting light appeared , and the sonne of righteousnes did shine vpon them . The barren wildernes of Brittaine , became a fruitfull garden , and was graciously watred with the dew of heaven : And thus it was in part fulfilled , which was foretold in the Psalmes , I will giue thee the Heathen for thine inheritance , Psal . 2.8 . and the vttermost parts of the earth , for thy possession .

Philip ,

I haue heard that your Countrey of Great Brittaine , haue beene anciently converted to the faith of Christ 3. times , and that by 3. Bishops of Rome ; as first , by Saint Peter : secondly , by Eleutherius : thirdly , by Pope Gregory : and that Saint Peter came hither in his owne person ; and Eleutherius and Gregory by their Legates .

George ,

Nay , what if it be proved that the Brittaines were Christians before the Romans : our learned M. Mason sayth , that your Pastors doe proclaime every where , that Peter was the first founder of the Church of Rome ; but when came S. Peter first to Rome ? Baronius saith , in the yeare of Christ , 44. being the second of the Emperour Claudius . Now let vs consider when our Iland first received the sweete Influence of the Gospell ; and here we will follow Gildas , who was the most antient Historian of our Nation , and for his wisedome , was surnamed Sapience , and for his devotion , and eloquence , may well be termed , the zealous and golden mouth'd Gildas : this Gildas , declareth , how those frozen Ilands , farre remote from the visible sunne , receiue the glittering beames of Christ Iesus , the invisible sonne . In the time of Tiberius Cesar , which is the more remarkeable , because he professeth in the same place , that he pronounceth it vpon sure grounds , and certain knowledge . Now Tiberius died in the yeare of Christ , 39. according to Baronius ; whereupon it followeth that the Brittaine received the Gospell fiue yeares at least , before either Paul or Peter came at Rome , by which it is manifest , that our first conversion , is not come from Rome .

Philip ,

Well , I thinke it false what you say ; for Brittain was converted thrice by those which came from Rome , and it is the opinion of our Divines , and especially by father Parsons proved , that the Apostle S. Peter , was the first converter of the Brittaines to the Christian faith .

George ,

Well , we are now come to those which were the converters of this Nation . I know by Mr. Masons booke , that some hold that S. Peter , some S. Paul , some Simon Zelotes , some Aristobilus , and some Ioseph of Arimathea , and that you amongst you hold it the best opinion , that S. Peter did first convert our Nation . It seemeth that many of the Apostolical men , were here in Brittaine in the Primitiue time . But we cannot make it an Article of faith , which of them did first convert this Land , yet it is more probable , that the Apostle Paul , rather then the Apostle Peter , did first convert this Nation to the faith , or Simon of Canani , both which were Apostles , and had commission not from Peter , but from Christ immediately ; and verily that S. Paul was here , is a point not without probabilitie ; for he was the Apostle to the Gentiles . In labours abundant , in perils often , and that by Sea . He was a starre swiftly gliding from East to West ; a herauld proclaiming the acceptable day of the Lord . But we are of opinion , and thinke it is most probable of all , that Ioseph of Arimathea , who was sent hither by Philip the Apostle out of France , with ten others of his companions ; and this Ioseph was the first that did convert our Nation to the Christian faith , and he did obtaine a place here of the King , where he and his company did reside , as in a Monastery ; which place to this day is called Glassenbury . This was that Ioseph which buryed the blessed body of our Saviour Christ in his Sepulchre , in his garden . He afterward became a Preacher of the Resurrection ; In Glassenbury he poured out his pretious oyntment , and all Brittaine was filled with the sweetnesse of the Odour . Now whither he was the first Preacher in Brittaine , we cannot define ; But if he were the first , then the first converter came from Arimathea , and not from Rome , being sent by Philip , and not by S. Peter .

Philip ,

Now let vs conferre of the second conversion of this Nation , vnder Pope Elutherius , and King Lucius .

George ,

This is not to be called a conversion of our Nation , but rather a new supply of Preachers , and further propagation of the Gospell . All the severall orders of your Priests , let them beat their heads together , and they shall never be able to proue that the Gospell and faith of Iesus Christ , was ever since wholy extirpated out of this Island , since the first plantation in the Apostles times .

Philip ,

It may be , the faith was professed by some private Christian● , but not by the King , nor any induced by his authoritie ; for himselfe , he was not a Christian , but sent vnto Pope Elutherius , that by his commandement he might be made a Christian .

George ,

In that he wrote his Epistle to that purpose , you may see the motion proceeded from his owne breast , and not from the Preaching of Elutherius ; he was already made a Christian by the Baptisme of the spirit , and was desirous to be made so by the Baptisme of water ; he had already entred himselfe into the schoole of Christ , & sought meanes that his whole kingdome might follow after , which argueth that his soule was sanctified with grace . It is truth by History , as it seemes to me , that King Lucius did send to Elutherius , Bishop of Rome , one Elvanus , who was brought vp at Glassenbury , and who did disperse through the wide fields of Brittain , those first seeds of the Gospell sowne by Ioseph . It is recorded by history , that Elutherius made Elvanus Bishop of Brittaine , and one Meduinus , who went to Rome with Elvanus , Doctor , to Preach the faith of Christ through the whole Island ; which sheweth that when they were sent Embassadours to Elutherius , they were no Novises , but profound Divines , and practised Teachers in the Schoole of Christ , as they are termed by one of your owne Historians , as Mr : Mason saith . Thus it appeareth that there were learned Preachers , which had sowne the seeds of the Gospell through the whole Island , even at the time of Elutherius sending .

Philip ,

You and your Church are vnthankfull , and vnwilling to acknowledge your obligation to Rome .

George ,

We acknowledge a singular blessing from thence d●rived vnto this Nation ; for Eleutherius sent Fugatius and Donatianus , otherwise called Domiranus , by whom joyning with Elvanus and Meduinus , Christian Religion was advanced . Then King Lucius was baptized , and many of his people ; that the Druides were removed , and in their roomes Christian Preachers placed . Thus Idolatry was dispoiled of her prop ; and Dagon did fall downe before the Arke of Israell .

Philip ,

Were not all these Bishoprickes erected , or at least confirmed by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome ?

George ,

I answer ; when the King desired to receiue the Romane lawes , the Bishop returned this answer , That there were alreadie in Brittaine the old and new Testament , out of which by the Councell of his kingdome , he might take a law to governe his kingdome and people ; for he was the Vicar of Christ in his owne kingdome . And as he did not interpose himselfe in matters temporall , so neither doth it appeare that he did in matters spirituall or Ecclesiasticall . He sent not one Preacher into Brittaine , before he was entreated by the King . Neither doe we finde , that he assumed to himselfe any authoritie , in erecting of Bishoprickes ; neither did that age ascribe it vnto him , as you shall see in Mr : Masons booke of succession of Bishops , where it doth more largely appeare .

Philip ,

And what say you to their conversion by Austin , who was sent hither by Pope Gregory , and made Bishop of Canterbury .

George ,

He was sent I grant , but he did not lay the foundation of the Church , but built vpon another mans foundation ; for there were at his arrivall in Brittaine seaven Bishops , and an Archbishop , professing the Christian faith ; and about 2000. Monkes in the Monastery of Bangor .

Philip ,

They were Brittaines , but S. Austin layd the foundation in other places of the Land .

George ,

Not so ; for the Scots received the Gospell even before the Preaching of Paladius , as Master Masons booke will shew you . The Pikts which were more Southern , received it afterward by Ninianus , a Brittaine borne ; and the rest of them , inhabiting the high Northern Mountaines , and cragged clifts , were converted by Columbus , an Irish man .

Philip ,

Yet Austin converted the English , called then the Angles .

George ,

The Angles possessed the kingdome of Northumberland and Mercia . Northumberland was converted in the dayes of King Oswal , by the ministery of Aidon a Scot . And Mercia vnder King Penda , who being desirous to marry the King of Northumberlands daughter , could not enjoy her but vpon this condition , That he and his people should become Christians , by which occasion he first attained to the heavenly truth , wherein he was exceedingly delighted aboue all earthly joyes . So he was brought to Christ by meanes of his blessed Bride , and was baptized by Finanus , one of Aidons successors .

Philip ,

This Island being thus devided , the Iutts which flourished in the kingdome of Kent , received the water of life first from Austin . From whom also the golden streames were derived vnto the Saxons .

George ,

We acknowledge to Gods glory , that he and his , converted thousands , yet dare we not say , that they layd the first foundation in Kent . For in Canterbury , in the Regall Citie , even when Austin arrived , there was a Christian Church , built in the time of the Romanes , dedicated to the memory of Saint Martin , whither Berta the Queene descended from the bloud royall of France , with Lathardus a Bishop her Chaplaine vsually resorted to divine service . So it is most likely , that Lathardus the French man , had layd some stones in the foundation , before the comming of Austin , therefore is he that first layd the foundation , the converter of the Kingdome of Kent , and not Austin , who came after , and built vpon the foundation formerly layd . I wish your Romish Priests would imitate Elutherius , and Gregory , and Austin , sent by him ; for Elutherius did not obtrude any vpon the Kingdome , but onely sent at the Kings request , and Austen , comming from Gregory , did not steale in secretly , but stayd in the Island of Tennet , vntill such time as he knew the Kings pleasure ; neither offered he to Preach in Kent , before the King gaue him and his fellowes licence : they came not in disguised ; they lurked not in corners ; they brought no Bulls in their bosomes to discharge subjects , or to depose Princes . But their proceedings towardes their Prince , were Christianly , honestly , and orderly . They came to plant the faith of Christ , your Priests come to supplant it . They to preach obedience , you to teach rebellion . Their gospell was a gospell of peace , you arme the subject against his Soveraigne , they conuerted people , yours pervert them . They sought to build the Church , yours seeke the ruine of the Church and Common-wealth . I hartily wish them to consider , what great difference there is betwixt them , and Austin . Thus I haue breviated some part of Mr. Masons booke , to shew the succession of the pastours and builders of our Church , from the Apostles to Austin his time .

Philip ,

And can you shew your succession from Austin , till the time of your pretended reformation ?

George ,

It is a thing confessed by your owne Priests and writers , that the succession of Bishops , from Austin till Cranmor , who was our first Bishop in the reformation , was a true succession , and that according to the Cannon of the Church , and also that Cranmor himselfe was Cannonically consecrated , and that by the command and authority of Pope Clement , in the yeare of our Lord and Saviour Christ . 1532. The ninth of the Calendes of March , and the sayed Bishop Cranmor vpon the said commission from the Pope , was consecrated Arch-Bishop of Canterbury as followeth . Thomas Cranmor .

Consecrated the 30. of March , 1533. and in the 24. of Henry the 8. by 3. Bishops , viz. Iohn Lincolne . Iohn Exon . Henry Asaph .

Philip ,

Admit he were a lawfull Arch-Bishop , yet he was a principall cause of all those lamentable alterations , which happened in the dayes of King Henry the 8. and Edward the 6.

George ,

Doe you call them lamentable ? but I say they were a gratious beginning of thousands of blessings , both to the Church , and Common-wealth of England . But I pray you let me aske you one thing , haue you not heard or read , that it is the opinion of your divines , that a Bishop , being rightly ordained , he can never lose his power of being a Bishop , nor his power to ordaine others .

Philip ,

Yes I know that it is their opinion , that no schisme nor heresie , nor evill conversation of life , can take away his power of being a Bishop , nor his power of giving orders to others .

George ,

Then you doe confesse asmuch as I would haue you , you say right that Cranmor was a true Bishop , and that he had power to giue orders to others . And according to his office he did ordaine other Bishops , and they had power to ordaine others accordingly . This power hath successiuely continued in our Church most truly according to the Cannon of the church , to this very day ; for Cranmor was ordained by authority , from the Bishop of Rome , by three Popish Bishops , and he being Metropolitane : by the assistance of other Bishops , did ordaine other Bishops all the raigne of King Henry the eight . And when the happy time came , of Gods mercifull providence and goodnesse to this Nation , that there should be a more perfect reformation in King Edwards dayes , the Idolatrous Priesthood was taken away . Yet such Bishops as were ordained in King Henryes time , by Cranmor and other Bishops assistance , as would renounce Popery , were still Bishops in King Edwards dayes without reordination : and so likewise , some Bishops in King Edwards dayes , that turned to Popery , were received & continued Bishops in Queene Maryes daies , without reordination . And also in Queene Elizabeths dayes , Popish Bishops renouncing Popery , still continued Bishops , without reordination . As for example , I will name one , by name Antony Kitchin , a man more fitt to be a Scullion in a kitchin then a Bishop of soules . Yet I hope God gaue him repencance , because he died in the blessed time of reformation . In Queene Elizabeths dayes , in the fifth yeare of her raigne , this Antony Kitchin , in King Henrys dayes was made Bishop of Landaff , kept his dignities and place in King Edwards dayes , continued the same all the raigne of Queene Mary : and so till the day of his death , which was in the 5. of Queene Elizabeth . This me thinks should giue satisfaction to the conscience of all private men in our Kingdome : That the Church of great Britaine is a true Church of Christ , even by this marke , of which the Church of Rome doth so much glory , I meane the succession of Pastours and Bishops , for we haue a lineall succession of Bishops as well as they ; and even from them , so that if theirs be good , so is ours . And therefore this should stopp the mouthes and stay the penns also of your wicked writters against our Church , especially of that fearefull vilde Libellour . Who saith , that the Protestants haue no faith , no hope , no charity , no repentance , no justification , no Church , no alter , no sacrifice , no priests , no religion , no Christ . What should a man say to him , and the rest ; Intemperat spirits that they are , they doe blaspheame Christ Iesus the blessed Saviour of mankinde , for in his name is our Church of England gathered . They doe blaspheame his Temple and Tabernacle , which he hath pitched amongst vs : even our Church and whole Religion , whereby we are knit vnto God . If they of malice speake thus , then I say with Michael the Arch-angell , the Lord rebuke them , Iude 9. but if they speake of ignorance , as I hope they doe ; Then I say with the blessed Martyr Steven , Lord lay not this sinne to their charge . Acts 7.60 . Luk . 23.24 . Or our blessed Saviour Christ , Father forgiue them , they know not what they doe .

