The pack-mans pater noster, or a dialogue betwixt a chapman and a priest. Newlie translated out of Dutch, by SIS.

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A CONFERENCE Betweene a Pedler and a Priest . OR The Packe-mans Pater Noster , That hee learn'd in a Closter : Whereof hee sore repented , And prayes it may bee prented . Not fitting for the Schooles , Yet Schoole-master of Fooles . A POLLANDS PEDLER went vpon a day , Vnto his Parish Priest , to learne to pray . The Priest sayd ; Packe-man , thou must hant the Closter , To learne the Ave , and the Pater noster . Packe-man . NOW , good Sir Priest , saide hée , what talke is that ? I heare you speake ; but GOD in Heaven knowes what . Priest . It is , sayde hee , that holie Latine Letter , That pleaseth God well , and our Ladie better . Packe-man . Alace , Sir Iohn , I 'll never vnderstand them : So I must leaue your Prayers , as a fand them . Priest . Tush , tush , sayes hee , if thou list for to liere , Within a month I shall make thee parquiere . Packe-man . Parquiere , sayde hée , that will bée but in saying ; In words , not sense ; a pratling , not a praying . Shall I ( Sir Iohn ) a man of perfect age , Pray lyke an ydle Parret in a Cage ? Priest . A Parret can but prattle for her part , But toward God hath neither head nor heart . Packe-man . And séeing I haue head and heart to pray , Should not mine heart know what my tongue doth say ? For when my tongue talks , if mine heart miscarie . Howe quicklie may I marre your Ave Marie ? And I ( Sir ) having manie things to séeke , How shall I speede , not knowing what I speake ? Priest . Because that GOD all Tongues doth vnderstand , Yea , knowes thy verie thoughts before the hand . Packe-man . Then if I thinke one thing , and speake another , I will both crabb Christ , and our Ladie His Mother . For when I pray for making vp my Packe , man , Your Ave Marie is not worth a Placke , man . Priest . Thy Latine Prayers are but generall heades , Contayning everie speciall that thou needes : The Latine serues vs for a Liturgie , As Medciners direct the Chirurgie . And in this language Messe is sayde and sung . For private thinges pray in thy mother tongue . Packe-man . Then must I haue a tongue ( Sir Iohn ) for eyther ; One for the Mother , another for the Father . Priest . Thinkst thou the Mother doth not know such small things ? Christ is her Sonne , man , and Hee telles her all things . Packe-man . But ( good Sir Iohn ) where learn'd our Ladie her Latines ? For in her dayes were neither Messe nor Matines : Nor yet one Priest that Latine then did speake : For holie words were then all Hebrew and Greeke . Shée never was at Rome , nor kist Popes féete : How came shée by the Messe , then , would I wit ? Priest . Packe-man , if thou belieue the Legendarie , The Messe is elder farre than Christ or Marie : For all the Patriarks , both more and lesse , And great Melchisedec himselfe sayde Messe . Packe-man . But ( good Sir Iohn ) spake all these Fathers Latine ? And sayde they Messe in Surplices and Satine ? Could they speake Latine long yet Latine grew ? And without Latine no Messe can bée true . And as for Heretickes that now translate it . False Miscreants ; they shame the Messe , and state it . Priest . Well ( Packe-man ) fayth thou art too curious ; Thy spur-blinde zeale ; fervent , but furious . I rather teach a whole Coven of Monkes ; Than such a Packe-man , with his Puritane spunkes . This thou must know , that cannot bee denyed , Rome rang over all when Christ was crucifyed : Rome Ethnicke then : but afterwardes converted , And grew so honest , and so holie hearted : That now her Emprour is turn'd in our Pope , His Holinesse ; as you haue heard , I hope . Hee made a law , that all the world should pray , In Latine language to the Lord each day : Therefore of this thou mayst bee sure and sickar , The Pope of Rome is now made Christs full Vicar . Packe-man . Surelie this purpose puts mée farre abacke , And hath moe Poyntes than Pinnes in all my Packe : What ever power you giue to your Pope , Hée may not make a man an Ape , I hope . And if hee bee full Vicar to our LORD , Should not his words and CHRISTS keepe one accord ? Priest . Doubtlesse they doe : and never are contrarie , In PATER NOSTER , CREED , nor AVE MARIE . Packe-man . But Christs Disciples , when they made their motion To Christ their Master , how to make devotion , As I haue done to