Philip ,

I will proue anon to your face , that your Bishops of England be no Bishops , but First can you proue this lineall succession of your Bishops ?

George ,

I referr you for proofe , to Maister Masons booke of succession of Bishops , where you shall see the lineall descent both of the Metropolitane Bishops of Canterbury and Yorke , and other Bishops exactly proved by authenticall records of ordination . But I say , this proofe of our succession of persons and place were nothing , if we did not succeed in the saving Doctrine of salvation revealed by the Sonne of God , Christ Iesus our Lord and Saviour , without the blessed truth of salvation , we should bee no better then painted Boxes in Apotcearies shops , which are without good sollid matter in them , or like a faire Casket , whose Iewels are gon . But thankes be to God , we succeed in that which is the essentiall life of a true visible Church of Christ , which is the saving Doctrine of salvation .

Philip ,

What you haue hitherto sayed in defence of your Bishops , to proue the lawfullnesse of them , is nothing , because to the very being of a Bishop : the order of Priesthood , is especially required which is not to be found in the Church of England , and therefore the want of Priesthood over-throweth the very essence of your Bishops .

George ,

I answer if you meane no more by Priests , then the holy Ghost doth by Presbyter , that is , the minister of the newe Testament , then we professe , and are ready to proue that our Bishops and Ministers are such , as they are called , in the booke of Common prayers , and forme of ordering , because they receiue in their ordination , authority to preach the word of God , and to administer the holy Sacraments . Secondly , if by Priests , you meane sacrificing Priests , and would expound your selues of spirituall sacrifices ; then this name as it belongs to all Christians , so it may be applyed to the Ministers , but if you meane by a priest , a sacrificer vnto God , for the quicke and the dead ; whereby the Ministers of the new Testament are Priests properly : and in the Sacrament , he offers Christs body and bloud to God the father , really , properly , or bodily for the remission of sinnes . This Priesthood , and your Masses , for the quicke and the dead , the Church of England condemneth as blasphemous , false , and dangerous deceits . The Church of England teacheth thus according to the Scriptures ; viz. the offring of Christ , once made , is that perfect redemption , propitiation and satisfaction for all the sinnes of the whole world , both originall and actuall , and there is no other satisfaction , but that alone once made : And that Christ offered himselfe but once , looke Heb . 9 15. and verse 10. and that Christ is the onely Priest , having an eternall priesthood , which cannot passe from him to any other , looke Heb . 7.24.25 . And thus I haue proved our Church , by your marke of succession , both of place and persons , to be a true Church of Christ ; but principally by our marke , which is infallible , that is succession of doctrine . Now for our succession of Bishops from King Henry the 8. till this day ; It cannot with honesty be denied , as I haue before declared , and is confessed in generall by one of yours , whose name is Cudsemius , who came into England in the yeare of our Lord , 1608. to obserue the state of our Church , and the orders of our Vniversities ; concerning the state saith he , of ●he Calvinian seat in England , it so standeth , that it may either endure long , or be changed suddenly in a trice : In regard of the Catholike order therein , a perpetuall line of their Bishops , and the lawfull succession of Pastors , received from the Church . Behold he confesseth we haue the Catholike order . Secondly , a perpetuall line of Bishops . Thirdly , a lawfull succession of Pastors , and that derived from the Church : But withall I would haue you to know , that though our Bishops and Pastors received it from the Church of Rome , yet with a double difference . For first , Cranmor and the rest received their orders from Popish Bishops , in a Popish manner , defiled with many popish pollutions ; but when it pleased God to open their eyes , they pared away the pollutions , and retaining that which was good , delivered it to posteritie . So our Pastors succeede yours in their orders not simply , but to farre as they are agreeable to the Scriptures , for the man of sinne did sit in the Temple of God ; and Antechrist had vsurped the chaire of Christ , even in this kingdome , so that then good things & bad were mingled together . Therefore in that which yours received from Christ , our Pastors willingly succeed them . In that which your Bishops received from Antichrist , ours doe renounce and disclaime . Secondly , Cranmor and the rest , received shels of succession , without carnels of true doctrine : for though your Church did giue power to preach the truth , yet being bewitched with Antichrist in many things , it did not reveale the truth : but when God by the scriptures revealed it vnto them , they both preached it themselues , and commended it to posterity . Neither was this by schisme to leape out of the Church , but out of corruption in the Church ; even as the wheat carnell , when it is cleansed , leapeth not out of the Barne , but out of the chaffe .

Philip ,

Well Seiniour George : haue you ended the succession of your Bishops .

George ,

Yes surely , and I thinke in such a reasonable manner , in a weake measure , ( yet truely according to the word of God ) as may giue satisfaction to godly mindes . That our Church of Great Brittaine , is a true Church of Christ , and that none without the sinne of Schisme , being in the precincts thereof , may seperate from it .

Philip ,

Time hath brought vs now , to our Church , the Church of Rome , which is the true Mother Church ; as appeareth by this marke , which never wanted a true succession of Popes and Bishops , since the Apostles times , and especially , since the Apostle S. Peter was their Pope and Bishop , about the space of 25 yeares .

George ,

From whence doe you deriue your succession of Bishops and Pastors ?

Philip ,

From S. Peter the Apostle , for he is the fountaine of all spirituall Iurisdiction , which I will proue by the divine law of Christ himselfe .

George ,

You , nor all the pack of your Iesuites , is never able to conclude this by law divine , I pray let me heare your proofe , that Peter was invested in this right , by divine law .

Philip ,

The Scripture is full of proofes and testimonies , declaring both his lawfull authority , and his due execution thereof . First , for his authority , the promise of the Keyes , and the commission of feeding the sheepe doth proue it directly . First , for the promise of the keyes ; These wordes declare , which our Saviour Christ spake to Peter , I will giue thee the keyes of the Kingdome of heaven ; Mat . 16.19 . Christ gaue him not one , but two keyes , viz. the key of knowledge , and the key of power . First , by the key of knowledge , he was able to open all Scripture and controversies of Religion : Secondly , he had the key of power , and this is of Order and Iurisdiction : by this key , he was able to ordaine Bishops and Pastors of the Church ; and againe to locke them out of the Ministerie , by deposing and degrading as occasion required ; by the key of Iurisdiction , he might open and shut both the outward court , by excommunications , absolution , dispensation , calling generall counsels &c. and the court of conscience , by forgiving and retaining sinnes . In a word , in these keyes , all ecclesiasticall power was comprehended , and given to Peter .

George ,

And is this jurisdiction of Peter , and of his supposed successours a ground and foundation of your religion ?

Philip ,

verse 8. Yes surely , for our Saviour saith , Vpon this rock wil I build my Church .

George ,

I will make a little preamble before I come to dispute , and discusse these points . This is our happines in our Church , that although Sathan , hath greatly prevailed with vs , that many of our Pastours , Governors , and people , haue run into scandall to the great griefe of the godly of our religion , by an vngodly , and dissolute , and corrupted course of life , which haue caused our enemies to blaspheame our holy religion : Yet he hath not prevailed , since the time of our happy and blessed reformation , to be a lying spirit in the mouthes of our Pastours and Prophets : and if at any time he hath prevailed with some private Ministers , to broach any dangerous error , presently he is refelled by the Iudicious and godly Pastours of our Church , and that by the sword of the spirit , which is the word of God , and blessed be God , our Iudicious and wise King , together with the subordinate civill powers vnder him . By the sword of Magistracy , doe joyne with them to the suppressing of such errors , if at any time , they be publikely preached amongst vs. But such is the fearefull estate of the Church of Rome , through Gods just judgment , that Sathan hath prevailed to be a lying spirit , in the mouthes of the most of their Pastours , and that for many hundred of yeares together . And therefore I would wish you Signior Philip , and all private men , to try by the blessed and infallible touch-stone of the written word of God , the spirit of the Church , whither it be of God or not . For you shall finde , that that Church , by the Doctrine thereof , doth oppose the truth of God , revealed by his sonn Christ Iesus our Lord , in many grounds of saving truth , especially by this point of the supremacie of Peter , over the rest of the Apostles . And his supposed succession the Popes of Rome , ouer the Catholike Church , and the whole World . Therefore let vs seriously consider those last recited scriptures , for the proofe of the Pops supremacy , out of which I say , you cannot conclude his jurisdiction .

Philip ,

Marry the place which I last recited was in this words . Vpon this rocke will I build my Church , which words are meant of Peter ; therefore hee is the rocke and the foundation of the Church .

George ,

I deny that Peter is the rocke of the Church , Reue . 11.14 but I confesse that he is a rocke of the Church , as the rest of the Apostles and Prophets were . For the Church is founded vpon the Doctrine of the Apostles , Iesus Christ being the head corner stone . Now I say , that both Peter , and the rest of the Apostles and Prophets , were not in their persons foundation stones , but in respect of their Doctrine and ministry , for Christ himselfe aboue , is the personall and essentiall foundation of the Church , and it is no better then blasphemy to make any other person ; or persons to be the rocke and foundation of the Church . If the Pope wil needs be a rocke or foundation of the Church , let him doe as Peter and the rest of the Apostles , and all good Pasttours doe , viz. Vphold the Church by a constant preaching of wholsome and sound Doctrine , else hee is not so much as a little stone in the building : But this is to hard a taske for him .

Philip ,

Well , what doe you say to those places of scripture I haue aledged for Peters supremacy ?

George ,

I haue told you before , that Christ the sonne of God , the second person in Trinity , being perfect God and man , is the foundation of the Church , and so is , and ever hath beene , and ever shall be the strong foundation of the Church : the Metaphor of rocke and stone , is vsed to shew the strength and everlasting continuance of this , building , the Apostles and Prophets , and all faithfull teachers , are all by their pure and vncorrupted Doctrine ministeriall foundations of this building , and all faithfull Christians are stones of this building : but Iesus Christ is the head corner stone , 1 Pet . 2.5 . 1 Pet . 2 6.7 . Act. 4.11 . which the whole frame of the Church in all ages , did rest vpon . Now I will come to the text you last alledged : There was a question there propsed by Christ , to all his Apostles , and not to Peter alone , whom saith our Saviour , say ye that I am ? This question was answered by Peter , in the name of all the rest : Thou art the sonne of the living God . Wherevpon in the 18 : verse saith our Saviour , vpon this rocke will I build my Church . Now your Church doth vnderstand it of Peter , and ours , vpon the object of Peter and the other Apostles faith , which was Christ to bee the Son of the living God . Now considering that the Apostle hath said , as I haue before related ; that other foundation can no man lay , then that which is laid , which is Iesus Christ , and he being in many places of scriptures called the head corner stone of the Church , and the foundation of the Church ; Then I marvell the Church of Rome , dare interpret it the person of Peter and his successors : doe they not see they make our Saviour an vnperfect rocke and foundation of the Church , when they add to him the person of Peter , and his supposed successors as a supply ?

Philip ,

Well , to the other words of our Saviour , whom say ye that I am ? This question was answered by Peter in these words , Thou art Christ the sonne of the living God : our Saviour telleth Peter that he was happy , and in the 18 : verse , thou art Peter , and vpon this rocke will I build my Church ; and the gates of hell shall not prevaile against it . And I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , and whatsoever thou shalt binde on earth , shall be bound in heaven : and whatsoever thou shalt lose on earth , shal be losed in heaven . These words doe shew that Peter had a greater Iurisdiction and power then all the other Apostles , and therefore he had a supremacy aboue them all .

George ,

I answer that the keyes were given to the rest of the Apostles as well as to Peter ; for the question being proposed by our Saviour , whom say ye that I ? am the answere was made by Peter , thou art Christ the sonne of the living God . Wherevpon Mr : Mason saith , that S. Austin observed that Peter alone made answere for all the Apostles : and his observation is according to the scriptures , which testifieth that Peter before this time had answered in the name of them all . We beleeue and know that thou art the Christ the sonne of the living God . Now as Peter answereth one for all , so Christ said to Peter , Iohn 6.69 . and in him to them all . I will giue you the keyes of the kingdom of heaven . Thus the Fathers interpret the place , as Austin , Peter receaved the keyes together with them all ; & Ierom , they al receiue the keyes ; & Origen , the keyes were common to al ; & Hillary , they obtained the keyes of the kingdome of heauen ; and Ambrose ; what is said to Peter , is said to the Apostles . This consent of the Fathers , should over-balance your opinion against the counsell of Trent . Indeede your Priests and Iesuits , make the World beleeue that you will be judged by the Fathers ; But when it commeth to the tryall , your Priests forsake them . The Fathers must be pretended for a fashion : but your holy father the Pope of Rome , is the very needle and compasse , whereby you sayle . I might further reason with you by Maister Masons booke ; where it is proved both by scriptures , and by Fathers , and by your owne writers , that the rest of the Apostles received their Iurisdiction immediately from Christ , and not from Peter ; But I will giue you some short and invincible arguments to shew you , that the rest of the Apostles had equall power , with the Apostle Saint Peter .

Philip .

Come on I pray let me heare them , me thinkes , you should not dare to doe this , that you doe , being so simple a man .

George ,

I pray God that I may be truely simple and innocent in the Lords cause without deceit . Our Saviour Christ after his ascension gaue gifts vnto men , for the repairing of the Saints , by the worke of the Ministry , and Saint Paul nameth their Offices ; which were some Apostles , some Prophets , some Evangelists , some Pastors and Teachers . I marvell , Ephe . 4.11 . Paul in this place left out the Vicar general ; he that is the ministeriall head , & Christs Deputy of the Catholike Church : Why did he not mention him in this place , it being so fitting , if there had beene any such great office ? Sure here it was meete , that he should haue beene mentioned with his gifts , fitting so great a place , this argueth , surely there is no such office , and therefore wee reject it .

The Second reason or argument is this , Christ is perfect God together with the Father , and the Holy Ghost ; and so he hath Vice-gerents , to governe the world ; as namely , Kings and Princes , and they are his Instruments , for he saith , by me Kings raigne , and decree Iustice : but Christ is also a Mediator of his redeemed ones ; a King of his Church and chosen ones : and in this office , he hath neither fellow nor deputy . For none is capable of this office : if he should haue a fellow , as you in your Religion , make your Popes to be , he should be then an vnperfect Mediator , and he can haue no Deputy ; for what man can ●ee capable of his offices , to doe in the roome and stead of Christ , that which he doth ? because his workes , are workes of a Mediator , which are compound workes , arising of the effects of his two natures , concurring in one , and the same action , both from his Godhead , and from his manhood , and therefore to the effecting of this worke , there must necessarily be required an infinite power , which far exceeds the strength of any created nature . The third reason , may be drawne from his blessed promise , of his blessed presence , Christ saith all power is given vnto mee in heaven and on earth . Goe therefore , saith he to the Apostles , and teach all Nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father , Sonne , and Holy Ghost , teaching them to obserue all things whatsoever I haue commanded you : which is else where , commanded by other phrases ; as feeding his sheepe , and to the worke of feeding his sheepe , and teaching , and baptizing . In the last verse , he saith , Loe I am with you , to the end of the world ; and else hee sayth , where 2. or 3. are gathered together in my name , there am I in the midst of them . Now seeing hee is present in especiall manner by promise , what neede he to haue a Deputy , of an vniversall Iurisdiction , to supply his absence . Ergo , there is no such Iurisdiction nor supremacy given to Peter , and his supposed successors the Popes . Nay in the exercise of the keyes of binding and loosing , and excommunications , the Pastors and Church are but his Instruments , and he himselfe the principall agent . The 4. argument is this , when the sonnes of Zebedeus sued vnto Christ for the greatest roomes of honour in his Kingdome , thinking hee should be an earthly King , Christ answereth them , Ye know , that the Lords of the Gentiles haue dominion , and they that are great , exercise authoritie over them , but it shall not be so with you : Will you heare what M. Perkins saith out of an ancient Father , speaking against one of your Popes , Eugenius by name ; the Father was Saint Bernard , who applyed these wordes to Pope Eugenius , It is plaine , saith Bernard , that here dominion is forbidden the Apostles . Goe to then , dare if you will , to take vpon you ruling an Apostleship ; or in your Apostleship , rule or dominion : if you will haue both alike , you shall loose both , otherwise you must not thinke your selfe exempted from the number of them , of whom the Lord complaineth thus , they haue raigned , but not of me : they haue beene , but I haue not knowne them . It is cleere by that which hath beene sayd , that Peter the Apostle had no power of Iurisdiction over the rest of the Apostles ; nor over the Catholike Church , no further then the rest of the Apostles had ; for they all had equally authority immediately from Christ , to preach , and baptize all nations . Your learned Cardinall Bellarmine himselfe , doth confesse that all the Apostles receiue their Iurisdiction immediately from Christ , and therefor not from S. Peter .

Philip ,

We confesse that all receiue the keyes , but Christ gaue them Peter immediately , to the rest by Peter . So all power both of order , and iurisdiction proceeded from Peter .

George ,

But your learned cardinall by foure arguments proveth , that they all receiued their jurisdiction immediately from Christ ; First he proveth it by these words of Christ . As my father sent me , so I send you ; which exposition hee strengthneth by the authorities of Chrysostom , Theophylact , Cyrill , and Cyprian . By the evidence whereof , he affirmeth that the same things were given to the Apostles , by these words ; I send you , which was promised to Peter by these words . I will giue thee the keyes , and after delivered by these words ; feede my sheepe : And addeth , it is cleare that by these ; I will giue thee the keyes : and by this saying , feede my sheepe ; there is vnderstood a most full jurisdiction even in the outward court . Secondly , he proveth it by Matthias , who was neither elect by the Apostles , nor received any authority by them : But being elected by God , was presently accounted amongst the Apostles ; and verily saith he ; If all the Apostles had their jurisdiction from Peter , that should haue bin manifested most of all in Matthias . Thirdly , he proveth it by Saint Paul ; who professeth that he had his jurisdiction from Christ , and thence confirmeth his Apostle-ship ; Gala . 1.1 . verse 15. for he saith , Paul an Apostle , not of man , nor by man , but by Iesus Christ . Gal: 1.1 . verse 15. And that he might declare that he received no authority from Peter , or any other Apostle , he saith ; When it pleased God which had seperated me from my mothers wombe : and called me by his grace , to reveale his sonne in me , that I should preach him among the Gentils . Immediatly I communicated not with flesh and bloud ; neither , came I againe to Ierusalem , to them which were Apostles before mee . But I went into Arabia , and turned againe to Damascus , then after 3. yeares I came againe to Ierusalem , to visit Peter . And againe hee saith ; To me those that seemed to be some-thing , conferred nothing . Fourthly and lastly , he proveth it , because the Apostles were made onely by Christ , and yet had jurisdiction ; As appeareth . First , by Saint Paul , Excommunicating the Corinthians . Secondly , by the same Paul , making Ecclesiasticall lawes . Thirdly , because the Apostolike dignity , is the highest dignity in the Church ; wherefore it is evident , that the rest of the Apostles received not their power of jurisdiction from Peter , but from Christ . Thus you may see what a dangerous thing it is to receiue Articles of faith from the Church of Rome ; yea , though they seeme to produce them out of scripture . Much more when shee vrgeth articles of faith of her owne hatching without scripture . Therefore we that are private men , had neede to be carefull to try all things , and keepe that which is good ; as the Apostle adviseth , least we be deceived .

Philip ,

I doe not thinke that Bellarmin did say all this against the Iurisdiction of Peter .

George ,

I referre you to Master Masons booke of succession , the 4. booke : the 149. page where you shall in the margent see Bellarmines booke cited for the proofe thereof . But let vs proceede ; admit that Peter had such a prerogatiue by the divine law of Christ , what is that to the Pope ?

Philip ,

I answer that the Pope is the successor of Peter ; Therefore what power soever belongeth to S. Peter ; doth so to the Pope .

George ,

Was not S. Peter an Apostle ? Can there be succession in the Apostle-shipe ?

Philip ,

Our Doctor Stapleton teacheth , that of the Apostle-ship there is no succession .

George ,

Then the Pope doth ill , to adorne himselfe with Apostolique titles ; his Sea Apostolique , his Legat Apostolique , his Pardon Apostolique , his Seale Apostolique , his Bull Apostalque , and all Apostalique . Thus you see by his lying titles , what manner of head hee is of the Catholike Church ; what a misery is this to the Church ? Yea , his office is an Apostle ship , Causes must be heard by his Apostle-ship ; Weighty matters must be reserued to his Apostle-ship ; Bishops must visite the Threshold of the Apostles , vnlesse they be dispensed withall , by the Apostles , and that is by the Pope . I will say no more , what Master Masons booke relates of his wicked titles , but this I will say out of his booke ; that we hope , God will raise such Angels in our Church , as he was in the Church of Ephesus : Of whom it is written , that he had tryed them ; who say they are Apostles and are not , and had found them lyers . Before we proceede any further in reasoning about the power of the Pope , I will shew you wherein the Bishops and Pastours doe succeede the Apostles , and wherein they doe not . For this I would haue you consider with me , that in the Apostles , some things were extraordinary , and some things ordinary . They had 4. Extraordinary prerogatiues . First , they were Immediately called by Christ himselfe . Secondly , they had an vnlimited commission , to teach and baptize all nations . Thirdly , they had an infallible direction by the Spirit , both in preaching and in writing that they could not erre . Fourthly , they had power to worke Myracles . All which were necessary for the first planting of Churches , but were not all conveyed to posterity by succession . Other things they had , which were necessary for the Church in all future ages ; in which they had successors . As first , they had power to minister the word and Sacraments ; wherein every private Minister succeeded them . Secondly , they ordained ministers , executed censures , and other things belonging to the government of the Church , wherein every Bishop succeeded them ; so that in the latter , the rest had successors as well as Peter . In the former , the rest of the Apostles had no successors : no more had Peter .

Philip ,

Well , whatsoever you haue sayed , I will proue in Peters practises , his Iurisdicton aboue the other Apostles , and the Pope hath succeeded Peter , in the exercise of his supremacy ever since ; That Peter had iurisdiction more then the other Apostles , is manifest by the third Synod , held at Ierusalem , in the yeare of Christ 51. Where indeede Saint Peter shewed himselfe . For he spake first and last , and S. Iames , and all the rest yeelded to his sentence .

George ,

Not one of all these points is true but false , I pray obserue , that Peter spoke not first , is cleare by these words ; when there had Bin much disputation , Peter rose vp and sayd ; and that he spake not last , Act. 15.7 . verse 12.13 . & 20. appeareth also . For the text mentioneth no speech of his but one ; after him spoke Paul and Barnabas : and then Saint Iames ; and the Counsell concluded the matter according to the word of Saint Iames , yea , according to a speciall point , not mentioned by Saint Peter ; neither were the acts of the Counsell set out in the name of Peter , but a Synodall Epistle was sent from them all ; neither did Saint Peter subscribe vnto it ; I Peter , the Vicar of Christ , the Prince of the Apostles , the visible head , and ordinary Pastor of the Church ; but he was onely put in amongst the rest , in these words ; It seemeth good vnto the holy Ghost and vnto vs. Where is now his supreame authority ? verse 28. If ever he should haue challenged it , this had bin the time ; this was the place : especially seeing he was present , not by his legat , but in his owne person . If now he had challenged it ; his successors for ever might quietly haue enjoyed it . What did he meane thus to forget himselfe , and to prejudice posterity ? And as the Apostolicall Synods received not their authority from him , so neither did the Apostles themselues , severally considered ; as is evident in Saint Paule , excommunicating the incestuous Corinthian ; see by what authority he did it , 1 Cor . 5.3 . I verily saith Saint Paul , as absent in body , but present in spirit , haue determined already as though I were present , that he that hath so done this deede in the name of the Lord Iesus Christ , you being gathered together , and my spirit with you , with the power of the Lord Iesus Christ bee delivered vnto Sathan ; He saith not the spirit of Saint Peter : but my spirit ; so that your visible head , had neither hand nor foote in this action . Saint Paul acknowledgeth neither subordination vnto himselfe , nor derivation of authority from him . And as he had jurisdiction , so had Timothy & Titus , to receiue accusations , and to commaunde them not to teach any other Doctrine ; If they did , to stop their mouthes . 1 Tim . 5.19 . 1 Tim . 2 3. Titu . 5.1.11 . All which places , are to be expounded of Iudiciall proceeding in the consistory , and argue a jurisdiction in Titus and Timothy , which so farre as we can learne , they received from Saint Paul , and not from Saint Peter ; Wherefore we conclude , that Saint Peter was not the onely fountaine vnder Christ , of spirituall jurisdiction by the Law of God ; but the twelue Apostles , were twelue fountaines , all equally derived from Christ Iesus , the fountaine of fountaines ; but that is nothing to the Pope : If Peter had such prerogatiue by divine law .

Philip ,

I tell you the Pope succeeded Peter , not as he is an Apostle , but as he is the ordinary Pastor of the Church .

George ,

Then he succeeded not Peter in all his right , but haue not other Apostles successors also ?

Philip ,

No , for theit authority was extraordinary , and therefore temporary and died with themselues , but his ordinary ; and therefore perpetuall , and liveth in his successors .

George ,

I haue shewed you , what was extraordinary in the Apostles , and dyed with them ; and what was ordinary and liueth with their successors .

Philip ,

This I know , that the Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the government of the Church .

George ,

You dare not say that this power in Peter was extraordinary , for then it could not goe by succession ; and if it were ordinary in Peter ; Why not in the rest , seeing as hath binne proved ? Christ gaue as large a commision in as ample wordes to the rest , as to Peter : but if we should faigne that Peter had such Monarchicall jurisdiction ; By what Law shall the Pope succeede him in it ?

Philip ,

The succession of the Bishop of Rome , into the Popedome of Peter , is of Christs Institution ; and therefore by Law Divine .

George ,

Of Christs institution , where , or when ? If you alledge these wordes , feede my sheepe ; they were spoken onely to Peter , yet so that the substance of the precept was not proper to him , but common to all . And if I should demaund of you wherewith should Peter feede the Sheepe and Lambes of Christ ? Is it not with the sweete pasture of the Word of God ? And the Commission given to all the Apostles ; to t●ach and baptize all Nations ; What should they teach all Nations ? Was it not the same word of God , expressed in these words . Teaching them to obserue all things whatsoever I haue commanded you ? Are not the words of Christ revealed in the Scriptures ? The keys of the kingdome of heaven which were delivered to all the Apostles , by which they should lock out all impenitent sinners , and open by their ministry of the same words , the dore of eternal life to all beleevers and true penitent sinners , and doe they not all by the ministery of the same word , bind all vnrepentant and vnbeleeving sinners , vnto the eternall punishment , and also by the same word , ministerially absolue and loose the beleevers , and true penitent sinners , from all their sinnes and punishments due ? This sheweth the substance of these words , and feede my sheepe ; is common to all the Apostles , but if we should imagine that Christ did institute a Monarchy personally in Peter , how commeth it to be locall ? this certainely can not be Christs institution , because he nameth no place .

Philip ,

It was in Peters power never to haue chosen to himselfe any particular Sea , and then after his death , neither the Bishop of Rome , nor the Bishop of Antioch had succeeded , but hee whom the Church had chosen .

George ,

Then you make it locall by Peters choice , and not by the law of Christ .

Philip ,

Was not Peter Bishop of Rome ?