you , Sir Iohn , to day , I pray you , in what Tongue bade Hee them pray ? Christ did not one word Latine to them speake : Their talke was all in Syriacke , Hebrew , Greeke . Hee bade all Nations pray after one manner ; But bade not all take Latine for their Banner . Your Latine is but one of the Translations : Why should it then exclude all other Nations ? ¶ And , on my Soule , Sir Iohn , if I but say , In mine owne Mother-tongue , when I doe pray , Lord , helpe mee ; Lord , forgiue mee all my Sinnes : Yea , why not , Lord , increase my Packe and Pinnes ? And everie thing where-of I stand in neede : For this dependes vpon Our Daylie Bread . I hope in GOD , that Hee shall as soone heare mee , As all the Latine Prayers you can leare mee . And since some Tongues haue more Antiquitie Than Latine , were it not iniquitie To force all People to pray lyke the Pope ? No , good Sir Iohn , you 'll not say that , I hope . Priest . But , Packe-man , one poynt would I faine make playne : Let vs come backe , vnto our Ladie agayne . And if thou hadst as much capacitie , As roaving wit , with great audacitie , The case is cleare , that Virgine Marie meeke , Shee could all Languages perfectlie speake . Hast thou not heard , man , how the holie Ghost Came downe lyke cloven tongues at Pentecost ? And fill'd the house where all the twelue were readie : And one tongue truelie lighted on our Ladie . And lest thou thinke I talke of ydle Themes , Consult the reverend Iesuites of Vpon Act. 2. 4. Rhemes . And this I pray thee , Packe-man , earnestlie note . Packe-man . In fayth , Sir Iohn , it is not worth a Groate . Will I belieue't , thinke yee , because they say it ? Priest . No : but they proue 't , as no man can denay it . Sayth not the Text , that when the Lord ascended , Act. 1. 4 Vnto the twelue Hee earnestlie recommended , That from Ierusalem they should not goe , Vntill the Comforter should come ? And so , Into an vpper roome they went together , Where Act. 1. 12. 13. 14. Marie still was one , yee must consider . With manie moe , in number full Vers . 15. sixe score , That with the twelue did daylie GOD adore . And then hee sayth , When Act. 2. 1 Pentecost was come , They were together in one place , all , and some . And Vers . 4. ( All ) were filled with the Holie Ghost . Packe-man . O , good Sir Iohn , yee count without your Host . Now see I well , your Iesuiticall tongues Haue cloven the Text , even to the verie lungues . That Act. 1. 15 ( All ) which first was spoken of sixe score , Act. ● . ● . Is heere meant of the onelie twelue , no more . Nor Marie is not named now , as then . What neede wee then belieue it , Holie man ? On with your Spectacles ( Sir Iohn ) and reade , And credite this , as a point of your Creede . The Holie Ghost could fall vpon no more , Than hee was promised vnto before . Doubtlesse hee tooke not a blinde-folded flight , Lyke syled Larkes , not knowing where to light . Now , hee was promisde Act. ● . ● . onelie to the twelue . Looke on the Text ( Sir Iohn ) and judge your selue . Speake man , and bee not silent : I am sorie , To see you ignorant of such a Storie . ¶ And as the stories in themselues are divers , Flowing and falling into sundrie Rivers : In divers Chapters To wit , the first and second Chapters . so they stand divided , So that the case may clearelie bée decided . For when those sixe score were at first conveaned , There was another mysterie then meaned : To wit , Matthias frée election . And so Sainct Peter gaue direction , That ( All ) the sixe score there should beare record Of their procéedings then before the Lord . The choosing of a Pastor was in hand : Which without the Churches knowledge cannot stand . And so Matthias through the power of Heaven , By Act. 1. 26. lot was helde as one of the eleven . Then sayes the Text : And 2. 