George ,

So men say , but you cannot proue it by the law of Christ , which is the divine law of God .

Philip ,

Will you denie a history so famously recorded by Eusebius , and other ancient Authors ?

George ,

We doe not deny the history , but must wee make humaine histories , the ground of our faith ? If the history be true , which yet I take to be vntrue , if it say that Peter was Bishop of Rome , about 25. yeares , as your Church makes the world beleeue : for Peter was an Apostle , and his commission with the rest of the Apostles was to preach , teach , and baptize all nations , and had no commission to fixe himselfe in any Sea , or Bishopricke , for my owne part , I haue no skill to looke into histories , for I haue no gift of tongues , neither haue I any translated into our vulgar ; but a learned iudicious Pastor of ours , hath sayd in his publicke ministery , that those histories which are alledged by your men , were written about 300 yeares after Peters time , and not by any Author that lived in his time . Therefore those historians might haue false relations , and therefore a fearefull thing it is , for the Church of Rome to draw out of those histories , articles to serue their owne turne , and so impose them vpon the people of God , as grounds and principles for them to relie their faith vpon : therefore Seniour Phillip , I would heartily wish you , and all private men to be carefull of such doctrines , and articles of faith , which cannot be proved by the word of faith , which is the Scriptures ; though what-soever Church , or man , or men , of what note or eminency soever , they be in the Church , or in the world , that will vrge them vpon you : For I remember a saying of S. Austin , worthy of speciall note , and it is that all articles of faith necessary to be beleeved , are plainely set down in the Scripture ; but of Peter being a Bishop , and Bishop of Rome , Nay , that he ever came at Rome , is neither plainely set downe , nor concluded thence by necessary consequence .

Philip ,

It was in Peters power to haue continued at Antioch , and then without doubt , the Bishop of Antioch , had beene his successor , but because he translated his chaire fixed it at Rome , and there died , thence it comes to passe , that the Bishop of Rome succeeded him .

George ,

If the succession of place , depend vpon the fixing of S. Peters chaire at the place of Rome , what shall be sayd of ●●e Popes , which kept at Avinion , in France , the space of 70 yeares , as your owne writers testifie , and all that time , never came at Rome . Now this is to build vpon the fact of S. Peter , and not vpon the law of God ; a fearefull case , that the Churches faith , must depend vpon such fond devises , that cannot be proved by the word of God . I say that Rome cannot proue by any promise of Christ , that the Church and truth of God , should be perpetually fixed there , if ever there were any Church that might alledge succession of place ; it was Ierusalem : for the Scripture saith thereof . The Lord will dwell for ever in this Temple , ● Chron . 33. ● . 5 . ●sal . 132. ●2 . 13.14 . ● Psal . 78. ●erse 69. and againe I haue chosen and sanctified this house , that my name may be there for ever : but the promise is conditionall , If thy children will keepe my covenant , and my testimonies that I shall teach them : and therefore when the Prophets reproved them , and the Priests alledged nothing else but this , The Temple , the Temple , the Temple of the Lord ; See what the Lord sayd in answere to them : ●erem . 7.4.26 . Trust not in lying wordes , saying , the Temple of the Lord , but amend your wayes and your workes . So Rome was once a holy City , but the Lord is almost vtterly departed from it , for their grosse errors , and wickednesse . Our Saviour Christ saith , Desolation shall sit in the holy place ; And the Apostle Paul sayth , ●ath . 24.15 . That Antichrist shall sit in the Temple of God : what should we trouble our selues any further about so palpable an error ? If Pastors haue possest a place never so long ; if they haue not the life of a true Church , it is nothing , and this life is sound doctrine .

Philip ,

Well , let vs come now to our Church , to trie it by our marke of succession of Pastors and Bishops .

George ,

Well , you doe hold that the Popes are Peters successors , and that they haue derived vnto them , the supremacy & cheife Iurisdiction of the Catholicke Church , and thereupon they are the head , and foundation of the Church , and all this is derived vnto them from Peter , the head and Prince of the Apostles .

Philip ,

All these points , we hold to be certainely true .

George ,

How weakely you and your Church , doe maintaine the supremacy of Peter , by the Scriptures ; let God , and all good men judge ; & as for Peters being a Bishop , or his ever being at Rome , or that the Popes the first of them , were his successors : not one of these points , you ( nor any of your Priests for you ) are able to proue them by one word of Scripture , and yet every one that will be saved , must hold them as Articles of faith , and confidently beleeue them , by your Religion : but now for the succession of the Popes in the supremacy , and jurisdiction of S. Peter , there is one history , that will overthrow all the histories they doe bring to proue it .

Philip ,

Alas poore man , you are to weake of braine , and to simple to be a good historian ; But let me heare the story ?

George ,

I confesse I haue no skill in story , but I will alledge it out of an author that had skill , and that had skill to confute your errors ; but it is so , that I will first aske you a buestion or two : which doe you thinke is greater in jurisdiction and power , an Apostle or a Bishop ?

Philip ,

Sure an Apostle is greatest , both of Iurisdiction and Power .

George ,

And is the Pope any more then a Bishop ?

Philip ,

No , he is but a Bishop , but he is the prime Bishop of all others in the World , and none in the world , did ever enter into the office of a minister in the Catholike Church , either in the highest or inferiour places , since the death of S. Peter , but by the authority of the Popes , his successors ; neither did or ought to exercise their office in the Catholike Church , but by his authority .

George ,

This fancy is easily overthrowne ; I pray was not S. Iohn an Apostle ?

Philip ,

Yes indeede was he ; but what of that ?

George ,

Was he not called by Christ immediately ; and had the jurisdiction of an Apostle immediately from Christ ?

Philip ,

What of all this if we grant vnto it ; what doth it preiudice vs , and advantage you ?

George

Thus it advantageth vs , and preiudices you ; For it overthroweth your Popes supremacy . But I will aske you another question ; did not Saint Iohn exercise his Apostle-ship , which hee received from Christ immediately , all the time of his life ?

Philip ,

Yes no doubt of it , for all the Apostles held their office and executed the iuri●diction of their Apostle-ship , all the time of their liues ; what inferre you therevpon ?

George ,

Then thus I conclude , that after Peters death , there was long a greater jurisdiction in the Church ; then Peter conferr●d vpon his supposed successors the Popes , for they were but Bishops as you haue confessed ; and the Apostle Saint Iohn lived long after Peter the Apostles death , and exercised his Apostle st●ps juridiction during his life . Saint Iohn the Apostle of Christ ( as Saint Ierom saith and witnesseth vnto vs ) lived 68. yeares after the passion of Christ ; and consequently dyed in the yeare of Christ , 101. Which according vnto Baronius , one of your owne writters , was in the ninth yeare of Clement , who was the third Pope after Peter . Now Saint Iohn by this account , vsed his jurisdiction of Apostle-shipe , which was the greatest , spirituall jurisdiction vnder Christ . All the time of Linus and Cletus , and to the ninth yeare of Clement ; which plainly overthroweth your opinion ; that the Popes were the greatest in jurisdiction over the Catholike Church after Peters death . But let me aske you a question , did S. Iohn lose his Apostle-ship after the death of Saint Peter , and was glad to light his candle againe from Linus , and after his death , from Cletus ; and after his , from Clements ? If this be so , then there was after the death of Christ whilst an Apostle lived , a greater jurisdiction in the Church , then the jurisdiction of an Apostle , which cannot be . Tell me Signiour Philip , did Saint Iohn renue his Apostolicall jurisdiction from the grant of Linus , Cletus , and Clement ? Tell me , why doe you not tell me ? Me thinkes you stand as one holding a mad Dogg by the eares , which neither knowes how to hold him fast , nor yet to let him goe .

Philip ,

Though I cannot answer it , yet there are of our religion which can confute and confound you in this point , and him from whom you had it .

George ,

I know there are of your Religion which will endevour to doe it , if they can ; but alas they cannot . By sophistry they w●ll endevour to make truth falshood ; but truth cannot be ashamed nor overthrowne , with all the devices of sophistry they can devise : No , not if the Devill the father of lyes consult with them .

Philip ,

Well , now we come to the succession of Bishops and Pastors in the Church ; I will proue the Church of Rome , to be a true Church of God ; and this marke for the Church of Rome , hath had a true lineall succession of Bishops from the Apostle S. Peter , even till this very day . For the Pope of Rome that now is : hath in a true lyne succeded them all ; therefore the Church of Rome that now is , is the true Church of God . Therefore all Christians that will be saved , must submit themselues vnto her , to be their spirituall mother .

George ,

I know you all bragg of suceession of place and persons , but as for succession of Doctrine , which is the life of a true Church , what is become of that ? I do grieue for that , because I cannot finde that in the Church of Rome ; for that is almost quite extinguished : and that little which remaineth , is so obscured by Devillish humaine inventions , that I can scarce perceiue any life in her . But for your braggs of place and persons , it is but as the shell of a nut , when the divellish Wormes haue eate out the kernell ; or as a faire Casket , when the Iewells are stolne ; but come , Who was Peters immediate successor ?

Philip ,

Why that was Pope Linus , who was Pope of Rome next vnto S. Peter .

George ,

But you cannot proue this by Peters Doctrine in his Epistles , nor in the Apostles Acts , nor in the Epistles of any of the other Apostles ; therefore not to be beleeved as an Article of faith , and vndoubted truth . And as for the histories of it , they are vncertaine ; for the Popes decrees say , Clement was his next successor ; and Eusebus say , Linus . And as it is vncertaine which was his first successor , so it is vncertaine , when Peter came first to Rome . For Orosius saith , ●eter came to Rome in the beginning of Claudius raigne : And Ierem , in the second yeare , others in the fourth yeare , others in the 13. yeare ; and Damasus saith , he came thither in Ner●es raig●e . So that there is no certainety in that , which they make an vndoubted principle . There was once a Woman-Pope , whose name properly was Gilberta , a Dutch woman of Ments or Maguntia , which is contrary to the Scripture ; which permitteth not a Woman to beare rule in the Church of God . If she were , as the histories report , Pope , then they were no Popes and Pastors which she did ordaine ; and their orders were meere Nullities . Then what can all them , that haue succeeded her since , be ; but meere Lay-men ? For she being a Woman , could not be Pope or Bishop : For shee was vncapable , either to receiue or giue orders . So hauing nothing to giue in matter of orders , those which she ordained received nothing ; so all the Bishops which haue succeeded lineally since her regency , had no power consequently to giue orders one to another . What man of true sanctified judgement , will rely his soule vpon the beleefe of so dangerous an Article , that all the Popes since Peters death , were true Popes , and heads of the Catholike Church ?

Philip ,

But our Church doth deny , that there was any such Woman , Pope , because that histories , where such a woman Pope is recorded , were made 2 or 300. yeares since such a woman Pope should be , and therefore vncertaine ; and there vpon they vtterly deny , that there was any such woman Pope .

George ,

I haue heard that they vtterly deny that there was any such Pope , vpon the ground you speake off ; but the Woman being made Pope , was named Pope Iohn , and was in the ranke and catologue of the Popes ; but now they haue spunged her out in their best endevours . But I thinke they cannot but must needes haue her in the ranke , or else the linkes of your succession will breake . A learned Divine of ours saith out of your owne authors , that there was in Rome a schisme held 39. yeares , one Pope against another ; at length the counsell of Constance , put downe those false Popes ; and to another gaue the Popedome . This must needes be granted , that during the raigne of those false Popes , there was a breach in your succession . I reade that in the yeare 1083. and 1058. and 1062. there were 2 Popes together ; I reade also that Benedict the 9. Silvester the 3. and Gregory the 6. were Popes all at one time . And at an other time , Benedict the 13. a Spanish Pope , & Gregory the 12. a French Pope , and Iohn the 23. an Italian Pope , all together ; what manner of succession is this , thinke you ? Therefore it is no good marke of a visible Church , without succession of Doctrine ; which is the surest and infalliblest marke . Manasses polluted the Church , and violated Iustice : and yet he succeeded good Ezechias his father ; and Iosiah reformed the Church , and renued the lawes ; yet was Grand-child to , and succeeded that wicked Manasses . The same also may happen in the succession of Prelats in the Church : Againe , if any Church might ever alledge the succession of Pastors , it was the Church of the Iewes , for it was in the house of Aaron ; from Father to Sonne , and none that was out of the same house , might ever sacrifice ; besides , there was a promise made vnto them , that they should continue so for ever . And indeede when the Prophets exhorted them to a reformation , they had this in their mouthes : The law shall not perish from the Priests ; Ierem 18 18. Ierem . 8 8. nor counsell from the wise , nor the Word from the Prophets . But what saith the spirit of God vnto them ? Say not we are wise , &c. The Law of the Lord is with vs , &c. Iere 23 15. Ezech . 7.26 . It is in vaine that we may depend , The scribe is in vaine , the wise men are ashamed ; and seeing they haue reiected the word of the Lord , what wisedome is in them . And againe , the Prophets prophecy lyes : And the Priests beare rule , by meanes of them . And againe , The prophaning of the service of the highest is gon foorth from them . And againe , the Lawe shall perish from the Priests , and counsell from the Ancients . I will end with one text more : the Scribes and Pharises could boast to our Saviour Christ , That they were the seede of Abraham : I know it well , saith our Sauiour , Ioh . 8.33 . & 44. but the Devill is your Father ; as Almighty God said to the Children of Israell : thy father is an Amorite , and thy mother a Hittite . And now to drawe to a conclusion , of our reasoning about succession : Me thinkes by the light of naturall reason , that succession of place and person , should not be a true marke of a true visible Church , without succession of true Doctrine . Take a naturall reason or two , as for example : A filthy trotting Iade , may succeede in one and the selfe same stable , in the possession of one and the selfe same man . A faire through pac't Gelding , to the prejudice of the owner , and them that shall vse him . A wicked man oft succeedeth a good man , in one and the selfe same house and family , to the prejudice of the family ; by his vnlawfull tyrannous vsage . And so a wicked Magistrate , may succeede a good ; as before you haue heard . But if a good Horse , faire and fat , and well pac't , succeede another good before ; there is no prejudice to the Master , nor to any that haue right to vse him : And if a good man succeede a good man in a f●mily , there is no hurt , but joy & comfoat to the family : For the good government is continued , the maintenance of the family is not wasted with the riotous excesse , but rather encreased to the joy & comfort of all . Now I say , if there doe succeede in the Church , wicked Pastors , which doe vnder the colour of personall succession , bring into the Church , poysoned Doctrine of their owne inventing , whereby the poore sheepe of Christ are in danger to be infected , to the losse of Gods favour in their salvation ; Shall the Pastors personall succession excuse their bringing into the Church such wicked Doctrine ? Or shall this personall succession excuse the people for receiving such wicked Doctrine ? What man of reason will thinke it an excuse for either ? No , no , it is the succession of sound Doctrine according to the law of God ; which is the onely thing necessary for all pople to looke vnto in succession : and therefore personall succession , is vaine and wicked to be alledged without it , to bee a true marke of the visible Church of God . I will end our discourse of succession , with some memorable sayings I haue read to be in the Fathers . And first , what saith Nazianzene , the succession of the Sea , hath nothing else but the name ; the true , and reall succession , is that of the saith . And what saith Saint Basill of the Church , which defileth the Doctrine and the Sacraments . It may very well bee said , how is the faithfull Cittie become a Harlot ? And Saint Ambrose , they haue not the succession of Peter , which haue not the faith of Peter . And Saint Bernard saith of the Prelats of his time , those O Lord are formost to persecute thee , that seeme to hold the formost place in the Church : It is a small matter for our Watch-men not to guide vs , except they also destroy vs.