1. All these were still together . What ( All ) these were , let anie man consider . The twelue , say I , in the last verse before : And not make leape-yeare of eleven verse more , To draw ( All ) backe to those hundreth and twentie . Indéede this way wee should haue tongues in plentie . And as they differ by twelue verse or lynes , So are they ten dayes different in tymes . The first , vpon the day that Christ ascended , The other , when the Holie Ghost descended . Such glazen Arguments will byde none Hammer : For they are but ill Logicke , and worse Grammer . So onelie twelue reciev'd the Holy Ghost . And so our Ladie all her tongues hath lost . ¶ Now for the Holie Ghost , Sir Iohn , yée know , His comming downe is tyed to no law : Some tymes invisible , and some tymes séene . As diverslie at divers tymes hath béene . His comming néedes but to bée séene of few . His works may serue for witnesses anew . And so Saint Paul himselfe this gift hée fand , But privatelie by Ananias hand . ¶ And so ( Sir Iohn ) to show you all my Packe , And let you see my breast as well as backe : I wonder yee consider not the Ende , Why God the Holie Ghost , in Tongues did sende . Know yée not , Tongues were onelie given for teaching ? Know yée not , Women are forbidden preaching ? Yea , scarce at home haue libertie of spéech ; But aske their husbands , and they for to teach . Since Women then in Gods word may not walke , What should they doe with Tongues that may not talke ? ¶ And then ( Sir Iohn ) what worship doe yée win Vnto our Ladie , when yée bring her in , Iacke-fellow-lyke with other whole sixe score , Who got the Holie Ghost , and shée no more ? And where the Pope hath made her Queene of Heaven , Yée make her but lyke one of the eleven . Surelie ( Sir Iohn ) this is an ill fav'rd fitching ; Yee thrust her from the Hall downe to the Kitching . ¶ And this is also one of the rare Themes , Helde by your reverend Iesuites of Rhemes : On 1. Cor . 14. That Latine came not with the Holie Ghost , When the cloven tongues came at the Pentecost . Now , if it came not by the Holie Ghost , How got it all this holinesse in haste , That in it onelie , and none other Tongue , Both Messe and Matines should bee sayde and sung ? Your last refuge will bee vnto the Pope ; So knit vp all together in one Rope . ¶ Then , good Sir Iohn , consider but a litle , How yee giue vnto Marie manie a title : Whereof yee haue no warrant in the Word ; And yet pursue vs both with fire and sword , As Heretickes , for not doing as yee-doe : Yet what the Word bids , and no more , that wee-doe . Thinke yee that anie man can bee so mad , As to holde Christ , his Saviour ; and so bad . As to holde Marie for his Saviours Mother , And not to loue that woman boue all other ? Wee loue her then , tho wee belieue not in her ; Nor by Will-worship thinke wee for to win her . Wee holde her blessed , for Christs Flesh conceiving , But farre more blessed , for Christs Fayth receiving : Shee is His Mother ; and the Church , His Wyfe ; Which was to Him much dearer than His Lyfe . So if the one could fall out with the other , Hee would respect His Wyfe , more than His Mother . For this is everie Spouses carriage ; But moste , in this Spirituall Marriage . And as shee 's Mother of His humane lyfe , Shee 's but a Daughter of His Heavenlie Wyfe . And by this Mother , member of Christs Bodie . Who thinkes not so , is but a verie Noddie . All this ( Sir Iohn ) I doe but briefelie say ; To let you see , that yee play vs foule play . Priest . Well Packe-man , tho thou beare about that Trunke , I feare thou bee but some forlopen Monke , Of Luthers lore , or crooked Calvines Crew ; And sent abroade , such businesse to brew : Transformed in the person of some Pedler . Packe-man . No , good Sir Iohn , in fayth I am no medler , Nor haue I mynde nor meanes so high to mount : I can but reade a little , and lay a Count . And seeke my meate through manie an vncouth Maison : I know not what yee call your Kyrie-laison . So helpe mee God , Sir Iohn , I know no better , Nor in your Latine can I reade one letter . I but belieue in God : and sometyme say , Christ helpe mee , when I wander out the way . And so , what ever I haue , what ever I want , I neither pray to Hee , nor to Shee Sainct . ¶ And as for Tongues , I haue but one , no more : And wit yee well , albeit I had ten score , I would vse all conforme to Paules commanding : Pray with my tongue , pray with mine vnderstanding . Thinke ye those twelue , when they receiv'd these tongues , Did talke like Parrets , or like barrell bungues : Yeelding a sound , not knowing what they sayde ? Ydle in preaching , ydler when they prayde . No , each of them knew well what hee did say : And why not wee , Sir Iohn , as well as they ? For since all men haue one tongue at command , Should wee seeke tongues wee doe not vnderstand ? Alas , Sir Iohn , had I beene trayn'd at Schoole , As I am but a simple ignorant foole , An hundreth Questions more I might haue moved , But heere I cease , fearing to bee reproved : For these few doubts I learn'd in divers places , Thinking , yee Clergie-men would cleare all cases . Priest . Now , Packe-man , I confesse thou puts mee to it : But one thing I will tell thee , if thou 'lt doe it : Thou shalt come to our holie Pryor , Packe-man , And hee perhaps will buy all on thy backe , man : And teach thee better how to pray than anie , For such an holie man there are not manie . Bee here to morne , just betweene sixe and seaven , And thou wilt finde thy selfe halfe way to Heaven . Packe-man . Content , said hee , but there is some-thing more , I must haue your opinion in before : In-case the holie Pryor haue no leasure , To speake of everie purpose at our pleasure , There was but one tongue at the birth of Abel , And manie at the building vp of Babel : A wicked worke , which God would haue consounded . But when Christ came , all tongues againe resounded , To build His Church , by His Apostles teaching . Why not in praying , as well as in preaching ? Since praying is the true and full perfection , Of holie service : Saving your correction . So if our Lord to mine owne tongue bee readie , What neede I then with Latine trouble our Ladie ? Or if both in my prayers must bee in , I pray thee tell mee at whom to begin ? And to pray joyntlie to them both as one , Your Latine prayers then are clearelie gone : For PATER NOSTER never will accord With her : nor AVE MARIE with our LORD . If I get him , what neede I seeke another ? Or dare hee doe nothing without his Mother ? And this ( Sir Iohn ) was once in question , Disputed long with deepe digestion ; Whether the Pater Noster should bee sayde , To God , or to our Ladie , when they prayde ? When Master Mare of learn'd diversitie ; Was Rector of our Of Sainct Andrewes . Vniversitie , They sate so long , they cooled all their Kaile , Vntill the Master Cooke heard of the Tale : Who lyke a mad man ranne amongst the Clergie , Crying with manie a Domine me asperge : To giue the Pater Noster to the Father , And to our Ladie giue the Avies rather . And lyke a Welsh-man swore by great Sainct Davies , Shee might content her well with Creedes and Avies . And so the Clergie fearing more confusion , Were all contented with the Cookes Conclusion . Priest . Packe-man , this Tale is coyned of the new . Packe-man . Sir Iohn , I 'll quite the Packe , if 't bee not true . ¶ Againe , Sir Iohn , yee learned Monks may reade , How Christ Himselfe taught vs of His owne head : That everie soule that was with sinne opprest , Should come to Him , and Hee would giue them rest . Come all to Mee ( sayth Hee ) not to another . Come all to Mee ( sayth Hee ) not to My Mother . And if I doe all as the Lord commanded , I hope her Ladiship will not withstand it . And so , Sir Iohn , if I should speake in Latine , Vnto the Lord at Even-song , and at Matine , And never vnderstand what I were saying , Thinke yee the Lord would take this for true praying ? No , that yée cannot : for yée may consider , My tongue and heart should pray to God together . ¶ And héerevpon yée shall heare what befell , To certaine Clerkes , that Latine well could spell : With whome by chance I lodged at an Inne ; Where an olde Wyfe vpon a Rocke did spinne . And towardes evening shee fell to , and prayde : But neither they , nor I , knew what shee sayde . One sayde , the Carling counterfets the Canting . Another sayd , It 's but the Matrons manting . Some call'd it Gibbers , others call'd it Clavers . And still the Carling speakes , and spinnes , and slavers . Now , good Sir Iohn ; what thinke yee of this hussie ? Where was her heart , when her hands were so busie ? In ende , one saide , Dame , wot yee what yee say ? No , not , sayeth shee , but well I wot I pray . Yee pray , sayd hee , and wots not what , I grant : Alace , how can yee bee so ignorant ? The Matron musing little at the motion , Sayde , Ignorance is Mother of Devotion Then Dame , sayd hee , if Ignorance bee the Mother , Darkenesse must bee the Daughter , and none other . Prayde yee , sayde hee , when all the time yee span ? What recke of that ? sayth shee , God 's a good Man , And vnderstands all that I say in Latine : And this I doe at Even-song and at Matine . Alace , Sir Iohn , was not this Wyfe abused , Whose soule and senses all were so confused ? You know these vnknowne tongues can profite no man : And one tongue is enough for anie Woman . But when one prayes in true sinceritie , As God commandes , in Sprite and Veritie ; The heart sends vp the Tongue as Messenger , Vnto the Lord a pleasant Passenger . Priest . But , Packe-man , heere 's a prettie little Booke , Where-in if thou wilt listen for to looke ; Set out by a true Catholicke Divine , And out of doubt will settle thine ingine . Fayth , reade it , Packe-man , for it is but little . Printed 1623. The Gadge of the new Gospel , is its Title . Hee clearelie prooues , by Luke , 1. 