Philip ,

Let vs now come to another marke of the Church visible which doe you thinke fittest to be next vnto succession , for of succession we haue ended our conference ?

George ,

I doe thinke it fittest now to conferre of Vnity , for in our conference of succession , we haue the head of the visible Church , and therefore in course of method , it will bee most meete to come to the body of the Church , which is principally shewed in vnity .

Philip ,

I am of your minde in this , and therefore let vs proceede and conferre vpon this marke of vnity ; another infallible marke of a true visible Church , in the Iudgement of our Divines , And in this you cannot possibly proue your Church to be a true Church of Christ .

George ,

Yes by this very marke , will I ( God willing ) proue this part of the Church in Great Brittaine , a true Church , and yours a false Church , I mea●● the Church of Rome .

Philip ,

I marveile you will be so mad to vndertake a thing so impossible , seeing you are so devided amongst your selues into divers sects ; as some of you be Calvinists , some Protestants , some Swinglians , and some Brownists and the familie of Loue , and others ; can there be a true vnion , where there is such a division ?

George ,

If I should returne the l●ke to you , what sects there be amongst you , and your Church and Religion , as I haue read and heard , it would rather be but contention in both of vs , then godly edifying : but a little I will shew you what sects there be in your Church , as I haue both read and heard ; as that there be some Capucines , some Franciskans , some Dominicans , some Gray , some White , some Blacke Fryars ; as for your Iesuits , and Secular Priests , what divisions and contentions there is betweene them , your booke called the Quodlibets , doth manifestly shew . It is not some division in a Church , that doth vtterly destroy a Church ; for then I suppose there was never any Church visible in the world , since the fall , for there was , and ever will be sects and heresies in the Church , that they that are approved may be knowne : and as for some divisions and contentions in the visible Church , the best may be subject vnto it , seeing men are not perfect in it ; As Saint Peter and Saint Paul did disagree and contend , and so did Paul and Barnabas . Gala . 2.11 . Act. 15.39 . Vnity of it selfe , is no marke of a Church visible , without there be a vnity in one head , and one body by faith and loue , faith that vniteth vs to Christ , and loue , that vniteth the members of the church each to other ; which vnity was in the church of the Iewes in the wildernes , where they all agreed to make an Image of a golden calfe , Exod . 32. 1. Math . 27.22 . they also agreed together to kill Christ , but my drift and my poore meditations haue beene , how to edifie you in your owne markes of the church , and therby to shew you , and all ignorant Papists how cunningly the Devill hath deceived your church and all people adherent to the same , by causing them to disioyne these , which are the essentiall , true , and infallible markes of a visible church , from those accessary markes of the church , I meane the true and publike ministration of the word and sacraments , from succession , vnity , antiquity , and the rest . I doe purpose therefore to shew you , the true vnion ; of the which true vnion , we doe hold , and then descend to discusse your vnion .

Philip ,

I perceiue you are very arrogant and proud , that you will discusse our vnion , but runne your race and proceede .

George ,

Then thus I proceede , First , I say as I haue formerly sayd and proved , that Christ is the head and foundation of the church , and that the church is his body . Also I haue proved that the holy Ghost , which is the spirit of God , doth vnite this body the church to Christ the head , and this I proued by the 1 Cor . 12.13 . and that it is his body , I proved further . 1 Cor . 10.17 . and the 2 Cor . 11.2 . and many more . Now the church on her part , doth vnite her selfe vnto Christ her head by faith , as appeareth in Ephe . 3.17 . Ephe . 3.17 . in these words ; He dwelleth in our hearts by faith . Now those that are properly and indeede vnited to Christ , by the spirit and faith , are members of the invisible church , which is properly his spirituall body . And I come now to speake of the vnion of the visible church of Christ , where as I haue formerly said , there must be a distinction made , betweene the visible and the invisible church , for the invisible church , is properly and indeede vnited to Christ , but the visible in all the parts thereof are vnited to Christ onely by outward profession . A man that makes outward profession of vnion with Christ , may be properly so indeede , but wee cannot certainely know it , but charitably so conceiue , therefore I say that it is the outward profession , and outward preaching of Christ , to be Lord , foundation , and head of the church , that maketh the visible church : and by this externall profession , & ministration of holy things , are we in the church of Great Brittaine , vnited to Christ our head , and by these we hold vnion with al the visible parts of the church in the world . If we consider in briefe the whole doctrine of our vnion with Christ , as first , the efficient cause thereof , Gods free election . Secondly , the effectuall vocation vnto the Vnion . Thirdly , the spirituall vnion it selfe by the holy Ghost . Fourthly , the vnion by faith , take it as your church define faith ; which is to beleeue the word written is true : or as we define a justifying faith , which is to apprehend and apply the promises of grace in Christ by faith : in all these points , both for the beginning , and the continuance of this vnion both with Christ our head , and also the members one with another in faith and loue , we hold I say this vnion , as purely by our doctrine , as any Church in the World , and therefore by this marke , we are a true church of Christ .

Philip ,

We of the Church of Rome , are the true church of Christ , but ye doe not hold vnion with our church , therefore by this marke of vnion , you are no true church of Christ , but heretickes and schismatickes .

George ,

We hold vnion with you so farre forth , as you hold vnion with Christ . The church is catholike , and Christ is the head thereof . And it being catholike , is not tyed to Rome . The good wheat-corne being threshed , doth flie out of the chaffie eare , but not out of the Barne : even so wee flie from your chaffe , and drosse of false doctrine and heresie , but not out of the catholike church ; and this shall suffice , to shew that by this marke of vnity , our church , is a true part of the visible catholike church .

Philip ,

Now I will by this marke of vnion proue our church to be the true church ; for the Scripture sayth , there shall be one Shepheard and one flocke , and the shepheard is the Pope , who is set vp as a ministeriall head , and the flocke , is the whole Catholike Church . And this church is but one , and is sweetely vnited vnto this head in one faith : therefore the church of Rome , is the true catholike church , by this marke of vnity .

George ,

This is my answere , First , that whereas you set vp a ministeriall head , which you doe , you shall never proue it by Scripture . E●he . 4.12 . For the ministry is dispersed amongst the Pastors , and no in any one head . Secondly , I answere , by this one ministeriall head , your Church did rob Christ of his soveraignty and honour , because in setting vp this ministeriall head , they steal things from him , proper to him alone , as the priviledge to forgiue sinnes properly , and the power to governe the whole earth , by making of lawes , that shall as truely binde the conscience , as the law of God . Thirdly , for your head , why , there was sometimes 3. at once , as you haue heard , all of them striving for the Popedome ; therefore there was no vnity , in the very head of your church . And it is cleare to me , and I would to God in his mercy t' were so to you , and to all private Christians , that your Church hath set vp a false head , and in many parts of their doctrine a false faith , to vnite them vnto this false head . And as for that one pastor that you speake of , it is Christ Iesus , the shepheard of shepheards , who is the onely proper Pastor of the catholike church , both of Iewes and Gentiles .

Philip ,

You speake falsely , for we haue set vp no false head , nor no false faith , but are truely vnited vnto a true head , and that by a true faith .

George ,

Well well , Seniour Phillip , as you and all private men loue your owne salvation , and loue to free your selues from eternall condemnation , be carefull to ground your selues truely , by a true faith vpon a true foundation , which is Christ our Saviour ; and vnite your selues also by true faith , vnto a true head , which is Christ alone , and none other . But I will proceede further to shew you the want of vnion , even in the very heads of your Church . I reade that about the yeare 886. and about the yeare 892. There was greate dissention amongst the Popes , the heads of your Church . I pray harke what followes , I read that Pope Steven the sixt abrogated all Formosus his predecessors decrees : and after he was dead and buried , tooke vp his body , cut of 2 fingers of his right hand , and buried him againe in lay habite . I read that the following Popes , Theodorus the second , Romanus and Iohn the 10. confirmed all Formosus his Acts. I likewise reade , that after all this , Pope Sergius disanulled their Acts : and tooke vp the body of Formosus , and cast it into the river Tiber . Doe you not see , What goodly vnity there was here amongst your heads the Popes ? I will shew you the like want of vnity in the whole body of your Church . It is the opinion of your Church , and I thinke it is true ; that the whole visible Church is represented by a generall councell . The first Nicen councell allowed Priests marriage , and the Communion in the Lords supper , in both kindes both of bread and wine . But the councells of Constance and Basil , forbad the laitie the cup . And the councell of Trent , forbids both the cup to the laitie , and marriage to the Clergie . I also reade that the third counsell of Carthage , that none should be called vniuersall Bishop : But now the councell of Trent curseth him , who shall deny the Pope of Rome , to be the head Bishop of all the World . Againe , I reade that the generall councell of Constantinople over-threw Images : And I reade that the second councell of Nice , decreed them to be worshipped : And I read that the councell of Franckefort vnder Charles the great , determineth it to be Idolatry ; and curseth the sayed Nicen councell . I reade also that there was a great controversie in Anno. 1476. betwixt the Franciscans and Dominican Fryers , touching the conception of the Virgin Mary , whither she were conceived in sin or no : the Dominicans held she was ; the Franciscans the contrary : But Pope Zistus the 4. Ioyning with the Franciscans , 4. of the other were condemned & burnt at Rome .

Alph. de Castro . Chap. 6. holdes the Pope Inferiour to the councell , the opinion of the Iesuites &c. This day is he aboue the councell . I reade that about the Eucharist , they haue a world of differences amongst themselues ; as whether Christ did consecrate when hee blessed the bread and the wine , or when hee said this is my body . Secondly , whether so much bread as is taken onely , be consecrated ? Thirdly , whether the substance of the bread be turned to nothing , or changed into the substance of Christ ? whether there be a bodily motion in the Sacrament . Whether the body of Christ , in the Sacrament can be touched ? how the accidents in the sacraments are without a subiect ? whether the accidents can be broken , whether they can nourish ? whether the water mingled with the wine , be turned into Christs bloud ? whence come wormes in the host ? Thus you see what diuisions & dissentions there are , amongst you , both in your Popes councells , and severall orders of Priests . Is this the vnity you bragg of ? Sure your vnity may be rather called a Conspiracy against Christ , then a vnity vnder him . Herod and Pilate were made freindes , against Christ should be crucified ; and they joyned in the execution of him : So all of you , whatsoever your dissentions and discordes bee amongst your selues , even in matters of faith , yet in this one maine Article of your faith ; that the Pope is head , and hath a supremacy over the whole Church of God ; Herein you must needs concurre and agree , though in my poore Iudgement , the most weakly maintained , of all other points controverced betweene you and vs. For this point , ( as I remember ) Bellarmine saith is the head of faith : and for the denyall of this , all must lose their dearest blood , though they maintaine Christ to be the supreame head never so purely : Iewes shall liue in their bosome , even in Rome , vnder the Popes nose , though they vtterly deny Christ : this is a fearefull case , and this is a wicked vnion .

Philip ,

Now let vs proceede to another marke , which we say , is a marke of a visible Church .

George ,

Since that we haue ended our conference about the vnity of the visible Church : let vs proceede to the sanctitie of it , for that I thinke is meetest to be next treated of .

Philip ,

I am contented , and therefore as you haue begunne the other markes at your Church , so beginne this : and in this marke , you shall never be able to proue your Church , a Church of Christ .

George ,

Yes surely but I can , by the helpe of God , proue it to be a most holy Church , as holy a part of the visible Church militant , as is any visible part in the Christian world .

Philip ,

I never saw , nor reasoned with so Impotent a man : You will proue any thing for the maintaining of your hereticall church ; if you can ; why doe you not see , are you blinde , that your people both magistrates and ministers , and all soules of subiects , be most vilde in vngodlynes , and doe expresse it in the wickednes of their liues ?