9. 10. Zacharies exemple , When hee did sacrifice ( Within ) the Temple , And all the people stoode and prayde ( Without ) They knew not then what tongue hee spake , no doubt . Ergo , the Messe may both bee sayde and sung , In other language than in Mother-tongue . Packe-man . Sir Iohn , I see your holie Catholicke , Vpon the Trueth hath put a prettie tricke . Of A●… Haue yee not heard this Proverbe oft tymes sounded , Homo qui male audit , male rotundit ? So if the people heard not what hee sayde , How could they know in what language hee prayde ? Since vnderstanding commeth by the eare , Hee cannot vnderstand that doth not heare . Or how prooues this , that Zacharie the Priest , Spake Latine , then , the language of the Beast ? Were anie Liturgies vnder the Law , But in that tongue that all the Iewes did know ? What ever hee spake , himselfe sure vnderstood it : And so , your Catholicke hath ill concluded : Because a learned Priest may pray in Latine , And mumble over his Even-song , Messe , and Matine . Ergo , a Packe-man to the Lord may pray , And never know a syllabe hee doth say . For when yee put mee to my Pater Noster , I seeke an Egg , and yee giue mee an Oster . And so , Sir Iohn , I haue given you a Wadge , That 's good enough for your Now Gospels Gadge . ¶ Last : since wee say that God is good to speake to , Who will both heare our Text , and heare our eeke to : What if Hee answere mee in Latine tongue ; Where-in I pray , and where-in Messe is sung ? I must say , Lord , I wot not what Thou sayest ; And Hee 'll say , Foole , thou wo●st not what thou prayest . Even , Lord , say I , as good Sir Iohn did teach mee . Sir Iohn , sayth Hee , a Priest vnmeete to preach Mee : Or in your meshant mouthes once for to name Mee ; with different tongues & hearts . Such Iocke such So was the Packe-man named . Iamie . For tho I know moe tongues than yee can tell , False Knaues , should yee not vnderstand your sell ? Gaue I you not a tongue as well as heart , That both to Mee should play an afolde part ? But lyke two double Devils yee haue dissembled . At this Sir Iohn hee quaked , and hee trembled , And sayde , Good Packe-man , thou art so quicke witted , Vnto the Pryor all must bee remitted . ¶ And so the Packe-man past vnto his Lodging , Having with-in his heart great griefe and grudging . Some-tymes hee doubted , if the Monkes were men , Or Monsters : for his lyfe hee could not ken . Hee sayde , Sir Iohn was a faire fat fed Oxe . Some-tyme hee thought hee looked lyke Iohn Knoxe . But Knoxe was better verst into the Byble ; A studie that Sir Iohn helde verie ydle . They diue not deepe into Divinitie , And trouble them little with the Trinitie : And are more learned in the Legendarie , In lyues of Saincts , and of the Ladie Marie . The onelie Idole they embrace and kisse a , Is to proue servants vnto Mistresse Missa . With such conceites the Packe-man past the night , With little sleepe , vntill it was day light . ¶ And by the peepe of day hee earelie rose , And trimd him fynelie in his holie dayes Hose : And to Sir Iohns owne Chamber straight hee went ; Who was attending . So with one assent , They hyed them to the Pryor both in haste ; To whom Sir Iohn began to giue a taste , Of all the Questions that had past amang them . Hee call'd them Heretickes , both , and vowd to hang them . With that the Packe-man hurled throw the Closter , And there hee met with an ill favourd Foster : Who quickelie twind him , and all on his backe : And then hee learnd to pray , Shame fall the packe : For if they haue not fred mee of my sinne , They sende mee lighter out , than I came in . And still hee cryde , Shame fall both Monks and Frayers , For I haue lost my Packe , and learnd no Prayers . So farewell Ave , Creed , and Pater Noster : I 'll pray'n my Mother-tongue , and quyte the Closter . FINIS , QVOD SIS .

printer's device of Edward Raban [not in McKerrow]

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