George ,

Surely I confesse with griefe of heart , that the generall multitude of our people , are grievously polluted with fearefull sinnes of many kindes . But what if it might be sayd of vs , as the Prophet Amos sayd of the Governors of Samaria ? Amos 4.1 . You oppresse the poore , and destroy the needy . And also , what if it might be sayd , of our Governors , as the Prophet Esay sayd ? Woe vnto them that decree wicked decrees , and write greevious things : To keepe backe the poore from Iudgement ; and to take away the Iudgement of the poore of my people , that Widowes may be their prey : Esa . 10.1.2 Zeph 3.4 . and that they may spoyle the Father-lesse . Esay . 10.1.2 . And what if it might be sayd of our Ministers and Prophets , that they are light and wicked persons , and that they haue polluted the Sanctuary ? And what if the Lord should call the insensible Creatures , the heavens and the earth , as he doth by the Prophet Esaiah , to witnesse against vs for our rebellion In these words ? heare O Heavens and hearken O Earth , for the Lord hath said : I haue nourished Children , and brought them vp , Esa . 1.2 . and they haue rebelled against me . Yet wee may be a pure Church visible for all that : Because wee maintaine the pure faith and Doctrine .

Philip ,

But how is the Church holy , when it consists of so vilde a crew , you your selues in the Creede , call it holy ?

George ,

Surely I must be faine to catechise you in this , as I haue in the rest of our discourse . You may see how jgnorantly you haue beene bred in your Religion : that you must be catechised in the markes of your owne Church . They tell you that Succession , Vnity , Sanctitie and Holines and others , are marks of the visible Church : But without succession of faith and doctrine , and vnity in faith and doctrine ; and if the visible Church be not made holy by the true faith and doctrine , these markes are but deceitfull , and may guide you to the Church ; whose false wicked doctrine , will teach you rather the way to hell and everlasting destruction ; then to heaven to enjoy eternall happynes and blisse .

Philip ,

Well , I pray proceede , and make no long preambles ; how is the visible Church pure and holy ?

George ,

I am desirous to edifye you , and resolue you in all things , to the power and vnderstanding , God in his mercy hath given me , and therefore I am sure , that the visible Church is pure and holy in two or three respects . I should haue put this in minde , still that you keepe a distinction betweene the Invisible and the visible Church . For the Invisible Church I haue told you , is properly and indeede , the spirituall and mysticall body of Christ : and I haue told you how that that body is perfectly holy , pure and righteous , in the sight of God by Iustification : And in part holy by Sanctification in this life . Now I desire if it were possible , to speake to the capacitie of the simplest amongst you , that you might not be deceived in the purity , holines , and sanctitie of the Church : and therefore now I come to the holines of the visible Church . And I say as before , it is called holy in two or three respects . Now as I take it , the visible Church is holy ; and so called first , in respect of some small remnant that be in it , that are perfectly holy before God by Iustification ; and in part holy by sanctification , I will shew you a prety fitt Similitude , and it is this . Threshers vse when they haue threshed , to put the corne before it be fanned on a heape , and this heape is called corne , although the greatest part be chaffe : Even so the congregation of the visible Church , is called holy , in respect of the small number of holy ones in it : even as the heape is called corne , though most of it be chaffe . The denomination of the word Holy , is of the better part , and not of the greater : for the most are Hipocrites and prophaine Dissemblers . This in my judgement is clearely proved by the Prophet Esaiah : The Churches of Iudah and Israell were visible Churches ; of them the Prophet saith : Though the number of the Children of Israell be as the sands of the sea ; yet shall but a remnant be saved . Our Saviour calleth his , but a little flocke : And he saith , there be but fewe that walke in the narrow way to heaven . So that the Church visible , is called holy in respect of the small remnant of holy ones , which are properly misticall members of Christ : which doe lye hid in the visible Church , from the eyes of men , yet seene to the eyes of God . And thus you see the first reason why the visible Church is called holy .

Philip ,

Well , seeing you haue vndertaken to catechise me , let me know a second reason of it ?

George ,

A second reason why the visible Church is called holy , Is , because God hath committed vnto her , his holy ordinances ; the Word and Sacraments . And for this cause she is called by Saint Paul , the pillar and ground of truth . 1 Tim . 3.15 Not that shee should add vnto truth , any thing that is devised by her selfe : but that she should vphold the truth , herein the world against the Devill and wicked men , who labour to pull downe the truth by their lying and deceitfull Doctrines . A strong pillar in a house doth as you know , beare vp the house and support it from falling in windy stormes and tempestous wether : Even so , doth the visible Church the truth of God , against the windy stormes of hereticall Doctrine : and so against the tempestious lightenings , fiery persecutions by wicked enemies of the truth , except she bee negligent of her duty . A third reason why the visible Church of God is called holy , is , because she spreadeth abroad the holy truth to the World : And this she doth by two wayes ; First , by reading it to the world , and by this she testifyeth as a witnesse , that it is the truth of God . Secondly , she speaketh Gods word by explication : and thus she delivereth the true sence of the word of truth , to the better informing of the Iudgement of the people . And thus also by application , she either converteth to salvation , or else convinceth the consciences of men to their condemnation . The fourth reason , why the visible Church is called holy ; is the externall profession of holynes , and that according to the rule of the holy Word of truth , revealed in the scriptures to the Church .

Philip ,

Now let me see , whether the Church of great Brittaine may be called holy by these reasons ?

George ,

For the first reason , that the visible Church is called holy , for the small number of those , that bee truely holy in it ; I am assuredly perswaded , that the Lord affecting so his owne ordinances , which are the preaching of the Word , and administration of his Sacraments , which haue bin purely performed , by this our Church of great Brittaine this many yeares , since our happy time of reformation ; that hee hath , and daily doth conferre grace in the hearts of such , as he hath ordained to salvation : and that many multitudes , though not the greatest ; which haue receiued the first fruites of their Inheritance ; and are now translated from hence , having all teares wiped from their eyes , are now in rest in their soules , at the right hand of God , with Christ Iesus their head in glory . I am also perswaded , so long as God in mercy to this our Nation , shall hold open the booke of the Gospell of his deare Sonne ; that it may be preached , read , and taught , that many more , from time to time , will be brought to faith and repentance , & consequently to eternall happines and blisse of soule & body for ever ; which God in mercy grant vnto vs. And thus our Church is holy by the first reason .

Now I come to the second reason , why the visible Church is called holy , which is because God hath intrusted her , and committed vnto her keeping , his holy ordinances : And for this cause , she is called the pillar & ground of truth . Now I say , by this reason also , is this our Nationall and particular church of great Brittaine most excellently holy . I beseech you to consider it , for she hath , and doth faithfully discharge the trust reposed in her : For she suffereth it not to bee corrupted , by false additions , neither doth she suffer it to be diminished by repealing any statute , or law of Gods holy Scriptures , which hee hath committed vnto her : but faithfully keepeth it perfect , pure , holy , and entire , as it is in it selfe , delivered vnto her by God himselfe . She also preserueth it by Gods assistance , from wicked enemies , and opposers that labour to invade her , and vtterly to expulse the Gospell of peace from this Kingdome . As for example , In 1588. the Lord from heaven , made the Elements of wind and water to fight for her , to the over-throw of your great Navie , and also the Lord did as it were by Myracle quench the violence of fire , intended by our treacherous domestick bosome enemies , in their Gun-powder plot . And God in mercy hath confounded the manifold other devises , which the enemies of our Church and Gods truth , enviously haue plodded against vs : She is a shelter to strangers of other Nations , who doe professe the same word of truth with vs , and being exiled , flee the greevous persecutions of your Church , or of the enemies of the truth .

For the third reason , that the visible Church is called holy , by spreading it to the world , first , by reading : and thus our Church of Great Brittaine , doth shew her selfe to be a holy and faithfull visible Church . In that she readeth the holy Scripture , not in a strange and vnknowne tongue , for then shee should be a Barbarian to her children but in her owne tongue faithfully translated , whereby her children may by it learne to try all things , and to keepe that which is good , and that they might search the Scriptures ; for in them they thinke to haue eternall life , for they doe testifie of Christ : and that this word of God , should dwell plenteously in her children , and that by it , they should learne to speake graciously : and thus you see , she doth teach her children like a good Christian mother , the language of Canaan the holy tongue . Thus you see our Church is no concealer of the word and scriptures of God , as yours of Rome is : but like a faithfull pillar of truth , spreadeth it to her Children , by reading it vnto them , & suffering them to learne the language of the Scriptures , by reading it themselues . Oh the wonderfull and vnspeakable benefit , that commeth to the people of God , by this liberty of reading the Scriptures ! for this me thinkes , you should affect vnion with vs. And lastly , by explication , doth our church shew her selfe to be holy , in that she doth deliver a true sence & construction of the Scripture , to her children , by Divinity-Lectures , and Sermons , and by this doth shee convince her adversaries ; that by their Secular learning doe oppose the truth of God revealed in the Scriptures : as is evident by the bookes of controversies , written by our learned King , and our learned Pastors against your Church : & also she sheweth her selfe to be holy by application , by vsing the keyes of Gods kingdome faithfully . And this she doth ministerially , by denouncing the terrors , threats , and curses of the law , against all wicked and impenitent sinners , exposing them to the infinite Iudgement of Gods wrath , till they repent and beleeue : And thus she shuts the kingdome of heaven . Againe , she ministerially sets open the kingdome of heaven to all beleeving penitents ; : by applying the blessed promises of grace in the name of Christ , whereby they bee comforted in their deepest distresse of conscence for their sins : And like a holy and loving mother , by her holy ministry , doth share out in holy wisedome , the portion due to every visible Church of hers . Those that are weake , and but Babes ; she giues them the sincere milke of the word of God , that they may growe thereby . And those that are able to beare it , shee giveth stronger meate : For the word of God which she doth administer , is fit for both : her Pastors are wise and able to minister comfort to them which are weary . Shee in example of Christ her head , by her ministry , doth not quench the smoaking flax , nor breake the brused reed . But cherisheth the weake , and confirmeth the strong : and thus I haue shewed you the holines of our Church by the third reason , which is by explication . And now I come to the fourth and last reason of the holines of the visible Church , and that is her externall and holy profession .

Philip ,

In this you may shame to open your mouth to proue your Church to be holy , the liues of men are so wicked in it .

George ,

Truely Seniour Philip I confesse , as before with greife , that the greater number of our people of all sorts in this Iland , and Church , are vile , and prophane ; and I doe thinke , that were it not for the good lawes of our Kingdome , which doe constraine and compell them , to make outward profession , they would many of them make none at all . Their outward carriage in al manner of wickednes , their liues doth apparently shew it so . But what of this , do you thinke that the covenant of God , is broken with the whole ? Our Kings and Queenes , together with our Auncients and fore-fathers , both of the L●●tie and Clergie , together with the people of the land , di● make a covenant most blessedly with God , to purge the land & kingdom of your popish superstition and jdolatry . In King Henry the 8. his dayes it was begunne : In King Edwards the reformation was much more further perfected : In Queene Elizabeths , it still encreased : and in our late most learned King Iames his time , & now still most happily continued . This they haue done in example of the good Kings of Iudea , as Ezekiah and Iosiah , and others . And according to this first reformation , haue we made a profession , and in this outward profession blessed be God , we still keepe covenant with God ; which I beseech our Almightie , and eternall most blessed God , for his blessed sonns sake Iesus Christ our Lord , our Pastors may so doe to the end of the world .

But now to come to our professors , I grant that the greater number of the professors of our Religion , may be but formall ; & that they doe professe for wrong endes and by-respects , as to avoyde the Penalties of our civill Lawes , and our Ecclesiasticall censures . And againe , for the prayses of men , for that they would bee counted good Church-men : And to avoyde the scandall of prophanes , and because they thinke it safest to doe as most doe : and many doe make the out-ward profession of Gods truth , to be a meanes , the better to bring to passe their projects of deceipts ; and too many doe make their out-ward profession as figg-leaues to cover their inward hipocrysie . The established visible churches , were never without such bad professors : For where God hath his Church , there the Devill will haue his Chappell : If not by heresie , yet he will haue it set vp by deceiptfull hipocrysie . Thus farre of our worst professors , and now to our better . These be those that are out-wardly better reformed : First , a man may discerne them by their company , for they will shunne the company of such as are in their liues prophane and vnreformed , and wil associate themselues with such as are vertuous and godly . They avoyde the first , for feare of defilement by tentation to evill : and they encline vnto the other , because they would haue their spirits quickened vnto good . And for their habit in apparell , it is modest , nor greedily taking vp every vaine new fashion ; as is the manner of our vainest and prophanest professors , and of many of your gallantest Romane Catholikes . Neither is their apparrell costly aboue their rankes and callings , but rather vnder ; avoyding superfluities , both in apparell , diet , and other ordinary expences , whereby they may the better enable themselues for pious , godly , and charitable expences , as God by his providence , shall call for it at their hands . Their behaviour is gratious , vertue is seene in their very Counteenance , their speech is not scurrilous and Wanton , but for the most part gratious vnto edification allwayes : the holy tongue and language of Canaan is frequent amongst them . All mens tongues by nature , are set on fire of hell ; but Gods grace hath so prevailed with them , as to quench their tongues , with the waters of vertue : In a word , we haue in our Church , such professors , as doe avoyde all appearance of evill ; and which doe keepe them-selues vnspotted of the world , and without the reach of iust exception of any . They are godly , giving attendance at the dore-posts of Gods house , to heare his Word , that they might learne from Gods Word , rules to direct them in the carriages of their liues . And they there , in a holy joynt-communion , with the congregation , offer vp their praises and prayers , in the name of our blessed Mediatour Christ , for whose sake , they and their sacrifices , are accepted of God , being offered in faith . And for the sacraments , which be Instruments and signes , and seales of salvation , they conscionably frequent them often : and this their holy and righteous life , is not according to the lawes or rules of humane Invention , but according to the rules and lawes of God , revealed in the Scriptures . Now I say , though many may in our Church make glorious shewes to the World , of sincerity in their profession , and yet be deceitfull hypocrites : yet I am perswaded assuredly , that we haue multitudes that are true Nathaniels , Israelites , in whose hearts ( as they are sanctified ) is no guile : whose outward profession doth proceede from pure hearts , good consciences , and faith vnfained ; and in the conversation of their liues , haue a due respect vnto all the commandements of God , walking honestly in all things , and hating the garments spotted by the flesh . And thus I haue proved our Church of great Brittaine , to bee a true and holy church , by your mark of holines . Nwo let vs try yours by it also .

Philip ,

Now let me shew you the proofe of our Church by this marke of holines , to be a true Church : As first there be holy men admirable for holines . Secondly , there is a holy sevice . Thirdly , holy Ceremonies . Fourthly , holy sacrifice , holy sacraments , and lastly , holy dayes .

George ,

Now let me shew you how holy your Church of Rome is , I will beginne at the head and fountaine thereof your Popes , for so you take them to bee : And looke what the head and fountaine is , such must needes be the body , and streames that flowe from such head and fountaine . I will beginne with Pope Marcellinus , of whom I reade that he sacrificed to the Idols of the Painims . I reade that Pope Alexander the 6. poysoned Gemes the great Turkes brother , committed to his custody . I reade that one Pope Hildebrand , hired one to kill the Emperour . I reade that Pope Iohn the 13. committed Incest with his two sisters : and I reade that he was wounded in adultery . I reade that Pope Alexander the sixt , lay with his owne Daughter . I reade that Pope Hildebrand , was a Sorcerer . I read that Pope Silvester the second , gaue himselfe to the Devill , to be Pope . I read that many others were Magitians , as Iohn the 21. and Benedict the 9. &c. Againe , I read that Pope Alexander the 6. cut off the the hands and feete of one Mencinellus , because he wrote against his filthines . I reade that Pope Iohn the 13. cut off the hands and noses of divers Cardinalls . I read that Pope Sergius the 3. kept another mans wife , her name was Marozia , wife to one Guido . I read that his Bastard came to the Popedome , his name was Pope Iohn the 11. or 12. I read that Pope Sixtus the 4. graunted liberty to the whole family of the Cardinall of Saint Luce in the three hoat moneths , Iune , Iuly , and August , to vse Sodomy : At the foote of the licence was written , be it , as it is requested . I read that every common Harlot in Rome , paid a fee to Pope Sixtus the 4. Thus , that whereas you condemne our Churches of vnholines , & therefore it could not be in your opinion by this marke a Church of Christ . What should one thinke of your Church , that hath such vngodly a head and fountaine ? Now seeing there is such wickednes in the head of your Church , I will shew you the wicked errors of some of your Popes . First Liberius an Arian , secondly Anastatius the second Anastasian , thirdly Honorius a Monothelit , condemned by the Roman Councell vnder Adrian , fourthly Hildebrand , threw the Sacrament into the fire , sixtly Iohn the 22. derided the Gospell held the soules to be mortall , and was therefore by the Councell of Constance called a Devill incarnat , sixtly Leo the 10. to Cardinall Beambus , calleth the story of Christ a fable , seuenthly , Iohn the 13. called the Devill to helpe him at Dice , and dranke to him . Now I will shew you , what I reade of the filthines , of the principall part of the body . I reade that one Gallus Senonensis , wrote about 400. yeares agoe , that Sathan was let loose at Rome , to destroy the Church . I read that Thomas Becket a Romish Saint , acknowledged the common proverbe to be true , that there is no right at Rome . I reade that the Bishop of worcester a Papist told Philpot , that he thought the wickednes he saw in Rome , made him an Heretick . If the head-Pastor , and head-City of your religion , be thus defiled with so wicked behaviour , what is the whole body of your professors ?

Philip ,

Well , your writers who thus informe you , abuse our holy Fathers the Popes , and our holy City of Rome . I would you would renounce your Heresie , and travell thither ; you should then bee an Eye-witnes , of the holines there , how it doth abound : And then you should know , how you are deceitfully abused by your writters .

George ,

As for my errors , I will renounce them , if you can shew me them : But I suppose , you can shew me no error heerein . And as for my travell to Rome , I feare I should behold there ; ( should I goe thither : ) greater abomination , then any yet I haue heard off : and I know already , that there is prepared Fagot and Fire for me , except I will betray the Lords truth , and deceiue my owne soule , by wicked equiuocation . But to returne to the seeming holines of your Church of Rome , whereby you would proue it to be a pure and true Church , for your holy service . I marvell what your Church meaneth to haue it in Latin , and not in the Vulgar tongues ; whereby the people might acquaint themselues with the holines thereof ? But Sathan being an old Polititian , hath prevailed with your Church ; to hide your sevice in an vnknowne tongue from the people , that they should not spie out the blasphemous filthines of your service . Let me shew you a little in part , your vnholy and corrupt service . God in the Prophet Esaiah saith : He will not giue his honour to any other . Esa 48.21 . And this is a great honour to God , to flee vnto him onely by prayer : there is neither Commandement nor promise in the scripture , that if wee doe pray vnto Saints , we shall be heard : vpon which two , every lawfull prayer must bee built . I meane , vpon a Commandement and promise , what saith Saint Iames ? Iam . 1.5 . If any man lacke Wisedome , let him aske it of God , and it shal be given him . And what saith Saint Paul ? Rom. 10.13 Whosoever shall call vpon the name of the Lord , shal be saved . And who is the Mediator , by whom we must pray ? Is it not Christ alone , and no other . For what sayeth the scripture ? There is one Mediator betweene God and man , the man Christ Iesus . And therefore what saith our Saviour ? What soever you aske my Father in my name , he will giue it you . Againe , what saith our Saviour ? Come vnto me , all yee that are weary , and heavie laden , and I will ease you . Vpon the Saints dayes in your Church , in their prayers , still these words come in : That by their merits , wee may haue profit ; and by their requests , we may be delivered . Thus they derogate from the mercy of God , and the gloryous merits of Christ , as if his were not sufficient . This one place of Esay , me thinkes should convince their prayers to the Saints departed , if they would acknowledge it ; The words are , doubtlesse thou art our father , though Abraham , be ignorant of vs , and Israell know vs not . If Abraham the father of the faithfull , be ignorant of vs ; so is all the rest of his Saints : therefore in vaine to pray vnto them . And for your daily sacrifice of the Masse , it is a blasphemous Idole ; for Christ offered himselfe , a most perfect sacrifice : Heb 9.15 . Heb . 10 20. With which God was well pleased . And this he did but once for all . You adore a peece of bread , when it is carried in procession , for though it were true that the bread in the Sacrament , were turned into the body of Christ : yet the Sacrament being ended , it must needs returne to the former nature . What a fond thing is it to make prayers for the dead , because there is no certainty of their estate ? And they salute the Crosse saying , all haile O Crosse , our onely hope &c. Increase righteousnesse to the godly , and giue pardon to the guilty . And you pray the Virgin Mary , to pray the Father , charge thy Sonne , commaund by the right of a mother : they say that Saint Francis , could saue all that should liue after him , to the end of the World , through his merits , from everlasting death . Looke 1. Timo : 2.5 . and that place proveth that there is but one Mediator , as there is but one God . I reade that the forme of the absolution , to penitentiares runneth thus , the passion of Christ , and the merits of the blessed Virgin , of Saint Peter , and Saint Paul , and of other Hee , and Shee Saints , be vnto thee for remission of sins . What vngodly , and vnchristian divinity is this ? I reade that whosoever readeth the Cannon of the Masse , shall there see , a world of idle & ridiculous ceremonies . I read that they say indeed they haue the forme of the Masse , by the traditions of the Apostles . But the truth is , that it was now a peece , and then a peece patched vp by their owne Popes . As first , Sixtus the second brought in the Sanctus : Innocentius first , brought in the Pax : and Leo , the 1. added this clause : a holy Sacrifice , and vnbloudy Host . Gelasius , brought in the Prefaces , and Collects , and Gradualls . Simmachus , the gloria in Excelsis : Agapetus 1. Processions , Pelagius , 2. the 9. Prefaces before the Cannon . Sergius 1. brought in Agnus dei . Gregory 1. confesseth , that one Scholasticus made most part of the Cannon . Thus you may perceiue that there is not written in the fore-head and outward profession of your Head Pastors , and Church Holines vnto the Lord . But rather Idolatrous superstition , and vngodlines to the Prince of darknesse , and to Antichrist . For these things that I haue recited , being in your publique service booke , cannot be proved by the word of God , which is the Cannon & rule of holines , by which the visible church of God , should direct her selfe .

Philip ,

It is nothing yet you haue sayd ; for the Church is holy by her faith , for Christ hath promised , that her faith shall not faile : and she hath the spirit to lead her into all truth , and Christ prayed that Peters faith should not faile . Therefore the Church of Rome is holy in faith , for that was Peters Bishopricke , and the promise belongeth to the Church of Rome , and the posterity thereof after him , to the end of the world .

George ,

fain you would proue your Church of Rome , a true Chuch by this marke of holines , and her holines by her faith : But alas you cannot . Christs promise indeede is certaine , and doth not faile any of the elect ; for their faith shall never faile , nor the Gates of hell shall never prevaile against it . This promise was made to Peter ; but you must consider that it was made to him , as he was one of the elect of God : and a faithful Disciple of his Lord and Master , and the effect of it was , that his faith in that his Lord and Master Iesus Christ , should never vtterly faile , how-soever he might slip and fall . And hee prayed for Peter , as he prayed for every faithfull man , whose faith doth not faile , but is the hand and instrument of their salvation . Thus you may see , what errors and absurdities your Church doth runne into , by not holding a distinction , betweene men as they are of the visible , and as they are of the invisible Church . And for as much as your Church doth bragg , as other heretickes doe , of the promise of the spirit : let me tell you that the spirit , is alwayes joyned with the Word ; for these are inseparable . Marke what the Prophet Esay saith of the new covenant , in these words : And I will make this my covenant with them saith the Lord , my spirit that is vpon thee , and my words which I haue put in thy mouth : shall not depart out of thy mouth , nor out of the mouth of thy seede , nor out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede , saith the Lord : from hence forth even for ever . The word and spirit cannot bee disioyned , without fearefull sacriledge : therefore our Saviour Christ saith , when the comforter is come , meaning the spirit of truth , he shall leade you into all truth : and he shall bring all things to your remembrance which I haue told you . And he saith to the Apostles , in Saint Mathew by commandement , teaching them to obserue all things , Iath . 28.20 . whatsoever I haue commaunded you . And to this , hee promises his presence , loe I am with you alway to the end of the world . So that you see that the spirit doth leade the Church into the truth of Christ , and bringeth it to their remembrance ; and the Apostles must teach nothing , but that which Christ commaunded them . And therefore the Church of Rome doth wickedly , to teach for doctrine , any thing which cannot be proved by the Word of Christ : and therefore by this marke of holines , she is no true holy Church of Christ ; because severall Articles of her faith , haue no ground in the scriptures , which is the holy Word of faith .

Philip ,

Are you able to proue that the Church of Rome , cannot proue all her articles of faith by scriptures ?

George ,

Yea that I can , first she can never proue it lawfull for the word and scriptures of God , and the publike worship and service of the Church , to bee in an vnknowne tongue : but wee can proue the scriptures condemne it . Secondly , you cannot proue that the Pope and Church , can take away from the Laitie , the Cup and Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ . Thirdly , they cannot proue their religious worship of Images . Fourthly , they cannot proue , that Peter was Bishop of Rome , and that Linus , Cletus and Clement were his successors there . These points there is not so much as a seeming shew in scripture to proue them : many other Articles of their faith , they endevour to proue by scripture , which are controverted betweene them and vs , but the cannot . The Church of Rome proclaimes to the World , that shee is the pillar and ground of truth : I would to God , she were as she professeth her selfe to be : Then would she vphold the truth , but she rather vpholdeth , and spreadeth her owne deceitfull Doctrine , then the truth of God . Oh that she were as Paul was , pure from the bloud of all men : then she should doe as Paul did ; keepe nothing backe , but shew the whole Councell of God to the people . ●ct . 20.26.28 But she is , I dare be bold to speake it , guilty of the bloud of many millions of Christian soules , by keeping backe and concealing , the counsells of God from the people . And besides what Minister soever doth keepe backe nothing of the counsells of God from the people , but doth labour to teach them the whole will of God revealed in the scriptures , so farre forth as God in mercy , hath inlightened him ; and what people soever , doe spend their liues and conversations according to Gods holy counsells and will to them taught ; shal be sure ( if they come within the reach of the vsurping jurisdiction of your Pope , and Church of Rome : ) to endure the heauie templation of Fagot and Fire , as from the greatest adversary , that Sathan hath raised in the World , against Gods holy truth , and the holy professors thereof in the visible Church , and that vnder the hypocriticall name of the holy Mother Church . Without holines it is imposible to see God , as the scripture saith . None must come nigh vnto God that is not holy : none shall possesse the eternall habitation of holines in the heavens , but those that haue the beginnings of holines heere on earth : therefore the Lord hath set downe such rules and lawes of holines in the holy scriptures , as will make men holy in his sight ; if they in their course of life , take heede there-vnto . Now the Church of Rome , enjoynes to be observed by her Children , such lawes and things as the scriptures never sanctified nor made holy for his religious service . These are the things which your Church calleth holy , as holy Images , holy Crucifixes , holy Beads , holy Water , holy P●xe : and in Baptisme they add holy Oyle , holy Creame , holy Salt , holy Spittle : and their Pilgrimages , which be meerly superstitious , as to the Lady Loreto , the Lady Walsingham , and multitudes of things they cause you to doe , which you are perswaded in your ignorance , that you are the holyer by them . Alas poore soules ! Oh that you had hearts to beleeue what Christ hath said in these words ! The words that I preach , shall Iudge you at the latter day . He preached by Moses and the Prophets , he preached by his owne Person , and by his Apostles , and none of them did shew any holines in such ridiculous and childish toyes , but rather condemne them : and hee will one day call you to account for them , as is expressed in the holy scripture , in these words , who required those things at your hands ? It is not your holy Father the Pope , nor you holy Mother the Church of Rome , will beare you out in that great day of reckoning : for to you shall then be said , I gaue you the light of my Gospell which was glorious ; but ye loved rather the Egyptian darknes of Rome : It wil be then said , I gaue you my word , to be a lanthorne to your feete , and a light vnto your paths : but you walked ignorantly , by an ●mplicit faith in darknes , taught you by the Church of Rome . Your consciences doe now lye asleepe , in a dead securitie in the lappe of the Church of Rome , as mastife Doggs , chained in their kennells : But in the last day , at the great account , they wil be wakned and torment you , accuse , witnes , and condemne you before the great Iudge Christ ; for contemning his Word of truth , which is able to saue your soules , and to make you perfect in the wayes of holines . This word of truth , is truely reade and preached heare in this Island of ours , by Pastors lawfully sent , as I haue formerly proved : which I would haue you and all others , as you tender your owne eternall good both of soule a body , seriously to consider : and thus I haue made an end of your marke of holines of the visible Church .

Philip ,

Well , I haue given you the hearing all this while , but let vs proceede to another marke .

George

It is to little purpose , to be large in other markes ; seeing without soundnes of Doctrine , all your markes , doe not discover a true pure Church without it : and therefore for other markes , I will now but as it were touch them . And as for antiquitie , one of your markes I haue shewed already : that ours , is as ancient as yours , if not before it in antiquity , but for foundnes of doctrine ; it is before it in antiquity as the ancient recordes of the scriptures doe testifye , and I haue proved vnto you .

And as I haue shewed vnto you , that faith and doctrine is essentiall to the visible Church , for it is the forme and lifeblood of the Church ; so let mee ( as I thinke ) explaine it to you by a fit similitude . A man of a Noble family in our kingdome , very anciently descended , and truely honourable by descent in blood ; If hee wickedly commite treachery against our King and his royall issue , or against the state ; Is not his blood of honour , both for himselfe , and his posterity tainted , and quite extinguished by his great disloyaltie ? Even by the lawes of our kingdome , he cannot now in any case pleade his prerogatiues of honour ; neither can his issue , vnlesse the King restore them . Let vs apply this similitude ; our Church whilst it remained with your Church of Rome , and held communion with her , was a long time polluted in her bloud : The forme , faith , and life of her , was so corrupted by consenting to the disloyall treachery against God , and his Sonne Christ and all his Children ; that had not our most gracious God , restored her to her ancient Nobilitie and honour , by making her through his grace , ashamed of her Idolatry and superstition , and false-worship , which she treacherously practised with the Church of Rome : Iere 6 15. and also caused her to stand in the wayes , as the Prophet Ieremy exhorted the Iewes to aske after the old and ancient wayes of the Lord , which is the good way , from which with the Church of Rome , shee had a long time gone astray , she had still remained Ignoble and dishonourable . It had beene vaine , and to no purpose , to pleade her ancient Nobility of an ancient Church , considering whilst shee remained with you , shee was polluted in her life-bloud , by treacherous Idolatry and superstition : but now , Ier . 6.16 . by Gods free mercy and favour , she hath obeyed his voyce and command by the ministry of the Prophet Ieremy . For shee hath stood in the wayes , and asked for the old way , which is the good way , and found it : and she teacheth her Children to walke therein , that they might finde rest vnto their soules . So that the ancient Church of God now liveth in her , and all other parts of the visible Church , in whom the Lord hath restored the pure life of faith and doctrine : so that now wee may iustly stand vpon our Noble and honourable antiquity , as a prorogatiue which cannot iustly be gainsayed .

And now for the Church of Rome , we confesse that she was an ancient , honourable , and Noble Church of Christ ; but her case is altred , for she hath lost the best part of her Nobility , and antiquity , and that by meere treachery both against Christ and his Church : her ancient Noble-bloud of found doctrine , is stained with novelty and heresie many wayes , as hath beene abundantly proved vnto her by many of our learned Divines . But as the Prophet Ieremy said of the Iewes Church ; they were not ashamed : So may we say of Rome , that she is not ashamed of her abominations , Iere . 6.15.16 . although she hath beene never so lovingly exhorted by the Lord ; and that by the ministry of his servants in these latter times . The old and ancient wayes of the Lord , which is the good way , is contemned , her owne wayes newly devised by her selfe imbraced , and of her Children obeyed : And therefore I must needs conclude , that she is yet defiled in her bloud , by hereticall novelty ; and therefore in vaine for her to plead for her proofe to bee a true Church by her marke of antiquity .

And for your marke of multitude , it is strange it should bee counted a marke of a visible Church ; whereas it is rather a marke of the wicked routes of the Devill : For so the Heathens might haue opposed sometime against the Church and said , we haue all Nations but one , and in that one Nation all families against one or two : Gene . 6. as in the time of Noe , they that are called men of renowne , & intituled the sonnes of God , mocked both Noe , and his Religion . And likewise when the Lord made choise of Abrahams family , and placed them in the land of Canaan ; 1 King . 12. tenne tribes against Iuda , and in Iuda and Israel , the Idolaters more in number then the godly : for Elias complained , he was left alone : against one good Prophet , namely Michea , there stood vp foure hundred false . And the Prophet Ieremiah cryes , 1. King 22. Ier . 4.9 . that all the people is deceived , even their Kings , their Priests , and their Prophets : and what saith the Prophet Esay ; Esa . 53.1 . Who will beleeue our report ? And to whom is the arme of the Lord revealed ? And God saith in Exodus : Thou shalt not follow a multitude to doe evill . Exod . 23.2 . And what saith our Saviour ? Wide is the gate that leadeth to destruction , and many there be that goe in thereat . Math . 7 13. Luke 12.32 . And againe our Saviour saith ; Feare not little flocke , it is your Fathers will to giue you the Kingdome . And thus you see , that the smallest number is rather a marke of Gods Church , then the greatest .

And for your marke of Revelations , or Visions , or Prophesies , which are a kinde of myracles : and therefore I will be breife in them altogether . I will alledge a plaine text to confute them , that they shall not stand as markes of the true Church of God , I pray you giue good heed to this text I shall alledge , for it overthroweth all the myracles and prophesies your Church doth so much brag of , to the deceiuing of the simple : the words are these . If there shal arise saith the Lord , in the midst of thee , a Prophet , or a Dreamer of dreames , and the signe or wonder , which hee hath told thee come to passe , whereof he spake vnto thee , saying let vs goe after other Go●● , &c. Deut 13. Thou shalt not hearken to the words of that Prophet . So that admit the church of Rome should performe some miraculous signe or wonder to confirme some false Doctrine of hers , and that the myracle were true in effect : yet the end of this myracle being false , which is ●o draw men to the service of false Gods , or the true God in a f●lse worship : we must not heare the false Prophet , nor obey his Doctrine , but we must try the doctrine by the touch stone of the Scriptures , as you haue formerly heard . S. Paul saith , that they that haue gifts of Prophesie , must prophesie according to the analogie , or proportion of faith : And therefore must be tryed by it , as S. Iohn saith : try the spirits , whether they be of God or not . And if you will see what Paul saith in the Thessa : for there he saith , that Antichrist shall come , Rom. 12. ● even by the effectuall working of Sathan , with all power , and signes , ● Thessa . and lying wonders . And this place I would haue you , and all private Christians well to consider ; as you tender your owne woe & misery , or your owne blisse and happines for ever . For if the Pope be Antichrist , as I take it to be most certaine that hee is , whose comming is not onely with lying signes , and wonders , but also in all deceivablenes of vnrighteousnes ; then must your e●●●te needes ●e most dangerous and lamentable : For , to whom doth h●● 〈◇〉 Even among them that perish . And why do they perish ? ●he ●●son is , because they received not the loue of the truth that t●●● 〈◇〉 bee saved . See the Iudgement of God vpon t●em 〈…〉 beleeue the truth : For it is said , V●●●e 11. Therefore God s●all 〈…〉 ●lusions , that they should beleeue lyes . O fearefu●● 〈…〉 is , that all they might be damned which beleeue no● 〈…〉 : But had pleasure in vnrighteousnes . What Chris●●●● 〈…〉 reading this place , being truely touched with ●p●r●tuall comiser●tion , that doth not from his soule , commiserate and pitty the fearefull estate of those of your religion that liue in this our Church , where the truth of God , and of Christ Iesus our Lord , is so powerfully , so purely , & so sincerely taught . And yet haue pleasure in a deceitfull and an vnrighteous Doctrine taught them , by that man of Sinne : and such as are deceitfully sent from him . I doe now purpose to conclude our conference at this time , but I cannot breake off , without a friendly and Christian like exhortation ; and could wish that my head & heart were a fountain of teares for you all , that I might truely weepe for your misery that will come vpon you except ye repent , and forsake the false Doctrine taught you by the Church of Rome . I doe therefore as a private Christian Brother , exhort you Seniour Philip , and all other that are estranged from the truth , to be reconciled vnto God , and expresse your reconciliation to the World , by your frequenting the schooles of the truth , that the essence of truth Christ Iesus hath directed here , for it is that truth that is able to saue your soules . But if you will not receiue the loue of Gods truth , and forsake deceitfull and vnrighteous doctrines . Then your case is dangerous , & much more dangerous then those of your religion , that haue not lived vnder the cleare light of Gods truth as you haue done . In the meane time , I will not giue over , to pray vnto the God of truth , that you may come to the saving knowledge of truth , that you may be saved and liue blessedly for ever .

Phi .

Well , I like wel your mind , if it were guided by the truth , which it cannot be , except you were reconciled to the church of truth , which is the Church of Rome .

George ,

Your Church of Rome is not a Church of truth , as hath bene largely proved , by our Divines in their Sermons and writings , and my selfe in a weake measure in our conference of the Church visible haue shewed vnto you .

Philip ,

Haue you any more to say of the visible Church ?

George ,

Surely I haue done at this time , what I meant to say of the visible Church ; and I pray God it may profit you and other poore simple seduced soules , who are ignorant what the church is , and whereof it doth consist . It now remaineth that we should conferre of the faith of the visible church , but I told you at the first beginning of our conference , that the discourse concerning the faith of the visible church would be some-what large : and sure Seig : Philip , I doe not know whether I shall liue to haue conferrence with you about it : for the faith of the church is , as health & life to the body ; and they that should confer with you about it , had need to be very judicious to edifie you in it . I haue hitherto but a little touched the life of the visible church , and I doe desire with my heart , that some wise judicious private Christian , would privately confer with you about the health & life of the visible church ; we in our conference of the visible church , haue but as it were surveyed the outward parts of the church . That which followeth to be treated of , is the very anatomizing of the visible church , by searching into the spirit and life of the visible church : & he that should confer with you , had neede to be well read in the Doctrine of the pure Orthodoxall church , and also of the Doctrine of those two parts of the visible Church , which we haue hitherto treated of , I meane the church of Rome , and the Church of great Brittain , he had neede to be no Novice in the singular Art of divine Theologie , that he might be wise , to discover the diseases and sicknesses of both these two parts of the Church , and be wise also to shew their care in this : I confesse that my Iudgement is too weake . I want both Arts and Learning , and the gift of tongues : but yet I could finde in my heart , to draw out a plot and referre the building to them that are wiser , if any judicious private Christian of our religion will vnder-take it .

Philip ,

Come on then I pray you , let me see your plot , and I will shew you how I like it .

George ,

I haue in our conference of the visible Church , shewed that Christ Iesus being perfect man , is every where in the scripture called our Lord , and that he is the Lord , both of heaven & earth , and that it is essentiall to the visible church , so to confesse and acknowledge him . Now in this , I would aske your Iudgement , whether that part of the visible , church which doe by their Doctrine most purely preach to the world , the Soveraignty of his Lord ship , and do giue vnto him , all his dignities and prerogatiues royall , both in heaven and earth : be the safest Church for a private man to joyne with , and submit himselfe vnto for the guide of his soule and body vnto everlasting life ?

Philip ,

I answer , it is the safest to submit vnto , and that is the Church of Rome .

Geo .

Again , I aske your Iudgement , whether the Church be the safest to joyne with , that doth most purely preach faith in his name ?

Philip ,

I say it is the safest , and that also the Church of Rome .

George .

Againe , I aske you whereas Paul saith , there is one Lord , one Faith , one Baptisme . Which baptisme is the ministeriall Instrument , which the visible Church doth vse to initiate and knit men vnto Christ , and his misticall body : whether that Church which teacheth most purely , the Doctrine of sacramentall vnion with Christ by baptisme be your safest course to joyne with ?

Philip ,

I say it is the safest , and that also is the Church of Rome .

Geo .

I will aske you three questions of another sort , the first is , that whereas all things must be done to the glory of God ; whether the Church be the safest to joyne with , & submit vnto , that doth most glorifie God by her doctrine ?

Philip ,

I say it is the safest , which is the Church of Rome .

Geo .

The 2. question of this sort , is that , whereas that none but those which are humble , are fitt for grace ; therefore is not that Church the safest to submitte vnto , that doth by her doctrine , throw men down in the sight of their misery , by sin , both originall , & actual ?

Philip ,

I say it is the safest , which is the Church of Rome .

George ,

A third question of the second sort , whether the church , when a sinfull man is humbled in the sight of his misery by sinne , is the safest to joyne with , that by her Doctrine doth ministerially best restore , and lift him vp to a state of grace ?

Philip ,

This also is the safest , and that is the Church of Rome .

George ,

There are foure questions more to aske you , but I will include them all in one : There are foure grounds of religion , as first , the Creede , the second , the Lords prayer , the third , the Sacraments , the fourth and last the ten Commandements . And is that the safest Church that te●cheth these foure grounds most purely ?

Philip ,

Yes no question , and that is also the Church of Rome .

George ,

These points I thought good , to lay as a ground for a further dispute , concerning the faith and life of a Church visible , the Doctrines of these points taught by the Church of England , being compared , it will be found , that the Church of England is the safest to joyne with in Gods service vnto salvation .

FINIS .